    [House Hearing, 116 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                     KICK STARTING ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND MAIN
                             STREET ECONOMIC RECOVERY

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

          SUBCOMMITTEE ON RURAL DEVELOPMENT, AGRICULTURE, TRADE, AND
                                ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                                     OF THE

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                 UNITED STATES
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                  HEARING HELD
                               SEPTEMBER 10, 2020

                                   __________

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                Small Business Committee Document Number 116-091
                 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov

                                  __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    41-345                    WASHINGTON : 2021

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                     NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman
                             ABBY FINKENAUER, Iowa
                              JARED GOLDEN, Maine
                              ANDY KIM, New Jersey
                              JASON CROW, Colorado
                             SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
                             KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
                              JUDY CHU, California
                           DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
                            BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
                          ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York
                           ANTONIO DELGADO, New York
                         CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
                             ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
                       STEVE CHABOT, Ohio, Ranking Member
       AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, American Samoa, Vice Ranking Member
                              TROY BALDERSON, Ohio
                              KEVIN HERN, Oklahoma
                            JIM HAGEDORN, Minnesota
                            PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                            TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
                              ROSS SPANO, Florida
                            JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania
                           DAN BISHOP, North Carolina

                     Melissa Jung, Majority Staff Director
       Justin Pelletier, Majority Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel
                       Kevin Fitzpatrick, Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Abby Finkenauer.............................................     1
    Hon. John Joyce..................................................     3

                                   WITNESSES

    Mr. Chad Nath, Executive Director, LINK Grinnell Inc., Grinnell,
      IA.............................................................     6
    Mr. Jeremy Ketelsen, Vice President, Ketelsen RV, Hiawatha, IA...     8
    Mr. Mark Rembert, Head of the Rural Innovation Network, Center on
      Rural Innovation, Hartland, VT.................................     9
    Mr. Jason Duff, Founder, Small Nation, Bellefontaine, OH.........    11

                                    APPENDIX

    Prepared Statements:
        Mr. Chad Nath, Executive Director, LINK Grinnell Inc.,
          Grinnell, IA...............................................    21
        Mr. Jeremy Ketelsen, Vice President, Ketelsen, RV, Hiawatha,
          IA.........................................................    23
        Mr. Mark Rembert, Head of the Rural Innovation Network,
          Center on Rural Innovation, Hartland, VT...................    26
        Mr. Jason Duff, Founder, Small Nation, Bellefontaine, OH.....    33
    Questions for the Record:
        None.
    Answers for the Record:
        None.
    Additional Material for the Record:
        Engine.......................................................    36
        National Association of Federally-Insured Credit Unions
          (NAFCU)....................................................    40

