    [House Hearing, 116 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                           VENEZUELA AT A CROSSROADS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                               FEBRUARY 13, 2019

                                   __________

                                Serial No. 116-4

                                   __________

            Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

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        Available:Ahttp://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://
                                docs.house.gov,
                           or http://www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
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                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                       ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York, Chairman

    BRAD SHERMAN, California             MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking
    GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York               Member
    ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey		     CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
    GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia	     STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
    THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida	     JOE WILSON, South Carolina
    KAREN BASS, California		     SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
    WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts	     TED S. YOHO, Florida
    DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island	     ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
    AMI BERA, California	             LEE ZELDIN, New York
    JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas		     JIM SENSENBRENNER, Wisconsin
    DINA TITUS, Nevada		     ANN WAGNER, Missouri
    ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York	     BRIAN MAST, Florida
    TED LIEU, California		     FRANCIS ROONEY, Florida
    SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania	     BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
    DEAN PHILLPS, Minnesota		     JOHN CURTIS, Utah
    ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota		     KEN BUCK, Colorado
    COLIN ALLRED, Texas    		     RON WRIGHT, Texas
    ANDY LEVIN, Michigan		     GUY RESCHENTHALER, Pennsylvania
    ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia	     TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
    CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania	     GREG PENCE, Indiana
    TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey	     STEVE WATKINS, Kansas
    DAVID TRONE, Maryland		     MIKE GUEST, Mississippi
    JIM COSTA, California
    JUAN VARGAS, California
    VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas

                   Jason Steinbaum, Democratic Staff Director

                   Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                   WITNESSES

    Abrams, Hon. Elliott, U.S. Special Representative for Venezuela,
      U.S. Department of State.......................................    13
    Oudkirk, Sandra, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Energy
      Resources, U.S. Department of State............................    20
    Olive, Steve, Acting Assistant Administrator, Bureau of Latin
      America and the Caribbean, U.S. Agency for International
      Development....................................................    25

                                    APPENDIX

    Hearing Notice...................................................    68
    Hearing Minutes..................................................    69
    Hearing Attendance...............................................    70

                 ADDITIONAL MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

    Amensty International letter submitted by Chairman Engel.........    71
    Article from The Wall Street Journal submitted by Representative
      Smith..........................................................    78

               QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD WITH RESPONSES

    Chairman Eliot L. Engel..........................................    83
    Representative Chris Smith.......................................    85
    Representative David Cicilline...................................    86
    Representative James Sensenbrenner...............................    89
    Representative Michael Guest.....................................    90

                           VENEZUELA AT A CROSSROADS

                          Wednesday, February 13, 2019

                              House of Representatives,
                          Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                         Washington, DC

        The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:09 a.m., in
    Room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Eliot Engel
    (chairman of the committee) presiding.
        Chairman Engel [presiding]. The committee will come to
    order.
        As the situation in Venezuela continues to unfold, it is
    important that the Foreign Affairs Committee hear from
    policymakers in the Trump administration on the latest
    developments and how the United States will continue to engage
    on this issue. So, I am glad to welcome our panel, whom I will
    introduce prior to their statements.
        And let me also welcome all our members, the public, and
    the press, and we are glad to have our friends from C-SPAN here
    this morning to cover our hearing.
        Before we start, without objection, all members may have 5
    days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials
    for the record, subject to the length limitation in the rules.
        Chairman Engel. Let me start by saying that the
    humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is simply heartbreaking.
    Ninety percent of Venezuelans are living in poverty, more than
    1 in 10 children suffer from malnutrition, and nearly 10
    percent of the country's population of 31 million has fled
    overseas. What makes it even more heartbreaking is that this
    crisis is entirely manmade. Venezuela should be one of the
    wealthiest and most prosperous countries in the hemisphere; it
    once was. But the corruption, incompetence, and mismanagement
    of Nicolas Maduro, and Hugo Chavez before him, have driven that
    country off of the edge of a cliff. The blame lies squarely
    with the crooked officials who have repressed the Venezuelan
    people for years, doing everything from throwing political
    opponents in jail to rigging elections, to gunning down
    protesters in the street.
        Now some consider it a good sound bite to say that
    Venezuela represents the failure of socialism, but we should be
    honest that Venezuela is not a socialist country. It is a
    kleptocracy. It is a cruel and oppressive regime, pocketing
    every dollar it can, even if it means that the country's people
    are literally starving to death.
        Nowhere is Nicolas Maduro's disregard for his fellow
    Venezuelans clearer than his decision to block humanitarian aid
    from entering the country last week at the Colombia-Venezuela
    border. This was a disgrace, and we need to keep looking for
    ways to get this assistance to those who need it without
    provoking a confrontation that could lead to the loss of life.
    The Venezuelan people deserve better. They deserve the future
    they choose for themselves and their country.
        So, our question is, how do we help them attain that
    future? How do we stand with the people of Venezuela as they
    seek a peaceful democratic transition?
        First, governments around the world, and especially here in
    our neighborhood, need to support the Venezuelan National
    Assembly and Juan Guaido they work toward free and
    fair elections, elections that must be monitored by credible
    international observers, including the OAS, the Organization of
    American States. The EU-Latin America contact group can play a
    potentially crucial role in laying the groundwork for these
    elections in an area where our own administration can provide
    financial and political support.
        What about U.S. policy more broadly? I will credit the
    administration. In the last few weeks, we have seen good
    multilateral engagement to grapple with this crisis. I am glad
    the White House rejects Nicolas Maduro. I think we should
    reject authoritarians, regardless of the ideology, and that
    would include despots like Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un.
        But I do worry about the President's saber rattling, his
    hints that the U.S. military intervention remains an option. I
    want to make clear to our witnesses, and to everyone else
    watching, U.S. military intervention is not an option. Congress
    decides when, where, and how the U.S. military is used around
    the world, and Congress would not support military intervention
    in Venezuela.
        Venezuela's neighbors feel the same way. Just last week,
    Colombia's Deputy Foreign Minister said that, and I quote him,
    ``In no way would the Colombian government permit or agree with
    any type of military intervention,'' unquote, in Venezuela.
        With respect to new sanctions on the PDVSA, I appreciate
    the need to squeeze Maduro, but the White House must think
    through the potential repercussions that these sanctions could
    have on the Venezuelan people if Maduro does not leave office
    in the coming weeks. We need to continually evaluate their
    effectiveness.
        My biggest concern about the administration's policy is
    what appears to be missing. What are we going to do about the
    more than 3 million Venezuelans who have already left the
    country? This has become Latin America's biggest migration
    crisis in recent history, and I fear the United States may make
    things worse.
        For starters, we should be taking in more Venezuelan
    refugees, but our admission numbers are at their lowest in
    recent history. Worse, the immigration policies of the White
    House have resulted in more Venezuelans being deported back to
    Venezuela, and that is like sending people back into a burning
    building.
        The President could fix that with the stroke of a pen. He
    could grant temporary protected status, or TPS, to Venezuelans
    living in the United States. I hope he does so. And I have also
    cosponsored a bill written by Representative Soto that would
    take this step.
        There is more we can do legislatively. Mr. McCaul and I
    have spent the last 2 weeks trying to draft a bipartisan
    resolution on this matter. We were about 95 percent of the way
    there, but hit a roadblock, similar to the Senate, on how to
    deal with questions about the use of force in Venezuela. This
    is a policy difference, and it is a debate worth having,
    including during this hearing.
        We also have pending a few substantive bills introduced by
    Representatives Mucarsel-Powell, Shalala, and Wasserman
    Schultz, that would help alleviate the humanitarian crisis and
    dial up pressure on Maduro. I hope we are able to move them
    forward during our next markup.
        For now, I am eager to hear from our witnesses to get a
    fuller picture of the administration's approach to this
    volatile situation. But, first, let me yield to my friend, our
    ranking minority member, Mr. Michael McCaul of Texas, for an
    opening comments he may have.
        Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        When Nicolas Maduro was handpicked by Hugo Chavez in 2013,
    it was clear that he would follow in his socialist dictatorship
    footsteps. Since that time, Maduro's policies, rampant
    corruption, and violent crackdowns on peaceful political
    dissent have turned Venezuela into a failed State.
    Hyperinflation has skyrocketed, food and medicine are scarce,
    and, according to the United Nations, up to 3 million have fled
    the country since 2014.
        Last week, a fuel tanker and two shipping containers were
    placed on a bridge to block the delivery of desperately needed
    humanitarian aid, as seen on the screen. This act highlights
    how evil the Maduro regime really is.
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The current crisis highlights the horrifying impact of
    socialism. Those who continue to preach or show sympathy do not
    understand its history and the abject suffering it has caused.
    Let us be clear, the suffering of the Venezuelan people at the
    hands of the Maduro regime is not caused only by its ideology.
    The Maduro regime is full of criminals that oversee a mafia
    State backed by U.S. adversaries like, Russia, China, and Iran,
    and is linked to drug trafficking and other illicit activities.
        Today, the people of Venezuela have had enough, and over
    the last month they have started to take back their country
    that they love. Inspired by Juan Guaido, leader of the National
    Assembly and Interim President, millions of protesters have
    rallied in the streets across the country and stood up to the
    Maduro dictatorship. Bolstered by the leadership of the United
    States, many nations around the world, including most Latin
    American and European countries, are standing with them, as the
    TV monitor shows.
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        I commend the President for recognizing Juan Guaido as the
    legitimate Interim President, for supporting his efforts to
    call for free and fair elections, and for imposing sanctions
    that hold the regime responsible for their criminal actions.
        This week, I will be introducing a resolution. I continue
    to work with the chairman in a bipartisan manner to condemn the
    criminal actions of Nicolas Maduro and countries like Cuba,
    Russia, China, Iran, and Syria for supporting his regime. It
    also clearly recognizes Juan Guaido Interim President
    and urges the international community to support the
    humanitarian and economic assistance for Venezuela.
        The Venezuelan people need to know that America is on their
    side, but it should also be known that we do not aim to choose
    their next leader. We simply want the conditions that would
    allow the people to choose for themselves. Our role must be a
    supportive one, but one that stands for universal principles of
    freedom and democracy. And today's hearing will allow us to
    discuss how we can play that role to the best of our ability.
        In January, I was pleased that the President and Secretary
    Pompeo called on Eliot Abrams to serve as Special Envoy for
    Venezuela. As a seasoned diplomat who has served in numerous
    foreign policy and national security positions, I believe that
    Mr. Abrams is the right man for the job. And I look forward to
    hearing his testimony, as well as the testimony of the other
    experts here today.
        I believe this is an issue that both parties can come
    together on and do what is best for the people of Venezuela to
    support this noble cause.
        With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you very much.
        It is now my pleasure to introduce our witnesses.
        Mr. Elliott Abrams is the U.S. Special Representative for
    Venezuela at the U.S. Department of State. He is currently on
    leave at the Council on Foreign Relations, where he serves as a
    senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies in Washington, DC. Mr.
    Abrams served as Assistant Secretary of State in the Reagan
    Administration and as the Senior Director of the National
    Security Council for Near East and North Africa Affairs under
    the George W. Bush Administration. I love his first name, even
    though he spells it incorrectly.
        [Laughter.]
        And I look forward to hearing what he has to say today.
        Ms. Sandra Oudkirk is the Deputy Assistant Secretary for
    Energy Diplomacy. Ms. Oudkirk is a career member of the Senior
    Foreign Service. From 2017 to 2018, she served as the Acting
    Deputy Assistant Secretary for Threat Finance and Sanctions in
    the Bureau of Economics and Business Affairs. Her previous
    overseas assignments include consular assignments in Taipei, at
    the U.S. Embassy in Dublin, Deputy Principal Officer in
    Istanbul, and Narcotics Affairs Section Chief in Jamaica.
        Mr. Steve Olive is Acting Assistant Administrator for
    USAID's Latin America and Caribbean Bureau. Mr. Olive served as
    the Acting Director of the Foreign Service Center in the Office
    of Human Capital and Talent Management from 2017 to 2018.
    Previously, he served as Deputy Mission Director for Somalia,
    Deputy Mission Director for Haiti, as well as numerous other
    roles across nearly two decades at USAID.
        We are grateful for your service and your time this
    morning.
        All witnesses' testimony will be included in the record of
    this hearing.
        And now, I would like to recognize our witnesses for 5
    minutes each. We will start with Mr. Abrams.

     STATEMENT OF ELLIOTT ABRAMS, U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR
                  VENEZUELA, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

        Mr. Abrams. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman Engel, Ranking
    Member McCaul, members of the committee, thank you for the
    opportunity to testify on our efforts to restore democracy in
    Venezuela.
        [Audience members interrupt hearing.]
        Chairman Engel. OK. The Chair will remind all persons in
    the audience that any manifestation of approval or disapproval
    of proceedings is in violation of the rules of the House and
    its committees.
        Mr. Abrams----
        Mr. Abrams. Thank you.
        Chairman Engel [continuing]. I apologize. Please continue.
        Mr. Abrams. Venezuela is at a crossroads. Over the past
    month, we have witnessed a massive outpouring of hope and
    courage and tenacity by the Venezuelan people. We saw it again
    yesterday, as they have taken to the streets to protest that
    has brought them nothing but poverty and misery and repression.
        They have placed their hopes in a young, dynamic, and
    legitimate leader, Juan Guaido, to lead them through a
    transition to democracy. And we join the Venezuelan people in
    this effort.
        Under the Maduro regime, the situation inside Venezuela
    will only get worse. Venezuela has become the most violent
    country in the world. Hyperinflation is spiraling out of
    control and will reach a million percent or more. There is
    widespread hunger. Communicable diseases that are easily
    preventable are resurging once again.
        [Audience members interrupt hearing.]
        Chairman Engel. The Chair will remind all persons in the
    audience, if we have to clear the hearing of spectators, we
    will do it.
        [Audience members interrupt hearing.]
        OK. I want to again say the Chair will remind everyone that
    any manifestation of approval or disapproval of proceedings is
    in violation of the rules of the House and its committees. If
    this continues, we will have to just clear out the hearing room
    of people who are here. It is unfortunate, but, apparently,
    there are some people who only believe they are the only ones
    who should be heard. The last time I looked, we were a
    democracy and everyone has the right to be heard.
        So, please continue, Mr. Abrams.
        Mr. Abrams. And oil production has fallen from 3 million
    barrels a day to about a million. It will probably go down to
    about 500,000 by the end of the year.
        More than 3.5 million Venezuelans, as you have said, Mr.
    Chairman and Mr. McCaul, have been forced to flee their country
    and spread throughout the region in search of food and medicine
    and work and protection.
        The light in all this darkness is Venezuela's National
    Assembly, the last democratic institution in Venezuela. Interim
    President Juan Guaido has provided new hope to those who want
    to return to a free and democratic Venezuela. Through his
    efforts, we look forward to a democratic and multiparty
    transition, an economic recovery that benefits all, and
    competitive, free, and fair Presidential elections, truly
    representative of the will of the people.
        We have always recognized that the solution to Venezuela's
    political and economic crisis must be led and achieved by the
    Venezuelan people. The U.S. Government role is to support that
    effort.
        And as we meet today, Mr. Chairman, the State Department
    and its interagency partners are hard at work responding to
    Interim President Guaido's call for international humanitarian
    assistance. We invite international partners to join us in
    helping to fill warehouses and assistance centers with basic
    supplies the Venezuelan people so desperately need. We also
    continue our implementation of over $140 million in existing
    programming to address the regional humanitarian crisis.
        As you have said, Maduro and his cronies are conspiring to
    prevent this lifesaving assistance from reaching the Venezuelan
    people. But, of course, those at the top of the regime are
    well-fed. They impose misery on the Venezuelan people, but they
    do not share it.
        The United States has effectively levied individual and
    sectoral sanctions on the Maduro regime. We have exponentially
    increased the cost of doing business for the regime in the gold
    sector, the financial sector, now in the oil sector, the
    combination of which has created enormous pressure on Maduro
    and his band of thieves. We have frozen bank accounts. We have
    revoked visas of those who benefit from their corruption and
    complicity.
        And this is not a U.S. effort alone. It is now more than 50
    democracies in this hemisphere and around the world. The
    Venezuelan desire for freedom has galvanized the global effort
    on behalf of Interim President Guaido.
        As a result of this growing pressure, there is a storm
    brewing inside the Maduro regime that will eventually bring it
    to an end. While it is impossible to predict the moment this
    will happen, we believe the current political and economic
    environment is unsustainable and that he will not be able to
    weather it much longer.
        For those remaining supporters of the regime, we have one
    simple message: your time is up. A new, free, and prosperous
    Venezuela will rise, and your fellow citizens will remember who
    stood by them in their struggle.
        This includes especially the armed forces who will be
    needed in the future to build a secure Venezuela where law and
    order defeat criminality and violence. Now is the time for the
    armed forces to support the Venezuelan people and reclaim their
    own legitimacy.
        Over the next weeks and months, we will continue our
    pressure against Maduro and his inner circle. Last week, I
    announced visa restrictions and revocations on members of the
    illegitimate Constituent Assembly. Today, we can add we have
    imposed visa restrictions and revoked visas on members of the
    TSJ, the illegitimate supreme court.
        But we will also provide off-ramps to those who will do
    what is right for the Venezuelan people. We will support
    Venezuela's Interim President, the National Assembly, the new
    government, and its aspirations to create a new Venezuela. We
    will continue pressing for humanitarian assistance delivery
    with the help of regional partners and the international
    community.
        And we are hopeful and confident that the Venezuelan people
    will succeed in their quest for liberty. And when they do
    achieve this monumental goal, it will show despots and
    dictators not only in our hemisphere, but in the rest of the
    world that the will of the people for freedom will prevail over
    those who try to suppress it.
        Mr. Chairman, thank you for inviting me here today, and
    thank you for the continuing interest and support that this
    committee has shown, bipartisan interest, in supporting the
    struggle for freedom in Venezuela.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Abrams follows:]

