[Senate Hearing 116-344]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 116-344
PENDING LEGISLATION
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ENERGY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON
ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
on
S. 876 S. 2556 S. 2688
S. 1890 S. 2657 S. 2702
S. 2425 S. 2660 S. 2714
S. 2508 S. 2668
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NOVEMBER 6, 2019
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[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
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U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
39-870 WASHINGTON : 2021
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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho RON WYDEN, Oregon
MIKE LEE, Utah MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
STEVE DAINES, Montana BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
CORY GARDNER, Colorado MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
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Subcommittee on Energy
BILL CASSIDY, Chairman
JAMES E. RISCH MARTIN HEINRICH
MIKE LEE RON WYDEN
STEVE DAINES MARIA CANTWELL
CORY GARDNER BERNARD SANDERS
CINDY HYDE-SMITH DEBBIE STABENOW
MARTHA McSALLY MAZIE K. HIRONO
LAMAR ALEXANDER ANGUS S. KING, JR.
JOHN HOEVEN CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO
Brian Hughes, Staff Director
Kellie Donnelly, Chief Counsel
Brianne Miller, Senior Professional Staff Member and Energy Policy
Advisor
Jed Dearborn, Senior Counsel
Sarah Venuto, Democratic Staff Director
Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
Renae Black, Democratic Deputy Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Cassidy, Hon. Bill, Subcommittee Chairman and a U.S. Senator from
Louisiana...................................................... 1
Heinrich, Hon. Martin, Subcommittee Ranking Member and a U.S.
Senator from New Mexico........................................ 2
King, Jr., Hon. Angus S., a U.S. Senator from Maine.............. 3
Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska.... 4
Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine, a U.S. Senator from Nevada......... 5
WITNESSES
Smith, Hon. Tina, a U.S. Senator from Minnesota.................. 3
Simmons, Hon. Daniel, Assistant Secretary, Office of Energy
Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE), U.S. Department of
Energy......................................................... 6
ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
Advanced Energy Economy, et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 51
Alliance to Save Energy, et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 53
American Chemical Society:
Letter for the Record........................................ 55
American Wind Energy Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 57
Cassidy, Hon. Bill:
Opening Statement............................................ 1
ClearPath Action:
Letter for the Record........................................ 59
Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine:
Opening Statement............................................ 5
Cyrq Energy:
Letter for the Record........................................ 60
Electric Power Supply Association:
Statement for the Record..................................... 61
Fervo Energy:
Letter for the Record........................................ 64
Geothermal Exchange Organization:
Letter for the Record........................................ 65
Geothermal Resource Group:
Letter for the Record........................................ 66
Geothermal Resources Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 68
Heinrich, Hon. Martin:
Opening Statement............................................ 2
King, Jr., Hon. Angus S.:
Opening Statement............................................ 3
Murkowski, Hon. Lisa:
Opening Statement............................................ 4
Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne:
Statement for the Record..................................... 70
Simmons, Hon. Daniel:
Opening Statement............................................ 6
Written Testimony............................................ 9
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 26
Smith, Hon. Tina:
Opening Statement............................................ 3
Third Way:
Letter for the Record........................................ 71
U.S. Green Building Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 72
__________
The text for each of the bills which were addressed in this hearing can
be found on the committee's website at: https://www.energy.senate.gov/
hearings/2019/11/subcommittee-on-
energy-legislative-hearing
PENDING LEGISLATION
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WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 6, 2019
U.S. Senate,
Subcommittee on Energy,
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m. in
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Bill Cassidy,
presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BILL CASSIDY,
U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA
Senator Cassidy [presiding]. The hearing is now in order.
Thank you, everyone, for being here. The purpose of this
hearing is to receive testimony on several bills, and this
Subcommittee is now convening its third legislative hearing.
The legislative hearing allows us to receive testimony and
ask questions from the Assistant Secretary of the U.S.
Department of Energy (DOE), Dan Simmons. Today's hearing is
another opportunity to consider a wide range of bills aimed at
emission reduction technology programs, cybersecurity and job
training in the energy sector.
One of the bills being considered is a bill I introduced
with my colleague, Senator Whitehouse, the Technology
Transition Act. The Office of Technology Transition works
across the Department of Energy to turn innovative ideas into
commercialization. This legislation builds on previous efforts
from Congress and the Department of Energy. It puts the Office
of Technology Transition (OTT) in a better position for
success.
In a competitive world, we need technology and innovation
to lower emissions, and it is important we look for ways to
speed scientific discovery and support national labs who carry
out these efforts. We can show the world that through
innovation, we can lower emissions and maintain a modern
economy with robust employment. As this Committee continues to
consider energy innovation bills, it is important that the
right policies are in place to ensure research and development
dollars are turned into commercialized technology.
I will now turn to my colleague and friend, Ranking Member
Heinrich.
STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO
Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman Cassidy, for holding
our third legislative hearing this year in the Energy
Subcommittee, and welcome to our witness, Assistant Secretary
Simmons. Thank you for being here and for testifying.
We have a good body of work to show for our efforts this
year in the Energy Subcommittee. We reported out 22 energy
bills in July, another 21 bills last month and we are moving
another 11 bills through the Committee process in today's
hearing.
Our agenda today includes a wide-ranging group of bills,
including measures to improve DOE's role in innovation and
technology commercialization, make the most of nuclear energy
to help decarbonize the grid, promote a skilled energy
workforce, advance renewable energy, keep the grid safe from
cyber threats, and improve energy efficiency. These are the
types of bills that we should be able to build into a broadly
supported, I believe, bipartisan energy package.
