[Senate Hearing 116-111]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                   S. Hrg. 116-111

                   EXAMINING SBA'S OFFICE OF DISASTER
                 ASSISTANCE AND THE RESPONSE TO RECENT
                          CATASTROPHIC FLOODS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                          AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                     ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             JUNE 19, 2019

                               __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and 
                            Entrepreneurship
                            
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
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            COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                     ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                              ----------                              
                     MARCO RUBIO, Florida, Chairman
              BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland, Ranking Member
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
RAND PAUL, Kentucky                  JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
JONI ERNST, Iowa                     CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma            CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
TODD YOUNG, Indiana                  MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
MITT ROMNEY, Utah                    JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
             Michael A. Needham, Republican Staff Director
                 Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           Opening Statements

                                                                   Page

Ernst, Hon. Joni, a U.S. Senator from Iowa.......................     1
Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., Ranking Member, a U.S. Senator from 
  Maryland.......................................................     3

                               Witnesses
                                Panel 1

Rivera, Mr. James, Associate Administrator, Office of Disaster 
  Assistance, U.S. Small Business Administration, Washington, DC.     5

                                Panel 2

Shimkat, Ms. Lisa, State Director, America's SBDC Iowa, Ames, IA.    16
Barnes, Ms. Robin, Executive Vice President and Chief Operating 
  Officer, Greater New Orleans, Inc., New Orleans, LA............    31
Barnes, Mr. Jason, Owner, All Time Toys, Eldersburg, MD..........    40

                          Alphabetical Listing

Barnes, Mr. Jason
    Testimony....................................................    40
    Prepared statement...........................................    42
Barnes, Ms. Robin
    Testimony....................................................    31
    Prepared statement...........................................    33
    Responses to questions submitted by Senator Kennedy..........    67
Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L.
    Opening statement............................................     3
Ernst, Hon. Joni
    Opening statement............................................     1
Rivera, Mr. James
    Testimony....................................................     5
    Prepared statement...........................................     7
    Responses to questions submitted by Senators Inhofe, Hirono, 
      Kennedy, Rosen, and Duckworth..............................    52
Shimkat, Ms. Lisa
    Testimony....................................................    16
    Prepared statement...........................................    19

 
                   EXAMINING SBA'S OFFICE OF DISASTER
                 ASSISTANCE AND THE RESPONSE TO RECENT
                          CATASTROPHIC FLOODS

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, JUNE 19, 2019

                      United States Senate,
                        Committee on Small Business
                                      and Entrepreneurship,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:00 p.m., in 
Room 428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Joni Ernst, 
presiding.
    Present: Senators Rubio, Ernst, Hawley, Cardin, Cantwell, 
Shaheen, and Duckworth.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JONI ERNST, A U.S. SENATOR FROM IOWA

    Senator Ernst. Good afternoon. Today's hearing of the 
Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship will 
come to order. Thank you all for being here and welcome to our 
witnesses. I also want to thank Chairman Rubio for letting me 
take the gavel today.
    Today's hearing is titled Examining SBA's Office of 
Disaster Assistance and the Response to Recent Catastrophic 
Floods. It will discuss SBA's disaster programs and their 
footprint in response to the recent flooding in the Midwest. We 
will also continue our work to reauthorize the Small Business 
Act, focusing today on the critical role SBA's Office of 
Disaster Assistance plays in helping individuals and businesses 
recover after a disaster strikes.
    In my home State of Iowa, widespread flooding has had a 
devastating impact, causing an estimated $1.6 billion in damage 
in Iowa alone, with even more damage reported across the 
Midwest. Although the flooding began in March, this is an 
ongoing disaster, as a wet spring has led to further flooding 
in areas where the water was beginning to recede.
    To make matters worse, the flooding throughout much of 
western Iowa is deja vu for many of the victims, as some of 
these same communities were affected by widespread flooding in 
2011.
    Thankfully, as folks begin to rebuild their homes and 
neighborhoods they will be aided by the Disaster Supplemental 
Package that was signed into law earlier this month, which 
included my amendment for USDA to cover the loss of on-farm 
stored grain. While this is just one step in the recovery, it 
will help victims of the flooding to get back on their feet.
    During my visits to the disaster areas, I have seen 
firsthand the devastating impact the flooding had on our small 
businesses and have met with a number of business owners about 
the challenges they are facing. Many of these folks were just 
recovering from flooding this spring before finding their 
businesses under water yet again this month.
    The SBA's Office of Disaster Assistance has played an 
essential role in the recovery effort by providing services and 
counseling to our small business owners, but it is important 
that we continually assess these programs to ensure they are 
providing effective and timely assistance to the victims.
    The disaster assistance programs provided by the SBA allow 
victims of a disaster to receive direct loans and working 
capital for physical damage or economic injury. Homeowners, 
renters, and businesses of all sizes can apply for SBA disaster 
assistance in presidentially declared or SBA-declared disaster 
areas.
    There are three types of loans that are offered by the 
Office of Disaster Assistance. These are home and personal 
property disaster loans, business physical disaster loans, and 
economic injury disaster loans. Many are unaware that the SBA 
gives loans to not just businesses but also to homeowners and 
physical property owners after disasters.
    In fact, over 80 percent of SBA's disaster loans are given 
to individuals and homeowners through home and personal 
property disaster loans, which contain two categories of loans. 
The first is personal property loans, which provide up to 
$40,000 to uninsured or underinsured individuals to repair or 
replace their property at their primary residence for items 
such as appliances and furniture. The second is real property 
loans, which allow homeowners who are uninsured to obtain up to 
$200,000 to restore their primary property to its pre-disaster 
status.
    Next, business physical disaster loans can provide loans up 
to $2 million to businesses of all sizes to repair or replace 
damaged property, equipment, or inventory. Finally, small 
businesses can receive up to $2 million in working capital 
through SBA's economic injury disaster loans to aid small 
businesses that have suffered economic losses from the 
disaster.
    These programs have helped homeowners and small businesses 
alike. However, according to the SBA Inspector General, SBA has 
continued to have issues delivering expedited relief to 
disaster victims while mitigating fraud and improper payments.
    It is important that as we look to reauthorize the Small 
Business Act we remain focused on ensuring we are protecting 
taxpayer dollars while keenly assisting our communities. I hope 
today's discussion will be a productive step toward improving 
the Federal Government's response to disasters, including these 
catastrophic floods, and shed some light on how we can enhance 
the integral role SBA plays in helping survivors get back on 
their feet and on with their lives.
    And with that, thank you again. Senator Cardin, I will turn 
it to you.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, RANKING MEMBER, A 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM MARYLAND

