[Senate Hearing 116-]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



 
     LEGISLATIVE BRANCH APPROPRIATIONS FOR FISCAL YEAR 2021

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 11, 2020

                                       U.S. Senate,
           Subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittee met at 2:01 p.m., in room 124, Dirksen 
Senate Office Building, Hon. Cindy Hyde-Smith (Chairwoman) 
presiding.
    Present: Senators Hyde-Smith and Van Hollen.

  CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE AND THE GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE


             opening statement of senator cindy hyde-smith


    Senator Hyde-Smith. The subcommittee will come to order.
    I would like to welcome everyone to our first fiscal year 
2021 budget hearing for the Legislative Branch Appropriations 
Subcommittee.
    Today, we have with us the Director of Congressional Budget 
Office, Dr. Phillip Swagel, and the head of the Government 
Accountability Office, Mr. Gene Dodaro.
    I want to welcome both of you here as this is our first 
subcommittee hearing. I look forward to your initial 
impressions and future plans for CBO as you approach 1-year on 
the job, and thank you both for providing the testimony today.
    The total CBO request for fiscal year 2021 is $57.3 
million, an increase of $2.4 million, or 4.3 percent above the 
fiscal year 2020 enacted level.
    This increase includes funding to support staff hired 
through fiscal year 2020 as well as investments, I understand, 
and an internal IT system. The total GAO request for fiscal 
year 2021 is $706 million. This represents an increase of $76 
million, or 12 percent above the fiscal year 2020 enacted 
level.
    This increase would support a staffing level of 3,250 full 
time equivalents, provide for investments in IT, and reduce a 
growing maintenance backlog at GAO headquarters that we are all 
familiar with.
    Over the last few years, the legislative branch has seen a 
steady increase in allocated funding level, increasing by more 
than 15 percent between fiscal year 2016 and fiscal year 2020.
    While each of your requests would continue this growth, the 
reality is that under the current budget agreement we are 
almost certainly facing flat budgets for fiscal year 2021.
    Given these budget constraints, we will not be able to 
accommodate such large increases. This makes it especially 
important to understand the greatest needs of our legislative 
branch agencies in order to responsibly allocate our limited 
funds.
    We appreciate your hard work and look forward to our 
discussions today and learning more about your request.
    And, Senator Van Hollen, would you like to give an opening 
statement?


             opening statement of senator chris van hollen


    Senator Van Hollen. I will be very brief. Thank you, Madam 
Chairman, and thank both of you for being here today.
    Comptroller Dodaro, thank you, and your team at GAO, and 
Director Swagel, thank you and your group at the Congressional 
Budget Office. We rely on the professional nonpartisan advice 
and information that both your agencies provide us.
    Your work is essential to the functioning of this 
organization. So I am looking forward to hearing from both of 
you with respect to your budget proposals.
    My friend and colleague, Senator Chris Murphy, was not able 
to be here today but I will be--I want to pass on his 
greetings, first of all, to both of you and look forward to 
working with him and the Chair as we go forward.
    Take care. Thank you.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. I will now ask our witnesses, beginning 
with Dr. Swagel, to give a brief opening statement 
approximately five minutes to allow adequate time for 
questions.
STATEMENT OF DR. PHILLIP SWAGEL, DIRECTOR, 
            CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE
    Dr. Swagel. Thank you, Madam Chair and Senator Van Hollen, 
and Members of the subcommittee. I appreciate the chance to 
present CBO's budget request.
    As you said, CBO is asking for appropriations of $57.3 
million for fiscal year 2021, an increase of $2.4 million, or 
4.3 percent, from the amount the Congress provided in 2020, and 
thank you again for your continued support.
    Most of our budget, roughly 90 percent, is for personnel 
costs. The proposed budget would allow us to implement the 
multi-year staffing plan that was the basis for our funding 
increases in 2019 and 2020. The Congress increased CBO's budget 
in the past 2 years to bolster our capacity to make our work 
transparent and responsive. We have been working hard to 
accomplish those goals, and the plan calls for us to finish 
increasing our staffing during the current fiscal year. Most of 
the requested $2.4 million increase would allow CBO to remain 
at the higher staffing level in 2021, covering the normal 
increases in personnel costs as well as a full year's worth of 
salaries and benefits for seven new staff members we will hire 
in 2020.
    That funding would bolster our responsiveness and 
transparency in several ways. We are hiring employees with 
expertise in multiple disciplines. We are organizing our staff 
to work on broader shared portfolios.
    So if we have a lot of work in one area we can assign 
multiple employees to that--to that area. We are dedicating 
more resources to reporting information requested by the 
committees of jurisdiction and more staff to create 
publications explaining our work, the budget process, and how 
CBO fits into it.
    About $400,000 of the requested increase is for costs other 
than personnel and would fund initiatives aimed at improving 
our responsiveness in policy areas of especially high 
congressional interest.
    Essentially, this is health care, first and foremost. We 
would hire some outside expertise, and then climate policy as 
well, so climate and energy. Those are two areas where we are 
at capacity on health and then we are building capacity on the 
climate side.
    We also plan to set up an internal information technology 
system to track and manage the information we provide to the 
Congress.
    All right. So let me just say a few words briefly about 
what we do.
    We expect to provide roughly 750 formal cost estimates, 
most of which are provided to authorizing committees after they 
have ordered bills reported. Those estimates include both 
estimates of Federal costs and assessments of the cost of 
mandates imposed on State, local, and Tribal governments or the 
private sector. We also respond to thousands of requests for 
technical assistance from committees and Members. Much of this 
is to help policymakers before they introduce legislation.
    We also expect to produce about 130 scorekeeping reports 
and estimates during the appropriations process, including 
account level estimates for individual appropriations acts at 
all stages of the legislative process, as well as summary 
tables, showing the status of discretionary appropriations (by 
appropriations subcommittee) and running totals on a year-to-
date basis.
    And we expect to publish about 70 analytic reports and 
papers about the outlook for the budget and the economy, about 
major issues that affect the outlook and the economy.
    So this is a broad range of topics, defense policies, 
Social Security, and other topics, and we are working to make 
sure that we are ready to support the Congress on the policies 
that will come forward over the rest of this year and into the 
future.
    Labor markets, health care, energy, climate, retirement 
training, education, immigration, national security, and more. 
And, as always, we are working to make sure our work is not 
just high quality but also transparent and responsive.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to present CBO's budget 
request. I look forward to answering your questions.

    [The statement follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Dodaro.
STATEMENT OF HON. GENE DODARO, COMPTROLLER GENERAL, 
            GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE
    Mr. Dodaro. Good afternoon. Chairman Hyde-Smith, Senator 
Van Hollen, please convey my best wishes to Senator Murphy as 
well. I appreciate his greetings.
    Thank you for the opportunity to be here today to discuss 
GAO's request for fiscal year 2021. I appreciate the support 
that this subcommittee has provided GAO in the past and I think 
we have provided a very good return on that investment.
    Last year, as a result of implementation of our 
recommendations, there were financial benefits of over $214 
billion. That is $338 back for every dollar invested in GAO.
    We have also reported over 1,400 other benefits that are 
non-monetary but important to public health, safety, and the 
efficient operations of Federal programs and activities.
    For example, based on our work, Congress passed a program 
to allow for more testing of lead in drinking water in K12 
schools, which we found was not being tested properly, and so 
it allows them now to make sure our school children are safer.
    In the veterans area we have made recommendations to 
improve the prescribing practices for opioids of veterans, and 
to increase suicide prevention efforts at the VA, since on 
average about 20 veterans a day are committing suicide.
    We have also made recommendations at the VA to make sure 
that there are not disqualified doctors providing services to 
our veterans. Based on our recommendations, Congress also 
created a requirement for Federal agencies to work with the 
energy sector to develop a national strategy for protecting the 
electricity grid.
    This is very important for protection from both cyber and 
physical attacks, and other matters. We have made 
recommendations to help put the 2020 Census preparations on a 
better footing, although I still remain concerned about several 
aspects of the 2020 Census.
    And we have also made recommendations to help asylum 
officers better detect fraud in the many applications from 
people applying for asylum here in the United States.
    This is just a sampling of what we do across the Federal 
Government. Our scope is everything the Federal Government is 
involved in. We provide services to over 90 percent of the 
committees of the Congress.
    We receive hundreds of requests each year both in statute 
from conference and committee reports and requests from 
committee chairs and ranking members. We treat both parties the 
same based on our nonpartisan status and having access to GAO 
resources.
    Now, regarding requests for next year, a $76 million 
increase would put us at, as you mentioned, Senator Hyde-Smith, 
at 3,250 full time equivalent positions. For years I have been 
consistent with this committee that this is the optimum 
staffing level for GAO.


            gao's science and technology efforts increasing


    The increase would go to boosting our new science and 
technology analytics team. This team was created at the request 
of the Congress. We have doubled the amount of staff in that 
team.
    Last year at this time I sent up a long-term plan for the 
team at Congress's request and I said that the optimum size of 
that team is 140 people. At the end of this year we will be up 
to a hundred.
    So we will need 40 more for next year to be at the level 
that I think we need to provide support to the Congress. 
Science and technology issues are ubiquitous across the Federal 
Government's activities and Congress needs greatly improved 
support in order to deal with a wide range of issues.


                     increased fiscal law workload


    So we have put that team on a good footing. The other 
resources would go to increasing our legal team that is focused 
on fiscal law and appropriation decisions. We have had an 
unprecedented request for assistance on issues like the 
Empowerment Control Act, and other appropriation law issues.
    Last year's government shutdown for 35 days generated a lot 
of requests for information about some of the agency activities 
that claimed exceptions to that law and anti-deficiency 
violations and a lot of other things. So the money would go to 
support increased staffing in those two areas--science and 
technology and our legal team.


            information technology and infrastructure needs


    Also, the funds would help us in two other aspects. One is 
in our information technology area. We appreciate the 
subcommittee's support and we have improved our infrastructure 
in information technology.
    But we still have our legacy document retention system. 
This stores the documents that we receive from the agencies. 
All our analysis is in a 30-year-old system that is not 
conducive to the efficient use of our staff. So we need to 
replace that system.
    And also we continue to have issues with deferred 
maintenance in our 69-year-old headquarters building. Some of 
the outside of the building is limestone that is deteriorating.
    There are problems with the air conditioning system. You 
know, the building was built in the year I was born. The 
maintenance team tells me there are not enough parts. I said 
there are more parts for the building than there are for me.
    But we need your help and support to make sure that our 
building is maintained properly and safely for our people. I am 
particularly concerned because the Mylar support we put on the 
outside windows for blast protection is beyond its useful life 
and we have a day care center in the GAO building.
    It is on the first floor facing the street and I want to 
make sure we take it into account. There is nothing more 
important than the safety and healthy protection of our people.
    So I know you will give careful consideration to our 
request. I understand the fiscal constraints that you deal 
with. As the auditor of the government's financial statements 
and I understand full well the Federal Government's 
unsustainable long-term fiscal path.
    But GAO provides a good return on that investment and to 
the extent to which you help us we can help you deal with a 
wide range of very important pressing matters to the Congress.
    So thank you for your time and attention today and I would 
be happy to answer questions.

