[Senate Hearing 116-102]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 116-102
HEARING ON THE NOMINATION OF SEAN O'DONNELL TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF
THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
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HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
OCTOBER 30, 2019
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
38-653 PDF WASHINGTON : 2020
COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming, Chairman
JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware,
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia Ranking Member
KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland
MIKE BRAUN, Indiana BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon
JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, New York
ROGER WICKER, Mississippi CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
RICHARD SHELBY, Alabama EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
JONI ERNST, Iowa TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
Richard M. Russell, Majority Staff Director
Mary Frances Repko, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
OCTOBER 30, 2019
OPENING STATEMENTS
Barrasso, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Wyoming...... 1
Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware.. 2
WITNESS
O'Donnell, Sean, nominated to be Inspector General, U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency................................ 5
Prepared statement........................................... 8
Responses to additional questions from:
Senator Carper........................................... 12
Senator Booker........................................... 15
Senator Markey........................................... 18
HEARING ON THE NOMINATION OF SEAN O'DONNELL TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF
THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
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WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2019
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Environment and Public Works,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m. in
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John Barrasso
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Barrasso, Carper, Capito, Braun, Rounds,
Sullivan, Ernst, Cardin, Whitehouse, Gillibrand, Markey,
Duckworth, and Van Hollen.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING
Senator Barrasso. Good morning. I call this hearing to
order.
Today, we are going to consider the nomination of Sean
O'Donnell to be Inspector General of the Environmental
Protection Agency. Mr. O'Donnell is a very well qualified
individual and will bring a wealth of experience and expertise
to this critically important position. I applaud President
Trump's nomination of such an experienced and dedicated public
servant.
The Office of the Inspector General is an independent
office within the EPA. It is charged with conducting
independent audits, evaluations, and investigations of agency
programs and of operations. It is tasked with preventing and
detecting fraud, waste, abuse, mismanagement, and misconduct,
relating to the EPA and the U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard
Investigation Board. It makes evidence based recommendations to
promote efficiency and effectiveness in agency programs and
operations.
Twice a year, the Office of the Inspector General provides
a report to Congress profiling its accomplishments. The report
identifies significant deficiencies at the agency and proposes
corrective actions.
Although a part of the EPA, Congress provides the Office of
Inspector General with funding separate from the agency to
ensure its independence. The Office of Inspector General's work
assists Congress and the public in holding the agency
accountable.
The EPA's Office of Inspector General currently lacks
Senate confirmed leadership. Earlier this month, Arthur Elkins,
who has served as Inspector General since 2010, retired. Mr.
O'Donnell has the right experience to replace him.
For nearly 20 years, Mr. O'Donnell has devoted his career
to public service. Since 2005, he has served as a trial
attorney for the U.S. Department of Justice. He currently works
in the Criminal Division Bank Integrity Unit. Previously, he
worked for the Civil Fraud Section and the Federal Programs
Branch of the Civil Division. He also was a part of the Civil
Rights Division's Voting Section.
He has handled criminal and civil matters, such as those
relating to financial and Government program fraud and public
corruption. Mr. O'Donnell is familiar with the use of
sophisticated investigative and forensic tools. He has managed
large investment teams of attorneys, of analysts, and of
investigators. And he has worked with agents and auditors from
half a dozen offices of inspectors general.
He has received numerous honors and awards for his work at
the Department of Justice. In 2017, he received the Attorney
General's award for distinguished service, the second highest
honor awarded by that department. That year, he also received
the Executive Office for United States Attorneys Director's
Award for superior performance by a--I guess a team of
litigators, but there is a different word for it. Yes, a team
of litigators. During the Obama administration, he received the
Civil Division's Special Achievement Award and numerous annual
quality service awards.
Mr. O'Donnell's commitment to public service extends to his
personal life. From 2011 to 2014, he was the Chair of the
Ethics Commission for the City of College Park, Maryland. The
Commission is charged with encouraging high ethical standards
of conduct by city officials and employees.
Kyle Cohen, who is the United States Assistant Attorney for
the Middle District of Florida, worked with Mr. O'Donnell when
he was an attorney with the Department of Justice's Civil Fraud
Division. He wrote in support of this nomination. He said,
``Due to his relentless commitment in rooting out fraud, waste,
and abuse of taxpayer dollars, Sean is an ideal candidate for
an Inspector General's position.''
Mr. O'Donnell's background and experience make him an ideal
candidate to serve as the Environmental Protection Agency's
Inspector General, and I look forward to hearing Mr.
O'Donnell's testimony today and to moving his nomination
expeditiously through the confirmation process.
I would now turn to Ranking Member Carper for his
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE
Senator Carper. Thanks so much, Mr. Chairman, and thanks
for holding today's hearing on our nominee, Sean O'Donnell.
My only regret, Mr. O'Donnell, in your nomination is that
it did not come about a year sooner. My staff is going to give
me the name of the Acting, who has just retired, I think the
Chair just mentioned, Arthur Elkins, who was our Acting IG for
a while. And we appreciate his service.
We are glad that you have been nominated by the
Administration. I want to thank your family, your wife, four
children. Is that all the children you have, just four? OK.
[Laughter.]
Senator Barrasso. Thirteen, 11, 9, and 7.
Senator Carper. That is every 2 years, then.
Senator Barrasso. Pretty close.
Senator Carper. That is pretty good. And is that a sister-
in-law, over your right shoulder? Is that your sister-in-law?
We are all glad that you are here. Thank you to your wife and
children for sharing you with our country and your willingness
to share--and you specifically--with the Environmental
Protection Agency in the oversight role that, if confirmed, you
will play.
The mission of the EPA is to protect human health and our
environment. Our country relies on EPA to safeguard communities
from hazardous waste, from toxic chemicals, from greenhouse gas
emissions, and other harmful air and water pollutants. EPA's
dedicated career staff works every day to ensure that we have
clean air, safe drinking water, and a healthy environment.
However, in order for EPA to protect all of us in this
country, the agency itself must be protected from the kinds of
misconduct that can impair its important mission. This
responsibility falls in no small part to the EPA's Inspector
General.
As EPA's principal oversight official, the IG is charged
with detecting and preventing fraud, preventing waste, abuse,
mismanagement, and misconduct across EPA and the U.S. Chemical
Safety and Hazard Investigation Board. The Inspector General is
a watchdog for the American people and provides an independent
voice of integrity.
Unfortunately, as we know, the EPA has been without a
confirmed Inspector General for more than a year, way too long.
So needless to say, we are pleased to be able to consider your
nomination today, Mr. O'Donnell.
