    [Senate Hearing 116-324]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                           S. Hrg. 116-324

                       OPPORTUNITIES TO ADVANCE RENEWABLE
                      ENERGY AND ENERGY EFFICIENCY EFFORTS
                              IN THE UNITED STATES

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                         ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                  MAY 21, 2019

                                   __________

                           Printed for the use of the
                   Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                   __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    37-309 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2021

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                        LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman
    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
    MIKE LEE, Utah                       MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
    STEVE DAINES, Montana                BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
    BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
    CORY GARDNER, Colorado               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona              ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
    LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee           CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota

                          Brian Hughes, Staff Director
                         Kellie Donnelly, Chief Counsel
                Chester Carson, Senior Professional Staff Member
                    Sarah Venuto, Democratic Staff Director
                    Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
              Brie Van Cleve, Democratic Professional Staff Member

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska....     1
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from
      West Virginia..................................................     3
    Gardner, Hon. Cory, a U.S. Senator from Colorado.................     5

                                   WITNESSES

    Simmons, Hon. Daniel R., Assistant Secretary, Energy Efficiency
      and Renewable Energy, U.S. Department of Energy................     6
    Keller, Dr. Martin, Laboratory Director, National Renewable
      Energy Laboratory..............................................    16
    Conant, Dan, Founder and CEO, Solar Holler.......................    26
    Hartke, Dr. Jason, President, Alliance to Save Energy............    35
    Grunau, Bruno C., Chief Programs Officer, Cold Climate Housing
      Research Center................................................    44

              ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

    Alliance to Save Energy, et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   120
    Conant, Dan:
        Opening Statement............................................    26
        Written Testimony............................................    28
        Question for the Record......................................   107
    Gardner, Hon. Cory:
        Opening Statement............................................     5
    Grunau, Bruno C.:
        Opening Statement............................................    44
        Written Testimony............................................    47
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................   113
    Hartke, Dr. Jason:
        Opening Statement............................................    35
        Written Testimony............................................    37
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................   108
    Heinrich, Hon. Martin:
        Chart entitled ``PPA prices by contract execution date'' by
          Wood Mackenzie Power and Renewables, dated 5/21/2019.......    60
    Keller, Dr. Martin:
        Opening Statement............................................    16
        Written Testimony............................................    18
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    93
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
        Opening Statement............................................     3
    Murkowski, Hon. Lisa:
        Opening Statement............................................     1
    Simmons, Hon. Daniel R.:
        Opening Statement............................................     6
        Written Testimony............................................     9
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    78

                       OPPORTUNITIES TO ADVANCE RENEWABLE
                          ENERGY AND ENERGY EFFICIENCY
                          EFFORTS IN THE UNITED STATES

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, MAY 21, 2019

                                           U.S. Senate,
                     Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:31 a.m. in
    Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa
    Murkowski, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA

        The Chairman. We are coming to order as we begin our
    hearing to examine opportunities to advance renewable energy
    and energy efficiency efforts here in this country.
        I want to start by acknowledging, really, the very
    significant progress that we have seen in renewable energy in
    recent years. We have seen the costs of many technologies,
    whether it is wind, whether it is solar, or something else,
    decline considerably. Many renewables are now cost competitive
    without subsidies in certain parts of the country, and that is
    leading to greater investment. In 2018, U.S. corporations broke
    previous records by signing contracts for 8.6 gigawatts of wind
    and solar production.
        We have also made great progress on energy efficiency. This
    is also another good story and one that, unfortunately, is not
    told near often enough. According to the American Council for
    an Energy Efficient Economy, energy efficiency has helped
    reduce energy use by about 50 percent relative to what it would
    have been had 1980 patterns continued. These reductions are
    saving Americans. They are saving them approximately $2,500 per
    year. That makes a difference for our families.
        We are making progress, but I think we know that we have
    plenty of areas where we can continue to improve and increase
    efficiency.
        Some of the most impressive work, and I am going to totally
    brag on my State here and the innovation and the pioneering
    that we are seeing coming out of the State, and particularly at
    the Cold Climate Housing Research Center (Center). For example,
    the Center is designing and building homes that use 80 percent,
    80 percent, less energy than comparable homes that are being
    built without their assistance. So think about what that means
    in a cold place, oftentimes pretty dark, to recognize those
    kinds of energy efficiencies. And then, when you compound that
    with the extraordinarily high cost of heating and just power
    generation in the State of Alaska, we are really making a
    difference to families and communities.
        I am pleased to be able to welcome back the Center's Chief
    Program Officer, Mr. Bruno Grunau. Bruno is going to tell us
    more about the good work they are doing in the Arctic and rural
    Alaska.
        We are also joined by Mr. Daniel Simmons, who is the
    Assistant Secretary of Energy (DOE) for the Office of Energy
    Efficiency and Renewable Energy. It is good to have you back
    before the Committee.
        Dr. Martin Keller is the Director of the National Renewable
    Energy Lab (NREL). We love having our lab directors here and we
    appreciate, very much, the fact that you were up in Fairbanks
    for National Lab Day.
        Mr. Dan Conant is the Founder and President of Solar
    Holler. We welcome you.
        And Dr. Jason Hartke is the President of the Alliance to
    Save Energy, an organization that many of us are familiar with.
        Thank you all for being here today ready to talk about the
    important work that you are doing as it relates to increasing
    efficiency and deploying cleaner technologies.
        I am going to provide Committee members with some of the
    little highlights that make a difference in, again, a State
    like ours, where our energy costs are so high.
        The community of Yakutat in southeast Alaska, 600 people--I
    think that is a little bit low--a fishing community with no
    access by road. In 2013 they decided, we have to get control of
    our costs, because the cost of food in the grocery store was so
    high because of what it cost them to just keep the lights on at
    the store and keep the freezer frozen. So they pieced together
    some federal and state funding. They invested over $600,000 in
    efficiency upgrades at the local school, at the courthouse and
    city office. At the elementary school alone, they invested
    nearly $200,000 to upgrade all of their lighting to LED. And
    what they are looking at in savings for that little community
    is about $70,000 a year. That buys them another teacher. That
    buys them another teacher and an aide, so in that community it
    is a huge difference.
        I also tell the story very often of a beautiful little
    fishing community called Pelican in southeastern Alaska. Again,
    pretty small, and there used to be about 100 year-round
    residents there. But what was happening in Pelican is even
    though it was a fishing community, the fishermen were just
    bypassing Pelican because the ice that they would take to keep
    their fish cool and fresh, the ice cost them too much money,
    because their power generation was by diesel powered generation
    and so you have to put the diesel in the boat, get it down
    there, and you can't even afford to have ice. Well if you don't
    have ice, you don't have a community. What they then did, small
    hydropower from Pelican Creek that had made power possible
    since the 1940s, they looked to address the reality of that
    small hydro. They invested in a new penstock, new turbines,
    modern powerhouse. But that then allowed one local family to
    start a commercial fish buying and processing business five
    years ago with five employees. This summer, that little
    processing company has 24 employees. Keep in mind this is a
    community of 100 so a quarter of the people there are now
    working there. They have signed a 25-year lease on an old crab
    plant with plans to expand and grow further. They anticipate
    shipping out $1 million worth of fish this summer. And all of
    that is made possible because they had clean, renewable
    hydropower, and the continued investment in making that
    resource more abundant and more affordable.
        So when we talk about the small, incremental innovation,
    and again, small hydro, many would say it is not that
    innovative, but it can transform communities. It can make them
    sustainable. It can allow people to live and work where they
    want to.
        Those are just a couple stories from my home state. I would
    venture to say that in every one of yours you have small
    examples where you are putting families to work, you are
    allowing a community to be more sustainable.
        Our challenge here is to ensure that the costs of new
    technologies continue to decline and to make sure that upfront
    costs don't stall out or need or lack that beneficial
    investment.
        We have great experts here today. I am looking forward to
    hearing your thoughts on what we can be doing to move to that
    next level.
        I will turn to my colleague, Senator Manchin, but I am
    looking forward to a very interesting hearing this morning.

                  STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

        Senator Manchin. Chair Murkowski, I want to thank you for
    holding this hearing today and all of you for being here to
    help us have a better understanding of how we can help.
        Energy efficiency is low-hanging fruit. We all know that,
    and renewable energy is something that we all strive to
    maximize in every effort and every area that we live.
        I would like to welcome our witnesses, and I want to thank
    all of you for discussing how these technologies can help us
    address some of the greatest challenges like climate change and
    energy cost.
        I would like to give a special welcome to Dan Conant, a
    native West Virginian whose company is Solar Holler. I think he
    gave it away where he was from when he put the holler in there.
    He is an excellent example of the work ethic and pragmatism
    that West Virginians are applying to the climate problem.
        We need more examples of this in our State and across the
    country whether we are talking about efficiency, renewables,
    energy storage or other climate solutions. It is also critical
    that we work to remove the barriers small energy companies like
    Solar Holler face as they seek to build competitive businesses.
    Together, I hope we identify how to overcome these barriers and
    others so that new businesses can thrive, workers can find jobs
    in these growing fields and we can put to use all the tools
    available to solve climate change.
        I firmly believe that we can grow the U.S. economy while
    simultaneously reducing our greenhouse gas emissions if we
    invest in commonsense solutions. We need policies that promote
    adoption of cost-efficient solutions that already exist in all
    scales, whether that is a wind farm or an LED light bulb, and
    our policies should ensure a path toward commercialization into
    the markets.
        I am glad that we have Assistant Secretary Dan Simmons here
    today to tell us about how we can bring down the cost of these
    technologies. According to the Department of Energy, for every
    $1 invested in the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable
    Energy, federal taxpayers have seen a return of $20. That's 20
    to 1. Low-cost energy is the engine that drives our economy and
    gives us our competitive edge, but as states like West Virginia
    and Alaska face the growing threat of climate change, we also
    must ensure our energy is ultimately carbon-free.
        On the home front, as of the last survey in 2015, one in
    three U.S. households face challenges paying energy bills.
    These burdens fall disproportionately on low income families,
    particularly in rural economies like West Virginia.
        DOE's responsibility is not just to drive down the cost of
    energy technologies but also reduce the energy needed to run
    our businesses and our homes. That is why programs like the
    Appliance Standards Program and the Weatherization Assistance
    Program have been so important. They help the pocketbook and,
    most importantly, the climate.
        Last year, the International Energy Agency (IEA) determined
    that energy efficiency policies alone could potentially achieve
    more than 40 percent of the emission cuts needed to reach
    global emission reduction goals. That is why Senator Hoeven and
    I recently introduced the All-of-the-Above Federal Building
    Energy Conservation Act with support from a broad stakeholder
    coalition, including the Alliance to Save Energy. Forty percent
    of the nation's energy is consumed in buildings, far more than
    either the transportation or industrial sectors. In fact, the
    Federal Government is the single largest energy consumer in our
    country. Our bill would also repeal prohibition on using fossil
    fuel, something that DOE can never implement. The bill would
    lower the Federal Government's carbon footprint and energy
    bills providing long-term savings to taxpayers. This is low-
    hanging fruit, and it just makes good sense.
        In addition to improving the energy efficiency, we will
    need the deployment of more low-carbon and carbon-free
    technologies. Renewable energy, including hydropower, currently
    provides nearly 18 percent of power across the U.S. This number
    is growing and we need to support that growth and work on
    necessary solutions, like storage.
        At one point, my little state boasted the largest wind farm
    east of the Mississippi at Mount Storm in Grant County. We want
    to find ways to welcome more renewable energy to states like
    West Virginia, including solar, which is so underused in our
    state, hydropower and wind. Fossil fuels will need to continue
    to provide critical baseload as we increase penetration of
    renewables across the country. And so, we are looking at the
    how to burn them in the cleanest way possible.
        The electric grid is undergoing rapid transformation. It is
    becoming more complex and more flexible and more diverse in
    terms of energy resources. We need to continue to invest in
    clean technologies that will keep the grid reliable and that
    means, also, safe from cybersecurity threats and resilient to
    extreme weather events. I look forward to working with Chair
    Murkowski and members of this Committee on that.
        We have a lot to cover today, and I want to thank you again
    for being here.
        Our little State of West Virginia has been blessed with so
    much energy, and it has helped this country be the great
    country that it is over all these years. We have had an
    abundance of coal. We still have probably the finest coking
    coal in the world. That is in demand all over the world.
        We have an ocean of energy under us in natural gas and the
    wet gas--butane, propane and ethane--that comes from that. We
    have not developed, and Dan knows that, we have not developed
    our solar program the way we should, and I think we can rapidly
    ascent that. Wind is what it is in our state, and it has done
    quite well. There is a lot going on there.
        So we just thank all of you for being here, and we are
    trying to find an all-of-the-above solution.
        Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Manchin.
        Senator Gardner, I know that you are very proud of the
    National Renewable Energy Lab that you host there in Colorado.
    I don't know if you would want to make an introduction of Dr.
    Keller.