        KICK STARTING ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND MAIN STREET ECONOMIC RECOVERY

                                  ----------

                          THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 2020

                      House of Representatives,
                   Committee on Small Business,
       Subcommittee on Rural Development, Agriculture,
                           Trade, and Entrepreneurship,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 1:00 p.m., in
    Room 2360 and via Webex, Rayburn House Office Building. Hon.
    Abby Finkenauer [chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Finkenauer, Craig, Chabot, Joyce,
    and Bishop.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. I call this meeting to order.
        I want to thank everyone for joining us this afternoon or
    morning, depending on where you are in the country right now. I
    want to make sure to note some important requirements as we
    conduct this official remote hearing.
        Standing House and Committee rules and practice will
    continue to apply during remote proceedings. All members are
    reminded that they are expected to adhere to these standing
    rules, including decorum.
        During the covered period as designated by the speaker, the
    Committee will operate in accordance with H.Res. 965 and the
    subsequent guidance from the Rules Committee in a manner that
    respects the rights of all members to participate. House
    regulations require members to be visible through a video
    connection throughout the proceedings. So please keep your
    cameras on. If you have to participate in another proceeding,
    please exit this one and then log back on later.
        In the event a member encounters technical issues that
    prevents them from being recognized for their questioning, I
    will move to the next available member of the same party and I
    will recognize that member at the next appropriate time slot
    provided they have returned to the proceedings. Should a
    member's time be interrupted by technical issues, I will
    recognize that member at the next appropriate spot for the
    remainder of their time once their issues have been resolved.
        In the event a witness loses connectivity during testimony
    or questioning, I will preserve their time as staff addresses
    the technical issues. I may need to recess the proceedings to
    provide time for the witness to reconnect. Hopefully we do not
    have any of those issues.
        Finally, remember to remain muted until you are recognized
    to minimize background noise. In accordance with the rules
    established under H.Res 965, staff have been advised to mute
    participants only in the event that there is an inadvertent
    background noise. Should a member wish to be recognized, they
    must first unmute themselves and then seek recognition at the
    appropriate time.
        Before we really get started, I want to start by
    recognizing the Iowans in my community and across the state who
    I know have gone through so much over the last month--
    obviously, because of the pandemic, but we also got hit in Iowa
    and in my district with what were essentially category four
    hurricane-style winds in August. These 140-mile per hour winds
    took down many trees that been standing for 150 or 200 years.
    The City of Cedar Rapids and the surrounding areas had already
    been through a lot before 2020, including the floods back in
    2008 and 2016. This disaster was just on a different scale
    affecting the City of Cedar Rapids at all the surrounding
    areas. Marion, Hiawatha, all of Lim County essentially and then
    our surrounding counties as well, like Buchanan, Poweshiek,
    Tama, Marshall, Iowa County, just to name a few. The two
    witnesses from Iowa today also have been impacted, whether by
    damage to their own businesses or to their homes. Mr. Nath and
    Mr. Ketelsen, when you agreed to be a part of this hearing, we
    were going to have a whole new host of challenges that we are
    dealing with here in Iowa. As Mr. Ketelsen told me this
    morning, though, we are Iowans--we'll get through this. But it
    is still going to be tough. We are really grateful to have
    Jeremy and Chad with us today.
        Now we have a whole new host of challenges that we are
    dealing with here in Iowa. As Mr. Ketelsen told me this
    morning, we are Iowans--we'll get through this. But it is still
    going to be tough. We are really grateful to have Jeremy and
    Chad with us today.
        We are also grateful to our other witnesses for joining us,
    from Vermont and Ohio. You guys have been through a lot with
    the pandemic, so we are just very, very grateful to you for
    taking the time to join us today as well.
        We all are still going through this pandemic. In Iowa, we
    have had over 69,000 folks who tested positive for COVID-19,
    and we have lost over 1,100 Iowans. There is still a long way
    to go, but we need to make sure we are doing everything we can
    to help our friends and neighbors. The pandemic has also caused
    hardship for our small businesses due to the downturn in our
    economy, and 7.5 million small businesses are now at risk of
    closure, many of them in our rural areas.
        What is especially frustrating is that we have spent nearly
    a decade recovering from the recession in 2008, only to now
    have our rural economies take another devastating hit. The
    Recession had a lasting and disproportionate impact on rural
    America. Two out of every three rural counties experienced a
    decline in their total number of businesses and a decline in
    their population as families left to find different
    opportunities.
        This is something that I saw happen firsthand in Iowa,
    where, in much like the rest of the country, recovery took hard
    work. Iowans took very big risks to start their own businesses,
    and it paid off. In 2016, nearly 1,900 new businesses started
    in Iowa, creating 7,000 new jobs.
        This did not just happen in Iowa, though.
        In 2017, America's small businesses created 8.4 million new
    jobs across the country. But not every community bounced back
    from the recession, and there are still places, especially in
    rural areas, that have never been able to bring back the jobs
    and opportunities that they lost.
        And now as we deal with the fallout from this pandemic, we
    need to make sure that no businesses or communities are left
    behind.
        Recently, I introduced the Unlocking Opportunities in
    Emerging Markets Act, which would create a new office at the
    Small Business Administration to focus entirely on how can we
    help improve access to capital for underrepresented
    entrepreneurs like in those rural areas, people of color,
    women, and our Nation's veterans. This is just one of the many
    bipartisan bills that are being put forward to help our small
    business owners to be successful in the long term, which is
    what we need to continue to be thinking about.
        I know that all of my colleagues here today have been
    working hard to come up with new ideas and solutions to help
    get our economy back on track, and that's why I am very, very
    thankful to get to serve on this Committee with you all.
        We wanted to hold this hearing to hear directly from
    America's rural small business owners about what they need to
    move forward and what the pandemic has meant for their
    businesses.
        I also look forward to hearing from our policy expert about
    how rural America can be a catalyst for job creation across the
    country.
        We can create opportunities in rural America if we do this
    right, whether it is ensuring access to broadband or creating
    opportunities so folks who are in bigger cities right now can
    move back home to the small towns they are from. We just have
    to do our job to address these issues on the federal level,
    working with folks at the local and state levels.
        Before I pass it over to Ranking Member Joyce, I want to
    thank Dr. Joyce for joining. Dr. Joyce, it has been great to
    get to work with you over the last year and a half, and I am
    happy to have you here today and would love to pass it over to
    you and yield to you for your opening statement.
        I think you have got it on mute, Dr. Joyce. There you go.
        Mr. JOYCE. Thank you, Chairwoman Finkenauer. Thank you for
    your leadership. I send my greetings from my district office in
    Somerset, Pennsylvania, where tomorrow we will hold a memorial
    of the Flight 93 tragedy which occurred on 9/11. Echoing the
    sentiments from my district, tomorrow will be a somber day, and
    yet we are all in stages of recovery which we will continue.
        In this Subcommittee, this important Subcommittee on Rural
    Development, Agriculture, Trade and Entrepreneurship, we have
    discussed the importance of economic development and of
    rejuvenation of America's small businesses. The global pandemic
    has only underscored the importance of these small businesses.
    And while there is little data that is truly available on the
    number of rural small businesses, some estimate that there are
    approximately 5.5 million rural small businesses in the United
    States. We know, particularly on this Subcommittee, that small
    businesses are a critical component of the rural economy, which
    makes them a focal point of many Federal rural economic
    development efforts.
        Rural small businesses do, indeed, differ from urban and
    suburban small firms in many ways. Generally, rural firms are
    more likely to be profitable long term and typically more
    successful than nonrural firms in getting financing.
    Additionally, rural businesses tend to be smaller in size,
    smaller in revenue, and often smaller in growth opportunities.
        We have had multiple hearings on the major challenges
    experienced by rural small businesses, including inadequate
    access to rural broadband, fewer methods to access capital,
    higher healthcare costs with limited access to rural
    physicians, increased childcare expenses, and workforce
    shortages. We know that small towns and rural communities
    struggle with these issues each and every day. But the
    coronavirus pandemic has continued to bring these issues to the
    forefront of our Nation's attention.
        About 46 million Americans live in rural areas, and
    unfortunately, some rural residents are at increased risk of
    getting COVID-19. Demographic characteristics and geographic
    features coupled with reduced healthcare disrupt the ability of
    rural regions to respond to the pandemic. The slowdown in
    aggregate demand has affected some primary sectors and the
    expected further slowdown in trade and global demand might
    continue to negatively impact rural economies.
        And due to these factors, we must be proactive in our goal
    of helping America's Main Street to recovery. Unfortunately, we
    find ourselves once again discussing the persistent challenges
    that we in rural communities face every single day. As this
    issue has yet to receive a resolution, we have witnessed in
    real time the destructive lack of access to healthcare,
    telehealth, and broadband specifically in our rural
    communities.
        The question is no longer what is the issue but rather,
    what can we do? In partnership with private and nonprofit
    organizations, we can increase access to these lifesaving and
    life-providing resources in order to create equitable
    opportunity for rural small businesses.
        The Hill recently released an article discussing the
    significant dynamic of Americans who are moving in waves to
    suburban and rural areas. Some reasons cited include the
    pandemic, social unrest, and economic uncertainty. While the
    permanency and benefit of this change remains to be seen, we
    will assess the impact that this will have on our communities
    as our economics continue to recover and the pandemic continues
    to slow. Now, when we see a great migration from cities to
    rural and suburban communities, we must not only talk about the
    strain on resources but we must discern how to leverage these
    resources so that we can retain those who have moved into our
    communities and foster the opportunities for further growth and
    development.
        For these pressing issues, I am proud to work with you on
    this Committee where we host witnesses on a wealth of knowledge
    on these specifics and can come up with bipartisan solutions
    that benefit all of our Nation's rural communities. It is
    imperative that we learn from those who, like our panel today,
    know what it is like to steer a small business through a
    pandemic.
        I look forward to hearing the testimony of our witnesses
    today and to the continued partnership and bipartisan nature of
    this Subcommittee.
        Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I yield back.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Thank you, Dr. Joyce. The gentleman
    yields back.
        If Committee members have opening statements prepared, I
    would ask that they be submitted for the record.
        I would like to just take a minute now to explain the
    timing rules. Each witness gets 5 minutes to testify and then
    each member gets 5 minutes for questioning. There is a lighting
    system to assist you. The green light will be on when you
    begin, and then the yellow light comes on when you have 1
    minute remaining. The red light comes on when you are out of
    time, and we ask that you stay within the 5-minute timeframe to
    the best of your ability.
        Now I would now like to introduce our witnesses.
        Our first witness is Mr. Chad Nath. Mr. Nath is the
    director of LINK Grinnell, a nonprofit organization that offers
    daycare and afterschool care. LINK--which stands for lead,
    inspire, nurture and keep children educated, enriched, and
    engaged in the Grinnell community--aims to provide a safe and
    inclusive learning environment for all children. Mr. Nath holds
    a B.A. in Education from Buena Vista University, has held
    positions as a kindergarten and special education teacher, and
    has also worked in the healthcare sector. Mr. Nath, you have
    done a lot and you have done it all in our rural areas like
    Grinnell, and we are very, very grateful to have you here.
    Welcome, Mr. Nath.
        Our second witness is Mr. Jeremy Ketelsen. Mr. Ketelsen is
    the vice president of Ketelsen RV located in Hiawatha, Iowa.
    Ketelsen RV began as a small RV business on the family farm in
    1962, when Mr. Ketelsen's grandfather wanted a camper. The
    business opened a storefront in Marion, Iowa, and later started
    a service department, a parts department, and eventually a
    sales department. Mr. Ketelsen, we are really happy to have you
    here. It was great to chat with you and Mr. Nath this morning.
    I am really interested to hear how you are hanging in there
    with both the pandemic and the derecho now. Welcome, Mr.
    Ketelsen.
        Our third witness is Mr. Rembert. Mr. Rembert is a regional
    economist and head of the Rural Innovation Network at the
    Center on Rural Innovation in Heartland, Vermont. He started in
    this line of work when his hometown of Wilmington, Ohio faced
    the loss of 10,000 jobs during the recession. It led him to
    cofound the nonprofit Energize Clinton County in 2008, and he
    later served as the executive director of the Wilmington
    Clinton County Chamber of Commerce. He holds a Ph.D. in
    Regional Economics from The Ohio State University. Welcome, Mr.
    Rembert.
        I would now like to yield to our Ranking Member, Dr. Joyce,
    to introduce our final witness.
        Mr. JOYCE. Thank you, Chairwoman Finkenauer.
        Our final witness is Jason Duff, founder and CEO of Small
    Nation, a company in Bellefontaine, Ohio that revitalizes small
    towns and helps small town entrepreneurs across the country.
    Jason is a fourth generation in a family of entrepreneurs and
    grew up gaining firsthand knowledge of how entrepreneurship,
    good financial practices, and hard work can bring great
    success. After graduating from the Ohio Northern University
    with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration, he
    founded Community Storage and Properties, a local self-storage
    company that allowed Jason to invest in the redevelopment of
    Bellefontaine. He then founded an outdoor media company
    operating over 400 billboards in Ohio and Indiana. In 7 years,
    Jason and his business, Small Nation team have helped to
    revitalize the City of Bellefontaine. Using their hustle-hard
    approach, they have managed to renovate more than 30 historic
    buildings that have been sitting empty for decades, and then
    recruit tenants for 14 new business concepts. This created 18
    new loft apartments, adding a crucial residential component
    back to the city's downtown. The combination of retail,
    restaurant, and residential have brought a small-town Main
    Street back to life. He is a member of the Small Business
    Council for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the Small Business
    and Entrepreneur Council, and serves on the Board of Trustees
    of Ohio Northern University. Jason, my sister is also an alum
    of Ohio Northern University. We welcome you to our Subcommittee
    meeting today.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Thank you very much, Dr. Joyce.
        Mr. Nath, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