I am especially pleased that Senator Cortez Masto's bill,
the Renew America's Schools Act, is on the agenda. I am a co-
sponsor of this bill which would establish a competitive grant
program specifically targeted at low income populations to make
energy efficiency upgrades, install clean energy and renewables
for schools and, basically, lower schools' energy bills. Under
this bill, grants could also be used to help schools transition
to zero emissions vehicles and buses and install electric
vehicle charging infrastructure. The bottom line is the bill
would make our schools healthier with improved ventilation,
daylighting, and air quality, and a number of studies have
shown increased performance based on those kinds of changes.
I am also pleased to see research and development
authorization bills from Senator Sinema for solar energy, and
Senator Smith, who has joined us, for wind energy, on today's
agenda. Advancing non-polluting technology should be a critical
element of any energy innovation package that this Committee
might put together in the coming weeks.
We also have two workforce and career development bills on
the list. Ensuring that we have a strong energy workforce will
be essential as we transition to a cleaner energy future. That
is also why I have introduced S. 2393, the Clean Energy Jobs
Act, with Senator Manchin, and I hope to see that bill on our
next markup.
Finally, I am glad to see this Committee continues to focus
on programs at DOE that are at the forefront of driving
innovation in our economy. In particular, Senators Van Hollen
and Alexander's ARPA-E reauthorization bill ramps up funding
over the next five years to be more in line with what we need
to keep us at the cutting edge of energy technology globally.
I also appreciate my colleague, Senator Cassidy, for
introducing his Technology Transitions Act which codifies DOE's
important Office of Technology Transitions. The bill is a
companion to the bipartisan Technology Maturation legislation
that Senator Gardner and I introduced earlier this year, and
working to improve the process of tech transfer from DOE's 17
laboratories to the private sector is a key priority.
I look forward to working with Chairman Cassidy as well as
the Chair and Ranking Member of the Full Committee to keep this
momentum going. I think there has been some frustration with
the pace of the Senate. I have certainly experienced that in
this current legislative session and this current Congress, but
we have some great bills here. I believe we can be the
exception rather than the rule and really get some good energy
bills done for our country.
Thank you, Chairman.
Senator Cassidy. Senator Smith, I believe you have an
opening statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. TINA SMITH,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MINNESOTA
Senator Smith. Thank you very much, Chair Cassidy and
Ranking Member Heinrich. It's great to be back with the Energy
Committee, and I really welcome the opportunity to testify here
this morning.
So today you are considering several important bills that
would advance clean energy, the clean energy transition, and
I'm happy to have my bill be a part of this conversation. I'm
pleased to speak about this bipartisan bill that I've
introduced with Senator Collins, the Wind Energy Research and
Development Act. This bill would extend and expand the Wind
Energy program at the Department of Energy.
Now we know that wind energy is growing fast, and it now
accounts for about 6.5 percent of total U.S. electric
generation. And in Minnesota wind energy already accounts for
nearly 20 percent of the electricity that we use in our state.
Increased use of wind energy is not just good for our
environment, it is also good for our economy. Wind supports
114,000 jobs nationwide, and that number is growing. And
importantly, wind energy boosts rural economies. Farmers can
earn annual payments of anywhere between $4,000 and $8,000 per
turbine and still farm underneath those turbines.
So the federal research and development funding is crucial
for continuing advancements in wind technology. I want the
world to be installing U.S.-made wind turbines containing U.S.-
patented technology. Wind research and development is key to
building U.S. leadership. And as with every aspect of the clean
energy revolution, we can lead or we can follow and I want the
United States to lead.
So, thank you, my colleagues, for hearing this bill today,
and I ask for your support.
Senator Cassidy. Are you moving back permanently to the
Committee?
Senator Smith. Well, that is a, I believe that that is
above my pay grade, Senator, but I love this Committee very
much and would love to be back.
Thank you.
Senator Cassidy. Senator King.
STATEMENT OF HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think the common denominator, as we have been discussing
this morning, is innovation which is really, I believe, the key
to the energy future. Innovation in storage. Innovation in low-
carbon fuels. Innovation in cleaner deployment of fossil fuels.
I think we have a lot on our plate here today. I am
delighted to see Mr. Simmons here. We have worked together in
the past, and I think they are really doing a great job.
The bill that I am particularly interested in involves
something called CHP, combined heat and power. We used to call
it co-generation but it is a very sensible technology to get
both electricity and heat, use the heat made in the generation
of electricity in useful ways and, therefore, much more
efficiently, use whatever the resources are that are generating
the electricity.
There is a technical assistance program Mr. Simmons knows
about. The University of Maine is the center of this in New
England. I think it has been very effective. The bill that I am
proposing today would extend that program and, I think,
underlies the benefits.
So innovation and the next generation of energy technology
is really what we are after here. I look forward to working
with the Committee. The Committee, as Senator Henrich points
out, has had a really good, great record this year of
legislation. Now we have to see what we can do to get it across
the finish line on the Floor of the Senate. But I am proud of
the work that we have done thus far and look forward to our
work today. Thank you.
Senator Cassidy. Senator Murkowski.
STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI,
U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA
The Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Senator Heinrich, thank you for
this Subcommittee hearing today. Good bills before the
Subcommittee, and I wanted to just say a couple words about two
of the bills that we have on the agenda today.
The first one I would like to address is the Protecting
Resources On The Electric grid with Cybersecurity Technology,
or PROTECT, Act. This is something that Senator Manchin has
been working on with me, along with Senators Risch, King and
Cantwell. What we do with this legislation is enhance the
security of our nation's electric grid by providing electric
utilities with incentives, grants and technical assistance to
invest in innovative cybersecurity technology that improves
their security posture over and above the level that is
required by industry standards.
I think we all recognize the role, the importance of our
electric grid, on really every sector of our economy. But what
we are hoping to do with this Act is to strengthen the
cybersecurity partnership between private industry and the
Federal Government and to deploy more advanced cybersecurity
technologies. This is something we talk a lot about in this
Committee, and I think this is one of those just, again,
commonsense measures that will move us one step closer.
