[House Hearing, 116 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] OVERSIGHT OF PRUDENTIAL REGULATORS: ENSURING THE SAFETY, SOUNDNESS, DIVERSITY, AND ACCOUNTABILITY OF DEPOSITORY INSTITUTIONS ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ DECEMBER 4, 2019 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services Serial No. 116-70 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] ______ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 42-630 PDF WASHINGTON : 2020 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES MAXINE WATERS, California, Chairwoman CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York PATRICK McHENRY, North Carolina, NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York Ranking Member BRAD SHERMAN, California ANN WAGNER, Missouri GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York PETER T. KING, New York WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma DAVID SCOTT, Georgia BILL POSEY, Florida AL GREEN, Texas BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado STEVE STIVERS, Ohio JIM A. HIMES, Connecticut ANDY BARR, Kentucky BILL FOSTER, Illinois SCOTT TIPTON, Colorado JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas DENNY HECK, Washington FRENCH HILL, Arkansas JUAN VARGAS, California TOM EMMER, Minnesota JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey LEE M. ZELDIN, New York VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia AL LAWSON, Florida ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia MICHAEL SAN NICOLAS, Guam WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan TED BUDD, North Carolina KATIE PORTER, California DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee CINDY AXNE, Iowa TREY HOLLINGSWORTH, Indiana SEAN CASTEN, Illinois ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts JOHN ROSE, Tennessee BEN McADAMS, Utah BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, New York LANCE GOODEN, Texas JENNIFER WEXTON, Virginia DENVER RIGGLEMAN, Virginia STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania JESUS ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota Charla Ouertatani, Staff Director C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on: December 4, 2019............................................. 1 Appendix: December 4, 2019............................................. 65 WITNESSES Wednesday, December 4, 2019 Hood, Hon. Rodney E., Chairman, National Credit Union Administration (NCUA).......................................... 5 McWilliams, Hon Jelena, Chairwoman, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)............................................. 6 Quarles, Hon. Randal K., Vice Chairman of Supervision, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System (Fed).................. 8 APPENDIX Prepared statements: Hood, Hon. Rodney E.......................................... 66 McWilliams, Hon Jelena....................................... 89 Quarles, Hon. Randal K....................................... 113 Additional Material Submitted for the Record Waters, Hon. Maxine: Written statement of the National Association of Federally- Insured Credit Unions...................................... 121 McAdams, Hon. Ben: Written statement of the National Association of Industrial Bankers.................................................... 125 Hood, Hon. Rodney E.: Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Chairwoman Waters.......................................... 127 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Ocasio-Cortez............................... 136 McWilliams, Hon Jelena: Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Chairwoman Waters.......................................... 143 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative McAdams..................................... 183 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Ocasio-Cortez............................... 184 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Hill........................................ 188 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Gonzalez.................................... 190 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Riggleman................................... 194 Quarles, Hon. Randal K.: Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Chairwoman Waters.......................................... 196 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Barr........................................ 211 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Beatty...................................... 213 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Budd........................................ 214 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Foster...................................... 215 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Gonzalez.................................... 218 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Luetkemeyer................................. 222 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative McAdams..................................... 223 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Riggleman................................... 225 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Steil....................................... 227 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Timmons..................................... 228 Written responses to questions for the record submitted by Representative Wagner...................................... 230 OVERSIGHT OF PRUDENTIAL REGULATORS: ENSURING THE SAFETY, SOUNDNESS, DIVERSITY, AND ACCOUNTABILITY OF DEPOSITORY INSTITUTIONS ---------- Wednesday, December 4, 2019 U.S. House of Representatives, Committee on Financial Services, Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m., in room 2141, Rayburn Office Building, Hon. Maxine Waters [chairwoman of the committee] presiding. Members present: Representatives Waters, Maloney, Sherman, Meeks, Clay, Scott, Green, Cleaver, Perlmutter, Himes, Foster, Beatty, Heck, Vargas, Gottheimer, Gonzalez of Texas, Lawson, Tlaib, Porter, Axne, Casten, Pressley, McAdams, Ocasio-Cortez, Wexton, Adams, Garcia of Illinois, Phillips; McHenry, Wagner, Lucas, Posey, Luetkemeyer, Huizenga, Stivers, Barr, Tipton, Williams, Hill, Emmer, Zeldin, Loudermilk, Mooney, Davidson, Budd, Kustoff, Hollingsworth, Gonzalez of Ohio, Rose, Steil, Gooden, Riggleman, and Timmons. Chairwoman Waters. The Financial Services Committee will come to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time. Today's hearing is entitled, ``Oversight of Prudential Regulators: Ensuring the Safety, Soundness, Diversity, and Accountability of Depository Institutions.'' I want to inform all concerned that this hearing will end either at 1:30 p.m., or at the first series of votes on the House Floor. I now recognize myself for 4 minutes to give an opening statement. Today, we are here to conduct oversight of the regulators at the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), the Federal Reserve (Fed), and the National Credit Union Association (NCUA), as well as to receive written testimony from the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC). So, I would like to welcome back Chair McWilliams, Vice Chairman Quarles, and Chairman Hood. I am very concerned that our banking regulators are following the dangerous deregulatory blueprint that the Trump Administration laid out in a series of Treasury reports, and checking off deregulatory items one by one. For example, they have moved to weaken capital stress testing and other requirements for the largest financial institutions; taken action to weaken the Volcker Rule, which prevents banks from gambling with taxpayer dollars; and proposed weakening the swap margin rule, which would threaten our economic stability for a $40 billion giveaway to Wall Street megabanks. In rolling back important reforms put in place in the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act to protect consumers, investors, and the economy, regulators are opening the door to the bad practices that contributed to the devastating financial crisis of 2008. I am also very concerned that regulators are making a brazen attempt to weaken the implementation of the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) under the guise of modernization. CRA is an important law that was passed in 1977 to prevent redlining and to ensure that banks are meeting the credit needs of the communities where they are chartered. While the implementation of the law needs updates to reflect the modern banking landscape, those changes should make the law more effective, not less. Ninety-eight percent of banks already receive a passing grade on their CRA exam, which shows that the law needs more teeth to get positive results for underserved communities. In the wake of the regulators' approval of the SunTrust- BB&T merger, which creates the 6th largest bank in the nation, I would like to make it clear that this committee will continue to closely scrutinize large bank merger proposals. Regulators have a responsibility to ensure that bank mergers serve the public interest and do not create megabanks that threaten our economy and financial system. And it is not acceptable for bank mergers with implications for communities across the country to receive a cursory review or a rubber stamp from bank regulators. This committee has been very focused on diversity and inclusion in the financial services sector, including through the committee's historic new Subcommittee on Diversity and Inclusion. Earlier this year, I, together with Congresswoman Beatty, who Chairs the Subcommittee on Diversity and Inclusion, wrote to the megabanks and requested their diversity and inclusion data and policies. The information we received reinforces what we already know, that these banks badly need to improve their diversity and inclusion. For example, less than 1 percent of megabank spending is devoted to diverse asset managers and suppliers. Since each of the agencies represented by our witnesses today has a dedicated Office of Minority and Women Inclusion (OMWI), I expect to hear today about their diversity and inclusion efforts. I look forward to discussing these matters with our witnesses. I now recognize the ranking member of the committee, the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. McHenry, for 4 minutes. Mr. McHenry. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for holding this hearing today. It is a very important and necessary hearing. It's good for our members to get this interaction with the regulators, and I appreciate all of them being here. And so, I want to thank Chairs Hood and McWilliams and Vice Chair Quarles for appearing before the committee today. And I want to thank each of you for taking the time not just to testify, but for prioritizing the common-sense reforms that are necessitated by the bipartisan law that we commonly refer to as S.2155. The last time you testified before the committee in May, we called on you to take swift action on implementing this bill, and you have largely answered the call. Clarifying the Volcker Rule, and tailoring requirements for foreign banks, are just a few examples of regulatory rightsizing that you have implemented to ensure that our economy, small businesses, and consumers remain vibrant and strong. However, there is more work to be done. There is certainly more work to be done. And what we would like to see from you is for the pace to go up and continue to go up so that we are staying ahead of market conditions and economic conditions. We need to make sure that the tools are there to help serve consumers and communities. I also want to take this opportunity to raise a number of concerns that I continue to have. I am concerned with the trend in the Federal Reserve's open market operations and the wholesale funding markets. I appreciate Chairman Powell's prompt response to my recent questions about the Federal Reserve's repo market operations, and I understand there may be further interventions necessary at the end of the year. The Fed's intervention in the repo market raises the important question of how regulatory changes to our financial system are impacting its structure and function and impacting monetary policy. I think it is very important for the Federal Reserve to have its independent monetary policy standards. I also think it is very important for the global economy, the American economy, and American consumers. But it is necessary for Congress to have oversight of those regulatory changes. And in this circumstance, if bad regulation is driving monetary policy, I think that raises greater concerns about financial stability in the market, and also economic growth. So in addition, the combined impact of proposed capital requirements, including Basel III revisions, and the stress capital buffer could have a significant impact on required capital if not thoughtfully implemented. This may further exacerbate the underlying issues that we are seeing. So, it is important to consider the system of capital requirements as a whole to ensure regulations are appropriately calibrated to allow institutions to continue to support economic growth. In addition, in May, I voiced my concerns with the transition from the London Interbank Offered Rate (LIBOR) to the Secured Overnight Financing Rate (SOFR). Six months later, I am still concerned that consumers will be impacted by this transition. The repo market intervention is just one example of why that is of concern and should be of concern to average, everyday investors. As you know, LIBOR is the underlying bank reference rate for approximately $200 trillion in financial contracts worldwide and is to be phased out as a bank reference rate by 2021, and replaced with SOFR. Given the volatility in the repo markets, I am concerned about the consequences that that volatility will have on mortgages, auto loans, business loans, and other consumer loans as a new reference rate if that is driving overnight financing. Transferring LIBOR-based legacy contracts to SOFR will also require financial institutions to renegotiate with consumers, customers, and expose banks to litigation risk. I hear clearly the tap, tap, tap of the gavel, and with that, I will reserve the rest of my comments for my questions. But thank you for being here, and I appreciate your attendance. Chairwoman Waters. I now recognize the gentleman from New York, Mr. Meeks, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on Consumer Protection and Financial Institutions, for 1 minute. Mr. Meeks. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters. I am glad we have three of the prudential regulators before us today, but I am very disappointed that Mr. Otting, the Comptroller of the Currency, did not make himself available to testify today. One of the issues I have spent the most time on this year, including chairing subcommittee hearings, sending letters, and leading a tour of my district in Queens this past summer, is the modernization of the Community Reinvestment Act. It appears that the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC) has abandoned the joint agency process and will plow forward with its approach to CRA modernization with a simple metric to evaluate bank lending to formerly-redlined communities. This approach is likely to decouple the link between CRA and the very communities it was created to service, and discriminate against whom it was meant to bring redress. I look forward to engaging with the witnesses here today on this and other issues, particularly dealing with non-bank lenders, small-dollar loans, and broker deposits, and I look forward to engaging with the witnesses shortly. I yield back the balance of my time. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. I now recognize the subcommittee's ranking member, Mr. Luetkemeyer from Missouri, for 1 minute. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I would also like to thank the panel for testifying today. I look forward to discussing multiple issues with you regarding our financial system. I would like to begin by reiterating my concern over the Financial Accounting Standards Board's (FASB's) Current Expected Credit Losses (CECL) accounting standard. Time and time again in hearings before this committee, it has been stated that CECL will have a detrimental effect on small financial institutions and, specifically, low- to moderate- income and minority consumers. Despite the numerous testimonies, hearings, statements, and letters highlighting these issues, this committee has remained silent. Not one hearing examining CECL, and no congressional oversight on any accounting standard that will prevent Americans from achieving the American Dream of homeownership. While I will discuss issues with the panel besides CECL, I am hopeful that some of our witnesses who will be charged with enforcing the standard will outline how they plan to protect consumers in the absence of committee action. With that, I yield back the balance of my time. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. I want to welcome today's distinguished panel: the Honorable Rodney Hood, Chairman of the National Credit Union Administration; the Honorable Jelena McWilliams, Chair of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation; and the Honorable Randal Quarles, Vice Chairman of Supervision for the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. I note that the Comptroller of the Currency, Joseph M. Otting, was invited to testify at today's hearing, but was unable to appear. I intend to have him appear as soon as possible before this committee, and he may be a single panel, but it is important, Mr. Meeks, that we hear from him. I understand he has submitted some written testimony, but that does not really substitute for his appearance here today. Each of you will have 5 minutes to summarize your testimony. And without objection, all of your written statements will be made a part of the record. When you have 1 minute remaining, the yellow light will appear. At that time, I would ask you to wrap up your testimony so we can be respectful of both the witnesses' and the committee members' time. Chairman Hood, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to present your oral testimony. STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE RODNEY E. HOOD, CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL CREDIT UNION ADMINISTRATION (NCUA) Mr. Hood. Chairwoman Waters, Ranking Member McHenry, and members of the committee, good morning. As the 11th Chairman of the National Credit Union Administration Board, I am honored to testify before you this morning. In my brief opening statement, I will be discussing 3 topics: first and foremost, the state of America's credit union system; second, NCUA's efforts to foster diversity and inclusion; and third, cybersecurity. First and foremost, I'd like to note that strong growth trends in federally-insured credit unions are continuing in 2019. Roughly 119 members are a part of the credit union system. That represents roughly one-third of the American public. Credit union assets through the third quarter are approximately $1.54 trillion. Credit unions also have a really strong net worth at the moment, an 11.39 percent aggregate net worth, well above the 7 percent statutory requirement. The National Credit Union Insurance Share Fund also remains well- funded at $16.7 billion, and it should be noted that that is a sizable increase from where it was at approximately at $10 billion, 10 years ago. Year-to-date operating results evidence that the credit union system is solid and healthy. I'd now like to focus my attention on discussing NCUA's efforts to foster diversity and inclusion. I firmly believe that financial inclusion is the civil rights issue of our time. However, inclusion means not only broader access to financial services, but also employment and business opportunities. NCUA takes its responsibility seriously in implementing Dodd-Frank Section 342. When I travel around the country, I mention the importance of filling out the diversity survey. I also work with the head of our Office of Minority and Women Inclusion (OMWI), Monica Davy, to ensure that we are reaching out to diverse minority businesses. To that end, I'm pleased to report that NCUA supplier diversity spend is 44.5 percent, to date. In addition, NCUA just hosted its first-ever Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) Summit. This summit took place just a few weeks ago, and it really demonstrated the importance of diversity and inclusion being more than a check-the-box exercise. Rather, our diversity, Equity and Inclusion Summit demonstrated that this should be viewed as a business and strategic imperative if credit unions are going to respond nimbly to shifting demands and demographics and to respond to today's dynamic marketplace. Given the well-attended DEI event, I'm intending now to host the DEI summit across the United States, so we're going to make this a yearly event. And I, to the degree possible, would like to invite you all on the House Financial Services Committee to join us when we host these summits in your areas. Minority depository institutions (MDIs) are the lifeline in providing affordable financial services in communities of color. NCUA provides capacity-building activities to help these institutions reach and serve their mission. Capacity-building activities at NCUA include ongoing education, technical assistance, and our newly-launched mentoring program. I will in turn be hosting an MDI summit in early 2020 so that these institutions can continue to get the necessary support they need to bring affordable financial services to communities of color. I'm very pleased to report that the NCUA board is also supporting diversity and inclusion. We just recently, as a board, developed a short-term ODAR product to provide opportunities for people needing emergency loans. We're calling it the PALs II Program, and it is a responsible alternative loan product for people so that they will no longer need to go to pernicious payday lenders to get their needs met. We also, as an NCUA board, have approved the Second Chance Initiative. The Second Chance Initiative works with individuals who have had nonviolent criminal offenses in the past, and who have paid their debt to society, so now these individuals can work with federally-insured credit unions so they can have greater opportunities for career success, and also have opportunities for upward mobility and access to shared prosperity. The third area I'd like to talk about is cybersecurity. Cybersecurity is a high priority for me as chairman. Cyber attacks are acute, and we are making sure that we leverage our resources to provide credit unions with the support they need to combat these challenges. In closing, I would like to go back to my statement again of financial inclusion being the civil rights issue of our time. Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, I would like to work in partnership with the House Financial Services Committee to look for legislative solutions to help credit unions adopt underserved areas. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Chairman Hood can be found on page 66 of the appendix.] Chairwoman Waters. Chair McWilliams, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to present your oral testimony. STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JELENA MCWILLIAMS, CHAIRWOMAN, FEDERAL DEPOSIT INSURANCE CORPORATION Ms. McWilliams. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters, Ranking Member McHenry, and members of the committee and staff, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. Exactly 18 months ago, I began serving as the 21st Chairman of the FDIC, and I'm happy to celebrate my half-birthday with all of you here today. During this period, the FDIC has undertaken a great amount of work with a particular emphasis on three overarching goals: one, strengthening the banking system as it continues to evolve; two, ensuring that FDIC-insured and supervised institutions can meet the needs of consumers and businesses; and three, fostering technology solutions and encouraging innovation at community banks and the FDIC. The FDIC has made significant progress in each of these areas, and I appreciate the opportunity to share our progress with this committee. Before discussing the FDIC's work to strengthen the banking system, I would like to begin by providing context regarding the current state of the industry. The U.S. banking industry has enjoyed an extended period of positive economic growth. In July, this expansion became the longest on record in the United States. By nearly every metric, the banking industry is strong and well-positioned to continue supporting the U.S. economy. While the state of the banking industry remains strong, the FDIC is continuing to monitor changes in the industry and to work to further strengthen the banking system by modernizing our approach to supervision, including outdated regulations and increasing transparency, enhancing resolution preparedness, assessing new and emerging risks, and creating the workforce of the future. My written statement details the many actions the FDIC has taken in each of these areas. While these efforts are steps towards a stronger banking system, there are certain areas in which the needs of consumers and businesses must be addressed by more comprehensive reforms. We have been working diligently to update our regulations governing broker deposits, which were put in place over 30 years ago. In addition, we're working with our fellow regulators to modernize the Community Reinvestment Act and provide clarity for banks seeking to offer loans that meet consumer small-dollar credit needs. Finally, perhaps no issue is more important or more central to the future of banking than innovation. Technology is transforming the business of banking both in the way consumers interact with their banks and the way banks do business. Regulators cannot play catch-up, but must be proactive in engaging with stakeholders, including banks, consumer groups, trade associations, and technology companies to understand and help foster the safe adoption of technology across the banking system, especially at community banks. Since 1933, the FDIC has played a vital role in maintaining stability and public confidence in the nation's financial system. This mission remains as critical today as it was 86 years ago. But if we are to achieve our mission in a modern financial environment, the agencies cannot be stagnant. Last year, I began a 50-State listening tour to engage with State regulators, FDIC-regulated institutions, consumers, and other stakeholders. At the outset of that effort, I emphasized the need to reverse the trend of having those affected by our regulations come to Washington to have their voices heard, but instead to meet them on their home turf. With 26 State visits, I'm now more than halfway through the listening tour, which has been incredibly informative and has underscored the importance of seeking perspectives outside of the Washington beltway. I look forward to visiting the remaining States and learning more about the issues that matter most to consumers and communities across the nation, including your constituents. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I look forward to your questions. [The prepared statement of Chairwoman McWilliams can be found on page 89 of the appendix.] Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. Vice Chairman Quarles, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to present your oral testimony. STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE RANDAL K. QUARLES, VICE CHAIRMAN OF SUPERVISION, BOARD OF GOVERNORS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM (FED) Mr. Quarles. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters, Ranking Member McHenry, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear today. My colleagues and I join you on the cusp of a significant and shared milestone: the full and faithful implementation of Congress' effort to improve financial regulation in the form of the Economic Growth, Regulatory Relief, and Consumer Protection Act. Today, I'll briefly review the steps we've taken toward this milestone, share information on the state of the banking system, and discuss the continuing need to ensure our regulatory framework is both coherent and effective. The Act was an effort to consolidate a decade of work on financial reform and a targeted response to the conditions facing today's banking organizations and their customers. It was also rooted, however, in a longstanding constitutional practice of reviewing the work done in the immediate aftermath of a crisis, of addressing any gaps, and of ensuring that public and private resources go toward their best and most efficient use. The Board's latest supervision and regulation report, delivered in connection with my testimony today, confirms that we have a stable, healthy, and resilient banking sector with robust capital and liquidity positions, stable loan performance and strong loan growth, steady improvements in safety and soundness, and several areas of continued supervisory focus, including operational resiliency and cyber-related risk. The banking system is substantially better prepared to manage unexpected shocks today than it was before the financial crisis. And now, when the waters are relatively calm, is the right time to examine the efficiency and effectiveness of our protection against future storms. With last year's reform legislation, Congress made a significant down payment on that task, and in less than 18 months after the Act's passage, we have implemented all of its major provisions. Earlier this year, we completed the cornerstone of the legislation, tailoring our rules for regional banks and building on our existing work that firms with greater risks should meet higher standards and receive more scrutiny. We previously relied heavily on a firm's total assets as a proxy for these risks and for the cost that the financial system would incur if a firm failed, and that simple asset proxy was clear and critical. It was rough and ready, but it was neither risk-sensitive nor complete. Our new rules employ a broader set of indicators to assess the need for greater supervisory scrutiny and maintain the most stringent requirements and strictest oversight for the largest and most complex firms. We and our interagency colleagues have also worked on a range of measures addressed to smaller banks, with particular attention to the community bank business model. And our goal through this intense period of regulatory activity has been to faithfully implement Congress' instructions. Those instructions also speak to a broader need, and one central to our ongoing work, which is to ensure that our regulatory regime is not only simple, efficient, and transparent, but also coherent and effective. Financial regulation, like any area of policy, is a product of history. Each component dates from a particular time and place, and it was designed, debated, and enacted to address a particular set of needs. No rule can be truly evergreen. Gaps in areas for improvement will always reveal themselves over time. Our responsibility is to address those gaps without creating new ones, to understand fully the interaction among regulations, to reduce complexity where possible, and to ensure our entire rulebook supports the safety, stability, and strength of the financial system. My colleagues and I are paying particular attention to coherence in our capital regime and in the full set of post- crisis reforms, to a smooth transition away from LIBOR and other legacy benchmark rates, to sensible treatment of new financial products and technologies, and to clear, consistent supervisory communication which reflects and reinforces our regulations and laws. My written testimony and the accompanying supervision and regulation report cover each of these areas in greater detail. And, again, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss them with you today. Thank you, and I look forward to answering your questions. [The prepared statement of Vice Chairman Quarles can be found on page 113 of the appendix.] Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes for questions. Earlier this year, my colleague, Representative Meeks, held a subcommittee hearing focused on the Community Reinvestment Act. We heard expert testimony demonstrating that more than 40 years after the passage of the CRA, 98 percent of banks consistently pass their CRA exams, while at the same time we have redlining in more than 60 metro areas across the country. There is something out of sync. Instead of working together to make CRA exams more stringent and taking steps to ensure banks fairly serve all communities, we have at least the OCC, if not also the FDIC, in a rush to get a rulemaking out this year in a brazen attempt to weaken the CRA with or without the Federal Reserve. As we have seen in the growing list of deregulatory actions in recent months by these agencies, I am concerned that this new CRA proposal will simply make life easier for banks that have been making record profits. So, Chair McWilliams, Comptroller Otting at the OCC, who unfortunately was unable to testify today in person, seems to be in a rush to get a proposed regulation out the door this year, and it appears the Federal Reserve does not agree with this proposal. Instead of signing onto the OCC's plan, would it not be helpful to encourage Mr. Otting to take more time to work with the Federal Reserve and see if there is a mutually- agreeable path forward? If we have two different CRA regulations, will that not lead to regulatory arbitrage and inconsistent application of the law? This was in his testimony. He said, ``The OCC is working with our colleagues at the FDIC to issue it jointly. A joint rule with the FDIC would cover all national banks and State banks that are not members of the Federal Reserve System and Federal/State savings associations.'' So, you are here today to speak for yourself? Is that what you are doing? Ms. McWilliams. Yes, we are engaged in interagency negotiations on how to best modernize and improve the CRA. Chairwoman Waters. Are you working with Mr. Otting and the OCC to issue a joint proposal? Ms. McWilliams. We have been working with both the Federal Reserve and the OCC on-- Chairwoman Waters. The Federal Reserve does not agree with you. How do you plan on resolving that? Ms. McWilliams. I don't know how to resolve the Federal Reserve not agreeing with us. It wouldn't be the first time that the Federal Reserve and the FDIC have a difference of opinion on a particular matter, but I do know that there is an opportunity--since 1995, this Act has not been revised, and there is an opportunity to do more for minority depository institutions. There is an opportunity to do more-- Chairwoman Waters. That opportunity to do more for minority institutions, how does that work? Ms. McWilliams. That is a great question, and thank you for that. Right now, the non-minority depository institutions can qualify for CRA credit if they engage with a minority depository institution. Right now, the definition of how that partnership can be structured is more narrowly interpreted for the purposes of the CRA, and I believe there is an opportunity for us to expand what qualifies and what types of investments in community development activities with MDIs would qualify for CRA credit. There is also more to be done on small farms. There is a whole lot more we can do on CRA for small businesses, for Indian Country, and a number of different entities that, frankly, the CRA could be doing more for. Chairwoman Waters. Do you think it is important to work with this committee on such a huge change dealing with the CRA that is extremely important to so many communities? It seems as if you and Mr. Otting have just made a decision, despite the Federal Reserve and without any interaction with the committee. Why do you want to work in that way without trying to get in tune with all of the entities that are involved with trying to make a decision of this magnitude? Ms. McWilliams. Chairwoman Waters, I have nothing but the utmost respect for this committee, and I look forward to working with you on any issues that are important to your constituencies. And as a former congressional staffer, I certainly would pay a lot of deference to your opinions and input on matters that are important. Chairwoman Waters. You have not demonstrated that to date. I appreciate your indicating that here at this hearing today. We are very concerned about this, and we are not accepting of any proposal that is being put together by you and Mr. Otting that undermines the original mission of the CRA. With that, I will-- Ms. McWilliams. If I may just add something? Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentleman from North Carolina, the ranking member, Mr. McHenry, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. McHenry. So to that extent, Chair McWilliams, safety and soundness is a primary obligation you have--economic growth, safety, and soundness. When you are inhibiting economic growth through old regulations on the books, that is bad, right? But when you are also impacting financial stability by not reviewing regulations, that is even worse, and I think that is malpractice. So I would encourage you to review these old regulations and take reasonable steps to ensure that we have financial stability on a going-forward basis. Vice Chair Quarles, in September, there was tremendous volatility in the repo market. This is overnight lending. It is a very technical aspect for most Americans, but it is of concern to us as policymakers. Rates moved well beyond the Fed's targeted rate, which prompted the Fed to intervene in a pretty significant way, and for a significant amount of time pledged going forward. So given that, if you could comment on what policies might have contributed to the shortage of cash in the repo market? Mr. Quarles. Thank you. As you have noted, there was a complex set of factors that contributed to those events in September. Not all of them were related to our regulatory framework. But I do think that as we have considered what were the driving factors in the disruptions in the repo market in September, we have identified some areas where our existing supervision of their regulatory framework, less the calibration or structure of the framework itself, may have created some incentives that were contributors. They were probably not the decisive contributors, but they were contributors, and I think we need to examine them. Particularly among them are the internal liquidity stress tests that we run that create a preference or can create a preference at some institutions for central bank reserves over other liquid assets, including Treasury securities for the satisfaction of their liquidity requirements under the liquidity framework that is put in post-crisis. Mr. McHenry. That would be considered an unintended consequence of regulation rather than an intended consequence, would it not? Mr. Quarles. The regulation was intended to be structured so that banks would be indifferent between central bank reserves and other forms of liquid assets, particularly Treasury securities, in satisfying their high-quality liquid asset retention requirements, and the liquidity coverage ratio itself does not make any distinction. Mr. McHenry. But in practice, it appears that there is a distinction. Mr. Quarles. Some banks, from their internal assessment of how their liquid assets will perform in a future period of stress, have put a heavy emphasis on central bank reserves as the most liquid assets. Treasury securities take a day to settle. Markets can be disrupted in the event of extreme unexpected events, so that does create a thumb on the scale for central bank reserves. So I think that it is worth reviewing, and we are reviewing some of these supervisory measures to see how they contribute. Mr. McHenry. I would encourage you to review the regulatory and supervisory issues, and I think it is important for Congress to also hear back on that review. We understand the independence of monetary policy, but where regulatory policy is impairing or impacting monetary policy, I think we need to make sure that we are doing the right thing with these regulations. Mr. Quarles. I completely agree. Mr. McHenry. I want to pivot as briefly as we can to the conversion from LIBOR to SOFR, and this change--the repo market issues in September highlight the deficiencies of this new SOFR standard. You commented publicly, Mr. Quarles, on some challenges related to that, and I think it would be important for Congress to hear back on the financial stability challenges, and the intention of the Federal Reserve to ensure that this new rate doesn't cause greater stress on the financial system or unnecessarily create financial instability. And so I would encourage that undertaking by the Fed, but I know it also impacts the FDIC and the NCUA as well. So with that, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from California, Mr. Sherman, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Sherman. Shortly after you all testified in May, Daniel Tarullo, the Federal Reserve Governor who spent 8 years following the crisis, rewriting the Wall Street rulebook, denounced what he reviewed as the Trump era's low-intensity deregulation of the financial services industry. He described it as, ``a large number of small tweaks to existing regulations that individually gather little notice by the press, but taken together will undermine the regulatory framework designed to prevent another crisis.'' He said that somewhere down the line, someone else will suffer the damage, and in all likelihood, it will be the most vulnerable households and businesses. Vice Chair Quarles, how do you respond to former Governor Tarullo's comments? Do you have a concern that easing the Volcker Rule, and dialing back on swap margin requirements, and reducing the leverage ratio for megabanks will not push the system a little closer to a crisis? Mr. Quarles. As we have looked at the recalibration of some of the post-crisis reform rulebook in order to ensure that we are not creating sort of perverse regulatory incentives and avoiding unintended consequences--it would be very surprising if there weren't some of those in such a complex body of post- crisis regulation--one of our principles has been to ensure that we do not reduce in any material way the loss-absorbing cushion of the institutions. And I think we have succeeded in doing that. Statements like that, that there is a low intensity deregulation, I think, have to be held to empirical account. And we have maintained the quantitative resiliency of the industry, and the changes that we have made, I think, actually improve the safety and soundness of the industry because they eliminate perverse regulatory-- Mr. Sherman. Obviously your predecessor, the Federal Reserve Governor, disagrees, but I want to go on. Resolution plans have been a valuable tool for improving resolvability through bankruptcy. Living wills have helped large banks be better organized, but now the FDIC seems to be dialing back those requirements. Why should megabanks, like Wells Fargo, only have to update their complete living wills in only 4 years? Ms. McWilliams. Thank you for that question, Congressman. The living will process has evolved since its inception in the enactment of Title II of Dodd-Frank. For a couple of cycles, we have received submissions that have been in the tens of thousands of pages, and we now have enough information where we can hone in and zoom in on the things that we actually think are more essential to resolving a bank and better our understanding of how that bank would be resolved. Frankly, what we are trying to avoid is having these banks just update the 20,000-page submissions every few years and not really look at some of the essential issues that are underlying. So I have asked staff to identify the critical areas that we need to do a deeper dive on, and to focus on those areas in particular. Mr. Sherman. I would think that things change over years, and you might want to require updating more currently. The criteria for individuals seeking employment in the banking and financial services industry with minor criminal offenses are under review. First, Mr. Hood, what are you doing, and what could Congress do? Mr. Hood. Yes, sir. Thank you for that question. We, at NCUA, recently put forth a final rule regarding the Second Chance Act where we recognize that individuals who have committed nonviolent criminal offenses, who have paid their debt to society, should have opportunities to work in federally-insured credit unions. We look forward, sir, to partnering with you to see if opportunities exist to remove barriers. Mr. Sherman. Ms. McWilliams? Ms. McWilliams. I believe that the policy you are discussing--we are calling it our Section 19 policy at the FDIC--is an important social justice issue. And we are currently undertaking an effort to both publicly seek comments on what more the Agency can do. We have made some revisions, but I personally believe we can go a long way in enabling these individuals to reenter the workforce, and also allowing more prosperity in the economy by allowing them the opportunity to have a job. Mr. Sherman. I will ask you to focus on that, and I yield back. Ms. McWilliams. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters The gentlewoman from Missouri, Mrs. Wagner, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mrs. Wagner. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Vice Chairman Quarles, thank you for joining us today--and I thank all of you for joining us today--in September of 2019, you delivered a speech in which you reiterated the Fed's plans to finalize the stress capital buffer proposal in time for the 2020 Comprehensive Capital Analysis and Review, or CCAR, which means the rule would need to be proposed in the very, very near term. The goal of the stress capital buffer is to provide clarity and harmonization to the overall capital framework for financial institutions that are subject to stress tests. Vice Chairman Quarles, is it still the Federal Reserve Board's intention to have the stress capital buffer finalized in time for the 2020 CCAR? Mr. Quarles. We are still aiming to have that done in time for this stress testing cycle. You are absolutely right. That time is short. Mrs. Wagner. Given a re-proposal would need at least a 60- day comment period, and the CCAR instructions are typically issued in January, it seems like it would be very difficult to have that finalized. This proposal was originally released in April of 2018, so what is the reason for the significant delay in moving forward? Mr. Quarles. The proposal raises a number of complex issues. I think the most significant one is one that I have talked about publicly, and which is part of the answer to a previous question, which is that we do want to maintain the quantitative aggregate level of loss absorbency in the system to be the same, notwithstanding some of the incentive changes, some of the, I think, unwarranted assumptions and practices in the current stress testing regime. And calibrating and creating the methodology for keeping that aggregate capital level the same while addressing these incentives has proved to be complex. You are absolutely right that the time is short, but it is not impossible for us to get this done. Mrs. Wagner. When we can we expect a re-proposal of the stress capital buffer? Mr. Quarles. We have not decided yet whether we would re- propose or proceed in a different administrative procedure fashion. Mrs. Wagner. I have asked you this question before along with many of my colleagues, but given that the stress capital buffer will preserve the global systemically important bank's (G-SIB's) surcharge, when does the board plan to update the rule as it explicitly said it would in 2015? Mr. Quarles. We are always looking at all of the elements of the current regulatory framework to determine when a particular calibration might be out of whack. We regularly look at the calibration of the G--SIB surcharge, and we are considering it in the context of the overall body of regulation. In particular, as you know, there is the remainder of the international Basel III agreement, the so-called Basel III end game, or the banks sometimes call it Basel IV, that remains to be implemented. I think that we should look at all of this as a package. The implementation of that remainder of Basel III could have the effect of significantly raising the aggregate level of capital in the industry. As both I and Chairman Powell have said, we think that that aggregate level of loss absorbency should remain, and essentially is pretty much proper where it is. And so as we consider that implementation, I think we also then need to consider the overall calibration of-- Mrs. Wagner. You told us, Vice Chairman--and pardon me for interrupting--but it explicitly said that in 2015, you were going to update the rule. When can we expect this? Given the many post-crisis reforms that have been implemented, is now not the logical time to recalibrate the surcharge to reflect economic growth and reforms? Mr. Quarles. I think we should not be considering these issues piecemeal. That is one of the reasons why we are where we are, in my view. We have the opportunity, and, I think, the responsibility to look at the remaining implementation of this Basel III endgame as a package, and we would look at that as a package with the calibration of other existing elements of the regulatory framework, which would include the G-SIB surcharge. But we should look at that as a package, and that is a project that we are actively underway on. Mrs. Wagner. Well, I truly hope that you move expeditiously. The CCAR is up in January of 2020. You have been talking about this for years. Package or piecemeal, we need these rules updated. I thank you, and I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from New York, Mr. Meeks, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on Consumer Protection and Financial Institutions, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Meeks. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Ms. McWilliams, I want to pick up briefly where the chairwoman left off, because I am very concerned about recent reports, and I want to find out and be clear, has the FDIC signed on to the OCC-led CRA process and not doing it in an interagency process? Have you signed onto that? Ms. McWilliams. The FDIC board meets to vote on any proposals before it, and that meeting has not taken place. So if you ask, have we formally signed on, the board has not voted on this yet, but we are-- Mr. Meeks. But it is likely that you will do that? Ms. McWilliams. It is likely that we will present an opportunity for the board to vote on the improvements to the CRA. Mr. Meeks. Just based on the OCC, without the interagency process? So, that means that you agree with, which I don't understand, the OCC's single ratio approach as the right way to go with regards to CRA, even though that risk-breaking and direct link between bank lending and the specific communities that the CRA was intended to benefit? Have you all gone down that path already? Ms. McWilliams. No, that is incorrect. There is no single- ratio, single-metric approach. I am not sure where that information was derived from. The draft that I have seen, that we have been working with, does not include a single metric. Mr. Meeks. Well, some of this has come from my conversations with the OCC. Ms. McWilliams. I would have to defer to the OCC on those conversations. Mr. Meeks. But if you are joining on to them, then, therefore, I just want to make sure that you are engaged more. And that is why the interagency process is tremendously important so that it is more than just one idea, multiple ideas, on how we can make sure that are we moving forward with the modernization of CRA so that we are not leaving out the original intent of the CRA that was put forward. So I just would urge the FDIC to re-look at how you are doing this to make sure that you are working with the Fed also so that as we come to a modernized CRA, we make sure that we are not undoing the reason why the CRA was initially implemented. Let me move on, because I want to ask you another question, Ms. McWilliams, on brokered deposits. As you may know, I am working on legislation now to address what I consider antiquated rules which fail to account for the 30 years of technology innovation and new organizational structures that we can reasonably agree pose no systemic risk to the banking sector. Which elements do you expect the FDIC to address in its rulemaking, and which ones do you believe Congress needs to address through legislative action? Ms. McWilliams. Thank you for that question. If I may just for a second go back to the CRA, I would not sign onto a proposal that in any way undermines the original intent of the law. And the proposal that I could sign onto is a proposal that would actually yield more benefits for the communities that it was intended to protect. So you have my assurance that I would not sign onto anything that does not profess to do so. On the brokered deposits, like you, I agree that it is an antiquated law. We have not touched the FDIC brokered deposits in about 30 years. I believe there are some things that Congress could do as we are undertaking a review of the existing regulations and the practices in the marketplace and now technology has changed the way consumers do banking, and banks do banking, frankly. I think there is an opportunity for us to work together on improvements. We will try to do what we can on the regulatory side, and to the extent that I have any recommendations to Congress, I would like to take you up on your offer and give you those as well. Thank you. Mr. Meeks. Thank you for that. Mr. Quarles, let me ask you quickly, the Fed published information that over half of the supervisory findings issued in the past 5 years were related to governance and risk management control issues. In 2017, I submitted a letter in response to the Fed's request for comments on its proposed guidance of supervisory expectation of board directors advocating for the importance of picking diverse nominees when picking board directors. Now, when I looked at the Fed's guidance, it speaks of diverse experience, but it says nothing about diversity of board members themselves. So to my question to you is, what are you going to do to deal with the urgent issue of making sure that there is diversity in the board members themselves? Mr. Quarles. I think that is the intention of referring to diversity of experience, that as a board and as the corporation, as the firm considers the composition of its board, it will look to all the attributes of the board members to ensure that they have that relevant diversity. That is the purpose of that guidance. Mr. Meeks. But it just seems to me that the language is clear. It says, ``diverse experiences,'' not talking about the diversity of the board members themselves. So someone could come in and say, well, I have that experience because I worked in it, but they are not diverse individuals. My concern is to make sure that we have diverse individuals on those boards. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Lucas. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. First, I would like to thank all of you for your leadership in promoting transparency and efficiency in supervising and recognizing our financial institutions. This panel has implemented the major provisions in the Economic Growth, Regulatory Relief, and Consumer Protection Act, and I believe the resiliency of our financial system is now greater than ever before. Vice Chair Quarles, Chair McWilliams, we have discussed at length on various occasions, inter-affiliate margin requirements, and I am pleased to see your agencies have recently proposed to amend these swap margin requirements. Thank you. The recent rule to exempt inter-affiliate swaps from initial margin requirements is an important step forward in identifying which areas can be simplified, harmonized, and streamlined to eliminate inconsistencies and overlap. And I look forward to continuing our discussion as you develop a final rule that will harmonize the treatment of margin requirements. We have also discussed the commercial end user concern with CCAR. Again, I am pleased to see your agencies revise the rule to amend the capital requirements for derivative contracts with commercial end users. You all know the nature of my district. It is capital- intensive. It is agriculture. It is energy. So, the actions of the Federal Reserve and the FDIC have a tremendous impact back home on my constituents. Now, in light of the CCAR rule, what are the Agencies' plans for moving forward with the implementation of Basel III? How do the Federal Reserve and the FDIC plan to analyze the impact of those revisions across the U.S. framework to ensure coherence and capital neutrality? Mr. Quarles. I will start with that one. As I indicated, I do think that there are a few principles that we will need to keep in mind as we consider the implementation of the remainder of Basel III. And those principles are that we will maintain the current level of loss absorbency with the industry. We don't believe that the aggregate level of loss absorbency needs to be increased or that it needs to be decreased, and in order to do that, we should look at this implementation as a package. We should consider how the remaining elements work together, and how they will work together with the already-enacted elements. And while I think that each of them is a useful addition to the overall regulatory framework because of the incentives that they will create for particular actions, we also need to ensure that they are maintaining capital level. I should say that they are essentially capital neutral. I think that we will be able to do that by looking at everything as a whole rather than implementing them piecemeal. Ms. McWilliams. If I may add, I do think that with the efforts of Basel, we need to take a holistic and comprehensive look at everything and not address the rulemakings piecemeal, and I agree with Vice Chairman Quarles on that. I also think that the Basel Committee can do a little bit more on analyzing the impact of these rules. There are so-called quantitative impact studies (QISs), that the Basel Committee can do, and something that the U.S. delegation at the Basel Committee has been insisting on for some time. I can tell you this. When the Basel III rules were promulgated on capital and liquidity, the initial rules, the Basel Committee did do a QIS study, and that study, if I recall correctly--the numbers may evade me, the correct numbers--but it was done based on the balance sheets of banks on December 31, 2009, which was one of the worst times for their balance sheets. And it took into account about 220 financial institutions around the world, only 14 of which were U.S. banks. If I were in this position where I do have representation on the Basel Committee and the working groups, I would have insisted on a more specific impact at home here in the United States and analysis done by the regulatory agencies on how these rules will impact our banks and not look at 14 out of 228 banks on one of the worst days for their balance sheets in their history. Mr. Lucas. In a previous hearing, I raised an issue with Chairman Powell that we have been watching here in the committee for quite some time, and that is the implementation of the Volcker Rule, and I laud the panel for taking on the task of trying to improve the Rule. I suspect my colleagues will raise this issue as well. Chairman Powell indicated at that time that he does not consider long-term investments to be an activity that causes safety and soundness concerns. Vice Chair Quarles, you know I have a tendency to ask things that are semi-reasonable and rational. So with that-- [laughter] Yes, that is actually true. Can you commit to us that you will take into consideration how important it is for banks to make these long-term investments while you are working to finalize this portion of the Rule? Mr. Quarles. We will definitely take that into consideration. Mr. Lucas. See, it was reasonable. I yield back. [laughter] Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Clay, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on Housing, Community Development, and Insurance, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Clay. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Last month, the FDIC and the OCC issued a proposed rulemaking to clarify that when a loan is nonusurious when originated by a bank, it remains nonusurious if the loan is sold or signed or otherwise transferred to a non-bank. In 2015, the Second Circuit held in Madden v. Midland Funding that non-bank debt collectors that had purchased debt originated by a national bank could not benefit from the bank's exportation power. The OCC stated that the proposal was intended to address confusion resulting from the Madden decision. Consumer groups and legal experts have raised serious concerns that the proposal will encourage predatory rent-a-bank schemes that are designed to evade State usury caps. Chairman McWilliams, what is the FDIC's intentions with this proposed regulation? Is it intended in any way to administratively override the Second Circuit decision in the Madden case? Ms. McWilliams. In fact, it is meant to clarify the confusion that has been caused by the Madden decision. Since 1828, there has been Supreme Court precedent that if a loan is not usurious at the time when the loan is made, nothing subsequently makes that loan usurious. And in 1865, Congress, this body, gave national banks the ability to adopt those principles. In 1980, Congress gave the FDIC the ability to approve the same principles for State-chartered banks, and everything was going fine, frankly. We have had an existing guidance in place for over 20 years on this issue until the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in Madden decided to just ignore the longstanding procedural and case precedent and regulatory precedent in this area. And we would not have had had to act at all, frankly, if it were not for the decision in Madden. Once the decision in Madden was made, we felt there was a necessity to re-uphold the longstanding principles we have had, and to reissue our statement that has been in existence for over 20 years. Mr. Clay. Okay. So would your proposed regulation effectively rent out these banks' charters to third parties, hoping to evade State usury limits? Ms. McWilliams. No. In fact, at the FDIC, and we have stated this explicitly as well as implicitly, we look unfavorably upon such arrangements, and in the cases where there are such arrangements, we will take supervisory action that is appropriate, if any State or Federal laws are being violated. Mr. Clay. So you will supervise the third party then, and make sure that there is not an overcharging or-- Ms. McWilliams. We have a couple of different statutory authorities that allow us to supervise third parties that do business with banks or end up affiliating with banks in any form. Mr. Clay. I see. In November of 2019, the FDIC issued a proposal seeking public comment to codify a statement of policy related to Section 19 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act, which provides criteria for individuals seeking employment in the banking industry with certain minor criminal offenses. In addition, the NCUA board approved a final interpretive ruling and policy statement allowing people convicted of certain minor offenses to return to work in the credit union industry without applying for the board's approval. Chairman Hood and Chairman McWilliams, what steps can Congress take to give ex-offenders who have minor offenses a second chance, to be able to get a job in the credit union industry? Mr. Hood, first? Mr. Hood. First and foremost, this is an issue that I have taken quite seriously since I became Chairman of the NCUA board. I think it is possible for us to sit down and perhaps discuss what happened--I'm sorry, I am fighting a cold. Mr. Clay. I am too, but go ahead. Mr. Hood. I would love to sit down with your staff and maybe have some of our colleagues to discuss what have been some of the barriers that continue to prevent these individuals from seeking able employment. But we, as a board, are doing our level best to at least create opportunities now for these individuals who have paid their debt to society to get meaningful employment so they can get access to financial inclusion and have upward mobility. But we do look forward to following up with you and your staff. Mr. Clay. I look forward to that conversation. Ms. McWilliams, quickly? Ms. McWilliams. Oh, sure, and I will be very quick. Thank you. As I mentioned, from my personal perspective it is a social justice issue that we need to be focused on. I have heard from civil rights groups, from community groups and community activists, and we are soliciting comments on what more we can do. And should we have any recommendations for Congress, I would be more than happy to engage with you. Mr. Clay. Thank you. My time is up. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Luetkemeyer, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. CECL is something the Fed will have to enforce, as you all know, and you and I have spoken with other members as well about this, what I regard as a terrible accounting standard. However, you have remained on the sidelines as FASB has promulgated and eventually implemented this standard. This morning, you have talked a number of times about different new capital rules and how you are going to be implementing them, and looking at them. You made the statement a number of times, I believe, that the average capital that is in the system today, as well as reserves, is at an adequate level. Now when you implement CECL, there are going to have to be some additional reserves for most banks to be put in place. How do you do the Fed's two-step on trying to make sure that you continue to enhance the ability to be able to increase capital yet not over-reserve, as you indicate this may happen? Mr. Quarles. The effect that you describe is one that we are very sensitive towards. There have been a lot of ex ante assessments of the potential size of that effect. That is the reason why the bank regulatory agencies together have said that we would essentially phase in the effect of CECL. So when CECL becomes effective--and it is now effective at different times for different banks--as an accounting standard, we will phase it in, over the course of 3 years, what the effect of that is in the capital regime for the banks. And if we see that there is a large increase in the reserve position of the banks, that is one of the reasons why I have been emphasizing that we think that the total amount of loss absorbency in the system is about right. I think, then, as part of this overall assessment of the implementation of the remainder of Basel III, of the implementation of CECL, of looking at the effect of the existing framework, in order to ensure that we keep the existing high level of loss absorbency without either lowering it or increasing it, there will be recalibrations of a number of things that may be appropriate and we will look at that as it evolves. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Thank you for that answer. I am sure I agree with all that, but we will move on. Ms. McWilliams, one of the top two issues of CECL and data aggregators is data privacy. When I talk to banks and credit unions, this is their number one and two issues. Data aggregators is something we had a hearing on a couple of weeks ago, and there was a big article in one of the political rags just yesterday or the day before with regards to the hearing that we had. And the concerns that are there with regards to these data aggregators coming in, screen scraping--I have had discussions with one bank, and in fact, it has been verified by a couple of other banks I have talked to since then, that basically 80 percent of the transactions and searches that are done on their computers at night are done by these debt aggregators, screen scraping. And they have actually had to increase the amount of computer power to allow their own customers to access their own accounts, as well as these data aggregators. Do you see the risk in this, because there have been some huge losses in this already? What do you think you need to do, as a regulator? Or is the industry going to take care of this? Is technology going to take care of this? Where do you think this is going? Does this concern you? Ms. McWilliams. It does concern me and, frankly, it concerns me both from a regulatory perspective but also from a private citizen perspective. And having grown up in a system that did not have and afford privacy protections for its citizenry, I am concerned whenever anyone's privacy could be invaded, even inadvertently. From a regulatory perspective, there are a number of different privacy laws that we can implement. A lot of those privacy protection laws have been shifted to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) by Title X of Dodd-Frank. In fact, 17 consumer protection statutes were sent over to the CFPB. We have some ability to implement and protect consumers in this space, but a lot of that ability now rests with the CFPB and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). Mr. Luetkemeyer. Chairman Hood, do you have any concerns with that at all? Mr. Hood. Oh, I share those same concerns as Ms. McWilliams. These are efforts that we all need to work together on. We certainly work with the CFPB in addressing these issues. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Okay. I see my time is about up here. Just maybe a shake of your head would work here. But another issue has come up to me with regards to the credit unions buying out banks, and that is something that is on the radar in both groups, and I am fearful of a war beginning to break out. Are you at all concerned? Mr. Hood and Ms. McWilliams, are you concerned at all? Mr. Hood. Sir, these are voluntary, market-based transactions. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Ms. McWilliams? Ms. McWilliams. About 28 banks have been acquired by credit unions since 2011. There are additional mergers pending. Yes, we are looking at this. The two entities are just not set up in the same way, and Congress did it in a particular reason-- Mr. Luetkemeyer. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Scott, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Scott. Thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman. This is an important hearing, but we have a hole right in the middle of it, and that is because Mr. Otting is not here, for whatever reason. But let me just tell you why. We are dealing with this burgeoning industry of fintechs. There is a crying need for us to understand, and I hope, Madam Chairwoman, that we will get Mr. Otting here. Now, let me tell you why this is a missing hole. As you know, Chairwoman Waters, the OCC has announced this special order for non-bank fintech companies. However, that order has been opposed by State regulators, and also failed to generate any interest from the fintech industry itself. And that has been likely due to a lot of concerns, and I want to get all of your responses on what these concerns are, as much as you can. There are some real concerns, and Mr. Otting not being here creates a hole in our discussion. Some fintech companies are disappointed in the OCC charter because of its limited purpose nature. It does not allow fintech companies to hold deposits or secure FDIC insurance for deposits. Then, we have legal concerns. The OCC has been engaged in a lawsuit with the New York Department of Financial Services regarding the charter. And in October, the Federal judge sided with New York, against the OCC, and said that the OCC does not even have the authority to issue a charter for non-bank entities in fintech that cannot secure FDIC insurance. Do you see why this is so important? And the OCC says it will appeal. Mr. Otting should be here to give us some answers to this, to speak to this. I think it is also important, Madam Chairwoman, to find out why he isn't here. Everything that I am saying, he knows. We can't move forward. This is why there is a crying need for the bill we are working on with Ms. Waters, Mr. Lynch, I think Mr. Hill, as we are dealing with the need for you all to harmonize. And here is the main actor not even here at this meeting. Now I want you, Ms. McWilliams, to respond to some of these concerns. Are you aware that the New York FLSA said that the OCC doesn't even have the authority? Are you aware of the legal ramifications here? Can you imagine if you were a fintech and you have a charter, and there is no harmonization between you, between the Fed, between the CFPB, between the CFTC? We have seen all of these regulators here, biting at the bit to pounce on these fintechs, and regulate them, and the chief regulator, who has put forward an order that has been declared unconstitutional, isn't even here. Ms. McWilliams. Thank you for the question on fintechs. I can't speak to OCC's intention or actions but I can tell you this. At the FDIC we are very focused on making sure that there is both harmonization of the rules and a comprehensive look at our regulatory framework. Fintechs are something that is happening. Financial technology innovation is not new. But the ability of these companies to actually both do business and evolve with technology, and their agility, is something that is very new. So at the FDIC we are looking at this. We are creating an office of innovation to deal exactly with these issues. And I can tell you also that any entity that seeks to collect deposits has to go through our application process for deposit insurance, and no matter what the entity's structure is, they will be subject to the same statutory requirements. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Huizinga, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Huizenga. