[Senate Hearing 115-868]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                      S. Hrg. 115-868

                      OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES
                WITH THE SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION'S
                      FEDERAL CONTRACTING PROGRAMS

=======================================================================

                             FIELD HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                          AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                                 of the

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                     ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             JUNE 29, 2018

                               __________

    Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
    
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    


        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
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                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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            COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                     ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

                              ----------                              
                    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho, Chairman
              BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland, Ranking Member
MARCO RUBIO, Florida                 MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
RAND PAUL, Kentucky                  JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota
JONI ERNST, Iowa                     EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma            CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
TODD YOUNG, Indiana                  CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming             MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota            TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
          Skiffington E. Holderness, Republican Staff Director
                 Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           Opening Statements

                                                                   Page

Risch, Hon. James E., Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Idaho........     1
Sullivan, Hon. Dan, a U.S. Senator from Alaska...................     3
Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, a U.S. Senator from Alaska.................   271

                               Witnesses
                                Panel 1

Wong, Mr. Robb, Associate Administrator, Office of Government 
  Contracting and Business Development, U.S. Small Business 
  Administration, Washington, DC.................................   206

                                Panel 2

Jokiel, Ms. Carrie, President, ChemTrack Alaska, Inc., Anchorage, 
  AK.............................................................   224
Kompkoff, Mr. Gabe, Chief Executive Officer, Chugach Alaska 
  Corporation, Anchorage, AK.....................................   232
Marrs, Mr. Carl, Chief Executive Officer, Old Harbor Native 
  Corporation, Anchorage, AK.....................................   240
Peterson, Mr. Richard, President, Central Council Tlingit Haida 
  Indian Tribes of Alaska, Juneau, AK............................   259
Miranda, Mr. Rolando, President, Miranda Electric, Inc., 
  Fairbanks, AK..................................................   264

          Alphabetical Listing and Appendix Material Submitted

Afognak Native Corporation
    Statement dated July 13, 2018................................   398
Bristol Bay Native Corporation
    Letter dated July 13, 2018...................................   404
Goldbelt
    Issues Affecting Federal Contracting for Alaskan Native 
      Contractors dated June 2018................................   407
    Goldbelt, A History..........................................   410
Jokiel, Ms. Carrie
    Testimony....................................................   224
    Prepared statement...........................................   227
    Report titled "DO NOT ENTER: Women Shut Out of U.S. 
      Government's Biggest Contracts"............................   282
Kompkoff, Mr. Gabe
    Testimony....................................................   232
    Prepared statement...........................................   235
Marrs, Mr. Carl
    Testimony....................................................   240
    Prepared statement...........................................   243
Miranda, Mr. Rolando
    Testimony....................................................   264
    Prepared statement...........................................   267
Murkowski, Hon. Lisa
    Opening statement............................................   271
Native American Contractors Association
    Statement dated June 29, 2018................................   412
Peterson, Mr. Richard
    Testimony....................................................   259
    Prepared statement...........................................   261
Risch, Hon. James E.
    Opening statement............................................     1
Sullivan, Hon. Dan
    Opening statement............................................     3
    Reports from Mr. Robert N. Rubinovitz and Dr. Jon Wainwright 
      submitted by Senator Sullivan..............................     7
Wong, Mr. Robb
    Testimony....................................................   206
    Prepared statement...........................................   220

 
                             OPPORTUNITIES
                        AND CHALLENGES WITH THE
                    SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION'S
                      FEDERAL CONTRACTING PROGRAMS

                              ----------                              


                         FRIDAY, JUNE 29, 2018

                      United States Senate,
                        Committee on Small Business
                                      and Entrepreneurship,
                                                     Anchorage, AK.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:00 p.m., in the 
Z.J. Loussac Public Library, Assembly Chambers, 3600 Denali 
Street, Anchorage, AK, Hon. James Risch, Chairman of the 
Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Risch, and Sullivan.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES E. RISCH, CHAIRMAN, A U.S. 
                       SENATOR FROM IDAHO

    Chairman Risch. Welcome, everyone. I hate to break up a 
social occasion. We're here to do some business today. Thank 
you so much for coming. I want to thank all of you for showing 
up today. We're here, taking the time on this Friday afternoon, 
to discuss small business and the critical role small 
businesses play throughout the Alaskan and U.S. economies.
    I am joined here by Senator Sullivan and Senator Murkowski, 
who is en route. We have a number of staffers from my office, 
from Senator Sullivan's office, from Senator Murkowski's 
office.
    Also, I'd like to introduce Sean Moore. Sean, where are 
you? All right. Sean is the staff director for the minority 
through Senator Cardin on the Small Business Committee. 
Obviously, I'm chair of the Small Business Committee. Senator 
Cardin is my partner and is a minority member. He's excellent 
to work with. He shares our same view and passion for small 
business. He couldn't be here today, but he sends his best, and 
sends his best in his staff director. So thank you for being 
here.
    I want to thank Senator Murkowski and Senator Sullivan for 
their help organizing this hearing. The Small Business 
Committee is here today at their invitation and their urging. 
You have a remarkable congressional delegation in Senator 
Murkowski, Senator Sullivan, and Representative Young. They are 
renowned in Washington, DC for their passionate representation 
of Alaska and Alaskans.
    We are here in our oversight capacity to learn more about 
the unique impacts small businesses have here in Alaska and are 
having throughout the State, and taking advantage of this 
opportunity to understand and work through some of the concerns 
that you may have with the current Small Business 
Administration Federal procurement programs. In short, we're 
here in our oversight capacity. We want to find out what's 
working and what isn't working.
    As I mentioned, small business plays a crucial role in the 
success of our economy, that is, America's economy. Small 
businesses are a critical engine of our economy, and that is 
especially true when it comes to job creation. With over 71,000 
small businesses here in Alaska, it's no wonder that Alaskans 
consistently display an attitude of self-reliance and the 
entrepreneurial spirit that makes America great.
    Alaska also has the unique distinction of being home to the 
Alaska Native Corporations, which we all know were created 
under the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act of 1971 to 
promote economic development and ensure that Native Alaskans 
are able to fully participate in the economy. These 
corporations have generally been considered a success, and the 
8(a) program has been a significant part of that success by 
directing Federal contracts to the corporations created under 
this Act.
    We continue to see growth in the amount of contracting 
dollars that small businesses are receiving through the SBA 
set-aside program. In the past year, small businesses were 
awarded over $105 billion in prime Federal contracts. This is a 
substantial increase of almost $6 billion of contracts awarded 
to small businesses across the country over last year.
    We saw growth in Alaska alone as well with a nearly $200 
million increase in contracting dollars from the previous year. 
Well, it is encouraging to see the success that this program 
has had. We must continually work to make sure that small 
businesses who are eligible to participate in the program are 
able to do so in the most efficient and predictable manner. As 
we strive to improve each small of the small business programs, 
it is crucial to reach out and directly talk to small 
businesses, like those that we have with us here today, to 
learn more about what is working and what isn't working.
    I would also like to commend Administrator McMahon on the 
job she has done personally visiting 49 different districts in 
39 different states, including Alaska last summer, talking to 
small businesses and better understanding the challenges that 
they face.
    In addition to that, she cared enough to send one of the 
very best, Jeremy Field. Where's Jeremy? Jeremy is the District 
Director out of Seattle from the Small Business Administration. 
Thank you for recognizing Jeremy. Jeremy had absolutely 
outstanding training for this job.
    How many years did you spend on the Risch team, Jeremy?
    Mr. Field. Nine years.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you very much. Jeremy, we're so glad 
to have you.
    Administrator McMahon testified in front of this committee 
last month about her findings and the success small businesses 
are having since abolishing many arcane and outdated 
regulations that were restricting small businesses from 
reaching their full potential. Administrator McMahon, along 
with the committee and along with staff, have been working 
diligently to reduce the regulatory structure that is so 
difficult to work through.
    This Small Business Committee has in recent months and 
years been reforming SBA and the laws that govern its great 
success. I was with the President just last week as he signed a 
major piece of legislation we produced, and he was very 
appreciative of this committee's efforts. We sincerely 
appreciate his recognition of that.
    In the time I have left as Chairman, which is through the 
end of the year before I turn this over to Senator Rubio and I 
move on to a different committee, it's my goal to continue to 
level the playing field to provide more opportunities for small 
businesses so that they can continue to compete at the highest 
level possible.
    I look forward to hearing from Associate Administrator Wong 
and the five other small business representatives we have here 
today. We're going to do two panels. First with Administrator 
Wong, and then with the small businesses.
    Thank you again, all of you, for your participation. Again, 
I want to recognize the passion that the Senators and 
Congressman from the State of Alaska share with us for small 
businesses.
    So, with that, Senator Sullivan, thank you for inviting us.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DAN SULLIVAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 
                             ALASKA

    Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is such an 
honor to have you here in the great State of Alaska. Now, it 
took us a while to get there. We were flying together last 
night and had a four- or five-hour layover delay in 
Minneapolis. So if you're looking at a little bit of a sleepy 
Chairman and number two, we got in just a couple hours ago, but 
we look great.
    Chairman Risch. It's not true that you can't get here from 
there; it just takes awhile.
    Senator Sullivan. It just takes awhile, but we're really 
glad you're here.
    I do want to mention, one of the most important things that 
Senator Murkowski and Congressman Young and I try to do 
representing all of you is bring important Federal Government 
officials to our great State. We have an amazing State, but 
we're very unique in so many ways. So bringing Cabinet 
officials--some of you may have seen I had the opportunity to 
bring Secretary Mattis up here last weekend. We have Secretary 
Acosta coming in tonight for a few days of hearings and 
roundtables, it's also really important to bring our fellow 
U.S. Senators.
    I can't think of anyone, in many ways, more important than 
Senator Risch. He's being very humble here, but he's the 
Chairman of this committee, Small Business Committee for the 
United States Senate, and he's also number two Committee 
Chairman on the Foreign Relations Committee, which he'll likely 
be chairing after the elections in November, and number two on 
the Senate Intel Committee. So this is one of the most 
important U.S. Senators in the entire Senate, and we are very, 
very deeply honored that you would come here and chair this 
committee for our State and our small businesses.
    I think it's safe to say certainly my number one priority 
as Alaska's Senator is to bring back strong economic growth and 
job opportunities for all of our State. You're probably seeing 
in the Lower 48 the economy is really starting to crank. The 
unemployment rate is at historic lows. That's in large measure 
because of tax reform, rolling back unnecessary, burdensome 
regulations, and unleashing a promise of American energy. All 
of those areas can certainly help us.
    We need and we're trying and I think we're getting there, 
but we're lagging, let's face it, in terms of the economy, in 
terms of some of the highest unemployment rates in the country; 
but as the Chairman already mentioned, the key, whether it's 
the U.S. economy or the Alaska economy, to real sustained 
growth is through our small businesses, which are the engines 
of growth in Alaska and throughout the United States.
    So that's what this hearing in many ways is all about: The 
economy, growth small businesses, and opportunities like 
government-contracting programs, which I know we're going to 
get into detail.
    I'm very honored here to have Robb Wong of the SBA. I'm 
honored also to have so many from Senator Risch's staff and my 
staff, but it's so important to have all of them up here. I 
want to extend to them a warm Alaskan welcome. Senator 
Murkowski, we're hoping, is going to be here soon. She is 
actually having her own traveling challenges right now. But 
when she shows up here soon, we hope, we'll give her a nice 
warm welcome as well.
    To hammer home the importance of this hearing, I want to 
submit for the record two expert reports on the historical and 
contemporary disparities on government and commercial 
contracting that were admitted to the court by the Department 
of Justice.
    Are you aware that minority-owned small businesses, which 
is what the second panel is comprised of, those minority-owned 
small businesses have a 30 percent lower chance in securing 
government contracts than non-minority-owned businesses. 
Further, there have been studies that show that small 
disadvantaged businesses, SDBs, are statistically less likely 
to win a contract in industries accounting for over 82 percent 
of contract actions.
    So I think these are the kind of disparities that we want 
to look at and want to address. I'm going to have the honor 
here in a little bit of introducing the members of the second 
panel, who I'm very pleased could come here. I know they're all 
so busy.
    Small businesses are the backbone, as I mentioned, of our 
economy and the Nation's economy. As part of encouraging small 
business development and growth, the SBA and this committee, 
Mr. Chairman, provide many resources for our small businesses 
to thrive, including some of the programs we're going to talk 
about, woman-owned small business Federal contracting programs, 
service-disabled veteran small business programs, which are 
something I'm very passionate about. I think, Mr. Chairman, you 
probably know Alaska has more veterans per capita than any 
State in the country.
    Our Alaska Native community, which is almost 20 percent of 
our population, serve at higher rates in the military--and 
we're going to see some of those witnesses today--than any 
other ethnic group in the country. So there's a strong 
patriotism in this great State across all peoples. Having 
service-disabled veteran-owned small business programs, I 
think, is very important for the country and Alaska.
    The 8(a) business development program, the HUBZone program, 
and the Small Mentor-Protege Program, again, are all important 
programs that extend to many different populations, not only in 
Alaska, but in the United States. It's going to be exciting to 
hear about these programs from the Administrator and challenges 
and opportunities they present and, again, opportunities to 
also take advantage of these and let our small businesses in 
Alaska know about this.
    I do want to spend a minute on an issue that I will be 
asking the second panel about that relates to a program, Mr. 
Chairman. You mentioned the importance of the 8(a) program that 
was extended in the 1980s to Alaska Native Regional 
Corporations and Village Corporations. These are corporations 
that were actually set up in 1971 by the Congress. I had to 
give a speech on the Senate floor last night because 
unfortunately some of my colleagues have amnesia a little bit 
about what we call ANCSA and how important that was.
    We have a tremendous leader in the Alaska Native community, 
actually throughout our whole State, Tara Sweeney, who last 
night got confirmed by the United States Senate to be Assistant 
Secretary of Indian Affairs at the Department of Interior. The 
top official in the Federal Government in charge of Alaska 
Native programs and Lower 48 American Indian programs; but 
there were some Senators who were almost holding against her 
the fact that she was a shareholder in an Alaska Native 
Regional Corporation, despite the fact that Congress was the 
entity that set up the program. So I had to go down on the 
floor and explain a little bit to my colleagues on what they 
were doing. It was very inappropriate to hold somebody based on 
that criteria when the Congress was actually the one that set 
up and created that criteria.
    So there have been areas where, I think, some of the 8(a) 
programs, Alaska Regional and Village Corporations, have been 
misunderstood. There was a recent article in the Alaska--the 
Anchorage Daily News about the 811 program and how we are 
working to make sure that that program--it was air-dropped into 
the National Defense Authorization Act in some ways as a way to 
penalize Alaska Native and Regional and Village Corporations. 
We are working to kind of reduce that. I think the Secretary of 
the Army, the Navy and the Air Force have recognized the 
importance of this. They put out recent memos on their views on 
the contracting. So I think we can discuss that in the second 
panel.
    Again, overall I just want to say, Mr. Chairman, it's such 
an honor to have you here. Small businesses in Alaska and 
America are truly the success stories that drive our economy 
here and throughout our great Nation. Small business 
contracting can help add to that.
    I do want to mention to everybody here--it's a great 
turnout--that if you are interested, you can submit statements 
to the record for the Chairman for this committee if you have 
views that you think you want us to hear about in addition to 
the witnesses. But I am just so honored that Chairman Risch is 
here holding this hearing and that so many Alaskans and small 
businesses have come out to participate.
    So, Mr. Chairman, thank you again. I'm very much looking 
forward to this hearing.
    [Reports submitted by Senator Sulllivan follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Risch. Thank you so much, Dan. First of all, let 
me say I share your view that Alaska certainly has unique 
issues for a lot of different reasons. Interestingly enough, 
some of them are not unlike Idaho's. Senator Sullivan and I and 
Senator Murkowski share the same challenge, that is, trying to 
explain to our brethren from the east coast what it's like to 
have your State owned by the Federal Government. In Idaho, two 
out of every three acres is owned by the Federal Government. I 
know you're even higher here. I think about three-fourths or 
something?
    Senator Sullivan. It's 66 percent.
    Chairman Risch. We have some counties that are actually 97 
percent, and I suspect you've got the same thing. So that 
creates really, really unique challenges because we are after 
all sovereign states. We have joined together as a Federal 
Government, and on some things the Federal Government is 
premier and on some things the State is premier. There's a lot 
of elbowing to get to the appropriate ground, but it is----
    Senator Sullivan. We're partners in elbowing usually, so--
--
    Chairman Risch. That's right. It's difficult to sit down 
with somebody from Delaware or somebody from Maryland. To start 
with, the first conversation you have if they've never heard 
that before, they don't believe you. They say: Well, that can't 
be. The Federal Government owns two-thirds of your state? How 
can that be? Here's the map. It's crystal clear. So we share 
some of the challenges.
    I'd like to welcome Mr. Robb Wong to this hearing. He's the 
Associate Administrator for the Office of Government 
Contracting and Business Development at the Small Business 
Administration. In the role at the SBA, Mr. Wong advocates for 
small businesses who look to compete in the Federal contracting 
market. Since being sworn in, Mr. Wong has worked to streamline 
the Federal procurement process at the SBA in an effort to make 
the process more efficient and effective for small businesses 
to compete for Federal contracts.
    We continue to work closely with Mr. Wong and his office. I 
look forward to hearing an update about the SBA set-aside 
program and where he thinks improvements can be made.
    Mr. Wong, thank you for joining us today. The floor is 
yours.