The other bill that the Subcommittee is going to be taking
up this morning is the Advanced Geothermal Innovation
Leadership Act. We call this the AGILE Act. I am co-sponsoring
this with Senator Manchin. Some might not think of West
Virginia or Alaska as being states that have geothermal
resources, but that is really what this Act is all about.
Hopefully it will enable us to unlock new technologies to allow
for affordable geothermal heat and power, really anywhere, in
the country.
So what we do is update our national assessment of
geothermal resources to encompass new technologies and market
opportunities like underground heat storage. We expand
geothermal energy research into important secondary uses like
mineral recovery. We create a prize competition for the co-
production of minerals from geothermal brines. We also jump-
start enhanced geothermal by authorizing four demonstration
projects including, for the first time, one on the Eastern half
of the United States, that is obviously of interest to Senator
Manchin, but we also improve permitting for developing
geothermal resources on federal lands. This is a process that
right now is taking anywhere from seven to ten years. So you
look at that and you just say, there has to be a better way.
When you think about geothermal as a baseload renewable
energy resource with huge potential, any of you that have ever
had an opportunity to go visit Iceland and see what that nation
has done. It is really quite remarkable. Now obviously they
have a resource that is much more accessible, but what we have
learned is that the technologies that helped bring the shale
revolution to this country are the same types of technologies
that can help us with regards to geothermal.
So we are excited about that one and as we think about the
different renewables that we are putting forward in this
Committee, whether it is the solar, the wind, the geothermal.
Senator Wyden has an ocean energies water resources bill. There
are some good things that are coming together so it is quite
exciting, and I am pleased that the Subcommittee is focused on
it.
Thank you.
Senator Cassidy. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Senator Cortez Masto.
STATEMENT OF HON. CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NEVADA
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you to the Chairman
and Ranking Member.
Let me just say one thing about geothermal--we are very
supportive in Nevada. We have a lot of geothermal energy, and
it is not only a benefit to some of our commercial businesses,
but residential as well. So I am a big fan and look forward to
working with the Committee and my colleagues on promoting more
geothermal.
I also want to thank both the Chairman and Ranking Member
for including my bill, the Renew America's Schools Act, which
is
S. 1890, among the legislation being considered during today's
hearing. This Committee has taken up the issue of energy
efficiency and widely agrees that one of the most immediate
actions we can take to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions is
to improve our buildings and maybe even our vehicles to drive
down the use of energy needed to power our everyday lives.
My bill would create a federal grant program available to K
through 12 schools to make energy efficiency improvements to
lighting, heating, cooling, and ventilation systems, install
renewable energy technologies to power our public schools, and
purchase zero emissions vehicles and install the necessary
infrastructure for those vehicles. Modernizing our schools to
make them more energy efficient not only helps drive down
emissions in our communities, but it also helps reduce our
school's energy costs, leaving more money in school budgets for
supplies and programs that directly benefit our children.
That is just one example of what this bill aims to address.
Millions of young students ride diesel buses to school every
day. Studies have shown that the air inside of these buses can
be up to five times more polluted than the air outside the bus.
Transitioning away from diesel buses to electric vehicles would
immediately improve the air our children breathe on their way
to school and reduce the health risks that result from
emissions exposure and impede a student's ability to learn.
The Renew America's Schools Act saves our schools money,
and it makes our communities healthier. I invite my colleagues
in the Senate to join me on this bill and look forward to the
thoughtful discussion during today's hearing.
Thank you.
Senator Cassidy. Mr. Simmons, I believe you are up.
STATEMENT OF HON. DANIEL SIMMONS, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, OFFICE
OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY (EERE), U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
Mr. Simmons. Thank you.
Chairman Cassidy, Ranking Member Heinrich, Chairman
Murkowski, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. And
before I get to my testimony, I'll just note that a few minutes
ago we announced $128 million in selections on our Solar FOA
for the year. That is $23 million for photovoltaic solar
research, $30 million for CSP research and development, $17
million for projects on balance in system soft costs, $6.8
million for innovations in manufacturing for a hardware
incubator and $50 million for advanced solar systems
integration technologies. That went out a few minutes ago. I
don't even know if it's public yet, but it has been sent to
your staff. So we're very excited about that, about those
awards, and look forward to seeing the technologies and
improvements that comes from that funding.
I've been asked to testify on 11 bills today addressing a
range of important energy issues. The Administration continues
to review all these bills, and I appreciate the ongoing
bipartisan efforts to address our nation's energy challenges. I
look forward to working with the Committee. The bills being
discussed today address many important energy technologies and
activities at the Department of Energy.
The Renew America's Schools Act would authorize and direct
the Secretary of Energy to award competitive grants for energy
efficiency and renewable energy projects at public schools. The
Department currently provides technical assistance to a number
of K through 12 schools across the country to help them achieve
voluntary commitments of a 20 percent or better energy savings
in their facilities through the Better Buildings Challenge.
While the Department continues to review this legislation, we
support improving energy efficiency and reducing energy costs
for schools and other buildings.
The CHP Support Act amends the Energy Policy and
Conservation Act to establish a combined heat and power
technical assistance partnership program, reauthorizing
existing CHP technical assistance partnerships in the
Department's Advanced Manufacturing Office. The program would
continue to provide education and outreach to building,
industrial, electric and natural gas utility professionals,
state and local policymakers and other stakeholders with an
interest in not only CHP but also in waste heat to power and
efficient district energy technologies.
