    [House Hearing, 116 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                          THE FUTURE OF WORK: ENSURING
                          WORKERS ARE COMPETITIVE IN A
                            RAPIDLY CHANGING ECONOMY

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

           SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT

                             COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION
                                   AND LABOR
                         U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

               HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, DECEMBER 18, 2019

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 116-49

                                   __________

          Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor

    		[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Available via the: https://edlabor.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov

    				________

    		     U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    42-483 			     WASHINGTON : 2021

                        COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR

                 ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman

    Susan A. Davis, California           Virginia Foxx, North Carolina,
    Raul M. Grijalva, Arizona            Ranking Member
    Joe Courtney, Connecticut            David P. Roe, Tennessee
    Marcia L. Fudge, Ohio                Glenn Thompson, Pennsylvania
    Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan,      Tim Walberg, Michigan
      Northern Mariana Islands           Brett Guthrie, Kentucky
    Frederica S. Wilson, Florida         Bradley Byrne, Alabama
    Suzanne Bonamici, Oregon             Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin
    Mark Takano, California              Elise M. Stefanik, New York
    Alma S. Adams, North Carolina        Rick W. Allen, Georgia
    Mark DeSaulnier, California          Lloyd Smucker, Pennsylvania
    Donald Norcross, New Jersey          Jim Banks, Indiana
    Pramila Jayapal, Washington          Mark Walker, North Carolina
    Joseph D. Morelle, New York          James Comer, Kentucky
    Susan Wild, Pennsylvania             Ben Cline, Virginia
    Josh Harder, California              Russ Fulcher, Idaho
    Lucy McBath, Georgia                 Van Taylor, Texas
    Kim Schrier, Washington              Steve Watkins, Kansas
    Lauren Underwood, Illinois           Ron Wright, Texas
    Jahana Hayes, Connecticut            Daniel Meuser, Pennsylvania
    Donna E. Shalala, Florida            Dusty Johnson, South Dakota
    Andy Levin, Michigan*                Fred Keller, Pennsylvania
    Ilhan Omar, Minnesota                Gregory F. Murphy, North Carolina
    David J. Trone, Maryland
    Haley M. Stevens, Michigan
    Susie Lee, Nevada
    Lori Trahan, Massachusetts
    Joaquin Castro, Texas
    * Vice-Chair

                       Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director
                     Brandon Renz, Minority Staff Director
                                     ------

           SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT

                     SUSAN A. DAVIS, California, Chairwoman

    Joe Courtney, Connecticut            Lloyd Smucker, Pennsylvania,
    Mark Takano, California                Ranking Member
    Pramila Jayapal, Washington          Brett Guthrie, Kentucky
    Josh Harder, California              Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin
    Andy Levin, Michigan                 Elise Stefanik, New York
    Ilhan Omar, Minnesota                Jim Banks, Indiana
    David Trone, Maryland                Mark Walker, North Carolina
    Susie Lee, Nevada                    James Comer, Kentucky
    Lori Trahan, Massachusetts           Ben Cline, Virginia
    Joaquin Castro, Texas                Russ Fulcher, Idaho
    Raul M. Grijalva, Arizona            Steve C. Watkins, Jr., Kansas
    Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan,      Dan Meuser, Pennsylvania
      Northern Mariana Islands           Gregory F. Murphy, North Carolina
    Suzanne Bonamici, Oregon
    Alma S. Adams, North Carolina
    Donald Norcross, New Jersey
                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

    Hearing held on December 18, 2019................................     1

    Statement of Members:
        Davis, Hon. Susan A., Chairwoman, Subcommittee on Higher
          Education and Workforce Investment.........................     1
            Prepared statement of....................................     4
        Smucker, Hon. Lloyd, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Higher
          Education and Workforce Investment.........................     5
            Prepared statement of....................................     6

    Statement of Witnesses:
        Gattman, Ms. Nova, Deputy Director for External Affairs,
          Workforce Training and Education Coordinating Board,
          Olympia, WA................................................    26
            Prepared statement of....................................    28
        Harris, Mr. Seth D., J.D., Visiting Professor, Cornell
          Institute for Public Affairs, SE, Suite 310, Washington,
          D.C........................................................     8
            Prepared statement of....................................    10
        Markell, Mr. Brad, Executive Director, AFL-CIO Working for
          America Institute, Washington, D.C.........................    61
            Prepared statement of....................................    63
        Paretti, Mr. James A., Jr., Shareholder, Littler Mendelson
          P.C., Treasurer, Emma Coalition Washington, D.C............    41
            Prepared statement of....................................    44

    Additional Submissions:
        Jayapal, Hon. Pramila, a Representative in Congress from the
          State of Washington:
            Report: Domestic Workers Bill: A Model for Tomorrow's
              Workforce..............................................    82
            Link: Future of Work Task Force 2019 Policy Report.......    99
        Courtney, Hon. Joe, a Representative in Congress from the
          State of Connecticut:
            Sec. 4013 Extending Federal Pell Grant Eligibility of
              Certain Short-Term Programs............................   102

                          THE FUTURE OF WORK: ENSURING

                          WORKERS ARE COMPETITIVE IN A

                            RAPIDLY CHANGING ECONOMY

                                  ----------

                          Wednesday, December 18, 2019

                           House of Representatives,

                        Subcommittee on Higher Education

                           and Workforce Investment,

                       Committee on Education and Labor,

                                Washington, D.C.

                                  ----------

        The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:18 a.m. p.m.,
    in Room 2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Susan Davis
    [chairwoman of the subcommittee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Davis, Courtney, Takano, Jayapal,
    Harder, Levin, Omar, Trone, Lee, Bonamici, Adams, Norcross,
    Scott (ex officio), Smucker, Guthrie, Grothman, Stefanik,
    Banks, Walker, Comer, Watkins, Meuser, and Foxx (ex officio).
        Staff Present: Ilana Brunner, General Counsel, Health and
    Labor; Emma Eatman, Press Assistant; Eli Hovland, Staff
    Assistant; Jaria Martin, Clerk/Special Assistant to the Staff
    Director; Katie McClelland, Professional Staff; Richard Miller,
    Director of Labor Policy; Max Moore, Office Aide; Banyon
    Vassar, Deputy Director of Information Technology; Rachel West,
    Senior Economic Policy Advisor; Courtney Butcher, Minority
    Director of Member Services and Coalitions; Akash Chougule,
    Minority Professional Staff Member; Dean Johnson, Minority
    Staff Assistant; Amy Raaf Jones, Minority Director of Education
    and Human Resources Policy; Hannah Matesic, Minority Director
    of Operations; Audra McGeorge, Minority Communications
    Director; Jake Middlebrooks, Minority Professional Staff
    Member; Carlton Norwood, Minority Press Secretary; Chance
    Russell, Minority Legislative Assistant; and Mandy Schaumburg,
    Minority Chief Counsel and Deputy Director of Education Policy.
        Chairwoman Davis. The Committee on Education and Labor will
    come to order.
        We want to welcome everyone this morning. Thank you so much
    for being here.
        I note that a quorum is present.
        The committee is meeting today for the last hearing of the
    decade to receive testimony on The Future of Work: Ensuring
    Workers are Competitive in a Rapidly Changing Economy. Really
    important work that we are doing and, you know, it is telling
    that here we are trying to look into the future but dealing
    today with this issue.
        Pursuant to Committee Rule 7(c), opening statements are
    limited to the chair and the Ranking Member. This allows us to
    hear from our witnesses sooner and provide all members with
    adequate time to ask questions.
        I want to recognize myself now for the purpose of making an
    opening statement.
        We are gathered today for the committee's second of three
    ``future of work'' hearings. These hearings provide committee
    members the opportunity to hear from experts and stakeholders
    and discuss how to provide all workers access to the tools,
    support, and protections needed to thrive in today's rapidly
    changing economy.
        Today, we will discuss Congress' responsibility to address
    worker displacement by expanding access to lifelong learning
    and ensuring that American workers can remain competitive as
    the nature of work changes.
        There are a wide range of factors that cause workers to
    become displaced. Recessions, trade, climate change, automation
    are just some of the reasons why Americans become disconnected
    from their jobs, their industries, or their workforce. Whatever
    that cause may be, nearly all displaced workers and their
    families face a common set of challenges. Financial hardship,
    poor health, and reduced life expectancy are common
    consequences for all displaced workers.
        Workers who lose their jobs can also suffer lower and less
    stable long-term earnings and may become trapped in a cycle of
    low-wage, low-mobility jobs. Today, some 53 million workers age
    18 to 64, or 44 percent of the workforce, have median annual
    earnings of $17,950 per year. And research shows that over half
    of these workers will remain in this low-wage bracket even when
    they transition to another job.
        Given the severe consequences of worker displacement, you
    might assume that we have a robust, integrated, and well-funded
    system to help workers build their skills and get back into the
    workforce, but, unfortunately, you would be wrong.
        Although worker displacement is a familiar and ongoing
    challenge, our current policy response consists of a thin
    patchwork of programs and services that are poorly integrated
    and increasingly underfunded.
        Federal investments in workforce training and employment
    programs have fallen behind other countries, and they continue
    to decline. We spend only about 0.1 percent of our GDP on
    workforce development programs, compared to an average of 0.6
    percent in our peer industrialized nations. And while the U.S.
    labor force has grown by roughly half over the past four
    decades, Federal investment in workforce development has fallen
    by two-thirds.
        At the same time, employers' investment in workforce
    training has also decreased. From 1996 to 2008, the percentage
    of workers receiving employer-sponsored training fell by 42
    percent. Let me say that again. The percentage of workers
    receiving--this is from 1996 to 2008--the percentage of workers
    receiving employer-sponsored training fell by 42 percent. That
    is a staggering number to remember.
        Lower skilled workers who could benefit the most from
    training often receive the least, as employers direct most
    investment toward workers who already hold high-skilled and
    managerial positions.
        Adequate investment is not the only challenge. The existing
    patchwork of policies and programs makes it difficult for
    displaced workers to access the resources that they need.
        Under the current system, eligibility for benefits and
    services is geared toward workers who have suffered only
    specific causes of displacement. Workers affected by trade
    receive the most support than others, and they would probably
    tell you that is also not adequate. The burden generally falls
    on the worker to prove the cause of their displacement and then
    find which programs or services they are eligible to receive.
        As automation and other emerging trends continue to disrupt
    our economy in new ways, we must reshape workforce programs to
    help all workers at risk of displacement secure in-demand
    skills. Reskilling alone is insufficient to ensure workers can
    remain competitive. We must explore policies to proactively
    prevent displacement, enhance worker supports like career
    guidance, and promote lifelong learning.
        Today, our witnesses will also help us discuss policies
    Congress could pass to ensure workers threatened by
    displacement are not left to fend for themselves. We know, for
    example, that we must substantially increase Federal
    investments in workforce development. And, in fact, the Council
    of Economic Advisers reported that the U.S. would have to spend
    $80.4 billion more per year to match the average spending on
    workforce programs by our peer industrialized countries
    relative to GDP.
        We also must make it easier for workers to locate the
    resources to transition between jobs or build new skills.
    Improving data collection methods and increasing credential
    transparency in our workforce system would be one good example,
    I think, that would match job seekers with employers, inform
    career navigation services, and help workers find sustainable
    career pathways.
        We must build from what we know works, like Trade
    Adjustment Assistance Community College and Career Training, or
    TAACCCT grants, and expand career navigation supports.
        And finally, Congress must ensure that resources for
    lifelong learning programs, which help workers access education
    and training opportunities, can be accessed by all workers and
    in all parts of the country.
        While there is a cost to these actions, inaction would come
    at a far greater cost to working families. Well-prepared
    workers are better equipped to grow our economy and contribute
    to their communities. The bottom line is clear. Congress must
    invest in a system that brings workforce systems, employers,
    labor, and educators together to ensure the success of workers
    in the future.
        I want to thank all of you again, thank our witnesses for
    being here.
        And I now yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. Smucker, for an
    opening statement.
        [The statement of Chairwoman Davis follows:]

    Prepared Statement of Hon. Susan A. Davis, Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
                   Higher Education and Workforce Investment

        We are gathered today for the Committee's second of three ``future
    of work'' hearings. These hearings provide Committee Members the
    opportunity to hear from experts and stakeholders and discuss how to
    provide all workers access to the tools, support, and protections
    needed to thrive in today's rapidly changing economy.
        Today, we will discuss Congress's responsibility to address worker
    displacement by expanding access to lifelong learning, and ensuring
    that American workers can remain competitive as the nature of work
    changes.
        There are a wide range of factors that cause workers to become
    displaced. Recessions, trade, climate change, and automation are just
    some of the reasons why Americans become disconnected from their jobs,
    their industries, or the workforce.
        Whatever the cause, nearly all displaced workers and their families
    face a common set of challenges. Financial hardship, poorer health, and
    reduced life expectancy are common consequences for all displaced
    workers.
        Workers who lose their jobs can also suffer lower and less stable
    long-term earnings, and may become trapped in a cycle of low-wage, low-
    mobility jobs. Today, some 53 million workers age 18 to 64 - or 44
    percent of the workforce - have median annual earnings of $17,950 per
    year. And research shows that over half of these workers will remain in
    this low wage bracket even when they transition to another job.
        Given the severe consequences of worker displacement, you might
    assume we have a robust, integrated, and well- funded system to help
    workers build their skills and get back into the workforce.
    Unfortunately, you would be wrong.
        Although worker displacement is a familiar and ongoing challenge,
    our current policy response consists of a thin patchwork of programs
    and services that are poorly integrated and increasingly underfunded.
        Federal investments in workforce training and employment programs
    have fallen behind other countries and continue to decline. We spend
    only about 0.1 percent of our GDP on workforce development programs,
    compared to an average of 0.6 percent in our peer industrialized
    nations. And while the U.S. labor force has grown by roughly half over
    the past four decades, federal investment in workforce development has
    fallen by two-thirds.
        At the same time, employers' investment in workforce training has
    also decreased. From 1996 to 2008, the percentage of workers receiving
    employer-sponsored training fell by 42 percent. Lower-skill workers who
    could benefit the most from training often receive the least, as
    employers direct most investment toward workers who already hold high-
    skilled and managerial positions.
        Adequate investment is not the only challenge. The existing
    patchwork of policies and programs makes it difficult for displaced
    workers to access the resources they need.
        Under the current system, eligibility for benefits and services is
    geared towards workers who've suffered only specific causes of
    displacement - workers affected by trade receive the most support that
    others. The burden generally falls on the worker to ``prove'' the cause
    of their displacement and then find which programs or services they're
    eligible to receive.
        As automation and other emerging trends continue to disrupt our
    economy in new ways, we must reshape workforce programs to help all
    workers at risk of displacement secure in-demand skills.
        Reskilling alone is insufficient to ensure workers can remain
    competitive. We must explore policies to proactively prevent
    displacement, enhance worker supports like career guidance, and promote
    lifelong learning.
        Today, our witnesses will also help us discuss policies Congress
    could pass to ensure workers threatened by displacement are not left to
    fend for themselves.
        We know, for example, that we must substantially increase federal
    investments in workforce development. In fact, the Council of Economic
    Advisers reported that the U.S. would have to spend $80.4 billion more
    per year to match the average spending on workforce programs by our
    peer industrialized countries relative to GDP.
        We also must make it easier for workers to locate the resources to
    transition between jobs or build new skills. Improving data collection
    methods and increasing credential transparency in our workforce system,
    for example, would better match job seekers with employers, inform
    career navigation services, and help workers find sustainable career
    pathways.
        We must build from what we know works, like Trade Adjustment
    Assistance Community College and Career Training, or TACT grants, and
    expanded career navigation supports.
        Finally, Congress must ensure that resources for lifelong learning
    programs, which help workers access education and training
    opportunities, can be accessed by all workers, and in all parts of the
    country.
        While there is a cost to these actions, inaction would come at far
    greater cost to working families. Well-prepared workers are better
    equipped to grow our economy and contribute to their communities. The
    bottom line is clear: Congress must invest in a system that brings
    workforce systems, employers, labor, and educators together to ensure
    the success of workers in the future.
        Thank you, again, to our witnesses for being with us today. I now
    yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. Smucker, for an opening statement.
                                     ______