                    STATEMENT OF HON. CORY GARDNER,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM COLORADO

        Senator Gardner. I would, thank you very much.
        Dr. Keller, welcome to the Committee. Thank you, Madam
    Chair, and I appreciate the opportunity.
        Dr. Keller survived--how many inches of snow at your house
    this morning----
        Dr. Keller. Six or seven.
        Senator Gardner. ----six or seven inches of snow, so come
    back to Colorado. The ski resorts are going to reopen for the
    summer. It is going to be a good year.
        [Laughter.]
        It is my pleasure to introduce Dr. Keller, Director of the
    National Renewable Energy Laboratory.
        I was out at NREL, I guess recently, in the past month, but
    also last summer when Secretary Perry visited and we saw,
    firsthand, the growth at NREL under Martin's leadership.
        The public-private partnerships NREL has been so successful
    in developing and the strategic growth at the National Wind
    Technology Center which is now named the Flat Irons Campus
    where it has become much more than wind by integrating and
    testing many different types of energy technologies together
    for future grids. It truly is amazing, and I hope members of
    the Committee will have a chance to go out and see the work
    that they are doing.
        Martin, the ninth Director at NREL, joined the lab from Oak
    Ridge National Laboratory where he served as Associate
    Laboratory Director for Energy and Environmental Sciences which
    included programs in bio sciences, energy technology and
    manufacturing. In 2006, Dr. Keller earned his Doctorate in
    Microbiology--Summa Cum Laude, I might add (most of us
    graduated Thank the Laude) from the University of Regensburg in
    Germany. He was appointed a Fellow at the American Association
    for the Advancement of Science in 2013 and multiple boards,
    advisory panels, including the Science Advisory Board for the
    Council on Competitiveness.
        Dr. Keller, thank you very much for being here today, and
    welcome to all the witnesses.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
        Let's go ahead and begin with our very esteemed and just
    good energy panel here this morning.
        As I mentioned, we are joined by Daniel Simmons, Assistant
    Secretary for Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy
    at the U.S. Department of Energy. Dr. Keller with NREL has been
    introduced. Mr. Conant has been introduced as the Founder and
    President of Solar Holler. Jason Hartke, President of the
    Alliance to Save Energy. And I have had an opportunity to share
    with you the great work that is done at the Cold Climate
    Housing Research Center ably led by Mr. Grunau and our friend,
    Jack Hebert. So, Mr. Grunau, welcome to you as well.
        I would ask you to try to keep your comments to about five
    minutes. Your full statements will be included as part of the
    record, and then we will have an opportunity for questions and
    answers once you have completed your opening statememnts.
        Mr. Simmons, if you would like to begin the panel, welcome.

       STATEMENT OF HON. DANIEL R. SIMMONS, ASSISTANT SECRETARY,
      ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF
                                 ENERGY

        Mr. Simmons. Thank you.
        Madam Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Manchin and
    members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to
    examine the opportunities to advance energy and energy
    efficient efforts in the United States.
        As the Assistant Secretary for the Office of Energy
    Efficiency and Renewable Energy, EERE, I am responsible for
    overseeing a broad portfolio of renewable energy, energy
    efficiency and transportation programs.
        We live in an exciting time for energy technologies. In
    fact, I think we live in the most exciting time for energy
    technologies in the history of the world with more competitive
    and affordable sources of energy than ever before. Costs of
    numerous technologies have declined, have massively declined,
    in recent years, including solar photovoltaics, onshore wind,
    electric vehicle batteries and LED lights, just to name a few.
    We have also seen major improvements in energy efficiency of
    America's homes, businesses and industries.
        Technological innovation has contributed to these dramatic
    changes. Thanks in part to research and development at the
    Department of Energy and the national laboratories, the United
    States leads the world in reducing carbon dioxide emissions
    since 2005. The electric power sector CO2 emissions
    declined 28 percent over this time period to their lowest level
    since 1987.
        Affordable, reliable energy gives America a competitive
    edge needed to excel in a rapidly changing global economy. But
    affordable energy does not matter if we can't integrate these
    sources of energy into the electric grid.
        This is why, in addition to energy affordability, EERE is
    focusing on advancing grid reliability and resilience through
    energy integration and storage. To execute on these priorities,
    EERE has issued over $935 million in competitive funding
    opportunities and selection since December 2008. And also, as
    of a couple weeks ago, EERE has released all of our funding
    opportunity announcements for FY19. I'm very proud of the work
    that all of the staff has done in EERE to execute on those
    funding opportunity announcements.
        One of our major priorities is the Advanced Energy Storage
    Initiative. As we work to integrate more resources into the
    nation's evolving energy system, flexibility of both generation
    and consumption is critical. This is why DOE announced the
    Advanced Energy Storage Initiative as part of the FY20 budget
    request. Coordinated across DOE's Applied Energy Offices, this
    initiative builds on EERE's Beyond Batteries Initiative from
    FY19. The initiative will tackle the challenges associated with
    integrating diverse energy sources such as large amounts of
    variable wind and solar into the grid.
        For example, EERE's Water Power Technology Office is
    working to improve the flexibility of hydropower and pump
    storage to increase the value of hydropower as a balancing
    resource to the grid. Hydro is currently the largest source of
    energy storage on the grid today.
        Also, EERE's Fuel Cell Technology Office is conducting
    research to produce hydrogen with low cost wind and solar, as
    well as nuclear generation to prevent curtailment of variable
    renewables and improve the economics of existing baseload
    resources.
        Also, EERE's Building Technology Office is focused on
    integrated advanced sensors and controls with flexible energy
    efficient technologies to advance the role that buildings play
    at providing services to the grid. In fact, the application
    deadline for the funding opportunity announcement on this
    building to grid work closes today.
        To address the need to integrate diverse energy resources,
    DOE is seeking $22 million in FY20 to accelerate the conversion
    of the National Wind Technology Center at the National
    Renewable Energy to the Flat Irons Campus. This Flat Irons
    Campus will include an experimental microgrid capable of
    testing grid integration at a megawatt scale. These advanced
    capabilities will allow DOE to test a suite of technologies
    under the Advanced Energy Storage Initiative and leverage the
    site's future power capacity of 19.9 megawatts with the
    capabilities of NREL's Energy System Integration facility.
        To effectively integrate all of these technologies
    together, EERE is also focused on emerging challenges of
    cybersecurity and sustainability. As more EERE technologies are
    integrated with the electric grid, we are working with the
    Office of Cybersecurity, Energy Security, and Emergency
    Response to address emerging cyber risks to design new
    technologies with cybersecurity as a requirement from the
    ground up. To that end, EERE is developing a multi-year program
    plan for cybersecurity per the FY19 Congressional direction.
        Increased demand for wind, solar and battery storage is
    also driving demand for critical minerals and rare earth
    elements as this Committee heard last week. To ensure
    sustainable growth for EERE technologies, DOE is focused on
    determining demand or reducing demand from foreign sources of
    critical minerals through domestic production and processing,
    reuse, recycling of earth and use of earth abundant substitutes
    while addressing end of life considerations.
        In conclusion, as the U.S. energy system evolves, so too
    must DOE's focus. While EERE has historically been focused on
    driving down the cost of individual technologies, today we are
    focused more than ever on integrating these technologies
    together as that is one of the real challenges for the future,
    that we need to expand on our vision as well to address the
    value that each source can provide to the grid. EERE is focused
    on opportunities to improve our flexibility of energy
    generating resources as well as flexibility of energy consuming
    resources to advance affordable, reliable and clean energy for
    all.
        Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the
    Committee today and to discuss the Office of Energy Efficiency
    and Renewable Energy. I look forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Simmons follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you so much, Mr. Simmons.
        Dr. Keller.