  STATEMENT OF ROBB WONG, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF 
  GOVERNMENT CONTRACTING AND BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT, U.S. SMALL 
            BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION, WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Wong. Thank you very much for the privilege of 
appearing today. If I can read a statement: Chairman Risch, 
Senator Sullivan, and Senator Murkowski. Thank you for the 
invitation to testify today and for having me at this important 
hearing to discuss Federal contracting programs at the U.S. 
Small Business Administration. As the Associate Administrator 
for the Office of Government Contracting and Business 
Development, or GCBD as I call it for short, it is my job to 
ensure that small businesses can compete for Federal 
opportunities.
    In fiscal year 2017 that included a record $1.57 billion in 
set-aside awards to small businesses. As you mentioned, that's 
$6 billion more than we've spent before. That's roughly another 
50,000 jobs. We're very proud of that.
    As part of that, my office oversees the 8(a) business 
development program, which helps to provide a level playing 
field for small businesses owned and controlled by socially and 
economically disadvantaged individuals or certain specified 
disadvantaged entities. Alaska Native Corporations, or ANCs, 
are included in that program. As you know, ANCs play a unique 
and integral part in the economic development here in Alaska. 
We have been working hard to ensure their successful 
participation in the 8(a) program.
    Administrator McMahon and I share a passion for making 
SBA's procurement-related programs, and particularly the 8(a) 
business development program, more efficient and less 
burdensome to both procuring agencies and our small businesses. 
In a word, I want businesses to be able to get our 
certifications easier so they can make more money. I want the 
government to look at our programs as small business first and 
SBA first and it's easier for them to provide supply and 
government contracts to them.
    For over 35 years I've been working in and around the 8(a) 
program. My first experience was when I was 17 years old 
working for an 8(a) company. Then I worked with the SBA to 
write the regulations. I've been outside the agency in 
commercial for 25 years consulting with small businesses, and I 
have the opportunity to come back to SBA and to work with the 
program that's been so central to my professional life and is 
synonymous with SBA.
    The best way to do that is to directly hear from our 
customers and to learn from them what is working and what can 
be done better. With that in mind, last year Administrator 
McMahon brought her ninth tour to Alaska. Her trip included 
meetings with business owners, ANC representatives, and other 
entrepreneurs in Anchorage, Bethel, and Kwethluk.
    She had the opportunity to see and hear firsthand the 
issues facing small businesses in Alaska, including those 
related to Federal contracting programs. Based on the feedback 
she received, I've been focused on making sure the SBA is best 
maximizing the delivery of the 8(a) program. I'd like to share 
some of the progress we've made at the agency to improve the 
program.
    As previously mentioned, hearing directly from our partners 
is imperative to me as a salesperson and as a business owner to 
learning how our programs are functioning. This is my fourth 
trip to Alaska as head of GCBD. I receive valuable insight and 
feedback every time I'm here.
    Last month I was here with my colleague, John Klein. We 
held a tribal consultation session with the ANCs, their 
shareholders, and tribal representatives here in Alaska in this 
very room. We had excellent conversations about streamlining 
and reducing specific regulatory burdens in a sensible way. I 
appreciated the opportunity to interact with the ANCs during 
the session and the positive feedback that the ANCSA Regional 
Association provided.
    Last week I spoke to the National 8(a) Association Annual 
Conference here in Anchorage. I discussed the improvements that 
we've been making, like making it easier to get qualified 
companies certified and continue to receive valuable feedback 
about what we can do better. In that regard, we brought six of 
my personal staff from headquarters up here as well as our 
district office here in Alaska.
    I share the following examples to let you know that we 
value the input we have received and that these meetings have 
already resulted in program improvements from the comments we 
have received in these meetings. We have added three business 
opportunity specialists, BOSs, from the Alaska District office. 
The BOS is a district office staff member who works directly 
with small businesses and is responsible for implementing the 
8(a) program at the SBA district office level.
    The addition of BOSs in Alaska will allow SBA to be better 
equated to help ANCs and others looking for Federal contracting 
opportunities. I mentioned John Klein, senior member of our 
Office of General Counsel. John has been to the Alaska District 
office twice this year to assist in training the BOSs on the 
rules pertaining to ANCs.
    Additional training has been a key initiative. We're 
empowering our field offices by giving them ongoing guidance on 
program changes, processes, and policies. We believe that we 
have a tremendous model of excellence here in the Alaska 
District Office headed by our District Director, Nancy Porzio.
    As noted, regulatory comments received during our tribal 
consultation have been important to our program assessment. 
We're in the process of drafting changes to the 8(a) 
regulations that are a direct response to that feedback. We are 
committed to our oversight responsibilities, and where 
possible, we also seek to relieve unnecessary and excessive 
burdens on the small businesses we serve.
    This effort is not limited to the 8(a) program, but extends 
to the HUBZone program as well. For our consultations here in 
Anchorage as well as Albuquerque and Oklahoma City, we are 
looking for ways to implement reforms that will make it easier 
for small business concerns to understand and comply with 
important program requirements.
    Gentleman, my philosophy is small business first. Our 
programs, like 8(a), HUBZone, and SDVO not only help small 
businesses to grow and thrive, but equally importantly allow 
the Federal Government to reach the quality solution it wants 
rapidly, reliably, and immediately.
    I'd love for the government contracting officer to think 
small business first and to look at SBA-certified companies to 
be their first choice to fulfill the government's needs for 
products and services. The 8(a) program is synonymous with our 
agency, SBA, and is widely used by Federal contracting officers 
in every agency because of its ease of use of to identify a 
quality solution and award it quickly and accurately to support 
the public and the war fighter.
    Alaska Natives, Hawaiian Natives and tribes are our power 
users of our 8(a) certification. We value comments and rely on 
them to help us to improve our certifications to make them more 
useful in business and more useful to the Government. ANCs, 
Hawaiian Natives, and Native Tribes have a greater 
responsibility than a typical 8(a) since they must bear 
responsibility to help preserve past, present, and future 
generations of people and their lands.
    From my visits here in Alaska and in DC, the commitment 
that Alaskans have to Alaska and to each other is palpable. I 
am so appreciative of their willingness to work with SBA to 
help us improve our agency and our programs. It is an honor to 
be able to help Alaska and All Small businesses for now and 
also for the future.
    Thank you, and I'll take your questions.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you Mr. Wong, and thank you for 
serving where you are. We know that you're aggressively 
pursuing this. We want to encourage you to continue to do so. 
It's the direction we all want to go.
    With that, Senator Sullivan, do you have questions?
    Senator Sullivan. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Wong, first, 
thanks for coming up, not only for this hearing, but so 
frequently with your team. It's really impressive and it's 
really good for all of my constituents in this room to know 
that and know how open and accessible you are.
    On the BOSs, the business opportunity specialists here, 
you've said that you increased the number in Alaska to three; 
is that correct?
    Mr. Wong. We have three new ones this year.
    Senator Sullivan. That's three new ones that were in 
addition so that's----
    Mr. Wong. [continuing]. Some rotated off, but then I think 
we also have--I think, speaking with Nancy Porzio, she has a 
request for some additional ones.
    Senator Sullivan. Do you anticipate granting those 
requests?
    Mr. Wong. Excuse me?
    Senator Sullivan. Do you anticipate granting those requests 
from Nancy?
    Mr. Wong. Yes, I'm leaning that way.
    Senator Sullivan. Good. That would be helpful.
    I just want to thank you, your boss, Administrator McMahon, 
who I know has a very good relationship with Chairman Risch and 
with me and Senator Murkowski. She kept her commitment. When 
she went through the Senate confirmation process, one of the 
commitments I asked of her was to get to Alaska soon in her 
tenure, and she did that. She, as you mentioned, traveled all 
over the State.
    So I'd like to begin just that with some kind of--I think a 
really important element of this hearing is not only what 
you've talked about in terms of your areas of focus, but just 
to help educate Alaskans in general on some of the broader 
issues that you're working on and then some of the more Alaska-
specific issues that you're working on that people can take 
advantage of. So a lot of my questions for you are going to be 
kind of educational.
    So let me start with two very basic kind of questions for 
you. Can you describe in more detail what the BOSs do, what 
their role is, how small businesses can actually utilize them?
    Second, again, in more detail, the HUBZone concept and 
goals and, again, what that means nationally, but how can 
Alaska's small businesses take advantage of those two general 
areas of really help and reinforcement that you bring to the 
table, but a lot of times my constituents or other Americans 
don't know about it. So the business opportunity specialists 
and the HUBZones.
    Please feel free to go into as much detail as you would 
like.
    Mr. Wong. Well, I'll try to keep it shorter than what I'd 
like.
    Senator Sullivan. The floor is yours. In all seriousness, 
these are really important and I think sometimes people don't 
fully understand.
    Mr. Wong. Sure. Not a problem. Thank you very much.
    So if you look at the SBA, again, we've kind of divided, so 
I try to look at this like a business. In general, we have a 
product. The product is our basic four certifications: 8(a), 
HUBZones, woman-owned businesses, and service-disabled 
veterans. So 8(a) is our best product. When the program was set 
up originally, if you want to look at it this way, we have two 
things. We have GC and then we have BD. BD is supposed to be 
the 8(a) to develop businesses.
    Senator Sullivan. And BD?
    Mr. Wong. In my title, government contracting and business 
development.
    Senator Sullivan. Okay. Business development is BD.
    Mr. Wong. Yes. Then, in general, the BD is the 8(a) 
program. Now, as a sales guy--and we'll get to this--I 
generally think that we really don't have any BD, so we're 
starting to train people on that. Basically, BD, to me, is once 
we have this product, how do we use it to make money?
    So what we also have is we have GC, government contracting. 
Basically what that is, that's supposed to be SBA's ability 
through our OSDBU and through working with our partner 
agencies, we're basically trying to increase the supply of 
contracts for small business. If I took one half-step 
backwards, one of the primary missions of my job is to make 
sure that out of the total Federal to spend, that 23 percent or 
more goes to small businesses.
    Senator Sullivan. And is that statutorily defined, or is 
that just something that you put forward and Administrator 
McMahon has as a target?
    Mr. Wong. It's by statute, but then personally, if you're 
asking me, I would say I would love to be able--during the time 
I have, I would love to turn that into a floor and not a seat.
    Senator Sullivan. Good.
    Mr. Wong. So, in general, if you look at this, what we've 
typically done when we walk in--and I talked to Mrs. McMahon 
about this--typically we'd be making rules in headquarters. I 
was part of that problem when I was working there in 1990. I 
was an attorney, and I wrote some of the regulations. What we 
would do is we would use our field offices kind of 
sporadically.
    When I came back to SBA and talked to Mrs. McMahon, we 
realized that this is a business. Our district office now, in 
my opinion, should be the point of sale. So the example that I 
was saying before to people is that I like McDonald's in a 
really unhealthy way. So what happens is that--but it's like 
going to McDonald's at different points, 68 different places, 
ordering the same sandwich, and getting 68 different results. 
All right? That's a horrible way to run a business.
    So, for example, what we're trying to do even then is we're 
trying to have a first national BOS training, and that's going 
to be--I think it's next week in Washington, DC. So we're 
flying all of the BOSs in from the 68 different offices. 
Effectively what we're doing, we're coming up with training 
that will help them to identify, pursue, capture, and execute 
Federal opportunities. We have to train our sales staff in the 
way that we would like first, and they can, in turn, take that 
information, and go to the people that have our certifications.
    On the other side of what we have is to develop the supply 
of contracts. In my opinion, the certifications are only part 
of that. It's like having the spoon to eat, but if the food's--
so we're increasing the number of people that have spoons, but 
if we only have a certain amount of food, eventually people 
aren't--you know, there's going to be so many people with 
spoons, if we don't increase that food supply, people are going 
to have a terrible time with our product, right. So I have to 
do a job over there to make sure that the government 
understands the value of using the certifications under the 
certified companies so that they can increase the supply of 
contracts.
    Senator Sullivan. Okay. And then how does that relate to--
are the HUBZones--I always get confused myself. Are those 
physical areas that are designated, or is that more of a 
concept that is part of you trying to get more service 
contracts to minority-owned businesses and other entities under 
the 8(a) program?
    Mr. Wong. So they're real. They're kind of like what 
Chairman Risch had said about the maps, right. So we have maps. 
In general, based on a bunch of math--and I'm not good with 