    Senator Cardin. Well, Senator Ernst, first of all, thank 
you for help in putting together this hearing and for your 
leadership on this Committee. It is always a pleasure to work 
with Senator Rubio in the Chair but it is also nice to have you 
in the Chair, so welcome to that.
    This is a continuation of our hearings on the 
reauthorization of programs under the Small Business 
Administration. This hearing is going to be on disaster 
assistance programs, which is a critically important part of 
the SBA toolbox.
    Senator Ernst, I know the pain that you have gone through 
in your community in the Midwest with the continuing flooding, 
and you have our heartfelt feelings, and we obviously want to 
come together as a Nation to do everything we can to help the 
people that have been victimized, and do everything we can to 
make the circumstances better.
    I experienced this firsthand in Maryland, in Ellicott City. 
Ellicott City experienced two deadly floods in a period of less 
than two years, where floodwaters came down Main Street, which 
is basically family-owned-type businesses, what a Main Street 
used to be and still is in Ellicott City, Maryland. This was a 
unique flood. We have had flooding before where the river banks 
just rose. This was so much rain in such a short period of time 
the flow of the water caused the damage.
    I was there. I saw firsthand the damage that was inflicted, 
the loss of life, the loss of property. Jason Barnes is here 
from All Time Toys, and we will have a chance for him on this 
second panel.
    But I want to tell you, when I got there I was so impressed 
to see SBA already there. They were on the ground, working and 
helping and providing the necessary information to the property 
owners. I will also acknowledge the SBDCs that were there. Now 
we anticipated that, in the law that we passed in 2015, the 
RISE Act, to empower the SBDCs to play a greater role in the 
recovery process. They provided resources for training, et 
cetera, and it worked. And it was, I think, the right thing to 
do, because, quite frankly, the resource partners know the 
communities best. So the SBDCs, the Women's Business Centers, 
SCORE, these affiliates can really help with the businesses on 
the ground to give them firsthand advice on how to keep their 
businesses going. And I think we need to take a look at the 
CDFIs to see whether we cannot use them in a better way in 
disaster relief.
    Our focus here is whether we can be more effective in the 
use of the tools that we have. That is the reauthorization 
process. Senator Ernst mentioned the tools that are available. 
I will not go back over them. But let me just tell you the 
numbers, as I understand it. Forty percent of small businesses 
cannot survive a major disaster. They never reopen. That is a 
shocking number. So we need to try to do something better.
    One of the things you hear frequently is that they need 
quick access to capital, and that is why the SBA program for 
disaster relief is unique. It is direct loans, and it applies 
not just to small businesses but to property owners, 
residential property owners. So it is a broader program, and we 
have made a lot progress in streamlining the process so they 
can get their capital quicker. I think it is about three weeks, 
on average, in order to be able to get disaster loans from the 
SBA.
    Well, quite frankly, for some businesses three weeks is too 
long. They need the money immediately in order to be able to 
keep their doors open. As I understand it, also, we tried to do 
something about that in 2008, with new bridge loans that did 
not work. I am not blaming anybody why it did not work. There 
was no, as I understand it, commercial bank interest. It just 
did not work. But the need is still there. So are there other 
things we can do to allow businesses to access capital sooner 
in order to bridge and stay in existence?
    Fifty percent of those who apply for the SBA disaster loans 
do not qualify for it. So if there is a three-week 
determination and then they have to go to the next source, 
which might be through FEMA and HUD, can we coordinate that 
better so that they have clear direction sooner as to what is 
available to keep them in business?
    The other thing I think we need to concentrate on is to 
recognize that small businesses need help to be prepared for 
disaster for a plan of business continuation. You do not think 
about it until after you are out of business, but you really 
should be having those discussions, and we should be able, 
through SBA, to provide those types of services earlier, and 
obviously we also need to look at, and we do allow funds that 
are made available through the SBA to deal with mitigation to 
reduce the risks in the future.
    These are all important issues. We have an excellent panel. 
So I look forward to hearing from our witnesses.
    Senator Ernst. Thank you very much, Senator Cardin. And 
what I would like to remind, for our panels, we have got some 
wonderful witnesses here today for our panel and for our 
audience today. We will have a series of votes beginning at 
3:30 p.m., so I will apologize ahead of time. We will be 
coordinating to move back and forth to the floor of the U.S. 
Senate. But if we need to we may have to take just a short 
recess to accommodate any movement. But again, I want to thank 
our witnesses for being here today.
    So we are going to go ahead and start with our first panel, 
and thank you, Mr. Rivera, for being here.
    James Rivera is the Associate Administrator in the Office 
of Disaster Assistance of the U.S. Small Business 
Administration here in Washington, D.C. Prior to this position, 
Rivera served as Deputy Associate Administrator of the Office 
of Disaster Assistance, improving the agency's disaster 
operations after Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, and Wilma. He has 
worked in the Office of Disaster Assistance since 1994.
    Rivera received his bachelor of business administration 
degree in finance and economics from Texas Tech University.
    Thank you again, Mr. Rivera, for being here today. We will 
go ahead. If you would please, we will listen to your opening 
statement.

 STATEMENT OF JAMES RIVERA, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF 
   DISASTER ASSISTANCE, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION, 
                         WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Rivera. Thank you, Senator Ernst and Ranking Member 
Cardin, and members of the Committee. I appreciate the 
opportunity to testify today on the agency's current Federal 
disaster efforts in the Midwest as well as other areas in the 
country.
    Let me start by saying how much we appreciate the support 
you have provided the agency and our disaster program. Over the 
years you have been very responsive to our findings and 
staffing needs, and we are thankful for the working 
relationship with the Committee and the leadership you provide.
    I also want to share how proud I am of the men and women in 
the SBA's Office of Disaster Assistance. They are a dedicated 
group who work very hard year-round to help disaster survivors 
in time of need. Working with our Federal partners and State 
Emergency Management Agencies, SBA is on the ground soon after 
the weather events, to begin assessing damage. In coordination 
with your governor, SBA will help determine if appropriate 
factors might exist for Federal disaster declarations.
    Ultimately, requests for Federal disaster declarations are 
initiated by the governor's office and fall into one of two 
categories. A major declaration is submitted to and approved by 
the President and involves Federal agencies including FEMA, 
SBA, and HUD. An agency or SBA declaration would involve only 
SBA resources and is approved by the SBA administrator.
    To give you a sense of scale, in fiscal year 2018, SBA 
responded to a total of 13 major presidential declarations and 
35 agency declarations. So far in fiscal 2019, SBA has 
responded to 13 presidential major declarations and 34 agency 
declarations. We have current disaster declarations in Iowa, 
Oklahoma, Indiana, Illinois, and Kentucky. In addition, we 
continue to provide disaster loan assistance to survivors from 
Hurricane Florence in South Carolina and Hurricane Michael in 
Florida.
    Senator Ernst, in your home State of Iowa, we continue to 
serve disaster survivors of severe flooding, and have so far 
approved over 300 loans for over $27 million. We will continue 
to keep you informed of our efforts and we hope you will 
continue to call on us if we can be helpful in any way.
    Just last week, our acting administrator had the 
opportunity to visit with Governor Reynolds to provide her an 
update on our activity. We made the same offer to her to please 
reach out if we can help answer questions, clarify loan status, 
or simply help disaster survivors to the right contact.
    A large part of our success in providing disaster loan 
assistance to survivors are the improvements we have made in 
processing and approving loans. Since 2005, we have greatly 
reduced our cycle times to a current average of 8 days for home 
loans and 12 days for businesses. In Iowa right now, those 
numbers are slightly lower, with 7 days for homes and 10 days 
for businesses.
    We also just spent a lot of time expanding our preparedness 
efforts. Just last week, we conducted a conference for agency 
personnel involving media training. Additionally, we continue 
to focus on outreach plans for working with local, State, and 
Federal officials, as well as our resource partners. We have 
focused staff efforts this year on interagency coordination, 
and on Monday we conducted a conference call with all the 
governors' offices to refresh them on our role and to share our 
points of contact.
    In my almost 30 years of working at SBA, most of it has 
been in the disaster program. I have learned that every 
disaster event is unique. The agency has come a long way and we 
have made numerous improvements to address the challenges we 
face in every disaster. The SBA team will continue to be there 
for disaster survivors and we hope you will continue to call on 
us when disaster events impact your State.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to testify and for your 
ongoing support.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Rivera follows:]
    
