    [House Hearing, 116 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                        THE EXPANSION AND TROUBLING USE OF ICE
                                   DETENTION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                          IMMIGRATION AND CITIZENSHIP

                                     OF THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                               SEPTEMBER 26, 2019

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 116-53

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

          Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov

                                   __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    38-409                       WASHINGTON : 2020

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                       JERROLD NADLER, New York, Chairman
    ZOE LOFGREN, California              DOUG COLLINS, Georgia,
    SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas              Ranking Member
    STEVE COHEN, Tennessee               F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.
    HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,        Wisconsin
      Georgia                            STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
    THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida          LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
    KAREN BASS, California               JIM JORDAN, Ohio
    CEDRIC L. RICHMOND, Louisiana        KEN BUCK, Colorado
    HAKEEM S. JEFFRIES, New York         JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas
    DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island     MARTHA ROBY, Alabama
    ERIC SWALWELL, California            MATT GAETZ, Florida
    TED LIEU, California                 MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana
    JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland               ANDY BIGGS, Arizona
    PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington          TOM McCLINTOCK, California
    VAL BUTLER DEMINGS, Florida          DEBBIE LESKO, Arizona
    J. LUIS CORREA, California           GUY RESCHENTHALER, Pennsylvania
    MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania,      BEN CLINE, Virginia
      Vice-Chair                         KELLY ARMSTRONG, North
    SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas                Dakota
    JOE NEGUSE, Colorado                 W. GREGORY STEUBE, Florida
    LUCY McBATH, Georgia
    GREG STANTON, Arizona
    MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
    DEBBIE MUCARSEL-POWELL, Florida
    VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
            Perry Apelbaum, Majority Staff Director & Chief Counsel
                    Brendan Belair, Minority Staff Director

                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION AND CITIZENSHIP

                         ZOE LOFGREN, California, Chair
                    PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington, Vice-Chair
    J. LUIS CORREA, California           KEN BUCK, Colorado,
    SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas                Ranking Member
    JOE NEGUSE, Colorado                 ANDY BIGGS, Arizona
    DEBBIE MUCARSEL-POWELL,              TOM McCLINTOCK, California
      Florida                            DEBBIE LESKO, Arizona
    VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas              KELLY ARMSTRONG, North
    SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas              Dakota
    MARY GAY SCANLON,                    W. GREGORY STEUBE, Florida
      Pennsylvania
                        David Shahoulian, Chief Counsel
                        Andrea Loving, Minority Counsel

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               SEPTEMBER 26, 2019

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    The Honorable Pramila Jayapal, Washington, Subcommittee on
      Immigration and Citizenship, House Committee on the Judiciary..     2
    The Honorable Ken Buck, Colorado, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
      Immigration and Citizenship, House Committee on the Judiciary..     8
    The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Chairman, House Committee on the
      Judiciary......................................................     9

                                   WITNESSES

    Ms. Selene Saavedra-Roman, College Station, Texas
        Oral Testimony...............................................    42
        Prepared Statement...........................................    44
    Mr. Denis Davydov, San Jose, California
        Oral Testimony...............................................    50
        Prepared Statement...........................................    52
     Ms. Blanche Ornella Engochan, Silver Spring, Maryland
        Oral Testimony...............................................    56
        Prepared Statement...........................................    58
     Ms. Heidi Altman, Director of Policy, National Immigrant Justice
      Center
        Oral Testimony...............................................    60
        Prepared Statement...........................................    62
     Mr. Jorge Baron, Executive Director, Northwest Immigrant Rights
      Project
        Oral Testimony...............................................    77
        Prepared Statement...........................................    80
     Ms. Melanie Schikore, Executive Director, Interfaith Community
      for Detained Immigrants
        Oral Testimony...............................................    89
        Prepared Statement...........................................    91
     Mr. Thomas D. Homan, Former Acting Director, U.S. Immigration
      and Customs Enforcement
        Oral Testimony...............................................   100
        Prepared Statement...........................................   102
     Mr. Charles A. Jenkins, Sheriff, Frederick County Sheriff's
      Office
        Oral Testimony...............................................   107
        Prepared Statement...........................................   109

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    Prepared Statement of the Honorable Adam Smith; Submitted by the
      Honorable Pramila Jayapal......................................     4
    Complaint Filed by Civil Rights Organizations regarding ``Failure
      to provide adequate medical and mental health care to LGBTQ
      people and people living with HIV in Immigration detention
      facilities''; Letters of Support from over 70 LGBTQ and allied
      organizations, the National Council of Asian Pacific Americans,
      and Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkin, and; a Resolution of Support
      from the U.S. Conference of Mayors; Submitted by the Honorable
      Pramila Jayapal................................................    12
    Prepared Statements of the American Civil Liberties Union; Asian
      Americans Advancing Justice; the American Immigration Council;
      Al Otro Lado; the Center for Victims of Torture; Detention
      Watch Network; the Friends Committee on National Legislation;
      Government Accountability Project; the Interfaith Immigration
      Coalition; the National Immigration Forum; the Southeast Asia
      Resource Action Center; United We Dream, with their article
      with Center for American Progress entitled, ``DACA Recipients'
      Livelihoods, Families, and Sense of Security Are at Stake This
      November,'' and report entitled, ``The Truth About ICE & CBP,''
      and; Prepared Statement of Abdikadir Abdulahi Mohamed;
      Submitted by the Honorable Pramila Jayapal.....................   124
    Newsweek article entitled, ``Ex-ICE Director Says He Considered
      `Beating' Latino Congressman During Hearing''; Submitted by the
      Honorable Joe Neguse...........................................   217
    American Immigration Council and American Immigration Lawyers
      Association letter regarding ``Failure to Provide Adequate
      Medical and Mental Health Care to Individuals Detained in the
      Denver Contract Detention Facility,'' and American Civil
      Liberties Union Colorado report entitled, ``Cashing in on
      Cruelty''; Submitted by the Honorable Joe Neguse...............   222
    Medium article entitled, ``Between White Nationalism and Sheriff
      Chuck Jenkins''; Submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee.   239

                                    APPENDIX

    Statement of the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee....................   250
    Washington Post article entitled, ``The other problem with ICE
      detention: Solitary confinement''; Submitted by the Honorable
      Zoe Lofgren....................................................   260

                THE EXPANSION AND TROUBLING USE OF ICE DETENTION

                                  ----------

                          THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2019

                            House of Representatives

                  Subcommittee on Immigration and Citizenship

                           Committee on the Judiciary

                                Washington, DC.

        The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:31 a.m., in
    Room 2141, Rayburn Office Building, Hon. Zoe Lofgren [chairman
    of the subcommittee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Lofgren, Nadler, Jayapal, Correa,
    Garcia, Neguse, Mucarsel-Powell, Jackson Lee, Scanlon, Buck,
    Collins, Biggs, McClintock, Lesko, Armstrong, and Steube.
        Staff present: Joshua Breisblatt, Counsel; Rachel Calanni,
    Legislative Aide/Professional Staff Member; Andrea Loving,
    Minority Chief Counsel, Subcommittee on Immigration and
    Citizenship; and Andrea Woodard, Minority Professional Staff
    Member.
        Ms. Lofgren [presiding]. All of our witnesses are seated
    now. We welcome you, and the Subcommittee on Immigration and
    Citizenship will come to order.
        Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare
    recesses of the subcommittee at any time.
        We welcome everyone to this morning's hearing on the
    Expansion and Troubling Use of ICE Detention. The Trump
    Administration is detaining over 50,000 people daily, a 50
    percent higher rate than the previous Administration. With the
    lack of enforcement priorities in this Administration, we have
    seen a significant uptick in the detention of pregnant women,
    asylum seekers, and those without criminal convictions. At the
    same time, there have been several new inspector general
    reports, which we have had hearings on, that shed light on
    unsanitary and unsafe conditions in ICE facilities, and it is
    with this backdrop that we hold today's hearing.
        Now, I have chaired the Immigration Subcommittee this year
    and in prior years. One of the things I am committed to doing
    is to making sure that less senior members of the committee
    also have an opportunity to sit in the chair, have the
    opportunity to shape the hearing and learn how to preside. And
    with that in mind and without objection, my colleague and
    champion of this important issue, Representative Pramila
    Jayapal, will preside over this hearing. And I now recognize
    Ms. Jayapal for her opening statement, and ask her to take the
    chair.
        Ms. Jayapal [presiding]. Thank you so much, and good
    morning. I would like to thank my colleague, Representative
    Lofgren, chairwoman of the Immigration Subcommittee, for her
    tremendous work and for allowing me to chair this hearing
    today. I also recognize our chairman, Jerry Nadler.
        We have witnessed an unprecedented increase in the use of
    immigration detention over the last few decades. In the mid-
    1990s, the average number of people detained each day was under
    10,000, rising to about 20,000 in the early 2000s, and then
    hitting about 30,000 in 2010. Just 3 years ago, the average
    daily population was about 34,000. In stark contrast, as of
    September 7th, 2019, the average daily population of people
    detained in an ICE facility was over 52,000 people every day,
    well above the 45,000 that Congress provided funding for in the
    Fiscal Year 2019 appropriations bill, and 54 percent higher
    than in 2016.
        It is a universally-accepted fact that immigration
    detention is supposed to be a civil, non-punitive function.
    According to ICE, ``Detention is solely for the purpose of
    either awaiting the resolution of an individual's immigration
    case or to carry out a removal order. ICE does not detain for
    punitive reasons.'' However, the immigration detention system
    is a virtual replica of the criminal incarceration system,
    which is intended to be punitive. In many cases, individuals
    are detained in county jails alongside those who have been
    charged or convicted of violent crimes. It is for all intents
    and purposes immigration incarceration often with little or no
    due process.
        Whistleblower reports describe dangerous conditions and
    subpar medical care in various detention facilities. An ICE
    supervisor warned that ICE's own medical service provider was
    ``severely dysfunctional and that preventable harm and death to
    detained people has occurred.'' The supervisor stated that the
    facility staff ignored repeated warnings about the care of a
    man with schizophrenia who later died by suicide while in
    solitary confinement. In addition, the DHS inspector general
    has released multiple reports concluding that ICE detention
    conditions routinely ``undermine the protection of detained
    people's rights, their human treatment, and the provision of a
    safe and healthy environment.
        In one damning report about the Adelanto Detention Facility
    in California, the IG said that they found nooses dangling from
    air vents, talked to individuals unable to access basic dental
    care for months and years resulting in avoidable tooth loss,
    and wrote about a man in a wheelchair being placed in solitary
    and not once being moved to a bed to sleep or being permitted
    to brush his teeth for 9 days. Despite these serious findings,
    however, in October 2018, ICE gave Adelanto a passing rating
    during its last inspection.
        This blatant disregard for accountability and failure to
    conduct meaningful oversight is not confined to Adelanto. It is
    pervasive across the detention system. The inspector general
    has also written several reports concluding that, ``ICE does
    not adequately hold detention facility contractors accountable
    for not meeting performance standards.'' In addition, the IG
    found that rather than imposing financial penalties, ICE
    haphazardly issues waivers to facilities, even though the
    Agency does not have formal procedures and policies to provide
    waivers. Unsurprisingly, the inspector general has concluded
    that ICE's inspection and monitoring of its facilities does not
    produce compliance or lead to systemic improvements in the
    detention system.
        Further, we have seen growing numbers of pregnant people,
    asylum seekers, LGBTQ people, and other vulnerable populations
    in detention, as well as a disturbing surge in the detention of
    regular people, people who are trying to do the best that they
    can for themselves and their families, people living and
    working in our communities. Most Americans, I think, would be
    shocked to learn that the vast majority of people in detention
    have never been charged of a crime, much less convicted of one.
        In fact, the number of people who had never been convicted
    of a crime or convicted of a minor crime has increased by 58
    percent since September 26th and December 2018, resulting in
    the detention of about 39,000 people. And among those who do
    not have convictions, we would do well to look closely at those
    cases. ICE is detaining many people for minor crimes and, in
    some cases, older crimes where people have faced the justice
    system and moved on to lead healthy lives. All of this
    detention is unnecessary, inhumane, and wasteful.
        And who is the beneficiary of this system? Private for-
    profit prisons detain nearly three-quarters of all people in
    ICE custody. The average cost for detention of an adult is
    around $130 a day, and even more in family detention, about
    $298 per day of American taxpayer money. Since 2017, the top
    two private for-profit corporations, GEO Group and CoreCivic,
    have received over $730 million of taxpayer money in the form
    of ICE detention contracts.
        But we have sensible solutions. I have a bill that I
    introduced with the chairman of the Armed Services Committee,
    my colleague, Adam Smith. It is the Dignity for Detained
    Immigrants Act, and it would create justice and due process in
    the detention system by eliminating mandatory detention,
    terminating the use of for-profit prisons, increasing
    oversight, accountability, and transparency, and establishing
    real alternatives to detention. Without objection, I would like
    to make Congressman Smith's statement a part of the record.
        [The information follows:]