math--but the math will come up, and it will basically shine a 
flashlight onto an area. For that year, that area will be 
determined a HUBZone. So, in general, what we want is if it's a 
HUBZone, for example, if you and I created a company. Well, we 
went to 400 6th Avenue here in Alaska, if that's a HUBZone, 
we'll build our business there.
    Senator Sullivan. So do you have designated HUBZones that 
are physically designated in Alaska right now?
    Mr. Wong. Well, yes. I would say the majority of Alaska is 
a HUBZone.
    Senator Sullivan. Okay. So you can take advantage of all 
that.
    Mr. Wong. Well, yes, in theory you could. So this is one of 
the reasons----
    Senator Sullivan. Are we? When I say ``we'' I mean 
collectively small businesses in the State. Could we do more 
and, if so, how?
    Mr. Wong. So, in theory, here's what I think could happen. 
Assuming that the HUBZone program was a robust program, yes, it 
would be actually a natural transition for even your 8(a) 
companies who work under the ANCs to transition into the 
HUBZones because--but, you know, as a businessperson having 
worked under these programs in several companies, you know, 
this is a target-rich environment, right. The problem is that 
we have the HUBZone program; as I see it, for businesses, it's 
sort of broken.
    So I think one of the good achievements that you should 
take from this meeting is that Mrs. McMahon, I convinced her to 
put her shoulder behind HUBZone, and we're going to fix that. 
One, it will give a lot of Alaskans a transitional company that 
they can continue to work with, but, more importantly, it will 
give the government contracting officer another reason to love 
SBA-certified companies and keep pushing up contracts for them.
    Senator Sullivan. Good. Excellent. Let me ask another 
question that's a broad-based question that I know Chairman 
Risch and I share a passion for. That is the challenge and, to 
be quite frank, the problem of too many government Federal 
regulations. So even the SBA, which is trying to help small 
businesses in Alaska and throughout the country, you create a 
bureaucracy that has as its intention helpful policies, but 
when the policies get implemented, you have--and I'm not using 
this team pejoratively--but the bureaucrats in the agency 
promulgate an avalanche of rules and red tape to, quote, 
unquote, help small businesses be able to obtain opportunities 
through these programs, but you have small--but they're small 
businesses. It's two or three or four people, and they have a 
mountain of Federal regs that they need to get through. You 
kind of squash the opportunity before they can even achieve it.
    So what is the SBA now doing to streamline the regulatory 
process to enable small businesses to actually take advantage 
of the opportunities that you are presenting to Alaska 
companies without creating so much red tape that you discourage 
the very activity that your agency was designed by Congress to 
help with?
    Mr. Wong. That's a long question.
    Senator Sullivan. But it's an important question. I hope 
you have a good answer.
    Mr. Wong. I do. I do. I have a good answer. So take 
HUBZone, for example. If I could very briefly digress a little 
bit.
    Senator Sullivan. Do you recognize that this is a problem?
    Mr. Wong. Oh, yes.
    Senator Sullivan. Okay. And that more regs hurt small 
businesses; that's just a given.
    Mr. Wong. Absolutely.
    Senator Sullivan. Okay. Well, that's a start.
    Mr. Wong. Yes. As a little bit of background, so I worked 
in an 8(a) company and then I came here and I wrote some of the 
rules and regulations. Then I actually ran the program for 
about six months. Then I went in and ran two of our district 
offices. Then I quit SBA for a little while. Then I helped 16 
companies with 8(a) programs to develop, okay. I had to live 
under the rules that I created----
    Senator Sullivan. Good.
    Mr. Wong. [continuing]. To help, right. What's so helpful?
    Senator Sullivan. So you've been on both sides of the 
equation.
    Mr. Wong. Yes, sir.
    Senator Sullivan. Good.
    Chairman Risch. That's really good. That's unusual for a 
Federal bureaucracy. Everybody should have to do that. They'd 
have a different view.
    Mr. Wong. My mother called me unusual, but in a different 
way.
    Senator Sullivan. You don't need to go there.
    Mr. Wong. So as an example, let's take HUBZone. I've said 
this before. SBA is here to stay--SBA and 8(a) is here to stay, 
absolutely. We're going to build on that, but HUBZone could be 
another powerful tool. If you look at HUBZone, it has basically 
four things that we've identified that we think we can fix this 
year that prevent people from making investment to go into the 
HUBZone and, therefore, prevents the government from being able 
to use it.
    So if I can digress real quickly. When the maps says a 
special address is a HUBZone, you and I make an investment. 
We're smart. We're going to go and take up a lease with--you 
know, discounted leases don't start for less than five years. 
So now we're paying full market rate. Here's the weird thing 
with the HUBZone. Next year that flashlight, that out-zone map, 
the math could recalculate and the HUBZones move. Now we're 
immediately noncompliant.
    We have another rule that says once you're in that HUBZone, 
you have to hire 35 percent of your staff from that HUBZone or 
another HUBZone in order to be compliant. The challenge often 
is that you may find somebody that's willing to work with you 
that's actually incapable of doing work. Then you have a timing 
problem because we have a rule that also says that that you 
have to be compliant at the time that you bid on your award and 
also at the time when you receive it. So right now, for 
example, we're in June--this is kind of cool. June 29th, this 
is actually my 21st anniversary today and I'm here, by the way.
    Chairman Risch. Glad you remembered that. It could be a 
disaster.
    Senator Sullivan. Between your mom and your wife, we're 
learning a lot about you.
    Chairman Risch. Who says bureaucrats aren't people?
    Mr. Wong. The challenge you have is that, at this time 
here, you and I are going to start a company. We're going to 
make widgets. We're going to put out four bids around June, and 
then they're going to be awarded probably starting in July and 
August before the end of the fiscal year. Here's the challenge. 
Let's say it's for 100 people who make widgets. We put out four 
bids. All of the agencies are going to go through the time and 
expense of competing with these things. Very expensive, its 
very time consuming.
    Then we are going to get our first award because we're 
pretty good, right. We'll shake hands, go drink a beer, and 
that'll be great. Except for the problem is that now we have to 
hire the next hundred people. We've got to staff up, right. 
We've to get 35 people from a HUBZone or within our HUBZone or 
a HUBZone. That's not often easy to do. It's certainly not 
fast. I know that from my experience.
    So here's what happens. We win that first award January 1st 
and we celebrate. Third week in January we're midway through 
our staffing of that opportunity, and we win the second award. 
But because of the rules that we have, we actually cannot 
accept that award because we are out of compliance based on 
that first award. So that means we can't accept the third award 
or the fourth award.
    So what happens, it's certainly disappointing to the small 
business. That's another reason why we wouldn't want to invest 
into that business. But, more importantly, it really annoys the 
government because they're going to say: Hey, what was that 
vehicle we used? HUBZone. We went through the time and expense 
of competing this contract, and now we're not allowed to award 
it? We're never using that again.
    So we want to change that as well. I also have--if we're 
successful with that, I have some ideas also for other ways to 
make it easier regarding that 35 percent. There's another thing 
we may want to work on later that says that if we have--if the 
business has trouble hitting that 35 percent, we'd like to give 
them a two-year exemption so they can use perhaps veterans, 
Natives, or disabled individuals whether they live in a HUBZone 
or not. That one's in the future.
    The first three things I'm talking about, however, are 
things that are already in the pipeline, and we should be able 
to accomplish hopefully by early next year.
    Senator Sullivan. Great. That's a really good answer. Let 
me move to another kind of area that's related. It's the 
education function that you're in charge of.
    From my perspective, you kind of choose educational roles. 
One, and perhaps most importantly--no, most importantly is to 
educate the people who qualify for your programs.
    The second--and I'll get to that in my nest line of 
questions--is actually educate Federal officials, whether 
they're Members of Congress or other Federal agencies, on the 
programs as well.
    Let's focus on the first kind of education mission that you 
have. So let's say that you're a combat-wounded vet. You come 
home from Iraq or Afghanistan. You have a good idea for a 
business or you're an 8(a) Village Corporation and you're 
trying to help your shareholders who live in parts of America 
who don't have a lot of opportunity. And they're like: Hey, I'm 
going to try and get the SBA to help me out.
    Where do those individuals or companies, small businesses, 
or you're a woman who graduated from college and you have a 
great idea, but you're kind of struggling. Where do those 
Alaskans, Americans go to get educated on the opportunities 
that you provide?
    Because in my experience, it seems like you might have all 
these great ideas and great programs, and yet it's really hard 
to get the word out. Nobody knows, and it's a big challenge, 
and you're missing an opportunity. What are you guys doing to 
make sure those examples, and all the other ones that I've 
talked about that you're responsible for, to essentially get 
the word out?
    Mr. Wong. So obviously we have a website, but what we're 
doing right now is----
    Senator
    Senator Sullivan. Well, you've got to be way more 
aggressive than the website.
    Mr. Wong. I'm just starting, yes. We've got to be loud and 
proud, right. I think that to an extent--we've got our website 
that we're updating because we looked at that and said, ``This 
is kind of stale information. It's kind of like having a drawer 
full of silverware and people just kind of threw it in there.'' 
So even if you could get into the drawer, it's like crazy; you 
can't even make sense of it.
    So what we're trying to do even with the website is make 
sure that the information we have is orderly and it makes 
sense, but I've even had a directive that said: I want to get 
to something within three clicks. Its driving people crazy, 
but, you know. Then we have our Small Business Development 
Centers. In Washington, DC, at least, there is a slew of 
consultants, right, who used this as an industry.
    Senator Sullivan. Are they helpful or not helpful?
    Mr. Wong. Well, it depends. When I used to be a consultant, 
I thought I was very helpful. In all seriousness, sir, I think 
that you shouldn't have to hire a consultant just to get into 
the program.
    Senator Sullivan. Absolutely. You're right.
    Mr. Wong. And the promise I've made is when I go and say 
that to people, that if we can do as an agency what I hope we 
can do, you're going to have more people in business; and when 
you have more people in business, you have real problems that 
they can help. We're looking for every avenue where the public 
looks to be able to provide that information for them.
    So we even have, for example, the Veterans Administration 
Office. What I'm trying to do, for example, is to work with to 
leverage all of their existing depots, if you will, and points 
of contact so that we can push that information out there.
    Senator Sullivan. Okay. And do you think that you're making 
progress on this?
    Mr. Wong. I hope so.
    Senator Sullivan. It's a really, really important element 
of your job.
    Mr. Wong. Yes. You know, I'm a sales guy by nature. So I do 
firmly believe that if you have the better mousetrap, the world 
will not beat a path to your door because if the world doesn't 
know you have that mousetrap, nobody's coming.
    Senator Sullivan. What are your metrics to help you measure 
the extent to which you are achieving that mission, which I 
think we would all agree is a really important element: Getting 
the word out to the people who qualify for your programs that 
they indeed qualify.
    Do you have metrics by which the SBA is measuring that, 
because, again you could doing all the greatest work in the 
world, but if nobody knows about it, it's not really going to 
be that impactful.
    Mr. Wong. Right. One of the primary metrics is that we 
spent $6 billion more on small business than we ever have 
before. It's a basic metric, but I think that's important. I 
think that at least some of the things we're doing are trending 
up there.
    Senator Sullivan. But that's an input; how about an output? 
What are you looking at as an output?
    Mr. Wong. So one of the things we're doing, and I've tried 
to be active with this here, is we're trying to empower our 
district offices, and their job with the BOSs, again, is to 
service the portfolio of 8(a) companies that they have. So I'm 
trying to provide the very simple metric. Again, we're trying 
to provide training. We have to basically train our sales staff 
on our points of sale, which is the business opportunity 
specialists.
    Then what I literally want them to do, if I have my way, is 
to take the information that we have and then to hand it out to 
at least 100 percent of their portfolios. Then I think what 
we're also looking at--this is not exactly what you are asked, 
but it's something that we're trying to spread through 
government. One of the other metrics, again--we have something, 
and I apologize for digressing. We have specter of something 
called category management that's going to be--it's supported 
by the government, but, in general, if we don't work with that, 
it's very bad for small business. It will have the effect of 
hitting all the money with a lot less people.
    So what we're trying to do is, at the same time we're using 
that as kind of the calling card, to go back to our district 
office and portfolio, again to alert people. We're trying to 
let people know that we exist. We're trying to continue to keep 
the information fresh. We're trying to make sure that the 
businesses that are there have different ways to sell to the 
government, but then also--sorry. Then, in keeping with that, 
every time we meet with the small businesses, now we're trying 
to track literally how many businesses are you seeing with the 
actual information.
    Right now I think a lot of the BOSs, based on what we've 
been talking about with them, a lot of them have been burdened 
with compliance work. So once you get into this--once you get 
the certification, then the BOSs are basically trying to make 