     STATEMENT OF DR. MARTIN KELLER, LABORATORY DIRECTOR, NATIONAL
                      RENEWABLE ENERGY LABORATORY

        Dr. Keller. Madam Chair Murkowski, Ranking Member Manchin,
    members of the Committee, thank you for this opportunity to
    examine future opportunities to advance renewable energy in the
    United States.
        Senator Gardner, thank you so much for this nice
    introduction, so I can skip all this now.
        [Laughter.]
        So, in my view, the subject of today's hearing could not be
    more timely or more important. Today, electric generation from
    renewable technologies are no longer alternative solutions but
    are becoming significant contributors to our power supply.
        According to the Energy Information Administration's Short-
    Term Energy Outlook, wind and solar are expected to be the
    fastest growing sources of electricity generation for the next
    two years. While many advances have been made in new energy
    technology R&D and commercialization, our nation faces
    challenges including population growth, increased urbanization
    and the growing global middle class. It will strain our ability
    to generate affordable, sustainable energy we need with global
    demand expected to double by 2050.
        So how do we meet these challenges reliably, affordably and
    responsibly? The answer is continued R&D on the most abundant,
    affordable, efficient and sustainable energy resources and
    technologies possible while strengthening and modernizing our
    national grid.
        The grid of today was designed for large-scale, centralized
    power systems, but with an increasing number of distributed
    energy sources and grid-connected devices come systems
    operations challenges and cyber vulnerabilities.
        NREL researchers are developing security and power
    management design principles for the future grid, one that can
    operate autonomously and support high penetrations of wind,
    solar and other distributed energy resources that operate very
    differently than conventional technologies.
        It is also imperative to look at ways to make our energy
    system more flexible, responsive and resilient. Microgrids are
    one way NREL is exploring to increase overall grid resilience
    by isolating both the impact of threats and the magnitude of
    recovery efforts. Decades of work at NREL has driven
    unprecedented advances in solar technologies. And while
    innovation is happening at a record pace, further research is
    needed for solar to reach its full potential.
        The time is right to accelerate research into materials
    such as perovskites, that can be used to produce solar cells
    quickly and inexpensively using proven, high-speed
    manufacturing techniques. The same focus is needed on
    concentrating solar power which promises to be cost-competitive
    with significant amounts of energy storage using new field
    designs, advanced manufacturing concepts and novel materials.
        In wind, we are collaborating with universities, other
    national laboratories and industry to drive innovations that
    promise to produce energy at half the cost of current wind
    generation in the United States. To achieve this goal, we are
    working to increase the size of turbines at the heights at
    which they sit to sizable, scientific and engineering
    challenges that could create the largest rotating machine ever
    built. Research is also needed into new materials at advanced
    manufacturing techniques for onsite turbine blade production
    that will reduce cost, speed, deployment and allow for the
    harvesting of our best wind resources.
        Bio energy continues to represent a significant opportunity
    for a sustainable, low-carbon energy and fuels. Key to this
    area is the development of infrastructure, compatible fuel
    technologies from biomass that enable affordable, low-carbon
    gasoline, diesel and short-range alternatives which we have
    been achieving in collaboration with industry partners.
        Recently, we signed a $100 million, ten-year agreement with
    the National Energy Technology Laboratory and Exxon Mobil to
    research ways to bring biofuels and carbon capture and storage
    to commercial scale across the transportation, power generation
    and industrial sectors. Combined efforts like these could
    expand the U.S. energy portfolio and strategy.
        So in conclusion, national labs such as NREL, along with
    our partners, are engines for America's innovation. These are
    the institutions that keep our nation in the leadership role on
    the world's scientific stage. It is therefore crucial for
    economic and national security that we maintain our leadership
    in this area by supporting advancing our national lab system.
    If we do not, it is certain that our nation's competitors will
    be waiting to step in and take our place.
        Thank you so much.
        [The prepared statement of Dr. Keller follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you, Dr. Keller.
        Mr. Conant, welcome.

               STATEMENT OF DAN CONANT, FOUNDER AND CEO,
                              SOLAR HOLLER

        Mr. Conant. Thank you, Senator Murkowski, Senator Manchin,
    for inviting me, and all the members of the Committee.
        I'm honored and humbled today to be able to represent a new
    industry that's growing rapidly in Appalachia. And today I
    wanted to share a couple of stories with you, the story of how
    we re-imagined who solar is for, the story of how we started
    training the first generation of solar installers in Appalachia
    and a couple of points about what Congress can do to help
    further our mission of bringing clean, renewable energy within
    reach of everybody.
        My name is Dan Conant. I'm the Founder and CEO of Solar
    Holler. We're based in my hometown of Shepherdstown, population
    1,500, and we also have operations in Huntington, West
    Virginia. I also come to you as a former advisor to the U.S.
    Department of Energy's SunShot Initiative.
        For generations, Appalachia has powered American prosperity
    with coal. And at Solar Holler we are doing everything we can
    to ensure that we continue powering America for the next 100
    years, just this time with their sunshine.
        From the moment I moved back to my hometown to start up our
    company six years ago, we have relentlessly pursued innovative
    approaches that make solar the most affordable source of energy
    for all of our neighbors across Appalachia. Due to this
    dedication and approach, we are a rapidly growing team of
    incredibly dedicated, talented and passionate folks. In the
    past year, we've grown from 10 staff to 35, which might not
    sound like a lot but it is a huge deal in rural West Virginia
    to have a growing company of 35. Our team models, designs,
    finances and builds beautiful solar projects that are going to
    last for generations while helping families, non-profits and
    businesses across our region cut their power bills.
        Our dedication to making solar the most affordable source
    of energy for the folks who need it most was shown in our very
    first project, a groundbreaking community effort with my
    congregation at the Shepherdstown Presbyterian Church. That
    project was so cool because of a first-of-its-kind crowdfunding
    approach where we never asked for a dime from anybody, instead
    we asked people to let us install a remote control on their
    electric water heaters.
        We had 100 water heaters in our tiny little town. One
    hundred families and businesses agreed to support the project
    by letting us aggregate a network of water heaters into a
    virtual power plant on the PJM grid where turning the water
    heaters on and off every two seconds with fluctuations of the
    frequency regulation market. And then we're using the revenues
    from this power plant to fund a revolving loan fund to support
    solar on churches and homeless shelters and other amazing
    community organizations around our state.
        The Chairman. Let me just tell you, that is cool.
        Mr. Conant. Thank you.
        The very first project with Shepherdstown Presbyterian
    would have cost the congregation over $50,000, instead it cost
    them $1 and we launched it five years ago. Over 25 years, it's
    going to save the church over $100,000. That's $100,000 that
    can go toward the mission of the congregation which is to
    clothe and care for and feed our neighbors.
        We had to get that creative and develop an approach like
    that because when we attempted to do the first power purchase
    agreement in West Virginia, we were prevented from doing so by
    the West Virginia Public Service Commission because it was at
    odds with our state granted utility monopolies and without
    those PPAs, the IRS has ruled that solar projects on non-
    profits are ineligible for the federal investment tax credits.
    Additionally, the USDA Rural Energy for America program which
    administers loan guarantees and grants for businesses across
    rural America, they specifically will not support any non-
    profit project. So we just had to get creative with what we had
    to work with.
        But word in West Virginia got around fast that this was a
    really cool project and things were happening. So within a week
    we actually outstripped the capacity of everybody who knows how
    to install solar in West Virginia. It took us less than one
    week to get there.
        In 2015 we launched Rewire Appalachia, a workforce
    development and training program, in partnership with Coalfield
    Development Corporation. Through this collaboration we've given
    young folks whose families have been in the mines for
    generations a hand up into the solar industry. We invest in
    their Associates Degrees at the local community college. We
    paid for their electrical journey worker courses. We enrolled
    them in their NABCEP solar certification training work, and
    they got to join our full-time crews earning real living wages
    as we went around deploying projects on non-profits around West
    Virginia.
        At Solar Holler we like to say it takes all kinds to pull a
    solar project off. Of course, you need the talented
    electricians and roofers but it also takes designers,
    engineers, warehouse workers, procurements, project managers.
    It really takes all kinds to pull these projects off.
        And ever since then, we've been building that entire supply
    chain, that entire industry from scratch, even in the coal
    fields of West Virginia.
        Yeah, so, that's a little bit about our story, and I'd look
    forward to taking questions from you all later.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Conant follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Conant, that is an impressive
    story and one very important for this Committee to hear. We
    appreciate the innovation.
        Dr. Hartke, welcome.

               STATEMENT OF DR. JASON HARTKE, PRESIDENT,
                        ALLIANCE TO SAVE ENERGY

        Dr. Hartke. Thank you, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member
    Manchin, members of the Committee. Thank you for the
    opportunity to testify today.
        We greatly appreciate the Committee's bipartisan leadership
    and strong focus on energy efficiency as a leading solution to
    our nation's energy and environmental challenges.
        The Alliance, as many of you know, has a long history in
    energy policy. We've been part of every major bipartisan energy
    efficiency bill enacted into law since our founding in 1977,
    and we're honored to have an honorary board made up of 14
    Members of Congress, several of whom serve on this Committee,
    including the Chairwoman, Senator Alexander and Senator Wyden.
        On a personal note, I just wanted to mention that my
    grandfather, Vance Hartke, also had the high honor of serving
    in the Senate, representing the great State of Indiana for 18
    years. I just have a deep appreciation and respect for this
    legislative body and the work you do in your public service.
        As President of the Alliance, I'm humbled by the enormous
    opportunity in front of us to transform our energy sector
    through energy efficiency and I'm proud of the progress we've
    made.
        Energy efficiency is the absolute workhorse of clean
    energy. No solution is more potent, more compelling or more
    multifaceted. In fact, if it weren't for our efficiency gains
    over the last 40 years, the United States would be using 60
    percent more energy right now--60 percent. Think about how much
    money your constituents are saving as a result of those gains
    and think about the economic growth and the new jobs that have
    been created in communities in every corner of the country.
        Today, the energy efficiency has grown dramatically
    accounting for 2.3 million jobs and making up nearly 70 percent
    of all clean energy jobs. Nearly half a million of these jobs
    can be found in the states represented by the members of this
    Committee alone.
        And we know we would not be here, where we are today,
    without the many key federal energy programs and policies,
    policies that you guys pioneered. But I'm here to tell you the
    opportunities ahead are even greater than our past
    accomplishments.
        This is particularly notable in the context of climate
    change. Energy efficiency is the fastest, cheapest and largest
    tool we have for reducing emissions. According to IEA, as
    Senator Manchin mentioned, energy efficiency will need to be
    more than 40 percent of the solution to meet the goals of the
    Paris Accord. Put another way, it's virtually impossible to
    achieve even modest carbon reduction goals without robust gains
    in energy efficiency.
        The good news is that energy efficiency policy solutions
    double as powerful economic policy. With efficiency we can
    tackle climate change while simultaneously strengthening the
    economy. And there are many actions that we would advocate that
    this Committee take to seize this opportunity.
        Most immediately, we have to protect the policies we have
    in place today like minimum efficiency standards, the
    Weatherization Assistance Program and critical R&D investments
    that drive efficiency throughout the economy. I'm convinced
    that EERE's leadership and professional staff have the
    expertise and the ability to do their job as Congress intended,
    but this Committee can play an important role in making sure
    their work is done on time, in compliance with the law and
    absent political interference.
        Perhaps the most obvious examples of this need for
    oversight concerns the 16 energy conservation standards that
    have missed statutory deadlines and the ill-advised proposal to
    roll back light bulb standards set to take effect in January.
    This Committee should exercise its oversight responsibility to
    help get these overdue standards back on track.
        We would also encourage the Committee to take up and pass
    bipartisan legislation to advance opportunities in energy
    efficiency across sectors. I've highlighted several specific
    bipartisan bills in my written testimony that would deliver
    savings and help lower emissions: the Portman-Shaheen Energy
    Efficiency bill which is undergoing updates right now and is
    likely to be introduced very soon; the All-of-the-Above Federal
    Building Energy Conservation Act which Senator Hoeven and
    Senator Manchin have sponsored; and the Weatherization
    Enhancement and Local Energy Efficiency Investment and
    Accountability Act introduced by Alliance Honorary Advisors,
    Senator Coons and Senator Collins.
        Some of these bills could also easily be included as part
    of an infrastructure package because infrastructure includes
    our utility grid. It includes buildings. It includes water and
    wastewater facilities, transit hubs, public buildings and many
    other structures. Being smart and forward thinking about
    infrastructure presents the opportunity to get it right, now,
    and then save consumers and taxpayers decades in energy costs.
        To close, I'd say again, that now is the time to double
    down on energy efficiency. It is a veritable energy bonanza, as
    my friend, Amory Lovins, from the great State of Colorado likes
    to say. But we're not moving fast enough, largely because we
    don't always see efficiency.
        Senator Murkowski, I think you mentioned part of that
    underestimating energy efficiency. But at a fearless pace,
    technology is unlocking new and even greater potential through
    smart meters, smart buildings, integrated design and connected
    devices. So while efficiency may be hard to see, the
    opportunity is clear.
        The Alliance looks forward to working with you to ensure we
    realize the full potential of energy efficiency, America's
    greatest energy resource.
        Thank you again for inviting me to testify. I'm happy to
    take any questions.
        [The prepared statement of Dr. Hartke follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you, Dr. Hartke.
        Mr. Grunau, welcome to the Committee.