                          REP. JAYAPAL FOR THE RECORD

    =======================================================================

        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Jayapal. I am proud to hold this hearing today so we
    can talk about real solutions, and I look forward to hearing
    the testimony of our witnesses. And with that, it is now my
    pleasure to recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee,
    the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Buck, for his opening
    statement.
        Mr. Buck. Thank you. I want to begin my statement by
    recognizing the parents who are here of individuals who have
    been brutally murdered by illegal immigrants. I want to thank
    you very much for having the courage to appear today and let
    you know that we grieve with you, as all Americans do, for the
    unnecessary death of your children. Thank you very much.
        ICE detention serves a necessary role in the enforcement of
    our Nation's immigration laws. Detention ensures that an
    individual in removal proceedings will appear at any
    immigration hearing, and ensures ICE can effectuate a final
    order of removal. ICE detention is also an essential component
    of effective border security. The impact of ICE detention
    extends into the interior of the country to every community. By
    detaining individuals who face criminal charges or who have
    been convicted of serious crimes, ICE ensures that they are not
    free to re-offend. This reduces crime and enhances public
    safety in our communities for citizens and lawful immigrants
    alike.
        Approximately 95 percent of individuals in ICE custody are
    recent border crossers, convicted criminals, or face pending
    criminal charges. Of the detainee population arrested by ICE in
    the interior of the country, almost 90 percent of those
    individuals are convicted criminals or face pending criminal
    charges. Many of these individuals are involved in serious
    criminal activity, including assaults, homicide, drug dealing,
    DUIs, and gang activity. While sanctuary jurisdictions force
    law enforcement to disregard ICE detainers and release
    removeable criminals back into the community, many
    jurisdictions have partnered with ICE. These partnerships are
    based on the recognition that ICE detention helps keep
    dangerous criminals off of the street for good. I commend the
    work being done by State and local law enforcement officers who
    recognize the important role that ICE detention plays.
        It is also important recognize that ICE detention
    facilities are held to a high standard of custodial care to
    keep detainees safe and secure. Through the Performance-Based
    National Detention Standards, ICE ensures that the quality of
    care received by detainees is good, even higher in many cases
    than what U.S. citizens receive in State and local jails.
        In August I toured an ICE contracted detention facility in
    my home State of Colorado. Here is what I saw. I saw dedicated
    and professional staff and extensive health services, including
    access to medical treatment, dental care, and mental health
    care. Every detainee was offered preventive care, including an
    MMR vaccination, a telephone with toll free access to a
    detainee's consulate, a law library and immigration court,
    dormitories with a day room equipped with tables and chairs,
    televisions, games, and Xboxes, a commissary, microwaves and
    very clean food preparation facilities, indoor and outdoor
    recreational facilities, workout equipment, a basketball court,
    and opportunities to engage in a voluntary work program.
    Contrary to false claims from members of Congress, those are
    not the kinds of facilities reminiscent of a concentration
    camp.
        Others question the use of so-called for-profit prisons,
    arguing that the government should not contract with private
    detention facilities and denouncing such facilities as
    unaccountable and prone to provide poor care, but that that
    criticism is simply inaccurate. Contract detention facilities
    are accredited by third parties. They must comply with ICE's
    performance-based National Detention Standards, which impose a
    very high standard of care. If a facility wants to deviate from
    those strict standards, it must obtain a waiver from ICE.
    Facilities are held accountable for complying with the
    standards. A toll free hotline is available in multiple
    languages for detainees, staff, and members of the public to
    report any problems in detention.
        Information about the detention reporting and information
    line is provided to every detainee during orientation in the
    detainee handbook and advertised on flyers in English and
    Spanish throughout the facilities. The detention reporting and
    information line has resolved more than 2,000 case assistance
    calls monthly on average since it launched in September 2012.
        The inspector general also recently audited some
    facilities, and where deficiencies are discovered, ICE takes
    corrective action. Such facilities also tend to be newer and
    nicer than other facilities available in State and local jails,
    and many were actually designed with ICE standards in mind. The
    private sector has also been able to realize cost reductions
    without sacrificing quality of care, leading to a cost savings
    for American taxpayers. ICE detention serves an essential
    function and offers an appropriate custodial setting.
        I am pleased today to hear from the witnesses about the
    importance of ICE detention, the high-quality care detainees
    receive in custody, and urge my colleagues to ensure that ICE
    is funded at an adequate level to procure sufficient detention
    space and maintain high standards of care for those in custody.
    And I yield back.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Buck. I now recognize the
    chairman of the Judiciary Committee, the gentleman from New
    York, Mr. Nadler, for his opening statement.
        Chairman Nadler. Thank you, Madam Chair. Over the last 7
    months, this committee has devoted considerable attention to
    the Trump Administration's cruel policies at the border and its
    attempts to deter individuals from seeking asylum and other
    humanitarian protections from our Nation. Today we shift our
    focus to examining the impact of the Administration's approach
    to immigration detention in the interior of the United States.
        Unfortunately much of what has been observed in the
    interior is the same as what we have seen at the border. Under
    the Trump Administration, the number of people detained by
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement--ICE--has skyrocketed while
    detention conditions and Agency transparency and accountability
    have deteriorated. Detention levels have increased largely due
    to the Administration's manipulation of the budget process to
    expand the number of detention beds. As of September 14th,
    2019, ICE was holding 51,814 people in detention, roughly
    11,000 more people per day than what was authorized by the
    Fiscal Year 2019 appropriations bill.
        Of those detained, we are seeing an increasing number of
    women, including pregnant women, and asylum seekers who have
    committed no crime and who pose no threat to our country. Not
    surprisingly, with the increased number of detainees, we are
    also seeing an increase in reports of unsafe and sanitary
    conditions in detention facilities as well as allegations of
    mistreatment.
        In September 2018, the Department of Homeland Security
    inspector general documented significant violations of ICE's
    own detention standards, not to mention basic human dignity, at
    the Adelanto Detention Center in California. The IG observed
    nooses dangling from air vents--nooses--individuals denied
    access to basic dental care, and a disabled man being placed in
    segregation and left in his wheelchair unattended for 9 days.
    Such treatment should shock the conscience. Despite this,
    Adelanto passed its last ICE inspection in October 2018. A June
    2019 IG report also found unsanitary conditions in the Essex,
    New Jersey detention facility, including mold, spoiled food,
    and malfunctioning toilets. The IG also found that detainees at
    Essex suffered from a shortage of personal hygiene products,
    including soap and toiletries. Collectively, the violations at
    Essex were so severe that the IG's investigation led to
    immediate personnel changes at the facility.
        For most of American history, immigration matters have
    been, and are still today, adjudicated as a civil matter. In
    that spirit, the detention of immigrants in a system based on
    the criminal justice model should be the exception, not the
    rule. We have the capability to safely and compassionately
    process migrants, women, and children and to ensure that they
    appear for their scheduled hearings. Instead of relying on the
    physical detention of immigrants, ICE could employ a broad
    array of alternatives to detention with equal success, and at
    far less cost, and with much less brutality.
        Research has shown that automated telephone systems to
    remind people of their scheduled court dates and ankle monitors
    help ensure compliance for people released on their own with
    cognizance or on bond. According to Fiscal Year 2018 data, the
    average cost of detaining an immigrant per day is $208. In
    contrast, community-based alternatives to detention have been
    proven to operate effectively for as little as $17 per person
    per day.
        Further, the Family Case Management Program that ICE
    operated from January 2016 through June 2017 reduced compliance
    rates of 99 percent at a cost of just $38 per family per day.
    Despite the program's success, the Trump Administration
    terminated it. Fortunately, Congress has passed legislation
    that mandates that ICE restart the program this year.
        The Trump Administration's immigration policies have been a
    failure at a policy level and, more important, as a matter of
    basic human decency. I want to thank Chair Lofgren and Vice
    Chair Jayapal for holding this important hearing, and I thank
    all of today's witnesses for testifying, especially for those
    who have come forward to share their experience in ICE
    detention. I look forward to their testimony, and I yield back.
    I look forward to their testimony.
        I want to add one note before I yield back the balance of
    my time. We welcome, of course, the people here today as guests
    of--I am not sure of whom, but as guests--who are relatives of
    people who were murdered. But there is a terrible slander
    abetted by the President and by other people, a lie that says,
    in effect, that says directly, in fact, that illegal aliens, as
    they put it, immigrants are a danger to the United States, that
    they are criminals, that their rate of criminality is greater
    than that of native-born Americans, whereas, in fact, the
    statistics all show that every population, people born in the
    United States, people who come here legally, people who come
    here not with our laws. Some people are criminals. Some people
    are dangerous. But the statistics all show that immigrants,
    legal or otherwise, are less dangerous on average than native-
    born people. It is a slander bordering on racism to highlight
    the opposite. And I think it is time the Administration and
    whoever else practices this were called out on it. I yield back
    the balance of my time.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I introduce
    our witnesses, without objection I would like to make the
    following documents part of the record: a complaint filed
    yesterday regarding the failure to provide adequate medical and
    mental health care to LGBT people and people living with HIV in
    immigration detention facilities, letters of support for the
    Dignity for Detained Immigrants Act from over 70 LGBTQ and
    allied organizations, from the National Council of Asian
    Pacific Americans, from the Seattle mayor, my mayor, Jenny
    Durkin, and a resolution of support from the U.S. Conference of
    Mayors.

                          REP. JAYAPAL FOR THE RECORD

    =======================================================================

        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        It is now my pleasure to introduce today's witnesses, and I
    want to thank all of you for being with us today and for taking
    the time to be here before the committee.
        First, we have Selene Saavedra Roman. Ms. Roman is a DACA
    recipient who currently works as a flight attendant for Mesa
    Airlines. She is a graduate of Texas A&M University and also
    has experience working in office administration, physical
    therapy, and early childhood education. We thank her for her
    courage and strength to share her experience in ICE detention
    and the treatment she received with us today. For the next
    witness, I would like to recognize my colleague from California
    to introduce our next witness.
        Ms. Lofgren. Thank you. I would like to introduce Denis
    Davydov. He is an asylee from Russia who fled to the United
    States because of Russia's anti-gay propaganda and the brutal
    violence that accompanies it. He is also here to share his
    experience in ICE detention. Mr. Davydov was granted asylum
    earlier this year. He now works as a sommelier in California.
    He is a spokesperson for immigrant equality and an advocate for
    LGBTQ and HIV-positive asylum seekers, and he also lives in San
    Jose, California which I represent. And we are happy to have
    you here, and I yield back.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Ms. Lofgren. Our next witness is
    Blanche Engochan. Ms. Engochan is an asylee from Cameroon, who
    has been a victim of the Administration's metering policy, CBP
    detention, and ICE detention. She was granted asylum this
    summer and released from immigration detention after more than
    6 months in custody. She now resides in Maryland and lives with
    her aunt. We commend her courage for testifying before us
    today, and we look forward to her testimony.
        Our next witnesses Heidi Altman. Heidi Altman is the
    director of policy at the National Immigrant Justice Center, an
    organization that provides legal services to more than 10,000
    vulnerable immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers each year.
    Previously, Ms. Altman served as the legal director for the
    Capitol Area Immigrant Rights Coalition. She created the in-
    house Immigration Services Program at the Neighborhood Defender
    Service of Harlem, and has served as a teaching fellow for
    Georgetown Law School's immigration clinic. Ms. Altman received
    her B.A. from Yale University and her J.D. from NYU Law School.
        Our next witness is Jorge Baron. Mr. Baron has served as
    the director of the Northwest Immigrant Rights Project since
    2008 and has worked with the organization since 2006. The
    Northwest Immigrant Rights Project is a legal services
    organization that also engages in community education on and
    advocacy for the rights of low-income immigrants and refugees.
    Previously Mr. Barone served as a law clerk at the U.S. Court
    of Appeals for the 9th Circuit in Seattle and held a fellowship
    with the New Haven Legal Assistance Association in Connecticut.
    Mr. Barone is a graduate of Duke University and Yale Law
    School, and I am very proud to say is a constituent of mine.
    Thank you, Mr. Baron, for being here.
        Melanie Schikore is executive director of the Interfaith
    Community for Detained Immigrants where she leads their efforts
    on comprehensive community and policy responses to detention.
    Ms. Schikore is an academic who specializes in immigration
    policy and has previously taught and completed research at
    institutions, including Concordia University, DePaul
    University, and Northwestern University. She received her B.A.
    from St. Louis University and her M.A. and Ph.D. from the
    University of Illinois. Thank you for being with us.
        Our next witness is Thomas Homan. Mr. Homan served as
    acting director of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
    from January of 2017 to June of 2018. Prior to this, he served
    as executive associate director of ICE Enforcement and Removal
    Operations and has held a variety of other positions within the
    Agency since its creation. He served as a Federal law
    enforcement office for more than 34 years, as a police officer,
    Border Patrol agent, and as an agent of the former Immigration
    and Naturalization Service. He received his B.A. in criminal
    justice from State University of New York Polytechnic
    Institute. Thank you for being with us, Mr. Homan.
        Sheriff Charles Jenkins is currently serving his 4th term
    as sheriff of Frederick County, Maryland, and is an active
    member of the Maryland Sheriffs Association and the National
    Sheriffs Association. In his involvement with the National
    Sheriffs Association, he is partnered with DHS and ICE to
    participate in the 287(g) Delegation of Authority Program and
    the Intergovernmental Services Agreement, ICE Detainee Housing
    Program. Sheriff Jenkins has testified multiple times before
    the Maryland legislature and the U.S. Congress on immigration
    and law enforcement issues.
        We welcome all of our distinguished witnesses, and we thank
    you for participating in today's hearing. Now, if you would
    please rise, I will begin by swearing you in. Raise your right
    hand.
        Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the
    testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best
    of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God?
        [A chorus of ayes.]
        Ms. Jayapal. Let the record show that the witnesses
    answered in the affirmative. Thank you, and please be seated.
        We will move onto the witness testimony part of this
    hearing. Please note that each of your written statements will
    be entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, I ask
    that you summarize your testimony in 5 minutes. To help you
    stay within that time, there is a timing light on your table.
    When the light switches from green to yellow, you have 1 minute
    to conclude your testimony. When the light turns red, it
    signals that your 5 minutes have expired. Ms. Roman, you may
    begin.

     TESTIMONIES OF SELENE SAAVEDRA ROMAN, COLLEGE STATION; DENIS
    DAVYDOV, SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA; BLANCHE ORNELIA ENGOCHAN, SILVER
     SPRING, MARYLAND; HEIDI ALTMAN, DIRECTOR OF POLICY, NATIONAL
      IMMIGRANT JUSTICE CENTER; JORGE BARON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
    NORTHWEST IMMIGRANT RIGHTS PROJECT; MELANIE SCHIKORE, EXECUTIVE
    DIRECTOR, INTERFAITH COMMUNITY FOR DETAINED IMMIGRANTS; THOMAS
    D. HOMAN, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS
    ENFORCEMENT; AND CHARLES A. JENKINS, SHERIFF, FREDERICK COUNTY
                            SHERIFF'S OFFICE

                   TESTIMONY OF SELENE SAAVEDRA ROMAN

        Ms. Roman. Good morning. Thank you for inviting me to
    testify at this important hearing today. My name is Selene
    Saavedra Roman, and I was detained for 38 days in an ICE
    detention center.
        I was brought to the United States of America undocumented
    at the age of 4. I attended public school in my home State of
    Texas and graduated from Texas A&M with a bachelor's degree in
    allied health and a minor in communications. I am a former
    Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals recipient, which
    provided me a sense of relief from the looming fear of
    deportation. In 2017, I married my husband, David, who is a
    U.S. citizen and my petitioner for residency through an I-130,
    which was approved. The petition is the only first step of a
    lengthy journey to obtain residency, which we hoped would lead
    to my citizenship.
        In November 2018, I was hired by Mesa Airlines, Inc. as a
    flight attendant. On February 12th, 2019, I was assigned my
    first international flight to Monterrey, Mexico. I received
    reassurance from Mesa Airlines the day prior that I would be
    able to take the international flight. Everything went fine on
    the flight to Mexico, but when I arrived to George W. Bush
    Intercontinental Airport, I was detained at U.S. Customs. After
    24 hours in a waiting room at the airport and never having been
    explained clearly what was going on, it was determined that I
    was to be sent to an ICE detention center. This is how I
    arrived at the Montgomery Processing Center in Conroe, Texas.
        Let me tell you what I experienced while at the MPC. My
    first morning in the dorm hall, I was awakened by another woman
    who hurriedly explained that she and I were in charge of
    cleaning the bathroom that morning. I thought it was a joke at
    first. We only had brooms and a soapy mixture of water and
    shower gel to do the job. It was barely 4:30 a.m., and yet as
    soon as we finished cleaning, the guards finally yelled at us
    that it was time for breakfast.
        At mealtimes, we would only get 15 minutes to eat, the food
    was always cold and tasteless, and there was never any fresh
    fruit. The tables were dirty, they were not cleaned between
    dorm rotations, and after the last dorm would eat, the guard
    would ask for volunteers to clean the cafeteria when it was
    their responsibility. Can you imagine the mess? It was
    disgusting.
        We were given used underwear, we slept in freezing
    temperatures with no pillows, and we were forced to do labor
    with threat of isolation if not compliant. I watched one woman
    refuse to clean. She had already cleaned the dorm next door,
    and, as a result, she was put in isolation for several weeks.
    When she came out of isolation, she looked so distraught. She
    had plucked her eyebrows from all the stress she endured.
        Why are we being forced to clean? This is supposed to be a
    civil detention center, but instead we were treated as though
    we were serving a criminal sentence. We were just people who
    were awaiting our immigration trials. After that, I knew not to
    argue or talk back. We were made to believe by the guards that
    refusing any orders would lead to write-ups to directly affect
    our immigration cases. Many women worried that it would hurt
    their asylum cases.
        These feelings of fear and powerlessness consumed us and
    loomed over us. They permeated the entire dorm. Still, I cannot
    help wondering why we were all being treated like this. How
    could we be treated like we didn't mean anything? The guards
    would bully me around with their words and degrading comments,
    but were surprised and would back off when I would respond to
    them in English. There is so much more I could say about the
    poor conditions at MPC, like the freezing temperatures, the
    mattresses made of hard plastic, and the pillows, long time
    spent indoors with little outside recreation or fresh air, and
    no contact or visitation.
        But what I would like to leave you with is the impact that
    this detention center had on me. I lived in a constant state of
    uncertainty and fear each and every one of the 38 days that I
    was detained. I felt hopeless, powerless, and lost. I couldn't
    even look at myself in the mirror. My hair started to fall out.
    I am now experiencing constant levels of clinical depression
    and anxiety.
        This detention center broke my spirit. I lost faith in our
    institutions. I still have nightmares about what I endured at
    MPC. I am not the person I was before this whole situation
    happened. It is not easy for me to talk about this experience,
    but I am doing it because I can no longer be quiet. If this was
    my experience after 38 days, what must it be like for those who
    are held for months or even years? The people of the United
    States need to know the truth of what is going on in these
    detention centers. Thank you.
        [The statement of Ms. Roman follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Jayapal. Ms. Saavedra Roman, thank you so much for your
    courageous testimony. I am sorry you endured what you did. Mr.
    Davydov, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