The Promoting American Energy Security Jobs Act would
direct the Secretary to establish a council to conduct a survey
and analysis of the employment figures and demographics in the
energy, energy efficiency and motor vehicle sectors in the
United States. Like many others in the Department of Energy, I
recognize the need for a skilled and technical workforce for
energy sector careers. I look forward to working with the
Committee to identify and implement strategies to ensure that
America continues to cultivate capable energy workforces.
The PROTECT Act amends the Federal Power Act to provide
energy cybersecurity investment incentives to establish a grant
and technical assistance program for cybersecurity investments.
The Department understands the challenges and risks that
cybersecurity poses to our energy infrastructure. The
Department's Office of Cybersecurity, Energy Security, and
Emergency Response addresses the emerging threats of tomorrow
while protecting the reliable flow of energy to Americans today
to improve energy infrastructure security and support the
nation's national security, the Department's national security
mission.
The AGILE Act aims to accelerate geothermal energy
development in the U.S. by addressing technical and non-
technical barriers to geothermal in both electric and direct
use sectors. The bill would achieve this through promoting
research and development, encourage technology transfer from
the geothermal and oil and gas industries and explore ways to
improve federal permit coordination. The Department's
Geothermal Technology Office is currently working to address
many challenges concerning geothermal development. The Office
recently published the GeoVision analysis which found that
optimizing permitting timelines could reduce costs and
facilitate geothermal capacity development, potentially
doubling installed geothermal capacity by 2050.
The Solar Energy Research Development and Demonstration
Program Act reauthorizes the activities of EERE's Solar Energy
Technology Office and outlines several research priority areas
such as improving the energy efficiency, reliability and
security of solar energy technologies while also focusing on
reducing the overall cost of energy systems. The bill
authorizes additional work to be carried out by the Solar
Office such as providing technical assistance, supporting
workforce development and training activities and awarding
grants to carry out both research and development and
demonstration projects.
The Wind Energy Research and Development Act reauthorizes
the activities of EERE's Wind Office and outlines several
research priority areas such as improving the energy
efficiency, reliability and capability of wind generation and
supports the development of innovative designs for both land
use and offshore wind technologies. The bill also outlines
several grant subject areas including research and development
on recycling and reuse of wind energy technology components and
grants to help mitigate regulatory and market barriers.
The Technology Transition Act codifies the Office of
Technology Transitions at the Department of Energy and to
expand the commercial impact of the Department's research
investments and focus on commercializing technologies that
reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This bill reiterates the work
of the Department under the leadership of the Secretary as
undertaken as part of the existing Office of Technology
Transitions. This Office will highlight the Department's vast
research capabilities which are so important to ensuring our
domestic energy and national security as well as American
economic competitiveness.
The Integrated Energy Systems Act would direct the
Secretary of Energy to establish an integrated energy systems
research development and demonstration program between multiple
department offices including the Nuclear Energy Office to be
known as the Integrated Energy Systems Program. The intent of
the program is to maximize energy production and efficiency;
improve reliable, competitive, environmentally sustainable
electricity to the grid; expand the use of emissions-reducing
technologies and enable the U.S. energy infrastructure to
support the quantity and variability of the types of size of
generation devices and smart load devices of the future.
The Energy Jobs for our Heroes Act would establish the
``Energy Ready Vets Program'' which would help prepare veterans
for careers in the energy industry. The program will allow
eligible participants to earn an applicable energy industry-
recognized entry level certificate or other credential which
would be carried through the skill bridge program of the
Department of Defense. The Department of Energy supports the
bill's goals of strengthening energy job training opportunities
for our nation's veterans.
And the ARPA-E Reauthorization Act would reauthorize, would
authorize a significant increase in the Department's Advanced
Research Projects Agency-Energy (ARPA-E) funding from $428
million in FY 2020 to $750 million in FY 2024. The bill would
also reauthorize ARPA-E to support projects that improve the
resilience, reliability and security of the nation's energy
infrastructure. While the Department continues to review the
legislation, we remain in strong support of ARPA-E's early-
stage, high-risk energy technology solutions.
In conclusion, thank you very much for the opportunity to
testify before the Subcommittee today. The Department
appreciates the ongoing, bipartisan efforts to address our
nation's energy challenges and look forward to working with the
Committee on today's bills and any future legislation. I'd be
happy to answer your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Simmons follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Cassidy. Senator Heinrich and I have to be here no
matter what, so we are going to defer to Senator Cortez Masto
to begin the questioning.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, I appreciate that.
Mr. Simmons, thanks for being here today. It is good to see
you again.
Let me start with increasing energy efficiency in schools,
and thank you for your comments regarding the Renew America's
Schools Act.
Energy costs for K through 12 schools total approximately
$8 billion annually nationwide. But according to the EPA, $2
billion of these dollars can be saved by improving energy
efficiency. In your testimony you mentioned that the Department
of Energy currently provides technical assistance to a number
of K through 12 schools across the country to help them achieve
voluntary commitments of 20 percent or better energy savings in
their facilities through the Better Buildings Challenge. Thank
you very much.
Do you believe that the Renew America's Schools Act will
assist DOE in achieving these targets?
Mr. Simmons. What the--with achieving those--with helping
those schools achieve those targets, yes. Anytime that we have
increased emphasis coming from Congress, it is obviously very
important to the Department because we strive to meet, well, we
strive to follow Congressional guidance, but more important, we
very much strive to meet our statutory obligations.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, I appreciate that.
Let's talk about conversations we have had on cybersecurity
and workforce and the lack of the workforce to help us with
cybersecurity needs. So let me ask you this. As we work to
implement newer, smarter energy technologies, is there more DOE
can be doing to reduce the risk of cyberattacks? And how can we
help in this conversation?