        Mr. Smucker. Thank you for yielding.
        Today, we are here to discuss the future of work and how
    Federal policies and Federal programs can help to ensure that
    workers can remain competitive in a rapidly changing economy.
        There is a lot of good news here. American workers are
    benefiting from a strong economy ushered in by Republican pro-
    growth policies. Wages are on the rise. Jobs are being created,
    and unemployment is at a 50-year low.
        Thanks to this thriving economy, displacement rates are
    lower than they have been in years. Numbers from the Bureau of
    Labor Statistics illustrate that job separations today are
    largely voluntary. However, displacement continues to occur,
    and it will be unavoidable as technology evolves and the skills
    needed to compete in the labor market change.
        While we must acknowledge the problems associated with
    displacement and work to address them, our first step must be
    to help workers to acquire the skills and knowledge they need
    to get off the sidelines and into one of the millions of jobs
    that are open today across the Nation.
        According to a 2018 survey of U.S. employers, nearly half
    of all job creators struggled to hire employees with the right
    skills for the job, which has led to 7 million unfilled
    positions throughout the country and a substantial skills gap
    that plagues our workforce.
        Earlier this year, this committee heard from Daniel Pianko,
    co-founder and managing director of University Ventures, a
    company working to transform the pathway from higher education
    to employment. Pianko said in his testimony: ``The skills gap
    is exacting a heavy toll on American families and institutions.
    It is impeding economic growth, promoting generational
    inequity, jeopardizing the American Dream, and creating real
    anxiety about the future of work.''
        Fortunately, we know that skills-based education, like
    apprenticeships, are proven to help address the growing skills
    gap that we currently face. That is why my Republican
    colleagues and I have taken steps to advance work-based
    learning opportunities, including further integrating our
    education and workforce development systems, so that we can
    provide workers with the skills necessary to fill those
    millions of unfilled jobs. These efforts will aid all workers,
    including displaced workers.
        Thanks to the Trump administration, the Task Force on
    Apprenticeship Expansion is also working on solving the issues
    that put up barriers to entry and bureaucratic red tape for
    those who wish to develop apprenticeship programs.
    Specifically, the Task Force recommended giving businesses
    greater flexibility in their apprenticeship programs to meet
    the varying needs of different industries. After all, employers
    know what skills their employees need best to excel in the
    workplace.
        We should build on these successes by advancing policies
    that make it more attractive and easier to invest in workers.
    Rather than promoting policies that burden businesses and drive
    up costs, committee Republicans will continue to champion
    reforms that expand opportunities for flexibility, innovation,
    and entrepreneurship, to give workers and job seekers
    opportunities to compete successfully in the 21st century
    economy.
        I want to thank the witnesses for coming today, and I look
    forward to hearing from each of you.
        [The statement of Mr. Smucker follows:]

    Prepared Statement of Hon. Lloyd Smucker, Ranking Member, Subcommittee
                  on Higher Education and Workforce Investment

        Today, we are here to discuss the future of work and how we can
    ensure workers are competitive in a rapidly changing economy.
        Here's the good news. American workers are benefitting from a
    strong economy ushered in by Republican pro-growth policies. Wages are
    on the rise, jobs are being created, and unemployment is at a 50-year
    low.
        Thanks to this thriving economy, displacement rates are lower than
    they have been in years. Numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics
    illustrate that job separations today are largely voluntary.
        However, displacement continues to occur and it will be unavoidable
    as technology evolves and the skills needed to compete in the labor
    market change.
        While we must acknowledge the problems associated with displacement
    and work to address them, our first step must be to provide workers
    with the skills they need to get off the sidelines and into one of the
    millions of jobs open today across the nation.
        According to a 2018 survey of U.S. employers, nearly half of all
    job creators struggle to hire employees with the right skills for the
    job, which has led to seven million unfilled positions throughout the
    country and a substantial skills gap that plagues our workforce.
    Earlier this year this committee heard from Daniel Pianko, co-founder
    and managing director of University Ventures, a company working to
    transform the pathway from higher education to employment. Pianko said
    in his testimony, `The skills gap is exacting a heavy toll on American
    families and institutions. It is impeding economic growth, promoting
    generational inequity, jeopardizing the American Dream, and creating
    real anxiety about the future of work.'
        Fortunately, we know that skills-based education, like
    apprenticeships, are proven to help address the growing skills gap we
    currently face.
        That is why my Republican colleagues and I have taken steps to
    advance work-based learning opportunities, including further
    integrating our education and workforce development systems so we can
    provide workers with the skills necessary to fill the millions of
    unfilled jobs nationwide. These efforts will aid all workers, including
    displaced workers.
        Thanks to the Trump administration, the Task Force on
    Apprenticeship Expansion is also working on solving the issues that put
    up barriers and bureaucratic red tape for those who wish to develop
    apprenticeship programs. Specifically, the task force recommended
    giving businesses greater flexibility in their apprenticeship programs
    to meet the varying needs of different industries. After all, employers
    know what skills their employees need to excel in the workplace.
        We should build on these successes by advancing policies that make
    it more attractive and easier to invest in workers.
        Rather than promoting policies that burden businesses and drive up
    costs, Committee Republicans will continue to champion reforms that
    expand opportunities for flexibility, innovation, and entrepreneurship
    to give workers and job-seekers opportunities to compete successfully
    in the 21st century economy.
        I want to thank the witnesses for coming today and I look forward
    to hearing from them.
                                     ______

        Chairwoman Davis. I want to thank the gentleman for his
    statement.
        Without objection, all other members who wish to insert
    written statements into the record may do so by submitting them
    to the Committee Clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format,
    usually within 14 days, but since we are meeting here and that
    falls on January 1, we will grant time up until January 6 at 5
    o'clock.
        I am pleased to recognize my colleague, Representative
    Jayapal, to briefly introduce her constituent who is appearing
    before us as a witness today.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        And I am so proud to welcome Nova Gattman from Washington
    State. Ms. Gattman is the deputy director for external affairs
    on the State's Workforce Training and Education Coordinating
    Board. She played a key role in coordinating and contributing
    to the State's Future of Work Task Force, which brought
    together business leaders, unions, worker advocates, academic
    experts, and elected officials. The Task Force just issued a
    very comprehensive report that I will be submitting for the
    record on the future of work.
        Ms. Gattman was also the co-chair of Washington's National
    Governors Association Policy Academy on Work-Based Learning,
    which played a key role in launching Governor Inslee's Career
    Connect Washington Project.
        I had the opportunity to work with Ms. Gattman when I was
    in the State Senate, and delighted to have your testimony here
    today. Welcome.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
        And I will now introduce the remaining witnesses. Seth
    Harris is an attorney in Washington, D.C., and a visiting
    professor at Cornell University's Institute for Public Affairs.
    Previously, he served as the Acting U.S. Secretary of Labor and
    a member of President Obama's Cabinet, by the way, and Deputy
    U.S. Secretary of Labor from 2009 to 2014.
        James Paretti is a shareholder in the Washington, D.C.,
    office of Littler Mendelson PC and a member of the firm's
    Workplace Policy Institute. He is also a member of the board of
    directors of the Emma Coalition and is testifying today on
    behalf of the Emma Coalition.
        Brad Markell is the executive director of the AFL-CIO
    Working for America Institute and the executive director of the
    Industrial Union Council at AFL-CIO.
        We appreciate all of you being here and look forward to
    your testimony. And I want to especially thank those of you who
    have traveled to be here with us today.
        I want to remind the witnesses that we have read your
    written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing
    record. Pursuant to Committee Rule 7(d) and committee practice,
    each of you is asked to limit your oral presentation to a 5-
    minute summary of your written statement.
        I need to remind the witnesses that pursuant to Title 18 of
    the U.S. Code, section 1001, it is illegal to knowingly and
    willfully falsify any statement, representation, writing,
    document, or material fact presented to Congress or otherwise
    conceal or cover up a material fact.
        Before you begin your testimony, please remember to press
    the button on the microphone in front of you so that it will
    turn on and the members can hear you. As you begin to speak,
    the light in front of you will turn green, and after 4 minutes,
    the light will turn yellow to signal that you have 1 remaining
    minute. When the light turns red, your 5 minutes have expired
    and we ask that you please wrap up.
        We will let the entire panel make their presentation before
    we move to member questions. And when answering a question,
    please remember to once again turn your microphone on.
        I will first recognize Mr. Harris.
        I would like to inform you that Ms. Wild and Ms. Schrier
    will be joining us at this hearing, Members from other
    subcommittees.
        Mr. Harris.

     STATEMENT OF SETH D. HARRIS J.D., VISITING PROFESSOR, CORNELL
     INSTITUTE FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS, SE, SUITE 310, WASHINGTON, D.C.

        Mr. Harris. Thank you, Madam Chair, Ranking Member Smucker,
    and Members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity
    to testify today. I will share some lessons I learned while
    overseeing the Labor Department's workforce development
    programs and leading the Department's response to the Great
    Recession and its aftermath.
        Of course, economic catastrophes like the Great Recession
    are not the only causes of worker displacement. Trade and
    technology are also important. They have combined to shift
    employment growth from middle-skill occupations toward low-
    skill and high-skill occupations, but worker dislocation has
    many causes.
        Workers face relentless change, which puts them at
    continual risk. Technologies, products, and services, markets,
    transportation systems, and capital investment all evolve,
    often unpredictably. But American workers' needs do not change.
    They always need sufficient income to support themselves and
    their families. They also need an opportunity to secure a place
    in the American middle class through hard work, if they are
    able.
        Greater opportunities to acquire skills and knowledge will
    enable working people to respond to dislocations and change.
    Without those opportunities, middle-skill workers risk slipping
    out of the middle class, and workers in low-wage, low-skill
    jobs, who are most likely to cycle into similar jobs rather
    than moving to higher skill jobs, risk being permanently locked
    out of the middle class.
        Unfortunately, the workforce development system struggles
    to help all who need it. It has a patchwork design. Programs
    serve only particular populations of workers: Dislocated,
    disadvantaged, ex-offenders, trade-affected workers, out-of-
    school-youth and others. Too many cannot find a place in any of
    those programs.
        And even eligible workers are challenged, because the
    system is grossly underfunded. Since 2001, Congress has slashed
    funding for many programs. Hundreds of thousands more workers
    could have been trained if Congress appropriated at the
    authorized or fiscal 2001 levels for Workforce Innovation and
    Opportunity Act programs.
        Inadequate funding also skews services away from job
    training. In the first quarter of 2019, only 12 percent of
    exiters and 19 percent of program participants in the WIOA
    Dislocated Workers Program received training services.
        Here are four additional and fundamental challenges. First,
    learning while working is both expensive and demanding. Most
    workers have neither the time nor the money to pursue the
    credentials they need; second, the landscape of education and
    training credentials is complex, too complex for ordinary
    workers to sort out on their own; third, career pathways are
    difficult to navigate, and most workers get little guidance;
    fourth, workers do not have a guarantee in most instances that
    more education or training will result in a better job.
        The failure to address these challenges has contributed to
    the disturbing fact that rates of upward income mobility in the
    United States, that is, doing better than our parents, have
    been cut almost in half over the course of two generations.
        Let me suggest seven solutions. Solution one: Unions make a
    huge difference in education and training. More unions and
    union members would mean more skilled and knowledgeable workers
    with career pathways. By contrast, unregulated industry
    recognized apprenticeship programs will undermine successful
    registered apprenticeships and not increase success.
        Solution number two: Let's stop pretending that workers can
    finance their own education and training. Congress must
    substantially increase appropriations for the WIOA programs and
    Pell Grants and open Pell Grants to those seeking nondegree
    credentials.
        Solution number three: We must have flexible delivery
    systems that fit with workers' lives, but only if we can
    provide a style of education that fits their learning styles.
    Let's start a national dialogue about what workers need to
    succeed.
        Solution number four: We need a radical transparency
    movement around credentials. Everyone must share their data
    about credentials and their outcomes. The U.S. Government
    should require public disclosure of these data.
        Solution number five: We must aggressively expand the
    public workforce system's existing cadre of career navigators
    to help workers find their career pathways. Simply, we have
    evidence that it works.
        Solution number six: We need labor market intermediaries
    that can help employers get organized to work with training
    providers. The Trade Adjustment Assistance Community College
    Career Training program was a success. You should re-create it.
        Solution number seven: Let's break down the distinction
    between pursuing a labor market credential and pursuing an
    educational degree. Prior learning assessment and articulation
    agreements should be the rule, not the rare exceptions.
        Those are my recommendations, Madam Chair. I look forward
    to your questions.
        [The statement of Mr. Harris follows:]

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        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        And, Ms. Gattman.

