    [Senate Hearing 116-98]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                             S. Hrg. 116-98

                      SOLUTIONS TO IMPROVE FEDERAL HIRING

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                                SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                   REGULATORY AFFAIRS AND FEDERAL MANAGEMENT

                                     of the

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                             HOMELAND SECURITY AND
                              GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                         ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                 JULY 30, 2019

                                   __________

                      Available via http://www.govinfo.gov

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security
                            and Governmental Affairs

     [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                 ______

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
     37-459 PDF          WASHINGTON : 2019

            COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

                        RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin, Chairman
    ROB PORTMAN, Ohio                    GARY C. PETERS, Michigan
    RAND PAUL, Kentucky                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware
    JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma             MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire
    MITT ROMNEY, Utah                    KAMALA D. HARRIS, California
    RICK SCOTT, Florida                  KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona
    MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming             JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
    JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri

                    Gabrielle D'Adamo Singer, Staff Director
                   David M. Weinberg, Minority Staff Director
                   Zachary I. Schram, Minority Chief Counsel
                         Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
                         Thomas J. Spino, Hearing Clerk

           SUBCOMMITTEE ON REGULATORY AFFAIRS AND FEDERAL MANAGEMENT

                       JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma, Chairman
    ROB PORTMAN, Ohio                    KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona
    MITT ROMNEY, Utah                    THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware
    RICK SCOTT, Florida                  JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
    MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming
                         Chris J. White, Staff Director
                         James D. Mann, Senior Counsel
                    Eric A. Bursch, Minority Staff Director
                  Jackie A. Maffucci, Minority Policy Advisor
             Mallory B. Nersesian, Subcommittee and Document Clerk

                                C O N T E N T S

                                     ------
    Opening statement:
                                                                       Page
        Senator Lankford.............................................     1
        Senator Sinema...............................................     1
        Senator Rosen................................................    12
        Senator Carper...............................................    14
    Prepared statement:
        Senator Lankford.............................................    29
        Senator Sinema...............................................    31

                                   WITNESSES
                             Tuesday, July 30, 2019

    Yvonne D. Jones, Director, Strategic Issues Team, U.S. Government
      Accountability Office..........................................     3
    Angela Bailey, Chief Human Capital Officer, U.S. Department of
      Homeland Security..............................................     4
    Daniel R. Sitterly, Assistant Secretary for Human Resources and
      Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs............     6

                         Alphabetical List of Witnesses

    Bailey, Angela:
        Testimony....................................................     4
        Prepared statement...........................................    51
    Jones, Yvonne D.:
        Testimony....................................................     3
        Prepared statement...........................................    33
    Sitterly, Daniel R.:
        Testimony....................................................     6
        Prepared statement...........................................    56

                                    APPENDIX

    Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record:
        Ms. Jones....................................................    66
        Ms. Bailey...................................................    73
        Mr. Sitterly.................................................    88

                      SOLUTIONS TO IMPROVE FEDERAL HIRING

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, JULY 30, 2019

                                     U.S. Senate,
                            Subcommittee on Regulatory,
                          Affairs and Federal Management,
                        of the Committee on Homeland Security
                                      and Governmental Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.m., in
    room 342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. James Lankford,
    Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Lankford, Scott, Sinema, Carper, and
    Rosen.

                OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD\1\

        Senator Lankford. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to
    today's Subcommittee hearing titled ``Solutions to Improve
    Federal Hiring.'' We are here today to address the hiring
    crisis in the Federal Government. It takes too long to fill
    vacancies, causing agencies to miss out on top talent. I am
    sure that is a shock to all the people that are at this front
    table. They have never heard that before.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Lankford appears in the
    Appendix on page 29.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        This is not a new problem. It is a universal problem, and
    it is growing, unfortunately, and as we talk about it we do not
    seem to be solving it. So today is going to be focused a lot on
    solutions, how we can get the best and brightest candidates,
    and how they will not have to wait around for 3 or 4 months to
    be able to actually get into the process, and how we can help
    human resources (HR) folks, as well, address the issues with
    the best possible hiring authorities that they may need at that
    spot.
        So let me defer to my Ranking Member, Senator Sinema, for
    her opening statement.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SINEMA

        Senator Sinema. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate you
    holding today's hearing with these witnesses.
        Improving Federal hiring and retention is an important
    topic, and the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) and the
    Department of Homeland Security (DHS) play critical roles in
    taking care of Arizona veterans and protecting our
    constituents. The first step toward accomplishing this mission
    is having the right workforce.
        I have a longer statement that I will submit for the
    record.\1\ I apologize, I may need to leave early to attend a
    signing ceremony at the White House, but I want to thank all
    our witnesses for being here today and I look forward to
    today's conversation.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Sinema appears in the
    Appendix on page 31.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Senator Lankford. Thank you. We also have votes going on at
    2:45, and so there are a few things happening this afternoon,
    but we want to make sure that we get as many things as possible
    on the record as quickly as we can. So at this time I want to
    proceed with the testimony from our witnesses, because that is
    why we came, to be able to go through this.
        Yvonne Jones is the Director of Strategic Issues Team for
    the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO), where she
    manages teams analyzing Federal Government human capital
    issues. Prior to joining GAO in 2003, Ms. Jones worked at the
    World Bank where she led the implementation and evaluation of
    economic development projects in the education, commercial,
    debt reduction, and finance sectors. Thank you for being here.
        Angela Bailey is the Chief Human Capital Officer (CHCO) at
    the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, where she has served
    since January 2016. Prior to DHS, Ms. Bailey worked at Office
    of Personnel Management (OPM) as the Chief Operating Officer
    (COO), Deputy Associate Director for Recruitment and Hiring,
    and the Chief Human Capital Officer. Thank you, as well, for
    your experience and for being here.
        Dan Sitterly is the Assistant Secretary for Human Resources
    and Administration at the Department of Veterans Affairs, a
    post he has held since January, so you are the long-term
    veteran of the group here. Prior to joining the VA, Mr.
    Sitterly served as the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of
    the Air Force for Manpower and Reserve Affairs. He began his
    career in the Air Force as an enlisted member in 1976. Thanks
    very much for that service.
        It is our tradition in this Subcommittee to swear in our
    witnesses, so if you would not mind standing, please, and raise
    your right hand.
        Do you swear the testimony you are about to give before
    this Subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
    nothing but the truth, so help you, God?
        Ms. Jones. I do.
        Ms. Bailey. I do.
        Mr. Sitterly. I do.
        Senator Lankford. Thank you. You may be seated. Let the
    record reflect all the witnesses answered in the affirmative.
        We are using a timing device, just to be able to help
    track. We will give you about 5 minutes for oral testimony, if
    you can stick as close to that as you possibly can. There is a
    wonderful button that says ``talk'' in front of you, and you
    push it when it is your turn to talk, because that will turn
    that microphone on. We are very grateful to receive your
    testimony.
        Ms. Jones, you are first.

      TESTIMONY OF YVONNE D. JONES,\1\ DIRECTOR, STRATEGIC ISSUES
              TEAM, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

