    [Senate Hearing 116-363]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                             S. Hrg. 116-363

                  S. 2555, A BILL TO DESIGNATE THE NEW RIVER
                    GORGE NATIONAL RIVER IN THE STATE OF
                    WEST VIRGINIA AS THE ``NEW RIVER GORGE
                    NATIONAL PARK AND PRESERVE,'' AND FOR
                    OTHER PURPOSES

    =======================================================================

                                 FIELD HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                         ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                               FEBRUARY 22, 2020

                                   __________

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                           Printed for the use of the
                   Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                  __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    40-909                     WASHINGTON : 2021

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                        LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman
    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
    MIKE LEE, Utah                       MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
    STEVE DAINES, Montana                BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
    BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
    CORY GARDNER, Colorado               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona              ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
    LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee           CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota

                          Brian Hughes, Staff Director
                         Kellie Donnelly, Chief Counsel
    Lucy Murfitt, Deputy Chief Counsel and Deputy Staff Director of Natural
                                   Resources
                Annie Hoefler, Senior Professional Staff Member
                     Renae Black, Democratic Staff Director
                    Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
                    David Brooks, Democratic General Counsel
                   Peter Stahley, Democratic Bevinetto Fellow

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from
      West Virginia..................................................     1
    Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, a U.S. Senator from West Virginia....     3

                                   WITNESSES

    Watts, Lizzie, Superintendent, New River Gorge National River,
      National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior.........    41
    Ruby, Chelsea A., Tourism Commissioner, West Virginia Tourism
      Office, West Virginia Department of Commerce...................    46
    Harman, Jerod, President, West Virginia Wildlife Federation......    50
    Johnson, Richard ``Rick'' A., Owner, River Expeditions...........    52

              ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

    Ackerman, Russell:
        Letter for the Record........................................   101
    Alexander, Donna:
        Letter for the Record........................................   102
    Armstrong, Kelly L.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   103
    Arnold, Dave:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    78
    Ashworth, Amy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   104
    Aspy, Douglas:
        Letter for the Record........................................   105
    Aspy, Ryan:
        Letter for the Record........................................   106
    Aspy, Travis:
        Letter for the Record........................................   107
    Aucremanne, Joe:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    81
    Babiak, Kelly:
        Letter for the Record........................................   108
    Bailey, Darrell:
        Letter for the Record........................................   109
    Ball, Trent:
        Letter for the Record........................................   110
    Bartell, Jack:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   111
    Baughman, Rebecca:
        Letter for the Record........................................   112
    Beeching, Spencer C.:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   113
    Berry, Larry A.:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    70
    Bice, Jeff:
        Letter for the Record........................................   114
    Black, James:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   115
    Blankenship, Roy:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    82
    Bockrath, Logan:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    76
    Bor, Ellen:
        Letter for the Record........................................   116
    Bowe, Erica:
        Letter for the Record........................................   117
    Bower, Jr., Robert:
        Letter for the Record........................................   118
    Boyle, Sara:
        Letter for the Record........................................   119
    Breeden, Kelly:
        Letter for the Record........................................   120
    Breuer, Paul:
        Letter for the Record........................................   121
    Brouse, Joe:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    68
    Brown, Stephen M.:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   122
    Burgin, Linda:
        Letter for the Record........................................   123
    Burnette, Dr. Greg:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    84
    Butler, Charles ``Buddy'':
        Letter for the Record........................................   124
    Campbell, Jim:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    65
    Campbell, Thomas:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    69
    Canterbury, Steven:
        Letter for the Record........................................   125
    Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore:
        Opening Statement............................................     3
    Carpenter, Robert:
        Letter for the Record........................................   126
    Case, Larry:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    77
    Casper, John:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   127
    Casto, Agnes:
        Letter for the Record........................................   128
    Cavallo, Loria:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   131
    Chennault, Michael:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    80
    Cheuvront, Andrea:
        Letter for the Record........................................   132
    City of Beckley (WV):
        Letter for the Record........................................     5
    City of Hinton (WV):
        Resolution for the Record....................................     6
    City of Summersville (WV):
        Resolution for the Record....................................     8
    Coleman, Glenn:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    66
    Colgrove, Patricia K.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   133
    Cowdrick, William:
        Letter for the Record........................................   134
    Crockett, John N.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   135
    Cruikshank, Sharon:
        Letter for the Record........................................    10
        Statement for the Record.....................................    90
    Dorshimer, Bryan:
        Letter for the Record........................................   136
    Dresch, Michael:
        Letter for the Record........................................   137
    Dwyer, Jeannine:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   138
    Earehart, Charles Thomas:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    83
    Ellis, Damon L.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   139
    Fairman, Lindsay:
        Letter for the Record........................................   140
    Fallin, Frank and Pamela:
        Letter for the Record........................................   141
    Fayette County (WV) Chamber of Commerce:
        Resolution for the Record....................................    11
    Fayette County (WV) Commission:
        Letter for the Record........................................    13
        Resolution for the Record....................................    14
    Feeley, Karen:
        Letter for the Record........................................   142
    Fleischman, Alice:
        Letter for the Record........................................   143
    Floyd, Cheryl C.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   144
    Floyd, Jennifer:
        Letter for the Record........................................   145
    Force, Patricia:
        Letter for the Record........................................   146
    Forren, Judith and Ronald:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   147
    Foster, Allen:
        Letter for the Record........................................   148
    Fraleigh, Leah:
        Letter for the Record........................................   149
    Gabel, Bob:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   150
    Gabel, Jeff:
        Letter for the Record........................................   151
    Garton, Jeannine:
        Letter for the Record........................................   152
    Garvin, Mary:
        Letter for the Record........................................   153
    Gerencer, Tom:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    75
        Letter for the Record........................................   154
    Gilbert, Zac:
        Letter for the Record........................................   156
    Giles County (VA) Board of Supervisors:
        Resolution for the Record....................................    15
    Giles, Terri:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    89
    Gill, Chris:
        Comment for the Record.......................................    79
    Gilliam, Luke:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    71
    Gilpin, MSgt Earl Roy:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   157
    Goings, Leslie:
        Letter for the Record........................................   158
    Gonano, Max:
        Letter for the Record........................................   159
    Goodwillie, Kay:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   160
    Graham, Aaron:
        Letter for the Record........................................   161
    Graham, Michael:
        Letter for the Record........................................   162
    Graham, Pamela:
        Letter for the Record........................................   163
    Grant-Hart, Kristy:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    89
    Grayson, Jenna:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    74
    Hager, Heather:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   164
    Hamel, Courtney:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   165
    Harman, Jerod:
        Opening Statement............................................    50
        Written Testimony............................................    51
    Hayes, Christopher Ian:
        Letter for the Record........................................   166
    Heinl, Andy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   167
    Herderick, Dr. Edward D.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   168
    Heywood, Thomas A.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   169
    Hill, Jay:
        Letter for the Record........................................   170
    Holliday, Matt:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   171
    Holmes, Rebecca:
        Letter for the Record........................................   172
    Hopkins, Stephanie:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   173
    Howells, Brenda:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    67
    Hubbert, Hollie:
        Letter for the Record........................................   174
    Jarrell, Brad:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    86
    Johnson, Heather:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    70
    Johnson, Richard ``Rick'' A.:
        Letter for the Record........................................    18
        Opening Statement............................................    52
        Written Testimony............................................    54
    Kanhofer, Brian:
        Letter for the Record........................................   175
    Kauff, John:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    85
    Keller, Jennifer:
        Letter for the Record........................................   176
    Kelly, Gary and Chasity:
        Letter for the Record........................................   177
    Kern, Mary Agnes:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   178
    King, Mathias Noble:
        Letter for the Record........................................   179
    Kissko, Brenda:
        Letter for the Record........................................   180
    Kistler, Maura:
        Letter for the Record........................................    19
    Knabenshue, Traci:
        Letter for the Record........................................   181
    Kneller, Grace:
        Letter for the Record........................................   182
    Knoble, Steven:
        Letter for the Record........................................   183
    Kobayashi, Sachi Christine:
        Letter for the Record........................................   184
    Kossack, Darlene:
        Letter for the Record........................................   185
    Kreger, Kenneth:
        Letter for the Record........................................   186
    Kreuscher, Juliana:
        Letter for the Record........................................   187
    Kuhlman, Alan and Carol:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   188
    Lamey, Deborah K.:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    92
        Letter for the Record........................................   189
    Larsen, Larry D.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   190
    Lawless, Clovis:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   191
    Leier, Rachel:
        Letter for the Record........................................   192
    Lehrter, Bill:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    73
    Lewis, Chad:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   193
    Lively, Brandie:
        Letters for the Record.......................................   194
    Love, Peyton:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    88
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
        Opening Statement............................................     1
        Projected Map entitled Alternative 2 (Proposal) produced by
          the NERI GIS Office dated 2/21/2020........................    58
    Manges, Carlie:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   195
    Mani, Jonathan ``Jon'' R.:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   196
    Martin, II, Donald W.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   197
    Martin, Steven:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    87
    Masino, Aubrey:
        Letter for the Record........................................   198
    Mazar, Tim:
        Letter for the Record........................................   199
    McCann, Sarah:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   200
    McCarthy, Justin D.:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   201
    McComas, Charles Edward:
        Letter for the Record........................................   202
    McCue, Charles:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    90
    McCurdy, Cully:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    65
    McGowan, MaryAnn:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   203
    McLaughlin, Amy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   204
    McMinn, Ed:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    67
        Letter for the Record........................................   205
    McMurray, George:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   206
    McNeal, James Todd:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   207
    Meines, Jill:
        Letter for the Record........................................   208
    Mercer County (WV) Commission:
        Resolution for the Record....................................    20
    Millar, Amy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   209
    Millard, Jan:
        Letter for the Record........................................   210
    Miller, Hon. Carol D.:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   211
    Mills, Mary:
        Letter for the Record........................................   212
    Moder, Brett:
        Letter for the Record........................................   213
    Montgomery, Marilyn:
        Letter for the Record........................................   214
    Moore, William:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   215
    Moyer, John:
        Letter for the Record........................................   216
    Mumma, Scott:
        Letter for the Record........................................   217
    National Parks Conservation Association:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   218
    Naylor, Tina M.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   227
    New River Gorge Convention & Visitors Bureau:
        Resolution for the Record....................................    22
    New River Gorge Regional Development Authority:
        Resolution for the Record....................................    24
    Oldfield, Dr. Baird:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   228
    Parker, Kenny:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    78
    Paugh, Michael A.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   229
    Pearson, Tony:
        Letter for the Record........................................   230
    Perry, Terri L.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   231
    Phillips, Jonathan:
        Letter for the Record........................................   232
    Pittman, Sandy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   233
    Prior, Heidi:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    91
    Proctor, Jeff:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    75
    Quinn, Lee Ann:
        Letter for the Record........................................   234
    Raleigh County (WV) Commission:
        Resolution for the Record....................................    26
    Rappold, Hon. Rob:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    79
    Ratcliff, Ron:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   235
    Redner, Kirk:
        Letter for the Record........................................   236
    Regan, David Andrew:
        Letter for the Record........................................   237
    Reilly, Chris:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   238
    Rhinehart, Lewis M.:
        Letter for the Record........................................    30
    Richards, Kevin:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   239
    Ridgway, Debra L.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   240
    Ritchie, Joe:
        Letter for the Record........................................   241
    Roadcap, Connie:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   242
    Roberson, Jr., James A.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   243
    Robertson, Wanda:
        Letter for the Record........................................   244
    Rosser, Angie:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    84
    Roth, Wade:
        Letter for the Record........................................   245
    Rowan, Mary Alice:
        Letter for the Record........................................   246
    Ruby, Chelsea A.:
        Opening Statement............................................    46
        Written Testimony............................................    48
    S. 2555..........................................................    96
    Sasala, Michael:
        Letter for the Record........................................   247
    Schessler, Elizabeth M.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   248
    Schindler, Deanna:
        Letter for the Record........................................   249
    Schumann, Jake:
        Letter for the Record........................................   250
    Schweer, Tom:
        Letter for the Record........................................   251
    Scono, Peggy and Joe:
        Letter for the Record........................................   252
    Simpson, Melody:
        Letter for the Record........................................   253
    Simpson, Patti:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   254
    Skaggs, John:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    82
    Skeenes, Jeremy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   255
    Slone, Elizabeth:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    91
    Smith, Mitchell:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    85
    Smith, Roy:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    79
    Stearmer, Janille:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   256
    Stephenson, Sidney:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   257
    Strader, Greg:
        Letter for the Record........................................   258
    Strader, Lisa:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    68
    Sullivan, Becky:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    72
    Summers County (WV) Commission:
        Resolution for the Record....................................    31
    Sweeney, Christopher:
        Letter for the Record........................................   259
    Szekely, Meagan:
        Letter for the Record........................................   260
    Terrell, Kevin:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    76
    Terrell, Richard P.:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   261
    Tipton, Dorothy M.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   262
    Toothman, Stephanie:
        Letter for the Record........................................   263
    Trierwiler, Dean and Melody:
        Letter for the Record........................................   264
    Tuxhorn, Bruce:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   265
    Vanegas, Emily:
        Letter for the Record........................................   266
    VanVoorhis, Tim:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   267
    Waggy, Deborah:
        Letter for the Record........................................   268
    Waldron, Michael:
        Letter for the Record........................................   269
    Watts, Lizzie:
        Opening Statement............................................    41
        Written Testimony............................................    44
    Weiksnar, Tom and Family:
        Letter for the Record........................................   270
    Wender, Matt:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    74
    West Virginia Association of Convention & Visitors Bureaus:
        Resolution for the Record....................................    34
    West Virginia Council of Trout Unlimited:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   271
    West Virginia Hospitality & Travel Association:
        Resolution for the Record....................................    36
        Statement for the Record.....................................   272
    West Virginia House of Delegates:
        Concurrent Resolution 50 for the Record......................    38
    Whittington, Joseph:
        Letter for the Record........................................   273
    Whyle, Christine:
        Letter for the Record........................................   274
    Williams, Sarah E.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   275
    Williamson, H.L.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   276
    Wilson, Roger:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    70
        Letter for the Record........................................   277
    Wilson, Valerie:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   278
    Wolfe, Bo and Bethany:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   279
    Woodard, Donna:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   281
    Woodbury, Brian:
        Letter for the Record........................................   282
    Woodrum, Jack David:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    63
    Wulff, Diana:
        Letter for the Record........................................   283
    Yeakel, Erica:
        Letter for the Record........................................   284
    Yoder, Chris:
        Letter for the Record........................................   285
    Yuhasz, Dallas:
        Comment for the Record.......................................   286
    Zirkle, Christina:
        Letter for the Record........................................   287

    S. 2555, A BILL TO DESIGNATE THE NEW RIVER GORGE NATIONAL RIVER IN THE
       STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA AS THE ``NEW RIVER GORGE NATIONAL PARK AND
                       PRESERVE,'' AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

                                  ----------

                          SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 22, 2020

                                           U.S. Senate,
                     Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                           Beckley, WV.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:40 a.m. at the
    Governor Hulett C. Smith Theatre, Tamarack Conference Center,
    1 Tamarack Park, Beckley, West Virginia, Hon. Joe Manchin III,
    Ranking Member of the Committee, presiding.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