        STATEMENT OF NOVA GATTMAN, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR EXTERNAL
     AFFAIRS, WORKFORCE TRAINING AND EDUCATION COORDINATING BOARD,
                               OLYMPIA WA

        Ms. Gattman. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis, Ranking Member
    Smucker, and Members of the subcommittee, for the opportunity
    to testify on behalf of Washington State's future of work
    efforts. My name is Nova Gattman. I am the deputy director for
    external affairs at Washington's Workforce Board.
        Washington is often associated with large IT companies,
    like Microsoft or Amazon. However, Washington is an incredibly
    diverse State. IT is only our tenth largest industry sector in
    the State. Agriculture is actually our second largest export
    sector after aerospace. And one challenge that we face is that
    economic prosperity is not equally distributed.
        Unfortunately, the jobs that are most likely to be
    automated are the same jobs that are most prominent in the
    rural areas in the State that are currently experiencing higher
    unemployment and lower wages. Washington is committed to
    addressing these disparities by increasing support for workers
    and building an economy that works for businesses, workers, and
    communities.
        Our Future of Work report highlights that 65 percent of the
    jobs today's kindergartners will hold when they become adults
    do not exist today. And one critical aspect of preparing for
    the future of work are opportunities for career-connected
    learning. Governor Inslee's Career Connect Washington
    initiative envisions every student in Washington participating
    in career-connected learning. This program includes local
    grants to develop and build capacity in every sector and
    increased enrollment funding. Since 2017, 78,000 career-
    connected learning experiences have already been made possible
    through this work.
        Additionally, our State passed legislation this year that
    would allow over 110,000 students to participate in higher
    education over the next 4 years, and this includes the student
    cost of participating in registered apprenticeship programs.
    Also of note, uniquely, our State's program has no age limits,
    and so this benefits not only an 18-year-old traditional
    student seeking a 4-year degree, but also a 45-year-old mid-
    career worker who is seeking retraining or up-skilling
    opportunities.
        In terms of Washington's public workforce development
    system, we are most successful when we can begin working with
    businesses and workers long before business shutters its doors
    or an individual seeks unemployment insurance. A significant
    challenge is that the current reactive system of Federal
    supports are primarily focused on identifying mass layoffs that
    qualify for funding.
        To be effective as we prepare for the future of work, our
    systems must look towards anticipating and addressing sector
    shifts and identifying groups of workers at risk.
        And now I would like to speak about Washington's Future of
    Work Task Force, which is staffed by our State's Workforce
    Board, and its policy recommendations. The Task Force included
    four members from the legislature, six from business, and six
    from labor. We were the first State in the Nation to convene a
    legislative task force focused on this topic.
        The Task Force came up with five broad policy areas and 17
    specific recommendations. These include: Enhanced worker
    training and lifelong learning opportunities; two,
    understanding and setting guidelines on deploying advanced
    technologies and starting with a State government workforce;
    three, examining how to modernize worker support systems to
    support the changing nature of work and increasing career
    mobility for many individuals; four, re-imagining career and
    credentialing pathways to allow for validation and comparison
    of the value of educational opportunities; and finally,
    deploying economic development resources to support small and
    midsize businesses, especially in our more rural regions.
        Some key recommendations that might be of interest from
    those topic areas. First, incumbent worker training. The best
    way to ensure that our workers aren't being left behind is to
    ensure that they have the skills to grow with their employers
    and in their careers. Our incumbent worker training programs
    are popular with businesses, but the limited funds run out
    quickly. The Task Force recommends that we fund the unmet
    employer applications this year and supports a likely request
    for $25 million for our State in 2021.
        Lifelong learning accounts, or LiLAs, is another key
    strategy. LiLAs are portable employee-owned accounts that help
    pay for education and related expenses, with employers and
    employees both contributing to the accounts. Washington was one
    of the first States in the country to initiate a LiLA program,
    with the support of then-State senator Derek Kilmer, who is, of
    course, now your colleague, Representative Kilmer. One rural
    healthcare employer estimated that LiLA saved him over $70,000
    in retention costs just in the first year of using the program.
        Another recommendation recognizes the role that libraries
    play in our communities as a hub for those with limited access
    to the internet or other resources, and calls for support to
    allow local libraries to provide access to training, education,
    and business development resources.
        The Task Force also supports expanding the use of
    collaborative applied research, which pairs a business and its
    workers with a college or university to work together to
    develop new products or solve a business problem.
        In conclusion, although our work was focused on developing
    the best future work policies to promote shared prosperity
    among the residents of Washington, I hope these recommendations
    can help serve as helpful blueprints for those of you here
    today.
        Thank you for the invitation to share Washington's story,
    and I am happy to answer any questions.
        [The statement of Ms. Gattman follows:]

    	[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Paretti.

        STATEMENT OF JAMES A. PARETTI JR., SHAREHOLDER, LITTLER
      MENDELSON P.C., TREASURER, EMMA COALITION, WASHINGTON, D.C.

        Mr. Paretti. Chair Davis, Ranking Member Smucker, Members
    of the subcommittee, good morning, and thank you for the
    opportunity to appear before you. My name is Jim Paretti. I am
    a shareholder in the law firm of Littler Mendelson, and a
    member of the board of directors of the Emma Coalition. My
    testimony here this morning is solely on behalf of the Emma
    Coalition, not my firm or any of its clients.
        The Emma Coalition is a nonpartisan 501(c)(3) corporation
    dedicated to the preparation of the American workforce for
    technology-induced displacement of employment, or what we call
    TIDE. We seek to bring together businesses, trade associations,
    labor, academic institutions, and policymakers to address the
    challenges and opportunities presented by TIDE that our
    workforce is already facing.
        We believe that with proper preparation, employers and
    workers can thrive in TIDE; but if they do nothing, TIDE will
    overwhelm them.
        Now, I am often asked, what does Emma stand for? In
    Washington, everything is an acronym. Well, Emma is not a what
    but a who, and she is the 8-year-old granddaughter of Michael
    Lotito, one of my partners and the president and co-founder of
    the Emma Coalition.
        More than that, Emma represents the next generation of our
    workforce. Each of us in this room today has an Emma, and we
    owe it to all of them to ensure a skilled and prepared
    workforce so that all Emmas will be able to succeed.
        The National Restaurant Association is also a co-founder of
    the Emma Coalition. The restaurant industry compromises over 1
    million restaurants and outlets nationally, employing 15.3
    million employees, roughly 10 percent of the U.S. workforce.
    Given that one in three Americans get their first job in the
    restaurant industry, it is at the epicenter of TIDE, and the
    NRA is helping its members meet its challenges. I discuss some
    of the ways in which it is doing so in my written testimony.
        Respectfully, the question of whether TIDE will
    fundamentally reshape our workforce is no longer before the
    subcommittee. That ship has sailed. The questions now before
    you are when, how, and to what extent these changes will come
    and, most important, what can we do to prepare for them?
        A few key points. First, the speed at which TIDE is
    changing the workplace is exponentially faster than any we have
    seen before. This is perhaps the most striking way in which
    this industrial revolution differs from the ones that have come
    before it and why we at Emma believe a response is urgent.
        Second, disruption caused by TIDE will affect everyone,
    regardless of class, race, geography, age, or industry, but its
    impact will be felt by some individuals and in certain sectors
    more than others.
        Third, while we might assume that only blue-collar or lower
    skilled occupations will be impacted by TIDE, it is clear that
    white-collar jobs in banking, accounting, healthcare, law,
    other industries will also face disruption.
        Finally, while the disruption caused by TIDE may be
    unsettling, TIDE need not be wholly negative, and in the long
    run, is likely to have an overall positive effect on the labor
    market. That is, if we take steps to ensure that our workforce
    is prepared.
        I am excited to be here this morning alongside the
    Washington State Task Force on the Future of Work. We welcomed
    the release of their report earlier this month, and we believe
    that Washington State's recognition that the time for action is
    now should serve as a model for other States and localities in
    facing the challenges of TIDE. We are doing everything we can
    to put that out there.
        Another group with whom we are working is America Succeeds.
    America Succeeds supports a national network of nonpartisan,
    business-led policy education toward improving--I am sorry,
    committed to improving public education and creating a culture
    of lifelong learning.
        In the 21st century workplace, it is no longer simply the
    three Rs that count. Our students must also master the four Cs
    of critical thinking, creativity, communication, and
    collaboration. We look forward to working with America Succeeds
    in their efforts.
        We are convinced that data analytics will be crucial in
    responding to TIDE. We need to determine how we can use data to
    identify, at a granular level, which jobs are most susceptible
    to displacement, what jobs are likely to replace them, what
    skills are necessary for success in these new jobs, what sort
    of up-skilling is necessary to close the gap, that delta, and
    how do we effectively deliver what will enable displaced
    workers to succeed. We are actively exploring ways with data
    vendors to do so.
        The need for workers throughout their careers to be dynamic
    will be paramount. We believe the concept of financial
    incentives for lifelong learning shows promise, as you have
    heard. Currently, we provide tax-favored ways to set aside
    money at the end of our careers through 401(k)s and IRAs, and
    at the start of our careers through tax-deferred savings for
    college. We at Emma believe we should explore the effectiveness
    of providing similar benefits for workers throughout their
    careers.
        Finally, we need a national strategy. The U.S. is woefully
    behind in responding to the complex and interrelated issues
    raised by TIDE, and many view our lack of engagement not only
    as a matter of economic security but is one of national
    security. Compared to other countries, our efforts have been
    lagging, at best, but we are pleased and hope that today's
    hearing is an important first step.
        At the end of the day, we know that TIDE will dramatically
    transform our workforce. The challenges ahead are great, but
    the Emma Coalition firmly believes that so are the
    opportunities. We stand ready to work with you, and I welcome
    any questions you may have.
        Thank you.
        [The statement of Mr. Paretti follows:]

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        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
        Mr. Markell.

    STATEMENT OF BRAD MARKELL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AFL-CIO WORKING
                FOR AMERICA INSTITUTE, WASHINGTON, D.C.