        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        [Audience members interrupt hearing.]
        Chairman Engel. The Chair will remind all persons in the
    audience that any manifestations of approval or disapproval of
    proceedings is in violation of the rules of the House and
    committees.
        OK. Ms. Oudkirk.

    STATEMENT OF SANDRA OUDKIRK, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU
             OF ENERGY RESOURCES, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

        Ms. Oudkirk. Chairman Engel, Ranking Member McCaul----
        Chairman Engel. Can you push the microphone a little
    closer? Good.
        Ms. Oudkirk. Chairman Engel, Ranking Member McCaul, and
    members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to
    testify today.
        On January 28th, the United States designated Petroleos de
    Venezuela, S.A., PDVSA, under Executive Order 13850. This
    action extends to entities that are majority-owned by PDVSA.
    These new sanctions are intended to place pressure on the
    illegitimate former Maduro regime, minimize its receipt of
    revenue from the United States, and safeguard the U.S.
    financial system. The designation of PDVSA will also preserve
    Venezuela's national assets for the Venezuelan people.
        The United States is holding accountable those responsible
    for Venezuela's tragic decline. As Special Representative
    Abrams noted, under the former Maduro regime, Venezuelan oil
    production steadily declined due to mismanagement, corruption,
    and a lack of investment.
        PDVSA has long been associated with allegations of
    corruption and a variety of schemes designed to embezzle
    billions of dollars for the personal gain of corrupt Venezuelan
    officials and businessmen. These sanctions aim to prevent the
    illegitimate Maduro regime and other corrupt actors from
    further enriching themselves at the expense of the Venezuelan
    people.
        Concurrent with this action, Treasury's Office of Foreign
    Assets Control issued general licenses that authorized certain
    transactions and activities with PDVSA to help mitigate
    unintended consequences on U.S. companies, interests, and
    allies. These licenses provide equal treatment to U.S.
    refineries that import Venezuelan crude oil. Any payments made
    to PDVSA must, however, be made into a blocked interest-bearing
    account located in the United States. These funds will be
    preserved for the people of Venezuela.
        CITGO, a wholly owned U.S. subsidiary of PDVSA, is
    authorized to continue business operations for the next 6
    months. However, this license does not extend to dealings with
    PDVSA. The license for U.S. companies operating in Venezuela
    will allow them to continue operations with minimal exceptions.
    The oil sector is an integral part of the Venezuelan economy
    and its revival will be essential to the country's economic
    recovery.
        We have engaged allies, including those in other regions,
    such as Europe and Asia, who have joint ventures with PDVSA in
    Venezuela, on the goals and objectives of these sanctions. We
    are working to avoid disruptions in vulnerable energy sectors
    in the Caribbean and Central America in light of PDVSA's
    integrated role in those local and regional energy markets.
        The United States continues to work with oil producers and
    consumers all over the world to ensure access to reliable and
    affordable energy supplies. We believe disruptions are unlikely
    since oil markets are adequately supplied. And U.S. oil
    producers are a key reason why markets are well supplied. Over
    the past year, U.S. crude oil production increased by nearly 2
    million barrels a day and exports increased by a million
    barrels a day. This added to market liquidity. U.S. production
    and exports are poised to continue to grow over the coming
    months.
        And so, in closing, I would like to note that we are
    carefully considering ongoing U.S. involvement in, and links
    with, the Venezuelan energy sector, as we balance our effort to
    support the restoration of democracy and the eventual
    rebuilding of Venezuela. U.S. sanctions need not be permanent.
    They are intended to change behavior. The path to sanctions
    relief for PDVSA is through the expeditious transfer of control
    of the company so that it is no longer a tool for the former
    Maduro regime's illegitimate uses.
        Thank you for your attention, and I am happy to take any
    questions you may have.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Oudkirk follows:]

        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Engel. Thank you, Ms. Oudkirk.
        Mr. Olive.

       STATEMENT OF STEVE OLIVE, ACTING ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR,
      BUREAU FOR LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN, U.S. AGENCY FOR
                       INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