If confirmed, you will have a big job ahead of you. We want
to be supportive.
The Office of Inspector General has completed some valuable
audits of EPA's programs and activities in recent days. Just
last month, the IG released a report evaluating EPA's efforts
to ensure that public drinking water systems notified the
public when unsafe levels of water contamination are detected,
as required by the Safe Drinking Water Act. As a result of that
audit and evaluations, EPA has agreed to undertake recommended
improvements to bolster the systems that protect Americans'
drinking water.
Under the Trump administration, however, we have seen far
too many breaches of ethics and abuses of authority among the
political leaders at EPA. I have read too many stories, too
many headlines, too many investigations that more than,
frankly, I want to count. Many ethics violations committed by
former Administrator Scott Pruitt have been well documented,
but those violations bear repeating today, and I will do so
briefly.
These include Mr. Pruitt's acceptance of below market
rental housing from the wife of a lobbyist with business before
the EPA, Mr. Pruitt's use of his position to try to acquire a
Chick-Fil-A franchise and other employment opportunities for
his wife, and Mr. Pruitt's practice of using a security detail
to run personal errands.
More recently, former Assistant Administrator Bill Wehrum
had his deputy appear to have helped reverse EPA's position in
a power plant enforcement case involving their former industry
clients. Senator Whitehouse, House Energy and Commerce Chairman
Pallone, and I referred this matter to the Office of Inspector
General in February of this year. In May and July of this year,
Senator Whitehouse and I provided additional referrals after we
uncovered more evidence.
In addition to detecting and preventing waste and fraud
within the EPA's programs, it is critical that one of your
highest priorities as EPA IG will be to ensure that these kinds
of flagrant violations of public trust are documented and that
those responsible for the violations are held accountable, even
when they leave the agency.
Regrettably, over the past 2 years, many of my colleagues
on this Committee and I have been frustrated by what seems to
be the Office of Inspector General's reluctance or even refusal
to investigate ethics breaches and abuses of powers by EPA
political leadership. In particular, last year, after Mr.
Pruitt resigned, I was very discouraged to learn that the
Office of Inspector General halted multiple ongoing
investigations into allegations of abuse, and decided their
efforts were inconclusive because they could not interview Mr.
Pruitt. To me, that sends the wrong signal to the agency and to
our country that public servants at the highest levels can
avoid accountability for their misconduct simply by leaving the
job before an investigation is completed.
The whole truth really does matter. The next Inspector
General, which I hope will be you, must do all that you can do
to ensure that the whole truth is revealed, that those
responsible for misconduct will face appropriate consequences
for their actions.
It is also important for the next Inspector General to
understand that part of the job is to protect the integrity of
internal oversight functions within EPA. Across the agency,
there are offices with responsibility to support and enforce
the agency's ethics and other rules. However, these offices
cannot fulfill their oversight responsibilities when the
subjects of that oversight are their bosses who wield power
over their positions. When this happens, the Office of
Inspector General is responsible for ensuring that oversight is
indeed conducted.
So, Mr. O'Donnell, we look forward to hearing your views on
these matters. Your experience at the Department of Justice
indicates that you have the ability to doggedly pursue
financial crimes and public corruption investigations. We hope
you are ready to use those skills to investigate corruption at
EPA and pursue investigations wherever the facts may lead.
Thank you. Good luck.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Carper.
Senator Cardin.
Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for
giving me the opportunity to introduce to the Committee Sean
O'Donnell.
Thank you, Chairman Barrasso and Ranking Member Carper.
Sean O'Donnell is a resident of College Park, Maryland.
That is where the University of Maryland's principal campus is
located. I don't know that you get too many quiet nights, but
it is nice to have a Marylander who is here.
Mr. O'Donnell has served as a civil servant for nearly 20
years, most recently as a trial attorney at the Criminal
Division of the Department of Justice. He has handled some of
the more challenging matters under the Department of Justice.
He handled election issues from 2005 through 2008. In 2013, he
handled the residential mortgage backed security predatory
investigations. So he has widespread experience in regard to
civil matters and commercial and governmental fraud corruption
and national security matters which will stead him well in the
position he has been nominated to.
I want to point out a couple of other things about his
background that really impress me. Because local politics can
be extremely challenging. Mr. O'Donnell served as chairman and
commissioner on the City of College Park's Ethics Commission,
and also on the City of College Park's Redistricting
Commission. Why anybody would want to serve on that, I don't
know. But he has taken on some very challenging issues in his
career. He is well qualified, as both the Chairman and Ranking
Member have pointed out.
It is really important that we have a confirmed,
experienced, independent Inspector General for the EPA. We
desperately need to have that.
I want to thank Mr. O'Donnell, I want to thank his family,
because the family very much is a part of this, for his
willingness to step forward and serve in this position.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Cardin.
Now I would like to welcome our nominee to the Committee.
Sean O'Donnell, nominee to be the Inspector General for the
Environmental Protection Agency.
I want to remind you that your full written testimony will
be made a part of the record. I look forward to hearing your
testimony.
I don't know if you want to start by introducing your
family to the Committee and then proceeding with your
testimony.
STATEMENT OF SEAN O'DONNELL, NOMINEE TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL,
U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
Mr. O'Donnell. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member Carper,
and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank you for the
opportunity to appear before you today as the nominee for the
Inspector General of the Environmental Protection Agency and
the Chemical Safety Board. It is a profound honor.
I would also like to thank Senator Cardin for his
introduction and his acknowledgement of the many sleepless
nights we have in College Park due to the proximity of the
University of Maryland.
[Laughter.]
Mr. O'Donnell. I am also grateful to the President and to
Administrator Wheeler for the confidence they have shown in me
for this important position. I am also grateful for the time
the members of this Committee and their staff made to meet with
me as part of my nomination.
I would like to thank my family, friends, and colleagues
for the support they have shown. With me today is my wife of
nearly 25 years, Dr. Cynthia Finley. I have known Cynthia since
seventh grade, when we first met in first period English class.
Actually, I think it might have been second period. You remain
the smartest, most wonderful person I know. And you have made
me the luckiest.
Also here with me today are my four children, Brigid,
Fintan, Molly, and Aine. You bring so much joy to my life, and
I am incredibly proud of each of you.
Also joining me is my father, Sean; and his wife, Andrea;
and my sister-in-law, Cheryl. Thank you for coming.
Being here today represents a milestone in a long journey.