        Mr. Markell. Chair Davis, Ranking Member Smucker, and
    Members of the committee, thank you for inviting AFL-CIO to
    share its views on these important topics. I serve as the
    director of the AFL-CIO Working for America Institute, a
    national nonprofit intermediary that works to bring organized
    labor's resources, expertise, and worker engagement to bear on
    our Nation's workforce development programs and to help develop
    and support innovative programs for training and support
    services.
        In 2017, the AFL-CIO formed a Commission on the Future of
    Work and Unions, whose report you have as a part of my written
    statement. The report confirms that advances in technology have
    always redefined work. This is nothing new. Unions have been
    addressing job displacement and skill changes within
    occupations for decades. Today, we are bargaining over the fair
    implementation of technology in the workplace and making sure
    frontline workers have a say in the design of work as new
    technologies come to the workplace.
        The Commission's report makes clear that technology itself
    is not the issue. The real issue is the human arrangement to
    shape how technology is used. Who has a say in the development
    of technology? Who gets opportunities for training for the new
    tasks and the new jobs of tomorrow? Will society, through our
    government, provide the resources that workers, employers, and
    communities need to grow and prosper as the pace of technology
    change accelerates?
        The Commission engaged dozens of experts in a detailed
    examination of how technology is changing work. We found, while
    there is no question that technology will eliminate some jobs,
    the robot apocalypse of job loss is not upon us. Rather, the
    main trend over the next decade will be jobs changing with new
    technology, not jobs being eliminated. This leads to the
    inescapable conclusion that we must focus on understanding how
    tasks will change within occupations to make sure that
    incumbent workers get the skills they need to stay employed and
    to be clear about the new skills needed in occupations that can
    employ displaced workers, no matter why they are displaced.
        As documented in my written testimony, people of color in
    low-income communities are overrepresented in occupations
    vulnerable to disruption and have well-identified challenges
    when it comes to employment transition. In the work of WAI and
    its partners, we have found that these challenges can be
    overcome by providing services that address specific barriers,
    such as childcare, transportation, or access to basic skills
    refresher training.
        We urge the committee and the Congress to take special care
    in addressing and funding these programs so all Americans can
    have a chance to succeed as technology changes our workplaces
    and the way we work.
        Many Americans have missed out on the gains of a growing
    economy. Rapidly changing technology can make this worse or it
    can be an opportunity to solve the very real problems of
    inequality and inequity in our society.
        We believe that a successful path is an all-of-the-above
    approach that meets workers and employers where they are and
    helps them succeed. This includes increased funding for
    workforce development programs and support services, with
    special attention to underserved and vulnerable populations;
    promote and fund registered apprenticeships, including programs
    to align them with changing technology; reform and expand
    unemployment insurance and expand access to job search
    assistance; reform trade adjustment assistance to expand it to
    cover workers displaced by technology; expand the role of
    sector partnerships, labor workforce intermediaries, and joint
    labor management training programs in the workforce system.
        Pass the PRO Act. Good outcomes for workers depend on
    workers having an actual voice in the workplace. An open-door
    policy doesn't cut it. You need institutional power so that
    workers can have a voice that really puts their interests on an
    even setting with employers.
        Finally, we can make public investments that will create
    high-quality training and good jobs and increase opportunity
    for everyone. This Congress can and must lead the way.
        I thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
        [The statement of Mr. Markell follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        Under Committee Rule 8(a), we will now question witnesses
    under the 5-minute rule. And as chair, I will ask the first
    question and then be followed by the Ranking Member, and then
    we will alternate between the parties.
        I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
        Now, you have all laid out a few recommendations that I
    think are very helpful to us. And we know that we are in a new
    situation, in many cases, due to technology and a host of other
    issues. We can't just reinvest perhaps in existing programs.
    Some of them we may have to decide have not been so helpful,
    but others we can go and approach in a different way.
        And I will start with Mr. Harris. If you could just, of
    those recommendations that you listed--and I understand that in
    many cases it is--you mentioned that we can't assume that
    workers know where to go, how to help themselves, in many
    cases. But what is it that you feel is, you know, really a key
    barrier, maybe something that we talk about less in terms of
    these issues? And I think I would like the rest of you, if you
    would, please, to, you know, of those concerns that you have,
    what do we usually miss in thinking about these issues?
        Professor Harris.
        Mr. Harris. So I want to highlight the rather egregious
    market failures that exist in the market for skills, knowledge,
    and credentials. So, essentially, the way our system works is
    we say to workers, figure out what degree or credential or
    training you should get that is going to get you a job. We are
    not going to tell you which one. And then either find your own
    funding or we will provide you with funding, although you
    provide very few of them with funding, let me be honest with
    you.
        The problem with that kind of an approach is that the
    people who are making the choices, both workers and employers,
    don't have the requisite information. Market systems depend
    upon widely available free-flowing, readily accessible
    information. Workers don't know which credentials will end up
    in their getting jobs or even what skills and knowledge those
    credentials certify.
        Employers also often don't know that. They sometimes don't
    know what credentials they want people to acquire, because they
    don't know what competencies they want people to be trained in.
    But they don't understand it any better than anybody else.
        In the United States right now--and I mentioned this in my
    testimony--there are more than 730,000 credentials that are
    offered to workers and employers. No one can sort that out and
    no one does. There is no Yelp for credentials in our country.
    So I think that fundamental market failure is a very serious
    problem that we need to solve.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
        And Ms. Gattman as well. How do we get there?
        Ms. Gattman. Sure.
        Chairwoman Davis. What gets in the way?
        Ms. Gattman. One of the things that we have been really
    working on in Washington is this idea of integrated service
    delivery. And WIOA, the way it was set up was, you know, it did
    break down a lot of the barriers where, you know, we are able
    to serve the whole worker. One of the things that has been a
    concern for us is the way it is set up, though, there are
    disincentives for folks to work together between different
    agencies, different programs. It is a question of who gets the
    credit or how does that--how is the funding distributed. And so
    that is something that, you know, we would be certainly
    interested in talking more about and what we could do to help
    influence that conversation.
        Chairwoman Davis. I know one of the things just to bring up
    quickly is that many of our families actually would struggle to
    pay a $400 unexpected expense. So how does that relate to what
    you are saying? What do we need there to have some assistance,
    cheer people on?
        Ms. Gattman. Sure. So one of the aspects of our report that
    we highlighted is the Lifelong Learning Accounts program. So
    when we are talking about that unexpected expense, particularly
    regarding to education programs, when you have--a lot of the
    times that is the main reason people are dropping out of higher
    education. And so having access to an account that can bridge
    some of those smaller amounts but they are still very
    significant to the families makes a huge difference.
        Chairwoman Davis. Could be helpful. Thank you.
        Mr. Paretti, and then, Mr. Markell, I haven't left you too
    much time, but we will try and get to you really quickly.
        Mr. Paretti. I was labor counsel for 8 years to the
    committee but on the workforce side, so I never sat in a
    hearing where the witnesses actually generally agreed with one
    another or thought we were all fighting the same battles. It is
    a pleasure.
        I will endorse what Ms. Gattman said with regard to
    Lifelong Learning Accounts. I think resources obviously are a
    barrier. Two other points quickly. I think with respect to
    data, I agree with Professor Harris that we really need to take
    a close look. And I believe that we can.
        The numbers are out there, whether they are publicly
    available, some are privately available, industry-based, to say
    how do we figure out what jobs are going, what are leaving,
    where are they going, and what are the skills and core
    competencies needed.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you. I am going to switch to Mr.
    Markell. We will be back and talk to everybody some more.
        Mr. Markell, quickly, just that one kind of glaring thing
    that we have to have.
        Mr. Markell. Organized labor is really, really concerned
    that workers are being steered down bad paths that don't lead
    to good jobs and stable occupations. So we need to learn a lot
    more about the quality of jobs and the outcomes for training
    providers that are trying to pull people into training that
    doesn't lead them anywhere.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        I now turn to the Ranking Member, and would you like us
    to--I will let you--and we are going to go to Mr. Guthrie.
    Thank you very much.
        Mr. Guthrie. Thank you very much. Thank you all for being
    here. It is great to have you.
        Mr. Paretti, I am chair of the E-Commerce Caucus, along
    with Peter Aguilar of California. One of our main focuses is
    how the e-commerce industry will support American
    competitiveness and economic growth.
        As our country develops new innovative technologies, such
    as improving the artificial intelligence, we have to ensure
    that we are helping people learn the skills to work with new
    technology. And I am particularly interested in your example of
    the healthcare industry adapting AI. Can you expand on the
    benefits and challenges of an industry that embraces technology
    such as AI versus one that is not adaptive and keeps the status
    quo?
        Mr. Paretti. Sure. Thank you, Congressman. I think the
    healthcare industry is a great example of the role of AI in
    improving outcomes across the board. Through the use of
    artificial intelligence, robotics, you now have surgeons and
    others who are able to perform much more complex surgeries than
    they have ever done in less time with better patient outcomes
    and better results.
        The automated ability to track a patient's condition,
    monitoring in the hospital, those are all things that would
    just require a human body to do. At the same time, what it has
    allowed for is the development of skills in other areas.
    Whereas, you no longer need a nurse necessarily walking the
    halls to hand out pills, that can be taken care of.
        What you do need is someone to more fully engage with the
    patient on a holistic basis and work with them towards managing
    whatever has gotten them there towards their treatment. So I
    think the healthcare industry is a striking example of where AI
    presents challenges but also some great opportunities.
        Mr. Guthrie. You mentioned in your testimony that some
    studies say that 85 percent of the jobs--85 percent of the jobs
    that will exist in 2040 have not been--don't exist today. And I
    am trying to think of that--that is only 20 years away--and
    think of 85 percent of the disruption in the workforce. It is
    something you want to talk about as well. I know that is in
    your testimony.
        And I was just thinking, you know, 20 years ago, we really
    didn't have--you had phones, but not to the level that we have.
    So all the work that has come--Amazon, I mean those, they
    existed, but not to the point that they are.
        So of the studies you have seen, what are you thinking and
    how can Congress--maybe if you want to address that too, how
    can Congress--what do we need to do to get out of the way or to
    help in order to make sure we have people qualified for these
    80 percent of new jobs in 20 years? That is not that long away.
        Mr. Paretti. No, no. And I mean, I do say I think we do
    need to acknowledge the studies vary widely. You will see
    everything from 45 to 85 percent, and on its face, it is a
    somewhat startling figure.
        Mr. Guthrie. Substantial.
        Mr. Paretti. Oh, it is absolutely substantial. But you
    think, oh, my goodness, these jobs haven't been created yet.
    Well, as you rightly pointed out, could you imagine 20 years
    ago the folks who were making and servicing all the platform
    vehicles that we use now, the phones, the other technology, you
    know, that were available too. social media, web design, so
    much of what we have seen become automated.
        Mr. Guthrie. You know, one of the limits of 5G development
    and employment are people capable of installing the 5G
    equipment.
        Mr. Paretti. I am sorry, I didn't hear.
        Mr. Guthrie. One of the biggest impediments to 5G is not
    just all the technology and stuff, it is having people with the
    ability to--enough people with the ability to be able to
    install the towers, not really towers but what you use for 5G.
        Mr. Paretti. Sure. No, that is exactly right. And I think
    that is among those 7 million jobs that Mr. Smucker referred
    to, in terms of a skills gap.
        In connection with this hearing this morning, I had a
    number of folks reach out to me and say, boy, make the point,
    Jim, that we are trying to hire folks and we just can't find--
    these are manufacturers, these are auto manufacturers. We have
    talented--we have jobs that provide good long-term wages, a
    road to success, and we simply can't find the folks to get them
    in there.
        Sometimes that is a failing of the educational system.
    Sometimes that is a failing of the job training system. But I
    think, you know, a focus from top to bottom, and particularly
    with respect in K-12, in sort of changing the paradigm. Workers
    need to understand it is no longer--you are going to get there.
    You are going to get your terminal degree, whether it is a
    bachelor's or an associate's or a certificate, and that is
    going to be enough to carry you.
        Mr. Guthrie. We also have the issue we are at record
    unemployment and trying to get more people into the workforce.
    But I have learned--and I was in manufacturing, as Professor
    Harris talked about--the best people to train are the people
    already working that need to go up the ladder so they can earn
    more money. They have got the work ethic. They are showing up
    for work to train.
        But you get to the flexibility. It is really hard to work
    in a factory 40 hours a week, hoping for overtime and having a
    family and trying to--so we have to be flexible with this. And
    any kind of thoughts of you guys on how you--and as we have
    talked about here, apprenticeships particularly, how do we get
    people trained as they are working?
        You know, just to take 4 years off and go back to college
    and have summers off and spring break and fall break, that is
    just not what these people are looking for. They are looking
    for a pathway to be able to earn a living. And that is perfect
    for people 18 to--whenever you can go back for.
        But how do we grab somebody that is 30 that is like, wow,
    it is kind of a dead-end job, but I can really see, instead of
    loading this robot, if I can fix it, then I am going to make a
    lot more money. And how do we make those contacts? Those are
    the things we are trying to think through. If anybody wants to
    comment.
        Mr. Paretti. I don't want to monopolize time, if anyone--
        Mr. Guthrie. I know Professor Harris talked about
    flexibility, we needed flexibility in delivery.
        Mr. Harris. Right. So my main point about flexibility is
    that asynchronous distance learning is not a panacea. It is a
    very good delivery system, but not everybody is appropriate to
    distance learning. For the workers that you are talking about--
    and I share that concern about incumbent workers who are not
    finding a pathway up a career ladder--they really need help
    understanding career pathways from their employers.
        And also let me say, where you have a union, you almost
    always have a very well-defined career pathway. So they need
    understanding about how do I get from here to there and who's
    going to provide me with that training? Is the employer going
    to do it? Is some public enterprise going to do it? Is a
    partnership with a community college going to do it?
        And if I get the credential, is it a credential that is not
    only going to help me in my current workplace, but will it help
    me in the labor market as a whole with other employers. That
    is--
        Mr. Guthrie. As the new jobs come--I know she is gaveling,
    so we better--thank you so much, and I appreciate your time and
    effort. Thank you.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much. And I tried to give
    the Ranking Member back some time.
        Okay. The gentlelady from Washington, Ms. Jayapal.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you to our
    witnesses for being here on such an important subject.
        I think as we think about the future of work, it is
    particularly important that we think about every job being a
    good job.
        I am very proud of our home State. I think we have some of
    the best worker protections and wages across the country.
        And so, Ms. Gattman, let me start with you. The report, the
    Future of Work report shows that the median wage has increased
    across the State, with most of the wage growth going to the
    highest and lowest earning workers. And the report attributes
    that wage growth in the lower paying entry-level jobs, in
    particular, primarily to recent increases in the State minimum
    wage. So it is clear that a good job is a job that pays a
    livable wage.
        What other factors did the Task Force identify that
    contribute to job quality?
        Ms. Gattman. Thank you, Representative. The Task Force
    spent a lot of time on this topic. It is a broad category, job
    quality, that encompasses a wide range of characteristics: pay,
    hours worked, job safety. There is a range of different areas
    there.
        We identified the following six topics that really we felt
    encompassed whether a job was a quality job to a worker, and
    each section goes into greater detail in our report. I
    encourage you to take a look if you haven't had a chance yet.
    But those areas: Wage growth and wage disparity first; second,
    worker voice, self-determination, and job autonomy; third,
    employment structure, relationships, and benefits; fourth, job
    deskilling; fifth, an accessible career pipeline. Five areas,
    actually.
        So some of these do have specific policy recommendations in
    the report, and then others we did flag as needing further
    study. The Task Force was a 15-month task force so far, and we
    are looking to extend that, but we do need to do further study
    on some of those items.
        Ms. Jayapal. And this was the agreement--one of the things
    I liked about the Task Force is that you had businesses, you
    had worker representation, worker organizations and unions, all
    at the table coming up with this unanimous set of
    recommendations around the important areas for a good job.
        You also found in your report that while median wages grew
    in Washington State, there were some workers who were left
    behind. What interventions specifically related to wage
    disparities did the Task Force suggest to address those
    disparities?
        Ms. Gattman. Sure. Thank you. So incumbent worker training
    is certainly a factor for us in helping workers grow with their
    companies and earning those higher wages.
        The Task Force also had a recommendation on joint worker
    management committees as part of any State incumbent worker
    training funding. We think that will help ensure the workers'
    needs and interests are reflected when those public funds are
    invested to support business growth and development.
        The report also talks about better labor market data and
    credential transparency. We want people to be able to better
    prepare for their career futures and to make wise decisions on
    how to invest their time and money to achieve those career
    goals. So to do that, they need information about program
    outcomes and the actual skills and competencies that would
    result from a course or credential.
        Ms. Jayapal. One of the things that is growing in our State
    is the number of contingent workers. And, you know, contingent
    workers have far fewer legal protections, less safety benefits,
    less retirement security.
        What do you recommend that we look at to keep those workers
    safe and secure?
        Ms. Gattman. Sure. So the information we have on this, it
    is largely anecdotal. We went through a lot of research on the
    contingent workforce, and we found that contingent work is on
    the rise, particularly in terms of part-time supplemental
    income.
        But our report covers quite a bit, and it comes down to
    choice. So are the workers taking contingent jobs because they
    like the flexibility, they earn enough to support their
    families, or are they taking that because they have no other
    options? And so we posed the question: Can we create the public
    worker support network and infrastructure that enables those
    workers to earn a family-sustaining income while working in a
    career that is meaningful to them?
        And so one of the things that we recommend is we want to
    look at the public worker benefit system and see if there are
    things that we need to do to help improve that system to be
    more responsive to contingent workers.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you.
        A report that was released yesterday by The Century
    Foundation calls my Domestic Workers Bill of Rights, which is
    cosponsored by many on this subcommittee, a model of innovation
    for other sectors as policymakers consider what laws are needed
    to ensure an inclusive and equitable future for work.
        Madam Chair, I would like to ask unanimous consent to
    introduce both the Future of Work Task Force report and the
    2019 Century Foundation report entitled ``Domestic Workers
    Bill: A Model for Tomorrow's Workforce'' into the record.
        Chairwoman Davis. Without objection.
        [The information follows:]

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        Future of Work Task Force 2019 Policy Report: https://
    www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CPRT-116HPRT43987/pdf/CPRT-
    116HPRT43987.pdf