      STATEMENT OF BRUNO C. GRUNAU, CHIEF PROGRAMS OFFICER, COLD
                    CLIMATE HOUSING RESEARCH CENTER

        Mr. Grunau. Good morning, thank you, and thank you, Senator
    Murkowski, for the opportunity to come up here and share our
    story with you and the rest of the Committee and these really
    talented folks here on this panel.
        Our mission at the Cold Climate Housing Research Center is
    to advance energy efficient, sustainable, durable and
    sustainable shelter throughout Alaska and across the
    circumpolar North. And the way we do that is through advancing
    applied research and innovation through demonstration.
        As Senator Murkowski mentioned before, one of our accolades
    is that we're able to work with communities, take a holistic
    approach of working with some of our communities across Alaska
    to design culturally appropriate and energy efficient homes
    that use 80 percent less energy than their neighbor next door
    at the same or less construction cost of the neighbor next
    door.
        We also have a 25,000 square foot research test facility.
    It's the farthest north LEED Platinum building in the world,
    and we're proud of that.
        We also work with communities across Alaska to help with
    climate change situations. The community of Newtok, for
    instance, is falling into the sea, so we're helping them
    rebuild, working with them to rebuild their community in
    Mertarvik and make sure they have good energy efficient homes.
        I know a lot of times when we look in the Lower 48, we talk
    about building advancements and, quite frankly, in Alaska,
    that's just a way of life for a lot of our builders. In a lot
    of ways, we're building houses today as we did 50 or even 100
    years ago and buildings do take up about 40 percent of our
    nation's energy. And that's just a huge untapped potential out
    there to lower energy demand.
        And as I heard Senator Manchin say before, energy
    efficiency really is the low-hanging fruit. In fact, it's the
    backbone really on which we can build our renewable energy
    infrastructure.
        The thing about energy efficiency is it doesn't quite have
    that shine that renewable energy has, you know? You put a solar
    collector on a roof, you're making a statement. People can see
    it and people can see your values, but energy efficiency, not
    quite so much.
        And again, you have two houses that look identical, one can
    pay two or three times the amount of energy that the other does
    and the only thing to show for that are energy bills.
        Demonstrating what's available really is the key. If you
    come in--and I invite everyone here to come to the research
    center--I'd love to give you a tour. We would give you a tour
    of ground source heat pumps that work in permafrost, our
    photovoltaic systems and what we know about how they work up in
    Alaska. A seasonal thermal storage energy system that we've
    got, and we can show you all those things.
        But if there are three things I'd want you to walk away
    with is that when you build your house, you want a good energy,
    a good building envelope that's the right amount of insulation
    of the right configurations. You want it nice and tight, and
    you want good ventilation. Those are the three most important
    things that achieve energy efficiency. And all of that combined
    doesn't just impact energy bills, it also impacts health. If
    you build the building right, then you're going to create a
    house that has less mold, better air quality and reduce costs,
    health costs, to the state.
        As a matter of fact, in rural Alaska we have some of the
    highest, the highest incidence of respiratory infection in the
    country. One hospital visit in rural Alaska due to unhealthy
    housing, by the way, is about $22,000. That's work that came
    out of Alaska Native Tribal Health Consortium here this year.
        And since we're on money, we can talk about economic
    impacts. In Alaska we had a ten-year program, it's called the
    Home Energy Rebate Program. It was a $242 million program using
    existing technology and it covered about 26,000-27,000 homes.
    But with that $242 million investment, it resulted in reduced
    energy costs of $261 million. It reduced the energy of those
    homes by 34 percent. It reduced greenhouse gases by 3.2 billion
    pounds of carbon dioxide. It stimulated 7,000 annual jobs and
    over $900 million in economic stimulus. It's almost $1 billion,
    and the state has about a $4 billion annual budget. It's huge.
        Other opportunities that we can increase energy efficiency
    is through LED lighting, as was mentioned earlier. We found
    that we estimated about $20 million of annual savings can be
    achieved by upgrading from linear fluorescents to LED lighting
    just in our public facilities in Alaska.
        But since we're here to talk about energy efficiency, I
    really wanted to underscore that part of the advancements of
    energy efficiency is getting the mechanisms out there to use
    what's available.
        But as far as what's ahead of us, there are two
    technologies I'd like to highlight. One is air source heat
    pumps. Air source heat pumps are changing right now. You can
    get air source heat pumps on the market that work to minus 15
    degrees Fahrenheit. It's incredible. We worked with Oak Ridge
    National Laboratory a couple years ago, two years ago, and
    demonstrated an air source heat pump that worked at minus 25
    degrees Fahrenheit. That's pretty impressive.
        I know in Kotzebue, a small rural community in Northwest
    Alaska, there's a demonstration project where we're
    incorporating air source heat pumps and it's calculated to,
    when you use the air source heat pumps in the shorter seasons,
    it's calculated to reduce the total energy cost by about 30
    percent. So that's a big deal.
        And then the last thing, really what we need in terms of
    advancing energy efficiency is to evaluate, research and
    demonstrate these new building technologies and building
    materials that are out here.
        I brought one example with me today. This is a vacuum
    insulated panel. It has an R value of R-60 per inch, R-60 per
    inch. Your 2x4 wall with fiberglass is about R-11. It's a game
    changer, quite frankly. With materials like this we just have
    to figure out, and I'm happy to pass this around, we've got to
    figure out ways to integrate this into our buildings. Some
    commercial uses are starting to use this, but we need to get
    these into our homes now.
        Quite frankly, I think that if we stay on this path it
    won't be long before we look back and we'll be appalled at how
    in 2019 we had used 40 percent of our energy on buildings.
        So anyway, I'm looking forward to the opportunity to talk
    with you all, and thanks for the opportunity to be here today.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Grunau follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you, Bruno.
        I know that Senator Manchin has a question. He says, how do
    you keep it tight and ventilated, but we know that that has
    been one of our challenges and you all have really pioneered
    it.
        I am going to defer my question here to allow Senator
    Gardner to go first.
        Senator Gardner.
        Senator Gardner. Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you
    to the witnesses, again, for your time and testimony. I
    appreciate the ability to ask questions now so we can go off to
    another committee.
        Dr. Keller, as households and companies reap the benefits
    of innovations you talked about in your opening statement,
    particularly in distributed energy resources--rooftop solar,
    smart efficient devices--it increases the number of access
    points for cybersecurity concerns, as you talked about.
        Could you talk a little bit more about the collaborative
    efforts to conduct both the DER, Distributed Energy Resource,
    research and cybersecurity research that is being done at NREL
    or other national labs? Could you talk a little bit about that
    and just talk about how we ``bake in'' cybersecurity into our
    research and development so that when it is good to go, it is
    good to go security wise as well?
        Dr. Keller. Thank you, Senator.
        You bring up a very, very important topic, and I tell you
    this, when people ask me what keeps me up at night, this is
    exactly one of them. When you see how we are moving with our
    grid architecture, that there's all these changes, that we have
    a more distributed grid--a grid will go bidirectional. People--
    you know, when you have solar panels you want to check what
    you're using, how much you produce, and so on. So suddenly
    you're recreating a lot of new vulnerabilities for our security
    and cyber elements which we did not have a couple years ago.
        And that's why we are reaching out. Historically, NREL
    probably was not known to be in the cyber world. But that's
    what we felt was a very, very important element to move into
    the space, partner with other national laboratories such as
    Sandia or Oak Ridge or Idaho to come from the distributed side
    and help how we can close this gap.
        I think the cybersecurity outlook is changing right now. We
    are pretty good to secure the grid as we have it right now. But
    the grid of the future will be very different, and that's where
    we need to also develop new cybersecurity measurements.
        I've been working on what you call autonomous grid systems.
    So the future of the grid will very likely be driven by machine
    learning or by artificial intelligence which will enable a lot
    of new control mechanisms for the grid. This said, it also will
    bring new threats to the grid and that's why we have to be
    ahead.
        And may I say this, when you work in cyber, the problem is
    you're on this journey but you will never reach your goal
    because it's constantly evolving. You always have to be ahead
    and that, in my view, will be, will keep the researchers here
    very, very busy, the scientists, for a long time to come.
        Senator Gardner. Very good, thank you and congratulations
    on the $100 million agreement with NETL and Exxon Mobil. I
    think this is an incredible opportunity. And thank you for the
    collaborative research and development effort, the approach for
    R&D that you have taken at NREL, our labs and other
    universities.
        What does this mean? I mean, how does this work and what
    does this do to DOE? Does it take it in a different direction?
    Does it continue to fulfill the mission? What does this
    agreement mean to you?
        Dr. Keller. So we are very excited about this agreement. We
    just had the official signing ceremony earlier today at DOE
    headquarters.
        This is where two or three parties are coming together
    which brings a lot of new ideas to this. I mean, when you look
    at our research and what Exxon Mobil is very, very good at is
    how you scale things into the market.
        So when you look into the new lower emission technologies,
    a lot of times universities and the schools like to do the work
    on the very small scales. And then the question is how do you
    take the small scales and how to scale it that they have an
    impact in our economy and the resulting industry?
        And this is what this agreement will do. That's also why we
    have this ten-year agreement that you can start at low tier
    levels with brand new ideas but then the agreement is to bring
    people from the national lab complexes. It's beyond even NREL
    and NETL, we are also reaching out to Idaho and to any other
    national laboratory that has great ideas. We're also going to
    reach out to academics with great ideas to bring them in and
    then work together in this--how can you take some of this early
    stage research and how can you scale it together with the
    engineers from Exxon and our scientists.
        So, our scientists, we're excited about this because
    suddenly you can have an industrial partner who knows exactly
    what is relevant, what we can do by bringing this together,
    working as a team to take this and scale ideas.
        Senator Gardner. Thank you.
        Dr. Hartke, thank you very much for the shout out of the
    Energy Savings Performance Contracting legislation. Senator
    Coons and I do plan to introduce that in early June. Obviously
    interested in the efficiency issues both from an economic and
    environmental perspective, the EIA has singled out energy
    efficiency as contributing more than 50 percent. I think this
    is an incredible statistic. The EIA has singled out energy
    efficiency as contributing more than 50 percent of our nation's
    reduction in carbon emissions over the past decade.
        So this is something that is not just a tool for people to
    save a little bit of money. We have actually reduced carbon 50
    percent because of energy efficiencies. And we can do a lot
    more than just what we are doing right now. And that number,
    that 50 percent reduction, is more than fuel switching and
    renewable energy generation combined. So that is a pretty
    powerful tool that we have been able to capture with a lot more