Mr. Simmons. There is definitely more that we could be
doing. We're obviously doing a lot. Our Office of--the
Secretary has emphasized the cybersecurity work with the
standing up of the Cybersecurity for Energy Security and
Emergency Response. That office is a new office that there
isn't, it is not--we do not have a ton of people currently
working in that office, for example. So more people is one
answer where----
Senator Cortez Masto. And is that a challenge? Can you
address that, I mean?
Mr. Simmons. Well, it would be----
Senator Cortez Masto. Are we having an issue because there
is a lack of the workforce, the skills needed to fill that
office, or what are the challenges there?
Mr. Simmons. It would be easiest to address in questions
for the record, just to be clear since it's not my office.
Senator Cortez Masto. Okay, fair enough.
Mr. Simmons. I think that we have the skills but it's also,
it is a new office that is dealing with a rapidly changing
situation in cybersecurity and they definitely need appropriate
resources to carry that out.
Senator Cortez Masto. Okay, I appreciate that.
Geothermal, we talked a little bit about that earlier, and
I so appreciate the work that our Chairman Murkowski and our
Ranking Member Manchin have done to include geothermal in
today's discussion. I know that geothermal energy will play a
key role in the fight against climate change by providing
clean, renewable, low-carbon energy to the U.S. electricity
grid.
Looking into the future, the large-scale deployment of
renewable electricity generation will require additional
transmission to connect renewable resources which are
widespread across the United States and regionally constrained,
to load centers. Current interconnection issues facing
geothermal power differ greatly from those affecting wind power
or other renewable technologies, and assessing regional markets
via new transmission largely depends on the ability to
aggregate several geothermal plants in the same area or on
aggregating geothermal with other complementary generating
technologies in renewable energy zones.
Based on your expertise, what is the best way to accelerate
transmission upgrades across the country and what is the best
way for DOE to contribute?
Mr. Simmons. You know, that answer is, again, squarely
within the Office of Electricity's area which, so we'll be
happy to provide a more expansive answer with the testimony
later.
Senator Cortez Masto. I will submit those as well from----
Mr. Simmons. And it is really challenging to build
transmission in this country, especially long-distance
transmission. One good example of that is a power line called
Sunrise Powerlink that took, that was, well, that currently
takes electricity from the Imperial Valley in California to the
coast.
It is California. They wanted to produce the, you know,
they want to produce the solar power. They want to use it on
the coast. Everything is a piece of cake in that sense. And it
was incredibly difficult to permit and took years and tons and
tons of money. And so, the regulatory challenges of power lines
are very difficult.
Secretary Perry, when he was Governor of Texas, was able to
do that in Texas but that is a single state. Anytime that we're
also then crossing borders, when it is federal land, federal
and state and private land, there are just incredible
challenges to, incredible permitting challenges. And reducing
those challenges are, is, I think, a priority, not only for
geothermal, for wind, for solar, for all of our energy
generating resources.
Senator Cortez Masto. Yes, no, I appreciate that. Thank
you.
Senator Cassidy. Do you want to go?
Senator Heinrich. Sure.
Thank you for being with us. I want to piggyback on that
because transmission has been something I have worked a great
deal on in New Mexico. We have had luck on certain lines and
been able to get big things done. At other times, we have
experienced exactly what you said, although it has not always
been the regulatory hurdles. Oftentimes, it has been, frankly,
political hurdles. And we have seen that with lines, like Clean
Line. There is a best-selling book out there about it right
now. So we do need to figure this transmission thing out.
I gave a speech recently to a bunch of folks working on
transmission in Canada and the United States. One of the things
that I talked about is the potential to look at financing
incentives to make it easier to build those big, regionally
significant, multistate projects.
One thing that would actually have a relatively low price
tag would be extending an investment tax credit to regionally
significant projects as a way to leverage the financing and buy
more time to get those projects done. Is that something that
you have looked at at DOE, and what are your thoughts, off the
top of your head?
Mr. Simmons. That is not something that we have looked at
at DOE, investment tax credits in that situation. But you know,
from a very broad perspective, that financing is obviously
critical and when we have these other hurdles, whether they're
political, whether they're regulatory, it just increases those
financing costs and makes those projects much more difficult.
Senator Heinrich. Well, heads up, you may be seeing
legislation on that front. So it is--would love DOE's thoughts.
The next big wave of wind power projects--and we have seen
some incredibly successful wind power projects really
reinvigorate rural communities in Eastern New Mexico, in
particular. Some very healthy lease rates to farmers is making
all the difference in the world. You know, when you can get
over $10,000 a turbine in terms of a payback, that can mean the
difference between having a farm that is profitable and having
one that is not, even if you only have one or two turbines on a
farm.
But the next big wave of wind power projects is going to be
offshore. That is not what we are going to do in New Mexico,
but there is huge power demands all up and down the Eastern
Seaboard, and very favorable conditions.
Senator King. You will, unless we get climate change under
control.
Senator Heinrich. Okay.
Senator King. The New Mexico coastline is what I am----
Senator Heinrich. Yes, I gotcha, okay.
[Laughter.]
We may have offshore at some point in the future.
I would like to know, what is DOE doing now, specifically,
to bring down the cost curve the way we have seen it in
terrestrial wind for offshore wind?
Mr. Simmons. So offshore wind is one of the key areas of
emphasis for us because it is a--as you mention we have seen
that cost curve really decline in terms of onshore wind.
Offshore, we haven't seen that as much, plus deployment in the
United States we have, I think, four turbines in the water is
all. So that there is a----
Senator Heinrich. One project, Block Island.
Mr. Simmons. One project.
And so there is a lot of opportunity. So we have offshore
wind demonstration projects. One is the University of Maine,
another one in Lake Erie that we are funding. We also have,
there's some new funding to look at ways to improve offshore
wind technology, looking at things such as superconducting
generators, for example, because one of the real challenges
when you have these very large machines at 12 or, at 12
megawatt machines or even bigger, is that you want less weight
in the nacelle in the top of those machines.