        Senator Manchin. We are going to call the meeting to order.
        I would like to welcome everyone to the legislative hearing
    of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee. I want to
    thank you for taking time out of your Saturday to be here
    today. The purpose of this hearing is to receive testimony on
    Senate bill 2555, which would redesignate the New River Gorge
    National River as the New River Gorge National Park and
    Preserve. This hearing is an important step in the legislative
    process and will help inform us as we consider modifications to
    the bill as it moves forward through Committee.
        As Ranking Member of the Committee, I am particularly proud
    to be hosting this hearing here in Beckley with my friend and
    colleague, Senator Capito, and we are very close to the Park,
    as you know. Although she, unfortunately, had a conflict that
    kept her from being here today, I would like to thank also
    another good friend of mine, who is the Chairman of the
    Committee, we sit on the Committee together, Senator Lisa
    Murkowski. Her staff is with us today also, and for her support
    in getting this hearing approved.
        Any time we hold an official hearing outside of Washington,
    it has to be approved by the Committee to be an official
    meeting. All of our staff, court reporters, everything, comes
    with us for this, so we are very pleased with that.
        The process for this hearing will be as such. I want to
    take a moment and explain the procedures that we are going to
    be following this morning. First, as I mentioned, this is an
    official legislative hearing of the Committee. This means that
    we will have a video and audio recording and there will be a
    public transcript that will include all of the comments we
    receive today.
        If you have a cell phone, please turn it on silent or off.
    It would help a lot for the meeting to go the way it is
    supposed to go. I believe all recordings and video is
    prohibited during this period of time, since we are taking the
    official one up here.
        Following the discussion with our panel of witnesses,
    members of the public will have the opportunity to provide a
    statement for the record. To ensure everyone gets a chance to
    speak, we are asking that you sign up, if you haven't already,
    and limit your comments to no more than two minutes. If you
    prefer to submit a written statement, the hearing record will
    be open for two weeks and instructions are available on the
    agenda.
        With the housekeeping out of the way, let me jump right
    into the concern that I know many of you have had, ensuring
    that hunting and fishing within the existing New River Gorge
    National River will be allowed to continue. These activities
    are important to our heritage and culture in West Virginia, and
    protecting them is a top priority. But as many of you know,
    hunting is not allowed in national parks. So Senator Capito and
    I proposed the idea of a national park and preserve
    designation, because hunting and fishing are allowed in
    national preserve areas.
        Together we have worked closely with the National Park
    Service, who helped us put together different options of how a
    possible national park and preserve designation might work. The
    area designated as a national park would include much of the
    Lower New River Gorge and key historic sites so that the park
    designation includes the major scenic and historic features and
    is consistent with other national park designations.
        Meanwhile, the rest of the existing national river boundary
    would be designated a national preserve. Hunting within the
    preserve area will continue to be managed in the same manner as
    hunting is presently allowed in the New River Gorge National
    River, and fishing will continue in both the national park and
    national preserve areas, exactly as it is right now.
        I also want to make it clear that nothing in the bill
    prohibits hunting, fishing or trapping on private lands. I
    repeat, nothing in the bill prohibits fishing or trapping on
    private lands. The National Park Service should not be
    regulating private lands, but we included language to make this
    perfectly clear that trapping is allowed on private lands.
        In my opinion, the only way a national park and preserve
    designation will be successful is if there is a broad support
    from local communities and stakeholders, including the affected
    sportsmen's groups. I recognize the national park designation
    requires tradeoffs between protecting these resources in the
    national park, encouraging economic growth and protecting
    traditional hunting and fishing access. It is important to have
    these discussions here in this public setting. Our goal is to
    make sure that we provide for appropriate protection of the
    national park resources while at the same time preserving the
    culture and heritage of this amazing area.
        The next legislative step after this hearing will be
    consideration of the bill by the full Senate Energy and Natural
    Resources Committee at which time we will have an opportunity
    to make any changes.
        So thank you, all of you, for turning out today and for
    previously held public meetings that we have had on this bill,
    and I want to hear directly from you on your thoughts and
    comments about this proposal.
        With that, I would like to recognize the other co-sponsor
    of the bill, Senator Shelley Capito, my colleague, for any
    remarks that she would like to make.
        Senator Capito.

                STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

        Senator Capito. Yes, thank you, Senator Manchin. I just
    want to say this is an incredible turnout of very interested,
    passionate and information-seeking West Virginians. I am just
    really proud of, I am sure that when this Committee goes back
    to Washington, they are going to say, you can't believe the
    public participation by West Virginians. It is just amazing. So
    I want to thank the audience, first of all, for coming and
    joining us.
        I want to thank Senator Manchin, too. He is the Ranking
    Member on this Committee. It is a critical position for him to
    be in on a lot of different issues that are important to our
    state. I want to thank you for bringing the Committee here on
    the bill that will redesignate this New River, national river,
    as a national park and preserve.
        In addition too, in her absence, I want to thank the
    Committee Chair, Lisa Murkowski, from Alaska. She was unable to
    attend but she will be absolutely pivotal in anything that
    moves forward from this point.
        I would like to thank our witnesses for taking the time
    today to come and share their thoughts on how they feel. I want
    to, again, thank all of you. I am pleased to be on the
    legislation with Senator Manchin as a co-sponsor to redesignate
    the New River Gorge National River as the New River Gorge
    National Park and Preserve.
        I am going to go through a little bit of the history. The
    New River Gorge was established as a national river in 1978.
    Some of you in the room were probably active with that. The New
    River Gorge comprises 72,000 acres of land along 53 miles of
    the New River, stretching from the Bluestone Dam to Hawks Nest.
    The New River Gorge has been cherished by generations of West
    Virginians, many in this room, and serves as a real source of
    pride for our state. It encapsulates our Appalachian heritage
    which Senator Manchin, I think, really addressed, while
    preserving those longstanding traditions of hunting and fishing
    in our state.
        Casual adventurers and thrill seekers alike come to the New
    River Gorge to raft its world class rapids, hike the scenic
    trails, climb the treacherous rock faces, I am actually not
    doing that, and watch the BASE jumpers, which I don't do
    either. I do watch them, but I don't BASE jump. Have you ever
    BASE jumped?
        Senator Manchin. They tried to push me off.
        Senator Capito. They tried to push----
        [Laughter.]
        Was that me?
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Manchin. You were out there rooting.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Capito. In any event, they catapult on Bridge Day
    which we all really enjoy with the breathtaking views.
        After hearing from a growing chorus of constituents,
    business owners and local officials, I decided it was time to
    take action to elevate the stature of the New River National
    River into the National Park System. We have had numerous
    meetings, and many of you have been in the meetings. We have
    been to three meetings ourselves, together, with a whole host
    of interested parties, but my staff and Joe's staff have also
    been out, and also the staff of the Committee has been out
    numerous times, to make sure that we are listening to
    everybody. But today is a unique opportunity.
        With unanimous consent, I am asking Joe to let me submit
    for the public record of this hearing letters of support from
    eight local governments, three local trade associations, three
    local businesses, the New River Gorge Regional Development
    Authority, the Fayette County Commission, the Giles County
    Virginia Board of Supervisors and also text of a West Virginia
    House of Delegates Concurrent Resolution 50 that was done in
    2019.
        So, unanimous consent?
        Senator Manchin. Granted.
        Senator Capito. I am winning already.
        [Letters of support follow.]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Capito. Okay, in any event, these----
        Senator Manchin. Without any objections.
        Senator Capito. This is serious. These letters, I think,
    represent voices of how this change would draw more tourists,
    and we are going to hear about this, outdoor recreationalists
    and others, and encourage more Americans to come and enjoy the
    beauty that we see here in our state.
        As many of you know, last November, as a response to all
    this, I introduced a much different bill, broader bill, that
    would have only changed the entire park to just a national
    park. But I knew, and I had specific language in there that
    said that we could preserve the hunting and fishing parameters
    that we had had in the national river but, as many of you know,
    in national parks, hunting is not permitted. So this, I think,
    approach is much, much improved, and we have talked a lot about
    this, a much more viable alternative.
        In addition to the meeting in December 2018, we had a
    sportsmen roundtable with Senator Manchin at the headquarters
    with seven sportsmen's groups and past DNR Commissioners to
    keep everyone apprised. But we learned at that meeting that
    some people were still taken by surprise by this----
        Senator Manchin. Right.
        Senator Capito. ----that they felt like they had not been
    quite informed as to what was going on. So then we held a
    public meeting at the Canyon Rim Visitor Center in October,
    this last October. I think this legislation, as it is being
    worked, balances the interests of all diverse stakeholders to
    create a robust national park worthy of the title and
    preserving the right to hunt in nearly 64,500 acres.
        Under the current statute, hunting must be permitted in at
    least a portion of the national river area, but the amount of
    acreage is not specifically defined right now. There is nothing
    in the current statute that expresses Congressional intent on
    how much land should be open for hunting and where that land
    should be. The New River Gorge National Park and Preserve
    Designation Act provides specific protections for hunting and
    fishing in the 64,495 acre preserve, recognizing that we, as
    Members of Congress, intend for this land to be permanently
    available to our sportsmen.
        As it exists now in this bill, 7,691 acres of the national
    park will incorporate the most scenic overlooks and historic
    elements of the New River Gorge and maximize the availability
    to visitors from around West Virginia and outside of West
    Virginia to maximize their enjoyment. This redesignation will
    give the area's economy a much-needed boost by raising national
    awareness of a site that encapsulates and makes West Virginia
    wild and wonderful.
        I look forward to the discussion today. I would like to
    thank all of the members of my staff and the staff that came
    from Washington to move forward. With this, I look forward to
    the rest of the meeting.
        Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate it.
        Let me explain to you how the timing works too. We have
    Darla here and Darla runs the Committee. Basically what she
    does, she keeps us on time. The reason for the timing, and if
    you have ever watched us on television, you will see it, we
    always have these in front of us when we are talking and we
    have it right now at five minutes. So each one of our witnesses
    will have five minutes. You will see it go to a yellow, that
    means you are coming down to the last minute and then, red.
        Not to be rude, I don't want to be rude, whatsoever, but I
    will say your time has elapsed and hopefully you all will
    understand at that time, you know, kind of, wrap it up, but if
    you watch this, so when you all are talking, the same thing. If
    someone is up there when your two minutes, when it starts
    getting close within 30 seconds, this will come on, the yellow
    and then the red and at that time I would have to ask you if
    you could continue to wrap this up so we have as much
    participation as possible.
        With that, let me start with our witnesses and welcome them
    and introduce them to you.
        Providing testimony for the Administration is Lizzie Watts.
    I think most people know Lizzie here. She is the Superintendent
    of the New River Gorge National River. I want to thank Lizzie
    and all the National Park Service (NPS) staff for their work
    over many months to help us identify options--and I repeat,
    options--for possible designation of the New River Gorge as a
    National Park and Preserve.
        To provide some additional perspectives, we have witnesses
    from a variety of backgrounds.
        Chelsea Ruby--Chelsea, if you will raise your hand there.
    Chelsea is basically the Director of the West Virginia Tourism
    Commission. She is here to provide the state's perspective on
    the recreation economy.
        Next to Chelsea we have Jerod Harman. Jerod is President of
    the West Virginia Wildlife Federation. He is here with us today
    to give some perspective from the hunting and sportsmen's
    communities.
        And then we have Rick Johnson. Rick is a resident of Oak
    Hill, West Virginia, and the owner of River Expeditions, a
    lodge and outfitter that operates rafting trips on the New
    River.
        I want to thank each and every one of you, again, for being
    here and giving of your time and your expertise. Lizzie, we are
    going to start with you.

      STATEMENT OF LIZZIE WATTS, SUPERINTENDENT, NEW RIVER GORGE
     NATIONAL RIVER, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE
                                INTERIOR

        Ms. Watts. Good morning, folks. I, too, want to take just a
    second to thank everybody for coming. This has been a group
    effort and we really do, we're very thrilled with how many
    people want to say and want to share their opinions because it
    will make it all better in the long run, but we really do
    appreciate you coming today.
        Ranking Member Manchin and Senator Capito, I thank you for
    the opportunity to present the Department of the Interior's
    views on Senate bill 2555, to designate the New River Gorge
    National River here in the State of West Virginia as the New
    River Gorge National Park and Preserve. We do not object to the
    naming of the New River Gorge National River as the National
    River Gorge National Park and Preserve with hunting allowed in
    only the areas designated as the preserve as this bill would
    do.
        But we would like to continue to work with you and the
    members of the Committee on suggested alternatives. The
    Department appreciates that you, the sponsors of this
    legislation, and the Senate Energy and Natural Resources
    Committee share our interest in adhering to the longstanding
    precedent and traditions in the designation of the units of
    National Park System. We appreciate your efforts to avoid
    naming areas where hunting is allowed as a national park. To do
    so would not only, would not be consistent with the National
    Park Service and Congressional precedence. The National Park
    Service presented options to you for your consideration last
    spring, and we present them again here today.
        Option one is to informally rather than statutorily refer
    to the New River Gorge National River, the Gauley River
    National Recreation Area and the Bluestone National Scenic
    River as National Parks of Southern West Virginia. Signs,
    brochures and marketing materials could be used to use that
    name. It is the same approach actually being used in other park
    groups, including the National Parks of New York Harbor, the
    National Parks of Eastern North Carolina, the National Parks of
    Western Pennsylvania and the National Mall and Memorial Parks.
    These parks grouped capitalize on proximity to markets, to
    market their units within the context of their geographic
    areas. No legislation would be required to adopt this approach
    and the principal benefit of this approach is that it offers
    the use of the name national park and a little NP brand without
    adhering to and without affecting hunting.
        Another option would be to designate the entire New River
    Gorge National River as the New River Gorge National Recreation
    Area. Such a designation would be consistent with the standard
    NPS nomenclature for units that allow hunting as well as other
    recreational activities. It would have no effect or little
    effect on the hunting opportunities. Other areas, such as that
    national recreation area in the National Park System, include
    Lake Mead, Glen Canyon and Delaware Water Gap. Of course, of
    the options, that would redesignate New River Gorge by statute.
    This alternative is the most consistent with the National Park
    Service management of similar units.
        The legislation under discussion today is largely similar
    to the options developed by the National Park Service to
    designate the New River Gorge National River as New River Gorge
    National Park and Preserve. In this proposal, the National Park
    part of the unit would be designated for four, non-contiguous
    areas that encompass approximately 7,000 acres of land and
    reflects the most scenic and historically significant portions
    of the park as is the standard for all areas that are
    designated national parks. The National Preserve portion of the
    unit would encompass the balance of land within the present
    boundary, approximately 64,495 acres. A concern that has been
    raised is that it would close approximately 4,385 acres where
    hunting is presently allowed and would change access to a
    couple of popular hunting areas.
        The last option we presented would also designate the New
    River Gorge National River as the New River Gorge National Park
    and Preserve but with fewer acres designated as national park--
    this proposal identifies five, non-contiguous areas comprised
    of about 1,800 acres that are already closed to hunting. The
    National Park Preserve would encompass the remaining 70,000.
    This alternative would not affect hunting opportunities,
    however, with the exception of Canyon Rim, it does not set
    aside the most significant natural and scenic and biological
    resources as the National Park in the national park area.
        The Department would like to continue to work with you and
    the other members of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources
    Committee to try to solve any or issues around S. 2555.
        Ranking Member Manchin and Senator Capito, this concludes
    my statement, and I would please to answer any questions you
    have.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Watts follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Lizzie. Chelsea, you will be
    next. If you will, please give us your perspective from the
    economic side.

       STATEMENT OF CHELSEA A. RUBY, TOURISM COMMISSIONER, WEST
     VIRGINIA TOURISM OFFICE, WEST VIRGINIA DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

        Ms. Ruby. Sure.
        Good morning, Ranking----
        Senator Manchin. Chelsea, if you will pull that up close to
    you.
        Ms. Ruby. There we go.
        Alright, good morning, Ranking Member Manchin, Senator
    Capito. It's an honor to be here today to talk about the
    proposed New River Gorge National Park and Preserve. I want to
    thank you both for holding this hearing about what is a
    tremendous opportunity for West Virginia. I'm the envy of my
    counterparts in other states today. As you all know, national
    parks are the gold standard for tourism and I can tell you,
    without hesitation, that my counterparts in the other 20 states
    that don't have national parks, they would love to be having
    this conversation this morning. So I want to thank you both for
    looking at this important piece of legislation.
        On behalf of Governor Justice, I want to begin by saying
    that the State of West Virginia strongly supports the creation
    of the New River Gorge National Park and Preserve. The Gorge is
    one of West Virginia's most beautiful and iconic places with
    its wild rapids, rugged mountains and majestic views. It's
    those very mountains and majestic views that have led us to
    talking about the potential growth there has been in West
    Virginia's tourism industry for years. I know this community
    knows about the impact of tourism in West Virginia, but you
    might not know the sheer magnitude or the growth in recent
    years.
        Tourism in West Virginia is a $4.6 billion industry. It
    supports more than 45,000 jobs, and the best news is that it's
    growing. Our last economic impact report showed growth in all
    nine travel regions in West Virginia. Our growth over the last
    two years, we've seen 9.9 percent increases in travel or
    spending. We are outpacing the national rate of growth for
    tourism by 58 percent. We're becoming a national leader, and I
    believe that we're just getting started. There's a lot more
    that we can do.
        Designating this area as a national park will generate
    significant and immediate boost to tourism here. For many
    travelers, the national park designation is a kind of seal of
    approval. It's the confirmation that a designation that this
    place would be one of the nation's greatest places and that
    it's a place you need to see. The New River Gorge certainly
    deserves to be recognized as one of those places and when it
    is, we expect that we will see double-digit increases in
    visitation right away. Having this designation will immediately
    put us on the map for a whole new group of people.
        Last year the National Park Service saw over 319 million
    visitors and park designations, or redesignations, result in
    huge boosts. For example, the most recent one was in Indiana,
    the Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore was changed over to the
    Indiana Dunes National Park. As soon as that happened, they
    started seeing record-breaking attendance. According to the
    Associated Press, in July, just after it was redesignated,
    their attendance doubled. It grew by over 50,000 visitors in
    one month, that was looking at July to the previous July. This
    designation has brought national and international attention to
    Porter, Indiana. Imagine what this attention could do for West
    Virginia. It has a huge potential to greatly expand the state's
    tourism economy and brand us as a major tourism destination on
    the East Coast. If you look at a map of national parks, you see
    there are many of them on the West Coast, but we don't have as
    many on the East Coast so this would be an exciting thing for
    the entire region.
        We, at the West Virginia Tourism Office, stand ready to
    launch a major marketing campaign to promote the park as soon
    as it's created. Governor Justice and our legislature have
    invested significantly more resources in tourism over the past
    couple of years. Just last year, the tourism budget in West
    Virginia was tripled. We had one of the highest budget
    increases in the country so we stand ready and able to assist
    with this as soon as a designation is changed. We also would be
    able to help with the economic development that I believe would
    happen as soon as this designation were to be changed. So if
    you look at areas where the designations have changed or
    national parks have been created, existing businesses expand,
    new businesses come in and I'm happy to tell you that in West
    Virginia, we have one of the best tax credit programs in the
    nation for incentivizing tourism development. It's given us
    commitments of more than $240 million of new projects that will
    be coming over the next couple of years. So we stand ready to
    assist with that as well.
        I'm happy to take questions, but I want to end by saying
    this. The New River Gorge National Park and Preserve will be
    transformative for this region and the entire state. It's
    impossible for me to overstate what a positive difference this
    will make. If any site in the country is worthy of this
    designation, it's the New River Gorge.
        Thank you, Senator Capito, for beginning this process in
    2018, and thanks to both of you for supporting this current
    bill and for your support of the park and preserve. This is a
    wonderful chance to benefit our state and to bring this
    magnificent area the recognition it deserves.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Ruby follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Manchin. Thank you. Now we will go to Jerod Harman,
    President of the West Virginia Wildlife Federation.
        Mr. Harman.