        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I yield back.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        The gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Grothman.
        Mr. Watkins is next then, the gentleman from Kansas.
        Mr. Watkins. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you.
        In Kansas, we talk with a lot of chief executives who
    certainly have the work, and they would do more if they had the
    people. And so, Mr. Paretti, I hear this from employers all the
    time, you know.
        And so my question is, they can't find enough skilled
    workers for their positions, and so how will this problem be
    exacerbated with the coming TIDE, with the technology-induced
    displacement of employment?
        Mr. Paretti. Thank you, Congressman. We have already seen
    it, I mean, and the speed at which it is happening is
    accelerating. More and more as lower skilled jobs are displaced
    by automation, by artificial intelligence, they do create other
    opportunities, but those opportunities are a higher skill
    level.
        If we are currently in a situation where we can't fill 7
    million jobs now because of the lack of skilled workers, as the
    jobs that are out there require a greater skill set and greater
    set of competencies to master, that number is going to only get
    bigger.
        What we can do about it, I think, is talk about, as we
    mentioned, lifelong learning. I think instilling a sort of a
    dynamic concept into this. Understand you are going to
    constantly throughout your career having to be up-skilling
    yourself, constantly learning and looking toward the next
    position.
        I was heartened by the chair's comment that we spend a ton
    of money right now on workforce training programs, but, as I
    think it was Professor Harris' testimony, it is scattered among
    so many different programs that serve different constituencies.
    Is there a way to look at and spend--you know, if we are
    spending this much money, can we spend it more wisely and more
    effectively? That is one thing I would certainly endorse taking
    a close look at.
        Mr. Watkins. Thanks. And, like you mentioned, it is not
    just low wage or minimal skill/no skill labor. We are starting
    to see this expand to banking and accounting and other fields.
        I am particularly interested in the example that you
    brought up in the healthcare industry with regards to AI. And
    AI has the ability to provide workers with the opportunity to
    focus more on face-to-face--
        Mr. Paretti. Yes.
        Mr. Watkins.--and less repetitive work. So what sectors
    embrace the mindset versus sectors that one will attempt to
    cling to the status quo?
        Mr. Paretti. Well, I mean, I think those sectors that don't
    embrace the mindset are going to find that it is going to smack
    them in the face one way or the other. To some extent, the
    automation in TIDE is going to be somewhat inevitable. What we
    can do is prepare ourselves for it.
        You mentioned healthcare--I think Mr. Guthrie talked about
    that as well--as a great opportunity for particularly
    traditionally undervalued skills, and this is interesting. We
    talk about the disparate impacts of TIDE. One positive is that
    it is largely expected that TIDE will favor women workers and
    female workers as opposed to male, because so many of the
    skills that were traditionally undervalued--social skills,
    empathy, interaction, the things that lead to face-to-face
    time--those are going to be more and more in demand as routine,
    rote, sort of easy-to-do and noncomplex tasks are replaced by
    automation. So I think those are opportunities there.
        I see it in my law firm. I mean, I was an associate 20
    years ago, and one of your first things you did for the first
    year of your career was sit in a room with boxes of documents
    and look for anything that looked different. So much of that
    can be done automated now that we no longer need to have folks
    doing that. So it frees up associates to be working at a higher
    level and ultimately moving.
        But, yeah, I think the thought that this is simply going to
    be, oh, it is the folks at the drugstore or in the fast food
    restaurants who are going to be displaced, it is much larger
    than that.
        Mr. Watkins. Thank you.
        I yield the balance of my time, Madam Chair.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you. Did you want to yield to
    anyone in particular?
        No. Okay.
        Mr. Watkins. No, ma'am.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        Okay. The gentleman from Connecticut, Mr. Courtney.
        Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for holding this
    hearing and to the witnesses for being here this morning.
        Professor Harris, I just want to go back to one of your
    comments about the fact that a creative way to address this
    problem is to use the Pell Grant program to be available for
    nondegree credential programs. The good news is we just voted
    out of committee the reauthorization of the Higher Education
    Act a few weeks ago, and section 4013 actually embraced that
    concept for the first time. Again, we are opening up Pell
    Grants to nondegree programs.
        And, again, just for the record, Madam Chairwoman, I just
    want to enter into the record section 4013 from the CAA so that
    we can again--
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you. Without objection.
        Mr. Courtney.--make it a part of the record.
        [The information follows:]