I grew up far away from Washington, DC, in the northwestern
part of Washington State. I am the proud grandson, son,
brother, and uncle of four generations of O'Donnells who have
worked at the Port of Seattle. Growing up in a family of
stevedores instilled in me the value of hard work and plain
speaking.
I have always believed that public service is a high
calling. This is why, 15 years ago, I jumped at the opportunity
to work at the U.S. Department of Justice and to represent the
United States of America. During my time in the department, I
have had the privilege to work on some of the most interesting
and complex matters facing our Nation.
But what I have always found most rewarding is seeing how
my cases can make the lives of our fellow Americans better. One
of the first matters I handled at the department was United
States v. Euclid, a Voting Rights Act case. Despite having a
significant African American population, the city of Euclid had
never elected an African American preferred candidate.
My colleagues and I worked tirelessly to vindicate the
voting rights of black voters, developing a compelling case by
following the facts and listening to local voters, candidates,
and government officials.
The results speak for themselves. Since the United States
prevailed, the city has elected a diverse and far more
representative city council. When you see the good that
government can do, it washes away the cynicism that seems so
prevalent nowadays.
I have always strived to lead investigations in a fair,
objective, and thorough manner, going where the facts lead no
matter how uncomfortable the results or how difficult the task.
For example, in 2013, I joined the Residential Mortgage Backed
Security Working Group, which was formed to bring some measure
of justice to those who had participated in one of the biggest
frauds in our history.
To do so, we used creative statutory and investigative
tools to dive deep into highly complex securities. At its
height, our investigative team consisted of approximately 30
attorneys, agents, and analysts from a variety of agencies,
including two inspector general offices.
In less than 2 years, our team reviewed nearly 10 million
documents, analyzed gigabytes of data, and interviewed scores
of individuals. We untangled a mess of deals to uncover a
pattern of making false and misleading statements about the
quality of the mortgage loans underlying the securities. And we
ultimately held that investment bank to account with a multi-
billion dollar fine and a statement of facts that clearly and
plainly set out the basis for that fine.
In my work at the Department of Justice, I often have
occasion to ponder Justice Holmes' words in Rockland Island,
that people must turn square corners when dealing with the
Government. For me, it has come to have two meanings. First, it
means that the Government depends on the integrity and honesty
of those who deal with it. It also means that we in the
Government must be fair and honest when we deal with the
public.
I firmly believe that the best way we instill confidence in
those we have the honor of serving is by conducting our
business with integrity. In my experience, the OIG auditors,
agents, and attorneys I have had the privilege of working with
exemplify this commitment to integrity. To a person, I have
found that they share a passion for fighting waste, fraud,
abuse, and mismanagement. And I have found that they are
equally committed to providing independent and objective
oversight of their departments and agencies.
For this reason, I come before you today seeking your
support to become the Environmental Protection Agency's
Inspector General. The EPA serves a critical role as steward of
our environment. To this end, it has been entrusted with the
most important statutes enacted to improve the quality of our
lives and protect our public health. The result of the EPA's
work is evident in the air we breathe and the water we drink.
Every year, my children and I see the impact of EPA's work in
our own neighborhood, as we fish in the Anacostia River and we
see the water become cleaner and the fish healthier.
It would be an honor to lead the EPA's Office of Inspector
General as it contributes to the agency's important mission. If
confirmed, I will strive to continue the office's work in
eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse. I will also focus the
office's efforts to promote the efficient and effective use of
the authority you have granted the EPA. I will do so while
maintaining a positive relationship with you and the rest of
Congress.
Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I
sincerely appreciate your consideration of my nomination, and I
look forward to answering your questions.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. O'Donnell follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. Thank you so very much. Congratulations
again. Welcome to your family.
Throughout this hearing and with the questions for the
record, the Committee members are going to have an opportunity
to learn more about your commitment to public service for our
great Nation. I would like to ask that throughout this hearing,
you please try to respond to the questions, and then
afterwards, questions for the record which may be posed in
writing after the hearing has ended.
I have to ask the following questions that we ask of all
nominees on behalf of the Committee. Do you agree, if
confirmed, to appear before this Committee or designated
members of this Committee and other appropriate committees of
the Congress and provide information, subject to appropriate
and necessary security protection with respect to your
responsibilities?
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes, Senator.
Senator Barrasso. Do you agree to ensure that testimony,
briefings, documents, and electronic and other forms of
information are provided to this Committee and its staff and
other appropriate committees in a timely manner?
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes.
Senator Barrasso. Do you know of any matters which you may
or may not have disclosed that might place you in any conflict
of interest if you are confirmed?
Mr. O'Donnell. No.
Senator Barrasso. I would like to begin now with my round
of questions.
Under Federal law, the qualifications to be Inspector
General are stated as follows. An Inspector General shall be
appointed solely on the basis of integrity and demonstrated
ability in accounting, auditing, financial analysis, law,
management analysis, public administration, or investigations.
Now, your distinguished record indicates that you meet all
of these requirements. Can you just talk a little bit about
maybe a few real life examples of how you have demonstrated
these qualities?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, two come to mind. First, with AUSA
Cohen, I helped lead an investigation into a number of
servicers of reverse mortgage loans. As you might know, reverse
mortgage loans are an important financial instrument that
allows elderly Americans to access equity in their homes, while
allowing them to stay in place.
Based on complaints from whistleblowers and information we
developed separately, we undertook a thorough investigation
that uncovered a systemic pattern of misrepresentations made to
FHA in the course of the servicing of those loans, costing the
American taxpayers tens of millions of dollars. We were able
to, in my time, resolve with a number of corporations,
returning $130 million to the Treasury. But what I find is more
important is that we ended up making significant impact on the
industry. What we were told is that servicers were being more
mindful of the obligations that they had in servicing these
loans.
The other one, Senator, is one that is very recent. I
helped lead an investigation of allegations of fraud involving
$2 billion of loans to the Republic of Mozambique. The Republic
of Mozambique is one of the ten poorest countries in the world.
It had come to the international capital markets seeking
capital for what appeared to be maritime related projects.
Using a number of creative investigative tools, and really
just sort of a dogged pursuit of truth, what we uncovered is
alleged in an indictment that we unsealed in January, which
alleges that a UAE based maritime company corrupted Mozambiquan
officials with bribes of over $100 million in order to get
business in the Republic of Mozambique. They did so by
inflating the prices of the vessels, as was alleged in the
indictment. But what we also discovered, again as alleged in
the indictment, is that bankers of Credit Suisse were taking
bribes, nearly $50 million in bribes.
