[Senate Hearing 115-583]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 115-583
NOMINATIONS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
NOVEMBER 28, 2018
__________
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COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION
SECOND SESSION
ROY BLUNT, Missouri, Chairman
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California
PAT ROBERTS, Kansas CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York
RICHARD SHELBY, Alabama RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
TED CRUZ, Texas TOM UDALL, New Mexico
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia MARK R. WARNER, Virginia
ROGER WICKER, Mississippi PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont
DEB FISCHER, Nebraska ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
Fitzhugh Elder IV, Staff Director
Elizabeth Peluso, Democratic Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Pages
Opening Statement of:
Hon. Roy Blunt, Chairman, a U.S. Senator from the State of
Missouri....................................................... 1
Hon. Amy Klobuchar, a U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota... 4
Statement of Donald L. Palmer, to be Commissioner of the Election
Assistance Commission.......................................... 2
Statement of Benjamin W. Hovland, to be Commissioner of the
Election Assistance Commission................................. 6
Prepared Statements of:
Hon. Charles E. Schumer, Chairman, a U.S. Senator from the State
of New York.................................................... 18
Donald L. Palmer, to be Commissioner of the Election Assistance
Commission..................................................... 19
Benjamin W. Hovland, to be Commissioner of the Election
Assistance Commission.......................................... 24
Questions Submitted for the Record:
Hon. Amy Klobuchar, a U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota to
Mr. Donald Palmer.............................................. 26
Hon. Mark Warner, a U.S. Senator from the State of Virginia to
Mr. Donald Palmer.............................................. 29
Hon. Mark Warner, a U.S. Senator from the State of Virginia to
Mr. Benjamin Hovland........................................... 33
NOMINATIONS
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WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 2018
United States Senate,
Committee on Rules and Administration,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:50 p.m., in
Room SR-301, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Roy Blunt,
Chairman of the committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Blunt, Klobuchar, Wicker, Fischer, King,
and Cortez Masto.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HONORABLE ROY BLUNT, CHAIRMAN, A U.S.
SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MISSOURI
Chairman Blunt. The meeting will come to order and I
apologize for being tied up in an earlier event. I'm glad my
colleagues have joined us and our witnesses are here today.
Shortly, we'll hear from both of the nominees to serve as
members of the Election Assistance Commission, congratulate
both of you on your nomination.
This Commission was authorized by the Help America Vote
Act. I have wondered, frankly, in recent years if there was a
real role for the Commission but as I've told both of you, I
think that the events of the last couple of years indicate that
the Election Assistance Commission in many ways is likely to be
more important right now and in the future than it's been up
until now.
I think it is the logical nexus for local election
officials and state election officials--and I did both of those
jobs in my career as the Secretary of State of Missouri and as
a local election official, as well--but to have that point of
contact, whether it leads to the homeland security and the
discussions about assistance in cyber vulnerabilities or
whether it leads to a discussion about the kind of equipment
that's needed and what information may be available for that
equipment. We're lucky to have both of you here for this
hearing.
Senator Klobuchar will be here in a moment, but let me
first introduce--I'm going to let Senator Klobuchar introduce
Mr. Palmer because they've had a strong working relationship as
Mr. Palmer's had with this committee and we might have
eventually introduce--I might eventually introduce you, as
well, Mr. Palmer.
But before I do that, let me introduce--so why don't I
introduce you, Mr. Palmer and then we'll let you make your
opening remarks and then we'll let Senator Klobuchar, when she
gets here, introduce our other nominee.
President Trump nominated Donald Palmer earlier this summer
to fill the term of former Commissioner Matt Masterson. That
term will expire in December 2011.
If confirmed, Mr. Palmer would bring a broad range of
election experience to the Election Assistance Commission. From
2011 to 2014, Mr. Palmer served as the Secretary of the
Virginia State Board of Elections. He was also the Director of
Elections for the Florida Department of State from 2008 until
2011, which appears to be the period that Florida didn't have
any crisis in their election system, so that window is pretty
good.
Prior to his work for those two state governments, Mr.
Palmer was an attorney with the Voting Section of the U.S.
Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division, where he enforced
Federal voting and civil rights laws.
In addition, Mr. Palmer is a military veteran, retiring
from the U.S. Navy after serving two decades as an intelligence
officer and judge advocate general.
Mr. Palmer, you'll be the first to testify this afternoon.
Before you begin your remarks, I'd like to recognize the
family members that are with you today. Your wife Laura and
your son Benjamin are over here backing you up and we are glad
that you're here to join us.
Mr. Palmer, why don't you go ahead and make your opening
statement?