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        Mr. Courtney. However, one point which there was a little
    bit of a dustup during the markup was on the question of, you
    know, which programs should actually be allowed to use public
    dollars. Again, the section which I just referenced was careful
    to make sure that it was WIOA-certified programs, again,
    programs which have kind of--you know, we have run the traps on
    to make sure they are not junk certificates.
        And I was wondering, again, if you could just sort of, you
    know, just comment on whether or not that is the right
    approach, to just make sure we are not indiscriminately opening
    up, you know, public dollars to programs which may not provide
    anything of value.
        Mr. Harris. Yes. I think that is--I think the committee got
    it exactly right. We need to ensure that the programs that are
    funded with Pell Grant money--and I would say not just Pell
    Grant money, but all public money--are actually delivering
    training and credentials that have value in the labor market
    for workers, preferably paired with career pathways, advice,
    and guidance that allows those credentials to actually turn
    directly into a job. So I think that is exactly right.
        The only point that I would add about Pell Grants is that I
    think it is exactly right to open it up to nondegree
    credentials, but that means we need more money, because,
    otherwise, you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. And what I would
    rather do is let's help Peter and Paul get the training and
    education that they need. So let's expand the funding, the
    appropriations for Pell Grants as much as we possibly can to
    accommodate the additional influx of people using it for
    nondegree credentials.
        Mr. Courtney. Well, yesterday's minibus that actually did
    plus up to some degree Pell for the first time in years, I
    realize, but, you know, at least we are moving into positive
    territory.
        Mr. Markell, again, you talked about the registered
    apprenticeship program, which, again, I think there is very
    strong bipartisanship support for plussing or sizing it up to
    deal with the, you know, skills gap, job openings, and the
    economy there.
        However, again, to go back to the discussion we just had on
    credentialed certificate nondegree programs, it is key, isn't
    it, to make sure that apprenticeship certificates that have
    been around since the Fitzgerald Act passed in 1937 continues
    to maintain some standards to make sure that workers have
    something that is portable, and also employers know that they
    are getting something of quality? I just wonder if you could
    comment on that.
        Mr. Markell. We are really keen to see registered
    apprenticeship move into different occupations across different
    sectors. We think it is a great model. There are a lot of
    protections for employees and employers, frankly, in the
    registered apprenticeship model.
        We know things like EEOC plans are required inside of
    registered apprenticeships. We know that there are plans in
    contracts that are signed. We are seeing some--for instance, in
    the tech industry, the tech industry has decided that there are
    sort of two paths now. You can come from a fancy college or you
    can go to a registered apprenticeship, and they will put you
    into a pretty good job and give you a good career pathway.
        In healthcare, registered apprenticeships are expanding. In
    our own work, we are pushing registered apprenticeships into
    the production workforce in manufacturing, because we think
    that as technology changes and skills are pushed onto the
    production floor, you are going to see the average worker, the
    production worker, who used to just show up and hit their
    machine and do their work, starting to have tasks that are
    associated with technology.
        Registered apprenticeship is a way to codify that, to
    spread it across employers, and to make sure that everybody
    gets a fair shot at a credential that is going to be
    recognized, gives them a chance to change jobs if they want to,
    gives them a chance to move, lets employers know that they are
    getting the right skills when they get the person with that
    apprenticeship.
        Mr. Courtney. Great. Well, I know the chairwoman is very
    focused on moving this issue forward next year and, again, we
    will take your comments I am sure into consideration as we
    start that markup process.
        With that, I yield back.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        And Mr. Walker, the gentleman from North Carolina.
        Mr. Walker. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        It is no secret that American businesses across all
    industries are making automation advancements in their day-to-
    day activities. I think we would all agree with that. This is a
    reality that North Carolinians in my district face every day.
        In fact, Mr. Paretti, you previously mentioned Greensboro,
    a city in my district, as being one of the cities that has high
    automation potential.
        But the solution to ensuring that workers are prepared for
    new automation-driven jobs is not found in, in my opinion,
    additional mandates imposed on local businesses by the Federal
    Government. Our evidence shows that it is found in private-
    public partnerships that facilitate collaboration between
    employers and employees to engage in ongoing training.
        So, Mr. Paretti, we have repeatedly heard today that
    increased automation is the main cause for job displacement.
    However, the growing trends toward automation can actually have
    a positive impact on our economy. Would you agree with that or
    disagree with that?
        Mr. Paretti. Oh, I would absolutely agree. I mean, I think
    in the long run the effect on our labor market and our economy
    is going to be very positive. Productivity is increased--you
    know, all of those things--costs are lower, passed on to
    consumers--
        Mr. Walker. So this is not just abstract; you have data
    that proves this assertion. Is that fair to say?
        Mr. Paretti. Yeah. Yes, I could get that to the committee.
        Mr. Walker. You mentioned in your testimony the importance
    of offering tax incentives to encourage saving for new training
    and development, similar to a 529 savings account or 401(k).
        Can you explain what would be the benefit to displaced
    workers if they had access to these kinds of savings accounts?
        Mr. Paretti. Certainly. Two areas come to mind.
        One is just the fact of having the money set aside in a
    tax-favored way. That means, when it is time to re-skill and
    perhaps before it is time--we don't endorse the concept of you
    should wait for your job to be gone to start thinking about the
    next one. You should constantly be building your skills. And if
    you have those resources to draw on, like a lifelong learning
    account or something of that sort, that provides that for you.
        Also, done correctly, they provide a portability of
    benefits. I think one of the Members earlier mentioned the
    contingent workforce. That number is not--BLS data suggests
    that number is not growing, sort of, as quickly as the trope
    would suggest, that, oh, we are all becoming contingent
    workers. The number has actually stayed fairly static. But one
    thing that certainly contingent workers face is a problem that
    so many of our benefit systems, starting with, you know, the
    ERISA-governed plans that are within the committee's
    jurisdiction, are tied to an employer and tied to your
    employment. If you can carry some of these benefits from
    employer to employer to different jobs when you are working on
    a contingent basis, when you are working full-time, when you
    are working part-time, I think that goes a long way, too,
    towards providing, you know, a cushion there for folks.
        Mr. Walker. Where do you feel like the opposition from that
    particular perspective or approach that you just mentioned,
    where do you feel that there is opposition preventing that from
    happening?
        Mr. Paretti. Well, I mean, certainly insofar as we are
    willing to provide a tax-favored treatment of a set-aside, that
    does take resources, that is a cost. So we need to have the
    wherewithal to say, okay, are we willing to spend that money?
    Or, alternately, if we are not willing to spend new money,
    where can we find money that we are now spending in a not-so-
    productive way that might allow us to do that?
        Mr. Walker. Yeah, we might have a few of those in this
    House.
        As I stated earlier, public-private partnerships have been
    proven to address the issues related to our skills gap much
    better than the Federal Government can.
        What are some of the challenges, if you would, that you all
    face at the Emma Coalition when partnering with other
    organizations to bridge the gap between employers and
    education? Let me put it this way. What can we do in Congress
    to ease some of these burdens and further your goal?
        Mr. Paretti. Sure. Well, I think, to be frank, this hearing
    this morning is a great start towards that, because one of the
    challenges we face--2 years ago, if I had started to have this
    conversation with someone about AI and training and what the
    impact on the workforce is going to be, I might get a polite
    nod and, ``Oh, that is interesting'' and, you know, find
    someone else to talk to, but I think now we have realized that
    this is a thing. And the national dialogue that Emma was formed
    to start and to foster has already begun, as evidenced by the
    fact that we are sitting in this room.
        So one of the challenges we face is just getting employers,
    employees, and others to understand this is something that is
    going to happen and we need to be taking responsibility for it
    now. We can't try to do this from the rearview mirror. It won't
    work.
        Mr. Walker. Thank you for your expertise.
        Madam Chair, I yield back.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        The gentlelady from Oregon, Ms. Bonamici.
        Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        And thank you to all the witnesses.
        We know that entire sectors of the economy are
    transforming. I serve on the Select Committee on the Climate
    Crisis and recognize that climate change affects our economy,
    but it is also linked with the need to create good-paying jobs,
    as we see workers in the fossil-fuel industries are seeing a
    transition as we move to more clean energy resources. We need
    to make sure that those workers have the support and resources
    they need.
        But we can also look at this as a tremendous opportunity to
    create good jobs for working families through the energy and
    energy efficiency sectors, especially for those who could
    otherwise lose their positions.
        But we know that we have significant work to do. We know
    our workforce policies are currently fragmented and put the
    burden on the worker to prove the cause of their displacement
    and then navigate the resources on their own.
        So, Professor Harris, in your testimony, you talked about
    the Department of Labor's Trade Adjustment Assistance Community
    College Career Training Program, which is a really long title,
    and that provided grants mostly to community colleges but to
    some universities to support workers after the displacement and
    unemployment from the Great Recession. Of course, that program
    ended in 2018.
        So, based on your experience and third-party evaluation of
    that program, what are the most effective practices that are
    worthy of replication? And how could intermediaries help us
    accelerate training workers across multiple sectors of our
    economy?
        Mr. Harris. Well, you are right, Congresswoman, that we
    require that all of the TAACCCT grants have third-party
    evaluations. There has been a meta-analysis of the third-party
    evaluations put forward by the New America Foundation, and it
    found that the TAACCCT grants increased program completion,
    they increased credential acquisition, they increased
    employment opportunities. So they were very successful in that
    regard.
        The most important thing that they did was that they
    brought, exactly in the way that the Congressman was talking
    about, they brought together employers and community colleges
    and universities to develop programs for local and regional
    economies that would result in workers getting trained in the
    skills that would lead to in-demand jobs--
        Ms. Bonamici. In their--
        Mr. Harris.--in their economies. That is right.
        Ms. Bonamici. Right.
        Mr. Harris. So the problem was that the program was limited
    to programs for grants for workers who were trade-affected. So
    workers who were affected by climate change, we couldn't build
    a program specifically for that.
        So I think in the future what we need to think is much,
    much more broadly about dislocation from a number of sources,
    particularly and including climate change.
        Ms. Bonamici. Absolutely. Thank you.
        Mr. Markell, you noted in your testimony that the AFL-CIO's
    Commission on the Future of Work and Unions recently released a
    report about, sort of, transition assistance programs and
    avoiding displacement before it occurs. We need to make sure
    that our communities have that economic development support.
        So, based on the findings, what effective strategies can
    Congress support to help workers prepare for future
    transformation and avoid displacement? And what role will
    unions play in helping to support workers? How can we make sure
    more people have access as our economy adapts?
        Mr. Markell. What we have discovered is that the concept of
    just transition that emerged around the energy discussion is
    really applicable to all the technology transformations that we
    are having. And in order to get that right, one key factor is
    that there has to be a voice for workers and communities that
    are affected.
        We can't sit here and tell everybody what is justice for
    people that are being affected. You have to hear it from them.
    And what you will find is that people want investment driven to
    their communities; then they want the job-training
    opportunities that follow that investment.
        It is really important for workers to understand that they
    may never have a job in that same sector again, but we need to
    make all the jobs in those sectors good. That is where unions
    come in. That is where the PRO Act comes in. And it is super-
    important from labor's point of view that workers and
    communities are at the table--
        Ms. Bonamici. Absolutely.
        Mr. Markell.--as we discuss these programs, because that is
    how we are going to get the success that they desire, that they
    define for themselves.
        Ms. Bonamici. Thank you so much.
        And because votes are called, I am going to yield back the
    balance of my time.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
        The gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Grothman.
        Mr. Grothman. Sure. This topic kind of surprises me a
    little bit, because when I get around my district, the major
    fear is that we won't have enough people, you know, not the
    problem that we have a bunch of people who don't know what to
    do.
        But there is concern, and I think I will focus that concern
    particularly on three areas: on construction, on manufacturing,
    and the medical field. And I think, in all three areas, the
    problem we have is we have a shortage of people, quite frankly,
    in this country who want to work with their hands.
        You know, I think we could build more houses in my district
    if only we had more people in construction. Can't find them. I
    am told if you go into that field, within 3 or 4 years, you are
    going to be making six figures. In the medical field, again, as
    the population gets older, shortage of people.
        I am going to ask you, Mr. Paretti--or, I think there are
    two problems that are causing the shortage, or at least people
    think there are. And I am going to ask you to comment on these.
        First of all, we have too many people getting degrees. And
    Professor Harris mentioned the fact that some people are
    overpromising. I want you to address that, Mr. Paretti. Are
    universities sometimes overpromising a high wage when, in fact,
    if people got skills-based education, which frequently does not
    necessarily mean a college degree, they would be making more
    money and having more job security? Could you comment on that?
        Mr. Paretti. Sure.
        Mr. Grothman. Are universities overpromising?
        Mr. Paretti. I don't know that I would say that
    universities are overpromising as much as, generally, I think,
    the mindset has always been, if you go get a degree, if you get
    a 4-year degree, you will always do better. And there has been
    an aversion to saying that the path for everyone is not a 4-
    year degree.
        I think our community colleges, in that regard, are a
    tremendously undervalued resource in terms of developing
    skills-based learning and the sorts of things that lead to
    prosperity.
        You mentioned manufacturing. We do a lot of work with the
    National Association of Manufacturers and with their members.
    And one of the problems they face is they say, you know, when
    you say--parents don't tell their kids, ``Go get a job in the
    factory or go into manufacturing,'' because it is a mindset of
    40 years ago, where it might have been dangerous--
        Mr. Grothman. Well, I think the problem is--
        Mr. Paretti. Go ahead.
        Mr. Grothman.--we have people on this committee who talk
    about it like somehow it is a superior type of thing, to go to
    college.
        And I want you to elaborate that, as far as the job
    opportunities. Do you see people going back and getting jobs in
    what in Wisconsin we call technical colleges, I guess you call
    community colleges, that maybe got a degree in the first place
    in which they were maybe overpromised a given salary and they
    didn't get it?
        Mr. Paretti. I am sure there are some. I wouldn't want to
    rattle off or pretend to rattle off with my fingers, you know,
    what those numbers are.
        But I certainly do endorse the concept that in, whether it
    is technical or community colleges, providing those sorts of
    skills--which are necessary. You know, even what we
    traditionally call blue-collar jobs, manufacturing, it is no
    longer simply enough to be able to use your hands; you need to
    use your head as well.
        I was on the floor of a plant just outside of St. Louis
    that manufactures fuse boxes, big things you see on traffic
    lights and such, manufactures most of them in the country, in
    fact. And if I tell you, to a person, male, female, everybody
    was in front of a screen and they were working with a computer,
    not against the computer, not displaced by. But the skills were
    necessary there--
        Mr. Grothman. When you tour manufacturers, do you find
    that, even among the skilled workers they have, that too many
    of them are probably going to be retired in the next 10 years
    and, in fact, we are going to have a worker shortage?
        Mr. Paretti. Yes.
        Mr. Grothman. Okay.
        Mr. Paretti. Unequivocally.
        Mr. Grothman. And I will give you one more question. There
    is a lot of talk around here about credentialism. I think
    sometimes credentialism kind of mucks up the economy, because
    you have people who are capable of doing a job but they don't
    have the credential.
        Could you comment on this drive towards more credentialing?
    Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
        Mr. Paretti. I think knowing what is a valuable credential
    and what leads to something can be a good thing. I think to be,
    sort of, mindlessly stuck on the idea that I can't fill someone
    in this job if they don't check, you know, the following three
    boxes--you know, how many applications for employment ask do
    you have a bachelor's degree where, frankly, whether you have
    one or don't have one is not going to be relevant to the job
    that you are doing?
        So I think, sort of, a foolish reliance on simply check the
    box or, you know--
        Mr. Grothman. Do you think there is too much credentialism
    in the United States?
        Mr. Paretti. I don't. I don't think that there is too much
    credentialism. I think there may be insufficient information
    about where credentials are valuable and helpful and where it
    is simply, you know, get the next thing because it is the next
    thing.
        Mr. Grothman. I will yield my remaining 10 seconds.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        We will have one more Member, the gentleman from Michigan,
    Mr. Levin, and then we will recess until after this vote and
    whatever may come next.
        Mr. Levin. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I am delighted to
    get to ask my questions before we adjourn for votes.
        You know, friends, I am a little unusual around here. I
    spent a lot of time working with one of you in the movement to
    raise up workers in this country. I am the only Member of
    Congress who used to run a State workforce system. I worked
    with another one of you in an earlier version of that. And then
    I also have worked a lot in the clean energy sector.
        And so I want to put those three things together and ask
    you about what I believe must be the greatest technological
    disruption ahead, and that is to deal with climate change. We
    have to move very, very fast and very, very comprehensively to
    transform everything about the way we build things, manufacture
    things, move around, live, work, all of our buildings, all of
    our transportation.
        I see tremendous opportunities here for the United States,
    for great jobs, for the economy. But let's be honest; we have a
    horrible track record of dealing with workers who are displaced
    by technological change or affected by it. And here, the energy
    sector is an area where we have great jobs, in a lot of cases,
    people who have been through registered apprenticeships, who
    have amazing skills and pride in their work.
        So talk to me about how this body, the Congress of the
    United States, should deal with what we need to do to make sure
    the workers most affected by any changes involved here are
    right at the center of the table in discussing, you know,
    displacement due to climate change and how we can best train
    people for new jobs and honor the work they have been doing.
        Do you want to start, Professor Harris?
        Mr. Harris. So I share your optimism about what a move to
    respond to climate change and to green jobs can mean for job
    creation. I think it will be a net job creator, very
    significantly so. And they will be good-quality, middle-skill
    jobs.
        And I share your view that workers are deeply, deeply
    concerned about the transition. To the extent that they are
    looking at all, they look at the jobs they have, which are, for