The result is, I think, clear, the Republic of Mozambique
thus far has defaulted on over $700 million in loans. The
International Monetary Fund has suspended lending. The Republic
of Mozambique has suffered the two terrible storms. And the
harm that they have suffered as a result of this fraud is
patent.
I can say thus far, the three bankers have plead guilty in
the United States District Court in the Eastern District of New
York. My colleagues up in Brooklyn are trying presently one of
the individuals with the UAE based shipbuilder, unfortunately--
or fortunately, because I am here--I could not join them, but I
wish them the best of luck.
Senator Barrasso. It is interesting. You have had a long
and distinguished career in public service, no question about
it. I was going to ask you the main reasons why you want to go
and be the Inspector General at EPA, and maybe think about what
the biggest challenges may be at that agency, quite different
than some of the things you have really been successful at.
Mr. O'Donnell. I think what I have seen in my experience
with the IG is across the board a real commitment to fighting
waste, fraud, and abuse, and mismanagement, and the willingness
to use tools creatively, whether forensic, statutory,
investigative, to help not just fight waste, fraud, and abuse,
but help better government.
I think that the issues facing all IGs include the
efficient use of resources and targeting priority issues,
working with the agency in a constructive manner to help that
agency, if you will, sharpen its mission. And of course, with
respect to the EPA, its important mission with respect to the
environment and public health.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. Let me start off by saying I am pleased to
hear you mention, not once, but several times, fighting waste,
fraud, and abuse. We have just learned that the budget deficit
for the fiscal year which concluded--oh, gosh, just days ago--
was about $850 billion. We are told that the budget deficit for
the new fiscal year is expected to reach $1 trillion, saddling
your children, my children, grandchildren, with a lifetime of
debt.
One of the things that we seek to do on this Committee and
the other committee I serve on, Homeland Security and
Governmental Affairs, we work with GAO, the Government
Accountability Agency, we work with all the Inspectors General
to try to figure out how to govern this country in ways that
are more cost effective and fair. So we welcome your passion
for doing that, and believe me, the passion is felt on this
side of the dais as well.
We know from EPA's Inspector General's semi-annual report
that former Administrator Scott Pruitt was under IG
investigation due to multiple allegations of misconduct.
However, when Mr. Pruitt resigned, the IG investigations into
his misconduct were declared inconclusive because he left the
agency before investigators could interview him. And they
closed most of the cases.
In my view, this sends the message that our Nation's most
senior political officials can avoid accountability just by
quitting before the IG has finished its work. Mr. O'Donnell,
will you just briefly tell us how you would manage an
investigation where the high level appointee who is the subject
of the investigation leaves the agency before they can be
interviewed? Would you give us your assurance that you will
follow through on such investigations and reach the best
conclusion you can, using other evidence available to you,
regardless of the subject's attempts to avoid interviews?
Mr. O'Donnell. Absolutely, Senator. I share your
frustration. I think we have all seen that across the board,
where it seems as if individuals can avoid scrutiny by leaving.
I think one of the hallmarks of my career has been a
stubborn refusal to stop investigating, even when things get
hard. I firmly intend to continue that, using the tools
available to the Inspector General's office.
Senator Carper. Thank you. Second question. There are
offices within EPA, as you know, that are supposed to do
oversight of the agency's ethics and other rules. However, when
subjects of this kind of agency oversight are political
appointees who oversee the offices that conduct the oversight,
the system sometimes breaks down.
For example, almost 8 months ago, along with Senators
Whitehouse and Markey and Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson,
I asked EPA's scientific integrity official to investigate
whether EPA's political officials had violated EPA's scientific
integrity policy when they suppressed the release of an EPA
study that says formaldehyde causes leukemia.
I would ask, Mr. Chairman, unanimous consent to place into
the record a copy of that letter at this time.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
[The referenced information follows:]
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Senator Carper. Thank you.
We have not received an answer yet. And we don't know why.
But it could be because the EPA's scientific integrity official
is being told by the very same public officials that she is not
allowed to investigate what they have asked her to investigate.
Would you assure us that as Inspector General, you will
take up the appropriate oversight activities that are normally
tasked to other EPA offices when those offices do not have the
independence necessary to fulfill their responsibilities?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, in the situation that you
described, I think it is entirely appropriate for the Inspector
General to investigate mismanagement and abuse of authority,
such as if an individual tasked with independent oversight is
being ordered in some form or fashion to discontinue that. That
would certainly be something I would be interested in looking
at. If there are specific situations such as the one you
mentioned, Senator, if confirmed, I am happy to go back to the
career staff and discuss that with them and then meet with you
and your staff again.
Senator Carper. Thanks so much. And my third question is,
it will be, I think a year tomorrow, that Senator Udall and I
wrote to the Acting Inspector General to request that he
initiate an audit into the EPA's proposal to repeal air
emission standards for polluting glider trucks. We still have
not seen the results of that audit. Perhaps because the White
House Office of Management and Budget has been refusing to
respond to the Acting Inspector General's request for
information, in violation of the Inspector General Act of 1978.
The Acting Inspector General informed Congress of the OMB's
refusal to cooperate in April of this year, as he was also
required to do.
And Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask unanimous consent to
put into the record a copy of that letter at this time, please.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
[The referenced information follows:]
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Senator Carper. I would ask my question of Mr. O'Donnell,
would you commit to us that you will promptly inform this
Committee any time that political appointees at the EPA or the
Chemical Safety Board or any other part of the Executive Office
of the President that you are aware of refuse to provide you
information or attempts to stonewall an audit or investigation?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I believe not only is the Inspector
General obligated to do it, but I think that as provided
independent oversight, I would feel an obligation to do exactly
that.
Senator Carper. Thank you so much.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Carper.
Senator Braun.
Senator Braun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We discussed this in my office. In the short time I have
been here--for me it always comes back to how you pay for
things in a place like this. We have now gotten used to
trillion dollar deficits; we shrug it off. I am on the Budget
Committee, and I know that is soon going to approach $1.5
trillion 5, 6 years down the road. So in any agency, whatever
one can do to try to improve that, it is important.
For me, in your role, I would like your opinion on where
would a few places be that, from your depth of experience and
what you see looming in terms of your responsibilities, a
couple, three things where you would put time and effort.
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I have seen that the office
recently concluded a False Claims Act settlement, working
collaboratively with other agencies on a grant matter. Just
given my experience with the False Claims Act, Senator, I can
tell you that that is exactly the sort of thing that I think is
an important tool in fighting waste, fraud, and abuse, really
returning money that was improperly given, returning that money
to the taxpayers.