OPENING STATEMENT OF DONALD L. PALMER, TO BE COMMISSION OF THE
ELECTION ASSISTANCE COMMISSION
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Chairman Blunt, and Ranking Member
Senator Klobuchar, for scheduling this hearing.
I would like to thank the Speaker of the House, the
Representative Paul Ryan, for placing my name forward as his
choice for the Election Assistance Commission.
I would also like to thank the President of the United
States for my nomination.
I'm honored to be considered for this position and to again
serve the Nation's voters.
If confirmed, my goal as a commissioner would be to leave
the United States electoral system stronger and more secure for
the next generation of Americans, to assist state and local
election officials, to upgrade our voting process with new
technologies and meet the expectations of voters.
I'll also work to ensure that our voting equipment is more
accurate and more usable for voters, that our voting equipment
and voter registration systems are more secure in defending
against threats of any kind from any source, and that our
voting equipment is more accessible to voters with disabilities
and for our rapidly aging population.
Additionally, I will focus on assisting state and local
election officials in the challenges that they will inevitably
face in the next decade.
In my career of public service, I've been guided not just
by the oath to defend the Constitution but the belief that the
administration of free and fair elections is a sacred duty in
and of itself.
One must always remember that the exercise of democracy is
temporarily entrusted in your hands for a length of time and
that you are responsible for it.
As Ronald Reagan said, ``Freedom is never more than one
generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our
children through the bloodstream. It must be fought for,
protected, and handed on to them to do the same.''
For our republic to work, our citizens must believe that
the will of the people will be exercised with elections, that
the government derives its power from the consent of the
governed, and that the vote was free and fair and that both the
winner and the loser of an election can objectively say who was
the actual winner of the election.
As a Navy intelligence officer and JAG, my commitment was
to defend our way of life, including the ability for Americans
to exercise their right to vote. Similarly, at the Department
of Justice, Voting Section, I took a similar oath to defend the
rights, the voting rights of all Americans, regardless of their
color, ethnicity, and economic status, and to ensure all
Americans were able to vote.
There, I defended the rights of Americans to vote under the
Voting Rights Act and worked to protect the rights of the
military and overseas voters and language minorities where I
investigate election practices, monitored polling places across
the country, and represented the United States in Federal court
to ensure that the voting rules established by this Congress
were followed.
I've worked with states closely to assist election
officials in complying with the National Voter Registration Act
and the Help America Vote Act, to improve the integrity of our
electoral system, maintain the accuracy of our voter
registration rolls, and to facilitate private and independent
voting by voters with disabilities.
As a state election administrator in two states, I managed
Presidential elections in those battleground states, including
Presidential primaries, special elections, midterm elections,
gubernatorial races, and a statewide recount in Virginia for
Attorney General.
My goal has always been and will continue to be to ensure
uniformity, fairness, accuracy, and purity in all elections.
During my time in office, over 20 million voters
successfully cast ballots by mail, early voting, and on
election day, and local election officials in those states
overcame all types of challenges, hurricanes, floodings,
snowstorms, and earthquakes, to successfully administer the
elections on behalf of all of its citizens. They deserve a lot
of credit.
I see new technology as a way to improve the voting
experience for voters. I have worked closely with the Virginia
General Assembly in the passage and implementation of online
voter registration and registration data-sharing, both
initiatives that became future recommendations of the
Presidential Commission on Election Administration created by
President Obama.
More recently, I've worked with the bipartisan Policy
Center to advance consensus recommendations and worked closely
with states and localities across the country to collect data
at the precinct level in an effort to reduce long lines of
voters and make the voting process more efficient.
Working with colleagues on both sides of the aisle, we
highlighted the current voting technology crisis in America and
encouraged states and localities to provide additional
resources to upgrade our electoral infrastructure.
As a former intelligence officer at the end of the cold
war, I remain vigilant to the threats this Nation faces from
its foes, particularly the Russians, and am dedicated to
working closely with our Federal partners to make sure states
and localities have the information and the means to defend
their systems from intrusion.
The EAC will have an opportunity to continue the process of
developing new voluntary voting system standards with state and
local election officials, NIST, and other stakeholders.
Together, we can provide increased security, usability, and
accessibility to American voters for future elections.
The EAC will need to find better ways to communicate with
the American people on the state of the electoral process in
this country. While the EAC does not have as large a voice as
some, in order to set the record straight, we need to educate
voters to better distinguish facts from myths and to improve
overall public confidence on the security, fairness, and
integrity of our electoral system.
I would like to thank the local election officials and
staff in both Virginia and Florida for their dedication and
commitment to administering elections and all the efforts that
you have made to ensure elections free and fair. It's made my
second career as fulfilling as the first.
