[Senate Hearing 115-120]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 115-120
HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE TO BE MEMBER OF
THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY AND ANDREW WHEELER TO BE DEPUTY
ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
----------
NOVEMBER 8, 2017
----------
Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE TO BE MEMBER OF
THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY AND ANDREW WHEELER TO BE DEPUTY
ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
S. Hrg. 115-120
HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE TO BE MEMBER OF
THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY AND ANDREW WHEELER TO BE DEPUTY
ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
NOVEMBER 8, 2017
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
_________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
27-600 PDF WASHINGTON : 2017
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COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming, Chairman
JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland
JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
ROGER WICKER, Mississippi SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
DEB FISCHER, Nebraska JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon
JERRY MORAN, Kansas KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, New York
MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
JONI ERNST, Iowa EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
RICHARD SHELBY, Alabama KAMALA HARRIS, California
Richard M. Russell, Majority Staff Director
Gabrielle Batkin, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
NOVEMBER 8, 2017
OPENING STATEMENTS
Barrasso, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Wyoming...... 1
Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware.. 3
Cornyn, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Texas, prepared
statement...................................................... 6
WITNESSES
Stivers, Hon. Steve, U.S. Representative from the State of Ohio.. 8
White, Kathleen Hartnett, Director, Texas Public Policy
Foundation..................................................... 9
Prepared statement........................................... 12
Responses to additional questions from Senator Carper........ 17
Response to an additional question from Senator Booker....... 35
Responses to additional questions from Senator Gillibrand.... 35
Response to an additional question from Senator Inhofe....... 36
Responses to additional questions from:
Senator Merkley.......................................... 37
Senator Sanders.......................................... 41
Senator Whitehouse....................................... 57
Wheeler, Andrew, Principal, Faegre Baker Daniels Consulting...... 62
Prepared statement........................................... 64
Responses to additional questions from Senator Carper........ 67
Response to an additional question from:
Senator Gillibrand....................................... 82
Senator Inhofe........................................... 82
Responses to additional questions from:
Senator Merkley.......................................... 82
Senator Sanders.......................................... 84
Senator Sullivan......................................... 93
Senator Whitehouse....................................... 94
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL
Kathleen Hartnett White, Distinguished Senior Fellow-in-Residence
& Director, Armstrong Center for Energy & the Environment,
www.texaspolicy.com, sourced November 7, 2017.................. 600
Board of Directors, www.texaspolicy.com, sourced November 7, 2017 602
Information on the Texas Public Policy Foundation from
www.sourcewatch.org, sourced November 7, 2017.................. 605
Green Energy Policies May Haunt Democrats This Fall, The Patriot
Post, July 2, 2016............................................. 626
Trump pick for top environmental post once wrote Texas would be
`better off' as an independent republic, www.cnn.com, October
26, 2017....................................................... 628
Clean Air Act.................................................... 632
HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE TO BE MEMBER OF
THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY AND ANDREW WHEELER TO BE DEPUTY
ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
----------
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 2017
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Environment and Public Works,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m. in
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John Barrasso
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Barrasso, Carper, Inhofe, Capito,
Boozman, Wicker, Fischer, Rounds, Ernst, Sullivan, Cardin,
Whitehouse, Merkley, Gillibrand, Booker, Markey, Duckworth, and
Harris.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING
Senator Barrasso. Good morning. I call this hearing to
order.
Today we will consider the nominations of Kathleen Hartnett
White to be a member of the Council of Environmental Quality--
the CEQ, and Andrew Wheeler to be Deputy Administrator of the
Environmental Protection Agency.
Before I speak about the nominees, I want to reiterate
remarks that I made last week on the Senate floor that are
applicable to today's hearing. All year long, Democrats have
been putting up roadblocks to President Trump's nominations.
Democrats have been forcing 30 hours of debate on even some of
the most bipartisan of President Trump's nominees. But then
those Democrats have not been showing up to use the time for
the debate, the 30 hours.
In the past, both sides would agree to waive the time
requirements and to move on to other Senate business. But today
many Democrats insist on cloture votes and then insist that we
waste hour after hour on the Senate floor, even when there is
no one on the floor to debate the nominees that are in front of
us.
It is time to end this pointless spectacle. We have nearly
100 nominees for important jobs in the Administration on the
Executive Calendar waiting a vote on the Senate floor. The
Environment and Public Works Committee has reported 11 nominees
to the full Senate for approval, only two of whom have received
votes on the Senate floor so far.
I am pleased that we will be able to vote on another this
week, but unfortunately, it required cloture and another 30
hours of debate time.
As of last Friday, there have been 51 cloture votes on
President Trump's nominees. In comparison, the previous four
Administrations had only a total of seven cloture votes on
their nominees at this point in their administrations. That
would be Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and both Presidents Bush.
Democrats are not using the Senate rules for debate or
deliberation, only for delay. It is therefore time to change
the rules and go back to the process that Senator Schumer
supported in 2013 and 2014. Today, the schedule allows us to do
only one or two nominations in a typical week. If we go back to
the 2014 Schumer standard, we could clear multiple nominations
in a day.
Now I would like to turn to today's nominees.
President Trump has nominated Kathleen Hartnett White to be
a member of the CEQ. The President intends to designate her as
the Chair of the CEQ upon her confirmation by the Senate. CEQ
was established pursuant to the National Environmental Policy
Act, the implementation of which the CEQ oversees. CEQ is
responsible for coordinating Federal environmental efforts. It
develops and recommends national policies to the President that
promote the improvement of environmental quality.
James Connaughton, who is the former Chair of the CEQ under
President George W. Bush, said this of Ms. Hartnett White. He
said, ``She is clearly highly qualified, adept, and has a
breadth of experience.''
Ms. White currently serves as a distinguished senior fellow
in residence and director of the Armstrong Center for Energy
and Environment at the Texas Public Policy Foundation, which
she joined in 2008. From 2001 to 2007 she served as Chairman
and Commissioner of the Texas Commission on Environmental
Quality.
Ms. White has also served as a leader of the Lower Colorado
River Authority, the Texas Water Development Board, the Texas
Economic Development Commission, the Environmental Flow Study
Commission, the Texas Emissions Reduction Advisory Board, the
Texas Water Foundation, the National Cattlemen's Association,
and the Texas Wildlife Association.
I look forward to hearing from Ms. White how she will bring
her breadth of experience to bear on CEQ.
President Trump also nominated Andrew Wheeler to be Deputy
Administrator of the EPA. The Deputy Administrator plays a
central role in developing and implementing programs and
activities focused on fulfilling the EPA's mission of
protecting human health and the environment. The Deputy
Administrator oversees Agency-wide initiatives and coordinates
important issues with EPA's regional and program offices.
I was heartened by the Ranking Member's positive comments
about Mr. Wheeler and his dedication to the EPA's mission. Our
Ranking Member has previously stated, ``The fact that we have
worked with him, we know him, he used to work with George
Voinovich, who is one of my closest friends and allies on the
environment, is certainly helpful.'' He went on to say, ``And I
think, having worked in the Agency, he actually cares about the
environment, the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the
planet on which we live.''
Mr. Wheeler has spent over 25 years working in the
environmental field, first as a career employee with the title
of Environmental Protection Specialist at EPA for 4 years, then
as the EPW's Clean Air Subcommittee Staff Director for 6 years;
next as the EPW's Republican Staff Director and Chief Counsel
for 6 years; and finally, as a consultant and lobbyist for a
large variety of energy and environmental clients for the last
8 years.
We know how well qualified Mr. Wheeler is, and if
confirmed, what a wealth of experience and expertise he will
bring to a critically important role in protecting America's
public health and safety.
As I turn to Senator Carper, I would also add, like your
two sons, Andrew is also an Eagle Scout.
I would like to also now turn to the Ranking Member for his
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE
Senator Carper. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are
grateful for this hearing and for our nominees that will be
appearing before us today.
John Barrasso and I are friends. I consider everybody on
this Committee a friend. And I wasn't going to mention this,
but I have to say this. We have an Administration, Mr.
Chairman, that has basically said to heads of various agencies
they don't have to respond to oversight inquiries from anybody
except the Chairman of a committee. And you know and I know
that usually the party that is not in the White House tends to
be more rigorous in exercising oversight over the
Administration. That is the way it has always worked, whether
you have a Democrat or Republican President.
We have asked, on our side of the aisle, some 30 letters to
EPA asking for response. We think we are exercising our
oversight responsibilities. We have heard now on about 10 of
them. And if you are playing baseball, you are batting .333. In
baseball, that is pretty good, but it is not pretty good here
in the U.S. Senate.
We can do better here. And as my colleagues know, when we
had a Democratic administration, and my colleagues said they
weren't getting the responses they needed, I would literally
call the heads of the agencies and say, for God's sake, respond
to Senator whoever it is. For God's sake, respond. And that is
kind of like regular order, and we need to get back to that. We
get good responses on our letters, and we can move people. We
move people a lot faster, and I want to. I want to do that.
I come from a background that, as Governor, folks I
nominate, I expect them to be confirmed. Get a hearing; be
confirmed. Eight years as Governor of Delaware, and we had a
Republican House, Democratic Senate, not one was ever turned
down to lead an administration, to lead a department, to lead
an agency, to serve as a judge. Not one was turned down. And I
think part of it was the way we treated and responded to
legislators for their lawful responsibilities, obligation to do
oversight. And we are not getting that right now.
I had not planned to say that, but I felt compelled to do
that, especially the part that I regard you as my friend.
Before I turn to the nominations, I want to say I look
forward to the day when Scott Pruitt, the head of the EPA,
comes and testifies before us again. And my hope is that that
day will come soon.
Turning to today's hearing, we have two nominees before us
who have been nominated to serve in very important capacities,
very important capacities. The Council on Environmental Quality
is led by the White House's top environmental official. CEQ has
historically played a vital role in coordinating the efforts of
all Federal agencies on cost cutting and important
environmental issues. For example, CEQ co-chaired President
Obama's Climate Adaptation Task Force to help communities
strengthen their resilience to extreme weather and prepare for
other impacts of climate change.
CEQ leads the Office of Federal Sustainability, which
develops policies to modernize Federal property and save money
through increased energy efficiency and other purchasing
requirements. CEQ also plays a key role in identifying ways to
make sure Federal agencies work together well and in a
coordinated fashion. And CEQ helped to get the almost
unanimously enacted Toxic Substance Control Act, which a bunch
of us worked on, over the finish line by coordinating with a
wide range of stakeholders during negotiations between the
House and the Senate and those stakeholders and the
Administration.
The nominee to carry on this important work must be someone
who can build alliances, someone who can work with Congress and
be a credible leader. Unfortunately, in my view, the nominee
before us today, Kathleen Hartnett White, does not, in my
opinion, meet this standard.
In her years serving the Texas Commission on Environmental
Quality and thereafter, Ms. White has shown a disdain for
science, a disregard for laws and regulations already on the
books, and a staggering disrespect for people who have views
with which she disagrees.
Ms. White, who has been asked to hold the top environmental
position in the White House, has shown that she is not only a
science denier, but actively promotes misinformation on
climate, on ozone, on mercury, particulate matter, and other
known health hazards that impact our air and our waterways.
From describing the Renewable Fuel Standard as unethical, to
comparing people who believe in climate programs to pagans, to
saying that environmentalism will lead to mass starvation or
other large scale calamities, her tone, her words, and her
actions are simply unacceptable.
Our second nominee, Andrew Wheeler, once occupied a seat on
this side of the dais, as the Chairman has said. He is no
stranger to the Environmental and Public Works Committee. As a
long time staff member for the senior Senator from Oklahoma,
Mr. Wheeler was someone with whom we didn't always agree on
each and every policy, but he did prove to be one with whom we
were always able to work together on policies that we did agree
on.
Given the polarizing nature of Scott Pruitt's EPA, as well
as the polarizing nature of one of Mr. Wheeler's long-time
clients, Bob Murray, of Murray Energy, I am anxious to hear
from Mr. Wheeler about whether he can assure members of this
Committee that his confirmation to be Deputy Administrator of
the EPA would not be more of the same approach at the Agency.
I would like to know if Mr. Wheeler can leave his clients
and his conflicts of interest behind him and start over with
the interests of the country as his No. 1 priority. I also want
to understand whether, unlike Ms. White, Andy Wheeler can
embrace and acknowledge accepted environmental and public
health science.
So thanks, Mr. Chairman. We look forward to hearing from
all of our witnesses, and especially welcome as a Buckeye our
lead off witness. Thank you for joining us today.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Senator
Carper.
I would point out that, according to the EPA, to date, the
Agency has delivered over 4,300 pages of documents to the
minority, including civil and criminal enforcement summaries,
travel records, communications relating to the Clean Power Plan
Executive Order, communications relating to the oil and gas
industry, information collection requests, and then ethics
documents as well, including recusal forms, training records,
and ethics pledges.
I do agree that the Administration needs to be responsive
to members from both sides of the aisle. I would point out that
as an early member of this Committee a number of years ago,
under Chairman Boxer, I was the Ranking Member of something
called the Oversight Committee, and I had a number of things
that I wanted to look into in terms of oversight, and the
Chairman at that time told me the only oversight that was going
to be done under her Committee at that time was over what she
described as abuses of the Bush administration; nothing of that
was happening during that current Obama administration.
Senator Carper. Well, for good or for bad, I am not Barbara
Boxer.
[Laughter.]
Senator Carper. I am Tom Carper, and I want to work
together, and I want to get things done, and I want to get
reasonable responses to the two-thirds of requests we have
made. I just want reasonable responses, and I don't think that
is too much to ask for. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Carper.
Senator Cornyn of Texas was scheduled to be here to
introduce Ms. Hartnett White. He had a conflict that he just
could not avoid, so I am going to submit his statement to the
record of support for Kathleen Hartnett White into the record
without objection.
Hearing none, it is submitted.
Senator Carper. I object.
Senator Barrasso. Too late.
[Laughter.]
[The prepared statement of Senator Cornyn follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Now, I would like to welcome to the
Committee Congressman Steve Stivers from the Ohio 15th
District. And he would be doing us the privilege of introducing
Mr. Wheeler.
Congressman Stivers, please proceed.
STATEMENT OF HON. STEVE STIVERS,
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE STATE OF OHIO
Mr. Stivers. Thank you, Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member
Carper, and Senators for the honor to be with you today. It is
certainly my honor to introduce my good friend, Andrew Wheeler,
who is nominated to be Deputy Administrator of the
Environmental Protection Agency.