So I would see going forward the continued collaboration
with other agencies, including the Department of Justice, and
using tools like the False Claims Act, to make sure that the
EPA is not defrauded with respect to grants or contracts. I
think that is an important area of the ability to fight waste,
fraud, and abuse.
And then of course, Senator, with respect to the audits,
one focus of audits is always, I think, can be the efficient
use of taxpayer dollars by the offices and entities in the EPA.
Senator Braun. Thank you. I would be derelict if I didn't
ask you about what has beset my constituents more than any
other aspect of EPA rules and regs, would be Waters of the U.S.
As I saw that evolve, and I am one that is a staunch
conservationist, and I believe--I always cite the fact that I
remember so vividly as a teenager when the Cuyahoga River
caught on fire. So we have really come so far in a short period
of time.
When I was home for a recess visit, I had, I think, three
small farmers in one small restaurant corner me after I was
done eating, I knew the three of them, and telling me that
they, in just doing basic, routine ditch maintenance, and
ditches that generally have no water in them, other than a few
months out of the years, and we are in a rainy part of the
country. Waters of the U.S. looks to me like it is a confluence
of the Army Corps of Engineers, the EPA, and then the in-State
enforcement agencies. Sadly, in this case, coming from a place
like Indiana, which is normally pretty sane in all the things
that it does, it would have been the Department of Natural
Resources and the Indiana Department of Environmental
Management that was out of kilter with, really, I think, what
they were supposed to be doing.
Do you feel it is within your purview being able to not
only interface with the Army Corps of Engineers, but especially
the agencies that are generally responsible for implementing?
And I know we have gone through a rule change, and many of my
constituents and farmer friends are anxious to see that
actually improve.
What would your opinion be in terms of your role to
interface with some of the State agencies, that is where you
really feel the impact in some cases of overreaching
regulations here?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, in my previous work, both on
residential mortgage backed securities investigations and going
into the False Claims Act work generally, I always felt we were
our most effective when we were working with our State
partners. With the RMBS investigations I worked with the State
of California, the State of New York, the State of Maryland,
and I believe the State of Illinois. And then that
collaborative effort really allowed us to, I think, make a
better case because we were not just responsive to the concerns
inside the beltway, but concerns of the States.
So I think to the extent that it is available to the IG's
Office of the EPA, I think it would be extremely useful.
Senator Braun. When you hit the ground running, I would
appreciate it if you might keep in mind that particular issue
in Indiana, and maybe check into it and get back with me to see
what you think.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you, Senator, yes.
Senator Braun. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Braun.
Senator Duckworth.
Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just want to start by thanking Mr. O'Donnell's family for
your support of his long tenure as a civil servant. Some serve
this country in uniform by picking up a rifle, others serve by
being a public servant, and that is just as honorable and just
as giving. So thank you for supporting him in his work. He does
very important work, as you can see by having all of us here
today.
Welcome, Mr. O'Donnell.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Duckworth. Thank you for meeting with me yesterday.
I was reassured to hear your thoughts on the importance of an
independent Inspector General and whistleblower protections.
In July of this past year, July 11th, the Assistant
Administrator for Enforcement and Compliance published a memo
indicating a new approach to compliance, which would end a
longstanding practice at the EPA of inspections that are
unannounced. I am concerned that this new, no surprise policy
will hinder EPA's ability to protect public health.
Mr. O'Donnell, if confirmed to be EPA's Inspector General,
would you agree with this new approach to stop all unannounced
activities of the EPA OIG personnel? In other words, would you
adopt a no surprise policy to guide OIG investigations?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I am not privy to what was the
reason for that decision. I would be interested, if confirmed,
to meet with staff and understand why it is they thought it
important to have a no surprise audit.
Senator Duckworth. I think it is an agency-wide memo. I am
asking, would you continue it, would you comply with that for
the OIG office in terms of this policy of no surprise
inspections?
Mr. O'Donnell. I think as an independent office, it would
be inappropriate for the EPA to dictate to the Office of
Inspector General how they would conduct their audits. So with
respect to any limitation on the ability of the IG to conduct
those audits, I think again, I would confer and understand the
scope of this new policy of which you speak. But it seems to me
to be counterproductive to the role of the Office of Inspector
General.
Senator Duckworth. Thank you. I find your answer
reassuring.
If confirmed, would you commit to investigate what
motivated this change in policy, and whether EPA conducted a
rigorous risk analysis of this no surprise policy? And finally,
whether EPA developed this policy in consultation or
partnership with regulated entities.
Mr. O'Donnell. Again, Senator, I am not privy to the
decisionmaking or the applicability of that rule. But what I
will most certainly pledge is, if confirmed, to get better
understanding of this rule, its applicability, and then
determine whether it is appropriate to do an audit to determine
if it is in fact an effective use of the audit ability of the
agency.
Senator Duckworth. Will you follow up with my office?
Mr. O'Donnell. Absolutely.
Senator Duckworth. Thank you.
Laws aren't worth the paper they are written on if agencies
fail to enforce them. Region V, which I am proud to say is
based in my home State of Illinois, is historically one that
has led the Nation in enforcement. Enforcement begins with
inspections. That is why I strongly support the EPA OIG's
ongoing investigation into the alarming decline in EPA
enforcement actions. In addition to enforcement, I am also
concerned that the rate of EPA inspections is also dropping.
If confirmed to be EPA's Inspector General, will you commit
to expanding the ongoing enforcement investigation to include
why inspections have also dropped nationwide under the Trump
administration?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I am pleased to hear that this has
already started. If confirmed, I will pledge to meet with those
auditors and understand the scope of their audit and I think if
appropriate, most certainly to expand it.
Senator Duckworth. Thank you. During our meeting yesterday,
we discussed an issue facing an environmental justice community
in Sauget, Illinois. My constituents are exposed to harmful
emissions from a trash incinerator that accepts wastes such as
propellants and explosives, reactive metals and poisonous
materials for disposal. That is why the EPA, under the prior
Administration, put in place rigorous requirements for
monitoring and controlling heavy metal emissions from this
plant.
The current Administration took an opposite approach,
providing the polluters with access to the highest levels of
leadership at EPA prior to dramatically weakening pollution
control requirements on the plant. Unfortunately, this scenario
is not an isolated incident, and my constituents in Illinois
fear that similar political interference is harming the
bipartisan Renewable Fuels Standard program, and letting plants
that emit ethylene oxide off the hook.
If confirmed, will you commit to investigate this plant
specifically, and this culture of political interference
generally at EPA?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I understand that you sent a letter
on this, I think, and I have reviewed it last night. What I
pledge, Senator, is to, if confirmed, go to my colleagues at
the Office of Inspector General, understand our position, and
then get back to you as soon as possible.
