    [Senate Hearing 116-344]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                           S. Hrg. 116-344

                              PENDING LEGISLATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                             SUBCOMMITTEE ON ENERGY

                                     OF THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                         ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                       on

    S. 876                   S. 2556                  S. 2688
    S. 1890                  S. 2657                  S. 2702
    S. 2425                  S. 2660                  S. 2714
    S. 2508                  S. 2668

                                   __________

                                NOVEMBER 6, 2019

                                   __________

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                           Printed for the use of the
                   Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                   __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    39-870                      WASHINGTON : 2021

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                        LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman

    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
    MIKE LEE, Utah                       MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
    STEVE DAINES, Montana                BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
    BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
    CORY GARDNER, Colorado               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona              ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
    LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee           CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
                                     ------

                             Subcommittee on Energy

                             BILL CASSIDY, Chairman

    JAMES E. RISCH                       MARTIN HEINRICH
    MIKE LEE                             RON WYDEN
    STEVE DAINES                         MARIA CANTWELL
    CORY GARDNER                         BERNARD SANDERS
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH                     DEBBIE STABENOW
    MARTHA McSALLY                       MAZIE K. HIRONO
    LAMAR ALEXANDER                      ANGUS S. KING, JR.
    JOHN HOEVEN                          CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO

                          Brian Hughes, Staff Director
                         Kellie Donnelly, Chief Counsel
      Brianne Miller, Senior Professional Staff Member and Energy Policy
                                    Advisor
                          Jed Dearborn, Senior Counsel
                    Sarah Venuto, Democratic Staff Director
                    Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
                 Renae Black, Democratic Deputy Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Cassidy, Hon. Bill, Subcommittee Chairman and a U.S. Senator from
      Louisiana......................................................     1
    Heinrich, Hon. Martin, Subcommittee Ranking Member and a U.S.
      Senator from New Mexico........................................     2
    King, Jr., Hon. Angus S., a U.S. Senator from Maine..............     3
    Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska....     4
    Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine, a U.S. Senator from Nevada.........     5

                                   WITNESSES

    Smith, Hon. Tina, a U.S. Senator from Minnesota..................     3
    Simmons, Hon. Daniel, Assistant Secretary, Office of Energy
      Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE), U.S. Department of
      Energy.........................................................     6

              ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

    Advanced Energy Economy, et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................    51
    Alliance to Save Energy, et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................    53
    American Chemical Society:
        Letter for the Record........................................    55
    American Wind Energy Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................    57
    Cassidy, Hon. Bill:
        Opening Statement............................................     1
    ClearPath Action:
        Letter for the Record........................................    59
    Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine:
        Opening Statement............................................     5
    Cyrq Energy:
        Letter for the Record........................................    60
    Electric Power Supply Association:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    61
    Fervo Energy:
        Letter for the Record........................................    64
    Geothermal Exchange Organization:
        Letter for the Record........................................    65
    Geothermal Resource Group:
        Letter for the Record........................................    66
    Geothermal Resources Council:
        Letter for the Record........................................    68
    Heinrich, Hon. Martin:
        Opening Statement............................................     2
    King, Jr., Hon. Angus S.:
        Opening Statement............................................     3
    Murkowski, Hon. Lisa:
        Opening Statement............................................     4
    Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    70
    Simmons, Hon. Daniel:
        Opening Statement............................................     6
        Written Testimony............................................     9
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    26
    Smith, Hon. Tina:
        Opening Statement............................................     3
    Third Way:
        Letter for the Record........................................    71
    U.S. Green Building Council:
        Letter for the Record........................................    72

                                   __________

    The text for each of the bills which were addressed in this hearing can
    be found on the committee's website at: https://www.energy.senate.gov/
    hearings/2019/11/subcommittee-on-
    energy-legislative-hearing

                              PENDING LEGISLATION

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 6, 2019

                                   U.S. Senate,
                                Subcommittee on Energy,
                     Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m. in
    Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Bill Cassidy,
    presiding.

                OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BILL CASSIDY,
                      U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA

        Senator Cassidy [presiding]. The hearing is now in order.
    Thank you, everyone, for being here. The purpose of this
    hearing is to receive testimony on several bills, and this
    Subcommittee is now convening its third legislative hearing.
        The legislative hearing allows us to receive testimony and
    ask questions from the Assistant Secretary of the U.S.
    Department of Energy (DOE), Dan Simmons. Today's hearing is
    another opportunity to consider a wide range of bills aimed at
    emission reduction technology programs, cybersecurity and job
    training in the energy sector.
        One of the bills being considered is a bill I introduced
    with my colleague, Senator Whitehouse, the Technology
    Transition Act. The Office of Technology Transition works
    across the Department of Energy to turn innovative ideas into
    commercialization. This legislation builds on previous efforts
    from Congress and the Department of Energy. It puts the Office
    of Technology Transition (OTT) in a better position for
    success.
        In a competitive world, we need technology and innovation
    to lower emissions, and it is important we look for ways to
    speed scientific discovery and support national labs who carry
    out these efforts. We can show the world that through
    innovation, we can lower emissions and maintain a modern
    economy with robust employment. As this Committee continues to
    consider energy innovation bills, it is important that the
    right policies are in place to ensure research and development
    dollars are turned into commercialized technology.
        I will now turn to my colleague and friend, Ranking Member
    Heinrich.