      STATEMENTS OF CHAD NATH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, LINK GRINNELL,
       INC.; JEREMY KETELSEN, VICE PRESIDENT, KETELSEN RV; MARK
    REMBERT, HEAD OF THE RURAL INNOVATION NETWORK, CENTER ON RURAL
     INNOVATION; JASON DUFF, FOUNDER, SMALL NATION, BELLEFONTAINE,
                                   OH

                         STATEMENT OF CHAD NATH

        Mr. NATH. Thank you, Chairwoman Finkenauer, Ranking Member
    Joyce, and distinguished members of the Committee.
        My name is Chad Nath. I an born and raised in Iowa.
    Northwest Iowa is where I grew up and then settled down in the
    Grinnell area. I taught school for 7 years. I was a middle
    school special education teacher and a kindergarten teacher,
    and then after that I went to Grinnell Regional Medical Center
    where I held several different roles in that organization--
    emergency preparedness, safety security, incident commander for
    any events that had occurred, and then also public health. So,
    and then we also had a day camp program which then made me
    change to my new career right now which is I am the executive
    director of LINK Grinnell. It is a nonprofit that was dreamed
    up on May 30, 2019, and we knew that there was a huge demand
    and need for childcare in rural Iowa as well. So we had a study
    that had been done 4 years ago that identified that there were
    500 children that did not have the designated home for
    childcare and basically the need and demand was there.
        So I decided to leave the hospital in order to lead this
    venture. What we ended up doing was to work very hard and were
    very distinct on the name LINK. So Lead, Inspire, Nurture and
    Keep children active and engaged.
        So we are basically a cradle-to-career program. So we look
    at ways that we can enrich and provide services to children of
    all ages. We started with afterschool programs. So last year,
    about a year ago, we opened our doors and started providing
    care. And we saw that that was a huge benefit. Then all of a
    sudden in March is when COVID hit, and being someone that has
    done a lot of planning for hospitals, I know that the surge
    capacity for a hospital and long-term care facilities and first
    responders is desperate and they need the staff to be focused
    and engaged with their patients and clients and that type of
    thing. So we pivoted from an afterschool program to providing
    care for children of essential workers. We sent out a survey.
    We identified that there were 98 families who filled out the
    survey. There were 163 children that were identified. And of
    that, as things got big, bad, and ugly with community spread
    that there would be 86 children. So what that did in my
    emergency mind thinking was we needed to have capacity to have
    86 children with groups smaller than 10.
        So what we ended up doing is we created what we call
    isolated pods. So we have no more than 10 individuals in each
    of these pods. And they are basically like a family unit. So
    they have an entrance and an exit, restrooms, dedicated staff.
    With that I needed facilities. So I talked to the State of
    Iowa. Ended up getting memorandum of agreements with seven
    different facilities in order to basically contract or expand
    depending on the situation in the community spread. Now, we
    ended up seeing 37 children, and a majority of those were in
    one long-term care facility that in Poweshiek County we had 166
    positive cases as of today, and 83 were all from this one long-
    term care facility. So they got hit really hard. So we were
    taking care of their staff children and also hospital staff as
    well.
        We also continued all the way to June 1st where then we
    pivoted to allowing the public in as well. So we did a summer
    program. That was 76 children. We ended up doing six isolated
    pods in two different facilities. The school system has been
    wonderful in our area to allow us to utilize a lot to do six,
    four pods and then ultimately, two pods. Now, all along, we
    have been making sure that we are disinfecting. We use PPE, all
    these different types of things in order to make this function
    and work appropriately.
        So I did not get through everything. There are so many
    things to unpack and unwind with it but, you know, we did
    fieldtrips. We did some other things that are pretty creative
    and unique. Bussing, cleaning the bus and all those different
    types of things in order for that to happen. And then obviously
    derecho hit and Grinnell actually lost power for more than 12
    days and obviously you cannot have childcare during that time
    because there was a lack of power. Although we did restore
    power 12 days later and then the demand for childcare, because
    again, because our school year got pushed clear back, so they
    just started Tuesday of this week, and so we filled that gap as
    well. And now we do afterschool care Tuesday, Wednesday, and
    then that is where I will go after this discussion.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. You are a very busy guy. You have
    been doing so much. I look forward to asking questions and
    hearing even more later.
        Now we will go to Mr. Ketelsen. You are now recognized for
    5 minutes.