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    Senator Ernst. Thank you very much. I really do appreciate 
that, and I would like to echo what Ranking Member Cardin had 
said as well, during the Ellicott City flooding, that you saw 
SBA there right away. And I would say that with the flooding in 
southwest Iowa, SBA was there right away as well, so I do 
appreciate that.
    We will go ahead and start our round of questions for you, 
Mr. Rivera. I will go ahead and start and then we will pass it 
off to Senator Cardin.
    To receive SBA disaster assistance, folks must go through a 
pretty convoluted process. At least that is the way it seems to 
the folks back home. For example, I have received feedback that 
many disaster victims are unaware that you have to be denied by 
FEMA in order to receive the SBA assistance.
    What can we do to better educate the folks that are going 
through a very stressful time, to make sure they understand 
what that process is?
    Mr. Rivera. Thank you for the question. ``Convoluted'' is 
not the word I like to use. We like to use the word 
``streamlined.''
    We refer everybody to FEMA, DisasterAssistance.gov. From 
every Administration I have worked for, the face of 
presidential declarations is FEMA. So if you go through the 
DisasterAssistance.gov portal, when you register with FEMA, 
what we have done from a streamlining perspective, 30 of those 
data points, when they get referred to--actually get 
transferred, so the disaster survivor, when they are filling 
out our application, do not have to go through that same 
process with those 30 data points, from that perspective.
    We continue to work closely with FEMA. We are trying to 
make the process as simple as possible, but that is the current 
process that we are currently working through. But we continue 
to try to maximize any sort of efficiencies we can get with 
FEMA, to the SBA process.
    Senator Ernst. Okay. So would it be fair to just simply say 
then, everything needs to start with FEMA? Everything needs to 
start with FEMA.
    Mr. Rivera. So we are covered by the Disaster Recovery 
Framework, the broad interagency coordination between 25 
Federal and State agencies, so the first point of contact is 
Disaster Assistance. What a lot of disaster survivors do not 
realize is that they may not be eligible for SBA assistance on 
the front end, so FEMA will filter out those individuals and 
will refer them to their unmet needs program, which is another 
FEMA program. So we have tried to simplify the process from 
that perspective.
    Senator Ernst. Okay. Thank you very much. And on a similar 
note, what we have heard from folks going through some of these 
disaster loans, there have been improvements, and you did 
mention some lower days to actually get those disaster loans. 
And there have been improvements on the issue by moving to 
things like desktop verifications, and maybe you can talk a 
little bit about that, versus the on-the-ground inspections. We 
know that more progress is always needed. If there is a way 
that we could assist with that, we want to do that.
    I have heard from some folks who have been flooded out of 
their homes and attempted to purchase other homes in the 
community, using SBA financing, but they were unable to meet 
closing dates because of certain SBA delays.
    So what can SBA and Congress do to ensure that the folks 
are receiving their assistance in a timelier manner? So while 
they may be approved, there are certain delays.
    Mr. Rivera. If I can start back with Katrina-Rita-Wilma, I 
know 2005 is a long time ago. We used to take every disaster 
survivor through the entire experience, and up front we knew a 
lot of these individuals would not qualify for a loan, but we 
went ahead and put them through the credit score, the 
verification process, the full processing. And that is why it 
took us 74 days to process a home loan back then.
    Since we have actually started streamlining the processes, 
we know, up front, that individuals with a lower credit score 
will not qualify for an SBA loan. That is approximately 30 
percent that we call get automatically declined.
    We experienced--if I can take you to 2012, during 
Superstorm Sandy--it took us 10 days, on average, to get a loss 
verifier, one of our staff on the ground to do a physical 
inspection on the ground. So since that period of time--we 
started doing this during Harvey, Irma, and Maria--we actually 
do a desktop verification. So what we get is we get similar to 
a footprint of a Realty.com that shows the home or the 
business, and we have Marshall & Swift standards that can say, 
based on three feet of water you cut sheetrock up to four feet, 
and so forth and so on. And we can estimate what it costs to 
repair or replace that home or that business. So that actually 
cut five days off of our processing time.
    We continue to have these rigorous internal controls in 
place to make sure that we are not jeopardizing any taxpayer 
funds, from that perspective. But those are a couple of 
examples that we have used over the years that have accelerated 
the processing times.
    Senator Ernst. Okay. And you said that the process now, we 
are down to 8 days in Iowa for homes?
    Mr. Rivera. Yes, ma'am. We are running 7 days for homes and 
about 10, 11 days for businesses. And I always caution 
everybody that will listen to me, our goal is two to three 
weeks, just based on volume. We do not really know how much 
volume we are going to get. But we are able to successfully get 
most applications in that 10-day time frame.
    Senator Ernst. Okay. Wonderful. Well, I appreciate that, 
and thanks for moving to that desktop verification. That sounds 
like it has helped. I appreciate it.
    Ranking Member Cardin.
    Senator Cardin. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you very much 
for your dedicated service. You have done this for a long time 
and we appreciate it very much.
    Let me tell you the confusion that I see in the system, the 
way it is designed. A business owner who has not had experience 
with a disaster or how to keep a business open all of a sudden 
finds that they are in a crisis situation. They need to get 
capital quickly if they are going to be able to stay in 
business, if they are going to pay their creditors. They may 
have critical employees that they have to deal with.
    And the SBA gives a loan, and you can make that decision 
kind of quickly, but you have to qualify for it. But through 
FEMA and HUD you could get a grant. So if I am there the day 
after a flood, it seems to me I have choices to make, and it 
does seem like it is set up with challenges to figure out where 
I should go. If I go through the FEMA route and wait that time 
I might be out of business before they qualify me for a grant. 
If I go through the SBA you could do it quickly, but I have to 
qualify for a loan, and that means if I would have qualified 
for HUD I may not have qualified for SBA.
    So how do we make this easier for people to understand?
    Mr. Rivera. The current process that we have everyone 
follow is start with FEMA. Even if you are a small business you 
probably have employees that may have been impacted by the 
disaster. FEMA does a real quick referral on businesses. They 
provide minimal assistance from that perspective to businesses. 
Once they come to us we will process the application in that 
two- to three-week time frame.
    In larger presidential declarations, HUD, with their 
Community Development Block Grant, DR funds do come into the 
scenario, but usually it is further behind us, from that 
perspective.
    From a Federal response perspective, you know, we are 
probably the only player in town when it comes to disaster 
businesses that play.
    Senator Cardin. So you are saying HUD is not a player in 
this?
    Mr. Rivera. They are in some cases. It is dependent on how 
the grantee for the specific State is set up. We have seen 
where some businesses are eligible for grants, but that is 
after it has filtered through the SBA loan program.
    Senator Cardin. Okay. And I understand you are not 
responsible for that. I fully understand that. But if I am 
going to qualify for a HUD grant my income has got to be pretty 
low, and I am the most vulnerable to be out of business before 
we get to that point, aren't I?
    Mr. Rivera. Yes, sir.
    Senator Cardin. All right. We have identified a problem. 
How do we fix it?
    Mr. Rivera. That is always the challenge we have, is just 
how quickly we can provide the service from that perspective. 
We encourage lenders out there that have a current existing 
base to borrow. I was a commercial lender in the private sector 
before I came to SBA. We would not make those loans. Or we 
would ask them--we would ask--you know, I had a portfolio of 
road contractors. That is how I became familiar with SBA 
disaster lending. They flooded, and I was asked to lose a 
relationship as a desk officer. And here comes SBA to make the 
loans, from that perspective.
    We do not--we are not--I wish we could help everybody, but, 
on average, our approval rate is in the 50 percent range, so 
that is the best we can do from that perspective.
