    [Senate Hearing 115-120]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 115-120

     HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE TO BE MEMBER OF
     THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY AND ANDREW WHEELER TO BE DEPUTY
              ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                         ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   ----------

                                NOVEMBER 8, 2017

                                   ----------

      Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works

     [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

             Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov

     HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE TO BE MEMBER OF
     THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY AND ANDREW WHEELER TO BE DEPUTY
              ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

                                                            S. Hrg. 115-120

     HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE TO BE MEMBER OF
     THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY AND ANDREW WHEELER TO BE DEPUTY
              ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                         ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                NOVEMBER 8, 2017

                                   __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works

     [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

             Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov

                                  _________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

     27-600 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2017
    ____________________________________________________________________
     For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office,
    Internet:bookstore.gpo.gov. Phone:toll free (866)512-1800;DC area (202)512-1800
      Fax:(202) 512-2104 Mail:Stop IDCC,Washington,DC 20402-001

                   COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                         ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
                                 FIRST SESSION

                        JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming, Chairman
    JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma            THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware
    SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia  BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland
    JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas               BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
    ROGER WICKER, Mississippi            SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
    DEB FISCHER, Nebraska                JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon
    JERRY MORAN, Kansas                  KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, New York
    MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota            CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
    JONI ERNST, Iowa                     EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
    DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska                 TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
    RICHARD SHELBY, Alabama              KAMALA HARRIS, California

                  Richard M. Russell, Majority Staff Director
                   Gabrielle Batkin, Minority Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                NOVEMBER 8, 2017
                               OPENING STATEMENTS

    Barrasso, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Wyoming......     1
    Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware..     3
    Cornyn, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Texas, prepared
      statement......................................................     6

                                   WITNESSES

    Stivers, Hon. Steve, U.S. Representative from the State of Ohio..     8
    White, Kathleen Hartnett, Director, Texas Public Policy
      Foundation.....................................................     9
        Prepared statement...........................................    12
        Responses to additional questions from Senator Carper........    17
        Response to an additional question from Senator Booker.......    35
        Responses to additional questions from Senator Gillibrand....    35
        Response to an additional question from Senator Inhofe.......    36
        Responses to additional questions from:
            Senator Merkley..........................................    37
            Senator Sanders..........................................    41
            Senator Whitehouse.......................................    57
    Wheeler, Andrew, Principal, Faegre Baker Daniels Consulting......    62
        Prepared statement...........................................    64
        Responses to additional questions from Senator Carper........    67
        Response to an additional question from:
            Senator Gillibrand.......................................    82
            Senator Inhofe...........................................    82
        Responses to additional questions from:
            Senator Merkley..........................................    82
            Senator Sanders..........................................    84
            Senator Sullivan.........................................    93
            Senator Whitehouse.......................................    94

                              ADDITIONAL MATERIAL

    Kathleen Hartnett White, Distinguished Senior Fellow-in-Residence
      & Director, Armstrong Center for Energy & the Environment,
      www.texaspolicy.com, sourced November 7, 2017..................   600
    Board of Directors, www.texaspolicy.com, sourced November 7, 2017   602
    Information on the Texas Public Policy Foundation from
      www.sourcewatch.org, sourced November 7, 2017..................   605
    Green Energy Policies May Haunt Democrats This Fall, The Patriot
      Post, July 2, 2016.............................................   626
    Trump pick for top environmental post once wrote Texas would be
      `better off' as an independent republic, www.cnn.com, October
      26, 2017.......................................................   628
    Clean Air Act....................................................   632

     HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE TO BE MEMBER OF
     THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY AND ANDREW WHEELER TO BE DEPUTY
              ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 2017

                                           U.S. Senate,
                     Committee on Environment and Public Works,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m. in
    room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John Barrasso
    (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
        Present: Senators Barrasso, Carper, Inhofe, Capito,
    Boozman, Wicker, Fischer, Rounds, Ernst, Sullivan, Cardin,
    Whitehouse, Merkley, Gillibrand, Booker, Markey, Duckworth, and
    Harris.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
                 U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING

        Senator Barrasso. Good morning. I call this hearing to
    order.
        Today we will consider the nominations of Kathleen Hartnett
    White to be a member of the Council of Environmental Quality--
    the CEQ, and Andrew Wheeler to be Deputy Administrator of the
    Environmental Protection Agency.
        Before I speak about the nominees, I want to reiterate
    remarks that I made last week on the Senate floor that are
    applicable to today's hearing. All year long, Democrats have
    been putting up roadblocks to President Trump's nominations.
    Democrats have been forcing 30 hours of debate on even some of
    the most bipartisan of President Trump's nominees. But then
    those Democrats have not been showing up to use the time for
    the debate, the 30 hours.
        In the past, both sides would agree to waive the time
    requirements and to move on to other Senate business. But today
    many Democrats insist on cloture votes and then insist that we
    waste hour after hour on the Senate floor, even when there is
    no one on the floor to debate the nominees that are in front of
    us.
        It is time to end this pointless spectacle. We have nearly
    100 nominees for important jobs in the Administration on the
    Executive Calendar waiting a vote on the Senate floor. The
    Environment and Public Works Committee has reported 11 nominees
    to the full Senate for approval, only two of whom have received
    votes on the Senate floor so far.
        I am pleased that we will be able to vote on another this
    week, but unfortunately, it required cloture and another 30
    hours of debate time.
        As of last Friday, there have been 51 cloture votes on
    President Trump's nominees. In comparison, the previous four
    Administrations had only a total of seven cloture votes on
    their nominees at this point in their administrations. That
    would be Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and both Presidents Bush.
        Democrats are not using the Senate rules for debate or
    deliberation, only for delay. It is therefore time to change
    the rules and go back to the process that Senator Schumer
    supported in 2013 and 2014. Today, the schedule allows us to do
    only one or two nominations in a typical week. If we go back to
    the 2014 Schumer standard, we could clear multiple nominations
    in a day.
        Now I would like to turn to today's nominees.
        President Trump has nominated Kathleen Hartnett White to be
    a member of the CEQ. The President intends to designate her as
    the Chair of the CEQ upon her confirmation by the Senate. CEQ
    was established pursuant to the National Environmental Policy
    Act, the implementation of which the CEQ oversees. CEQ is
    responsible for coordinating Federal environmental efforts. It
    develops and recommends national policies to the President that
    promote the improvement of environmental quality.
        James Connaughton, who is the former Chair of the CEQ under
    President George W. Bush, said this of Ms. Hartnett White. He
    said, ``She is clearly highly qualified, adept, and has a
    breadth of experience.''
        Ms. White currently serves as a distinguished senior fellow
    in residence and director of the Armstrong Center for Energy
    and Environment at the Texas Public Policy Foundation, which
    she joined in 2008. From 2001 to 2007 she served as Chairman
    and Commissioner of the Texas Commission on Environmental
    Quality.
        Ms. White has also served as a leader of the Lower Colorado
    River Authority, the Texas Water Development Board, the Texas
    Economic Development Commission, the Environmental Flow Study
    Commission, the Texas Emissions Reduction Advisory Board, the
    Texas Water Foundation, the National Cattlemen's Association,
    and the Texas Wildlife Association.
        I look forward to hearing from Ms. White how she will bring
    her breadth of experience to bear on CEQ.
        President Trump also nominated Andrew Wheeler to be Deputy
    Administrator of the EPA. The Deputy Administrator plays a
    central role in developing and implementing programs and
    activities focused on fulfilling the EPA's mission of
    protecting human health and the environment. The Deputy
    Administrator oversees Agency-wide initiatives and coordinates
    important issues with EPA's regional and program offices.
        I was heartened by the Ranking Member's positive comments
    about Mr. Wheeler and his dedication to the EPA's mission. Our
    Ranking Member has previously stated, ``The fact that we have
    worked with him, we know him, he used to work with George
    Voinovich, who is one of my closest friends and allies on the
    environment, is certainly helpful.'' He went on to say, ``And I
    think, having worked in the Agency, he actually cares about the
    environment, the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the
    planet on which we live.''
        Mr. Wheeler has spent over 25 years working in the
    environmental field, first as a career employee with the title
    of Environmental Protection Specialist at EPA for 4 years, then
    as the EPW's Clean Air Subcommittee Staff Director for 6 years;
    next as the EPW's Republican Staff Director and Chief Counsel
    for 6 years; and finally, as a consultant and lobbyist for a
    large variety of energy and environmental clients for the last
    8 years.
        We know how well qualified Mr. Wheeler is, and if
    confirmed, what a wealth of experience and expertise he will
    bring to a critically important role in protecting America's
    public health and safety.
        As I turn to Senator Carper, I would also add, like your
    two sons, Andrew is also an Eagle Scout.
        I would like to also now turn to the Ranking Member for his
    statement.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER,
                U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

        Senator Carper. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are
    grateful for this hearing and for our nominees that will be
    appearing before us today.
        John Barrasso and I are friends. I consider everybody on
    this Committee a friend. And I wasn't going to mention this,
    but I have to say this. We have an Administration, Mr.
    Chairman, that has basically said to heads of various agencies
    they don't have to respond to oversight inquiries from anybody
    except the Chairman of a committee. And you know and I know
    that usually the party that is not in the White House tends to
    be more rigorous in exercising oversight over the
    Administration. That is the way it has always worked, whether
    you have a Democrat or Republican President.
        We have asked, on our side of the aisle, some 30 letters to
    EPA asking for response. We think we are exercising our
    oversight responsibilities. We have heard now on about 10 of
    them. And if you are playing baseball, you are batting .333. In
    baseball, that is pretty good, but it is not pretty good here
    in the U.S. Senate.
        We can do better here. And as my colleagues know, when we
    had a Democratic administration, and my colleagues said they
    weren't getting the responses they needed, I would literally
    call the heads of the agencies and say, for God's sake, respond
    to Senator whoever it is. For God's sake, respond. And that is
    kind of like regular order, and we need to get back to that. We
    get good responses on our letters, and we can move people. We
    move people a lot faster, and I want to. I want to do that.
        I come from a background that, as Governor, folks I
    nominate, I expect them to be confirmed. Get a hearing; be
    confirmed. Eight years as Governor of Delaware, and we had a
    Republican House, Democratic Senate, not one was ever turned
    down to lead an administration, to lead a department, to lead
    an agency, to serve as a judge. Not one was turned down. And I
    think part of it was the way we treated and responded to
    legislators for their lawful responsibilities, obligation to do
    oversight. And we are not getting that right now.
        I had not planned to say that, but I felt compelled to do
    that, especially the part that I regard you as my friend.
        Before I turn to the nominations, I want to say I look
    forward to the day when Scott Pruitt, the head of the EPA,
    comes and testifies before us again. And my hope is that that
    day will come soon.
        Turning to today's hearing, we have two nominees before us
    who have been nominated to serve in very important capacities,
    very important capacities. The Council on Environmental Quality
    is led by the White House's top environmental official. CEQ has
    historically played a vital role in coordinating the efforts of
    all Federal agencies on cost cutting and important
    environmental issues. For example, CEQ co-chaired President
    Obama's Climate Adaptation Task Force to help communities
    strengthen their resilience to extreme weather and prepare for
    other impacts of climate change.
        CEQ leads the Office of Federal Sustainability, which
    develops policies to modernize Federal property and save money
    through increased energy efficiency and other purchasing
    requirements. CEQ also plays a key role in identifying ways to
    make sure Federal agencies work together well and in a
    coordinated fashion. And CEQ helped to get the almost
    unanimously enacted Toxic Substance Control Act, which a bunch
    of us worked on, over the finish line by coordinating with a
    wide range of stakeholders during negotiations between the
    House and the Senate and those stakeholders and the
    Administration.
        The nominee to carry on this important work must be someone
    who can build alliances, someone who can work with Congress and
    be a credible leader. Unfortunately, in my view, the nominee
    before us today, Kathleen Hartnett White, does not, in my
    opinion, meet this standard.
        In her years serving the Texas Commission on Environmental
    Quality and thereafter, Ms. White has shown a disdain for
    science, a disregard for laws and regulations already on the
    books, and a staggering disrespect for people who have views
    with which she disagrees.
        Ms. White, who has been asked to hold the top environmental
    position in the White House, has shown that she is not only a
    science denier, but actively promotes misinformation on
    climate, on ozone, on mercury, particulate matter, and other
    known health hazards that impact our air and our waterways.
    From describing the Renewable Fuel Standard as unethical, to
    comparing people who believe in climate programs to pagans, to
    saying that environmentalism will lead to mass starvation or
    other large scale calamities, her tone, her words, and her
    actions are simply unacceptable.
        Our second nominee, Andrew Wheeler, once occupied a seat on
    this side of the dais, as the Chairman has said. He is no
    stranger to the Environmental and Public Works Committee. As a
    long time staff member for the senior Senator from Oklahoma,
    Mr. Wheeler was someone with whom we didn't always agree on
    each and every policy, but he did prove to be one with whom we
    were always able to work together on policies that we did agree
    on.
        Given the polarizing nature of Scott Pruitt's EPA, as well
    as the polarizing nature of one of Mr. Wheeler's long-time
    clients, Bob Murray, of Murray Energy, I am anxious to hear
    from Mr. Wheeler about whether he can assure members of this
    Committee that his confirmation to be Deputy Administrator of
    the EPA would not be more of the same approach at the Agency.
        I would like to know if Mr. Wheeler can leave his clients
    and his conflicts of interest behind him and start over with
    the interests of the country as his No. 1 priority. I also want
    to understand whether, unlike Ms. White, Andy Wheeler can
    embrace and acknowledge accepted environmental and public
    health science.
        So thanks, Mr. Chairman. We look forward to hearing from
    all of our witnesses, and especially welcome as a Buckeye our
    lead off witness. Thank you for joining us today.
        Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Senator
    Carper.
        I would point out that, according to the EPA, to date, the
    Agency has delivered over 4,300 pages of documents to the
    minority, including civil and criminal enforcement summaries,
    travel records, communications relating to the Clean Power Plan
    Executive Order, communications relating to the oil and gas
    industry, information collection requests, and then ethics
    documents as well, including recusal forms, training records,
    and ethics pledges.
        I do agree that the Administration needs to be responsive
    to members from both sides of the aisle. I would point out that
    as an early member of this Committee a number of years ago,
    under Chairman Boxer, I was the Ranking Member of something
    called the Oversight Committee, and I had a number of things
    that I wanted to look into in terms of oversight, and the
    Chairman at that time told me the only oversight that was going
    to be done under her Committee at that time was over what she
    described as abuses of the Bush administration; nothing of that
    was happening during that current Obama administration.
        Senator Carper. Well, for good or for bad, I am not Barbara
    Boxer.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Carper. I am Tom Carper, and I want to work
    together, and I want to get things done, and I want to get
    reasonable responses to the two-thirds of requests we have
    made. I just want reasonable responses, and I don't think that
    is too much to ask for. Thank you.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Carper.
        Senator Cornyn of Texas was scheduled to be here to
    introduce Ms. Hartnett White. He had a conflict that he just
    could not avoid, so I am going to submit his statement to the
    record of support for Kathleen Hartnett White into the record
    without objection.
        Hearing none, it is submitted.
        Senator Carper. I object.
        Senator Barrasso. Too late.
        [Laughter.]
        [The prepared statement of Senator Cornyn follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Now, I would like to welcome to the
    Committee Congressman Steve Stivers from the Ohio 15th
    District. And he would be doing us the privilege of introducing
    Mr. Wheeler.
        Congressman Stivers, please proceed.