                      STATEMENT OF JEREMY KETELSEN

        Mr. KETELSEN. Thank you, Chairwoman Finkenauer and Ranking
    Member Dr. Joyce and distinguished members of the Committee.
        I am Jeremy Ketelsen, Vice President of family-owned
    Ketelsen RV with locations in Hiawatha and De Soto, Iowa. Our
    dealership was founded in 1962 and we roughly employ about 60
    people. We sell new and used travel trailers, horse trailers,
    used motorhomes. We also provide repair services and property
    services to customers. It is our family's life work to enable
    people to enjoy the great outdoors and travel this great
    country.
        Our dealership is working hard to come back from the
    economic shock of the pandemic. We have made progress, but
    challenges remain. Among our top concerns are keeping our
    customers and employees safe each day, inventory shortages, and
    parts supply chain issues.
        We were very fortunate that we did not need to completely
    close our business this spring, but that is not the case in
    other states. RV dealerships in several states were open for
    service only, and could only transact sales by phone or the
    web, and in some cases the RV dealers could not be open at
        all. So RVDA, RVIA, the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable and
    several RV associations worked to allow dealerships to remain
    open to serve the traveling public. The quick succession of
    state stay-at-home orders left some RV travelers stranded on
        the road and some had to leave both public and private
    campgrounds due to state and Federal ordered closures. In the
    meantime, RV ``snowbirds'' who winter in the south had to
    travel back home to their home state, and it was vital that RV
    dealerships remained open to provide those services to get them
    home.
        In the early days of the pandemic, first responders,
    including medical personnel, law enforcement, and critical
    utility workers used RVs to self-quarantine in areas. In Iowa,
    workers at the Des Moines RV Water Works utilized 20 RVs for
    temporary housing.
        As the assistant fire chief for Springville, Iowa, I have
    seen this firsthand and experienced it, and it is in our
    community's plan.
        With business operations severely restricted, a dealer
    survey conducted by RVDA in early April showed that 26 percent
    said their service, parts, and accessories business were ``down
    75 percent or more'' when compared with the level of business
    prior to the pandemic. Another 35 percent said their fixed
    operations business was ``down 50 to 74 percent.'' Forty-four
    percent of the dealers responding to that RVDA survey said
    their new RV sales volume was down 75 percent or more when
    compared with pre-pandemic levels, and 21 percent said that
    they were down 50 to 74 percent.
        With almost no revenue coming in, many dealers were forced
    to furlough or lay off, including ourselves.
        Because of crushing job losses throughout the country, the
    Small Business Administration's PPP loan initiative offered
    forgivable loans to small businesses. At the time of the RVDA
    survey, 92 percent of RV dealers responding said that they
    either had or planned to apply for a PPP loan. While my
    dealership did not apply for the program, it has been important
    to many RV dealers across the country. Since those
        Since those uncertain days of March and April, Americans
    have made it clear with the increase in business and enthusiasm
    towards the great outdoors that this is an industry that can
    help heal the Nation during times like these.
        We are now faced with supply chain issues. Like many
    dealers in the country, our inventory is down, and even more
    down after the derecho. These supply chain issues have the
    potential to create a storm after a storm. If manufacturers of
    RVs, which are primarily American made, cannot get components
    from the suppliers to build the product, it will lead to a
    challenge because we do not have products in stock during the
    time that consumers are seeking the outdoor experience.
        Some areas that we are watching down the road include
    access to campgrounds. People need public and private places to
    camp in an RV or tent. We thank those of you who voted for the
    Great American Outdoors Act, which will help modernize and
    improve the public campgrounds in our National Parks, forests,
    and Federal lands.
        Continued public investment in the outdoor recreation is
    extremely important to our country's future. Since the pandemic
    we have seen an increase in younger and first-time buyers at
    our dealership and at dealerships across this country. In our
    conversations with these customers, we are finding that there
    are a lot of parents who are using the outdoors to reconnect
    with their families. They want to get away from fear of the
    virus and spend time together as a family unit.
        We have been told by public health officials to get outside
    and recreate responsibly. People are hearing that message loud
    and clear. Nature heals our body and mind.
        So, on behalf of the $778 billion outdoor recreation
    industry, and the RV industry which has an overall economic
    impact of $114 billion and supports nearly 600,000 jobs, thank
    you for your support of small businesses like mine that help
    millions of Americans enjoy the great outdoors. We will
    continue to be part of the public health and the economic
        solution in rural communities across this country.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Thank you, Mr. Ketelsen. We really
    appreciate it and look forward to asking questions here in a
    few minutes.
        I now would like to recognize Mr. Rembert for 5 minutes.