        Mr. Olive. Chairman Engel, Ranking Member McCaul, and
    members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to
    testify today on this critical and timely subject. I am
    grateful for the committee's longstanding bipartisan support
    for Latin America and the Caribbean, especially Venezuela.
        I am proud of the work that we have done to help
    Venezuelans and the neighboring communities that are hosting
    them. Administrator Green and I met some of these Venezuelans
    who had fled their homeland when we visited Cucuta, Colombia
    last July.
        However, we know that humanitarian assistance alone will
    not address the root causes driving people away from Venezuela.
    Lasting political and economic reforms are the only sustainable
    solutions to this crisis. This is a pivotal moment in the
    history of Venezuela. The people are standing up against the
    dictator; they are not alone. As USAID Administrator Mark Green
    said, and I quote, ``We proudly stand with the people of
    Venezuela who are yearning for freedom and a true democracy.''
    End quote.
        Venezuelans have endured steady erosion of human rights and
    fundamental freedoms under the corrupt and repressive Maduro
    regime. We have seen widespread shortages of essential food and
    medicine. There have been major outbreaks of diseases like
    diphtheria, measles, and malaria, which had previously been
    under control or eliminated.
        On January 23d, the people peacefully took to the streets
    to protest against Maduro's regime. The National Assembly, the
    only legitimate body, has asserted its constitutional authority
    and put power back in where it belongs-in the hands of the
    Venezuelan people.
        The struggle for democracy in Venezuela is led by the
    Venezuelan people themselves. I am proud that USAID has a long
    tradition of standing by Venezuelans who have continued to
    assert their democratic rights. USAID supports local human
    rights defenders, civil society, independent media, electoral
    oversight, and the democratically elected National Assembly.
        Over the past 5 years, we have provided close to $40
    million in democracy assistance to these groups, including the
    planned $15 million in Fiscal Year 2018 funding, which cleared
    Congress yesterday. Thank you.
        I salute the bravery of the Venezuelans who have kept up
    the fight for democracy even when their cause seemed nearly
    impossible. USAID Administrator Mark Green and I have spoken by
    phone with Interim President Guaidod have met with
    Venezuelan ambassadors Vecchio and Borges to coordinate USAID's
    humanitarian response and support to the National Assembly, as
    they restore democracy and prosperity in Venezuela.
        Our most immediate priority will be to get food and
    medicine to those who need it. USAID will always be ready and
    willing to help vulnerable Venezuelans. When Interim President
    Guaidoquested urgent humanitarian assistance from the United
    States, Secretary of State Pompeo announced that we are ready
    to provide initial humanitarian assistance to the people of
    Venezuela. USAID has prepositioned food, nutritional
    supplements, hygiene kits, and medical supplies in Cucuta. The
    U.S. is coordinating with Interim President Guaidod
    his team of experts, governments in the region, and
    humanitarian partners on the logistics of deploying aid, to
    mobilize a response that is efficient and safe.
        Since Fiscal Year 2017, the United States has provided
    approximately $140 million, including nearly $97 million in
    humanitarian assistance and approximately $43 million in
    development assistance, to support affected countries'
    emergency efforts and build their long-term capacity to host
    the more than 3 million people who have fled Venezuela.
        Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member McCaul, members of the
    committee, thank you again for this opportunity to testify
    today. I thank you for your continued bipartisan support and
    look forward to engaging with you further as the United States
    helps the people of Venezuela to return to peace, prosperity,
    and democratic and citizen-responsive governance. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Olive follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Engel. Thank you very much, Mr. Olive.
        Let me start the questioning, and let me ask Mr. Abrams: as
    I said in my opening statement, I am certainly willing to give
    credit where it is due in terms of elements of the
    administration's approach to Venezuela. But my biggest concern
    about the policy is what seems to me is clearly missing, and
    that is an effort to deal with the 3 million Venezuelans who
    have fled the country. The administration has pushed countries
    in the region to open their homes and hearts to Venezuelans,
    and I certainly support this effort. But how can we call on
    other countries to admit Venezuelans while continuing to close
    the doors of our own country to these same individuals?
        So, my question is, will the Trump administration reassess
    its historically low refugee admission numbers, and will
    President Trump grant temporary protected status, or TPS, to
    the many Venezuelans here in the United States who should not
    be forced to return to Maduro's Venezuela? I would urge you to
    do so. I would like to hear what you have to say about it.
        Mr. Abrams. I cannot speak about the broader refugee
    question. It is just not within my own remit. The question of
    Venezuelans, in particular, the doors are not closed,
    certainly, for those who have a reasonable fear of persecution
    and can apply for political asylum.
        But, on the broader question, I think you are raising an
    important question, and it is one that I intend to discuss with
    the Secretary when he completes the current trip to Europe, the
    question of Venezuelans who are in the United States.
        Chairman Engel. I hope we can continue to have dialog on it
    because I think it is really, really important. The situation,
    as you have said, with the refugees should really be paramount
    or at least upfront in terms of things that we are doing and
    things that we could do to help diffuse this crisis. So, I am
    going to pursue that, and I hope that we can get some more
    answers.
        Let me ask you again, Mr. Abrams, and maybe Ms. Oudkirk can
    also comment: when it comes to the new sanctions on the
    Venezuelan oil sector, I certainly understand the need to
    squeeze Maduro, but I hope that the White House has thought
    through the potential impact that these sanctions could have on
    the Venezuelan people if Maduro, by some reason, manages to
    remain in power. So, has the administration assessed the
    humanitarian impact of these sanctions on the Venezuelan people
    if there is not a quick transition? Have you considered the
    impact on U.S. refineries and their employees which process
    Venezuelan oil? And can you please share those assessments with
    us?
        Mr. Abrams. On the humanitarian impact, the money that the
    United States was paying to PDVSA was not going to the
    Venezuelan people. I mean, if it were, the kind of starvation,
    the kind of reappearance of communicable diseases would not be
    taking place. So, I do not think the sanctions alone are going
    to have that impact. But, in any event, we want to do a very
    big humanitarian surge with the many allies we have in this
    effort to help the Venezuelan people to make sure that their
    own situation is not worsened.
        Chairman Engel. OK. I hope that we can continue to have
    further dialog on it.
        Ms. Oudkirk, do you have a comment on that?
        Ms. Oudkirk. Yes, Mr. Chairman. On your question related to
    the impact on the United States, on refineries, we have been
    looking at that very closely and we are in very close contact
    with the 12 Gulf Coast refineries that imported the majority of
    Venezuelan crude oil that came into the United States. There
    are a number of license applications pending with OFAC that
    will provide some specific relief, and we at State are working,
    in concert with our Treasury colleagues, to process those as
    quickly as possible. And we are committed to remaining in
    contact with U.S. industry as the situation progresses.
        Chairman Engel. All right. Thank you very much.
        I would now like to call on Mr. McCaul, our ranking member.
        Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Abrams, I think we really have an historic opportunity
    to transform what has been a socialist dictatorship that has
    been a humanitarian crisis into a democracy supported by
    freedom and the people, and at the same time, I think for the
    first time in decades, have an influence on Cuba and the
    Western Hemisphere. As I look at the Russians in Venezuela and
    Iran, the Chinese, that worries me about our backyard.
        But I want to ask you this question: how important is it
    for the U.S. Congress to recognize the legitimacy of the
    Interim President Guaido?
        Mr. Abrams. Mr. McCaul, I think it would be very important.
    I mean, we have 51 countries, including the United States now,
    that recognize him as the interim legitimate President of
    Venezuela. I think it would be really valuable for the Congress
    to join that crowd.
        Mr. McCaul. I will continue to work in that effort with the
    chairman.
        Let me ask you about the military. I think the majority of
    the military supports the people and President Guaido. I think,
    unfortunately, the ones at the top, there is corruption; there
    is narco-terrorism, cartels. How do we get the military to move
    away from Maduro to support the people and President Guaido?
        Mr. Abrams. This is the toughest question. And our answer
    thus far has been, first, to pressure them, sanctioning many
    members of the upper ranks. Second, to tell them continually
    that there are off-ramps if they decide to side with the people
    of Venezuela. Thus far, obviously, that has not happened except
    in a few isolated cases.
        But we are hearing a lot of discontent in the military. I
    mean, for one thing, if you are a general and look down at the
    ranks, you know that your own people in the army are starving.
    And what about their brothers and sisters and mothers and
    fathers? So, we think that this opinion is spreading within the
    military that the current situation is untenable. We hope that
    there will be a decision on the part of many in the military,
    first, not to support the Maduro regime, but, second, not to
    block desperately needed humanitarian aid.
        Mr. McCaul. I was impressed by your optimism about the
    situation, that eventually that will happen.
        Mr. Olive, on the humanitarian aid issue, we saw the
    pictures of the roads being blocked off by Maduro, not allowing
    the humanitarian assistance from the Lima Group that agreed to
    send this down there. We just met with the President of
    Colombia, and he was talking about this very issue. How can we
    get that assistance into Venezuela to help these desperate
    people? And have you thought about possibly using not just the
    land borders, but the sea as well?
        Mr. Olive. Thank you, Ranking Member McCaul.
        We are, indeed, looking for ways of distributing the
    assistance safely and effectively within the country. We are in
    daily communication with Interim President Guaido and his team
    on finding out those avenues to do so. We are also committed to
    prepositioning goods and supplies in other parts, if that is
    necessary. We also are looking at scenarios of flying things
    in, as the situation permits.
        But, right now today, the Maduro regime is not allowing
    access. And we do hope that, through the diplomatic efforts we
    are making and the internal efforts by the Interim President
    Guaidod his team, we will change that scenario
    shortly.
        Mr. McCaul. Well, and I think as the people of Venezuela
    see what their, I would say, illegitimate President is doing
    and what the military is doing to block this humanitarian aid,
    that they will rise up even more so, and hopefully, return this
    country to a democracy. It could be such a great country with
    such great natural resources.
        And so, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you, Mr. McCaul. Mr. Sherman?
        Mr. Sherman. Wherever Russia goes, people flee. We have 3
    million Syrians who have left their country and nearly the same
    number of Venezuelans.
        There is talk here of Venezuela being a socialist country.
    I would say that various governments in Scandinavia have
    adopted policies of democratic socialism, and I do not think
    there is anyone in this room that would call the Maduro regime
    democratic socialist.
        We have got a situation where Russia expects to be repaid.
    Mr. Abrams, what steps are we considering to support an action
    by the Venezuelan people to say, ``OK, we owe you so much minus
    the $2, $3, $10 trillion of harm you did to our country by
    supporting this criminal Maduro; therefore, you only owe us $1
    trillion instead of $2 trillion.''? Mr. Abrams, are we
    discussing with the Russians how we can make it plain that in
    the permanent future of the Venezuelan government that they do
    not have to pay Russia and that they will not suffer any
    demerits in their credit rating for Western agencies and
    Western banks?
        Mr. Abrams. We have begun to have those discussions.
    Primarily, of course, it would be led by Treasury. But the
    interim government, the National Assembly, has said that they
    would repay debts. Some of those debts I think were never
    approved by the National Assembly. Ultimately, it is a decision
    with most of these that they are going to have to make.
        Mr. Sherman. But have we put the Russians on notice that we
    would support, and require our banks to support, a decision by
    the Venezuelan government to offset that by trillions of
    dollars of claims against Russia, and that we would prohibit,
    we might choose to prohibit our banks from looking at any
    credit rating that was impaired by failure to repay Russia?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not believe that exact message----
        Mr. Sherman. I hope you will.
        In this room we were told that Turkey is a great friend of
    the United States, and therefore, we should turn a blind eye to
    history and not recognize the Armenian genocide. Mr. Abrams,
    can you work inside the administration so that they have an
    understanding that Turkey is not a friend of ours here in our
    own hemisphere, and that, accordingly, the administration would
    announce that it would not object to this committee, once
    again, as it has in the past at the committee level, passing
    the Armenian genocide resolution?
        Mr. Abrams. You are going to get me in trouble here with
    these questions.
        Mr. Sherman. That is the job.
        Mr. Abrams. That is the idea.
        The role that Turkey is playing in Venezuela is to give
    all-out support to the Maduro regime. There are very few
    countries that are doing that. Turkey has decided to align
    itself with Russia/Cuba in taking that position. And I will
    certainly take your message back to the Department.
        Mr. Sherman. Are you directly in contact with the Turkish
    government regarding their policies in Venezuela?
        Mr. Abrams. I am not personally.
        Mr. Sherman. I hope you would talk to those who are----
        Mr. Abrams. Yes.
        Mr. Sherman [continuing]. And make it plain that the
    administration, if you just go neutral on this, Congress will
    be the conscience of this country.
        And we also have Venezuela reportedly owe China $20
    billion. I know that China's policy toward Maduro is different
    than that of Russia, but what is China doing now to help the
    legitimate government of Venezuela?
        Mr. Abrams. They are not doing anything to help Mr.----
        Mr. Sherman. Are they providing any additional funds to
    Maduro?
        Mr. Abrams. No. My information is that they will not lend
    any more money because they are worried about getting back what
    they have already lent. And the message that we have passed to
    them is, if you continue to back Maduro and the economy of
    Venezuela descends further, you will never get paid back.
        Mr. Sherman. And I would point out that countries repay
    loans because they fear they will not be able to borrow more
    because of the credit ratings that come from basically New
    York, and that there may be times when we need to instruct
    credit-rating agencies and banks not to regard as a demerit a
    failure to repay a criminal loan.
        I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you. Mr. Smith.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Welcome to our very distinguished witnesses, and it is
    great to see Elliott Abrams who has done a tremendous job for
    decades.
        Let me just ask, first, on sex tourism, there are about 3
    million people who have become refugees and an undetermined
    number are IDPs. Many are along the border of Colombia. We know
    that the gangs very often turn these women into sex slaves. So,
    my question is, what are we doing to try to combat that?
    Venezuela has been a Tier 3 country for many, many years,
    including currently, an egregious violator, and that is even
    before the latest crisis.
        Second, as was pointed out, Mr. Olive, 300,000 children are
    at risk of death from malnutrition. You underscore the
    resurgence of once eradicated diseases like diphtheria. I am
    wondering, have vaccinations ceased in Venezuela? I remember in
    the 1980's President Duarte in El Salvador had days of
    tranquility. And I have actually traveled down when--and
    Elliott will remember this very well--when Duarte and the FMLN
    had days of tranquility to vaccinate the kids because so many
    were dying from preventable diseases. Would days of tranquility
    be perhaps a way forward to get these kids vaccinated?
        Let me also point out that the Foro Penal, the Venezuelan
    human rights group, said, between January 21st and 31st, the
    number of Venezuelan political prisoners jumped from 273 to
    966. How many of those are being tortured? And why has not the
    U.N. been even more outspoken against this horrific
    mistreatment of these people, including young people,
    adolescents?
        And finally, The Wall Street Journal reported that the
    government of Juan Guaido has held debt negotiations here in
    Washington with China. Are we a part of that? Are we
    encouraging it?
        Not much time, but if you could answer those questions?
        Mr. Abrams. Let me just begin on the trafficking of
    persons. We get no cooperation from the Maduro regime, of
    course. There are efforts--and Mr. Olive can talk about that--
    on the Colombian side of the border to offer not only food and
    medicine, but some protection as well.
        Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman.
        And that is absolutely correct. On the border areas,
    especially in Colombia that is, our funding does help with that
    issue. It is a very large issue that we cannot control
    completely, but our programs do address that.
        Mr. Smith. Can you provide for the record some elaboration
    on that, and how well the TIP office is engaging on this as
    well?
        Mr. Olive. I will defer to State for the TIP offices. But,
    for our programs that we are providing in Colombia, they
    include identifying vulnerable people who might be vulnerable
    for trafficking, working with youth on the issue, et cetera, as
    part of the programming.
        Sir, in terms of vaccines, yes, it is true that inside
    Venezuela there are less and less medicines and vaccines
    available, and therefore, less children and other people being
    vaccinated. We have seen an increase, then, in these diseases,
    as a result. We are monitoring that carefully in Colombia,
    again, as part of our assistance. The Colombian medical system
    is very concerned about being overwhelmed and having these
    diseases to be on the increase in their country as well. And
    so, that is part of our assistance package, and eventually, the
    assistance package that goes into Venezuela will also include
    vaccines.
        Mr. Smith. Did you want to comment on the debt issue and
    whether or not the Chinese negotiations with the----
        Mr. Abrams. I do not believe there are any negotiations,
    using that terms narrowly.
        Mr. Smith. OK. Talks?
        Mr. Abrams. Discussions, sending of messages, have taken
    place. There have been some reports in the press, also, about
    additional talks that the Chinese have denied. And I have not
    had a chance to find out whether they have actually taken
    place.
        Mr. Smith. If you could speak to the use of torture? And is
    the Convention on Torture and the experts at the U.N. treaty
    body looking into this? Anybody know?
        Mr. Abrams. There are many reports of use of torture in
    Venezuela, but they have not permitted the various U.N. Special
    Rapporteurs to come in for quite a while. So, that is one of
    the things we would like to see, for the regime to admit the
    Special Rapporteur on Torture.
        Mr. Olive. Congressman, your committee and Congress has
    provided us with increasing assistance to Venezuela, and it
    includes defending victims of human rights and helping them on