    Senator Cardin. All right. I will ask one final open 
question for you. We are looking at reauthorizing and changing 
laws to make them work better. So from the SBA point of view--
we will leave HUD and FEMA aside right now--but from the SBA 
point of view, do you have any priorities for us to consider to 
make your job a little bit easier and to give easier time for 
those who have been victimized, businesses that have been 
victimized?
    Mr. Rivera. Right. Well, one of the big items that we would 
like to make permanent is the reauthorization of the RISE Act 
as far as the insecure threshold. It sunset last year--it did 
not sunset last year. It got extended last year to Thanksgiving 
of this year. What that means is for an unsecured loan we can 
make an initial disbursement up to $25,000. Without that 
authority, when it sunsets, it will go back to $14,000. So that 
is an additional $9,000 worth of capital we can provide through 
a low-interest, long-term loan. That is one of the bigger 
items.
    Money is always an issue, even though we closely watch the 
taxpayer funds. We have spent close to $200 million this year 
as a result of Florence and Michael earlier this year. So I 
know that is a part of the appropriations staff, but those are 
probably the two major things.
    Senator Cardin. And we can weigh in with appropriators. I 
appreciate that.
    How about the CDFIs? Could they play a stronger role?
    Mr. Rivera. We have not dealt with CDFIs in the disaster 
arena. That is a really good question. I mean, we can go back 
and do some due diligence on that, from that perspective, but I 
have not--we have not dealt with the CDFI community. You know, 
we have dealt with--very few banks have been interested in the 
program, because of the risk associated with a disaster loan.
    Senator Cardin. We will follow up on that, but as you know, 
the RISE Act did empower certainly the development centers, so 
we will take a look at that. Thank you.
    Mr. Rivera. Thank you.
    Senator Ernst. Senator Hawley.
    Senator Hawley. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Mr. Rivera, can I just--I want to go back to Senator 
Cardin's line of questioning about loans versus grants, just to 
make the point again that often those who have been impacted 
by, for example, flooding like we have experienced here in the 
State of Missouri, or my State of Missouri, are not in the best 
situation when it comes to their credit, and yet SBA's disaster 
relief is currently centered around loans.
    So I am just wondering, is there space for more grant 
programs to assist both homeowners and small businesses?
    Mr. Rivera. From my perspective, the Small Business Act is 
only, under 7(b), from the Disaster Loan Program, we can only 
provide loan assistance. We have never been given the 
opportunity to provide business grants.
    Senator Hawley. Should we change that?
    Mr. Rivera. That is really your call. We will acquiesce to 
whatever it is from that perspective. There has been some grant 
assistance down the road, but historically we have just been a 
direct lender.
    Senator Hawley. Sticking with just the topics of flooding 
and recovering from it, to date, no Federal dollars have yet 
been spent in response to the terrible flooding we have 
experienced in Missouri, partly because, in the first weeks of 
flooding, we did not qualify under the Stafford Act guidelines, 
for the extent of the damage required before a State qualifies 
for aid. We do now, and appeal is under consideration, and I 
believe--I have every indication from the relevant agencies 
that we are going to get that aid as soon as possible.
    However, while we are going through this process, there are 
hundreds of Missouri families and businesses who are 
struggling, and it prompts me to ask, do you think that the 
Stafford Act and other guidelines, as currently structured, are 
maximizing our ability to get timely relief to folks who need 
it?
    Mr. Rivera. The choice of how a declaration is declared, is 
at the governor's--you know, at the governor's hand. 
Presidential declarations include--Stafford Act declarations 
include other types of assistance--individual assistance, 
public assistance--I am sure you know all of this--mitigation, 
and so forth and so on. Ours is a very narrow disaster loans 
only. So the governor does have the ability to go presidential, 
and we stand behind the President, and, you know, we sit and we 
wait until the President declares, or if they decline it then 
what we can do is we can proceed forward with our regulatory 
criteria.
    We have two different types of disaster declarations. They 
are in our Code of Federal Regulations. If there is a governor 
certification, if there are five small businesses have 
sustained substantial economic injury, we can do an Economic 
Injury Disaster Loan Program. On the flip side, if 25 homes or 
businesses sustained 40 percent or more uninsured loss, we can 
provide an agency declaration for physical loss. But we stand 
down until the decision through the presidential process has 
been finalized.
    Senator Hawley. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Senator Ernst. Thank you. Do you have any other questions.
    Senator Cardin. No.
    Senator Ernst. Okay. Well, since we do not have other 
members present we appreciate the time and the information. If 
we do have other members that have questions for the record we 
will submit those to you, Mr. Rivera, but again, I want to 
thank you very much for being here today and representing the 
SBA and the disaster loan program. So thank you.
    And at this time we will go ahead and move forward to the 
second panel.
    Senator Cardin. So that the members of the second panel 
understanding, I am leaving only so I can cast a vote so we can 
keep the hearing going as long as possible, but I will be back 
in time to drill you in questioning. Don't worry.
    [Pause.]
    Senator Ernst. Thank you to the members of our second 
panel. We will go ahead and get started. We will start with 
opening statements from each one of you. First I will go ahead 
and make the introductions of the members of our panel, and 
again, I want to thank you very much for being here today.
    So a very special welcome, of course, from me to our first 
panelist, Lisa Shimkat. She is the State Director of the Iowa 
Small Business Development Center. Shimkat has worked for the 
Iowa Small Business Development Center since 2007, and received 
the National State Star Award in 2010, commending her 
performance as an SBDC.
    Ms. Shimkat received her MBA from Iowa State University, 
which is the finest of institutions known to man--thank you so 
much--and is a Certified Business Advisor from University of 
Toledo, and obtained an Economic Development Finance 
Professional Certification through the National Development 
Council.
    We are incredibly lucky to have Ms. Shimkat in Iowa. She is 
a tremendous asset for small businesses across our State, and 
she and her staff have played a critical role in helping our 
flood victims get back on their feet this year. So, Lisa, thank 
you very much for being here.
    Next we have Robin Barnes. Thank you very much, Ms. Barnes, 
for being here. She serves as the Executive Vice President at 
Greater New Orleans, Inc., the Regional Economic Development 
Organization for Southeast Louisiana, and oversees several 
major initiatives designed to create and protect jobs in the 
region.
    She has a deep knowledge of disaster resilience strategies, 
having served on the Hurricane Sandy Rebuilding Task Force in 
2013, and as the Director of the Louisiana office of Seedco 
Financial, a national nonprofit community development financial 
institution, where she ran the organization's emergency 
business and economic recovery response to Hurricanes Katrina, 
Rita, Gustave, and Ike, and the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. 
She also opened the Seedco Financial Southeast Louisiana 
Fisheries Assistance Center in Belle Chasse, Louisiana, the 
first business assistance center for commercial fisheries. 
Following 9/11, she managed small business recovery programs 
for Seedco in New York.
    Thank you very much, Ms. Barnes, for your efforts.
    And Jason Barnes, our final panelist today, thank you very 
much, sir, for being here. He is the owner of All Time Toys, 
which has been in business since 2006, and was formed by a 
group of friends. In the summer of 2016, their store in 
Ellicott City was hit by a major flash flood, which left the 
company in shambles. However, Mr. Barnes worked with the 
Maryland Small Business Development Center for two years to re-
establish his business, and laid the groundwork for a second 
location in Eldersburg, Maryland.
    When another flood hit Ellicott City in 2018, All Time 
Toys' original location was completely destroyed yet again, 
this time beyond repair. But thanks to his efforts in the two 
years between disasters, his business was able to survive and 
has actually continued to grow in a second location.
    Thanks for your perseverance. Thank you for being here.
    Again, welcome to the members of our second panel, and Ms. 
Shimkat, we will go ahead and start with you.