                       TESTIMONY OF DENIS DAVYDOV

        Mr. Davydov. Chairwoman Lofgren, Vice Chairman Jayapal,
    Ranking Member Buck, and distinguished members of the
    subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before
    you today about the 46 days I should have never spent in ICE
    detention. My name is Denis Davydov, and I'm a gay man from
    Russia living with HIV. I am sharing my story in partnership
    with Immigration Equality, the nonprofit that represented me
    during my 5-year asylum process, and in support of all LGBTQ
    and HIV-positive people in detention.
        In 2013, I had no choice but to escape Russia and come to
    the United States. Just 1 year prior, the Russian government
    passed an anti-gay propaganda law which painted gay people as
    perverts who were killing the country. Vigilante groups
    attacked and raped gay men and posted the videos online. The
    police did nothing about it, and I lived with the constant fear
    that I would be harmed. As an HIV-positive gay man, my life was
    even more at risk. HIV is seen as a gay disease in Russia, and
    seeking treatment could make me a target for violence.
        I went into hiding and stopped getting my medication, and
    with the spike in homophobia and lack of HIV treatment
    medication in Russia, I feared my situation would get much
    worse. I couldn't live like that anymore. I got a 6-month's
    U.S. tourist visa and flew to San Francisco. I remember it was
    the best place on the planet for gay people.
        For the first time ever, it didn't matter that I was gay. I
    could be open about all aspects of my life. It was magical. I
    joined a support group for HIV-positive people and I finally
    felt safe. I couldn't go back to Russia where the situation was
    becoming more hopeless for gay and HIV-positive people.
        I applied for asylum after my tourist visa expired, which
    allowed me to get a job and travel within the U.S. I wanted to
    explore this beautiful country, so I went on a week-long
    vacation to the U.S. Virgin Islands, but I was stopped by
    immigration officers at the airport on my way back to San
    Francisco and interrogated about my legal status. I told them I
    had an asylum case pending, that I am a resident of California
    with a Social Security number, paying my taxes, but they
    accused me of entering the U.S. for the first time and
    violating my visa. Then they arrested me.
        I was flown to a large detention facility in Miami, Krome.
    They put me in handcuffs, ankle bracelets, and wrapped a chain
    around my waist. And for the next 46 days, I was Mr. 876-
    Russia.
        And for 10 years I had been managing my HIV in a way that
    allowed me to live safely and comfortably. When I was detained,
    my control over my health was completely taken away from me. To
    protect my compromised immune system from any infection, I need
    to follow a certain diet, have access to appropriate hygiene,
    and sleep well. Immigration detention didn't provide me with
    any of those things. I was held in a space with 100 other
    people where my compromised immune system was exposed to any
    virus or infection they had. Within week of being detained, I
    developed a fungal infection. This caused a rash, and I had
    itchy red spots on my genitals, and also I developed a cold and
    fever. And despite my coughing and sneezing and fatigue, the
    officers wouldn't let me rest. I couldn't sleep at night
    because I got so cold and it was loud with 100 people in the
    room, and I developed insomnia from stress.
        Once I spent 5 hours waiting in a freezing concrete room to
    see a specialist, and after 4 hours they told me he wouldn't be
    able to see me, and the doctor wouldn't be back for 2 days. My
    lawyer explained to the immigration judge that each day I spent
    in detention put my life in danger, but he didn't seem to care.
    As an HIV-positive gay man, I had a strong asylum case, but he
    didn't seem to care. Even though I did everything right in my
    asylum application, he didn't seem to care.
        I got an asylum interview notice while I was in detention,
    but the judge wouldn't let me attend. He wouldn't halt my
    deportation proceedings. I spent another month in detention. I
    spent my 30th birthday in detention as a criminal in the eyes
    of the U.S. government, and I never thought this country would
    treat an HIV-positive gay man this way. It felt like it was
    happening to someone else. It wasn't my story.
        So in July of this year, 5 years after arriving in the
    United States, I won my asylum. It was a huge relief for me. I
    felt a security I have never felt before. I can now start
    building a future knowing I'll never have to go into hiding
    again. I'm asking all of you sitting before me today to protect
    the rights of asylum seekers so they can find the same relief
    and security I did, to dismantle obstacles to those seeking
    safe haven in this beautiful country, to clear the path to
    LGBTQ and HIV-positive asylum seekers to find what they can't
    in our home countries, and support safety and freedom to be who
    we are. Thank you very much.
        [The statement of Mr. Davydov follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you very much for your testimony, Mr.
    Davydov. Ms. Engochan, you have 5 minutes.

                 TESTIMONY OF BLANCHE ORNELIA ENGOCHAN

        Ms. Engochan. Chairwoman Lofgren, Vice Chairman Jayapal,
    Ranking Member Buck, and distinguished members of the
    Subcommittee on Immigration and Citizenship, thank you for the
    opportunity to speak today about my experience as an asylum
    seeker in the United States.
        I didn't want to leave Cameroon. It was my home, and it was
    home to the people I loved. Like all refugees, I was forced to
    leave. I decided to come to the United States. It was the
    obvious choice. The United States is a powerful country that
    would protect me. Since I was a child, I knew America welcome
    people from all over the world. It would be a hard journey, but
    at the end of it, I would, I assumed, find some safety and
    peace. I never imagined that I would be put in chains or locked
    up in a crowded detention center with other traumatized humans.
    Sorry. Oh, my god.
        Ms. Jayapal. It is okay. Take your time.
        Ms. Engochan. On February 2019, I crossed the United States
    at the San Ysidro port of entry in San Diego. I was taken into
    custody. Two things stood out in my memory. One is the bitter
    cold in my cell. The other is my bitter fear. I had no idea
    what would happen. For all I knew, I would never be free again.
    Two weeks later when they transported me, they put me in
    chains. I now know this is called 5-point shackles. I didn't
    understand why they were treating me like a dangerous criminal.
    I still carry that humiliation with me.
        After a brief stop in Arizona, I was taken to the Adelanto
    Detention Facility in California. The good news was that maybe
    an asylum officer would give me an idea what was happening. The
    bad news I was trapped in a cruel place. At Adelanto, we
    weren't given enough food. I was hungry all the time, and I was
    tired all the time. I had trouble sleeping because of the fear
    that I would be sent back to my country. The light didn't go
    off until 1:00 in the night, and we were woken up only a few
    hours later, between 4:00 and 5:00 a.m. The medical staff run
    tests on me twice, but after the second test, they never told
    me the result, even though I was detained for several months.
        Maybe the worst thing in Adelanto was all the crying, women
    crying because they were reliving trauma or because they had
    suffered new abuse, or because they had gotten bad news in
    their case. The detention center is a house of tears. I applied
    for parole, but it was denied even though I had a sponsor.
    Other women had more than one sponsor and were also denied
    parole. There seemed to be no hope for me. Then I applied for a
    lawyer. That certain process was a mystery to me. The thought
    of facing a judge alone with my life and freedom on the line,
    that terrified me. I was lucky. I got a lawyer from Human
    Rights First. If not for her, I would probably still be locked
    up or deported back to danger in my country.
        At my hearing, the judge told me I had received asylum, and
    that same day I was released from Adelanto after over 6 months
    in detention. I am grateful for the asylum. I am living with my
    aunt, and I am looking forward to my new life. But my painful
    past is still with me, and it includes the months I spent
    locked up in the United States. It does not have to be this
    way. There are alternatives to detention that help asylum
    seekers understand how to apply for asylum and where and when
    to show up for our hearings.
        Locking up refugees who seek asylum is senseless and
    expensive. The cruelty costs a lot of money. I urge you please
    use alternative detention programs. Expand them. The United
    States, of all countries, should not treat refugees like
    criminals. Thank you very much.
        [The statement of Ms. Engochan follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much for your powerful testimony.
    Ms. Altman.

                       TESTIMONY OF HEIDI ALTMAN

        Ms. Altman. Chairman Nadler, Chairwoman Lofgren, Acting
    Chairman Jayapal, Ranking Member Buck, and distinguished
    members of the committee. My name is Heidi Altman. I serve as
    the director of policy at the National Immigrant Justice
    Center, NIJC. We are a legal services and advocacy organization
    working to advance the human rights of all immigrants. I am so
    grateful for the light being shown on this issue today. I am
    grateful for the opportunity to be here today and to be
    following the brave and moving testimony of these three
    individuals to my right who survived the destructive system
    that is the topic of this hearing.
        NIJC has for decades endeavored to advocate for the legal
    and human rights of immigrants in immigration jails throughout
    the Midwest and nationally. And those experiences have brought
    us to one inexorable conclusion: the United States immigration
    detention system must end.
        I am mindful as we sit here today of a young man named
    Chris, an NIJC client. He is a legal permanent resident of the
    United States who has been here since he was 13. And while his
    deportation case proceeds, ICE is holding him right now without
    the opportunity to seek bond in a county jail in Illinois where
    he has been for 10 months. Chris had already served his court-
    ordered sentence for the drug-related offenses that formed the
    basis of the immigration case against him, and these offenses
    stemmed from struggles with addiction that date back to his
    childhood when he bore responsibility for the care of his
    mother, who is paralyzed from the neck down. Chris' time in
    immigration detention, which, unlike his criminal sentence has
    no set end date, served to destabilize his family and disrupt
    his own recovery. And so today we have to ask, toward what end.
        Chris is one of nearly 500,000 people held by ICE this
    Fiscal Year in a detention system made up for more than 200
    county jails and private prisons that contract with ICE for
    profit. The Trump Administration would have us believe that the
    only way to manage the migration processing system is by
    locking up those going through the process, but it hasn't
    always been this way, and it doesn't need to be this way now.
    There are alternatives, smarter, and cheaper, and kinder, and
    effective alternatives as you will hear in great detail from my
    colleague, Ms. Schikore.
        But the immigration detention system as we know it today
    constitutes a relatively new experiment in American history. In
    the mid-1950s, in fact, the United States government
    intentionally rejected the institutional use of detention for
    migration processing, and this move was widely heralded as a
    forward progress marker. This forward progress halted in the
    1980s, however, when the government adopted a policy of the
    mass detention of arriving Haitian refugees and explicitly
    named as its goal the deterrence of future refugees. Yet the
    system took root, and through the 1980s and 1990s, the same
    political winds contributing to the mass incarceration of
    communities of color across the United States fueled the
    expansion of the immigration detention system into for-profit
    prisons and into county jails.
        This Administration's commitment to expanding this already-
    bloated system was signaled from day one. The White House's
    proposed budget for Fiscal Year 2018 sought $2.7 billion to
    ramp up detention capacity to 51,379 people daily, a number
    they have already surpassed. This astonishing growth has been
    achieved in direct violation of congressional intent through
    the transfer and reprogramming of funds across agencies, and
    largely driven by the for-profit prison agency.
        This system that is so rapidly expanding is designed for
    impunity. There are no formal or enforceable regulations
    providing the minimal standards of care. DHS' own inspector
    general has sounded the alarm repeatedly regarding deficiencies
    and corruption in contracting and inspection, and, as a result,
    abuses persist with little recourse for those harmed.
        Medical negligence by ICE and its contractors is
    responsible for about half of all deaths in custody, and yet
    men and women continue to die with no remedial measures in
    place. Thousands of immigrants suffer for months, even years,
    in solitary confinement, tantamount to torture, while others,
    as you have heard, are served moldy food. Hunger strikes and
    attempts at suicide are common. This cycle of abuse and
    impunity reflects our government's failure to respect the
    dignity of the lives of those detained, and it is shameful.
        Today I urge all members of Congress to begin doing the
    hard work of laying a foundation to end the use of immigration
    detention, and while charting that course, to finally and
    urgently bringing meaningful accountability to the system. Some
    quick steps toward that end. Visit an immigration detention
    center in your district. See what's happening. Engage with it.
    Cut funding for ICE's detention and enforcement accounts.
    Support restrictions in DHS' transfer authority. Support
    investments in nonprofit-operated community-based alternatives,
    and support the Dignity for Detained Immigrants Act, which
    remedies many of the most harmful aspects of the detention
    system, including ending mandatory detention, ensuring a
    presumption of liberty rather than a presumption of detention
    for all immigrants, and ending the use of private prisons and
    county jails for immigration detention.
        I look forward to working with each of you towards a humane
    future. Thank you for being here today.
        [The statement of Ms. Altman follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Ms. Altman. Mr. Baron, you are
    recognized.