    these issues.
        Mr. Smith. Again, on the trafficking issue, are there any
    estimates as to how many women and/or children have been
    trafficked?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not have those. I do not know of the TIP
    office has them. We will find out and come back to you.
        Mr. Smith. OK. I appreciate that. Thank you.
        [The information referred to follows:]
        Chairman Engel. We are going to have to end the
    questioning. Thank you, Mr. Smith. Mr. Meeks.
        Mr. Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Democracy is the key for me. And I have got a deep and long
    history with Venezuela. I do not like the fact that there is no
    democracy in Saudi Arabia. I do not like the fact that there is
    no democracy in North Korea. And I speak out about it and,
    then, some of these places, they do not have any elections. I
    do have confidence in the Venezuelan people.
        I was back and have been involved in Venezuela when many
    were not here. I was part of a bipartisan delegation. It was
    Cass Ballenger from North Carolina, Bill Delahunt from
    Massachusetts, and myself who engaged with then-President Hugo
    Chavez. And I saw back then that individuals who were poor, who
    had never had anything from any other government, never any
    consideration, where I was on the ground to see that they, for
    the first time, were getting schools and hospitals, and getting
    their fair share under--and this President, Hugo Chavez, was
    elected in a free and fair election.
        I have seen, because I was there; I witnessed several of
    these elections, when the United States--and this is why the
    United States cannot lead in this matter--I was there several
    times for elections and I watched people line up in a peaceful
    way and waited for hours to vote, and elected Hugo Chavez. I
    saw recall elections, and Hugo Chavez allowed the democratic
    process to continue, and he faced those recall elections and
    won, fair and square.
        So, I, then, saw that there was an attempted coup in
    Venezuela in 2002. And as certain CIA evidence has now been
    revealed, we, the day after the coup, acknowledged the coup
    government. The people of Venezuela went back in the streets
    and demanded that their democratically elected President was
    restored.
        So, the context and the reason why I say that is it is
    complicated and difficult for us in the United States to take
    the lead when, in fact, the Venezuelan people also know that we
    acknowledge not a democratically elected President, but we try
    to undermine them.
        So, for me, democracy is important, and that is why I do,
    and I am worried about democracy when it has failed. And I have
    known Nicolas Maduro. We had this group called Grupo de Boston.
    And I have tried my best to try to bring both sides, opposition
    and at that time Chavistas together, and we had people working
    collectively.
        I must admit, under the Nicolas Maduro, I have seen the
    situation continue to deteriorate, and people of Venezuela are
    suffering. And I have seen him avoid some democratic elections.
    I have seen the National Assembly get democratically elected.
    So, there is democracy in Venezuela. That is why I recognize
    the National Assembly, and the National Assembly speaks, for
    me, for the people of Venezuela, which is why our focus should
    be on having free and fair elections in Venezuela.
        I am concerned about the conversations that the President
    is having with the threat of sending military into Venezuela.
    What our focus should be is to make sure that we are doing all
    that we can, supporting the Lima countries, the OAS, and the
    others, to have a free and fair election conducted, because the
    Venezuelan people believe in democracy. And that is why you see
    the National Assembly now where the opposition is.
        And I am continuing to talk with members of the opposition,
    members of the National Assembly, and members of the military,
    et cetera, about working together, so that we can have a free
    and fair election, so that the voices, not of the United
    States, but of the people of Venezuela is clearly heard.
        I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you, Mr. Meeks. Mr. Wilson.
        Mr. Wilson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank all of our witnesses for being here today.
        It is really sad to see one of the greatest countries of
    our hemisphere, Venezuela, which was one of the wealthiest
    countries of Latin America. I know that over the years our
    families had wonderful associations with Venezuelans that is
    just so reassuring. And I believe, too, in the people of
    Venezuela.
        And that is why I am very grateful that the National
    Assembly has elected President Juan Guaido, and the recognition
    by 51 countries of his presidency, and this is on behalf of the
    people of Venezuela.
        Additionally, I am very grateful for the United States
    Agency for International Development, Mr. Olive. People need to
    know how effective USAID has been around the world, helping
    persons in relief efforts, and, in particular, at this time,
    $97 million has already been provided; another $20 million from
    the State Department. But, of course, it is very clear that the
    aid has been blocked by the Maduro regime.
        And so, what efforts are being made to get around this
    blockage, Mr. Olive? And what can be done to help get more aid
    to the people of Venezuela?
        Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman, for your question.
        We are on a daily basis with calls with members of the
    interim government of Guaido's regime, of his presidency
    talking about ways we can get aid into the country. There are
    many scenarios being put forth. We are overturning every stone
    to see what is possible. There are diplomatic efforts that I am
    sure the Special Representative can also speak to. But, rest
    assured, daily we are trying to find a way to get this
    assistance to the people who need it most.
        Mr. Wilson. And we are very fortunate, again, to have 51
    countries recognize the Guaido presidency. What efforts are
    being made internationally, not just USAID, to help the people
    of Venezuela?
        Mr. Abrams. There is a very broad effort. You will have
    heard, at the Ottawa meeting about a week ago, Canada announced
    $53 million in additional aid. Each day, you find one or
    another country, mostly in Europe now, announcing another
    contribution to this effort. So, it is an increasingly
    international effort.
        Mr. Wilson. And to reassure the people of Venezuela, what
    efforts are being made that it, indeed, gets to the people of
    Venezuela, as opposed to what has occurred in the past of where
    there has been looting?
        Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman.
        We share that same concern, that the delivery of assistance
    must be done safely. It must be done efficiently. And those
    provisions need to be in place for us to be effective in
    delivering assistance to the Venezuelan people.
        Mr. Abrams. I would just add that I think that is true of
    all aid, including U.N. aid, and we have looked at that, too.
    That is, the regime has used aid--first of all, they have
    stolen a good deal of it, but they have also directed it to
    their political supporters. And we are trying to make sure that
    any path of aid that goes in is not diverted either for
    corruption or for political purposes.
        Mr. Wilson. Well, it just makes a difference for the
    people, and it is just encouraging to see bipartisan support
    for this aid.
        Ms. Oudkirk, it has been reported that the Maduro regime is
    either transferring or selling the assets of the people of
    Venezuela, which is their gold reserves. What is the latest on
    protecting the gold reserves for the people of Venezuela?
        Ms. Oudkirk. I am sorry, Mr. Congressman, I, unfortunately,
    do not work with gold reserves. I can take that question back,
    though.
        Mr. Wilson. And additionally, with that, we have sanctions.
    I hope that, as you get back with me, that we identify who the
    possible purchasers are and who is facilitating this, so that
    sanctions can be in place.
        And then, Mr. Abrams, again, thank you for your service for
    our country.
        We know that there is drug trafficking, significant, out of
    the regime, the Maduro regime; human trafficking. What is being
    done? And also, terrorists, harboring of Hezbollah, FARC. And
    what is being done to identify this and block efforts that
    would threaten American families?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, it is very difficult when you have a
    regime that is, in fact, very much in favor of doing that. ELN,
    a guerilla group from Colombia, is protected on their side of
    the border. There is a lot of drug trafficking that benefits
    the top officials of the regime.
        What can we do? Well, one thing we can do is sanction those
    who are involved in this. In some cases, we can prosecute
    people involved in this, and try to assemble the information.
    Because the day will come when Venezuelans will take back
    control of their own government and their own country and they
    will be able to pursue this.
        Mr. Wilson. Thank you. We look forward to a bright future
    for Venezuela. Thank you very much.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you. Mr. Sires.
        Mr. Sires. Thank you, Chairman, for holding this meeting.
        And thank you to the witnesses that are here today.
        Ms. Oudkirk, can you talk to me a little bit about the oil
    sanctions? I know that, in light of reports that Juan Guaido
    plans to name a new board of directors for CITGO, the process
    will require the U.S. to legally recognize the new board
    members. Would a new board have access to U.S. bank accounts
    with proceeds from Venezuela's oil sales that are being blocked
    by the sanctions?
        Ms. Oudkirk. Thank you, Mr. Congressman.
        So, as I noted in my remarks, the key to sanctions relief
    for PDVSA is the transfer of control of that company away from
    Maduro and his cronies and to a democratically elected
    representative of the Venezuelan people.
        With regards to CITGO, CITGO operations in the United
    States are covered by a general license that Treasury issued on
    the day the sanctions were announced. So, CITGO's operations
    here in the U.S. are continuing under that license, and that
    license covers them for 6 months from the date of announcement.
    The ban is on remitting payments back to PDVSA as long as it is
    under the illegitimate control.
        Mr. Sires. What would a board do named by Guaido? What
    would that do if he names a new board?
        Ms. Oudkirk. For CITGO?
        Mr. Sires. Yes.
        Ms. Oudkirk. I will have to get back to you on the details
    of that. I do not have the answer for you right now. I am
    sorry.
        Mr. Sires. Mr. Abrams, do you?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, we do not want any funds to go to the
    regime. So, that would not be permitted. But I think there are
    a lot of lawyers in Washington who are making a lot of money
    trying to figure out the answer to your question.
        Mr. Sires. Well, my daughter is lawyer. Let's not kill the
    lawyers.
        [Laughter.]
        Go ahead.
        Well, you know, my thing is, if we are able to get this
    money in U.S. banks, and obviously, under the sanctions, could
    that money be used for humanitarian purposes in Venezuela?
        Mr. Abrams. It can. All these funds, all Venezuelan
    government funds are, in our view, rightly available to the
    legitimate Interim President, Mr. Guaido, and the National
    Assembly. So, they can use those funds to purchase additional
    humanitarian assistance.
        There are a lot of procedures to go through to get them
    actual control of it. And they have made it clear that they
    want to be extremely careful. They are going to be accused of
    misusing the funds. So, everything has to be totally
    transparent. But, in principle, yes.
        Mr. Sires. OK. And I know that Maduro is propped up by the
    Cubans in Venezuela. How many Cubans are really actually in
    Venezuela propping him up?
        Mr. Abrams. To give you a round number, it is in the
    multiple thousands. It is not a few hundred. It is several
    thousand Cuban officials, including intelligence people.
        Mr. Sires. And getting back to the money, I know that he
    made an effort to move a billion dollars into Uruguay in gold.
    And Uruguay rejected it. Did you read that article?
        Mr. Abrams. There are continuing efforts, and some of them,
    I am sorry to say, look as if they have been successful, in
    which a private jet comes in and gold is put on it, and off it
    goes. And then, the gold is sold, and the money goes to people
    in the regime.
        Mr. Sires. Now they are opening an account in Russia? That
    was the latest that I read. They moved the money into Russia?
        Mr. Abrams. I have seen that information, too. Most Western
    banks, not just American banks, European banks, will not touch
    any of this. So, they need to go look for things like a Russian
    bank that will deal with it.
        Mr. Sires. But if we prevent the money from going into
    Venezuela, where are they getting this money to move to Russia?
    Can you speak to that?
        Ms. Oudkirk. So, I think the point of the sanctions is to
    do exactly what you just described, to keep the money in these
    blocked interest-bearing accounts in the United States, so that
    they do not flow back to Venezuela and are not, then, you
    know----
        Mr. Sires. Disappear?
        Ms. Oudkirk [continuing]. Disappeared. However, the
    sanctions were only announced a couple of weeks ago. So, money
    that had gone back before then is available to the illegitimate
    regime to be used for these purposes. So, the point is, from
    now going forward, keeping that money in the blocked accounts,
    so that it cannot be misused.
        Mr. Sires. OK. Thank you very much. My time is up.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you very much. Mr. Yoho.
        Mr. Yoho. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the panel
    being here.
        As we know, the Maduro disastrous economy has created a
    food insecurity. Only about 30 percent of the protein
    requirements are being met. There are cases of malaria and TB
    increasing. In a failed State, you see measles, diphtheria;
    sanitation goes down. So, it is a bad situation and it is going
    to get worse.
        Yet, over the last 10 years, Maduro--and I am going to, in
    a spirit of bipartisanship, I am going to agree with my
    colleague, Gregory Meeks about Chavez in the beginning. Because
    there were some rapid changes that did benefit the people in
    the lower tiers of the economy. However, that got absconded in
    his third and fourth term, and then, Maduro just lost it.
        Maduro has taken over $11 billion from the Venezuelan
    people, and it is the most violent country on the planet today.
    And you think of all the things going around as far as murders
    per capita. And then, you look at who is supporting Maduro. It
    is Cuba, Russia, China, Iran, Bolivia, Turkey, certainly not
    cheerleaders of democracy or certainly America.
        And then, I look at Cuba, and we have heard numbers over
    the course of the last few years that Maduro has Cuban security
    guards around him because he does not trust the Venezuelans. We
    have heard numbers up to 40,000 Cuban soldiers in Venezuela.
    Are they playing a role of surveillance and intimidation, in
    your experience, in the information you have, toward the
    Venezuelan people?
        Mr. Abrams. Yes, and toward the Venezuela security forces,
    Mr. Yoho. I think you are exactly right, that they are the
    security guards directly around Maduro. And one of their really
    important roles is to spy on and surveil the security forces,
    the army, to make sure that everybody shows loyalty to Maduro.
    He does not trust his own people.
        Mr. Yoho. You know, I am glad you brought that up, the
    surveillance. We just heard last week from a very reliable
    source that China, via ZTE, is offering their facial
    recognition to the Maduro government, so that they can control
    their people like China is doing. Russia wants that technology.
    They are going to do it. Iran wants that. And I think we are
    seeing things played out.
        History is repeating itself with a failed State that
    creates a vacuum, that vacuum will be filled. And so, we have
    got a choice. We can allow Russia, China, Iran, Cuba, people
    that are anti-democracies, anti-American, fill that void. The
    people of Latin America, Venezuela in particular, will really
    suffer. Or we can get behind the legitimate Interim President,
    President Guaido. And with us and the 51 nations, as Mr. Wilson
    talked about, stand behind them because that is the right thing
    to do, and it is the right thing to do for the Venezuelan
    people.
        Something came up in a question. Do the people of Venezuela
    have gun ownership rights or was that taken away by Chavez or
    Maduro?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not know the answer to that.
        Mr. Yoho. OK.
        Mr. Abrams. I will have to find out.
        Mr. Yoho. But it is interesting that a socialist country
    that turns to a dictatorship does not have the means to protect
    themselves. Yet, the criminal gangs do and the narco-terrorists
    have those, and the military has those.
        Mr. Abrams. We do know that the Maduro regime has
    distributed arms to its gangs.
        Mr. Yoho. They have, and I think that, again, goes to just
    the breakdown of Maduro, because he knows he is not legitimate.
    And if we are going to honor legitimate elections, we know that
    President Guaido is the one that we need to follow.
        Ms. Oudkirk, you were talking, the question came up about
    CITGO. If the legitimate President gets recognized around the
    world, President Guaido, that money that CITGO is producing, if
    we were to remove the sanctions, or keep the sanctions on, that
    money can go into escrow, cannot it, so that we know it does
    not go to Maduro? And when things get sorted out, it will go
    back to the rightful owners, the Venezuelan people, right? We
    can do that, cannot we?
        Ms. Oudkirk. Yes, Mr. Congressman. The point of the
    license, the general license that was provided for CITGO
    operations, was to allow CITGO to continue to operate here in
    the United States, and for any funds that would have been
    remitted back to the PDVSA parent in Venezuela, to be held in a
    blocked interest-bearing account here for the future use of the
    democratically elected representatives of the----
        Mr. Yoho. Thank you. I am out of time. And I appreciate
    your expertise. Thank you.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you. Mr. Keating.
        Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Abrams, you said that there is a coalition of 51
    countries joining with us or that we are part of. How many of
    those countries have said that the use of military force is an
    option and should be on the table? How many of those other
    countries have stated that?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not know of any that have Stated it.
        Mr. Keating. I do not, either, and that is why I asked the
    question. So, we are the only ones that have Stated that, have
    their leaders say that?
        Mr. Abrams. We are the only one probably in a position----
        Mr. Keating. Oh, no, that is not what I asked. I mean, the
    other thing is, Ambassador Bolton, just a couple of weeks ago,
    was seen holding a notepad and it captured ``5,000 troops to
    Colombia''. And the President, last weekend, is again stating
    that the use of U.S. military force is an option. And my
    concern is, if it were part of a coalition, we should be
    working in concert with that, not standing alone having an
    option like that on the table.
        And I think that, as you look at our actions in that
    respect, I think, indeed, it can backfire on us. I think it
    plays right into Maduro's rhetoric about the U.S. involvement.
    And I think it is something that will not help the cause of
    that.
        Has President Guaido, has he ever said anything or uttered
    anything about the use of U.S. military force as an option? Has
    he said that?
        Mr. Abrams. He actually made a comment a few days ago
    relating to humanitarian----
        Mr. Keating. No, I mean military force, I am talking about.
        Mr. Abrams [continuing]. Related to getting humanitarian
    assistance in. But this is not the path, I think you can see,
    that the U.S. Government is pursuing.
        Mr. Keating. Then, why are we saying it, though? That is my
    question.
        Mr. Abrams. Because we always say it in all----
        Mr. Keating. You know, Section 3 of the War Powers
    Resolution says the President should be consulting with us. I
    think we are doing so many things that could be helpful. We are
    working in concert with other countries. All those things are
    good. But the statement--I mean, I do not think it was a
    mistake perhaps that that notebook phrase from Ambassador
    Bolton was captured. And why would he have that on his