    [The statement follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you very much, and I will start 
the questions with you. You are requesting an increase of $76 
million over the fiscal year 2020 enacted level and, as I 
mentioned in my opening remarks, we are facing a difficult 
budget scenario this year with virtually no increase for 
nondefense discretionary spending.


                    effects of a flat budget on gao


    How would a flat budget in fiscal year 2021 affect your 
operations and, specifically, the services and support you 
provide to Congress?
    Mr. Dodaro. First, regarding a flat budget like Phil 
mentioned at CBO, our greatest costs are our personnel costs, 
and so it would immediately cause us not to hire anybody for 
next fiscal year.
    We are expecting about 6 percent attrition. We wouldn't be 
able to replace anybody who left the GAO, and we would also 
have to furlough everybody in GAO--all our employees--for 2 
weeks in order to deal with a flat budget request.
    We would have to delay or cancel our IT efforts and the 
building maintenance issues as well. Last year with the 
increase in the cost of living adjustment, a 3.1 increase for 
our staff, and then also the amount of contributions we have to 
make to our staff's retirement system went up $10 million for 
the same number of people.
    So with salary increases and benefit increases it costs way 
more to keep the same number of people that you have in the 
agency. And so that would be our difficulty.
    Now, what it would do to the Congress is it would 
effectively halt all the progress that we have made in the 
science, technology, and analytics area.
    We wouldn't be able to execute the plan that I provided to 
you last year because we wouldn't be able to hire anybody else 
during that period.
    And based on the number of people we expect to have on 
board at the end of this fiscal year, with a flat budget for 
next fiscal year, we would have 275 less people in GAO than 
without a flat budget. That means we would not be as responsive 
to a range of requests across the Congress.
    We would have to prioritize those efforts and we already 
have a queue of requests that we are not able to get to 
immediately. I expect that queue to grow.
    And with issues like the coronavirus and other things, I 
know we are already getting uptick on requests on that. If 
Congress passes a stimulus package to deal with the economy, we 
have done a lot of work in the past on stimulus packages.
    I know we are going to get more requests, given the issues 
that we are confronting now across the country. So we will do 
our best. We understand your issues.
    But it will have a serious impact on our ability to be 
timely and to get to everything as soon as possible, and it 
will have long-term consequences.
    Our workforce is aging just like the general society. We 
are working hard at succession planning efforts to replace 
people so we have an orderly transition of our support to the 
Congress, because our greatest value is having institutional 
knowledge, deep institutional knowledge, of government programs 
and activities, and you don't get that overnight. You have to 
build that over time.
    A flat budget would also do damage to our succession 
planning efforts. I could go on but I think you get the gist.


     how would a flat budget in fiscal year 2021 affect operations


    Senator Hyde-Smith. And, Dr. Swagel, the same question for 
you.
    Dr. Swagel. So we would face similar challenges on a 
smaller scale, of course, and CBO is smaller. Effectively, we 
would have to cut about $2.4 million from our requested level.
    Just as with GAO we would cut the non-personnel expenses 
where possible so we would cut back on staff training, travel, 
conferences, things like that. But, inevitably, most of the 
savings would be from personnel.
    We probably wouldn't furlough people but, essentially, we 
would stop hiring and we would save money through attrition. So 
it is possible.
    The challenge is that by the end of 2021 we would be down 
maybe 6 to 10 people from where we are now and the challenge is 
we wouldn't control who we lose and, of course, the people who 
get hired away from us tend to be good people in areas of 
particular congressional interests, health care especially.
    So we would have some imbalance or mismatch of skills and 
requests, things like that. We would--you know, we would shift 
around but it would be a challenge. So as in GAO, it would 
affect our ability to be responsive and so on. But, of course, 
we would respond as best as we could.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you.
    Senator Van Hollen.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
    So you both head agencies that include lots of constituents 
that I represent in the State of Maryland so my first question 
relates to the coronavirus and I am assuming both of you have 
put in place plans--contingency plans or plans that are also 
being implemented to deal with the coronavirus including 
additional telework opportunities and that kind of thing. Can 
you just briefly respond, starting with the comptroller?


                  gao's coronavirus contingency plans


    Mr. Dodaro. We have contingency plans that we have already 
begun to execute. We have had them in place to deal with such 
type of emergencies. We have expanded the ability of people to 
do telework.
    We have a wide range of telework already available at the 
GAO. People can telework on a regular basis. But we have given 
them more opportunities to do that. We have increased the 
cleaning of the buildings.
    We have restricted travel, both international travel as 
well as domestic travel. We put in place last night a policy to 
restrict visitors from outside the GAO coming into GAO in large 
numbers.
    Since we have regional offices across the country, we have 
taken additional measures in Seattle and Oakland to provide 
people opportunities to telework.
    Fortunately, we have built, with this subcommittee's 
support, a good IT infrastructure where people can work from 
home and so I don't expect any loss of productivity, although 
there will be issues in terms of access to agency officials and 
others over time.
    We have made available counseling services as well. A lot 
of people have anxiety and got a lot of issues they want to 
deal with. And so we have a top-flight counseling group in GAO 
that are available to provide assistance.
    We have met with our managers. Myself and our executive 
committee, our chief administrative officer, and the chief 
operating officer and our general counsel have been meeting 
every day to learn from what we are experiencing here, put new 
policies in place, and deal with new questions.
    We have a special website in GAO that has links to CDC and 
other information. We are communicating with our staff daily in 
terms of making sure they understand these issues.
    Nothing is more important than the protection and safety of 
our people and we are approaching our management in that vein.


  contingency plans in place/implemented to deal with the coronavirus


    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you.
    Director.
    Dr. Swagel. So we faced some similar challenges and have 
responded in some of the same ways. This morning, we did a test 
on 30 minutes notice, converted a large meeting into a virtual 
meeting and our computer people made it happen.
    So that--so I think we are in good shape. Tonight more than 
half of the agency is going to log on and work remotely from 
7:30 for an hour so we are going to test--stress test our 
systems as well.
    And we have limited travel and outside meetings, things 
like that. You know, the challenge we face is twofold. One is, 
simply, there is some data we use that have to be accessed in 
the building.
    We have air gap networks that, you know, just our 
agreements to use the data are based on no external access, 
right. No--no one is going to hack into this data.
    So we will figure out what to do. But that will be a 
challenge. You know, the nature sometimes of what we do is 
intensely team focused.
    The people--my colleagues who are back at the Ford Building 
working on the appropriations bills for the House are gathered 
together and--it is--so it is--it will work. We will make it 
work. But it will be a challenge.


    impact of coronavirus on the cbo economic and budget projections


    Senator Van Hollen. Thanks. And just on the--in terms of 
the impact--so you are going to get a lot of questions, I 
assume, pretty quickly as I am sure you are getting at GAO with 
respect to different aspects of the impact of the coronavirus.
    But one, obviously, is the impact on the economy, and we 
have already seen major impacts across the board, obviously, in 
the hospitality industry but small businesses, medium-sized 
businesses, large businesses, and there are a lot of unknowns. 
We recognize that and we are all relying on the health care 
experts to sort of guide us in their projections.
    But I saw that CBO had modeled the economic consequences of 
a pandemic, producing a study back in 2005 and 2006 which I 
guess could provide some guidance, potentially, for what we are 
facing now. Just today, the WHO declared the coronavirus a 
pandemic.
    So could you talk a little bit about your current thinking 
about how you are going to factor in the impact of the 
coronavirus on your economic and budget projections?
    Dr. Swagel. Absolutely. And as you said, we know the virus 
situation will have an effect in the economy. We are tracking 
it. The past work that you referenced looked at kind of a mild 
scenario and said that the impact would be 1 percent of GDP.
    So it is a pretty mild impact. A wider pandemic would be 4 
to 5 percent of GDP, so something on the order of a pretty big 
serious recession. You know, of course, the world is more 
globalized.
    Cross-border supply chains are more important. China has a 
larger role in the world economy and the U.S. economy than back 
15 years ago.
    So the possible range of outcomes is wider. It is hard for 
us to say where it is going to end up. We will do an update to 
our economic projections in the months ahead, certainly in time 
for the summer update of the budget outlook.
    We are hoping to have more clarity by then. In the 
meantime, we are producing a March update on the--you know, the 
budget outlook. That will be based on the pre-virus economics 
just to give the Congress a scoring baseline and in some sense 
we will do our--you know, our part in the appropriations 
process and then be thinking hard about the economic impact and 
what it means for the budget.
    Senator Van Hollen. Sure, and I suspect many of us will be 
asking you for analyses of potential responses we make. 
Obviously, we have got to deal with the health threat as the 
top priority.
    But, for example, paid sick leave I think many people 
recognize would be important not only to, you know, protecting 
the health of the community but also making sure that people 
who are out of work because of the coronavirus still have an 
income, can pay the bills, and that kind of thing.
    So it is going to be important that you be ready to model 
those kind of policy options, and thank you. I have more 
questions but I assume you do too, Madam Chairman, so----


   method cbo used to score (waive) telehealth restriction (medicare)


    Senator Hyde-Smith. Okay. We will play tennis.
    On that same line, Dr. Swagel, you know, the COVID-19 
supplemental included a provision for telehealth services 
during certain emergency periods. This provision gives the 
secretary of HHS the authority to waive the certain telehealth 
restrictions in the Medicare program. CBO scored this waiver 
authority at $500 million and I have a lot of questions about 
that and so do other people.
    Can you share how you got to that number and what data was 
used to score that way?
    Dr. Swagel. Yes, absolutely.
    So we looked at research by MedPAC and by other groups on 
the usage of telehealth within the Medicare system and in 
commercial insurance, and in rural Medicare in that--in that 
space, the usage previously has been pretty modest in part 
because the restriction that beneficiaries had to go to a 
certain location. They couldn't just call up an app on their 
phone as they could in a commercial plan.
    And so that is what the recently-enacted legislation did. 
It allows the secretary of HHS to waive that and let people not 
have to go to a fixed location.
    So we looked at what MedPAC analyzed and said there will be 
increased usage of telehealth just because of the relaxation of 
that restriction. And then we said will there be additional 
usage of telehealth during the pandemic that beneficiaries 
would prefer not to go into a doctor's office and so on.
    And so, in a sense, we are expecting very considerably 
higher usage of telehealth and that--so that is the quantity 
and the price we looked at, the payment rates that Medicare 
pays for, you know, various telehealth usages and put those 
together--the number of people, the amount of usage, and the 
payments, and that is what led to our estimate.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. When I think of telehealth I think of 
savings because you are not going in to the doctor's office and 
I was surprised to see that score.
    If seniors avoid the necessary care because of fears of 
getting the virus at the doctor's office, this could lead to 
higher costs down the road if the virus is not caught earlier. 
Chronic disease is not managed. Did they consider that?
    Dr. Swagel. We did, and so we looked, in some sense, in 
both directions, that the--that savings that you have pointed 
to, thinking broadly of prevention, that people will spend some 
money now and that will prevent something worse.
    And, again, exactly as you said, someone might not have to 
go into the doctor's office as a result and that will save 
money as compared to, you know, something else.
    On the other hand, we also saw in our analysis that there 
will be increased usage and there would be some increased usage 
that wouldn't result in savings, and at our first cut those 
two, roughly, balanced each other out and that is why there is 
no--in our estimate there is no prevention offset, in a sense.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. What about future telehealth practices 
after the coronavirus issue is over? What about then? Do you 
see significant savings or do you have any indicators now for 
post-corona?
    Dr. Swagel. Uh-huh. So we will be watching very carefully 
and we will look to CMS to provide us with data on exactly what 
happens as a result. And so, in a sense, we are going to learn.
    I mean, we are going to learn from the experience now, and 
I can come back to you, you know, a month down the road or a 
year down the road and say, look, this is what we--this is what 
we have learned--the usage, the cost.
    Maybe we will have some information on the savings as you--
as you put it, from people, you know, having a lower cost 
treatment now rather than a higher cost later. So we are 
looking to learn from what is happening now.