                       STATEMENT OF MARK REMBERT

        Mr. REMBERT. Chairwoman Finkenauer, Ranking Member Joyce,
    and distinct members of the Subcommittee.
        My name is Mark Rembert, and I am the head of the Rural
    Innovation Network at the Center on Rural Innovation. I am a
    regional economist by training, with a focus on rural
    development, and I spent nearly a decade leading economic
    development efforts in my hometown of Wilmington, Ohio
    following the Great Recession. It is a pleasure to be with you
    today to discuss the role of entrepreneurship in economic
    development.
        Even before the pandemic, rural America faced a crisis of
    economic opportunity. As recently as February 2020, more than
    1,200 rural counties had not recovered all the jobs lost during
    the Great Recession. This recent history suggests that the
    traditional approaches to rural development have not delivered
    economic prosperity on their own.
        Addressing the immediate economic issues faced by rural
    America is critical but it is not enough. Restoring rural
    America to its pre-pandemic trajectory will mean that most
    rural communities will continue to lag behind. Rural America
    needs a new economic model.
        One key factor driving the rural opportunity gap has been
    the growth of the digital economy. Between 2002 and 2016, the
    share of jobs requiring digital skills quadrupled from 4.8
    percent to 23 percent, and tech jobs experienced one of the
    fastest job growth rates from 2010 to 2016. Yet, today, rural
    America is home to just 5 percent of the workers in tech
    occupations, even though it accounts for 15 percent of the
    total U.S. workforce.
        At the Center for Rural Innovation, we believe that for
    rural communities to thrive, they must participate in the
    digital economy. Building digital economies and rural
    communities will require scalable tech startups that can create
    digital jobs in rural places.
        Supporting rural tech startups requires a different model
    than supporting Main Street businesses. Just like their metro
    counterparts, rural startups need access to equity-based risk
    capital, deep mentor and advisor networks, incubator and
    accelerator programs, and a trained digital workforce to draw
    upon. Yet, in most rural communities, these resources are
    lacking or do not exist at all. There is a need for new
    economic development models and increased Federal support to
    grow scalable entrepreneurship in rural communities.
        As the head of CORI's Rural Innovation Network, I have the
    pleasure of working with 18 rural communities in 17 states that
    are at the forefront of building tech-focused entrepreneurship
    ecosystems in rural areas. Communities like Red Wing,
    Minnesota; Durango, Colorado; Waterville, Maine, and Wilson,
    North Carolina are helping to lead the way by demonstrating
    that scalable tech entrepreneurship is possible in rural areas.
        The Federal government has already played an important role
    in supporting the success of the communities like these in the
    Rural Innovation Network. Each community in the network has
    received technical assistance from CORI's sister organization,
    Rural Innovation Strategies, Inc., through a collaborative
    agreement with the Economic Development Administration. RISI
    supports communities as they develop digital economic
    development strategies and then provides assistance as they
    apply for the EDA's Build to Scale program which was formerly
    the i6 program.
        Last year, three out of the eight communities that RISI
    supported received an i6 grant to expand their digital economy
    ecosystem work. Even though not every community RISI works with
    wins a grant award, the technical assistance they receive still
    provides them with a strategy and a foundation from which they
    can continue to grow their digital economy.
        Other Federal programs can also help accelerate scalable
    entrepreneurship in rural America. The SBA's Small Business
    Innovation Research program has a strong track record of
    spurring job creation through innovation. In theory, the SBIR
    should offer a critical source of capital for rural tech
    entrepreneurs, yet just 3 percent of SBI awards have been made
    to firms located in rural communities.
        The Build to Scale and SBIR programs illustrate two key
    insights for the role the Federal government can play in
    supporting tech entrepreneurship in rural communities. First,
    there should be more programs like Build to Scale that support
    the development of innovation-driven entrepreneurship
    ecosystems. We have seen firsthand how this program can
    accelerate the development of entrepreneurship ecosystems in
    rural communities. Second, the SBIR program shows that Federal
    funding alone is not enough. Without technical assistance to
    promote access in rural areas, programs aimed at supporting
    scalable entrepreneurship are likely to end up concentrated in
    areas where tech jobs already exist.
        While there is still great uncertainty about the long-term
    effects of the pandemic, one thing that we know for sure is
    that rural America cannot wait for the next recession to join
    the digital economy. In the age of the Internet, there should
    be no limit to where digital economy jobs and scalable
    entrepreneurship can take place. Thank you.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Well, thank you, Mr. Rembert. I know
    I got excited when you talked about Red Wing, Minnesota. They
    have great walleye fishing up there, speaking of outdoor
    activities, right, Mr. Ketelsen? I look forward to asking you
    some questions, too, to hear even more about your expertise and
    ideas. Thank you, Mr. Rembert.
        Mr. Duff, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                        STATEMENT OF JASON DUFF