        Ms. Jones. Thank you. Chairman Lankford, Ranking Member
    Sinema, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the
    opportunity today to discuss what can be done to close mission-
    critical skills gaps and to improve Federal hiring. As we have
    long reported, strategic human capital management plays a
    critical role in maximizing the government's performance and
    assuring its accountability to Congress and to the Nation.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Jones appears in the Appendix on
    page 33.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The Federal Government faces long-standing challenges in
    strategically managing its workforce. For that reason,
    strategic human capital management has been a GAO high-risk
    area since 2001. Since then, Congress, the Office of Personnel
    Management, and some agencies have made progress toward
    addressing these challenges.
        Skills gaps caused by insufficient number of staff with
    critical skills and inadequate workforce planning contributed
    to adding strategic human capital management to the high-risk
    list. Skills gaps affect individual agencies but also cut
    across the entire Federal workforce in areas such a
    cybersecurity and providing health care.
        Insufficient numbers of staff with critical skills can also
    be due to staff retirements, and if not carefully managed,
    anticipated retirements can widen skills gaps or open new ones.
    GAO analysis has shown that more than 31 percent of Federal
    employees on board at the end of fiscal year (FY) 2017 would be
    eligible to retire in the next 5 years.
        Agencies' missions have evolved and employees' expectations
    of work and the workplace are changing. Further, an
    increasingly volatile world makes understanding and responding
    to evolving issues and trends essential. In March 2019, we
    reported on key talent management strategies that can help
    agencies better manage the workforce. Here are some selected
    practices we identified related to recruiting, hiring, and
    engaging the Federal workforce.
        One, recruit continuously and start the hiring process
    early in the school year. Hiring students is critical to
    ensuring that agencies have a range of experience levels for
    succession planning and providing a talent pipeline. Agencies
    facing early fiscal year funding uncertainties can overcome
    this timing challenge by recruiting continuously and starting
    hiring processes early in the school year.
        Two, write user-friendly vacancy announcements. We have
    found that some Federal job announcements were unclear to
    applicants and delayed hiring. When hiring managers partner
    with human resource staff, agencies can develop more effective
    vacancy announcements.
        Three, strategically leverage available hiring and pay
    flexibilities. To help ensure agencies have the talent they
    need, they should explore all existing hiring authorities. A
    variety of special pay authorities can help agencies compete
    for top talent. The GAO has found that agencies use them for
    only a small number of employees.
        Four, encourage rotations and other mobility opportunities.
    Agency chief human capital officers have said that in some
    cases lateral mobility opportunities such as rotations and
    opportunities to gain experience in other sectors can help
    employees gain new skills more cost-effectively than training,
    particularly for rapidly changing skill sets. However, few
    employees move horizontally because managers are sometimes
    reluctant to offer opportunities that may result in employee
    transfers.
        In conclusion, OPM has instituted numerous efforts to
    assist agencies in addressing mission-critical skills gaps
    within their workforces. However, as of December 2018, OPM had
    not fully implemented 29 of our recommendations since 2012,
    relating to this high-risk area. We will continue to monitor
    OPM's efforts to implement our recommendations.
        Finally, we note that without better talent management
    strategies the Federal Government's ability to address the
    complex challenges facing the country may be compromised.
        Chairman Lankford, Ranking Member Sinema, this completes my
    prepared statement. I would be pleased to respond to any
    questions you may have at this time.
        Senator Lankford. Thank you, Ms. Jones. Ms. Bailey.

      TESTIMONY OF ANGELA BAILEY,\1\ CHIEF HUMAN CAPITAL OFFICER,
                  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

        Ms. Bailey. Chairman Lankford, Ranking Member Sinema, and
    distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the
    opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the
    Department of Homeland Security's efforts on hiring and
    retention.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Bailey appears in the Appendix on
    page 51.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        DHS employees are on the front lines, executing our mission
    each and every day, performing extremely difficult work under
    some of the most challenging circumstances and conditions. At
    the same time, our employees are performing these incredibly
    important duties, the approximately 240,000 men and women that
    make up the Department worry about the same things that all
    Americans worry about, including student loan debt, making it
    on time to pick up their children from daycare or school, and
    missing yet another family vacation due to work obligations.
        During the partial shutdown earlier this year, 86 percent
    of the DHS workforce continued to work without pay, and most of
    those employees were our frontline law enforcement officers and
    agents who face danger each and every day. They put on their
    uniforms, drove long distances in some cases, came to work, and
    performed their duties to the best of their abilities, despite
    concerns about pay, child care, transportation, and other
    stresses.
        A little-known fact and often overlooked statistic in the
    Federal Employee Viewpoint Survey (FEVS) results is that 94
    percent of DHS employees said that they were willing to put in
    extra effort to get the job done, and almost 90 percent said
    that the work they do is important.
        Given their dedication and all that DHS employees face, my
    job is to help DHS achieve its mission by keying in on two very
    important areas--hiring and retention. Our focus in both areas
    is forward-leaning.
        First, we begin with workforce planning, determining the
    types of skills we need, not only for today but 5 to 10 years
    from now as well. Next, we have devised a multi-pronged
    recruiting strategy that takes into account how and where best
    to ``buy or build'' the talent we need, drawing on all segments
    of society. This is coupled with an innovative and streamlined
    hiring process that has seen a 34 percent reduction in time-to-
    hire across DHS, down to an average of 107 days.
        The reason these strategies are so important is that by
    ensuring our positions are filled with the right leaders and
    technically skilled and competent personnel, we can drive down
    overtime, shorten deployments, and create a better work-life
    balance for our employees--all of which our employees have told
    us through the FEVS and other focus groups they desire.
        Our hiring strategies actually help us retain our talented
    workforce. However, filling positions is not enough to retain
    our employees. We also need to provide them with the tools
    necessary to deal with all that the job and life throws their
    way.
        As a result, we have put a special emphasis on taking care
    of our employees and their families as the cornerstone of our
    retention strategy. Our initiatives include programs and
    training to assist with general stress, dependent care,
    personal relationships, mental health, and financial concerns.
        These programs, coupled with our traditional retention
    strategies, such as cyber retention pay, special salary rates,
    student loan repayments, child care subsidies, alternative work
    schedules, and employee engagement help round out the
    overarching DHS retention strategy.
        Despite these efforts, there is always more that can be
    done. One way for Congress to help us is to champion our
    legislative proposal, the Department of Homeland Security
    Enhanced Hiring Act. DHS seeks to use this authority in an
    effort to streamline and simplify the agency's hiring
    authorities in a manner that ensures the Department is able to
    expeditiously hire the best-qualified candidates for mission-
    critical positions and sustain our exemplary record of hiring
    veterans. I respectfully request that Congress expeditiously
    take up and pass our legislation.
        I cannot stress enough the commitment of DHS employees to
    the mission and the difficult nature of their work. My goal is
    to do everything we can to lessen the burden on our employees
    and retain our highly-skilled, mission-driven workforce. We
    will continue to identify efficiencies and retention
    initiatives and implement them smartly across the Department.
        Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today. The
    Department would not be successful without your support and the
    support of our brave men and women who sacrifice each day to
    make our country safe.
        I look forward to your questions.
        Senator Lankford. Thank you. We look forward to asking you
    questions, as a matter of fact.
        Mr. Sitterly.

      TESTIMONY OF DANIEL R. SITTERLY,\1\ ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR
    HUMAN RESOURCES AND ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS
                                AFFAIRS