                        TESTIMONY OF JORGE BARON

        Ms. Baron. Chairman Nadler, Chairwoman Lofgren, Vice Chair
    Jayapal, Ranking Member Buck, and distinguished members of the
    subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to address you
    today. My name is Jorge Baron, and I serve as the executive
    director of the Northwest Immigrant Rights Project, a
    nationally-recognized legal services organization that provides
    immigration assistance to over 20,000 low-income people each
    year in Washington State.
        I will focus my remarks on the Trump Administration is
    moving on two different fronts to make it nearly impossible for
    asylum seekers to be released from immigration detention. As a
    way of background, when asylum seekers arrive at our borders,
    they are generally placed in the expedited removal process, and
    they are not even considered for release until they have passed
    a credible fear interview. At that point, depending on their
    manner of entry, they may be eligible for a bond hearing before
    an immigration judge or to ask ICE for release on parole.
    Unfortunately, the Administration is moving to eliminate one
    option and severely undermine the other. In other words, if the
    Administration has its way, asylum seekers will be detained
    indefinitely.
        With regard to bond hearings, it has been settled law for
    decades that asylum seekers who arrive in ports of entry and
    pass a credible fear interview are eligible to seek release on
    bond from an immigration judge while their full asylum case is
    considered. It was settled law, at least until April of this
    year when Attorney General Barr issued a ruling in a case known
    as Matter of M-S-. In that case, Attorney General Barr purports
    to reinterpret the immigration statutes to find that asylum
    seekers are no longer entitled to bond hearings.
        Thankfully, the Attorney General's ruling is currently on
    hold because of the courage of one our clients, Yolany Padilla.
    Ms. Padilla arrived in the United States in May 2018 with her
    6-year-old son with the intention of seeking asylum, and turned
    herself into Border Patrol agents at the southern border. A few
    hours after Ms. Padilla and her son were taken into custody,
    Ms. Padilla's son was forcibly separated from her without
    explanation. Ms. Padilla was then taken a detention center in
    Texas and later transferred by ICE to Washington State.
        Weeks went by, and Ms. Padilla remained detained without a
    hearing, without a credible fear interview that would initiate
    the asylum process, and, most importantly to Ms. Padilla,
    without any contact with her son. And Ms. Padilla was not alone
    as there were over 200 asylum seekers in a similar situation at
    the same Federal prison where the women were being held.
        Working with our partners, we eventually had to file a
    Federal class action case on behalf of Ms. Padilla and several
    other parents who had been detained for weeks without any
    action on their cases. While the case, known as Padilla v. ICE,
    was originally focused on the delays in providing credible fear
    interviews and bond hearings to asylum seekers, after the
    Attorney General's decision Matter of M-S-, the case sought to
    challenge this ruling as well. And in July, U.S. District Judge
    Marsha Pechman decided that Attorney General Barr could not
    take away bond hearings from asylum seekers and put his ruling
    on hold. However, the government has appealed the decision to
    the 9th Circuit, and the risk, therefore, remains that Attorney
    General Barr's decision may still take effect.
        I should note that thanks to the litigation, Ms. Padilla
    was granted a bond hearing, was released from detention, and
    was reunited with her son. But if the Administration has its
    way, future asylum seekers in Ms. Padilla's situation will
    remain detained subject ICE's unreviewable discretion, which
    brings me to the topic of parole. Some detained asylum seekers
    are not eligible for bond hearings, and for them, being granted
    parole by ICE is the only mechanism to obtain release from
    immigration detention. Yet since 2017, the rate at which ICE
    has granted parole to arriving asylum seekers has dropped to
    zero or close to zero in some parts of the country.
        An analysis of five ICE field offices in 2017 found that
    less than 4 percent of parole requests by asylum seekers were
    approved, even though 92 percent of such requests at those same
    offices had been approved just a few years earlier. The New
    Orleans field office of ICE granted parole in only 2 out of 130
    cases in 2018 and none in 2019 as of a few weeks ago, all of
    this despite the fact that ICE contends that it continues to
    abide by the same 2009 policy directive. These practices are
    being challenged in litigation, and a Federal judge has issued
    an injunction to prevent a number of ICE field offices from
    denying parole in violation of its own policy. However, reports
    from the field indicate that even these judicial orders have
    not put a stop to ICE's unlawful practices.
        We have faced similar challenges in Washington State.
    Frequently, requests for parole are simply ignored despite
    multiple attempts at communication with local ICE officials.
    And our staff reported parole denials in cases that present
    compelling circumstances for release and that would've been
    approved in prior years. As just one example, NIRP is currently
    representing a young man who arrived to the United States as an
    unaccompanied child and was initially placed with the Office of
    Refugee Resettlement. He remained in ORR custody until the day
    he turned 18, when he was transferred to the Northwest
    Detention Center where he has spent 18 months in detention all
    while awaiting a decision on his asylum application from USCIS.
    ICE has twice denied a request for parole on his behalf, and he
    remains locked up as of this moment despite his significant
    ties to the community, is not representing any danger, and his
    having no control over when USCIS will resolve his case.
        In closing, given the Administration's attempt to eliminate
    or undermine the ability of asylum seekers to obtain release
    from detention, we call on Congress to move forcefully away
    from the widespread incarceration of immigrants. As immediate
    steps, we urge Congress to pass into law H.R. 2415, the Dignity
    for Detained Immigrants Act, which addresses some of the most
    urgent problems in the immigrant detention system through
    reduced funding for ICE detention and invests in community-
    based alternatives to detention programs, and to create a
    robust and effective accountability system that addresses the
    human rights abuses in the immigration detention system. Thank
    you for your attention.
        [The statement of Mr. Baron follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Japayal. Thank you, Mr. Baron. Ms. Schikore.

                     TESTIMONY OF MELANIE SCHIKORE

        Ms. Schikore. Chairman Nadler, Madam Chairwoman Lofgren,
    Vice Chairwoman Jayapal, Ranking Member Buck, distinguished
    members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to
    share my experiences and recommendations. It is an honor.
        My name is Melanie Schikore, and I'm the executive director
    of the Interfaith Community for Detained Immigrants, known as
    ICDI, a 501(c)(3) in Chicago. It is in the spirit of
    compassionate advocacy that I represent 10 staff and over 300
    volunteers from 16 different faiths and testify about immigrant
    detention and alternatives to detention to inform decision-
    making regarding H.R. 2415, the Dignity for Detained Immigrants
    Act of 2019.
        We uphold the dignity and worth of all human beings,
    including ICE officers and county jail staff. All of the
    world's faiths have a way of referencing our interconnectedness
    and our responsibility to care for one another. I've worked in
    a multitude of settings in the realm of immigration since 1990.
    Immigration is the human-made system we create around the human
    need to migrate. When a person's safety, livelihood, beliefs,
    or family are threatened, they leave and seek a place where
    they can do what we all hope to do: live, love, laugh, learn,
    and be part of a safe community. This is not a crime. It is a
    right.
        Five of our six programs align with the current immigration
    system and mitigate the harms of a system modeled after a
    criminal system. On an annual basis, we make over 8,000
    detention visits, monitor over 2,000 court hearings, pray with
    over 3,000 people being deported, assist over 500 people who
    call our hotline upon release, and provide spiritual care for
    1,500 detained children. Our care is vital, but it is a
    spiritual band-aid in a system that needs a complete overhaul
    and redesign. We should not be detaining people at the rate
    that we do, nor in the conditions of the current detention
    system.
        Our sixth program, the Marie Joseph House of Hospitality,
    is an alternative to detention and a model for a different
    future. Here we are free to design care based on the needs of
    human beings. Participants enter this program through ICE or
    lawyer referral by inquiries we make about people we visit or
    from the children centers when a young person ages out, which
    disrupts the standard operating procedure of shackling them and
    taking them to jail on their 18th birthdays.
        Everyone in our care receives individualized case
    management. We create a short- and long-term plan and refer
    them to medical, dental, mental health, legal, educational, and
    vocational services. Participants learn English, how to take
    public transportation, how to budget and open a bank account,
    use a gas stove, bundle themselves for Chicago winter, enroll
    in school, and much more. They live in a supportive community,
    make friends, get work authorization, and find jobs, adjusting
    to life in this country and becoming independent. ATDs cost a
    fraction of what detention does, and they have good compliance
    rates. But what you get for your dollar is even more important.
    No one leaves a detention center better than when they got
    there, but everyone leaves Marie Joseph House better than when
    they got there.
        Forty years ago, we did not have the detention system that
    we do now. In that time, private companies have carved out
    their profit niche on the backs of immigrants. It is not the
    global norm. In the words of one of our participants from
    Ghana, ``I traveled through 14 countries to get here, and the
    only place they shackled me and put me in jail was the United
    States. `Welcome to America,' they said.'' We're part of a
    global network of over 400 organizations and individuals in 90
    countries that advocate for research and provide direct
    services to refugees, asylum seekers, and migrants affected by
    immigration detention.
        How do we justify putting someone fleeing Nigeria because
    his life is in danger for being gay into jail? This ICDI
    participant got asylum, just passed the MCAT, and is being
    solicited by medical schools around the country. How do we
    justify detaining and separating for over 4 months Ms. L. and
    her 7-year-old who were fleeing persecution in the Congo? These
    ICDI participants were reunited in our house. The daughter, who
    speaks five languages, by the way, is in school, and mom is
    learning English and job seeking. Each of our participants has
    a story like this. ATDs are a crucial part of solving the
    brokenness of our immigration system. The vast majority of
    people seeking refuge in the United States do not pose a
    threat. It is a stain on our Nation's history to imprison
    people who are vulnerable, have significant trauma histories,
    and are doing what anyone, what any of us would do if we could
    not live safely or take care of our family where we were.
        Based on the direct experience of ICDI and the immense body
    of literature supporting a humane approach to migration, I urge
    you all to do your part in reforming and reconfiguring the
    current system such that human needs are centered, and
    detention is used minimally and only as a last resort. Lastly,
    I urge you to work to surface the roto causes of migration and
    intervene when always possible, especially when U.S. trade
    policies, political interventions, and consumerism make us
    complicit in the conditions that cause the need to migrate.
    Thank you.
        [The statement of Ms. Schikore follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Japayal. Thank you, Ms. Schikore. Mr. Homan, you are
    recognized for 5 minutes.

                      TESTIMONY OF THOMAS D. HOMAN

        Mr. Homan. Chairwoman Lofgren, Ranking Member Buck,
    Chairman Nadler, Ranking Member Collins, in recent weeks there
    has been a slew of stories and baseless claims that have
    compared U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement detention
    facilities to that of notorious Nazi death camps. That
    comparison is 100 percent inaccurate, and it is disgusting to
    compare us to the atrocities of the Holocaust, for God's sakes.
        There has been several attacks on our facilities and
    attacks against our agents and officers. There's also been
    attacks against our contractors that run these facilities for
    us. After more than 3 decades of enforcing immigration law, I
    can assure you that if we do not have the ability to detain
    those that illegally enter our country until they see a judge
    and plead their case, we will never solve the immigration
    crisis on the border.
        Here are a few facts you need to know that I think America
    would be shocked at. Seventy-two percent of everybody in ICE
    are in custody because Congress mandates it. So before you shut
    down immigration detention, you need to look at the law. Nearly
    9 out of 10 people ICE arrests have a criminal history or
    pending criminal charges. They are public safety threats. Our
    contract facilities have the highest detention standards in the
    industry, fact. There's not another State or Federal facility
    that has the detention standards we have. Go to ICE.gov. Look
    up PBNDS-11. I think a lot of taxpayers would be insulted on
    the amount of money we spend and such high standards, highest
    standards in the industry, best facilities in the world.
        Now, forgive me, I didn't think Nazi death camps had
    detention standards. I didn't think they had healthcare. I
    didn't think they had recreation, law libraries, visitation,
    three squares a day. It's just an insulting comparison.
        Well, I really don't think this hearing is about ICE
    detention. This is my third hearing since retirement. I've been
    asked why do I put myself through this to come up here and, you
    know, be insulted like I have the last two hearings. Because I
    love the men and women of ICE and Border Patrol. I know what
    it's like to wear that uniform and stand in that line, and I
    will defend the men and women of the Border Patrol and ICE
    until the day I die. This hearing is just another grandstanding
    political theater to attack our President and this
    Administration and the men and women who serve in this
    Administration.
        I talked about the attacks on the ICE facility. We had
    shots fired at our facility in San Antonio, barely missing an
    agent, almost killing him. We had a detention facility that was
    attempted to be burned down with 1,400 people in it, 1,300
    which are immigrants waiting for their detention. I didn't hear
    one thing from the Democrat leadership about those issues. I've
    heard the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, make the comment
    that ICE agents terrorize innocent immigrant communities. ICE
    doesn't arrest immigrant people, innocent immigrants. ICE
    arrests people who are here in violation of Federal law, the
    law that you enacted. They enforce the law.
        But there's people in Congress that call for the
    abolishment of ICE because they don't like what ICE does. ICE
    is merely enforcing the laws you enact. If you don't like it,
    change the law. You're the legislators. But don't vilify the
    men and women of ICE and the Border Patrol. Nancy Pelosi said
    yesterday the President is not above the law, but she thinks
    illegal aliens who have a final order issued by a Federal judge
    is above the law because when the President announced a
    national operation to seek those out who had due process and
    been ordered removed, she thought that was a terrible thing to
    do. She went on national TV and talked about how to evade ICE
    officers, how to not open the doors. So apparently they're
    above the law because when a Federal judge issues a final order
    after a due process, it means nothing.
        You got Ocasio-Cortez who calls our places concentration
    camps. You got Congressman Yvette Clarke who stood in front of
    an ICE building and called us the Gestapo. You got Congressman
    Escobar, whose name tag is over there, but she's not here. She
    had a press the other day, 2 weeks ago. She compared ICE agents
    to monsters under children's beds. And we wonder why ICE agents
    are being attacked and our facilities being shot at and being
    burned down. We wonder why spouses and children of Border
    Patrol are bullied in schools and churches.
        Last hearing I was called a racist and a bigot because I
    enforced the laws that you enacted. If I'm a racist and bigot
    for enforcing the laws that you enacted, what's that make you?
    You wrote the law, but rather than changing the law and making
    sense of the law, it's easier to call for the abolishment of a
    Federal law enforcement agency. The men and women and ICE and
    Border Patrol are national heroes. They're American patriots by
    the very fact they put a gun on their hip every day and wear a
    Kevlar vest. That is your tools of the trade. They put their
    lives on the line for this country every day. They deserve
    better than these attacks from our congressional
    representatives.
        I've buried many Border Patrol agents, I've buried ICE
    agents, and those kind of attacks dishonor their memory. It
    dishonors their family. This world is upside down when the
    people who knowingly violate the laws are the victims and those
    who enforce the laws are the bad guys. I'm here to answer your
    questions. I hope this is a meaningful discussion. I doubt any
    legislation will come out of this because it's yet another
    hearing on political theater against our President.
        [The statement of Mr. Homan follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Japayal. Thank you, Mr. Homan. Sheriff Jenkins, you are
    recognized for 5 minutes.