                  STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH,
                      U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO

        Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman Cassidy, for holding
    our third legislative hearing this year in the Energy
    Subcommittee, and welcome to our witness, Assistant Secretary
    Simmons. Thank you for being here and for testifying.
        We have a good body of work to show for our efforts this
    year in the Energy Subcommittee. We reported out 22 energy
    bills in July, another 21 bills last month and we are moving
    another 11 bills through the Committee process in today's
    hearing.
        Our agenda today includes a wide-ranging group of bills,
    including measures to improve DOE's role in innovation and
    technology commercialization, make the most of nuclear energy
    to help decarbonize the grid, promote a skilled energy
    workforce, advance renewable energy, keep the grid safe from
    cyber threats, and improve energy efficiency. These are the
    types of bills that we should be able to build into a broadly
    supported, I believe, bipartisan energy package.
        I am especially pleased that Senator Cortez Masto's bill,
    the Renew America's Schools Act, is on the agenda. I am a co-
    sponsor of this bill which would establish a competitive grant
    program specifically targeted at low income populations to make
    energy efficiency upgrades, install clean energy and renewables
    for schools and, basically, lower schools' energy bills. Under
    this bill, grants could also be used to help schools transition
    to zero emissions vehicles and buses and install electric
    vehicle charging infrastructure. The bottom line is the bill
    would make our schools healthier with improved ventilation,
    daylighting, and air quality, and a number of studies have
    shown increased performance based on those kinds of changes.
        I am also pleased to see research and development
    authorization bills from Senator Sinema for solar energy, and
    Senator Smith, who has joined us, for wind energy, on today's
    agenda. Advancing non-polluting technology should be a critical
    element of any energy innovation package that this Committee
    might put together in the coming weeks.
        We also have two workforce and career development bills on
    the list. Ensuring that we have a strong energy workforce will
    be essential as we transition to a cleaner energy future. That
    is also why I have introduced S. 2393, the Clean Energy Jobs
    Act, with Senator Manchin, and I hope to see that bill on our
    next markup.
        Finally, I am glad to see this Committee continues to focus
    on programs at DOE that are at the forefront of driving
    innovation in our economy. In particular, Senators Van Hollen
    and Alexander's ARPA-E reauthorization bill ramps up funding
    over the next five years to be more in line with what we need
    to keep us at the cutting edge of energy technology globally.
        I also appreciate my colleague, Senator Cassidy, for
    introducing his Technology Transitions Act which codifies DOE's
    important Office of Technology Transitions. The bill is a
    companion to the bipartisan Technology Maturation legislation
    that Senator Gardner and I introduced earlier this year, and
    working to improve the process of tech transfer from DOE's 17
    laboratories to the private sector is a key priority.
        I look forward to working with Chairman Cassidy as well as
    the Chair and Ranking Member of the Full Committee to keep this
    momentum going. I think there has been some frustration with
    the pace of the Senate. I have certainly experienced that in
    this current legislative session and this current Congress, but
    we have some great bills here. I believe we can be the
    exception rather than the rule and really get some good energy
    bills done for our country.
        Thank you, Chairman.
        Senator Cassidy. Senator Smith, I believe you have an
    opening statement.

                     STATEMENT OF HON. TINA SMITH,
                      U.S. SENATOR FROM MINNESOTA

        Senator Smith. Thank you very much, Chair Cassidy and
    Ranking Member Heinrich. It's great to be back with the Energy
    Committee, and I really welcome the opportunity to testify here
    this morning.
        So today you are considering several important bills that
    would advance clean energy, the clean energy transition, and
    I'm happy to have my bill be a part of this conversation. I'm
    pleased to speak about this bipartisan bill that I've
    introduced with Senator Collins, the Wind Energy Research and
    Development Act. This bill would extend and expand the Wind
    Energy program at the Department of Energy.
        Now we know that wind energy is growing fast, and it now
    accounts for about 6.5 percent of total U.S. electric
    generation. And in Minnesota wind energy already accounts for
    nearly 20 percent of the electricity that we use in our state.
        Increased use of wind energy is not just good for our
    environment, it is also good for our economy. Wind supports
    114,000 jobs nationwide, and that number is growing. And
    importantly, wind energy boosts rural economies. Farmers can
    earn annual payments of anywhere between $4,000 and $8,000 per
    turbine and still farm underneath those turbines.
        So the federal research and development funding is crucial
    for continuing advancements in wind technology. I want the
    world to be installing U.S.-made wind turbines containing U.S.-
    patented technology. Wind research and development is key to
    building U.S. leadership. And as with every aspect of the clean
    energy revolution, we can lead or we can follow and I want the
    United States to lead.
        So, thank you, my colleagues, for hearing this bill today,
    and I ask for your support.
        Senator Cassidy. Are you moving back permanently to the
    Committee?
        Senator Smith. Well, that is a, I believe that that is
    above my pay grade, Senator, but I love this Committee very
    much and would love to be back.
        Thank you.
        Senator Cassidy. Senator King.

                 STATEMENT OF HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE

        Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I think the common denominator, as we have been discussing
    this morning, is innovation which is really, I believe, the key
    to the energy future. Innovation in storage. Innovation in low-
    carbon fuels. Innovation in cleaner deployment of fossil fuels.
        I think we have a lot on our plate here today. I am
    delighted to see Mr. Simmons here. We have worked together in
    the past, and I think they are really doing a great job.
        The bill that I am particularly interested in involves
    something called CHP, combined heat and power. We used to call
    it co-generation but it is a very sensible technology to get
    both electricity and heat, use the heat made in the generation
    of electricity in useful ways and, therefore, much more
    efficiently, use whatever the resources are that are generating
    the electricity.
        There is a technical assistance program Mr. Simmons knows
    about. The University of Maine is the center of this in New
    England. I think it has been very effective. The bill that I am
    proposing today would extend that program and, I think,
    underlies the benefits.
        So innovation and the next generation of energy technology
    is really what we are after here. I look forward to working
    with the Committee. The Committee, as Senator Henrich points
    out, has had a really good, great record this year of
    legislation. Now we have to see what we can do to get it across
    the finish line on the Floor of the Senate. But I am proud of
    the work that we have done thus far and look forward to our
    work today. Thank you.
        Senator Cassidy. Senator Murkowski.