        Mr. Sitterly. Chairman Lankford, Ranking Member Sinema,
    Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to
    discuss the Department of Veterans Affairs' view on ways to
    modernize the hiring process and to retain our ability to be a
    competitive employer in the health care industry. As a 34-year
    veteran of the United States Air Force (USAF) I have both a
    personal and a professional interest in ensuring we get this
    right at the VA.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Sitterly appears in the Appendix
    on page 56.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        As the operator of the largest integrated health care
    delivery system in America, VA successfully attracts and
    retains high-quality talent, and VA's overall workforce has
    continue to grow. This growth is directly responsive to an
    increased demand for services, which is the result of improved
    access, reduced wait times, improved quality, enhanced veteran
    satisfaction, and overall mission growth.
        Most of the additional staffing in the VA has been in the
    clinical occupations. VA appreciate the work Congress has done
    to provide flexibilities to support the recruitment and
    retention of talent to care for our Nation's veterans. That
    said, VA still contends with challenges presented by the
    complexities of multiple pay and personnel systems, and
    compounded by the changes in market play allowed in Title 38.
        As health care demand increases, and shortages of health
    care workers grow, private-sector employers are quick to adjust
    to changes in local labor markets and modify starting salaries
    and total compensation packages to attract top talent. While VA
    recruits employees and applicants who are willing to accept
    lower compensation to be a part of an organization with such a
    noble mission, VA faces challenges in our ability to attract
    and then retain quality health care professionals.
        Recruitment and retention efforts for physicians are often
    challenged by the pay limitations in statute. For example, the
    San Francisco Medical Center is in one of the highest cost-of-
    living markets. Highly specialized surgeons in that market
    receive more than $500,000 in compensation, which the VA salary
    cannot match.
        Despite challenges, VA employs a variety of tools to
    attract and retain quality talent. These tools include a
    powerful mission of service to veterans and their families, a
    robust training pipeline for a majority of our Nation's
    physicians, strong employee engagement, direct hiring
    authorities, and strategic workforce planning for hard-to-fill
    occupations and medical center directors. VA strategically
    allocates monetary incentives to close skill gaps and provide
    greater flexibility in the recruitment, relocation, and
    retention--the three R's--of highly qualified VA professionals.
    In fiscal year 2018, VA spent more than $50 million on these
    incentives.
        VA joined efforts with the Department of Defense (DOD) to
    recruit transitioning service members. We launched a direct
    marketing campaign to target military medical professionals
    currently transitioning out of the military. VA has also
    partnered with the Department of Defense to hire military
    spouses through the Military Spouse Employment Partnership. We
    made significant progress in filling medical center director
    positions through a vigorous national recruitment strategy.
        Outcomes show that the VA is on the right track. Veterans
    are well served and are receiving the same or better care at VA
    medical centers than patients at private sector hospitals.
    Veterans who are admitted for heart attacks, severe chronic
    lung disease, heart failure, and pneumonia have a better chance
    of survival beyond 30 days after discharge from a VA hospital
    than non-VA hospitals.
        According to a study in the Journal of the American Medical
    Association, VA average wait times are shorter than those in
    private sector for primary care. VA recently reached a
    telehealth milestone, achieving more than one million video
    telehealth visits last year. At the same time, almost 90
    percent of the 1.5 million veterans surveyed said they trust
    the VA.
        As one of the top ten largest employers within the Federal
    Government, VA continues to enhance employee engagement. In
    April, Secretary Wilkie approved VA's first-ever employee
    engagement enterprise-wide plan which emphasize the principles
    of servant leadership, in which leaders are encouraged to seek
    feedback year-round.
        As I like to say, ``happy, engaged, empowered employees
    make for a positive veteran experience, and also helps mightily
    with retention.''
        We at the VA also appreciate Congress' continued support to
    recruit, hire, and retain a high-quality workforce that
    provides the best possible care to veterans. The competition
    for talent in the health care industry is increasingly
    competitive. Shortages abound nationwide for both physicians
    and nurses, and those shortages are projected to increase.
        Private hospitals and medical schools use innovative and
    progressive solutions to address recruitment and retention
    challenges. We must be creative in our approach to recruiting
    and retaining. We at the VA want to be the leaders, or be very
    fast followers, of the best human capital practices in the
    Federal Government and the health care industry.
        We look forward to working with the Committee on
    opportunities to enhance VA's ability to attract top talent. I
    am prepared to respond to any questions you may have. Thank
    you.
        Senator Lankford. Thank you. I want to defer to Senator
    Sinema for first questions.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you
    again for being here.
        I want to start with a global question and then ask a
    couple of more specific questions for each of our agency
    witnesses.
        Human capital management has been listed on the GAO high-
    risk list since 2001, and over that time GAO has made many good
    recommendations on how agencies can improve. But a lot of the
    feedback I have received on this issue over the years is that
    hiring and retention challenges are often cultural. In order to
    fix the problem, leadership at the agency must want to fix it
    and make improvements a priority.
        For our DHS and VA witnesses today, Ms. Bailey and Mr.
    Sitterly, what steps can you point to that show your agency is
    making better human capital management improvements a priority?
        Mr. Sitterly. I will take that first, Senator. Thank you
    for the question. I appreciate it.
        We are doing lots of things in using the authorities that
    Congress has given us. Recruiting is a challenge because of the
    shortages. We have partnered with HBCUs to increase the number
    of interns that we bring in. We have robust programs across all
    of the intern programs.
        We have 122,000 students and residents that come through
    our VA medical centers every year. We increased the behavioral
    health specialists that we have in the VA by a net 1,000 this
    past year, by targeting specifically the interns, the students,
    and the residents that we have in our facilities.
        We also have worked to increase the talent of our HR
    professionals. I will tell you, ma'am, with all due candor,
    that you have been more than gracious with the authorities that
    you have given the Federal Government for hiring, but they are
    really, really difficult. When I worked at the Department of
    Defense I thought Title 5, Title 10, Title 38 were very
    difficult to manage with part-time, full-time, Reserve, and
    Guard personnel. It is even more complicated in the VA between
    Title 5, Title 38, hybrid Title 38. I recently went to my own
    HR training seminar to learn how to do pay-setting for nurses.
    It took me an entire day, and I have been doing HR for over 40
    years.
        We are using a lot of the authorities to include the
    education debt reduction program. We have scholarship programs.
    One thing that I would ask you to help us with, with the
    national shortage, ma'am, is to be able to grow our own VA
    doctors, using the Department of Defense's Uniformed Services
    University (USU). We, in the Air Force, don't go to the
    airlines to hire fighter pilots. We train fighter pilots.
        We should not, in the VA, go to private industry to hire
    doctors. We should create our own doctors. And so we are using
    the authorities that you have given us to bring those doctors
    on, and then to retain the doctors, and then we would like to
    attempt to grow our own as well.
        Ms. Bailey. Thank you. For starters, within DHS, I think
    one of the main things that we have done, from the beginning,
    is really just stopped admiring the problem and actually
    started talking about solutions. We see this as a team sport,
    the entire leadership team along with the HR specialists, the
    personnel security specialists, our medical professionals, as
    well as our hiring managers. We come together as one team to
    actually approach what the issues are.
        A few years ago we actually embarked on expediting the
    temporary job offer process because you hear all the time that
    we cannot make job offers on the spot. As a department, we have
    made close to 1,800 tentative job offers on the spot. By
    bringing the power of all of DHS together and making sure that
    we can vet people, interview people, and do everything at one
    time, we have been able to make quite a few tenative job offers
    that is one way.
        The second thing that we have done is we have taken a look
    at all the data that we have. We have analyzed all that data.
    We know exactly where we have our recruiting events, exactly
    how much it costs to go to those recruiting events, whether or
    not there is a return on investment for the recruiting events.
    Then we also do things like shared certificates. Meaning if we
    put out a job announcement for one location or one component,
    we are actually able to share those certificates across all the
    different components so that we can make use of that and not
    basically throw away qualified candidates.
        This is just a smattering of examples of some of the things
    that we have done. In addition, we have looked at the entire
    hiring process. We break it down by the different components.
    We have rearranged the hiring process. We have cut out certain
    steps. We have looked at the way we do our polygraphs. We have
    looked at the way we do our background investigations. As a
    result of that, we have seen, as I said earlier, a 34 percent
    reduction in our time to hire.
        It is critically important that this is viewed as a team
    sport and it is not just an HR issue or an HR problem. As a
    result we are starting to make significant progress. Last year,
    as an example, was the first time in 6 years that we have ended
    the year with more Border Patrol agents than we have lost. That
    is all attributed to having everyone at the time exploring the
    issues and just tackling them one at a time.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you. My next question is for Mr.
    Sitterly. My staff and I have been in continual contact with
    our Arizona VA medical centers, and hiring challenges continue
    to be a focus of our conversations.
        One of the specific challenges that the Northern Arizona VA
    Medical Center runs into is an inability to hire housekeeping
    staff. Housekeeping staff at a VA medical center have critical
    functions, such as cleaning and sanitizing operating rooms and
    patient rooms, but they are categorized and paid at the same
    level that housekeeping staff maintaining an office building
    are. And our veteran service organization partners brought to
    my attention that VA downgraded the General Schedule (GS) level
    for these and 18 other Title 5 positions a few years ago.
        So my question is twofold. How do we fix the clear
    discrepancy with operational staff such as housekeepers, and
    why did the VA choose to downgrade these positions?
        Mr. Sitterly. Thank you for that question, Senator. I, too,
    as my first 6 months at the VA, have traveled around and hear
    that question quite often. I am happy to report, in part,
    thanks to Dr. Jones' GAO report that she did recently, we have
    been addressing that with OPM and they were willing to look at
    our housekeepers and to put them into a different authority to
    work with us to look at different pay scales and such. So we
    are making progress in that front.
        I cannot answer why the classification was changed and they
    were downgraded, but I will tell you that it is something very
    important to us--maintaining the satisfaction, the safety, and
    the security of our hospitals, and we will continue to address
    that.
        Senator Sinema. I want to continue talking about the VA. In
    Arizona, the VA health system covers a lot of rural areas. This
    represents an additional challenge to recruiting and retaining
    employees. My office has an outstanding request to VA's Central
    Office to learn more about locum tenens. So how is VA using
    that, and to what degree is or can it help to fill gaps in
    staffing, and is this something that we can talk about now?
        Mr. Sitterly. I am not familiar with it, your outstanding
    request, Senator, but I would be happy to come over to your
    office and have that conversation. We have a lot of different
    ways that we can address the shortages, a lot of different ways
    we are addressing rural medicine as well--telehealth, community
    care, and several other initiatives. I am very happy to come
    over and speak with you on that.
        As a result of one of our recent all-employee surveys we
    discovered that employee satisfaction is highest when we have
    students and residents in our facilities. We do have a few
    facilities where we did not have them, so we will look at
    placing them throughout all of our facilities in an attempt to
    continue to retain those people.
        Our turnover rates within the Veterans Affairs department
    is less than commercial industry, according to the Bureau of
    Labor (BOL). It is less than the Federal Government. Overall,
    once we get the employees we tend to retain those employees.
        However, we do have a very high turnover rate for our food
    service workers and for our housekeepers, because we bring a
    lot of them in at a lower pay rate, and so we will continue to
    address both of those questions, Senator.
        Senator Sinema. I would like to follow up on this
    specifically. Northern Arizona, which is Prescott, is a rural
    community, but the cost of living is actually higher there than
    it is in some of our urban areas because it is so difficult to
    get there. And we have had a very difficult time being able to
    hire and retain highly qualified individuals in remote areas
    such as Northern Arizona.
        Mr. Sitterly. Senator, I would love to transition all of
    our Veterans Health Administration (VHA) employees to Title 38,
    which gives us more authorities to set market pay, as you know.
    We have some of our clinicians who provide direct care in a
    hybrid Title 38. We have roughly a third of our employees in
    Title 5, a third in Title 38, and a third in hybrid 38. So
    every time we have a market pay issue in a particular region we
    have to go to OPM to reset those pay, special salary rates,
    etc.
        Under Title 38, Secretary Wilkie has the authority to do
    that based on the actual market rate, and we have more
    flexibility as things change. In a perfect world, the entire
    VHA would be in Title 38--our clinicians and care providers, if
    you will.
        Senator Sinema. We will follow up on this. This is
    important for us.
        Mr. Sitterly. Thank you, ma'am.
        Senator Sinema. We are also finding that hiring and keeping
    our staffing in rural areas is difficult as it relates to DHS.
    As you know, many of our DHS employees live in very remote and
    rural areas in Arizona. So what programs and tools have you
    identified through DHS that can help address some of these
    hiring and retention challenges in very remote parts of our
    State?
        Ms. Bailey. Yes, Senator. We did some research with regard
    to the rural areas. I think we have close to 9,000 employees
    that are actually located within Arizona and our attrition rate
    within Arizona runs roughly around 6 to 7 percent, which is on
    par with the rest of DHS.
        Some of the things that we look at, from a very tactical
    level, is we actually go in and look to see, because these
    areas are so remote we have spouses that are, in many cases,
    unable to get employed, it takes 2 hours to get to a dentist
    office, etc., so one of the things that we deployed is special
    salary rates.
        We have also deployed retention incentives for individuals
    working in many of those border locations. The third thing we
    have done is created a rotations program, so that we can
    actually give the folks the opportunity to rotate out of those
    particular areas and go into a more urban area in which it is
    not just good for them but it is good for their families as
    well. We have found, by deploying those three things, that it
    is actually helping us keep our attrition down and keep our
    vacancies filled.
        In our rural States, we actually have a 98 percent fill
    rate, if you exclude D.C. And so that is on par with where we
    are with the rest of the Department as well. We are much like
    the VA. Once we get folks into DHS they have a tendency not to
    leave DHS.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you. I could ask questions all day
    but I understand our time is closing in.
        My next question is also for you, Ms. Bailey. Much of the
    DHS workforce in Arizona is going through a challenging time.
    The crisis at our Southern Border has led to long hours and
    difficult conditions, and many of the agents and officers I
    have spoken with have told me about their concern about the
    impact that this period is having on them and their fellow
    employees. Some of these men and women are working up to 16-
    hour shifts a day, multiple days in a row. It is not just in
    Arizona. This is happening everywhere on the border.
        What is it that DHS is doing right now to help the
    workforce get through this challenging surge period, and how
    can we work together to retain this workforce over time?
        Ms. Bailey. That is actually quite a concern for us as
    well. In fact, just a few weeks ago, I was down on the border
    myself. I went to Douglas and Tucson, to both stations, and I
    had the opportunity to meet with our Border Patrol agents as
    well as some of our DHS volunteers that were down there.
        You are absolutely right. The emotional toll this has taken
    on our workforce, you can see it. You can see it in everyone's
    face.
        Some of the things that we have done is we have put a
    concerted effort into employee and family readiness. We are
    investing in mental health strategies. We are investing in
    their personal relationships by delivering training for them,
    not just for the employees but also for their spouses as well.
    We are providing financial literacy programs as well. We are
    also doing what is called mindfulness or resiliency training.
        We are trying to deploy a multitude of things, including
    dependent care, really looking into that as well, because as
    you know, and I say this all the time, our folks cannot say,
    ``Hey, it's 5,'' to the drug cartel. ``I have to go pick up my
    child.'' They do not get the opportunity to do that. As a
    result, we are trying to figure out ways that we can actually
    help them be able to have dependent care where they actually
    need it, or on-demand dependent care.
        It is a concerted effort on our behalf. It is not just a
    headquarters issue. It is actually across all the components
    that are involved in this, in making sure that we address their
    individual needs. We are using peer support, chaplaincy
    programs, anything that we can actually do to help provide them
    the support that they need, both on the job and in their own
    personal lives. Because both of them impact the other quite
    significantly, and we recognize that.
        And so I think that we are on the right path.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for
    holding this hearing, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it.
        Senator Lankford. Thank you. Senator Rosen.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROSEN

        Senator Rosen. Thank you. I appreciate you holding this
    hearing. I appreciate all of your work in streamlining, trying
    to attempt to streamline the behemoth organizations you have,
    in the hiring process. It is always a work in progress.
        I would like to speak a little bit about cybersecurity
    workforce. The GAO has released a report in March of this year
    finding that accurately categorizing information technology
    (IT), cybersecurity, and cyber-related functions is crucial for
    Federal agents to be able to identify critical staffing needs.
    The GAO found that most agencies have likely mischaracterized
    IT and cyber positions, which means they do not have reliable
    information for workforce planning.
        Ms. Jones, maybe can you explain a little bit why and what
    the mischaracterization of the IT positions or cybersecurity
    positions are and why it might be so common across Federal
    agencies?
        Ms. Jones. Thank you, Senator. Yes, I did take a look at
    that. So there were a number of reasons why a number of the
    agencies miscategorized these positions. So our work found that
    actually 10 agencies simply made a mistake in terms of
    characterizing the work roles of people. This is particularly
    in the 2210 IT specialist occupational category.
        Thirteen agencies had not completed validating or defining
    that 2210 position. That is why they miscategorized some of the
    positions. Seven agencies applied their own standards to
    defining these positions. So some of them decided that they
    would not code a position as cybersecurity related if a person
    in that position did no work on cybersecurity for a certain
    percentage of the time. And 12 agencies Stated that OPM
    guidance--they did not feel that OPM guidance was clear on
    whether the 2210 IT management positions should be assigned a
    work role code as compared to the IT specialist position. So
    those are some of the reasons.
        Senator Rosen. You have made recommendations to OPM. Can
    you tell us how that is going, and responding to what your
    recommendations are and what you feel that you might need from
    us, if anything, in order to get these positions characterized
    properly and filled?
        Ms. Jones. Right. Since the report was only issued in
    March, I would not expect that OPM would have made a lot of
    progress since then. But this is an issue with which OPM is
    already familiar, I think, and has been working with agencies.
        I think that OPM would just need to make sure that their
    guidance to the agencies is very clear, and then to be able--if
    there are any other concerns, for example, about positions
    which are both IT-related and cybersecurity related, where
    there seemed to have been some confusion about the work roles,
    that OPM work very carefully with the agencies. Agencies can
    also talk to each other about this. There is a Chief Human
    Capital Officers Council, where when there are problems that
    cross agencies they can develop work groups or task forces to
    help each other.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you. I also want to talk to you a
    little bit about a GAO report that was released today on human
    capital. GAO writes that agencies should leverage existing
    hiring and pay flexibilities in order to fill critical
    vacancies.
        Ms. Jones. Yes.
        Senator Rosen. With so many open positions in important
    areas, like you said, cybersecurity, this makes sense. However,
    we need to balance the need for streamlined hiring practices
    with the importance of maintaining a diverse and talented
    career civil service, where taxpayer funds are spent to hire
    the best qualified, not necessarily the best connected.
        So the concern about giving more latitude in hiring is that
    it can, to a closed system, it really can be very tough when
    the system is closed, where crucial government positions can be
    filled based on who knows who rather than who is the best and
    the brightest, and in that case, diversity suffers.
        I have introduced some bipartisan legislation to address
    some of these things across Federal agencies. We have a Junior
    ROTC Cyber Training Act that is going to prepare high school
    kids, a Cyber Ready Workforce Act, a Building Blocks of STEM
    Act. I am hoping that all of these will come to the floor and
    be passed and this might help.
        In addition to passing that legislation, what can OPM do to
    ensure there is an open, accessible hiring process with access
    to a pipeline of diverse talent, even when agencies use
    flexible hiring authorities to fill critical vacancies?
        Ms. Jones. Well, Senator, we have not found that it was
    necessary to make a tradeoff between having a diverse workforce
    and following all of the statutory obligations for competitive
    hiring and for ensuring that people who are hired have the
    requisite qualifications.
        So a number of things that agencies can do, and of which
    OPM is already aware, they can reach out to a wide range of
    educational institutions that are training students in the
    required skills. So that means, universities, technical
    colleges, all kinds of post-high school institutions. They can
    reach out to career and professional organizations representing
    diverse ethnicities, races, veteran status, disabilities,
    gender. They can identify a wide range of existing hiring
    authorities that can both expedite hiring and make hiring more
    flexible, yet at the same time continuing to follow their
    statutory obligations under a competitive hiring system and
    also choosing people with the right qualifications.
        Once agencies have found these people and hired them, these
    agencies need to make sure they undertake the appropriate
    activities to make them want to stay in the agencies.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you. I see my time is up. I will
    yield. Thank you.
        Senator Sinema [Presiding.] Thank you, Senator Rosen.
    Senator Carper?