STATEMENT OF LISA SHIMKAT, STATE DIRECTOR, AMERICA'S SBDC IOWA, 
                            AMES, IA

    Ms. Shimkat. Thank you, Chairwoman Ernst, Ranking Member 
Cardin, and members of the Committee. Thank you for inviting me 
to testify today. I am the State Director of Iowa's SBDC. My 
background includes both SBA and USDA programs. I was raised in 
Iowa, moved away after college, following a path through 
Chicago, Myrtle Beach, Atlanta, and then we chose to return to 
Iowa to raise our children.
    I am here today to share information about the flooding 
disaster that has gripped our State in its clutches, and it 
does not seem to be ready to leave any time soon. Iowa has been 
hit with a flood event that started in March of 2019. Our SBDC 
teams reached out immediately to the economic developers, 
chambers, and other partners to let them know how we are able 
to help. They encouraged them to make sure to use us as a tool 
in their toolbox to help local businesses navigate through the 
process of clean-up and move toward recovery.
    The sustainability of these small, rural communities 
depended upon our State working together and working quickly to 
find information, hopefully solutions, for these small 
businesses.
    Sadly, businesses who were able to clean up in May, when 
the waters receded, were hit by a second round of flooding the 
first week in June. Roads that had just opened to bring 
visitors and consumers back to our business communities were 
closed again.
    The flood is a different kind of disaster, a different kind 
of frustration, and I hope to be able to discuss how a 
different kind of defense is needed.
    On March 23rd, it was announced that the several Disaster 
Recovery Centers and Business Recovery Centers were going to 
open. During this time, we were also communicating with the 
Office of the Governor, Iowa Economic Development Authority, 
the Iowa DOT, Secretary of Ag, and many county and local 
officials.
    Businesses were affected in varying degrees. Keg Creek 
Brewing Company was impacted by fresh water availability and 
transportation. A boil issue was in effect for their area and 
they had two choices--either boil their own water or have it 
trucked in from Red Oak, which added another 30-mile round-trip 
drive. The additional handling of the water and the extended 
commute time for their employees due to a majority of the roads 
in the area closed increased their production costs by 
approximately 30 percent. Their distributor is in Nebraska, 
which provides additional challenges because many of the roads 
across the Missouri River are closed.
    Several communities have been devastated. Hamburg, Iowa, is 
a community with a population of just over 1,000 residents. 
They were still under water when we toured. We saw homes that 
were gutted, belongings sitting on the front lawns while the 
home itself looked like just an empty shell. What once held a 
family now just held nothing. I have never felt so much 
hopelessness. Tanya Garfield, Director of the SBA Disaster 
Field Ops immediately got on her phone and had her team set up 
a Business Recovery Center in Hamburg.
    Businesses lost more than just inventory. The clean-up 
efforts seemed insurmountable. One small business owner reached 
out to her SBDC counselor after mud and debris filled her 
building. Our regional director went over to her place the next 
day, which was a Saturday, and on her own time spent 12 hours 
helping Alicia scoop mud out of the building. The flood waters 
came back in June, and that business owner is under water 
again, and will not be reopening. She is frustrated that the 
programs were not designed for smaller businesses like hers.
    Interstate highways and local roadways north and south of 
Council Bluffs, along the Missouri River, were overtopped and 
damaged due to the high flow rate of flood waters. Flooding 
caused the closure of approximately 48 miles of Interstate 29 
and three major Missouri River crossings in Southwest Iowa. 
This means that there are 125 miles between open State highway 
bridges crossing the Missouri River. The only way for commuters 
and freight to cross is through bridges in the Omaha/Council 
Bluffs area and St. Joseph, Missouri. The DOT estimates 45,000 
vehicles and trucks were detoured per day.
    Throughout the floods so far, SBDCs have played, and 
continue to play an integral role in disaster response and 
recovery in Iowa. SBDC counselors and advisors are often first 
on the scene, helping businesses and communities rebound from 
the damage. We work closely with State and Federal agencies to 
make sure that small businesses, rural small businesses as 
well, the backbone of our community, are supported. SBDCs offer 
significant advising to our clients during the response. SBA 
disaster team leads did a great job coordinating with the SBDC 
network.
    Disaster recovery is not a one size fits all. We need to 
find ways to help get rural businesses back to wealth creation.
    In closing, thank you for letting me share my thoughts and 
I look forward to questions and sharing ideas for how to 
address this problem.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Shimkat follows:]
    
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    Chairman Rubio [presiding]. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Barnes.

 STATEMENT OF ROBIN BARNES, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF 
 OPERATING OFFICER, GREATER NEW ORLEANS, INC., NEW ORLEANS, LA