    many of them, very good, middle-skill, unionized jobs, and they
    look at the sectors into which they think these jobs are going
    to flow. They see very few unions. They see wages that are not
    as good. They don't see benefits, necessarily. And they wonder,
    is my future going to be a low-wage, low-skill future?
        And what you can do--and I want to do this at a very high
    level so others can comment. But what Congress can do is to not
    just acknowledge that is true but to respond by ensuring that
    workers can transition into good-quality jobs as seamlessly and
    at low cost as possible to them.
        And that means providing them with training, providing them
    with benefits, providing them with income support, providing
    them with career pathways, pointing to the jobs, helping the
    industries that are creating the jobs to hire those workers,
    and passing the PRO Act so those workers can organize.
        Mr. Levin. Mr. Markell, do you want to jump in? What are
    your thoughts here?
        Mr. Markell. Well, there is so much to be said here. I
    think one of the defining features of a clean-energy economy is
    that spending that used to be on fuels is spending on
    manufactured items. So we need to make sure we are attracting
    the clean-energy manufacturing sector to the United States so
    that we can get the full benefits of the clean-energy economy.
        I spend a lot of time thinking about and working on just
    transition issues. For workers and communities that are losing
    jobs, at this point primarily coal communities where coal is
    mined or where coal was burned to make power, the key factor is
    driving investment to those communities to create new jobs.
        Training, sorry to say to Members of this committee,
    training does not create jobs. Jobs create the need for
    training. And to the extent that we are going to provide a just
    transition for coal communities, we need to drive investment to
    those communities, and we need to make sure that those workers
    understand that, whatever sector they worked in, they are going
    to have a good job.
        Mr. Levin. Ms. Gattman, you have a lot of experience in
    this. What are your thoughts?
        Ms. Gattman. Sure, Congressman.
        So one of the things that we looked at, we did a report on
    outdoor jobs and the outdoor-job sector in Washington State.
    And one of the things that we recognized from that particular
    report is we were missing some of the signaling mechanisms to
    show that some of those green jobs, those outdoor-recreation-
    type jobs, were in demand.
        And one of the areas that was really lacking was having
    occupational data available about the jobs that different
    employees were using. So, in that particular sector, the
    employers were saying, ``Hey, we really need folks,'' but the
    administrative data was not showing the need for that
    particular sector, so we weren't signaling the need for
    training and education for that.
        Mr. Levin. All right. Thanks. My time has expired. I
    appreciate you all.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        And we will be back after votes. Thank you again.
        Is that going to be all right for everybody, to stay with
    us?
        Great. Thank you.
        [Recess.]
        [12:06 p.m.]
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you all for your patience. We
    appreciate it.
        I want to turn now to Dr. Foxx, the Ranking Member of the
    Education and Labor Committee.
        Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.
        Mr. Paretti, although displacement rates have gone down in
    recent years, it is inevitable we will need to prepare for
    workforce displacement as our society continues to experience
    technological changes and shifts in employer priorities. While
    it is important for us to attempt to minimize the challenges
    associated with employer innovation, we cannot shackle
    continued economic growth that provides more jobs and better
    wages in the long run.
        Can you please discuss some of the benefits we might see as
    our Nation increases the use of automation? Given these
    dynamics, why is it important to be proactive in seeking out
    solutions?
        Mr. Paretti. Sure. I think in the long term we will see
    quite a few--you know, a significant amount of benefit from
    automation, artificial intelligence. And that starts with
    increased productivity, which can lead to increased wages,
    increased spending.
        So the quality of jobs should go up as more routine jobs
    are perhaps displaced. I am not suggesting we should encourage
    that very quickly, but I think, if it is going to happen, we
    need to be prepared for it and to do it.
        I, too, would be concerned with, sort of, shackling
    ourselves to an older, outdated model. I mean, the face of work
    has changed so dramatically and is changing so dramatically
    that, you know, the words I hear most when I talk to folks in
    this space are things like ``agile,'' ``nimble,'' ``dynamic,''
    being able to respond and provide. And I think that is what--
    you know, employers have every incentive to do that too. The
    last thing you want, you know, is to lose valued employees and
    valued knowledge.
        Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much.
        I was thinking, as you were talking, about the turn of the
    century, when cars were created, and thinking, probably a lot
    of people thought it was the end of the world, we were going to
    stop making wagons, stop making buggy whips, and things like
    that. But look at the magnificent numbers of jobs that came
    around as a result of cars being created in our culture.
        Mr. Paretti, you described in your testimony the example of
    Cargill, a company who focuses on upskilling their employees
    and was then able to provide higher skilled positions to 90
    percent of those same employees.
        This seems outside the norm of the typical zero-sum
    narrative surrounding displacement. What value is there for
    companies who focus on these types of workforce development
    efforts in the face of potential disruption? Is this something
    more companies can do? And can most companies do this?
        Mr. Paretti. Well, obviously, each company's response is
    going to be individualized to itself, but Cargill, which I
    discuss in my testimony, does offer a great example. They were
    going through a plant closure. They recognized that--and for a
    period of time, it was then going to upskill and automate the
    plant.
        They realized that it would be difficult for them to
    attract jobs, you know, people to fill these new jobs that were
    going to be created, and they had a valuable workforce, many of
    whom had invested time, energy, and resources in the company.
        They made the decision that, during that closure, they
    provided access to training programs, they partnered with a
    local community college in doing so, and, at the end of the
    day, yes, were able to bring back something like 90 percent of
    the workforce, most of them in better-paying and higher-paying
    positions, more skilled positions.
        Is that the norm? I would hesitate to say it is typical. Is
    it something that we might aspire to and encourage and foster
    companies to make those sorts of investments? To the extent
    that is within your power, our power, I would certainly hope
    so.
        Ms. Foxx. Well, I think, again, over the years, as you say,
    it really is in the interest of the employer to do whatever
    possible to keep their business going. They face the same kinds
    of challenges if they are not able to help the employees
    upskill.
        I think too often in this setting here we hear such
    negative things about employers and how they are taking
    advantage of employees and don't care about them, so I think
    having good examples like that is really important.
        And my experience is that is what is happening all over the
    country. Employers understand, if they want to stay in
    business, number one, they have to treat their employees well,
    and they have to plan for the future. And I am not sure that
    there is a great understanding on some of our colleagues of the
    very positive way that employers face these challenges.
        So thank you very much.
        And thank you, Madam Chairman.
        Mr. Paretti. Thank you, Doctor.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
        Dr. Adams, the gentlelady from North Carolina.
        Ms. Adams. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis, Ranking Member
    Smucker, for convening the hearing today.
        And thank you all for your testimony.
        U.S. investment in the public workforce system is sorely
    inadequate and has declined sharply in recent decades. For
    example, the National Skills Coalition finds that, since 2001,
    WIOA funding has been cut by 40 percent, career and technical
    education funding by 29 percent, and adult basic education by
    almost 15 percent.
        The United States spends about 0.1 percent of gross
    domestic product, or GDP, on workforce development, compared to
    about six times as much in other developed nations.
        Mr. Harris, I will start with you. Why has public
    investment in workforce development declined so sharply in
    recent decades? And what are the consequences of this reduced
    investment?
        Mr. Harris. Congresswoman, it is certainly not because we
    don't have a need. We absolutely have demand among workers for
    these services. I think, frankly, that it is a failure of
    political will. It is really incumbent upon Congress to provide
    those resources.
        Let me add one additional statistic to the ones that you
    cited, all of which are exactly on point. Among the countries
    that are members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation
    and Development, 28 of them, we are second-to-last in public
    investment per GDP. Mexico is the only country that does worse.
    We are behind Latvia, Estonia, and Poland in our investment in
    workforce development.
        So I agree with the import of your question. We need to do
    dramatically more to invest in these things in order for
    workers to get the training they need. They can't finance it
    themselves.
        Ms. Adams. Right. Thank you very much.
        One of the things that I have heard from our county
    workforce boards in North Carolina is that there isn't enough
    of a focus by state and local policymakers on finding work for
    displaced workers and that the framework which gives youth
    apprenticeships, needed skills, and training is not well-
    aligned for that purpose, particularly since WIOA is
    underfunded and not fully implemented.
        Ms. Gattman, your State's Future of Work Task Force report
    recommends supporting the workforce board's request for
    additional funding for incumbent worker training. So can you
    explain the focus on incumbent worker training? For example,
    did the task force identify the lack of private-sector
    investment in incumbent training? And what are the barriers to
    that investment that make public investment necessary?
        Ms. Gattman. Sure. Thank you, Congresswoman.
        So one of the things--it wasn't necessarily a lack of
    private-sector investment in incumbent worker training, but the
    task force did recognize that many States put money into--put a
    lot of State money into this game and in a lot of flexible
    ways, which allowed for some innovative approaches. Incumbent
    worker training is a co-invested model. It is flexible to
    employer needs. And then it ideally allows them to upskill
    existing talent to sustain and scale growth.
        This is then complemented--one of the things we have been
    trying to do a lot more in our State--complementing this by a
    backfill component, where our public systems can then help
    those employers who are upskilling their employees find the
    right talent to fill those often entry-level positions.
        Some of the new technologies that can eliminate or greatly
    reduce the need for skilled workers can also be of great
    interest to businesses who struggle to fill positions. We did
    find that in rural communities without adequate education and
    training resources, technology can be a really enticing way to
    address some of their workforce concerns.
        So, you know, we want to create the right conditions for
    businesses to upskill their workers, rather than choose to
    automate those jobs, to address recruitment or retention
    issues. So we believe public funding can definitely make a
    difference there, but it certainly should have a co-investment
    model of some sort so there is employer participation.
        Ms. Adams. Thank you very much.
        Let me move quickly. Mr. Markell, why has employers'
    investment in worker training and skill development decreased?
    What can be done to change employers' incentives to invest in
    their workers?
        Mr. Markell. Boy, that is the gazillion-dollar question in
    a lot of respects, because unions really go hard at employers,
    trying to bargain money for training programs. They understand
    why training is important to their career. And the
    understanding that people cannot pay for their own training,
    that they don't have the information they need to decide where
    they should be trained to work, they should try to be trained,
    really points to the idea that we need public investment in
    this area. If we are going to put everybody on a level playing
    field, we have got to meet people where they are, and that is
    going to take cash.
        Ms. Adams. Great. Thank you very much.
        And, Madam Chairman, I am out of time, and I yield back.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
        The gentleman from California, Mr. Takano.
        Mr. Takano. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis and Ranking Member
    Smucker, for this important hearing on the future of work.
        This is not a question of, will displacement happen? The
    question is, when will it happen? And when it does happen, we
    need to be prepared to provide the American workers with
    resources to help them during what will inevitably be a hard
    time for workers and their families.
        In 2007, we experienced the worst economic recession since
    the Great Depression. And in Riverside, California, my
    district, the unemployment rate reached a peak of 14.4 percent
    in 2010. This was common throughout the country. In some
    months, there were as many as 800,000 jobs lost. I am sure we
    all remember that time.
        Mr. Harris, when you assumed your role as Deputy Secretary
    at the Labor Department in 2009, you had inherited the worst
    economic crisis since the Great Depression. I don't need to
    tell you what a heavy toll displacement during a recession can
    exact on workers, their families, communities, and the economy.
        Your job was to get millions of people back to work. You
    had certain tools to work with back then, including existing
    workforce development laws, unemployment insurance, and, of
    course, the Recovery Act. The efforts of the Obama
    administration over its 8 years put us on an upward trajectory
    of job growth which continues to this day.
        But the next recession, while unpredictable, we can
    reasonably assume it is going to happen. So, Mr. Harris, what
    changes should policymakers be making to our workforce system
    today to prepare for the next recession in order to both avert
    displacement to the greatest possible extent and to adequately
    address displacement when it does occur?
        Mr. Harris. Well, Congressman, you are exactly right,
    recessions don't just temporarily throw people out of jobs;
    they permanently destroy a large number of jobs, and workers
    are dislocated and don't have any place to go back to. They
    need time and they need income so that they can acquire the
    skills and knowledge that they need and that they can do the
    job search that they need to be able to do.
        They need programs that will quickly and efficiently and
    effectively move them into new demand jobs in their economy.
    And they also need help understanding which jobs they should
    get into and what training and credentials they need in order
    to get into those jobs.
        And let me just say, your reference to the Recovery Act, I
    think, is very important. President Obama's Recovery Act did
    exactly what was needed. It doubled the money that the Labor
    Department had for WIOA programs and the Wagner-Peyser
    Employment Service. It provided extended unemployment
    compensation. It created the TAACCCT grants that I was talking
    about before. We need all of those things in place for the next
    recession.
        Let me also say, we don't have to say that there is a
    skills gap to say that we need job training. There is no skills
    gap. That is a false argument. And people are pointing to the
    JOLTS study to show that there is a skills gap. That is not
    what that study shows.
        If there was a skills gap, we would see dramatically
    increasing real wages, including in the industries that
    complain the most that they can't find workers. We are not
    seeing that. We would see employers dramatically increasing
    training and investment in job training. We are not seeing
    that. We would see them buying labor-saving devices. Business
    investment is down in the United States.
        We would see them demanding that their current workers
    increase their number of hours worked. That is not happening.
    We are not seeing median or average hours worked increasing.
    And there are 4 million involuntary part-time workers in the
    United States right now. They want to work full-time. Their
    employers are not employing them full-time. That is not what
    happens when you have a skills shortage.
        So I really dislike this argument that there is a skills
    gap, because it suggests that it is workers' fault. If only
    they would get the training, everything would be just fine. It
    is not workers' fault. It is the kind of displacement that you
    were talking about, the dislocation that doesn't just happen
    from recessions, it happens from multiple causes. And that is
    what we need to be prepared for now and in preparation for the
    next recession.
        Mr. Takano. Given that answer, what tools can Congress
    provide to state and local lawmakers that will--or what tools
    can we generally, I mean, not just with the State and local
    lawmakers, but what tools can we avail policymakers out there
    to avert the brunt of a recession?
        Mr. Harris. They need a lot more money. They need the
    availability of Pell grants, but they need more money in that
    system. They need a lot more money in the WIOA system.
        They need help from us to mandate credential transparency.
    We need a radical transparency movement in credentials so that
    the bad credentials, the useless credentials that workers are
    buying that aren't leading anywhere can drop out of the system.
        And we need a program like the TAACCCT program, not just
    organized around climate change, but organized much more
    broadly than that so that we can bring employers and training
    providers together to build the programs that we need for
    workers to get the skills for in-demand jobs in their
    communities.
        Mr. Takano. Madam Chair, might I ask one more question, or
    should I yield back?
        Chairwoman Davis. I think we are just going to go on to the
    next--
        Mr. Takano. Okay. I will yield back, Madam Chair.
        Chairwoman Davis. Yeah. Thank you very much.
        We now turn to the ranking chair of the subcommittee, Mr.
    Smucker, the gentleman from Pennsylvania.
        Mr. Smucker. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Professor Harris, in your written testimony--I would like
    to, sort of, understand your view on the labor outlook, because
    it is different than Mr. Paretti's view. I am going to come to
    Mr. Paretti as well. But you say that you see no evidence of
    loss of employment triggered by new technologies like
    artificial intelligence. You do not believe that there will be
    a massive displacement. Am I correct on that?
        Mr. Harris. No. My argument is that the jobs apocalypse
    that people talk about coming from AI, where we will see a
    decline in total employment in the United States, I don't
    believe we are going to see a decline in total employment.
        I think there is no question that AI and other
    technologies, along with a long list of other causes, cause
    displacement to workers, so I think Mr. Paretti and I largely
    agree. I may not put as much emphasis on--
        Mr. Smucker. So you don't see a decline in employment; you
    just see a change in the type of employment.
        Mr. Harris. Right. Well, I see workers being thrown out of
    jobs, but I don't see total employment in the economy declining
    because of AI. Some people are arguing that. I am not saying
    Mr. Paretti is arguing that, but there are a lot of people
    arguing that. I don't think it is true.
        Mr. Smucker. Yeah.
        Mr. Paretti, you mentioned in your testimony several times
    that 85 percent of all jobs that will exist in 2040 have not
    yet been created.
        Mr. Paretti. Certainly a substantial number, yes.
        Mr. Smucker. And so I think maybe you are saying the same
    thing in a different way. But you also say that the situation
    is not necessarily as dire--
        Mr. Paretti. Right.
        Mr. Smucker.--as the statistics may lead us to believe. So
    I just wonder if you could expand on that a little bit.
        Mr. Paretti. Sure. Happy to.
        And I will note, you know, damn it, Seth, I was looking to
    have a fight with you. It is not an Ed and Labor Committee
    hearing without a donnybrook, but we keep agreeing.
        I don't think--I wholeheartedly--we are not looking at the
    jobs apocalypse, where, oh, my goodness, overnight we are going
    to have all of these folks who have nothing. I do think, if we
    don't prepare for it, we risk that possibility. You know, the
    number is great, but, at the same time, you will be seeing
    increased opportunities. Total employment will increase. The
    type of work will be different, in some instances.
        You know, easy examples: In hotels now, you might no longer
    have someone who--more and more, particularly in big hotels,
    you have check-in kiosks where you can--beep, beep, beep, beep.
    You don't have to stand in the line. They give you your room
    key, and you are all set. So you maybe need fewer folks working
    the check-in desk.
        What you need more of, particularly if you are now able to
    service more guests at your hotel, are folks in the concierge
    office or folks in the guest services offices--higher-skilled
    positions, more human-focused, more human-facing, skills that
    can be readily attained. You may not have them if currently
    your job is checking in folks and only using that system, but
    you certainly can attain those skills.
        And if your employer is good, they are going to want to
    work with you to attain those skills. I would rather--
        Mr. Smucker. Sure.
        Mr. Paretti.--take an employee who I know has done good