        Mr. DUFF. Thank you, Chairwoman Finkenauer, Ranking Member
    Joyce, and the distinguished members of the Subcommittee. My
    name is Jason Duff and I am the founder of Small Nation.
    Established 14 years ago in Bellefontaine, Ohio, Small Nation
    was formed during our Nation's economic crisis and is dedicated
    to investing in places, spaces and dreams for small towns and
    entrepreneurs.
        Bellefontaine is a town of 13,000 people in Logan County,
    60 miles northwest of Columbus, 25 miles from the nearest major
    interstate, and an hour from the closest metropolitan area. It
    is like many other important and valuable courthouse
    communities across the country. We have a strong
        commitment and reliance on agriculture, manufacturing and
    tourism. We are rural and depend on the vibrancy of our local
    economy and jobs to generate taxes which support local
    government, schools, and our community's health and social
    safety nets.
        Eighty percent of our downtown's storefronts were vacant
    when I began my journey 14 years ago. Blight, crime, arson and
    opioid abuse plagued our town. Working with city, county and
    other local leaders, my team and I developed a vision for how
    to restart our local economy that began with finding unique
    ways to reduce unemployment by investing in people as well as
    places.
        The kinds of new businesses which have flourished in our
    town include new dine-in restaurants, coffee shops, hair
    salons, shopping boutiques, air-bnb's, health and wellness
    studios and locally owned professional offices and services.
    All of these businesses have thrived because of the fact that
    they belong to a supportive, growing and innovative small
    business community. That community had to be created.
        Thankfully, we were introduced to organizations like the
    Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council, the local Chamber
    of Commerce, historic preservation organizations like Heritage
    Ohio and resources and grants from the Small Businesses
    Administration.
        COVID-19 and the ongoing pandemic poses an unprecedented
    new set of challenges for small businesses as they strive
    toward recovery. McKenzie estimates that between 1.4 million
    and 2.1 million small businesses could permanently close, and
    that estimate was based on just the first 4 months of the
    pandemic.
        The disruption has also created a host of new business
    opportunities and industries that small and local businesses
    can play an important role and win against their multinational
    competitors. We have seen the creativity of American
    entrepreneurs in ways they prepare and deliver food, create and
    provide education and training and using technology and video
    in ways that we never thought possible. We have also seen how
    businesses can step up and solve important health and safety
    needs during the pandemic. From creating masks, shields and
    much needed PPE, businesses of all sizes are responding and
    willing to serve. Small businesses are all essential.
        At the heart of all of this are people who listen, solve
    problems and create solutions and get paid for those solutions.
    A recent survey by Getapp shared that 92 percent of U.S. small
    businesses have reinvented themselves during the pandemic and
    that says a whole lot about this group of people. Small
    business owners are scrappy go-getters and there is no quit in
    them.
        Here are some key recommendations. Let's work together to
    expand programs that support small businesses' financial
    resilience. While the PPP program and EIDL programs provided
    much needed relief to many businesses, there is still so many
    micro businesses who have been left out. These micro businesses
    need access to capital to sustain, grow and expand their
    businesses. For example, small businesses need a long-term
    recovery loan program with low interest rates and favorable
    payment terms. Federal policies could also incentivize and
    leverage the success of equity and debt-based crowdfunding to
    provide entrepreneurs and businesses with a sustained source of
    capital to help them accelerate recovery and boost new business
    creation.
        Improve access to rural broadband. Now more than ever we
    need to find ways to enhance the access, speed and
    affordability of rural broadband to everyone. The next great
    business idea, invention or breakthrough can happen on a family
    farm, makerspace or independent specialty retail store.
        And the last is creating and expanding entrepreneurial
    ecosystems. We must continue to support the business
    organizations and nonprofits who train, advocate and bring
    entrepreneurs together, organizations like the Small Business
    and Entrepreneurship Council, the U.S. Chamber and the Small
    Businesses Admiration.
        In closing, I want to thank the Subcommittee for the
    opportunity to testify today. Now more than ever we need to
    find ways to really own and define what it means to be small.
    Small is adaptive, nimble and able to respond fast. It is the
    small ones in the small towns and neighborhoods everywhere that
    keep not only the economy, but the very spirit of our country
    alive and prospering. It is the mom and pops, the food we eat,
    the measure of good service, and the technology of the future.
    They are the people who create the beautiful things, share our
    knowledge and build bigger, better and stronger communities.
        Thank you for believing and supporting and making smart
    policies that support small business.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Thank you, Mr. Duff. I truly
    appreciate your testimony and look forward to hearing from you
    later today as well. And thank you all for sharing with us.
        We are going to now begin our question portion. I will
    begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes.
        My first question is to Mr. Nath. Mr. Nath, your work in
    childcare, especially all that you have been doing for the last
    year since LINK started, is pretty extraordinary. I know you
    dealt with challenges you were not expecting to have to deal
    with when you took over this endeavor.
        Can you speak to me about why it was important for you to
    enter the childcare sector, especially in a small town and some
    of the things that are a little bit different when it comes to
    childcare in rural areas versus our cities?
        Mr. NATH. Thank you for the question.
        Yes, it is vital. So when we started LINK, we went out to
    our organizations and they supported us. We asked for 2 years
    of funding, 100 percent donated dollars to start up LINK to
    provide childcare. This brings in a physician, you know, at the
    hospital, we had been looking for oncology for how long and
    orthopedics and the list goes on of different services and you
    cannot get those individuals in because the schools and
    childcare are not there to support those individuals. Plus,
    people want that for their families and to help that community
    thrive.
        So we were fortunate, and we were able to provide that
    essential childcare for free because we had those dollars that
    were donated in there. In order to have those people focus on
    the job they were doing, they need to make sure that these
    other worries are wiped away, and the only way to make a
    community thrive is to make sure that you have all those facets
    into place along with opportunities for your family. And so
    that is why it was so critical and so important for us to do
    what we did in that situation.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Like you said, getting doctors and
    being able to attract the right talent to small towns has so
    much to do with the childcare that is available. Thank you for
    recognizing that need, and it underscores why this is such an
    important topic to be talking about on a Committee like this.
    As we are talking about rural development, we need to make sure
    that we do not have child care access disparities across the
    country.
        I have one other quick question for you before we move on
    to Mr. Ketelsen. The folks who work at LINK Grinnell are
    essential workers. Could you speak just a little bit about what
    hazard pay would mean to LINK Grinnell's workforce and how it
    would be helpful,
        Mr. NATH. Yeah, hazard pay would be critical in that
    situation. And you know, these individuals, a lot of the
    individuals are in the instant you need them. And so DHS was
    really good about getting background checks and all those types
    of things back to us really quickly. But you know, we are the
    front line of the front line. You know, that was the thing that
    was very challenging was to find a way to make sure that I kept
    my staff safe and the children safe during COVID. And knock on
    wood, luckily we have not had any instances where anybody has
    been positive, but we really adhere to some strict standards
    and made that work very well. So thank you for that question.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Ketelsen, one thing we talked about this morning and
    was mentioned in your testimony is a supply chain issue that
    you are running into in your industry. What are some of the
    factors you see leading to that? Would you find it to be
    helpful to make sure that we are understanding what the needs
    are for manufacturing and the industries--like those that are
    doing well during the pandemic--that could benefit from fixes
    to the supply chain?
        Mr. KETELSEN. A lot of our supply chain issues are derived
    from the fact of we went from zero during the COVID timeframe
    where no one was thinking about recreation during those initial
    times to 120 miles an hour of even the public officials saying
    the best way to enjoy your family and recreate is to be
    outside. And it is difficult for any industry to go from zero
    to not only where they were and then put them into a growth
    spike. And that is a lot of what that supply chain has created,
    which is a unique problem. It is an exciting problem for the
    future.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Yeah. I know my time has expired,
    but when we had that discussion, it really did make me start
    thinking that we should be able to make up supply chain
    shortages by giving production opportunities to some of our
    manufacturers who may have slowed down in other areas of their
    business, including by helping them retool their operations to
    meet the needs that are there right now.