     cbo-no-year funding request (explain the flexibility/benefits)


    Senator Hyde-Smith. Okay. And one other thing. Included in 
your request this year is a proposal to have $45,000 in no year 
funding to allow greater flexibility for CBO staff to attend 
certain academic conferences. Can you explain the need for the 
flexibility and the benefit it would provide?
    Dr. Swagel. Yes, I can. It turns out that several of the 
academic conferences at which we recruit happen early in the 
fiscal year and the reservations process for that happens right 
at the beginning of the fiscal year.
    So it is a challenge for us to be able to participate 
fully. There is a sense in which having a little bit of 
flexibility in our funding would allow us to get, you know, 
flights and hotel rooms and things like that at the lower rate 
rather than waiting until----
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Like today?
    [Laughter.]
    Dr. Swagel. Yes, that is--as I said that I was just 
thinking no one is traveling, period, right now. So----
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Yes, the rates are pretty low today, 
obviously.
    Dr. Swagel. Yes, I know. So but in the future and looking--
looking to the future after, you know----
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Yes.
    Dr. Swagel [continuing]. After we are back to normal.


            other challenges cbo faces in recruiting talent


    Senator Hyde-Smith. And what other challenges do you face 
in recruiting talent?
    Dr. Swagel. So we do well. We recruit top people who are 
attracted to our mission, our culture, what they will learn. If 
Senator Murphy was--was here I would mention we just hired a 
new Ph.D. from a major university in his State, in New Haven. 
We hired one from----
    Senator Van Hollen. I will let him know.
    [Laughter.]
    Dr. Swagel. Exactly. We hired one from Harvard's Public 
Health School and one from Yale's Public Health School this 
year. It just happens.
    So we do well. We get top people. On the other hand, 
economists are in high demand. We lose people to opportunities 
that pay more, and that--it is just a reality.
    So, you know, we are constantly thinking of what we can do 
to compete more and better. So, you know, I have some thoughts 
on that as well I could share.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you very much.
    Senator Van Hollen.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
    Comptroller Dodaro, you mentioned the Science Technology 
Assessment and Analytics Team and, as you indicated, this has 
been a priority of the Congress and I know it has been a 
priority of yours. I think it is a very important mission. I 
remember in an earlier incarnation the OTA, Office of 
Technology Assessment.
    You really--since they disappeared we are going to rely 
more and more on GAO to answer some of these important 
questions on science and technology.
    So I was--I was going to ask you what the impact of a flat 
line budget would be on that effort. You have already answered 
that question.
    I hope that we will find a way to avoid cuts that 
compromise that mission because I think in the end of the day 
we are only hurting the Congress but really, by extension, we 
are hurting the public by not using sort of the best 
information we can get when it comes to important policy 
decisions. So I hope we will look at that.


                assessing data on government contracting


    Let me ask you a word about government contractors. I had 
asked you about this in the past. I know GAO has been trying to 
get a handle on it. But I would like to make another run at 
this effort. I don't mean this moment but--or this year.
    Because it remains true even 10 years after Congress 
required Federal agencies to provide annual reports on the 
amount they spend on service contracts and the number of 
contractors they employ that we haven't got--we haven't gotten 
a handle on that.
    That earlier instruction was part of the Consolidated 
Appropriations Act of 2010 and the Congress had a reason for 
asking for this.
    I am quoting from that conference report.
    ''In the absence of complete and reliable information on 
the extent of their reliance on service contractors, Federal 
agencies are not well equipped to determine whether they have 
the right balance of contractor and in-house resources needed 
to accomplish their missions.''
    That is what the report stated.
    In contrast to contractors, we know exactly how many 
Federal employees there are. Not counting the Postal Service, 
there were just over 2 million civilian Federal workers in 2019 
across the country, which is about where we were in 1981, 
despite the fact that the demand for those services has 
increased as our population has expanded.
    So, you know, somebody just looking at that might think, 
okay, well, the Federal Government is doing a lot more with 
less and it is true on the Federal Government side. But the 
reality is a lot of resources are now going to the Federal 
contracting community.
    So my question is why is it that agencies have not been 
able to comply with the law and produce reliable reports about 
their contractor workforce?
    Mr. Dodaro. I think there are two factors. One is that it 
has not been given a high priority by the agencies. The latest 
data we have on the civilian side is 2018 on the number of 
employees and that data shows on the civilian side 180,000 
contractor employees.
    I think that is low and I have no reason to believe that it 
is a reliable number at this point. DOD has given numbers in 
the past ranging from 560,000 to over 700,000 but they haven't 
reported recently.
    Even the 2018 data is not available. We have had open 
recommendations to DOD to focus on what the proper mix of their 
workforce really is or should be.
    Same thing is true in preparing for coronavirus or 
pandemics or any other. FEMA has issues with its workforce and 
a lot of contractors there.
    NASA is on our high-risk list. They certainly have 
contracted out more to the private sector for our space 
efforts. DOE is 80 percent contractors. We are spending 
billions of dollars in an effort to try to clean up hazardous 
waste still from World War II that we are not making any 
headway on. The liabilities keep growing.
    So, number one, it has not been a priority, and number two, 
I think Congress has to step up its oversight. I would be happy 
to entertain and fulfill a request from the Congress asking us 
to look at this issue in more detail and for Congress to give 
it a priority.
    I think it is important to planning for the future 
workforce to have good ideas, and some things that we have 
contracted out for perhaps we should build more capacity within 
the Federal Government to have in the event of emergencies. For 
instance, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan caught everybody off 
guard.
    The acquisition workforce at DOD after the Cold War was 
cut, and we warned about that and all of a sudden we find 
ourselves in a conflict. Then we have to hire contractors to 
perform contingency operations on the battlefield and so it is 
to support the warfighters.
    And so this is a very important issue. I would be happy to 
work more on it but, frankly, we haven't got a request from the 
Congress to take a look at it and I have got a lot of things 
that we are working on. But I would be happy to look more at 
this issue.
    Senator Van Hollen. No, I appreciate that and thank you for 
the invitation to provide a request. I will probably be 
following up. Because, look, obviously, we need contractors. 
There is no doubt about it. They play an important role.
    But as you indicated, when it comes to sort of essential 
government functions it is important that we build up our 
capacity to do that on a permanent basis, not on a temporary 
basis.
    And so I think it is worth taking a look at this to see 
what the mix is and that we are where necessary beginning to 
build up----
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Senator Van Hollen [continuing]. That long-term expertise. 
So we will be in touch.


            importance of gao's science and technology work


    Mr. Dodaro. If I might, on the science technology work at 
the GAO, and the importance of continuing that, even before the 
coronavirus we had started working on infectious disease 
modeling efforts using the best scientific information.
    We will have a report coming out soon on that. We did a 
technology assessment to more rapidly detect infectious 
diseases. We have started what we call a spotlight series of 
putting out explainers on two pages to help people understand.
    We put one out on coronaviruses. We put one out on 
hypersonic weapons and a wide variety of other areas. We have 
hired biomedical engineers and others, just as in the health 
area.
    Now it goes across weapons systems as well. We also just 
issued a report, a technology assessment, on artificial 
intelligence in drug development to try to expedite the 
development of drugs, which can take up to a decade.
    Senator Van Hollen. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro. If you use more artificial intelligence you can 
do it theoretically, faster. And so there are some policy 
questions for the Congress in there.
    So I am very committed to this effort and increasing the 
capabilities of it. Some see science through a particular lens 
right now. That is important.
    But there is a broad spectrum of science and technology 
issues across the entire range of our government's operation.
    So I would hope we can find a way to prioritize it with the 
resources that you give us. But I think we shouldn't be short-
sighted about the investments that we need.
    Senator Van Hollen. Well, we look forward to following up 
with you on that and, look, I think we have seen how important 
the CDC is and one of the efforts that Congress has undertaken 
on a bipartisan basis over the years was to make sure we build 
that CDC capacity, which is why we have rejected some of the 
proposed cuts that have been suggested to the--to the Congress.
    And I think that when you think about the long-term here, 
some of those fundamental questions--you are talking about AI 
and the role it plays--but also funding things like the CDC on 
a consistent ongoing basis, you know, sometimes when you are 
not facing an outbreak of coronavirus.
    It is in the back of the mind but when you need it we need 
to recognize that it is important to, you know, put in that 
funding over a period of time.


       gao's previous pandemic recommendation still not fulfilled


    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The hardest part of my job is trying to 
get people to focus on things before they are a crisis. We made 
a recommendation in 2015 that the Department of Transportation 
should have a plan to deal with the airlines in the event of a 
pandemic, and now here we are 5 years later.
    DOT has done nothing on this area. We have situations where 
there is no good plan with the airlines and they are saying it 
should be HHS's responsibility or Department of Homeland 
Security's responsibilities and not theirs.
    Our recommendation was for them to work with those agencies 
and develop one for the airline industry and international 
travel. If you look at the spread of this current pandemic that 
we are in it was through global travel. We need to make sure 
that we focus on proper preparedness in these type of 
activities.
    Same thing is true for natural disasters. Building more 
resilience in and doing better planning. I know you have more 
questions so I won't go on. I am sorry.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. I think I have finished up with 
questions.
    Senator Van Hollen. Yes, I am--I have, too. The only thing 
I would say, Madam Chairman, is, Comptroller Dodaro, you 
mentioned the Impoundment Control Act.
    I know you are going to be testifying in the Budget 
Committee tomorrow, I believe, and you and I have talked in the 
past and we are working on a bipartisan bill dealing with 
impoundment issues--Impoundment Control Act issues--which I 
also believe that we have a bipartisan interest in pursuing in 
the United States Congress.
    So I will ask you more about that tomorrow. Thank you, 
Madame Chair.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Okay. This concludes the Legislative 
Branch Appropriations Subcommittee hearing regarding fiscal 
year 2021.
    Thank you, Mr. Dodaro. Thank you, Dr. Swagel.


                     additional committee questions


    And the hearing record will remain open for 7 days, 
allowing Members to submit statements and questions for the 
record, which should be sent to the subcommittee by close of 
business on Wednesday, March the 25th.
    [The following questions were not asked at the hearing, but 
were submitted to the agencies for response subsequent to the 
hearing:]
              Questions Submitted to Dr. Phillip L. Swagel
           Questions Submitted by Senator Christopher Murphy
    On March 11, 2020, the Senate Committee on Appropriations convened 
a hearing at which Phillip L. Swagel, the Congressional Budget Office's 
Director, testified about the agency's appropriation request.\1\ After 
the hearing, Ranking Member Murphy submitted questions for the record. 
This document provides CBO's answers. It is available at www.cbo.gov/
publication/56366.