    work in this position and train them in--
        Mr. Smucker. That leads me--and I am sorry, I only have 2
    more minutes. So it does lead me to my next question. Maybe it
    is more of a comment.
        You know, I have a little trouble with the narrative in the
    hearing today that the Federal Government is really the entity
    that is meant to solve this problem. Like, we should certainly
    be part of that solution; we should be looking ahead to try and
    understand what is going to happen and make sure that we have
    policies in place that provide the best pathway for employers
    to change jobs or to enter the workforce for the first time.
        But I believe in free enterprise. I believe that our
    capitalist system has a way of addressing needs and has done so
    for many, many decades.
        So I guess my question to you, Mr. Paretti--and if we have
    time, we will allow others to answer it as well, but--what is
    the role of the private sector?
        I know that a lot of businesses are investing in their
    employees. So, for instance, Chairwoman Foxx mentioned earlier
    a company. I know that Uber recently--I just learned they
    provide access to fully funded education to more than 250,000
    drivers. Starbucks does--
        Mr. Paretti. Sure.
        Mr. Smucker.--a similar kind of thing. There are businesses
    all over.
        What is the role of the private sector, the business world,
    in ensuring that employees or that workers are ready to meet
    the jobs that will be coming down the pike?
        Mr. Paretti. Sure. A couple of thoughts there.
        First, insofar as, you know, employers are job creators and
    you need a workforce to do them, it is in your economic self-
    interest and best interest to attract and retain a talented
    workforce.
        You mentioned Uber, and they allow drivers a certain
    credit. I understand that is actually even transferable. If I
    want to work part-time and be driving for Uber so that I can
    give these credits to my child or to my spouse or something,
    that is something they also do.
        I wholeheartedly agree--and I think Ms. Gattman here--and
    her work is great testimony--this is not a top-down solution. I
    don't think that the Federal Government should be the ones to
    say, ``Here is how we are going to fix this, and we are going
    to push this down onto you.'' I think they can foster
    innovation. I think they can remove, you know, roadblocks along
    the way and foster a climate.
        I recommend in my testimony, I discuss something called the
    AI Jobs Act, which has broad, bipartisan support and really, I
    think, an appropriate role for the Federal Government, which is
    to say: Okay, what can we learn--we have the resources to learn
    here and to, you know, give folks information that they can
    then take on the local level, on the State level.
        The Congresswoman who left recently said, you know, too
    often the States aren't doing it. I think the States are doing
    better than the feds. And I think, in some instances, locals
    are doing better than the States. Not in Washington.
        But I think that all of those are things that we should be
    fostering. And that is where you all and where the Federal
    Government and where Congress, I think, can help us most.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
        I now turn to Chairman Scott, the gentleman from Virginia.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you very much.
        And I want to thank our witnesses. This has been very
    helpful.
        And I will start with questions to Ms. Gattman.
        The WIOA boards should be in the middle of this. Can you
    tell us what the WIOA boards are doing in terms of forecasting
    future job needs?
        And particularly they are relevant because that forecast
    would focus on the local job needs, where the jobs will
    actually be needed. Could you talk about that a little bit?
        Ms. Gattman. Sure. Thank you, Chairman.
        So one of the things that we work really closely with our
    partner agency, the Employment Security Department, we don't
    always know what credentials are in demand, so that is one
    factor. But we are using States' unemployment insurance data to
    determine which occupations are in demand.
        And so, with this information, the State provides what is
    called our Demand/Decline List. And that is set up by region,
    and it shows not only which occupations are in demand but also
    how much they pay in particular areas of the State.
    Understanding which occupations are in demand, of course,
    allows our State residents to use a program that we have that
    the workforce board--it is our website Career Bridge, which
    allows them to find the education and training that they need
    to find that particular job.
        Career Bridge is a public-facing website. We had over 7
    million page views last year. So, you know, that is something--
    we really promote that as an option for anyone looking for
    particular education and training opportunities to find which
    occupations are in demand and then find those local training
    opportunities.
        Mr. Scott. Yeah. Are most WIOA boards doing this?
        Ms. Gattman. No. Our Career Bridge website is actually
    pretty unique in the Nation for the amount of detail it has,
    because it also provides that performance-results aspect,
    where, for over half the programs, we can give you performance
    results of how the participants fared in the various programs.
        Mr. Scott. Now, one of the concerns we have is we may be
    training--the number of people who are being trained for the
    jobs of the future may be totally insufficient to address the
    need. I mean, are we training thousands, where the need is in
    the millions? Are we anywhere close to addressing the need?
        Ms. Gattman. You know, I will say that is one of those
    issues where, you know, we just don't know. The future of work
    is evolving so quickly that, you know, we are all doing our
    best to forecast what we are going to see and what jobs we need
    training for.
        And, you know, some of that is hampered by the lack of data
    that we have available. And I spoke about occupational data as
    one area where we do have a gap. And knowing that information
    would allow us to better forecast what is available.
        Mr. Scott. Several of you have mentioned the Trade
    Adjustment Assistance Community College Career Training, and we
    have also talked about the fact that students aren't able to
    fully fund their transition.
        Can somebody talk about the cost of the program, how it is
    funded, and who pays the tuition, and how successful they are?
        Mr. Harris. The TAACCCT program was $2 billion over 4
    years, spent out over a total--until 2018. It is all spent down
    now. It was capacity-building money. It was not supposed to pay
    for intuition.
        So it created programs at community colleges and
    universities in partnership with employers. It built curricula,
    hired instructors, learned about how to work with employers,
    included employers in the development of those programs. And as
    I said earlier in the hearing, extremely successful. But now
    there is no more money.
        Mr. Scott. Well, how do you measure success?
        Mr. Harris. Measured success based on credential
    attainment, employment outcomes, program completion. All of
    those went up with the program.
        And, also, there was a qualitative study done that showed
    that employers who were involved in the TAACCCT program had
    much, much, much higher-quality engagement with their community
    colleges than they would have otherwise.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Markell, you mentioned the PRO Act. How
    would passage of the PRO Act help job policy?
        Mr. Markell. I am sorry. Would you--
        Mr. Scott. You mentioned the Protecting the Right to
    Organize Act. How would passage of that help developing job
    policy?
        Mr. Markell. So, when workers have a voice and when they
    have institutional power, they are able to achieve better
    adjustments and better outcomes, whether it is through
    upskilling of current jobs or trying to move on to new jobs and
    find retraining money and programs that will allow them to be
    more valued in the marketplace.
        Without an institutional voice, workers are out there on
    their own with not enough information, with not enough
    organized power to effect their situation. So the passage of
    the PRO Act opens up all kinds of possibilities. The passage of
    the PRO Act will make more space on climate than anything we
    could do, because it will assure workers that the next job they
    have is going to be a good job.
        It is an extremely important piece of legislation that will
    rebalance the labor market and give workers a chance to improve
    their situation.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        The gentlelady from Nevada, Mrs. Lee.
        Mrs. Lee. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Thank you all for being here.
        This is a particularly important issue for me, as I
    represent Las Vegas and Henderson area, and Las Vegas happens
    to be the U.S. city most at risk of losing jobs to automation.
    And, in fact, according to a University of Redlands study, in
    the next 20 years, 65 percent of the city's jobs could be
    automated.
        Mr. Markell, in a recent report of the AFL-CIO's Commission
    on the Future of Work and Unions, it recognizes just how
    central workers of color and women are to the future of the
    Nation's workforce and labor movement. People of color will
    constitute the majority of the U.S. population by 2045, and, in
    just 5 years, women are predicted to make up more than half of
    all union members.
        A number of organizations have conducted research that
    demonstrates that workers of color are more vulnerable to
    displacement, particularly from automation. Similarly, research
    shows that women workers are more concentrated in those jobs
    that are exposed to technological changes than men, such as
    cashiers, secretaries, and bookkeepers.
        The pain of displacement for these workers will be
    compounded by the preexisting racial and gender wage gaps they
    already face.
        In my home State, unions have negotiated with casinos,
    taking into account the potential effects of automation on
    workers.
        And I would like to ask you a two-part question, Mr.
    Markell. First, what particular protections against
    displacement and its harms can the labor movement offer to
    workers of color and women? And, secondly, what strategies have
    the AFL-CIO and other labor groups adopted to better address
    the causes of displacement that affect these groups of workers?
        Mr. Markell. Thank you, Congresswoman.
        As you know, Las Vegas is home to one of the premier labor
    management training organizations in the country, the Culinary
    Academy of Las Vegas. They are a partner of the Working for
    America Institute.
        And UNITE HERE!, the union--it is Local 226 there--has done
    exemplary bargaining, both with the casinos and with Marriott,
    around advance notice and upstream involvement of the workers
    in deciding how technology change is going to be implemented in
    the workplace.
        And with those workforces being, in both cases, majority-
    women and majority-people-of-color, it is that worker voice
    that gives them a fair shake. It is really important to avoid
    displacement by making sure that we are understanding how the
    tasks at these workplaces are changing as technology comes in.
        With the organized voice that UNITE HERE! provides, with
    the contract provisions that are available to make sure that
    the workforce is informed and has a chance at training, we do
    the best to avoid displacement.
        Union contracts are the best protection against disparities
    in the workplace. For example, the wage gap that women suffer.
    There is no wage gap in a union contract. It says, you do job
    X, you get pay Y. It doesn't matter, race, creed, or color, who
    you are.
        And so, for workers to be able to understand that, when
    they have a collective voice, they are on a level playing field
    with the entire workforce, that is the--it just means so much
    to people in their jobs.
        Secondly, the building trades are a great example. They are
    continually scanning the environment for new technologies. They
    are almost paranoid about understanding that they need to be on
    the cutting edge of whatever new technologies are coming in.
        I always give the example of the IBEW. Solar power is
    gaining in the United States. In Las Vegas, across the
    Southeast, solar is become increasingly competitive. For years,
    the IBEW has incorporated solar technician training into its
    electrician's apprenticeship so that, as you are becoming a
    journeyperson electrician, you become skilled and valuable in
    all assets of solar installation.
        That is the kind of incumbent worker protection that can
    prevent job loss, that is on the cutting edge of technology,
    and that we are making investments in, over $1.5 billion a year
    in private investments, in the building trades system.
        Mrs. Lee. Thank you.
        Thank you, and I yield.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        And we will now go to Mr. Trone, the gentleman from
    Maryland.
        Mr. Trone. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis and Ranking Member
    Smucker, for holding this hearing today.
        I want to talk about an issue that is very important to my
    constituents: mass layoffs and plant closures.
        Luke Paper Mill was the center of life in Luke, Maryland,
    for the last 131 years. When the mill closed in June, it left
    675 hardworking men and women of the United Steelworkers
    without a job and affected nearly 2,000 others employed by that
    business in the community.
        This summer, I learned firsthand the shortcomings of the
    Worker Adjustment and Retraining Act, or the WARN Act, with the
    closing of Luke. This is why I joined Congressman Tim Ryan in
    introducing legislation that would strengthen the WARN Act to
    give workers and communities the notice they need to best
    prepare for when the unimaginable happens.
        The Fair Warning Act would increase the number of companies
    required to give employers impending notice and also require
    employers an additional 30 days' notice prior to mass layoffs
    and direct the State to establish a rapid response committee so
    employees can quickly get training, support services they need
    to prepare for the job loss.
        Mr. Markell, how can we better advance notice site closings
    and mass layoffs--how can that better notice serve impacted
    workers?
        And, also, what are some of the typical benefits and
    services available for those impacted by site closings and mass
    layoffs? And talk about why they are so important.
        Mr. Markell. Thank you, Congressman.
        That paper mill closure is a tragedy. I met the president
    of that Steelworkers local at the Maryland State AFL-CIO
    convention.
        Rapid response is--of course we need better notice and we
    need plans for workplaces that we think are at risk. That paper
    mill was threatened by foreign competition, unfair competition,
    in many respects. And so fixing our trade laws is a big part of
    what we need to do.
        We also need to identify facilities that are at risk way
    ahead of when we think that they might be actually faced with a
    business decision. So, in the paper industry in the United
    States, there have been closures all over the United States for
    many, many years. And so it was predictable that when a new
    owner came in there was going to be a cost squeeze and that
    investment could be lacking.
        If we go upstream way before we think that there might be a
    business decision, we can address the competitive position of
    that facility. We can help them afford new capital investments,
    if that is what is needed. And I think that, had we taken a
    look at that mill a year, a year and a half ago, we could have
    made moves that would put it in a position to stay open.
        Mr. Trone. Thank you.
        Dr. Harris, many former Luke Mill employees are still
    unemployed and trying to get back up on their feet. I was glad
    to see in your testimony discussion today around intensive
    services, or what WOIA refers to as individual career services,
    which include comprehensive assessments, job search activities,
    development of career service plans, one-on-one career
    counseling, case management, et cetera.
        Can you speak to why these services are so important and
    what evidence we have to show that they are a good return on
    investment?
        Mr. Harris. Yes. Thank you, Congressman.
        Let me say, there is a lot of evidence that they work.
    There was a gold standard study done for the Labor Department.
    We hired Mathematica and some of its partners to do a study. It
    showed that intensive services increased median annual earnings
    between $3,700 and $7,100 for workers, mostly because it gets
    them into jobs much more quickly.
        And, also, there is a lot of evidence from the Reemployment
    Eligibility Assessments, which is in the UI system, which are
    now called RESEAs, we did a series of studies, three studies,
    that showed that they also work. It reduces the length of time
    of unemployment. It reduces the amount of unemployment benefits
    that are collected. Workers get into jobs much, much more
    quickly.
        So I think that intensive services should be available to
    absolutely everyone, not limited to people who are unemployed,
    not limited to people who are on the verge of being thrown out
    of jobs. It should be available to incumbent workers. It should
    be available to people who are entering into the labor market.
    It is for people who are out of the labor market, to help them
    get back into the labor market. It really helps to give them a
    map through a very complicated field of jobs and credentials
    and skills so that they can figure out what is going to work
    for me.
        Mr. Trone. Thank you.
        I yield back.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
        I wanted to just remind all the Members that we have until
    January 6 to submit materials for the record.
        Chairwoman Davis. And I certainly want to thank all of our
    witnesses today.
        What we have heard is very valuable. I think there is, you
    know, a lot of good work that has been done, tremendously so.
    And on the other hand, as I said earlier, sometimes we have to
    kind of rethink, because we are in a new time that really
    requires a different perspective.
        And, at this point, I wanted to recognize the distinguished
    Ranking Member for his closing statement.
        Mr. Smucker. Thank you. And I would like to thank each of
    the witnesses as well for being here today to talk about this
    important topic.
        I think it is clear. And in answer to my question, you
    clarified that we all know that the economy and the needs of
    the labor market are changing, and so the future of work will
    require different skills than are required today.
        So it is a reality that I think workers, employers,
    families face every day. And we certainly don't want to slow
    down innovation. We want to continue to allow those jobs to be
    created. We want the economy or technology to bring those
    changes, but we also must work to ensure that pathways and
    opportunities for those facing displacement, they exist, that
    they will have the ability to acquire skills that will allow
    them to continue to be competitive.
        And with the skills gap growing by the day, 7 million
    unfilled jobs across the Nation, what better time now than to
    be thinking of--I know you disagree with that one--but what
    better time than now to be thinking about how we can help
    workers who will be faced with those conditions.
        I mentioned earlier, and if I had more time in my
    questioning, I would have said it as well. I really believe
    that much of the change that occurs happens organically and
    naturally, with the investment of labor, with the investment of
    businesses who benefit from their employees gaining those new
    skills. But I also think there is a role for the Federal
    Government at a time that a plant closes, at a time when there
    is a particular need.
        And so I think this is the beginning of really a
    conversation that we could have about what the Federal
    Government's role is and then how we can be most effective in
    that.
        So I would love to have more time, and I am sure we will
    continue this discussion in the future, but thank you to each
    of you for being here to discuss this important topic, and
    thank you for scheduling this.
        Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
        Again, thank you for your contributions here today. We
    appreciate it. And I think I particularly acknowledge that in
    many cases we have far more agreement than disagreement on
    this. And sometimes it is a matter of approach and
    acknowledging that, clearly, government can't do it all, but
    government does have the power and the resources to be able to
    look ahead, hopefully, and be able to adjust and be flexible in
    that regard, in terms of the needs of the workforce, and
    acknowledging that, regardless of the cause of the
    displacement, there is still a need out there.
        And I think it is particularly important when we know that
    the lack of action hampers American workers' and businesses'
    ability to really remain competitive. You all talked about the
    fact that, you know, we are not just competing against
    ourselves, one State against another, but it is against the
    world in many cases. And if we don't act, if we don't
    acknowledge that need, then we really are not being true, I
    think, to the very workers who make our country run, who help
    our country to be as worthy in many ways as it can be,
    especially for our families, for our workers throughout the
    country. So we know that is critical.
        You all mention the investments in workforce development
    that match our dire need are important, that we can reshape
    workforce programs, and that we also want to make sure that
    people have the ability to retain the skills that are in
    demand.
        One of the things that we did not mention is the fact that
    many women, particularly, who were assistants, executive
    assistants throughout our country, administrative assistants,
    are seen to be--will be one of the largest groups that is in
    need of education, training, and I think creativity,
    imagination, in trying to understand how we can be certain that
    they don't lose the ability to contribute to our economy in the
    future. And that is important as well.
        So thank you for coming together to talk about
    strengthening the future, not only of our workplaces, but our
    communities, our economy, and certainly our country. I
    appreciate it.
        We are adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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