Senator Heinrich. Right.
Mr. Simmons. And so, ways that we could drive down those--
that weight.
Senator Heinrich. So basically material science to----
Mr. Simmons. It is.
Senator Heinrich. ----to change the nature of what is
currently very heavy machinery at the apex of the turbine and
nacelle.
Mr. Simmons. Very heavy machinery and then as we have these
longer blades, making sure that those longer blades are also,
you know, structurally sound as well as, you know, looking to
the future. And as we are recycling these blades, looking at
ways to make sure that the wind blades are inherently
recyclable.
Senator Heinrich. Right. Good.
Mr. Simmons. That hasn't necessarily been a big issue so
far because of----
Senator Heinrich. But it will be in the future.
Mr. Simmons. But it will be in the future.
Senator Heinrich. I think it is worth just pointing out
what you said about, you know, a 10 to 12 megawatt, a single
turbine producing 10 to 12 megawatts. I mean, that is pretty
incredible when you think about that. And we are talking about
capacity factors that are nudging above 50 percent. So capacity
factors that are in excess of what we see from coal generation
in the spring months in the United States. This is an enormous
game changer.
Senator Cassidy. Senator King, did you want to ask
questions?
Senator King. Well, I just wanted to add to that and thank
the Department for its steadfast support of the Aqua Ventus
program in Maine which, I think, is one of the most promising
technologies. We are at the beginning of the cost curve because
there are not significant or there are not a substantial number
of projects. That will happen, but your support, the
Department's support, consistently, has meant a lot. And I
think that project is really getting very close to having all
the pieces together. So I wanted to thank you for that.
And also, thank you for your interest in combined heat and
power. That is a technology that we have in hand, and I know
the Department has been supportive. You have been up to the
University, and the technical support center, I think, is
making a real difference for businesses throughout the country
actually.
So I think the Department has identified something like 150
gigawatts of potential power from combined heat and power
potential in the country. That compares to 300 good-sized power
plants. So very efficient use, and I appreciate your work and
look forward to continuing to work with you on these projects.
Mr. Simmons. Thank you.
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Cassidy. Mr. Simmons, thank you for being here.
So this is on my mind. I have a friend. He is very proud
his son works for the Livermore lab. The bill that I and others
are promoting is the Office of Technology Transitions,
elevating it, if you will in the, kind of, chart, to have more
authority, if you will.
How do you imagine your office working with an elevated
authority OTT to take all this great research occurring at
places like Livermore into the private sector? First question.
Mr. Simmons. Well, this is--this, I believe, is critical
work. It is not enough for us to do science projects. We need
to get those science projects into the real world. They need to
be, you know, our goal is obviously to commercialize those in
the United States.
A good example of both us doing a fantastic job and maybe
not the best job is the recent Nobel Prize for Chemistry. Two
of the three winners of that award have been funded by the
Department of Energy for years. So kudos to my predecessors in
the Office. Kudos to the staff for funding those technologies,
because lithium-ion battery technologies have literally changed
the world.
That is fantastic. But we look at that today and we say,
this technology was, you know, in large measure created in the
United States and where are we today in terms of manufacturing?
We need a focus on R&D around manufacturing so that we don't
just create the knowledge but we're also then creating those,
we're creating the manufacturing, those jobs here in the United
States.
Senator Cassidy. So, let me ask.
Mr. Simmons. That is a challenge.
Senator Cassidy. So let me ask. You are obviously talking
about not just the genesis of a new paradigm, but also the
production process by which that becomes commercially viable.
Fair statement?
Mr. Simmons. Correct, correct.
Senator Cassidy. Now I find, I come from academia, and I
find that there are some academic institutions--which I think
of our major labs as being academic--that are very good at
translation with an entrepreneurial spirit and others, not.
There is some linchpin that is lacking.
And I think when you think of prestigious universities,
Stanford's done a fantastic job of commercializing the product
of their faculty and spin-offs from their grad students into
things that we can all immediately recognize. Equally
prestigious universities, not so much.
Is there something that we can add? Is there something
missing? Is there something we can add? How do we foster that,
sort of, entrepreneurial spirit? You see where I am going with
this?
Mr. Simmons. Yes, and that's a really, really tough
question, obviously. It is something that we are thinking about
frequently at the Department. If we necessarily knew what that
thing to add is, we would definitely be asking for it.
You know, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, is the
lab over which my office has stewardship, does really quite a
good job in this area, for example. One of the things that we
are thinking about and that we will be meeting with the Office
of Science and the Office of Technology Transitions in the
pretty near future on is a discussion of how do we incentivize
that innovation? How do we do a better job? How do we have that
focus on innovation?
We need to have a focus. We need the ideas. We need those
basic ideas. But then, we also need a focus on innovation for
getting those technologies into the real world. And it is an
exceedingly hard challenge, especially because the speed of
business is faster than the speed of government. And in some
way, that's not a bad thing, it just is, because we are
stewards of taxpayer dollars. So we need to be careful with how
we're spending that money. That said, we need to figure out how
to do that more efficiently, more quickly and the Office of
Technology Transition is focused on that right now.
Senator Cassidy. Out of your purview, but are there offices
say, NIH, NSF, others within the government that you see doing
a good job of commercializing, that hopefully can provide an
example of how we can do so elsewhere?
Mr. Simmons. I don't know of those, but that is, that is
something that we will look into.
Senator Cassidy. I will say it has been my observation
there is a university in Louisiana, Louisiana Tech. They do a
fabulous job of commercializing what they do. I think it is in
part because they kill all the lawyers first.
I am just teasing, for the record.
[Laughter.]
But of course, lawyers are so concerned about what is going
to happen if it doesn't go exactly right that nothing ever
goes.