sure that they stay in. So what we've done with the computer 
system that we have, as part of the computer system, is to 
relieve some of the burden that they normally have with this 
compliance burden so it can be done by computer. So they'll 
have more time to spend face-to-face with the certification 
holders. Then, likewise, we're also trying to make sure that 
when we fly them in, so that once they have that free time, 
they'll know what to do with it.
    Senator Sullivan. Great. Thank you. If you can remain 
focused on that, I think that's going to be very important.
    Mr. Chairman, I have just one more area of focus, and 
that's in terms of questions. I'll try to be brief here because 
I know we have a second panel to get to. That relates to the 
role that you play in terms of not only educating those who are 
qualified for the programs, but for Federal Government 
officials. And that could be everything from U.S. Senators to 
other Federal officials.
    I've had experiences, and I won't name names, of certain 
U.S. Senators talking about how, well, she wasn't going to be 
that supportive of the 8(a) program for Alaska Native 
Corporations because there's too many mansions on the Potomac 
that relate to Alaska Village Corporation shareholders. I was 
like: Wow, maybe you should come out to some of the villages 
and see all the mansions out here. Unfortunately, some of the 
highest poverty rates in the country. So very uneducated, to be 
perfectly blunt. So that's an important role that I think all 
of you have. But I mentioned--I touched on it briefly in my 
opening statement, the Section 811 of the 2010 National Defense 
Authorization Act clearly had a chilling effect on Alaska 
Native Corporation contracting and the ability to bid on higher 
valued government contracts.
    One of the things as I looked into that law that was, I 
thought, a misreading of the law was that the reading of the 
contracting officers, particularly in the Department of 
Defense, was that that law mandated that the secretaries of the 
branches of the military had to personally sign off on any 
contract just for Alaska Native Corporation above a certain 
amount. It was 20 million: I think now it's 22 million. Well, 
of course that has a dramatic chilling effect because a 
contracting officer is not going to try to get in front of the 
Secretary of the Army. He's a very busy man or woman.
    So, as you probably saw, there was a GAO report in 2014 
where those contracting opportunities for Alaska Native 
Corporations essentially went to zero from hundreds of 
millions. That hurt not just the corporations, but hundreds, if 
not thousands, of Alaskans, Native and non-Native. Because if 
you're looking here, you're kind of in the midtown section of 
Anchorage. The Alaska Native Corporations, the Village 
Corporations are a huge engine of growth for Alaska, for 
everyone, Native, non-Native, veteran, nonveteran.
    So in my discussions with the incoming secretaries of the 
Army, Navy, Air Force, I asked them to take a look at this. 
Hey, this is really important. I think it's been read wrong. I 
don't think you, Mr. Secretary, Madam Secretary, need to 
personally sign off. Once you get confirmed, go take a look, 
and if you agree with me, get a memo out to your contracting 
officer saying: This is not mandated that I do this. And, oh, 
by the way, these are really good companies and good value for 
military contracts.
    They have done that. They have issued memos. They agreed 
with that reading of 811, that it wasn't so restrictive. We're 
hopeful that that won't have--that this chilling effect will be 
kind of diminished. But is there anything that the SBA can do 
to assist in these efforts to actually read the law correctly 
and not have such a chilling effect with regard to the 8(a) 
program as it relates to government contracting, particularly 
with regard to the military services?
    Mr. Wong. Yes.
    Senator Sullivan. And what would that be?
    Mr. Wong. Just kidding. So every month we have something 
called OSDBU, Office of Small Disadvantaged Business 
Utilization. They are individuals who work for other agencies 
who often deal directly with the secretary. And they're with 
the 24 largest procuring activities. Generally, I noticed when 
they first came into our office, monthly, a couple of them 
would start checking their watches and they'd kind of just 
check the box.
    I made a pitch to them and said: Listen, why don't we turn 
this into a group where we--you know, our responsibility, 
again, is to educate the government side--
    Senator Sullivan. Yes. Good.
    Mr. Wong. [continuing]. So that they know the importance, 
right.
    I'd like to say thank you very much for getting those 
letters. Those letters, I believe, were signed. Kate gave those 
to me maybe within the last three weeks.
    Senator Sullivan. Yes. We finalized them all, Secretary of 
the Army, Secretary of the Navy, Secretary of the Air Force. 
They all pretty much say the same thing. We're hoping to get 
them out to all the contracting officers to let them know that, 
``Hey, this is a memo from the Secretary of the Navy and he 
says you don't need to come to me.'' By the way, these are 
valuable contracts. So if you can help make sure the whole 
contracting community gets those memos and gets the right legal 
interpretation, we think the chill that's happened, and it's 
been dramatic and negative, will be diminished.
    Do you commit to me to do that?
    Mr. Wong. Yes. We are actually doing that. I believe we 
passed them out at the last OSDBU meeting, so everybody has 
them.
    Senator Sullivan. Good. Well, I would continue to do that 
that all the meetings.
    Mr. Wong. And there's going to be additional follow-up. 
This is something, again that will be another shift change for 
the industry, but I think in a very, very good way.
    Again, thank you very much for those letters. It was 
tremendous.
    Senator Sullivan. Absolutely. I think it's going to help 
everybody, and I think the secretaries of the different 
military services were, once they looked with their lawyers at 
what I was talking about, I think they were fine and had to 
sign them.
    Let me ask one final question. It's just an educational 
element. You made a really important point that it's really 
hard for people to understand in the Congress, in the 
government, maybe even people--some of my constituents, is that 
you talked about how Alaska Regional Corporations, Native 
Corporations, Native Hawaiian entities, they play a role on the 
economy, but it's a broader role, and as you called it, even a 
broader responsibility for them. I think it's a really 
important point.
    Can you unpack that a little bit? It's not just an economic 
role, but in many ways a cultural role, a heritage role that is 
very important to this State and Hawaii and other places.
    Mr. Wong. Well, I won't speak for any of the Alaskans. I 
can just tell you from what I know and what I've felt and how 
I've been affected positively by that. So I'll do my best.
    I do think that they have a much more difficult 
responsibility and a much nobler mission than a typical 8(a). I 
was a typical 8(a). So I think one of the things that kind of--
I think also that ANCs, all of the Native Tribes, and all the 
Native companies, I think that they're often misunderstood by 
the public. In general, you have Government contracting. Around 
the Beltway, its like if you're fortunate to get into 
government contracting, somehow that's this big boondoggle, 
which is certainly not true. I think that with regard to 
contracting, that's the way that we fulfill the products and 
services that serve the public and protects the war fighter.
    Among there, I think that we have the 8(a) companies 
because historically these are underutilized and underserved 
communities. Even then, you look at that as simply like a set-
aside; but those businesses, when I was in them, I had to take 
care of my company, my employees, my family. If you look at the 
Alaska Natives, the best thing I can say is that my wife is 
from Japan, and I understand through her very much the value of 
honoring the past, the present, and the future. And I'm Chinese 
as well, and we were raised that way.
    But working with the Alaskans, from what I understand, this 
is the reason why ostensibly they have larger contracts is not 
so they can buy mansions on the Potomac, but instead they have 
a responsibility for economic development. They literally have 
to take care of not only the generations today, but also 
tomorrow, and they have to preserve the land.
    Senator Sullivan. The shareholders who, you know, I hate to 
say it, but in some communities are some of the poorest 
communities in the country.
    Mr. Wong. Yes. If I could digress a little bit, I took the 
opportunity to go to Nome. I understand that is not a village; 
it's a hub city. I feel that if I'm going to spend my time 
here, I want to do some good. I want to make every second 
count. So I'm a sales guy. So I want to make sure that the 
people that use our product use it well, right. I believe that 
if you have a product and it works, sometimes they'll tell 
somebody. If they have a product that doesn't work, they'll 
tell everybody.
    The challenge we have with the ANCs is that they're often 
misunderstood. Nobody really understands the noble mission and 
the grave responsibility they have to take care of everybody. 
So that's the simplest way that I can put it, and it doesn't do 
it justice, but I'm trying to make sure that people know that.
    So one of the things, for example, that I'm doing, Senator, 
is when I have an opportunity to meet the ANCs--I think I've 
met 7 out of 12. When I meet with the ANCs, I take a look at 
their marketing packages and their sales packages. In general, 
what I'm trying to get them to understand is what I would like 
to see, if I was a contracting officer, you have all of the 
information of how you take care of your generations.
    One of the things, I think, that would increase the sales 
potential for them, let the government contracting officer know 
that you share. Let them know that this $22 million cap or 
large amount, it doesn't just go back to Alaska. It stays in 
your community. Turn it into a vehicle so that the government 
contracting officer, it solves their problem. I have to get 
these piles of requisitions down as quickly as possible. In my 
opinion, I've been counseling the ANCs to say, ``Tell them that 
with this vehicle, the added capacity that you have allows the 
government contracting officer to protect the contractors that 
it wants under that umbrella.'' Let them know, for example, 
that in some cases you have 40 percent of the people on this 
contract that have nothing to do with Alaska. I'm very glad to 
work with them, and I think it changes the message and 
increases the education.
    Senator Sullivan. Great. Well, that's really impressive Mr. 
Wong, and I appreciate that. I think you have a good 
understanding of the uniqueness there and kind of the broader 
goals than just economic. I appreciate that. I think your 
testimony has been outstanding. So I want to thank you for 
that.
    Mr. Chairman, I'm done with my five minutes of questions.
    Chairman Risch. I'm glad we're not in Washington. They 
actually do measure five minutes.
    Senator Sullivan. I know, but I figured you were going to 
give me a little lead time here given that I'm in my own State.
    Chairman Risch. Well, thank you so much. I think that line 
of questioning was particularly helpful. Mr. Wong, thank you. 
It's good to know that what we're trying to accomplish here is 
in such competent hands. Thank you so much for being here; 
thank you so much for answering questions and your pledges to 
pursue the things that we'd like to see a little more focus on. 
Thank you so much.
    Mr. Wong. Thank you for having me.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Wong follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Risch. With that, we'll move to panel number two.
    Senator Sullivan, would you introduce the members of panel 
number two?
    Senator Sullivan. Sure. The next panel can take its 
position on the dais. As you're doing that, I'm going to take 
the opportunity to introduce our next panel, which I'm very 
pleased to have speak to the challenges and opportunities that 
we face here in Alaska in particular.
    So let me begin with Gabe Kompkoff. He is CEO of the 
Chugach Alaska Corporation. Gabe had previously served as 
president of Chugach's Commercial Division, member of the Board 
of Directors. Prior to this, he served as vice president at 
Bentall Kennedy Investment Management.
    Next we have Mr. Carl Marrs, who is the CEO of Old Harbor 
Native Corporation. Mr. Marrs has worked for Old Harbor Native 
Corporation since 2005 under his projects in Alaska and 
Washington, DC. Originally from Seldovia, Alaska, Carl grew up 
as a commercial fisherman. He's a proud United States Marine. 
Prior to joining Old Harbor, he had an extensive career at Cook 
Inlet Regional Corporation, one of the large regional 
corporations, CIRI.
    We also have Mr. Richard Peterson, who is the President of 
the Central Council of the Tlingit and Haida Indian Tribes of 
Alaska. As President, Mr. Peterson began developing a cultural 
immersion part in a language immersion daycare. He has helped 
the Tlingit and Haida Tribal Business Corporation secure their 
8(a) certification, which was a hugely important achievement. 
He serves on the Native American Rights Fund Board and the 
Alaska Federation of Natives Board and the Governor's Tribal 
Advisory Council.
    We also have Mr. Rolando Miranda, President of Miranda 
Electric, Inc. Since establishing Miranda Electric in 1981, Mr. 
Miranda has grown his business to 20 employees and has become 
an expert in the electrical, data, communications, fire alarm, 
life safety, and building sectors. His company attained its 
first Federal contract in 1999 and successfully graduated the 
8(a) program in 2009.
    Then we have the President of ChemTrack Alaska, an 8(a) 
small business company that does environmental engineering and 
construction. Carrie is the president and has been in the 
business in Alaska for 35 years. She brings unique expertise 
and experience to the field.
    So I want to thank everybody here for being here and we 
will begin with testimony from left to right. So, again, thank 
everybody. You have five minutes.
    Chairman Risch. That's a for real five minutes, not Senator 
Sullivan's five.
    Senator Sullivan. If you have a more extensive written 
statement, the committee will take that statement for the 
record.
    So, Carrie, why don't we begin with you?
    Chairman Risch. For those of you who don't know this, the 
way we do this in the Senate is there will be an official 
record transcript of this available for people who want it. 
There will be people who want it in Washington, DC. Our 
commitment is that we will include the full length of your 
testimony or anything else that you want to submit to us into 
that record. Thank you.
    With that, Carrie, go right ahead.