Andrew comes with an unmatched amount of experience in
energy and environment policy both in government and in the
private sector, which will make him an excellent candidate for
this role. Andrew and I met back in 1983 at Woodland Trails Boy
Scout Camp, where I was Commissioner and he was the Director of
Nature Conservation. He and I both went on to become Eagle
Scouts, so I have great information, as you go through your due
diligence for your confirmation process. He is indeed a Boy
Scout.
Even back then Andrew had clear passion for the environment
and understood the importance of stewardship. Andrew began his
career with the EPA, serving in the Office of Pollution
Prevention. He then went on to the U.S. Senate, starting with
Senator James Inhofe, then moving to the Subcommittee for Clean
Air, Wetlands, and Nuclear Safety, and later the Committee on
Environment and Public Works.
In more than 10 years with these committees, he worked on
nearly every piece of major energy and environmental related
legislation that came through Congress. For example, in his
time as Staff Director on this Committee, Andrew was
responsible for managing Senate floor debate and strategy for
legislation on topics including regulations, offshore oil
reserves, alternative fuel vehicles, biofuels, and tar sands.
In his role, he also gained experience developing long term
goals and strategies, and managing a staff and budget.
Currently, Andrew is a principal at Faegre Baker Daniels
Consulting and co-lead of Faegre Baker Daniels' energy and
natural resources practice. In that role, he advises clients on
a variety of complicated legislative, regulatory, and
operational issues.
With his years of experience in the Senate and working with
multiple Federal agencies, it is clear that Andrew is more than
qualified for this position. Moreover, Andrew had a top tier
education, earning a B.A. in English and Biology from Case
Western Reserve University and a Juris Doctorate from
Washington University School of Law, and an MBA from George
Mason University School of Business.
Andrew understands the balance we need to have between
environmental stewardship and responsible use of our natural
resources. I have the utmost confidence in Andrew, and I hope
you will move forward with his confirmation as Deputy
Administrator of the United States Environmental Protection
Agency.
I want to thank you for your consideration, and it is
certainly my honor to introduce my friend, Andrew Wheeler.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Representative
Stivers. I appreciate your being here. You are welcome to stay
or leave, whichever works best for your schedule, but you can't
continue to sit there.
Mr. Stivers. Thank you. I will move away.
[Laughter.]
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Senator Inhofe, I heard your name raised in that glowing
recommendation.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. You can
hear from the non-Eagle Scout group now.
I have to say there is no one in this room right now, or no
one at this table, who knows Andrew Wheeler better and loves
him more than I do, and I would just say that all the things
that we did together, I think the Chairman did a good job
talking about his background. When you stop and think about all
the highway bills, all these bills, we did these together. We
accomplished a lot, and a lot of that was due to Andrew
Wheeler. They desperately need him over there. They are
understaffed. And I just want those in this room to know that
if you knew him as well as I would, we would have this over
with already. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Inhofe.
Now I would like to welcome our nominees to the Committee
and ask that they please come forward.
Kathleen Hartnett White, who is the nominee to be a member
of the Council on Environmental Quality, and Andrew Wheeler,
who is the nominee to be the Deputy Administrator of the
Environmental Protection Agency.
I want to remind each of you that your full written
testimony will be made a part of the record. I look forward to
hearing the testimony from both of you.
We will hear first from Ms. Hartnett White.
Would you like to introduce any members of the family,
folks who may be with you today? And after you do, we would ask
that you please proceed with your testimony at your
convenience.
STATEMENT OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE,
DIRECTOR, TEXAS PUBLIC POLICY FOUNDATION
Ms. White. Thank you very much, Chairman Barrasso. I would
like to welcome and introduce some family members here who are
with me.
Senator Barrasso. Please.
Ms. White. My niece, Melanie. I can't find you. My niece,
Melanie, and her son, Mason O'Brien. His father, Jim O'Brien,
is my closest relative who could not attend today, but I would
like to list them. I am proud to say his wife, Melanie, just
retired from the U.S. Navy. I am very, very proud of her.
My husband, also, got incredibly sick from some mean, mean
flu, so I am a little sparse on family. But I would like to
raise him up. My husband is a fifth generation cattle rancher
in Presidio County in Texas, extremely remote, and he also
managed to be chairman of the El Paso branch of the Dallas
Federal Reserve and President of the American Hereford
Association. I am very proud of him. I am very thankful for him
and his patience.
Senator Barrasso. Please proceed. Welcome.
Ms. White. I will now proceed with my personal statement.
Senator Barrasso. Please do. Welcome to the Committee, and
please proceed.
Ms. White. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member Carper, all
the members of the Committee, I am honored to appear before you
today as President Trump's nominee for member, and if
confirmed, Chairman of the White House Council on Environmental
Quality. And I am most grateful to the President for the
confidence he has placed in me.
As I just mentioned, my husband, Beau, is a fifth
generation cattle rancher. His family ranch in Presidio County
is really a living example of the mission of the NEPA, of the
National Environmental Policy Act, that promotes an enduring
and productive harmony between humans and the natural world.
I grew up in rural Kansas, and there my late parents
instilled in me a lifelong curiosity and reverence for the
natural world. They also told me to wisely use the natural
resources with which our country is so blessed.
A strong economy, I believe, is what makes environmental
gains possible. As Chairman of the TCEQ, my record of achieving
major improvements in air quality and water quality
demonstrates that economic growth can go hand in hand with
remarkable environmental enhancement. And I am proud to say
Texas has been a leader in that. The Texas environment is
dramatically cleaner now than it was 30 or 40 years ago, while
the State's economy has continued to grow.
While I was Chairman at TCEQ, Texas experienced nation
leading growth in population, in gross State product, and in
jobs, while dramatically reducing point source emissions, and
my written testimony gives the percentages on all of those.
It was a big job to chair TCEQ in a big State. In
particular, I had regulatory oversight over more than 350,000
public and private entities, implementing and enforcing binding
regulations on air quality, water quality, water supply, and
waste disposal. And I might add, I have to submit for the
record--or in whatever format you need--documents for all the
enforcement actions I took while I was at TCEQ.
Senator Barrasso. They will be included. Thank you.
Ms. White. Thank you.
Execution of environmental laws is essential, and we took a
very strong perspective on that.
With the help of a dedicated staff of over 3,000, and
working with officials across the State and Federal agencies,
TCEQ had many successes. As an example, for years Houston has
vied with Los Angeles as the worst ozone polluter in the
country. But under the implementation plan I developed while I
was Chair, Houston actually attained the then ozone standard in
2010 and 2011, far earlier than many thought possible.
The achievements in Texas in recent years I think were
possible because we insisted upon robust science, coordination
across the agencies, efficient permitting, and timely,
predictable outcomes. These principles are also now the keys to
the President's agenda for regulatory reform and urgently
needed new infrastructure.
I strongly believe that the Federal Government can and
should provide a predictable, transparent, and timely process
for making decisions, including for major infrastructure
projects. We owe this to the American people. And I commend
this Committee for recognizing these issues in two, now, law. I
believe one is called the FAST Act and MAP-21, and I think that
is wonderful.
This Committee has a proud history of working together to
solve complex national problems with practical solutions that
benefit all Americans. If confirmed, I pledge to work with this
Committee and the President to continue that tradition and
achieve a balanced and effective national approach to our
environmental challenges.
Thank you very much, and I look forward to answering your
questions today.
[The prepared statement of Ms. White follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Ms. Hartnett
White. We appreciate your testimony and your presence here
today.
Mr. Wheeler, it is now your turn. If you would like to
introduce anyone and then proceed with your testimony.
STATEMENT OF ANDREW WHEELER,
PRINCIPAL, FAEGRE BAKER DANIELS CONSULTING
Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Senator. I would like to introduce
my sister, Liesel, right behind me; her husband, Tim Cooper;
and my nephew and godson, Luke Cooper. And I really appreciate
Luke being here today because, being here, he has broken his
perfect attendance record at school.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Wheeler. So I am very happy and proud.
Senator Barrasso. Does he need a note from a doctor? We can
help him.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Wheeler. Thank you.
And I do have three friends: my friend Don, whom I met my
first day of law school in 1987, flew here from Seattle to be
here just for this hearing; and my friends John and Michael,
who climbed Kilimanjaro with me 2 years ago. And I figured if
they could get me to the top of the mountain, they could get me
through today.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Wheeler. Good morning, Chairman Barrasso, Ranking
Member Carper, and Chairman Emeritus Inhofe, and members of the
Committee. I am truly honored and humbled by this opportunity
to appear today as the nominee for the position of Deputy
Administrator at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. I
want to thank President Trump for this distinguished
opportunity, and I want to thank Administrator Pruitt for the
trust he has shown in me in supporting my nomination.
As many of you know, I spent 14 wonderful years working on
this Committee for Chairman Inhofe and Senator Voinovich in a
number of different roles, including the Majority and Minority
Staff Director and Chief Counsel. I must say the view from this
table is far different from the view from the staff bench
behind the dais.
As a side note, I have never sat here before. I think this
table is really kind of high. If I had sat here when I was
staff director, we would have lowered it.
Starting with the Safe Drinking Water Act amendments in
1996 through three highway bills, several WRDA bills,
brownfields, diesel reduction legislation, and numerous other
bills that I had the privilege to work on, I always tried to
find common ground and work across the aisle.
I would like to take a moment and speak directly to the
career employees of the EPA who may be watching this hearing. I
started my career at EPA in the Toxics Office in 1991 as a
career employee. I have always believed that the career
employees at the EPA are some of the most dedicated and hard
working employees in the Federal Government, and if confirmed,
I would be honored to join you again. The mission of the EPA,
to protect human health and the environment, is critical to our
country and its citizens, and something that I take very
seriously, and I know that you do, too.
President Trump and Administrator Pruitt have set an
ambitious agenda that I intend to help implement, if confirmed
to this position. Administrator Pruitt has talked about
returning EPA to its core mission and purpose, a goal that I
wholeheartedly support.
During his confirmation hearing, Administrator Pruitt
emphasized three key objectives: first, we are a nation of
laws, and it is EPA's role to administer those laws faithfully.
I understand the separation of powers through my time spent
working here in the Senate, I know where the laws are drafted,
many of them here in this very room, and I will work with the
Administrator to ensure that the Agency is following the laws.
Second, Administrator Pruitt committed that the Agency
would acknowledge, respect, and promote the critical role of
the States in implementing the Federal environmental laws.
Cooperative federalism is a cornerstone of the Administrator's
approach. We must work cooperatively with the States to ensure
that the environment and public health are both protected.
Third, Administrator Pruitt emphasized the important role
that the public plays in the regulatory process. He said it is
critical that the EPA truly listen to the diverse views of the
American people, and that includes all of the people. It is
vitally important that the American public understands the
mutual goals of environmental protection and economic growth.
The environment today is cleaner than it has ever been in
modern times. As a nation, we have made tremendous progress
since the 1970s, and we have to build upon that progress going
forward.
I would like to go off script for just a minute and
recognize my mother, who was too ill to travel here today. When
I was 21 months old, my sisters were 8 years and 8 months old,
our father passed away. Our mother went back to school to
finish her teaching degree, taught elementary school for almost
30 years, and raised us on her own. She put all three of us
through college and helped us with various graduate schools.
She has been my No. 1 mentor, next to Senator Inhofe, and
confidante, and I know I would not be here today if it wasn't
for her constant love and support.
Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, thank you again
for the opportunity to appear before you today, and I want to
thank your staff for their service. I look forward to starting
our dialogue now by answering any questions you may have.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Wheeler follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. Well, I want to thank both of you very
much for your testimony. Throughout the hearing and with
questions for the record, Committee members will have an
opportunity to learn more about your commitment to public
service and your commitment to service to our nation. I would
ask that throughout the hearing you please respond to the
questions today during the hearing, as well as written ones for
the record.
I have to ask the following questions that we ask of all
nominees on behalf of the Committee.
Do you agree, if confirmed, to appear before this Committee
or designated members of this Committee and other appropriate
committees of the Congress, and provide information subject to
appropriate and necessary security protections with respect to
your responsibilities?
Ms. White. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
Senator Barrasso. And do you agree to ensure that
testimony, briefings, documents, and electronic and other forms
of information are provided to this Committee and its staff,
and other appropriate committees, in a timely manner?
Ms. White. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, I will.
Senator Barrasso. And do you know of any matters which you
may or may not have disclosed that might place you in a
conflict of interest if you are confirmed?
Ms. White. No.
Mr. Wheeler. No, I do not.
Senator Barrasso. Well, with that, Mr. Wheeler and Ms.
White--let me start with Mr. Wheeler, but it is the same
question then to Ms. Hartnett White. Could you talk about what
accomplishments in your career you are most proud of?
Mr. Wheeler. Wow. I would say I have had a lot of major
accomplishments in my career, and I can point to some large
bills here in the Committee; the highway bills that I worked
on, the WRDA bill, my time at EPA. But I would have to say I
have been in this town almost 30 years, and I would like to
think that I have kept my personal integrity the entire time,
and it is working also with the people that I have worked with
on a day to day basis.
I know--when I walked up here from the back of the room--I
see several former staff people that have worked with me over
the years, and it is those friendships that I have developed
and the day to day work that I have done, and I have kept my
integrity, and I have kept my principles intact the entire
time.
Senator Barrasso. Ms. White.
Ms. White. I think the professional experience that I would
be most proud of was the magnitude of reduction of ozone
producing emissions in the Houston-Galveston area. Remember,
that is the seat of the largest petrochemical complex in the
world, with a climate highly inductive to ozone formation. And
we did all kinds of innovative things. Talk about a process
that involved coordination of multiple agencies at the Federal
and State and local level.
In fact, I said if we are right in all these measures that
have been the source of the ozone plan, we will attain. Most
people wouldn't have thought of it. We attained 2010, 2011. Of
course, EPA has since strengthened the standard. We are close
to, not quite there, but even more reductions have been made.
If that can be done in Texas, that can be replicated in the
world.
And I think one of the key things was the most robust
science, science particular to the ozone chemistry in the
Houston-Galveston area. And I think it is exciting, were I
confirmed, to have a job where that kind of achievement can be
replicated across the country.
Senator Barrasso. Let me follow up on that with both of
you, because you have both chosen careers in environmental
policy, so I ask why do you want to serve as the Deputy
Administrator of the EPA, member and Chair of the CEQ in terms
of continuing the work that you have done?