    Question. Under a flat budget, . . . at what point would you have 
to make furloughs and what would that mean for CBO? What other cost-
cutting strategies would you have to implement to meet constraints?

    Answer. If CBO's funding for fiscal year 2021 was set at the amount 
provided for 2020, the agency would have to hold spending $2.4 million 
(or 4.2 percent) below its budget request for fiscal year 2021--but the 
budget gap would effectively total $2.8 million, given the agency's 
unanticipated needs for 2021 related to COVID-19. Those unanticipated 
needs include additional expenses for information technology (IT) to 
support teleworking and purchases of data needed to carry out analysis 
related to the pandemic.
    Making cuts totaling $2.8 million would be a challenge. CBO would 
cut nonpersonnel spending where possible--for example, spending on 
staff travel, training, and consulting services. Even so, the main 
source of savings would have to be cuts in spending on personnel, which 
accounts for most of the agency's budget. CBO could avoid furloughs by 
eliminating performance bonuses, severely cutting recruitment bonuses, 
freezing hiring, and allowing the agency's workforce to shrink through 
attrition.

    Question. How would a flat budget affect recent and current year 
hires and their capacity to produce?

    Answer. Under a flat budget, on the basis of its latest payroll 
projections, CBO would probably lose 10 to 15 full-time equivalents by 
the end of fiscal year 2021. For the past several years, CBO has sought 
to add staff who can help make the agency's work as transparent and 
responsive as possible. Under a hiring freeze, those efforts would 
stall--or even be partially reversed--if any of those employees left 
the agency or if they had to be redeployed to work on other efforts for 
which the agency was shorthanded. Moreover, as employees retired or 
resigned, the remaining staff could have a mix of skills that did not 
properly match the Congress's needs for analysis. For example, there 
could be gaps in manpower and expertise in areas such as healthcare, 
for which analytical ability is in especially high demand.

    Question. What other practices would CBO have to implement under a 
flat budget--does this mean IT cuts? What would such cuts mean for 
CBO's mission?

    Answer. As it cut nonpersonnel spending, CBO would need to reduce 
IT expenses--which could affect the agency's ability to carry out its 
mission to provide the Congress with analysis. Reliable and high-
quality hardware and software play a key role in enabling CBO to carry 
out its analyses rapidly and effectively. In particular, funding would 
be eliminated for research and advisory services that help determine 
best practices and investment in IT equipment and services. Such 
services have proven over time to produce thousands of dollars in cost 
savings by capitalizing on best practices across the IT field.

    Question. What steps is CBO taking to analyze the effects of COVID-
19 on the U.S. economy?

    Answer. The economy is experiencing a sharp contraction stemming 
from factors related to the pandemic, including the social distancing 
measures put in place to contain it. To inform the Congress about those 
rapidly evolving developments, CBO has published preliminary 
projections of key economic variables for the 2020-2021 period, along 
with a preliminary assessment of Federal budget deficits and debt for 
those years.\2\ CBO's Director briefed the House Budget Committee about 
the updated forecast and answered questions from committee members.\3\ 
Finally, CBO released interim economic projections, which incorporated 
the most recent economic information and analyses and provided 
additional details.\4\
    The preliminary assessments incorporated estimates of the economic 
effects of measures to limit face-to-face interactions, such as 
reducing social activities, working from home, closing schools and 
businesses, and issuing stay-at-home or shelter-in-place orders. CBO 
also took into account the economic effects of the four pandemic-
related laws enacted in March and April.\5\
    Going forward, CBO will continue to monitor economic and budget 
conditions. Later this summer, CBO will release its regular full-volume 
update of economic and budget projections.\6\

    Question. What resources, in terms of staff capacity and general 
expenses, is CBO deploying to analyze the impacts of the COVID-19 
epidemic on the U.S. economy?

    Answer. CBO has devoted significant resources to analyzing the 
impacts of the pandemic on the U.S. economy. Since January, dozens of 
analysts in several divisions have worked on aspects of that analysis. 
(CBO has not tracked or tabulated the amounts of time various analysts 
contributed to the effort.) In addition, the agency is spending about 
$600,000 this year for IT to support teleworking and for purchases of 
data and financial news subscriptions to support its analyses; at least 
$275,000 of that amount is for work related to the pandemic.
    The agency's products and activities include, but are not limited 
to, the following: a preliminary projection of key economic variables 
for 2020 and 2021; cost estimates for various pieces of pandemic-
related legislation; epidemiological analysis; analysis of the economic 
effects of new legislation; analysis of changes in revenues as a result 
of the pandemic; estimates of the pandemic's effects on population 
projections; editing, publishing, and communicating the preliminary 
economic and budget projections; and publishing a report on CBO's 
interim economic projections. Many of those efforts were conducted 
while CBO staff worked from home starting in mid-March and were enabled 
by the extraordinary efforts of CBO's IT and support staff.

    Question. Has CBO examined what is needed and how that will affect 
the economy to implement a broad paid sick leave policy (or if we see a 
broad need for sick leave in general)?

    Answer. CBO has not analyzed the economic effects of an economywide 
policy requiring paid sick leave. The staff of the Joint Committee on 
Taxation estimated a budgetary cost of $105 billion during the 2020-
2021 period for a tax credit compensating employers for sick leave 
required by the Families First Coronavirus Response act. That policy, 
which expires at the end of calendar year 2020, covers private-sector 
employers with fewer than 500 employees, with somewhat limited 
eligibility. CBO estimates the cost to State and local governments to 
provide that benefit to be roughly $20 billion over fiscal years 2020 
and 2021.\7\

    Question. How does CBO intend through its fiscal year 2021 budget 
request to improve transparency and responsiveness to Congress?

    Answer. The agency would bolster its responsiveness and 
transparency by:

  --Improving the coordination and integration of analysis performed by 
        employees in multiple disciplines;
  --Organizing its staff to work on broader, shared portfolios;
  --Hiring expert consultants in areas of especially high demand, such 
        as health policy;
  --Dedicating more resources to regularly reporting information that 
        is requested by committees of jurisdiction; and
  --Dedicating more staff to creating publications that explain and 
        graphically illustrate CBO's work.

    Question. What is your hiring goal for this initiative and how will 
staff be deployed?

    Answer. The budget request for fiscal year 2021 would let CBO 
fulfill the multiyear staffing plan that was the basis for the agency's 
funding increases in 2019 and 2020. The plan calls for CBO to increase 
its staff by seven people during fiscal year 2020 to pursue its 
responsiveness and transparency efforts, and then to remain at the 
higher staffing level in 2021. CBO plans to add employees who will 
increase the agency's expertise and modeling capability in several 
areas, notably health policy (including drug policy) and climate 
policy. CBO would also deploy the additional staff to bolster 
responsiveness and transparency, as described in the answer to the 
previous question.

    Question. If we fund your request, do you have quantitative 
benchmarks for how much more quickly CBO can respond to general 
requests for information as well as inquiries on the underlying models 
and analytics of a product?

    Answer. CBO seeks to provide information--including cost estimates, 
background information, and technical assistance--to the Congress at 
the time when it is most useful. To that end, CBO has quantitative 
benchmarks to ensure its meeting that goal of timeliness.
    One of the agency's most important benchmarks is to provide a 
formal cost estimate--which is required for nearly every bill that is 
approved by a full committee--ahead of floor consideration. CBO meets 
that standard almost all of the time.
    A related benchmark is to provide information ahead of floor action 
about the estimated effects on direct spending of bills that will be 
considered under suspension of the rules in the House or that are being 
hotlined in the Senate. again, CBO meets that standard almost all of 
the time.
    For general requests for information that is readily available, 
CBO's goal is to respond to those requests within hours or a day. 
Funding of CBO's budget request would facilitate those very fast 
turnarounds.
    Another benchmark is to provide information about CBO's underlying 
models or data at or close to the time a CBO report is published. That 
information can take the form of working papers, appendixes to reports, 
and supplemental information. Funding of CBO's budget request would 
enable the agency to provide more such information and to more closely 
align the release of such underlying details with a companion CBO 
report.

    Question. What IT infrastructure needs do you have to increase 
responsiveness and transparency?

    Answer. CBO currently has a good system for tracking the 
preparation of cost estimates, but it relies on manual processes by 
certain managers. The agency aims to streamline that process and move 
to a system that is more automated and can be maintained by 
administrative staff. The cost will depend in part on whether CBO can 
develop the system in-house or must purchase an existing system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ See testimony of Phillip L. Swagel, Director, Congressional 
Budget Office, before the Subcommittee on the Legislative Branch of the 
Senate appropriations Committee, CBO's Appropriation Request for Fiscal 
Year 2021 (March 11, 2020), www.cbo.gov/publication/56188.
    \2\ See Congressional Budget Office, ``CBO's Current Projections of 
Output, Employment, and Interest Rates and a Preliminary Look at 
Federal Deficits for 2020 and 2021,'' CBO Blog (April 24, 2020), 
www.cbo.gov/publication/56335, and ``Updating CBO's Economic Forecast 
to account for the Pandemic,'' CBO Blog (April 2, 2020), www.cbo.gov/
publication/56314.
    \3\ See Phillip L. Swagel, Director, Congressional Budget Office, 
``CBO's Current Economic Projections and a Preliminary Look at Federal 
Deficits and Debt for 2020 and 2021'' (presentation to the House Budget 
Committee, April 27, 2020), www.cbo.gov/publication/56344; and 
Congressional Budget Office, letter to the Honorable John Yarmouth 
providing answers to questions from Congresswoman Schakowsky related to 
federal funding for state and local governments (May 13, 2020), 
www.cbo.gov/publication/56360.
    \4\ See Congressional Budget Office, Interim Economic Projections 
for 2020 and 2021 (May 2020), www.cbo.gov/publication/56351.
    \5\ See Congressional Budget Office, cost estimate for H.R. 266, 
the Paycheck Protection Program and Health Care Enhancement Act (April 
22, 2020), www.cbo.gov/publication/56338, cost estimate for H.R. 748, 
the CARES Act, Public Law 116-136 (April 16, 2020), www.cbo.gov/
publication/56334, cost estimate for H.R. 6201, the Families First 
Coronavirus Response Act (April 2, 2020), www.cbo.gov/publication/
56316, and cost estimate for H.R. 6074, the Coronavirus Preparedness 
and Response Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2020 (March 4, 2020), 
www.cbo.gov/publication/56227.
    \6\ See Congressional Budget Office, CBO's Current Plan for Its 
Major Periodic Reports This Year (letter to Chairman Enzi, May 14, 
2020), www.cbo.gov/publication/56359.
    \7\ See Congressional Budget Office, cost estimate for H.R. 6201, 
the Families First Coronavirus Response Act (April 2, 2020), 
www.cbo.gov/publication/56316.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 ______
                                 
                Questions Submitted to Hon. Gene Dodaro
           Questions Submitted by Senator Christopher Murphy
              impacts of flat budgets in fiscal year 2021
    Even with a budget agreement in place for fiscal year 2021, the 
slight increase provided has already been spoken for, mainly due to 
veterans healthcare needs. This means that we will probably see 
Legislative Branch agencies frozen at their fiscal year 2021 funding 
levels. The budgets for both CBO and GAO are heavily dominated by 
personnel, and the increases requested by both of your agencies reflect 
a focus on covering personnel and hiring.