                 STATEMENT OF JEROD HARMAN, PRESIDENT,
                   WEST VIRGINIA WILDLIFE FEDERATION

        Mr. Harman. Thank you, Senators Capito and Manchin, for
    allowing me to speak on behalf of the sportsmen this morning.
    I'm going to try my best to address some things shortly. I
    don't think I'll need five minutes. So maybe if someone runs
    over, they can have a few seconds of my time.
        I appreciate the opportunity that our sportsmen's
    organizations had to be a part of this process and to
    communicate openly with our senators in attempts to create the
    New River National Park and Preserve. We worked diligently to
    make reasonable requests that made common sense. Simply put,
    our requests were to make the New River Gorge area better for
    the sportsmen and to be considerate of all visitors.
    Unfortunately, we did not get what we asked for in order to
    gain support from the sportsmen for this proposal.
        Sportsmen and sportswomen and our youth would give up a lot
    of good hunting ground if this proposal passes. This is a major
    problem with our sportsmen. Additionally, the future
    regulations for privately-owned land within park boundaries are
    now in question and that is not acceptable to the landowners
    and the sportsmen who hunt there. We asked for trapping to be
    permitted, and it was not. There's no exception, necessarily,
    for archery, and we'd like to see something spelled out within
    the 500-foot boundaries on that.
        The potential exists for user fees within the new national
    park designation and this creates yet another concern for the
    sportsmen. Also, the possible new jurisdiction for outfitters
    for hunting and fishing around the New River would create
    additional and unnecessary red tape for them.
        These are just some of our concerns that sportsmen's groups
    need addressed for our support of a national park and preserve
    designation. Our simple requests have not been met, and the
    loss of additional hunting ground and potential access is
    completely unacceptable to the sportsmen and sportsmen's
    groups. We, the sportsmen, are going to be some of the biggest
    losers, and we strongly oppose the designation for the New
    River Gorge. Should changes be made to the proposal that
    support the sportsmen's request and could potentially get us
    all on common ground, we very much look forward to receiving
    them for consideration.
        We thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Harman follows:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Mr. Harman.
        Our panel will conclude with Mr. Rick Johnson. Rick is a
    resident of Oak Hill, and he is the owner of River Expeditions.
        Rick, do you want to pull that a little closer to you? Yes.