    work and potential.
        Could you talk a little bit--I guess I am out of time. So
    we will carry this conversation on at some point. I got excited
    here, sorry about that.
        And Dan, certainly thank you for the work you are doing on
    the Flat Irons campus as well.
        Thanks very much.
        The Chairman. Dr. Hartke, if you want to give a quick
    response to that? I mean, this is----
        Senator Gardner. I didn't get my question out, so----
        [Laughter.]
        The Chairman. Well, I know but, we kind of knew where you
    were headed, Senator Gardner.
        Dr. Hartke. Well, it is a tremendous statistic. And I think
    that, you know, federal buildings account--we pay $6 billion a
    year on utility bills for federal buildings alone.
        So federal buildings ought to be a leader. There's an
    amazing tool that you know all too well in energy service
    performance contracting (ESPC) that is an amazing deal for the
    American taxpayer. Doesn't cost them any money to do these
    energy improvements.
        Those energy improvements work. They save taxpayers money,
    and they make sure that we're leading on energy efficiency and
    other clean energy solutions which is exactly how it should be.
        In addition, there's other statistics that show, I think,
    for every $10 million invested through ESPCs, we're creating
    100 jobs. So all that investment that we're doing that doesn't
    cost the taxpayer any money, in fact, saves them money, is
    creating jobs.
        So, I would, you know, do agree that we're in whatever
    gear. If we can get into a higher gear on those types of
    solutions, that's exactly what we should be doing. I mean, it
    really is a tremendous solution.
        The Chairman. Thank you for that, Dr. Hartke.
        I do think we recognize that we have an extraordinary
    opportunity to lead with our federal buildings. I happen to
    think that we are lousy in this category.
        I know that we have done a good job with the lights, but I
    think when we can figure out how to get men's summer attire
    just a little bit loosened up then we won't require so much air
    conditioning.
        Senator Heinrich. I am with you.
        The Chairman. And the women can be a little more, I guess,
    we don't need space heaters under our desk in order to wear a
    summer dress.
        So know that this is my little mission. I have not made
    much headway with it but, by gosh, when you guys are wearing
    long sleeve shirts, undershirts, ties, socks and leather shoes
    and it is 90 degrees, it does not make sense. I am just saying.
        Senator Gardner. Madam Chair, unfortunately, the hot air in
    Congress is anthropogenic.
        [Laughter.]
        The Chairman. Okay, let's go to Senator Manchin.
        Senator Manchin. ----to Senator Heinrich, who has another
    commitment.
        Senator Heinrich. I will start by saying, sign me up for
    the no tie caucus. I am with you.
        I think, first, we should say that the cheapest energy
    around is conservation, right? The kilowatt-hour, the megawatt-
    hour that you don't have to pay for is the cheapest energy out
    there.
        I want to go from that to what is next cheapest and this is
    a little chart I had on my desk this morning, so I grabbed it
    and I modified it with updated data and brought it over.
        [The chart referenced follows:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Heinrich. Basically, what it shows is the trend
    line of how PV renewables have gotten cheaper over time and
    where we are on a levelized basis between nuclear and then coal
    and then combined cycle natural gas and now, renewables dipping
    below that.
        So the challenge is not so much, at this point, the
    economics of decarbonizing our grid. It is how do we manage
    that grid to maximize its resilience to make sure it is
    reliable and to maximize penetration.
        I wanted to start by addressing something that Mr. Simmons
    brought up which is this idea of using our existing storage in
    hydro as more of a storage resource. In the past we really have
    not done that. We have managed it very differently. We need to
    think about how we use that resource to really balance the grid
    in contrast to how we have used it historically. I would just
    ask you, what are the policy changes that need to happen for
    that to change? And do we need to change our rate structures to
    support that kind of a change?
        Mr. Simmons. Thank you for that question.
        Last week I had the opportunity to attend the World
    Hydropower Congress, and much of the discussion there, much of
    the focus, was how can we use hydropower better? ``We,'' being
    the world. How can we use hydropower better to balance the grid
    of the future?
        And there was a lot of discussion around this. I don't know
    if we need, necessarily, new policies. However, what we need to
    understand and what people that run the grid need to understand
    are the value of the different types of generating resources.
        In the past a pumped hydro facility may run twice a day.
    Some of these facilities are now being called on 60 times a
    day. But even if I remember that wrong and it's only 30 times a
    day or only 10 times a day, that's still many times more than
    it has been in the past. So this is some important research
    that we are doing, both understanding how that changes the
    operation of maintenance of those sorts of plants.
        But also some of the other important research that we're
    doing is trying to understand value to the grid that hydro and
    other types of generating services provide.
        Senator Heinrich. Is either NREL or DOE, writ large, really
    diving deep at this point on how we can also bring to bear new
    tools like AI and machine learning to balance that grid on a
    moment-by-moment basis?
        Mr. Simmons. Without a doubt, and I'll definitely let
    Martin talk to that.
        Dr. Keller. So we're looking into this again. When you look
    into the future, we will have tens of millions of devices on
    our grid which you can control. All this will be power
    electronics. There was even a light bulb, but it will be power
    electronics.
        Senator Heinrich. I heard what you can do with 100 water
    heaters. Imagine what we could do with tens of millions of
    devices.
        Dr. Keller. Correct, correct.
        The problem is right now that we don't have the tool
    actually to use in these devices to control the grid. When you
    look and extrapolate this out, maybe controlling our grid will
    not work for so many devices. And that's why we engaged into
    this what we call ``autonomous grid.'' There's a researcher who
    would say, how could you bring some new algorithms, some
    machine learning tools into this that you can use actually all
    these devices to come up with the grid architecture and do the
    grid control mechanisms for the future? This is what we engage
    in right now.
        Senator Heinrich. I am going to run out of time quickly as
    well, but Dr. Keller, talk to us a little bit about
    perovskites. You mentioned them in your testimony. Where are
    they on the path to commercialization and why does it matter?
        Dr. Keller. So, perovskites is a very interesting molecule
    because if we can work out, I mean there's still some research
    topics we have to overcome, the biggest one is still stability.
    So perovskites are known that they are sensitive to moisture so
    they're losing their effectiveness over time. If you, assuming
    we can overcome this issue, suddenly it would open a completely
    new way of manufacturing solar panels in the future.
        So we always talk about this, they can use perovskites
    almost like you have solar panels. You would make them like you
    make newspaper. It's an ink. You can spread them out. They're a
    very thin film. And this can open up solar to everything. So we
    could have solar in every device, in also, especially for our
    defense. It's very important for fort bases. It's very
    lightweight.
        Senator Heinrich. Clothing, backpacks, tents.
        Dr. Keller. Correct, everything. It's completely flexible.
        So this can be a step function revolution, how we make
    solar panels in the future.
        Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
        Mr. Grunau, and this will also be to you, Dr. Hartke, and
    pretty much anybody here on the panel. We had good discussion
    today in highlighting the reduction in energy cost to families
    as a result of gains that we are making in efficiencies.
        When we think about those who are most impacted by the
    higher cost of energy, it really is the most vulnerable in our
    society, whether it is elders or the poor. And when we have
    some important federal programs, the Weatherization Program has
    been mentioned, we see great benefit of that in Alaska. We have
    state energy programs. Those programs that can help maximize
    efficiency standards.
        But if you had your magic wand here in terms of the area
    that you could make the biggest impact on effectiveness from
    the Federal Government's perspective in helping low income
    households reduce energy costs, where is it?
        You know, in a cold place like Alaska, it seems to me, the
    easy place is the weatherization and the insulation so that you
    don't have to spend so much more. Maybe in the south, it is you
    don't, again, these efficiencies allow you to live more
    comfortably, not die of heat stroke in hot places. Where is the
    most exciting potential that you think we have a role to play
    from the Federal Government's perspective that can make a
    difference for those that are more energy vulnerable?
        Bruno, do you want to start?
        Mr. Grunau. I'm happy to go first. That's a great question.
    I really appreciate that.
        You mentioned the Weatherization Program, and it is
    absolutely a great example of what does work. It hits the low-
    income bracket because I think the average income for that
    program is like $28,000 a year. So that really does work out
    well.
        There's a gap of folks who, kind of, need the help who
    can't afford, say, that home energy rebate program we've got.
        The Chairman. Right.
        Mr. Grunau. There are folks who can afford that. There are
    some who go into that program and they can't afford the whole
    retrofit process. And so, those are people that we kind of need
    to help, sort of, support.
        I want to just build on the backs of some of the programs
    that EERE and the Office of Indian Energy have put out that's
    actually helping rural Alaska build capacity in a lot of rural
    communities there.
        So what I mean by that is, in fact, there are people in
    town right now, this week, presenting on the outcomes of some
    of these projects where we go into the villages and we do
    energy audits for tribal buildings. And then that gives them an
    energy plan to help move forward. I think that's a big step
    forward.
        It's kind of like, you know, in your own home you know a
    couple things you could do to make your house more efficient,
    but really you need pros to come out there. And so, that's
    where, I think, that's a magic wand thing I would like to say
    is support continued programs that help that endeavor.
        I'd also say just education, education of the, not just
    homeowners, but homebuilders. If we can get some of these
    technologies, and I'm talking just basic building methods that
    are energy efficient, into the hands of our builders and maybe
    through codes. I mean, that's a great one because, of course,
    Alaska doesn't have statewide codes.
        The Chairman. Let me ask about that one, and I will open
    this up to everybody because I think it was you, Dr. Hartke
    that said, we don't always see the benefits of efficiency but
    it is clear that the opportunity is there. I thought that that
    was well put. And it goes back to education.
        So much of this is people just don't know how they can make
    a difference or they say, me changing out my light bulbs to
    LED, that is not going to make a difference. I am not going to
    be able to change the world or save the world today.
        So in addition to the magic wand, because I agree,
    education has to be a significant component of this. The
    Alliance to Save Energy, I mean, that is kind of what you do,
    but we are not doing it enough if we are still seeing 40
    percent of the power generation that is going toward our
    buildings. What do we need more there?
        Dr. Hartke. I'll just chime in quickly, a couple points.
        One, and this speaks in part to your question which is a
    big, big question. Since the end of 2017 we have not had
    incentives for energy efficiency. They expired at the end of,
    you know, now almost a year and a half ago. And making sure
    that we are continuing to drive behavior toward high-
    performance products and homes makes a difference. I think it's
    a market signal that reaches everybody.
        On the flip side, how do you have a policy, a Federal
    Government role that does reach everybody? I don't think