STATEMENT OF CARRIE JOKIEL, PRESIDENT, CHEMTRACK ALASKA, INC., 
                         ANCHORAGE, AK

    Ms. Jokiel. Thank you very much. Chairman Risch, Senator 
Sullivan, thank you for having me here today to testify. Though 
I am an individually-owned 8(a), I'm speaking under the realm 
of Economically Disadvantaged Women-owned Small Business today.
    I'm the President of ChemTrack Alaska. We're an 
environmental service company that cleans up dirty dirt around 
the State of Alaska, most of it Federal agencies. I'm also the 
managing member of ChemTrack/Cornerstone JV, which we newly 
created under the All Small Mentor-Protege Program. ChemTrack 
was formed in 1973 by my father, Sig Jokiel. I began working 
there in 2002, became a part in 2008, and majority owner in 
2010.
    We're an office of 9 to 15 people. We grow to 25 in the 
summer, depending on how much work we have. We played a large 
role in the Exxon Valdez oil spill and peaked at about 250 
employees at that time. As I said, I'm an Economically 
Disadvantaged Women-owned Small Business and individual 8(a).
    When I was asked to testify, the question that was posed to 
me was: ``Where did you think you would be in ten years into 
owning your own business?'' My immediate response was: ``A lot 
further than this.'' I'm obviously starting to lose my moxie. I 
feel as though I am questioning if my goals are attainable. I 
feel too focused maybe on advocacy and education instead of 
strategy and competition.
    ChemTrack has been around for over 40 years. We've put our 
houses in, 401(k)s, profits back into the company to stay 
alive. We're survivors. That said, I want to do more than 
survive. I want to thrive. I want to hire more people. I want 
to perform larger projects. I want to help put the women-owned 
small businesses on the map in this State.
    Over the years I've had three concerns, three challenges 
that have come around, and they're still here. It depends on 
the business cycle of the season as to which rears its head, 
but I'll start with the first one.
    That's that women-owned small businesses are 
underrepresented on multiple-award contracts. In 2017, the 
WIPP, Women Impacting Public Policy, they came out with a 
report where they looked at all sorts of different multiple-
award contracts. What they found is that some of them do have 
set-aside caps they've put in for socioeconomic designations. 
Three-quarters of those did not have any put in for women-owned 
small businesses. This was based and inspired on a study that 
was done by the U.S. Department of Commerce in 2016. That study 
found that women-owned businesses are 21 percent less likely to 
win a contract even when controlling for size, age, and past 
performance.
    ChemTrack is on a small business, multiple-award task order 
contract right now. We compete against four 8(a) ANC 
subsidiaries. We don't have the same infrastructure as ANC 8(a) 
subsidiaries. This contract expires in six months. I have been 
working with the Federal agency that I work with on this 
contract for over 18 months now to look at putting in a track 
for women-owned small businesses, so when it comes out to 
recompete, I could compete apples to apples. It would allow me 
to be more competitive and lined up with small business on our 
multiple-award contract here in the State of Alaska.
    The question that was posed to me was: If you could find a 
roadmap to help me do that, show me another contracting officer 
that's done that, that would be helpful. My question back is: 
Why am I having to do the legwork on that when it's a known 
national issue that there are policies in place to help meet 
the 5 percent goal for women-owned small businesses? They have 
only met them once in 16 years.
    This segues into my second concern, which is the onus of 
education of the programs having to be on the women-owned small 
business. The women-owned small business program has been 
around since 1994. So from 1994 through 2018 there's been many, 
many changes. From four industries originally being thought 
what were known small business to owner represented to the more 
accurate 45 mixed codes of women-owned small businesses are 
underrepresented and an additional 38 mixed codes for 
economically disadvantaged women-owned small businesses to be 
representative.
    We originally had a woman-owned small business repository 
where I put all my corporate documents, my passport to make 
sure that I'm a legit owner of this company. That's now been 
moved into the e-certified dot gov platform where we were the 
first designation to go through and be guinea-pigged into that 
program. All of these are education factors that I have to have 
with contracting officers.
    We've gone from rule of two to now being able to have sole-
source award authority. That award is used. It impacts 
differently than it does for an 8(a) company.
    So over the 10 years of educating folks, I have had 
conversations with different Federal agencies, small business 
offices. I've written and sent press releases, white papers to 
chiefs of contracting and contracting officers. I've 
facilitated meetings between the SBA and Federal agencies, the 
chief of contracting officers to create more of a climate for 
women-owned small businesses to take part in our Federal 
contracting arena here in the State.
    This gets me into my third concern. Okay, so we get the 
work. How do we finance it? Lending access to capital is a real 
issue for women-owned small businesses. Part of the gender pay 
gap problem is that when we receive less income over our 
careers, this allows us less leverage for receiving loan 
amounts. As a 39-year-old single woman, they often want to see 
guarantors on our loans. My father shouldn't have to sign on my 
loan anymore. I run the business. But he probably would.
    Venture capital----
    Senator Sullivan. Is he here?
    Ms. Jokiel. He's here.
    Venture capital funding is at a minimum for women. So the 
SBA bombs. It ties up our equipment. It ties up our building 
for ten years. There needs to be a change to that. That makes 
it difficult for me to look for other lending opportunities. 
Traditional lines of credit, they focus on our accounts 
receivable. So if I have a job down on the Aleutian Chain, and 
I've got a barge that's at 30,000 bucks a day, that doesn't 
help me with the beginning part of my project to get out there. 
I don't have an invoice filling out yet, so I can't use my 
accounts receivable line of credit yet.
    I'd like to see more focus on mobilization loans and 
possibly the Federal contracting use of the asset to offset 
being able to get a mobilization loan to help the projects.
    Quickly--I know I'm almost at my five minutes, I've timed 
myself about ten times. I do want to talk about the successes, 
though, because I think that's important for you to hear. The 
Mentor-Protege Program being opened up to All Small businesses, 
that was a really great move. I started a joint JV less than a 
year ago. We've done market research in Hawaii for future work. 
We bid on four projects from a short list and received our 
first sole-source. That was very positive.
    The ability for a JV to use each individual company's 
experience as combined past performance was also very huge. It 
helped remove that catch-22. So that's been wonderful for us. 
Also, the addition of similarly situated entities to meet 
performance goals, that's been very useful. I plan on using 
that in the future, which means if there's a women-owned small 
business target that I need to get and I can't do it all 
myself, I can bring in another women-owned small business to 
help me, which also raises the table as a whole women-owned 
small businesses into the market.
    Thank you so much for letting me testify. I appreciate it.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you so much. Appreciate that.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Jokiel follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Risch. Mr. Kompkoff, the floor is yours.

 STATEMENT OF GABE KOMPKOFF, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, CHUGACH 
               ALASKA CORPORATION, ANCHORAGE, AK

    Mr. Kompkoff. Thank you Chairman Risch, Senator Sullivan. 
Have we seen Senator Murkowski come in yet?
    Senator Sullivan. I think she's probably still struggling 
with flight issues. I know she's trying to get here.
    Mr. Kompkoff. Thank you for everyone who has come such a 
long way to participate in this important discussion. It's my 
privilege to testify before you, discussion opportunities and 
challenges of the Small Business Administration Federal 
contracting programs, in particular the 8(a) business 
development program.
    My name is Gabe Kompkoff. I'm a shareholder of Chugach 
Alaska Corporation, and I also have the privilege to serve as 
the Chief Executive Officer. It's incredible to think about how 
far Chugach has come over the last 45 years in our history. It 
began before I was born when the Alaska Native Claims 
Settlement Act was passed in 1971. The Act was passed as an 
attempt to settle land claim disputes in this State.
    As you commented on, Chairman, we had the same issue in our 
region trying to select land. Most of it had already been 
selected by the Federal Government. When we looked at our map, 
we had a choice of glacier and mountaintops. It took us until 
1982 to have a subsequent settlement with the Federal 
Government before we had some semblance of a just settlement of 
land selection. So we feel your pain in Idaho as well as in our 
small little nation.
    What was amazing about this is the Alaska Native Claims 
Settlement Act was a new model of economic development 
opportunity that was a chance to try something different in the 
tribal reservation system. Overnight, after this Act was 
passed, we took the elders from our region, respected leaders 
from our region who were subsistence hunters, great fisherman 
and women, and they were elected to lead our companies in a 
boardroom. It was an amazing experience if you look at that at 
that time. Despite possessing little or no business experience, 
they understood the importance of building a foundation that 
would buy opportunities for that generation of shareholders and 
into perpetuity in the future.
    My uncle, who was the former chief of the Village of 
Tatitlek, would always talk about taking care of the next seven 
generations. That's how we think of things. Our business went 
through valleys and peaks. Our early investments in the timber 
and fishing processing industry were devastated by the Exxon 
Valdez oil spill and eventually led us to declare bankruptcy in 
1991.
    Under the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, it was 
recognized that Alaska Native Corporations were going to be 
owned by historically disadvantaged people. This recognition in 
ANCSA was linked through the modification of the SBA's 8(a) 
program through changes in 1988. So those changes were a 
significant link in the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act.
    It allowed us to participate as minority-owned economically 
disadvantaged businesses. Based on those laws passed, we became 
eligible to negotiate Federal contracts of any size through to 
direct award and compete on contracts reserved for small 
businesses and own more than one 8(a) company. The SBA's 
business development proved to be the missing link to ANCSA in 
that it provided an economic engine for all ANCs, including 
Chugach, to generate profits that benefited entire communities 
of Alaska Native shareholders.
    It allowed Chugach to rebuild from our bankruptcy and grow 
in the healthy Federal Government contracting business. When I 
look back and I think about it, we were not trained. We did not 
have MBAs sitting in our boardrooms. We did not have folks that 
had the privilege of higher education to lead these 
organizations. We had to bootstrap it just like all the 
generations before us. When you look at our entry into the SBA 
8(a) program, it allowed us to learn the business skills and 
actually build processes, good processes and ways that allowed 
us to build a sales team and understand what working capital 
meant and expand to a diverse portfolio of businesses.
    The 8(a) program served its intended purpose to be that 
stepping-stone, affording small disadvantaged businesses the 
opportunity to compete in the Federal marketplace. In 2016 the 
12 ANCSA regional corporations brought in 8.2 billion in 
revenue; 24 percent of that revenue was derived from 8(a) 
Federal contracting. That shows that the ANCSA regional 
corporations are responsible utilizing the 8(a) program to 
ensure and diversify our businesses and position ourselves to 
compete in the full and open competitive marketplace.
    The 8(a) program is not only an economic tool for the 
individuals but it drives the people whose social and economic 
well-being are enriched by revenue generated by the 
corporations.
    As a Chugach shareholder, I had the opportunity to earn a 
scholarship for my undergraduate degree from the Chugach 
Heritage Foundation. Without the backing of the Heritage 
Foundation, I would not have been able to afford to go to 
school. My family's livelihood was tied to fish in Prince 
William Sound, and our fishing business was devastated at the 
same time the oil spill devastated Chugach's fish processing 
business. Because of Chugach's support, I was able to earn my 
bachelor's degree, my master's degree, and eventually serve on 
the board of directors before being appointed as a leader of 
the organization.
    I'm proud to say that now we have endowed our foundation so 
that every single shareholder and descendant that applies for a 
scholarship will receive a scholarship from now into the 
future.
    John Brockman (ph), the Chugach founder, once said that he 
hoped the younger and current generations understood that he 
and his fellow founders fought hard for the corporations. Now 
more than ever I understand and appreciate their dedication. I 
feel pride in knowing that they and their sacrifices are part 
of our heritage. I'm very proud to continue their cause. That's 
why I'm here today.
    While the SBA's Federal contracting programs are a success 
story for Native communities, our U.S. economy and the agencies 
we serve through this vehicle, ANCs still have a long way to go 
in helping to more fully address the serious economic and 
social issues and problems that are in our communities. We 
believe maintaining a healthy Federal contracting assistance 
program for small and disadvantaged businesses is critical to 
our success, and we commend the efforts of the committee and 
advocates such as Senator Sullivan and Senator Murkowski, 
Congressmen Young, to keep the SBA moving in the right 
direction.
    We believe that protecting small business set-asides, 
contracts from bundling, strengthening the PCR program, and 
ensuring leadership is in place at the SBA office are important 
pillars to moving in the right direction. As you know, 
supporting and empowering small business and entrepreneurship 
is part of the fabric of this country. We're proud to be part 
of that legacy.
    Thank you.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you very much.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Kompkoff follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Risch. Mr. Marrs, the floor is yours.