On the other hand, if you are willing to accept that
occasionally there will be a rough edge, you end up with an ROI
that is much greater than otherwise.
I will just point that out. If there is something that you
need to do, I think, that would be bipartisan. If we need to
get, cut a little slack on a regulation, that would allow more
rapid commercialization because otherwise it dies aborning and
we don't want that.
We have these great labs. We are investing, and we would
invest more if we saw the fruits, if you will, rapidly being
translated into benefit for all society.
Senator Heinrich, do you have a follow-up?
Senator Heinrich. I do.
You know, some of that is our fault here in Washington,
because if you look at programs like the revolving loan funds
at DOE, we saw one company just absolutely pilloried a few
years ago in that program. But if you look at the program
overall, you have to accept the fact that a certain amount of
risk is inherent in it. And the performance of that program has
been spectacular.
You can always, you know, it is too easy for us to cherry-
pick one thing or another and not look at the overall
performance. Everyone knows the name Solyndra now, but the
reality is the cost of solar is remarkably low because of the
progress that was made overall.
I want to go back to the tech transfer issue for just a
minute, because I think there is a lot that you can do to make
tech transfer part of what DOE does.
I have had DOE, some very accomplished people, including a
secretary, say things effectively like that is not in our lane.
And I think making tech transfer a part of the culture at DOE
will make an enormous difference at those individual national
labs. Just being able to set a tone here in DC that says, this
is part of what we do as being the Department of Energy. And we
are going to encourage entrepreneurship. We are going to
encourage efforts to transfer technology, I think, would be
huge.
Secretary, you also mentioned soft costs when you were
talking about the grants that you are awarding right now.
Senator Collins and I have a bill that is designed really to
streamline and, for that matter, create an easy, more
standardized approach to soft cost, to permitting from a
locality, whether it is a municipality, a county, whoever the
local regulatory agency is when you are doing distributed
energy, not reinventing the wheel every time. Giving people the
tools to be able to do something, sort of, off-the-shelf.
Australia kicks our butts at this. If you look at the cost
of distributed energy in Australia, it is dramatically lower
than the United States because of those soft costs. I would
love to hear what you are doing now, since you are putting
grant dollars out in that direction. Anything the Department is
doing to bring those soft costs down and support those local
municipalities, counties, et cetera.
Mr. Simmons. Well, one of the things we're doing is looking
at those, looking at those best practices, providing
information so that local authorities having jurisdiction can
make--that they don't need to reinvent the wheel every single
time because that is, that is critical. We all, you know, local
officials are hardworking. They have many of things in their
portfolio. They do not need to reinvent the wheel----
Senator Heinrich. Right.
Mr. Simmons. ----when it comes to what it takes to install
solar----
Senator Heinrich. Those regulations, those codes are
designed for safety, but we know what the issues are. So,
making sure that that is part of any, sort of, off-the-shelf
solution is not a technically, particularly challenging
challenge.
Mr. Simmons. Yeah. And that's, that is really what that
funding is going to is to help reduce that, to help reduce that
red tape of not only solar, but also, as we look to the future,
solar plus batteries.
Senator Heinrich. Sure. Oh, absolutely. When I say solar,
these days, everybody is like, a large percentage of the
installments in many places include some level of energy
storage.
Power-to-gas, I want to ask you about that because it is
something that I think we are going to hear more and more about
on this Committee. The reality is for some applications we need
molecules to have the energy density to do the things that we
want to do.
One way to do that is through hydrolysis. And so, you are
seeing now, you know, we have a nuclear power plant in Arizona
that the New Mexico utilities use as a source of energy, but
they are now talking about power-to-gas as a portion of their
future. So basically, creating clean hydrogen, something that
burns and gives off water, but doing it with electricity. How
much work is DOE doing on power-to-gas right now?
Mr. Simmons. So this is a, I mean, this is an emerging area
of emphasis for us. So, for our Office of, for our Hydrogen and
Fuel Cell Technologies Office, one of the most important areas
is this idea of what we call hydrogen at scale which is looking
at a hydrogen economy and what are all the uses, possible uses
of hydrogen, what are all the ways where we can generate
hydrogen?
So, looking at it in that aspect, whether it is from
nuclear power, whether it is nuclear power using the heat, not
just necessarily electricity, whether it's from solar and
electricity or the heat from solar energy. Looking at, making
sure that we have everything on the table to figure out how to
do this in the most cost-effective way possible because there
is, the future is really wide open because of how flexible
hydrogen is as a fuel for vehicles, you know, for heavy duty
vehicles. It is, that's a great opportunity for it, for
example.
But also, it's, it can be a form of energy storage and
long-term storage. There are many opportunities but, you know,
one of the most important things is to then drive down the cost
of generating it.
Senator Heinrich. Right.
Mr. Simmons. And so, that's why it's critical.
And I'll also mention, along those same lines, is we're
thinking about synthetic fuels--hydrocarbon fuels need
hydrogen. It needs a source of carbon, whether that could come
from well, wherever you're getting your carbon dioxide and then
needs energy. Bringing those three things together to generate
synthetic fuels so that we can afford things such as airplanes
where we're not going to have electric airplanes in the next
ten years, for example.
Senator Cassidy. Senator McSally.
Senator McSally. Thank you, I appreciate this hearing,
Chairman Cassidy and Ranking Member Heinrich.
I have two bills that I am the lead Republican co-sponsor
on that we are considering today: the Promoting American Energy
Jobs Act with Senator Shaheen and the Solar Energy Research and
Development Act with my fellow Arizona Senator, Senator Sinema.
Arizona truly is a leader in all-of-the-above energy. We
have a large nuclear plant, natural gas, coal, but also hydro,
a growing solar capacity and biomass. In fact, we are the
fastest, one of the fastest growing anyway, in solar industry
nationwide. We are currently number three in installed solar
capacity. We were up from ninth place in 2018 and that is 7,500
jobs, $11 billion in investment in the state.