    there's any better example than standards. Standards has been
    an engine for innovation and a program, I mean, one of the
    greatest energy efficiency polices ever completed, it's now
    saving us over $2 trillion. And that reaches everybody.
        Because the problem, I think, with your question is how do
    you construct a policy that does get to the folks who would
    benefit most from those energy savings? And that's tough to do
    in part because there are a variety of structural barriers and
    there's split incentive barriers.
        So it's hard if you're a tenant or you're a renter, you
    might want to have more energy efficiency and benefit from
    those energy savings, but they would actually go to the
    landlord. So how do you overcome those barriers is a big deal.
        And then last, I would just underscore the role of
    education. It's huge.
        I just saw this full spread piece in the Washington Post
    that was talking about all these home retrofits and retrofits
    that you could do. You could do your bathroom, your kitchen,
    all these other things for a $300 blower door test. You could
    map out a whole slew of energy efficiency improvements that
    would save you money. So education still is a big hurdle.
        And then last but not least, the Weatherization Program.
    It's a hugely successful government program. It reaches the
    most vulnerable. It saves almost, on average, $300 to those
    families a year. Those savings are cumulative.
        So there's ways to either amplify that program and also
    ways to modernize that program so it could go deeper in terms
    of those energy savings. I think that would be tremendous as
    well.
        The Chairman. Okay.
        I am well over my time, but I see Mr. Conant is just
    itching to jump in here. So, if I may?
        Mr. Conant. Yup, thank you.
        From the solar side, one of the biggest challenges we run
    up against in our work with low income West Virginians is that
    the biggest solar incentive in the country is the investment
    tax credit. Unfortunately, that is based on someone's income.
        The Chairman. Right.
        Mr. Conant. So for anyone that is at the average West
    Virginian family income or below, they're not able to take that
    tax credit in one year.
        The Chairman. Yes.
        Mr. Conant. It would take multiple years of dragging it
    out.
        And so, particularly, when we get calls from retirees or
    the like, it's every other day we're getting a call from
    someone who lives in manufactured housing and has a $600
    monthly electric bill, and we start talking with them. We just
    can't help them because this tax incentive does absolutely no
    good for them. Same thing on the non-profit side.
        So if I had my magic wand, I'd really focus in on how do we
    expand the eligibility of that tax credit, whether it's through
    making it refundable or some other mechanism to make sure that
    we're not only sending our incentive dollars toward higher
    income folks.
        The Chairman. I appreciate you bringing that up. I think I
    want to talk about that a little bit more on the second round.
        Senator Manchin.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        I think to both Dans here, Mr. Simmons and Mr. Conant in
    West Virginia, when I was governor, we did an energy portfolio
    and with that we had net metering back. Since then, the
    legislature and the current governor have repealed or
    undermined those policies, making it very difficult on some of
    the things we were trying to accomplish.
        At the federal level you are talking about the tax
    incentives and things that go with this. So for each of you,
    where do you see the best mix of policies? The best mix
    because, in our state being a heavy extraction state, there is
    a lot of things that are preventing us from moving forward. And
    I understand it, but you know, the market is the market. The
    market has got to move, and we are impeding that.
        Where do you think the level for the deployment of
    renewable energy technologies is? And do you all, any of you
    all, see renewables ever being baseload? So whichever Dan wants
    to start first?
        Dan? West Virginia Dan.
        Mr. Conant. One point of correction. Net metering was not
    repealed by the state. There was----
        Senator Manchin. They tried to and they didn't. But let me
    tell you right now----
        Mr. Conant. There was an attempt.
        Senator Manchin. ----the Public Service Commission is
    considering changes to states. I mean, as you know, they are
    right now considering those changes.
        Mr. Conant. Yeah. The current debate in the Public Service
    Commission is regarding the technology behind bidirectional
    meters----
        Senator Manchin. Yes.
        Mr. Conant. ----and whether to require that.
        Senator Manchin. Well, I think what they were saying, they
    always come back at me basically saying, you allow net metering
    back, who is going to pay the bill?
        It is going to raise everybody else's bill. It was only at
    three percent, so we knew it wouldn't affect anybody's bill. We
    wanted to see if it would work. And we've had to fight just to
    keep it in there. And I am hoping you are able to. But I know
    they are making attempts at changing it. But anyway----
        Mr. Conant. I think one of the most powerful things we have
    going for us right now in terms of defending net metering at
    the state level is that we are expanding this beyond the well-
    to-do. It's not just a country club thing. It's a homeless
    shelter thing. It's a----
        Senator Manchin. Well, they start speaking, thank God, that
    is what kept it from being repealed.
        Mr. Conant. Okay.
        Senator Manchin. The policy, basically, it is affecting you
    all and you are just talking briefly about that, and I know
    that Senator Murkowski wanted to talk more about that too.
        But the technology is renewable.
        Mr. Conant. As far as federal policies that can help us,
    even in states that have policy headwinds, I think so much of
    it comes back to the structures that are put in place, either
    for tax credits or also for federal loan and grant programs.
        Senator Manchin. Yes.
        Mr. Conant. So, for instance, with USDA with the Rural
    Energy for America program, great program, covers, it can
    provide grants for up to 25 percent of the system cost for a
    business. But the limitations they put on there are extremely
    disfavorable against any project in a state that doesn't have
    power purchase agreements. And there are 25 states in the
    country that don't allow power purchase agreements that don't
    have a competitive marketplace. So through the restrictions
    that the USDA program development staff have put into place,
    they've really left out a large swath of the country.
        Same thing with the IRS in how they've interpreted the
    investment tax credit rules. They've put lots of restrictions,
    once again, around requiring PPAs which just don't work in West
    Virginia. They don't work in Kentucky.
        So I'd love to see just opening, the Federal Government
    opening up eligibility around those programs.
        Senator Manchin. Well, I would like for all of us, I mean,
    especially those of us in the Senate here, basically in the
    next round of extenders, which is tax credits--I have always
    said in states like ours, who are very heavy extraction states,
    that as we transfer and the market transfers, those credits
    should be given under the condition that a majority of that
    investment, if you are going to take the credits, be used in
    states that have lost the energy jobs.
        I mean, I have a coal miner that can build you the best
    solar power and the best wind power you have ever seen, if they
    had a chance. But the dollars, if the dollars don't force them
    to go there, I think, Mr. Simmons, it falls into your category
    there, if DOE would support something such as that, trying to
    make those dollars move into areas that we had a transition in
    energy market.
        Mr. Simmons. Sure, I mean, Under Secretary Menezes was out
    in Appalachia last week talking about a new kind of ethane
    petrochemical hub that has potential there.
        On the issue on policy for these technologies we're talking
    about today with renewable technologies, I haven't been focused
    too much on policy, but instead, really on technology, to drive
    down the cost, to continue driving down that cost curve and
    then integrating these technologies together so that you can
    actually get calls from, so that Dan can get calls from people
    living in manufactured housing who are thinking about solar
    panels. So that actually, kind of, makes sense for them.
        So that's really what we're focused on is by having a low
    enough cost that really the policies don't matter as much. And
    that's--plus it makes my job easier to focus on technology.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        The Chairman. Senator Hirono.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        I recently visited Vietnam with Chair Murkowski and other
    Senators, and we heard about that country's rapidly growing
    demand for energy and worsening air quality.
        I am glad that NREL--this is a question for Dr. Keller--
    that NREL has worked with the University of Hawaii's Hawaii
    Natural Energy Institute, to help Vietnam develop plans and
    standards to use more renewable power sources.
        I expect you have followed the efforts of China to build
    coal plants in neighboring countries as part of its multi-
    billion-dollar Belt and Road infrastructure initiative which
    will worsen the impacts of climate change for people in the
    United States and everywhere and elsewhere in the world.
        What more could NREL and Congress do to help countries in
    Asia direct their energy developments toward renewable, low-
    carbon sources?
        Dr. Keller.
        Dr. Keller. Senator, thank you.
        You bring up a very, very good topic because when you look
    at this historically, when you look at NREL, we are working
    with about 90 different countries, all over the place. And it
    always depends what country you're dealing with that the level
    of help is very different when you go into it. Some of the
    countries don't even have wind maps or solar maps. So where we
    can help them and show them how you can create some of the very
    basic maps to understanding what resources you have.
        And then it all goes to the path to see how could they
    bring some of this technology in. Some of the countries don't
    have a grid system, so microgrid, very simple from our
    perspective. Solar panels with some small batteries will bring
    electricity to some of these houses.
        So I would say what can we do to further steps into this
    direction, I think it's very important that we, as in our
    opinion, still as, we, as United States, as the world leader in
    some of these innovations, I think we should continue to work
    with some of these countries and show them a path how they
    could move this forward.
        And if you go into some of those countries where their
    people want to have basic electricity, and I think they have a
    right to get this basic electricity, I would argue, building a
    full-scale grid might not always be the best solution. But so,
    if other countries come in and just selling their technology
    and we will not be present, then we're undermining our world
    leading capacity in this area.
        Senator Hirono. So you mentioned 90 different countries. Is
    NREL in Vietnam?
        Dr. Keller. I have to check if we are in Vietnam, but
    again, I said, we are in many different countries. I can get
    back to you and let you know, but I don't know if we are in
    Vietnam.
        Senator Hirono. This is for Secretary Simmons.
        This year's budget for the Energy Efficiency and Renewable
    Energy Office, EERE, includes $353 million that Congress gave
    this entity, this office, last year but that DOE had not yet
    awarded at the time the budget was being put together late last
    year. The office, as Congress intended, has continued to
    allocate the funds to support energy efficiency and renewable
    energy research and development.
        How much of the $353 million that Congress appropriated for
    this office now is obligated to fulfill its mission?
        Mr. Simmons. I would have to get you that exact dollars.
        One key thing is that that money was in the proposed
    request. There are, however, no restrictions that have been
    placed on anyone in the office not to obligate the money that
    was in that proposed rescission. I just want to be very clear
    that we are working hard to obligate all of the dollars
    previously appropriated.
        Senator Hirono. Do you have any sense--the reason the
    question is even brought up is that there is a sense that,
    maybe, that that much of that money has not even been obligated
    and may fall by the wayside.
        So do you have any sense of how much of it--are we talking
    about the vast majority of that money already being obligated