                   STATEMENT OF HON. STEVE STIVERS,
               U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE STATE OF OHIO

        Mr. Stivers. Thank you, Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member
    Carper, and Senators for the honor to be with you today. It is
    certainly my honor to introduce my good friend, Andrew Wheeler,
    who is nominated to be Deputy Administrator of the
    Environmental Protection Agency.
        Andrew comes with an unmatched amount of experience in
    energy and environment policy both in government and in the
    private sector, which will make him an excellent candidate for
    this role. Andrew and I met back in 1983 at Woodland Trails Boy
    Scout Camp, where I was Commissioner and he was the Director of
    Nature Conservation. He and I both went on to become Eagle
    Scouts, so I have great information, as you go through your due
    diligence for your confirmation process. He is indeed a Boy
    Scout.
        Even back then Andrew had clear passion for the environment
    and understood the importance of stewardship. Andrew began his
    career with the EPA, serving in the Office of Pollution
    Prevention. He then went on to the U.S. Senate, starting with
    Senator James Inhofe, then moving to the Subcommittee for Clean
    Air, Wetlands, and Nuclear Safety, and later the Committee on
    Environment and Public Works.
        In more than 10 years with these committees, he worked on
    nearly every piece of major energy and environmental related
    legislation that came through Congress. For example, in his
    time as Staff Director on this Committee, Andrew was
    responsible for managing Senate floor debate and strategy for
    legislation on topics including regulations, offshore oil
    reserves, alternative fuel vehicles, biofuels, and tar sands.
    In his role, he also gained experience developing long term
    goals and strategies, and managing a staff and budget.
        Currently, Andrew is a principal at Faegre Baker Daniels
    Consulting and co-lead of Faegre Baker Daniels' energy and
    natural resources practice. In that role, he advises clients on
    a variety of complicated legislative, regulatory, and
    operational issues.
        With his years of experience in the Senate and working with
    multiple Federal agencies, it is clear that Andrew is more than
    qualified for this position. Moreover, Andrew had a top tier
    education, earning a B.A. in English and Biology from Case
    Western Reserve University and a Juris Doctorate from
    Washington University School of Law, and an MBA from George
    Mason University School of Business.
        Andrew understands the balance we need to have between
    environmental stewardship and responsible use of our natural
    resources. I have the utmost confidence in Andrew, and I hope
    you will move forward with his confirmation as Deputy
    Administrator of the United States Environmental Protection
    Agency.
        I want to thank you for your consideration, and it is
    certainly my honor to introduce my friend, Andrew Wheeler.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Representative
    Stivers. I appreciate your being here. You are welcome to stay
    or leave, whichever works best for your schedule, but you can't
    continue to sit there.
        Mr. Stivers. Thank you. I will move away.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
        Senator Inhofe, I heard your name raised in that glowing
    recommendation.
        Senator Inhofe. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. You can
    hear from the non-Eagle Scout group now.
        I have to say there is no one in this room right now, or no
    one at this table, who knows Andrew Wheeler better and loves
    him more than I do, and I would just say that all the things
    that we did together, I think the Chairman did a good job
    talking about his background. When you stop and think about all
    the highway bills, all these bills, we did these together. We
    accomplished a lot, and a lot of that was due to Andrew
    Wheeler. They desperately need him over there. They are
    understaffed. And I just want those in this room to know that
    if you knew him as well as I would, we would have this over
    with already. Thank you.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Inhofe.
        Now I would like to welcome our nominees to the Committee
    and ask that they please come forward.
        Kathleen Hartnett White, who is the nominee to be a member
    of the Council on Environmental Quality, and Andrew Wheeler,
    who is the nominee to be the Deputy Administrator of the
    Environmental Protection Agency.
        I want to remind each of you that your full written
    testimony will be made a part of the record. I look forward to
    hearing the testimony from both of you.
        We will hear first from Ms. Hartnett White.
        Would you like to introduce any members of the family,
    folks who may be with you today? And after you do, we would ask
    that you please proceed with your testimony at your
    convenience.