                   STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA

        The Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Senator Heinrich, thank you for
    this Subcommittee hearing today. Good bills before the
    Subcommittee, and I wanted to just say a couple words about two
    of the bills that we have on the agenda today.
        The first one I would like to address is the Protecting
    Resources On The Electric grid with Cybersecurity Technology,
    or PROTECT, Act. This is something that Senator Manchin has
    been working on with me, along with Senators Risch, King and
    Cantwell. What we do with this legislation is enhance the
    security of our nation's electric grid by providing electric
    utilities with incentives, grants and technical assistance to
    invest in innovative cybersecurity technology that improves
    their security posture over and above the level that is
    required by industry standards.
        I think we all recognize the role, the importance of our
    electric grid, on really every sector of our economy. But what
    we are hoping to do with this Act is to strengthen the
    cybersecurity partnership between private industry and the
    Federal Government and to deploy more advanced cybersecurity
    technologies. This is something we talk a lot about in this
    Committee, and I think this is one of those just, again,
    commonsense measures that will move us one step closer.
        The other bill that the Subcommittee is going to be taking
    up this morning is the Advanced Geothermal Innovation
    Leadership Act. We call this the AGILE Act. I am co-sponsoring
    this with Senator Manchin. Some might not think of West
    Virginia or Alaska as being states that have geothermal
    resources, but that is really what this Act is all about.
    Hopefully it will enable us to unlock new technologies to allow
    for affordable geothermal heat and power, really anywhere, in
    the country.
        So what we do is update our national assessment of
    geothermal resources to encompass new technologies and market
    opportunities like underground heat storage. We expand
    geothermal energy research into important secondary uses like
    mineral recovery. We create a prize competition for the co-
    production of minerals from geothermal brines. We also jump-
    start enhanced geothermal by authorizing four demonstration
    projects including, for the first time, one on the Eastern half
    of the United States, that is obviously of interest to Senator
    Manchin, but we also improve permitting for developing
    geothermal resources on federal lands. This is a process that
    right now is taking anywhere from seven to ten years. So you
    look at that and you just say, there has to be a better way.
        When you think about geothermal as a baseload renewable
    energy resource with huge potential, any of you that have ever
    had an opportunity to go visit Iceland and see what that nation
    has done. It is really quite remarkable. Now obviously they
    have a resource that is much more accessible, but what we have
    learned is that the technologies that helped bring the shale
    revolution to this country are the same types of technologies
    that can help us with regards to geothermal.
        So we are excited about that one and as we think about the
    different renewables that we are putting forward in this
    Committee, whether it is the solar, the wind, the geothermal.
    Senator Wyden has an ocean energies water resources bill. There
    are some good things that are coming together so it is quite
    exciting, and I am pleased that the Subcommittee is focused on
    it.
        Thank you.
        Senator Cassidy. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Senator Cortez Masto.

               STATEMENT OF HON. CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM NEVADA

        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you to the Chairman
    and Ranking Member.
        Let me just say one thing about geothermal--we are very
    supportive in Nevada. We have a lot of geothermal energy, and
    it is not only a benefit to some of our commercial businesses,
    but residential as well. So I am a big fan and look forward to
    working with the Committee and my colleagues on promoting more
    geothermal.
        I also want to thank both the Chairman and Ranking Member
    for including my bill, the Renew America's Schools Act, which
    is
    S. 1890, among the legislation being considered during today's
    hearing. This Committee has taken up the issue of energy
    efficiency and widely agrees that one of the most immediate
    actions we can take to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions is
    to improve our buildings and maybe even our vehicles to drive
    down the use of energy needed to power our everyday lives.
        My bill would create a federal grant program available to K
    through 12 schools to make energy efficiency improvements to
    lighting, heating, cooling, and ventilation systems, install
    renewable energy technologies to power our public schools, and
    purchase zero emissions vehicles and install the necessary
    infrastructure for those vehicles. Modernizing our schools to
    make them more energy efficient not only helps drive down
    emissions in our communities, but it also helps reduce our
    school's energy costs, leaving more money in school budgets for
    supplies and programs that directly benefit our children.
        That is just one example of what this bill aims to address.
    Millions of young students ride diesel buses to school every
    day. Studies have shown that the air inside of these buses can
    be up to five times more polluted than the air outside the bus.
    Transitioning away from diesel buses to electric vehicles would
    immediately improve the air our children breathe on their way
    to school and reduce the health risks that result from
    emissions exposure and impede a student's ability to learn.
        The Renew America's Schools Act saves our schools money,
    and it makes our communities healthier. I invite my colleagues
    in the Senate to join me on this bill and look forward to the
    thoughtful discussion during today's hearing.
        Thank you.
        Senator Cassidy. Mr. Simmons, I believe you are up.

     STATEMENT OF HON. DANIEL SIMMONS, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, OFFICE
        OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY (EERE), U.S.
                          DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