    notebook? Why would that come out? And why would the President
    be saying this without working in concert with the other
    countries in the coalition or without having, first, a sincere
    dialog with Congress on this matter? Doesn't that make your job
    more difficult?
        Mr. Abrams. It has not because we always take the position
    that all options are on the table.
        Mr. Keating. Well, perhaps that is not a good option right
    here. I believe strongly that we are hurting our cause and the
    cause of the Venezuelan people.
        Mr. Abrams. Well, in the work that we are doing--and we are
    doing it--on the diplomatic front and on the economic front, on
    the humanitarian front, with lots of other countries, this
    issue does not get in the way.
        Mr. Keating. Well, I think it plays right into the hands of
    the dictator that is our adversary right now. And I think it
    really undercuts the ability and our involvement with the
    Venezuelan people themselves. Because, ultimately, I think we
    all agree the resolution, if there is going to be any kind of
    significant, tangible resolution, will come at the hands of the
    Venezuelan people themselves to make that.
        Mr. Abrams. I agree.
        Mr. Keating. Just a quick question then. Before we
    recognized President Guaido, were there actions taken to make
    sure our embassy personnel were secure before that was uttered?
    Was there actual policy discussion before that was uttered?
        Mr. Abrams. Yes. This is a matter of the utmost
    significance to all of us, to the Secretary. We speak to the
    charge' in Caracas literally every day. I talked to him this
    morning again about the question of security. It is on the
    minds of everybody in the Department and it was then.
        Mr. Keating. I would suggest, too, as a final comment, that
    it is too late now, but, as we go forward, before the
    administration is talking about the use of military force in
    this situation, keeping that as an option, that they should
    have sincere discussions with this committee and with Congress,
    and then, make declarations like that.
        I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you. Ms. Wagner.
        Mrs. Wagner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for organizing this
    hearing.
        And thank you to our witnesses for their time and certainly
    for their service.
        Mr. Abrams, in keeping with the prior questioning, I can
    say that, in the wake of Maduro's abortive attempt to expel
    U.S. diplomats, the United States is negotiating with the
    Venezuelan foreign ministry to establish a U.S. interest
    office, I have been told. Mr. Abrams, can you provide an update
    on these negotiations? And again, what security measures have
    been taken to keep our diplomats safe?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, on the security measures, I wouldn't want
    to go into that at an open hearing. But the security question
    is one, again, that is on our minds every day. We are not
    negotiating an intersection. An intersection is used in a case
    where there is a government and we do not recognize that
    government. But in Venezuela there is a government we do
    recognize, which is----
        Mrs. Wagner. So, is there a U.S. interest office being
    stood up, or no?
        Mr. Abrams. No, there is not.
        Mrs. Wagner. There is not? All right.
        Mr. Abrams. There is not.
        Mrs. Wagner. I am amazed at the breadth of the
    international coalition now calling for change in Venezuela.
    Principles of sovereignty and non-interference have in the past
    limited some Latin American countries from speaking out against
    regional abuses, but Latin America is truly stepping up to the
    plate and taking a strong stance against our neighbor.
        Mr. Abrams, what was the tipping point for Latin American
    States that have called for Maduro to step down and how is the
    U.S. working to unify this coalition of hemispheric States to
    stand against human rights abuses in Venezuela?
        Mr. Abrams. I think the tipping point has really been
    Maduro conduct, the conduct of the government. And when
    Venezuelans in the National Assembly came together behind
    Interim President Guaido, that I think was the moment when--and
    I agree with you, it is really quite----
        Mrs. Wagner. Remarkable.
        Mr. Abrams [continuing]. Remarkable to see so many
    countries of Latin America, and also in Europe, which is
    against their usual practice, you know----
        Mrs. Wagner. Correct.
        Mr. Abrams [continuing]. To come forward and recognize him.
        We are in touch with really all of them constantly as we
    talk about now, for example, we had the Lima Group meeting; we
    had the meeting in Ottawa. We have tomorrow a humanitarian
    assistance meeting hosted by the OAS. So, there is a constant--
    --
        Mrs. Wagner. To that point, Mr. Abrams--and I do not mean
    to interrupt--but, as a followup, I know that the Organization
    of American States has also been uncharacteristically critical
    of Maduro and refused to recognize Maduro's legitimacy last
    month. I understand that Venezuela is seeking to leave the OAS.
    But how can the Organization continue to support free and fair
    democracy in Venezuela? Can the OAS aid the United States and
    these other coalitions in enforcing sanctions on the Maduro
    regime?
        Mr. Abrams. At some point, there may be a credentials fight
    in the OAS because, until there is, the Maduro regime is the
    recognized government, according to the OAS. And we have the
    same problem in New York at the U.N. as well. But, to the
    extent that the Organization can help, particularly on the
    humanitarian side, they are trying to do so.
        Mrs. Wagner. I know OAS last month refused to recognize
    Maduro's legitimacy. So, that is a good development.
        Venezuela has longstanding ties with Hezbollah, an Iranian
    proxy and terrorist organization. Mr. Abrams, to what extent
    does the Maduro regime rely on proceeds from illicit activities
    supported by groups like Hezbollah and drug trafficking
    networks for its survival? What are we doing to address this?
    Thank you.
        Mr. Abrams. The regime has made a great deal of money, and
    higher-ups in the regime have made a great deal of money, over
    the last decade, in particular, out of things like drug
    trafficking. It is very hard for us to address when the
    government in place, of course, is behind all of this and is
    profiting from it, and the people who ought to be engaged in
    law enforcement are, in fact, themselves making money from
    this.
        So, what do we do? We sanction them. We cancel visas in
    some cases. We can try to go after them through criminal
    prosecutions in some cases, and we have. There are some people
    in jail in the United States, Venezuelans, for engagement in
    drug trafficking, people who are connected to the regime. But
    the real solution to this is to get a democratic government in
    place that will fight drug trafficking with us.
        Mrs. Wagner. I thank you.
        My time has expired. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you very much. Mr. Cicilline.
        Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you to our witnesses.
        We have all watched in horror as the Maduro regime has
    destroyed Venezuela's economy, starved its people, and engaged
    in widespread corruption and repression. We all want a better
    future for the people of Venezuela and want to end this manmade
    humanitarian crisis. And we all believe that the Venezuelan
    people have the right to pick their own leaders, a right Maduro
    has denied his people by refusing to hold free and fair
    elections.
        However, we must be very careful, in my opinion. It is not
    the job of the United States to choose leaders in other
    countries. The United States has a long and not-all-together
    positive history of involvement in Latin America, which I
    believe you are all familiar with.
        And each transition in Venezuela must be truly democratic
    and led by the people of Venezuela. The United States must work
    with the National Assembly and other governments in the region
    in a supporting role.
        And I want to turn to my first series of questions because
    I am concerned by continuing comments from the Trump
    administration, noting that the use of military force is, as
    the President said, ``an option''. And so, for you, Mr. Abrams,
    my first question is, we have not, of course, the Congress of
    the United States has not declared war on Venezuela. Correct?
        Mr. Abrams. Correct.
        Mr. Cicilline. Is there an existing statutory authorization
    that would allow for a military intervention in Venezuela? Yes
    or no?
        Mr. Abrams. Not to my knowledge.
        Mr. Cicilline. Has Venezuela attacked the United States,
    its territories or possessions, or its Armed Forces?
        Mr. Abrams. No.
        Mr. Cicilline. Has the administration increased troop
    deployments to countries, including Colombia, neighboring
    Venezuela at any point in the last month?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not believe so.
        Mr. Cicilline. Are there currently any plans to, or
    discussions about, moving additional combat troops to Colombia
    or any other country that neighbors Venezuela?
        Mr. Abrams. Not to my knowledge.
        Mr. Cicilline. Is anyone at the White House, the National
    Security Council, the Department of Defense, or any other
    agency, making plans for U.S. military engagement in Venezuela?
        Mr. Abrams. That is a question I cannot answer. I know of
    no such planning, but----
        Mr. Cicilline. Well, consistent with the War Powers Act, I
    have introduced legislation that expressly prohibits the
    administration from taking military action in Venezuela without
    consulting Congress. Will you pledge that the Trump
    administration will not take any military action regarding
    Venezuela without consulting with Congress, in accordance with
    the War Powers Act?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not know that I can answer that question,
    Mr. Cicilline. A series of Presidents, you know, have taken a
    jaundice view, I might say, of the War Powers Act. So, I am
    really not in a position to speak----
        Mr. Cicilline. OK. Well, under our Constitution, as you
    know, only Congress can declare war, and we have neither
    declared war nor granted the administration the authority to
    send the Armed Forces into hostilities in Venezuela. In my
    view, it would be illegal under U.S. law, inappropriate, and
    reckless to attempt a military intervention. The United States
    must show leadership in our hemisphere and we must continue to
    provide aid to suffering Venezuelans.
        But I want to just build on Mr. Keating's question, because
    you said, of the 51 countries in this coalition, we are the
    only one that has threatened the use of military force. And in
    response to a question from Mr. Keating, you said, because we
    are the only one capable of doing it. Surely, you are not
    suggesting the other 50 countries do not have the military
    capability to engage in a military action, if they so elected,
    do you?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, some do and some do not.
        Mr. Cicilline. So, some do? We are not the only ones that
    have that ability.
        Mr. Abrams. We have not threatened military action in
    Venezuela.
        Mr. Cicilline. You said we are not the----
        Mr. Abrams. I mean, all options are on the table.
        Mr. Cicilline. My question is, we are not the only one that
    has that capability? So, when you said that to Mr. Keating,
    that was not accurate?
        Mr. Abrams. We are the only one with the kind of
    capability, obviously, that----
        Mr. Cicilline. OK, but others have military capability and
    have not made the same assertion of that being an option? Isn't
    that correct?
        Mr. Abrams. I am actually not sure of the answer to that,
    of what other governments have said.
        Mr. Cicilline. OK. So, Mr. Abrams, what is particularly
    concerning to me is that, in light of the fact there is no
    legal authority to express the use of military force as an
    option, it is unclear to me how the President or anyone in the
    administration can claim it is an option on the table, because
    it is not. And to the extent that we are suggesting that it is,
    we are misleading the international community or misleading the
    people in Venezuela. So, I urge you to take back the message to
    the administration that it is not authorized and not helpful.
        And I would now like to turn to Mr. Olive to talk a little
    bit about the politicization of aid. Is it true that,
    historically, American humanitarian assistance has been offered
    on the basis of need alone?
        Mr. Olive. Yes, correct.
        Mr. Cicilline. And would you say that, in order to provide
    lifesaving assistance in war zones and dangerous areas,
    humanitarians need to be able to operate in a neutral and
    apolitical way?
        Mr. Olive. Correct.
        Mr. Cicilline. And is it true that the United States,
    through USAID, is prepositioning humanitarian aid in the border
    of Venezuela?
        Mr. Olive. Yes, we are.
        Mr. Cicilline. Do you have any concerns that tying
    humanitarian assistance to a particular political outcome could
    have unintended consequences or harm our ability to deliver
    assistance in Venezuela or to other countries? And what steps
    is the administration taking to ensure that aid does not become
    a flash-point?
        Mr. Olive. Administrator Green has said we will always, as
    the U.S. Government, be ready to help those in need. There are
    people in need in our hemisphere right now as a result of this
    crisis, and we are preparing--we already are supporting them in
    these border areas. We are doing what we can to build the
    capacity in-country to receive and distribute aid securely and
    efficiently, and be able to monitor those distributions, and
    that is our focus.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you.
        Mr. Cicilline. I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Mr. Wright.
        Mr. Wright. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I want to thank all three of you for being here today. And,
    Mr. Abrams, I am very glad you are here. I agree with our
    ranking member that you are exactly the right person for the
    job.
        Mr. Abrams. Thank you.
        Mr. Wright. I have always believed that it is ill-advised,
    if not self-defeating, to broadcast to ruthless dictators what
    the United States is willing or unwilling to do; that it is a
    mistake to tell someone like Maduro that we are willing to use
    a manual screwdriver, but never a power drill; and that, in
    fact, we should not remove any tools from the toolbox.
        My question, Mr. Abrams, is, does the War Powers Act
    require that the President of the United States get permission
    from Congress to even speak about using military force?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not believe so.
        Mr. Wright. I did not think so. And is it not true that
    military action is always an option, unless Presidential action
    triggers the War Powers Act and the Congress says no?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, I think that is correct.
        Mr. Wright. That is what I thought. Thank you very much.
        I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. All right. Thank you. Mr. Bera.
        Mr. Bera. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I am going to continue asking questions in the same line as
    my colleagues, Mr. Keating and Cicilline. And I do not want any
    of this to be construed as--you know, I think what the Chavez
    regime and the Maduro regime have done to Venezuela is an
    absolute disaster and the humanitarian crisis that they have
    created is a disaster, and we have to do everything to support
    the people of Venezuela. But our Framers, by their genius and
    design, created separation of powers, keeping the Nation's
    purse and sword separate.
        Congress is empowered to declare war, provide for and
    regulate the Armed Forces. The President, as Commander-in-
    Chief, has the responsibility to direct the Armed Forces as
    they conduct the hostilities.
        We have been talking a little bit about the War Powers
    Resolution. It is absolutely very clear it provides the
    President to introduce U.S. Armed Forces into situations of
    hostilities or imminent hostilities as exercised only pursuant
    to, one, a declaration of war; two, specific statutory
    authorization, or, three, a national emergency created by an
    attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions,
    or its Armed Forces.
        Mr. Abrams, my colleagues have already pressed you a little
    bit on the use of military force in Venezuela. I would like to
    ask you a yes-or-no question. Do you agree with the War Powers
    Resolution which States, quote, ``The President in every
    possible instance shall consult with Congress before
    introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into
    situation where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly
    indicated by the circumstances, and after every such
    introduction shall consult regularly with the Congress until
    United States Armed Forces,'' until they ``are no longer
    engaged in hostilities or have been removed from such
    situations.''? Yes/no?
        Mr. Abrams. I cannot give you a yes-or-no answer to that. I
    mean, this is a long debate, as you know better than I.
    Presidents, including the most recent President, President
    Obama, have used force in cases where there was a big debate
    about the War Powers Act. And Presidents sometimes have said,
    ``I'm submitting a report, but I'm not sure that I'm obliged to
    do so.'' I just cannot get into that debate today. I am not
    prepared to do so.
        Mr. Bera. Again, I think the War Powers Act is very clear
    in when the President is authorized to introduce U.S. forces.
        Mr. Olive, I am going to shift to you. As I mentioned prior
    to the hearing, I also do publicly want to acknowledge the men
    and women that serve this country every day from our State
    Department, our diplomats, our aid and development folks. We
    are proud of them, and I think we cannot acknowledge their work
    and contribution and patriotism to our country enough.
        Can you give me a quick assessment of how bad the
    humanitarian crisis in-country is at this juncture and how much
    worse it has gotten over the past few weeks?
        Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman, and thank you for your
    kind words to my colleagues. I will definitely take that
    message back to them.
        Mr. Bera. Thank you.
        Mr. Olive. The situation is deteriorating on a daily basis.
    The reports that we have gotten from inside the country are
    hospitals are drastically reducing their supplies and not able
    to have surgical equipment, vaccines, et cetera, available to
    even do routine types of surgeries, let alone more complicated
    ones.
        We are very concerned about the power grid. There are
    numerous power outages throughout the country that, of course,
    affect then, hospitals and clinics, et cetera.
        Food is available, but it is controlled by the regime and
    used as a tool. And that is something that is deteriorating the
    country as well. So, people are having trouble getting food. We
    are hearing of increasing amounts of malnutrition amongst
    infants in being able to get the nutrients that they need at
    those early stages of life.
        So, yes, our reports are pretty steady that this is
    declining on a daily basis.
        Mr. Bera. Well, thank you.
        In my limited time, Mr. Abrams, given this deterioration
    and the circumstances on the ground, and given the unique
    situation where the Venezuelan military really does have a lot
    of power in terms of which direction things go, have you seen a
    shift in open sources that suggests the military is now moving
    away from Maduro or support for Maduro is changing?
        Mr. Abrams. I think we have seen some indications of that.
    It is probably a subject better discussed in closed hearing.
        Mr. Bera. Great. Thank you.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you.
        Mr. Bera. And I will yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Mr. Reschenthaler.
        Mr. Reschenthaler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thanks to everybody who came in today to testify.
        Mr. Abrams, as a veteran of the Iraq War, I just want to
    thank you for everything that you did in service of the
    country.
        Mr. Abrams. Thank you.
        Mr. Reschenthaler. Thank you.
        Over the past several months, we have witnessed the brave
    people of Venezuela rise up against the despot and dictator
    Nicolas Maduro. Since Maduro's rise to power in 2013, Venezuela
    has been plagued with poverty, death, and misery. The regime's
    authoritarian role and socialist policies have led to over 3
    million Venezuelans fleeing the country, 90 percent of the
    population living below the poverty line, and 300,000 children
    at risk of starvation. It is one of the most violent countries
    in the world, rampant with murder. And hyperinflation is
    expected to reach 10 million percent by the end of 2019.