I'd also like to thank my wife, my parents, and my children
for making my life equally as fulfilling and showing patience
with me as I follow my dreams.
Thank you, sir.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Palmer was submitted for the
record.]
Chairman Blunt. Thank you, Mr. Palmer.
Mr. Hovland, it's good to see you here this afternoon, and
I guess you're looking at this dais from this side for the
first time. You've looked at it from back here backing us up a
number of times.
I want to recognize Senator Klobuchar to formally introduce
you and your family.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HONORABLE AMY KLOBUCHAR, A UNITED STATES
SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA
Senator Klobuchar. Well, thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and
I was a little late at another event. I just want to thank you
all for being here.
I will just briefly say how important it is to have the
United States Election Assistance Commission fully staffed.
As we look back at the midterms, I think we know that we
need a strong fully functioning Commission now more than ever.
We must make voting easier. We know the consequences of old
voting equipment that we saw across the country, long lines,
confusion, and sometimes disenfranchisement.
Last month, we saw a number of instances where old machines
malfunctioned, poll books failed, and voters did not understand
how to use certain voting equipment, creating long delays.
These are avoidable problems.
I'm happy to say that the numbers are in today and
Minnesota once again had the highest voter turnout in the
Nation. I think I've a little credibility when I talk about
this and some of it is that we have same-day registration, but
we've just worked really hard to create a culture of voting and
accessibility to voting.
That's why I congratulate both of you and look forward to
this hearing, but it is my honor to introduce Mr. Hovland.
Ben has been a valued, valued member of the Rules Committee
staff, working with me and working with Senator Schumer. He has
nearly two decades of experience with elections at both the
State and Federal level and he'll bring important expertise to
the Commission.
He also has strong relationships with election officials
across the country that will truly be an asset, if he's
confirmed, because of his direct work with this committee.
Ben has spent his career making it easier for people to
vote. Prior to his work on the committee, he served as Senior
Counsel at the Fair Elections Legal Network, which worked with
election officials in Colorado, Michigan, Nevada, and New
Mexico to improve access to the polls and to make registering
to vote easier.
From 2008 to 2011, Ben served as Deputy General Counsel in
the Missouri Secretary of State's Office. In this role, he
focused on legal issues related to the administration of State
and Federal elections, including ballot initiatives, poll
worker training, voter education, and voter registration.
At a time when we're facing unprecedented attacks on our
election infrastructure from other countries, it is vital that
we have a fully functioning EAC led by commissioners who
understand the nature of the threats against our democracy.
I would also add that Ben is a proud husband and a dad and
one of the reasons we know he's qualified for this position is
that through two opening statements and through Mr. Palmer's
opening statements, these children have been really quiet and
it's very, very impressive.
We see right there Henry, who has some kind of item in his
hands. Henry, age one, and Harper, age three and a half. His
wife, Ben's wife Kelly, want to raise your hand there, Kelly,
coaches women's golf at the U.S. Naval Academy and is the proud
mom of Harper and Henry, and we're glad that Kelly's family,
her mom Janet, there she is, and sisters Abby and Katie, thank
you, you're all in this, very good, could travel from Illinois
and Louisiana to be here today.
Finally, Ben joined the committee when Senator Schumer was
Ranking Member and Senator Schumer has provided a statement for
the record in support of Ben's nomination.
I ask that that be included, Mr. Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Senator Schumer was submitted
for the record.]
Senator Klobuchar. I'd like to point out that in Senator
Schumer's statement, he notes Ben's dedication to making voting
easier and more secure but also makes mention of Ben's
commitment to barbecue. In fact, he is an internationally
licensed judge of barbecue with the Kansas City Barbecue
Society. Now if that's not a plea for your vote, Senator Blunt,
I really I don't know what it is.
Chairman Blunt. It just gets better and better.
Senator Klobuchar. I just can't come up with anything else.
That's it.
But I was so proud to keep Ben on with the Rules Committee
when I took over from Senator Schumer here. He's done a great
job with us and the whole staff. I speak for them, as well.
We're so pleased about your nomination.
Thank you.
You want to go ahead? Okay.
OPENING STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN W. HOVLAND, TO BE COMMISSIONER OF
THE ELECTION ASSISTANCE COMMISSION
Mr. Hovland. Good afternoon, Chairman Blunt, Ranking Member
Klobuchar, and Members of the committee.
Thank you for holding this hearing on my nomination to
serve on the United States Election Assistance Commission or
EAC.
I also want to thank Senator Schumer for submitting my name
to the President for consideration and to thank the President
for nominating me.