Senator Duckworth. Thank you for your answers. I look
forward to working with you upon your confirmation.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you, Senator. Me, too.
Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Duckworth.
Senator Sullivan.
Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. O'Donnell, thank you for your service and for that of
your family. I always tell my wife and kids that it is a team
effort, as Senator Duckworth was mentioning. Your kids are also
really well behaved in this hearing. So that is also great.
Thank you to the family for their willingness to let their dad
do these important but sometimes time consuming and difficult
jobs.
I am looking forward to supporting your confirmation. I
think you have a really strong background for this important
position. It is a big mission, the OIG. I am just looking at
it.
One of the things that it focuses on is misconduct relating
to the EPA. I want to tell you that during the 8 years of the
Obama administration, my State lost confidence in the EPA in a
huge way. A lot of it dealt with misconduct that really never
was looked into. Some of it is going to be bygone; the former
Administrator, Gina McCarthy, came up to Alaska, essentially
consulted my constituents in the national media interview in a
very demeaning, arrogant way, literally forgot that she
actually represents the people and is supposed to serve the
people.
Senator Braun talked about the WOTUS rule. I think as
Inspector General--you are a good lawyer. When 31 States,
Democrat led States, Republican led States, are suing the EPA,
it is kind of time for a pause, right?
But let me talk about a couple other ones during that era
of lawlessness at the EPA. There was a Supreme Court case
called EPA v. Michigan. Gina McCarthy was actually on the Bill
Maher show. She was talking about it, and she said, oh, we
think we are going to win. That is fine. We have good lawyers.
They didn't win, they lost six to three.
But then she said this, ``Even if we don't win, it was 3
years ago that we implemented this rule,'' and I am quoting
her. ``Most of the companies and other people subject to this
rule are already in compliance, have made investments, and they
are going to have to catch up. So we are still going to get at
this issue of toxic pollution from these facilities.''
Wow. You are a lawyer. Do you think that that kind of
statement on national TV is the EPA showing the respect for the
rule of law?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I don't have HBO, so I have not
seen that.
Senator Sullivan. But I am quoting from the Administrator.
I am sorry, I don't watch the show either, but it was her on
the show essentially saying, I don't care what the Supreme
Court said, because these suckers that were already making
investments, are going to have to pay up anyway.
What do you think of that statement? You are an attorney.
You are going to be the OIG. Is that an appropriate statement
for the Administrator of the EPA to say on national TV? And
does it show respect for rule of law? It is a pretty easy
question.
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes, Senator, what I would say is, and this
is something we exercise at the Department of Justice all the
time, is that the Department of Justice--I as a criminal
prosecutor have tremendous power. I can limit someone's
liberty, at least for a short time.
Senator Sullivan. Correct.
Mr. O'Donnell. But I need to exercise that authority----
Senator Sullivan. What signal does it send to Americans,
the head of an agency is really saying, I don't care what the
Supreme Court--but even if we don't win, it was 3 years ago,
most of them are already in compliance, and investments have
been made.
Tell me what you think about that. It is actually an
important question. Remember, your job is part of misconduct.
Is that an appropriate statement by the head of the EPA?
Mr. O'Donnell. Again, I didn't see the exact context, so I
hate to comment, rush to judgment, and give you what I think is
called nowadays a hot take. But I do believe that we should be
judicious in our words and in our use of authority, because it
is even the perception of a lack of integrity that harms the
exercise----
Senator Sullivan. Maybe we can follow up in a--take a look
at it, and I would like your views for the record on that.
Let me ask one final question. So in 2013, in a part of my
State called Chicken, Alaska, we had placer miners who were out
mining legally. And the EPA came to enforce what they believed
was a Clean Water Act violation. They showed up in SWAT gear,
assault rifles, body armor, ATVs. No notice to local law
enforcement. And they scared some people in my State quite a
lot. It looked like a small invasion. No violations were ever
found, by the way.
This could have been a bad situation. A lot of Alaskans
like to exercise their Second Amendment rights, when people
show up on their property with assault rifles and body armor.
I have legislation that would disarm the EPA and require
the EPA to give notice to local law enforcement when they are
going to do these kinds of enforcement actions, essentially a
military enforcement action.
If confirmed, will you sit down with me and take a look at
this action, which I am not sure the OIG ever took a look at?
But it is something--granted, it happened a while ago. But we
don't want that kind of thing to happen again. And can I get
your commitment to take a look at that situation that occurred
in my State that was very disturbing and was not supported by
the people of Alaska?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, if confirmed, I absolutely will be
happy to meet with you and learn more about this situation and
whether it is an appropriate area for the IG to investigate.
Senator Sullivan. And what we can learn from it in terms of
the EPA going forward.
Mr. O'Donnell. Absolutely.
Senator Sullivan. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thanks, Senator Sullivan.
Senator Cardin.
Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Once again, welcome.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you.
Senator Cardin. Thank you for your willingness to take on
this responsibility. As many of us have said, we really do want
to have an independent Inspector General that will be
supported. It is frustrating that when we look at some of the
activities that have taken place within EPA, and the actions of
the Inspector General, we need more transparency, we need more
enforcement, we need more ability for us to work in closer
concert.
Let me just give you one example. The two for one executive
order that was issued, the Inspector General found that in
fact, that order was not as transparent as it should be, was
not being implemented the way it should have been, made certain
recommendations. As I understand, those recommendations are
still unresolved.
So I guess my first question to you, it is one thing to
find areas that need to be improved. But what do you do if the
agency doesn't respond? How do you enforce your
recommendations? What steps would you take to make sure that
your recommendations are not only adhered to, but if they are
not, that there is a process which you can carry out your
responsibilities to inform, particularly Congress?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I see every IG office as having
effectively three customers. The first is the head of the
agency. Really, these audits can inure to the benefit of those
heads of the agencies, if they are willing to accept and listen
to the Inspector General.
Another important customer are the American taxpayers and
the public. The publishing of audits, I think, has a tremendous
effect on the agencies. I agree with you, transparency is
important. In everything I do, I believe that we should be as
transparent as possible. Because as I have said before, when we
are not, even if what we are doing is law abiding, people will
assume the worst, and that undermines at least the perception
of integrity at the agency.
And then the third customer, Senator, of course, is
Congress. I think that the IG Act provides specific remedies,
if you will, for reporting these instances, these failures to
act on recommendations, whether it is semi-annual reports or
audits, to Congress. I think that is probably one of the most
important avenues available to the IG's office.