        Mr. Simmons. Thank you.
        Chairman Cassidy, Ranking Member Heinrich, Chairman
    Murkowski, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. And
    before I get to my testimony, I'll just note that a few minutes
    ago we announced $128 million in selections on our Solar FOA
    for the year. That is $23 million for photovoltaic solar
    research, $30 million for CSP research and development, $17
    million for projects on balance in system soft costs, $6.8
    million for innovations in manufacturing for a hardware
    incubator and $50 million for advanced solar systems
    integration technologies. That went out a few minutes ago. I
    don't even know if it's public yet, but it has been sent to
    your staff. So we're very excited about that, about those
    awards, and look forward to seeing the technologies and
    improvements that comes from that funding.
        I've been asked to testify on 11 bills today addressing a
    range of important energy issues. The Administration continues
    to review all these bills, and I appreciate the ongoing
    bipartisan efforts to address our nation's energy challenges. I
    look forward to working with the Committee. The bills being
    discussed today address many important energy technologies and
    activities at the Department of Energy.
        The Renew America's Schools Act would authorize and direct
    the Secretary of Energy to award competitive grants for energy
    efficiency and renewable energy projects at public schools. The
    Department currently provides technical assistance to a number
    of K through 12 schools across the country to help them achieve
    voluntary commitments of a 20 percent or better energy savings
    in their facilities through the Better Buildings Challenge.
    While the Department continues to review this legislation, we
    support improving energy efficiency and reducing energy costs
    for schools and other buildings.
        The CHP Support Act amends the Energy Policy and
    Conservation Act to establish a combined heat and power
    technical assistance partnership program, reauthorizing
    existing CHP technical assistance partnerships in the
    Department's Advanced Manufacturing Office. The program would
    continue to provide education and outreach to building,
    industrial, electric and natural gas utility professionals,
    state and local policymakers and other stakeholders with an
    interest in not only CHP but also in waste heat to power and
    efficient district energy technologies.
        The Promoting American Energy Security Jobs Act would
    direct the Secretary to establish a council to conduct a survey
    and analysis of the employment figures and demographics in the
    energy, energy efficiency and motor vehicle sectors in the
    United States. Like many others in the Department of Energy, I
    recognize the need for a skilled and technical workforce for
    energy sector careers. I look forward to working with the
    Committee to identify and implement strategies to ensure that
    America continues to cultivate capable energy workforces.
        The PROTECT Act amends the Federal Power Act to provide
    energy cybersecurity investment incentives to establish a grant
    and technical assistance program for cybersecurity investments.
    The Department understands the challenges and risks that
    cybersecurity poses to our energy infrastructure. The
    Department's Office of Cybersecurity, Energy Security, and
    Emergency Response addresses the emerging threats of tomorrow
    while protecting the reliable flow of energy to Americans today
    to improve energy infrastructure security and support the
    nation's national security, the Department's national security
    mission.
        The AGILE Act aims to accelerate geothermal energy
    development in the U.S. by addressing technical and non-
    technical barriers to geothermal in both electric and direct
    use sectors. The bill would achieve this through promoting
    research and development, encourage technology transfer from
    the geothermal and oil and gas industries and explore ways to
    improve federal permit coordination. The Department's
    Geothermal Technology Office is currently working to address
    many challenges concerning geothermal development. The Office
    recently published the GeoVision analysis which found that
    optimizing permitting timelines could reduce costs and
    facilitate geothermal capacity development, potentially
    doubling installed geothermal capacity by 2050.
        The Solar Energy Research Development and Demonstration
    Program Act reauthorizes the activities of EERE's Solar Energy
    Technology Office and outlines several research priority areas
    such as improving the energy efficiency, reliability and
    security of solar energy technologies while also focusing on
    reducing the overall cost of energy systems. The bill
    authorizes additional work to be carried out by the Solar
    Office such as providing technical assistance, supporting
    workforce development and training activities and awarding
    grants to carry out both research and development and
    demonstration projects.
        The Wind Energy Research and Development Act reauthorizes
    the activities of EERE's Wind Office and outlines several
    research priority areas such as improving the energy
    efficiency, reliability and capability of wind generation and
    supports the development of innovative designs for both land
    use and offshore wind technologies. The bill also outlines
    several grant subject areas including research and development
    on recycling and reuse of wind energy technology components and
    grants to help mitigate regulatory and market barriers.
        The Technology Transition Act codifies the Office of
    Technology Transitions at the Department of Energy and to
    expand the commercial impact of the Department's research
    investments and focus on commercializing technologies that
    reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This bill reiterates the work
    of the Department under the leadership of the Secretary as
    undertaken as part of the existing Office of Technology
    Transitions. This Office will highlight the Department's vast
    research capabilities which are so important to ensuring our
    domestic energy and national security as well as American
    economic competitiveness.
        The Integrated Energy Systems Act would direct the
    Secretary of Energy to establish an integrated energy systems
    research development and demonstration program between multiple
    department offices including the Nuclear Energy Office to be
    known as the Integrated Energy Systems Program. The intent of
    the program is to maximize energy production and efficiency;
    improve reliable, competitive, environmentally sustainable
    electricity to the grid; expand the use of emissions-reducing
    technologies and enable the U.S. energy infrastructure to
    support the quantity and variability of the types of size of
    generation devices and smart load devices of the future.
        The Energy Jobs for our Heroes Act would establish the
    ``Energy Ready Vets Program'' which would help prepare veterans
    for careers in the energy industry. The program will allow
    eligible participants to earn an applicable energy industry-
    recognized entry level certificate or other credential which
    would be carried through the skill bridge program of the
    Department of Defense. The Department of Energy supports the
    bill's goals of strengthening energy job training opportunities
    for our nation's veterans.
        And the ARPA-E Reauthorization Act would reauthorize, would
    authorize a significant increase in the Department's Advanced
    Research Projects Agency-Energy (ARPA-E) funding from $428
    million in FY 2020 to $750 million in FY 2024. The bill would
    also reauthorize ARPA-E to support projects that improve the
    resilience, reliability and security of the nation's energy
    infrastructure. While the Department continues to review the
    legislation, we remain in strong support of ARPA-E's early-
    stage, high-risk energy technology solutions.
        In conclusion, thank you very much for the opportunity to