               STATEMENT OF RICHARD ``RICK'' A. JOHNSON,
                        OWNER, RIVER EXPEDITIONS

        Mr. Johnson. Good morning, everybody. Thank you, Senators
    Capito and Manchin and the Senate Energy and Natural Resources
    Committee, for inviting me and holding this hearing in West
    Virginia. I'm Rick Johnson. My wife and I own River Expeditions
    in Fayette County, West Virginia. I'm an anomaly in the rafting
    industry having formerly been a coal operator; managed timber
    properties; as well as being an avid sportsman. I live and work
    in West Virginia by choice.
        Southern West Virginia, since the late 1800s, has relied on
    the coal industry for its jobs and economic prosperity. This
    has changed. Tourism has become the new economic engine in the
    area. We all agree that Southern West Virginia faces
    challenges, high unemployment from lost coal-related jobs, drug
    abuse, diminishing population. How can we keep families here in
    the short-term while retaining high school and college
    graduates for tomorrow's workforce?
        We recognize the need for an economic driver that will grow
    the region's economy by providing jobs and tax revenue. As you
    know, the New River Gorge National River has been under the
    National Park Service umbrella since 1978. This has been a
    mutually beneficial partnership for everyone. We are thankful
    to Congress and Ray Hall and Senator Byrd, who had the
    foresight to designate these three national recreation areas in
    Southern West Virginia. Now is the time to expand the realm of
    the national river area, one national river area getting the
    designation of the National Park and Preserve. We believe this
    to be the resource which economic, historic and environmental
    sustainability will come together for the greater good of the
    region, state and nation. It is time for West Virginia to
    finally have a national park. We would join an elite group,
    some of the most cherished natural wonders in the country which
    number only 62, and take our place alongside parks such as
    Denali and Yosemite.
        Under the new designation everything will remain the same
    concerning rules and regulations--it's simply a name change.
    This is a win-win for everyone. The synergy between the
    National Park Service and the West Virginia DNR and the park
    users will remain unchanged. Research supports the fact that
    national parks nationwide are an economic engine. The potential
    is unlimited in Southern West Virginia, but sources report an
    average of 21 percent increase in visitation in new parks.
        The most visited park in North America is in Appalachia.
    It's the Great Smoky Mountains National Park with over 11
    million visitors annually which is almost double the number of
    visitors for the next closest park which is the Grand Canyon,
    one of the modern seven wonders of the world. Just think what a
    national park designation could do for Southern West Virginia,
    one of the most economically depressed areas in America but
    within six hours drive of 42 million people. Tourism is the
    only resource that has ever existed in Central Appalachia where
    all the money stays here, not going out of state and this
    resource renews itself every day.
        I'm a lifelong hunter and member and donor of the National
    Wild Turkey Federation, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation,
    Ducks Unlimited, Safari Club International, National Rifle
    Association and America Outdoors. I've always been an ethical
    hunter following and respecting rules and regulations and the
    rights of landowners. This is why I've always found it odd that
    folks have a strange attachment to land they've never owned.
    Generations of people in the area have broken the law
    trespassing on land that was privately owned by hunting,
    fishing and camping, almost as if it were an entitlement. It
    was not until the Park Service purchased the land in the late
    '70s that it became legally accessible to everyone. In fact,
    without the purchase of this land by the Park Service, there
    would be little or no public land to hunt on in this area since
    currently most of the large tracts of land have been leased by
    private hunting clubs.
        There are currently several areas in the New River Gorge
    National River that are closed to hunting, but there may be an
    additional small area proposed, in the new proposed park. This
    area is so small in acreage it's inconsequential that tens of
    thousands of acres that the Park Service is explicitly leaving
    open to hunting in perpetuity. A friend of mine who does not
    hunt asked me recently what part of the park he could hike on
    with his grandkids during hunting season without disturbing
    hunters and avoiding the danger of being shot. I told him while
    there were over 64,000 acres within the proposed park and
    preserve that allowed hunting, there would be several thousand
    acres that weren't open to hunting so people who didn't hunt
    but wanted to enjoy the park could do so safely and without
    worry. It was then it occurred to me how selfish we are as
    hunters that protecting every acre of hunting land without any
    consideration for those who don't hunt that are also entitled
    to enjoy the same beauty and resources we take for granted. And
    for this I was almost embarrassed and a little ashamed.
        In closing, I support, I'm in support of the park and
    preserve designation and welcome opportunity for increased
    visitation and economic development. The new designation will
    foster good stewardship, ultimately exposing future generations
    of this region to our country. Thanks again, Senators Manchin
    and Capito, for your vision to create a national park in West
    Virginia and allowing me to testify.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Johnson follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Manchin. Thank you all.
        Now we will go into our question part of the hearing, and I
    will explain how we will do this. I will start with questions
    first, and then Senator Capito will have her questions, then I
    will open it up to the audience. We have a mic down front, and
    we have portable mics. Who has the portable mics?
        Okay, Terri, right there. Do we have any others?
        Ms. Berkley. That's also a portable----
        Senator Manchin. Okay.
        Ms. Berkley. This one over here.
        Senator Manchin. So we have this one here if you can get in
    front. If you can't, raise your hand. Terri will get to you, we
    will get you a mic.
        Also what we are going to do, David Brooks--David, if you
    will stand?
        David Brooks, basically, has over 30 years' experience. He
    has written about every piece of legislation that deals with a
    national park or preserve in the entire United States. So he
    has more experience working with Senator Murkowski's staff, but
    David has been on the front of this for many, many years so we
    have an expert here. He will point out as we are talking, and a
    question might be asked and someone starts answering and
    talking about a certain part, David will try to point it out
    with a laser so you can follow along.
        At any time if something doesn't make sense or something
    after a person is done asking a question, please raise your
    hand. I will try to acknowledge it so we can get clarification
    if you need it.
        Basically, all the comments you make are for the record. Us
    giving you our opinion doesn't, at this point in time, we are
    going to ask our questions which, I think, hopefully, we can
    answer through the question and answer period. This all gets
    put into the record which goes to Washington. So that is when
    we really do the markup, finding out the facts that we are
    going to be dealing with.
        With that, I am going to start with my questions first, and
    I have a few to ask.
        This goes to Ms. Lizzie Watts. Ms. Watts, it is critical
    that we all have the facts as we discuss the park and preserve
    designation. The bill designates approximately 7,691 acres as
    national park.
        David, did you want to point it out?
        Mr. Brooks. Sure.
        Senator Manchin. It designates 7,691 acres as national park
    with the rest as national preserve.
        [David Brooks delineates projected map.]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Brooks. So the preserve would all be included here and
    then the individual national park areas would be here, here--
    there and by the----
        Senator Manchin. So everything that has the circle is
    basically going to be in the new national park area?
        Mr. Brooks. That's in the bill right now.
        Senator Manchin. That is in the bill right now. And
    everything that is not in those circles is open to be used as
    we have always used them, right?
        Mr. Brooks. Right.
        Senator Manchin. The hunting is permitted.
        Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir.
        Senator Manchin. Ms. Watts, how many of those 7,691 acres
    are currently open to hunting? That is my first question. And
    the follow-up on that, do we know how much hunting activity
    occurs in these areas?
        Ms. Watts. Right now, right now, presently----
        Senator Manchin. You need your mic. Hold it, just pull it
    out of there and hold it, if you will. Yes, go ahead.
        Ms. Watts. Can you all hear?
        Senator Manchin. Yes.
        Ms. Watts. Presently, as we operate today, there's 7,000
    acres that he was referring to, Senator Manchin was referring
    to, but of those acres, of everything that was hunted last year
    is the second answer and that's probably the easiest, but of
    all the 72,000 acres within the park minus there's about 1,381
    acres that right now we do not allow hunting and then those
    areas are safety zones around really busy visitor areas such as
    Canyon Rim Visitor Center. But all the other areas are open to
    hunting. With the change it goes down to about 4,300 or so
    acres that would be closed to hunting.
        But Senator Manchin, you asked me how much the take was?
        Senator Manchin. How much activity is on that hunting and
    how much harvest has been?
        Ms. Watts. The harvest for the last year for tags--there
    were 52 deer taken out of that 68,000, 69,000 acres. There were
    52 deer, there were 9 turkey and there was 1 bear.
        Senator Manchin. My second question.
        Hold on now, hold on.
        [Someone speaking out from the audience.]
        What is that?
        Senator Capito. Stats from where?
        Senator Manchin. Stats from where?
        Ms. Watts. Those stats came from the Division of Natural
    Resources.
        Audience Member #1. The only way you would report that,
    when you're tagging in your animal, is if you report your
    animal tagged online--where they would then ask if you went to
    check stations----
        Senator Manchin. Okay.
        Audience Member #1. The DNR officer, they would not ask for
    that information, so there's no way----
        Senator Manchin. Okay. We will follow up with it. Thank
    you.
        Ms. Watts. We'll follow up, because I love getting those
    statistics. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Here is the other thing. First question,
    on the question. This goes to Mr. Harman, okay?
        I appreciate your testimony but you express concern about
    future regulation in hunting and trapping on private property
    as well as concerns that hunting closures may be put into place
    within 500 feet of buildings. We drafted the bill to try and
    clarify that hunting in the areas designated as national
    preserve will be managed in the same manner as currently
    allowed. One of the reasons I am glad that we are having the
    hearing is to discuss these issues on the record. I am also
    glad that we have the National Park Service represented as
    well. So perhaps we can clarify some of the potential impacts.
        So the question would go--and that was Mr. Harman, the
    statement that you made.
        So again, Lizzie, can you please address the concerns
    brought up by Mr. Harman and others about regulation to private
    property and hunting rights? In other words, does anything in
    the bill or the existing law allow the park to regulate these
    activities on private property?
        Ms. Watts. No, sir. The new bill will not change how it's
    operated today, and we do not regulate on state--on private
    property from----
        Senator Manchin. Good, okay. Does the Park Service close
    areas within 500 feet of buildings to all hunting and would
    that change?
        Ms. Watts. Actually, the compendium does--there are two
    legislative options that are tied to that. One is what's in
    DNR, Division of Natural Resources, rules and regulations for
    hunting and fishing. They have closures for certain things.
    Then we have federal closures which are called the CFR, Code of
    Federal Regulations, and we adopt most of the state rules.
        There is one difference that I am aware of and there are
    probably more, but there's one in particular that actually
    talks about how far you can be away from buildings. It is not
    in our compendium that says buildings. We actually say there
    are three places in particular--campgrounds, visitor centers
    and public access areas like boat launches--where we have a lot
    of the public at one time using an area and it is not--we
    adopted the 500 feet which was in the state rules.
        Senator Manchin. Finally, my final question, then I will
    turn it over to Senator Capito, is again to Ms. Watts and it is
    basically the concern that the designation as a national park
    and preserve will alter the permits and fees required for the
    activities of people to enjoy the New River. I know the New
    River Gorge National River does not currently charge an
    entrance fee. But do you have the authority to charge user fees
    under the current law? The way things are right now, could you
    charge a fee? Could you design or designate a fee for that and,
    in other words, could the park start charging, if they chose to
    do so? And the follow-up to that is does the bill change any
    authorities when it comes to permitting commercial outfitting
    or charging user fees, as been stated?
        Ms. Watts. It changes nothing. It will be operated just as
    it has in the past. The bill has no reflection on that and
    there are no entrance fees at this point in time and commercial
    use fees are the only fees that we collect and that's for
    commercial businesses that actually make money within the park
    and that's required by federal law.
        Senator Manchin. Senator Capito.
        Thank you.
        Ms. Watts. You're welcome.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Mr. Harman, the current law permits hunting in at least a
    portion of the National River area but, I mentioned this in my
    statement, the acreage is not specified in the existing law on
    the National River. Have you, in your conversations, ever, has
    anybody ever raised a concern with you of the present
    designation, that it is not specified, what areas in law, like
    we would be doing in this bill? Do you understand my question?
    I am probably not asking it as specifically. Have you ever
    heard a concern that it is not specifically laid out in the law
    how many acres you can presently hunt on and how many you
    cannot?
        Mr. Harman. It's always a concern. And, of course, we want
    to maintain as much opportunity to hunt as we possibly can and
    I don't know if that is really answering your question, but----
        Senator Capito. It does. It does, yes.
        Let's talk about the Lower Gorge because I think that is a
    source of concern for many of the sportsmen. Are you familiar
    with the hunting concerns in the Lower Gorge and could you
    specify that a little bit for me?
        Mr. Harman. There are truly some sportsmen in the room that
    are a lot more intimate that could answer those questions----
        Senator Capito. Uh-huh.
        Mr. Harman. ----better than myself.
        Senator Capito. But you have heard that, specifically?
        Mr. Harman. Yes.
        Senator Capito. Yes.
        So, to the Superintendent on the Lower Gorge issue, the
    terrain in this issue, my understanding is, that it is pretty
    dramatic in terms of what it is like to maneuver and access and
    everything. Can you describe that a little bit and why that
    might be an area that, that is part of the area that is of the
    area of contention of the acres that have been removed from the
    hunting designation. Can you talk about that a little bit?
        Ms. Watts. Yes, ma'am.
        Actually, the section of the Lower Gorge of the New is the
    most dramatic. It is from Nuttallburg, which is one of the most
    historic sites, and tells the history of Southern West
    Virginia, of coal mining, railroading and logging, but it also
    is the one that tells the story of how we're tied
    internationally and nationally to the industrial age of the
    state. It is the contributions of loggers, railroaders, hunters
    and everybody else that built this country.
        So we start at Nuttallburg and we go through this very
    steep, narrow gorge. It's where the gorge changes. It's the
    section that most whitewater rafters say is the most
    adventuresome. It is technically the hardest, but it's very,
    very steep. It also has one of the other recreational uses
    that's tremendous--which is, you see the Endless Wall?--and
    many of the rock climbers that climb there, and the scenic
    views from that section are the most dramatic in the park.
    You're on the rim and you're looking down 200 to 300 feet and
    you see this spectacular gorge.
        So it's that section that is very, very steep and it's hard
    to access. It's either by boat or you hike most places. And so,
    that's really the difference between that section of the
    Gorge----
        Senator Capito. Yes.
        Mr. Johnson, do you have any comment on the Lower Gorge
    issue?
        Mr. Johnson. Yes, ma'am. As the Superintendent said, you
    know, it's steeper than a cow's face. People, you know, if you
    go down----
        Senator Capito. It is what?
        Mr. Johnson. It's steeper than a cow's face. It's straight
    up and down. You know, it's something that most folks, unless
    they're in really good physical condition can hunt. I would
    call it, you need to be in sheep shape. In other words, you
    need to be able to get on a mountain to sheep hunt to use that
    property.
        Senator Capito. Well, that is a descriptor there, thank
    you.
        [Laughter.]
         Well, I think this is going to be, and I would encourage
    and I'm sure you all will because I know this is an area of
    contention that we will get some comments on this and
    clarifications from those of you who have used that area and
    are very concerned about it. So I would ask that.
        I do want to just reinforce what Senator Manchin said
    because Mr. Harman, it was in your statement on the trapping
    issue because we did cover this. We started out differently
    than we ended up, I think, in this bill. And you mentioned
    archery which, I will have to say, I am not sure we have
    actually considered archery like we need to----
        Senator Manchin. We need to clarify that.
        Senator Capito. ----so we need to clarify that as well. But
    there is now a preservation in the law that would preserve the
    ability to trap on the private lands is my understanding. So
    does that satisfy your concerns?
        Mr. Harman. That's, that's, that's better.
        [Laughter.]
        No, we're not satisfied but it's better. There's a lot of
    fuzzy things in here for us as sportsmen. We've tried to
    clarify some things and some of my comments have been more as
    comments as now we can clarify them for the record.
        Senator Capito. And that is why it is good----
        Mr. Harman. That gives us all a good opportunity.
        Senator Capito. And that is why we are--this is very
    important, I think.
        Last question I am going to ask is to the Superintendent on
    the 7,600 acres that would be designated as the Park. My
    understanding is that includes some private property and
    public. Could you illuminate on that, please? Do you know
    specifically?
        Ms. Watts. Yes, ma'am.
        The 76,000, I mean----
        Senator Capito. 7,600.
        Ms. Watts. ----7,600 acres that we're referring to that
    would be closed is really any both private land, state land,
    county land and federal land. There are areas in the northern
    section, in particular the gorge, the Lower Gorge section as it
    goes up, that is really private property. There's about 3,000
    acres of that that is either private or state, not owned by
    federal ownership.
        Audience Member #2. [Inaudible.]
        Senator Capito. Okay.
        Audience Member #2. [Inaudible.]
        Ms. Watts. I am sorry, pardon?
        Audience Member #2. The criteria used to determine where
    the circles are--is that the end of the private land and all
    that----?
        Ms. Watts. To be completely honest, the circles were really
    to make the maps easier to read and we found that has probably
    been more complicated with the circles because the circles are
    actually larger than what the real land----
        Senator Capito. Than what the designation----
        Ms. Watts. ----acquisition is or even within the boundary.
    We--the first set of maps, yeah, if you start at Nuttallburg
    and go up it will tell you where it is. It's not the whole
    circle. It's just, we thought, that was when we were doing the
    maps earlier, we thought that would be easier to recognize. We
    didn't realize that it would visually be so big because it's
    not. It's not as big as it looks.
        Senator Capito. Thank you, and thank you, Senator Manchin.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
        Let me explain to you now how we go into this next part of
    the program.
        During a public hearing like this I think we have people
    that have signed up. Terri, do you have their names?
        Ms. Berkley. Yes, sir.
        Senator Manchin. You will call the names out for the
    people. Give me at least three or four names so they can line
    up, if you want to come up front, and we will do this in an
    orderly manner.
        The panel here is not here to answer the questions. If we
    can get some of that in, we will. I don't want to take up your
    two minutes. Your statement goes into the record. The question
    you ask in your statement, we are going to get you answers. We
    are going to make sure that this thing is delved into and then
    work with you. That is the markup when we go to that, can we
    make the changes?
        Jerod, as you said, there are still some fuzzy areas of
    this or that or you don't like it at all, but if you don't like
    it at all or you like certain parts of it, make that as clear
    as we possibly can so there's no interpretation left for
    anybody else.
        With that, we are going to start. If you will, Terri, call
    the names of the people, the first four and we will start
    there.
        Ms. Berkley. Making a statement for the record is Mr. Jack
    David Woodrum, followed by Mr. Jim Campbell, Mr. Cully McCurdy
    and Mr. Glenn Coleman.
        Senator Manchin. If the four would work their way to the
    front in the order they were called, and we will take you as
    the witnesses come forward.
        Yes, sir. Go ahead.
        Mr. Woodrum. Ranking Member Manchin, Senator Capito,
    distinguished guests.
        Senator Manchin. Hold on, is the mic on?
        Mr. Woodrum. How about now?
        Senator Capito. No.
        Senator Manchin. Who is in charge of the mic?
        Mr. Woodrum. Alright, I have to get a little shorter. How's
    that?
        Senator Manchin. Go ahead. When you all come up, please
    state your name for the record again when you start, before you
    start.
        Mr. Woodrum. Jack, J-a-c-k Woodrum, W-o-o-d-r-u-m.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Woodrum. Ranking Member Manchin, Senator Capito,
    distinguished guests, thank you for bringing this home to West
    Virginia. We appreciate you having this hearing here.