Mr. Wheeler, if you want to start.
Mr. Wheeler. Certainly. I really look at the career that I
have had so far to date, and the timing of this position, as
everything that I have done so far has led up to this at this
point, starting as a career employee at the Agency, with my
experience here.
I really think I have some of the skills that would be
useful to Administrator Pruitt and President Trump at the EPA.
With Administrator Pruitt wanting to return to the basic
programs of the EPA, I think I can be of help to him. I think I
can be of help to President Trump, and I think I can be of help
to the employees at EPA as we move forward in this new
direction for the Agency.
Senator Barrasso. Ms. White.
Ms. White. I will try to articulate three reasons. Because
my career has been so broad, it has allowed me to gain a lot of
very useful, practical expertise with all environmental media;
not just air quality, but water, waste, nuclear waste, in fact,
as well across the many Federal environmental laws, and have
had the challenge of making a very, very large bureaucracy
function efficiently. I think to be able to apply what I have
learned would be a great honor.
The second is I am a great champion of getting rid of red
tape. That is not saying anything, but this appears to be a
time with the last two highway bills which this Committee
approved, and the President's interest and executive orders and
permit timeframe reduction and all of that, that this is a
unique opportunity to have a bipartisan, supported by the
President, major effort across the agencies to reform much of
the NEPA process.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much.
I reserve the remainder of my time.
Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
Again, welcome. A warm welcome to both of you two today.
Ms. White, I was, frankly, surprised to hear the comments
that you just shared with us with respect to ozone. In a number
of articles and interviews, you have questioned whether ozone
is even a harmful air pollutant. We heard a 2016--last year--
radio interview for a program called What's Up on the radio,
and Ms. White, apparently you said that ozone isn't harmful to
human health unless, and I quote you, ``you put your mouth over
the tailpipe of a car for 8 hours every day.''
You also called on Congress to remove EPA's funding for
implementing the ozone air quality standards--this was last
year--and said that the standard should be 85 parts per
billion. That is a good deal higher than the 75 parts per
billion standard set by President Bush in 2008, and even higher
than the 80 parts per billion standard set in 1997.
So I just thought it was interesting, the comments that you
made here today.
I would just ask of you, Mr. Wheeler, the EPA's current Web
page says, with respect to ozone, ozone in the air we breathe
can harm our health, especially on hot, sunny days when ozone
can reach unhealthy levels. Even relatively low levels of ozone
can cause health effects. And the Web page goes on to describe
the increased risk of asthma, lung infection, other
cardiopulmonary diseases that ozone exposure can cause.
In your introduction, we learned that you have a combined
biology major in college, spent a majority of your career
working on clean air issues, and I know that from personal
experience in working with you and Governor Voinovich. But what
do you think about the adverse health impacts that are
associated with the EPA? Do you agree with what is on that Web
page that I just quoted?
Mr. Wheeler. I am not familiar with the specific Web page
that you have just quoted, but from what you said, I would
agree with the health effects that you listed, yes.
Senator Carper. All right.
Ms. White, in 2015 and in 2016, in several speeches and
interviews and articles in The Federalist and in Focus Today,
you compared the views of people who believe that carbon
pollution is causing climate change to those of pagans,
ideologues, and communists. After Pope Francis published his
2015 Environmental Encyclical, you wrote two articles for The
Federalist that said that the solutions that Pope Francis was
calling for would lead to poverty, socialism, and even
concentration camps.
And I would ask Mr. Wheeler, do you concur in those views?
Mr. Wheeler. As a Presbyterian, I am not going to criticize
the Pope.
Senator Carper. That is not our style.
Mr. Wheeler. You are asking me if I agree with--I am
sorry--the views?
Senator Carper. The characterization. Again, the articles
that I quoted. Ms. White compared the views of people who
believed that carbon pollution is causing climate change to
those of pagans, ideologues, and communists, and said that the
Encyclical that Pope Francis wrote would lead to poverty,
socialism, and concentration camps.
Are those views that you also embrace?
Mr. Wheeler. I would not put it that way; no, sir.
Senator Carper. All right.
Today, this week, representatives I think from every
country in the world are gathered in Bonn, Germany, discussing
how we can address climate change together. The leaders of
every country in the world, except for the current President of
the United States, accept climate science and are committed to
do something about it.
Ms. White, do you really believe that the views of all
those countries' leaders are properly compared to those of
pagans, ideologues, and communists?
Ms. White. No, I do not, Senator, and I think some of those
words and phrases are taken out of context. I was, in that
article, also quoting either the then-current or now recently
stepped down head of the U.N. climate program, Cristina
Figueras, who made a comment that a global agreement on climate
change would provide the first example to destroy the economic
model of the industrial revolution.
Senator Carper. Well, I hold in my hand your quotes, your
comments verbatim, and I think they speak for themselves. It is
good that you are here and saying these things today. I am also
glad that we have these words that you said repeatedly in the
past.
My time has expired.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Carper.
Senator Rounds.
Senator Rounds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Let me just begin. I would like to begin with Ms. Hartnett
White.
Do you believe that the CEQ should play a role in
administering the Renewable Fuel Standard, the RFS?
Ms. White. No, I don't. I think the current arrangement
under law that it is the primary authority of EPA to administer
and implement the Renewable Fuel Standard program.
Senator Rounds. Can you share a little bit with regard to
the Renewable Fuel Standard, which, truly, in the upper
Midwest, has provided tremendous economic opportunity to
Midwestern farmers? The use of corn, we can grow corn like you
can't believe. As a matter of fact, the number of bushels per
acre has continued to increase as good science has been
utilized and as farming practices have continued to improve at
a rapid pace. The American farmer has proven time and time
again that they can produce and out-produce anybody else in the
world. Investments have been made in the corn ethanol industry,
and I want to make certain that this industry continues to
thrive.
Can you tell me your view of the economic benefits of the
RFS and what it has provided to the Midwestern corn farmers?
Ms. White. Yes, I would, and I would like to begin by
thanking Senator Ernst--I don't believe she is here right now--
for sending me some current data on a number of the points you
just made, sir. I second the President. I am supportive of all
of the above of energy sources; all have special purposes and
fill important niches.
As you know, the President recently clarified his support
for the Renewable Fuel Standard program, and I solidly support
his support. CEQ has no direct regulatory authority over the
Renewable Fuel Standard program, and I, of course, will support
the letter of the law.
What I like to say about the U.S. agriculture, never
underestimate the productivity and innovative capacity of U.S.
agriculture.
Senator Rounds. Let me go one step farther, then, to
clarify this. You have criticized the RFS in the past and the
impact that you believe that it would have on the global food
supply.
Ms. White. Right.
Senator Rounds. Can you elaborate on these statements and
your belief today with regard to the RFS and any impact it
would have on the global food supply?
Ms. White. I would be happy to. I, in the early years of
the program, made some particularly critical questions about
whether ethanol would challenge the global food supply. Later,
when I wrote a book, published 2 years ago, I erred by not
assuring that I had current data, and the data that has been
shared with me by Senator Ernst and others now, what a great
victory; and I congratulate the corn industry.
But the amount of increased productivity, how that has
increased the supply of corn, that it appears now, on the basis
of data now, there isn't any kind of inherent attention. There
is enough on the surfeit that it has been so productive, and I
salute the industry.
And as a child of rural America, I painfully observed over
much of my lifetime the decline of once vibrant small towns and
people who would so like to stay there, but there just is not
the employment. And an industry like ethanol has really
contributed to giving new life to rural communities and keeping
families together and all those things.
Senator Rounds. Very good.
Let me ask this also of both of you; and I will begin with
Mr. Wheeler, but I want both of you to answer this. In the
prior Administration there were several instances in which
regulations were promulgated based on what I believe to be
questionable science or without asking the science advisory
boards for their input. It increasingly seemed like politics
were replacing the science in the regulatory process.
I would like to know your views on sound science and on the
role that it plays in the Federal regulatory process, and I am
going to end with this, as well. It goes beyond just your view
of sound science, but being able to release the information
upon which environmental policies are being based so that we
can gain confidence in those decisions.
And I think--as Ranking Member Carper has indicated--I am a
firm believer that when requests from a member of the U.S.
Senate are made, if they are not responded to, that does not
provide confidence that the decisions have been made
appropriately. I don't care whether it is a Republican or a
Democrat Administration. That type of communication has to be
respected. And I would like your thoughts on both of those,
please.
Mr. Wheeler. First, I am not a scientist, but I would
certainly listen to the career scientists at the Agency and the
outside science advisory boards to the Agency on what is the
best available science at the time for any regulatory
decisions. And I also agree with you and believe that all that
should be out in the public for everybody to see, because I
think when we make informed decisions, and we explain to the
public why we are making the decisions, that is paramount to
what we do at the Agency.
Senator Rounds. Ms. Hartnett White.
Ms. White. I think it is key to have access to that data.
That is the bedrock data from which all kinds of other programs
and analyses occur.
Senator Rounds. The second part of my question was what
about communications between members of the U.S. Senate and
your offices; what is the belief? Do you believe that those
requests should be responded to?
Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely. I have a history on that with the
Committee that would take me a while, but I worked with Senator
Carper in 2001 to make sure that he had the Clear Skies data
that he was looking for, and I worked with Senator Jeffords'
staff in 2003 to try to make sure that they had the information
that they were requesting from the EPA.
Senator Rounds. Ms. Hartnett White.
Ms. White. And I agree, yes, I think that is essential to
making the full Federal Government work.
Senator Rounds. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Rounds.
Senator Carper. Chairman, can I ask unanimous consent for
the record that the six times that Ms. White has called for the
repeal of the Renewable Fuel Standard in the past decade, as
recently as last year, be made a part of the record?
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
[The referenced information follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. I would also point out that under Ms.
White's leadership from 2001 to 2007, the Texas Commission on
Environmental Quality issued administrative orders that
required payments of more than $47 million in penalties. During
that time, the Texas Attorney General's Office obtained civil
judicial orders in cases involving TCEQ that required payments
of more than $380 million, and I also ask unanimous consent
that we insert this into the record. Without objection.
[The referenced information follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. Senator Cardin.
Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank both of our nominees for their willingness
to serve in a very important public position.
Mr. Wheeler, I particularly want to underscore the message
you made in your opening statement to the career people at EPA.
I very much appreciate that statement. And I was impressed by
your highlight of maintaining your integrity, which, to me, is
not always easy. It is a proud accomplishment. It is always
good to see a person from our staff move on, so it is good to
see you here.
Mr. Wheeler. Thank you.
Senator Cardin. I want to first ask consent that a letter
signed by 47 conservation, environmental, and public health
organizations to members of this Committee in opposition to Ms.
White's confirmation be made part of the record based upon that
she should not be placed in such a pivotal position in an
agency whose mission she clearly does not believe in. I would
ask unanimous consent.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
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Senator Cardin. Ms. White, I want to follow up on some of
Senator Carper's points about your comments. Just last Friday,
the Trump administration released the fourth National Climate
Assessment for the U.S. Climate Research Program, reiterating
that human activity is the dominant cause of global temperature
rise.
Now, I say that in that COP 23 is convening this week in
Bonn, Germany, the twenty-third opportunity for the
international community to come together on climate issues, and
I particularly was concerned about an article you wrote that
contains much of what Senator Carper was referring to. The
article was Signing the Paris Agreement Is the Worst Way to
Celebrate Earth Day.
Now, when the climate agreement was signed, there were two
countries that did not participate; the rest of the global
community did. Those two countries have since now joined the
Paris agreement, so it was the entire global community that
came together, and now there is one country that is backing off
of it: the United States.
So I have a responsibility, as the Ranking Democrat on the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which has primary
responsibility over the international global discussions on
climate. So I questioned Secretary nominee Rex Tillerson as to
his views on this, and he was very open and said, yes, the
United States should be sitting at the table during climate
discussions with the international community, and yes, climate
change is real. There may be different ways of dealing with it,
but it is real, and we have to deal with it.
It seems to me that you don't believe climate change is
real.
Ms. White. I am uncertain.
Senator Cardin. You are uncertain.
Ms. White. No, I am not, I am sorry. I jumped ahead.
Climate change is of course real.
Senator Cardin. Does human activity affect climate change?
Ms. White. More than likely, but the extent to which I
think is very uncertain.
Senator Cardin. Have you relied on scientists to give you
that answer or not?
Ms. White. No, I had the question for a very long time.
Senator Cardin. So you have a distinguished background in
academics and humanities and religion.
Ms. White. Yes.
Senator Cardin. Which is fine. It is a wonderful field. You
are not a scientist, are you?
Ms. White. No, I am not a scientist, but in my personal
capacity I have many questions that remain unanswered by
current climate policy. I think we indeed need to have more
precise explanation of the human role and the natural role.
Senator Cardin. And where do you get that information from?
Ms. White. A wide range of information. The IPCC is a very
good source.
Senator Cardin. What is that?
Ms. White. United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change that has been the vehicle for ongoing assessment
of climate change.
Senator Cardin. What role do scientists play in this?
Ms. White. Many of them are the authors. There are
thousands of them involved in the whole, but they are, of
course, they are scientists.
Senator Cardin. Would you support the EPA allowing its
scientists to fully participate in all discussions?
Ms. White. I don't see why not. I think science should
overwhelmingly guide assessments and all of that, but I don't
think they dictate policy results.
Senator Cardin. Do you stand by your statement that carbon
dioxide, greenhouse gases are not dangerous at all to our
environment?
Ms. White. I would characterize it differently, but I would
say that, as I did earlier, it is likely that CO2
emissions from human activity have some influence on the
climate, but again, not to the extent, but CO2 in
the atmosphere has none of the characteristics of a pollutant
that contaminates and fouls and all of that that can have
direct impact on human health. As an atmospheric gas, it is a
plant nutrient.
Senator Cardin. One last question, Mr. Chairman, and that
is, you disagreed with the Supreme Court decision that said
that the EPA had a responsibility because of the impact of
greenhouse gases on public health. Are you now changing that or
do you still----
Ms. White. That was styled as the Massachusetts decision in
2007. That is the Supreme Court's ruling. That is the law of
the land.
Senator Cardin. But you think it was based on the wrong
scientific information?
Ms. White. No. I thought it was based on an overly
expansive reading of the definition of an air pollutant in the
Clean Air Act.
Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Cardin.
Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to
submit for the record materials relating to Ms. White's views
that higher carbon dioxide levels are not harmful to our
environment.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
[The referenced information follows:]
Senator Barrasso. Senator Fischer.
Senator Fischer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you both for being here today.
Mr. Wheeler, I appreciated you coming to meet with me, and
in our meeting we did discuss the importance of the RFS to my
State and to the viability, I believe, of all of rural America.
The Deputy Administrator plays an important role in
ensuring that the Renewable Fuel Standard functions according
to congressional intent. How familiar are you with the
President's commitment to the RFS and to biofuel production,
and will you uphold the President's commitment to the RFS?
Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Senator. I enjoyed our visit and
talking about this issue in your office.
The RFS is the law of the land, and I fully support the
program. I have not had specific conversation with the
President on this issue, but from all accounts, fully supports
the program and the intent of the program, and I support both
the law and the intent of the RFS program.
Senator Fischer. Thank you very much.
Ms. White, as I discussed in our meeting, I do have serious
concerns with numerous factually incorrect statements you have
made about the RFS. I worry about your lack of understanding
about the purpose of the law, which is to provide market access
for renewable fuels and to promote agriculture and to promote
rural America. As I have stated multiple times, I support an
all of the above energy policy, but I worry about your
extremist views and your role as an advisor to the President.
We are all aware of your statements and position on the
RFS. However, it is the law of the land. Should you be
confirmed, I would ask you will you echo President Trump's
support for the statute and uphold the congressional intent of
the RFS?
Ms. White. Yes, I would. That is what I understand as
upholding the rule of law.
Senator Fischer. Do you think it is important to provide
the President with accurate, factual information when you
provide him with options on issues, if you are confirmed?
Ms. White. Absolutely. And that advice needs to be based on
the most solid, informed, robust science and data.
Senator Fischer. In our conversation in my office, and in
your answers to Senator Rounds, you did state that you used
flawed data as recently as 2014, as recently as 2016 with
regards to the RFS in making statements such as ethanol
policies of the United States have led to food riots in several
countries over the last few years. That was in 2014.
I would ask you if you can guarantee in any way to us that
you will check data, that you will check facts, that you will,
in your capacity, if you are confirmed in this position, to
always, always check and make sure you are providing that
accurate information to the President of the United States when
you give him options?
Ms. White. The specific question, please?
Senator Fischer. Will you use facts when you are presenting
options?
Ms. White. Oh, of course.
Senator Fischer. And current data.
Ms. White. And the 2014 statements you are talking about
was a part of the book.
Senator Fischer. Will you use current data and facts?
Ms. White. Yes, I will, unquestionably.
Senator Fischer. Thank you.
I would remind people that we are talking about more than
corn here. Of course, when we talk about the RFS and renewable
fuels, we are looking at second generation biodiesel. We are
looking at our soybean growers, as well. This is a huge issue
for rural America, and we need to take it seriously.
As a follow up, Ms. White, there have been press reports
about some interest in altering the RFS before 2022. I would
ask would you commit to me today that, should you be confirmed,
you would not support opening up the RFS before 2022?
Ms. White. I would support the President's position in
that.
Senator Fischer. So you will not commit that to me at this
point?
Ms. White. I can't really prejudge that.
Senator Fischer. OK.
Ms. White. And I might also add it is not because, at
another time, I would feel comfortable making a clearer
position.
Senator Fischer. OK, fair enough. Thank you.
Mr. Wheeler, we also discussed the importance of
communication between the EPA and stakeholders that are
impacted by regulations. For many years I have heard a lot of
frustrations from constituents about the lack of dedication at
the EPA to assist with compliance requirements for communities
and for businesses.
Sometimes we have seen in the previous years really an
agency that I think works on a gotcha mentality instead of
looking at a collaborative approach. So I would ask you if you
would look at using collaborative or cooperation with
federalism in working with States and local communities, and
really being an agency that assists States and local
communities to meet and be in compliance with regulations that
are so very important for us.
Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely, Senator. Administrator Pruitt's
commitment to cooperative federalism I think goes right along
with what you just said, and I am looking forward to helping
him implement that.
Senator Fischer. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Fischer.
Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, can I make a unanimous
consent request that a number of references in recent years to
paganism, communism, relating that to climate change from Ms.
White be entered into the record, please?
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
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Senator Barrasso. Senator Booker.
Senator Booker. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Hartnett White, I am very concerned about environmental
justice issues in our country, and I have this belief--which I
don't think is radical--that every American should have access
to clean air, clean water, even clean soil to plant in. Because
of the issues of urban areas, I live in the central ward of
Newark and see how challenging the exposure to particulate
matter is for children in my city that I was mayor of; asthma
rates off the charts, teachers complaining about even just
being able to educate kids because of the level of kids'
missing school because of asthma.
But this is not just a New Jersey problem. I have traveled,
since I have been on this Committee, to Duplin County, North
Carolina, where people who live around CAFOs have alarming
rates not just of cancers, but also of respiratory diseases. A
few months ago I was in a place unfortunately nicknamed Cancer
Alley in Louisiana, between Baton Rouge and New Orleans, where
again, particulate matter released by petrochemical plants has
people literally gasping for air at alarming rates.
A lot of my colleagues have already mentioned some of your
alarming rhetoric on some of these issues, but I just really
have an urgent concern about your views of the dangers of
particulate matter in some of your past statements. I was
really shocked when my staff pulled documents that showed that
at an Americans for Prosperity conference in 2011, you publicly
stated that ``people do not die from particulate matter
levels.'' Then again in 2013 you testified actually before a
House subcommittee and said that ``In the last 5 years, EPA's
regulatory initiatives have been preoccupied with particulate
matter as if it was a source of major risk to premature
mortality.''
I look at a lot of the data and studies, and I had my staff
pull for the hearing, and they pulled one study, which is one
of the most comprehensive, really an unprecedented study that
was published in the New England Journal of Medicine from
Harvard University, which looked at 60 million Medicaid
participants, 60 million people over a 12-year period,
longitudinal study of an unprecedented nature, with far more
statistical power than any previous analyses done.
The researchers looked at every American over 65, including
people in rural places like I named and urban places like I
live in, and the analysis unequivocally linked long term
exposure to ozone and fine particulate matter to an increased
risk of premature death. The study found, in fact, no evidence
of safe levels of exposure to particulate matter. It really
sounded the alarm.
And I will tell you what is disturbing to me is how this
particulate matter seems to affect low income people. It
affects poor folks, and as a result, disproportionately people
of color. And they show that the higher risk of premature
deaths for African-Americans, for example, are three times
higher. Three times higher.
So I just really need to understand your position on the
urgency of particulate matter and dealing with this
environmental justice. So maybe the specific question, first of
all, do you think the New England Journal of Medicine is wrong
in this study about the crisis of particulate matter?
Ms. White. Senator, I would have to read it before I answer
that. But if I may, I would like to tell you about some work I
am proud of regarding environmental justice in Texas.
Senator Booker. You will forgive me, but I only have a
minute and 10 seconds left, so I just would like to push you a
little bit. So you think the New England Medical Journal of
Medicine might publish a study that isn't scientifically sound?
Ms. White. I think there's all different kinds of
methodologies, and if I were still at TCEQ, I would gather my
chief toxicologist and his staff, the professionals, to
completely absorb that and brief me on it.
Senator Booker. So I think what I am trying to get at is do
you or do you not believe that we have a crisis of particulate
matter in the United States of America in certain communities
now, especially low income communities?
Ms. White. Why, when the bulk of the country attains the
national ambient air quality standard for fine particulate
matter, that, to me, is confusing, if there is a crisis.
Senator Booker. Well, I don't find it confusing; I find it
really concerning, as we have a nation right now with the No. 1
reason why kids miss school, medical reason, is asthma; that we
see that disproportionately in communities that are dealing
with real problems with particulate matter, whether it is
highways, airports, CAFOs, or the like.
I find it deeply, deeply concerning your past statements
and your inability right now to say for the record that you
think there is a crisis in this country with particulate matter
and the respiratory diseases that are affecting so many of our
children. To take a position that is supposed to be protecting
people to a fundamental American right of clean air, clean
water, I have grave concerns about your nomination.
But my time has expired.
Senator Barrasso. Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, could I ask unanimous consent
that Ms. White's views be entered into the record relating to
her view that particulate matter does not harm human health,
please?
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
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Senator Barrasso. I would also like to point out that Dan
Patrick, the Lieutenant Governor of Texas, has written in
support of Ms. White's nomination. He goes on to say, ``Ms.
White has over 30 years' experience on environmental issues,
served as Chair of the Texas Commission on Environmental
Quality and as Director of the Texas Water Development Board
and the Lower Colorado River Authority.'' He goes on to say,
``Her record is outstanding.''
Unanimous consent to enter this into the record.
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Senator Barrasso. Senator Ernst.
Senator Ernst. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And thank you to our witnesses and nominees today.
While campaigning, then-candidate Trump made numerous
pledges to support biofuels and the Renewable Fuel Standard.
You see it has been a topic that has been brought up a lot this
morning. And he had reiterated those commitments as President,
as well. He understands the value of an all of the above
approach to energy production that helps our nation unlock all
of our bounty--regardless of where that comes from--from oil
and gas to wind, solar, and biofuels.
Specifically, biofuels form the bedrock of our rural
communities and support our farmers, while helping to further
our domestic energy independence. We are producing and
consuming more biofuels now than ever before, and yet the price
of corn and soybeans, the primary feedstocks for producing
biodiesel and ethanol, are at the lowest levels in decades.
Right now, at the Merc, in Red Oak, cash corn is right
around $3 a bushel, and soybeans are under $9, and both of
these numbers are well below our cost of production. So, today,
as my husband sits in the tractor helping my sister and
brother-in-law with harvest, they are finding that their return
on the investment is very, very low. The prices are so low that
farmers working around the clock to bring in this huge crop are
losing money on every acre. And I think this should put the
food versus fuel debate to rest for good.
EPA Administrator Pruitt has already done so much to help
our farmers and ranchers, including rolling back the onerous
WOTUS rule. He has also committed to me on several occasions,
including in front of this Committee, to uphold both the spirit
and the letter of the law, and I want to thank both of you for
making that commitment, as Senator Fischer had asked, in front
of this Committee today. So thank you for doing that.
Ms. White, during our meeting last week, I had the chance
to ask you about your qualifications for this role, as well as
your past criticisms of the RFS and biofuels, particularly the
food versus fuel argument, which is something I believe Senator
Rounds also addressed. In light of the current market forces at
work in the ag economy, which I touched on in my opening, has
your position on this changed?
Ms. White. On the food?
Senator Ernst. Food versus fuel.
Ms. White. Yes. This data, you know, is great news, because
the ethanol program doesn't somehow create some problem with
meeting global food demand.
Senator Ernst. Thank you. And if confirmed, you will be
working closely with the President in your advisory role at
CEQ. The President has made clear on numerous occasions that he
intends to uphold both the spirit and the letter of the RFS. Do
you envision any scenarios out there in which you would offer
advice to the President or support policies that run contrary
to his agenda or campaign promises?
Ms. White. There is none that comes to mind, but you know,
matters change, so I couldn't, you know, exactly predict what
would be the variables involved.
Senator Ernest. Should those variables change, though, you
will do your best to work with varying points of view to make
sure that the information is accurate and presented
appropriately to the President?
Ms. White. Absolutely.
Senator Ernst. OK, thank you.
And also for Mr. Wheeler, the primary concern that many of
the opponents of the RFS have raised is the price of compliance
credits, or the RINs, and one way we have suggested to mitigate
that is to address the Reid vapor pressure, or RVP, issue,
which would make E15 and higher blends of ethanol available
year round nationwide. There is some debate as to whether or
not this RVP issue can be addressed administratively or whether
it requires legislation, such as the bill that was introduced
by Senator Fischer.
If confirmed, would you commit to issuing a determination
on whether the EPA can do this administratively?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes. I just want to make sure that I am not
committing to predetermine what the outcome would be.
Senator Ernst. Exactly.
Mr. Wheeler. But if I understood your question correctly,
then, yes.
Senator Ernest. Yes or no, yes, that you could do it
administratively. We need to know that.
Mr. Wheeler. Not prejudging that yes or no, yes, I could
commit to providing one of those at the appropriate time.
Senator Ernst. Thank you. I appreciate that, because we
need that determination from the EPA. If you are not able to
handle the RVP issue administratively, then we need to turn to
a bill or do it legislatively, such as Senator Fischer has
presented, so we would need to work that issue through
Congress. And I do look forward to working with you on this
issue. I think we do need to make E15 available year round, and
again, work on our energy independence, as the President has
made this one of his goals.
So, with that, Mr. Chairman, I thank you for my time.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Ernst.
Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, can I make another unanimous
consent request?
Senator Barrasso. Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. If I could submit for the record a November
7, 2017, letter from the Delaware Riverkeeper Network to
members of our Committee. The letter urges the Committee to
reject Ms. White's nomination on the basis that her record is
of loyalty and bias in favor of the fossil fuel industry. The
letter states, ``Someone who claims that `there are no major
environmental problems' facing our country has no business
developing and implementing environmental policy at a time when
our nation is facing the greatest environmental threats as ever
encountered.''
That is the end of the quote. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
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Senator Barrasso. Also for the record, I would like to
introduce by Dr. Bryan Shaw, the Chairman of the Texas
Commission on Environmental Quality, that was written in
support of Ms. White's nomination. Dr. Shaw explains, ``As the
current TCEQ Chairman, I have a unique perspective on her
contribution to this agency. Serving as the TCEQ chairman is no
easy feat, and she served the State of Texas with grace and
poise.'' He goes on to say, ``As evidenced by her career and
background in environmental regulations, Kathleen is more than
capable to serve as the Chairman of the Council on
Environmental Quality.''
Ask unanimous consent. Without objection.
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Senator Barrasso. Senator Markey.
Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very much.
Ms. White, your positions are so far out of the mainstream
that they are not just outliers, they are outrageous; and from
my perspective, you have a fringe voice that denies science and
economics and reality. So I would like to turn to a subject
here that you have commented on, and that is the renewable
industry. You said in 2016, ``Renewables are a false hope that
simply won't work.'' In the same piece you said, ``Intermittent
renewables are parasitic on backup power from reliable fossil
fuels.''