    Question 1. Roughly half of the requested increase is for GAO's 
staffing pay needs (+$42.5 million), which includes hiring 50 employees 
by the end of fiscal year 2021. Under a flat budget, though, I assume 
you will not be making new hires, and staff could even be affected by 
furloughs. At what point would you have to make furloughs and what 
would that mean for GAO?

    Answer. If GAO had to operate at the fiscal year 2020 funding level 
in fiscal year 2021, it would have a significant effect on our ability 
to support Congress, negatively impacting both how long it would take 
to complete an audit as well as the number of audits we could 
undertake. On the staffing front it would mean that we could not 
replace expected attrition of about 160. Moreover, we estimate we would 
need to furlough everyone in GAO staff for about two weeks.
    An appropriation at our request level for fiscal year 2021, 
received at the beginning of the fiscal year, would allow us to hire 
the necessary staff to offset attrition and reach our optimal staffing 
level of 3,250 full time equivalents (FTE). At this time, we believe 
that 3,250 FTEs is the appropriate size for GAO to successfully 
accomplish our mission. However, depending on the emerging needs of the 
Congress, such as in science and technology, this may evolve over time.

    Question 2. Congress has given GAO considerable funding in recent 
years in an effort to build back staffing levels after a drop resulting 
from sequestration. How would a flat budget affect recent and current 
year hires and their capacity to produce?

    Answer. Under a flat budget, the staffing gains in recent years 
would be reversed. We would freeze hiring, not be able to replace 
attrition, and it would negatively impact our succession planning 
efforts. In addition, staff training opportunities would be curtailed, 
diminishing our ability to grow expertise in keys areas of interest to 
Congress. This will also have a negative effect on our ability to 
recruit in science and technology fields as outlined in our STAA 
staffing planned provided to the Committee in 2019 where we established 
a goal of growing the Team to 140 staff. A flat budget would also 
threaten our ability to implement recommendations by NAPA aimed at 
ensuring that STAA had the capacity to respond to the science and 
technology needs of the Congress.

    Question 3. What other practices would GAO have to implement under 
a flat budget--does this mean IT cuts? Less resources to buy 
specialized data? Cuts in building operations?

    Answer. GAO would postpone, slow, or halt altogether, any 
information technology initiatives and building improvement projects 
that we could. These delays would require us to continue to maintain 
obsolete systems planned for replacement and increase IT security risk. 
For example, our modernization plan requires a migration from Microsoft 
Office 2016 to Office 365. Office 365 includes additional security to 
allow the use of collaboration tools on any device, and would enable 
GAO to better interact with other agencies in government that have 
already implemented Office 365. Another major modernization project 
planned for fiscal year 2021 is the move away from our 30 year old 
document management system, our system for records. Our plan to 
modernize this system includes enhanced security measures, such a data 
at rest encryption embedded in the software. In addition, for building 
operations, we would continue to defer maintenance on the GAO building, 
which currently stands at over $80 million. Some of these projects, 
such as the replacement of our window blast protection film, would be 
canceled.
      gao legal decisions and timeliness (relating to ukraine aid)
    We want to ensure that GAO can continue to act as an independent, 
nonpartisan watchdog, has the tools it needs to remain that way, and 
can make these important rulings in timely and responsible manner. We 
saw this with its legal decision that said the Trump administration 
violated the Impoundment Control Act when the President himself 
substituted his own policy priorities for those that Congress had 
enacted into law and directed aid to Ukraine frozen based. GAO also 
found that this was not a programmatic delay, as the administration 
argued.

    Question 4. In important, high profile legal decisions such as 
OMB's withholding of Ukraine security assistance, does GAO ever feel 
pressure to rule one way or the other?

    Answer. GAO is a non-partisan, independent agency, and we apply the 
law to the pertinent facts to reach sound, unbiased conclusions. GAO 
frequently receives requests for legal decisions on contentious, high-
profile matters. Our independence and our rigorous internal review 
process ensure that our legal decisions are sound, persuasive, and free 
of any undue influence from outside parties. Our process and our 
reputation have earned GAO high institutional respect that endures even 
through the controversies that are inherent in the debates that arise 
in our democratic system of government.

    Question 5. How does GAO ensure it acts as an independent, 
nonpartisan watchdog when issuing decisions?

    Answer.  GAO issues legal decisions pursuant to a thorough, 
rigorous, and consistent process. Members or agencies who request legal 
decisions may submit their legal views to us as part of their request, 
and our usual practice involves seeking relevant facts and the legal 
views of the agencies that are the subject of our request. Our process 
is informed by the procedural guidelines described in our document 
titled Procedures and Practices for Legal Decisions and Opinions, which 
is available on GAO's Web site. Through this process, we establish a 
record considering various viewpoints, which is essential to any sound 
exercise of legal analysis. After we establish the relevant record, we 
independently consider the record and the relevant statutes and legal 
precedents to reach our decision.
    No one outside of GAO is involved in our legal deliberations, and 
all stakeholders and the public learn of our conclusions only upon the 
issuance of our decision. This process ensures that our conclusions 
reflect the rigor of consideration of various views and of thorough 
internal analysis by GAO attorneys. Under this process, outside 
parties, including those who requested a decision and the relevant 
agencies, do not take part in the deliberative process, ensuring our 
independence and non-partisanship.

    Question 6. We began seeing evidence of the Trump administration 
withholding Ukraine aid in late July 2019. Because of apportionment 
schedules, meaning when the money is set to go out, did GAO have to 
wait until the end of the fiscal year to begin its assessment of 
whether or not the Trump administration's actions were illegal?

    Answer. Under the Impoundment Control Act, improper withholdings 
can occur at any time in the fiscal year, and a withholding may be 
improper even if the funds are ultimately obligated before they expire. 
We do not need to wait until the end of a fiscal year to determine 
whether a withholding is improper, and we did not do so here.

    Question 7. Are changes needed in law to allow GAO to identify 
possible problems, such as what happened with the Ukraine aid freeze, 
and speed up the process when it comes to these sorts of decisions?

    Answer. The Impoundment Control Act requires the Comptroller 
General to report to Congress any impoundment that the President has 
failed to report. It would be impractical to attempt to continuously 
review every account of the government, and we have found that this is 
unnecessary. When an unreported withholding takes place, concerned 
Members or Committees of Congress or intended recipients of the 
withheld funds typically bring it to our attention, or we learn of it 
through our general audit process.
    Congress could, however, enact legislation to impose requirements 
on the executive branch that could aid in oversight of these matters. 
For example, Congress could require agencies to report rates of 
obligation or to provide an accounting of unobligated appropriations at 
the end of each fiscal year.

    Question 8. Does current appropriations law give too much 
discretion to OMB on delaying or spending funding enacted by Congress?

    Answer. The Constitution grants the President no unilateral 
authority to withhold funds from obligation. Instead, Congress has 
vested the President with strictly circumscribed authority to withhold 
budget authority only in limited circumstances as expressly provided in 
the Impoundment Control Act. To permissibly withhold budget authority, 
the President must submit a special message to Congress, and may do so 
only consistent with the terms of the Impoundment Control Act.\1\ For 
example, the Impoundment Control Act does not give the President a 
mechanism to unilaterally extend the period of availability of a fixed-
period appropriation.\2\
    Congress could legislatively restrict the authority to reapportion 
the funds to particular circumstances. An appropriations bill would be 
a ready mechanism through which to accomplish this.

    Question 9. This White House argued that it had the right to 
determine the ``best use of such funds,'' which ignored Congress's 
power to set spending requirements. Is there a gray area that 
contributes to spending delays that can or should be fixed 
legislatively?

    Answer. While the Impoundment Control Act is clear on the issue of 
spending delays, Congress could enact amendments to the Act to further 
reinforce its power of the purse. Specifically, ICA does not permit the 
President to temporarily withhold funds because he disagrees with 
enacted legislative policy.\3\ And, the burden to justify a withholding 
of budget authority as proper under the Act rests with the executive 
branch.
    However, Congress could incorporate measures within an agency's 
appropriations act or within permanent provisions of law to reduce the 
amount of discretion that an agency has with regard to the execution of 
its appropriations.
    Specifically, Congress could consider the following:

    Line item appropriations. Congress could consider enacting line 
item appropriations, as opposed to lump sum appropriations, designating 
that a particular amount, or a maximum or a minimum amount, be 
obligated for a specific program or area.
    Incorporation by reference. Congress could explicitly incorporate 
into the law by reference any requirements for the obligation of funds 
that it has included in report language, giving such requirements the 
force of law.
    Specificity in lump sum appropriations. Congress could specify in 
lump sum appropriations specific amounts for particular activities, 
which would facilitate congressional control over agency spending.
    Time limitations. Congress could consider enacting more stringent 
time limitations to increase oversight of agency obligations. For 
example, Congress could divide amounts into quarterly periods of 
availability or enact time-limited appropriations rather than no-year 
appropriations for particular accounts.
    Legislative apportionment. Congress could legislatively restrict 
the authority to reapportion the funds to particular circumstances. An 
appropriations bill would be a ready mechanism through which to 
accomplish this.
    Conditions precedent to the availability of funds. Where Congress 
would like more oversight over a program, Congress could condition the 
availability of funds for the particular program on the submission to 
the budget and appropriations committees of a spend plan or other such 
document demonstrating the agency's preparedness to obligate its 
appropriation prudently.
    Reporting requirements. Congress could require agencies to report 
rates of obligation or to provide an accounting of unobligated 
appropriations at the end of each fiscal year.
    Reprogramming limitations/notifications. Congress could enact 
government-wide reprogramming limitations to restrict the degree to 
which an agency's obligations may deviate from its budget submissions. 
Congress could also enact reprogramming notification requirements.
    Limitations on transfer authority. Congress could amend existing 
transfer authorities to reduce agency discretion, to establish program-
specific conditions precedent to an agency's use of such authority, or 
to otherwise restrict an agency's use of such authorities.
    Requiring timely and prudent obligations. Congress could 
legislatively affirm that budget authority withheld under the 
Impoundment Control Act must be made available in time to be prudently 
obligated, as GAO opined in Impoundment Control Act--Withholding of 
Funds through Their Date of Expiration.\4\
    Penalties for violations of the Impoundment Control Act. Congress 
could penalize agencies' withholdings of budget authority that do not 
comply with the Impoundment Control Act, as reported by GAO. For 
example, Congress could enact a provision similar to the government-
wide anti-gag provision prohibiting the use of appropriations for 
paying the salary of an officer or employee who does not make funds 
available as required.\5\
           science, technology assessment, and analytics team
    Both I and many of my colleagues are interested in ways we can make 
Congress more informed when it comes to science and technology policy 
challenges that face our nation.
    The fiscal year 2019 Legislative Branch Appropriations conference 
report asked GAO to reorganize its technology and science function by 
creating a new, more prominent office within GAO. In response to this, 
GAO created its own Science, Technology Assessment, and Analytics 
(STAA) team to build on GAO's longtime record of providing Congress 
with science and technology analysis. GAO's fiscal year 2020 
appropriations and fiscal year 2021 request place a priority on 
increasing its capabilities, including doubling the number of STAA 
staff experts to 140 by the end of fiscal year 2021, to review the 
opportunities and challenges associated with evolving science and 
technology issues.