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER

        Senator Carper. Yvonne Jones, how are you?
        Ms. Jones. I am fine, sir.
        Senator Carper. We have an Yvonne Jones in Delaware. She is
    wonderful. When I saw your name it brought a smile to my face.
    We are happy to know there are two Yvonne Joneses. But I think
    there is only one Angela Bailey.
        I am going back in time. I am trying to recall. Did you
    start your current job in January 2016?
        Ms. Bailey. I did, sir.
        Senator Carper. OK.
        Ms. Bailey. Yes.
        Senator Carper. Tom Coburn, who was Senator Lankford's
    predecessor, and I worked for a number of years, as you may
    recall, in this Committee with our colleagues to try to respond
    to concerns that were shared with us by Jeh Johnson, who had
    been the Secretary of the Department, and Ali Mayorkas, who was
    the Deputy Secretary. And one of the problems they shared with
    us is they were having a hard time hiring and retaining cyber
    warriors.
        And it sort of reminded me of when I was privileged to
    serve as Governor of Delaware. We used to have folks who were
    IT people, and they were in the department that we now call the
    Department of Technology. But we hired people, trained them,
    and these were pretty junior, and just when they started to get
    pretty good they would be hired away by the private sector and
    we would lose them because they would pay more money. So what
    we tried to do was to pay them more money and change the way we
    took them outside the merit system and created the ability to
    provide the kind of resources for the department and keep those
    folks, rather than just train them and then see them leave for
    bigger and better things.
        I just want to ask if you can give us some feeling of the
    changes that Dr. Coburn and I worked on, in terms of,
    expediting hiring authority for folks who work in--I guess it
    is Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act (CISA) now, to ask if
    DHS needs any additional authorities to further improve cyber
    hiring. How are you doing? Are you using the provisions that
    you inherited, literally, as somebody new on the job, and what
    more do you need?
        Ms. Bailey. Thank you, Senator, and I actually want to
    really thank you for Title 6, which is what you passed to give
    to the Department. We have made tremendous progress with regard
    to Title 6. One of the things that we are doing right now is we
    are actually working with all of our subject matter experts to
    put together exactly what it is that they need from both
    technical and leadership skills. We are building state-of-the-
    art assessments right now, as we speak.
        We have created a brand new portal in which these folks
    will actually be able to apply for these jobs which is unlike
    anything we have seen before. What we have taken what you have
    given us and treated it almost like our ability to do civil
    service reform. So we have looked at everything and completely
    redesigned the entire system.
        We will have a brand new way of recruiting folks, which
    will include actually looking at people and what their skills
    are and what they can bring to the table, instead of announcing
    just a GS, 2210 that nobody knows what that really is. Instead
    we will go out and say DHS is looking for digital forensics.
    Send in your resumes. We will take a look at that. And then we
    will have the ability to match that up against projects or work
    that needs to be done, and then we will place people where the
    work actually is, instead of trying to make them fit into our
    little neat GS system.
        We have looked at the pay. We are going to use market-
    sensitive pay across the board. And so with that we have been
    investing in the different economic surveys so that we will be
    very clear as to what we are going to pay our folks, and it
    will not just be simply based on the former GS system that we
    have today.
        We have looked at all the different ways of compensation.
    We have agreed that we are going to put money into--up to
    probably $40,000--training for these individuals. We are going
    to have the ability to go to Black Hat and some of the
    different conferences and be able to recruit directly and make
    job offers directly to those folks, out of those different
    technical conferences and things like that.
        So we have really dove into this and we are taking full
    advantage of what you gave us. By the spring of 2020, all of
    our regulations should be through the clearance system and we
    should have our first hires within the spring or the summer of
    2020.
        So we are very excited about this. We have full support
    from the leadership, from the top on down. I just had the
    opportunity to brief our acting deputy secretary the other day,
    and he is fully supportive of this. OMB is fully supportive of
    this as well.
        I think what you will find is that you gave us something
    that is just spectacular and we did not waste it. And that is
    what I am really most proud of: we did not just simply dink
    around the edges and add another step or something. We actually
    blew up everything that had to do with the current way of
    recruiting, hiring, and paying folks, and we are just going to
    start from scratch and build a 21st Century hiring system.
        Senator Carper. Well, that is great. It reminds me of the
    parable in the New Testament where the landlord or the boss had
    like three servants. And he gave one of them 10 talents, and
    said, ``Go out and make something out of this,'' or 5 talents.
    He gave another--maybe it was 5 talents--and then he gave
    another one of them 2 talents, and another one 1 talent. And
    the one that got 5 talents went out and created 5 more talents.
    The one that got 2 talents went out and created 2 more. The one
    that got 1 talent did nothing with it. And it sound like you
    have taken the 5 talents and the 2 talents and really done
    something with it. If Tom Coburn were here I think he would
    come out and we would both give you a high five. Thank you.
        Ms. Bailey. We would be more than glad to come up and brief
    you personally on it----
        Senator Carper. Would you be willing to travel to Oklahoma
    where Tom Coburn is now?
        Ms. Bailey. Sure.
        Senator Carper. I am kidding. I will let him know what you
    are doing.
        Ms. Bailey. OK.
        Senator Carper. But good work.
        A real quick question, if I could, for Mr. Sitterly. GAO
    and others have identified critical skills, gaps, as you know,
    in areas such as cybersecurity, which have been talking about,
    auditing, human resources, and procurement, to name just a few.
    I would just ask, how are you working to ensure that individual
    hiring decisions are in line with long-term needs of your
    agency, including tackling those areas identified as critical
    skills gaps? Please. And just briefly, because my time is about
    to expire.
        Mr. Sitterly. Thank you for the question, Senator, and
    thank you for the authorities that you have given us. We are
    using what we call the three R's--recruiting incentives,
    retention incentives, relocation incentives--where we have
    rural areas or hard-to-hire areas. We are using those
    authorities.
        We have scholarships. We are offering education debt
    forgiveness for both recruiting and retention. Bringing the
    people to us is not as hard as keeping the people, especially
    in HR, once we have them. And it is not all about the pay and
    compensation, quite frankly. The bill that the House, in the
    Armed Services Committee, just brought forward, with the paid
    parental leave, I think is something that we need to look at.
    The Department of Defense has the best paid parental leave
    policy in the Federal Government, for those in uniform. Every
    other Federal agency has the worst paid parental leave program.
        I would love for the VA to be a pilot program, because I
    think 60 percent of the VA is women. We have a younger
    workforce than most of the rest of the Federal Government, and
    I think we could both recruit and retain workers if we had a
    paid parental leave program.
        Senator Carper. Thank you all for being here today and
    thank you for your testimony. Thanks, Madam Chairman.
        Senator Sinema. Senator Carper, we have a few moments. If
    you have more questions you are welcome to ask a few more.
        Senator Carper. I am supposed to be in three places right
    now. You probably are too.
        Senator Sinema. Yes, that is true.
        Senator Carper. As a veteran myself, retired Navy captain,
    thank you very much for all you guys and gals are doing.
        Mr. Sitterly. Thank you, sir. Thank you for your service.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you, Senator.
        I have another question for Ms. Bailey. As you have noted,
    hiring is a complex issue and so is retention. In Arizona, many
    of our Custom and Border Protection (CBP) employees commute
    long distances to work in order to live in a larger community
    and have access to schools or job opportunities for spouses,
    you mentioned earlier.
        These long commutes are not unique to Arizona--I know that
    they occur in Texas, for sure--and they do cost our border
    workforce time with family and money for travel. What can we do
    to help address this specific challenge of the long commute
    that many families are doing every day?
        Ms. Bailey. We actually did talk about that with the Border
    Patrol. It is something that is really pretty disconcerting to
    us, because, to your point, it is like some of them are on the
    road up to 2 hours, and then whenever they get there, they have
    to change into their uniforms, and it just makes for an
    incredibly long day. It is a dangerous day because of how many
    working hours that they are putting in, and then the commute at
    the end of the day.
        Some of the things that we need to just really kind of
    think these through, but are there ways for us to create
    housing, if you will, in those areas, in those border areas.
    And maybe we can change the shifts in such a way that folks
    would actually have the opportunity to work kind of like a fire
    department, where it is four days on, four off shifts.
        So those are just some of the innovative things that the
    Border Patrol is taking into consideration. We will need to
    work with our unions as well, and with Border Patrol agents,
    with the leadership, to see if it is even feasible. But, I just
    want you to know that it is always in the back of our minds to
    just think of ways that we can address this very complex issue.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you. My next question is for Mr.
    Sitterly. Under the VA Choice and Quality Employment Act of