    Venezuela is in the midst of an extreme humanitarian crisis
    that must be addressed immediately.
        Mr. Abrams, how have the socialist economic policies of the
    Maduro regime led to Venezuela's collapse?
        Mr. Abrams. I would say it was a combination of
    mismanagement, corruption, and policy. For example, what has
    happened with PDVSA? Instead of treating it as a private
    company, what they have done is basically looted it and put all
    sorts of regime supporters in there. There is no State of law
    in Venezuela, So that private property, in a sense, really does
    not exist. If the regime does not want you to have private
    property, they will just take it away from you. So, it has been
    a disastrous downward spiral.
        Mr. Reschenthaler. What are the core functions of the
    Maduro relationship with Cuba, Russia, and China?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, I think in the case of China and Russia,
    they have gotten a lot of money. That is enormous loans, tens
    of billions of dollars. Cuba is different. Obviously, they do
    not have any money to give. What they give is people, largely
    intelligence and military people, to surround this regime and
    act as a kind of loyalist corps. As Venezuelans become more and
    more disillusioned with this regime, Maduro surrounds himself
    with Cubans who he trusts more than his own people.
        Mr. Reschenthaler. Do you see a situation arising where the
    United States would become involved militarily in Venezuela?
    And if you do see that, how do you foresee that scenario
    playing out?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not see it. I do not see it. And one of
    the things that is sort of notable about the discussion about
    the use of force is that that is not the policy of the United
    States. The policy is to pursue humanitarian, economic,
    diplomatic paths forward to try to support the Venezuelan
    people's desire for democracy. When we say all options are on
    the table, that is because all options are always on the table.
    That is not the preferred route and that is not the route we
    are going down.
        Mr. Reschenthaler. Thank you, Mr. Abrams.
        Mr. Olive, what is the best way for the U.S. to support
    Venezuela's democratic opposition? Is the United States ready
    to assist the organization with free and fair elections?
        Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman, for your question.
        And absolutely. Your body has provided now $15 million in
    Fiscal Year 2018, and a portion of that can go to ensure that
    an electoral process is fair and transparent. And we will work
    alongside our State colleagues on whatever assistance may be
    needed, but it will have to be requested, and, as the Special
    Representative said, Venezuelan-led.
        Mr. Reschenthaler. If we do have a future democratic
    government in Venezuela, are we ready to engage in assisting
    the new free nation, such as nation-building?
        Mr. Olive. We are looking at different scenarios. Again, it
    has got to be Venezuelan-led. They will determine their
    priorities. They are part of our hemisphere. We stand ready to
    assist. But the most important thing is to get the government
    and the power back in the hands of the Venezuelan people.
        Mr. Reschenthaler. Thank you, Mr. Olive.
        And I yield back the remainder of my time.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you. Mr. Castro.
        Mr. Castro. Thank you, Chairman.
        I have in the past supported sanctions against the Maduro
    regime because, as Mr. Meeks mentioned, I do believe in many
    ways that Mr. Maduro has oppressed his people. At the same
    time, I believe that the role of the United States is to
    promote democracy, freedom, and human rights around the world.
    The role of the United States is not to handpick the next
    leader of Venezuela.
        Mr. Abrams, I have a question for you. My question is
    whether you are aware of any transfers of weapons or defense
    equipment by the U.S. Government to groups in Venezuela opposed
    to Nicolas Maduro since you were appointed Special
    Representative for Venezuela.
        Mr. Abrams. No.
        Mr. Castro. And I want to be respectful of you, but also
    honest. The reason that I ask that question, there has been a
    McClatchy news report of such an incident. Are you aware of
    that news report?
        Mr. Abrams. Saw the report, yes.
        Mr. Castro. I ask this question because you have a record
    of such actions. In Nicaragua, you were involved in the effort
    to overtly provide lethal aid to the Contras against the will
    of Congress. You ultimately pled guilty to two counts of
    withholding information from Congress in regard to your
    testimony during the Iran-Contra scandal. So, I ask you the
    question, can we trust your testimony today?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, you can make that decision for yourself,
    Mr. Castro. I can tell you that the answer to your question is
    no. It is a simple and unequivocal no. There has been no such
    transfer of arms.
        Mr. Castro. I also want to ask you--I mentioned the
    promotion of democracy and the fact that the Venezuelan people
    have to pick their own leader--what is the administration's
    strategy for encouraging elections as soon as possible in
    Venezuela?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, that is the heart really of
    administration policy. That is, after the Maduro regime, a
    short transition to an election, and that is the view of all of
    the 51 nations that are supporting Mr. Guaido.
        I completely agree with the way you started. It is not for
    us to choose the next President of Venezuela. It is for
    Venezuelans. We can help, as a lot of other countries can help,
    in facilitating a free election, because, as you know, there is
    a lot of experience, the National Democratic Institute, the
    International Republican Institute, Freedom House. And
    equivalents in other countries are really quite good at giving
    assistance.
        Mr. Castro. Also, I know that you have spoken about the
    fact or you mentioned that all options are on the table. And in
    a private setting, we had a conversation about that, which I
    will not get into. But I want to reiterate one point and one of
    the reasons that I disagree with that approach. The reason that
    I disagree with the statement and the approach is because I
    believe that it gives license to countries like China and
    Russia to, then, further engage with Venezuela and do it in the
    name of protecting Venezuela sovereignty by drumming up the
    idea that the United States is going to invade the Nation of
    Venezuela. I strategically think that it was a bad statement.
        With that, I yield back.
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Engel. Thank you.
        The Chair will remind all persons in the audience that any
    manifestation of approval or disapproval of proceedings is in
    violation of the rules of the House and its committees.
        Mr. Burchett.
        Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I guess the good thing, or the bad thing about being a
    freshman is all the good questions already get asked, but I
    still have a couple that have not been asked.
        I think it has been established that Cupara.ta, the
    Cupara.tan regime is in line with Maduro. How would you
    recommend that we could separate that?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not think that lectures to the Cupara.tans
    are going to have much impact. I think, in fact, that is going
    to happen when there is a freely elected democratic government,
    and Venezuela will just send them home.
        Mr. Burchett. I agree with you. Thank you.
        Could you all followup just a little bit more detail on the
    Russian influence in Venezuela and what you would recommend
    that the United States would do to limit that influence? We
    talk a lot about sanctions and all that, but, I mean, honestly,
    that is sort of like my momma saying, ``I'm going to tell your
    dad,'' and then, dad would say, ``I'm going to tell your
    momma.'' And then, you know, kids, they shriek in horror, but,
    in reality, they just go off and giggle a little bit.
        Mr. Abrams. Well, there have been some conversations with
    the Russians, and I am sure there will be more, but I cannot
    say they have done any good thus far. Again, it is partly a
    matter of just seeing Venezuela move to a freely elected
    democratic government, which can then make independent
    decisions about the relationships it wants to have.
        For example, when sanctions come off, they will not need to
    turn to Russia to say, ``How do we deal with these
    sanctions?'', through Rosneft or through Russian banks or
    anything like that. The Russians I think, at this point are not
    putting any more money into Venezuela because they are worried
    about getting paid back the money they have already put in. And
    once there is a freely elected government that can deal, again,
    with the World Bank and the IMF, and a broad international
    program and support, I think the Russian role will diminish
    very quickly.
        Ms. Oudkirk. And, Mr. Congressman, if I can add onto that,
    if we look at Russian involvement in the hydrocarbon sector,
    one of the reasons why this administration made a decision to
    license the continuing involvement of U.S. companies----
        Mr. Burchett. Right. Can I ask you a question? I already
    know what hydrocarbons means, but Mr. Pence does not. Could you
    explain that to him?
        Ms. Oudkirk. Oil and gas.
        Mr. Burchett. OK. Thank you.
        Ms. Oudkirk. And so, one of the reasons why we licensed the
    continued involvement of U.S. companies in upstream oil
    production in Venezuela was because the oil and gas sector is
    the key pillar of the Venezuelan economy, and it will be going
    forward. And keeping the U.S. corporate presence there, with
    their best practices, with their adherence to all the sorts of
    practices that we expect here in the United States, is, we
    believe, one of the best ways to ensure that in the future
    Venezuela is able to return to prosperity and sort of an
    economy that functions normally.
        Mr. Burchett. Where we have seen that they have
    nationalized these industries, we have seen the prices, in
    fact, spiral upwards, is that correct? Not artificially, but
    legitimately?
        Ms. Oudkirk. It depends really, but I think what we are
    focused on here, we are looking at an oil sector that is in
    profound crisis, and the general economic crisis in Venezuela
    exacerbates that. The trained staff are voting with their feet.
    They are going to other countries. Key equipment is being
    stripped of copper wire, so electricity cannot be transmitted.
    So, it is all knitted together, but we do believe that Western
    involvement in the upstream oil sector will leave us positioned
    to have both the U.S. private sector and the U.S. Government
    assist with eventual economic recovery. And we are a
    counterweight to the Russian and the Chinese investment, which
    is otherwise very prevalent in that industry.
        Mr. Burchett. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield the remainder of my time.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you.
        Ms. Titus.
        Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        President Trump seems averse to international cooperation
    and multilateral agreements. He seems to prefer go-it-alone,
    shoot-from-the-hip, mano-a-mano type of diplomacy, such as it
    exists. But some of us believe that, if we are going to be
    successful in helping Venezuela survive and recover through
    political means, not military means, and through humanitarian
    assistance, we are going to need to work with the Lima Group
    and with OAS. So, I would ask you, Mr. Abrams, do not you think
    that your role on the National Security Council in the George
    W. Bush Administration during the 2002 Carmona coup in
    Venezuela hurts your credibility with Latin American countries
    and makes it difficult, if not impossible, for you to serve now
    as a Special Representative of Venezuela, to foster these kind
    of agreements?
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Engel. Excuse me. The gentlewoman will suspend.
        Mr. Abrams. No.
        Chairman Engel. The Chair will remind all persons in the
    audience that any manifestation of approval or disapproval of
    the proceedings is in violation of the rules of the House and
    its committees. So, I please ask the audience to cooperate or
    else we will have to have people removed, which I would not
    like to do.
        Go ahead and respond.
        Mr. Abrams. My answer is no.
        Ms. Titus. And you do not think that your appointment sends
    the wrong message to our allies in Latin America?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, I have been in contact with an awful lot
    of them. I have talked to a lot of people on the phone in the
    last couple of weeks. I have met with a bunch of foreign
    ministers in the last couple of weeks. These have been very
    good meetings and we are all cooperating because we all want
    the same thing in Venezuela, which is democracy.
        Ms. Titus. Well, I hope so, too, but I think your ``no''
    puts you in the minority.
        I will go from there to a broader question. What happens if
    Maduro is ousted? Will he, then, go to Russia or to Cuba, or
    will we have a truth commission? Will he be imprisoned? What
    about these corrupt oligarchs we have heard about? What about
    the heads of the military? And what is going to be the U.S.'s
    position at that point? Would some of you comment on that?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, I would say, first, these are, for the
    most part, Venezuelan decisions. They are decisions that a new
    democratic government is going to have to make. The decision on
    where Maduro goes is for Maduro. Does he want to go to Cuba or
    Russia or someplace else?
        But, you know, there have been a lot of democratic
    transitions in the world, happily, in the last few decades.
    Each one is a different case. They have to make these decisions
    internally about how much do they want to do in prosecuting
    people. Do they want to have amnesties? And, you know, the
    National Assembly has already passed an amnesty bill. These are
    not our decisions. We are not Venezuelans.
        Ms. Titus. I appreciate that, but we often hear about some
    subversive activity that encourages one kind of approach or
    another. And I suspect that would be the case again, too.
        Comment about what we do after the fact, once Maduro goes?
        Mr. Olive. Yes. From the development standpoint, we are
    prepared to help the new government in its priorities of
    rebuilding the country. USAID's assistance is very public. We
    will use our normal mechanisms that we have done in other
    countries, and we will be transparent and happy to share any
    information that we have, when we reach that day where we are
    having plans and we have responded to a request from the
    government.
        Ms. Titus. We have heard a lot about the security folks
    from Cuba. What about the teachers and the doctors that came
    from Cuba to Venezuela? Will we be able to work with them after
    the fact?
        Mr. Abrams. My guess would be that many of them will be
    withdrawn. They are sent there, in large part, as a political
    message of solidarity with Maduro. So, after Maduro--again,
    that is a decision for the Venezuelans to make, not for us.
        Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you, Ms. Titus. Mr. Pence.
        Mr. Pence. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        To all the witnesses today, thank you for your time.
        As a Marine, I am proud when America plays a leadership
    role with our allies and partners in support of democratic
    principles and the rights of free people in Venezuela and
    around the world. As Americans, there is no higher calling in
    our diplomatic endeavors than to stand with free people against
    tyranny.
        I want to focus on how United States leadership has help
    build a coalition of support for the Venezuelan people. Over 40
    countries have now recognized Juan Guaido as the Interim
    President of Venezuela, a number that has effectively doubled
    in recent weeks. I am proud that the United States was among
    the first to stand alongside Interim President Guaidod
    the Venezuelan people.
        I also believe that it is important to provide support to
    Venezuela's neighbors like Colombia, who are generously hosting
    millions of Venezuelans fleeing the country and the crisis.
        Mr. Olive and Mr. Abrams, Mr. Abrams, you Stated more than
    3 million Venezuelans, more than 10 percent of Venezuela's
    population has been forced to flee their country to survive.
    You also mentioned today in your testimony, and I quote,
    ``Maduro cannot weather much longer.'' My question is, how
    concerned are you about the effects of this on neighboring
    countries and what are the implications of this on the larger
    region?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, I can begin the answer. There is a steady
    outflow. That 3 million, or it may even be 3.6 million, grows
    every day. And if the regime stays in power throughout this
    year, it can reach 5 million. So, we will be hearing a lot more
    from Brazil and Peru, and especially Colombia, about the need
    for help in dealing with continuing massive outflows of
    Venezuelans. This will stop only if there is a democratic turn
    in Venezuela and a beginning of economic recovery.
        Mr. Olive. Congressman Pence, thank you for your question.
        We have been in constant contact, especially with the
    Colombian government, on these issues and it is supportive of
    them. Administrator Green is meeting with President Duque
    tomorrow to have this very conversation. One part of it will be
    how can we continue to assist Colombians todeal with the amount
    of Venezuelans migrating into Colombia at this time. We are
    concerned about it and are prepared to go shoulder to shoulder
    with Colombians.
        Mr. Pence. Is there any concern that the blockade is going
    to attract even more people faster with the humanitarian
    supplies sitting across the border?
        Mr. Abrams. I think it is a concern, and it is one of the
    reasons why we all want to get the aid in. Venezuelans need it
    very, very badly.
        Mr. Olive. When Administrator Green and I were there in
    July, it was clear that they were saying, and we saw it
    firsthand, that 90 percent of the Venezuelans that were coming
    into Colombia to get support were going back into Venezuela.
    So, they were just coming in to be able to get the vaccines or
    health care or food or generate some income to be able to go
    back into the country. And we expect that to continue until
    when we are allowed to bring in our humanitarian assistance
    into the country in a safe and efficient manner, in a manner
    that we can monitor where it goes and make sure that it gets to
    the people who are in need of it most.
        Mr. Pence. Thank you. I just want to say I am proud that
    President Trump and Secretary Pompeo continue to speak with
    clarity and provide the leadership our values require on the
    situation in Venezuela.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you.
        Mr. Espaillat.
        Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I think that we can say today that probably all, if not
    most, of the members of this committee are really concerned
    with the violence in Venezuela, the humanitarian crisis in
    Venezuela affecting thousands of families that has led to an
    unprecedented migration of Venezuelans throughout the region.
    And, of course, the presence of Hezbollah there as well. I,
    myself, have cosponsored legislation to address that particular
    problem.
        But, Mr. Abrams, many of our allies have expressed concern
    of your appointment to deal with this problem. Some have
    characterized it as being perhaps like appointing Exxon to lead
    a discussion on the Green New Deal or maybe even appointing MBS
    to lead a discussion on fairness in journalism and
    accessibility to journalism.
        Do you feel that your past actions in Iran-Contra have
    permanently impaired your ability to fairly and transparently
    deal in the region, since we all know the outcome of what
    happened then? Do you feel that that is a major problem,
    baggage that you bring to the table?
        Mr. Abrams. I do not, and now I have been doing this job
    for two whole weeks. And I can tell you that Members of
    Congress have raised it. No Latin American of any nationality
    with whom I have dealt has raised it. And we have had lots and
    lots of discussions about how we are going to promote democracy
    in Venezuela.
        I guess I should say, since I have been attacked now three
    times, in my own defense, if you look at the Reagan record of 8
    years, when we came in, there were military dictatorships all
    over Latin America.
        Mr. Espaillat. Mr. Abrams, that is not an attack. That is a
    fact of history.
        Mr. Abrams. And when we left in country after country after
    country there had been transitions that we supported. Chile is
    a very good example. So, I think it is actually a record of
    promoting democracy, and I think a lot of Latin Americans know