    Question 10. How is the STAA team expanding and enhancing GAO's 
capabilities in scientific and technological assessments?

    Answer. Since the creation of STAA in January 2019, we have 
dramatically enhanced our ability to provide Congress with thorough and 
balanced analyses of technological and scientific developments that 
affect society, the environment, and the economy. As we reported in a 
December 2019 congressional testimony, consistent with our 2019 plan, 
we are continuing to increase our work capacity, expand our use of 
policy options, develop new product types, and stand up our Innovation 
Lab focused on advanced analysis and emerging technologies. 
Specifically in September 2019, we introduced a new product--two-page 
explainers called Science & Tech Spotlights--that provide information 
to Congress in an agile, responsive way.
    These high-level snapshots of emerging S&T topics are issued within 
a few weeks of starting the work, and provide an overview of how the 
science or technology works, opportunities and challenges, and policy 
context and questions. These products are now being distributed to 
approximately 200 staffers who have relevant policy expertise and 
interest in the topic. For example, we recently issued a Spotlight on 
coronaviruses and will soon issue several others on social distancing, 
diagnostic testing technologies, modeling and simulation, and vaccine 
research and development.
    We also have developed a more tightly scoped technical assessment 
that will allow us to fill a need among policymakers for a quicker, 
shorter product that is more useful and actionable. We recently issued 
a shorter, descriptive technology assessment on forensic technology/
algorithms used in Federal law enforcement such as face recognition and 
probabilistic genotyping systems (GAO-20-479SP). Over time, we expect 
that these types of products will enable us to develop a larger body of 
reporting on any given topic while supporting Congress's science and 
technology oversight agenda.
    We also continued to expand and enhance our external networks 
across the scientific community. For example, we also issued our first 
joint technology assessment with the National Academy of Medicine on 
the use of AI for drug development (GAO-20-215SP). We will continue to 
partner with other scientific organizations when appropriate.
    To build our science and technology capacity and capabilities, we 
have also continued to hire in specialized areas such as biological, 
computer and physical scientists;, electrical, systems, and 
environmental engineers; science policy analysts; and digital/visual 
communicators. Despite the current coronavirus pandemic, we are 
continuing to hire and onboard additional specialists--including staff 
with specialized expertise in microbiology, vaccine development, and 
epidemiology--that will enable us to reach a staff size of 90-100 by 
the end of fiscal year 2020.
    GAO also established the Innovation Lab within STAA as an 
experimental, project-based, research and development environment to 
explore advanced analytics and emerging technologies such as digital 
ledger technology and machine learning (ML) systems. Leveraging the 
power of an advanced cloud computing architecture, the Lab will 
collaborate with GAO mission teams and key external partners to ideate, 
incubate, iterate, and evaluate prototypes to achieve two objectives: 
(1) improving how mission teams tackle questions that may be able to 
benefit from advanced analytics, and (2) understanding quality 
assurance and/or oversight opportunities and challenges stemming from 
implementation of advanced analytics and emerging technologies.
    The Lab is an agile, problem-driven, customer-centric organization 
to drive next generation oversight, insight, and foresight capabilities 
that can meet the demands of a digitally connected world. Examples of 
key challenges the Lab will be addressing that build on GAO's unique 
capabilities and access to Federal information include:

  --addressing improper payments and improving payment integrity by 
        developing and proposing a novel risk scoring system 
        customizable for executive departments and agencies;
  --developing prototype digital ledger systems and means of evaluating 
        their capabilities given their importance as emerging financial 
        management systems;
  --issuing a first-of-its-kind framework for algorithmic oversight and 
        accountability for AI/ML systems; and
  --sharing lessons learned, leading practices, and artifacts with 
        oversight community stakeholders to avoid ``reinventing 
        wheels.''

    Question 11. What are your plans for the team's staffing, 
resources, and areas of expertise?

    Answer. To support the growing demand for our work, STAA has 
reached 86 on-board staff (as of May 1, 2020), including new hires in 
specialized areas such as biological; computer and physical scientists; 
electrical, systems, and environmental engineers; science policy 
analysts, and digital/visual communicators. Despite the current 
coronavirus pandemic, we are continuing to hire and onboard additional 
specialists--including staff with specialized expertise in 
microbiology, vaccine development, and epidemiology--that will enable 
us to reach a staff size of 90-100 by the end of fiscal year 2020. Our 
goal is to build the staff to 140 by the end of fiscal year 2021, but 
this would not be possible under a flat budget scenario. This increase 
in personnel allows us to bring more dedicated staff resources to each 
project, thereby enabling us to complete increasingly complex and broad 
projects more expeditiously.
    Specifically for the Innovation Lab, we are exercising direct 
hiring authority to recruit and onboard a team of data scientists and 
technologists. Envisioned to be similar to a start-up, this 
entrepreneurially-minded team will have multidisciplinary competencies, 
and will develop a variety of rapid analytics and proof-of-concept 
prototypes in support of GAO's mission teams. The Innovation Lab is 
also doing outreach to universities with programs that have a nexus 
between data analytics and public policy in order to build recruitment 
pipelines and enable advanced research projects.

    Question 12. What products and services will this team provide to 
Congress?

    Answer. STAA has expanded its product mix to include more short-to-
medium term reports and responded to numerous requests for technical 
assistance. We have also worked to expand our client base to include a 
wider range of committees and subcommittees.
    In September of 2019, we published an entirely new product line--
two-page explainers called Science & Tech Spotlights--to provide 
information to Congress in an agile, responsive way. These high-level 
snapshots of emerging S&T topics are issued within a few weeks of 
starting the work, and provide an overview of how the science or 
technology works, opportunities and challenges, and policy context and 
questions. Previous Spotlights have addressed Blockchain (GAO-19-
704SP), hypersonic weapons (GAO-19-705SP), opioid vaccines (GAO-19-
706SP), nuclear microreactors (GAO-20-380SP),and probabilistic 
genotyping software (GAO-19-707SP), 5G wireless technology (GAO-20-
412SP); CRISPR (clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic 
repeats) gene editing (GAO-20-478SP); and deep fake videos (GAO-20-
379SP). In response to the COVID-19 pandemic, we have issued a 
Spotlight on coronaviruses (GAO-20-472SP) and social distancing (GAO-
20-545SP) and will soon issue others on diagnostic testing 
technologies, infectious disease modeling and simulation, and vaccine 
research and development.
    Our outreach to the Hill upon the issuance of Spotlights has become 
more sophisticated, with most recent Spotlights now being distributed 
to approximately 200 staffers who have relevant policy expertise and 
interest in the topic.
    In addition, we have tightened our technology assessments so they 
focus on 1-2 questions, have clearly articulated policy options, and 
can be completed in about 6 months. For example, we have just issued a 
shorter, descriptive technology assessment on forensic technology/
algorithms used in Federal law enforcement such as face recognition and 
probabilistic genotyping systems (see GAO-20-479SP). We expect that 
these more tightly scoped products will allow us to fill a need among 
policymakers for a quicker and more timely cadence of reporting that is 
more useful and actionable. Over time, this allows us to develop a 
larger body of reporting on any given topic while supporting Congress's 
oversight agenda.
    We are actively providing technical assistance in response to 
numerous requests from committees and individual Members in both the 
House and Senate on a variety of COVID-related topics. These include 
modeling, disease progression and statistics, diagnostic tests, vaccine 
development, and the potential for disease transfer to livestock. This 
includes assistance in response to requests from the Senate Committees 
on Agriculture; Armed Services; Commerce; and Homeland Security and 
Governmental Affairs; as well as the House Committees on 
Administration; Energy and Commerce; Oversight and Reform; Science, 
Space, and Technology; and Veterans Affairs.
    Since its formation the team has issued work on a wide array of 
critical S&T topics. This includes the following technical assessments:

  --Forensic Technology.--Algorithms Used in Federal Law Enforcement, 
        GAO-20-479SP
  --Science & Tech Spotlight.--CRISPR Gene Editing, GAO-20-478SP
  --Science & Tech Spotlight.--Coronaviruses, GAO-20-472SP
  --Sexual Harassment Policies.--Smithsonian Has Procedures for 
        Prevention, but Could Improve Guidance and Monitoring, GAO-20-
        414R
  --Science & Tech Spotlight.--5G Wireless, GAO-20-412SP
  --Science & Tech Spotlight.--Nuclear Microreactors, GAO-20-380SP
  --Science & Tech Spotlight.--Deepfakes, GAO-20-379SP
  --Innovative Technologies in Manufacturing.--Commerce Has Stopped 
        Efforts to Implement Loan Guarantee Program, GAO-20-326R
  --Science and Technology.--Overview of GAO's Enhanced Capabilities to 
        Provide Oversight, Insight, and Foresight, GAO-20-306T
  --Federally Funded Research and Development Centers.--Improved 
        Oversight and Evaluation Needed for DoD's Data Access Pilot 
        Program, GAO-20-272
  --National Science Foundation.--Cost and Schedule Performance of 
        Major Facilities Construction Projects and Progress on Prior 
        GAO Recommendations, GAO-20-268
  --Technology Assessment Design Handbook, GAO-20-246G
  --Artificial Intelligence in Health Care.--Benefits and Challenges of 
        Machine Learning in Drug Development, GAO-20-215SP
  --Cost Estimating and Assessment Guide.--Best Practices for 
        Developing and Managing Program Costs, GAO-20-195G
  --Sexual Harassment in STEM Research.--Agencies Have Taken Actions, 
        but Need Complaint Procedures, Overall Plans, and Better 
        Collaboration, GAO-20-187
  --Irrigated Agriculture.--Technologies, Practices, and Implications 
        for Water Scarcity, GAO-20-128SP
  --Federal Research.--Additional Actions Needed to Improve Public 
        Access to Research Results, GAO-20-81
  --Technology Readiness Assessment Guide.--Best Practices for 
        Evaluating the Readiness of Technology for Use in Acquisition 
        Programs and Projects, GAO-20-48G
  --Science & Tech Spotlight.--Probabilistic Genotyping Software, GAO-
        19-707SP
  --Science & Tech Spotlight.--Opioid Vaccines, GAO-19-706SP
  --Science & Tech Spotlight.--Hypersonic Weapons, GAO-19-705SP
  --Science & Tech Spotlight.--Blockchain & Distributed Ledger 
        Technologies, GAO-19-704SP
  --Federal Research.--Agency Actions Could Strengthen Scientific 
        Integrity Policies, GAO-19-674T
  --Chemical Innovation.--Technologies for Making Products and 
        Processes More Sustainable, GAO-19-660T
  --Animal Use in Research.--Federal Agencies Should Assess and Report 
        on Their Efforts to Develop and Promote Alternatives, GAO-19-
        629
  --Small Business Research Programs.--Many Agencies Took Longer to 
        Issue Small Business Awards than Recommended, GAO-19-620
  --Sexual Harassment in STEM Research.--Preliminary Observations on 
        Policies for University Grantees and Information Sharing among 
        Selected Agencies, GAO-19-583T
  --Advanced Manufacturing.--Innovation Institutes Have Demonstrated 
        Initial Accomplishments, but Challenges Remain in Measuring 
        Performance and Ensuring Sustainability, GAO-19-409
  --Scientific Integrity Policies.--Additional Actions Could Strengthen 
        Integrity of Federal Research, GAO-19-265
  --National Science Foundation.--Cost and Schedule Performance of 
        Large Facilities Construction Projects and Opportunities to 
        Improve Project Management, GAO-19-227
  --Manufacturing Extension Partnership.--Centers Cite Benefits from 
        Funding Change, but Impacts Hard to Distinguish from Other 
        Factors, GAO-19-219
  --Small Business Innovation Research.--Few Agencies Made Awards to 
        Small Businesses Majority-Owned by Multiple Venture Capital 
        Operating Companies, Hedge Funds, or Private Equity Firms, GAO-
        19-205R

    Finally, we also are leveraging the computational capacity of the 
Innovation Lab to proactively track COVID-related State and county 
level statistics and official actions with the goal of identifying 
potential second wave infections.