                    TESTIMONY OF CHARLES A. JENKINS

        Sheriff Jenkins. Good morning. Mr. Chairman, Madam
    Chairwoman, ranking members and members, I want to offer my
    perspective from local law enforcement on the importance of ICE
    detention, honoring ICE detainers, local cooperation with ICE,
    and how that cooperation really enhances and improves local
    public safety. We're at a crisis point in this country.
    Congress needs to take serious measures right now in the
    enforcement of our immigration laws both at the border and on
    the interior. These two missions have overlapping serious
    impacts to public safety. One of the critical pieces is
    detention facilities.
        We have chaos on the southern border, criminal and gang
    infiltration of every city, county, and community in the United
    States, and sanctuary jurisdictions that have placed their
    citizens at risk by failing to cooperate with ICE or even
    recognize ICE. The hostility against ICE has to stop and
    demonizing has to end. Detention and expeditious removal of
    criminal aliens are key components of overall public safety. It
    is an imperative that ICE has access to suitable detention
    facilities throughout the United States.
        From my perspective, the infiltration of criminal alien
    crime and criminal gangs, such MS-13, across our open borders
    and in our communities has severely endangered the public
    safety of every city and every county in America. There's been
    a level of violence never before experienced in this country.
    This situation would be much worse without ICE doing their job.
    We have allowed the heroin and opioid trafficking networks to
    establish themselves across the entire country through open
    borders and sanctuary policies with cartels continually
    infusing heroin, fentanyl, and other dangerous drugs into
    America.
        Nowhere is it more evident than my home county of Frederick
    in Maryland just an hour away from here where we've seen in the
    past 7 years record numbers of both fatal and nonfatal
    overdoses. For 11 years, my office has partnered with ICE, the
    287(g) Program, and the Intergovernmental Services Agreement,
    IGSA Housing, Housing Program. These programs are both examples
    of the importance and effectiveness of adequate detention beds
    for ICE.
        The IGSA Agreement provides detention space in the local
    jail or prison and provides ICE with detention beds to keep
    those criminals off the street and not be released back into
    our communities. The 287(g) Partnership Program assists ICE. It
    facilitates a process within the confines of the jail. No
    actions are taken on the street whatsoever. No questions are
    asked regarding immigration status. We have trained
    correctional officers who work the program under the direct
    supervision of ICE, close supervision and oversight.
        And I reemphasize that everything occurs within that jail
    facility, nothing on the street. These local agreements are
    critical and have had the most direct on local public safety.
    They ensure that after criminals are adjudicated and sentences
    are served, that those criminals with detainers are not
    released back onto the streets of Frederick County to commit
    what are often more serious and often violent crimes. Gang
    membership, by the way, should be an automatic removable
    offense and nullify any DACA protection.
        The 287(g) Program has been very effective over the past 11
    years in removing criminal aliens from Frederick County. Over
    11 years, there have been 1,692 detainers lodged with 1,536 of
    those detainers served, and those individuals placed into
    removal. Included in that number are 110 transnational criminal
    gang members, the majority being MS-13. In Frederick County,
    for 5 consecutive years, we have experienced significant
    reductions in Part I or serious crime. We're now in our 6th
    year. Sanctuary policies across this country have to be
    stopped. You're going to have to eliminate and deny all grants
    to sanctuary grants, eliminate the catch-and-release loopholes,
    and enforce asylum policies to the letter.
        I want to mention my neighboring county, Montgomery County,
    which has recently declared being a sanctuary county. In the
    past, I'd say, year, they've had nine rapes of young children.
    They've had a 67 percent increase in MS-13 crime over the past
    year. Crimes that have shocked the conscience of this Nation
    are continuing to happen, and they're totally unnecessary and
    avoidable.
        I want to talk about that jails and prisons must simply
    cooperate with ICE to hold a criminal alien, and I do encourage
    that you fund and promote more 287(g) programs. I want to
    briefly touch on the detention standards some of you mentioned.
    The Federal detention standards are the highest standards out
    there. We actually meet all those standards and beyond. We just
    recently underwent an ODO inspection a week ago before I came
    down here. Nothing in our jail is subpar. Those higher
    standards are met, and the standards are higher than under
    President Obama. So you have an obligation to Americans, first
    and foremost, before any obligation you might feel you have to
    the people in this country illegally.
        Americans are frustrated and tired of the open border issue
    and not enforcing the law. This is all about the rule of law,
    and I encourage you to support President Trump in his efforts
    to move this issue forward, both the interior enforcement and
    the border crisis. Thank you.
        [The statement of Sheriff Jenkins follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Japayal. Thank you, Sheriff Jenkins. We will now
    proceed under the 5-minute rule with questions, and I will
    begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes.
        It occurs to me in listening to the compelling testimonies
    of our first three witnesses that there are two stories being
    told here. And one is the story of immigrants being murderers,
    criminals, rapists, people to fear, and the other the story of
    countless thousands of people who are being put into
    immigration jails and incarcerated when they are here with no
    charge, no conviction, and just awaiting their immigration
    process to continue. In the last few years, the Trump
    Administration has gone around Congress and has taken millions
    in funding for crucial functions like hurricane preparedness to
    unlawfully expand detention. The Trump Administration would
    like to have you believe that this is necessary, but I do not
    believe that is the case.
        Mr. Baron, your organization, the Northwest Immigrant
    Rights Project, provides legal services to people detained at
    one of the largest detention facilities in the country, the
    Northwest Detention Center. What does the detained population
    there look like? Who are the vast majority of people, the tens
    of thousands of people that NIRP has served over the many years
    in service? Tell us about that detained population. Who are
    they?
        Ms. Baron. Yes, most of the people that we serve and most
    of the people who are detained at the Northwest Detention
    Center are asylum seekers who have been detained. That
    sometimes surprises people because there actually have been
    people who have been detained at the southern border by Customs
    and Border Protection and then brought up to the Northwest
    Detention Center to undergo their asylum hearings. In most
    cases, they have already passed their credible fear interview,
    meaning that they have already been screened and found to have
    a significant possibility of qualifying for humanitarian
    protection here in the U.S. And those are the majority of the
    people who are in our detention center.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. Ms. Altman, in your role as policy
    director at the National Immigrant Justice Center, is that
    consistent with national trends that you see? Who do you
    typically see making up the vast majority of people in
    detention?
        Ms. Altman. It is consistent, Congresswoman. As of the most
    recent data released by ICE, about 65 percent of those in
    detention were transferred from the border, which is almost
    exclusively an asylum-seeking population, 35 percent taken from
    communities inside the United States.
        Ms. Jayapal. And we have three witnesses here today who are
    survivors of the U.S. detention system. I am so sorry on behalf
    of our government for what you have experienced, but I am glad
    that you are here today to courageously share your stories. Ms.
    Saavedra Roman, ICE detained you for over a month, even though
    you have legal status under DACA, correct?
        Ms. Roman. Yes, ma'am. DACA was current during that time.
        Ms. Jayapal. So you had current legal status, and yet you
    were detained as if you were a prisoner, as you said. Mr.
    Davydov, ICE detained you for 46 days, even though you were
    complying with your court proceedings and you had a pending
    asylum case, a case which you just won a few months ago,
    correct?
        Mr. Davydov. Yes, it is correct.
        Ms. Jayapal. And, Ms. Engochan, you came to the United
    States seeking asylum, and ICE detained you for 6 months,
    releasing you after you were granted asylum, correct?
        Ms. Engochan. Yes, over 6 months.
        Ms. Jayapal. Ms. Altman, according to the 2019 Senate
    Appropriations Committee report, ICE continues to spend at an
    unsustainable rate. The report proposes that, ``In light of the
    committee's persistent and growing concerns about ICE's lack of
    fiscal discipline, whether real or manufactured, and its
    inability to manage detention resources within the
    appropriations made by law, without the threat of anti-
    deficiency, the committee strongly discourages transfer or
    reprogramming requests to cover ICE's excesses.'' In light of
    this report, would you recommend that ICE continue to be given
    appropriations that are outside the ``appropriations made by
    law?''
        Ms. Altman. I would certainly recommend against that and
    strongly recommend that DHS' transfer and reprogramming
    authority be restricted into the ICE enforcement and detention
    account. And it is warranted by a history now that we know at
    least 4 years in a row of overspending what Congress has
    provided, and then taking accounts, as you mentioned, money
    from other priorities, such as FEMA, to make up for it.
        Ms. Jayapal. Ms. Schikore, what is the cost of detention
    compared to the cost of alternatives to detention that could be
    used for people that have never been convicted, much less
    charged with a crime?
        Ms. Schikore. The cost difference of ATDs?
        Ms. Jayapal. Yes.
        Ms. Schikore. As I mentioned, ATDs cost a fraction of what
    detention costs. Studies put the cost between $12 and $50 a day
    for ATDs versus $70 to $200 a day for detention. And as I
    mentioned in my testimony, you have to ask what are you getting
    for this money.
        Ms. Jayapal. And how have other countries made use of ATDs?
    What are some of those examples of successes, and what best
    practices can be applied?
        Ms. Schikore. The International Detention Coalition has
    identified over 250 examples of alternatives from 60 different
    countries. One that I could highlight is the Toronto Bail
    Program in Canada. This program has been operating since 1996.
    It is funded by the government, and it relies on strong case
    management, support, information, and advice, and supervision.
    The case managers also identify and address issues such as
    substance abuse, drug addiction, mental health needs, as our
    program does. This program only costs Canada $10 to $12 per
    person compared to $179 for detention, and has maintained a
    retention rate from 94 to 96 percent.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Ms. Schikore. My time has expired.
    And with that, I recognize the gentleman from Arizona, Mr.
    Biggs.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I will just say that
    this hearing is meant to be on the expansion of ICE facilities
    and ICE detentions. So I just want to talk about some of the
    things that actually happen in ICE detention, at least in one
    facility. They have awarded 2,779 GEDs and high school
    equivalency degrees, awarded 9,131 vocational training
    certifications, and awarded 8,842 substance abuse treatment
    program completions in the 2018 time period. That is remarkable
    by any standards. By any standards.
        But we are not spending our time talking about any of this
    today. We have had some testimony. I want to say thank you, Mr.
    Homan and Sheriff Jenkins, for being here. I thought your
    testimony was compelling as well. And I have to say, and I am
    going to bring it up, and I am not trying to defend. I just
    want to talk about facts. The DACA Program is not a change of
    status from illegal to legal. What it is is deferment actions
    that provides use of temporary status to be in this country
    illegally. So that works out that way.
        But DACA is very clear. You can't leave the United States
    without prior authorization. To do so is a violation of DACA
    and, in turn, actually has the potential to actually change
    your status. And so I'm sorry you were detained, but that is
    the law. I mean, this is a rule of law country. That is what
    makes America different. Those protections preserve Americans'
    freedom throughout the world is the rule of law in and of
    itself.
        Mr. Davydov, I am glad you got asylum. I am okay with that.
    But you said in your testimony, in your written, I came on a
    tourist visa with the intention to stay in the U.S. Guess what
    that is? That is a violation of the law. And then you waited
    until that visa expired and applied for asylum. Guess what that
    is? That is a violation of law. That is what it says in your
    statement. That is what you said today. So even though you were
    granted, it is unusual, I think, to say I can break the laws of
    this country twice, but I want to asylum to be here. I am fine
    with you being here, but the point is you violated the law
    twice.
        The testimony and the evidence is clear and the data is
    clear, 9 out of 10 people that are in ICE custody have some
    kind of criminal background. That is why they are there. ICE is
    out there, but they are criticized. We have people saying let's
    defund ICE. We have people on this panel today say let's reduce
    the funding for ICE.
        ICE is under tremendous pressure because someone mentioned
    the astonishing growth in ICE detentions. Well, you know what
    caused that? How about 148,000 people rushing the border in 1
    month in this country, 1 month on the southern border. I live
    in a border State. I grew up in southern Arizona. I have been
    down to the border, and I have visited facilities a half a
    dozen times, I believe it is, this year. I have spent weeks
    literally on the border accumulated this year, and in ICE
    detention facilities and other holding facilities.
        I know what goes on, so when you say go down, I am there. I
    am there. I see it. I talk to people almost every day, whether
    they are ranchers, or how about this one? How about the Steve
    Ronnebeck family? Explain to them, Grant killed by an illegal
    alien. Shot point blank. The man was deported twice. Mary Ann
    Mendoza who lost her son, Brandon. Killed by an illegal alien.
    We don't hear about that.
        How about this? We are talking about 287(g), Sheriff
    Jenkins. How about this? You got Santa Clara County,
    California. Guess what? Guess what we just have here? What you
    have is on Monday, ICE captured a violent criminal and
    convicted rapist who was a fugitive for a year and a half. The
    reason he was a fugitive is because Santa Clara County refused
    to honor an ICE detainer in February of 2018, even though he
    was arrested. Why was he arrested? For not registering as a sex
    offender. These programs put Americans in jeopardy.
        Mr. Homan, is there anything you would like to respond to,
    what you have heard today?
        Mr. Homan. Yeah, I would like to respond to Acting Chairman
    Jayapal and your comment about the Trump Administration moving
    money around for more detention beds. I would like to remind
    you under the Obama Administration we did it most of the years
    he was President. We moved money around DHS. It is called
    reprogramming. We did that under the Obama Administration, and
    I don't remember any hearings on that. And also I would like to
    remind you that under the Obama Administration, I mean, you are
    quick to point out the cages were built under the Obama
    Administration. I was there. Family detention. We had 100
    family beds. Under the Obama Administration we built 3,000
    more.
        So when there was a surge in Fiscal Year 2014 and Fiscal
    Year 2015 on the border, Congress was quick to give all the
    money we needed to build detention facilities, get
    transportation contracts. We reprogrammed money the majority of
    the years he was President. That was fine. Under the Obama
    Administration, Fiscal Year 2012, we removed 409,000, people of
    what was removed last year. There was no hearings on that. So,
    you know, if this is about transparency, let's be factual about
    it.
        Ms. Jayapal. The time of the gentleman has expired. Since
    you did address some comments at me, I will just say that I
    didn't like it under the Obama Administration either. In fact--
    --
        Mr. Homan. Well, be honest with the American people.
        Ms. Jayapal. Excuse me.
        Mr. Homan. You can't point out faults in the Trump
    Administration when it happened under the Obama Administration.
        Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Homan.
        Mr. Homan. That is dishonesty. It is pathetic, and it is
    sad.
        Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Homan, I control the time, and I am the
    chairwoman of the committee. Thank you for respecting that. I
    didn't like it under the Obama Administration, and I will
    remind you, Mr. Homan, that you also testified before Congress
    in support of the Obama's priorities and enforcement program
    before the Senate Judiciary Committee on May 19th, 2016, which
    had a very different approach.
        Mr. Homan. Well, can I respond to that?
        Ms. Jayapal. With that----
        Mr. Homan. Can I respond to that?
        Ms. Jayapal. No, you may not.
        Mr. Homan. Of course not.
        Ms. Jayapal. With that, I recognize the chairman of the
    Judiciary Committee, Mr. Nadler, for 5 minutes.
        Chairman Nadler. Thank you. I want to make a couple
    comments before I start the questions. We have heard about the
    overcrowding, about the lack of adequate funding, about the
    overcrowding, about how many people are kept in detention, and
    how necessary it is to protect the public safety.
        We heard from three witnesses here. We heard from Ms.
    Saavedra Roman. She was a DACA recipient. She was a threat to
    nobody. Her employer made a mistake and said as a flight
    attendant she should go to a foreign country. It wasn't her
    fault. And she was kept in detention for 38 days, wasting
    money, not to mention her liberty. We heard from Mr. Davydov
    that he fled for his life. Yeah, he may have come here under
    false pretenses. That is what asylum seekers fleeing for their
    life, they have to do. He was granted asylum because our courts
    recognized the threat to his life, and we heard how in custody
    his medical needs were ignored. He got infections because HIV
    medications were not provided, and there was a total lack of
    regard by ICE for his medical condition.
        So we heard from Ms. Engochan who fled for her life from
    Cameroon and was granted asylum by our courts, recognizing the
    threat to her life. She was kept in custody for 6 months. We
    also heard from Mr. Davydov that while he was in custody, he
    missed an asylum hearing or a credible fear hearing, and
    apparently ICE doesn't allow people to go to their asylum or
    credible fear hearings? I am not sure how he got asylum anyway,
    but that certainly risked it.
        So I am unimpressed when I hear from Mr. Homan about the
    good, and we heard about the terrible conditions, the lack of