Senator Cardin. You mentioned the three--the agency,
hopefully, you have a working relationship so they understand
the concerns and they implement. If they don't, the
transparency with the public operates as a check and balance,
and the formal notification of Congress is critically
important.
I might point out, sometimes it gets lost in the process,
and that there needs to be an aggressiveness in the IG's office
to make sure that the underlying reasons for the report are
understood and accountability is there. So it sometimes takes
more than just the legal requirements that you have by statute,
but there is a mission that you have to make sure that we have
that independence and that it is understood when there are a
lot of conflicting issues within the agency and public
attention and Congress.
So I just urge you to recognize that you have friends here
on Capitol Hill, you have friends in the advocacy community.
You don't want to be tied up in the politics of what we are
doing here. But you are a factual determinant, and you want to
make sure that that information gets the type of attention that
it needs. That is going to require some courage and some
innovation on your part to make sure in this environment that
information can get out to the public and to the Congress. But
first, the agency. And hopefully the agency--there are a lot of
good professionals that want to do the right thing, and it is
carried out in that regard.
So I wish you well. I thank you again for your willingness
to serve.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Cardin.
Senator Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. Thank you, Chairman.
Mr. O'Donnell, welcome.
Among the responsibilities of an Inspector General are to
investigate, protect against, simple defalcations, people
taking stuff home that doesn't belong to them, you will have no
hesitancy pursuing those sorts of matters?
Mr. O'Donnell. No, Senator.
Senator Whitehouse. Another issue for Inspectors General is
to review the administration or maladministration of programs
and of grants. Will you have any hesitancy in doing your duty
with respect to those types of concerns as Inspector General?
Mr. O'Donnell. No, Senator.
Senator Whitehouse. Another concern is the, while you are
not a judge reviewing an individual rulemaking, say, if there
were systematic or regular Administrative Procedures Act
violations that affected the integrity of the agency, would you
have any hesitancy of exerting your Inspector General
responsibilities to address those sorts of problems?
Mr. O'Donnell. No, I think that would be appropriate,
Senator.
Senator Whitehouse. And because it is EPA, and because
there are very, very big polluting interests who are constantly
engaged with that agency, it is possible that you might embark
on inquiries that create consternation among very big
interests. Would you have any hesitancy in pursuing your duty
against the wishes or the pressure of very big outside
interests?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I have been doing that with respect
to international financial institutions for many years. I don't
think I have any hesitation with any other.
Senator Whitehouse. Short answer is no?
Mr. O'Donnell. No.
Senator Whitehouse. Great. Will you remain a member of the
Federalist Society in your Inspector General position, and if
so, will you give the Federalist Society any special
consideration should it take views on issues that are before
you?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I am not a member of the Federalist
Society. But I wouldn't give anyone any special consideration.
I think it is important that all opinions be taken on their
face, based on their validity.
Senator Whitehouse. And you serve now in the Department of
Justice, which is a place I also had the great honor to serve.
In the Department of Justice, there is an Office of
Professional Responsibility that is separate from the Inspector
General that oversees the conduct or misconduct, as lawyers of
lawyers in the Department of Justice. What is your role at EPA
with respect to misconduct by lawyers in the EPA office, given
that there is no OPR there?
Mr. O'Donnell. I believe that the office will effectively
have something akin to that role of OPR that you speak of at
DOJ.
Senator Whitehouse. The Inspector General office will?
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes.
Senator Whitehouse. So that would be something you would
oversee, and you would have no hesitancy about pursuing
problems with regard to lawyers?
Mr. O'Donnell. Absolutely not. Being members of the bar, I
think we need to be held to a higher standard. So absolutely
not.
Senator Whitehouse. And finally, thank you for your use of
one of my favorite quotations from Justice Oliver Wendell
Holmes, I love the turning square corners analogy.
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes.
Senator Whitehouse. I think it has a lot of bearing, as you
point out, both for how the regulated entities must behave when
they are dealing with the Government, but also to how the
regulator must behave in making sure that they are doing things
right, because they are, at the end of the day, accomplishing a
larger and more important public purpose than just engaging
with a particular industry.
Mr. O'Donnell. Absolutely.
Senator Whitehouse. Thanks.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you.
Senator Whitehouse. Good luck.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse.
Senator Gillibrand.
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to your family who are here supporting you today.
It is a big day to come to DC. You must be very proud of your
dad, and you are very kind to give him the support he needs on
this big day.
Mr. O'Donnell, as you know, the EPA Inspector General acts
as an independent authority for the EPA, charged with
protecting the integrity of the agency by exposing misconduct
and ensuring that the agency and its leaders are following the
law. As such, it is absolutely critical that you personally
uphold the highest levels of integrity and transparency.
If confirmed, will you conduct your investigations without
the influence of political appointees at EPA, the White House,
or any other Federal agency?
Mr. O'Donnell. Absolutely, Senator.
Senator Gillibrand. Do you intend to seek any waivers or
regulatory exemptions to engage in any matters for which you
have a potential conflict of interest as described in your
ethics agreement?
Mr. O'Donnell. No.
Senator Gillibrand. Over the last 2 years, the Office of
Inspector General has been asked to launch several
investigations into EPA's leadership after receiving credible
allegations of ethics violations and abuses of power. However,
it appears that the Inspector General stopped his work on these
investigations once the targets resigned from their positions
and before the investigations could be completed, resulting in
the Inspector General stating that the investigations were
inconclusive.
This practice of abandoning investigations when the target
resigns is troubling. If confirmed, will you commit to pursuing
justice in conducting full investigations to their conclusive
ends?
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes.
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you.
Will you commit to reversing this malpractice of
abandonment and ensure that these investigations are completed,
even after the targets have resigned from their positions, in
order to ensure there is full accountability?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I have every intention of doggedly
pursuing truth regardless of the availability of witnesses.
Senator Gillibrand. And how do you plan to address these
matters, if confirmed?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I think I bring a tremendous amount
of experience in how to conduct investigations, and the Office
of Inspector General has an Office of Investigations. It is one
I will be working with closely, sharing with them my views,
maybe some insight; they are all professionals and know what to
do. I am hoping that maybe they will feel empowered because of
my history of investigations to follow that pattern of dogged
truth seeking.
Senator Gillibrand. Well, I wish you all the best and many
blessings in your new job.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Gillibrand.
Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. Let me just bring up an issue that has sort
of reared its head in the last several days, and see if you
would take a shot at it, please. It one of the issues that many
of us on this Committee care about deeply, and it is reducing
greenhouse gas emissions in general on our planet, but
particularly in the transportation sector, but doing so in a
way that creates economic opportunity and jobs.