    testify before the Subcommittee today. The Department
    appreciates the ongoing, bipartisan efforts to address our
    nation's energy challenges and look forward to working with the
    Committee on today's bills and any future legislation. I'd be
    happy to answer your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Simmons follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Cassidy. Senator Heinrich and I have to be here no
    matter what, so we are going to defer to Senator Cortez Masto
    to begin the questioning.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, I appreciate that.
        Mr. Simmons, thanks for being here today. It is good to see
    you again.
        Let me start with increasing energy efficiency in schools,
    and thank you for your comments regarding the Renew America's
    Schools Act.
        Energy costs for K through 12 schools total approximately
    $8 billion annually nationwide. But according to the EPA, $2
    billion of these dollars can be saved by improving energy
    efficiency. In your testimony you mentioned that the Department
    of Energy currently provides technical assistance to a number
    of K through 12 schools across the country to help them achieve
    voluntary commitments of 20 percent or better energy savings in
    their facilities through the Better Buildings Challenge. Thank
    you very much.
        Do you believe that the Renew America's Schools Act will
    assist DOE in achieving these targets?
        Mr. Simmons. What the--with achieving those--with helping
    those schools achieve those targets, yes. Anytime that we have
    increased emphasis coming from Congress, it is obviously very
    important to the Department because we strive to meet, well, we
    strive to follow Congressional guidance, but more important, we
    very much strive to meet our statutory obligations.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, I appreciate that.
        Let's talk about conversations we have had on cybersecurity
    and workforce and the lack of the workforce to help us with
    cybersecurity needs. So let me ask you this. As we work to
    implement newer, smarter energy technologies, is there more DOE
    can be doing to reduce the risk of cyberattacks? And how can we
    help in this conversation?
        Mr. Simmons. There is definitely more that we could be
    doing. We're obviously doing a lot. Our Office of--the
    Secretary has emphasized the cybersecurity work with the
    standing up of the Cybersecurity for Energy Security and
    Emergency Response. That office is a new office that there
    isn't, it is not--we do not have a ton of people currently
    working in that office, for example. So more people is one
    answer where----
        Senator Cortez Masto. And is that a challenge? Can you
    address that, I mean?
        Mr. Simmons. Well, it would be----
        Senator Cortez Masto. Are we having an issue because there
    is a lack of the workforce, the skills needed to fill that
    office, or what are the challenges there?
        Mr. Simmons. It would be easiest to address in questions
    for the record, just to be clear since it's not my office.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Okay, fair enough.
        Mr. Simmons. I think that we have the skills but it's also,
    it is a new office that is dealing with a rapidly changing
    situation in cybersecurity and they definitely need appropriate
    resources to carry that out.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Okay, I appreciate that.
        Geothermal, we talked a little bit about that earlier, and
    I so appreciate the work that our Chairman Murkowski and our
    Ranking Member Manchin have done to include geothermal in
    today's discussion. I know that geothermal energy will play a
    key role in the fight against climate change by providing
    clean, renewable, low-carbon energy to the U.S. electricity
    grid.
        Looking into the future, the large-scale deployment of
    renewable electricity generation will require additional
    transmission to connect renewable resources which are
    widespread across the United States and regionally constrained,
    to load centers. Current interconnection issues facing
    geothermal power differ greatly from those affecting wind power
    or other renewable technologies, and assessing regional markets
    via new transmission largely depends on the ability to
    aggregate several geothermal plants in the same area or on
    aggregating geothermal with other complementary generating
    technologies in renewable energy zones.
        Based on your expertise, what is the best way to accelerate
    transmission upgrades across the country and what is the best
    way for DOE to contribute?
        Mr. Simmons. You know, that answer is, again, squarely
    within the Office of Electricity's area which, so we'll be
    happy to provide a more expansive answer with the testimony
    later.
        Senator Cortez Masto. I will submit those as well from----
        Mr. Simmons. And it is really challenging to build
    transmission in this country, especially long-distance
    transmission. One good example of that is a power line called
    Sunrise Powerlink that took, that was, well, that currently
    takes electricity from the Imperial Valley in California to the
    coast.
        It is California. They wanted to produce the, you know,
    they want to produce the solar power. They want to use it on
    the coast. Everything is a piece of cake in that sense. And it
    was incredibly difficult to permit and took years and tons and
    tons of money. And so, the regulatory challenges of power lines
    are very difficult.
        Secretary Perry, when he was Governor of Texas, was able to
    do that in Texas but that is a single state. Anytime that we're
    also then crossing borders, when it is federal land, federal
    and state and private land, there are just incredible
    challenges to, incredible permitting challenges. And reducing
    those challenges are, is, I think, a priority, not only for
    geothermal, for wind, for solar, for all of our energy
    generating resources.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Yes, no, I appreciate that. Thank
    you.
        Senator Cassidy. Do you want to go?
        Senator Heinrich. Sure.
        Thank you for being with us. I want to piggyback on that
    because transmission has been something I have worked a great
    deal on in New Mexico. We have had luck on certain lines and
    been able to get big things done. At other times, we have
    experienced exactly what you said, although it has not always
    been the regulatory hurdles. Oftentimes, it has been, frankly,
    political hurdles. And we have seen that with lines, like Clean
    Line. There is a best-selling book out there about it right
    now. So we do need to figure this transmission thing out.
        I gave a speech recently to a bunch of folks working on
    transmission in Canada and the United States. One of the things
    that I talked about is the potential to look at financing
    incentives to make it easier to build those big, regionally
    significant, multistate projects.
        One thing that would actually have a relatively low price
    tag would be extending an investment tax credit to regionally
    significant projects as a way to leverage the financing and buy
    more time to get those projects done. Is that something that
    you have looked at at DOE, and what are your thoughts, off the
    top of your head?
        Mr. Simmons. That is not something that we have looked at
    at DOE, investment tax credits in that situation. But you know,
    from a very broad perspective, that financing is obviously
    critical and when we have these other hurdles, whether they're
    political, whether they're regulatory, it just increases those
    financing costs and makes those projects much more difficult.
        Senator Heinrich. Well, heads up, you may be seeing
    legislation on that front. So it is--would love DOE's thoughts.
        The next big wave of wind power projects--and we have seen
    some incredibly successful wind power projects really
    reinvigorate rural communities in Eastern New Mexico, in
    particular. Some very healthy lease rates to farmers is making