    heat, the lack of decent food, the terrible crowding, we have
    heard that before. So I am unimpressed when I hear from Mr.
    Homan about how wonderful the facilities are.
        Ms. Schikore, I want to discuss alternatives to detention.
    We have heard a lot from the Administration about how
    individuals in removal proceedings do not show up to their
    court dates when they are in an alternative to detention, like
    ankle monitors and phone check-ins. At the same time, I have
    seen data that shows how compliance rates are high and even
    higher, around 95 percent, when an individual actually has an
    attorney. What is the likelihood someone will show up to court
    under alternatives to detention as compared to in detention?
        Ms. Schikore. In our particular program, we have had full
    compliance, and this includes someone----
        Chairman Nadler. One hundred percent.
        Ms. Schikore. A hundred percent in our program, and this
    includes someone who ultimately was deported who turned himself
    in. Across the board, the literature shows, the research shows
    that compliance rates are high. Community-based programs
    address the factors that make compliance difficult, such as
    substance abuse, drug addiction, mental health issues, and
    things like a lack of transportation, a lack of understanding
    of court proceedings, and legalese. In Chicago we had an issue
    where there was a lack of signage in the courts, so people
    couldn't understand it and were not making their court dates.
    And then there is also the concern about wrong court dates and
    the use of fake court dates on placeholders when people get
    notice. That is a big problem for people showing up on time.
    But across the board, the alternatives have very high
    compliance rates.
        Chairman Nadler. High compliance rates. Thank you. Ms.
    Altman, I want to turn to you. Could you help us address some
    of the issues that have been mentioned related to immigrants
    and crime and deportations and crime rates? My understanding is
    that the data shows no correlation between deportations and a
    reduction in crime rates. Is that correct?
        Ms. Altman. That is correct, Congressman, and I thank you
    for your comments at the outset. The public safety arguments
    today attempt to paint immigrants in broad strokes. I agree
    that they further racist tropes. Most importantly, though, they
    are specious. They are not based on the data. ICE's own data
    disproves them in addition to the numerous studies that you
    mentioned that show that there is absolutely no correlation
    between place of birth or immigration status and crime rates in
    the United States.
        We actually have a whole body of new evidence that just
    came out this summer, very robust evidence out of the
    University of California-Davis showing that programs like
    287(g) and Secure Communities the sheriff trumpets, programs
    that increase deportations and detentions in community, have
    absolutely no impact on crime rates, and, in fact, showed a
    very marginal increase in crime rates. On the other hand, we
    know from, again, numerous studies that what these increased
    detentions and deportations do is to destabilize communities,
    to disrupt families, to take breadwinners away from their homes
    leading to homelessness, food insecurity, and numerous problems
    with outcomes of children who are being raised now without a
    mother or father.
        Chairman Nadler. So the propaganda about the connection
    between immigrants and crime is just that, propaganda, and that
    there is no evidence or considerable evidence to the contrary
    that immigrants, whether legal or otherwise, commit crimes at a
    lower rate, equal or lower rate than people here to start with?
    Is that correct?
        Ms. Altman. That is correct. It is for political purposes,
    sir.
        Chairman Nadler. Thank you very much. I yield back.
        Ms. Jayapal. The time of the gentleman has expired. I now
    recognize the gentlewoman from Arizona, Mrs. Lesko, for 5
    minutes.
        Mrs. Lesko. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Thank you, all of
    you, for being here today. One of the witnesses, I think
    Melanie Schikore, if I said your name right, said, ``We really
    need to address the root causes of migration,'' people coming
    here, and I couldn't agree more. In fact, the Republicans on
    this committee, including myself, I have six bills myself that
    have been sent to the Judiciary Committee that I believe will
    get to the root cause of the problem and help solve the border
    crisis. And I hope that Chairman Nadler will hear those bills
    so we can get to the root cause of the problem.
        I live in Arizona. I recently toured the Eloy, Arizona
    Detention Facility there. I went inside a cell. I saw what was
    happening with the health checkups, and I also sat down and ate
    lunch with the detainees, and it was like cafeteria food, kind
    of like from school. And I have to tell you, I didn't see all
    these egregious things that have happened, and so obviously if
    there are bad things happening, we need to correct them.
        And so, Mr. Homan, you know, the inspector general has
    certain recommendations when there was problems in detention
    centers. And do you know if ICE has agreed to fix those
    problems and what is the status of fixing those problems?
        Mr. Homan. Yeah, when the inspector general has a finding,
    ICE has a certain amount of days to correct that finding and
    return the report to the IG. So, yeah, there are instances
    where there are failures, but we got to remember, you can point
    out six, seven cases here all day, but 400,000 people come
    through our system a year. And my testimony, even though some
    people may be unimpressed with it, is factual. The highest
    detention standards in the industry. Highest. And Congressman--
    --
        Voice. [Off audio.]
        Mr. Homan. Yeah, made a statement earlier about, you know,
    how many people got GEDs, but no one here is talking about how
    many lives we saved in immigration detention. Many times we are
    the first doctors these people see. They come to us in bad
    shape after making a terrible journey. Many times we provide
    the first doctor they have ever seen. In our family residential
    centers, we provide the first vaccinations for these children.
        Mrs. Lesko. Well----
        Mr. Homan. And as far as the criminals have no impact on
    crime, removing 127,000 criminal aliens from the United States
    certainly has an impact on less crime in the United States. And
    as far as illegal aliens committing less crimes, I don't know.
    I know the Cato study everybody once referred to is a flawed
    study because it wasn't based on data. It wasn't based on State
    and local arrests because most crimes are State and local
    arrests.
        Here is the question that needs to be answered. How many
    crimes could have been prevented if the illegal alien wasn't
    here? If we had true border security, we could prevent a lot of
    crimes from happening. So it isn't who commits more. It is that
    this series of crimes was certainly preventable if we secure
    our border.
        Mrs. Lesko. Well, and thank you. And so, you know, I
    basically want to say the facilities I have been to, they were
    all clean, well maintained. I have not only gone to a detention
    center, I went to a facility where they house unaccompanied
    children. That was a very nice facility. We are doing
    education. And if there are problems, they need to be addressed
    just like in any agency. And so my understanding is that ICE
    has said, yes, we will follow the recommendations by the
    inspector general and have worked on correcting them.
        I want to applaud the men and women that work for ICE and
    our Customs and Border Patrol. Unfortunately, you are right,
    they have been villainized. Now, are there cases that may be
    bad? There are cases that are bad in any type of agency. We
    need to address them. But let's please not villainize our law
    enforcement. They are doing the best they can under a very huge
    crisis problem. And I agree, we need to get to the root of the
    problem. We need to reform our immigration laws because right
    now they are an incentive for all these people to have to
    travel thousands of miles from Central America to come here,
    that is what we need to get at.
        And I hope, Mr. Chairman, that you will hear our bills in
    committee. And with that, I yield back my time.
        Ms. Jayapal. The gentlewoman yields back. The gentlewoman
    from California is recognized for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Lofgren. Thank you. I think this is a useful hearing,
    and I have got to say that asylum is part of American
    immigration law. It is not illegal to apply for asylum. Having
    said that, I think obviously there are issues going on in
    Central America that have led people to flee, and it would be
    very useful for the United States to play the lead to try and
    help those countries stabilize so that people don't have to
    flee for their lives. Having said that, we have a lady here
    today who fled for her life from Cameroon, so there are people
    who are seeking political asylum from all over the world, and
    our laws provide for that because we have been a beacon of hope
    and a sign of freedom, an example for the world, for many
    years.
        Now, I want to talk to you because you live in my district,
    Mr. Davydov. I want to thank you for coming to tell your story.
    As someone who is HIV positive, you obviously need specific
    medical attention and care, which you mentioned. Can you
    describe the medical treatment you receive or didn't receive in
    a little more detail in ICE detention?
        Mr. Davydov. Sure. I received my prescribed medicine, but I
    received it in California after I told them I needed it. But
    the problem is, the HIV treatment is just a part of the whole
    thing.
        Ms. Lofgren. Just a part of it?
        Mr. Davydov. Yes, and since I didn't know the cause of my
    infections, either it was stress or, like----
        Ms. Lofgren. You cannot, your immune----
        Mr. Davydov. Yes, my immune system showed some signs of
    infection, and it was the problem, my secondary infections,
    then they started manifesting. I could not get treatment or a
    doctor who could even tell me anything about that. And in some
    cases, I was waiting for many days to just be seen by a doctor.
        Ms. Lofgren. You know, I just to want to mention a concern
    that I have. In December of 2017, the Trump Administration
    ended what had been a presumption that if you are pregnant,
    that you will be released from custody because of the
    vulnerability you have as a pregnant woman. That is no longer
    the case. And so we have got pregnant women in custody who are
    seeking asylum, and the number of miscarriages has doubled. We
    have even stillbirths in custody. And I think that I would just
    say that is something that ought to be revisited because to
    have miscarriages or stillbirths is just not the right thing.
    And this policy does promote that, and it serves no one's
    interest to have that occur.
        I would just say further, I have also visited these
    facilities, and I know that when I have visited facilities,
    there is a scurry around in advance to clean things up a little
    bit before you come. I think it is telling that we have had an
    employee of the Department of Homeland Security in the Trump
    Administration advising that there are serious problems in ICE
    custody provisions, a report in December of 2017. You are
    right, Mr. Homan, you have a chance to respond and to improve.
    But that was followed by a similarly damaging report in
    September of 2018 from the Inspector General of the Department
    of Homeland Security. And, again, just this June we had what
    was transmitted as an emergency report from the Department of
    Homeland Security about conditions in confinement.
        We have a problem here in how individuals are being treated
    in these facilities. I think there is a management problem
    here. I mean, to think that we would have this young lady, a
    flight attendant, held at tremendous government expense, she
    doesn't pose a threat to anybody, or Mr. Davydov, he doesn't
    pose a threat to anybody, or the gentlelady from Cameroon, she
    doesn't pose a threat to anybody. And we spent a whole lot of
    money keeping them chains as if they were a threat. It is a
    waste of money. It is a waste of the taxpayers' money in
    addition to being very traumatic for the individuals involved.
        I think we need to revisit how we are spending our money,
    and we are wasting huge amounts of the taxpayers' money locking
    people up who pose no threat and really not honing in on things
    that are important. You know, I realize there can be a
    circumstances when someone does need to be detained. You know,
    we all know that that is the case. But to spend our resources
    for this flight attendant was really a waste of taxpayer's
    money. I yield back, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Jayapal. I thank the gentleman for yielding, and I now
    recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Steube, for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Steube. Thank you, Madam Chair. There is a crisis at
    our southern border. And just for this year--I had staff pull
    the number--just for this year, and this does not include
    September numbers, just for this year, 811,000 illegal
    immigrants have been detained at the southern border. Now, let
    me put that in perspective for you. That is larger than my
    entire congressional district. So an entire congressional
    district of people, which I represent nine counties in the
    State of Florida, nine counties in the State of Florida, more
    than that population have illegally entered our country.
        In Fiscal Year 2018, 92 percent of aliens in ICE custody
    were either convicted criminals, had pending criminal charges,
    or were recent border entrants, and the cite is on ICE's
    website. It is the Fiscal Year 2018 report. All you have to do
    is go and look. That is what the report states. Yet we sit here
    and we do absolutely nothing to address this crisis at our
    border. I see people here who appear to have children or family
    members that were killed by illegal immigrants, yet we are
    doing absolutely nothing to address illegal immigrants that are
    coming into our country and killing our own very citizens.
        I think Mr. Homan said it best. Our country is upside down.
    We have those breaking our Federal laws being characterized as
    victims, and those who are enforcing our laws, the laws that
    this body created, being demonized as villains. And thank God
    we have a President willing to take on this crisis. Thank God
    we have men and women in our ICE and in our law enforcement
    that are willing to stand up and swear an oath to our
    Constitution to serve and protect our Nation and our country.
        I don't know. My father is a retired sheriff. My brother is
    a deputy in a local sheriff's office in Manatee County,
    Florida. He has served for 18 years. And I have frequent
    conversations with them. I don't know how Americans today would
    be willing to serve in law enforcement. During the time that my
    dad went in 40 years ago, law enforcement officers were
    respected, they were revered, and that just isn't the case
    anymore. I don't know anybody that would be willing to serve
    right now given the fact that law enforcement officers are
    specifically targeted to be killed. They are being, as Mr.
    Homan elucidated and talked about at our ICE detention centers,
    shot at. Their families are being threatened. And these are the
    people that simply want to serve our country, serve our Nation,
    and serve our community in the defense of our laws, and they
    are being demonized. And it is a sad state of affairs in our
    country that we are at this place.
        I want to thank Mr. Homan for his testimony today and the
    sheriff today for coming here today. I would yield the
    remainder of my time to Mr. Homan. You were cut off earlier,
    and you weren't able to respond to a question that the
    chairwoman gave to you. So you have 2 minutes to respond to
    that question.
        Mr. Homan. Well, sir, I was supportive of President Obama's
    policies. I supported many of his policies. But we got to
    remember, I was a career law enforcement officer. My job is to
    executive a mission within the framework provided me. So when
    the White House or the Department of Homeland Security issues a
    priority, my job isn't to question it. My job is execute it
    like I am executing the mission of this President.
        And President Obama gave me a presidential rank award, the
    highest award available to a civilian because I think I did my
    job pretty good. I think we saved many, many lives in ICE. And
    a couple of things I agreed with him on. The Priority
    Enforcement Program. It was the only game in town. We were
    locked out of jails, so the Private Enforcement Program gave us
    access to jails so at least we could get the felons. That was
    better than nothing.
        And Secretary Jeh Johnson, who I respect greatly, gave me a
    seat at the table and we talked about all the executive
    actions. He gave me a seat at the table and said here is what
    we are proposing, what are your thoughts on it. He gave me
    input. Now, I didn't win most of those arguments, and if
    Secretary Jeh Johnson was sitting here, he would tell you we
    disagreed on a lot of things. But I was grateful that the
    Administration gave me a seat at the table at least so I could
    hear things that were coming.
        So the Obama Administration wasn't all bad. He gave us
    unlimited money, unlike you are fighting today, to give us the
    detention facilities we need, give us the policies we need.
    Family detention and 100 beds. They gave us 3,000 more. So,
    yeah, President Obama, I agreed with a lot of things he did. I
    didn't agree with everything. I didn't agree with most, but I
    agreed with a lot of what he has done. So, again, but when I
    became ICE director, I came back from retirement because this
    President, President Trump, had it right across the board from
    day one. From his speech in Arizona, he was right on the money
    every step of the way.
        So I thank you for your comments because ICE agents and
    Border Patrol agents are national heroes. They are American
    patriots. They leave the safety and security of their home
    every day to defend this Nation, so thank you for those
    comments. We got to remember, these Border Patrol agents, they
    take sicknesses home to their own families every day. These
    Border Patrol agents brought toys from their own children to
    the family residential centers so these children have something
    to play with at the Border Patrol stations. These are moms and
    dads, too. They didn't hang their heart at the foot of the door
    when they put that badge on. These are American patriots and
    need to be honored rather than vilified by many members of
    Congress.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. The time of the gentleman has
    expired.
        Mr. Homan. Ma'am, everybody else went over 5 minutes.
        Ms. Jayapal. Excuse me, Mr.----
        Mr. Homan. Can I get 1 more minute. One more minute,
    please?
        Ms. Jayapal. I am sorry, Mr. Homan. The time of the
    gentleman has expired. Before I got to the next witness,
    without objection, I would like to make the following documents
    part of the record: a statement from the ACLU, a statement from
    Asian-Americans Advancing Justice, a statement from the
    American Immigration Council, a statement from Al Otro Lado, a
    statement from the Center for Victims of Torture, a statement
    from Detention Watch Network, a statement from Friends
    Committee on National Legislation, statement from the
    Government Accountability Project, from the Interfaith
    Immigration Coalition, from the National Immigration Forum,
    from the Southeast Asia Resource Action Center, from United We
    Dream, and a statement from an impacted individual, Abdikadir
    Abdulahi Mohamed.
        [The information follows:]