Well, wind power is now up to 7 percent of all of our
electricity. In 2020 we are projected to have 120,000 megawatts
of wind, and we now have over 100,000 Americans working in the
wind industry. By 2020 we are going to have half a million
Americans working in the wind and solar industry--half a
million Americans. Most of them are good paying, blue collar
jobs. These are roofers, they are electricians, they are steel
workers, they are people who are going to be engineers working
on the turbines.
Are you saying that these 500,000 people are parasitic,
that they are working for an industry that is parasitic and
harming America?
Ms. White. I would like to make two points of
clarification. The false hope phrase comes from one of the
several engineers hired by Google to come out with a plan where
you could really be powered by 90 percent by renewables when
that was their conclusion, that as a matter of physics
renewables----
Senator Markey. Do you think the wind and solar blue collar
workers are working for a parasitic industry?
Ms. White. In using the word parasitic, I was only
referring to the fact that when you have an intermittent energy
source, you have to have a backup with a steady state reliable
source. I was not talking about any employees.
Senator Markey. Well, the impression you leave is that this
is not a real industry, that wind and solar are not actually
playing a vital part in producing new energy in our country,
whether it be in Iowa, which is now upwards of 35 or 40 percent
of all electricity with wind, and State after State. So I just
think it is an unfortunate and cruel characterization of all of
these workers, and it will be a half a million by 2020, at the
current pace, most of them blue collar.
If it was 50,000 coal miners, you would never say that
about coal miners. But why would you say it about the 500,000
blue collar workers who are in the renewable energy? It is just
absolutely wrong, and calling them inconsequential is even more
wrong in terms of your economic analysis. It is a very real
addition, and it is growing, and that is what is most fearful
in the hearts of the coal industry. But you can't characterize
them in a way, these workers; that is so painful, I am sure, to
hear them be described as working in industries that aren't
contributing dramatically to American economic growth.
Mr. Wheeler, as a former lobbyist for Murray Energy, you
have made a career working on behalf of the fossil fuel
industry to eviscerate regulations designed to protect public
health and the environment. Murray Energy has sued EPA to stop
clean air and water protections. Five of those cases are
ongoing. As EPA Deputy Administrator, you would be in a
position to serve as plaintiff, defendant, judge, and jury of
these ongoing five lawsuits.
Will you agree to recuse yourself from these lawsuits which
Murray Energy brought against the EPA not just for 1 year, but
for the entirety of the time that you are the Deputy
Administrator of the EPA? Will you commit to recusing yourself
from any of those matters?
Mr. Wheeler. Two points. First of all, I am not sure which
of the five. My law firm did not represent Murray in any of the
litigation against the EPA. I have talked to the career ethics
officials at the Agency, and I have had preliminary discussions
with them on my recusals, what I would have to do, and I am
going to follow the guidance that they have given me, and I
will not be meeting with my former clients or my former law
firm, in following the advice and guidance of the career ethics
officials at the Agency.
Senator Markey. Will you recuse yourself from the lawsuits,
which are still ongoing, that have been brought by the interest
that you were representing before you were nominated for this
position?
Mr. Wheeler. Again, Senator, I will abide by the guidance
and requirements given to me by the career ethics officials at
the Agency on what I would have to recuse myself from. At this
point, in discussions with them, I don't anticipate needing any
waivers. I will be recusing myself from any work where there is
a conflict going forward.
Senator Markey. I am just afraid you are going to wind up
as the plaintiff, defendant, judge, and jury in one of these
five matters, and I just think it would be wrong.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Inhofe [presiding]. Thank you, Senator Markey.
First of all, right now I don't think I will ask any
questions of Andrew Wheeler since he worked with me and for me
for 14 years. There is nothing I could ask that I don't already
know. You will be a great, great help to the EPA.
I would like to make one observation though. All the
discussion on this side has discussed the RFS. The RFS, in
fact, is really in the jurisdiction of the EPA and not the CEQ.
Actually, Andrew, that is your problem and not hers.
Let me say to Ms. White, I understand several of the
extremists are driving a narrative that you hate the
environment and worked to give cover to polluters when you were
at Texas Commission CEQ. However, I was looking at the
enforcement numbers of the Texas CEQ during your tenure. To me,
it looks like a number of administrative orders and amounts of
penalties increased significantly. I think that is very
important because you had a job to be agnostic in terms of who
you were criticizing and blaming and so forth. Would you
address that?
Ms. White. I would be happy to. I might share with you an
example of my commitment to environmental protection. I really
think totally in terms of fundamental protection of human
health and welfare. Risk to children particularly motivates me.
In response to an environmental justice issue, we had a
program where we went to key plants within the vast Houston
industrial petrochemical complex and really increased the
amount of air monitors so we could really know what we were
dealing with. We required that operators of the industries in
question had fence line monitors, very expensive things to do.
We got the data. We had sensors on the families who were most
concerned or who had demonstrable health impact so we could get
that information. We worked back to the industry to operate in
a way that minimized or eliminated the troubling pollution.
Senator Inhofe. How about penalties?
Ms. White. Yes, and a lot of those were following Federal
Clean Air Act, Federal Clean Water Act, very important and
essential portions of environmental protection. I took that
very seriously.
I think, regrettably, part of the reason why we were able
to reduce emissions so much was that there was certain
enforcement, if there was any departure from their permits that
could possibly have been controlled.
Senator Inhofe. Information that I have, which I think
needs to be in the record, is that you have penalized companies
that did not comply with the very thing that has been emanating
from the other side of the aisle.
Ms. White. We have 16 regional offices in Texas, and almost
all are devoted to investigations and enforcement actions if
they are needed.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you very much.
We have had 8 years of an Administration that does not want
fossil fuels, coal, oil, and gas, and does not want nuclear.
Yet sometimes you just have to appeal to logic and ask the
question. If well over 80 percent of the energy it takes to run
America is either fossil fuels or nuclear, and you extract that
from all of the above, how do you run the machine called
America? Another way of putting it is, are there risks
associated with solely relying on renewable energy?
Ms. White. We have seen in other countries that is the case
in Germany and the UK. I might qualify by saying I am not as
current on these numbers as previously, but the average retail
electric rates in Germany are two to three times higher than
the average retail rates in this country in significant part
for the reason that they are very aggressive.
Senator Inhofe. I would further say you have actually been
criticized for some of the penalties that have come from your
office in the State of Texas. I know that is true because I
know some of the individuals.
As chair of the Texas CEQ, one of your responsibilities was
to review applications for new electricity generation. Can you
tell us about the process you used when deciding whether to
permit new electricity generation?
Ms. White. We followed the law, first of all, importantly,
the Clean Air Act as interpreted by EPA. We required all kinds
of maybe more data, meaningful modeling, and robust science as
a part of that.
They are permits that derive from the Federal Clean Air
Act, but we did the permits in a very, very strict way.
Senator Inhofe. I appreciate that very much. My time has
expired.
I wanted to show and demonstrate what you, as the
Administrator of the Texas CEQ, did in following the law
regardless of who was responsible. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, there is another voice from Texas that has a
rather different view of Ms. Hartnett White. That is the Dallas
Morning News, the local newspaper which under the headline,
Trump Errs in Naming Climate Denier and Former Texas Regulator
to Environmental Post, went on to say, ``Her performance as an
environmental regulator in Texas suggests that she would lock
step in dismantling vital environmental protections.''
They described her record as, ``abominable.'' They
described her as ``an apologist for energy interests.'' They
concluded by saying, ``The nation needs a White House advisor
who respects science and seeks a reasoned balance between
energy needs and environmental protections. Kathleen Hartnett
White does neither.''
They went on to put in a kind of special extra section with
a list of bullet points on why Kathleen Hartnett White is wrong
for the job. I would ask unanimous consent that the Texas
editorial be put into the record.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
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print.]
Senator Whitehouse. Mr. Wheeler, was anything happening
when you climbed Kilimanjaro that relates to fossil fuel
emissions?
Mr. Wheeler. The air was very thin, if you are referring to
the glacier.
Senator Whitehouse. I am asking you, was anything happening
on Kilimanjaro?
Mr. Wheeler. The glacier is still there on top.
Senator Whitehouse. That is not answering my question.
Mr. Wheeler. I did not understand your question, then.
Senator Whitehouse. Was there anything going on that you
are aware of, did you learn anything about what was happening
on Mt. Kilimanjaro that relates to fossil fuel emissions?
Mr. Wheeler. No, sir.
Senator Whitehouse. Nothing. OK.
You are a lobbyist for Murray Energy?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, Murray Energy is one of my clients.
Senator Whitehouse. The head of Murray Energy, Bob Murray,
has said that he has a 3-page plan that is being implemented by
Scott Pruitt at the EPA. He said they are already through the
first page. What can you tell us about Bob Murray's 3-page plan
that he claims Scott Pruitt is implementing at the EPA?
Mr. Wheeler. I did not work on that, and I do not have a
copy of that memo.
Senator Whitehouse. Would you be able to get your hands on
one?
Mr. Wheeler. I also have client confidentiality concerns
with my clients as well. I don't have a copy of the memo, no.
Senator Whitehouse. We also have disclosure interests when
you are a candidate for a significant Federal position. Are you
asserting that there is attorney-client privilege between you
and Murray Energy Corporation with respect to the 3-page plan?
Mr. Wheeler. I have deregistered representing him as of
August. I don't have one in my possession.
Senator Whitehouse. Have you seen it?
Mr. Wheeler. I saw it briefly at the beginning of the year,
but I don't have a copy of it.
Senator Whitehouse. Do you recall anything about it?
Mr. Wheeler. No. I don't even know how many pages it was. I
think you said it was three pages?
Senator Whitehouse. That is what Bob Murray said it was. I
have never seen it, so I would not know, but he said he had a
3-page plan that Scott Pruitt is implementing for him at the
EPA and that he is through the first page for Bob Murray
already. I am trying to inquire about that.
You said you have seen it. Does it look like three pages,
two pages, or four pages? You are the one who saw it.
Mr. Wheeler. Somewhere around there. I did not have it in
my possession. I looked at it and handed it back to him.
Senator Whitehouse. Do you remember where you were when you
looked at it and what the context was for that conversation?
Mr. Wheeler. No, actually, I don't. It may have been in our
offices, but I don't remember.
Senator Whitehouse. ``Our offices'' meaning your law firm?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
Senator Whitehouse. I guess I will try to follow that up
further with questions for the record because I think it is
something of a significant situation if the CEO of a regulated
industry is saying he has given his regulator a 3-page plan and
takes credit for having gotten through the first page of it
already. We have a candidate for Deputy Administrator who said
he has seen it and confirm that it exists.
I think the American people are entitled to an EPA that is
not following a coal company's 3-page plan but is following
wherever the best interests of the American people lead,
wherever the best interests of real science leads.
I hope the Chairman will allow us to consider pursuing how
we get our hands on this 3-page plan that Mr. Wheeler has seen
and that evidently, according to Mr. Murray, is now driving
what happens at EPA.
I have one question for Ms. Hartnett White. Are you aware
of anything that is happening in the oceans that relates to
fossil fuel emissions?
Ms. White. There are probably a number of them.
Senator Whitehouse. Name a few.
Ms. White. I have a very superficial understanding as far
as that. Acidification issues are one. I have not read widely
or deeply. I have read some with different perspectives, some
of which suggest that it is a very, very fragile set of changes
in acidification and others that say for long eons in
geological history, there are certain places where certain
oceans may have changes in acidification levels but not others.
Changes up or down are not inherently a problem, but no, I
cannot speak as an authority on that. I am aware it is one of
the multiple key issues as far as potential impacts of manmade
global warming.
Senator Whitehouse. My time has expired, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you for letting me go over about 50 seconds.
Senator Barrasso. Senator Boozman.
Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you all for being here and your willingness to serve.
I just came back from the floor of the Senate. I was
speaking about a veterans' bill that myself and Senator Wyden
had worked on together and were successful in getting it
eventually put into another bill and passed. It is an important
thing that really will make a difference for several
individuals in the military.
Over the years, Mr. Wheeler, you have been an integral part
of helping this Committee pass many important pieces of
legislation. Like the Veterans Committee, this Committee has
areas where we do not have a lot of agreement, but we have
other areas where we have tremendous agreement. You have played
a big part in helping us put those together.
A lot of people don't understand how difficult it is
getting a comprehensive, bipartisan piece of legislation
passed. How do you feel your role as a staff member at the EPW
Committee has prepared you to bring people from all walks of
life to the table to develop and implement important EPA
regulations?
Mr. Wheeler. Working here for 14 years, I worked on a
number of different bipartisan bills, including three different
highway bills, several WRDA bills, the Diesel Emissions
Reduction Act with Senators Carper and Inhofe, and brownfields
legislation.
Throughout the time I spent here, I met with a wide variety
of people with concerns and problems before the Federal
Government that needed help from Congress, not just legislative
help but help with agencies.
It ties back to my time when I worked at the EPA at the
beginning of my career. I think between my time here working on
the different bipartisan bills and trying to work across the
aisle, there were a number of bills that we tried to work
across the aisle that we just were not able to get over the
finish line over the years.
I learned lessons not only from our accomplishments but
also from some of our failures. I think what I learned most of
all is that both sides come to the table with strong views
sometimes, but wanting to do the right thing.
It is important to try to work past some of the politics to
get to solutions that help the American people.
Senator Boozman. Very good.
You mentioned just now your time at EPA and EPW and got
some good environmental outcomes that also provided regulatory
certainty for the country. Can you talk about the benefit to
the environment and economic benefits when you have regulatory
certainty?
Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely. I think regulatory certainty is
very important. In my time working with a number of different
clients and different industries, it is not that people are out
there trying to figure out what to do wrong or how to break a
rule or regulation. They want to know what the rules are and
want to know with certainty as they move forward with projects,
what they have to do and what the requirements are.
I think it is incumbent upon the EPA to make sure that is
clear for anyone trying to do business in the United States. I
don't think we would have as many violations if everyone
understood what the requirements were and what they had to do.
Senator Boozman. A criticism of EPA during the previous
Administration, in fact I would say Administrations in general,
was the Agency's disconnect with rural America. Many
hardworking Americans in rural States felt they did not have a
voice with past Administrations and that their opinions did not
matter.
If confirmed, what would you do to facilitate a stronger
level of trust between EPA and rural America?
Mr. Wheeler. I have an absolute respect for rural America.
In my first year working for Senator Inhofe, I went out to
Oklahoma and put 1,000 miles on a rental car driving all over
the State and a lot of small communities. I understand the
problems they face.