        I'm President of the Summers County Commission. Summers
    County sits at the southern gateway to the New River Gorge
    National River. We have provided a resolution in support of
    this task you're undertaking here. We think, as far as the
    economy, will gather this to be a great improvement and a great
    help to us in advancing tourism here within the region.
        Also a member of the New River Gorge Regional Development
    Authority and we----
        Senator Manchin. You need to speak up. You have to speak
    loud, sir.
        Mr. Woodrum. ----and we also support your efforts and we
    appreciate your working on this.
        As an elected official, I would say I'm one of the few
    elected officials that's spent a great deal of time within the
    New River Gorge, the Bluestone National Wild and Scenic River
    and the Gauley national areas, decades of my life. The people I
    grew up with helped mentor me and craft the legislation--to
    make the legislation for the New River Gorge Regional--or for
    the New River Gorge National Recreation Area. The enabling
    legislation, I would encourage you to do everything you can to
    maintain that enabling legislation which also includes trapping
    which, I understand, is becoming an issue, but I grew up
    running a trap line, hunting, fishing, canoeing, there's very
    little of this land that I haven't touched in my lifetime.
        It don't look like it now, but at one time I was out and
    about. So--but we would appreciate everything you can do to
    move this project forward but also within the park with this
    additional visitorship, it's going to eat up a lot of resources
    so I would also encourage you to do everything you can to be
    respectful of their budget, to increase their budget to allow
    them to handle this increased visitorship which is going to be
    very important to us.
        Summers County, we look at counties outside of the
    immediate area of the Gorge that have provided resolutions in
    support including at least one county in Virginia, upstream of
    Hinton. So, we--this one is going to mean a great deal to a lot
    of us. Also, the New River Parkway needs completing and that
    would be a big part of it.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Woodrum. We have an $11 million investment, and this
    would help us with that too.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Woodrum. Thank you very much.
        Senator Manchin. We appreciate your testimony.
        Sir, you want to talk with your mouth almost right on it,
    if you can.
        Mr. Campbell. I'm your sound guy.
        [Laughter.]
        So my name's Jim Campbell. I own Chimney Corner and a
    historic house up in Ansted, the Page Vawter House that we
    restored and has a lot of great history with the railroads and
    so forth. I've also also been involved in tourism and trying to
    bring other events here. I'm originally from Los Angeles. I'm a
    transplant. Really, I recognized 13 years ago the opportunities
    here, especially for motorcycle riders on the 60 and showing
    our place.
        So I, you know, revived Chimney Corner. We have a cafe and
    a country store down there. We brought, worked with the Boy
    Scouts to bring the Spartan Race sandwiches, been a huge boon
    in exposure to our area, Bridge Jam, working on a motorcycle
    rally right now for Memorial Day weekend. So there's a lot of
    opportunities here that we're, we've been missing. I think that
    this is a huge opportunity for us, for tourism and tourism is
    our jobs of the future.
        There's just so much that we can really offer as an area
    and with the beauty that we have here. I know you've all been
    parts of it and stuff so, I appreciate your continued support
    in what we're doing on a little scale over here, the small
    business owners and that. I think this will bring everybody's
    value of our area, our properties, our businesses up, up to
    another level where we're able to compete with some of these
    other areas.
        So that's all I have to say. Thank you.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir, very much. We appreciate
    your testimony.
        Next?
        Mr. McCurdy. And for the short guy.
        Senator Manchin. Get up close to it, so I know they will be
    able to hear you.
        Mr. McCurdy. Senator Capito, Senator Manchin, thank you for
    the opportunity to speak here today. My name is Cully McCurdy,
    and I'm the District Wildlife Biologist for the National Wild
    Turkey Federation (NWTF) for West Virginia and Virginia and I
    reside in Pocahontas County, West Virginia. The NWTF is a
    national, non-profit organization dedicated to the conservation
    of the wild turkey and the preservation of our hunting heritage
    with 180,000 adult members nationwide and over 3,500 adult
    members in West Virginia.
        The NWTF in West Virginia has spent nearly $1.6 million
    since 1985 on habitat projects, outreach, land purchases and
    increasing sportsmen access to public lands. Since 1985, NWTF
    volunteers and partners raised and spent more than $488 million
    toward our mission of conserving wildlife habitat, preserving
    our hunting heritage across the U.S.
        In 2012 the NWTF embarked on the 10-year national ``Save
    the Habitat, Save the Hunt'' initiative. One of the goals was
    to open access, working with our federal and state partners, to
    500,000 acres for hunters nationwide. Seven years into the
    initiative we have surpassed our half-million-acre goal by
    125,000 acres. This was an important goal related to the
    nationwide R3 effort by state wildlife agencies and
    conservation groups. R3 stands for Recruitment, Retention and
    Reactivation of hunters. It is a movement to address the
    declining number of hunters in our country by recruiting new
    hunters, retaining those that currently hunt and reactivating
    former hunters that have lapsed for various reasons.
        Hunters pay for conservation through license sales and
    excise tax through the purchase of firearms, ammunition,
    archery equipment and accessories. Funds collected are
    allocated to state game agencies by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
    Service under the guidelines of the Pittman-Robertson Act.
    Statistics show that one of the primary reason hunters leave
    the sport is due to the lack of areas to hunt and loss of
    access. If the redesignation occurs under the current,
    preferred alternative related to Senate bill 2555, 4,385 acres
    of public land access will be lost to hunters. This is
    unacceptable, and it's not supported by the users that have
    enjoyed this land in many cases for generations.
        Thank you for the opportunity to----
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you very much, sir, we appreciate
    it.
        [Applause.]
        Terri, do you want to call maybe three more as they come
    down?
        Ms. Berkley. The next set of speakers is Ms. Brenda
    Howells, Mr. Joe Brouse, Ms. Lisa Strader and Mr. Ed McMinn.
        Senator Manchin. If you all would move down as you can to
    the sides here, and then we will call you in accordingly.
        Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Coleman. I'm Glenn Coleman. Senator Joe and Senator
    Capito, I want to thank you for, I think we met.
        Senator Manchin. Yes, we have, thank you.
        Mr. Coleman. But I am pretty much in agreement with Mr.
    Harman. He's addressed everything that I wanted to address here
    today to let you know about what the hunters are going to lose
    here if, and I don't hunt some of these areas but I do hunt
    other areas that in the stipulation that these areas, a lot of
    these areas may be rock cliff and may be inaccessible to hunt,
    but a lot of them are accessible to hunt and also there are a
    lot of deer, turkey and bear harvested off of these areas.
        And so, and the assumption that we're heartless, we just
    want our rights, that we don't care about the other things, is
    totally wrong and so, that's also been brought up here today.
    And I don't agree with that and none of the guys that hunt and
    stuff in here do agree. We have lost a lot of areas to hunt and
    in areas that we used to hunt constantly and we don't have that
    area anymore because of areas that have been taken over by say,
    one primary area that I hunt that affects me is the Boy Scout
    area and those areas they have ever since they have came in and
    I know it was private land that they purchased and I don't
    begrudge them that, but they have tried to deny us access to
    the Park Service land ever since they've been back there.
        And so, it's a situation----
        Senator Manchin. That has been brought to our attention
    today, and we are going to work on that.
        Mr. Coleman. Okay.
        Senator Manchin. I am glad you all brought it to our
    attention.
        Mr. Coleman. It is something that needs to be taken care
    of.
        The other thing, the last thing, my red light's on so I
    want to thank you and Senator Capito for your work on our
    healthcare and our teachers. Thank you.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. You are welcome. Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        Who is next, Terri?
        Ms. Berkley. There's two right there, sir.
        Senator Manchin. Call their name, please.
        Ms. Howells. Hi, my name is Brenda Howells.
        Senator Manchin. Brenda, if you will, just pull it right
    close to you, yes, pull it down, pull it down just a little
    bit. There you go.
        Ms. Howells. Got it.
        Hi, my name is Brenda Howells. I work at ACE Adventure
    Resort in Oak Hill. We have been watching our rafting numbers
    decline over the past ten years. We are constantly looking for
    new ideas to bring people to the area. In the past five years
    we have opened our private waterpark to the public. We have
    started Mountain Music Fest which we hold annually, and this
    will be our seventh year in June of holding this festival. We
    are at the present time installing an aerial park to attract
    more visitors.
        I feel designating the New River Gorge as a National Park
    and Preserve is a great economic move for Southern West
    Virginia. From tourism to retail, restaurants and hotels, our
    area desperately needs jobs to keep our young people from
    leaving the state. It would also be an opportunity to attract
    new businesses to the area and bring more jobs.
        Thank you.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
        [Applause.]
        Next? Okay.
        Mr. McMinn. Hello, my name is Ed McMinn. It's M-c-M-i-n-n.
    I'm here representing the West Virginia Bowhunters Association.
    I appreciate the opportunity to speak, Senator Capito and
    Senator Manchin.
        We are also one of the affiliated clubs of the West
    Virginia Wildlife League. We also represent 15 affiliated
    archery clubs within our state and over 3,000 members of the
    Bowhunters Association, many of which live in Fayette,
    Nicholas, Clay, Raleigh and surrounding counties of these
    areas. We believe the intentions of this bill are good and
    meant to benefit West Virginia, but we are opposed to the loss
    of over 4,000 acres of public hunting land.
        Honestly, it feels a little bit like David versus Goliath
    here, standing before two powerful Senators, but that power is
    given to you by your constituents, John Q. Public. The numbers
    that Ms. Watts gave on statistics, those are harvest numbers.
    That does not indicate activity. I spent over 100 hours in a
    tree stand this year. I harvested one deer. So, many trips up
    and down the interstate, up and down 79, not to this area
    specifically, but areas in Clay County. And so, there can be a
    lot of additional activity from sportsmen that aren't recorded
    in those harvest numbers.
        So, you know, as a sportsman, we're not in favor of giving
    land to, no offense, to the National Park Service. We would
    like this land to be managed by locals. We're also facing a
    senator on the state side that wants to open up wildlife
    management in state forests to offer it to vehicles and ATV
    use. So I know it's not the place for questions, but it's kind
    of like, when will this stop?
        We want to protect our land. We want to use it. So, I know
    I'm starting to run short on time. I would implore you to not
    let this be your legacy to give away West Virginia land. Let's
    keep it. Let's market it for ourselves and for others outside
    to come, but let's work on those boundaries to make them
    smaller so we have less loss.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Berkley. The next speaker is Mr. Joe Brouse.
        Senator Manchin. I do understand harvesting. They don't
    call it hunting for nothing and they don't call fishing
    ``catching'' and so, we understand very much the time put in.
        Yes, sir.
        Mr. Brouse. Joe Brouse, J-o-e B-r-o-u----
        Senator Manchin. Put that, Joe, put that just a little bit,
    twist it up.
        Mr. Brouse. B-r-o-u-s-e.
        Senator Manchin. There you go.
        Mr. Brouse. Okay. I just wanted to say, working on the
    economic development side----
        Senator Manchin. Sure.
        Mr. Brouse. ----one of the most, one of our most available
    opportunities is keeping the businesses that we have and
    allowing them to expand with capital investment. Folks like Mr.
    Johnson and many of the folks in the outdoor economy footprint
    want to employ more people. In many ways, they're
    underemploying and with these visitors coming to the area and
    the economic impact that that will allow, that will happen.
        But the other thing is that so many of their customers are
    folks that respect the flora, the fauna and they're coming here
    for the right reasons to respect, to respect the recreation and
    the outdoors. So, Senators, I want to commend you, both of you,
    for trying to strike the right balance between our heritage and
    between our economic future. It's not the panacea for what ails
    us in a post-, post-,--in the transition economy, but it is a
    big step forward. So thank you very much.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        [Applause.]
        As our next witness comes forward, do you want to call the
    next group?
        Ms. Berkley. Our next set of speakers will be Mr. Thomas
    Campbell, Ms. Heather Johnson, Mr. Roger Wilson, Mr. Larry
    Berry.
        Senator Manchin. If you all would just work your way down
    to the front, and we will continue. Thank you so much for being
    here.
        Ms. Strader. Okay, how close do I need to be? Can you hear
    me?
        Senator Manchin. Yes, loud and clear.
        Ms. Strader. Okay. My name is Lisa Strader, S-t-r-a-d-e-r.
    I'm the Director at Visit Southern West Virginia. We're a nine-
    county tourism bureau here and four of our counties are
    fortunate to have the New River Gorge National River run
    through their boundaries, but I will say that the National
    Parks entities that we have in our area affect all of our nine
    counties.
        As Commissioner Ruby mentioned, you know, tourism is
    growing in our area and it's also in our state but it's also
    growing in our region--$712 million in direct visitor spending
    in 2018, and we support in tourism almost 7,600 jobs. This can,
    with the--obviously we support this resolution. We did, our
    organization also sent our support in as well. We feel like
    this would also, long-term, increase our visitorship, our jobs
    and this is an area that we feel like we have a lot of growth
    in, especially in Southern West Virginia. Thank you for your
    time.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, thank you so much.
        Alright, next witness?
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Campbell. Hello.
        Senator Capito. Hi.
        Mr. Campbell. My name's Thomas Campbell, C-a-m-p-b-e-l-l.
        I've lived in the area for over 7 years and first came to
    the area over 20 years ago. Presently, I am a small business
    owner and a part-time raft guide. I have enjoyed the whitewater
    and outdoor recreation of this state for over three decades and
    worked commercially as a raft guide, fishing guide, mountain
    biking guide, outdoor recreation leader for almost 20 years in
    six states and three countries. I have seen how lands and
    waterways are managed in different areas, and I am opposed to
    the New River Gorge becoming a national park.
        The New River Gorge is a beautiful area and well managed by
    the National Park Service and the multiple outdoor enthusiasts,
    whether they be private or commercial users. Why I am opposed--
    the possibility of user fees and/or permits, even if the
    permits were to be free. People like myself are not looking for
    access restricted for what isn't currently allowed for things
    like campfires, hunting, fishing, hiking, boating and pets.
        While increased tourism would almost certainly benefit my
    business, I, along with others, am concerned with what the
    possible numbers might bring, though I am not opposed to
    increased tourism, again, things like user fees and increased
    restrictions. For instance, certain trails are quite crowded at
    times and I know that parking lots have had to tow vehicles
    with overflow. Currently, the National Park Service manages the
    Gorge and does a great job. They are competent and helpful.
    Likewise, private and commercial boaters, other sportsmen do a
    fine job of policing themselves and keeping the Gorge
    beautiful.
        We have done this for decades and trust you will allow us
    to continue to do so.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Campbell. Thank you all very much.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. We want to thank everybody also for being
    attentive to the time and if they go over a few seconds we are
    basically watching from the people that came before, the woman
    that spoke in favor and him speaking in opposition, we gave a
    little bit of her time to him to make it work out, a balanced
    approach.
        Ms. Johnson. I'm Heather Johnson, owner of River
    Expeditions. I support the new designation as a park and
    preserve as do most local businesses and tourism-related
    entities. This is a logical next step in raising the profile of
    the New River Gorge in West Virginia as a destination. Quite
    simply, it's a no brainer.
        It's disheartening that some opponents of the new
    designation have been propagating fear and misinformation. For
    far too long our area has lagged behind as a result of the ``we
    don't want that here'' mentality. I only hope these few
    dissenters will not disrupt the entire process for those of us
    who stand ready to embrace more visitors to the park and our
    area. And while we contemplate this issue today on the local
    level, the ramifications of our actions will affect our entire
    country for years to come.
        I do not take this issue lightly. For me and 150 of my
    employees, this is our livelihood, not merely a hobby. I'm
    encouraged by the bipartisan support of our Senators and hope
    this new designation comes to pass. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you very much.
        [Applause.]
        As our next witness comes up, Terri, do you want to call
    the next four that you want to come forward?
        Ms. Berkley. Mr. Luke Gilliam, Mr. Matt Wender, Ms. Becky
    Sullivan and Mr. Bill Lehrter.
        Senator Manchin. If you all would work your way down to the
    front, we would appreciate it.
        Thank you, sir, very much for being here.
        Mr. Wilson. The name's Roger Wilson.
        Senator Manchin. Roger Wilson.
        Mr. Wilson. I'm a small business owner in Fayette County,
    also a lifetime----
        Senator Manchin. You can pull that up, the whole thing,
    there you go.
        Mr. Wilson. Also, a lifetime resident of West Virginia,
    lifelong hunter, fisherman, hiker and mushroom hunter and all
    the good stuff. I support this change. I'm sure there are going
    to be some changes to the land, as we talk, but I do support
    it. The hardest thing that I've ever hunted in West Virginia is
    keeping a good job for a long time. I support anything that we
    can help our communities, the little towns of Sandstone or
    Meadow Creek, the places a lot of people don't think about. If
    we can do this, then we can bring opportunities for people to
    create other small businesses. I can't argue against that.
        Thank you so much.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir, very much.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Berry. My name is Larry Berry, and I thank you for
    being allowed to be here today. This is my first meeting, and I
    wish I had attended others.
        Senator Manchin. Larry, get just a little bit closer if you
    will.
        Mr. Berry. Okay.
        Senator Manchin. There you go.
        Mr. Berry. Can you hear me now?
        Senator Manchin. That is better.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Berry. I thank you for being here. I'm a wildlife
    biologist, and I'm old. I originally made comments on the New
    River Gorge National River and one of our main concerns was the
    continuation of hunters for the sportsmen of West Virginia and
    it was a great concern at that time and it still is a great
    concern. This is almost 40 years in the change. And actually,
    I've dreaded this day for fear of that, and I'm sure our
    Representatives are going to help protect that portion of our
    heritage that we enjoy.
        I'm not aware of any conflicts between hunters and tourists
    on the Gorge area. Somebody else may have information there,
    but I'm not aware of any. I would be against any restriction of
    hunting. Hunting is a wildlife management tool and that tool
    should be used. It's the cheapest tool you'll ever find and
    hunters do that work. You don't have to do anything.
        I don't say anything about the park, I just say about
    hunting and its use and that's my main concern. I know in
    Alaska, Alaskans, Native Alaskans can hunt parks and I consider
    myself a Native West Virginian, even though I'm not the right
    color and don't fit the definition, my great-great-great-
    grandfather lived in Greenbrier County and helped settle those
    areas there. And I just wish that would continue. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        [Applause.]
        Sir, before you get started. We have four or five seats
    empty if there are any ladies in the back that would like to
    come forward or anybody that is having a hard time standing. If
    you can raise your hand if you have a seat beside you. A few
    seats have opened up. I see two, three there. I have three here
    and you have one. Okay, we have seven seats in here. So if you
    want to come forward.
        Also, if I can ask you all, as we wrap up the ones who have
    already pre-signed up, if there is anyone in the audience that
    would like to speak that hasn't, raise your hand and we will
    have someone come around, get your name and then put you on the
    list, if you don't mind, if you want to do that. I want to make
    sure we can accommodate everybody possible.
        Yes, Ali, if you all, when they raise their hand, go around
    and take a list, and we will get them to sign. Okay?
        So, with that being said, anymore? We have more seats,
    three more seats back here. They will pass them up. You keep
    your hands up and they will come to you. Well, you don't have
    to keep them up that long, but keep them up. They will come
    find you.
        Sir, I am sorry, you go ahead, please.
        Mr. Gilliam. My name is Luke Gilliam, G-i-l-l-i-a-m.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Luke.
        Mr. Gilliam. I'm a resident of Fayette County. I live
    outside of Fayetteville, am an avid hunter and fisherman, and
    my concern is the portion of this property that's going to be
    no hunting allowed. As the biologist said, that is what helps
    control our game population and stuff. If you have, like we
    have a lot of issues now with coyotes and if people aren't
    allowed to hunt and trap and even in that areas----
        Senator Manchin. Yes.
        Mr. Gilliam. ----they're going to get that much more