    for its mission?
        Mr. Simmons. Well.
        Senator Hirono. If you don't have a sense, that is okay,
    get back to us, please.
        Mr. Simmons. I don't and I will happily respond, yes.
        Senator Hirono. Another question for Dr. Keller.
        Hawaii is on the cutting edge of incorporating renewable
    power and energy storage. In April, I visited a solar and
    storage facility on Kauai Island which is the largest combined
    solar and storage facility in the world.
        Did you know that? Of course, you did. Okay.
        And there is a Kauai Island utility cooperative which is
    the only co-op, utility co-op, in Hawaii. It enables the co-op
    in Kauai to generate 50 percent of the Island's power from
    renewable sources. A similar project is under development for
    the Pacific Missile Range Facility on Kauai which is a military
    DoD facility and the company has developed a project, AES,
    distributed energy, was able to test a prototype of the project
    at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Colorado.
        What is NREL doing to solve the challenge of bringing large
    amounts of renewable power and storage on to the power grid?
        Dr. Keller. So again, as you mentioned, we have this
    wonderful collaboration with organizations in Hawaii, where
    ease of the energy systems and the gracious facility helped
    Hawaii to, hey, you can really expand the amount of solar and
    the grid still is working well.
        You could have brought up the big issue right now, in my
    opinion, for Hawaii, but for all the many other areas how do
    you then include storage to solar?
        Right now, there is, the battery cost is dropping very
    quickly. I personally am not exactly convinced that lithium
    batteries will be the long-term future for large-scale storage
    on the grid. I think we will need the next generation of
    storage technologies.
        We are working and again, also funded by EERE, what could
    be the next chemistry, will we move to more flow cell
    batteries, will it be different chemistry?
        So there is a lot of research going on in this area to
    decrease the cost of storage because as soon as you will
    decrease this and then combine this with renewables, you open
    up a whole new field to go even to higher penetration.
        Senator Hirono. You know, because you need quite a lot of
    land, in my view, to have all that storage there. I know this
    storage facility on Kauai is lithium, right? So we need to move
    to improve.
        Dr. Keller. So, Hawaii is a very special case because for
    most of the, where you see an increase in renewables, I would
    argue that probably land is not the most stumbling factor in
    respect to storage.
        But the cost of storage is the problem, and how do you
    scale it? And so, this is where we need more research and
    innovation.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Hirono.
        Senator King.
        Senator King. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        As I was jotting my questions down, I realized that every
    one of them, just about, involved perverse incentives. I think
    one of the problems in this whole area is that our whole
    structure of how we pay for and obtain energy was created 100
    years ago and the incentives go in the wrong direction.
        The incentive is on the utility to build things. That is
    how they get paid. It is a rate of return. The more capital
    that you invest, the higher your rate of return for your
    shareholders. So we need to be thinking about how to maintain
    those businesses and a reasonable return for their investors,
    but at the same time, change the incentive so that there is an
    incentive to do renewables.
        Here is an example. The payback on weatherization is
    enormous, I mean, particularly in northern climate states. And
    Mr. Grunau, here is an idea. In my experience, one of the
    barriers to weatherization is the cost, the capital cost, to
    the homeowner. And even though the return may be 100 percent or
    40 percent or some very high number, they don't have the cash
    to make that investment.
        I have heard of cases where the utilities themselves become
    the bank and lend the money to the homeowner to do the
    retrofit, and it is paid back through the utility bill. It
    relieves this whole financing question in its, sort of, neat
    way. Do you have some thoughts about that or how else can we
    incent these kinds of projects?
        Mr. Grunau. Well, for one, I think that's a great idea. We
    had our previous Governor of Alaska, Governor Bill Walker, sign
    an on-bill financing technique like you're talking about. It
    hasn't yet been set up, but what people need is a mechanism to
    be able to afford these things, right, if they're going to
    afford it themselves? I'm just going to say, yeah, that's a
    great idea.
        You know, another thing too is if we could--people don't
    know, people just don't know what they need to do to make their
    house more energy efficient or whatever. So, and we talked, and
    it goes back to the education piece.
        Senator King. Well, let me make a suggestion there.
        Mr. Grunau. Sure.
        Senator King. We now have enormous capacity to process and
    utilize data cheaply in a house. The Prius effect, if you know
    what your house is using for energy and what different
    decisions you make and you can see it, the theory is that Prius
    drivers get about 10 percent additional mileage just because
    they can see what is happening on that little screen.
        If if you hear about me hitting an abutment, it is because
    I was watching the screen and not the road.
        [Laughter.]
        But this would be, you know, a simple device, like a
    thermostat, only it would be data. Here is what you are using.
    Here is what you are using for heat. Here is what you are using
    for electricity. I commend that to you.
        Another problem with incentives is the utility opposition
    to distributed energy, because if you put solar panels on your
    roof and don't use as much energy then the utility loses
    revenue. We have to figure out how to change those incentives.
        Another one that we have not talked about today, I don't
    think, in many places now the cost of transmission and
    distribution exceeds the cost of the energy. And that is a
    significant cost driver in the whole energy picture.
        Again, but the incentive on the utilities, generally, is to
    build more transmission because that is how you--and they are
    not bad people, they are just doing what the market tells them
    to do.
        But we need more incentives for a more efficient use of the
    grid. Time-of-day pricing, so that you use power when it is
    cheap at night. You can flow more kilowatt-hours, for example,
    to charge a car which will lower the cost of distribution and
    transmission because you have more kilowatt-hours upon which to
    use that fixed base of the cost of the transmission. They don't
    have to build any new wires in order to do that.
        So, Mr. Simmons, is that something that you guys are
    looking at? I mean, the grid is one of the most inefficient
    animals on earth. It is like a church built for Christmas and
    Easter and all the pews are empty in the middle of April.
        Do you see what I mean? We built this capacity for the
    hottest day in August, and it has to be there, but most other
    days, and particularly in the middle of the night in the
    winter, you don't need all that capacity. So evening out the
    utilization of the grid would be a much more efficient use of
    that fixed cost asset.
        Mr. Simmons. And this is also one of the things that I'm
    talking about when I talk about greater flexibility in the grid
    overall. As in, one of the ways to deal with flexible
    generation is to have more flexible consumption. As in, for
    buildings to be able to respond to, you know, to increases or,
    really, to respond to what the prices are on the grid.
        Senator King. The market signal, yes.
        Mr. Simmons. And buildings need to have better
    communication technologies. It's also very helpful for those
    buildings to be more energy efficient overall so that the
    buildings are seen as a resource for the grid. But this is a
    real opportunity.
        Senator King. And electric cars might also be the same. I
    mean, it is a distributed storage capacity.
        Mr. Simmons. Exactly. Over 70 percent of electricity is
    consumed in buildings and, at times of peak demand it's over 80
    percent.
        So there is a real opportunity, but we need better
    communication technologies as well as insulation sensors. And
    we are, I mean, that is a large percentage of the work that our
    Building Technology Office is currently doing.
        Senator King. Just two other quick suggestions.
        Dr. Keller, enormous potential in offshore wind. Gigantic
    potential, higher capacity factor, higher efficiencies, fewer
    environmental questions. That's got to be in our thoughts. I
    mean, on both coasts, we happen to be a country that has a lot
    of demand on our coasts.
        And, of course, storage. Storage is the whole deal in terms
    of integration of renewables and I agree with you, I don't
    necessarily think lithium batteries are a long-term answer. But
    if we can crack economic storage, then solar, then there is no
    barrier to solar and wind.
        And hydro, as Senator Heinrich said, can be used. If you
    have storage in hydro, that could be the battery. That is what
    Norway and Denmark are doing right now is swapping power back
    and forth. Wind in Denmark, stored hydro in Norway. So I hope
    that is high on your agenda.
        Dr. Keller. Senator King, I couldn't agree more with you,
    absolutely. And let me just throw something in there, how you
    described the grid, you made the perfect case for a lot of
    utilities looking into their business plans for the future.
        So there's a lot of changes coming along. Very similar how
    you describe that there's a lot of new business opportunities
    just with how Dan described----
        Senator King. We have to provide them with an incentive to
    chase those instead of opposing them.
        Dr. Keller. Yeah, I think the interesting thing is, I don't
    know if it's a necessary incentive or if it's the way we
    structure some of our oversights on the grid. I think this will
    change over the next years, in my opinion.
        Senator King. Thank you.
        Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry I ran over.
        The Chairman. No, no, thank you. It is good conversation.
        Senator Manchin, you wanted to do a wrap-up comment here.
        Senator Manchin. I am just going to wrap up with a comment,
    but I want to thank all of you. It has been extremely
    enlightening for us and very hopeful.
        Both of us, myself and the Chairman here, are both coming
    from extraction states of Alaska and West Virginia. People have
    an impression that we don't want to move things forward or
    climate change is not real. On the contrary, it is real and we
    know it is real and we are seeing effects in all of our
    states--in West Virginia with horrific floodings that we have
    seen, disproportionate levels, and what you are seeing is
    melting of ice and rising sea levels.
        So all these things we are talking about, but there are
    some people today and in discussions you are seeing where they
    want to take positions of eliminating certain sources.
        We are more for innovation and not picking winners and
    losers in the market, but not putting impediments if winners
    and losers don't move forward in the market. And in some of our
    states, we have them as impediments. And also the Federal
    Government has not recognized that there is support that is
    needed if you want to have public buy-in, that you have to have
    a plan going forward. You cannot leave certain areas of this
    country behind.
        The people have done the extraction, have mined the coal or
    did the drilling for the oil and the natural gas. As markets
    change, they have to have opportunities to still survive, and
    that has been so shortsighted.
        I would hope that from the Department of Energy leading the
    charge here and basically giving input back into the White
    House, if you will, the Executive Branch, understanding how we
    can do this in a more balanced way.
        But us, through our tax incentives and our extenders,
    picking winners and losers has not worked because the market is
    what the market is going to be and so people demand. And we are
    going to make sure we are providing those opportunities.
        Thank you all, and we just really appreciate this exchange
    and I hope that we do more of it.
        Thank you.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Manchin.
        I had one more question and you just keyed that up very
    well, because we have talked a lot about those policies that
    will enhance greater efficiencies, greater integration of
    renewals. When I asked if there were certain things the Federal
    Government can do from a policy perspective, we talked about