    2017, the VA is required to conduct exit interviews of outgoing
    employees and provide that data to Congress. But in reviewing
    these reports I was interested to see that the number one
    reason employees left was to move to a new job opportunity.
    Retirement was second and management issues was third.
        So pay was one of the least common reasons, but it often
    seems we talk about pay first when it comes to retaining
    employees at the VA. How are you using this data and other data
    from additional sources to inform your program and policies for
    attracting and retaining employees?
        Mr. Sitterly. Great question, Senator. Thank you for that.
    We have our All Employee Survey, which we just completed. We
    not only have the exit surveys, we have entrance surveys. I
    just swore in a new class of 31 people this week. More than
    half of them were returning VA employees.
        When you look at the outside and you compare pay, benefits,
    all of the compensation, it is not always about the opportunity
    to get paid more. It is often about the opportunity to advance
    in grade, advance in rank. And so part of our challenge, I
    think, is onboarding people as they come back, to bring them
    back into the organizations that they left. And also to make
    sure that we have a good workforce plan to allow them to grow
    into the jobs that they have.
        Often times we find that the exit surveys are the most
    immediate way for people to share feedback when they are
    walking out the door. It is not always pay and compensation but
    it is advancement. And so as we look at cybersecurity, for an
    example, when we look at the classification system that we have
    within the Federal Government, it is 70 years old. It is a
    proxy for pay and allowances.
        Under Title 38, we hire the person, and we call it rank and
    person. We hire them according to the specialization that they
    have--the education, the experience and the talent that they
    have. With Title 5, we hire to the position; whatever is in the
    org char.--it could be a GS-12, I would tell you it is very
    difficult to recruit and retain talent in things like
    cybersecurity or some of those other shortage fields when you
    are using that pay structure that we have.
        So, yes, the exit surveys tell us that people leave for
    upward mobile promotions, and/or jobs. Sometimes it is tied to
    pay and compensation, and sometimes it is not.
        Senator Lankford [Presiding.] So the ongoing vote is
    happening, and so I sat down for the first vote and ran back,
    and then we will pepper you with questions and then I will run
    back for the second vote and we will see if we can get it in,
    and other Members may come in and out.
        Dr. Jones, let me start with your comment. Since 2001, this
    has been on GAO's high-risk list. Give me a quick snapshot of
    what you think is going better and what has made no progress.
    And if anything is worse, you can say that. I would hope that
    nothing is worse. But what is better since 2001?
        Ms. Jones. I think that since 2001, I think that many
    agencies and OPM have become much more aware of the need to
    have strong strategic workforce planning, and to be able to
    identify the kinds of critical skills that they need to achieve
    their agencies' missions.
        I would say that agencies sometimes are more aware of a
    need to look at results-oriented management, needing to begin
    to devise systems to collect information. How shall I say it? A
    range in agencies' ability to do that, also including OPM.
        I think agency leaders have perhaps become more aware of
    their role in both setting the tone and devising agency
    policies to improve the management of their workforces,
    including identifying what kinds of skills they need now and in
    the future.
        I would just say that there is a range in the ability of
    agencies, not only to do this but to devise systems to measure
    what they are doing, to analyze data and see how effective the
    measures that they take are, and then to be able to do it with
    continuity over time.
        Senator Lankford. So you think trendline is correct? I am
    trying to read into what you are saying. There are obviously 29
    areas unaddressed currently by OPM. Trendline is improving or
    trendline is not getting better? Addressing some issues but
    obviously new issues come.
        Ms. Jones. I would say that I think the trendline is
    getting better, but that we at GAO would like to see some of
    the changes that we have recommended take place with greater
    speed. If we were able to do that, while at the same time
    ensuring that the actions that agencies are taking are well
    justified and that the agencies are actually understanding any
    differences, positive differences or any mistakes that they are
    making.
        Senator Lankford. OK. So quick story time with James. My
    very first job was working at Baskin-Robbins, 31 flavors, if
    you remember that theme that was the deal all the time. I am a
    teenager wearing a pink and brown polka-dotted outfit. It was
    great character building for a teenage boy. But I distinctly
    remember when people walked in with 31 flavors it took forever
    to pick one, and by default, the majority of the people went to
    vanilla, the most popular flavor, with 31 options.
        We have how many hiring authorities now in the Federal
    Government?
        Ms. Bailey. 102.
        Senator Lankford. 102? I have heard as high as 120,
    depending on the agency if you have additional specialties.
        But by default, folks go back to the two or three they like
    using the most. You had mentioned before, Dr. Jones, about
    people need to be able to use all of the authorities that are
    out there, and they are not using all of the authorities.
        So the challenge that we have is, there are over 100
    different hiring authorities out there, but almost every agency
    that comes to us says, ``We want direct hiring authority. That
    is what we really want.''
        So what I need to hear from the two of you, especially,
    that do this all the time, and for you, Ms. Bailey, especially,
    coming from OPM and in this position in DHS now, is what do we
    do to be able to fix the hiring piece, as practical as you can
    be, especially with all the various hiring authorities that do
    not work because people just default to the two or three that
    they know? How do we solve this for your HR folks?
        Ms. Bailey. For starters, one of the first things I would
    say is please do not give us any more hiring authorities. We
    just do not need any more.
        Senator Lankford. You do not need a double chocolate
    raspberry variation?
        Ms. Bailey. I do not. You can even put sea salt on top of
    it and I still do not need it, OK?
        So what we really need to do is boil this all down, even
    our veterans' hiring authorities. A lot of time folks will say,
    that veterans have preference and we can hire veterans this
    way. But, even for them, there are three or four different ways
    to hire a veteran, and not all veterans are actually treated
    the same way, even within the hiring process.
        So one of the things from a DHS perspective that we have
    done, and we have actually introduced the legislation to
    Congress, is to have our DHS Enhanced Hiring Act consolidate
    all the hiring authorities for veterans into just one non-
    competitive hiring authority where we could walk into any
    military transition center, any university, any place that we
    would find a veteran, and we would have the opportunity to make
    them a job offer. That would be extremely helpful for us. It
    would be helpful for the veterans as well, because they would
    not have to worry about what their percentage was, or what
    their rating was, or if they had a campaign badge or not. It
    would just be beneficial for everyone.
        The second thing that we have introduced within our
    legislation is for our mission-critical positions, as long as
    our agency is maintaining 20 percent or higher veterans on
    board--and right now we are close to 30 percent--and maintain
    that 30 percent--that we should be able to go out to any source
    to recruit military spouses, students, people with
    disabilities, technical skills such as mechanics and things
    like that.
        We need the ability to actually hire people. There is no
    corporation in the world that has 102 different ways to hire
    somebody, so it is no wonder that we obviously default to the
    few that are on the books. It is not because there are
    favorites. It is just because it is probably the go-to thing
    for us, and it just makes it easier, because it is all about
    getting people on board.
        So my ask is that we just stop all of this nonsense and
    just boil it down to a veteran's hiring authority, and a hiring
    authority that I can use to hire everyone else. And, honestly,
    it would probably take 6 to 8 weeks, immediately, off the
    beginning part of the hiring process, if we could even just do
    that.
        Senator Lankford. So let me give you the challenge that we
    have around this desk, and when I walk over to the other
    building to be able to vote. Some Member of Congress saw some
    need for some group to get some attention and they passed a
    bill to give that hiring authority. And it may be named after
    them or it may be something that was a proud bill they passed,
    to be able to go back to them and to say, ``We are not going to
    do that anymore. We are going to clean this up because it is
    overly complicated, has its own political implications on
    that.'' That is my problem and I have to deal with that.
        Ms. Bailey. Right.
        Senator Lankford. Your challenge is that everyone is also
    going to look at you and going to say, ``Does everyone have a
    competitive shot? Are certain groups going to get more of an
    opportunity to be able to get in?'' You talk about recruiting
    on a college campus. Mr. Sitterly, you talked about going to
    where active duty military are and trying to be able to recruit
    them before they leave, even, to consider VA. That gives
    college students a detriment to those members of the military
    that are there, because they are not there on that base. It may
    be on a college campus there are not as many veterans that are
    on that college campus, or maybe a percentage but not as many.
        Every place you go, some group is going to say, ``Yes, but,
    did my group get the opportunity to be able to engage with
    this?'' What is a way that we can put a system in place to be
    able to say to DHS or VA or any entity, to say, we expect you
    to have a workplace as diverse as your environment that you
    work in, and we expect you to be able to maintain that and be
    able to reach out to all aspects of the community without