    all the difference in the world. You know, when you can get
    over $10,000 a turbine in terms of a payback, that can mean the
    difference between having a farm that is profitable and having
    one that is not, even if you only have one or two turbines on a
    farm.
        But the next big wave of wind power projects is going to be
    offshore. That is not what we are going to do in New Mexico,
    but there is huge power demands all up and down the Eastern
    Seaboard, and very favorable conditions.
        Senator King. You will, unless we get climate change under
    control.
        Senator Heinrich. Okay.
        Senator King. The New Mexico coastline is what I am----
        Senator Heinrich. Yes, I gotcha, okay.
        [Laughter.]
        We may have offshore at some point in the future.
        I would like to know, what is DOE doing now, specifically,
    to bring down the cost curve the way we have seen it in
    terrestrial wind for offshore wind?
        Mr. Simmons. So offshore wind is one of the key areas of
    emphasis for us because it is a--as you mention we have seen
    that cost curve really decline in terms of onshore wind.
    Offshore, we haven't seen that as much, plus deployment in the
    United States we have, I think, four turbines in the water is
    all. So that there is a----
        Senator Heinrich. One project, Block Island.
        Mr. Simmons. One project.
        And so there is a lot of opportunity. So we have offshore
    wind demonstration projects. One is the University of Maine,
    another one in Lake Erie that we are funding. We also have,
    there's some new funding to look at ways to improve offshore
    wind technology, looking at things such as superconducting
    generators, for example, because one of the real challenges
    when you have these very large machines at 12 or, at 12
    megawatt machines or even bigger, is that you want less weight
    in the nacelle in the top of those machines.
        Senator Heinrich. Right.
        Mr. Simmons. And so, ways that we could drive down those--
    that weight.
        Senator Heinrich. So basically material science to----
        Mr. Simmons. It is.
        Senator Heinrich. ----to change the nature of what is
    currently very heavy machinery at the apex of the turbine and
    nacelle.
        Mr. Simmons. Very heavy machinery and then as we have these
    longer blades, making sure that those longer blades are also,
    you know, structurally sound as well as, you know, looking to
    the future. And as we are recycling these blades, looking at
    ways to make sure that the wind blades are inherently
    recyclable.
        Senator Heinrich. Right. Good.
        Mr. Simmons. That hasn't necessarily been a big issue so
    far because of----
        Senator Heinrich. But it will be in the future.
        Mr. Simmons. But it will be in the future.
        Senator Heinrich. I think it is worth just pointing out
    what you said about, you know, a 10 to 12 megawatt, a single
    turbine producing 10 to 12 megawatts. I mean, that is pretty
    incredible when you think about that. And we are talking about
    capacity factors that are nudging above 50 percent. So capacity
    factors that are in excess of what we see from coal generation
    in the spring months in the United States. This is an enormous
    game changer.
        Senator Cassidy. Senator King, did you want to ask
    questions?
        Senator King. Well, I just wanted to add to that and thank
    the Department for its steadfast support of the Aqua Ventus
    program in Maine which, I think, is one of the most promising
    technologies. We are at the beginning of the cost curve because
    there are not significant or there are not a substantial number
    of projects. That will happen, but your support, the
    Department's support, consistently, has meant a lot. And I
    think that project is really getting very close to having all
    the pieces together. So I wanted to thank you for that.
        And also, thank you for your interest in combined heat and
    power. That is a technology that we have in hand, and I know
    the Department has been supportive. You have been up to the
    University, and the technical support center, I think, is
    making a real difference for businesses throughout the country
    actually.
        So I think the Department has identified something like 150
    gigawatts of potential power from combined heat and power
    potential in the country. That compares to 300 good-sized power
    plants. So very efficient use, and I appreciate your work and
    look forward to continuing to work with you on these projects.
        Mr. Simmons. Thank you.
        Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Cassidy. Mr. Simmons, thank you for being here.
        So this is on my mind. I have a friend. He is very proud
    his son works for the Livermore lab. The bill that I and others
    are promoting is the Office of Technology Transitions,
    elevating it, if you will in the, kind of, chart, to have more
    authority, if you will.
        How do you imagine your office working with an elevated
    authority OTT to take all this great research occurring at
    places like Livermore into the private sector? First question.
        Mr. Simmons. Well, this is--this, I believe, is critical
    work. It is not enough for us to do science projects. We need
    to get those science projects into the real world. They need to
    be, you know, our goal is obviously to commercialize those in
    the United States.
        A good example of both us doing a fantastic job and maybe
    not the best job is the recent Nobel Prize for Chemistry. Two
    of the three winners of that award have been funded by the
    Department of Energy for years. So kudos to my predecessors in
    the Office. Kudos to the staff for funding those technologies,
    because lithium-ion battery technologies have literally changed
    the world.
        That is fantastic. But we look at that today and we say,
    this technology was, you know, in large measure created in the
    United States and where are we today in terms of manufacturing?
    We need a focus on R&D around manufacturing so that we don't
    just create the knowledge but we're also then creating those,
    we're creating the manufacturing, those jobs here in the United
    States.
        Senator Cassidy. So, let me ask.
        Mr. Simmons. That is a challenge.
        Senator Cassidy. So let me ask. You are obviously talking
    about not just the genesis of a new paradigm, but also the
    production process by which that becomes commercially viable.
    Fair statement?
        Mr. Simmons. Correct, correct.
        Senator Cassidy. Now I find, I come from academia, and I
    find that there are some academic institutions--which I think
    of our major labs as being academic--that are very good at
    translation with an entrepreneurial spirit and others, not.
    There is some linchpin that is lacking.
        And I think when you think of prestigious universities,
    Stanford's done a fantastic job of commercializing the product
    of their faculty and spin-offs from their grad students into
    things that we can all immediately recognize. Equally
    prestigious universities, not so much.
        Is there something that we can add? Is there something
    missing? Is there something we can add? How do we foster that,
    sort of, entrepreneurial spirit? You see where I am going with
    this?
        Mr. Simmons. Yes, and that's a really, really tough
    question, obviously. It is something that we are thinking about
    frequently at the Department. If we necessarily knew what that
    thing to add is, we would definitely be asking for it.
        You know, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, is the
    lab over which my office has stewardship, does really quite a
    good job in this area, for example. One of the things that we
    are thinking about and that we will be meeting with the Office
    of Science and the Office of Technology Transitions in the
    pretty near future on is a discussion of how do we incentivize
    that innovation? How do we do a better job? How do we have that
    focus on innovation?
        We need to have a focus. We need the ideas. We need those