So both of the bills that I am leading on with my
colleagues will help support these diverse energy jobs in
Arizona and across the country and allow us to invest in more
innovation.
I did see today that DOE announced $128 million in new
research funding awards and there are several projects in
Arizona. So I really do appreciate the Department's work in
this area and continued investment in Arizona.
I want to first ask on the Solar Energy Research and
Development Act that Senator Sinema and I are on that bill. We
have, really, two of the most essential ingredients in Arizona
for solar research. It is, obviously we have open space and we
have sunshine. But we also have innovation in our universities
and private companies have been really investing billions in
solar technology development in Arizona, and we have lowered
that cost of solar energy by 32 percent over the last five
years.
Can you share your perspective on how this legislation will
continue to incentivize and encourage breakthroughs in
technology related to solar capability?
Mr. Simmons. Sure thing.
The one thing that is always, it is always good to have
direction from Congress. We'll just put it that way.
Senator McSally. Yes.
Mr. Simmons. And particularly in this, one of the things
that I've talked to the program offices a lot about is what
does our authorization say? What has Congress told us to do?
And so, it is very important for us to have updated
authorizations to consider today's challenges versus what was
maybe the, what people were thinking about the challenges for
solar energy, say 30 years ago? And that added emphasis is
important. We are obviously trying our best with the
authorization that we have but we will continue to fund solar
energy because the costs have come down so much. So it will
only be a more vital part of our energy system in the future.
Senator McSally. Great, thanks.
When we talk about clean energy technologies like solar, we
also need to talk about supply chain issues. Whenever I meet
with people who are very focused on these technologies like
solar, I say, you must be pro-mining because we obviously need
to be able to access important parts of the supply chain in
order to create these technologies and to store energy. And
that, sometimes, alarms people when they have to think about
the connection with that.
But part of our bill also, the bill I have with Senator
Sinema, is about authorizing innovative solar recycling R&D
programs so that we can increase the recovery and reuse of
materials including critical minerals. Can you just talk a
little bit about how we can have more efficient recycling work
in tandem with domestic mining operations to bring security and
stability to the clean energy supply chain?
Mr. Simmons. Sure.
And I'll start by emphasizing the mining angle. The World
Bank put out a report in 2017 and what they found in it is that
the clean energy economy, as they defined it--wind, solar,
additional batteries, EVs--is actually a more mineral intensive
economy than a fossil fuel economy.
Senator McSally. Exactly.
Mr. Simmons. And so, as we think about the future, it is
very important that we're thinking about where those minerals
come from. The United States is going to produce those
minerals, that we are going to produce them at the highest
environmental standards, the highest labor standards in the
world. So I think that is, first of all, that is an important
issue.
Second, when we have those, when we have these critical
minerals, in many cases, in the United States, it is very
helpful that we can do a good job recycling them.
With solar panels, in the very beginning they weren't
necessarily manufactured with recycling in mind. Now that is a
consideration that we're thinking about. That is an area of,
that our office is considering how do we take these solar
panels and make them more inherently recyclable? When wind,
when solar was a very small part of the electricity system, it
didn't matter so much. But it is not that way now and we need
to think about, like, the end of life considerations from the
very beginning because that is the way to make them inherently
recyclable as opposed to, you know, running into some real
serious recycling challenges.
Senator McSally. Great. Thank you, I appreciate it. My time
is up.
Senator Cassidy. I think we have come to the end----
Senator Heinrich. Can I----
Senator Cassidy. Sure.
Senator Heinrich. So I will put one more thing on your
radar screen. Since we were talking about power-to-gas, one of
the reasons why I have an interest in that is because of the
broad challenges that we see in the industrial heat sector.
If you look at electric generation, I think the end of the
story is practically written. We know where we are headed. We
know how it is going to decarbonize over time. We can see our
way to maybe 80 percent clean energy on the grid, and by the
time we get there we will be able to see, I believe, some of
the solutions for seasonal storage that get us to 100 percent.
We don't have those same solutions yet, and certainly not
the cost curve, which you referenced, when it comes to the
industrial heat sector. You can make hydrogen with a nuclear
power plant but a nuclear power plant can't create the heat
that you need for some of these processes.
So if you look at steel, aluminum, ammonia, glass,
concrete, all of the industrial heat processes, we are talking
about roughly ten percent, I think, of worldwide emissions. And
most of that is not necessarily process emissions as opposed to
generation emissions.
What we are doing at a holistic level is to look across the
board at that and say, here is one of the toughest places for
us to decarbonize, and we need a solution set that either isn't
available today or isn't cheap enough today, and how do we work
with industry to maybe create a center of excellence somewhere
in the DOE network and work with industry to bring those
emissions down?
Mr. Simmons. So the issue of process heating is one that
our Advanced Manufacturing Office is spending a lot of time
thinking about, about what that, for exactly the challenges
that you laid out, it is a huge consumer of energy. Ways to
make that more efficient results in, you know, U.S. businesses
being more, U.S. manufacturing being more competitive in a
global economy.
Again, it's not obvious what a lot of those solutions are,
but it is an area that we are actively thinking about whether
it is things such as microwaves, for example, in certain
applications, for heating or drying technologies. But we
recognize the challenge.
Senator Heinrich. It sounds like we have a lot of work to
do.
Mr. Simmons. We definitely have a lot of work to do.
Senator Cassidy. Thank you, Mr. Simmons.
Questions for the record are due by close of business
today.
Again, I thank you for your presence and thank my
colleagues for their presence.
This concludes the hearing.
[Whereupon, at 10:57 a.m. the hearing was adjourned.]
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