 STATEMENT OF CARL MARRS, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, OLD HARBOR 
               NATIVE CORPORATION, ANCHORAGE, AK

    Mr. Marrs. Chairman Risch and Senator Sullivan----
    Chairman Risch. I think you need to push the button.
    Mr. Marrs. How is that?
    Chairman Risch. That's better.
    Mr. Marrs. Thank you. I want to thank you for inviting me 
to testify here today. My name is Carl Marrs. I'm proud to say 
that I'm an Alaska Native, and have over the past 40-plus years 
served the Alaska Native communities in various roles and 
offices. I'm presently the Chief Executive Officer for Old 
Harbor Native Corporation, which represents one of the small 
villages on Kodiak Island, Alaska.
    I'm here today to testify on the opportunities, the 
challenges we as Alaska Natives face with the Small Business 
Administration Federal contracting program. Congress enacted 
the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, ANCSA, in 1971 to 
accomplish a fair and just settlement of the original land 
claims for Alaska Natives. Section 2 of ANCSA mandates that 
this settlement should be accomplished in conforming with the 
real economic and social needs of Natives.
    ANCSA required Alaska Native Corporations--Alaska Natives 
to form corporations to participate in the settlement. Almost 
immediately it became apparent that the corporate form did not 
always address the real economic social needs of Natives.
    Congress recognized the critical role the SBA 8(a) program 
has and will play for Alaska Native Corporations and their 
shareholders through amendments to ANCSA in 1988, 1993, 1998, 
and 2002, all of which were designed to permit and encourage 
Alaska Native Corporations to participate in the SBA's 8(a) 
program. Congress recognized that Alaska Native Corporations 
and their shareholders have traditionally been and are 
economically and socially disadvantaged and that the Federal 
Government has a vested interest in providing them with a 
process by which they can grow economically to a level equal to 
other business entities that had not had the limitation, 
restrictions, and disadvantages experienced by Alaska Natives, 
American Indians, and Native Hawaiians.
    Amending ANCSA to change and expand the Alaska Native 
participation in the Section 8(a) program, Congress affirmed 
that it was not just regulating Federal procurement in small 
business concerns, but exercising its constitutional authority 
to regulate commerce with Indian tribes. For example, in 2002 
Congress amended ANCSA to confirm the intent of Congress that 
Federal procurement programs for tribes and Alaska Native 
Corporations are enacted pursuant to the authority under 
Article 1, Section 8 of the United States Constitution 
authorizing Congress to regulate commerce with the Indian 
tribes.
    The problem, as I see it, is not with Congress as its tried 
through many attempts to set up their intent. The problem lies 
with the Administration and its agencies that write regulations 
to carry out congressional intent. Just by virtue of the many 
times that we have been back to Congress to have Congress 
reaffirm commitments to Alaska Natives, American Indians, and 
Native Hawaiians shows that what Congress said is often 
interpreted by agencies in a way that at best demonstrates a 
reluctance to implement Congress' intent to benefit the 
recipients of such legislation, or at its worse, flies directly 
in the face of that intent.
    I've submitted 16 pages of written testimony to the 
committee that lays out our concerns with the Section 8(a) 
program specifically and Federal contracting in general and 
suggest ways of solving most of those problems; but in order 
for us to move forward, we need commitments not just from 
Congress as we have received in the past, but commitments of 
the Administration and its agencies to carry out your 
congressional intent.
    This process of agency interpretation being different from 
congressional intent is very stressful and expensive for both 
the government and the Native corporations. It seems to us that 
even when we have promises from the United States of America to 
carry out its obligations to America's First People, there are 
tiers and tiers of bureaucrats that make the process burdensome 
and expensive, that they make the program fail or make us as 
Alaska Natives and government contractors look bad.
    We need solutions and not more discussion that leads 
nowhere. We're not asking for a government handout. We do our 
job and we do them well. When we have contracts, we normally 
save the government dollars on the work we do. We simply want 
to recognize the congressional intent behind ANCSA and the 
inclusion of Alaska Natives in the 8(a) program, a path forward 
allowing the United States Government to fulfill its fiduciary 
obligation to Alaska Natives and implement this congressional 
intent and goal for economic self-sufficiency of Alaska 
Natives.
    Sorry, I ran out of paper. I forgot that last page. It's 
somewhere here.
    In conclusion, I know the committee is aware that Alaska 
Natives are rich in culture and tradition, but have very 
limited economic means. Alaska Natives and American Indians are 
still the poorest of the poor in the Nation. These suggestions 
that we are giving the committee are not given lightly, and as 
you have heard and will hear from other presenters today, there 
are real problems and we have to have real solutions.
    I thank the committee for the opportunity to testify. Thank 
our good Senator Sullivan, Senator Murkowski, and Congressman 
Young for their great work on this important issue. I would be 
pleased to answer questions from the committee.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you very much, Mr. Marrs. I think I 
can speak for Senator Sullivan and I both. We are no strangers 
to the difficulty of the laws we passed falling into the 
bureaucracy and then coming out looking a lot different than 
what they began. There's a good--one of the roles of this 
committee, and virtually every committee, is oversight, to see 
how those laws are actually working on the ground. Your 68 
suggestions will be looked at, I guarantee you. We'll do our 
best to try to make the law work. We have a shining example. 
Senator Sullivan has just been dogged in getting the 
bureaucracy to do what they were supposed to do in a recent 
example. I know everyone in Alaska is familiar with that. 
That's the kind of thing we do in oversight. That's why we're 
here. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Marrs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Marrs follows:]
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    Chairman Risch. Mr. Peterson, the floor is yours.

   STATEMENT OF RICHARD PETERSON, PRESIDENT, CENTRAL COUNCIL 
       TLINGIT HAIDA INDIAN TRIBES OF ALASKA, JUNEAU, AK

    Mr. Peterson. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon, and I 
want to extend my appreciation to you, Mr. Chair, and 
especially to Senator Sullivan for the invitation to testify 
here today.
    For your benefit and that of the Internal Revenue Service, 
my name is Richard Peterson, but I go by Chal Yee Eesh. I am a 
Tlingit from the Kaagwaantaan clan, Eagle's Nest House. I grew 
up in the small village of Kasaan, southern tip of Prince of 
Wales Island. I was just recently in April unanimously 
reelected for my third term as President of Tlingit and Haida 
and by 100 delegates that make up our governing body. I have 
been in this position now since 2014.
    I'm excited to be here to speak, I think, with the tribal 
voice. As my brethren Alaska Natives speak mostly for the ANCs, 
I wanted to remind folks that the tribes also participate very 
strongly in this program. It extends many benefits to our 
communities. Senator Sullivan has pointed out quite a bit today 
that many of your communities in Alaska are very economically 
distressed. Really, it's these programs that help us to--
although we're very rich in culture, we are economically 
distressed and it's these programs that really help us and help 
us supplement some of the programs that we administer through 
the Federal Government now.
    Tlingit and Haida is a sovereign tribal government with 
over 30,000 citizens worldwide, the majority of which are in 
Alaska. We enjoy a government-to-government relationship with 
the United States. Again, I appreciate this opportunity to 
testify and share some of the challenges faced by Tlingit and 
Haida and other tribes and Native organizations as we pursue 
and administer contracts with the Federal Government.
    As my colleague to my right mentioned, when we get these 
contracts, we often do it and save the government money. So 
we're very proud of that and proud of our contribution to this 
great nation when we administer these contracts. So we 
appreciate that.
    After decades of experience in contracting with the United 
States, Tlingit and Haida is today actively engaged in Federal 
contracting through our Tlingit and Haida Tribal Business 
Corporation. We refer to it as THTBC. We formed THTBC as a 
federally chartered Section 17 tribal business under the 
Department of Interior. It's wholly owned by Tlingit and Haida. 
It has over a dozen subsidiaries that operate as LLCs engaged 
in multiple lines of business.
    The sole mission of the THTBC is to engage in, carry on, 
and conduct business to improve the economic condition of our 
tribes and citizens. THTBC is a highly diversified family of 
8(a), HUBZone, large businesses, Mentor-Protege agreements, 
joint ventures, and small business companies. Our companies are 
engaged in many areas of government contracting, including 
facility searches, base operations, aircraft repair and 
maintenance, construction management, seaport operations and 
maintenance, and consulting and managing services, computer 
systems and data processing, IT engineering and cybersecurity 
services, solid waste collection, site security, property 
management, and maintenance services, and workforce training 
programs.
    Our companies are engaged in providing contract services 
from Colorado to West Virginia, from Florida to Arkansas, and 
from Washington State to Cuba, to Washington, DC and many 
places in between. We have served many military bases and, 
again, that's something that we pride ourselves on greatly.
    I have several brief comments on SBA policy and practice. 
Tlingit and Haida staff have reported to me that the recent 
tribal consultation held by SBA in Anchorage in early May was 
one of the best they've participated in. We hope SBA will 
increase its good efforts to streamline and facilitate its 
application process. Right now we find that application process 
fairly cumbersome. We ask that SBA mitigate against disruptive 
changes in HUBZone administration after each new census is 
calculated every decade.
    We request that SBA consider merging the All Small and the 
8(a) Mentor-Protege Program into one program. We believe SBA 
should streamline its approval process when tribally owned 
companies change their management because the tribe remains the 
owner and beneficiary. We ask SBA to consider allowing mentors 
to have more than three proteges at one time.
    In conclusion, I want to give a special thank you again to 
Senator Sullivan for all you have done to ensure that Section 
811, Federal approval authority, is streamlined for contracts 
from 22 to 93 million. It makes common sense to delegate that 
authority from the head of agency to lower-level officials who 
are closer to the facts and circumstances of each approval 
decision.
    With that, I would, again, close with our traditional words 
in Tlingit and Haida of gratitude, Gunalcheech, Haw'an. Thank 
you for inviting me to share my tribe's perspective on these 
issues. Please let me know if you have any questions.
    Chairman Risch. Mr. Peterson, you made a couple of specific 
suggestions there at the end. Do you have details of that in 
your written testimony and, if not, could you provide that? I'm 
going to leave the record open for a couple of weeks at the 
end.
    Mr. Peterson. Yes, sir. We will.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you very much.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Peterson follows:]
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    Chairman Risch. Mr. Miranda, you're up.