    populated. Coons, racoons, and stuff, then you start getting
    more rabies, effects of that and when it starts coming into
    people's homes then they want somebody to do something about
    it. Well, they've stopped all the hunting and that's the best
    management for these animals and stuff. And my concern with
    down there, they say the property is steeper than a cow's face,
    well, why would you stop them hunting if you can't use it for
    anything else because it's too steep? What are they going to
    use it for?
        [Applause.]
        If it's unusable and unaccessible, why stop people from
    hunting? If it can't be used for anything else because,
    apparently, it's too steep. I mean, I hunt and fish down there.
    I have a cabin on Hawks Nest above the dam, and I was wondering
    if that is going to be taken away from me.
        Senator Manchin. I don't think. I mean, the things you are
    stating right now, we will get answers for you as your
    statement is being made.
        Mr. Gilliam. Okay, you know, because there's several cabins
    on that river down there that people access by boat and camp
    and stay in and stuff.
        Senator Manchin. Let me just, I don't want to take away
    from your time here, but let me just say this. Any of you all
    when you are making your statement, if there is a question that
    you are asking for clarification, you make that as your
    statement and we will make sure that is in the record and get
    back to you with an answer on that.
        Go ahead. I am sorry.
        Mr. Gilliam. Okay.
        Senator Manchin. Twenty seconds left.
        Mr. Gilliam. Okay. I just think if they--I don't know why
    that has to be----
        Senator Manchin. Sure.
        Mr. Gilliam. ----that portion has to be taken away from
    hunting. It can still be upgraded, but why it has to be taken
    away from the hunters when it's, as they say, it's too steep to
    do anything with anyway.
        Senator Manchin. Right.
        Mr. Gilliam. So if nobody can access it, let the hunters
    hunt. That's what I say. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. We will find out. Thank you, sir, very
    much.
        [Applause.]
        Just pull the whole thing. It will come down. Just push
    down hard. There you go.
        Ms. Sullivan. Can you hear me?
        Senator Manchin. Yes.
        Senator Capito. Yes.
        Ms. Sullivan. Hi, I'm Becky Sullivan, B-e-c-k-y S-u----
        Senator Manchin. Get closer, Becky.
        Ms. Sullivan. ----l-l-i-v-a-n.
        I am, I grew up in Fayetteville. I live in Oak Hill now.
    I'm currently the Director of the New River Gorge CVB and the
    President of the Fayette County Chamber of Commerce. As a
    representative of these two organizations, we do support the
    designation of the New River Gorge National Park and Preserve.
    The reason being, Chelsea Ruby stated, the momentum is growing.
    Let's keep that momentum going. The numbers have proven the
    tourism boost and the economic development, and that's why we
    stand behind it.
        Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        Sir, before you start--do you want to call, do you have
    another four you want to call, Terri, so they can work their
    way down?
        Ali, did you get--there are some gentlemen back in the back
    that had their hands raised on this side. Did you get them?
        Ali [from Senator Manchin's staff]. I did. I got four. If
    there is anybody additional----
        Senator Manchin. Anybody else that wants to talk after we
    get done with the--just raise your hand and we will get to you.
        Okay, Terri, the next four?
        Ms. Berkley. Yes, our next speakers are Jenna Grayson,
    Jeffrey Proctor, Thomas Gerencer and Logan Bockrath.
        Senator Manchin. Okay, please work your way to the sides,
    and you continue, sir. I am sorry, start.
        Mr. Lehrter. Okay, so my name is Bill Lehrter, L-e-h-r-t-e-
    r. I'm a raft guide, a fishing guide, a hunting guide and a
    member of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. With the National
    Park Service facing severe budget shortfalls, it seems
    extremely likely that the designation change will bring user
    fees to the local outdoor community. The NPS faces a $12
    billion maintenance backlog, and the most recent budget
    included a $580 million cut to their funding.
        In response to these funding problems, the NPS recently
    raised entrance fees by $5 to $10 in many of its most popular
    parks. White Sands, the subject of a recent economic study used
    to support this change, raised its entry fee by $25 after
    becoming a national park. Kayaking in the Everglades is $35 a
    day. Many of us in this room pay $25 a year to enter the Grand
    Canyon lottery. Now it's been stated that no fees would occur,
    but I think that the increased attendance that we expect would
    change that and that the NPS would see private boating as a
    revenue source.
        So, in all, 117 National Park Service sites charge entry
    fees and I've been to a lot of those and happily paid them, but
    I believe that this place is different. Now, I moved here and
    bought a home in Fayette County because of its incredibly
    unique public land opportunities and the vibrant outdoor
    community that has grown here. Ours is a culture of after work
    climbing and biking trips and a culture of people who guide a
    commercial rafting trip and then go back out for another run
    afterwards with their friends. Our household eats wild game
    that I harvest within this national park.
        Now we don't make a lot of money as guides, but we're rich
    in resources and recreational opportunities and we need to ask
    ourselves if we're willing to trade Fayetteville for Gatlinburg
    or if the local companies changing marketing materials for
    national river to national park is worth forever changing this
    place we love. The National Park Service was created to protect
    unique landscapes, not as an economic development tool.
        Thanks.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you very much. Well said.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Wender. Senator Capito, Senator Manchin.
        Senator Manchin. Matt, good seeing you.
        Mr. Wender. Thanks for joining us.
        My name is Matt Wender, W-e-n-d-e-r. Formerly, I was a
    County Commissioner in Fayette County for 18 years. In Fayette
    County we're certainly grateful for the good tourism industry
    that we have. But make no doubt about it, coal is the backbone
    of Southern West Virginia, certainly the backbone of Fayette
    County as well. 2012 was the best year that we had for coal
    production in Fayette County. From 2012 to 2015, the industry
    declined. Since 2015, it's been in a virtual free fall, perhaps
    today we're doing a third as much coal business as we used to.
        All of which begs the fact that we must continue to try to
    diversify our economic base, but at the same time let's not
    ignore the one part of our economy that is doing very well, the
    tourism industry. Let's do all we can to further enhance that
    and give that industry the best potential it has for future
    growth which is so critical to Fayette County and all of
    Southern West Virginia.
        I certainly urge you to make the New River Gorge a National
    Park and Preserve.
        Thank you very much.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Matt.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Grayson. Hello. Hi, my name is----
        Senator Manchin. Pull it down a little bit. There you go.
        Ms. Grayson. My name is Jenna Grayson. I am a transplant to
    West Virginia. I'm also a member of the Generation New River
    Gorge Board, and as a Board Member I personally will state that
    I am in favor of the park. Like this gentleman said before me,
    tourism is so huge for this area and we believe that it would
    increase jobs and increase people's opportunities in this area.
        When I moved to West Virginia I moved to the area because
    of the river but recently found out how very difficult it is to
    find a job here. I took a service-based position with WVU but
    that was pretty much all I could find. I think this would be a
    fabulous opportunity to give this area a boost in the economy
    and also bring young people into the area to stay, like myself.
        So, thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you so much, thank you.
        [Applause.]
        Do we have--hold on--Terri, do we have more you want to
    call forward?
        Ms. Berkley. Mr. Larry Case, Kevin Terrell, Dave Arnold and
    Chris Gill.
        Senator Manchin. If everybody will work their way to the
    sides at the front.
        Please start.
        Mr. Proctor. My name is Jeff Proctor. P-r-o-c-t-o-r.
    Senator Manchin and Senator Capito, thank you, and
    Superintendent Watts, thank you.
        I would like to say that I totally support the suggested
    change that's on the table right now. I think it would help the
    economy and I think that the area, as everyone has already
    pointed out, is struggling and we really, really need the jobs
    that are in the area. I also would like to give my support to
    what an amazing job the Park Service has done over these 40
    years, and I hope that we can continue to get them financial
    support to continue to go take this to the next step.
        This is, kind of, will shock Rick, but I would like to also
    say, everything in his speech, I totally agree with.
        [Laughter.]
        There's no need for me to pound the drum because I only
    have 20 seconds left, but thank you very much.
        Senator Manchin. Thanks, Jeff.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Gerencer. Hi, I'm Tom Gerencer. I'm a resident of
    Fayetteville. Despite the orange, I am not a hunter. I'm a
    journalist, so I'm about as far from a hunter as you can get.
    In fact, I was shot at on a trail a mile from Fayetteville, a
    guy took a sound shot at me from about 50 feet away through a
    rhododendron thicket.
        I would actually like to see hunting limited near our
    heavily used trails, but surprisingly I carpooled here today
    with two hunters who feel strongly the same way that I do. They
    don't feel that this is their land, and they think hunting
    should be limited near busy areas. We looked at the map
    together and it is great that you have worked so hard to allow
    hunting in most of the planned preserve. So hats off to you.
        But those hunters, and lots of hunters in this area, hunt
    on remote lands near the river where nobody hikes that would be
    banned from hunting under this plan. You said today that these
    areas are too remote to hunt, but that's untrue. This hunter I
    know spent six hours dragging a deer out of the woods there
    this year. He uses that land daily. In the most obese state in
    the country, I feel we should encourage that.
        I've heard there's lots of other places they can hunt.
    That's untrue. When you get out of work and you've got an hour
    of daylight, you hunt nearby or you don't hunt at all. This is
    everyone's land, including people like me who don't hunt, but
    it's the hunter's land too. You're talking about changing their
    way of life. Hunting is already declining from an article I
    wrote for the Boston Globe about Lyme disease. Hunting bans in
    Massachusetts have caused massive increases in overpopulation
    of deer and a 6,000 percent increase in Lyme disease in 30
    years.
        Nobody could argue that we don't need an economic boost.
    That's already happening with most user groups in the park
    increasing and tourism increasing. A national park would help
    but for our health, our neighbors and our self-respect and as
    much as I am not a hunter, we owe it to ourselves to respect
    and preserve the tradition of hunting in these areas as much as
    possible. It's recreation and a way to feed their families.
        Thank you for the work you're doing, and I know from
    listening to you all that you'll do the right thing.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Bockrath. I'm just going to take it down instead of
    trying to raise the mic.
        Senator Manchin. Yes.
        Mr. Bockrath. I want to use a couple minutes of my time to
    clarify some----
        Senator Manchin. Give your name.
        Mr. Bockrath. Oh, sorry. My name's Logan Bockrath. A couple
    minutes of time to clarify the panel here. First off, Lizzie
    Watts, Superintendent Watts, said the park boundary on the
    Lower Gorge area was at Nuttallburg. This will be the second
    time I've corrected her. It's off by two miles on the river
    left and one mile on the river right. So she's off there.
        Second, with the question on archery in the firearms buffer
    zones. That is not a federal law. What we got was a map from
    the National Park Service that was given to the Senator's
    office that showed thousands of acres of private land closed to
    hunting as well as anywhere within the buffer zone, closed to
    hunting which is not according to state law and DNR which
    states you can bow hunt there.
        Second and most surprisingly, I seem to be the only person
    here who has compared the numbers of the New River Gorge
    visitor numbers in the park versus the commercial river users.
    There's no correlation that will save rafting by increasing the
    park visitors. In fact, between 1990 and the 2010s, park
    visitation increased by 12 percent, yet, the rafting industry
    was down by 52 percent.
        If we're using this to save the rafting industry in the
    process throwing hunters under the table, it's not worth it and
    not guaranteed.
        Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        All the things that you stated, were correcting, we will
    double check and basically get back to you to confirm or if we
    have adjustments to be made. Okay?
        Mr. Bockrath. It's correct.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        Mr. Bockrath. Thank you.
        [Laughter.]
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. Who do we have next? Okay.
        Mr. Terrell. Hi, my name is Kevin Terrell. That's T-e-r-r-
    e-l-l. I'm a resident of Fayetteville, as I have been for about
    the last 11 years, but have worked in the outdoor industry for
    about 20 years both in this country and in others.
        While I do agree that the change of the name of the park
    would help, I worked in Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation
    Area when they changed the name to national park. That boosted
    visitorship and that's a great thing, bringing more people to
    this area. I do also agree that we need to more carefully
    consider the usage of the land, like Tom Gerencer was saying,
    some of this land isn't used for anything except for some guys
    that take rafts down the river, park up on the side, do some
    hunting and then bring those deer down to the rafts. But I do
    agree that hunting should be restricted in some of the high-use
    areas like right around the Long Point Trail and some other
    areas near my home.
        So I hope you consider everyone's input, and I know you'll
    make a good decision for us. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Case. Hear me?
        Senator Manchin. Yes.
        Mr. Case. My name is Larry Case. I'm pretty nervous. I
    don't want to say something really fast. It's Case, C-a-s-e,
    like the knife, okay?
        This is hard to do. There's a bunch of people in this
    audience and in this little community. Fayetteville is a small
    community, and I got a lot of friends here that are on the
    opposite end of this spectrum, okay? And Rick's one of them and
    he's my friend and Dave Arnold and Jeff and everybody behind
    me, they're not going to have the same opinion as me. I'm
    telling you, it's a hard thing to do.
        Senator Manchin. Sure.
        Mr. Case. But as a hunter I feel like this has to be said,
    okay? Rick, you're almost ashamed of hunters for wanting this
    area, okay? I want to make the point, I would be ashamed as a
    hunter if we did not come out and speak out about this, okay?
        [Applause.]
        We cannot, and I know you think it's terrible if you're for
    this bill, stand and say it's okay if you want to take 4,385
    acres from us which, truthfully, most, some of us think that
    it's more than that, okay? You seem to might want to make the
    point about harvest records. I retired as a DNR law enforcement
    captain. I was in the DNR 36 years. I know a little bit about
    it, okay? The numbers you want to quote about harvested game
    are just the ones that were checked in. Believe it or not,
    sometimes things don't get checked in. I know it's hard to
    believe, okay?
        Secondly, I don't know about you all----
        [Applause.]
        I don't kill something every time I go. I don't. So you
    can't base it on two bear, nine turkeys and you know, whatever,
    okay? Sportsmen, hunters, in this area, we were promised this
    would stay open to hunting in 1978, as you all well know, when
    this area was formed, okay? That was a major sticking point
    when the first park, the National River was formed, okay? And
    we'd like to see it stay that way and thank you for the chance
    to speak.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. Dave hold up one second, Dave, if you
    would.
        Do we have other people you want to call forward?
        Ms. Berkley. Mr. Kenny Parker, Mr. Rob Rappold, Mr. Roy
    Smith and Mr. Michael Chennault.
        Senator Manchin. If you all want to work your way down to
    the sides of the front, and then we will have Dave and then we
    will just come in order, okay?
        Dave, are you ready?
        Mr. Arnold. Barry, are you in this room? That changes what
    I'm going to say.
        My name is Dave Arnold, D-a-v-e A-r-n-o-l-d. The reason I
    was asking for Barry was I thought he was going to make this
    comment but--in this role, I'm talking as a Board Member of the
    West Virginia Hospitality and Travel Association. The West
    Virginia Hospitality and Travel Association is a statewide
    organization on travel. I was President of the Tourism Business
    Sector of that for a long time. I was Chairman for 12 years,
    and I'm now a board member.
        I'll read you, real quick, this has been submitted as
    testimony, but I'll read you the first paragraph.
        The first sentence says, ``West Virginia Hospitality is in
    favor of the bill to designate the New River Gorge in West
    Virginia as the New River Gorge National Park and Preserve.
    Tourism is growing in West Virginia and this will be another
    tool in the tool box to help us continue growing. Tourism can
    help diversify our economy and transfer this region in the near
    future. We need to take advantage of the momentum of the
    tourism industry in seeing this.''
        With that said, I'll take my hat off and put my own
    personal comments in. First off, tourism is not the answer.
    Tourism is just a piece of the pie. You know, it's part of what
    we need to do to diversify this economy. There are layers upon
    layers upon layers. Hunting is one of the layers. I'm a crazed
    hunter. I hunt 60, 70 days a year. Coal is part of it. There's
    many, many things that are part of this.
        The second thing I want to say is that I have had a great
    relationship with the National Park Service staff. There's been
    some bashing of staff, and I think they're phenomenal. There's
    no one I would rather see come around the corner if we have
    pinned boats, or something worse, than the National Park
    Rangers.
        I also want to say that many of us are suffering the exact
    same thing. Hunting is in a huge decline. Anybody that's out
    there on opening day knows that ten years ago you heard twice
    as many shots as you do in rifle season as you do today. We
    need to help hunting. We need to help rafting. Rafting is in
    decline. And quite frankly, the population of West Virginia is
    in decline.
        So, I see my red light. I'll just leave it with this. There
    is no such thing as standing still. You're either falling
    backwards or you're moving forward, and hopefully we move
    forward and hopefully we compromise and work this out. Thank
    you.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        Mr. Parker. Hi, my name is Kenny Parker, P-a-r-k-e-r. I'm
    one of the owners of Water Stone Outdoors in Fayetteville and
    I'm also the Vice President of the New River Alliance of
    Climbers, our local climber, non-profit group.
        These are my concerns. First of all, I think this bill
    should include language and funding for infrastructure for
    clean water to help make this, if you're going to call it a
    national park, make it more like a national park that we would
    have been accustomed to with, you know, clean rivers and
    streams.
        Number two, having been involved with the development of
    climbing in the area from the beginning, I see the issues we
    already have with access and parking and I would like to see
    language and funding in the bill which would help facilitate
    acquisition and improve access and parking to the existing
    areas which already see lots of use.
        And third, I think any language in this bill which creates
    the perception of winners and losers amongst the existing user
    groups, who all have gotten along fine for years, and as a
    hunter myself, I don't want to see increase in the divisiveness
    amongst the local community as far as these user groups. I
    don't want there to be the perception that, you know, the
    whitewater or the climbers got benefits while the hunters lost
    because we all get along fine and I think it's important that
    we work toward a cohesive relationship between the various user
    groups.
        Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        Mr. Rappold. Good morning. I'm Rob Rappold, Mayor of
    Beckley and current Chairman of the New River Gorge Regional
    Development Authority. I'd like to begin by thanking our
    Senators for their attention, not only to this very important
    issue and project but for everything you do for Southern West
    Virginia and Beckley, particularly. So thank you very much.
        I'm only here to say that the Beckley Common Council, our
    seven-member council, voted unanimously to, on the resolution
    in support of this designation. We do that primarily because
    we're on the New River highland. We're six miles if you drive
    down Batoff Mountain from New River. So we're very close by and
    the historical data that has been provided that indicates that
    this designation gives such a nice boost to visitors and
    tourism.
        So with that, you have the full support of myself and the
    Common Council, the City of Beckley and the New River Gorge
    Regional Development Authority. Thank you for your efforts.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Mayor.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. Sir, one second, if you will.
        Do you want to go ahead, Terri? Four more?
        Ms. Berkley. Mr. Joe Aucremanne, Mr. Michael Chennault, Mr.
    Chris Gill.
        Mr. Gill. I'm Chris Gill. I've decided not to speak. A lot
    of the things that I was going to address----
        Senator Manchin. No problem. Then you need two more names.
        Ms. Berkley. Mr. John Skaggs, Mr. Roy Blankenship.
        Senator Manchin. If you all wish to speak just work your
    way down to the front, the side of the front.
        Yes, sir, go ahead, I am sorry.
        Mr. Smith. Ah, yes. Hello, my name is Roy Smith.
        Senator Manchin. Closer, Roy.
        Mr. Smith. My name is Roy Smith. I worked for the Park
    Service seasonal for six years back in like 2006 to 2010, and I
    love our area. I love the National River the way it is and it
    seems like hunting brings about 350,000 people to the area and
    it brings $270 million to the state economy. And it seems like
    what these seasonal jobs and such, even for the rafting and
    stuff, it just seems like, you know, it's good for the area and
    stuff but it's just, kind of, seasonal, you know, the rafting
    industry is seasonal.
        It just seems like we need the protection for hunters and
    stuff in the area because it's all year long and stuff for