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I am going to quickly move through a number of things. Chairman Hood, I understand that credit unions purchasing banks--traditional banks, I believe, was the phrase was that you used--is a private-market transaction. I fully understand that. The question is, do you see any problems with that? Mr. Hood. Well, sir, these are transactions, again, that are voluntary. Mr. Huizenga. I understand that. Is there a problem with those transactions? Mr. Hood. These are transactions that must be approved by both the FDIC and-- Mr. Huizenga. So, you see no problem with them. Okay. That is fine if that is your answer. That is fine. Chair McWilliams, if you could elaborate a little bit on that? Ms. McWilliams. I do believe that--and we have data to support this--there is a great consolidation in the community banking sector, and frankly, I am concerned about the communities that are losing banking presence. We have over 120 counties that have a single banking presence in their county, and we have-- Mr. Huizenga. I understand. Ms. McWilliams. --30 counties. So with respect to the credit unions and community banks, Congress set up credit unions in a certain way. They are not subject to taxation and they also don't have CRA requirements imposed on them. Mr. Huizenga. So I think you are getting to that there might be a problem? Ms. McWilliams. I am getting to that the playing field may not be exactly level. Mr. Huizenga. Okay. Fair enough. Chair McWilliams, I want to talk a little bit about industrial loan companies (ILCs). The critics of ILCs claim that banks owned by non-financial companies are unsafe because these parent companies might conduct unsafe transactions with the subsidiary bank. Can you describe the existing statutory and regulatory framework that prevents such transactions? Ms. McWilliams. Congress gave us the ability to approve ILC applications based on the same statutory requirements that we approve the deposit insurance applications for banks. So if a bank or an ILC applies for deposit insurance, they have a set of about five or six different statutory requirements which we have interpreted through our regulations over time. We certainly look to the parent. We want to make sure that the parent is profitable. We also have the ability to ask for a capital and liquidity agreement between the parent and the subsidiary, so that the-- Mr. Huizenga. Okay. So at the end of the day, you believe that the regulatory structure is there in place, correct? Ms. McWilliams. I believe that Congress gave us enough to successfully manage and regulate. Mr. Huizenga. Well, I will just note that in 2007, former FDIC Chair Sheila Bair had testified exactly to that, in that they may actually contribute significantly to community reinvestment. So, I would assume you believe that still applies today? Ms. McWilliams. I don't know exactly the full statement she said, but in general-- Mr. Huizenga. She just said that they proved to be strong, responsible parts of the nation's banking system and offered innovative approaches to banking. Ms. McWilliams. I would agree with that. Mr. Huizenga. Okay. Chair McWilliams and Vice Chair Quarles, your respective agencies study consumer financial welfare, and your data has shown that nearly half of Americans cannot afford a $400 emergency that could creep up into their lives, and they simply don't have the cash to deal with that. For many of these folks, including many in my district who are not prime borrowers, this source of a small-dollar credit line is a lifeline on those small-dollar loans. And based on your experience and research, what do you believe would be the impact of a national 36 percent APR cap on the access to this type of credit for these consumers? Mr. Quarles? Mr. Quarles. We haven't studied, in fact, what we think that the quantitative impact on that would be. Mr. Huizenga. Okay. Ms. McWilliams. I believe that wherever Congress were to set that cap, there would be a significant portion of small- dollar borrowers who would be excluded from the ability to get access to credit. Mr. Huizenga. You certainly have been looking at the validity of loan terms, I am assuming. It is my understanding that you are tackling serious systemic issues on safety and soundness. Is that true? Ms. McWilliams. Yes. I will take a holistic look at the underwriting standards to understand how they impact safety and soundness and consumer protection. Mr. Huizenga. And what does that mean for the greater marketplace for those types of loans? Ms. McWilliams. For small-dollar loans, in particular, there is definitely a need. Mr. Huizenga. Okay. Ms. McWilliams. And that need has been identified by, I believe, about 40 percent, if I recall that-- Mr. Huizenga. And how does the Madden decision figure into that? Ms. McWilliams. The Madden decision, frankly, disrupts the over a century-long precedent that we have had, that allows-- Congress made it legal to allow banks to originate loans. And basically, what Madden disrupted was the ability of a bank to sell the loan and the ability of the purchaser to assume the interest rate under which that loan was sold. Frankly, it is a disruption in the secondary market which affects safety and soundness. Mr. Huizenga. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Foster, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Foster. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you to our witnesses here. Prior to the last crisis, one of the fundamental mismodeled risks was that the bond ratings produced by the rating agencies were just flat-out wrong. And U.S. corporate debt has now swelled to nearly $10 trillion, which is almost 50 percent of GDP, and is well in excess of any previous record, and well in excess of where it was pre-crisis. Experts from the IMF to asset manager Blackrock to the Fed have recently warned that the risk posed by ballooning allegedly investment-grade debt may pose to our economy. According to the IMF report on financial stability this year, it was the weakest firms that accounted for most of the growth and are increasingly using debt for financial risk- taking, such as investor payouts that lever up the company, M&A activity, rather than capital improvements such as plant and equipment. And they are doing this, apparently, in response to both interest rate and tax policy. The problem is, of course, exacerbated by the fact that the bond ratings remain fundamentally suspect due to Congress and everyone's failure to deal with the fundamental conflict of interest in the issuer-pays model for bond ratings. So, Vice Chairman Quarles and Chairman McWilliams, would you agree with this assessment of the increasingly risky nature of corporate debt that has emerged over the last year? Mr. Quarles. I think that is a complex question. Corporate debt has been growing. The debt service burden has not been growing, because of the low level of interest rates. The structures in which the riskiest debts are held are generally not runnable structures, by which I mean-- Mr. Foster. Could you elaborate on that? Mr. Quarles. Yes. By which I mean that the terms of the--a lot of this leverage lending is being sold into collateralized loan obligation vehicles, and the holders of those vehicles, the maturity of their obligations, their exposure, is longer than the maturity of the exposure inside of the institution, and therefore it is difficult for them to run from the institute, from a precipitous change in the value of the underlying assets. So what does all of that mean? I look at that as saying there is much less of a financial stability risk of this, but I do think that there is a possibility that there could be a decline in value of these assets, and that could exacerbate some future business downturns. Mr. Foster. Yes. So how do you model, in your stress testing, the potential detonation of this $10 trillion unexploded bomb? Mr. Quarles. Our models take into account the expected losses of different classes of assets. We do take the credit quality of these assets into account. Mr. Foster. Do you model the possibility that there are just fundamental errors in the bond ratings? Mr. Quarles. Our model does not rely entirely on the bond ratings in determining the losses that are expected here, and certainly not for the loans as opposed to the bonds that are part of this phenomenon. But I do think that there are supervisory actions that we can take, and that the agencies together have taken through the Shared National Credit Program to address this issue. We have looked at leveraged lending in each of the last two Shared National Credit examinations. It has been a particular focus. And where we have seen origination practices that we don't think are consistent with safety and soundness, we have taken supervisory action against those as part of that process. Mr. Foster. Chairman McWilliams? Ms. McWilliams. As Vice Chairman Quarles said, it is a very complicated issue. We have engaged in this so-called Shared National Credit, or SNC, review every Q1 and Q3 of each year. Our teams get together and do a review and we publish the findings in January, so there should be a forthcoming review of the Shared National Credit portfolios of the banks. The $10 trillion that you mentioned, not all of that is leveraged. That is corporate debt, in general. According to our estimates, less than a quarter of that is so-called leveraged. One of the issues that we are running into is that there is no common definition of leveraged loan, and so, we-- Mr. Foster. It is sort of similar to what became toxic assets, where there wasn't a clear definition of what was what there. Ms. McWilliams. I would say there is some distinction there. And I know this is important to you. It is important to us as well. I have instructed our examiners and supervisory folks to go back and take a look at, what are these banks claiming as leveraged lending? So when you look at the $10 trillion number, some of these definitions for leveraged lending are 20 to 25 pages long. And some include indirect exposure and some include only direct exposure. So we are trying to get to a best place where we understand what is being held directly by banks, which we know, versus what is being held indirectly outside of the banks. Mr. Foster. Thank you. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Stivers, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Stivers. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I want to thank you for holding this hearing. It is an important hearing and I, like you, look forward to speaking with the Comptroller when he does come before the committee, because I think it is an important regulator. But I appreciate the three of you being here. My first couple of questions are for Vice Chair Quarles. You recently had a conference in Abu Dhabi and the International Association of Insurance Supervisors (IAIS), and Treasury, and sort of Team USA was there. Treasury put out a statement afterwards saying they couldn't support the IAIS proposal on Version 2.0 because they didn't feel like U.S. insurers should face pressure to participate in a reference insurance capital standard (ICS) that is not expected to apply to the United States and doesn't fit our markets. They also thought that this current ICS could risk limiting U.S. consumers' access to important long-term savings products. Do you agree with the statements that the Treasury put out? Mr. Quarles. I think that Treasury articulated serious issues, and I agree that those are issues. As you know, the-- Mr. Stivers. And is Team USA together with one strategy and goal at these meetings? That is the intention of the question here. Mr. Quarles. Yes, I mean, I think that-- Mr. Stivers. There we go. Mr. Quarles. --the Team USA, the three elements of it--the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, the Fed, and the Treasury--continue to work to the same objective. As you are aware, in Abu Dhabi the NAIC sort of took the lead in negotiating a compromise. As with any compromise, there are issues around it. I think that Treasury was correct in highlighting those issues. The Fed believes that it was, however, a compromise that allows us to continue to achieve U.S. objectives in the ongoing IAIS process, and so we are supportive of it. Mr. Stivers. It at least moves the ball forward, but I think we need to keep our eye on the ball and make sure that we are all looking out for the American consumer and American companies being competitive internationally. So I appreciate that, Governor. Mr. Quarles. Yes. I completely agree with that. Mr. Stivers. Great. The other thing I want to talk about is the aggregation method and buildings blocks approach that you are working on. The Fed is developing a building blocks approach for a number of insurers that are supervised by the Federal Reserve Board, and it is significant in an international context, given that the first proposal included a realization that the aggregation method is being considered by the IAIS. And I am just curious, and I hope you will consider it, because this is a pretty complicated thing. I believe the Federal Reserve has gotten letters from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the American Property Casualty Association (APCIA), the American Council of Life Insurers (ACLI), the National Association of Mutual Insurance Companies (NAMIC), and the Insurance Coalition, asking you to extend your December 23rd comment period deadline, because these are very complicated proposals that affect a lot of people in a lot of different ways. And so, this is not a question so much as a statement. I genuinely hope that you will consider their request to extend the comment period, because these are very important outcomes and very complicated matters. Mr. Quarles. Thank you, and we will-- Mr. Stivers. And I am not going to put you on the spot to ask you whether you will or won't, because you might say no and I don't want you to say no. I want you to consider it. Mr. Quarles. We will consider it. Mr. Stivers. Great. And I want to follow up on something my colleague from Missouri, Mr. Luetkemeyer, talked about, the CECL rule. And I think his next grandson is going to be named Cecil, because he talks about it so much. But Governor Quarles, will the Fed consider giving institutions credit for their CECL reserves in overall capital standards as we move forward? That seems to be the way we can make a change that allows what could be excessive reserves to be normalized and still end up with the right amount of capital and not deny these institutions the ability to lend and grow our economy. Mr. Quarles. Yes. While we haven't made any sort of decision until we see exactly how CECL operates in the real world as opposed to through modeling, I think that is something that has to be on the table. Mr. Stivers. Great. And really quick, down the line, should we have a consolidated approach, an interagency review of CRA to make sure it works for all institutions? I know it doesn't apply to credit unions today, but frankly, a lot of big credit unions, I think, do need it. So, I'm going to ask you to comment anyway. Mr. Hood. The credit unions' mission is based on the premise of people helping people. They are serving people of low to moderate incomes already through the products that they are offering, through their activities in the community, by way of investments. So I would say that credit unions do not need government fiats if you encourage them to do the right thing. Mr. Stivers. I will follow up in writing. Thanks, Madam Chairwoman. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on National Security, International Development and Monetary Policy, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Mr. Quarles, let me make sure that I get a good understanding. A lot of us, primarily our leader, were instrumental in getting Dodd-Frank approved, and there were provisions in Dodd-Frank that gave the responsibility to the Fed to implement a number of our provisions, the provisions of Dodd-Frank, including the mandate to preserve and promote MDIs. The numbers are ugly: 66 MDIs have been lost since 2008. We had 215 in 2008 compared to 149 in--I should have provided this before we started. But this is a chart that deals with MDIs, and it is not a pretty chart. I am interested in you or someone explaining to me, how did you handle the mandate to preserve, and maybe even more importantly, promote MDIs? Mr. Quarles. Thank you for that. We have taken that responsibility very seriously. We have established what we call the Partnership for Progress (PFP) throughout the Federal Reserve System, which is a national outreach effort using the resources of the Fed to help minority depository institutions know how to address the unique challenges of their business model. That PFP program, as we call it, is very active in all of the reserve banks. And we have the resources behind it in order to help majority institutions throughout the country. Mr. Cleaver. So you are saying you have promoted and continued to push for a reversal of the trend-- Mr. Quarles. Yes, absolutely. Mr. Cleaver. So I am interested, if you did, why has it failed? You would agree that--I will give you the shortest. It is very ugly. So it means that something has not worked. If you are putting forth an effort and we go from 215 in 2008, to 149, we are hustling backward. Mr. Quarles. The challenges that face minority institutions and community banks, in general. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman will suspend. Mr. Cleaver, I want to put your chart up, that you are referring to, so everybody can see it. So just hold on for a minute and we will get it up. I want to make sure that it is available to both sides and to everybody. Mr. Cleaver. I apologize. I didn't know I was going to go there, until I listened to him. Mr. Quarles. May I talk for a bit while the chart is going up? Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman will suspend. [pause] Chairwoman Waters. Please go right ahead. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. You can see this FDIC-insured minority depository insurance, and then if you look down you can clearly see, as time moves on, things get worse. And hopefully, you can take this with you when you leave. But my question is, if that is correct, and I am 100 percent certain that it is, who is working on this? Mr. Quarles. I believe that it is correct, and we are concerned about that trend. Mr. Cleaver. No. I don't like to interrupt people, but you are saying you are concerned. I am, too. Mr. Quarles. But we are regularly engaged with these minority depository institutions. In addition to the Partnership for Progress, where we provide them technical assistance, we have other sorts of technical assistance programs. We have a regular minority depository institution leaders' forum that we host at the Fed. The interagency process has a separate minority depository institution technical assistance program that we provide, conferences that we provide for them. Mr. Cleaver. Okay. Thank you. Anybody else? Ms. McWilliams. I would like to, if you don't mind, just add something. Section 308 of the Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery, and Enforcement Act (FIRREA) gave us the responsibility to protect and preserve the minority depository institutions and we take that mandate very seriously. We have done a number of things at the FDIC to strengthen the ability of the MDIs to survive. I, like you, am actually, frankly, very concerned about the disappearing landscape of American minority depository institutions, and, in particular, of the African-American depository institutions. One of the things that I asked our staff to do is to analyze exactly what is the impact of our regulations, and do we understand how these MDIs can be helped. This is the bottom line. A lot of them need capital infusion, and frankly, I think there is an opportunity to address that in the CRA. And that is why I would just ask you to be open-minded to the changes we can make in the CRA to benefit the MDIs. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman's time has expired. The gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. Barr, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Barr. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. To the witnesses, as you know, Kentuckians have a deep history and interest in the production, cultivation, and sale of industrial hemp. That dates back to Speaker Henry Clay. The hemp industry in the commonwealth is booming. However, despite the legalization of industrial hemp in the 2018 Farm Bill, hemp farmers and producers and hemp-related businesses have had trouble accessing financial services. As you may know, I authored an amendment on this issue that was included in the Safe Banking Act, which the House passed in September. My amendment would require your regulatory agencies to issue guidance confirming that industrial hemp and hemp- derived products are legal and that banks don't need to file suspicious activity reports solely because a transaction relates to hemp. I want to thank you and your agencies, along with FinCEN for issuing that very guidance--I believe it was issued yesterday--along those lines that will help the hemp industry in my district gain access to financial services. Chairman McWilliams and Vice Chairman Quarles, your agencies issued that guidance that clarifies the legality of industrial hemp and states that banks are no longer required to file suspicious activity reports simply because their customers are engaged with hemp growth or production. I have heard from Kentucky bankers about this. They welcome this guidance, and it will go a long way toward helping the hemp industry to thrive. Chair McWilliams, what plans do you have in place to train your examiners about how they should supervise institutions in light of hemp's legality and your guidance? Ms. McWilliams. We do thank you for that question, and I think that the guidance that we issued was crucial in making sure that there is at least some form of a roadmap for banks engaged in banking hemp-related businesses. We have done training with our examiners, and we will continue to do extensive training with our examiners to understand exactly how to look at these filings and to make sure that they understand that the suspicious activity report filings are not required for hemp-related transactions. Mr. Barr. Thank you. And Chairman Hood, thank you for being first in line on this with your August 19th interim guidance on credit unions serving hemp businesses. What is your timeline for releasing updated guidance? Mr. Hood. We are continuing now, sir, to work with the industry to provide training to our examiners. We are also working with the State supervisory authorities to engage them in the process as well. We will now be working with the USDA and other related parties to ensure that we get it right. We will be hosting a series of roundtables to glean insight from entities, particularly insight around best practices. So, we are moving forward. Mr. Barr. Thank you. Thank you to all of you on this. One of the specific financial services which has been either unreliable or unavailable is card processing services. Does your guidance from yesterday clarify for card processing businesses that they can freely serve customers of hemp- related, and specifically CBD retailers, without any legal risk or liability? Ms. McWilliams. I don't have the guidance in front of me but we can circle back. I don't recall. Mr. Barr. I have read the guidance closely, as you can tell, and I didn't see that in there, and that is the financial service that has really been unreliable and spotty. And so if you need to update that guidance to give more legal clarity to card processing businesses, I think that might be in order. Do you have a response to that? Ms. McWilliams. We will certainly take a look and make sure that we communicate to our regulated entities to see what is working and what is not, vis-a-vis our guidance. And to the extent that we need to do additional explaining, we are more than happy to engage in that process. Mr. Barr. I will just tell you that congressional intent is not only that the regulators confirm the legality of industrial hemp and hemp-related retailers under the Farm Bill, but that those retailers and merchants can use card processing services to sell the product itself, and that has been the financial services issue for the most part. So I would ask all of you if you need to revisit the guidance to do so, to make sure that hemp-related businesses, legal under Federal law, can offer those card processing services. Ms. McWilliams. We will, and we will certainly make sure that we implement congressional intent as intended. Mr. Barr. Great. Thanks. Let me move on really quickly. Vice Chairman Quarles, would you describe the criteria you use to evaluate non-G-SIB firms for inclusion in the Large Institution Supervision Coordinating Committee portfolio, the LISCC portfolio? Would you describe the criteria? Mr. Quarles. The issue with that question is that actually the criteria are under active review, so we are in the middle of developing a more concrete and transparent-- Mr. Barr. I would encourage a clear offramp that firms may elect to exit the LISCC portfolio. Finally, on leveraged lending, Vice Chair Quarles, do CLOs provide liquidity in stress market environments as long-term, market-to-market investors, and how might an overreaction to leveraged lending undermine financial stability? Mr. Quarles. I am not sure. I will follow up with you. Mr. Barr. Thank you. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. The gentlewoman from Ohio, Mrs. Beatty, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on Diversity and Inclusion, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mrs. Beatty. Thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman, and I thank the ranking member and our witnesses. Thank you for being here. I have a few questions I am going to try to get through in my time period, but first, after being in the anteroom and hearing part of the testimony and questioning from Congressman Cleaver, I would like to share with the witnesses that Congressman Meeks and I both have a bill that deals with MDIs. Since it was brought to my attention that you could not answer the questions about the MDIs, would you be willing to send me a briefing page on your analysis or whatever you have, and maybe our staffs can work together. Is that a problem for anyone? Ms. McWilliams. Our staffs can always work together, and we would be happy to engage. Mrs. Beatty. All right. Thank you. Mr. Hood. Congresswoman, I just wanted to share that our credit union data was not reflected in the chart. We at NCUA are working with roughly 500 minority depositories. We continue to marshal resources to ensure their viability, so they can serve communities in need. Mrs. Beatty. Thank you so much, Mr. Hood, for that, and we will see if when you all get together, you can certainly incorporate that data. We have heard a lot about the role I play as Chair of the Diversity and Inclusion Subcommittee, and it is very important to me for a whole host of reasons, because I think it goes far beyond Dodd-Frank and Section 342. I am very appreciative that you have Office of Minority and Women Inclusion (OMWI) Directors. But I think it goes over into other things, whether that is MDIs, whether that is looking at what happens on November the 19th, with the FDIC, when you voted unanimously to issue a proposed rule to codify longstanding guidance that allows applicants with minor criminal records to work in banking. And Ms. McWilliams, this question is going to be for you. While I understand clearly the intent of the law, but it is a lifetime ban for any criminal offense regarding dishonesty, breach of trust. It seems to me that it goes far too far and captures too many other minor offenses. I was just at a meeting this morning when someone shared with me that in college, their child's roommate had a fake ID, and the consequences ended up being more than just a slap on the wrist. And so as we talk about moving forward, let me just be really direct: I really have a problem with the decision and what you just did. So, Ms. McWilliams, can you explain why the FDIC made the decision to move forward with this rulemaking? And let me remind you, it was a rulemaking from 1950. Ms. McWilliams. I believe we have a common problem, and I am not in disagreement with you. What we tried to do on Section 19 in the proposal we issued was basically to update, as you mentioned, some of the archaic standards that Congress put in place for the inability of persons who committed minor infractions and have paid their debt to society and redeemed themselves to be able to re-enter the workforce at banks. I am in complete agreement with you that we can do more, and our November initiative was exactly aimed at that, and the initiative received a unanimous vote of the FDIC board. So, I am not sure exactly where we are in disagreement. Mrs. Beatty. Okay. We will take a look at that. Can you tell me, Mr. Quarles, what is the topic of today's hearing? Mr. Quarles. Oversight of the bank regulatory agencies. Mrs. Beatty. Everybody else had other words in there. It's like safety and diversity. It was a long title. And so, let me just make an observation. When I look at Mr. Hood's testimony and what was sent out to all of us, it does say that it is the oversight, but it says ensuring safety, soundness, diversity, and accountability. And both of your colleagues took great pains to write about diversity and inclusion, and to share that. So if I were doing just a mock little study, and I would say we have an African American, and we have a female, and we have a majority, I find it quite interesting that the female and the minority talked about diversity and inclusion as it related to soundness and as it related to regulations, and nowhere in your written testimony did it say anything-- anything--about diversity, at all. But yet you had some very interesting statements when you said financial regulation, like any other policy, is a product of our history. And so, I am going to use that and say back to you, I think diversity, or lack of it, is a product of our history. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Tipton, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Tipton. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I appreciate the panel taking the time to be here today. I did want to follow up a little on my colleague, Mr. Luetkemeyer's, questions in regard to CECL. There was a recent CSVS survey of 571 banks that found that only 60 percent of the banks think that they have adequate internal controls to be able to handle CECL; 22 percent think that they will need to obtain more, and 18 percent do not know. Vice Chair Quarles, I guess one of the concerns that I have is, some of the banks, 60 percent, think that they are going to be able to handle it, but is the ultimate outcome in terms of a downturn in the economy, the ability to be able to make loans to consumers maybe when they need it the most? Is that part of the equation being included in some formulation for CECL? Mr. Quarles. As you know, there is a limit to what we can do with the accounting standard, because we don't create the accounting standard. But as we look at what the potential effect will be, and as we monitor the implementation of the accounting standard during this 3-year phase-in that we have established, we obviously would be looking at all of the effects that it has on the industry and on individual institutions. Mr. Tipton. One thing, just really to encourage--I come from a rural area, and oftentimes, it is hard for businesses to get access to capital to operate. Some of the impacts that this could ultimately have on some of our regional banks, in particular, they play a very critical role, is something that I hope you will give a lot of consideration to. And I did want to also be able to return to some of the CRA. I appreciate the comments my colleague, Mr. Meeks, made. But Chair McWilliams, we didn't really get to hear from you, some of the goals of the CRA modernization that you would like to see if you do, in fact, join with the OCC in putting forward those proposals. Ms. McWilliams. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify that. From my personal perspective, the CRA reform--frankly, the regulators have not touched the CRA regulations since 1995. The way the banks do business has changed tremendously since that time. We have more banks engaged in digital offerings and yet the definition of the assessment area is decades old. And so the goal that I have, personally, is to modernize the provisions to address some of the digital lending channels, to figure out how can we do more to encourage long-term investments and not just have banks look at a 3-year cycle as they look to make these investments. I believe if they have a long-term view, they will have a bigger impact on their communities. I think there is a whole lot more we can do for rural areas, for small family farms. There is more we can do for small businesses, minority depository institutions, as I discussed. There is certainty that we can provide in the marketplace that, frankly, is now lacking. We do not want to have, at least from my perspective, an exercise in Community Reinvestment Act compliance where the banks just get the numbers and check the box and they are done. We want to have meaningful impact on the ground in the communities that they serve. Mr. Tipton. I appreciate that, and I really encourage broadband development in rural America as probably one of the more important issues that we need to have. Vice Chair Quarles, could you explain some of the reservations that you might have in joining the FDIC and the OCC in regards to CRA modernization? Mr. Quarles. I think it is important to stress that we have been working jointly with the OCC and with the FDIC on CRA modernization, and that there is a shared view among all of the regulatory agencies, among community groups, among banks, among everyone who is affected by this regulation, that the regulation can be improved, that the implementation of the statutory requirement is not as well-served as it could be by existing practice. And I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle myself, around the agencies potentially moving at different speeds. The OCC came out with its advance notice of proposed rulemaking (ANPR) by itself a while ago, without the FDIC or the Fed. The Fed had a broad outreach in all of the reserve banks in order to get input. The OCC chose to do it through an ANPR. We had a different mechanism. The FDIC had its own mechanism. And then, we all took that input and worked together to reach an endpoint. We are only at the point of whether a notice of proposed rulemaking will go out. We are not at the point of a final rule, and the objective ought to be that at the end, all three agencies will join in a final rule, and we have our independent processes for how we will get there. So, I think it is premature to say that we are parting ways. Mr. Tipton. I yield back. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentlewoman from Michigan, Ms. Tlaib, is recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Tlaib. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I appreciate all of you being here. I want to talk a little bit about rent-a-bank schemes. Banks are generally exempted, as you all know, when they offer credit from State rate caps that cover payday lenders and other online lenders. For many years, these payday lenders and others have attempted to take advantage of this exception by entering into rent-a-bank schemes, where they launder their loans through banks and then purchase those loans back, but continue to charge the higher rates that would be illegal under current State laws in those places. Chairwoman McWilliams, you had expressed your desire to see responsible lending take place inside banks. You have also said the agency frowns upon arrangements between banks and non-bank lenders for the sole purpose of evading State law. However, the proposed rule, if I may submit it for the record, Chairwoman-- Chairwoman Waters. Without objection, it is so ordered. Ms. Tlaib. Thank you. The proposed rule says the complete opposite. You allow the exemption to continue under these proposed rules from the OCC. As we speak right now, FinWise Bank, in Utah, is facilitating essentially a shadow banking scheme right now in Michigan, where they--so the OppLoans, or whatever they call them, make predatory lending 160 percent APR, but in Michigan, we pass laws that basically say the rate installment loan should be at 37 percent. I am just curious, Chairwoman McWilliams, isn't the OppLoans' rent-a-bank scheme's sole purpose to evade State law? Ms. McWilliams. I can't speak for a specific bank or a specific product. I can tell you that--and I hope that you have the IDIC proposal in front of you--the only thing we are trying to do in that proposal, and we did, was basically seek information on almost 200 years of case law, extending to the Supreme Court-- Ms. Tlaib. But isn't the sole purpose evading State law? Ms. McWilliams. We did not touch on the issue that you are discussing, which is the-- Ms. Tlaib. Why? You said that you wanted to focus on making sure that we have responsible lending. Ms. McWilliams. I don't-- Ms. Tlaib. My district is the third-poorest congressional district. We are literally front-line communities for these payday lenders. And we advocated, on the local level, within the legislature for 6 years. We said we have to push back because it is increasing the cycle of poverty, right? And we are asking for us to know that when we see a scheme like this that is targeting communities that we are supposed to be protecting, that we are issuing proposed rules that basically protect it, and to stop these schemes. I know these are not folks on the street. These are bankers. But these are so-called folks from the business sector and corporations, but they should be treated the same way as any criminal on the street would when they are trying to push something that is obviously laundering money through a rent-a- bank scheme. Correct? Ms. McWilliams. There has been a lot of confusion about what we did and what we didn't do, and I believe you are talking about the doctrine of so-called true lender, which our proposal did not touch. Our proposal, the only thing it did--if you have the proposal in front of you, you will see the only thing it did is, in fact, address our longstanding principles that Congress gave us the authority to do in 1980, which is to say that when a loan is made and the interest rates are not usurious at a time when the loan is made, no subsequent event makes those loans usurious, basically preserving the sanctity of a contract to ensure that there is a secondary market for the sale of these loans. States do have an opportunity to opt out of that regime. Congress, you, gave them that authority in Section 27 of the FDIA Act as well. And, frankly, we frown upon and we look disfavorably upon the schemes that you are talking about. Ms. Tlaib. But why aren't we addressing that in the proposed rule? Ms. McWilliams. Do you have our rule in front of you? Ms. Tlaib. Yes. No. It actually still does not allow--it allows them to evade the State laws. It allows them to-- Ms. McWilliams. That is incorrect. Ms. Tlaib. So right now, you are telling me these rent-a- bank schemes are illegal? Ms. McWilliams. The rent-a-bank schemes, what you are referring to as rent-a-bank, is not a regulatory term. Ms. Tlaib. I know. What do you call it? Ms. McWilliams. Those schemes and arrangements are provided under the so-called true lender doctrine, which we didn't touch. It is up to States to decide what rate caps are appropriate, if any, and whether or not the States want to opt out of the ability of the interest rates to be preserved when an out-of-State entity purchases that loan product. Ms. Tlaib. I think we need to shut down these schemes. We can call them whatever we want. My folks call them rent-a-bank schemes. We need to shut them down. State laws out there, across the country, are preventing this form of predatory lending, and we, as the government, are not preventing it from actually happening. We are not creating the safeguards that are available. So, Chairwoman, before I end, I would like to submit some articles from the Center for Responsible Lending, as well as the National Consumer Law Center, that are talking about where around the country these schemes continue to target people that we all represent. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. Without objection, it is so ordered. Ms. McWilliams. We are certainly not in favor of predatory lending. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Williams, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Williams. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I thank all of you for coming today. With last week being Thanksgiving, I spent some time thinking about how blessed we are to live in the greatest country in the world. We are a nation of opportunity and incentive, and because of those principles, we are a nation of hope where everyone can benefit. At its core, it is capitalism and the free market that helps make this country so great. So it is a system that rewards innovation because it maintains demand for the best products at the best price. I am a car dealer, and I can tell you we have really good prices right now out there, so you need to know that. With that in mind, though, capitalism is the greatest force in the history of our world for lifting people out of poverty, and I pray that we will instill this virtue in future generations. Chairwoman McWilliams, back in May, when I asked you if you were a capitalist or a socialist, you mentioned that you grew up in communism, spent time in socialism, and now choose capitalism. So, I would assume nothing has changed in your decision since May? Ms. McWilliams. Nothing has changed in my decision since May. Correct. Mr. Williams. So given your unique life experience with these economic systems, can you quickly elaborate on the beauty of capitalism? Ms. McWilliams. I don't think that 5 minutes, or 3 minutes and 38 seconds of your time is going to allow me an opportunity to speak on my appreciation of this system, but I can tell you that I am teaching my daughter about the privilege of being born in the United States and the benefits bestowed upon anyone who has that privilege. I can tell you that as I was growing up, my father had to give up a small piece of farm land in order for me to qualify for a free school lunch, which was then revoked about 6 months later. And having the ability to protect private property ownership rights and the ability to live in a free and prosperous economic society that preserves the rights of the individual is something that I think is the greatest blessing in my life. Mr. Williams. Well said. Thank you. Vice Chairman Quarles, my colleague, Mr. Stivers, touched on this earlier about the meeting in Abu Dhabi, and I think that maybe we could talk about that a little bit more. I understand that the IAIS agreed to enter a monitoring period for its global insurance capital standard but did not formally implement the ICS due to ongoing concerns raised by the Department of the Treasury. While last month's meeting seems to be a step in the right direction, I still have some concerns, considering our State- based regulatory system that has been effective for the last 150 years. We must do all we can to ensure that whatever international standards are agreed to, it will not put the U.S. insurance companies at a competitive disadvantage. So I have two questions for you, Vice Chairman. First, will you commit to staying engaged on this topic moving forward? And second, do you feel as if the results of the meeting in Abu Dhabi give us the ability to create our own domestic standard for insurance regulations? Mr. Quarles. I will definitely remain engaged on this going forward, both through my work at the Federal Reserve and as Chairman of the Financial Stability Board, of which the IAIS is a member. Did the agreement in Abu Dhabi give us the ability to continue to pursue American interests in this process? I think that it did. As I indicated earlier, it was a compromise. It was a compromise that was negotiated by the National Association of Insurance Commissioners. By definition, no compromise gives every side everything that it would want, but I think that it gave us enough, the United States enough to continue to ensure that the international process takes account of our system. Mr. Williams. Chairwoman McWilliams, in an op-ed you wrote for the American Banker in October, you stated the following: ``If our regulatory framework is unable to evolve with technological advances, the United States may cease to be a place where ideas and concepts become the products and services that improve people's lives.'' I completely agree with you, with your statement. I think that one area that would be especially beneficial to update would be the broker deposit rules and regulations. As you know, these rules haven't been updated in over 30 years, and are so overly broad that they capture a wide variety of new companies that have been working to get more people to the traditional financial system. I know you have been working diligently on this issue and can't comment on specifics, possibly, but I hope we will see something soon out of the FDIC on broker deposits. So, Chairwoman, other than the broker deposit rule, what has the FDIC been doing in the fintech space to work innovation in the banking system and modernize supervision? Ms. McWilliams. Thank you for that question. Yes, I think this is one of the underappreciated areas in the regulatory world, because innovation seems to be happening and quite often it seems to be happening outside of the regulated entities. We want that innovation to happen inside the regulated entities, and I will submit for the record some of the initiatives we have undertaken. Mr. Williams. Thank you very much. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. The gentlewoman from Massachusetts, Ms. Pressley, is recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Pressley. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for ensuring that oversight continues to be a priority for this committee. We have a government structure to work one way for banks and businesses and another for consumers and working families. That is why I pushed the Federal Reserve to provide everyday consumers with the same settlement services it already provides for banks. Working families shouldn't have to wait 3 to 5 days for a check to clear. Now, Mr. Quarles, you were the lone dissenter in the Federal Reserve's decision to develop FedNow, which was heralded by small businesses and consumer groups alike. I do believe how one chooses to spend their time reflects what they value, and, more importantly, whom they value. Mr. Quarles, over the weekend the New York Times published a profile on your regulatory approach, and notably, you have chosen to spend your time in this role--in your first 21 months in office, you met with Goldman Sachs 24 times, you met with JPMorgan 19 times, you met with Morgan Stanley 17 times, and with Citi 12 times. In that same timeframe, how many consumer groups did you meet with? Mr. Quarles. Over the course of my first 21 months in office, I met with approximately, at a conservative estimate, 15,000 to 20,000 people. The great majority of those--you have noted that 26 of those were Goldman Sachs out of 15,000 to 20,000 people. That is, again, at a conservative estimate, 14/ 100ths of 1 percent of my time was spent with that and the other 99.86 percent of my time was spent with others. Ms. Pressley. Okay. Consumers? Because again, who you spend your time with speaks to whom you value. Mr. Quarles. Yes. Ms. Pressley. And the fact that you were the lone dissenting voice about whether or not to expedite payments of hardworking Americans, so that they can get what they have worked for in a 3- to 5-day period, something banks already have, I think is indicative of something else. Mr. Quarles. But, ma'am, I dissented because I believed that the proposal would harm those consumers. Ms. Pressley. Reclaiming my time. Again, you were the lone dissenter on that, and I asked, did you engage consumer groups, and you didn't indicate any. The Federal Reserve was notably missing from the recently issued notice of proposed rulemaking on the Community Reinvestment Act. A strong CRA is a top priority for civil rights groups and many members of this committee. Mr. Quarles, how many civil rights groups did you meet with in those first 21 months? Can you just name a few, specifically? Mr. Quarles. I met with many. Ms. Pressley. NAACP? ACLU? Mr. Quarles. I don't remember the names of them. I met with many of them and I will happy to provide that information. Ms. Pressley. I would like to see that list, but I am incredulous that you cannot immediately cite civil rights organizations, knowing what a priority a strong CRA is to these groups, and that you can't immediately detail or enumerate that you have met with any of them. So, I look forward to that list. When Chairman Powell was before us, I called on the Fed to better reflect the interests of hardworking American people, a sentiment I echo to all regulators, including those who could not make it here today. However, when large banks have a greater access to the Federal Reserve's leadership than even sitting Members of Congress, we have a problem. I want to be clear. My colleagues and I are paying very close attention. Wherever gaps in oversight exist, we fill them. Hundreds of thousands of hourly employees doing the everyday business of banking--opening checking accounts, originating loans, detecting fraud and money laundering--all while complying with regulations. However, we have seen how extractive sales quotas and performance metrics can result in disaster for low-level employees. The Wells Fargo scandal is a prime example of this. So Ms. McWilliams, yes or no, do you track banks' employment practices and metrics? Ms. McWilliams. When you say employment practices, can you elaborate? Ms. Pressley. Well, some that I already cited. I spoke about just the everyday business and practices of banking-- opening checking accounts, originating loans, detecting fraud and money laundering--and again, these extractive sales quotas and these performance metrics, according to those practices, can result in disaster for low-level employees. Ms. McWilliams. I don't disagree with you that certain bank culture can certainly create problems for both the employees and their customers. In terms of tracking performance, we do have supervisory tools to which we look at the number of accounts opened, we look at how banks are conducting the business of banking. We make sure that they comply with the consumer protection laws and statutes. Ms. Pressley. Thank you. I'm sorry. I am running out of time. Mr. Quarles, do you track banks' employment practices and metrics? Mr. Quarles. We do. Ms. Pressley. Okay. And in the wake of that scandal, thousands of front-line workers lost their jobs, while only a handful of more senior-level employees faced similar consequences, and that is why, with the support of the AFL-CIO and the Communication Workers--I'm sorry. That is my time? Okay. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Hill, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Hill. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thanks for providing us the opportunity to have oversight over the bank regulatory system. I want to thank each of you for appearing today. Thanks for spending time with us. And congratulations for the hard work over the last few months to implement S.2155 across the agencies. You met together. You had your checklists. You got that work done and reported that to Congress in a timely way, and all of us and our constituents. Thank you for that attention. Mr. Quarles, I wanted to follow up on a discussion that we have had on and off over the last few weeks and talk briefly about bank supervision by the Federal Reserve as it relates to the September 16th, September 17th disruption in the repurchase market. I know that is being studied by the Fed in earnest, led by the New York bank, and I appreciated that. But when you see the amount of reserves held by the banks, they are extensive. They are far above any requirement of the Dodd-Frank rules. There is very little chance of a foot fault in those reserves that I think particularly the big banks hold. In fact, looking at the numbers, the four largest banks, collectively, have more cash at the Fed than the next 24 combined. So, there seems to be a lot of cash held at the Fed. How does the Fed make clear to banks that inter-day lending is a good thing, in other words, that banks have access to those cash amounts that are far in excess of what they need regulatorily? Mr. Quarles. I think there are a variety of measures that we can take. We are actively looking at what will be effective. We do want to ensure that our supervisory, both the regulatory system and our supervisory practices are not creating undue incentives for the hoarding of central bank reserves by some institutions. Part of that is simply communication, ensuring that our supervisors are communicating clearly about what Fed expectations are. Some of it can be taking measures to ensure that banks are comfortable, that they will have access to immediate liquidity from other forms of--if they are holding other forms of liquid assets other than central bank reserves, and all of that is under active consideration. Mr. Hill. Certainly, before the financial crisis, having a daylight overdraft at the Fed was considered a routine business activity. Would you agree with that? Mr. Quarles. Absolutely. Mr. Hill. Has there been much to speak of in the ways of daylight overdrafts by the banking industry since the crisis? Mr. Quarles. Very little. Mr. Hill. Would you say there is a stigma that has been attached to having a daylight overdraft during an inter-day process? Mr. Quarles. I think that is inarguable. We hear that from the industry. Mr. Hill. That issue is curious to me, when I think Mr. Dimon at JPMorgan Chase just reported something like $60 billion in cash was required that he keep that at the Fed but his cash balance was like $120 billion, for example, on a daily basis. That seems like a lot of room to participate in that market if there was an economic incentive to do so. So assuming there is an economic incentive to have a rising repo rate, I am just curious why that stigma is so pronounced? Mr. Quarles. Among the consequences of the increased transparency after Dodd-Frank has been a decreasing willingness of institutions to take advantage of some of the credit provisions from the Federal Reserve and that has contributed, although I do want to emphasize that we don't think that it is the driving factor, but that it has contributed to some of-- Mr. Hill. Right. I have heard G-SIB surcharges might contribute to it, and others. But do you think Section 1103 of Dodd-Frank that requires the Fed to publicly disclose that banks borrowed at the discount window should be reconsidered? Mr. Quarles. I wouldn't go so far--I haven't concluded that it should be--well, it depends on the definition of ``reconsidered.'' Mr. Hill. Should we repeal it? Mr. Quarles. I certainly haven't concluded that it should be repealed, but we should be aware of the full range of its consequences. Mr. Hill. Thank you. I want to touch on a couple of other things. Chairman Luetkemeyer talked about screen scraping. I would like each of you to answer this question: Do you support the use of APIs by financial institutions that you regulate exclusively for access to consumer data by data aggregators that aren't part of the bank. Mr. Quarles? Mr. Quarles. We do support the increased use of APIs as a more secure way of dealing with-- Mr. Hill. Would you require it, do you think, in the future, subject to a rulemaking and a process and all that? Mr. Quarles. We should give consideration to that. We haven't concluded we should require it. Mr. Hill. Chair McWilliams? Ms. McWilliams. I am generally in agreement, yes. Mr. Hill. Mr. Hood? Mr. Hood. I am in general agreement, but I would have to study it for its impact on our smaller institutions. Mr. Hill. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentlewoman from New York, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, is recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you to all of our witnesses who have come here today to testify and share your testimony. I am here today, and my job here is to represent working people, and my district is quite working class. Many of my constituents are waitresses, they are teachers, they are nurses, and I am here today to get to the bottom of a problem that our taxi cab drivers have been facing. As some of you may be aware, the New York City taxi medallion crisis has driven many owner-drivers, targeted by predatory loans, to financial ruin and suicide. Some of my colleagues and I have called on the City to forgive the debt of these drivers, and that has been met with resistance. But while you are here before the committee, Mr. Hood, I would like to discuss the role the NCUA played in the crisis and its ability to potentially provide relief as we explore solutions. Mr. Hood, you are the primary regulator for all federally- insured credit unions. Correct? Mr. Hood. Yes, ma'am. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And as such you would have been the primary regulator for Melrose Credit Union, LOMTO Federal Credit Union, Bay Ridge Federal Credit Union, which all failed because of a significant concentration of loans collateralized by taxi medallions and safe and unsound lending practices. Correct? Mr. Hood. The credit unions that you mentioned, they had pretty much an 80-year history of providing prudential mortgages to the taxi medallion industry. So, they have been doing it for 80 years, quite successfully. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Yes. But they did fail because that concentration became untenable for them. Mr. Hood. It was a combination of concentration risk, but again, those were performing well. It was the introduction of the ride-sharing applications that really upended that traditional business model. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. I think there is an issue there, because the inspector general at your organization conducted a material loss review, and they found that the examiners repeatedly noted that these credit unions were engaged, and began to be engaged in unsafe lending practices, including failure of the credit unions to fully analyze borrower financial information, insufficient detail in credit memoranda, risky loan terms. Some of these drivers were making $30,000 a year and were given a million-dollar loan. Do you agree with the characterization of the IG's report, Mr. Hood? Mr. Hood. I certainly support the IG report in the sense that we are taking some of those actions to date now. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Great. Mr. Hood. We are issuing information around guidance on concentration risk. But I would like to note, ma'am, that also, one of the first things I have done in the 7 months of being at NCUA was to make sure that we have a senior leader whose sole responsibility is to look for borrower solutions for the individuals who have these loans. We are looking to provide them with restructurings, reduction in interest rates-- Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Great. Mr. Hood. --all of the things it is going to take to make them whole. And I would also like to note, my heart goes out to them, and I empathize with the families who have been impacted. With me, when I looked at the taxi medallion situation, I know that behind every taxi medallion loan is a family who has been impacted. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Yes. And you are aware that the examiners were sounding the alarm about this industry in 2012, 2013, and 2014, for 3 consecutive years, correct? Mr. Hood. I am aware of it because I am now at the agency, but those were activities that had already taken place, and again, most of the institutions that you have recognized, those have all been conserved. Those have all been merged into other entities. First and foremost, the individuals who were credit union members, their accounts will remain safe and sound. So, they never once lost their insured deposits. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And I greatly appreciate the actions that have been taken to prevent some of these crises in the future. My concerns now are with those who have been impacted by these predatory loans. Do you believe the NCUA bears any responsibility for the findings in the inspector general's report? Mr. Hood. I think it was important that the IG did note some things that we can do to further enhance our supervision efforts, not just with this one particular asset class. But, in general, we are going to be looking at producing general supervision, or guidance, coming up in the next few months, I would say, around just concentration risk in general. The thing is, there were so many other folks in the ecosystem involved with originating these loans. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Right. Mr. Hood. As you reference in your remarks, the taxi commission, you had State-chartered entities that were also making their originations. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you. And I am sorry. Mr. Hood. Of course. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. I just wanted to reclaim my time for the purpose of questioning. And as you said, there is a broad ecosystem. I am trying to figure out what we can do here, in this slice of it. Entities are currently selling the loans off to debt collectors at a discounted rate, yet owner-drivers are still on the hook for the original amounts. So, in other words, many of these predatory loans are being sold off for, say, $150,000 to a debt collector, but still holding the owner- driver to about a $600,000 debt for the loan. Can I have your commitment before this committee that the NCUA will do everything in its power to ensure that any benefits extended to lenders could also be extended to owner- drivers in the form of principal reduction? Mr. Hood. We are looking at individual tailored solutions to address the matter at hand. It is not a one-size-fits-all approach. What I have instructed our staff to do is to work with those individual borrowers. To the degree that they are providing us with information, ma'am, we are able to reduce their interest rates. We are able to provide them with loan restructuring, so that they-- Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And what about principal reduction, specifically? Mr. Hood. My statutory requirement is to protect the National Credit Union Share Insurance Fund for the safety and soundness of the overall system. We are now working within the means that we have to date to support providing solutions-- Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Would you consider principal reduction? Mr. Hood. That is something that would be difficult to do in managing my statutory requirements to the National Credit Union Share Insurance Fund, but I am open to look at other activities to provide borrower relief by way of loan restructurings and interest rate reductions. I do want to work with these individuals. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Okay. Thank you. We will be following up. Mr. Hood. Yes, and thank you for your recent letter. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Of course. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Loudermilk, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thank you all for being here today. I have three questions so I am going to try to get through them in my limited time here. First, Vice Chairman Quarles, I want to talk about LISCC. I trust you received the letter I led with 24 members of the committee regarding LISCC and the lack of clear, transparent criteria for designating firms. As you know, the GAO determined that three pieces of LISCC guidance are actually rules and must follow the rulemaking process. And so my question is, what is the Fed going to do to follow the required process and ensure that LISCC is transparent? Mr. Quarles. We are in the process right now of considering refinements, revisions to the LISCC designation process that will make it more concrete, more rules-based, and more transparent, and we will be shortly working on those. Mr. Loudermilk. So your intention is to follow the rulemaking process in that? Mr. Quarles. I don't know that it would go through sort of the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) rule process, but when we have completed re-looking, and re-thinking about how we can make it again more concrete and constrained and transparent, at that point then we will consider if it is--even if it is not an APA rule, it could be a Congressional Review Act rule, that we would send up. Mr. Loudermilk. That was really a concern, is if it does go under the CRA, we want to make sure that it is transparent, that we are engaged and involved. Mr. Quarles. Absolutely. Mr. Loudermilk. So we will be following up with you on that. And thank you for that. Chairman McWilliams, I want to talk about the valid-when- made issue a little further. I know that has been brought up already. Since the Madden court decision in 2015, it has really created a fragmented interpretation of banking laws and regulations--valid-when-made has been in play for a century and has brought stability. Ranking Member McHenry and I sent a letter to you that was signed by all of the Republicans on this committee, to you and Comptroller Otting in September, asking if you would provide clarity on the issue which will help keep credit accessible and affordable. Some have made the argument, as you have heard, that this rulemaking will allow non-bank lenders to evade State interest rate laws. Can you explain how that is not the case? Ms. McWilliams. It is not the case, and I will have to correct you, that the original case was an 1820 Supreme Court case. Mr. Loudermilk. Okay. Ms. McWilliams. So it is a little bit more than a century, almost 2 centuries. The only thing we did in our rulemaking, frankly, was take the guidance we have had, based on the laws that Congress gave us in 1980, to ensure that there is clarity, especially in the secondary market, which we view as important for the ability of banks to maintain safe and sound standards as they look to sell the loans. That is all we did. We did not change the existing status quo on the authorities Congress gave us in 1980. Mr. Loudermilk. So based on what you are doing, you can say that this rulemaking will not allow for non-bank lenders to evade existing State laws? Ms. McWilliams. That is correct. The issue that the Congresswoman from Michigan mentioned is something that we did not touch on in our rulemaking. In fact, we specifically said the only even close reference that is we look unfavorably and we will consider it unfavorably in our supervisory approach if banks engage in the practices that basically are deemed as predatory. Mr. Loudermilk. Okay. And I appreciate that because I think this is something that definitely needs to be done. It does affect the lending especially between the fintech industry and banks, and I appreciate the direction that you are taking on it. One last question for you, and it is regarding technology and especially artificial intelligence. As the new ranking member on the Artificial Intelligence Task Force, I sent you a letter recently about the planning, that you are planning to issue guidance regarding the bank's use of artificial intelligence, I think it is really important that as we develop the guidelines for banks regarding artificial intelligence, that the efforts are coordinated among regulators. And so, will you make every effort, really, to everybody up here, to work together to make sure that whatever regulatory guidelines that we put out there for the banking institutions regarding artificial intelligence are coordinated, so we don't have disparity between the different regulators? Ms. McWilliams. Yes. Mr. Hood. Yes. Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you. Mr. Quarles? Mr. Quarles. Absolutely. Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. The gentlewoman from Virginia, Ms. Wexton, is recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Wexton. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you to the witnesses for joining us here today. I would like to talk about something that impacts every American, and especially my constituents in the 10th Congressional District of Virginia, and that is government shutdowns. The last shutdown that we had lasted for 35 days. It was only a partial shutdown but it still cost the economy billions of dollars, 800,000 Federal employees went without pay, tens of thousands of contractors were laid off, and unlike Federal workers, they did not receive any back pay for their lost hours of work. During this time, a lot of banks and financial institutions stepped up and offered to help folks who were affected by the shutdown. They offered things like flexible payment options, no-interest loans, and this was really important to especially people who work in the national security area, because financial difficulties can impact their security clearance and then that jeopardizes their livelihood. It was great to see so many lenders take these proactive steps, but there were still issues and confusion at some financial institutions and regulatory guidance from your agencies was very slow to come. In fact, it wasn't until the 20th day of the shutdown that joint guidance was released, encouraging banks to work with borrowers who were affected by the shutdown and let them know that such efforts would not be subject to regulatory criticisms. During the shutdown that we had in 2013, it wasn't until the 9th day that guidance was issued. So this is not an isolated problem and, believe me, I don't ever want to assume that shutdowns are the new normal, but we, right now, are operating under a Continuing Resolution that is only good through December 20th. And I introduced a bill, the Shutdown Guidance for Financial Institutions Act, which passed the House of Representatives, that would basically automate the process and require that financial regulators get that guidance out within 24 hours of a shutdown. Like hundreds of other wonderful bills that we have passed in the House of Representatives, it is sitting over in the Senate. It obviously won't become law in time for the December 20th deadline that we are facing. So what I am seeking from each of you is an assurance to not just me and the members of this committee, but to Federal workers, contractors, and the financial institutions who are looking for this guidance, that there will be a timely issuance of guidance if we are not able to keep the government open come December 20th. So can I get that assurance from each of you? Mr. Hood? Mr. Hood. The credit unions were not involved in that particular guidance. I am pleased to report that our credit unions were making emergency loans and providing financial services without any regulatory guidance. They were doing it under their own volition, because they wanted to help their members have access to financial services during the shutdown. Ms. Wexton. And you will make sure that continues in the unlikely event it becomes necessary again? Mr. Hood. They have done it with or without my imprimatur, but, yes, I will certainly encourage them to continue serving the needs of their member owners. But again, to date, they were doing it without any prompting from our agency. Ms. Wexton. Good. Mr. Quarles. Thanks for highlighting the issue. We should be able to move much faster. Ms. McWilliams. As a fellow Virginian, and somebody who has spent a decade in public service, prior to this job, dependent on those Federal Government checks to make my mortgage payments, I actually want to thank you personally for your effort in this area. We took too long last time, and it shouldn't repeat. Ms. Wexton. Very good. Thank you very much, and I will yield back with that. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Davidson, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Davidson. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I thank our witnesses for your expertise and the service you are trying to render to keep our banks and our markets sound. And as we look at the hearing prior, one of my colleagues highlighted the Fed's faster payment program, and Mr. Quarles, your ``no'' vote, as you said earlier you felt that it could harm consumers, I would like to allow you a brief response. Mr. Quarles. I think there are questions about the speed with which a faster payment system can be implemented in the United States and what measures will ultimately be effective in doing that. At the end of the day, those arguments weren't persuasive to my colleagues on the board. There, I do think that one of the factors that was very reasonable for them to take into account is that the Federal Reserve, with respect to the payment system, generally does not have regulatory authority, unlike most central banks in what we would consider most of our peer central banks. So in the absence of direct regulatory authority over the payment system in order to address some of the concerns that were being raised by consumer groups, it was felt that the only way to really do that was through standing up a direct Federal Reserve offering. I didn't think that was the most effective way, but I do think it highlights that weakness in our regulatory framework that other than doing this we don't have a way of trying to ensure that some of these concerns are addressed. Mr. Davidson. Thank you for your explanation. Frankly, I had hoped that you would talk about the Fed's previous commitment that the private sector would take care of that, and frankly, having invested substantial capital in that space, now the Fed essentially wants to borrow that intellectual property for their own use. And I thought it was highly inappropriate, frankly, for the Fed to decide to move in on what they had already signaled to the market they would not move in on. And as you look at it, I hope that the Fed will continue to look at ways to tokenize the dollar, digitize the dollar, because that payment could be very swift, and could make use of the underlying blockchain technology that is going to transform central banking around the world, and hopefully doesn't leave out the United States. And certainly, it is easier to implement than some of these things. Now, it does eliminate some intermediaries, which I understand some of those intermediaries might like to make a lot of money on the transaction, fees or carry trade or what have you. But that highlights one of the other things where liquidity is just not happening the right way. Some of my colleagues have already looked at the repo market, and I just am particularly curious about the moral hazard of essentially the Fed interjecting $100 billion or so a day, at times, into the repo market. Do you see a moral hazard in that? Mr. Quarles. It is an interesting question. I don't think actually that there is a moral hazard there. Given the operating framework for monetary policy that we have described, and have said that we will be following going forward, we have to ensure that there is an ample level of reserves. We always expected that as the level of reserves shrank, at some point we would know when we got there because we would see a price response in the market. We hadn't expected that it would be so dramatic. Mr. Davidson. How would the price response happen correctly if the Fed intervenes? And so you are preventing the market from functioning, in a way, because of Fed intervention. And when you look at the purpose of the hearing, I think nothing highlights better the fact that we might not have a regulatory framework dialed in correctly for financial institutions than the fact that our repo market is in chaos right now, and the only way to bridge that gap is to essentially print money. Although we are not calling it quantitative easing, and it has maybe a different intent, how does it have a different effect? Mr. Quarles. I think it has a different effect because of the nature of the intervention. We are only trying to ensure that we get to that level of reserves that ensures that our administrative right, in fact, is the price of money as opposed to the-- Mr. Davidson. But rather than putting money into the system, why wouldn't you look at the regulatory framework that created the problem in the first place? And as we close in on the end of the year, many people are anticipating another surge in demand for liquidity. Is the Fed expecting that? Mr. Quarles. I do think that we need to look at the regulatory framework. I don't think that it is the only contributor, probably not even the driving contributor to what has happened. But we do need to look at it. Mr. Davidson. Thank you. My time has expired. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentlewoman from North Carolina, Ms. Adams, is recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Adams. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today. My first question is to you, Chairman Hood. In October of 2018, NCUA amended its 2015 risk-based capital rule to delay the effective date until January 1, 2020, and raise the asset threshold from $100 million to $500 million in assets. In June of 2019, the NCUA again delayed the effective date to January 1, 2022. At this point, the proposed risk-based capital standards have been postponed multiple times. So does the NCUA have a timeline for finalizing the standards within the next 2 years? Mr. Hood. Yes, ma'am. NCUA, first and foremost, the credit union system to date has a very strong net worth of over 11.39 percent. Because of that reason, ma'am, the recent NCUA board made the decision to delay implementation so the new members-- two-thirds of our board all started in April of this year. So with that being said, we are studying solutions and we are looking to provide a holistic approach to injecting capital into the credit union system. Were the aggregate net worth to date not at 11.39 percent, we would not have the comfort in taking this necessary time to study. But we do have the risk-based capital rule that is already in effect today. In fact, we have a rule that is not identical to that of the FDIC, but is comparable. So there is a risk-based capital structure in place, and when credit unions fall below the statutory cap of 7 percent, we take enforcement and corrective action. Ms. Adams. Okay. So we don't really need to be concerned about the capitalization within the credit unions? Mr. Hood. I would say that we are well-capitalized. We will continue to look for innovative and adding new tools to buttress its capital adequacy. But right now it is hovering over 11.39 percent, 400 basis points, so 4 percent above the statutory requirement. So we have time to pursue innovative options, and I hope to present them to you when I next testify. Ms. Adams. Okay. Thank you, sir. Vice Chair Quarles, in S.2155, the Fed was directed to undertake a formal study to determine if banks with less than $250 billion in assets are not systemic. Is the Fed still planning to conduct this study, and if you are not, then why not? Mr. Quarles. The reason I was looking back at my colleagues there was that I wasn't aware that there was a study requirement, and they have confirmed for me that we did not believe there was a study requirement. We are always looking at the systemic situation of the industry as a whole, but I don't think that the law required us to conduct a study. Ms. Adams. Okay. That is a fake question, I guess. So let me ask you, in terms of the loophole, in 2016, the Fed issued a report calling for the ILC loophole to be eliminated, that generally exempts ILCs from the Bank Holding Company Act. So does the Federal Reserve still support that recommendation? Mr. Quarles. We have not had cause to address that. We have not changed our official position on that. Ms. Adams. Okay. Let me move on to the CRA. I think all of us can agree that it has served as an important tool in helping meet the credit needs of our underserved communities and populations. This question is for everyone. Briefly, can you speak to how we can better align financial profit incentives and the CRA incentives to ensure that more low- to moderate- income borrowers, small businesses, and entrepreneurs can have access to affordable, prudent loan options? So if each of you can quickly-- Mr. Hood. Credit unions aren't governed by CRA, but I support all financial institutions serving people of modest means. Ms. Adams. Chair McWilliams? Ms. McWilliams. I believe we can reform the CRA to get exactly to the point you are addressing, and that is the effort I am trying to engage in to make sure that there is a greater impact on the communities that the CRA was supposed to and intended to affect. Ms. Adams. Thank you. Sir? Mr. Quarles. Yes, absolutely. I share those sentiments. We can do more and we can do it efficiently. Ms. Adams. Thank you all for your testimony and your responses. Madam Chairwoman, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Budd, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Budd. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Chairman Hood, it's great to see another North Carolinian in the room. Mr. Hood. Thank you. Mr. Budd. Vice Chair Quarles, welcome. One topic that I and others continue to be concerned about is the proper calibration of the overall capital framework. I have asked you and Chairman Powell several times about plans to update the G-SIB surcharge, given that the Fed said it would do so in the final rule in 2015. So we hope to see some progress on that in the very near future so that the U.S. can continue to level the international playing field. Chairman McWilliams, thank you to you as well for being here. I want to briefly echo the comments made earlier by my friend, Mr. Tipton from Colorado, and add my support to the FDIC to utilize its upcoming broker deposit rulemaking to make some long-overdue changes in updating how it interprets that area of the law, in particular, if the deposits are coming from an affiliate of the bank. And Vice Chair Quarles, back to you, regarding the topic of insurance, last July I sent you a letter following a dialogue that we had at a hearing very similar to this, where I asked a number of questions about the Fed's activities at the International Association of Insurance Supervisors, including for evidence from a solvency standpoint to prove it is necessary to construct a new capital requirement for U.S. insurers. In your response, you said that the Fed remains committed to engaged dialogue and pursuits of outcomes on international standards that are appropriate for U.S. insurers and their policyholders. Last month, representatives from the U.S., specifically the Department of the Treasury, the Fed, and the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, attended a meeting of the International Association of Insurance Supervisors (IAIS) in Abu Dhabi, and during the meeting, the IAIS agreed to enter a monitoring period for its global insurance capital standards, but did not formally adopt implementation. Significantly, Treasury registered their official opposition to the deal, and making it clear that the ICS, in its current form, still does not work with the U.S. State-based system of insurance regulation that has served American consumers for nearly 2 centuries, while the Fed did not register any official opposition at the same time. The Treasury position was heard loud and clear on the global stage. There is much more work to be done in my legislation to ensure any international deal must recognize our system will play an important role in this process. Vice Chair Quarles, as you indicated in your response to my letter last year, the one in July, going forward, is the Fed committed to opposing any international proposal such as the ICS that does not work with the State-based system of regulation and the policyholders that it serves? Mr. Quarles. Yes, we continue to believe that the international process has to work for the U.S. It can't be successful if it doesn't. As you know, the IAIS doesn't have any ability to impose its decisions on the United States, so it really, if it doesn't work for the U.S., it won't be implemented here, and so it really can't be effective. Mr. Budd. Just to be clear, so that I don't have any lack of clarity leaving here, you do continue to oppose, in ICS, anything that doesn't serve the State-based system of regulation? Mr. Quarles. Yes. We believe that the international standard has to accommodate the U.S. system. Mr. Budd. Thank you very much. Madam Chairwoman, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Garcia, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And thank you to all the panelists for being here today. I want to address my first questions to the Federal Reserve and the FDIC. Both the Federal Reserve and the FDIC approved the merger between BB&T and SunTrust on November 19th, but the Fed simultaneously issued a consent order against SunTrust for unfair and deceptive practices. SunTrust repaid $8.8 million in fees that they had charged customers for those misleading practices, but the practice of misleading consumers was not exactly out of character for either bank. SunTrust and BB&T ranked 3rd and 12th, respectively, in the most banking-related consumer complaints last year. Did the Fed and the FDIC investigate those complaints in the process of reviewing the merger proposal? Ms. McWilliams. Are you referring to the--I'm sorry, which customer database? I want to make sure I understand your question correctly. Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Did you investigate those practices when they came forward with their merger proposal? Ms. McWilliams. We looked at it generally. We are a primary regulator for BB&T, at the FDIC, and we have extensively-- Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Did you investigate those things? Ms. McWilliams. If you can just repeat, what's the database or the survey? I don't want to-- Mr. Garcia of Illinois. I didn't mention a database. I mentioned banking-related consumer complaints against those two entities. Ms. McWilliams. To the extent that we get consumer complaints about our regulated entities, including BB&T, we do investigate. Mr. Garcia of Illinois. So you did investigate those? Is that within the purview of what you do? Ms. McWilliams. I would assume we did, because without a list and understanding, did these complaints come through the BB&T-- Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Governor Quarles? Mr. Quarles. Yes. We certainly took into account consumer complaints and looked into them. We have to take the convenience and needs of the-- Mr. Garcia of Illinois. So, that is a yes? Okay. I think that poor consumer compliance records of banks seeking to merge should be a factor in whether big banks are allowed to get bigger. I don't want to reward bad behavior. If the Fed and the FDIC are going to scrutinize the consumer protection implications of mergers, I think that the CFPB should be given a formal say in the bank merger review process. That is why I announced today that I am introducing the Bank Merger Review Modernization Act, which strengthens the process for reviewing bank mergers and gives consumers a voice in whether they are approved. Governor Quarles, is it fair to say, in that your experience with bank mergers is quite extensive--a 1997 article in the International Financial Law Review described your work at Davis Polk as follows, ``He advises domestic and foreign banks and bank holding companies on a broad variety of matters, including mergers and acquisitions. He has been active in advising bank holding companies and security firms in proposed business combinations, including the merger of Morgan Stanley with Dean Witter, Discover JPMorgan's investment in the American Century mutual fund company, and Bank of America's purchase of Robertson Stevens.'' You also worked on Deutsche Bank's acquisition of Bankers Trust and JPMorgan's merger with Chase Manhattan. This past weekend, the New York Times, as I think was mentioned previously, did a profile of you, and noted that you have met 22 times with lawyers from your former employer, Davis Polk, since October of 2017. Is it possible for you to be a neutral arbiter when it comes to big bank mergers? Mr. Quarles. Well, as you note, you were quoting from something from 1997, which is almost a quarter of a century ago. It has been 20 years since I had anything to do with Davis Polk. I do think that I have a lot of expertise in the area, but I have no particular-- Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Do you feel that you are a neutral arbiter? Mr. Quarles. Absolutely. Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Have prospective bank mergers been a topic of discussion during any of your meetings with Davis Polk? Mr. Quarles. Prospective bank mergers. I can't think of any, but if there were, it would be confidential supervisory information (CSI). So, maybe it's confidential supervisory information for me to say that I can't think of any, but I can't think of any. Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Thank you. My time is about up, so I yield back, Madam Chairwoman. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Gonzalez, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for holding this important hearing, and thank you to our panel for your contributions and your service. I want to start with Vice Chairman Quarles and Chairman McWilliams. I sent both the Federal Reserve and the FDIC a letter this week about the importance of establishing a regulatory framework that promotes investment opportunities in startups and small businesses. I know the Volcker regulators are considering revisions to the covered funds portion of the Volcker Rule, and I just want to encourage you, as part of that process, to allow banks to sponsor or invest in long-term and/ or venture capital funds that I believe are an important source of funding for companies seeking to grow. As someone who previously ran a startup in Silicon Valley, which is awash with private capital, I think it is important for companies that need capital but aren't located in capital- rich centers like that, especially States like mine and regions like mine, in northeast Ohio, I want them to have as many opportunities as humanly possible, and I think that vision is shared. And so I guess my first question to both of you would be, as you are looking through this, how do you think about the covered fund definition and the ability for banks to be able to provide this? Mr. Quarles. We are looking at ways to try to ensure that we effect the purposes of the statute, but in a way that allows the greatest amount of financing for the real economy, as is consistent with the purposes of the statute. I think there are amendments that we can make that will do that. They are under active discussion currently, and we will propose them and get a lot of comments on them, so I don't want to prejudge where that is going. But the considerations that you are raising are considerations that are on the table for us. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. Ms. McWilliams, same answer? Yes or no? Ms. McWilliams. Likewise. And I can also tell you, from my experience in Silicon Valley, working with startups, that capital investment is crucial. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. It is unbelievable, yes. Ms. McWilliams. Especially in the earliest stages. And we are cognizant of the ability of small businesses to create opportunities in America. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. And then back to Mr. Quarles, with the SOFR transition that is coming, does the Fed support an extension of LIBOR beyond 2021 for existing contracts? Not for new ones, but for existing contracts that are already out there? Mr. Quarles. The issue is, and there has been some confusion about it, is that it is not a question of the regulators prohibiting LIBOR beyond the end of 2021 for existing contracts, but the risk that it simply won't be available, because the banks that participate in the production of LIBOR have indicated that they may be unwilling to continue participating. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. But if it is available, would you support it? Mr. Quarles. We would have to consider what that meant, how it was being produced, how many banks had dropped out, how arbitrary was it then, given the remaining production process. But in connection with your question, the issue of how we handle the legacy contracts, the existing contracts, is a big one, and we are wrestling with an efficient way to do that, that ideally would not require the renegotiating of millions of contracts. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. Yes. I think that would be chaotic, to put it lightly. And then one concern I also hear with SOFR is it could be procyclical, just due to the nature of SOFR itself. Do you believe in the creation of credit-sensitive overlays to SOFR or an alternative rate with credit spreads? Mr. Quarles. I think that is a question that we ought to examine more than we have. I don't have a view, ultimately, as to whether that is something that ought to be there, but I do think that it deserves more examination than we have given it. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. Thank you. And then with my final question, I want to focus on the repo market, which has been mentioned a little bit. I have heard--and I don't mean this as a criticism, but I am just sharing my view--a lot of different explanations of kind of, yes, it might be that, it might be this, we are not entirely sure. Do you have a sense that the Fed has a good grasp of what exactly has happened, what the driving factors are, and how we can correct it going forward? Mr. Quarles. I do think we have a good grasp on what the driving factors have been. I think that it is a complex question. I don't think that it is an easy answer to say this was the factor, or here are the two factors. But I do think we have a good grasp on the various factors that contributed, and I think we have a good grasp on the measures to be taken to address them, both the short-term measures and the longer-term measures, and all of them are under consideration at the Fed. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. Thank you. And I guess with my final few seconds, I would just encourage you to share that with us, because right now it feels like we are more in the dark than I think is appropriate, given our role. Thank you, and I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Green. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I thank the witnesses for appearing as well, and I am pleased to announce that I have in my hands a statement from the CFPB. It is styled, ``Federal Regulators Issue Joint Statement on the Use of Alternative Data in Credit Underwriting.'' And the agencies would include the three that are here, and it includes five of the regulatory agencies. My assumption is that some considerable amount of thought went into this decision. Is that a fair statement, when you issue a joint statement that considerable thought goes into it? If you agree just raise your hand, please. [Show of hands.] Mr. Green. Okay. All agree. Let the record reflect that all agree. And my assumption is that you would not make this statement unless you concluded it was absolutely something that could be of benefit to our economy, to consumers. Is that a fair statement? If so, would you kindly raise your hand. [Show of hands.] Mr. Green. All seem to agree. I would like to read the last sentence. In fact, I will read just a portion of it. It is a rather long sentence, but I would like to read a portion of the last sentence in the statement. It indicates that in doing this, it might improve the speed and accuracy of credit decisions and it may help firms evaluate creditworthiness of consumers who currently may not obtain credit in the mainstream credit system. Strong statement. So, let's have our person who is representing NCUA, could you give some indication please, sir, as to how this will do what I have just read, that you have published? Mr. Hood. Yes, sir. We are really hoping to bring additional individuals into the mainstream economy by looking at alternative means of credit such as how do they pay their bills, utility, telephone payments. These are just other options that it is going to take to give individuals an opportunity to demonstrate their ability to repay. So in signing onto that, we really want to make sure that we are helping people who are low to moderate income. There are many folks who are what we would call credit invisible. This is one of the many tools, and one of many I hope to come that would, again, enhance financial access and services to people who have never been a part of the mainline economy. Mr. Green. Thank you. If you concur with what was just said, would you raise your hand, please? Ms. McWilliams. With a caveat. Mr. Green. With a caveat? Okay. Ms. McWilliams. The caveat is that we have 24.2 million unbanked and underbanked households in the United States, and I believe it is 8.4 million who are unbanked. And a lot of these householders are, frankly, first-generation immigrants with no credit history and people who live in low- and moderate-income areas, a lot of minorities. And for them, to the extent that they don't have credit established, according to the traditional understanding of credit underwriting criteria, we would like to be able to allow companies to extend credit to them based on their transactions such as cell phone bills and utility bills, but our existing guidance in place made it questionable exactly how entities would engage in that type of extension of credit. So I believe this is an issue that has a broad economic impact, but I also believe it is an issue that is an equalizer for a number of people who have not been able to obtain traditional credit. Mr. Green. If you agree with what was just said, would you kindly raise your hands, please? [Show of hands.] Mr. Green. I assume you agree with your statement, so let the record reflect that all agree with the statement that was just made. Given that you all agree, and you seem to indicate that this will have some positive impact on the economy, does anyone have any thought as to what this impact might be? This might be a question for the Fed. I am not sure. You do a lot of paperwork at the Fed where you analyze data. Do you have any thoughts please, sir? Mr. Quarles. We do a lot of research, and I don't have that research at hand, but we would be glad to provide you any work that we have done on the quantification of that. Mr. Green. In a broad sense, would you think that this could have a positive impact on the economy overall? Mr. Quarles. Absolutely. Mr. Green. Thank you very much. I bring this up because we passed a bill out of committee, H.R. 123, that addresses this additional credit scoring, alternative additional credit scoring. We have to go with ``alternative additional'' because of the confusion with ``alternative,'' some people thinking that it might replace the traditional system. And I am pleased that you have come to this conclusion, and I am hopeful that we will be able to get this bill to the Floor. Thank you, and I will yield back the balance of my time. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Riggleman, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Riggleman. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you all for being here. I want to first echo the sentiments of my colleague, Mr. Barr, regarding the hemp statement issued yesterday. I had some questions for you, Chair McWilliams, but I will follow up in writing, because after hearing Ms. Pressley's questions on FedNow, I want to spend my time focused on that issue. Ms. McWilliams. Thank you. Mr. Riggleman. Thank you, ma'am. [laughter] Mr. Riggleman. I am not quite sure. That is a good thank you, though. [laughter] Mr. Riggleman. Vice Chairman Quarles, you were the lone dissenter at the vote in August to proceed with the development of FedNow, and I understand why you voted that way at that time. I introduced a bill that will require the Fed to adhere to its own policy statement, including cost recovery. When will we know the cost, as far as you can tell, Vice Chairman Quarles? Mr. Quarles. We obviously had estimates of the costs that were considered as part of the approval. We would necessarily need that because the ability to recover the cost is a statutory requirement. Mr. Riggleman. Yes. Mr. Quarles. And we believe that we can recover the costs. Mr. Riggleman. And do we know what that cost is right now? Mr. Quarles. I can't tell you off the top of my head, but we do have estimates of it. Mr. Riggleman. Okay. Thank you. I would love to see that. And when do you expect that cost recovery will be achieved? Mr. Quarles. It would only be over an extended period of time. I think the law requires 10 years, doesn't it? It is long term, but it would be over a long period of time. Mr. Riggleman. A long period of time? Thank you for that. And I will have more questions on that later, but we have this 5-minute beautiful thing here. So on November 20th, in the FAQ published by the Fed, your Agency states, ``The board does not have plenary authority to regulate payments.'' What does that mean exactly? Mr. Quarles. It means that we don't have direct regulatory authority. Among the concerns that were raised with the private sector system was that they could have discriminatory pricing. They could have pricing that disadvantaged some. And while they had said that they would not do that, that they would have one price for all, the Federal Reserve does not have the direct regulatory authority to address that if, in fact, they change their minds. That is what that meant. Mr. Riggleman. Thank you. And as proposed by your Agency, FedNow will be operational by 2024, give or take. Is that correct? Mr. Quarles. Give or take. Mr. Riggleman. Give or take. Some of my colleagues have introduced legislation that would dramatically expedite that service despite the current operational and functional existence of a private market platform. If Congress arbitrarily, without understanding, required the Fed to move ahead of its own timeline, what would be the effects, particularly on consumers and markets, as we went forward with that? Mr. Quarles. I would be concerned about a significant acceleration just because of the difficulty of execution. It is a very, very big project. I am not sure that the laws of physics would actually allow its acceleration very much from what has been proposed. Mr. Riggleman. Yes, sir. I love the law of physics, and we are looking at the proposed regulation as far as the arbitrary timeline. Do you still think 2024 is a valid date for execution of FedNow? Mr. Quarles. Yes, I think that is reasonable. Mr. Riggleman. Reasonable? Here are the issues and why I am asking these questions. On innovation--and my experience has taught me, and that has really been my background is research and development or quick reaction capabilities, things of that nature, the Department of Defense has taught me that if you want to solidify a monopoly or duopoly, then you should have the Federal Government get involved. And in the payment space, RTP is new, but it is likely not the ultimate or final development. So how do you see the Fed's involvement as potentially stifling innovation and even maybe hurting consumers as we go forward? Mr. Quarles. I think that it will be a task that we will have to ensure that it doesn't do that. As you have noted, innovation here is very rapid, and while I do have concerns, they ended up not being shared by my colleagues on the board, that we would not be able to keep up with the innovation. The fact that the Federal Reserve was implementing something on the basis of current technology could, in fact, be outdated by the time that we were completed with it, that is a task that we will have to address. The Federal Reserve will devote resources to ensuring that we try to address that, and my colleagues were convinced that we could. Mr. Riggleman. Yes, and that is why I found it interesting, Vice Chairman. We talked about the initial cost based on the report and what that would cost. Is there any costing on the sustainment cost of keeping up with technology after the initial implementation of FedNow? Mr. Quarles. With respect to all of that, we will be required to recover the costs under the law, and so as we would make amendments to that rapid payment system in the same way as we make additions or refinements, improvements to the current payment system that we provide, we will recover the cost of those investments. Mr. Riggleman. Thank you so much, and thanks for your time. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Lawson, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Lawson. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I welcome the witnesses to the committee. I was happy to learn from your discussion about what the institutions are doing to provide credit to those who are underbanked, which I think has been very successful. Unfortunately, many people are turning to alternative sources of borrowing, including payday loans, in order to get access to capital when they are turned away from banks, sometimes including credit unions. Ms. McWilliams, can you talk more about the payday alternative loans and how this has helped bring more people into the banking sector? Ms. McWilliams. I believe there is an opportunity for banks to engage more in the small-dollar lending space. And as was mentioned previously, there is a Federal Reserve study that says that a large percentage of the population, about 40 percent, do not have $400 every month for emergencies. And unfortunately, we don't have a lot of banks in the small-dollar space, and the consumers are now going through alternative channels for those products. We have ample consumer protection laws at the banks and the bank regulatory agencies. And, frankly, I would like to see some of those products return to banks where we can make sure that the consumers are protected. I also think that there is a lot of dichotomy in the Federal regulatory framework with respect to small-dollar loans. From the FDIC, there is a 2013 guidance. There is a bulletin from the OCC, from 2017. There are supervisory letters from the Federal Reserve. There is a rulemaking at the CFPB. They are not all, quite frankly, synchronized, and I think there is an opportunity for us to synchronize these rules to make sure that consumers who need small-dollar credit and are in dire need of responsible small-dollar credit can do so through banks, which we regulate. Mr. Lawson. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Hood, I have probably been a member of credit unions for some 40 years, I guess, since I first started off. In the area I am in, in the capital city, there are a lot of credit unions and some small banks. But there have been more concerns since I have been up here in Congress from some of the smaller banks about the growth of credit unions. And I know that when you are in a government town, a university town and so forth, where I am, you don't really think about that because people want to have access to capital. Do you feel that the concern from the smaller banks is going to continue to cause more regulations to be put on credit unions? Mr. Hood. I think that the important thing is that there are banks and credit unions that are all competing in today's dynamic marketplace where at the end of the day, it is the end user, whether it is a credit union member or a bank customer, they are getting access to regulated, affordable financial services. I would much rather have banks and credit unions continuing to grow in today's economy because we know what happens if that doesn't occur. Then, it leaves all of these communities that are underserved vulnerable to pernicious payday lenders. So I don't want to pit banks versus credit unions. I want to say aye, and the credit unions, they are growing the credit unions because of members wanting to have institutions where they can get affordable capital. So when I made my opening statement this morning, credit unions now serve a third of the American public, and I think that is because of their commitment to providing access. Mr. Lawson. That is a very good answer, and my next question would be, before my time runs out, credit unions now take members from all over. Should there be any limitation on the memberships outside of the institutions that they are formulated on? Mr. Hood. That is an area that we, first of all, we do have field of membership restrictions. No matter which credit union one joins, almost everyone in this room can join a credit union, but just not the same one because of those field of membership restrictions. So if there is a particular question you have in mind, I would be happy to sit down with you. But, no, the credit unions' models were based on, for instance, you would have a plant or you would have a company. Now, as credit unions and sometimes in some instances companies have left markets, well, then those credit unions will apply for a community charter and things of that nature. So at the end of the day, credit unions still are governed by membership restrictions. Mr. Lawson. Should you be kept at a certain limit of the number of memberships that you could have? Mr. Hood. I think, sir, that is a free market decision, and I think that is up to the credit union and the member of that credit union. But, again, as long as that member has the field of membership restrictions in mind, then as a regulator, I can't impose that. I can only ensure the safety and soundness of the credit union system and the shared insurance fund that guarantees the deposits. Mr. Lawson. But after you go to a certain level, the tax implication or the tax exemption that you have, how does that affect you? Mr. Hood. Oh, you are talking about the tax-exempt status of the credit unions in terms of their size. Well, sir, I, again, am looking at the safety and soundness. Regardless of whether you are a million-dollar credit union or a $100 billion credit union, it is up to Congress to determine whether or not credit unions maintain their tax-exempt status. Mr. Lawson. Okay. With that, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Hollingsworth, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Hollingsworth. Mr. Quarles, I really appreciate you being here. As you and I have talked about many times over the past couple of years, CCAR is really important to me in ensuring that we revise and become more transparent with some of the stress capital buffer rules. And I was delighted to hear earlier today, I think in response to Mrs. Wagner's question, you say that you are still aiming to have that done in time for next year's stress test cycle. I wondered if you would start kind of daisy row today how we get there because you alluded to, I think, in your answer to her question as well about how challenging the timeline might be to do so, but it still felt like it was reasonable. Can you kind of walk us through, what does the comment period look like? How long does it take to distill that into a rule? How long does it take to get that rule out so that there's some transparency in it beforehand given these large institutions are relying a lot on that test, and with some of their capital planning thereafter, we want to make sure that they get adequate time beforehand to understand what that test looked like? Mr. Quarles. In order for it to be effective, at least for the next cycle, at least some elements of it would have to go final as opposed to being re-proposed. Mr. Hollingsworth. Correct. Mr. Quarles. And we have the ability to do that on the basis of the comments we have received for the proposal that is out there currently. Over the course of the next several weeks, we can do that. We haven't determined if that is the right approach, which is why I say we can do it, and it is still our aim to do it, but we haven't finally decided if that is our approach. Mr. Hollingsworth. When do you expect to make that decision? I guess what I am looking for is, when can I follow up? When can other members of the committee, those who have a significant stake in this, when can we follow up and say, okay, this was the next point at which we expected a decision, the next point at which we would expect a step taken by the Fed in order to reach that outcome by that date certain? When is the next step we can expect that we could follow up and find out whether that step was taken? Mr. Quarles. Whether we go final will be clear at the time we go final. I think we have about another month if we were to take that view. Mr. Hollingsworth. Okay. And the decision would have to be made before than obviously in order to lay that out, right? Mr. Quarles. Right. Mr. Hollingsworth. Okay. So it would be reasonable if we followed up within the next couple of weeks, to ask whether a decision was made to go forward with that and whether steps are in place to be able to forward with that? Mr. Quarles. Certainly. Mr. Hollingsworth. I just believe that this is a really important aspect of what I hear from large institutions today, more transparency in this process, more clarity in this process so that they can plan long term their own capital. And hopefully, that continues to support the economy overall, so I appreciate that answer. Mr. Hood, you and I had a great conversation a couple of weeks ago as we talked about how I have had some institutions that have come into the office concerned about our recent trend of credit unions purchasing smaller banks. But at the same time, I have had some great Hoosiers who have come into the office and said, were it not for that acquisition of a bank by a credit union, my local branch probably wouldn't be here. That community wouldn't be served by that. And I felt like, frankly, you really articulated so well in that call how you think about this, how you approach this, and the rubric by which you are discerning those. I wonder if, in a minute-and-a-half, you might give us all a preview and a review of how you think about this. Mr. Hood. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question, and thank you for our recent call. Yes, to date, there have been 32 credit unions that have required bank assets, 32 over the past 7 years, or actually since 2013, whereas there have been roughly 250 bank-on-bank acquisitions just over the past year alone. I would like to note for the record that these are voluntary market-based transactions. At the end of the day, it is the FDIC and the NCUA who must approve these transactions. In approving those transactions, we at NCUA are going to look to ensure that the bank is going to have the members that could qualify for the membership. We are also going to ensure that other statutes of the Federal Credit Union Act are implemented, such as the fact that business lending is capped at 12.25 percent of assets, and also credit unions are not allowed to have anything other than retained earnings for their capital. The credit unions are not going to be able to have any of the stock that an acquired institution would have had. Also, I would like to note that in many of these areas, as you noted in your introduction, if it weren't for credit unions acquiring some of these banks, the community would be left without a financial institution. It would leave them vulnerable to, again, pernicious payday lenders. I also would like to note that at the end of the day, the bank does get to choose or select who that acquiring entity is, and, again, let's note, dual approval. Both the FDIC and the NCUA approve these, and they are not happening arbitrarily and capriciously. Mr. Hollingsworth. Right. I think that is important to remember, and I really appreciate that. I knew your comments would help give some comfort to those who think this is happening in the absence of oversight, so I really appreciate your thoughtfulness about that. Mr. Hood. And we have had also a bank that has acquired a credit union. Mr. Hollingsworth. Fair enough, and I will follow up with you, Mr. Quarles, as well. Thank you so much for your time. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Utah, Mr. McAdams, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. McAdams. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Chair McWilliams, previously when you testified before this committee, I asked about whether the FDIC had the authority needed to properly regulate and oversee ILCs. And you testified that you believed that the FDIC did indeed have all the authority it needed to regulate ILCs and to ensure that they operate in a safe and sound manner. Do you still agree with that statement? Ms. McWilliams. I do. I believe that Congress gave us ample authority to supervise the ILCs, yes. Mr. McAdams. Thank you. And you also stated that you would not approve an ILC application for deposit insurance if you believed that it would put the insurance fund or the financial system at risk. Since that time, the topic of ILCs has gotten a lot of press and legislative attention with some calling to effectively end the ILC charter as we know it. Some of what I hear in support of ending the ILC charter is that ILCs are unregulated and pose a significant risk to the U.S. financial system. I would like to say that I strongly disagree with both of those points, and I would like to use a bit of my time to follow up on them. My State is home to many ILCs, and in our experience, these institutions have proven to be remarkably safe and well-regulated. First, in regards to the claim of ILCs being unregulated because their parent companies are not subject to the Bank Holding Company Act, isn't it correct that the FDIC has authority to regulate the relationship and transactions between the parent company and the ILC to ensure that the ILC and our financial system remain safe? Ms. McWilliams. In fact, we are actually able to require the so-called CULMA agreement, which is an agreement that provides for minimal capital and liquidity standards that the parent would be obligated to bestow upon the ILC to ensure that the ILC is safe and sound. Mr. McAdams. Right, and I would also add that the FDIC has authority to issue cease-and-desist orders. The bank-centric model requires the bank to have an independent board and management. Section 23(a) and 23(b) sets terms around the transactions, et cetera. Do all of these provide the FDIC with adequate authority over those relationships and transactions, in your view? Ms. McWilliams. On Sections 22 and 23, I would have to defer to the Fed. But Congress gave us ample authority to regulate the ILCs, and I certainly have staff I am paying to regulate the ILCs. [laughter] Ms. McWilliams. So if we are not regulating them adequately, I think some people are getting a lot of money for not doing their job, but that is not the case. We have a lot of experience recognizing the ILCs, and unless Congress decides to treat ILCs otherwise, we will continue under the existing congressional authorities. Mr. McAdams. Thank you. And second, regarding the risk posed by ILCs to the U.S. financial system, for decades, ILCs have proven to be some of the safest and most stable banks in the nation. Can you tell me how ILCs compare to most other banks in the capital that they hold and in their failure rates over the past 30 years? Ms. McWilliams. They are generally better capitalized than banks, and we don't have that many ILCs, frankly, so it is a limited universe of entities we are talking about. They are all capitalized. It is our experience that they are generally well- managed. Again, it depends on an institution-by-institution basis, but we have not experienced issues with the ILCs. Mr. McAdams. Thank you. That is my understanding as well. Moving to a different topic, I want to discuss CRA, and with respect to the Community Reinvestment Act, more of a statement than a question. I have spoken with you all previously about the need to preserve the spirit and the intent of the CRA to benefit low- and middle-income communities and individuals, while also updating the CRA for a 21st Century financial system. I understand that the OCC and the FDIC may be moving forward on a proposal without current buy-in from the Fed, and I do have concerns about this not being a unified rulemaking. It is one thing for financial institutions to comply with the CRA regulations, but CRA also involves numerous community partners, as I know as a former mayor myself, many of which don't have the resources or time to understand potentially conflicting CRA regulations. So I would urge all of the agencies to come together on a single proposal that strengthens and modernizes CRA. And additionally, I share many of the concerns that my colleagues have expressed with respect to CECL and the impact that it may have on credit availability, in addition to the compliance requirements for financial institutions. Moving on to another topic, Vice Chair Quarles, the Federal Reserve has been contemplating, as my colleague, Mr. Hollingsworth raised, the stress capital buffer for some time now with the proposal released in 2018, more than a year-and-a- half ago. Ensuring that we have rigorous stress tests and appropriate capital levels is important, so I just want to reiterate that I share my colleague, Mr. Hollingsworth's, concern and goals about achieving this and having this completed by 2020. And lastly, Mr. Quarles, it looks like I am about of time, so I will yield back. I may have some additional questions for the record, including on the Agency's future work on covered funds and fund structures. So thank you, and I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentlewoman from California, Ms. Porter, is recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Porter. Thank you. Chairwoman McWilliams, you told Mr. Lawson, my colleague, that you want to return small-dollar lending to banks. Were you referring to the FDIC's looking the other way when FDIC-supervised banks are helping predatory lenders charge up to 160 percent in 26 States and the District of Columbia, where that rate is legal? Ms. McWilliams. No. Ms. Porter. Are you aware of this practice? Ms. McWilliams. I am aware of some examples of the interest rates that you cited. Ms. Porter. Are you aware that FDIC banks that you supervise are engaged in rent-a-bank schemes that are allowing predatory lenders to make loans with those interest rates in States that have chosen through the democratic process to prohibit those rates? Ms. McWilliams. I am aware of partnerships that banks have created with entities that are offering those loans, and I am also aware of the enforcement action that we engage in specifically in institutions that do so in a manner that is not consistent with consumer protection or Federal laws. Ms. Porter. What is consistent with consumer protection about lending at a rate that is prohibited under State law? Ms. McWilliams. The rates are set by State law. Where we look at consumer protection, as you all know, is, are there issues with fair lending practices? Are there issues with unfair and deceptive practices-- Ms. Porter. Pardon me, Chairwoman. I think I didn't make myself clear. Today, FinWise Bank and Republic Bank are engaged in partnerships with entities, like OppLoans and RISE/Elevate. And what they are doing is making loans at rates like 160 percent APR in States that have banned that rate. How is it consistent with the FDIC's supervision of consumer protection rules to allow these State-chartered, FDIC-supervised institutions to engage in these partnerships that evade State law, democratically-passed State law regulations on interest rates? Ms. McWilliams. We don't regulate State interest rate caps or what is permissible or usury under State law, and I can only say this because we did have an enforcement action against one of the entities you mentioned. It is a public enforcement action--you can find it on our website--where we thought that their consumer compliance record was not, frankly, of the expectations and qualities we have of our supervised entities. Ms. Porter. And so are you aware of statements made on earnings calls by lenders in California in the wake of California's new lending law? Several payday lenders announced on their earnings calls that they plan to use rent-a-bank schemes to evade California's new law that outlaws 100 to 200 percent installment loans. Ms. McWilliams. I am not, and I, frankly, don't listen to payday lenders' investors calls. I just don't have the time. I can tell you that States actually have an opportunity to opt out of the ability of out-of-State entities to provide interest rates that are prohibited in that State, and that is up to States to decide. Congress gave the States that authority, and it is, frankly, implemented in Section 27(a) of the FDI Act. Ms. Porter. Okay. Thank you. I wanted to follow up on what my colleague, Mr. McAdams, was asking about with regard to the Community Reinvestment Act. I am confused. I read the statement of Mr. Otting on November 20th when he announced that the Fed is not going to participate in the CRA modernization effort. I then read the statement of the Federal Reserve spokesperson. I am confused. Who here, and just feel free to raise your hand, who here is the good guy? [Hands raised.] [laughter] Ms. Porter. Okay. Now, you understand that you two are on different sides of this, so I am concerned that-- Ms. McWilliams. Not necessarily. Ms. Porter. I am pretty knowledgeable about the CRA, and I can't tell which one of you is in favor of which proposal. I share what Mr. McAdams said about, why is this coming unraveled. I am very concerned that it isn't a joint rulemaking, but I can't even tell which of you I should be sending a letter to, to complain. And I think this obfuscation is really unhelpful to the American people who need to be engaged in the CRA process. Mr. Quarles? Mr. Quarles. I think it is inaccurate that we are on opposite sides. We have been pursuing a joint rulemaking, and the objective will continue to be at the end of the day, we will have final joint rule among the three agencies. Ms. Porter. Okay. If I'm not mistaken, Comptroller Otting, who is not here today, of course, announced that the Fed will not participate in the CRA modernization. Are you contradicting that? Mr. Quarles. Fortunately, my time is up. [laughter] Chairwoman Waters. Do you yield back the balance of your time? Ms. McWilliams. Oh, there is time, right? No, there isn't. Actually she is over, 19 seconds over. Chairwoman Waters. We have indicated that you may answer questions in writing and send your responses to any of our Members who have not had the opportunity to have them answered today. I would like to thank our distinguished witnesses for their testimony today. The Chair notes that some Members may have additional questions for this panel, which they may wish to submit in writing. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 5 legislative days for Members to submit written questions to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. Also, without objection, Members will have 5 legislative days to submit extraneous materials to the Chair for inclusion in the record. This hearing is now adjourned. [Whereupon, at 1:35 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X December 4, 2019 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]