                 STATEMENT OF KATHLEEN HARTNETT WHITE,
                DIRECTOR, TEXAS PUBLIC POLICY FOUNDATION

        Ms. White. Thank you very much, Chairman Barrasso. I would
    like to welcome and introduce some family members here who are
    with me.
        Senator Barrasso. Please.
        Ms. White. My niece, Melanie. I can't find you. My niece,
    Melanie, and her son, Mason O'Brien. His father, Jim O'Brien,
    is my closest relative who could not attend today, but I would
    like to list them. I am proud to say his wife, Melanie, just
    retired from the U.S. Navy. I am very, very proud of her.
        My husband, also, got incredibly sick from some mean, mean
    flu, so I am a little sparse on family. But I would like to
    raise him up. My husband is a fifth generation cattle rancher
    in Presidio County in Texas, extremely remote, and he also
    managed to be chairman of the El Paso branch of the Dallas
    Federal Reserve and President of the American Hereford
    Association. I am very proud of him. I am very thankful for him
    and his patience.
        Senator Barrasso. Please proceed. Welcome.
        Ms. White. I will now proceed with my personal statement.
        Senator Barrasso. Please do. Welcome to the Committee, and
    please proceed.
        Ms. White. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member Carper, all
    the members of the Committee, I am honored to appear before you
    today as President Trump's nominee for member, and if
    confirmed, Chairman of the White House Council on Environmental
    Quality. And I am most grateful to the President for the
    confidence he has placed in me.
        As I just mentioned, my husband, Beau, is a fifth
    generation cattle rancher. His family ranch in Presidio County
    is really a living example of the mission of the NEPA, of the
    National Environmental Policy Act, that promotes an enduring
    and productive harmony between humans and the natural world.
        I grew up in rural Kansas, and there my late parents
    instilled in me a lifelong curiosity and reverence for the
    natural world. They also told me to wisely use the natural
    resources with which our country is so blessed.
        A strong economy, I believe, is what makes environmental
    gains possible. As Chairman of the TCEQ, my record of achieving
    major improvements in air quality and water quality
    demonstrates that economic growth can go hand in hand with
    remarkable environmental enhancement. And I am proud to say
    Texas has been a leader in that. The Texas environment is
    dramatically cleaner now than it was 30 or 40 years ago, while
    the State's economy has continued to grow.
        While I was Chairman at TCEQ, Texas experienced nation
    leading growth in population, in gross State product, and in
    jobs, while dramatically reducing point source emissions, and
    my written testimony gives the percentages on all of those.
        It was a big job to chair TCEQ in a big State. In
    particular, I had regulatory oversight over more than 350,000
    public and private entities, implementing and enforcing binding
    regulations on air quality, water quality, water supply, and
    waste disposal. And I might add, I have to submit for the
    record--or in whatever format you need--documents for all the
    enforcement actions I took while I was at TCEQ.
        Senator Barrasso. They will be included. Thank you.
        Ms. White. Thank you.
        Execution of environmental laws is essential, and we took a
    very strong perspective on that.
        With the help of a dedicated staff of over 3,000, and
    working with officials across the State and Federal agencies,
    TCEQ had many successes. As an example, for years Houston has
    vied with Los Angeles as the worst ozone polluter in the
    country. But under the implementation plan I developed while I
    was Chair, Houston actually attained the then ozone standard in
    2010 and 2011, far earlier than many thought possible.
        The achievements in Texas in recent years I think were
    possible because we insisted upon robust science, coordination
    across the agencies, efficient permitting, and timely,
    predictable outcomes. These principles are also now the keys to
    the President's agenda for regulatory reform and urgently
    needed new infrastructure.
        I strongly believe that the Federal Government can and
    should provide a predictable, transparent, and timely process
    for making decisions, including for major infrastructure
    projects. We owe this to the American people. And I commend
    this Committee for recognizing these issues in two, now, law. I
    believe one is called the FAST Act and MAP-21, and I think that
    is wonderful.
        This Committee has a proud history of working together to
    solve complex national problems with practical solutions that
    benefit all Americans. If confirmed, I pledge to work with this
    Committee and the President to continue that tradition and
    achieve a balanced and effective national approach to our
    environmental challenges.
        Thank you very much, and I look forward to answering your
    questions today.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. White follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Ms. Hartnett
    White. We appreciate your testimony and your presence here
    today.
        Mr. Wheeler, it is now your turn. If you would like to
    introduce anyone and then proceed with your testimony.