I'd also like to thank Senator Klobuchar for that great
introduction and introducing my family. Also somewhat
appropriately, Kelly and I met at the Secretary of State's
Office, so I owe way more to election administration than most
people.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hovland. I'd also like to thank my mother Barbara. Her
health didn't allow her to be here today, unfortunately, but I
know she's proud to be watching the webcast, and I would like
to thank my mother-in-law Janet and my sisters-in-law Katie and
Abby who did travel a long way to be here, and I'd also like to
thank a number of my friends who are able to join us here
today.
It's an honor to be considered for this position and to
testify regarding my qualifications and interest in serving as
an EAC commissioner.
As you know, the EAC's mission is to help election
officials improve the administration of elections and to help
Americans exercise their right to vote. I've dedicated my
career to these same goals.
Following law school, I worked at the Missouri Secretary of
State's Office. While there, I was involved in the Secretary's
efforts to increase access to the polls and improve the voting
experience for Missourians.
During that time, I was fortunate to learn a great deal
about election administration from my coworkers and election
officials both in Missouri and from around the country.
My time at the Missouri Secretary of State's Office also
inspired me to start volunteering as a poll worker, a service I
enjoy and have continued to do whenever possible. In addition
to greeting and assisting my neighbors as they exercise their
right to vote, the experience of serving as a poll worker has
provided helpful perspective on the amazing work that goes into
administering our elections and the difficulties some eligible
Americans face while trying to vote.
Following my time at the Missouri Secretary of State's
Office, I moved to Washington, DC, and began working with the
non partisan advocacy group to improve election administration
and voter access around the country. This experience helped me
to understand the many benefits and challenges of each of the
50 states administering elections in a unique way.
Then for the last 5 years, I've had the privilege to work
at the United States Senate for this committee. Working for the
Rules Committee has provided an incredible opportunity to learn
more about this great institution and the importance of looking
for bipartisan solutions.
Additionally, like many others who work in the election
field, I've learned far more about election cyber security in
the past 2 years than I ever anticipated.
While the need to improve election cyber security
continues, the 2018 election reminded us of the more
traditional challenges of election administration, such as long
lines, voting machine breakdowns, poll worker issues, ballot
design, and the need for contingency plans.
The combined result is that being an election official is a
difficult, often thankless job that does not end on election
day. I believe we can and should do more to assist the
officials that run our elections.
The Election Assistance Commission was created to help
election officials across the country with the challenges they
face.
If confirmed, I am committed to working on common sense
good government solutions that fulfill the Commission's mission
to assist election officials and help Americans vote.
Members of the committee, I thank you for your
consideration of my nomination and I'll be happy to answer any
questions that you may have.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hovland was submitted for
the record.]
Chairman Blunt. Thank you, Ben and Donald.
I'm glad you're both here. As I said, I think the
Commission is going to in some way redefine itself because of
the renewed focus on how important it is that people have
confidence in this process and in the way we pursue the
process.
I want to thank Senator King for coming first and waiting
the longest.
Do you want to start with some questions, Angus?
Senator King. I'd like to, if you wouldn't mind, Mr.
Chairman. Thank you.
Gentlemen, thank you both for being here and for sharing
your wisdom and experience, which I'm sure you will, on the
Commission.
Mr. Palmer, you used the term ``sacred duty.'' That's what
our elections are. They're really at the heart of the system
and I often think the Judicial Code of Ethics talks about how a
judge should avoid not only impropriety but the appearance of
impropriety, and I think that's so important in terms of
elections.
People have to have confidence and they have to be sure
that the system is working and respecting their votes.
It's also a difficult process because it's a big
complicated undertaking. I liken it to a small business that
does all their sales on one day. You work for months and months
and except for the absentees, it's all in that crunch at the
junior high school at 8 o'clock on a Tuesday morning in
November. So it's a complex process.
Just a couple of questions. It seems to me, and both of you
can respond to this, that one of the most important
responsibilities you have in this job is gaining and holding
the confidence and trust of the election officials because our
elections are essentially run by the states and localities.
I notice I've never seen the word ``voluntary'' used so
often as it is in this context. It's a reassurance of the
states, but speak to me about how we can effectively help them
provide guidance and resources and at the same time alleviate
any fears of a Federal takeover of elections.
Mr. Palmer, you want to take a crack at that?
Mr. Palmer. Sure. Thank you, Senator King.
I will approach the job as a commissioner very similar to
the way I approached as a state election official because in
the end, elections are run at the local level.
Senator King. Right.
Mr. Palmer So sitting as a chief election official or a
director, you have some authority under law but generally you
are working as a leader and as a teammate of the local election
officials, so you are training, you are providing guidance, and
you're doing that as a team.
Similarly, at the EAC, our job is to assist and to assist
local election officials with best practices, sort of
highlighting things that have worked in other states, data that
can be provided to local election officials.