    having to be heavy-handed in this process? How do we balance
    that?
        Ms. Bailey. I think one of the ways would be for us to
    actually measure the results of this. So today DHS, for
    example, is 47 percent diverse. We have the highest level of
    diversity within any Federal agency. We are 10 percentage
    points above the entire Federal Government when it comes to
    diversity.
        Where we fall behind is with women, especially within our
    law enforcement areas. Today, I have to go to OPM and request a
    special hiring authority to hire just women. If we were given
    this authority, I could then create a women-only hiring event
    and be able to drive up the numbers that I have within our law
    enforcement community, from a gender perspective.
        I think the key to all of this is to measure it and to
    report it out in a very transparent way. Every agency should be
    able to report out where they are with regard to all of its
    diversity numbers. I think we keep track of that. We have
    plenty of oversight already that keeps track of these kinds of
    things. But report it out in a very transparent manner. If we
    are not meeting what we think is a reasonable expectation for
    an agency when it comes to diversity goals, then we would go
    back in and revisit it at that point in time.
        For me, the problem is that we have all these hiring
    authorities, we have this incredibly complicated system, and we
    are not that diverse anyhow. So we ought to try something new
    and just see if it is going to work, because I would almost
    bank on the fact that we would probably drive a higher
    diversity if we had the ability to target the areas that we
    wanted to, to be able to drive the kinds of numbers that we
    really want, in order to be able to accomplish our mission.
        Senator Lankford. OK. Mr. Sitterly, where is she right?
    Where is she wrong? What would you add to it?
        Mr. Sitterly. Yes. Well, in all fairness, Mr. Chairman, we
    HR people hang out at the same watering holes in Washington, so
    it is hard to disagree with her. I absolutely agree. Maybe you
    start by putting a moratorium on any additional hiring
    authorities, and you keep the ones we have. OPM, quite frankly,
    is doing a good job today of collecting data, and we have not
    had the ability to make evidence-based decisions on data in a
    long time.
        Once we start looking at that data and figure out where the
    authorities are working best, then you can bring it back to
    your colleagues and show them where they can be the sponsor of
    the consolidated personnel pay and authority, if that is what
    we want to do. They could put their name on it.
        But we simply cannot continue to have the complexities in
    the pay and personnel system that we have. And every time we
    add a new one, I feel like an HR specialist needs to have
    graduated from law school in order to implement it. Connecting
    Title 5 changes with Title 38 changes, with hybrid Title 38
    changes, there is always some disconnect.
        We have over 600 podiatrists in the VA today who are not
    getting paid properly, because of just the legal complexities
    of having changed it from a hybrid Title 38 to a Title 38. We
    are fixing it, but we have lost the trust and confidence from
    some very critical people.
        I will give you a quick anecdotal story, if I may, Mr.
    Chairman. In my previous job I was responsible for the day-to-
    day operations of our front office of 10 people. We had 10
    different authorities, 10 different systems that we hired the
    10 people in my front office, everything from a political
    appointee, Senate-confirmed assistant secretary to a career
    Senior Executive Service (SES), to an acquisition demo, to an
    intel, to an active duty military, to a Guard, and a Reserve.
    There were 10 different systems.
        And it is not just the hiring authority that is complex.
    They all have a different assignment policy. They all have a
    different bonus structure. They all have a different
    performance plan. They all have a different retirement plan.
        My boss used to beat me up because I spent all the time in
    the HR business and little of the time doing the policy for a
    680,000-person force. And that is the complexity that we face
    today.
        We do, to your point, Mr. Chairman, use those things that
    we are most familiar with, and we are not using all of the
    authorities that we have--in many cases. And when we do, we are
    making mistakes and we are not connecting pay. I would suggest,
    sir, if I may, that we can work with you and OPM, Dr. Jones, to
    maybe put a moratorium on anything additional, and then go back
    and see what it is that we can consolidate.
        Senator Lankford. So a simple ``make it stop''----
        Mr. Sitterly. Make it stop, sir, please.
        Senator Lankford [continuing]. And then try to figure out
    how to be able to turn that around.
        You mentioned, in your testimony, you used the term ``we
    must be creative in our hiring.'' Tell me what you mean by
    that.
        Mr. Sitterly. The classification system that we use for
    general GS employees is 70 years old, like I mentioned. We
    cannot continue competing using old pay scales. It becomes a
    proxy for pay and compensation. To Senator Rosen's point, first
    we have to determine what is a cyber skill that we need, and
    separate those from coding and software specialties, and
    infrastructure specialties; that is difficult enough. And then
    as we recruit for these jobs we get the people that come in,
    but when they look at our offerings for pay and compensation,
    particularly at the entry level, we cannot compete.
        So throw away the GS system as a proxy for pay and
    compensation. Go to a Title 38. Put everybody under a Title 38-
    like structure, where we are paying you for the skill that you
    bring, we are paying you for the experience that you bring, and
    putting you into the right job, versus where you are in the
    hierarchy.
        Senator Lankford. Right. Especially regionally.
        Obviously there are quite a few Federal offices that are in
    lower cost of living areas, and some that are in extremely high
    cost of living areas. You mentioned, as well, some of your
    Border Patrol and some of the difficulties there. If Senator
    Heitkamp was sitting here she would talk about Northern Border
    and the difficulty of pay for the Northern Border as well, and
    the isolation of that.
        So how does that fit into what you are saying?
        Mr. Sitterly. Sir, in Title 38, the beauty is there are
    three components of the pay. It is base pay, it is market pay
    of that area that you are in, and then it is performance pay.
    You will see that for a lot of people, their pay will not
    change, because they are getting paid according to the region
    that they are in. Some places it will increase, but I believe
    that if you reduce the turnover and the retraining of their
    skills that there is a business case to be made to do it with
    that particular formula.
        Senator Lankford. Ms. Bailey, there has been a challenge
    for Federal workers in any agency, leaving, going to the
    private sector, working in the private sector 10 years, gaining
    experience, and then coming back into Federal service. How do
    we fix that?
        Ms. Bailey. First of all, what I would say is that it is
    kind of a revolving door for some of these folks, and in some
    specialties, quite frankly, we are OK with that. In the cyber
    world, I do not really expect anybody to come in and be a 30-
    year employee.
        Senator Lankford. Right.
        Ms. Bailey. I really do expect them to come in and out.
        So, one of the things that we are doing is creating,
    especially with our cyber personnel management system, and the
    Title 6 that Senator Carper and Senator Coburn have given us,
    is the ability for folks to come in and out and not be tied to
    the grade.
        As you said, today--and this is pretty insane--you are a
    GS-11, you leave, you go out to private sector, you might solve
    all kinds of things, do all kinds of good things, get your
    Ph.D., come back in, and, well, congratulations, you are a GS-
    11.
        What we have done with our new system is created the
    ability for them to come back in and pay them at the level at
    which they actually have brought back in additional experience,
    additional education, etc.
        And so having that ability will be a game-changer for us,
    because we will be able to keep track of these folks and almost
    have like a DHS alumni program, if you will, and the ability to
    keep track of them, and then encourage them to come back in, in
    a non-competitive way. We should not make them have to compete
    for the job again as well.
        Senator Lankford. Ms. Jones, is that something that we
    should have across all of government?
        Ms. Jones. I certainly think, yes, we do need to look at
    that. We have said, in many different reports for different
    agencies, that we need to look at ways to make hiring or
    rehiring Federal staff more flexible, so long as the agency has
    thought about the policies that they need to do it, or they are
    testing or measuring the impact that the change in the policy
    would make, and that they keep a good eye on it so that if
    something changes in the benefit to the agency over time they
    know that it is changing, and that they continue to meet the
    statutory requirements. But yes, more flexibility.
        Senator Lankford. Ms. Bailey, the USAJobs website is a
    really beautiful website. When you look at it, just the way it
    is laid out, very simple, very straightforward. What is the
    problem with USAJobs? Does it work for you?
        Ms. Bailey. There is not a problem with USAJobs it is
    basically an electronic jobs board. Back in the day, when I got
    hired, you went to the Unemployment Office and you pulled
    something off of a board on the wall. Now it is like an
    electronic board, right?
        The problem I see with USAJobs, is not the technology, but
    we have a post-and-pray system. So we post something on USAJobs
    and we just pray somebody finds it, and we pray that they
    understand what the job announcement says. We pray that they
    know what a 2210, 13 is.
        As a result, it is not conducive to the way people actually
    interact and find jobs. In the private sector, while they do
    use these posting on these job boards, they also have the
    opportunity to go hold a conference, or hold a training
    session, to network, to do different things and have different
    approaches to recruiting, to be able to actually get folks to
    apply for their jobs.
        Senator Lankford. So you are saying both/and, at this
    point?
        Ms. Bailey. Yes. I think it is both/and. Because I would