    R&D, we talked about weatherization. There was mention of
    standards.
        There really has not been much discussion about those
    policies that relate to tax incentives, those that get the
    investors involved or help move things around.
        There is a tax extenders package that is under
    consideration now. I don't happen to sit on that committee, but
    some of those in the media are always asking me questions about
    well, what do you think about tax extenders and solar and wind?
    We have the ITC in the residential solar marketplace that is
    going to disappear completely in 2022.
        Let's have a quick little discussion here from your
    perspective.
        I mention in my opening statement that so many of these
    renewable technologies are really standing on their own now. I
    mentioned the contracts underway for solar in this country and
    what that means.
        Are we beyond that time when wind and solar that have
    enjoyed the benefits of these tax credits for these many years,
    no longer need them? Remember, we had a deal, we were phasing
    things out, but now there is a lot of discussion about, well,
    we didn't really mean that phaseout.
        I am curious to know from your perspective and we have the
    government side, we have the trade association side. And we
    have those that are kind of making it happen on the ground.
    What happens if these tax incentives go away, phase out? Do we
    need more?
        I really appreciate what you have mentioned, Mr. Conant,
    about the impact to the non-profits, the limitations there, the
    limitations that we have when you cannot avail yourself of
    these tax credits because of your income.
        So we have about five minutes here. Let's talk about this
    role that the Federal Government plays, good, bad or otherwise.
    And this is a jump all for you all. Mr. Hartke.
        Dr. Hartke. Well, I'll jump in first.
        I think these tax incentives are invaluable. And I think,
    in the context----
        The Chairman. Well, they have been invaluable. The question
    for us as policymakers is how long do you extend them? How long
    do you give them that advantage?
        Dr. Hartke. Right.
        The Chairman. To use Senator Manchin's term, picking the
    winners and losers.
        Dr. Hartke. Exactly, no, exactly.
        The Chairman. I didn't mean to cut you off there.
        Dr. Hartke. No, I was just about to get into that exact
    point because you're right, when has the market caught up?
        And I think that when, at least on the energy efficiency
    side, when those incentives were first designed and created,
    we've seen, thanks to our good friends down at the other side
    of the dais here, some tremendous innovation.
        So the question is in the context of the threat of climate
    change, which means that we need to move a lot faster. How do
    we get the best technologies available out into the market? And
    I think that there's, that's a tax incentive conversation and
    it's an innovation question.
        We haven't talked much about the Administration and their,
    kind of, laser beam focus on early stage R&D. In my day it was
    RDD&D because demonstration and deployment were just as
    valuable. And as, on the tax incentive side, we know that that
    will increase deployment, that will increase adoption and
    therefore, that will bring down prices and make sure that these
    best available technologies are reaching more people. That, to
    me, is the government role and why they should intervene.
        We know from the McKinsey report of 2009 that best
    available technologies often do sit on the shelf. They don't
    get out. They don't commercialize as easy as we think because
    of all these various market barriers, particularly in energy
    efficiency.
        So tax incentives make a big, big difference. There's a DOE
    analysis that shows just on the 25-C home products tax
    incentive, again, it's expired, but if that were extended for
    10 years it would save consumers, it would save these consumers
    $52 billion. And it would get, again, these best technologies
    out in the market in a time that we need the best available, as
    fast as possible.
        The Chairman. Other comments?
        Mr. Conant.
        Mr. Conant. I would add that we're seeing state-by-state,
    utility-by-utility, the price of solar and wind come down and
    down and get more competitive with fossil fuels.
        However, that is on a state-by-state, utility-by-utility
    basis, where we saw it first in Hawaii and Massachusetts and
    California. But that doesn't mean that it has completely
    reached the Indianas and West Virginias of the world.
        Phasing out the ITC and the PTC at the current, well, I
    can't really speak to the PTC, but as far as the ITC goes,
    phasing it out according to the current schedule would leave us
    with regional disparities that, just as far as where solar will
    make the most sense against the, within the current utility
    structure or public service commission structures. So I would
    be in favor of extending just to give us a little more time to
    make sure that solar is reaching everyone across the country
    and not just the coast.
        The Chairman. Other comments?
        Mr. Simmons, you are framing something there.
        Mr. Simmons. It is a difficult--I do not know if the
    Administration has a position on the issue of the ITC and PTC,
    so that is, I don't want to touch that part.
        These, the ITC and the PTC, definitely help the deployment
    of the resources that utilize them. I talked to the head of EDF
    Renewables last week who was, you know, wondering what is going
    to happen with the PTC for wind since they're one of the
    largest wind developers or wind owners in the United States and
    it would lead, in his opinion, to a reduction of wind
    deployment.
        And but, the question that you ask, I think, is a very
    important question is when do we have that, when do we have a
    level playing field? And that one is one that I can't
    necessarily answer.
        It's one where, at the Department of Energy, well in my
    office, what we're really focused on, you know, we aren't
    focused on beating up on fossil fuels. We're focused on driving
    down the cost of renewables and then letting the market take it
    from there. And so, we have, the Office of Energy Efficiency
    and Renewable Energy, I think, with the help of national labs
    and others, have had tremendous progress in that area in recent
    years.
        Senator King. Madam Chair, could I make a contribution on
    this question?
        The Chairman. Absolutely and, before I yield to you, I just
    want to go back to the point that you made, Mr. Simmons, in
    your testimony several times. You talked about the area that we
    are limiting our self is in the integration. If we have the
    incentives that are there to build it, okay, that is fine, well
    and good, but then how do you get that integrated into the
    broader market?
        Senator King.
        Senator King. I think it is important in having this
    discussion to realize that it is not a level playing field and
    that we are talking about incentives that have been added
    relatively recently for wind and solar, but there are also
    embedded in the tax code, incentives for oil and gas----
        The Chairman. Other energy----
        Senator King. ----and extraction going back 100 years, so
    if we want to, I have always said, yes, let's level the playing
    field, make it level. Let everybody compete.
        But if you have tax incentives on one side and you take
    away on the other side, that is not a level playing field. So
    you are asking the right question, but in analyzing it, we
    really need data on the economic impact of the things like the
    oil depletion allowance and other embedded provisions in the
    tax code that have been there forever and are not as, sort of,
    obvious, as things like the PTC that are of fairly recent
    origin.
        Thank you.
        The Chairman. Fortunately, we are not the Finance Committee
    so that we don't, we are not the committee----
        Senator King. Through some oversight.
        [Laughter.]
        The Chairman. But it is part of the discussion because we
    can focus on the great technologies that are out there, what we
    are doing within R&D. But again, part of what we are trying to
    do is get this out there on the ground and how does our
    conversation then knit together with what Finance and the other
    committees are doing as we really try to gain the advantages
    that these efficiencies can deliver to us.
        I do think that this is an area where we either fail to
    understand and appreciate or to see the benefits that come from
    efficiency. We think that it is not enough to really make a
    difference, and yet this is where the United States really is
    shining.
        I was interested in listening to Senator Hirono's question
    coming from our trip to Vietnam there and the discussion that
    was had there about what the United States has done to so
    dramatically reduce our energy consumption driven by
    efficiencies and what more we can do in leading by example with
    that. Again, great opportunities are clearly out there.
        I do think that we are wholly deficient when it comes to
    the education piece of this. It has been a long time since I
    was a den mother in a scout troop, but at that time that was
    the only place I ever saw a real focused effort in something
    with our kids, focused on conservation. You could get your
    conservation merit badge. And I think we are probably doing a
    little bit better now. But our kids are probably more aware of
    what can be done to conserve and to be more efficient than even
    we are. And so, how we educate all of us and then share this
    education beyond just the United States here, this is something
    where I think we have some opportunities, but we have not done
    a very good job in that area. So we will be working on that. I
    am going to be working on the temperature.
        I want to thank you all for your comments here today. I
    think you have given the Committee some good food for thought.
        Mr. Conant, I just really appreciate hearing what you have
    done, a small group of probably young people who want to make a
    difference and kind of, opening some eyes about what the
    possibilities are, not waiting for the government, either the
    federal or the state, to help you out, but figuring out how to
    do it on your own and really setting that model.
        I want to acknowledge the work of the Cold Climate Housing
    Research Center because what you do up there demonstrates the
    realm of the possible and for all of my visitors that come to
    Alaska, it is almost an obligatory stop on the tour when you
    are in Fairbanks to see what is going on there. But knowing the
    difference that we are making to families, working in
    conjunction with our national labs.
        And I appreciate the role that the labs play, and I would
    hope that we can be doing more pairing with our national labs
    with entities just like Cold Climate Housing Research Center
    and taking the genius that is on the ground and utilizing the
    genius of the men and women in our national labs and working
    with DOE I think we have a great opportunity.
        Dr. Keller, I don't know if you got over to the Cold
    Climate Housing Research Center when you were in Fairbanks, but
    if you haven't, you should talk to some of your other lab
    directors that were there. It was a pretty cool thing.
        Dan, I think you have been there, haven't you?
        Mr. Simmons. I have not yet, unfortunately.
        The Chairman. We can make arrangements for that. We will--
    --
        [Laughter.]
        Senator King. Madam Chair, I hope that the Center will
    share what they are learning because we have a very old housing
    stock in Maine, a very tough northern climate. So, to the
    extent you are learning projects, what works, best practices.
    We do a lot in weatherization, but there are always things to
    be learned and if you have ideas that can be passed along, we
    would love to have them.
        The Chairman. I am just going to talk out loud here about
    an idea, but since you and I are the co-chairs of the Arctic
    Caucus, it might be a good brown bag lunch to have a
    presentation on housing in colder places--it does not
    necessarily need to be Arctic. I mean, right now, in Colorado,
    it is colder than it is back home. But just to focus on that
    because it is not only what Cold Climate Housing is doing but
    we have other research from other Arctic countries that, I
    think, would be very, very helpful in focusing on some of the
    efficiencies and the innovation, if you would be up for that?
        Senator King. I'm in.
        The Chairman. Okay.
        Mr. Grunau. We're in, absolutely.
        The Chairman. Alright, we have a lunch date. There we go.
        Alright, gentlemen, thank you so much. We appreciate it.
        With that, the Committee stands adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:14 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.]

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