I understand the need for EPA to work with the States,
through the regions with the States and the local communities
to make sure everyone understands what the environmental
priorities are, what the environmental requirements are, and to
work with people to make sure we can have a clean and safe
environment, protect the public health and environment, and
have job security and economic growth.
Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Boozman.
Senator Merkley.
Senator Merkley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wheeler, you noted that your client, Murray Energy,
showed you a 3-page plan on how to dramatically change the EPA.
At the time you saw that plan, were you already a nominee for
this position?
Mr. Wheeler. No, I was not.
Senator Merkley. Did the client express interest that he
hoped you would be able to help advance that plan?
Mr. Wheeler. No.
Senator Merkley. Why did your client show you that plan?
Mr. Wheeler. This was back in either December or January,
almost a year ago.
Senator Merkley. Was it in the interest of having your help
to promote it?
Mr. Wheeler. No, it was just to look at it, to see what
they had put together.
Senator Merkley. Ms. White, you said ``There is no
environmental crisis. In fact, there is almost no environmental
problem.'' Do you still believe that?
Ms. White. I would not put it that way.
Senator Merkley. You did put it that way. Do you still
agree with that statement you made previously?
Ms. White. I would qualify it. That is not what I intended
to say.
Senator Merkley. What do you consider to be the top three
environmental problems?
Ms. White. Air quality, and I think a very current one,
increasing risk from failing wastewater or drinking water
treatment infrastructure, and I would say for the importance of
an issue, climate change.
Senator Merkley. You are telling us today that you believe
that air quality is an issue even though you previously said
you don't think particulates are a problem and that the ozone
problem is solved?
Ms. White. I don't know from what documents you are finding
those statements but they may be out of context. I said or have
intended to say, talking about the very significant improvement
and the positive trends.
Senator Merkley. You do believe that lead and arsenic in
the water, mercury in the air, particulates in the area are
significant problems that need to be improved?
Ms. White. At certain exposures.
Senator Merkley. But currently, there is pollution that
needs to be reduced?
Ms. White. Again, given that I have not been inside.
Senator Merkley. No, no, you are an expert on air quality.
Do you believe there is air around the country that has
pollutants that need to be reduced?
Ms. White. There are certain areas.
Senator Merkley. Particulates, fine particulates, do you
believe that?
Ms. White. Different pollutants implicated in different
places.
Senator Merkley. Fine particulates, do you believe they
need to be reduced?
Ms. White. At certain exposures.
Senator Merkley. Coral reefs around the world are dying. Do
you consider that an environmental problem?
Ms. White. If they were.
Senator Merkley. You said if they were?
Ms. White. If they were, I have no knowledge of those
issues. I know it is an issue, but I have no specific
knowledge.
Senator Merkley. Of course, you are not a scuba diver, you
haven't gone to the coral reefs yourself, but you are asking us
to confirm you for an environmental position. When we talked in
the office, I raised the issue of coral reefs, and you said,
``I am not a scientist.'' You are not a doctor either, but you
go to the doctor, right?
Ms. White. Right.
Senator Merkley. Scientists are telling us coral reefs are
dying, and you say, if it is happening. Don't you believe it is
happening based on the reports from around the world?
Ms. White. I would need to read some statement of that
science.
Senator Merkley. Are you familiar with the dramatic drop in
ice in the Arctic and the impacts on the environment there?
Ms. White. Yes.
Senator Merkley. In that case, you do believe what
scientists are reporting?
Ms. White. No.
Senator Merkley. You do not believe what scientists are
reporting?
Ms. White. I need to study and learn and look at that. It
is from multiple science.
Senator Merkley. Do you believe the scientists when they
talk about the melting permafrost?
Ms. White. Yes, but I would like to finish my sentence. I
am aware of the shrinking ice sheet in the Arctic, but the
expanding ice sheet in the Antarctic.
Senator Merkley. Are you familiar with the Red Zone?
Ms. White. Red Zone?
Senator Merkley. Red Zone of dying trees?
Ms. White. Off coast, right.
Senator Merkley. Yes, dying because pine beetles are doing
so much better in warm winters. When you say those who are
concerned about global warming are paganists, totalitarianists,
and Marxists, do you believe Oregon's farmers who are concerned
about three worst ever droughts with the impact of climate
changes are Marxists or totalitarians or pagans?
Ms. White. I believe those words, Senator, with all due
respect, have been taken out of context.
Senator Merkley. They are words directly from your
writings. How about Oregon's timber workers who are very
concerned about the pine beetles killing the forests? Are they
pagans because they see the impact of climate change destroying
the forests?
Ms. White. To answer yes or no, no.
Senator Merkley. No, you don't. Why did you say these
things then? It is not just one quote; it is multiple quotes
calling environmentalists Marxists and those concerned about
climate change as pagans?
Ms. White. I think I submitted about 100 pages of either
commentaries or research studies I have done in that entire
purpose. There may be some mistakes.
Senator Merkley. Here is my summary. Do you believe the
planet is getting warmer?
Ms. White. Yes.
Senator Merkley. Because it can be measured. Do you believe
carbon dioxide levels have gone up dramatically? It can be
measured. Scientists measure it every day.
Ms. White. No, I would not say they have gone up
drastically. I know they have risen from pre-industrial times.
Senator Merkley. They went up from 295 ppm to over 408 ppm,
and the rate of pollution has gone up from 1 ppm per year to 3
ppm or nearly 2.5 to 3 ppm per year. You are unfamiliar with
the details of that?
Ms. White. No, I am familiar with those.
Senator Merkley. I have a chart behind me.
Senator Barrasso. We are going to have a second round, and
your time has expired.
Senator Merkley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will come to
those.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
We will head to the second round of questions.
Mr. Wheeler, before your time on Capitol Hill, I know you
spent time working at the EPA as a career official. This fact
caught the attention of my friend, Senator Carper, who said in
a recent interview about you, ``I think having worked in the
agency, he actually cares about the environment, the air we
breathe, the water we drink, and the planet on which we live.''
Can you talk a bit about how your time as a career official
with the agency would shape your leadership style as deputy
administrator at the EPA?
Mr. Wheeler. I would say my time at the agency, having
worked with the career employees there, plus my legislative
time here on how laws are drafted, and then my time over the
last 8 years on how they are implemented, has really helped me
understand a better, full picture.
I was very pleased with the work I did at the Agency. I
worked on the Toxics Release Inventory and the Right to Know
law, I worked on expanding that. I worked on getting TSCA
information out to the public. I won a few awards while I was
at the agency.
I understand the power of the data and information that the
agency has and the importance of getting that out to the public
for people to know about the chemicals released where they live
and the impacts that could have on public health and the
environment.
I think the time I spent in the Right to Know Program at
the agency was very formative in my development as an
environmental attorney.
Senator Barrasso. Ms. White, different Administrations
obviously have different priorities for the CEQ. Could you talk
a bit about what you and the Administration you hope to join
see as the CEQ's role in formulating environmental policy?
Ms. White. Given the two Acts passed not long ago, the
highway bills, I always get the acronyms wrong, I recognize a
real problem we have with the links of permit timeframes, the
cost of environmental reviews, and impediments they present to
urgently needed infrastructure.
I think the infrastructure package, if you will, some of
which has been created in new laws, some of which has been
expressed in executive orders, most recently the mid-August
executive order from President Trump about reducing permit
timeframes with quite a bit of detail, this could well be a
time, and I would welcome the challenge to make very
significant changes in environmental review, mostly to shorten
the process, reduce the cost and uncertainty, duplication and
all those things.
I think that is not a small task. Lots of people have tried
to do similar things in different Administrations. It is really
hard to change the way agencies operate to move the ball
forward, but I think that would be very important and could be
of historical importance.
It takes 50 permits, 9 years, and $7 billion, and then the
investors withdraw from the project. We are in trouble in this
country if we cannot permit needed infrastructure in a timely
manner.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Mr. Wheeler, during your over 25-year career, you have had
an opportunity to work on environmental issues impacting lots
of different areas of the country. Senator Boozman asked you
about rural communities, and you talked about all the time
driving around in rural areas.
Can you talk a bit about how you will work to ensure that
the EPA treats rural States, like my home State of Wyoming,
fairly and equitably when developing and enforcing
environmental policies?
Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely. First, I would say everyone I met
in rural areas of our country cared deeply about the
environment where they live. In fact, they are some of the best
stewards of the environment we have.
Again, working with Administrator Pruitt on his cooperative
federalism, working with the States, working with the local
governments, I think is vital to going forward and making sure
that everyone understands the need to protect the environment
and what are the requirements from the EPA so we can work
together.
Senator Barrasso. Senator Merkley.
Senator Merkley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. White, I was about to show you a chart which I will
show you now. That chart shows the information that has come
from the fourth National Climate Assessment put forward by the
Trump administration, by the combined work of the EPA, NOAA,
the Department of Energy, and several other agencies within the
Government.
It shows their estimate of the best work of their
scientists of the impact of human activity versus natural
activity on climate change or climate disruption. Can you see
that OK?
Ms. White. Yes.
Senator Merkley. The first red column is a human caused
impact from the Trump administration's EPA and fellow agency
report, solar flare activity which is often raised, and
volcanic activity, which is often raised. Which of these bars,
the red, orange, or the green, is the highest?
Ms. White. Obviously, the red.
Senator Merkley. The red, the human caused activity. Is it
dramatically different from the impact of solar caused
activity?
Ms. White. Could you briefly summarize what methodology was
used to measure that increment of human activity?
Senator Merkley. Yes, I can, but as an expert on the
atmosphere, I would think you actually have a better command of
that. The scientists looked at the carbon dioxide and its
impact on raising temperatures and how much was created by
volcanic activity or how much temperature indirectly was caused
by solar activity, solar flares, and so forth, and then human
activity.
The primary function, there are some other global warming
gases, and I am sure you are familiar, but the primary activity
is the burning of fossil fuels and the production of carbon
dioxide. Is there a dramatic difference between the human
caused impact and the solar impact?
Ms. White. Yes.
Senator Merkley. I know you said before you are not a
scientist, but this is the Trump administration's report. Do
you accept the results of this report?
Ms. White. I view this report really as the product of the
past Administration and not of the present. It was, I think, up
for a certain draft of it before.
Senator Merkley. When you told me that you would look to
the scientists for insight and the scientists produced these
numbers, you are now rejecting them?
Ms. White. There are all different types. There are many
differences, a credible difference of opinion among climate
scientists.
Senator Merkley. This is the combined work of the
Administration released by the Trump administration that you
are asking to work for, but you are rejecting their findings?
Ms. White. I think we need more of a precise explanation of
the role of the human contribution.
Senator Merkley. Mr. Wheeler, how about you? Do you reject
the findings of the Trump administration scientists?
Mr. Wheeler. No, I do not reject it, Senator. I believe,
though, the report issued on Friday was put out for notice and
comment. I would not want to prejudge anything. I agree with
you that the red bar is much higher than the other two.
Senator Merkley. Does that generally reflect your
understanding of the impact of human activity versus solar or
volcanic activity?
Mr. Wheeler. Looking at this chart, it appears that human
causes is much greater. Again, I don't want to go too much into
the report since it is open for notice and comment at this
point.
Senator Merkley. Does that generally reflect your
viewpoint, or is this radically different than your viewpoint?
Mr. Wheeler. I would have to look at the information.
Senator Merkley. I know but I am asking about your
viewpoint. Do you believe human activity is driving the
temperature increases on the planet?
Mr. Wheeler. I believe man has an impact on the climate,
but what is not completely understood is what the impact is.
Senator Merkley. You don't accept, if you will, the general
finding of the Trump administration scientists that it is
dramatically more the impact of human activity than solar or
volcanic activity? You are not sure of that?
Mr. Wheeler. I have not read the report yet. Since it is
open for notice and comment at this point, I don't think I
should comment.
Senator Merkley. No, there are many other sources for this
information.
Mr. Wheeler, you have been working as a lobbyist for a
company, for a private company?
Mr. Wheeler. A number of different companies.
Senator Merkley. Yes, sir, but significant activity on
behalf of the coal industry. You were shown the secret 3-page
plan on how to destroy the EPA when you were lobbying for them.
When candidate Trump said he was going to drain the swamp,
did he mean to take the lobbyists and put them in charge of
policy? Is that what he meant by ``drain the swamp''?
Mr. Wheeler. First of all, I believe there are a number of
lobbyists that worked in the Obama administration.
Senator Merkley. I am not asking about the Obama
administration; I am asking about candidate Trump's argument
that he is going to ``drain the swamp'' and get rid of the
powerful special interests and the lobbyists running things. Is
that what you think he meant by that? Or what did he mean by
that?
Mr. Wheeler. I am not sure what he meant by that.
Senator Merkley. My time is up but I do think there is
quite a contrast in that. I do think when the Trump
administration's scientists put out this information, boy, it
bears paying attention to it.
Ms. White, you said you are going to look to what the
scientists say. This is what they say, and yet you reject it. I
don't see how that makes you possibly qualified to serve in
this capacity.
Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Merkley.
I would point out for the record, a story dated November 2,
2017, an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal under the headline, A
Deceptive New Report on Climate. This is by Dr. Steven E.
Koonin who had served as the Under Secretary of Energy for
Science in the Obama administration.
He goes on in his op-ed to report, ``The world's response
to climate changing under natural and human influences is best
founded upon a complete portrayal of the science. The U.S.
Government's Climate Science Special Report does not provide
that foundation.'' Instead, he goes on to say, ``It reinforces
alarm with incomplete information and highlights the need for
more rigorous review of climate assessments.''
I would ask unanimous consent that this be entered in the
record. Without objection, it is done so.
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Senator Barrasso. Senator Capito.
Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to thank both our witnesses today.
Ms. White, I will start with you. Let me start by
apologizing in not getting here earlier. I was over on Commerce
where we were having another hearing, so I did not get to hear
your statement and the questions. If this has been asked
before, I apologize.
We have had, over the last several years, particularly
during the last Administration, a real battle between State
regulators and the EPA and the policies emanating from the
White House with a lot of our State regulators suing in court,
adding comments to potential court decisions in opposition to
the direction the Administration was going, some successful,
some not. Then somewhere the State regulators would be invited
in to help craft a decision and then basically being ignored
when they would weigh in.
Where do you see the cooperation between the State and what
your office of Environmental Quality would do and how you might
be able to bridge some of those bridges that have been burned
over the last several years?