                          REP. JAYAPAL FOR THE RECORD

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                          REP. JAYAPAL FOR THE RECORD

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        Ms. Jayapal. And with that, I now recognize the gentlewoman
    from Texas, Ms. Garcia, for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Garcia. Thank you, Madam Chair. And first I want to
    begin by associating myself with the opening remarks of the
    chairman when he pointed out that it is simply not true that
    immigrants commit more crimes than native-born Americans. I
    agree with him. The statistics show just quite the opposite.
    Secondly, I want to thank the three witnesses today that are
    here to share their stories. I just cannot imagine being held
    in detention even 1 day, and I know that most of you have spent
    many, many more days. And I was particularly moved by the
    written statements of our friend from----
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Ms. Garcia. Madam Chair, if I can restore some of my time.
        Ms. Jayapal. Order. Order. I will advise the individuals in
    the audience that you are not allowed to speak, and you are not
    allowed to make any demonstrations. Thank you. The gentlewoman
    is recognized. Please restore her time.
        Ms. Garcia. Thank you. I was particularly moved by the
    comments and the written statement by our friend, Ms. Engochan,
    where she describes the detention center as ``a house of
    tears.'' ``A house of tears.'' Just imagine being there and
    really not having been convicted of any crime. So you're not a
    criminal, and you describe in your notes, ``What is really most
    troubling about some of these detention centers, that they are
    really more incarceration centers than detention centers.''
        I personally have visited over 10 detention facilities and
    ORR facilities, and I have seen what is going on in some of
    these facilities. And I must say that I disagree with my
    colleague from Arizona. I don't see school cafeteria-like food.
    In fact, I joked at one center and asked who has got the
    contract for the frozen burritos because it seems like that is
    the staple in almost every single one of them. Or the one from
    the Ramen noodles because that seems to be a staple.
        And for my colleagues who say that we are doing nothing,
    they seem to forget that just yesterday we passed a bill out of
    the House that not only creates an ombudsman, but also provides
    for more training and some more assistance for some of the
    officers. And then we also passed a bill that set humanitarian
    standards for medical needs and human needs that Dr. Reese
    filed that we passed before the recess. So we are doing
    something.
        But the point is, it is not enough, and for me, I think it
    is more concerning, and I want to ask the lawyers. And thank
    you to all of the lawyers that are there to represent people
    who so desperately need help. I am more concerned with not only
    the criminalization and incarceration at these facilities, but
    also the for-profit motive of many of the facilities that I
    have visited. So I wanted to ask a question specifically about
    some of our vulnerable populations, and my colleague from
    California already asked about pregnant women. I am
    particularly concerned about the shackling of pregnant women.
    Does that practice still take place, either one of the lawyers?
        Ms. Altman. Thank you so much for raising that question,
    Congressman Garcia, and for all you have done on this issue.
    You know, we don't have good information in many cases and on
    many issues out of ICE for what is happening in detention, and
    so I can't answer with certainty if right now shackling is
    occurring with pregnant women. We do know that it has been an
    issue that has persisted. Generally, if I can, though, I would
    take the opportunity to note that that is one of many issues in
    which the standards that Mr. Homan is lifting up today are
    flagrantly violated. They also happen to be standards that are
    taken from correctional standards, and so I would argue that
    the very use of them in this context is improper.
        The OIG has reported, repeatedly reported, on the fact that
    even well-documented deficiencies of their own standards that
    ICE has repeatedly committed to correct go uncorrected for
    years. And so certainly the shackling and mistreatment of
    pregnant women is one of many issues that fall within that
    category.
        Ms. Garcia. Well, I filed a bill to stop that, but I am
    also concerned because in Homestead when I visited at the
    invitation of my colleague from Florida, who will speak after
    me, as soon as the child turns 18, ICE comes to pick them up at
    the ORR denter, and they put them in handcuffs and shackling.
    Why would they do that? They have not been convicted of any
    crime. They are not prisoners. Well, at that point they are 18,
    so I guess they are adults, but it is not a crime to be an
    adult, is it?
        Ms. Altman. It is not a crime, and I would also say because
    we do actually have pending litigation on this issue, that it
    is also an unlawful practice by ICE. The law requires that in
    the case of vulnerable 18-year-olds who are coming out of
    shelter, that there be consideration of placement in an
    alternative to detention program or a continuum of care, like
    the programs that Mr. Correa has described, and ICE is
    flagrantly ignoring this instruction. We have seen a massive
    increase, and the detention is extremely disorienting for 18-
    year-olds who are largely seeking asylum in the United States
    to go from an ORR shelter into the kind of incarceration-like
    setting that you have described today.
        Ms. Garcia. Right. And, is it Ms. Schikore?
        Ms. Schikore. Schikore.
        Ms. Garcia. Schikore. I wanted to ask you. I was struck.
    You said that the program that you run is considerably more
    cost-efficient and costs less than what it takes for us to
    detain someone. I really, really want to dig in a little bit
    more on that. I think I was restored about a minute. Can I just
    finish the question? Very quickly.
        Ms. Jayapal. Very quickly.
        Ms. Garcia. What we also have found out is that at for-
    profit centers, they are getting paid a lot more per day for
    each person or detainee than the nonprofit centers. Are you
    finding that to be true also?
        Ms. Schikore. Yeah, that is definitely true that the
    private centers get a higher per diem. We deal with four county
    jails in the Chicago area, and their per diem is somewhere
    between $70 and $90 depending on which jail.
        Ms. Garcia. Okay. And Homestead----
        Ms. Jayapal. The time of the gentlewoman has expired. The
    time of the gentlewoman has expired.
        Ms. Garcia. I yield back. Thank you.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. I would like to briefly address the
    members of the audience in the hearing room today. We welcome
    you. We respect your right to be here. We also ask in turn for
    your respect as we proceed with the business of the committee
    today. It is the intention of this committee to proceed with
    this hearing without disruptions, and we expect everyone to
    observe proper decorum. And with that, I yield to the ranking
    member of the committee, Mr. Buck, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Buck. I thank the chairwoman. I want to clarify
    something. In my home county in Colorado, we have many illegal
    immigrants. And they are hardworking, they are nonviolent, and
    they are, other than being in this country illegally, they are
    law abiding, mostly because they don't want to be noticed, and
    they don't want to be deported. And I think that is true when I
    talk to my colleagues around the country. However, it is not
    racist to talk about the folks who have lost loved ones as a
    result of murders. It is not racist to talk about how we could
    do better to increase public safety in this country.
        It is an absolutely necessary conversation that we need to
    have. And murder that is committed by an illegal immigrant or a
    crime that is committed by an illegal immigrant is an
    unnecessary crime because that illegal immigrant should not be
    in this country, and we have to get that straight. It is not a
    matter of race. It is a matter of public safety.
        I recognize that we have a serious problem. We have a
    serious problem at our border. We have a serious problem by not
    recognizing how we can help those in our own hemisphere build
    their economies so they don't have the motive to come to this
    country illegally. We have a serious problem with sanctuary
    cities. We have serious problems across the border that this
    body should be dealing with. But do not call others racists and
    impugn the integrity and the motives of others because we on
    this side of the aisle want to raise a very important issue
    because of the hardship that others are suffering in this
    country.
        Ms. Schikore, I want to ask you a question. I was a
    prosecutor for 25 years at the Federal level and at the State
    level, and we sought alternatives to detention as much as we
    could for taxpayer reasons. We were trying to save money. And
    what we tried to do when we advocated in court was we tried to
    make sure we distinguished between those who were violent and
    should not be placed in community detention, and those who were
    nonviolent and not a flight risk and were more appropriate for
    community detention. Would you agree with that philosophy as it
    applies to those that could be detained by ICE?
        So asylum seekers without any violent history, without a
    flight risk, those that have ties to the community, and others
    who are violent, would you agree that that should be taken into
    account when looking at a facility such as yours?
        Ms. Schikore. Indeed that should be taken into account, and
    we do in our program. We don't take people into our program who
    have a violent history. The nuance that I would like to add is
    that what we define as criminal is problematic in this country,
    and we are aware of, for example, of people that we were trying
    to get released to our program who the only crime they had
    committed was returning to the U.S. a second time after
    experiencing additional violence in home country after being
    deported. And that was a reason they couldn't be released to
    us.
        Mr. Buck. Sure, and there are other crimes that we might
    disagree about. Identity theft is a very common crime with
    people who are in this country illegally. It is not a violent
    crime, but it is something that concerns those of us in law
    enforcement. And we might disagree about the appropriateness,
    but there are certainly on the edges, there are people on both
    sides that we would say are appropriate and not appropriate.
        Sheriff Jenkins, I want to ask you the same question.
    Having been in law enforcement, I think we would probably agree
    that to save taxpayer money--you are an elected official--to
    save taxpayer money, you want to look at non-detention
    alternatives when appropriate.
        Sheriff Jenkins. Correct. We don't really have the option
    under our agreement with ICE as far as our non-detention
    alternatives, therefore, actually other incarcerates in the
    local system. But I will tell you this. Every incarcerate in
    our jail through the 287(g) Program or the housing program has
    been convicted of a crime or has a serious criminal history,
    so. So I would argue with some of the statements made here this
    morning about those incarcerated are not criminals or convicted
    criminals.
        Mr. Buck. I understand. And, Mr. Homan, I want to give you
    some time, but I do want to ask one quick question, and I want
    to make one quick statement. I find it very offensive that
    anybody would compare any Federal employee, frankly, to the
    Gestapo or running Nazi concentration camps. That is very
    offensive. I have 15 seconds, and I yield to you.
        Mr. Homan. Thank you for saying that. I wish some in the
    Democratic leadership would say that out loud. Look, you want
    to know why there is 50,000 people in detention? Do you want to
    know why we have illegal entries in the United States? Do you
    want to know why we have these issues? Because you have failed
    to secure the border. You guys failed to work with this
    President to close the three loopholes we have asked for for 2
    years to close.
        Ms. Jayapal. The time of the gentleman has expired.
        Mr. Homan. So if you want to know why this issue exists,
    you need to look in the mirror.
        Ms. Jayapal. The time of the gentleman has expired.
        Mr. Homan. You have failed the American people by not
    securing the border----
        Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Homan.
        Mr. Homan [continuing]. And closing loopholes.
        Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Homan, please respect the chair and the
    authority of the chair. The time of the gentleman has expired.
        Mr. Homan. I have asked you politely----
        Ms. Jayapal. The gentleman from----
        Mr. Homan [continuing]. To let me go beyond my time.
        Ms. Jayapal. The gentleman from----
        Mr. Homan. And you let other people go beyond their time.
        Ms. Jayapal. The gentleman----
        Mr. Homan. But not to Tom Homan.
        Ms. Jayapal. We have----
        Mr. Homan. He don't get to go beyond his time.
        Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Homan, we have approved----
        Mr. Homan. This is a circus. This is a circus.
        Ms. Jayapal [continuing]. An agreement between the
    Republicans and the Democrats with the ranking member. We
    increased the time of one member of Congress who was
    interrupted by a protest. That is done with the approval of the
    ranking member. Please respect the chair's authority. The
    gentleman----
        Mr. Homan. I respect the chair's authority, but the chair--
    --
        Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Homan. Excuse me.
        Mr. Homan. You work for me. I am a taxpayer. I am a
    taxpayer. You work for me.
        Ms. Jayapal. The witness will suspend. The gentlewoman from
    Florida is recognized, Ms. Mucarsel-Powell.
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. Thank you, Madam Chair. We are losing
    our civility in this country, and I want to make something very
    clear to everyone. To the witnesses, thank you for coming here
    this morning. We are all Americans. We must all respect the
    rule of law. We all work very hard to keep our country and our
    communities safe. But every person that is in the United States
    deserves due process, and in the United States of America, we
    do not violate human rights.
        And the ICE detention system must be reformed. That is why
    we are having this hearing here today. There is an alarming
    lack of oversight in many of the ICE detention facilities.
    There are many deaths that could have been avoided that have
    been reported. We know that 26 people have already lost their
    lives under ICE custody in the past 2-and-a-half years, and
    many of these have been due to medical negligence. The DHS
    inspector general has found that many of these facilities pose
    health risks, and there is not proper hygiene, proper
    oversight. Overall, there is a lack of accountability.
        In my district in South Florida, we have an ICE detention
    facility, the Krome Processing Center. And my office has
    received multiple complaints that Krome does not offer adequate
    medical or mental healthcare. We have heard that immigrants are
    often placed in isolation, solitary confinement, a concern that
    the DHS inspector general has raised at other facilities like
    Krome. We have heard that officers are sometimes slow to
    respond to concerns raised by detainees, and they have fatal
    consequences.
        We heard of a story of the death of Jose Leonardo Lemus
    Rajo. Jose was a severe alcoholic when he was admitted to Krome
    in 2016. Despite notifying the center of his condition, Jose
    did not receive the medical attention. His condition quickly
    deteriorated because of his withdrawals. He experienced
    tremors. He was foaming at the mouth and suffered from
    hallucinations. He died days after he was admitted to this
    facility. Doctors reviewing Jose's case indicated that his
    death was entirely preventable had he received the right
    treatment. Instead, staff treated Jose with sporadic and
    inadequate doses of medication that ultimately causes his
    death.
        Instances like the death of Jose cannot be allowed to occur
    in our immigration system again. We are in the United States of
    America. We do not violate human rights. We protect every
    individual's right to due process. Everyone. We must ensure
    that adequate oversight is conducted over ICE, and we must
    never forget that the safety and the wellbeing of all
    individuals in this country come first.
        And I see the pictures, and I want to tell you I am very,
    very sorry for your loss, and criminals that commit crimes need
    to pay the consequences. I agree with you. We just yesterday
    had a hearing on banning assault weapons. And so this doesn't
    justify protecting people that have taken the lives of your
    family members, and for that I am truly, truly sorry. We are
    talking accountability and oversight of a Federal agency that
    is violating human rights for people that have not committed
    those crimes.
        So my question is to Mr. Davydov. The Office of Refugee
    Resettlement operates the Homestead Detention Facility in my
    district, and Homestead is a facility designed for children,
    and it houses children of all ages, from 13 to 17. And when
    they turn 18, like my colleague mentioned, they are taken on
    their birthday in shackles to adult detention facilities. Can
    you just tell me a little bit about what you experienced at the
    Krome Detention Facility in my district?
        Mr. Davydov. Yes. I stayed in the Krome facility. I was
    moved there after, like, a 24 hour process. I was held in this
    dormitory with, like, 100 bunk beds. At the time I showed up,
    there was no bed for me. They offered me this, like, I don't
    know, foldable bed. But because I was admitted in the medical
    facility after that, by the time I returned, they found me a
    place. So it was super loud. It was very cold at night. It has
    only, like, four showers also working, the shower. So
    basically, and it was----
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. Thank you. I am sorry. My time is up.
    Would you say that it would be appropriate for----
        Ms. Jayapal. The time of the gentlelady has----
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell [continuing]. A child to be in that
    facility?
        Ms. Jayapal. The time of the gentlewoman has expired. With
    that, I would like to----
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. If you could just answer----
        Ms. Jayapal. I would like to recognize the gentleman from
    Colorado.
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. Thank you.
        Mr. Neguse. Madam Chair, I want to thank you for hosting
    this important hearing, and also for your leadership with
    respect to the Dignity in Detention Act that you have
    introduced that I am proud to be a co-sponsor of. And we
    appreciate your leadership so much in this Congress on these
    issues for so long.
        I hadn't planned on saying this, but I want to associate
    myself with the remarks of the distinguished gentlelady from
    Florida, and that is I have served on this committee now for 10
    months. I am new to Congress. And we have had a number of
    witness panels where the majority and the minority select
    witnesses who have much to say and make their case in a
    compelling way to the members here. And that is certainly the
    case today with many of the folks who are assembled here.
        But I do think the bluster and the attacks in opening
    statements by one witness in particular on other members of
    this body whom are not here to defend themselves, I think is
    inappropriate. I don't think it is conducive to constructive
    work on these policy items. And I respect, you know, my
    colleagues on the other side of the aisle very much. I
    understand that we have differing political views on these
    issues, but that fundamentally we all are trying to do right by
    our constituents.
        And so I would just ask as we think about the witnesses
    that we call, because, you know, I just for the record will
    submit this. This is an article dated July 15th, 2019, ``Ex-ICE
    Director Says That He Considered Beating Latino Congressman
    During Hearing,'' and this is from Newsweek. I will submit it
    to the record with unanimous consent.
        Ms. Jayapal. Without objection.
        [The information follows:]