    basic ideas. But then, we also need a focus on innovation for
    getting those technologies into the real world. And it is an
    exceedingly hard challenge, especially because the speed of
    business is faster than the speed of government. And in some
    way, that's not a bad thing, it just is, because we are
    stewards of taxpayer dollars. So we need to be careful with how
    we're spending that money. That said, we need to figure out how
    to do that more efficiently, more quickly and the Office of
    Technology Transition is focused on that right now.
        Senator Cassidy. Out of your purview, but are there offices
    say, NIH, NSF, others within the government that you see doing
    a good job of commercializing, that hopefully can provide an
    example of how we can do so elsewhere?
        Mr. Simmons. I don't know of those, but that is, that is
    something that we will look into.
        Senator Cassidy. I will say it has been my observation
    there is a university in Louisiana, Louisiana Tech. They do a
    fabulous job of commercializing what they do. I think it is in
    part because they kill all the lawyers first.
        I am just teasing, for the record.
        [Laughter.]
        But of course, lawyers are so concerned about what is going
    to happen if it doesn't go exactly right that nothing ever
    goes.
        On the other hand, if you are willing to accept that
    occasionally there will be a rough edge, you end up with an ROI
    that is much greater than otherwise.
        I will just point that out. If there is something that you
    need to do, I think, that would be bipartisan. If we need to
    get, cut a little slack on a regulation, that would allow more
    rapid commercialization because otherwise it dies aborning and
    we don't want that.
        We have these great labs. We are investing, and we would
    invest more if we saw the fruits, if you will, rapidly being
    translated into benefit for all society.
        Senator Heinrich, do you have a follow-up?
        Senator Heinrich. I do.
        You know, some of that is our fault here in Washington,
    because if you look at programs like the revolving loan funds
    at DOE, we saw one company just absolutely pilloried a few
    years ago in that program. But if you look at the program
    overall, you have to accept the fact that a certain amount of
    risk is inherent in it. And the performance of that program has
    been spectacular.
        You can always, you know, it is too easy for us to cherry-
    pick one thing or another and not look at the overall
    performance. Everyone knows the name Solyndra now, but the
    reality is the cost of solar is remarkably low because of the
    progress that was made overall.
        I want to go back to the tech transfer issue for just a
    minute, because I think there is a lot that you can do to make
    tech transfer part of what DOE does.
        I have had DOE, some very accomplished people, including a
    secretary, say things effectively like that is not in our lane.
    And I think making tech transfer a part of the culture at DOE
    will make an enormous difference at those individual national
    labs. Just being able to set a tone here in DC that says, this
    is part of what we do as being the Department of Energy. And we
    are going to encourage entrepreneurship. We are going to
    encourage efforts to transfer technology, I think, would be
    huge.
        Secretary, you also mentioned soft costs when you were
    talking about the grants that you are awarding right now.
    Senator Collins and I have a bill that is designed really to
    streamline and, for that matter, create an easy, more
    standardized approach to soft cost, to permitting from a
    locality, whether it is a municipality, a county, whoever the
    local regulatory agency is when you are doing distributed
    energy, not reinventing the wheel every time. Giving people the
    tools to be able to do something, sort of, off-the-shelf.
        Australia kicks our butts at this. If you look at the cost
    of distributed energy in Australia, it is dramatically lower
    than the United States because of those soft costs. I would
    love to hear what you are doing now, since you are putting
    grant dollars out in that direction. Anything the Department is
    doing to bring those soft costs down and support those local
    municipalities, counties, et cetera.
        Mr. Simmons. Well, one of the things we're doing is looking
    at those, looking at those best practices, providing
    information so that local authorities having jurisdiction can
    make--that they don't need to reinvent the wheel every single
    time because that is, that is critical. We all, you know, local
    officials are hardworking. They have many of things in their
    portfolio. They do not need to reinvent the wheel----
        Senator Heinrich. Right.
        Mr. Simmons. ----when it comes to what it takes to install
    solar----
        Senator Heinrich. Those regulations, those codes are
    designed for safety, but we know what the issues are. So,
    making sure that that is part of any, sort of, off-the-shelf
    solution is not a technically, particularly challenging
    challenge.
        Mr. Simmons. Yeah. And that's, that is really what that
    funding is going to is to help reduce that, to help reduce that
    red tape of not only solar, but also, as we look to the future,
    solar plus batteries.
        Senator Heinrich. Sure. Oh, absolutely. When I say solar,
    these days, everybody is like, a large percentage of the
    installments in many places include some level of energy
    storage.
        Power-to-gas, I want to ask you about that because it is
    something that I think we are going to hear more and more about
    on this Committee. The reality is for some applications we need
    molecules to have the energy density to do the things that we
    want to do.
        One way to do that is through hydrolysis. And so, you are
    seeing now, you know, we have a nuclear power plant in Arizona
    that the New Mexico utilities use as a source of energy, but
    they are now talking about power-to-gas as a portion of their
    future. So basically, creating clean hydrogen, something that
    burns and gives off water, but doing it with electricity. How
    much work is DOE doing on power-to-gas right now?
        Mr. Simmons. So this is a, I mean, this is an emerging area
    of emphasis for us. So, for our Office of, for our Hydrogen and
    Fuel Cell Technologies Office, one of the most important areas
    is this idea of what we call hydrogen at scale which is looking
    at a hydrogen economy and what are all the uses, possible uses
    of hydrogen, what are all the ways where we can generate
    hydrogen?
        So, looking at it in that aspect, whether it is from
    nuclear power, whether it is nuclear power using the heat, not
    just necessarily electricity, whether it's from solar and
    electricity or the heat from solar energy. Looking at, making
    sure that we have everything on the table to figure out how to
    do this in the most cost-effective way possible because there
    is, the future is really wide open because of how flexible
    hydrogen is as a fuel for vehicles, you know, for heavy duty
    vehicles. It is, that's a great opportunity for it, for
    example.
        But also, it's, it can be a form of energy storage and
    long-term storage. There are many opportunities but, you know,
    one of the most important things is to then drive down the cost
    of generating it.
        Senator Heinrich. Right.
        Mr. Simmons. And so, that's why it's critical.
        And I'll also mention, along those same lines, is we're
    thinking about synthetic fuels--hydrocarbon fuels need
    hydrogen. It needs a source of carbon, whether that could come
    from well, wherever you're getting your carbon dioxide and then
    needs energy. Bringing those three things together to generate
    synthetic fuels so that we can afford things such as airplanes
    where we're not going to have electric airplanes in the next
    ten years, for example.
        Senator Cassidy. Senator McSally.
        Senator McSally. Thank you, I appreciate this hearing,
    Chairman Cassidy and Ranking Member Heinrich.