        With your supply chain issues, and the derecho on top of
    that I know it is going to be a long road for your business. I
    am very grateful for your expertise and everything you talked
    about today. Thank you, Mr. Ketelsen.
        I know my time expired, so I now yield to Dr. Joyce for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. JOYCE. Thank you, Chairwoman Finkenauer.
        My questions will start with Mr. Jason Duff. At
    Bellefontaine, you told quite an amazing story. You have been
    able to revitalize your small community with a balance of
    government, nonprofit, and private organizations. You talked to
    us, Mr. Duff, about an 80 percent vacancy rate with blight and
    turning that around to develop restaurants and small businesses
    and residences as well. Do you think that your community
    specifically benefitted from a tax base, from an enjoyment of
    life, from the development of new small businesses, from your
    ability to turn around a blighted area, an 80 percent vacancy
    rate for your numbers into a prosperous area?
        Mr. DUFF. Thank you for the question.
        The beginning of our journey began with recruiting that
    first business and that first entrepreneur that would take a
    risk on our town. And that happened to be an independent
    restaurant. You know, asking the community what we felt that we
    were missing to bring that traffic, that energy, that life, and
    luckily, an entrepreneur that made brick oven pizza that had
    multiple units decided to expand his business in our town. That
    was a big risk for him. But when that place opened up, there
    were already 13 other pizza places in our town but he had a
    distinct, unique recipe. He provided a unique customer
    experience and we honored the historic building that was there
    and the legacy of the traffic and energy that it had 150 years
    ago. So that became the catalyst for seeing that energy, that
    life, and that traffic come back to our town. When the
    restaurant started, there were other specialty retail stores
    that saw that traffic and saw the energy and life and said we
    want to be clustered around that, too. And then later, as
    people saw the specialty retail stores, the downtown gin
    decided to open up. And then people said, we want to live in
    the upper floors of that building.
        But now in the pandemic, you know, what we are challenged
    with--so to answer your question, it did improve the tax base,
    and it improved the tax base significantly not only for the
    employees that were working the businesses, the business owners
    that were developing profitable businesses, that they are
    earning income on, but the property values appreciated. And
    when the property values appreciated, that allowed more money
    to go back to local municipalities for our schools and for our
    area communities. So you know, the challenge now in the
    pandemic is that many of our downtown and independently owned
    restaurants have been forced to close. And so that industry in
    particular has really been challenged, and I think that we must
    work together to find programs that really help those
    independent restaurants be able to open back up and get their
    employees back engaged and working. And I know the PPP program
    and the EIDL program have been two successful measures on being
    able to do what it can do but there is still more work that has
    to be done.
        So the thing that we are working on right now is
    identifying if restaurants are going to be slower to come back
    online, what are the new ways that we can bring that traffic
    and energy and life to our towns and bring that technology,
    that broadband, getting our buildings wired up I think is going
    to be a huge step in the right direction.
        Mr. JOYCE. Mr. Duff, what you achieved at Bellefontaine, is
    this a model for success in other rural communities? And are
    you looking to implement that in other rural communities?
        Mr. DUFF. Absolutely. We believe that the model starts with
    finding ways to buy and invest in historic buildings, actively
    recruit and identify people who are entrepreneurially minded.
    And those people do exist in towns. Those ideas need to be
    heard, and we need to connect those ideas with people,
    community banks, and investors that have resources. And once
    these ideas come online, those folks need ongoing mentorship,
    coaching, and support. And I believe this model is working and
    can work and it can help towns all across the country.
        Mr. JOYCE. And thank you for being the conduit for joining
    those different groups together.
        My next question is for Mr. Chad Nath. Mr. Nath, you
    mentioned searching for funding through nongovernment sources
    in donations and grants and stipends. Approximately, how many
    of your dollars were you able to make up from nongovernment
    sources?
        Mr. NATH. From nongovernment sources? So you know, we start
    off actually from our local businesses are the ones that
    actually supplied us with the dollars that we thrived on during
    that time. Not thrived but we worked with. We did do a
    community block grant and the PPP, we did not get it in the
    first phase. And then we had just some of the people that were
    essential staff provided some donations. So those went into
    donated dollars. We did not assess a fee or process a fee. We
    allowed them if they sort of chose to give some dollars back
    and we had a few that did that. Some just could not afford to
    do that. So those are the ways that we made this work. We wrote
    grants all over the place and, you know, from the Iowa Women's
    Foundation in this area. We did 5-2-1 zero dollars. We looked
    for different ways that we could fund this and make this work.
    And luckily, at this point we hopefully can see the clearing a
    little bit.
        Mr. JOYCE. And I commend you.
        My final question is for Mr. Rembert. We have talked in
    this Committee at length about bridging the digital divide for
    rural communities. We are committed to working for that. In
    your written testimony you mentioned that each community has
    individual challenges with this task. From a Federal level, we
    understand that the Federal government needs to support these
    efforts without imposing a ``one size fits all'' approach. Do
    you agree from your stance, from your perch, that a ``one size
    fits all'' will not be successful as we continue to bridge that
    digital divide?
        Mr. REMBERT. Yes. I think we find that rural communities
    each have specific assets and specific challenges that have to
    be addressed in unique ways to be successful in doing this,
    especially when we are talking about building entrepreneurship
    ecosystems that are really focused on building scalable
    companies.
        You know, I think that in our experience, you know,
    programs that sort of match resources with local capacity
    building that allow the solutions to be built from the
    community level up and then are matched with resources that can
    come in to really build the capacity of the community to
    advance a strategy is really where we think success can be
    achieved because, you know, in rural communities in particular,
    capacity is always going to be a significant constraint. And so
    to the extent that programs can actually build local capacity
    based on strategies and ideas that are developed by local
    leaders, I think the Federal government can play a really
    important role in doing that. So in that sense, you know,
    having one solution to every community develop is not
    necessarily the best if it is not building that local capacity
    leadership strategy that can bring local resources together to
    really advance a vision.
        Mr. JOYCE. And again, we salute your commitment to the
    rural communities.
        Thank you, Chairwoman, and I yield the remainder of my
    time.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Thank you, Dr. Joyce. The gentleman
    yields back.
        Now I would like to recognize the gentlelady from
    Minnesota, Congresswoman Craig, for 5 minutes.
        Ms. CRAIG. Well, thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman. And
    before I get into my questions about COVID-19 and economic
    recovery, I want to recognize you specifically for all of your
    tremendous work on behalf of your constituents as you recover
    from the August derecho. So thank you, thank you for everything
    you have been doing. I have been following you and just wanted
    to recognize your work.
        In getting back to our panelists, I just want to say thank
    you for all of you for being with us today to talk about these
    topics, some of the same topics that have greatly impacted my
    constituents.
        And I want to first turn to Mr. Rembert for my question and
    tie it back to the work of an organization called Red Wing
    Ignite, a nonprofit that I am proud to have in my district. Red
    Wing Ignite fuels economic development by working with key
    sectors of the community to spur innovation by supporting
    entrepreneurs, businesses, and students.
        As you mentioned in your testimony, and certainly Ignite
    has done this in adapting to COVID-19, there has been
    adaptation through virtual webinars, online mentoring programs,
    and more to support entrepreneurs. However, in this time of
    remote working and online events, internet access to these
    entrepreneurial programs and support is essential. So can you
    talk just a little bit more deeply about how rural broadband
    fits into this work and how the Center on Rural Innovation is
    working to expand rural broadband so more entrepreneurs can
    access these services?
        Mr. REMBERT. Yes. Broadband is the sort of foundational
    infrastructure that is required to build tech startups in rural
    places. And so it is extremely critical. When we look at
    communities to work with, one of the things that we look for is
    do they have broadband infrastructure in place. And you know,
    the fact is there are a lot of rural places that have great
    broadband, Red Wing being one of them. It has a fiber network
    which is exceptional. So many rural communities are really
    equipped to start doing this work but there are still
    significant parts of rural America that are not connected. And
    that is just an issue that we cannot wait to solve. It needs to
    be addressed yesterday before this pandemic hit, and we are
    really seeing the effects of it now.
        As an organization, we help to raise awareness through our
    data and mapping research about the critical role of broadband