Ms. White. As I understand it, CEQ has been used as an
entity that can convene local agencies, State agencies, and
Federal agencies and try to coordinate and resolve conflict. I
actually think that process, which CEQ has used, I don't know
whether it has ever been done on a State-Federal authority
issue, but I think there has been some meaningful use of the
convening story of CEQ.
On the other hand, we are still at the beginning of this
Administration, challenging decisions from the last
Administration which some construe as maybe assisting the
agency in reforming the agenda.
Senator Capito. Thank you.
Mr. Wheeler, I was very pleased to see that the EPA
announced their hearings on the Clean Power Plan. I think one
of the first, if not the first, meeting is to be convened in
Charleston, West Virginia, my hometown and obviously in the
heart of coal country in the State of West Virginia and that
region.
For the last years, from this dais, I have asked that our
voices be heard at the EPA. The last time they went around the
country, the closest we could get them was Pittsburgh, but they
could go to San Francisco, Boston, Chicago, and cities that
might not be quite so friendly or have the same voice.
I would like to ask you, in the position you would assume
at EPA, to keep all voices at the table. I would not advocate
that you only come to coal country to talk about coal. You have
to go everywhere.
I would say to Administrator Pruitt, thank you for that,
for being willing to come and listen. It is going to be a
rollicking hearing, I can tell you that. I would like to know
your perspective on that because I know you have done some work
in the coal area and how you perceive that.
Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Senator.
As you know, my family is from West Virginia. I go there
every year, so if you would like me to come to West Virginia, I
will be there next June, the third weekend in June, I know for
sure.
I think it is important for EPA to get out and meet with
the people, particularly those they are regulating. I am glad
one of the first meetings will be in Charleston, West Virginia.
I think it is a sign that Administrator Pruitt means what he
says when he wants to work with the States and the communities.
I look forward to working with him going forward.
Thank you.
Senator Capito. Thank you.
Let me ask you this. I know you are familiar with the
bureaucracies. I noticed in your statement, in terms of EPA,
that you did take some time to appreciate the long term service
of many people in EPA and many of the hard workers. I think we
have a tendency to think all the bureaucrats are just running
amok.
How do you see that in terms of EPA, in terms of the power
more bureaucratic people have over the political winds that
change every 8 years, or how do you bridge that gap?
Mr. Wheeler. I do think the career employees at the agency
are very dedicated. I think you go to work at the EPA because
you are concerned about the environment. I applaud them for
their work and what they have done.
My criticisms in the past have been directed at some of the
political people at the agency and not the career people. I am
looking forward to returning to the agency to work with them
again.
Senator Capito. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Capito.
Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. Mr. Wheeler, I spent a little time in the
Boy Scouts, raised a couple of boys, as the Chairman said here,
who became Eagles and learned a lot from it. When I was a Scout
growing up in Virginia, we would go on camping trips. We took
our own sons and their Scout troop on any number of those over
the years.
I have here the Scout laws. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal,
helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful,
thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. I don't know you well
enough to know if you measure up on all of those. I would like
to think I do and my colleagues and I do. I hope we do, but it
is a high standard to set.
One of the things we always tried to teach our Scouts was
that we had an obligation to this planet. It was given to us by
God. We are its stewards, and we have a moral obligation to
turn it over from one generation to the next in as good shape
or maybe better shape. How do you feel about that?
Mr. Wheeler. I completely agree with you, sir. I was saying
them, while you were saying them, quietly to myself. I try to
live up to those ideals of scouting every day of my life. I
agree with you that we have a responsibility in the stewardship
of the planet to leave it in better shape than we found it for
our children, grandchildren, and nephews.
Senator Carper. It is possible to actually make the
actually make the air and water cleaner, preserve our natural
resources, and do so in a way that does not diminish jobs or
employment but actually enhances it. You know how much I loved
George Voinovich and his bride. We were Governors together and
Senators here for many years.
Now the Republican banner on the Diesel Emissions Reduction
Act is carried by Senator Inhofe. I will never forget the day
George Voinovich came to me and said, we have all these diesel
emissions. The great thing about diesel engines is they last a
long time; the bad thing is they last a long time, and the
older ones are terribly polluting.
We can actually use American technology to clean up the
emissions and do so in a cost effective way and get a lot of
partners involved and not only create jobs but tens of
thousands of jobs. We can also use American technology and
export the technology across the world. I hold that out as an
example of the way we ought to work and work together for the
common good.
I want to talk with Mr. Wheeler about EPA employees
breaking the law. Ms. White served on the Texas Commission on
Environmental Quality. The commission staff was told to under-
report the levels of radiation in drinking water, violating the
EPA's rules. She later defended these actions telling the
reporter, ``We did not believe the science of health effects
justified EPA setting the standard where they did.''
I would just ask, Mr. Wheeler, do you agree it is
appropriate or inappropriate to direct staff to violate Federal
law, regulations, or reporting requirements?
Mr. Wheeler. I am not sure where the quote came from and
what Ms. White would say about that quote today. I do not think
it is appropriate to direct staff to ignore laws, no.
Senator Carper. In our personal meeting, you noted that you
were once an EPA career official.
Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
Senator Carper. During your time there, you found the EPA
career staff are dedicated employees who want to make a
difference with their lives on behalf of other people on the
planet on which we live. In materials you submitted for the
record, you also stated, ``If I am confirmed, I hope to earn
their respect.''
My question is, do you agree that censoring, disregarding,
or excluding career staff views would actually earn their
respect? Would you describe some steps you plan to take, if you
are confirmed, to improve the manner in which EPA career staff
is respected in a way that shows them respect?
Mr. Wheeler. I will turn to the career staff and ask their
advice and listen to them. I think I have to best answer that
question by saying they will see it in my daily actions, how I
interact with them, and how I go forward with them.
Senator Carper. I have one last one, if I can, Ms. White.
In congressional testimony and articles, you have referred
to EPA employees as ``Federal mandarins brandishing their
scientific credentials''--as ``Federal mandarins brandishing
their scientific credentials.'' Those words suggest you may not
agree with Mr. Wheeler that EPA career staff are dedicated
employees who want to make a difference in the environment.
I always try to treat other people the way I want to be
treated. What would cause you to describe people like Andy
Wheeler, when he was working at the EPA, as a Federal mandarin
brandishing scientific credentials? What would make you talk
that way about him?
Ms. White. A rather exaggerated way to reflect the anger
that I see in people and the amount of power that Federal
employees have garnered as opposed to all of you, our Congress,
that is where that came from.
Senator Carper. I am sorry, my time has expired. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I have one last unanimous consent request to
submit additional materials for the record pertaining to Ms.
White's views on public health and the environment that would
include a letter from 56 members of the House, parties to the
nomination and a letter signed by many environmental
organizations who also oppose her nomination. I ask unanimous
consent.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
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Senator Barrasso. Also, Carol Baker with the Texas Water
Foundation, President and CEO, stated this: ``Ms. White is a
committed public servant, has been a wonderful advocate on
behalf of water issues for decades in her role as Chair of the
Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, was a champion on
natural resource issues and admired for her commitment and
tenacity. She is very collaborative and always interested in
listening to all the details on the issues and a great team
leader. I highly recommend and support this very qualified
candidate, Kathleen Hartnett White.''
I ask unanimous consent that we introduce that.
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Senator Barrasso. Let us turn to Senator Inhofe.
It seemed you were trying to answer something. If it is all
right with Senator Inhofe, I would like to give you a chance to
respond.
Ms. White. Yes, I was. I understood his question was about
an issue of naturally occurring radionuclides in soil and as
characterized, that somehow, I or another CEQ employee was
telling field staff don't show the extent of the problem; just
mute it back a little bit. Evidently EPA was claiming that.
This is one of these technical issues, about technical
issues and interpretative guidance with EPA. I would never,
ever tell staff to under-report health hazards. That is the
only statement I wanted to make. Health hazards like this need
to be addressed ASAP.
Senator Barrasso. Senator Inhofe.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Let me make one comment. Since all they want to talk about
on the other side is global warming, it is kind of interesting.
Someone pretty smart on the other side, back when they were
talking, and their whole concept was the world is coming to an
end, and it is due to anthropogenic gases. Do you remember
that, Mr. Wheeler?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir.
Senator Inhofe. We heard it over and over again, but it did
not sell. The people did not buy it, so they changed it and
started using climate change. Climates always change. In fact,
we voted unanimously that everyone agrees that climate has
always and always will change. In all the historical,
scientific, and scriptural evidence, that is a fact.
That gives the opportunity to say anyone who does not
believe the world is coming to an end because of global warming
does not believe that climate changes. Very clever. I don't
have any reason for saying that but somebody has to say it.
Besides that, when they talk about all the scientific
evidence, Richard Lindzen is a good example. Richard Lindzen
with MIT is recognized as one of the top scientists in the
country on this and other subjects.
I don't have the whole quote written down, but I think I
have it memorized. He said, ``Regulating carbon is a
bureaucrat's dream. If you regulate carbon, you regulate
life.'' Have you ever heard that quote, Mr. Wheeler?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir, I have heard you say that many
times.
Senator Inhofe. I would also like to have you address one
other thing. There is this idea out there that somehow in
taking care of your own land, for example, that the Government
needs to do it for you.
You might recall that during the past Administration--I
don't remember his name but I had asked him to come out and
talk to our farmers in Oklahoma to determine whether or not he
really thinks we need to have them looking after the
environment on their own property. They came back with a
report. This came from several places in Oklahoma that they had
never seen such enthusiastic support by the owners of the land
that was far greater than anything they had ever heard from the
bureaucracy. Do you remember that?
Mr. Wheeler. I do, sir, yes.
Senator Inhofe. I think that is really worth talking about.
I know we are kind of coming to a close, but the other side
of the dais has been focusing on your writings, Ms. White, as a
private citizen and have been furthering the myth that you have
helped polluters get away from polluting while at the Texas
Commission CEQ.
I want to show them that while you were at the Texas
Commission CEQ, the Texas air quality dramatically improved.
What role did you play in that result?
Ms. White. As the chairman, it all circled around the State
implementation plan that states, those who have non-attainment
areas must submit to EPA. Like a lot of Government documents,
it is not 10 pages; it is six volumes and thousands of pages.
I was the chairman, so that was the most important issue in
the entire agency. I think you could generally say I was
directing the team that was developing the full State
implementation plan which is, like I said, a huge document with
reams of things people might call science or technical
analysis, control measures and all kinds of things.
It was through really implementing that plan that the
dramatic reduction, not just in ozone which is not a directly
emitted pollutant, but also other pollutants that as a result
of the measures addressing ozone, we had beneficial impact on
other pollutants.
Senator Inhofe. The bottom line is, in looking at this, you
have been very successful in accomplishing those things for the
Texas CEQ.
Ms. White. Yes.
Senator Inhofe. Is there any reason you believe you would
not be equally successful in performing some of those results?
Ms. White. No. That is why I would be so delighted were I
nominated to take on this job at CEQ within a different
framework than a regulatory agency but lots of the same issues.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Ms. White.
Senator Barrasso. Senator Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. Mr. Wheeler, there has been a recent
request by Secretary Perry to the Federal Energy Regulatory
Commission to provide certain regulatory favors, to provide
regulatory priority to, among other things, coal plants.
To your knowledge, was either Mr. Murray or Murray Energy
involved in making a recommendation of any kind to Secretary
Perry on that subject? Were you personally involved in any way
in any activities that led up to Secretary Perry's request to
the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission?
Mr. Wheeler. Certainly, Murray Energy has been supportive
of that effort. I did attend a meeting with Murray Energy at
the Department of Energy where this was discussed months ago,
but I de-registered in August. I have not been involved in
anything over the last few months on this issue. This issue has
been front and center.
Senator Whitehouse. Was your participation in the
preparation for the Perry request, if we call it that, is that
a fair enough description? Do you know what I am talking about
if I say the Perry request?
Mr. Wheeler. I think I know what you mean. I did not work
on putting that together. As I said, I was in a meeting at the
Department of Energy.
Senator Whitehouse. Was that the limit of your
participation in that, to attend one meeting at the Department
of Energy?
Mr. Wheeler. I also believe I attended one Hill meeting on
that as well.
Senator Whitehouse. One meeting on the Hill, one meeting at
the Department of Energy, and nothing further, no memos that
you authored, no paper trail, nothing else?
Mr. Wheeler. No, sir.
Senator Whitehouse. Ms. Hartnett White, I went down to
Texas. I go to a lot of States to try to figure out what is
going on there in terms of climate change. I had a scientific
panel with scientists from the University of Texas at Austin;
from Texas Tech, and Katherine Hayhoe, who I am still somewhat
in touch with, who is by the way, not pagan, she is
evangelical; Texas A&M, the Aggies, were present; and Rice
University.
They said that Texas was in harm's way from climate change
on a whole variety of fronts, including sea level rise along
the coastline and so forth. They were pretty much in unanimous
agreement with each other about what was going on.
They also said they were unaware of any support in their
universities for some counter-science in which this isn't
really happening.
Have you been in touch with any of those universities about
climate change and about what it means for Texas? Is there any
record of your contact with those universities?
Ms. White. I don't know whether there would be any records,
but over the years, attending a conference or a panel or that
sort of thing.
Senator Whitehouse. Do you know how much of the excess heat
that has been captured by greenhouse gas emissions has been
absorbed by the oceans, roughly, say to the nearest 10 percent?
Ms. White. I do not have numbers like that.
Senator Whitehouse. Even to the nearest 10 percent? Do you
know if it is more than 50 percent or less than 50 percent?
Ms. White. I am sorry, but could you ask the question one
more time?
Senator Whitehouse. Of the additional heat that has been
captured in the atmosphere as a result of greenhouse gas
emissions, do you know how much of that excess has been
captured in the ocean? Is it more or less than 50 percent? Do
you even know that?
Ms. White. No.
Senator Whitehouse. No. OK.
Ms. White. But I believe there are differences of opinions
on that, but there is not one right answer.
Senator Whitehouse. Really? Do you think there is actual
serious difference of opinion whether it is below 50 percent?
Ms. White. Unless I am mistaken, yes.
Senator Whitehouse. You think there is serious difference
of opinions as to how much of that has been captured by the
ocean? You think there is serious scientific opinion that it is
below 50 percent?
Ms. White. Yes, unless I am mistaken. Yes.