        I have two bills that I am the lead Republican co-sponsor
    on that we are considering today: the Promoting American Energy
    Jobs Act with Senator Shaheen and the Solar Energy Research and
    Development Act with my fellow Arizona Senator, Senator Sinema.
        Arizona truly is a leader in all-of-the-above energy. We
    have a large nuclear plant, natural gas, coal, but also hydro,
    a growing solar capacity and biomass. In fact, we are the
    fastest, one of the fastest growing anyway, in solar industry
    nationwide. We are currently number three in installed solar
    capacity. We were up from ninth place in 2018 and that is 7,500
    jobs, $11 billion in investment in the state.
        So both of the bills that I am leading on with my
    colleagues will help support these diverse energy jobs in
    Arizona and across the country and allow us to invest in more
    innovation.
        I did see today that DOE announced $128 million in new
    research funding awards and there are several projects in
    Arizona. So I really do appreciate the Department's work in
    this area and continued investment in Arizona.
        I want to first ask on the Solar Energy Research and
    Development Act that Senator Sinema and I are on that bill. We
    have, really, two of the most essential ingredients in Arizona
    for solar research. It is, obviously we have open space and we
    have sunshine. But we also have innovation in our universities
    and private companies have been really investing billions in
    solar technology development in Arizona, and we have lowered
    that cost of solar energy by 32 percent over the last five
    years.
        Can you share your perspective on how this legislation will
    continue to incentivize and encourage breakthroughs in
    technology related to solar capability?
        Mr. Simmons. Sure thing.
        The one thing that is always, it is always good to have
    direction from Congress. We'll just put it that way.
        Senator McSally. Yes.
        Mr. Simmons. And particularly in this, one of the things
    that I've talked to the program offices a lot about is what
    does our authorization say? What has Congress told us to do?
        And so, it is very important for us to have updated
    authorizations to consider today's challenges versus what was
    maybe the, what people were thinking about the challenges for
    solar energy, say 30 years ago? And that added emphasis is
    important. We are obviously trying our best with the
    authorization that we have but we will continue to fund solar
    energy because the costs have come down so much. So it will
    only be a more vital part of our energy system in the future.
        Senator McSally. Great, thanks.
        When we talk about clean energy technologies like solar, we
    also need to talk about supply chain issues. Whenever I meet
    with people who are very focused on these technologies like
    solar, I say, you must be pro-mining because we obviously need
    to be able to access important parts of the supply chain in
    order to create these technologies and to store energy. And
    that, sometimes, alarms people when they have to think about
    the connection with that.
        But part of our bill also, the bill I have with Senator
    Sinema, is about authorizing innovative solar recycling R&D
    programs so that we can increase the recovery and reuse of
    materials including critical minerals. Can you just talk a
    little bit about how we can have more efficient recycling work
    in tandem with domestic mining operations to bring security and
    stability to the clean energy supply chain?
        Mr. Simmons. Sure.
        And I'll start by emphasizing the mining angle. The World
    Bank put out a report in 2017 and what they found in it is that
    the clean energy economy, as they defined it--wind, solar,
    additional batteries, EVs--is actually a more mineral intensive
    economy than a fossil fuel economy.
        Senator McSally. Exactly.
        Mr. Simmons. And so, as we think about the future, it is
    very important that we're thinking about where those minerals
    come from. The United States is going to produce those
    minerals, that we are going to produce them at the highest
    environmental standards, the highest labor standards in the
    world. So I think that is, first of all, that is an important
    issue.
        Second, when we have those, when we have these critical
    minerals, in many cases, in the United States, it is very
    helpful that we can do a good job recycling them.
        With solar panels, in the very beginning they weren't
    necessarily manufactured with recycling in mind. Now that is a
    consideration that we're thinking about. That is an area of,
    that our office is considering how do we take these solar
    panels and make them more inherently recyclable? When wind,
    when solar was a very small part of the electricity system, it
    didn't matter so much. But it is not that way now and we need
    to think about, like, the end of life considerations from the
    very beginning because that is the way to make them inherently
    recyclable as opposed to, you know, running into some real
    serious recycling challenges.
        Senator McSally. Great. Thank you, I appreciate it. My time
    is up.
        Senator Cassidy. I think we have come to the end----
        Senator Heinrich. Can I----
        Senator Cassidy. Sure.
        Senator Heinrich. So I will put one more thing on your
    radar screen. Since we were talking about power-to-gas, one of
    the reasons why I have an interest in that is because of the
    broad challenges that we see in the industrial heat sector.
        If you look at electric generation, I think the end of the
    story is practically written. We know where we are headed. We
    know how it is going to decarbonize over time. We can see our
    way to maybe 80 percent clean energy on the grid, and by the
    time we get there we will be able to see, I believe, some of
    the solutions for seasonal storage that get us to 100 percent.
        We don't have those same solutions yet, and certainly not
    the cost curve, which you referenced, when it comes to the
    industrial heat sector. You can make hydrogen with a nuclear
    power plant but a nuclear power plant can't create the heat
    that you need for some of these processes.
        So if you look at steel, aluminum, ammonia, glass,
    concrete, all of the industrial heat processes, we are talking
    about roughly ten percent, I think, of worldwide emissions. And
    most of that is not necessarily process emissions as opposed to
    generation emissions.
        What we are doing at a holistic level is to look across the
    board at that and say, here is one of the toughest places for
    us to decarbonize, and we need a solution set that either isn't
    available today or isn't cheap enough today, and how do we work
    with industry to maybe create a center of excellence somewhere
    in the DOE network and work with industry to bring those
    emissions down?
        Mr. Simmons. So the issue of process heating is one that
    our Advanced Manufacturing Office is spending a lot of time
    thinking about, about what that, for exactly the challenges
    that you laid out, it is a huge consumer of energy. Ways to
    make that more efficient results in, you know, U.S. businesses
    being more, U.S. manufacturing being more competitive in a
    global economy.
        Again, it's not obvious what a lot of those solutions are,
    but it is an area that we are actively thinking about whether
    it is things such as microwaves, for example, in certain
    applications, for heating or drying technologies. But we
    recognize the challenge.
        Senator Heinrich. It sounds like we have a lot of work to
    do.
        Mr. Simmons. We definitely have a lot of work to do.
        Senator Cassidy. Thank you, Mr. Simmons.
        Questions for the record are due by close of business
    today.
        Again, I thank you for your presence and thank my
    colleagues for their presence.
        This concludes the hearing.
        [Whereupon, at 10:57 a.m. the hearing was adjourned.]

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