    hunting. And it just seems like I'm, kind of, worried about
    personal property taxes for the area and stuff if it becomes a
    national park and stuff, just the taxes and stuff, I think
    they'll, kind of, go up steeper and suffer the area and stuff
    and I'm kind of worried about personal property taxes.
        Senator Manchin. Sure.
        Mr. Smith. And I'm worried about, even like fracking and
    natural gas and stuff in the national park and stuff. Those are
    kind of things I'm kind of concerned about, you know, around
    the river and stuff.
        Senator Manchin. That is not allowed.
        Mr. Smith. You know, I just afraid, natural gas and stuff
    is going to, kind of, you know, the money and everything and
    stuff, you know, West Virginia wants money from natural gas and
    fracking and I'm just concerned about those issues in the
    national park. Thank you so much.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Chennault. Hello.
        Senator Capito. Hi.
        Mr. Chennault. My name's Michael Chennault, in French, la
    Francais, it's called ``Shen-oh''. I come to speak for the
    little guys that can't speak for theirself, but also for the
    hunters back here. If you can see, I do hunt. I eat what I
    hunt. I skin it. I do tanning hides and everything like that I
    take care of it.
        But my main concern is today is along the railroad tracks,
    the highways and the power lines, the power lines--used to go
    kill some nice bucks on the power lines because there's a lot
    of feed in the honeysuckle and the people at the Forestry
    Service ought of paid attention to this along the New River
    Gorge. They come and spray poison in 20-foot streams on both
    sides of the tracks. In the road they probably spray poison
    everywhere on the roads and both sides of the tracks and the
    power lines, they spray like crazy. And this gets into our
    water too, also, our drinking water.
        But it kills all the vegetation and the bees are out there,
    in there and they're eating honey and stuff and I think, in
    fact, it wipes out the bees. There used to be bees in Chimney
    Corner in the rock cliff down there. Original honey in the
    rock, you might say. And I really am concerned with all I've
    seen the bee population decline. I know a lot of people don't
    like bees. They get stung by them. They think they're vicious
    little things sometimes, but they're very necessary for the
    circle of life.
        I also represent the Algonquin People and our Chief
    Stanley--of the Eastern Coast and they come back, slip back and
    they hunt in the Gorge in their ancestral hunting grounds, but
    you won't know it. But we like to hunt quietly. Even a lot of
    these hunters here, they don't see them coming. I walked up and
    had game would go about me. I'd be laying camouflage. I don't
    like to wear red sometimes. I know it's illegal, but that makes
    it more of a target sometimes. It's for the game warden to
    fine, I guess, but that's okay with me.
        But I hunt the way I like to hunt. I like stealth, but I
    also love what I hunt. I eat it til the last bone, the last
    gnarliest bone and I process its hide and I use every bit of
    the animal. I don't waste it. Now, I've heard a lot of
    sportsmen hunt for coon and stuff and what they do is they
    shoot 'em and leave 'em lay or throw 'em away. They discard the
    animal. They butcher deer and waste 'em like you wouldn't
    believe. But I don't like this park thing because--down yonder
    by the Gauley River I know every rock in that place, the ridges
    and everything in there, all the persimmon groves there and
    everything's being wiped out, different things in there.
        I don't know if the Forestry Service looks down in those
    places--that goes through to see what's in their territory. If
    you own it, look at it and look at everything in the territory,
    but my people were French trappers before this place became a
    United States and I want to see hunting preserved. I'm in
    mourning with a black hat for every foot of hunting ground
    lost. It should not be.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Chennault. Have a good day.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. Just pull that down there. There you go.
        Mr. Aucremanne. My name is Joe Aucremanne. That's spelled,
    A-u-c-r-e-m-a-n-n-e. I have lived in Summers County for over 41
    years, since I got out of Morgantown, and I'm a member of the
    West Virginia Farm Bureau, farmer and for many years, an avid
    hunter. And it's not that I'm against hunting, it's just that
    now I'm happy to be in the woods. I've been up and down the
    river. If I tried to name all of the places in the Gorge that
    I've visited or spent time, I probably couldn't name all of
    'em.
        So I feel that just as much as anyone here, I have a right
    to voice my opinion and I think we'd all agree that West
    Virginia is one of the greatest places in this country and the
    Gorge is a very special place whether you're a hunter, a
    tourist, a guide or kayaker or a climber. So we're here today
    to discuss whether or not the Gorge designation as a national
    park is appropriate. It certainly would let the nation know
    that the Gorge is part of a very select number of localities in
    this country that deserves the designation of national park.
        Now if it wasn't for the restriction on hunting, I don't
    think that anyone here would oppose that. I can say as far as
    hunting goes that the least restrictive alternative for hunting
    and fishing is the best for all concerned. There, it seems to
    me that there are places that may be in the restricted area now
    that could be taken out and opened back up to hunting. I'm sure
    that the Park Service and the Committee and DNR will be looking
    into that. At the same time, if we have a national park
    designation by law there can be no hunting.
        Let's leave those places that are heavily trafficked
    whether it's the Endless Wall, Cunard put in or the take outs,
    or up at Grandview or Long Point or places like that, we'll
    keep them as a park. Everything else should be a preserve. And
    if there was enough money, I would ask that the Committee tell
    the Park Service to buy 5,000 or 6,000 extra acres and open 'em
    to hunting.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Skaggs. My name is John Skaggs, S-k-a-g-g-s. I'm a
    river guide, rock climbing guide, assistant pastor in the area.
    I've grown up in North Fayette County all of my life and my dad
    took me hunting and fishing--take me out of school and take me
    hunting and fishing just for fun--but I love the area, love
    West Virginia.
        Some of the concerns that I have is I do think we need
    economic growth in Fayette County, I understand that. But if we
    doubled the attendance in our national park, national parks are
    there to preserve the land, preserve the access to that land
    and a fear that I have is that looking ahead is will the
    increased attendance in our national parks increase
    environmental impact, I've seen that over the 20, 30 years of
    being in the Gorge in some of the areas. If we increase that,
    then I appreciate our Park Service and their preservation of
    those areas, but will that increase regulation? I'm sure it
    will increase commercial fees and those kinds of things.
        Not too bad if you're a large organization or a large
    company, but if you're a smaller company or smaller guiding
    service, some of those fees start to weed out some of the
    smaller companies. But those are some of the fears and concerns
    that I would have with increased fees, increased regulation and
    then also, perhaps, decrease in access. As an avid hunter and
    fisherman, I think that once land is lost it's not going to
    come back as far as access and I think responsibility in some
    of the high traffic areas could be an opportunity for
    restriction, but I hate to see any of our land being taken away
    as far as access for hunting.
        Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir, very much.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Berkley. While our next speaker is coming up, we'd ask
    Mr. Charles T. Earehart, Dr. Burnette and Ms. Angie Rosser to
    come down to the front.
        Senator Manchin. If you all would come to the front on the
    sides there, and we will be prepared to go.
        Yes, sir?
        Mr. Blankenship. Senators, thank you. I'm Roy Blankenship.
    I speak under several hats.
        Senator Manchin. Roy Blankenship? It is Blankenship.
        Mr. Blankenship. Blankenship.
        Senator Manchin. Blankenship, okay.
        Mr. Blankenship. I run a small company on the New River. I
    have for 10 years. I've guided for 23 years. I am for tourism,
    but also fear this. You know, I grew up here, got 23 years,
    almost half my life, hunted about 45 days, I was on the water
    90 days.
        One of my questions as a small guide, will there be fees
    added for river usage? I have clients that come down. They fish
    with us, some of the other guides, and then they take their own
    boats out. Will they have to apply for permits? You know, some
    people get off work, they decide to roll out, short notice, so
    that's a concern.
        I also speak as a hunter, I have friends that bear hunt. We
    don't have a whole lot of deer and we feel that's part of the
    reason. Will the bear hunters still be allowed to use dogs in
    the area?--is one of the concerns that they're having.
        For myself, I'm also a schoolteacher and I'm concerned with
    kids. I understand a lot of this is about money for the area
    and I am for tourism, you know, I work in that, but also see it
    as a fluctuating industry. We have three major highways and
    railroads are here but yet, we're ranked 49th, I think, under
    Forbes as an economy to do business here. You know, there's
    more that needs to be done other than tourism. I'm for tourism,
    but there's a lot of other things we need to look at as well,
    you know, when you start just relying on one industry.
        That's all I have to say.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Earehart. Hello, I'm Charles Thomas Earehart. I've
    known Joe Manchin and his wife at First Baptist Church when
    they've been there. I met Ms. Capito at a fundraiser thing in
    New River Park, the first time I met her. And Rick Johnson and
    his wife, they go to church with me, in the same church.
        Anyway, I love all these guys. Mr. Rappold, Larry Berry.
    Mr. Berry is a wonderful retired DNR guy, Department of Natural
    Resources, and he knows what my problem is, the Calvin Price
    State Forest suddenly got impacted by Nicky Joe Rahall's
    liberal group. They closed it down. Spice Ridge Trail is a
    historical trail going from, it starts over in Callaghan, goes
    up through near Sherwood Lake and Moncove Lake, goes across
    through Spice Ridge, goes through Little Creek, across the
    mountain to Marlinton. The Indians used it. It's part of the
    Indian trail that went across Route 6 interstate. It's part of
    that trail that went west.
        The National Forest people came into our hunting camp. We
    had it leased since 1935. It was three acres in the middle of
    Calvin Price State Forest. There's about four of 'em came in.
    It was two DNR people. They ate dinner with us and they drank
    coffee and told us that they was going to put a gate on the
    trail to keep people from going up the trail, causing problems,
    some cans and bottles and stuff and partying. Alright, they
    told us we would get a key to that gate. It was only leasings,
    Calvin Price State Forest since 1935.
        When New River Land Company owned it, they leased it. New
    River Land Company sold it to the Department of Natural
    Resources, West Virginia, using hunting and fishing license
    money. At the same time they did, it was near the same time
    that Plum Orchard Lake was funded by the same money, hunting
    and fishing license money of West Virginia.
        This lady here, she works for a good company but she's not
    for the sportsmen of West Virginia. She's got a job to make
    money and she's not going to support the hunters and fishermen
    of West Virginia. Rick is making----
        Senator Manchin. Sir? Sir, your time----
        Mr. Earehart. I'm not watching the red light, Mr. Manchin,
    because I'm trying--well, I'll just talk to these people----
        Senator Manchin. No, no, sir. Sir?
        Mr. Earehart. Anyway, you all run me off.
        Senator Manchin. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
        Mr. Earehart. They stole our trails----
        Senator Manchin. No, no. This is, we are being fair for
    everybody. You have gone over a whole minute.
        Mr. Earehart. Mr. Manchin?
        Senator Manchin. You are welcome to stay afterwards, sir,
    but you have a gentleman waiting to speak.
        Mr. Earehart. I've been waiting since--you turned the mic
    off----
        Senator Manchin. No, we didn't turn the mic off.
        [Authorities escort Mr. Earehart out of the room.]
        Senator Manchin. Please sir, come on up, if you will.
        Mr. Earehart. Mr. Manchin doesn't want me to talk.
        Senator Manchin. No, we want you to talk. We just want to
    let everybody else talk too, sir.
        Mr. Earehart. I've been waiting here----
        Senator Manchin. You can talk.
        Mr. Earehart. All I've got to say is, it's a legal thing
    taken away from us. Rick's got a good job----
        Senator Manchin. Sir, if you would move on up, come on up.
        Mr. Earehart. [Inaudible.]
        Senator Manchin. Go ahead, sir.
        Dr. Burnette. Hi.
        Senator Manchin. Is it turned on? How do we turn----
        Dr. Burnette. Hello. Hi, I'm Dr. Greg Burnette, B-u-r-n-e-
    t-t----
        Senator Manchin. Doctor, if you would hold that up close to
    you.
        Dr. Burnette. B-u-r-n-e-t-t-e. I'm a DNR Commissioner, but
    I want to make it known that I'm not speaking for the DNR or
    the Commission. Senator Manchin, Senator Capito, thank you.
        I'm speaking as a sportsman for 62 years in West Virginia.
    First, I'm against taking away any hunting for the citizens.
    It's part of our heritage. Also, at age 62, I know those
    decisions are above my pay grade and sometimes I see the
    writing on the wall.
        I want to throw out a term, mitigation. We have 77,000
    acres. If 7,000 are taken away, can that be mitigated? Through
    habitat enhancement, additional property? If we're going to
    take it away from the hunters, let's give them something in
    return. That would, yeah, habitat enhancement, would increase
    the game numbers, deer, bear, turkey. It would also give time
    or give a habitat for critically endangered bird species,
    yellow-winged warblers, cerulean warbler. It would help the
    hunter, plus it would help the bird-watchers and hikers. It
    would be a win-win for everyone if that could be taken into
    consideration.
        I don't know the law, don't know the legality, but that's
    what lawyers are paid for. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Doctor.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Berkley. As our next speaker is coming, we'd like the
    following speakers to get ready--Mr. John Kauff, Mr. Mitchell
    Smith and Mr. Brad Jarrell.
        Ms. Rosser. Hello, I'm Angie Rosser, R-o-s-s-e-r, here
    representing the West Virginia Rivers Coalition. Thank you,
    Senators, for hosting this field hearing. It's really
    important, and I see how much you're valuing the public input
    here today. So very important for us here and exciting for us
    to see this effort to elevate this special, iconic place, this
    New River Gorge on a higher scale, something that we need to do
    more of in West Virginia and recognizing that our rivers and
    the outdoor recreational opportunities they attract is a
    valuable asset for economic development and diversification,
    something that we need to happen--an all-hands-on-deck effort
    to figure out what the future of our state and economic future
    will be here, especially in Southern West Virginia.
        So I applaud your efforts and making and using this bill as
    a vehicle for that. And also acknowledging that for generations
    we have used this land to forage, hunt, fish, swim, hike, bird
    watch, boat, rock climb and bike and to hear that you are
    taking into consideration how to balance all of those uses in a
    responsible and fair way is also heartening.
        What we're hearing is that the benefit of this is increased
    visitation. When we--and double-digit increases, okay. Our two
    concerns about that is the environmental footprint, the impact,
    and that we have the resources to protect and preserve the
    resource and also to preserve the visitor experience, that we
    are making sure, I mean, it's been mentioned already, currently
    people can't find parking spots at Endless Wall or at the Glade
    Creek put in. They're parking outside the designated area. That
    results in more litter, more sedimentation. That compromises
    both the visitor experience and environmental health.
        So our question is, you know, what is the analysis in terms
    of how are we going to absorb and respond to this increased
    visitation? How do we make sure that Ms. Watts has the
    resources she needs in terms of staffing, in terms of
    infrastructure to help adapt to this increase? And how can we
    make this park, this place, better than it is now? How can this
    bill be an opportunity to make it better than it ever was
    before in terms of a visitor experience and possibly an
    expansion of the park so we have more for everybody to go
    around?
        Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. Just pick that up a little bit, John.
    There you go. You can pull that down if you want to. Okay.
        Mr. Kauff. John Kauff, K-a-u-f-f.
        I'm a lifelong resident of Fayette County in Fayetteville,
    West Virginia, and I'm opposed to the redesignation and the
    reason being is because, lifelong hunter, but one of the big
    things is, is for one thing, just to, kind of, caveat on her,
    to maximize the exposure to the designation is the hunters use
    the Park Service, or the park, in the fall and the wintertime.
    Well, why not, you know, capitalize on that because that's when
    you would be, you know, the summertime is when the rafters and
    the rock climbers and all that. You would be capitalizing on
    the hunters from all over the country in the summer and then
    that circled area, I use that during the hunting season. Who
    uses that during hunting season? I mean, and then a lot of the
    hunters have already left because they, you know, they feel
    like we're not being heard, but I just wanted to say that.
        Senator Manchin. Oh no, you are being heard.
        Mr. Kauff. Alright.
        Senator Manchin. We appreciate you coming up, sir, thank
    you.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Smith. Hello, I'm Mitchell Smith. I'm a----
        Senator Manchin. Mitchell, hold that up closer to you.
        Mr. Smith. I'm a property owner on the river, on the New
    River itself. I would like clarification over what rights and
    restrictions are going to be, you know, implemented to private
    owners, you know, for our property.
        Senator Manchin. I am understanding there is no
    infringement, whatsoever, on private owners, but we will
    clarify everything and make sure the language is proper.
        Mr. Smith. And as, such as now we're under, governed by
    Raleigh County, or Fayette County Building, we just want to
    make sure there's going to--nothing----
        Senator Manchin. That stays the same.
        Mr. Smith. ----that they don't restrict what we can do with
    our property.
        Senator Manchin. Yes, nothing changes.
        Mr. Smith. Okay.
        And the second thing is, you know, by living there, you
    know, through the summer I see the tourist people come. It's a
    great thing and the Parks people do a wonderful job, but
    they're woefully understaffed. They don't have the resources.
    Your infrastructure sucks. I mean----
        [Laughter.]
        ----just flat out. Your--they don't have the money to
    maintain what they have unless you, Senators, appropriate money
    for this. If you get a 20 percent increase of visitors, it's
    going to be really bad. I mean, on a busy day you can't get to
    the ramp anyway. So unless you're willing to put out the money,
    don't increase the amount of people who are coming or it's just
    going to be a very bad thing.
        Thank you.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Berkley. As our next speaker is coming, would the
    following speakers be prepared? Mr. Keith Richardson, Mr.
    Nathaniel Begley and Mr. Steven Martin.
        Mr. Jarrell. Hi, my name is Brad Jarrell. I grew up in
    Fayetteville and now live in Raleigh County.
        As the last gentleman spoke about the infrastructure within
    the boundaries, I want to talk about the infrastructure outside
    of the boundaries. It's not ready for hundreds of thousands of
    people a year. Growing up in Fayette County, the roads, the
    utilities, all that stuff, it's deteriorating, it's gone,
    it's--they're not replacing it right now. There's areas that
    cannot handle this many people.
        I'd like to know if all the hunters, I'm a hunter myself,
    if all the hunters are happy, everybody else is for the bill is
    happy, and this goes through, what happens to the surrounding
    area? As far as, I guess it comes down to money at that point.
    Where does that come from? The Parks are going to have their--
    they're probably going to get fees. They're probably going to
    do all that stuff, get their own money. Where does the
    surrounding area acquire that?
        That's all I have. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. Let me clarify real--I know we are over
    the allotted time. We are willing, Senator Capito and I will
    stay as long as possible to make sure everybody gets heard.
        Also, the questions, when you all make your statements and
    there is like a question in your statement, I just asked the
    staff here and they will contact you back with the correct
    answer that we have, the way the bill has been drafted, to
    answer your question to the best of their ability. So everyone
    will get correct answers.
        Sir, I am sorry.
        Mr. Martin. Hello, I'm Steven Martin. It's spelled, S-t-e-
    v-e-n M-a-r-t-i-n.
        First off, I want to thank you all for letting me, allowing
    me to speak today.
        Senator Manchin. Sure.
        Mr. Martin. It's good to meet you, Senator Capito, you,
    Senator Manchin, all the distinguished guests.
        What I wanted to talk about is something that's very near
    to my family and to me. It's not real popular. You might not
    know about it, but it's the Martin Graveyard. It's located
    inside of the Park, and we're concerned about the access to it.
    I do have the permit where we can go take care of it, but the
    road is deteriorating and we don't have access no more to
    actually drive to it and we're concerned with that.
        And also, I would just like to make a point about me being
    a sportsman and my family. I've been on every trail in the
    park, me and my children, my wife. I want to continue to better
    use it, but I'm a hunter also and I think it could be for both
    the hunters and hikers, bicyclers, everybody. First off,
    there's a hunting season and it doesn't last that long, it's
    only a quarter of the year. So I think that there would be ways
    that that could work out in all areas of the park.
        But I've never been shot at. I know the gentleman said that
    he was shot at by a hunter, but I'm sure you, Mr. Manchin,
    would know if somebody is bearing down on you with a rifle,
    you're going to kill 'em if you shoot at 'em.
        Senator Manchin. I'm very cautious when I am hunting.
        Mr. Martin. Sure. I've never been shot at while hunting
    that I know of, but I do think that it could all work together
    for both and it would be beneficial for West Virginia. Just
    like I said, there's a hunting season. It brings a tremendous
    amount.
        Senator Manchin. Sure.
        Mr. Martin. And on the last note, don't make your decisions