    Question 13. What technical assistance and technology tools are 
GAO's science and technology team providing to Congress?

    Answer. We are actively providing technical assistance to a number 
of committees and individual members on topics ranging from blockchain/
distributed ledger technologies to most recently, COVID-19 topics such 
as modeling, statistical analysis, filtration materials for nonmedical 
masks, testing, and diagnostics, vaccine development, and the potential 
for disease transfer to livestock. We have also provided technical 
assistance on other topics, such as 5G and weather satellites, NIST's 
reauthorization, and the Smithsonian's sexual harassment work policies. 
This includes assistance in response to requests from the Senate 
Committees on Agriculture; Armed Services; Commerce; and Homeland 
Security and Governmental Affairs; as well as the House Committees on 
Administration; Energy and Commerce; Oversight and Reform; Science, 
Space, and Technology; and Veterans Affairs.
    GAO has also issued a Technology Readiness Assessment Guide (GAO-
20-48G) to provide a better understanding of technology maturity and a 
framework for conducting high-quality technology readiness assessments. 
We also are continuing the development and use of technical guides to 
assess major Federal acquisitions and technology programs in cost 
estimating and schedule planning.
    In addition to working on specific foresight-related products, our 
staff continually perform horizon scanning to support Congress. 
Further, awareness and evaluation of trends in science and technology 
are part of our ongoing strategic planning efforts in GAO's 2018-2023 
Strategic Plan for Serving Congress and the Nation, including genome 
editing, artificial intelligence and automation, quantum information 
science, brain computer interfaces and augmented reality, and 
cryptocurrencies and blockchain. Our staff track advancements in these 
areas to inform our current and future products and services.
    In addition, another team that STAA works closely with on 
technology and cybersecurity issues--GAO's Information Technology & 
Cybersecurity Team--continues to assist the Congress in performing 
oversight of the Federal Government's management of more than $90 
billion spent on information technology (IT) every year. For example, 
since 2015, GAO's IT & Cybersecurity Team has helped the House 
Oversight committee produce a series of 10 biannual scorecards which 
measure agencies' implementation of key pieces of IT management and 
cybersecurity legislation. Prior to every new scorecard, the team uses 
its expertise to provide (1) advice to committee members and their 
staff as they update the categories of evaluation and (2) the technical 
assistance necessary to grade the measures they select. As a result, 
the committee held nine hearings--increasing oversight of and attention 
to agencies' efforts to effectively manage and protect their IT.

    Question 14. What emerging science and technology issues has GAO's 
new team identified that Congress needs to be focusing on?

    Answer. STAA has identified a wide range of emerging science and 
technology issues of importance to Congress and Federal agencies over 
the short and longer-term, and is working to provide information that 
will meet those needs. We have ongoing assessments of 5G wireless 
technologies; alternatives to GPS for positioning, navigation, and 
timing; and artificial intelligence for medical services--the latter 
topic being done in partnership with the National academy of Medicine. 
We are about to issue a technical assessment on infectious disease 
modeling and also have ongoing work on the BioDetection 21 system as a 
potential replacement for the nation's BioWatch system. These are all 
issues that warrant congressional attention.
    We also have assessments underway that include examining Federal 
agencies' use of facial recognition technology; how government-owned 
intellectual property has contributed to the development of 
commercially-available drugs and medical devices; small business 
research programs; the Manufacturing USA network; and technology 
transfer activities at the Department of Energy. In September 2020, we 
will host a forum on the oversight of artificial intelligence.
    Over the longer-term, Congress and Federal agencies will continue 
to face other science and technology issues beyond those related to 
COVID-19 and other emerging diseases. For example, artificial 
intelligence accountability and oversight, blockchain/distributed 
ledger technologies, quantum information science, chemical weapons 
detection and attribution, carbon capture and decarbonization 
technologies, cloud IT cybersecurity, and gene editing/genomic 
technologies represent important focus areas for Congress, in order to 
understand the potential implications for Federal agency missions and 
the American public.
    Additionally, Congress will continue to face policy and oversight 
issues related to the conduct and efficacy of the Federal research 
enterprise. These include, for example, a range of issues related to 
the management and oversight of federally-funded research, ensuring 
that intellectual property systems incorporate the desired safeguards 
and incentives to support U.S. innovation, and maximizing the 
effectiveness of Federal agencies' efforts to support U.S. 
competitiveness in advanced manufacturing.
    Related to the COVID-19 pandemic, we will soon be issuing a number 
of COVID-related Spotlights on issues such as disease modeling, 
diagnostic testing, and vaccine development. We plan to follow these 
Spotlights with full reports providing additional insights into Federal 
actions in these areas. STAA is also working as part of GAO's agency 
wide effort to develop information to help Congress understand how key 
science agencies have responded to the COVID-19 pandemic, for example, 
through the research they fund, and how they are coordinating their 
efforts.
                      center for audit excellence
    The GAO fiscal year 2021 request includes a $1.4 million increase 
for the Center for Audit Excellence. Five years ago, we authorized GAO 
to establish the Center to build institutional auditing capacity and 
promote good governance through training and assistance to Federal, 
State, local and other national audit offices worldwide. The Center has 
helped improve oversight of U.S. foreign assistance (approximately $34 
billion in fiscal year 2019) and allows us to hold governments 
accountable for using public funds efficiently and effectively, and 
deterring and identifying corruption.

    Question 15. Can you give us specific examples of the Center 
working with international organizations? What about examples for 
working with domestic organizations?

    Answer. The Center has provided fee-based services to audit 
organizations in a dozen countries around the world. These services 
have been funded by audit organizations and donors such as the U.S. 
Agency for International Development (USAID), the Millennium Challenge 
Corporation (MCC), and the World Bank. Specifically, the Center has 
completed or has projects underway in Georgia, Latvia, Armenia, Benin, 
Kosovo, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Mexico, the Philippines, Kuwait, 
Dubai (United Arab Emirates), and Saudi Arabia. Some examples of donor-
funded projects are included below.

  --USAID/Philippines Project.--The Center is providing training, 
        mentoring and policy advice to the Philippines Commission on 
        Audit to help expand and improve the Commission's capacity to 
        conduct performance audits. This ongoing 3-year $1.2 million 
        project funded by USAID has trained over 50 auditors to date in 
        performance auditing and is helping the Commission to produce 
        high quality audits that assess the efficiency and 
        effectiveness of government programs related to healthcare, 
        environmental issues, and other sectors.
  --Millennium Challenge Corporation/Honduras Project.--MCC obligated 
        $180,000 in funding for the Center to assist the Honduras 
        supreme audit institution to improve its performance audit 
        capacity. During this project, which was completed in 2019, the 
        Center provided multiple training classes, helped the Honduras 
        supreme audit institution to develop a high quality performance 
        audit manual, and mentored Honduran auditors in completing a 
        successful and well-received performance audit.
  --Georgia/World Bank Project.--The Center provided services to the 
        Georgia supreme audit institution to help improve its capacity 
        to conduct information technology (IT) audits. Center auditors 
        with expertise in IT audits provided a 10-day training class to 
        improve Georgia auditors' knowledge of IT audit standards and 
        methodologies. The Center then provided advice and coaching 
        services to assist Georgia in conducting two audits of 
        cybersecurity practices that identified numerous 
        recommendations for improvement. The World Bank funded this 
        $95,000 project.

    The Center has also provided fee-based training and technical 
assistance services to over two dozen domestic organizations including 
Federal inspectors general (IG), State audit offices and local audit 
organizations. Center instructors have provided training and/or 
mentoring services to over a dozen Federal and Federal-affiliated IG 
offices including the USAID, State Department, Department of Labor, 
Department of Homeland Security, Department of Veterans Affairs, U.S. 
Postal Service, and several others. For example, the Center has 
provided training on performance auditing to the USAID IG, Department 
of Labor IG and several other IG offices.
    In addition, the Center has provided training and other services to 
almost a dozen State and local accountability organizations. For 
example, the Center recently provided six training sessions on data 
analytics to the New York State Office of the Comptroller. The Center 
also provided training on data reliability and audit planning to the 
Massachusetts State Auditor's Office.

    Question 16. How much has the CAE saved American taxpayers in 
providing accountability training and technical assistance to 
governments abroad and in the U.S.?

    Answer. Our primary objective is to strengthen government 
accountability over government accountability and increase the range of 
performance audits done to increase government efficiency and 
effectiveness. Our experience shows that this will lead to savings over 
time if audits are of a high quality. Enhancing domestic and 
international accountability organizations' capacity to conduct audits 
can help to ensure that Federal funds and donor assistance are being 
properly accounted for and used effectively, efficiently and for 
appropriate purposes.
    Recent Center projects illustrate how domestic and international 
accountability organizations have benefited from Center training and 
technical assistance. For example:

  --The Center has provided training on Government Audit Standards and 
        Federal Internal Control standards to auditors from several 
        Federal inspector general offices. This training has helped to 
        improve Federal auditors' knowledge and ability to apply 
        standards to produce high quality audits.
  --The Center has also worked with several Federal inspectors general 
        to help their offices improve the quality and efficiency of 
        audit planning, which can help to reduce labor hours and time 
        needed to complete audits.
  --The Center has helped some Federal audit organizations to address 
        weaknesses identified during past peer reviews and/or prepare 
        their staff for upcoming peer reviews. Passing peer reviews and 
        correcting weaknesses identified in past reviews is critical 
        for government audit organizations to demonstrate to the public 
        that audit findings are based on credible, high quality work 
        done in accordance with government audit standards.

    Through its partnerships with USAID and the MCC, the Center has 
also helped to improve audit quality and enhanced accountability in 
several developing countries that receive U.S. foreign assistance.

  --As noted above, the Center's project in Honduras, which was funded 
        by MCC, enabled the Honduras audit office to complete a high 
        quality audit of port operations that included numerous 
        recommendations for improvements and was well received by the 
        audited organization.
  --In 2019, the Center also conducted a comprehensive needs assessment 
        of Armenia's supreme audit institution that identified 
        opportunities to improve Armenia's financial audits, quality 
        assurance process, and made recommendations in numerous other 
        areas. This assessment has helped USAID to focus future 
        capacity building assistance on high priority needs and is 
        helping the Armenia supreme audit institution to undertake 
        reforms and improve its approach to financial audits. Improving 
        the quality of financial audits can help to enhance the 
        accountability of government agencies, prevent and/or identify 
        fraud, and achieve numerous other benefits for Armenia's 
        citizens.