  STATEMENT OF ROLANDO MIRANDA, PRESIDENT, MIRANDA ELECTRIC, 
                      INC., FAIRBANKS, AK

    Mr. Miranda. Good afternoon, Chairman Risch and Senator 
Sullivan. My name is Rolando Miranda, but you can call me 
Rollie. I'm the founder and president of Miranda Electric.
    I'm originally from the Philippines and became a 
naturalized American citizen in Hawaii then went on to graduate 
from high school in San Francisco. Shortly after that I 
enlisted in the U.S. Air Force and was stationed at Eielson Air 
Force Base where I served for six years as an electrician and 
separated in 1981. I continued in the Air National Guard for 
four years.
    I started Miranda Electric in 1981, working evenings and 
weekends to earn additional income, while working full time for 
the Federal Government as a facilities service electrician. I 
wanted to make Miranda Electric my sole job, so I started 
soliciting to the SABER contractor Eielson Air Force Base. It 
took a few years before I was able to convince them to let me 
look at a project, and when they did, I won my first Federal 
subcontract and resigned from Federal service.
    I heard about the SBA program through a seminar held in 
Fairbanks and reached out to learn about more opportunities. As 
you know, the 8(a) program helps social and economically 
disadvantaged businesses gain access to Federal contracts. I 
applied and was accepted in a program in 2001 and graduated in 
2009. I found the training I need to learn Federal contracting 
language. I received my Federal contracting certificate from 
George Washington University at a reduced cost offered by the 
SBA.
    I used the savings to travel between North Pole and 
Anchorage for the five courses. I went from having four 
employees at enrollment to 35 at graduation. I was able to use 
the training to further myself with Miranda Electric. Since my 
graduation, my largest single Federal subcontract award is 
about $10 million. The 8(a) program deserves some credit for my 
success.
    I didn't receive much in prime contracts while in the 
program. The majority was subcontracts. I believe that once 
entered into the program, I would be awarded contracts. This 
was never told me directly by the SBA, but I was under the 
impression I would get that. This meant that receiving awards 
by signing up needs to be explained.
    I recently enrolled in the SBA's Emerging Leaders 
Initiative in April. It is a six-month program that provides 
free entrepreneurial education and training for executives of 
companies that are poised for growth and potential job 
creators. While I find this initiative valuable, the entities 
in the program have a wide variety of experience.
    Chairman Risch. Rollie, excuse us just a minute. This is a 
unique experience for me because usually I call her Madam 
Chairman. Senator, I'm sorry you missed the enlightened and 
profound remarks of Senator Sullivan. We'll be happy to repeat 
them, but it will have to be later. Mr. Miranda is just 
finishing up on this fine panel. Then we're going to open it up 
to questions. Let's let him finish, and then you can give us 
your opening remarks.
    Mr. Miranda. Thank you for being here Senator Murkowski.
    While I find this initiative valuable, the entities on the 
program have a wide variety of experience. It might be more 
helpful to all those participating to be grouped with companies 
that have similar experience. I have been in business for 
almost 40 years, and while I am not an expert, I have 
participated in Federal contracts for over 15 years and have 
been successful. It is much different for someone just 
learning.
    In 2013, I self-certified as a service-disabled veteran-
owned small business. It allows me to bid for set-aside 
contracts and receive sole-source awards. Today I have not 
received any sole-source awards. My status helps me meet SBA 
goals, but it has not resulted in a prime contract for Miranda 
Electric. I have not been able to mark my status directly at 
Fort Wainwright and Eielson, which was recommended by the SBA. 
I have reached out repeatedly. Even as a veteran at a military 
installation, I'm lucky to get a call back for my efforts.
    I have not seen veteran opportunities in the Federal 
Business Opportunities website for my local area, and with all 
the work in Alaska, you would think there would be one set-
aside for veterans. I'm not sure if other veterans are 
experiencing this.
    In the past, I won a prime contract--I won a bid for a 
prime contract to perform as the subcontractor, so it could 
meet its small business goals. I even received my letter of 
intent and engaged in the contract process. Then, without 
explanation, the prime contractor went with another 
subcontractor. This leads me to believe that the prime 
subcontractor checked the box naming Miranda Electric as a key 
veteran subcontractor to win the project, then dropped us and 
went with a nonveteran company once the award was given. I can 
never recover the money and time I spent preparing this 
contract. This is just one example of my experiences.
    I contacted the SBA and was advised to contact the 
contracting officer. After contacting the CO, I was told they 
couldn't have any involvement in settling a case. I had to take 
it up with the prime. There needs to be recourse for 
misbehaving primes as well as a verification and follow-up from 
contracting officers to ensure the contracts are using the 
subcontractors listed on their bid at the time of award and 
meeting their goals to win the project.
    I believe the SBA can help. I know the SBA can't solve all 
the problems, and I don't think I'm the only company 
experiencing these issues. Can the SBA partner educate their 
fellow agencies to ensure an honest process? I think these 
partnerships can go a long way for small businesses like mine.
    Lastly, I would like the SBA to look at contracts which 
require the use of PLA agreements. I don't know how this helps 
any small business who does not have a PLA, project labor 
agreements. The PLA organizations are great for those employees 
facing bad working conditions from bad employers. However, 
there are many of us who really care about our employees, and I 
am one of them. Can the SBA find a solution where the employee 
is protected, but the small business isn't automatically 
counted out of obtaining a bid based on the use of a PLA?
    I'm very thankful for the opportunity and assistance the 
SBA has provided me and my business to get to where I am today. 
The 8(a) program, the emerging leaders initiative, and self-
certification as a disabled veteran were made possible by the 
SBA. Again, I want to reiterate my appreciation for the SBA and 
the many opportunities I've gained. Like any businesses, 
including my own, there's always room for improvement. With 
that, I thank you for the opportunity to testify today.
    Chairman Risch. Mr. Miranda, thank you very much. We 
appreciate the specificity that you had regarding those issues. 
We'll include those in the record. I think those are things 
that really deserve to be reviewed by this committee and by the 
SBA because there are some very specific examples there that 
are troubling. Thank you so much.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Miranda follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Risch. With that, Senator Murkowski.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 
                             ALASKA

    Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've been 
around the Senate long enough to know that you don't come into 
a hearing over an hour late and expect to give an opening, so 
I'm not going to give one. I'm going to thank you for being 
here as Chairman of the Small Business Committee. I'm going to 
thank those who have traveled also to be with us, Mr. Wong, and 
thank him for the work that he has done, as well as that of 
Jeremy Field as our Region 10 administrator.
    Thank you to those who have provided testimony here in 
person today and the opportunity for us to query you further so 
that we can build this record out. I think you know, Mr. 
Chairman, Senator Sullivan has educated you well on this. We 
are a State where we're all about small business. That is what 
we do in this State. So finding the ways that we can best help, 
whether it is through our women-owned, or disabled veterans, 
our service-disabled veterans, whether it's our ANCs, our 
tribes.
    So the opportunity to have this hearing here in Anchorage 
today is greatly, greatly appreciated. I would have been here 
sooner, but my plane was diverted due to the practicing Blue 
Angels.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you, Senator Murkowski. I can report 
to you, and I think Senator Sullivan would agree, that we've 
had an excellent hearing today and heard some very specific 
suggestions. When you get the transcript of this with the 
testimony plus the other items that people have said they're 
going to submit for the record, I think you're going to find it 
very enlightening and target rich for some more work by this 
committee.
    Thank you so much.
    Senator Sullivan for questions.
    Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's great to 
see my friend and colleague Senator Murkowski here. We're very 
focused and aligned back in the Senate on a lot of these 
issues, all of us are.
    I'll start with a bit of a hard question, but I think an 
important one that I'm going to throw out to the entire panel 
for any of you or all of you. You do hear detractors that 
government contracting programs such as the 8(a) program or 
programs for disadvantaged populations or veterans, some people 
criticize them as a government handout. It's certainly not my 
view, but you do hear the criticism. And that taxpayer dollars 
aren't getting a good value for the awarded contract, but, 
again, what this hearing is meant to do is hear from you. 
You're on the front lines. You, I'm sure, have a view on that 
kind of criticism.
    Would you care, any or all of you, to give an example or 
address that these are actually good for the economy, good for 
the country; they're not a handout. They're programs that are 
good--result in good stewards of the taxpayer dollars.
    Chairman Risch. Who wants to go first?
    Mr. Kompkoff. I can go first.
    Chairman Risch. You don't want to yield to the lady on the 
panel?
    Mr. Kompkoff. I'll yield.
    Ms. Jokiel. I will address that. I'm an economically 
disadvantaged women-owned small business. That's the panel that 
I was coming here to speak under, that frame. I'm also an 
individually owned 8(a). So in order for me to receive that, I 
had to write a preponderance of evidence and show 
discrimination in my field. In order to do that, I had to have 
affidavits to go along with it.
    So I had several conversations with folks in different 
industries about the affidavits that I wanted to have, and one 
was with my mentor. He is my neighbor across the street. Very 
successful businessman here in town, He said: What about an 
even playing field? Why should we have to have a special 
designation for you if you've had discrimination in the 
industry or as a woman-owned small business in order to receive 
this 8(a)? I said: Listen, if you can run a seven-minute mile, 
I can run a seven-minute mile. You are 200 meters ahead of me 
just the way it is. What this does is allow me to get up those 
200 meters and run the same seven-minute mile as you and have 
the same opportunity as you do. That's why it's important.
    He wrote the affidavit for me. He recognized that there is 
discrimination in issues within the women-owned small business 
arena. I totally got my individual 8(a), which again is not 
what I'm here to speak under, because I do think there's a lot 
of room for improvement in our women-owned small business 
program for Federal contracting to come to that arena. So 
that's my response.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you.
    Mr. Kompkoff, you seemed anxious to get your two cents 
worth in here. You're up.
    Mr. Kompkoff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We've heard that 
quite a bit as we run around in circles and run around the 
competitive marketplace, that you all are just getting a 
handout. What is interesting is that even if it's a direct 
award, we have to perform the work. We actually have to get the 
job done.
    What is amazing, if you look at all the organizations that 
are at the table, is that we continue to win follow-on work 
based on our performance record. I think if you just listen to 
the tenor of the conversation today, the testimony today, there 
is a deep passion coming through the loudspeaker here. That 
passion--you know, some of the larger contractors, the kind of 
work that we do is one little segment of work. You're not 
hearing the excitement and passion about servicing the war 
fighter or going above and beyond to service the customer.
    What is interesting is we've looked at our organization. We 
have this standard business metric that many other 
organizations have. We look at retention rates of employees. 
What we're finding is that the mission of our organization, 
this thing that's bigger than ourselves, this organization 
that's supposed to last forever, this organization that is 
caretaking a community of people that is trying to live up to 
this promise that was the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act.
    Our employees are excited to be in our organization. 
They're excited to spend more time with us than they do with 
their families. Time and time again when I go out to Fort Meade 
or I go out to some of our distant project sites that don't see 
folks from Alaska very often and we talk about our core values 
of our business on these little cards that we hand out to 
everybody that are derived from our Alaska Native values, I see 
them on the walls. I go into these field offices up on Whidbey 
Island, and there are all of our Native core values sitting 
there right in the doorway.
    Then I talk to the contracting officers and some of the 
folks that we had on the site. So we'll take over a contract 
from a prior company, and when we run through who we are and 
what we stand for and what we're about and they change that 
logo on their hat, they stand up a little taller and they're a 
little more excited to go to work every day. They put in an 
extra mile for that customer. So we believe the customer is 
receiving better value for the type of work we do out there.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you very much. Anyone else want to 
take a run at it? Mr. Peterson.
    Mr. Peterson. It's almost dangerous to follow Mr. Kompkoff 
because a lot of what he said reflects what I wanted to say.
    A couple things, I really resent that idea of this welfare 
because, again, we have to deliver. When we get these 
contracts, we have to perform at the highest standards and we 
do. I'm really excited to say that some of the contracts that 
we've gotten recently have gained a lot of media attention. It 
was a full-on compete. It was our quality of our work and our 
pricing that won the day. I think that could be said for any 
one of my colleagues here.
    As Mr. Kompkoff said, when we visit out sites, the 
employees are so proud that they work for an Alaska Native 
tribe, that they're giving back. They feel like they have a 
social piece there. Not only are they doing a job for their 
country which they're proud of, but it brings back to a tribe 
in Alaska where they know we're underserved, where they know 
that we're economically depressed.
    And I want to say something else. Our tribal values are 
reflected in the work we do. As many of you probably know, 
maybe you don't, Alaska Native, Native Americans are the 
highest serving in the military. In fact, Alaska Natives are 
the highest serving. I think that's a reflection of our 
commitment to our country.
    So when we do government contracting, it's kind of that 
same commitment. It's that same reflection of how we feel about 
doing this good work and that we're helping stand up our 
country, and we're doing it responsibly. We're delivering the 
best product. We're not overcharging. It's very competitive. 
Otherwise, without these programs we would not be able to 
compete against the Lockheed Martins, the Boeings, and so on. 
This really just kind of levels the playing field.
    When you look at it, we're still only fighting for a 
fraction of government contracting. In fact, because of the SBA 
and the Mentor-Protege Program, we're able to work with those 
companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and others and get that 
experience. So it's a great program.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you. Mr. Marrs.
    Mr. Marrs. Well, I think they've covered basically the 
underlying fact of we do a lot of work for the government at a 
great price. A lot of it's competitive bid among ourselves. The 
thing that gets me is there are so many rules within all these 
regulations by all the different agencies that make it very 
difficult for us to compete in that environment. For every bid 
we do, it costs us between 20 and $50,000 for a bid. It comes 
out of the government and then it will sit there for a year, if 
not longer in a lot of cases. It's a detriment with all these 
regulations that we have to deal with to try and get work done.
    People that say, you know, these are handouts. They're not 
a handout. No, we deserve it. We were the first people in 
America. We are the most--the poorest, most repressed group of 
people in America even today. Why is that? Just trying to get a 
leg up on a fair basis, the system just isn't fair in that 
regard because, like I tried to say in the testimony, the 
intent of Congress has been very strong of how these programs 
should work. The agencies find ways to make it absolutely 
difficult to carry out that intent. We need to fix that 
problem.
    We need these agencies that understand. Now, now SBA is 
trying. They're trying hard. But when you get through all of 
these other agencies--it's like a top-secret clearance. It's a 
double-edged sword here. You can't file for a top-secret 
clearance unless you have that job. You don't get that job, you 
don't get a top-secret clearance. I mean, it's absolutely 
ludicrous.
    In fact, we lost a major contract because we were waiting 
for a top-secret clearance. It took 18 months to get to that 
point for that particular one. By then the contracting officer 
gave it to somebody else because we couldn't--we eventually got 
the top secret clearance. There was no problem; it just took 18 
months to get there.
    Every agency has a different criteria for the top-secret 
clearance. I mean, why is that? It's the same government. I 
mean, it's sort of stupid in my opinion. I've said enough.
    Chairman Risch. I don't think there's anybody up here that 
disagrees with you on that. Let me tell you, we're working on 
that. There is a specific office within the SBA called the 
Office of Advocacy. Their job is specifically to attack exactly 
what you're talking about. That is, the onerous things 
different agencies do that adversely affects small businesses.
    Since I've taken over as chairman, we have done our best to 
stand up even better the Office of Advocacy and make them truly 
the independent agency they're supposed to be to say: Hey, 
stop. Think about what you're doing here to small businesses. 
Sometimes we're successful, sometimes we're not, but we will 
keep after that. I commit that to you.
    Mr. Miranda, did you want to take a run at this?
    Mr. Miranda. There's a myth to that, that you automatically 
get this and that, you know. I can honestly say that I have 
worked really hard to get what I have. Really, it was the 
education I got from the 8(a) program.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you so much. Senator Sullivan.
    Senator Sullivan. Sure, Mr. Chairman. I had a question for 
Mr. Peterson. It's two questions and it relates to your 
testimony, but one question is: Can you describe a little bit 
of the difference--we've talked about ANCs and then we were 
talking about tribally owned businesses and a little bit of the 
difference as you see them. Tlingit Haida has a proud tradition 
as you've talked about. Then, your participation in the HUBZone 
program, and how did you get interested in that, and what 
perceived benefit did you see from that program? As you saw, I 
asked the Administrator a lot about that program in the first 
panel, but having someone who's worked through it and seen the 
pros and cons and ways to improve it, if you have any view on 
that, that would be helpful as well.
    Mr. Peterson. Well, thank you, Senator. I was sitting in 
the back during that first panel and wishing I was able to 
answer for him. I've got a lot to say on that. The HUBZone, I 
think, can be a very great program, but it's frustrating 
because in Alaska we're able--most of the state's a HUBZone, 
but a lot of the work we do is outside of the State, onsite, 
government.
    So those employees have to be certified to live in a 
HUBZone. If 35 percent of those employees have to live in a 
HUBZone, if they move or that HUBZone moves, we're SOL. And 
really we would like to see kind of like a three-year----
    Chairman Risch. For the record, what does that stand for?
    Mr. Peterson. Short on luck. You almost made me sweat 
there. I have to be careful with my village. It will come out, 
I'm sorry. Am I red?
    Anyhow, we would like to see some changes in that HUBZone 
program. If we can get certified and then have a three-year 
certification period, then the program is great; but in Alaska 
most of it's a HUBZone, so we have gotten creative, I guess, 
where we've started businesses in Juneau, for example. We've 
gotten into security, food service, maintenance, property, and 
then all of our employees are HUBZone. It's great. It helps us 
meet that 35 percent. Again, even when it's a struggle.
    It feels a little disingenuous when really we're trying to 
do the government a good service in those onsite contracts. So, 
you know, if we could get certified, at the time of 
certification we meet that criteria, but, again, because an 
employee moves to a better neighborhood, a different 
neighborhood, the HUBZone actually moves. In the Lower 48 a 
HUBZone could be one block. Then you go over two blocks down 
and it's not a HUBZone. So it makes it very difficult to 
recruit and retain employees. It's just very cumbersome.
    I hate to throw this at the government and say it's more of 
your bureaucracy, but it really is. I know looking at our 
wonderful delegation and our chair, we want to streamline 
things so that we can work smarter, not harder.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you. It's 35 percent. I'm sure some 
bureaucrat on the banks of the Potomac had a great idea of how 
to get 35 percent.
    Mr. Peterson. Is that one of those mansions again? I 
haven't seen those mansions.
    Chairman Risch. That's a very specific recommendation that 
we're going to take to heart. Both you and others have 
underscored that.
    Senator Sullivan.
    Senator Sullivan. I had one other question. I wanted to 
make sure my colleagues here get to the questioning as well. 
Carrie, I thought your testimony was really powerful and your 
ideas on the financing side, I thought, were also very 
powerful.
    Can you talk a little bit more about that? Then, I think 
you stated that you've benefited or have views on the Small 
Mentor-Protege Program, and I think of course the government 
can't do everything, but having a mentor and proteges in all 
different aspects of life is really helpful and powerful. In 
small business, it's particularly powerful.
    Are there things that the SBA can do more in the financing 
and mentorship and protege side that you've touched on that can 
help?
    Ms. Jokiel. Thank you for the questions. It's an 
interesting point. With the mobilization loan, which I'm 
talking about, we were in our first sole-source award with 
ChemTrack Alaska, the environmental company I have. The project 
was down on the Chain, and I needed to figure out how I was 
going to finance the beginning part of this project, which was 
the trains, planes, and automobiles to get down there.
    I was sitting actually at an 8(a) conference here in town, 
and there was a lending institution that came in and started 
talking about a mobilization loan. I started sneaking pictures 
to my controller saying: This is what we need. We need to be 
working with this mobilization loan. What they did was they 
took the government contract as an asset and allowed us to use 
that to be able to get kind of a gap financing tool to start 
the beginning of our project.
    That was extremely useful. Before that moment, I was 
talking with my bank and my line of credit had been reduced. We 
had a tough year before that had happened in the world of 
business, and so my line of credit had been reduced down to 
where I wasn't going to be able to access it as much to have 
this first part of my project covered. So my point is, I 
wouldn't have learned about that as a women-owned small 
business unless I had been at the 8(a) conference. So I'd like 
to see more effort, maybe business opportunity specialists or 
more conversations for the women-owned small business program, 
because it was fortunate that I have an individual 8(a) that I 
was able to be in an arena to learn about this institution.
    So that's the first part of the question. I think that's a 
very useful tool, to look at mobilization loans and have 
government contracts actually be the asset versus my house, my 
business, my equipment, my first child.
    On the second part of the question with the Mentor-Protege, 
I appreciate what you said about having them in life as well. 
My mentor owns a large construction company here. We have been 
friends a long time. Through the SBA a lot of great 
conversation was around: Make sure you trust your mentor, 
because I never want to be viewed as a pass-through. I'm a very 
strong, independent woman. I want my company to make it on its 
own. So I want to make sure when I'm working with a large, that 
I'm not being used, as Rollie said, to have your designation 
box checked. I want to learn and I want to grow.
    So we went to Hawaii to look at work there, and he got very 
tired of me saying: Well, you may be my mentor on paper, but in 
life I'm really our mentor and you know it. So I think that was 
an important way for the SBA to make sure to help protect the 
small, small. Then when you are looking for a mentor, maybe 
some matchmaking and some more conversations around that. I 
didn't know quite how to find my mentor. So I ended up working 
with a friend of mine and that's worked out for me here 
locally. I hope that answers part of your question.
    Chairman Risch. Yes, great. Thank you.
    Senator Murkowski.
    Senator Murkowski. Mr. Chairman, I'm going to be very brief 
and hopefully ask a more general question here. It follows on 
Senator Sullivan's initial question about some of the 
misconceptions that are out there. As you know, your delegation 
deals with some colleagues that believe they know and 
understand more than any of you the operations of an ANC and 
what that means within the 8(a) program. We fight back against 
those myths and misconceptions. You do as well.
    Hearings like this are a great opportunity to put things on 
the record. It's important to bring the Administrator to have 
him understand firsthand hearing from you. What more do we need 
to do to tell the story, to correct the record, to ensure that 
the myths do not continue? Because it makes for an ongoing 
legislative struggle, and it impacts your ability to have 
certainty moving forward.
    Do you have any suggestions for us? We have to do things on 
our end. You have to do things on yours; but is there more that 
we collectively can do?
    Chairman Risch. Carrie, I think we'll start with you, 
please.
    Ms. Jokiel. Sure. I would say it's bringing people here to 
see. I see people's eyes open up constantly when they get out 
into the remote villages of Alaska and the remote areas. Seeing 
what we're talking about. I don't know if there's a fly-in trip 
that can happen, but I think that's been eye-opening for 
everybody when they come and actually see what we're talking 
about. Of course it's easy to make armchair decisions when--
unfortunately you can do that as a CEO or president of your 
company. There's always that conversation between the field 
crew and the people in the office and who's actually doing what 
and what their roles are. But when you fly out and see--I fly 
out to my project in King Salmon or I fly out to my projects 
wherever they are. I can see what's going on. Now I understand 
why I'm unable to move the dirt as quickly as possible or 
whatever I need to figure out. And I can go back with that 
understanding.
    I think we can take that model all the way to the top and 
bring people in to actually see our area, see what we're 
discussing.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you. Mr. Peterson.
    Mr. Peterson. Well, Carrie said the same thing I was going 
to. I agree, I think bringing people out here. This is the 
cynic in me, I guess, Again, I hear about these mansions on the 
Potomac. I'd like to--for your colleagues, they shouldn't be 
able to brandish those kind of statements without producing 
some evidence because, again, I don't know of any mansions on 
the Potomac.
    Senator Sullivan. Mansions on the Potomac in a State that 
has over 30 communities where people have no clean water and 
flush toilets. I mean, it's ridiculous. That's some of the 
cluelessness we deal with in the Senate.
    Mr. Peterson. Right. You hear about issues in Western 
Alaska still with honey buckets and things like that. I'm from 
a small village in Southeast Alaska right outside of Ketchikan. 
There's many people in my community who still don't have 
running water. You know, that's a statewide issue. We're 
dealing with the opioid crisis and those kinds of things. I 
would love to see some of the other colleagues that are saying 
these things come out to our village and see for themselves 
what it is and to see the work that we do.
    I think in any business or in any area there's always going 
to be abuse somewhere, but for them to brandish these 
misconceptions or whatever you want to call them as the truth 
is really detrimental to us. If it's one on a million that it 
happens, it shouldn't be the one that's used as the example 
over and over and over. Maybe someone does have a really nice 
house on the Potomac that I don't know about, but I don't 
believe that to be true at all.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you. Mr. Marrs.
    Mr. Marrs. Well, it's totally a misconception, that whole 
idea that we're getting something for nothing and it's a 
handout by the government. I think my testimony says we work 
hard and work hard for the government. The problems that you 
deal with is because it's government, you've got all these 
rules, at least loads of bureaucracy, that we have to work with 
yet we're a for-profit corporation. We try to streamline 
everything we can within those corporations, but because of all 
these rules, you're sort of hamstrung.
    If you think about a--you know, the government can always 
negotiate a good contract with an 8(a). If they don't like what 
the 8(a) is doing in the contract, they can walk away from it. 
There is no requirement for a sole-source. I would like to see 
some requirements for sole-source, but there is no requirement 
for a sole-source contract by the government.
    So, you know, there are a lot of misconceptions out there 
about how this program works. People are jealous because they 
think we have some advantage over other contractors. I don't 
see that because those guys negotiate sole-source contracts for 
billions of dollars. Why is it that we're still limited and 
restricted as to what we can do because we can to the jobs 
good. We have good people. We have good managers. Yes, I think 
I agree with Richard, there are times that somebody will go 
awry and try to pull a fast one, but the bathwater shouldn't be 
thrown out with the baby and then, hey, most of us do and try 
hard and we really care.
    We do it for our shareholders. That's what it's all about. 
If I have $100 million in contracts, I'd put maybe $5 million 
on the bottom line; that equates to a very small amount of 
money for every shareholder. And you have profit in order to 
keep your business going and reinvest. It's much less than 
that. Yes, there are issues. Like I told the committee, I've 
submitted 16 pages of them in writing so you'll have those.
    Chairman Risch. We appreciate that.
    Mr. Kompkoff, did you have any comments?
    Mr. Kompkoff. Yes, I do. Thank you for the question, 
Senator Murkowski. A couple quick things. One, Mr. Wong 
mentioned a BOS training event, first that they've ever put 
together. We'd like to volunteer to help educate the BOS group 
on the program and how they can communicate to their customers. 
I think we'd encourage the SBA to think about using those that 
are in the program as a resource to help educate the broader 
contracting community on how this program works. So that's one 
specific example of something more that we can do.
    The other thing to think about is there are customers that 
can--you don't have to talk to us. I mean, we're biased. We're 
in the program. We're benefiting from the program. We're going 
through our own struggles, but there are the customers are the 
ones who can sing the songs of our praises. I would encourage 
and be glad to help set up tours of our customers' sites and 
conversations with our customers about the type of work that we 
do to kind of dispel the myth that we're just getting handouts 
and we're not performing great quality work for our customers.
    Senator Murkowski. That point I will share with my 
colleagues. I had an opportunity some months ago to be 
traveling over in the Pacific Islands. We stopped in Wake 
Island, the first stop on the other side of the dateline there. 
That entire island, that facility is managed by Chugach. So you 
get off the airplane and you see the logo on the cap and hat. I 
looked at it and I thought: That's so familiar. Here I am in 
the South Pacific on this tiny little island. The opportunity 
to speak to those who had worked there for as many years as 
they have and the value that they create, but also the 
extraordinary satisfaction that they have with the work that 
has been done by Chugach out there in the middle of an 
extraordinary ocean, as an Alaskan, it made me very, very proud 
of the work that is done.
    I thought: I should have captured that by video, because I 
think it's stories like that that really can tell the true 
value of what is being done. So I share that with you as one of 
those really good news story, because sometimes the advertising 
does itself, but you've got to go a long way to find it.
    Chairman Risch. Rollie, did you have anything?
    Mr. Miranda. Yes. I think your committee being here is a 
start to getting the word out, and letting us all testify so 
everybody can hear and be on record so everyone knows.
    Chairman Risch. Thank you very much.
    Without further ado, we're going to keep the record open 
for two weeks, until 5 o'clock on Friday, July 13th. So if 
anyone wants to submit anything further for the record, you may 
certainly do so. Senator Sullivan, you mentioned a couple of 
items earlier on. Those will be included in the record. I'm 
given an email here: [email protected].
    With that, I want to recognize a couple people. I didn't, 
but I wanted to wait until the end to make sure this went well. 
Those are the two who organized this. Skiffington Holderness is 
the Staff Director for the Small Business Committee.
    Meredith, who actually did all the work which Skiffington 
could get credit for. So, Meredith, thank you.
    It's always dangerous to do that because I know there were 
lots and lots of other people that had input into this, so we 
want to thank you. We have been just very well received here in 
Alaska, as I knew we would be. Thank you to both my colleagues 
for inviting us here. I think that this has been a very 
substantive and productive hearing.
    So, with that, without further ado, we will call the 
meeting adjourned.
    [The Hearing of the U.S. Senate Committee on Small Business 
and Entrepreneurship adjourned at 4:30 p.m.]

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