In the end, the EAC over the years has gained that trust
with state and local election officials.
Senator King. Is that the case?
Mr. Palmer. I believe it is. I believe it is. They gained
my trust and I think they gained the trust of many state and
local election officials and it takes years to do that. It
takes building--I mean, it's about relationships and about the
fact that we know we're in this together and that we understand
that elections are run at the local level and that we're here
to assist, not to mandate how they're supposed to do things,
because there's so many different ways of voting and
registration and just methods of how we do things across the
country.
Senator King. Mr. Hovland, your thoughts on how do you help
without raising the hackles of the Secretary of State of Maine?
Mr. Hovland. Thank you, Senator.
Senator King. If you have that problem, let me know. I can
deal with him.
Mr. Hovland. I will definitely do that.
You know, again, I think that so much of this depends on
just having a dialog and being able to have a conversation.
As Mr. Palmer pointed out, you know, the Election
Assistance Commission is there to help and with the nature of
how our elections are run, as I mentioned earlier, 50 different
ways or probably more than that but each state running its own
elections in its own way, what we can really do is have a
dialog where we find out what it is that election officials
need assistance with and then we can use the Federal resources
that have been given to the Commission to try to identify those
and find solutions that are helpful and whether that's from
experts or from their colleagues, you know, best practices are
only good if people implement them, and so again I think a big
part of it is just having those conversations.
Senator King. Well, I think that maintaining that level of
confidence is so important because the whole enterprise won't
succeed unless the recipients of the assistance are willing to
accept it.
Mr. Palmer, this isn't strictly related to your position,
but I think you have so much experience in this area. I notice
you testified to the Advisory Commission on Election Integrity.
Is voter fraud a significant problem in this country?
Mr. Palmer. Senator, from a micro level, fraud does exist.
The debate over whether or not it's widespread or it happens in
certain situations is really a false debate, in my opinion.
As election administrators, we're concerned--when there's a
close race or when candidates come to us, they don't ask us was
it a little bit of fraud or a lot of fraud. They want to have
clean and pure elections.
Under the Constitution of Virginia, for example, that's my
oath. Our goal's always to try to minimize the amount of voter
fraud or irregularities or mistakes that can occur and leave
the law enforcement to the Attorney General or the local law
enforcement agencies to prosecute voter fraud.
Senator King. Mr. Hovland, do you have any views on that
question?
Mr. Hovland. You know, I think, like Don said, there are
rare instances, I think, where I focused more of my career is
on trying to identify why more people aren't voting or what
barriers there are that are keeping people from participating,
and I certainly think that there are a number of those and we
can do a much better job of helping people participate.
Senator King. I think that's an issue we need to pursue.
Madam Ranking Member, I think Maine is second to Minnesota
in voting percentage and I think it has to do with states with
large numbers of lakes, maybe.
Senator Klobuchar. Or maybe when it gets so cold, they have
nothing else to do but to vote.
Senator King. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I
apologize. I have to go to another commission meeting now, but
I appreciate your indulgence.
Chairman Blunt. Well, thank you. Thank you for putting in
your time and getting here on time and having the patience to
wait for us, and this is an important hearing.
As I said, I think twice now, it's going to be a more
important Commission than I think it has been in the past. I
think the new focus on how we vote and who gets to vote and
when they get to vote and, frankly, I'd like to see a new focus
on when the votes are counted.
Again, you're advisory on these issues, as well, but in
these states where you have 40 percent of the votes cast before
election day and you decide that you're not going to count
those before election day and you're going to--it's just
amazing to me as someone who always thought that having the
result but also having the result in the most timely way was an
important part of what we do.
But you're going to provide a quorum. I'm committed to do
everything I can to see that you're both confirmed and you're
going to provide a quorum. There have been voluntary standards
out there since 2015 but they haven't been approved because
there was no quorum on the Election Assistance Commission.
First of all, you may want to very well look at the
voluntary standards. The new half of the Commission coming in
look at the voluntary standards with the two people currently
there and say, okay, what have we learned since 2015 before we
put these out.
But I think following up on a point that Mr. Palmer made,
you know, they are voluntary standards. The job of the Election
Assistance Commission is to give assistance, not to take over
the running of the elections but voluntary standards, model
systems, all of those things I think are more and more
important.
On those voluntary standards, I think in this committee and
Senator Klobuchar and I are both in agreement that some kind of
paper trail where the voter has a chance to see how they voted
and that vote is able to be looked at at a later date seems to
me to be the ultimate safeguard when people question what
happened on election day.
I think we have a handful of states now that don't require
a paper trail, but I'd like for both of you to talk about that
particular topic.