                     STATEMENT OF ANDREW WHEELER,
               PRINCIPAL, FAEGRE BAKER DANIELS CONSULTING

        Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Senator. I would like to introduce
    my sister, Liesel, right behind me; her husband, Tim Cooper;
    and my nephew and godson, Luke Cooper. And I really appreciate
    Luke being here today because, being here, he has broken his
    perfect attendance record at school.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Wheeler. So I am very happy and proud.
        Senator Barrasso. Does he need a note from a doctor? We can
    help him.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Wheeler. Thank you.
        And I do have three friends: my friend Don, whom I met my
    first day of law school in 1987, flew here from Seattle to be
    here just for this hearing; and my friends John and Michael,
    who climbed Kilimanjaro with me 2 years ago. And I figured if
    they could get me to the top of the mountain, they could get me
    through today.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Wheeler. Good morning, Chairman Barrasso, Ranking
    Member Carper, and Chairman Emeritus Inhofe, and members of the
    Committee. I am truly honored and humbled by this opportunity
    to appear today as the nominee for the position of Deputy
    Administrator at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. I
    want to thank President Trump for this distinguished
    opportunity, and I want to thank Administrator Pruitt for the
    trust he has shown in me in supporting my nomination.
        As many of you know, I spent 14 wonderful years working on
    this Committee for Chairman Inhofe and Senator Voinovich in a
    number of different roles, including the Majority and Minority
    Staff Director and Chief Counsel. I must say the view from this
    table is far different from the view from the staff bench
    behind the dais.
        As a side note, I have never sat here before. I think this
    table is really kind of high. If I had sat here when I was
    staff director, we would have lowered it.
        Starting with the Safe Drinking Water Act amendments in
    1996 through three highway bills, several WRDA bills,
    brownfields, diesel reduction legislation, and numerous other
    bills that I had the privilege to work on, I always tried to
    find common ground and work across the aisle.
        I would like to take a moment and speak directly to the
    career employees of the EPA who may be watching this hearing. I
    started my career at EPA in the Toxics Office in 1991 as a
    career employee. I have always believed that the career
    employees at the EPA are some of the most dedicated and hard
    working employees in the Federal Government, and if confirmed,
    I would be honored to join you again. The mission of the EPA,
    to protect human health and the environment, is critical to our
    country and its citizens, and something that I take very
    seriously, and I know that you do, too.
        President Trump and Administrator Pruitt have set an
    ambitious agenda that I intend to help implement, if confirmed
    to this position. Administrator Pruitt has talked about
    returning EPA to its core mission and purpose, a goal that I
    wholeheartedly support.
        During his confirmation hearing, Administrator Pruitt
    emphasized three key objectives: first, we are a nation of
    laws, and it is EPA's role to administer those laws faithfully.
    I understand the separation of powers through my time spent
    working here in the Senate, I know where the laws are drafted,
    many of them here in this very room, and I will work with the
    Administrator to ensure that the Agency is following the laws.
        Second, Administrator Pruitt committed that the Agency
    would acknowledge, respect, and promote the critical role of
    the States in implementing the Federal environmental laws.
    Cooperative federalism is a cornerstone of the Administrator's
    approach. We must work cooperatively with the States to ensure
    that the environment and public health are both protected.
        Third, Administrator Pruitt emphasized the important role
    that the public plays in the regulatory process. He said it is
    critical that the EPA truly listen to the diverse views of the
    American people, and that includes all of the people. It is
    vitally important that the American public understands the
    mutual goals of environmental protection and economic growth.
        The environment today is cleaner than it has ever been in
    modern times. As a nation, we have made tremendous progress
    since the 1970s, and we have to build upon that progress going
    forward.
        I would like to go off script for just a minute and
    recognize my mother, who was too ill to travel here today. When
    I was 21 months old, my sisters were 8 years and 8 months old,
    our father passed away. Our mother went back to school to
    finish her teaching degree, taught elementary school for almost
    30 years, and raised us on her own. She put all three of us
    through college and helped us with various graduate schools.
    She has been my No. 1 mentor, next to Senator Inhofe, and
    confidante, and I know I would not be here today if it wasn't
    for her constant love and support.
        Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, thank you again
    for the opportunity to appear before you today, and I want to
    thank your staff for their service. I look forward to starting
    our dialogue now by answering any questions you may have.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Wheeler follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Well, I want to thank both of you very
    much for your testimony. Throughout the hearing and with
    questions for the record, Committee members will have an
    opportunity to learn more about your commitment to public
    service and your commitment to service to our nation. I would
    ask that throughout the hearing you please respond to the
    questions today during the hearing, as well as written ones for
    the record.
        I have to ask the following questions that we ask of all
    nominees on behalf of the Committee.
        Do you agree, if confirmed, to appear before this Committee
    or designated members of this Committee and other appropriate
    committees of the Congress, and provide information subject to
    appropriate and necessary security protections with respect to
    your responsibilities?
        Ms. White. Yes.
        Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
        Senator Barrasso. And do you agree to ensure that
    testimony, briefings, documents, and electronic and other forms
    of information are provided to this Committee and its staff,
    and other appropriate committees, in a timely manner?
        Ms. White. Yes.
        Mr. Wheeler. Yes, I will.
        Senator Barrasso. And do you know of any matters which you
    may or may not have disclosed that might place you in a
    conflict of interest if you are confirmed?
        Ms. White. No.
        Mr. Wheeler. No, I do not.
        Senator Barrasso. Well, with that, Mr. Wheeler and Ms.
    White--let me start with Mr. Wheeler, but it is the same
    question then to Ms. Hartnett White. Could you talk about what
    accomplishments in your career you are most proud of?
        Mr. Wheeler. Wow. I would say I have had a lot of major
    accomplishments in my career, and I can point to some large
    bills here in the Committee; the highway bills that I worked
    on, the WRDA bill, my time at EPA. But I would have to say I
    have been in this town almost 30 years, and I would like to
    think that I have kept my personal integrity the entire time,
    and it is working also with the people that I have worked with
    on a day to day basis.
        I know--when I walked up here from the back of the room--I
    see several former staff people that have worked with me over
    the years, and it is those friendships that I have developed
    and the day to day work that I have done, and I have kept my
    integrity, and I have kept my principles intact the entire
    time.
        Senator Barrasso. Ms. White.
        Ms. White. I think the professional experience that I would
    be most proud of was the magnitude of reduction of ozone
    producing emissions in the Houston-Galveston area. Remember,
    that is the seat of the largest petrochemical complex in the
    world, with a climate highly inductive to ozone formation. And
    we did all kinds of innovative things. Talk about a process
    that involved coordination of multiple agencies at the Federal
    and State and local level.
        In fact, I said if we are right in all these measures that
    have been the source of the ozone plan, we will attain. Most
    people wouldn't have thought of it. We attained 2010, 2011. Of
    course, EPA has since strengthened the standard. We are close
    to, not quite there, but even more reductions have been made.
    If that can be done in Texas, that can be replicated in the
    world.
        And I think one of the key things was the most robust
    science, science particular to the ozone chemistry in the
    Houston-Galveston area. And I think it is exciting, were I
    confirmed, to have a job where that kind of achievement can be
    replicated across the country.
        Senator Barrasso. Let me follow up on that with both of
    you, because you have both chosen careers in environmental
    policy, so I ask why do you want to serve as the Deputy
    Administrator of the EPA, member and Chair of the CEQ in terms
    of continuing the work that you have done?
        Mr. Wheeler, if you want to start.
        Mr. Wheeler. Certainly. I really look at the career that I
    have had so far to date, and the timing of this position, as
    everything that I have done so far has led up to this at this