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        Mr. Neguse. I would just say that to me, it is relevant
    that we have witnesses before us from both sides of the aisle
    who come to these issues in good faith to work with members of
    this body rather than insulting them, and I am certainly going
    to take that approach. I would hope the minority would do the
    same.
        I want to thank witnesses for sharing your stories, those
    of you who have been detained. As the son of immigrants, I want
    to say to you that you are just as American as anyone else here
    in this room, and we appreciate you speaking truth to power and
    sharing your stories today. We have heard already from a number
    of my colleagues about the reality of the growth in immigration
    detention at an alarming rate since 2017 after two executive
    orders were issued by the President, which prioritized all
    undocumented immigrants for detention and removal.
        The average daily population of people in ICE custody this
    month is over 54,000, a 54 percent increase from 2016. Even
    more troubling, nearly 75 percent of these immigrants are
    detained by ICE in for-profit facilities. These facilities, in
    my view, put profits for shareholders above the safety and the
    care of those in detention, and the results in many cases have
    been disastrous. And I will just give you one example.
        In 2017, Kamyar Samimi, a legal permanent resident of the
    United States, died while in custody of the Aurora Detention
    Facility in Colorado. To date, over 30 immigrants, including
    seven children, have died in ICE custody under the current
    Administration. In my home State of Colorado, Geo Group
    operates the Denver Contract Detention Facility in Aurora for
    ICE that holds close to 1,500 people. In 2018, the American
    Immigration Council and the American Immigration Lawyers
    Association filed a complaint about inadequate medical care in
    Aurora. That was followed by a supplemental complaint that was
    filed just a few months ago in June of this year. And most
    recently, the ACLU released a report just last week outlining
    the horrendous conditions at the Aurora facility.
        I would ask unanimous consent, Madam Chair, to enter both
    the American Immigration Council and the ACLU report into the
    record.
        Ms. Jayapal. Without objection.
        [The information follows:]

                           REP. NEGUSE FOR THE RECORD

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        Mr. Neguse. You know, I know that my time is limited, and
    so I will just say this. I do think facts matter, and there are
    a variety of reasons that I believe justify ending for-profit
    detention in the United States of America, the obvious moral
    reasons that I think compel us as a body to take that step. But
    we also are not entitled to our own set of facts. And, Mr.
    Homan, in your written testimony, you noted, in your view, that
    ``Using outside contractors that run facilities like these as
    their core business function not only save millions in taxpayer
    funds, but it increases the quality of care for those being
    detained.''
        With respect to the financial piece of this, I have here
    the Fiscal Year 2018 ICE report from the Department of Homeland
    Security that details the total direct costs: $149.58 for
    contract detention facilities per bed, and $98.27 for
    intergovernmental service agreement facilities, IGSA
    facilities. I don't think there is any question that we are
    wasting millions of taxpayer dollars, in my view, by having
    these for-profit facilities.
        Ms. Jayapal. The time of the gentleman has expired.
        Mr. Neguse. And with that, I yield back the balance of my
    time.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. The time of the gentleman has
    expired.
        Mr. Biggs. May I make a parliamentary inquiry?
        Ms. Jayapal. State your parliamentary inquiry.
        Mr. Biggs. I am not sure if it is technically
    parliamentary, but it is the only way I figure I can ask you a
    question, and you can rule me as not parliamentary if you want.
    I am requesting that we allow the minority to have a hearing on
    this very important topic, and I will follow that up with a
    letter making that request. But I am----
        Ms. Jayapal. We will take that under consideration.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. The gentleman has yielded back. I
    now recognize the gentlelady from Texas, Sheila Jackson Lee,
    for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me, first of all, thank the chairwoman
    twice and ranking member for this hearing. And I must thank my
    good friend from Colorado, Mr. Neguse, for his initial
    courtesies to yield to me. I had to step out of the room at the
    time that he would have done so, and hopefully clarify the
    rules that when you yield to an individual, you do not lose
    your time. I wanted to make sure I put that on the record.
        Let me indicate that I have the deepest amount of sympathy
    for anyone that loses a loved one. And having been on the
    Homeland Security Committee dealing with these issues for 20
    years plus, I have seen a lot of tragedy, and I have recognized
    the pain of families, recognized the pain and the loss of
    officers, and also have worked hard to provide the appropriate
    equipment necessary for our work to be done. With that in mind,
    I believe that we will not succeed in this if we talk at each
    other instead of to each other. This is a Nation of immigrants
    and a Nation of laws, and all people must be protected.
        The three witnesses that we heard from--if I might call
    them by their first names, Selene, and Denis, and Blanche--are
    not criminals, have no intent to kill or maim anyone. What we
    are speaking about today is the question of the dignity of
    America, the basic sense of human rights, and the Bill of
    Rights that adhere to anyone on our soil to be treated
    decently. When the gentleman who said he was awarded by
    President Obama and worked with our good friend, Mr. Jeh
    Johnson, all secretaries of Homeland Security, have known all
    of the leadership I have known, it makes a difference when the
    leadership sets the tone that these people are human beings.
        So this is not ICE because I have seen ICE and I have
    worked with ICE. But when you begin to get the kind of toxic
    leadership, no one wins, families who are trying to have
    justice or innocent persons who simply have come to this Nation
    because they cannot live anywhere else. And in this Nation, we
    have always been a place. The Statue of Liberty did not
    collapse when those towers were hit. It stood, and it still
    stands.
        I reject and resent the actions that have been dictated by
    the toxicity at the top, that have turned decent Americans who
    work every day, who I have worked with, into the pressure,
    cannot imagine the burden to act like they are presiding over
    terrorists and ne'er-do-wells. So let's get it straight that we
    are all in the same boat. We all care about the same things.
        So let me just, as I quickly ask this question, might I
    please, let me ask the question to you, Heidi, and you see my
    time, on sexual abuse. We understand the numbers between 2010
    and 2017, 1,224 complaints. You answered that question. To
    Jorge, can you answer the question about the importance of the
    asylum process being fair and the importance of immigration
    judges working my constituent that people are pleading, decent
    human being, picked up, Muslim, is now trying to get a stay of
    his removal. And he is being held by ICE. We are negotiating
    that he is where he is with the immigration courts. Everyone
    feels the pressure of toxicity so that asylum becomes useless.
    Would you answer that question?
        I want to put on the record that I am against the NPP. I
    want to put on the record as well my amendment and legislation
    regarding Freedom of Information Act applying to all centers,
    profit and nonprofit. I would appreciate a comment on that, and
    that is before what we are going to do about these centers. But
    if the two of you would answer, I would appreciate it, and I
    will have something to put in the record in a moment. If you
    could quickly answer those questions, please.
        Ms. Altman. Thank you, Congresswoman. I will answer
    quickly. You asked about the prevalence of sexual abuse in
    immigration custody, which is unfortunately quite prevalent and
    largely met with impunity. And I think that this goes to the
    overarching point that you have made, which is that there is a
    toxicity. When asylum seekers, as has happened frequently
    throughout the hearing today, are referred to as criminals,
    when there is a dehumanization of those who are in custody that
    trickles down to the officers who are coming to work every day
    and showing up. One example that I will just end with is that
    you heard reference today to the nooses hanging in the jails in
    Adelanto. There was a suicide just a year earlier, and we were
    told that the guards laughed.
        Ms. Jayapal. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Can he answer the question, the other
    gentleman that I asked about the asylum?
        Ms. Jayapal. We have unfortunately been having situations
    where people have been going too far over.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. No problem.
        Ms. Jayapal. So I need to stick to the rules.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. No problem. Let me put into the record, if
    I might ask unanimous consent, an article by Dylan Petroleus, I
    believe, dated August dated August 5th. And I thank the
    gentlelady, and I would also join the gentlelady in asking
    witnesses to be here with the spirit of information and not
    with the spirit of being----
        Ms. Jayapal. Without objection.
        [The information follows:]

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        Ms. Jackson Lee [continuing]. Because of who they are and
    their race. I yield back.
        Ms. Jayapal. The gentlewoman has yielded. I now recognize
    the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Collins, for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Collins. Thank you, Madam Chair, I appreciate that. You
    know, the interesting thing about this hearing is, one, I guess
    I am glad we are having it. It is as I have said before, the
    reason that you have hearings is to lead to answers. Well, we
    are here again having a hearing, but no answers. We have been
    here for 9 months with no answers. What we have heard a lot of
    is how bad our agents are, how bad those in law enforcement
    are, how bad conditions are.
        We put forward a bill just a few months that we talked
    about. I mean, it is not into law. Oh, that is right because it
    can't pass the Senate. It would supposedly help conditions, but
    it dealt more with environmental issues and other things. And
    we don't deal with the very issue at the border of why people
    are coming across, and how this is happening, and why this is
    happening, and the three areas of things that we need to be
    talking about: Flores, asylum, and Trafficking in Victims
    Protection Act. But we don't want to do that because that is
    too simple and it doesn't play politically.
        I am sorry for the DACA recipients. We could have fixed
    DACA, by the way. I am sorry that, you know, some people didn't
    know that you couldn't travel, and I understand that. And it
    may not have been our bill, but there was a bill, and we
    discussed a bill passed out of here that many of us on the
    Republican side would love to have fixed and the President
    would have. And the majority leader of this House actually got
    on the floor and said last year this could have happened, and
    there was a bill that was within one or two signatures away of
    being taken off the desk and voted on.
        And instead of taking that bill which would have got 40 or
    50 or maybe even 60 Republicans to pass this year, went to the
    Senate, passed, and the President sign it so there is no more
    problem here, we chose to pass a partisan DACA bill, which
    can't pass, which means that, frankly, it seems the majority is
    only interested in using DACA as a political issue and not a
    solution. If you don't believe it, just look at the results.
    Don't look at the rhetoric. Look at the results, not the
    rhetoric. It is one thing to tell you something. It is another
    thing to promise you something. It is another thing to bring
    people to come here and testify to the conditions, and I
    appreciate that and sympathetic to that. But don't look at the
    rhetoric. Look at the results.
        I would love to see this committee actually propose
    results. I said this a week or two ago when we were having
    this, again, discussion on immigration and talking about how
    dehumanizing it is. It is dehumanizing to continue to come here
    and talk about it and not put a bill before this committee. I
    got you. Too dehumanizing. So you can come and be witnesses,
    the majority witness or the minority, but it is dehumanizing to
    come here and not know that this committee could actually pass
    bills and choose not to.
        With that, Mr. Homan, again, it has been one of those
    days----
        Mr. Homan. I appreciate it. First of all, I think everybody
    needs to be reminded, entering this country illegally is a
    crime. There is no prerequisite you got to commit yet another
    crime to enforce the law. That is the law you enacted. The
    young lady over here mentioned 26 deaths in ICE custody. Wrong.
    That number is nine, and one is too many, but out of the
    majority of those nine deaths, which is the lowest of any
    Federal and State facility, most of them died within days of
    detention. It wasn't ICE's fault. They came into ICE's custody
    in bad condition. So and the year before that, the majority of
    them were heart attacks. Heart attacks happen across this
    country every day. I don't know how you prevent that. So nine,
    not 26.
        And finally, I will say this, sir. Your comment about me
    wanting to assault a lawmaker. Let me explain myself to that.
    Probably not the right thing to say, but I was angry, and let
    me tell you why I was angry. Because you or no one in this room
    have seen what I have seen in my 34 years. You didn't stand in
    the back of tractor trailers finding 19 dead aliens that
    suffocated to death because the smuggler didn't care, including
    a 5-year-old boy. What do you think his last 30 minutes were
    like?
        I was there. I seen it. I seen it. I saw it. And I had a 5-
    year-old boy at the time, and it changed me for the rest of my
    life. I have seen people who couldn't pay their smugglers and
    got stabbed in the face 22 times. Thirty-one percent of migrant
    women are being raped crossing this border. Children are dying.
    Cartels are getting rich. Why am I angry? Because you haven't
    done anything to fix it. Nothing.
        We have been up here for 2 years trying to close the three
    loopholes that Congress says needs to be closed, and you
    haven't taken one action. But if there is a policy or
    initiative that is going to cause an illegal alien being
    arrested or be detained or be removed, we are going to have a
    hearing within days. Within days. But I am still waiting on a
    hearing on sanctuary cities because these people's lives have
    been changed forever. Where is the hearing on sanctuary cities?
    Where is the hearing on the asylum abuse? Where is the hearing
    on the TVPRA so we treat children from Central America better?
        That is why I am angry, sir. I notice you are not paying
    attention, but that is why I am angry because you have not seen
    what I have seen, and it has affected me in my life. I have
    spent my career trying to save lives, and when I see what is
    going on the southern border right now and you are ignoring it
    for political reasons. Why not have a hearing on that? Why not
    fix the problem and close the loopholes? Why not? There is no
    downside in securing our border. There is no downside in
    illegal immigration being decreased. There is no downside on
    less drugs coming in this country. Opioids. ICE has seen enough
    opioids to kill every man, women, and child 3 times. There is
    no downside in taking money out of cartels' hands. None.
        Mr. Collins. I yield back.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. And with that, we do conclude
    today's hearing. I would like to say that the truth is our
    country is far too reliant on the incarceration of immigrants.
    The beneficiaries are for-profit prison companies. But we do
    have sensible, humane, cost-effective solutions that would be
    provided under my bill, the Dignity for Detained Immigrants
    Act. And I do think it is unfortunate, and I will just----
        Mr. Collins. Will the gentlelady yield?
        Ms. Jayapal. But I do think that it is unfortunate----
        Mr. Collins. Point of order. Is the committee over or is it
    a time for another 5-minute round?
        Ms. Jayapal. No, it is not a time for another 5-minute
    round.
        Mr. Collins. Then it is time to adjourn the committee,
    Madam Chair.
        Ms. Jayapal. I just said to the ranking member of the
    subcommittee that I was going to make one brief statement.
        Mr. Collins. But as the ranking member of the committee, I
    am calling a point of order and saying it is time to end this
    committee.
        Ms. Jayapal. Okay. Well, I would like to say that I hope
    that witnesses called by the minority in the future respect the
    authority of the committee.
        Mr. Collins. I wish the committee chair right now would
    recognize the fact that she is supposed to be calling this
    committee----
        Ms. Jayapal. I would once again like to----
        Mr. Collins. There is not 5 minutes extra.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Collins. I would once again
    like to thank the panel of witnesses, and particularly those
    who traveled far away to be with us today.
        Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days
    to submit additional questions for the witness or additional
    materials for the record.
        Without objection, the hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:53 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]

                                    APPENDIX

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