    not really want to throw out USAJobs because it does have--it
    has a means, but I also want the ability to go to a Black Hat
    conference, as an example, and be able to seek out cyber
    talent, ask for their resumes, get those resumes in, take a
    look at them, maybe interview them that night, in the lobby,
    and be able to offer them a job. We need that capability to be
    able to do that.
        USAJobs, though, certainly serves a purpose for some of our
    other positions, or even that position as well, because it just
    gives us, to your point, an ``and.''
        Senator Lankford. Mr. Sitterly, do you want to add to that?
        Mr. Sitterly. Mr. Chairman, I agree. I think there is a use
    for it as a bulletin board. I think the problem with USAJobs is
    our own problem internally, that when people apply for jobs we
    are not communicating back that they were considered and not
    found eligible, they were considered and referred, and so on.
        Senator Lankford. Is that agency to agency?
        Mr. Sitterly. That is agency to agency. In all fairness,
    there are jobs that you will get thousands, I mean, literally
    thousands of applicants for, which is one of the problems about
    an open and continuous recruiting. You have to be careful with
    that because you will get the same people that apply for every
    job out there.
        Senator Lankford. But that opening, that listing, or the
    posting is there, let's say, 2 weeks. It will say it is closing
    today, or it is closing whatever day it is. What is wrong with
    an automatic email going out to everybody saying, ``Hey, thanks
    for doing this. The consideration will be made. The decision be
    made. At this point you will be notified,'' and then when
    people are notified that that agency selects this group, and
    then another email goes out saying ``you were not picked for
    this?''
        Mr. Sitterly. That would be ideal, sir.
        Senator Lankford. Does anyone do that?
        Mr. Sitterly. I think they do, depending on the hiring
    authority, and looking, again, are you using the veteran's
    preference? Somebody has to go through that list to make
    determination whether or not the individual is in a particular
    group or not?
        Senator Lankford. Dr. Jones, do you know if that is done by
    any of the agencies on a consistent basis, just be able to
    notify individuals?
        Ms. Jones. I am not sure about that.
        Senator Lankford. It is a common courtesy that if you took
    the time to be able to go through the process you are not left
    out there on the line just waiting to be able to find out what
    happens, and I would assume would get more people actually
    engaged if they applied, and they engage, and then someone
    actually engaged back with them. Even if it is a form letter,
    just to say what is happening, it would certainly be helpful
    for those individuals, even to know it is closed; you did not
    get it, is a helpful notice, and most of them never even hear
    ``you did not get it.'' It is just hanging out there for
    months. So that may be one thing we will want to talk about in
    the days ahead.
        Senator Lankford. They have called the second vote. You all
    are so lucky, because I have about 45 other questions to go.
    But we will follow up on them and we will go through these. The
    key thing is that I want to make sure as many practical ideas
    as you have, that you are willing to be able to share with us.
    Because we have to move from staring at and marveling at the
    problem to actually solving the problem.
        This Committee has talked the problem to death, and we have
    to get to what are the practical things to be there. You all
    know the things we get hung up on. It is veterans preference,
    it is competitive, it is allowing everybody to be engaged in
    the process, making sure no one is excluded, making sure
    agencies are trying to be as diverse as possible, to be able to
    reach out to as many different people as possible, and to be
    able to get a hiring process that does not take 107 days to be
    able to go through this straightforward process.
        Our concern is that everyone's interest is being fulfilled
    except for the applicants and except for the agencies. And if
    the agencies take this long to be able to get an applicant,
    people are not going to do it.
        I do not think I have shared with you all yet, but this all
    started for me about 5 years ago when I talked to the folks in
    McAlester, at the Army Ammunition Depot, and they were trying
    to hire forklift operators. And they were competing with the
    warehouses in town.
        And for the folks that are going to be a forklift operator,
    they cannot take 4 months to be able to get an answer if they
    are going to get a job working a forklift. Three warehouses in
    town have already offered them a job that afternoon, and when
    we finally call them back and say, ``We want you to do it,''
    they are just loyal enough to their employer, they are not
    going to quit to come work at the Ammunition Depot, because
    this new person has hired them and trained them and they are
    committed to be there now.
        So it makes something overly hard that should not be that
    difficult. And so we want to see if we can actually move this
    to a faster pace.
        Anything that you all want to get on the record right now,
    before I have to be able to break us, and so I can run and go
    vote?
        Ms. Jones. There is one thing. You talked about diversity.
    All of the major agencies have to fill out a form, MD-715--it
    is an EEOC form--every year. They have to look and determine if
    there are any triggers which are limiting their ability to hire
    a diverse workforce. Then they have to identify barriers, and
    they have to look for solutions to any barriers that are
    impeding them from hiring people with particular
    characteristics.
        There are no targets except for people who have rather
    severe targeted disabilities. So you mentioned the problem of
    an agency wanting to hire a diverse workforce but then having
    to respond to the American public about whether I got my fair
    chance?
        So this is a process in which they compare the demographic
    characteristics of their agency employees to the demographic
    characteristics of the relevant civilian labor force. So it is
    not the whole labor force. It is the one which can be compared,
    or ones that can be compared to the labor force of the agency.
        So they have to do it. If someone comes to them and says,
    ``We did not get our fair chance,'' they can at least say that
    they went through this process and they are aware of where,
    perhaps, maybe they are not getting as many representatives of
    a particular demographic group as the relevant civilian labor
    force has.
        So it is not going to necessarily satisfy everybody, but it
    is an analytical exercise that if done properly, can help them
    figure out how to diversify their labor forces.
        Senator Lankford. OK. Thank you.
        Ms. Bailey. Just real quick, three things. One, I could not
    agree with you more. I just want to see us stop admiring the
    problem and actually tackle the solutions. Two, I would love to
    work with you and have you champion our DHS Enhanced Hiring Act
    so that we can simplify this process, because I think it is
    well worth it. And three, the DHS workforce deserves our full
    support. They have an incredibly hard mission and some really
    pretty difficult and challenging times. And so anything we can
    do to work together to make sure that we support them and their
    families is very much appreciated.
        Thank you, Chairman.
        Senator Lankford. Thank you.
        Mr. Sitterly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will just add that
    this Congress gave the Department of Defense pilot authority to
    certify their own qualification review boards (QRBs) for their
    senior executives. When a senior executive under Title 5
    applies for a job they have to submit three documents--their CV
    or their resume, their technical qualifications, and then what
    is called executive core qualifications (ECQs).
        Presently, those all go to OPM to be graded. Most
    organizations hire contractors, or the candidate hires a
    contractor to do it. It is a writing test, whether or not you
    can spell. I would ask that you consider giving the other
    Federal agencies some authorities on a pilot basis to do our
    own certification of the QRBs, as well. Thank you.
        Senator Lankford. Do you think, by the way, most of those
    applicants actually write their own stuff, or they are hiring
    someone to write their materials for them?
        Mr. Sitterly. Sir, most of the Federal Government hire
    contractors to help them write, at government expense, and,
    frankly, it is a barrier to getting people from outside of the
    Federal Government in. The answer is no, they are not writing
    it.
        Senator Lankford. That whole process itself, I think, is a
    problem.
        Mr. Sitterly. So, sir, you gave the DOD a 50-person pilot.
    We would love to have the same one. That will help expedite the
    hiring of some of our medical center directors as well.
        Senator Lankford. OK. Alright. That is very fair. Quite
    frankly, it is one of my great frustrations that we all pretend
    that is a document that everyone is writing, and we all quietly
    wink and nod and know it is not. So I want to be able to try to
    get that done.
        Let us keep the ongoing conversation. We have very good
    staff that engages on these areas and we are trying to gather
    it out. We will go through the proposed legislation that you
    have gone, to be able to look at the enhanced hiring from DHS,
    to be able to see what fits there, or what could be a broader
    experiment for the entire Federal Government.
        But we have to be able to move this. And any ongoing
    dialogue that we can have, both with OPM, colleagues on both
    the Republican and Democrat side, would be exceptionally
    helpful, because this is not a partisan issue. This is all of
    government. It is not new in this Administration. It has been
    growing and has been an issue for a long time. So we will try
    to be able to work together see if we cannot solve this.
        That does conclude today's hearing. I do want to thank all
    of you for your testimony. I do appreciate very much the work
    that you put into preparing for this and being a part of this
    dialogue today.
        The hearing record remains open for 15 days until the close
    of business on Wednesday, August 14, for the submission of
    statements and questions for the record.
        This hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 3:35 pm., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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