    the----
        Mr. Espaillat. Respectfully, I differ with you. I think it
    is a fact of history. We should not dig our heads in the sand
    and make believe that this never happened because it did. And
    you were at the helm of that and you----
        Mr. Abrams. I was at the helm of promoting democracy in
    Latin America.
        Mr. Espaillat. Well, you may want to characterize it that
    way, but I do not. I think you were involved in the Iran-Contra
    deal, and I think that permanently damages you to be a fair and
    impartial arbiter in a conflict that is leading to a
    humanitarian crisis of unprecedented levels in Venezuela.
        So, I want to get to my next question, which is, do you
    believe that there could be a peaceful, diplomatic solution to
    this crisis? And if so, has our Nation engaged the Vatican, the
    United Nation, Mexico, and Uruguay in their efforts to resolve
    this peacefully without any bloodshed?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, we have had discussions with the Vatican,
    with the U.N. I spoke to the Secretary General actually
    yesterday morning. Mexico and Uruguay are somewhat different
    because they have a different approach, which is the kind of
    dialog with Maduro that has been tried and failed in past
    years, tried by the Venezuelans who are pushing for democracy
    in their own country.
        Mr. Espaillat. And the opposition has in some instances
    asked to be armed. Do you feel that that is a viable for
    protecting themselves or do you feel that arming the opposition
    will lead to a civil war?
        Mr. Abrams. I think it is a terrible idea. I think that the
    question of security for the opposition--well, it is not really
    the opposition. It is now, in our view, the legitimate
    government of Venezuela and the National Assembly. Security for
    them, security for individuals like Interim President Guaido is
    a real issue, but the solution to it is replacing this
    government with the interim government, and then, allowing the
    people of Venezuela to choose their government.
        Mr. Espaillat. Finally, do you feel that there are
    currently any individuals in the armed forces or in government
    that are applicable to receive Magnitsky Act levels of
    sanctions and options?
        Mr. Abrams. Yes, I think there are.
        Mr. Espaillat. And are you willing to share those----
        Mr. Abrams. Not in a public hearing. I think we need to go
    over the names again. But, certainly, some of the people rise
    to that level of human rights violations.
        Mr. Espaillat. Mr. Chairman, let me just, again, reiterate
    my concern for a potential human crisis emerging in the region,
    potential civil war, famine, if we do not go the diplomatic way
    and abandon our old, bad ways of Iran-Contra.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you.
        Mr. Guest.
        Mr. Guest. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Abrams, in your written testimony you talk about that
    Cuba has provided direct support for Maduro repressive tactics,
    including the recent deployment of its most feared units, the
    Black Wasp. Can you kind of expand upon this military unit and
    what they are doing in the country of Venezuela?
        Mr. Abrams. We have seen Maduro reinforcing his Cuban guard
    corps. Again, it is a lack of confidence in his own people or
    it is a knowledge that his own people want him gone. So, there
    were Cubans. There are Cubans surrounding him. That is the
    palace guard. This special forces unit has now come in. This is
    in the last few weeks. And I think it is really quite striking
    that he does not trust the Venezuelan people or the Venezuelan
    armed forces.
        Mr. Guest. And so, the Cubans have sent special forces
    units into Venezuela to prop up this regime?
        Mr. Abrams. That is correct.
        Mr. Guest. And then, since January the 23d, we have seen a
    host of nations join us in our ability to affect change in the
    Nation of Venezuela. Actually, one of the nations that has yet
    to take a position one way or the other--and you touched on it
    very briefly a moment ago--was Mexico. And again, can you kind
    of talk about why they have failed to take a position one way
    or another on this particular important matter?
        Mr. Abrams. They are quite isolated in Latin America, you
    are right, when you look at the other larger democracies. I
    think I would say it is just the ideology. It is an old view on
    the part of their President that this is all about American
    interventionism. And when we say, well, it isn't; you have got
    51 countries, including most of the major democracies in Latin
    America, plus Canada, saying this, this isn't about the United
    States and Venezuela. We have not been able to persuade them,
    at least to this point.
        Mr. Guest. And you also talk about in your written
    testimony that Maduro and his cronies are conspiring to prevent
    lifesaving assistance from reaching the people of Venezuela.
    Can you expand on that just briefly as well?
        Mr. Abrams. Yes. Well, perhaps Mr. Olive could do so as
    well. But what we are seeing visibly in the blocking of that
    bridge is a policy on the part of the Maduro regime. And Maduro
    himself has said, ``We do not need humanitarian assistance.''
    He is completely blind to the suffering of the Venezuelan
    people.
        Mr. Guest. And you also talked about in your written
    testimony that they have also canceled gasoline shipments, so
    that you would be unable to transport humanitarian aid. Is that
    correct?
        Mr. Abrams. Do you want to comment on that? I have not seen
    that exact report.
        Mr. Olive. We have not seen it as a major concern now. If
    we have full access to being able to get things into the
    country, we will overcome that, whatever fuel shortages there
    may be.
        Mr. Guest. And so, we currently have, for lack of a better
    term, a dictator who is refusing humanitarian aid and a country
    of great crisis, and has also aligned himself with the Cuban
    government, to the point that there are Cuban special forces
    currently in Venezuela at this time. Is that correct?
        Mr. Abrams. That is correct.
        Mr. Guest. I would yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you.
        Ms. Omar.
        Ms. Omar. Thank you, Chairman.
        Thank you all for being here and thank you for your
    testimoneys.
        Mr. Abrams, in 1991, you pleaded guilty to two counts of
    withholding information from Congress regarding your
    involvement in the Iran-Contra affair, for which you were later
    pardoned by President George H.W. Bush. I fail to understand
    why members of this committee or the American people should
    find any testimony that you give today to be truthful.
        Mr. Abrams. If I could respond to that----
        Ms. Omar. It was not a question.
        Mr. Abrams. I----
        Ms. Omar. That was not, that was not a question.
        Mr. Abrams. I would----
        Ms. Omar. I reserve the right to my time.
        Mr. Abrams. It is not right----
        Ms. Omar. That was not a question.
        Mr. Abrams [continuing]. That members of this committee can
    attack a witness who is not permitted----
        Ms. Omar. On February 8th----
        Mr. Abrams [continuing]. To reply.
        Ms. Omar. That was not a question. Thank you for your
    participation.
        On February 8th, 1982, you testified before the Senate
    Foreign Relations Committee about U.S. policy in El Salvador.
    In that hearing, you dismissed as communist propaganda report
    about the massacre of El Mozote in which more than 800
    civilians, including children as young as 2 years old, were
    brutally murdered by U.S.-trained troops. During that massacre,
    some of those troops bragged about raping a 12-year-old girl
    before they killed them, girls before they killed them. You
    later said that the U.S. policy in El Salvador was a ``fabulous
    achievement''. Yes or no, do you still think so?
        Mr. Abrams. From the day that President Duarte was elected
    in a free election to this day, El Salvador has been a
    democracy. That is a fabulous achievement.
        Ms. Omar. Yes or no, do you think that massacre was a
    ``fabulous achievement'' that happened under our watch?
        Mr. Abrams. That is a ridiculous question, and I----
        Ms. Omar. Yes or no?
        Mr. Abrams. No.
        Ms. Omar. I will----
        Mr. Abrams. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman.
        Ms. Omar [continuing]. Take that as a yes.
        Mr. Abrams. I am not going to respond to that kind of
    personal attack, which is not a question.
        Ms. Omar. Yes or no, would you support an armed faction
    within Venezuela that engages in war crimes, crimes against
    humanity, or genocide, if you believed they were serving U.S.
    interest, as you did in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua?
        Mr. Abrams. I am not going to respond to that question. I
    am sorry. I do not think this entire line of questioning is
    meant to be real questions. And so, I will not reply.
        Ms. Omar. Whether under your watch a genocide will take
    place and you will look the other way because American
    interests were being upheld is a fair question, because the
    American people want to know that anytime we engage a country
    that we think about what our actions could be and how we
    believe our values are being furthered. That is my question.
    Will you make sure that human rights are not violated and that
    we uphold international and human rights?
        Mr. Abrams. I suppose there is a question in there, and the
    answer is that the entire thrust of American policy in
    Venezuela is to support the Venezuelan people's effort to
    restore democracy to their country. That is our policy.
        Ms. Omar. I do not think anybody disputes that. The
    question I had for you is that, does the interest of the United
    States include protecting human rights and include protecting
    people against genocide?
        Mr. Abrams. That is always the position of the United
    States.
        Ms. Omar. Thank you. I yield back my time.
        Chairman Engel. Mr. Watkins.
        Mr. Watkins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        My questions are for Mr. Abrams. Sir, it is well known that
    members of Maduro regime have ties to drug trafficking. Now we
    are hearing allegations of ties with terrorist organizations,
    including Hezbollah and FARC. Can you walk me through the
    nature of those ties and what kind of concern that poses to the
    U.S. security?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, some of this I guess we should do in a
    closed hearing. But the group that stands out most is the ELN,
    the Colombian terrorist group that is harbored in Venezuela.
    They have not just escaped into Venezuela. I mean, that is
    government policy on the part of the Maduro regime. They also
    have, obviously, extremely close ties to Cuba. There is a
    Hezbollah presence all over Latin America, and I believe they
    are engaged in fundraising in Venezuela, and the regime does
    nothing to prevent that. So, these are security concerns that
    are going to exist as along as this group is in power.
        Mr. Watkins. Thank you.
        Is there concerns about the safety and security of U.S.
    diplomats and contractors, and do you know of any steps being
    taken to assure that they are safe?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, there are a lot of Americans in
    Venezuela. The number of official Americans is small, but there
    are a lot of American citizens who live there. Unfortunately,
    we have very limited ability to protect them. We do supply some
    consular services. Every couple of days, we may give out an
    emergency passport to an American. But the staff size is
    limited and our ability to protect people is limited. And so,
    we rely on the regime, actually, which controls the guns to
    make sure that no harm comes to Americans. And we have made it
    clear that that is their responsibility under international
    law.
        Mr. Watkins. Thank you, Mr. Abrams.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairman Engel. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Levin.
        Mr. Levin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thanks to the witnesses for coming today.
        First, I would like to followup on the chairman's questions
    about temporary protected status, where we began. Mr. Abrams,
    do you think it is fair to call the humanitarian situation in
    Venezuela dire, given the Venezuelan people's need for basics
    like nutritious food and medical supplies?
        Mr. Abrams. Yes.
        Mr. Levin. I understand, as you mentioned to him, that you
    are discussing designating Venezuela for TPS with others in the
    administration, given that dire situation. While you were
    Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights and Humanitarian
    Affairs a generation ago, we might say----
        Mr. Abrams. A generation or two.
        Mr. Levin [continuing]. You testified at a hearing before
    the House Judiciary Committee that concerned TPS for
    Salvadorans. At that hearing, you testified, and I quote,
    ``Some groups argue that illegal aliens who are sent back to El
    Salvador there meet persecution and often death. Obviously, we
    do not believe these claims, or we would not deport these
    people.'' End quote. Is that correct?
        Mr. Abrams. I take your word for it. You know, it has been
    a while.
        Mr. Levin. Yes, I understand. That was at a hearing before
    the Subcommittee on Immigration, Refugees, and International
    Law of the committee, on a bill numbered H.R. 4477, Temporary
    Suspension of Deportation of Certain Aliens., on April 12th,
    1984.
        And is it correct that, when you testified at that hearing
    in 1984, death squads controlled by the Salvadoran government,
    which had the backing of the United States, were committing
    horrific acts of violence against the Salvadoran people? I do
    not have a lot of time. Were they or were they not, sir?
        Mr. Abrams. The death squads were certainly active,
    although I cannot remember the exact years, but the amount of
    death squad activity came down under President Duarte and under
    American pressure.
        Mr. Levin. Well, just to remind you, as The Atlantic
    pointed out, more than 75,000 Salvadorans were killed in the
    fighting, most of them--most of them--victims of the military
    and its death squads, more than 75,000. ``Peasants were shot en
    masse, often while trying to flee. Students and union leaders
    had their thumbs tied behind their backs before being shot in
    the head, their bodies left on roadsides as a warning to
    others.''
        I would just ask, sir, you, of all people, to use your
    offices to try to help promote TPS for Venezuelans in need.
        Mr. Olive, let me ask you a question. I am the son of an
    official of USAID. So, I also appreciate the work of you and
    your colleagues there.
        It is my understanding that sanctions on the Venezuelan
    State-owned oil company that the Trump administration imposed
    last month are meant to cutoff Maduro's cashflow and force his
    exit. What I want to know is, what is the administration's plan
    if this approach does not work? The Wall Street Journal
    reported last month, quote, ``If the standoff endures, the U.S.
    move could prove devastating for Venezuela's economy which
    relies on oil exports for 95 percent of its hard currency
    income.'' End quote. Which obviously isn't a great thing.
        But my question to you is, what does the Trump
    administration plan to do if these new sanctions squeeze the
    Venezuelan economy, but Maduro remains? Have you examined what
    will happen to the Venezuelan people?
        Mr. Olive. First, Congressman, thank you for your kind
    words to my colleagues. I will take that back to them. Thank
    you.
        Mr. Levin. Thank you.
        Mr. Olive. Most of this, I would defer to the State
    Department. But, from a humanitarian assistance point of view,
    we do see many of these resources that were coming into the
    Maduro regime were not getting to the people, and the ones that
    were were used as a tool, such as their CLAP program, et
    cetera. We do expect the situation to get worse, and that is
    why we are prepositioning goods right now on the border, ready
    to go into Venezuela. And we are prepared to do much more when
    we have access where we can securely and efficiently monitor
    its distribution, and that is what we are prepared to do.
        For the remainder of your question, I will defer to the
    State Department.
        Mr. Abrams. No, I agree with that.
        Mr. Levin. All right. Well, we are very concerned about
    deepening the crisis that we are trying to prevent.
        Let me, finally, Mr. Chairman, just end by I noted, and I
    really appreciate the bipartisanship here, a number of our
    friends on the other side of the aisle have called Venezuela
    ``the most violent country in the world'' and ``the most
    dangerous country in the world,'' things like this. I do not
    understand that, if you look at Afghanistan, Syria, Libya,
    Mali, Somalia, Yemen, and South Sudan. I just hope that we
    stick to the facts here. The situation is bad enough as it is.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Mr. Sires [presiding]. Thank you.
        We now recognize Steve Chabot from Ohio.
        Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Olive, what is the State of press freedoms in
    Venezuela, and how are we countering the regime's propaganda
    and ensuring that Venezuelans are aware of the support that the
    U.S. and the international community are providing?
        Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman, for your question.
        We are providing supporting for independent media. We are
    now up to, with the approval of the congressional notification
    that has now expired, and we can now use our 2018 funding. We
    have spent about approximately $40 million, or that are
    available for--one of the areas is independent media.
        The groups that we are working with, Freedom House, the
    International Republican Institute, the National Democratic
    Institute, NDI, and others, are working to preserve an
    independent media within the country.
        They are very challenged. They have been threatened, and
    some have been arrested, et cetera. Some of their operations
    have been disruptive.
        Administrator Green, on two occasions, one in Washington in
    December, one in July in Miami, met with Venezuelan diasporas
    who raised this issue. And he said, we are a lifeline to many
    of those independent journalists and media, and we will do
    everything we can to remain so.
        Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much.
        And my final question would be for Mr. Abrams as well as
    Ms. Oudkirk. What role do energy and oil continue to play in
    the Maduro regime's ability to maintain the loyalty of
    countries in the region? And, Mr. Abrams, I will begin with
    you.
        Mr. Abrams. I think it is very important. I mean, the only
    real asset that they have got is money that comes from oil
    sales and the oil itself. We have seen that most in the
    Caribbean, where they have been involved in an awful lot of
    activities that have produced a political result. And you can
    see that, actually, in some of the OAS votes, where,
    unfortunately, some democracies in the Caribbean have not
    joined this group of 51 countries around the world in
    supporting Interim President .
        Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much.
        Ms. Oudkirk, would you like to add anything to that?
        Ms. Oudkirk. Yes, Congressman Chabot. The Petrocaribe
    program, which is, I think, what you are referring to, has
    largely wound down, with the exception of sort of concessional
    oil sales or oil deliveries to Cuba.
        However, as Special Representative Abrams noted, there are
    a variety of countries in the Caribbean and Central America who
    have a large sort of debt overhang with PDVSA. And this is
    really a problem. The coercive use of energy sales, whether we
    see it here in the Western Hemisphere or farther afield, is a
    real challenge. And I think the key here is that, as the
    sanctions bite on PDVSA, their ability to use, to take the oil
    proceeds themselves and use them directly as money is going to
    be largely cutoff.
        The United States used to, prior to the sanctions, import
    about 40 percent of Venezuela's oil exports, but we paid about
    75 percent of oil receipts because so much of the other oil
    went for debt-for-oil swaps with China and Russia. So, cutting
    off that financial flow is really a key focus of the sanctions.
    And then, separately, really working with these vulnerable
    economies and jurisdictions close to Venezuela to figure out a
    way for them to extricate themselves from a dependence3 on
    PDVSA is a crucial piece of work that we have in front of us
    going forward.
        Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much. In the interest of members
    making votes, I will yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Sires. Thank you, Mr. Chabot.
        We will now recess. Votes have been called. I will urge all
    the members to please come back after the three votes that we
    have. Thank you very much. Just be a little patient.