    Ms. Barnes. Chairman Rubio, Senator Ernst, Ranking Member 
Cardin, and members of the Committee, including my Senator from 
Louisiana, Senator John Kennedy, thank you for inviting me to 
speak with you today. I am Executive Vice president at Greater 
New Orleans, Inc. I have worked with small businesses engaged 
in disaster recovery from 9/11 to Katrina and beyond, and I 
also served on the Hurricane Sandy Rebuilding Task Force.
    Today I stand in solidarity with my colleagues here and 
with communities around the country that have experienced 
disasters and are recovering, rebuilding, and building 
resilience to weather their next disaster or market shock.
    So many of you on this Committee represent districts that 
have been brought to complete halts by disasters. We know 
reviving and bolstering the small business ecosystem can be one 
of the most effective strategies for jump-starting the recovery 
after a disaster. Small businesses are fundamental to the 
economic and social health of their communities. They provide 
critical services, enhance quality of life, supply major 
industries, generate tax revenues, and offer economic mobility 
opportunities for people of all ages, ethnicities, and genders. 
Small businesses have generated over 65 percent of net new jobs 
since 1995, and that is why I am honored to be here today with 
all of you, for this important national conversation.
    GNO, Inc.'s mission is to create a greater New Orleans with 
a thriving economy and an excellent quality of life for 
everyone. Since Hurricane Katrina, Greater New Orleans is 
creating new and supportive road maps for small business 
growth. Some key examples include our Louisiana Small Business 
Recovery and Grant Program, a $230 million multi-pronged 
effort, funded by HUD CDBG after Katrina, that enabled 4,500 
small businesses, including restaurants, commercial fisheries 
to reopen.
    The New Orleans Startup Fund is a CDFI that has created 
1,400 jobs through its investments and serves as the investment 
arm for Propeller, a nonprofit incubator that grows and 
supports entrepreneurs to tackle social and environmental 
disparities.
    The post-Katrina recovery process revealed critical gaps in 
the small business ecosystem that prevented full participation 
of local small businesses in the rebuilding. New infrastructure 
and new tools have been established to ensure full 
participation moving forward. For example, the City of New 
Orleans revamped its DBE program, piloted a mobilization fund, 
and organizations like the Urban League of Louisiana, Launch 
NOLA, Good Work Network, and the New Orleans Business Alliance 
identified niche opportunities to better serve entrepreneurs. I 
believe that these innovations in my community can be 
replicated and scaled to benefit small businesses nationwide.
    After most disasters, small businesses first rely on their 
insurance--if they have insurance--their reserves, and the help 
of neighbors to get up and running. After the worst disasters, 
they require the help of the Federal Government. SBA loans and 
other Federal resources in the forms of grants and technical 
assistance are critical to economic recovery.
    I commend Congress for the passage of the 2015 RISE Act, 
which has catalyzed several improvements in the process of 
helping small businesses recover from disasters.
    When considering additional small business disaster 
recovery solutions, I would ask the Committee members to 
include the following three components:
    One, access to capital. Quick access to small loans and 
grants is key to small business survival, and that is a fact. 
Many of the small businesses that borrow funds after a disaster 
are first-time borrowers, and as you can imagine, a disaster is 
not necessarily the best time to take on debt for the very 
first time. Therefore, it is imperative that there are other 
sources of funding, like grants, to be considered, and that 
technical assistance is provided to support the businesses 
before, during, and after the loan is made. Community 
development field can play a great role here with organizations 
such as CDFIs.
    Two, technical assistance and information about resources 
and services. After a disaster, businesses need immediate, 
direct, and consistent communication about resources available 
to them and how to access those services. The SBDCs are key 
providers of this sort of assistance. But also there are other 
community-based and economic development organizations in 
communities that know how to engage the most vulnerable 
populations and can accommodate language and literacy barriers. 
And, frankly, sometimes what is needed is for someone to go out 
into the field, open up an iPad, and walk someone through a 
loan application process.
    Three, building business resilience. Building business 
resilience means not only anticipating near-term disasters but 
also planning for the long-term future. Making businesses aware 
of the need for, and availability of flood insurance is key, 
but furthermore, including businesses in a broader conversation 
about climate adaptation, long-term planning, and how 
businesses can consider adapting their business model to 
accommodate the severe weather patterns and transition their 
businesses to other opportunities.
    In conclusion, I thank you for this opportunity and I offer 
myself and my organization, GNO, Inc., as a resource to you in 
the future.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Robin Barnes follows:]
    
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    Senator Ernst [presiding]. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Barnes.

     STATEMENT OF MR. JASON BARNES, OWNER, ALL TIME TOYS, 
                         ELDERSBURG, MD

    Mr. Barnes. Thank you, Senator Cardin and Senator Ernst for 
having me. I am the owner of All Time Toys that was located in 
Ellicott City, Maryland, until the May 2018 flash flood. I am 
now located in Eldersburg, Maryland. I was employed by the 
company in 2005, and worked my way up to the operations manager 
and then, on June 1st, 2016, I bought the company, only two 
months before the July 30th, 2016, flood.
    The 2016 flood completely devastated my business and caused 
a complete system failure across the board. I lost about 75 
percent of the total company, including most inventory and the 
back-end systems needed to support the business.
    Several days later, I was sitting in the Disaster 
Assistance Center, completely drained. I was emotionally and 
physically beaten and was looking for answers about what to do 
next. I approached the Maryland SBDC help desk and met with its 
consultants, Craig Panos and Garrett Glover. From that point 
forward, with their continued support and knowledge and 
resources, I was able to rebuild my business and restore my 
company.
    I first met with Garrett a few days after that fateful day 
in August, and we came up with our first plan for recovery, the 
first of many ongoing strategic plans. The first priority was 
to start selling product and generate revenue. We started by 
selling what merchandise was left online and did everything 
else that was needed to get the brick-and-mortar back up and 
running, from grants to displays to staffing, and Jan. 20th, 
2017, we reopened in record time.
    What a massive success the reopening was, with some of the 
highest sales the company had ever seen. From that point 
forward, I met with Garrett on a weekly basis on a recovery 
plan. Together we worked on everything from the basics of 
merchandising to financing to advance business tool and 
systems, like diagnostic P&L formats for tracking sales and 
analyzing expenses. We created a differentiating brand ID, 
enhanced customer experience, human resource, and employee 
development procedures. We created a unique company culture 
where we could expand the company and allow it to keep growing. 
And so we did. By the winter of 2018, we started working on and 
were succeeding with plans to launch a second location within 
the year.
    Then, disaster struck again. May 2018 brought in another 
flash flood to Main Street. The second one was even more 
devastating than the 2016 flood. But, because of the work and 
lessons learned from the previous flood, we had the skills, 
systems, and confidence to rebound smartly and quickly. Within 
a month, working continuously with the SBDC, we were selling 
online, and within five months we were able to reopen again, 
but this time bigger and with a more mature operation.
    At this point our store has been open for eight months, and 
again, we are still setting new sales records, greater customer 
satisfaction, and repeat business, and, in the process, we have 
retained and created jobs. And yes, we are even now back on 
track scouting for a second location.
    In August of 2016, I was a new, clueless business owner 
facing one of the greatest disasters a business can face. And 
when I bought the company, I knew how to make money selling 
toys, but I knew nothing about being a business owner. All I 
knew is what I did not know, which was a lot. I knew I had a 
passion for toys, game, and collectibles but zero about running 
a business. But working continuously with the Maryland SBDC, 
and even after a few weeks, I was able to start learning how to 
run a business.
    The SBDC did more than just help me find financing and put 
things back together to recover. They taught me how to analyze 
and improve every aspect of my business so that I did not just 
survive but, more importantly, I could thrive moving forward. 
The lessons I have learned are too many to count and too many 
to say in any sort of time frame that would not take hours.
    You have to understand that the lessons and resources 
Garrett and Craig provide are tailored to the individual needs 
of each business. What I needed and learned might not fit what 
others needed and that is what makes them so special. Because 
of the individualized action plans and one-on-one meetings, 
they were able to find out what my business is, what my 
business needs, what I wanted my business to be, and how best 
to move forward in my disaster recovery effort.
    The greatest gift that the Maryland SBDC has given me is a 
true passion for business, which now outweighs my love of toys, 
games, and collectibles. This love of business has truly driven 
me after multiple disasters, and I am consoled knowing that the 
SBDC will always be there to help with recovery and growth, 
moving forward. I have talked about that fateful day in August 
2016, when I first started working with the SBDC, but that is 
not the one day that stands out most in my mind.
    The one most memorable day came the morning after the 
devastating May 2018 flood. My store manager and I were picking 
up our new IDs for access and survey what was left of our 
business on Main Street. When we pulled up, we saw two familiar 
faces. Both Garrett and Craig were standing there, and I knew 
from this point they were in it with us for the long haul, and 
so they have been.
    To say my business would not be standing today without the 
Maryland SBDC is an understatement, and with their help I am no 
longer just surviving disaster. I am looking to a brighter 
future where long-term success is possible.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Jason Barnes follows:]
    