    The Center has traditionally relied on GAO retirees for operations 
and training and technical assistance services. Your fiscal year 2021 
budget requests to use up to 5 permanent staff to enable the Center to 
meet increased demand for services and cost-effectively support Center 
operations.

    Question 17. What increases in demands for Center services are you 
seeing that merits permanent staff and an appropriations increase that 
would more than double the Center's budget (from $1.1 million in fiscal 
year 2020 to $2.5 million in fiscal year 2021 request)?

    Answer. The Center expects to experience a significant increase in 
demand for both international and domestic services during fiscal year 
2021 and beyond. In light of the COVID-19 situation and ongoing 
restrictions on travel, the Center plans to meet this growing demand to 
the extent possible by developing a capability to provide virtual 
training and coaching. As awareness of the Center and its services has 
grown during its first few years of operation, international audit 
organizations and donors have increasingly sought out the Center for 
help in building audit capacity. Moreover, the Center has entered into 
partnerships and signed Memoranda of Understanding with USAID and the 
World Bank, which has led to increasing demand for Center services.
    Both the number and dollar value of agreements has grown during the 
past 2 years and the Center expects this trend to continue.

  --The Center currently has two large multi-year projects funded by 
        USAID to assist supreme audit organizations in the Philippines 
        and the Dominican Republic to improve their skills in 
        conducting high quality financial and performance audits. USAID 
        plans to reimburse the Center for costs up to $1.4 million for 
        each of these projects.
  --The Center expects to sign at least three additional multi-year 
        agreements with USAID in the next few months. USAID expects to 
        allocate at least $1 million each for two of these projects and 
        $350,000 for the third project.
  --The Center expects to begin signing agreements within the next few 
        months with the World Bank to help build the capacity of 
        Supreme Audit Institutions around the world.
  --The Center therefore estimates that the value of signed 
        international agreements will likely exceed $5 million at the 
        end of fiscal year 2020. Since most of these projects will 
        range from 1-3 years, revenue associated with these projects 
        will be received incrementally over a period of 3 years or so. 
        Moreover, the Center sees potential for further growth in 
        demand in fiscal year 2021 and beyond as it leverages the 
        Center's partnerships with donors, relationships with supreme 
        audit institutions around the world, and reputation as a high 
        quality services provider.

    Demand for Center services from domestic audit organizations has 
also grown during the past few years and the Center expects this trend 
to continue. The Center has experienced a significant amount of repeat 
business due to positive feedback while also providing services to new 
organizations. In addition, the Center is plans to begin offering 
virtual/online training classes in the last quarter of fiscal year 2020 
and anticipates expanding this effort in fiscal year 2021. The Center 
anticipates that virtual/online training options will particularly 
increase demand from State and local audits as well as IG field 
offices.
    To help manage the expected increase in demand, GAO is seeking 
permission to use up to five full time equivalent (FTE) positions in 
fiscal year 2021 to enable the Center to provide continuity of 
operations, meet increased demand for Center services and cost-
effectively support Center operations. First, the Center would like to 
add two permanent Professional Technical positions to perform some 
routine operations support that is currently being provided by GAO 
retirees. Examples of duties would include coordinating preparation and 
distribution of training course materials; managing administrative 
tasks for projects; and preparing and tracking financial data. This 
would help to free up retirees to serve as project specialists and 
instructors.
    In addition, as the number of international projects expands, the 
Center plans to continue to primarily rely on retirees to provide 
training and technical assistance services to international audit 
organizations. However, the Center has learned that it would be 
beneficial to be able to use temporary hires to meet specific skills 
and language needs for some international projects and is therefore 
requesting authority to use three FTEs for this purpose.

    Question 18. How much with the number of international project 
expand? What sorts of services do you anticipate providing to 
international audit organizations?

    Answer. The Center anticipates that the number and dollar value of 
revenue from international projects will increase significantly in 
fiscal year 2020 and beyond due to increased awareness of Center 
services and Center partnerships with donors and supreme audit 
institutions around the world.
    The Center has provided numerous services to international audit 
organizations including training, mentoring, and advice in developing 
and implementing institutional policies and procedures. For example, 
the Center has provided training courses on topics such as performance 
auditing, audit planning, evidence, data reliability, internal control, 
message development and report writing, and information technology 
audits. Center project specialists, who typically have decades of 
experience in planning and leading audits, also frequently mentor audit 
teams from other supreme audit institutions in planning audits, 
gathering and analyzing evidence, and identifying and reporting on 
audit findings.
    The Center also provides a wide range of services to help 
international audit organizations develop or improve institutional 
policies and procedures in order to comply with international standards 
for supreme audit institutions. For example, the Center can help 
supreme audit institutions to develop or improve strategic plans, 
quality assurance procedures, audit manuals, stakeholder engagement 
policies, and recommendation follow-up systems. The Center expects to 
continue providing services in all of these areas as it continues to 
expand its work with international audit organizations.
                     increases for it modernization
    The GAO fiscal year 2021 request includes an increase of $12 
million to support ongoing IT programs. That is considerably 
substantial compared to current levels.

    Question 19. What are the major challenges GAO faces in trying to 
modernize your IT systems?

    Answer. GAO's information technology infrastructure serves as the 
backbone/foundation upon which all its work is produced. As such, this 
vital function must constantly be updated, improved, and secured. In 
fiscal year 2020, GAO rolled out a new updated virtual desktop 
infrastructure that enhances staff's ability to perform its duties in a 
secure and robust environment. This project, funded by Congress, 
enabled GAO to smoothly transition immediately to an agency-wide 
telework operating environment during this national emergency.
    While the Committee has supported GAO to improve its capacity to 
support Congress, there remains very important work to accomplish. 
GAO's priorities for IT development in fiscal year 2021 includes 
consolidating and virtualizing data center software and infrastructure 
with automatic failover for business continuity and disaster recovery 
capability needs and continuing migration to a primarily cloud 
computing infrastructure.
    As we make this transition to a more cloud centric infrastructure, 
we are focused on transitioning away from customized legacy 
applications. While we have been able to upgrade some of our legacy 
systems, other of GAO's key systems that support its ability to provide 
support to the Congress are extremely dated and need to be replaced. In 
fiscal year 2020, we are developing the requirements for replacing our 
30-year-old content and records management system used to do our audits 
with a modern and secure cloud Enterprise Content Management solution. 
In the long term, this new system will allow our employees to work more 
efficiently and at the same time improve GAO's efficiency by 
eliminating custom code and using commercial off the shelf software. In 
fiscal year 2021, GAO will build off this requirements analysis to 
procure this important new system that will truly modernize the 
agency's fundamental tools and establish a solid foundation for the 
coming years. This new system will also have important security updates 
to make our data more secure.
    Additionally, in fiscal year 2021, GAO plans to complete its 
development and deployment of our platform to edit, fact check and 
distribute our reports (New Blue). New Blue will streamline the 
publishing processes to enable efficient and scalable publication of 
products in a responsive web-based format intended to accommodate the 
rising demand for content that is accessible on mobile devices and can 
be quickly and easily navigated by congressional staff during hearings 
or by users on the go.
    Throughout these projects, GAO will enhance its security posture 
through improved and new security tools and infrastructure, while 
maintaining compliance with policy and Federal standards.
    As part of our ongoing modernization effort, GAO is shifting shift 
from a capitalization expense model that relies on in-house builds and 
software that can quickly become outdated to a more stable and 
efficient operational expense model that will allow us to scale 
services on an as-needed basis without incurring the cost of buying 
additional software or hardware. Additional funding is needed to take 
these steps to continue our modernization efforts.

    Question 20. What efficiencies are you looking to employ through IT 
modernization?

    Answer.The primary efficiencies we seek to employ involve retiring 
aging legacy systems for more reliable and available managed service 
environments. GAO's goal is to implement a strategy that will allow us 
to migrate to cloud-based services, modernize and streamline our 
technology footprint, and position ourselves for a more predictable 
operating expense budget. This type of modernization will allow us to 
scale up and down in terms of IT technology on an as-needed basis 
without incurring the additional cost for IT capacity that may go 
unused for long periods of time. This scalability also allows us to be 
more flexible and responsive in times of increased oversight needs, 
such as during the current pandemic. We will complete the rollout of 
major Unified Communication Tools to that enable GAO employees to 
continue to work efficiently in a virtual work environment, increase 
efficiency, and provide additional collaboration capabilities.

    Question 21. How will IT modernization improve GAO's ability to 
develop and distribute your reports?

    Answer. Our efforts to modernize our report creation and 
distribution process is dependent on GAO having a modern IT 
infrastructure. New Blue enhancements will enable efficient and 
scalable publication of additional products types in a responsive web-
based format intended to accommodate the rising demand for content that 
is accessible on mobile devices and can be quickly and easily navigated 
by users on the go.
    Our issued products are also heavily dependent on document 
management, and the modernized Enterprise Content Management solution 
will enable enhanced functionality, including security, knowledge 
management, workflow automation, and business process management. This 
solution will exceed our existing document and records management 
capabilities, and will do so with less administrative burden on 
employees.
    GAO also plans to expand our IT capacity to meet increased 
analytics demands, including support for the new Science, Technology 
Assessment, and Analytics (STAA) Team and Audit Innovation Lab. The 
Innovation Lab will help GAO meet Congress's growing need for science 
and technology support. It provides GAO analysts with access to new 
technologies and test environments to enable GAO data scientists to 
apply emerging methods such as artificial intelligence and distributed 
ledger technology to large data sets.

    Question 22. What are the impacts if we cannot make investments now 
in GAO's IT systems?

    Answer. GAO is requesting funds to implement a strategy that will 
allow us to migrate to cloud-based services, modernize and streamline 
our technology footprint, and position ourselves for a more predictable 
operating expense budget. Our request includes funding to continue 
GAO's shift from owning hardware equipment and assets towards using 
centralized and cloud solutions that provide services to GAO. A 
reduction in investment means that we will continue ``as-is'' and as 
our legacy systems age further, more time will be required to maintain 
them, and the risk for system failure and downtime is increased. As a 
result, this would have a dramatic impact on our ability to provide 
timely service to the Congress.
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    \1\ See GAO, B-331564, Jan. 16, 2020.
    \2\ See GAO, B-330330, Dec. 10, 2018.
    \3\ B-331564.
    \4\ See B-330330, December 10, 2018.
    \5\ See, for example, Public Law No. 116-93, div. C, title VII, 
Sec. 713, 133 Stat. 2317, 2487 (Dec. 20, 2019).
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                         CONCLUSION OF HEARINGS

    The next hearing of the subcommittee will be held on 
Wednesday, March 25, at 3:00 o'clock in Dirksen 124 when we 
will hear testimony from the Architect of the Capitol and the 
Librarian of Congress regarding their fiscal 2021 budget 
request.
    Until then, we stand adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 2:46 p.m., Wednesday, March 11, the hearings 
were concluded, and the subcommittee was recessed, to reconvene 
subject to the call of the Chair.]