Let's start with you, Mr. Palmer.
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Senator.
While the debate over paper is important, the EAC, I
believe, certifies only equipment with a paper trail or a paper
ballot and like you said----
Chairman Blunt. But you can have equipment that is
certified by the EAC, right?
Mr. Palmer. Exactly. Yes, sir.
Chairman Blunt. Okay.
Mr. Palmer. In my experience in both Florida and Virginia,
particularly in Florida, we transitioned away from DREs to a
paper optical scan in 2008 in a Presidential year.
In Virginia, our legislature had banned DREs but had not
provided funding----
Chairman Blunt. The DRE is what?
Mr. Palmer. Direct Recorded Electronic Machine. It's an
electronic voting machine.
Chairman Blunt. Where you see what you've done as a voter
but there's no----
Mr. Palmer. It's not necessarily a paper trail but
sometimes there is.
The General Assembly banned DREs, future purchase of, but
did not provide funding to the localities to transition to
paper and so this has been an ongoing issue in the election
community for over a decade as the community slowly transitions
to paper digital scan. A lot of it is a resource issue,
Senator.
Many localities simply did not have the resources to
transition to the new digital scan equipment. They waited and
they've continued to wait until those machines either did not
work and that's why many of us have been sort of discussing and
trying to convince localities and local election officials to
make that transition before their equipment just simply died or
was totally vulnerable to outside penetration.
That's a struggle that the states and localities have been
battling with over the last, you know, decade.
Chairman Blunt. The importance of some kind of ballot trail
in your view?
Mr. Hovland. I would echo a lot of what Mr. Palmer said
and, you know, agree that certainly I believe that paper is the
best practice. I think that's fairly well established with the
Commission's work, but as he highlighted, there are a number of
states that have made the decision not to go that route, again
largely for resource purposes, and so that seems to be more of
a legislative fix than one at the Commission, but I wouldn't
anticipate any changes in attitude toward paper or certainly
not against paper.
Chairman Blunt. I think there will be time for a second
round here. Let's go ahead and go to Senator Klobuchar and then
Senator Cortez Masto.
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much.
Just following up on Senator Blunt's questions and I
appreciated the help that he gave us to try to move the Secure
Elections Act that Senator Lankford and I were leading and
unfortunately we weren't able to get it done this time but
hopefully we can do it next year.
We did get 380 million out, as you're well aware, has
helped with that, Mr. Hovland, and do you think, as we look at
the paper ballot issue that Senator Blunt raised, do you think
that we should look at additional allocations in the future as
we head into the 2020 elections and the idea of tying this to
if states are going to take additional Federal election money
that they also do something about the paper ballots and
auditing?
Mr. Hovland. Thank you, Senator.
From the conversations I've had with election officials and
my experience in this space, I've found that resources are
always welcome.
I mentioned earlier that best practices are only as good if
people will implement them. Well, one of the reasons that
people often don't implement best practices is the lack of
resources and so I think if Congress was inclined to provide
additional funding, I'm fairly confident that that would be
welcome and I'm certain that it would be put to good use.
Senator Klobuchar. All right. For both of you, I'll start
with you, Mr. Palmer, what's your top priorities when you get
on to the Commission, if you get confirmed?
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Senator.
The top priority, I believe, is we do have voluntary voting
system guidelines that need to be reviewed by us, if we were
confirmed, and we need to be able to identify what those
accessibility features are, security features, and allow the
other commissioners, as well, to have input into those
standards. That would probably be the initial big ticket item
that we will face.
I have other----
Senator Klobuchar. Would you look at standards for voting
equipment and things in there?
Mr. Palmer. Yes, the voting system, those are for voting
equipment.
Senator Klobuchar. Very good. Thank you. Mr. Hovland.
Mr. Hovland. I would agree that the Voluntary Voting System
Guidelines 2.0 need to be finalized. Certainly that has been
something that has been waiting for and as I've talked to
election officials around the country and advocates, they have
expressed that that is certainly what they hope our top
priority will be.
Additionally, while I mentioned in my testimony that many
of the incidents that we saw in the 2018 election were more
traditional in nature, I don't think that we can forget about
the cyber security issue. I think the Commission did a
fantastic job following in 2017 helping--after the critical
infrastructure designation, the EAC really stepped up and
helped to stand up that subsector and I think continuing to
work there, recognizing DHS's or Homeland Security's expertise
around cyber security but also recognizing that they have a lot
of other jobs to do.
The Election Assistance Commission has one job. It works on
elections and so I certainly hope to work with them and work
with the Government and I believe former Commission Masterson
testified here about the whole of government approach and I
completely agree with that and hope to work on that at the
Commission.