        [Recess.]
        Mr. Sires. The hearing will come to order.
        Mr. Malinowski.
        Mr. Malinowski. There we go. My voice carries, but that is
    better.
        Let me just start out by saying that, in my view, what we
    are dealing with here is an anti-democratic coup, a slow-motion
    anti-democratic coup that was carried out by the Maduro regime,
    a regime that packed its supreme court with loyalists, that
    tried to render null and void a Congress that was elected by
    the vast majority of the Venezuelan people, that imprisoned and
    tortured Venezuelan citizens who exercised their human right to
    protest against these outrages, that prevented the opposition
    from fielding a candidate against the leader of this regime.
        This is not a left or right issue. This is not an issue
    that should divide us on ideological grounds. If any of us in
    the United States, whether we are liberal or conservative,
    progressive, whatever, experienced that in our country, we
    would be on the streets screaming about it, just as the vast
    majority of Venezuelans are doing.
        And because of that, I am a critic of much of the
    administration's foreign policy, as you guys will not be
    surprised to hear, but I feel like in the case of Venezuela
    this is a policy that, broadly speaking, I can support, and I
    certainly pray for its success, given what has been happening
    to the Venezuelan people.
        I know a number of the issues have been raised already.
    But, with that foundation, I do want to ask Mr. Abrams a
    handful of questions that relate Venezuela to our overall
    approach to the world.
        I think you know, Mr. Abrams, based on your work over many,
    many years, that the one argument that dictators like Maduro
    and Putin and others throw at us all of the time, when we try
    to do the right thing, as I think we are trying to do here, is
    that we are inconsistent, that we aim our democracy and human
    rights policies at our adversaries, or at our ideological
    adversaries, not our friends. Sometimes that is an unfair
    charge; sometimes it is more fair. But I wonder if, as a
    general matter, you would agree that we need to strive, where
    possible, for moral consistency.
        Mr. Abrams. I do agree. I think it is impossible to achieve
    in the end for any administration because----
        Mr. Malinowski. Try for.
        Mr. Abrams [continuing]. We are balancing so many American
    interests. But it is something we are striving for.
        Mr. Malinowski. Would you, then, agree, as a general
    matter--and I know, I am sensitive to the fact you are here
    representing the administration's Venezuela policies; you
    cannot necessarily speak for everything else--but, as a general
    matter, would you agree that, if we are going to be condemning
    a president who is trying to attain absolute power for life,
    contrary to constitutions and the democratic process in
    Venezuela, that we should do so in other countries, such as
    Egypt, when similar situations arise, as a general matter?
        Mr. Abrams. I really should not respond beyond the question
    of Venezuela. It is really not my remit at the Department and
    not while I am up here. You and I go back a ways, and you know
    that my view is, generally, that the United States should be
    supporting the expansion of democracy all over the world.
        Mr. Malinowski. Thank you.
        Would you agree that, if we are going to be condemning
    socialism and effects on the people of Venezuela, that we
    should be condemning even more strongly communism in North
    Korea, rather than talking about how the economy of that
    country might be about to explode in a positive direction?
        Mr. Abrams. I think the human rights record in North Korea
    is pretty well known, but I really in this hearing cannot go
    very far down that path.
        Mr. Malinowski. OK.
        Mr. Abrams. It is just not my responsibility.
        Mr. Malinowski. And would you agree that, if we are going
    to be asking countries to help the millions of Venezuelans who
    are fleeing their country, to take in refugees for the time
    period necessary to give them protection, that we, as a
    country, should also maintain our tradition of keeping our
    doors open to refugees fleeing persecution around the world, as
    a general matter?
        Mr. Abrams. As a general matter, yes. And Venezuelans who
    feel that they would be in danger by going home should apply
    for, and are eligible for, asylum here.
        Mr. Malinowski. Thank you. Again, I would note that the
    refugee numbers have made it difficult to meet the demand from
    Venezuelans and from people fleeing repression and war all over
    the world.
        Thank you so much, Mr. Abrams.
        Mr. Sires. Thank you.
        Congressman Rooney.
        Mr. Rooney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I would like to, first, thank Secretary Abrams for coming
    here and speaking so candidly and clearly, and bringing the
    great depth and length of his experience in Central America and
    South America to bear on our problems that we face together.
        Mr. Abrams. Thank you.
        Mr. Rooney. The question I have is one that apparently was
    not asked earlier. It is about the political transition and
    Maduro's threatening to hold these early elections, and how big
    a threat would they be to the legitimate National Assembly's
    continuing efforts to institutionalize itself?
        Mr. Abrams. They would be a threat. I think as we saw last
    year in the May 2018 elections, any elections that Maduro funds
    are not going to be credible elections. There needs to be a
    free and fair Presidential election in Venezuela, but it is not
    going to happen if it is under Maduro's control.
        Mr. Rooney. Thank you.
        Mr. Sires. I have a question. The continued outflow of
    Venezuelans outside of Venezuela, how much of a destabilizing
    factor would that have in the region if it continues at the
    rate that it is going now, which is 5,000 a day going into----
        Mr. Abrams. About 5,000 a day net leaving. It will place an
    even larger burden on the countries that are already feeling
    this, and Colombia, of course, most of all. Peru has about
    700,000 Venezuelans, I believe. So, the impact on their health
    system, for example, is very great now, and you are increasing
    this, potentially, by about 60 percent.
        Perhaps Mr. Olive would add a comment?
        Mr. Olive. Yes, we are very concerned about that.
    Administrator Green is meeting with President Duque of Colombia
    tomorrow, and that is going to be one of the topics discussed.
    The Colombians have expressed a great interest that their
    medical systems, schools, and social services are being
    overwhelmed not just in the border area, but throughout the
    country, and are concerned that, if they cannot continue to
    provide those services to their citizens, that it will disable
    or destabilize the country potentially. And that goes for
    Caribbean countries like Trinidad and Tobago as well.
        Mr. Sires. In a meeting earlier that we had with the
    President Duque, he said that they already have 400 cases of
    measles that they have been able to track.
        At this time, I would like to recognize Congresswoman
    Mucarsel-Powell from Florida.
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so
    much for allowing me to participate in this hearing today.
        And, Mr. Elliott Abrams, Sandra Oudkirk, thank you for
    being here today, and thank you, sir, for coming.
        This is an extremely important issue for me personally. I
    am the first South American Representative ever to be elected
    to Congress. So, I bring that perspective to these discussions.
    I have visited that country many times. I have very close
    friends that have had to flee this oppressive narco-regime,
    which is what we all call it. And I have some family members
    that are still in Venezuela.
        So, it is something that I have been very outspoken about
    for many years, and this has been escalating for the past 15
    years. And I am glad that we are now finally having these
    conversations. I just hope that this is the beginning of
    several others that we will have, so that we can do everything
    in our power from the United States to help the people of
    Venezuela.
        So, my first question, one of the things that I have been
    focusing on is humanitarian aid. So, that is why I have been
    working on this humanitarian aid bill.
        And I wanted to ask Mr. Abrams, how much has actually been
    delivered in the humanitarian aid that we have seen, that you
    started with with the first 20 million? Do you have details on
    how much has actually already been delivered?
        Mr. Abrams. I am going, if you will permit, turn to Mr.
    Olive.
        Mr. Olive. Of that new 20 million that Secretary Pompeo
    announced, we have used that money to preposition goods
    currently in Colombia, and we are also looking at other
    neighboring countries and other parts of the Colombia. That is
    how we have spent it so far.
        In terms of getting goods in the country, we have not been
    able to do much. With the money that comes to our Latin
    American and Caribbean bureau, which was $9 million in 2017 and
    will be $15 million with 2018 funds, we have built the capacity
    of civil society organizations and tested their ability to
    distribute humanitarian assistance. But it is very small. The
    security of those partners is very much of a concern of ours.
    So, we have had to keep it more low profile at this point.
        And then, the only other assistance that is getting into
    the country is what Administrator Green and I saw when we were
    there in Cucuta in July, and that is the Venezuelans crossing
    over the border, getting the medical services or vaccines or
    food, or things that they need in Colombia, and then, going
    back in.
        But that is all we have been able to do so far. We really
    need Maduro to allow this assistance that we are building up on
    the border into the country and distributed correctly.
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. And are we working very closely with
    the United Nations and some of their members in providing this
    aid?
        Mr. Olive. Yes, we are in constant conversation with them.
    At the moment, they have some restrictions as well, which I
    think Special Representative Abrams can go into. But we are
    having those discussions and being transparent on what our
    plans are.
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. OK. Great.
        I also wanted to ask you, Mr. Abrams, Cuba, as we have
    discussed before, has clearly been a major contributor to
    Maduro's illegitimate regime. And they have been providing
    support on a number of fronts, including military personnel. I
    would like to get a little bit more detail on what you can tell
    us about the Cuban officers that are on the ground in Venezuela
    at this time. And also, why have not we sanctioned these people
    who are helping prop up Maduro and his illegitimate regime?
        Mr. Abrams. There are thousands of Cuban, let's call them,
    security and intelligence people on the ground. They form a
    kind of palace guard around Maduro. As I noted before, what it
    suggest is he does not trust Venezuelans. He does not trust the
    Venezuelan military. So, he brings in Cubans to surround him
    and provide security. They also spy on members of the
    Venezuelan military. They also police the Venezuelan military.
    So, that is what he uses them for, because he sees, I think,
    his own support among all Venezuelans, including in the
    military, crumbling.
        Now sanctioning them, you know, many of them are, if you
    will, just security officers in the ranks whose identities we
    do not even know. We have sanctioned high-level people in the
    Maduro regime. We continue to do that, civilian and military.
    And we will continue to do that. We have announced some
    expansions this week for the constituent assembly and the
    supreme court, the TSJ.
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. OK. I am running out of time, but I
    have one very important question. One of the discussions that I
    have heard from some colleagues here on the floor is that they
    are concerned that the sanctions that we are imposing to PDVSA
    are going to hurt the Venezuelan people. And I want to make it
    very clear that I am in full support of these sanctions to
    PDVSA.
        But I wanted to ask, what is the administration's plan,
    should these sanctions begin to affect and, indeed, exacerbate
    the humanitarian crisis for the people that are living right
    now in the country?
        Mr. Abrams. Let me just say, this horrendous humanitarian
    situation in Venezuela that we have all been talking about
    existed 2 weeks ago, before there were sanctions on PDVSA. So,
    they have not used those billions of dollars in income to help
    the Venezuelan people to buy food, to buy medicine for them. In
    that sense, we know that this funding stream that we have tried
    to cutoff does not go to the Venezuelan people.
        Mr. Olive. And, Congresswoman, that is exactly why, when
    Interim President Guaido called Administrator Green, even
    though he realized that he may need future assistance on
    electoral processes, civil society, and independent journalism,
    et cetera, he said the No. 1 need is humanitarian assistance,
    and he asked that it be prepositioned and ready to get in the
    country. We do not have that access yet, but we work daily on
    trying to get that.
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Sires. Congresswoman Shalala.
        Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. That is why my focus has been the
    humanitarian aid.
        Thank you, Chairman, for allowing me to participate.
        Ms. Shalala. Thank you, Chairman, for allowing me to
    participate as well.
        And I want to add that I absolutely support the other
    members of the south Florida delegation. It is a huge issue for
    us in south Florida. And I hope you hear in our voices
    bipartisan support for most of what you are doing.
        I have a quick question to followup on the humanitarian
    aid. And that is, aid to Colombia, because so many of the
    Venezuelans have gone over the border, and possibly to Brazil,
    but I think Colombia, in particular, is feeling the need for
    humanitarian aid.
        Mr. Olive. Yes, the U.S. Government has provided $140
    million for neighboring countries and, in particular, Colombia,
    which $97 million of that USAID has administered. Administrator
    Green is meeting tomorrow with President Duque of Colombia to
    talk precisely of recalibrating where we are, what support have
    we been able to provide, what more is needed, and have those
    kinds of discussions, because those impacts have been severe on
    neighboring countries, Brazil, Colombia, Peru, Equador, and
    Trinidad, Tobago.
        Ms. Shalala. Thank you very much.
        And, Mr. Abrams, I am going to keep asking you the same
    question about TPS. And I want to reinforce what my
    colleagues--for those of us, in your testimony you talked about
    how more than 10 percent of Venezuela's population has been
    forced to flee their country. As you know, many of them have
    come to south Florida, to Debbie's district, to my district, to
    Mario Diaz-Balart's district, to Debbie Wasserman Schultz's
    district. And we are very concerned.
        And I want to reiterate to the administration, we have
    introduced bipartisan legislation to extend TPS to Venezuelans.
    I am well aware that the administration is trying to take away
    TPS designations for so many people in my community, and I want
    to be supportive of them, but also to emphasize adding TPS for
    Venezuelans.
        Mr. Abrams. Well, thank you. This is, obviously, a very
    important question. It is one I have discussed with Secretary
    Pompeo, and I will take it back and let him know of your views.
        Ms. Shalala. Thank you.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Sires. Congresswoman Spanberger.
        Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much.
        Thank you to our witnesses who are here today.
        And, Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity today for
    asking questions.
        My colleagues have highlighted our collective and serious
    concerns about the use of military force, potential use of U.S.
    military force in Venezuela. And even in hearing caution, we
    have heard Admiral Stavridis talk about limited and well-
    intentioned intervention for humanitarian purposes, saying that
    a military response would ``foment rage in the region and
    internationally''. I am in complete agreement that a military
    solution, particularly on the part of the U.S., is not answer.
        But I do have a couple of questions about what we might
    anticipate from other countries. To your knowledge, are there
    any other countries who are contemplating direct involvement,
    such as Russia or China? We have seen Russia come to the aid of
    autocratic leaders elsewhere in the world. Do you see any
    indication that Moscow may consider something similar,
    deployment of advisors or military forces to Venezuela? And I
    will open that up to all of the witnesses.
        Mr. Abrams. We did see some Russian bombers, if I recall
    correctly, fly to Venezuela, which was a Russian display of--I
    do not know--support for the regime, I guess you would say. But
    they have not put armed personnel on the ground the way they
    have in some other countries.
        Ms. Spanberger. OK. And Russia has been known to at times
    use hybrid warfare and transnational criminal organizations to
    further some of their objectives and obscure their direct role
    in doing so. Do we have any indication that this may be
    happening in Venezuela or any concerns that it may happen on
    the horizon?
        Mr. Abrams. Well, it is always a concern, and they have an
    investment in this regime literally in financial terms, but,
    obviously, in political terms as well. And they have been
    defending it. They made a very strident appearance in the
    Security Council, for example, on January 25th, when Secretary
    Pompeo was there, a lot of cold war rhetoric really. But it is
    a very interesting question as to how far they would actually
    go. And we ask ourselves that question all the time.
        Ms. Spanberger. Any additional? OK. And then, another
    question on this same line of questioning. To your knowledge,
    what is the role of the colectivos or the armed civilian
    militias? Are they receiving, to your knowledge, any external
    support, training, or weapons? And if so, do you know where
    that is coming from or how the U.S. and our partners in the
    region might be able to prevent such support and use of such
    support?
        Mr. Abrams. I am not aware of foreign support for the
    colectivos. It is clear that they work for the regime, and the
    regime in some cases has armed them. And they are kind of an
    auxiliary to the normal, legitimate, if you will, security
    forces. But the regime has the means, unfortunately, to
    organize and arm them. I have not seen evidence of a
    relationship between the colectivos and foreign powers.
        Ms. Spanberger. And for Ms. Oudkirk I have a question about
    the sanctions and potential impact of the sanctions. We are
    well aware of the fact that for many years Venezuela has been
    able to invest heavily and in some cases buy the loyalty of
    Caribbean States through the sale of its crude oil. And some of
    these Petrocaribe States have supported actions of the
    Organization of American States to put diplomatic pressure on
    Maduro, which has now led to him threatening economic
    retaliation.
        With concerns of the potential for destabilization or
    humanitarian crises in other parts of Latin America, my
    question is, do you expect any economic reverberations from
    Venezuela? And what is the administration doing to reduce the
    risk of economic damage potentially to these countries, many of
    whom, like Jamaica, for example, have also borrowed heavily
    from Venezuela in the past?
        Ms. Oudkirk. Thank you very much for your question,
    Congresswoman Spanberger.
        So, one of the things that we did to mitigate ancillary
    consequences on neighboring jurisdictions was OFAC issued
    General License 11, which gave a 60-day period to wind down
    U.S. person involvement in third-country interactions with
    PDVSA. So, this was designed to sort of smooth out the removal
    from the transaction chain of U.S. persons, so both individuals
    and companies. And we are looking on a sort of country-by-
    country, jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction basis at the involvement
    of PDVSA in these various basically small countries and
    islands, and figuring out what it is that needs to be done
    during that 60-day period to ensure that the focus of this
    sanction's impact remains on PDVSA, not on these small markets.
        Ms. Spanberger. OK. Thank you. I yield back.
        Mr. Sires. Thank you.
        I want to thank the witnesses for being here and for your
    patience, and the members who attended today's hearing.
        With that, the hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 2:35 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]

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