    point, starting as a career employee at the Agency, with my
    experience here.
        I really think I have some of the skills that would be
    useful to Administrator Pruitt and President Trump at the EPA.
    With Administrator Pruitt wanting to return to the basic
    programs of the EPA, I think I can be of help to him. I think I
    can be of help to President Trump, and I think I can be of help
    to the employees at EPA as we move forward in this new
    direction for the Agency.
        Senator Barrasso. Ms. White.
        Ms. White. I will try to articulate three reasons. Because
    my career has been so broad, it has allowed me to gain a lot of
    very useful, practical expertise with all environmental media;
    not just air quality, but water, waste, nuclear waste, in fact,
    as well across the many Federal environmental laws, and have
    had the challenge of making a very, very large bureaucracy
    function efficiently. I think to be able to apply what I have
    learned would be a great honor.
        The second is I am a great champion of getting rid of red
    tape. That is not saying anything, but this appears to be a
    time with the last two highway bills which this Committee
    approved, and the President's interest and executive orders and
    permit timeframe reduction and all of that, that this is a
    unique opportunity to have a bipartisan, supported by the
    President, major effort across the agencies to reform much of
    the NEPA process.
        Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much.
        I reserve the remainder of my time.
        Senator Carper.
        Senator Carper. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
        Again, welcome. A warm welcome to both of you two today.
        Ms. White, I was, frankly, surprised to hear the comments
    that you just shared with us with respect to ozone. In a number
    of articles and interviews, you have questioned whether ozone
    is even a harmful air pollutant. We heard a 2016--last year--
    radio interview for a program called What's Up on the radio,
    and Ms. White, apparently you said that ozone isn't harmful to
    human health unless, and I quote you, ``you put your mouth over
    the tailpipe of a car for 8 hours every day.''
        You also called on Congress to remove EPA's funding for
    implementing the ozone air quality standards--this was last
    year--and said that the standard should be 85 parts per
    billion. That is a good deal higher than the 75 parts per
    billion standard set by President Bush in 2008, and even higher
    than the 80 parts per billion standard set in 1997.
        So I just thought it was interesting, the comments that you
    made here today.
        I would just ask of you, Mr. Wheeler, the EPA's current Web
    page says, with respect to ozone, ozone in the air we breathe
    can harm our health, especially on hot, sunny days when ozone
    can reach unhealthy levels. Even relatively low levels of ozone
    can cause health effects. And the Web page goes on to describe
    the increased risk of asthma, lung infection, other
    cardiopulmonary diseases that ozone exposure can cause.
        In your introduction, we learned that you have a combined
    biology major in college, spent a majority of your career
    working on clean air issues, and I know that from personal
    experience in working with you and Governor Voinovich. But what
    do you think about the adverse health impacts that are
    associated with the EPA? Do you agree with what is on that Web
    page that I just quoted?
        Mr. Wheeler. I am not familiar with the specific Web page
    that you have just quoted, but from what you said, I would
    agree with the health effects that you listed, yes.
        Senator Carper. All right.
        Ms. White, in 2015 and in 2016, in several speeches and
    interviews and articles in The Federalist and in Focus Today,
    you compared the views of people who believe that carbon
    pollution is causing climate change to those of pagans,
    ideologues, and communists. After Pope Francis published his
    2015 Environmental Encyclical, you wrote two articles for The
    Federalist that said that the solutions that Pope Francis was
    calling for would lead to poverty, socialism, and even
    concentration camps.
        And I would ask Mr. Wheeler, do you concur in those views?
        Mr. Wheeler. As a Presbyterian, I am not going to criticize
    the Pope.
        Senator Carper. That is not our style.
        Mr. Wheeler. You are asking me if I agree with--I am
    sorry--the views?
        Senator Carper. The characterization. Again, the articles
    that I quoted. Ms. White compared the views of people who
    believed that carbon pollution is causing climate change to
    those of pagans, ideologues, and communists, and said that the
    Encyclical that Pope Francis wrote would lead to poverty,
    socialism, and concentration camps.
        Are those views that you also embrace?
        Mr. Wheeler. I would not put it that way; no, sir.
        Senator Carper. All right.
        Today, this week, representatives I think from every
    country in the world are gathered in Bonn, Germany, discussing
    how we can address climate change together. The leaders of
    every country in the world, except for the current President of
    the United States, accept climate science and are committed to
    do something about it.
        Ms. White, do you really believe that the views of all
    those countries' leaders are properly compared to those of
    pagans, ideologues, and communists?
        Ms. White. No, I do not, Senator, and I think some of those
    words and phrases are taken out of context. I was, in that
    article, also quoting either the then-current or now recently
    stepped down head of the U.N. climate program, Cristina
    Figueras, who made a comment that a global agreement on climate
    change would provide the first example to destroy the economic
    model of the industrial revolution.
        Senator Carper. Well, I hold in my hand your quotes, your
    comments verbatim, and I think they speak for themselves. It is
    good that you are here and saying these things today. I am also
    glad that we have these words that you said repeatedly in the
    past.
        My time has expired.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Carper.
        Senator Rounds.
        Senator Rounds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Let me just begin. I would like to begin with Ms. Hartnett
    White.
        Do you believe that the CEQ should play a role in
    administering the Renewable Fuel Standard, the RFS?
        Ms. White. No, I don't. I think the current arrangement
    under law that it is the primary authority of EPA to administer
    and implement the Renewable Fuel Standard program.
        Senator Rounds. Can you share a little bit with regard to
    the Renewable Fuel Standard, which, truly, in the upper
    Midwest, has provided tremendous economic opportunity to
    Midwestern farmers? The use of corn, we can grow corn like you
    can't believe. As a matter of fact, the number of bushels per
    acre has continued to increase as good science has been
    utilized and as farming practices have continued to improve at
    a rapid pace. The American farmer has proven time and time
    again that they can produce and out-produce anybody else in the
    world. Investments have been made in the corn ethanol industry,
    and I want to make certain that this industry continues to
    thrive.
        Can you tell me your view of the economic benefits of the
    RFS and what it has provided to the Midwestern corn farmers?
        Ms. White. Yes, I would, and I would like to begin by
    thanking Senator Ernst--I don't believe she is here right now--
    for sending me some current data on a number of the points you
    just made, sir. I second the President. I am supportive of all
    of the above of energy sources; all have special purposes and
    fill important niches.
        As you know, the President recently clarified his support
    for the Renewable Fuel Standard program, and I solidly support
    his support. CEQ has no direct regulatory authority over the
    Renewable Fuel Standard program, and I, of course, will support
    the letter of the law.
        What I like to say about the U.S. agriculture, never
    underestimate the productivity and innovative capacity of U.S.
    agriculture.
        Senator Rounds. Let me go one step farther, then, to
    clarify this. You have criticized the RFS in the past and the
    impact that you believe that it would have on the global food
    supply.
        Ms. White. Right.
        Senator Rounds. Can you elaborate on these statements and
    your belief today with regard to the RFS and any impact it
    would have on the global food supply?
        Ms. White. I would be happy to. I, in the early years of
    the program, made some particularly critical questions about
    whether ethanol would challenge the global food supply. Later,
    when I wrote a book, published 2 years ago, I erred by not
    assuring that I had current data, and the data that has been
    shared with me by Senator Ernst and others now, what a great
    victory; and I congratulate the corn industry.
        But the amount of increased productivity, how that has
    increased the supply of corn, that it appears now, on the basis
    of data now, there isn't any kind of inherent attention. There
    is enough on the surfeit that it has been so productive, and I
    salute the industry.
        And as a child of rural America, I painfully observed over
    much of my lifetime the decline of once vibrant small towns and
    people who would so like to stay there, but there just is not
    the employment. And an industry like ethanol has really
    contributed to giving new life to rural communities and keeping
    families together and all those things.