    and where there are gaps. And our sister organization, Rural
    Innovation Strategies, Inc. does do specific work with rural
    communities that are developing, that need help developing
    broadband and fixing gaps in their broadband infrastructures.
    So you know, we definitely encourage Congress to really focus
    on the need to bridge the digital divide around broadband in
    rural America.
        Ms. CRAIG. I just want to stick with you for one more
    minute. In looking at the economic effects of COVID-19 and
    comparing it to the Great Recession, how is it the same and how
    is it different? And does that speak to any future of what the
    recovery and what entrepreneurial opportunities come out of
    that look like?
        Mr. REMBERT. Yeah, so I mean, I think it is a little bit
    even too soon to say what this is going to look like. As an
    economist, I think that this is still an evolving situation.
    And so, you know, what we have seen so far is that this
    recession actually looks quite different than the Great
    Recession. So in one way in particular in the Great Recession,
    rural communities were actually much more severely impacted. So
    far in this economic crisis, rural communities have been
    somewhat, you know, have been less impacted partly because they
    have not necessarily experienced the same severity of outbreaks
    that more urbanized areas have.
        The question is, what will the long-term effects be? I do
    not think we quite know. You know, in our own analysis of like
    the most recent ELS data, it looks like the recovery is
    starting to slow in rural America. Before, you know, before
    rural America has recovered the jobs lost since February, so
    you know, and the fact that rural America is predominantly, has
    disproportionate employment among small businesses is a real
    risk, too. And as we saw during the Great Recession, small
    businesses are much more vulnerable to these kind of shocks.
    And so that can have much longer-term impacts in rural
    communities, which is one of the reasons why we think it is
    probably the case that rural America has not recovered from the
    Great Recession overall.
        Ms. CRAIG. Thank you so much. I am sorry I did not get to
    ask each of you a question but Madam Chairwoman, it looks like
    my time is up, so I will yield back.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Thank you, Congresswoman.
        With that I will recognize the gentleman from Ohio, Mr.
    Chabot, who is the Ranking Member of the Small Business
    Committee, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. CHABOT. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
        I think Mr. Ketelsen, I will go to you first if I can.
        You mentioned that one of your priorities is keeping your
    employees and your customers safe. And you know, one of the
    things that we have been considering is liability protection.
    So for example, if you have a customer that comes in, tests
    positive, and God forbid should they perish from the disease,
    that you might be a target of a lawsuit or one of your
    employees, you know, comes down positive. They might say you
    did not take every precaution and you end up getting sued. Now,
    you might have workers' comp in your state but nonetheless,
    even if you ultimately prevail, even if you win you lose
    because of the attorneys' fees and all the costs involved, any
    thoughts about whether we ought to be doing something in that
    area to protect small businesses like yourself from being
    targets of liability, either from a customer or from an
    employee?
        Mr. KETELSEN. You know, initially, that was a major concern
    of what is our liability in this situation or in this current
    scenario and then future scenarios as well and how do we plan
    that as a company to help mitigate or reduce those risks. Who
    do we turn to? And the people that we turned to obviously did
    not have great clear answers as well either just due to it just
    being something that was unknown.
        So that is an area that comes up that we constantly are
    discussing as a business, as leadership, and even as the
    employees on what kind of risks that people are willing to
    take.
        Mr. CHABOT. We have been considering a second round and
    that has been one of the stumbling blocks because one side
    thinks that we should have these protections in general and the
    other side thinks we should not, so that is one of the
    stumbling blocks.
        But let me shift over. I think Mr. Nath next.
        I have visited I think 60-plus small businesses in my
    community in trying to see how the PPP worked for them or how
    we could have done things differently, just how they are
    getting along. And several of them were in the childcare area.
    And you know, one of the things that I have heard when they
    were allowed to reopen or, you know, some were essential to
    begin with, but the bottom line is they had to have fewer
    children and they had some problem with some of the employees
    being concerned about their own health and other matters like
    that.
        Has that been an issue with you as far as the numbers of
    children that you can have and do you see that evolving over
    time, and is PPP allowing you to maybe weather that? You know,
    when do you become profitable again I guess is what I am
    asking.
        Mr. NATH. So PPP, the hard part about that is, you know,
    nobody knows the duration. You know, so we just basically did a
    guestimate of what we thought we would need and it basically
    lasted for two and a half payrolls. We are biweekly. That is
    why another round of that could be more beneficial because then
    we can go off of the data and the information that we have.
        Staff wise, you know, under these emergency guidelines, we
    were able to get plenty of individuals to sign up and be able
    to be there in case things increased. We ended up with about
    $22,000 in revenue from the summer program, and our staff costs
    were about $78,000. So that is a shortfall, you know, roughly
    $56,000. But again, we have local businesses that are
    supporting us in a way that I have had, you know, Grinnell
    College come up and say, hey, if you need anything let us know.
    We will donate to that. But again, it is a chicken or the egg
    type of situation with childcare. You know, those businesses,
    if they are not open, it is hard for them to support to
    generate revenue that can go to support childcare within the
    community. So there is a lot of complex situations.
        Mr. CHABOT. Thank you very much.
        I have one more question to a fellow Buckeye here, Mr.
    Duff. Obviously, we had a pretty aggressive governor in
    clamping down on this and trying to keep the people safe on
    masks and how many people could come in and dining inside and
    outside. Any thoughts there? Anything that you would like to
    see from here on that could be helpful to your businesses or
    others in your community?
        Mr. DUFF. Well, based on our COVID counts here in Logan
    County, you know, we have had experienced more of an economic
    crisis that has been damaging health. And of course, you know,
    every COVID case and every COVID death is a serious situation.
    But in my county here, in April, we were 31 percent
    unemployment. That is the highest in Ohio by 10 basis points.
    And a big part of that reason is that our Honda plants and our
    manufacturing plants that support automotive manufacturing were
    all closed and so were so many of our independent businesses in
    our small towns and our recreation areas. And so that cost, and
    the health crisis, what we are dealing with that cost is also
    very significant. So I think that we need to be looking at
    strategies for how we look at health in more of a global
    perspective that the virus is here and we are going to continue
    to work on that. But I think the work that this Committee is
    doing and then all of us here today need to be focusing on the
    health crisis related to the economy and how we can get people
    safely back to work and businesses safely reopened.
        Mr. CHABOT. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    And thank you to all the witnesses. I yield back.
        Chairwoman FINKENAUER. Thank you, Mr. Chabot.
        With that, I do not believe there are any more questions
    for today, so we will conclude. I want to say thank you again
    to all of our witnesses: Mr. Nath, Mr. Duff, Mr. Ketelsen, and
    Mr. Rembert. I also want to thank Ranking Member Dr. Joyce.
    This has been our first online official hearing, so we did it,
    but it would much better to get to see everybody in person. We
    hold out hope that this pandemic will get under control, we get
    vaccines, and we get everybody going again.
        In the meantime, having these types of discussions is going
    to be really, really helpful for us as we come through the
    pandemic and figure out how to stimulate our economy while
    ensuring we do not leave rural America behind as we do it.
        Thank you to our witnesses for taking the time to uplift
    what is happening on the ground. This was a really helpful
    discussion, and I think the members would agree here. We remain
    committed to listening and trying to figure out how we can do
    more of what works, how can we fix what does not work, and how
    can we again keep planning for the future. I will continue to
    uplift stories and solutions to leaders in the House, the
    Senate, and the White House, so we can come together, put
    differences aside, get people out of their corners, and respond
    to the needs of our small business owners, our essential
    workforce, and all the folks who are doing so much for our
    country right now but are worried every single day about what
    the future looks like.
        I am honored to be the Chairwoman of this Subcommittee
    because we do find common ground here. That is the way this is
    supposed to work. We will keep doing our best, and I know we
    are very grateful for all of you guys on the ground doing yours
    as well.
        Again, I want to say thank you and stay hopeful for the
    future even though I know there is a long way to go.
        With that, we will conclude this hearing. I would ask
    unanimous consent that members have 5 legislative days to
    submit statements and supporting materials for the record.
        Without objection, so ordered.
        If there is no further business to come before the
    Subcommittee, we are adjourned. Thank you.
        [Whereupon, at 2:15 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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