Recently, four automakers entered into an industry
agreement with California to reduce their exhaust emissions, as
you may know. Our President was not happy with this deal, and
as soon as he tweeted out his anger, EPA started to send the
State of California aggressive letters threatening them with
loss of highway funding and other air and water violations.
Do you agree that the question of whether the EPA political
leadership followed the President's directions and abused their
powers is something that an IG should at least look at?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I am not privy to that specific
instance. I am not in the EPA yet. But I can say that instances
where statutory or regulatory authority are being abused for
political ends would be something worthy of an Inspector
General's investigation.
Senator Carper. Thank you.
I think you said that your children are ages 7, 9, 11, and
13.
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes, Senator.
Senator Carper. When you think about our environment, what
do you see as maybe the greatest threat to this earth that they
are going to inhabit for the next 80, 90 years?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, I think that those threats include
pollution to water, pollution to the land.
I had an opportunity while in the Civil Fraud section to
meet with our honeybee producers, who are pretty put upon by
Chinese importers who evade our duties. They talked about how,
in China, the land there is so polluted that they have to go to
other countries to grow their food. It is a national security
issue almost for them.
I would be concerned about that here, too, that our water
has become so dirty and our land become so polluted that we can
no longer function as a society on our own.
Senator Carper. Our sons are 29 and 31. One lives in New
York City; the other lives in California, San Francisco. Just
north of San Francisco, they are having wildfires that feature
hurricane force winds.
I used to live in California, not far from there, when I
was a naval flight officer. I don't recall ever witnessing
hurricane force winds or wildfires like this. Do you think
something is going on there?
Mr. O'Donnell. Senator, it is terrifying what is happening
there. I remember, I think we were in Washington State, eastern
Washington 2 years ago and there was a tremendous forest fire
there that had blanketed the sky and made it difficult to
breathe.
Senator Carper. What State do you live in?
Mr. O'Donnell. I live in Maryland now, but I am originally
from Washington State.
Senator Carper. Ever heard of a place called Ellicott City
in Maryland?
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes.
Senator Carper. For your children, there is a term that is
called like a 100-year flood, that means it is a flood that is
severe enough that it occurs about every 100 years, and maybe
another 100 years later you would get another one like that.
There is also a term called a 1,000-year flood, which means
that it is a flood that is so bad, like Noah's Ark, so bad that
it only happens about every thousand years.
Ellicott City, which is not too far from where your family
lives, has experienced two 1,000-year floods in an 18-month
period. Two thousand-year floods in an 18-month period. Do you
think something is going on there?
Mr. O'Donnell. It strikes me as a statistical anomaly,
Senator, and although I am not a scientist, it does certainly
seem like something is happening.
Senator Carper. All right. Let me close with this question.
If you were to go to your--I go to schools all the time,
Senator Barrasso goes to schools all the time, we have
assemblies with kids young and old--not really old, but young
and older. When I go to schools, 7 year olds, 9 year olds
especially, they ask questions and say, what do you do? And I
explain that along with Senator Barrasso and 98 other Senators,
I help make the rules for the country.
And I say, do you have rules in your school, do you have
rules on your bus, do you have rules at home? They say, yes.
And I say, we have rules for our country, we call them laws. I
get to help make them, with 99 other Senators, 435
Representatives, a President and Vice President.
Sometimes they will say, what else do you do? And I will
say, I try to help people. And one of the best ways you can
help somebody is to make sure they have a job.
We don't create jobs here, and I didn't create jobs when I
was Governor. But a lot of jobs were created, and we helped
create a nurturing environment for job creation, so that when
entrepreneurs start a business, they can be successful.
If you are in a class of 7 year olds or 9 year olds and
they ask you, what do you do, if you are confirmed for this
position, how would you describe it to them in words that they
could understand?
Mr. O'Donnell. I would tell them that my job is to help the
EPA make our environment better and protect our public health
by pointing our problems and highlighting solutions.
Senator Carper. Is that it?
Mr. O'Donnell. I could certainly tell them about waste,
fraud, and abuse. But I have coached children that age, and I
can barely have 1 minute of talking to them before they are
throwing dirt at me.
[Laughter.]
Mr. O'Donnell. So I accept that my explanations always must
be very concise.
Senator Carper. All right. Well, thanks very much again. It
was a pleasure meeting your family. I didn't know that was your
dad sitting back there.
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes, I had mentioned my father is a big fan
of Senator Biden's.
Senator Carper. Well, that's great. So are we. When you
think of where your values came from to guide your life, what
are the sources of those values?
Mr. O'Donnell. Obviously, Senator, they come from my faith,
my upbringing. I grew up in a working class family, and learned
the dignity of work. You spoke of jobs and how important jobs
are, the dignity of work.
My mother has passed away, she was very helpful. One of the
most peculiar persons you will ever meet, but one of the most
giving.
Senator Carper. Good. Sounds like a mom I once knew. All
right. Thanks so much.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. Thanks, Senator Carper.
Just following up a little bit with what Senator Sullivan
was talking about, with Gina McCarthy, previous Administrator
of the EPA. Many of us on our side of the aisle felt that she
had abused her power to say the ends justified the means.
Mr. O'Donnell. Yes.
Senator Barrasso. Coming out with a number of regulations
that we felt clearly were illegal. And she was going to depend
upon the inefficiency of the courts, so that people would have
to comply with those regulations until the court finally--well,
3 years later. And then by then, as she would say, the results
were obtained, and I would say the damage was done in terms of
lost jobs and opportunities.
It is a continuing area of concern for people on both sides
of the aisle, when people in power use that to say that
justifies the means of what they have accomplished. So you may
want to visit with Senator Sullivan about that, and realize it
can go both ways.
Mr. O'Donnell. I understand, Senator. And you know, all of
us at the Department of Justice, particularly those who do
white collar prosecutions, are intimately familiar with what
happened with Arthur Andersen, and the consequences that can
happen when we act what could appear to be cavalier. So while I
might seem careful with my words, it is absolutely my
conviction that in the exercise of authority, we need to temper
justice with mercy and appropriate other controls.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you again. Congratulations to
you and to your family. We look forward to your additional
service for our country. Thank you.
Mr. O'Donnell. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Barrasso. Before you leave, I forgot to mention,
there will be additional questions submitted to you. So we ask
that you respond to the questions by 4 p.m., Thursday, November
7th.
I want to thank you, and I have a couple things I am going
to introduce into the record, without objection.
[The referenced information follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. With that, the hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:18 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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