        Senator Rounds. Very good.
        Let me ask this also of both of you; and I will begin with
    Mr. Wheeler, but I want both of you to answer this. In the
    prior Administration there were several instances in which
    regulations were promulgated based on what I believe to be
    questionable science or without asking the science advisory
    boards for their input. It increasingly seemed like politics
    were replacing the science in the regulatory process.
        I would like to know your views on sound science and on the
    role that it plays in the Federal regulatory process, and I am
    going to end with this, as well. It goes beyond just your view
    of sound science, but being able to release the information
    upon which environmental policies are being based so that we
    can gain confidence in those decisions.
        And I think--as Ranking Member Carper has indicated--I am a
    firm believer that when requests from a member of the U.S.
    Senate are made, if they are not responded to, that does not
    provide confidence that the decisions have been made
    appropriately. I don't care whether it is a Republican or a
    Democrat Administration. That type of communication has to be
    respected. And I would like your thoughts on both of those,
    please.
        Mr. Wheeler. First, I am not a scientist, but I would
    certainly listen to the career scientists at the Agency and the
    outside science advisory boards to the Agency on what is the
    best available science at the time for any regulatory
    decisions. And I also agree with you and believe that all that
    should be out in the public for everybody to see, because I
    think when we make informed decisions, and we explain to the
    public why we are making the decisions, that is paramount to
    what we do at the Agency.
        Senator Rounds. Ms. Hartnett White.
        Ms. White. I think it is key to have access to that data.
    That is the bedrock data from which all kinds of other programs
    and analyses occur.
        Senator Rounds. The second part of my question was what
    about communications between members of the U.S. Senate and
    your offices; what is the belief? Do you believe that those
    requests should be responded to?
        Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely. I have a history on that with the
    Committee that would take me a while, but I worked with Senator
    Carper in 2001 to make sure that he had the Clear Skies data
    that he was looking for, and I worked with Senator Jeffords'
    staff in 2003 to try to make sure that they had the information
    that they were requesting from the EPA.
        Senator Rounds. Ms. Hartnett White.
        Ms. White. And I agree, yes, I think that is essential to
    making the full Federal Government work.
        Senator Rounds. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Rounds.
        Senator Carper. Chairman, can I ask unanimous consent for
    the record that the six times that Ms. White has called for the
    repeal of the Renewable Fuel Standard in the past decade, as
    recently as last year, be made a part of the record?
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. I would also point out that under Ms.
    White's leadership from 2001 to 2007, the Texas Commission on
    Environmental Quality issued administrative orders that
    required payments of more than $47 million in penalties. During
    that time, the Texas Attorney General's Office obtained civil
    judicial orders in cases involving TCEQ that required payments
    of more than $380 million, and I also ask unanimous consent
    that we insert this into the record. Without objection.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Senator Cardin.
        Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I want to thank both of our nominees for their willingness
    to serve in a very important public position.
        Mr. Wheeler, I particularly want to underscore the message
    you made in your opening statement to the career people at EPA.
    I very much appreciate that statement. And I was impressed by
    your highlight of maintaining your integrity, which, to me, is
    not always easy. It is a proud accomplishment. It is always
    good to see a person from our staff move on, so it is good to
    see you here.
        Mr. Wheeler. Thank you.
        Senator Cardin. I want to first ask consent that a letter
    signed by 47 conservation, environmental, and public health
    organizations to members of this Committee in opposition to Ms.
    White's confirmation be made part of the record based upon that
    she should not be placed in such a pivotal position in an
    agency whose mission she clearly does not believe in. I would
    ask unanimous consent.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Cardin. Ms. White, I want to follow up on some of
    Senator Carper's points about your comments. Just last Friday,
    the Trump administration released the fourth National Climate
    Assessment for the U.S. Climate Research Program, reiterating
    that human activity is the dominant cause of global temperature
    rise.
        Now, I say that in that COP 23 is convening this week in
    Bonn, Germany, the twenty-third opportunity for the
    international community to come together on climate issues, and
    I particularly was concerned about an article you wrote that
    contains much of what Senator Carper was referring to. The
    article was Signing the Paris Agreement Is the Worst Way to
    Celebrate Earth Day.
        Now, when the climate agreement was signed, there were two
    countries that did not participate; the rest of the global
    community did. Those two countries have since now joined the
    Paris agreement, so it was the entire global community that
    came together, and now there is one country that is backing off
    of it: the United States.
        So I have a responsibility, as the Ranking Democrat on the
    Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which has primary
    responsibility over the international global discussions on
    climate. So I questioned Secretary nominee Rex Tillerson as to
    his views on this, and he was very open and said, yes, the
    United States should be sitting at the table during climate
    discussions with the international community, and yes, climate
    change is real. There may be different ways of dealing with it,
    but it is real, and we have to deal with it.
        It seems to me that you don't believe climate change is
    real.
        Ms. White. I am uncertain.
        Senator Cardin. You are uncertain.
        Ms. White. No, I am not, I am sorry. I jumped ahead.
    Climate change is of course real.
        Senator Cardin. Does human activity affect climate change?
        Ms. White. More than likely, but the extent to which I
    think is very uncertain.
        Senator Cardin. Have you relied on scientists to give you
    that answer or not?
        Ms. White. No, I had the question for a very long time.
        Senator Cardin. So you have a distinguished background in
    academics and humanities and religion.
        Ms. White. Yes.
        Senator Cardin. Which is fine. It is a wonderful field. You
    are not a scientist, are you?
        Ms. White. No, I am not a scientist, but in my personal
    capacity I have many questions that remain unanswered by
    current climate policy. I think we indeed need to have more
    precise explanation of the human role and the natural role.
        Senator Cardin. And where do you get that information from?
        Ms. White. A wide range of information. The IPCC is a very
    good source.
        Senator Cardin. What is that?
        Ms. White. United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on
    Climate Change that has been the vehicle for ongoing assessment
    of climate change.
        Senator Cardin. What role do scientists play in this?
        Ms. White. Many of them are the authors. There are
    thousands of them involved in the whole, but they are, of
    course, they are scientists.
        Senator Cardin. Would you support the EPA allowing its
    scientists to fully participate in all discussions?
        Ms. White. I don't see why not. I think science should
    overwhelmingly guide assessments and all of that, but I don't
    think they dictate policy results.
        Senator Cardin. Do you stand by your statement that carbon
    dioxide, greenhouse gases are not dangerous at all to our
    environment?
        Ms. White. I would characterize it differently, but I would
    say that, as I did earlier, it is likely that CO2
    emissions from human activity have some influence on the
    climate, but again, not to the extent, but CO2 in
    the atmosphere has none of the characteristics of a pollutant
    that contaminates and fouls and all of that that can have
    direct impact on human health. As an atmospheric gas, it is a
    plant nutrient.
        Senator Cardin. One last question, Mr. Chairman, and that
    is, you disagreed with the Supreme Court decision that said
    that the EPA had a responsibility because of the impact of
    greenhouse gases on public health. Are you now changing that or
    do you still----
        Ms. White. That was styled as the Massachusetts decision in
    2007. That is the Supreme Court's ruling. That is the law of
    the land.
        Senator Cardin. But you think it was based on the wrong
    scientific information?
        Ms. White. No. I thought it was based on an overly
    expansive reading of the definition of an air pollutant in the
    Clean Air Act.
        Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Cardin.
        Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to
    submit for the record materials relating to Ms. White's views
    that higher carbon dioxide levels are not harmful to our
    environment.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The referenced information follows:]