    on the love of money. Don't let greed be a part in this
    decision-making.
        [Applause.]
        Make sure--doing what's right might not be the most popular
    thing. You see what I'm talking about.
        Senator Manchin. Gotcha.
        Mr. Martin. And I thank you for your time.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Berkley. While our next speaker is coming, would the
    following speakers prepare: Ms. Kristy Grant-Hart, Ms. Terri
    Giles and Ms. Sharon Cruikshank.
        Mr. Love. Are you ready?
        Senator Manchin. Ready.
        Mr. Love. Are you ready to roll with this?
        Senator Manchin. Ready to rock and roll.
        Mr. Love. My name is Peyton Love, and I've been blessed by
    the good Lord to be able to spend a good bit of my life in that
    big circle up in that video.
        Senator Manchin. I have been on a river with Peyton too.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Love. I've been a kayaker for 22 years and I love it,
    and I've got a lot of questions answered here. I really
    appreciate you all trying to do something for the state.
        Senator Manchin. Right.
        Mr. Love. After rafting with you this year----
        Senator Manchin. Yes.
        Mr. Love. ----you're my favorite politician.
        Senator Manchin. Oh boy.
        [Laughter.]
        He threw me in the river too.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Love. I did.
        Anyway, my concern was, you know, are they going to fee me
    because, like Bill Lehrter said, sometimes we get off work, we
    go do a river run. We want to be able to just go, ``oh, we're
    going to do a river run,'' and not have to do a permit. Now
    with the numbers going down, it hasn't been going up, but I've
    been hearing people say it's going up. It hadn't been going up,
    it's gone up on the weekends. And it sounds like this proposal,
    I'm not against, nor am I for it, I'm on the fence throwing
    pebbles at both sides. So my pebble I'm going to throw to this
    side is why are you going to put money into the tourism only if
    we become a park?
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. You are going to----
        Mr. Love. I'm not going to drop a mic because I own a mic,
    and I know how much they cost.
        [Laughter.]
        Anyway, that's my biggest question on that.
        Senator Manchin. We are going to get you an answer to that
    too, Peyton. We will get you an answer.
        Mr. Love. You know, I mean, let's--we used to do--I worked
    at another company before Adventures on the Gorge. I love my
    company, thank you guys for having me. I hope you'll have me
    after this talk.
        [Laughter.]
        But back when I started this, they gave us promotional
    money and the numbers were better. There is another thing with
    the baby boomers. You're a baby boomer, right? And you took
    your kids and you went on a week-long vacation. My people,
    Generation X, they go just for the weekend and now you have the
    Millennials. You can't get them off the cell phones.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Peyton.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Grant-Hart. Hello, Senators, thank you so much for
    having this discussion. My name is Kristy Grant-Hart. K-r-i-s-
    t-y G-r-a-n-t-H-a-r-t. And I have a different perspective,
    because I'm a new mountaineer. So my husband and I came and
    visited two years ago, absolutely fell in love with the place
    and we bought 38 acres and 12 cabins and are now running a
    business in West Virginia. And I think--I spent the last nine
    years in England. I want to speak on the international
    perspective.
        My in-laws have visited basically 10 national parks, and
    they come because of that designation. If you're looking for
    international visitors and for the reputation of West Virginia
    throughout the entire United States and the world, this makes
    an enormous difference. People see national parks differently
    and in order to grow the reputation to what, I think, it should
    be, I mean, I came here and said, this is the prettiest place
    I've ever been and I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't come
    and that designation will bring people who will tell their
    friends that they should come here because it's amazing.
        Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        Do we have more, Terri?
        Ms. Berkley. Yes, sir. The last four speakers are Mr.
    Charles McCue, Ms. Heidi Prior, Ms. Elizabeth Slone and Ms.
    Debbie Lamey.
        Senator Manchin. If they would step to the front on the
    sides there, and we will go in order.
        Thank you.
        Ms. Giles. Hello, my name is Terri Giles, and I'm from
    Hinton, West Virginia, and I grew up there and moved back there
    to run a business that focuses on environmental sustainability
    and economic development. I wanted to thank both Senator
    Manchin and Senator Capito for leading the charge on this.
        As the previous speaker mentioned, a designation of a
    national park changes the story for everyone here. While I'm
    concerned about the money for the infrastructure as well and
    also the access for hunters, having grown up there, we've put
    millions of dollars in Summers County for my business. I'm the
    Vice President of Appalachian Headwaters. We're doing big
    things in Summers County, as the Commissioner mentioned, in
    conjunction with other counties, so we would like to have our
    areas that are very special in the world to be recognized.
        And I thank both of you for leading the charge on this. I
    believe, sincerely, that both of you will consider all the
    wants and needs of the citizens here in our area of how we can
    have a compromise, to both have a national park as well as
    access for our hunters and other people who enjoy the outdoors,
    including--and please encourage people to stop spraying. I run
    the Appalachian Beekeeping Collective, and we don't want our
    bees killed anymore.
        But thank you both.
        Senator Manchin. Thanks, Terri.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Cruikshank. Good morning.
        Senator Capito. Morning.
        Ms. Cruikshank. Thank you all for coming to our area.
        Senator Manchin. A little closer, if you will, and your
    name, please.
        Ms. Cruikshank. A little closer and my name is Sharon
    Cruikshank, spelled C-r-u-i-k-s-h-a-n-k.
        I'm speaking for myself. I have no company. I represent no
    one today, but I did want to speak. I support this endeavor;
    however, I have concerns. I'm not a hunter. I'm not a rafter.
    I'm not a rock climber. I do hike and I used to ride my horses
    in the Gorge quite often.
        My concerns are the parking. We have issues with parking.
    We have people being towed. This isn't what we want to have for
    our companies, whether you're a fishing company, hunting
    company, climbing company, we want to be open to everything. I
    think there's a way that we can have a compromise, that we have
    hunting as well as the national park.
        My other concern is water quality, the infrastructure. I
    think these issues, if we're looking at all this then we need
    to look at the whole picture and not just limit ourselves to
    one issue or another. We're all neighbors, and we all get
    along. Thank you all for your time very much.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you very much.
        [Applause.]
        Is this our last?
        Ms. Berkley. Two more after----
        Senator Manchin. Two more presenters after this, okay.
    Thank you all for being so patient.
        Mr. McCue. My name's Charles McCue. Last name is spelled,
    M-c-C-u-e. I'm a lifelong resident and a native of here, in
    West Virginia. I've got a formal education in forestry and
    wildlife, and I've spent most of my career guiding recreational
    industries, working on the rivers as a raft guide, working out
    West as a big game guide. I come here today to represent the
    West Virginia Trappers Association (WVTA). I'm a Director on
    the Board of Directors. We are a non-profit, outdoorsmen and
    women association dedicated to the education of better wildlife
    management and ethical harvesting.
        First, I would like to say we, the outdoorsmen and women of
    the WVTA, are pleased with the current recreational
    opportunities and the Park Service management of our national
    recreation area.
        Our first and biggest concern is the loss of public land
    use rights due to urban and suburban and rules for all, higher
    land taxes causing the leasing of private landholdings and more
    government restrictions on private land. We, the people of West
    Virginia, have seen a continual loss of land use rights on both
    private and public land, leaving many residents and visitors of
    our state with only the use of our public lands. Creating a
    national park, we are sure, through historical fact, will
    reduce, restrict or maybe even remove many or all of these
    rights.
        We at the West Virginia Trappers Association already know
    the right to harvest fur-bearing animals was taken away
    immediately upon the making of the national recreation area
    thus removing the wildlife manager's ability to control certain
    animal populations in these ecosystems. Many of the residents
    of our state depend on these renewable resources in our daily
    and annual lives.
        Pardon me.
        The concerns are many bringing the West Virginia Trappers
    Association, being represented by 500+ outdoorsmen and
    outdoorswomen of the State of West Virginia, to the conclusion
    that we do not support the making of our recreation area into a
    national park. Thank you for your time and consideration. Have
    a good day.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Prior. Hi, my name is Heidi Prior. I am here as just a
    resident of Fayette County today and a mom and I think as we
    saw the folks that have come up and speak I'd like to say and
    note that there weren't as many females speaking and so, I find
    myself in a duty to speak on behalf of the mothers of the New
    River Gorge.
        I want my six-year-old to be proud of where he's from and
    this would do that, and I think that's more important. I want
    him to have good schools. I want him to have a job when he
    graduates, and yes, I eat meat. I'm not a hunter, but I eat
    meat and that is the heart and soul of what we're trying to do
    here is raise the next generation. So the men have definitely
    spoke, what I encourage is the women and the moms and the dads
    to speak as well and--I'm nervous and I'm talking about my kid.
        [Laughter.]
        But the other thing too is I do dabble in politics a bit.
    There is a bill called Restore Our Parks Act. I don't know a
    lot about it, but if you care about her funding [motions toward
    Ms. Watts], vote for that bill. There's answers to all this.
    So, please, you guys, think of the next generation more than
    your hobby. Thanks.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you. Well said.
        [Applause.]
        Ms. Slone. Hi, my name is Elizabeth Slone, S-l-o-n-e.
        The New River Gorge is beautiful, but I don't believe that
    it is up to the national park standards. Would Wolf Creek be
    the gem of the new park? Its headwaters are polluted from
    injection wells near the headwaters. How many national parks
    have you visited where you can see a sign which reads,
    ``Warning, No Swimming, Fecal Coliform''?
        [Applause.]
        Such a sign exists at Keeneys Creek. If this does become a
    park, I just really want to see that we spend the money
    cleaning up the Gorge before we spend it on parking lots.
        The last thing I'll say is about the hunting area and you
    saying that it's too steep, it doesn't get used. The steepness
    is what makes it the challenge and that's what's awesome about
    hunting. And the turkey that I pulled out of my deep freeze
    last week and made turkey soup with, it was from that area.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        This is our last speaker and, again, we thank all of you so
    much. We will have a few comments.
        Ms. Lamey. Hi, my name is Debbie Lamey. I did not plan to
    speak today. I'll try not to bumble this, but I appreciate the
    opportunity, Senators.
        Senator Manchin. Sure.
        Ms. Lamey. I am here personally, but also as a member of
    Friends of New River Gorge National River. I have grown up in
    this area. I grew up with hunters. I grew up with coal miners.
    I am married to an avid fisherman. I care about our area in
    general and everything that happens to it. I am in support of
    anything that will benefit our area, bring more people to see
    the beautiful place that I have enjoyed my whole life.
        I have climbed it. I have hiked it. We raft it. We frequent
    the restaurants. And one thing that I would like to say is that
    so many people here seem to be concerned with fees. Our park
    has never charged fees. Our park does not plan to charge fees
    but one way that you can help assuage that is do you--step into
    your visitor center and drop money in the donation box. Go out
    and enjoy your park. Go hunt. I support you to hunt. However, I
    think we have to co-exist. I have stepped off of a hiking trail
    and walked up to a hunter with a gun and a vest. That is highly
    uncomfortable for me. I ask that you respect my area and let me
    enjoy my park as well as you enjoying my park.
        And another thing that you can do is our group, Friends of
    New River Gorge, our whole entire existence is based upon
    supporting the national park in whatever form, whether it is
    contained--whether it continues to be a national river or it
    becomes a national park. We will continue to do that. So every
    dollar that you donate to Friends of New River Gorge goes
    straight to the park and whatever their needs are, things that
    the government might not be able to hand them funds for right
    now, but they have needs for and that we can help them support
    and give them money for and fundraise for.
        So please, if you're going to utilize the park, please
    support it in other ways. Give to our organization, listen to
    other legislation that's out there and give to the National
    Park Service Visitor Centers.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
        [Applause.]
        As we wrap up, let me say a few things for housekeeping, if
    I can. I want to recognize also, the people that, again, that
    made this possible. First of all, to our video, Dan, and to our
    audio, I want to thank them. To Al Hancock, who came all the
    way from Bluefield. He is a two-war veteran, served our country
    tremendously. I appreciate him.
        [Applause.]
        To the Energy Committee that made this a formal public
    hearing for the record. They came from Washington, DC. We have
    David, Peter, Renae, Sam, Lucy, Annie, Darla and Lindsay and
    all of them--raise your hands, raise your hands.
        [Applause.]
        This is our Democrat and Republican staffs working
    together. Senator Capito's staff has been working extremely
    hard, and we appreciate all of them--Travis, Baxter, Adam,
    Todd, Mary Elizabeth.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        Senator Manchin. To my staff, I am very proud of. I have
    Mara, Terri, Ali, Marcus and Wes.
        [Applause.]
        These are the people that made it possible and also, as far
    as closing statements, Senator Capito, if you have a statement
    to be made, and we will close.
        Senator Capito. Thank you, Senator Manchin. Thank all of
    you, and I want to thank the staff. When he mentioned the staff
    that came from DC, I said, well, that is economic development.
    We could have hearings here.
        [Laughter.]
        But we are glad they get to see our beautiful part of the
    state.
        I think the thing that strikes me more than anything is how
    passionate everybody is and well thought out the comments were.
    I know they were very representative of everybody in the
    audience. But it is about, I think, the balance is the issue
    that we are trying to find here because there were 45 people
    and I didn't get a chance to really split it, who opposed, but
    it was pretty evenly split, I think. But there were several
    people who said if we could make some changes here and there
    that may tip the balance for them, and that is the purpose of
    this meeting is for us to go back--Senator Manchin and I are on
    the same page here--working together to try to make the changes
    that we have heard today.
        The last thing I would say is I want to thank our panel,
    but particularly there was a lot of comment and concern about
    the over usage of the park, the lack of infrastructure of the
    park and the next to the last speaker mentioned a bill that
    both of us are very interested in, the Restore Our Parks Act,
    and I think we may be able to get that over. That is a
    bipartisan bill that will address some of the backlog in the
    national parks, and I think it would help here as well.
        [Applause.]
        So I would encourage you to look at that.
        I just really want to thank Senator Manchin for being the
    Ranking Member of a great Committee, and for bringing the
    Committee here. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
        I will say ``ditto'' to all of that, but let me tell you
    that in the most toxic atmosphere of politics I have ever seen
    in my life that we live in today, this shows you how a civil
    meeting could be held and should be held. I am so proud of West
    Virginia.
        [Applause.]
        This bill has been conceived and considered in the most
    bipartisan way and not a political way at all, looking at how
    we best enhance our state and opportunities and protect our
    heritage, and we are trying to take all that into
    consideration. All of the statements you made are on video and
    on record, and they will be answered. It will be taken into
    consideration when S. 2555 is marked up.
        Senator Capito will come in as part, not on the Committee,
    but she will come in and testify for the bill too, and what we
    have been able to find out which makes it even more inclusive.
    So I am just so proud. I know how difficult this is as you all
    have mentioned, quite a few of the people who testified
    mentioned, this is difficult because you were concerned about
    your fellow Fayette Countian or fellow West Virginian that they
    might be upset with you, because you took one view and they
    took another. Well, welcome to our world.
        [Laughter.]
        But what we do is we have to find a way to come together,
    that is all, and really respect everyone and your positions you
    have taken. It has been a wonderful hearing. It is something
    that we look forward to, everyone involved here, all of our
    expert panel and all of them for testifying.
        Thank you. God bless each and every one of you, and we are
    dismissed.
        [Whereupon, at 12:03 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.]

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