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    Senator Ernst. Very good testimony from everyone. Thank you 
very much.
    We will start with our questions now, Senator Cardin and I, 
so we will--what did you say, you were going to grill them? Is 
that--okay.
    [Laughter.]
    Okay. Well, and this is for the entire panel. But according 
to FEMA, roughly 40 to 60 percent of small businesses never 
reopen their doors following a disaster. I believe that Ranking 
Member Cardin had mentioned something to that effect.
    What are some of the obstacles that prevent businesses from 
reopening after a disaster, even if they are finding the 
services you have to offer. What stops them from reopening?
    And maybe, Mr. Barnes, you might be able to speak to that 
first. What were some of the obstacles that you faced?
    Mr. Barnes. Financing was first. That was the biggest 
thing. I only had two months, previously to opening, you know, 
my shop. I put everything in to buy the company. I was sitting 
with like maybe $500. Financing was the biggest problem. There 
was a good chance that by September I was not going to be able 
to reopen. Everything was just gone. On top of that it is just 
clean-up, getting the--you know, everything up and running, 
moving forward.
    But financing was the number one, and luckily, with our 
Ellicott City, that was not as much of a problem. There were a 
lot of options available from the DHCD to SBA that people could 
tap into, depending on what happened. So we had a 90 percent 
success rate, but even after 2018, a lot more shut down because 
it just got harder to, you know, sustain.
    Senator Ernst. Okay. And then, Ms. Shimkat, now Jason was 
able to get back on his feet, utilizing some of these different 
programs and tools. So what barriers would folks face where 
they would not be able to receive assistance through those 
programs, and reopen their businesses?
    Ms. Shimkat. Some of the barriers that we have seen is, 
specifically even with a flood, it just keeps happening. And 
with the inability to know when the end is, and to try to 
recover, you lose hope. When you do all this clean-up, you 
spend this money, of your own money to clean up, because you 
cannot wait many times. The inventory could get ruined. You 
need to make sure that you are also providing for your 
employees.
    So the clean-up and then the rural aspect. In many of those 
rurals--Hamburg, Pacific Junction--you had folks that lost 
their homes, their employees lost their homes, and those were 
folks that were also buying from those local small businesses, 
the mom-and-pop stores, those Main Street businesses.
    And then the third part, as a clean-up rule, and then to 
the employees, we have very low unemployment in the State, 
which is a great thing, but it also can be a barrier as well 
for these small businesses. When the Missouri went over its 
banks and we lost Interstate 29, we lost Highway 34, we lost a 
lot of employees. There are a lot of employees that go across 
the State there, where maybe they worked in one and lived in 
another. What we ran into then is the commute time goes from 
five minutes to an hour and a half. And maybe in larger 
communities, you know, the Coast, that is not a big deal, but 
it is when they can find another job closer to where they are 
for about the same pay, with a five-minute commute. So they 
struggled then, as well, keeping those employees. Those are 
some of the challenges.
    Senator Ernst. I understand. And so then they would make 
that choice not to reopen their business and perhaps seek other 
employment elsewhere.
    Ms. Shimkat. Absolutely.
    Chairman Rubio. Okay. Thank you. And Ms. Barnes, did you 
have any thoughts on that?
    Ms. Barnes. Absolutely. I think sometimes we tend to start 
from the time that the disaster happens and look at all the 
things that are going to make it challenging for the business 
to come back and reopen, when what we really need to do is take 
a step back and look at sort of the situation with small 
businesses.
    First of all, most small businesses in this country are 
tiny. They are under 20 employees, or 10 employees, or less. 
And they are particularly vulnerable to disasters because they 
have small profit margins, they lack revenue diversity, and 
they cannot sustain extended business interruption.
    Small businesses lack adaptive business management models, 
and I want to be very careful about that, because I think small 
businesses are really incredible in terms of adapting as 
neighborhoods change and things change over time. But when 
there is a catastrophic event and something happens, it is 
particularly hard to immediately adapt your business model when 
you do not know who is coming back, what customers are going to 
be around, and that sort of thing.
    They tend to be uninsured and they tend to depend on 
generating revenues from customers and clients who have also 
been impacted by the businesses.
    All of these things are amplified then, when there is a 
disaster. And so starting the process of recovery from the time 
of the disaster is almost too late, because what we really need 
to be thinking about is how do we help them prior to the 
disaster, really build that capacity in anticipation that there 
probably will be a market shock or a disaster at some point.
    Senator Ernst. Very good. Well, thank you very much. I am 
out of time but I think we will have time to bounce back and 
forth.
    Senator Cardin.
    Senator Cardin. Well, thank you very much.
    Mr. Barnes, you defy the odds, first, to survive a flood, 
being in business for such a short period of time, not having 
any cash to deal with that, not knowing what to do next, 
because you had never thought you would have to go to through 
this. You were still on a learning curve being a business 
owner. And then 20 months later, to go through a second 
experience.
    But in the second experience, you already understood how to 
keep a business open, because you went through it the first 
time. And it seems to me the SBDC, the Small Business 
Development Center, really was your lifesaver, really was your 
lifeline to understand how you could stay in business.
    That was exactly what we intended when we passed the RISE 
Act, to have help on the ground that understood the community 
and had the confidence of the community, that could be there on 
a continuing basis.
    So I really do appreciate your courage. I was on the ground 
and saw the devastation, and I must tell you, the courage of 
the shop owners on Main Street is unbelievable, because it was 
a frightening situation after the first, and the second was 
worse than the first. So good work.
    Mr. Barnes. Thank you.
    Senator Cardin. Mrs. Barnes, you are reinforcing Senator 
Hawley's point about grants, which is interesting. We had not 
really given that a lot of attention, because SBA does not have 
the capacity right now to deal with how they would deal with 
grants. But it is something we should consider, since there are 
grants available through HUD. And that takes a long time and it 
does not really work to keep you in business. So it is an area 
that we do have a gap that we really need to concentrate on.
    You did mention, though, the CDFIs. How could we enhance 
their ability to help us in a disaster?
    Ms. Barnes. Well, CDFI's are a very interesting 
organization, and I do want to also broaden it to the idea of 
community banks and community development, credit unions, 
because I believe that there are a lot of organizations that 
are on the ground that have the capacity to make financial 
transactions--that is what they do--that can be activated if 
they are incentivized to do so.
    I worked for a CDFI after 9/11 and after Katrina, and what 
we were able to do, as an organization, was pull together 
resources. So we identified the Federal resources that were 
available, we looked to philanthropy, and we really started to 
put together a comprehensive program, which is really, I think, 
what is most needed, where you have grants, loans, technical 
assistance, and such.
    In New Orleans, after Katrina, we relied on the SBDC to 
partner with us. So we operated a program for fishermen, and we 
had a Fisheries Assistance Center. We had the SBDC sitting in 
our office doing intake with the fishermen.
    We actually, by the time of the BP oil spill, SBA was 
sitting in our office as well, because we talked to SBA and we 
said we have vulnerable populations, and this is the thing that 
CDFIs know about. They know about their community and they know 
about the population in their community, so they know how to 
think about the services.
    And so, basically, we were able to sort of aggregate all 
these services under one roof. Everybody had different 
resources that they were using, right. We were not necessarily 
pooling resources. But we were able to, through the smart 