Senator Whitehouse. OK, wow. Do you think if the ocean
warms, it expands? Does the law of thermal expansion apply to
sea water?
Ms. White. Again, I do not have any kind of expertise or
even much layman study of the ocean dynamics and climate change
issues.
Senator Whitehouse. Just enough to know that you think
there is not science that establishes clearly how much of the
heat has been taken up by the oceans? You knew that, right? You
said you knew that.
My time has expired. I am sorry. I hear the gavel knocking.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse.
Senator Sullivan.
Senator Carper. Could I ask for one unanimous consent
before Senator Sullivan?
Senator Barrasso. Yes.
Senator Carper. I would submit for the record statements
Ms. White made in February of this year on a panel hosted by
the CO2 Coalition, an organization that promotes misinformation
about climate change.
The Coalition claims ``Climate policies deprive mankind of
the benefits of carbon dioxide.'' Ms. White stated the CO2
Coalition is ``a very, very meaningful source.''
Thanks very much.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection, so ordered.
[The referenced information follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. Brandy Marty Marquez, a commissioner of
the Public Utility Commission of Texas, has written in support
of Ms. White's nomination. Ms. Marquez has said ``Ms. White
brings a wealth of environmental regulatory experience and her
record reflects her commitment to genuine environmental
protection.''
I ask unanimous consent as well that this be entered in the
record. Without objection, so ordered.
[The referenced information follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. Senator Sullivan.
Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate the witnesses being here and your willingness
to serve.
Mr. Wheeler, I appreciated your highlighting some of
Administrator Pruitt's testimony during his confirmation
hearing about we are a nation of laws, the rule of law, and
cooperative federalism. I think those are all very important
issues. I want to kind of drill down on those a bit today.
I think it is also important to recognize. Sometimes you do
not always get it from this Committee, but we all are very
focused on clean water and clean air. My State of Alaska and my
hometown of Anchorage has some of the cleanest water and gets
awards. My State has the most pristine, beautiful, and
incredible environment probably in the world. We care about it
deeply.
We also care about the rule of law. To be perfectly blunt,
I think the last Administrator in the previous Administration
was not that concerned about the rule of law. Let me give you a
quote from the previous Administration.
A senior official once stated of a major EPA rule on the
eve of a big Supreme Court case that when asked whether you
think you are going to win or lose in the Supreme Court on this
rule they promulgated, this individual said, it didn't matter
if it was unlawful because the rule was finalized 3 years ago,
and ``most of the covered parties are already in compliance and
investments have been made.''
Does that sound like the attitude of somebody or an agency
that cares about the rule of law?
Mr. Wheeler. No, it does not, sir.
Senator Sullivan. That was Gina McCarthy. That was one of
numerous, numerous occasions where she and her team ignored the
rule of law. In one of her hearings, I called her running a
lawless agency because they did this all the time.
The Clean Power Plan gets a lot of play in the press. Do
you have any idea why the U.S. Supreme Court put a stay on the
Clean Power Plan, the first time in U.S. Supreme Court history
that they had done that to a rule from a Federal agency that
had not been looked at by a lower court? Do you have any sense
of why the Supreme Court did that?
Mr. Wheeler. It is my understanding the Supreme Court, as
you said it was the first time for an environmental statute,
but the only time they would issue a stay like that would be if
they thought the proponents would prevail on the arguments.
Senator Sullivan. I think the Supreme Court saw it as a
quote from the EPA Administrator who said, look, we don't care.
Investments have been made. These poor idiot Americans who
complied with it, too bad. I think the Supreme Court was
saying, that is not the rule of law.
I need from you a commitment that you won't do that,
whether you like a policy or not. If the Congress of the United
States does not give you, as the Federal agency, the authority
to undertake some kind of action, will you commit to this
Committee that you won't undertake that kind of action?
Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely, sir.
Senator Sullivan. Do you need statutory authority to
undertake rules and regulations that derive from this body?
Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely. From my time working at EPA and my
time working here, I understand where the laws are made and
whose job it is to implement them. It is not the duty of the
EPA to write the laws.
Senator Sullivan. OK. We would hope you and Administrator
Pruitt would never make a statement such as that by Gina
McCarthy which showed complete disrespect for the rule of law
and really for the Congress, in my view. Can I get your
commitment on that?
Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely, sir, yes.
Senator Sullivan. Let me ask about another issue. You and I
have talked about this. It relates to an issue back in my State
that we worked on in a bipartisan way on this Committee in the
last Congress. Chairman Inhofe, Senator Boxer, I and others
worked on a challenge we have with regard to water and sewer
infrastructure.
There was a lot of talk about aging infrastructure during
the Flint, Michigan, crisis. I was trying to raise the fact
that there are communities in America which have no
infrastructure, not just aging infrastructure.
In my State, Alaska has over 30 communities where people do
not have water and sewer, where they do not have flushing
toilets. These are American citizens. We worked in a bipartisan
way to address that.
I was very disappointed to see the Trump administration did
not fund that because no American citizen should live in a
community where you do not have a flushing toilet. We have what
is called honey buckets where you have to take raw sewage out
to a lagoon. We have rates of diseases in some of these
communities that are higher, like in third world countries.
This is a program that passed the Congress on a bipartisan
basis as part of the WIIN Act. Can get your commitment, if we
get the appropriate funding, that the EPA, at the highest
levels, will be committed 110 percent to addressing what is
really a travesty? It is not just in Alaska; there are a few
other States that have this problem, but this problem mostly
resides in my State. We talked about it when you and I met. Can
I get your commitment on that as well?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir. I will even go as far as to say 120
percent.
Senator Sullivan. Great. I appreciate that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Sullivan.
Senator Duckworth.
Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Chairman Barrasso.
Ms. Hartnett White, thank you for coming to my office for
our meeting. I appreciate the time.
During our meeting, you stated you do not have ties to the
oil industry. It has been a long time for the renewable fuel
standards and other environmental programs which I, and many of
my constituents, support.
In fact, when I did a bit more research, I found that you
reportedly actually own several oil leases, one of which is
leased to CVR Refining. CVR Refining is owned by Carl Icahn who
recently resigned from his role as advisor to President Trump
amid very well publicized concerns that he used his position in
the Administration to influence a proposal to change the point
of obligation under the RFS. This change would benefit Mr.
Icahn's own financial interests. I have called on the FBI to
investigate this very clear violation of conflict of interest
laws.
Let me ask, have you ever spoken to Carl Icahn regarding
the RFS?
Ms. White. No, I have not.
Senator Duckworth. Do you intend to sell any of your
current leases, specifically the one leased to Carl Icahn's CVR
Refining?
Ms. White. I already assigned those mineral interests by
gift to my nephew. I do not own any mineral interests. My
great-grandfather, in several counties in Texas, had some
modest royalty interests.
Senator Duckworth. But you gained financially from leasing
these interests to Mr. Icahn? You made money off it, right? You
got a return by leasing the oil leases to CVR Refining?
Ms. White. Like I said, these are de minimis royalty
payments for royalties in some agricultural counties in Kansas
that I do not own anymore. My nephew does.
Senator Duckworth. When did that happen?
Ms. White. I don't know; about 6 months ago or so.
Senator Duckworth. When it became clear that you wanted
this job?
Ms. White. Yes.
Senator Duckworth. You made money, but you told me you did
not have any history.
Ms. White. I don't own them.
Senator Duckworth. Fairly recently.
Ms. White. They are like oil leases where some months you
get $30.
Senator Duckworth. Thirty dollars is a lot of money to some
families.
Ms. White. I am sure it is.
Senator Duckworth. During our meeting, in countless
articles and talks you have given over the years, you
repeatedly claim that ethanol reduces grain supply and
increases the cost of food.
As someone who relied on food stamps as a child and who
represents thousands of farmers in my home State, I am deeply
invested in ensuring access, affordability, and quality food is
available to everyone in the country and around the world.
Yes or no, are you aware that today ethanol production has
increased to at least 15 billion gallons?
Ms. White. I have.
Senator Duckworth. And that the price of corn is lower than
it was when the RFS was adopted and that food prices are
actually in the longest decline since the 2009 recession?
Ms. White. I very recently have had access, thanks to
Senator Fischer; because of that, have had lots of information
on that. I can say God bless productive U.S. agriculture; there
is a lot of corn supply.
Senator Duckworth. Since RFS has been installed, do you
agree, yes or no, that even since then, food prices are not
higher and that what you have said, in fact, has turned out to
not be true, that food prices would be higher because of
implementation of the RFS?
Ms. White. If I understand your question, yes, you are
right.
Senator Duckworth. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask
unanimous consent to submit for the record, materials relating
to Ms. White's views that the Renewal Fuel Standard is
unethical and should be repealed.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
[The referenced information is presented earlier in this
hearing document.]
Senator Duckworth. Thank you.
I would also like to submit for the record a World Bank
report that attributes changes in the price of food to the
price of oil, not the RFS.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
[The referenced information was not received at time of
print.]
Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In 2014, Ms. White, you wrote, ``Using a vitally needed
global food grain such as corn for the transportation fuel
known as ethanol literally takes food from the mouths of hungry
millions.'' You reiterated this claim in your meeting with me.
Can you give me an example of a case where food was
literally taken from the mouths of millions and diverted to
ethanol production?
Ms. White. If you mean it literally.
Senator Duckworth. You said literally. That was your choice
of words.
Ms. White. Then I was just wrong. I was searching for the
word figuratively.
Senator Duckworth. We agree that you were wrong on RFS. You
actually wrote this, so I would assume you proofread your
documents before they were published.
Beyond bashing the RFS inaccurately, can you describe any
work you have done individually to advocate for ending hunger
because you seem to be very concerned about hunger and the RFS'
potential effect on world hunger? What have you done to
advocate for ending hunger?
Ms. White. I have contributed donations. A lot of my work,
I find, is really about human welfare.
Senator Duckworth. Can you give me a concrete example of
how you have worked to end hunger?
Ms. White. I don't have a concrete example.
Senator Duckworth. So this was a nonsense thing to say
essentially? Over the years, you have made many outrageous
statements that you are clearly trying to walk away from today.
One thing is clear, you would not be the impartial counselor we
need in this Administration and we would expect from our civil
servants.
I also would like to take my remaining time to clarify.
Senator Barrasso. You have no remaining time.
Senator Duckworth. I am so sorry. May I ask one final
question?
Senator Barrasso. Please go ahead.
Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You are very
indulgent.
Can you clarify your answer to Senator Fischer? It sounded
like you would not commit to following the law by ensuring the
RFS goes to 2022 and that there are biofuel volumes. Of course,
there are biofuel volume requirements beyond that date. Is that
correct?
Ms. White. I don't think that is quite correct.
Senator Duckworth. So you are saying that you are committed
to following the law to ensure the RFS goes through 2022? What
I thought you said was that if the President wanted to renege
on those, he could.
Ms. White. No, I didn't.
Senator Duckworth. Will you commit to opposing any attempts
of the Administration to not adhere to the RFS through 2022?
Ms. White. As I said, I would uphold the spirit and the
letter of the law and that CEQ has no direct regulatory
authority or even opinion that I think would carry any kind of
legal weight.
Senator Duckworth. Again, it is very simple. Yes or no, do
you commit to ensuring that the RFS goes through 2022 by
resisting, even by something as simple as publicly stating that
you would oppose the Trump administration should they choose to
try to go against the letter or the spirit of the law?
Ms. White. I will repeat again that all law, not just the
law that supports the Renewable Fuel Standard. I would uphold
all law, the letter and the spirit.
Senator Duckworth. I am going to hold you to that. Thank
you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You have been very generous.
Senator Barrasso. Senator Carper, closing thoughts?
Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, I have one last unanimous
request.
Before I do that, Mr. Wheeler, I don't know if you were
with me and maybe George Voinovich in a meeting we held in my
office, 513 Hart, maybe 10 or 12 years ago. We met with a
number of utility CEOs from all over the country.
They had come to meet with us to talk about emissions from
power plants. Our focus was sulfur dioxide emissions, nitrous
oxide, mercury, and CO2. We talked about an hour.
A fellow from a utility I think from the southern part of
the country, sort of a curmudgeon of an old guy, at the end of
the meeting, he said, Senator, here is what you need to do. You
need to tell us what the rules are going to be, give us a
reasonable amount of time, give us some flexibility, and get
out of the way. That is what he said.
I thought it was pretty good advice, and that is what we
tried to follow when President Bush proposed Clear Skies. Lamar
Alexander and I proposed a counter-response, Really Clear
Skies. We got some pretty good advice that day.
There have been some comments here today about the Clean
Power Plan. My recollection is the last Administration took
comments for not just a couple weeks or a couple of months but
for the better part of half a year, more than half a year.
They met with over 400 stakeholders from sea to shining
sea, received and tried to respond, and I think they said they
did respond to over 1 million comments. Eighty-seven percent of
the comments they had on the proposal was actually supportive.
They reviewed more than 1,200 scientific reports.
When I hear that, I think of that meeting we had with those
utility CEOs where they said, tell us what the rules are going
to be, give us a reasonable amount of time, some flexibility,
and get out of the way.
We will see how it shakes out in the end. I did not want to
let it go by without saying, I believe the folks who are
actually doing the outreach try to do so in a thoughtful way
and to try to respond to comments they heard.
I want to thank you all for being here. I don't know if it
has been a pleasure for you, but it has been an informative
hearing. We are grateful you are here.
I want to say what is this young man's name over your left
shoulder? Luke, the force is with you. I want to say how old
are you, Luke?
Mr. Luke Wheeler. Ten.
Senator Carper. I would never have brought my sons in here
when they were 10. I am impressed with the way you have handled
yourself today. When Mr. Wheeler was speaking, a couple of
times I was watching you. I could barely see your lips moving
when he spoke, from the mouth of babes.
I have a unanimous consent request to submit materials for
the record about the drinking water radiation matters and Ms.
White's involvement in those, if I could. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection, so ordered.
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Senator Barrasso. I would also like to submit for the
record a number of letters supporting both Ms. White and Mr.
Wheeler, including a letter of support for Mr. Wheeler from the
United Mine Workers of America. Without objection, so ordered.
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Senator Barrasso. Members may submit other questions and
follow up written questions for the record. They can do that by
Monday, November 13, at noon. The nominees will please respond
to those questions by Monday, November 20, at noon.
I want to thank the nominees and congratulate you both on
your nomination.
With that, this hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:39 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
[Additional material submitted for the record follows:]
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