Senator Klobuchar. Okay. One of the things that when
Senator Lankford and I were working on that bill, we did a lot
of work coordinating with the Secretary of States, some liked
us, some didn't, but we worked really hard to meet their
concerns on that bill and I think we're close to getting
something that was passable.
How about that? How do you think we could do a better job
in the Federal Government to work with local election
officials, either of you with your experience?
Mr. Hovland. I'll start. You know, again, I think that a
large part of it is what I mentioned earlier to Senator King. I
think it's having a dialog. I noticed that we have
representatives from NAST here today and through the process of
working on that legislation, I know there were a number of
conversations about priorities and again I think, Senator
Klobuchar, you were able to get a number of bipartisan
cosponsors and in my 5 years with the committee, there has not
been any legislation that had that many.
I think it's the right direction. I think----
Senator Klobuchar. Should I let Senator Schumer know that?
I'm kidding.
Mr. Hovland. But I think continuing to have those
conversations and iron out some of the small details.
Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Very good. Anything you want to
add? I know this was similar to what Senator King asked.
Mr. Palmer. Yes, Senator. The best approach is obviously
just the conversation, discussing, and trying to solicit what
would be the financial impact, what are the burden on their
local election officials.
Senator Klobuchar. I guess one other thing. I agree with
all that. One of the things we've found is like most of them
were okay and then a few disagree and we're going to have to
get to some point. What I'm worried is we won't, especially
with the House now next year.
There's not going to be any more money here unless we get
some agreement, that's just my guess, coming out of the House
on paper ballots and a few things, and we don't have to say
exactly what that bill will be, but I think a lot of our
members now feel that way.
Senator Lankford and I feel that way very strongly. I was
hoping that the EAC will be a bridge to that, will explain this
to them because a lot of them would agree and then a few of
them don't and they've got to understand we're serious about
it, I think, so just want to add that.
Mr. Palmer. Senator, I would just add that from a financial
perspective, again because elections are at the local level,
most of the expenditures are actually at the local level.
Senator Klobuchar. Oh, I know.
Mr. Palmer. When we have the same discussion, how much is
the state legislature going to fund localities, and believe me,
it's the same discussion at the local level that we have at the
Federal level and so usually a partnership of funding usually
is the best approach. There's a match of some sort.
Senator Klobuchar. Right. I guess we could have it. I mean,
what we're doing is we're not putting a mandatory requirement.
We're just saying if you want to get the Federal money, then
you're going to have to, you know, have backup papers and most
of the states do. It's 14 that don't.
Mr. Palmer. Well, for example, I believe the State of
Colorado received a HAVA grant from the Election Assistance
Commission to sort of explore post-election audits and they
used some of that funding for the preparation of that audit.
Senator Klobuchar. Right.
Mr. Palmer. That's an example of different ways to.
Senator Klobuchar. Exactly. All right. Thank you.
Chairman Blunt. Senator Cortez Masto.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
Gentlemen, welcome, congratulations on your nominations.
Congratulations to your families.
I want to stay on the topic of election security and
particularly in Nevada, I know many of our communities and our
counties are rural and there are many challenges in our rural
communities, one of them being a lack of resources,
particularly when it comes to the need for dedicated IT support
staff, as well.
I guess my question to you is, how should the EAC address
the unique challenges of election security faced by our rural
communities? What should we be thinking about? What should we
be focused on to help those rural communities when it comes to
election security, as well? I'll open it to both of you.
Mr. Palmer. Well, Senator, I think you nailed it on the
concern over rural--on to resource offices in really any state.
The cyber security protections at the state level are
fairly significant with the executive branch and Government as
a whole being, you know, they're focused on these issues, but
the big question is how do you support localities?
This is where the EAC could play, I think, a more
significant role in support of that in conjunction, working in
cooperation with DHS. The key is to help those localities have
enough IT support that they can be in a uniform place where the
state is comfortable that these IT offices are secure.
Senator Cortez Masto. Okay.
Mr. Hovland. I'd add that I think one of the great things
that the Commission can do is help to relay some of the best
practices that other states and localities are taking on.
Earlier this year, at a hearing at this committee, I know
Noah Prates from Cook County, Illinois, spoke very eloquently
about cyber navigators and there's been a lot of discussion
about individuals who maybe work for the state but are able to
assist a number of counties and we've seen that in other
jurisdictions and I would just highlight that as an example of
recognizing that there are a number of jurisdictions that don't
have the resources and likely don't have the population to
demand their own election IT expert but if they were pooled
together, they may be able to accomplish that.