intake of the SBDCs, and then referrals that we were able to 
make to other resources, grants that we had through HUD CDBG, 
we were able to really activate a very strong program.
    Senator Cardin. And I think Mr. Barnes would agree that the 
partnerships that were available in Howard County, in Ellicott 
City, the County Exec was incredibly open to all the county 
resources, that you had the reinforcement of community 
organizations. You had neighbors helping neighbors. All of that 
was coordinated through the county and State, with the Federal 
partners, and it made a real difference with the confidence 
level to get back into business.
    Mr. Barnes. Oh yeah. The 2016 flood was--you know, the 
difference between 2016 and 2018, you know, 2018 took the wind 
out of a lot of stuff. But definitely the 2016, all the 
resources and everything were set up and it made a huge 
difference. Howard County, I always said, was the petri dish of 
how to survive a flood the best way possible, between the SBDC, 
the SBA, FEMA was there. I mean, the Disaster Center was just a 
wealth of knowledge and resources to get everyone back up and 
running.
    I think after the 2016 flood they had a 90 percent 
retention rate. That is huge. And I think only two businesses 
went under completely.
    Senator Cardin. Right. A couple relocated, but you are 
correct. It was a very high percentage that stayed in business 
after the flood.
    Mr. Barnes. Yeah. It was unheard of numbers after a 
disaster.
    Senator Cardin. Thank you.
    Senator Ernst. Yes, and Ms. Shimkat, we have had a good 
discussion about the partnerships that exist out there, and 
from you I know that the work that you and your colleagues at 
the Iowa SBDC have done in helping Iowans recover. I have heard 
a lot of those stories.
    And as you and our other panelists have pointed out, the 
SBDC counselors are not only serving as mentors to those that 
are going through a very stressful experience and helping them 
in navigating government resources, but you are all the 
volunteers on the ground that are helping the small businesses 
actually clean up their properties, whatever needs to be done.
    We know that you work in tandem with SBA and their Disaster 
Field Office. Can you go ahead and walk us through your work 
together and what resources, if any, SBA does provide to you to 
aid communities with their disaster recovery.
    Ms. Shimkat. When a disaster happens--and every disaster is 
a little different--let's say a tornado. When a tornado comes 
through, the first thing we do is we get one of our folks over 
there immediately, on site, with the local people. And in Iowa 
we are already partnering with everyone, so many times it is a 
quick phone call right after an events happens, so we can get 
started.
    In this most recent instance, it was a great example of 
they reached out to us. We already were there. We were reaching 
out to all the economic developers, and they said, ``Where 
should we locate? Help us get those names.'' And I thought that 
was excellent because we were able to get them where the core 
offices needed to be, where, ``Hey, here are some ideas. Here 
are some people to reach out to immediately.'' That was very 
beneficial.
    When the head of Disaster Operations West, Tonya Garfield, 
came to town the first time, she reached out, or had her team 
reach out, and they said, ``We need to get together. Why don't 
you come with us as we tour as well.'' And then we could add, 
``Hey, here are some things we are running into,'' and then 
they could also be that arm to get those services immediately 
where they needed to go.
    I was very impressed. I was around in 2008, as we were just 
kind of starting down the road of some of these things. So I 
have seen a huge difference in what is working. I know that 
puts more pressure on them, the timetable to get things more 
quickly.
    The other part is they were also in constant contact. They 
also made sure that they were available at every town hall 
meeting, and if there was somebody that maybe was upset, I 
instantly got a phone call from their lead person here in the 
State, and said, ``Hey, get somebody over to this person right 
away. Let us know how we can help.'' So that was another way 
too.
    One of the questions you asked earlier of SBA was how can 
we get the information out. Sometimes people may not be ready 
to hear when the disaster is so overwhelming, and by repeating 
the message, and repeating ``here is who is available,'' that 
is key. And then also having all of the partners understand 
there are no silos here. ``Hey, you know what? You are the one 
that can help them better. Let's get you over there.'' That has 
been very, very beneficial, that we can really reach out 
quickly and handle problems efficiently.
    Senator Ernst. That is very good and very helpful. And I 
appreciate that. It is important that we are sharing that word 
back and forth between various agencies and communities to make 
sure that we are getting the right people to the right 
organizations.
    Ms. Shimkat. Absolutely.
    Senator Ernst. So thank you.
    I am going to focus a little bit on our farmers, and we do 
have some great farmers in Maryland as well.
    Senator Cardin. Absolutely.
    Senator Ernst. In your testimony, Ms. Shimkat, you 
discussed that designed disaster accounted for 9.2 percent of 
the total U.S. market value of agricultural products in 2017. 
Can you provide insight on how our farmers are recovering and 
how can Congress assist to expedite that recovery?
    Ms. Shimkat. Absolutely. One thing, if I may add, when I 
first started bringing up that the egg and the business side 
are interconnected, people were a little confused at first. But 
I reached out to Secretary Naig, and some of the flood damage--
1.9 million bushels of corn lost, 482,000 bushels of soybeans 
lost, and that is just what we have so far. We have the bins, 
that as the moisture got into those bins and the bins expanded, 
the corn expanded, and all of that lost. So you are looking at 
the 2018 crops that were in the bins lost; 2019--many of them 
have not gotten in the fields, so now the 2019 crop is lost. 
And if we cannot get the debris cleaned out of those fields, 
the 2020 is going to be lost.
    So helping with the lost grain that was stored is 
tremendous. Also, being able to look at the clean-up side, and 
if there are recovery loans that they more so fit what 
traditional loans for the agricultural industry are. They are 
the seasonal side. Here is when they are given. Here is when we 
can follow up with them.
    As far as the payments, deferred payments. And then also, 
some other things that we are looking at is you have many of 
the business owners are also farmers at the same time, and 
looking at if there could be, you know, tax deductions or tax 
credits when it comes to disaster, that can be applied to 
current or even, over an extended period of time, future tax 
years as well.
    Senator Ernst. That is fantastic information, because 
oftentimes we do not think about the farmers. We think about, 
you know, businesses and Main Street. But we have to understand 
there are other types of businesses that exist out there, 
farming being one of those.
    Senator Cardin.
    Senator Cardin. I am going to sort of wrap up for this, 
because we do have some votes that are on right now. I want to 
thank all three of you.
    Ms. Barnes, I want to just underscore the point you said 
about adaptation and resiliency. I think that is very 
important, that before there is a disaster you get as much 
preparation as possible, including flood insurance and 
information about that.
    So as we look at information that is made available through 
the SBA generally, there should be more preparation for the 
unexpected, because, unfortunately, it happens. So I think that 
was a good point and I think it is something else that we need 
to take a look at as we move towards the reauthorization of 
these programs.
    But I want to thank all three of you for your testimony, 
and we really do look forward to strengthening these tools, and 
we are proud of the work that is done at the SBA.
    Senator Ernst. Thank you so much, Ranking Member Cardin, 
and I do appreciate our distinguished panel for being here 
today and sharing your experiences and your expertise. It is 
imperative that this committee stays focused on making sure 
that the Small Business Administration is supporting small 
businesses and our individuals in a timely and efficient manner 
as they recover after the devastation of a disaster.
    So the hearing record will stay open for two weeks, and any 
statements or questions for the record should be submitted by 
Wednesday, July 3rd, at 5 p.m.
    Again, our thanks to the panelists, and with that this 
hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:08 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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