Senator Cortez Masto. I appreciate that because I know just
as the Attorney General of Nevada, we represented the Secretary
of State's Office, but there was an election integrity task
force and so similarly there are best practices where you can
pool the resources of a state to help with our local
communities and I would assume that's something the EAC then
can adopt or at least highlight those models for other states
to look at, as well. Is that what you're saying?
Mr. Hovland. Yes. I think that's one of the great things
that the Commission can do with its clearinghouse function is
really highlight the excellent work that election officials are
doing around the country.
When we were talking about the $380 million earlier this
year or earlier in the conversation that was given out, I think
that one of the things the Commission is responsible for
auditing that but I also think it's important for the
Commission to highlight the great work that that's done because
taxpayers end up getting the most out of their dollars if other
jurisdictions see what their colleagues have done and adopt
similar practices.
Senator Cortez Masto. Yes. No, that makes sense to me.
The committee's been also discussing audits and I know, Mr.
Palmer, we had a conversation. Thank you for meeting with me in
my office. But we've also talked about, as those audits, the
risk-limiting audits and whether or not they should be used
more broadly across the country.
I'm curious for both of you. Can you describe your views on
the types of audits that are most effective and the process of
putting these audits in place and how we can work with our
localities, whether rural, urban, to ensure that we're
implementing the best practices when it comes to audits?
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. Maybe we start
with Mr. Palmer.
Mr. Palmer. Sure. Thank you, Senator.
Audits obviously is a best practice and from my experience
in Florida particularly, audits have been used to make sure the
equipment is working as designed and tabulating correctly and
so there have been sort of an evolution on how audits have been
done in Florida and other states have different types of audits
that may look at certain precincts.
The risk-limiting audit in the State of Colorado, it took a
number of years to get Colorado to the point where they could
do that risk-limiting audit.
Senator Cortez Masto. Is that the best practice, though? A
risk-limiting audit of all the audits, is that the best
practice for identifying?
Mr. Palmer. I'm not sure I would characterize it. It's
definitely the most sophisticated. It's the most sophisticated.
I'm sure there's an underlying rationale that I'll learn very
quickly as to why many believe that is the most sophisticated
way of doing it, but audits have been in place for a long time
and so as we determine what is the best practice, the EAC, for
example, has done a paper on this.
You know, many counties or states, they may have their own
indication of what they would like to implement as the result
of an audit.
Senator Cortez Masto. Okay.
Mr. Hovland. Thank you, Senator, for the question.
I think that when we think about audits and best practices,
I think the end goal is to be confident in the result and so I
would say the best practice for audits is what allows you to
get to that.
The Colorado model is obviously a great one, but their
risk-limiting audit, my understanding is it's a ballot
comparison audit and requires a certain system that allows you
to keep track of the order of the ballots.
You can also do a different type of risk-limiting audit, a
poll audit, and that is also successful, but I think at the end
of the day, because we have all of the states running their
elections in different ways with different equipment, the end
goal should be having that confidence in the outcome of the
election and doing the audit that you can do with the system
you have.
If your system doesn't have the capacity to audit, that is,
I would say, a larger problem.
Senator Cortez Masto. Okay. Thank you. I notice my time is
up.
Thank you very much.
Chairman Blunt. Thank both of you for being here.
Do either of you have anything you want to add that you'd
like to go on the record here?
[No response.]
Chairman Blunt. You know, I did see a lot of discussion
about whether or not elected officials should be the manager of
elections that they're involved in, which is, by the way,
almost always the case. If you're going to be the election
official for a county or the election official for a state, at
some point if you're elected, you're going to be involved in
one of those elections.
I understand some of the concern about that, but I've also
done both of those jobs and dealt with people over the years
that have done both of those jobs, and I think they take it
particularly seriously. It is their job. They're elected to do
it.
As Senator King said, it's like all of your efforts are to
make a product available and it's only available for 1 day and
you really want people to believe that you did the good job
you're going to do. I just would think we ought to be careful
about that discussion.
It's unlikely in your working careers on the Commission
States are going to rapidly change to some other structure that
they don't have and so you're going to be dealing with elected
officials. You're going to be dealing, as both of you have
pointed out, with states and localities that have their own
election laws and their own election systems. Usually even
within states, there are numerous election systems.
I think you're actually both very well prepared for that
and I think we're done with the hearing today.
Senator Klobuchar and I have talked about this. We've
agreed that the committee will meet on December 4th to consider
your nominations and hopefully report them out and on that same
meeting, we're going to mark up Senate Bill 1010, which is the
Register of Copyright Selection and Accountability Act, and the
record on this hearing will remain open until Monday, December
3rd, and again we'll meet on the next day to act on these
nominations.
[The information referred to was submitted for the record.]
The committee is adjourned and look forward to moving
forward with this.
[Whereupon, at 3:39 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
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