        Senator Barrasso. Senator Fischer.
        Senator Fischer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you both for being here today.
        Mr. Wheeler, I appreciated you coming to meet with me, and
    in our meeting we did discuss the importance of the RFS to my
    State and to the viability, I believe, of all of rural America.
        The Deputy Administrator plays an important role in
    ensuring that the Renewable Fuel Standard functions according
    to congressional intent. How familiar are you with the
    President's commitment to the RFS and to biofuel production,
    and will you uphold the President's commitment to the RFS?
        Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Senator. I enjoyed our visit and
    talking about this issue in your office.
        The RFS is the law of the land, and I fully support the
    program. I have not had specific conversation with the
    President on this issue, but from all accounts, fully supports
    the program and the intent of the program, and I support both
    the law and the intent of the RFS program.
        Senator Fischer. Thank you very much.
        Ms. White, as I discussed in our meeting, I do have serious
    concerns with numerous factually incorrect statements you have
    made about the RFS. I worry about your lack of understanding
    about the purpose of the law, which is to provide market access
    for renewable fuels and to promote agriculture and to promote
    rural America. As I have stated multiple times, I support an
    all of the above energy policy, but I worry about your
    extremist views and your role as an advisor to the President.
        We are all aware of your statements and position on the
    RFS. However, it is the law of the land. Should you be
    confirmed, I would ask you will you echo President Trump's
    support for the statute and uphold the congressional intent of
    the RFS?
        Ms. White. Yes, I would. That is what I understand as
    upholding the rule of law.
        Senator Fischer. Do you think it is important to provide
    the President with accurate, factual information when you
    provide him with options on issues, if you are confirmed?
        Ms. White. Absolutely. And that advice needs to be based on
    the most solid, informed, robust science and data.
        Senator Fischer. In our conversation in my office, and in
    your answers to Senator Rounds, you did state that you used
    flawed data as recently as 2014, as recently as 2016 with
    regards to the RFS in making statements such as ethanol
    policies of the United States have led to food riots in several
    countries over the last few years. That was in 2014.
        I would ask you if you can guarantee in any way to us that
    you will check data, that you will check facts, that you will,
    in your capacity, if you are confirmed in this position, to
    always, always check and make sure you are providing that
    accurate information to the President of the United States when
    you give him options?
        Ms. White. The specific question, please?
        Senator Fischer. Will you use facts when you are presenting
    options?
        Ms. White. Oh, of course.
        Senator Fischer. And current data.
        Ms. White. And the 2014 statements you are talking about
    was a part of the book.
        Senator Fischer. Will you use current data and facts?
        Ms. White. Yes, I will, unquestionably.
        Senator Fischer. Thank you.
        I would remind people that we are talking about more than
    corn here. Of course, when we talk about the RFS and renewable
    fuels, we are looking at second generation biodiesel. We are
    looking at our soybean growers, as well. This is a huge issue
    for rural America, and we need to take it seriously.
        As a follow up, Ms. White, there have been press reports
    about some interest in altering the RFS before 2022. I would
    ask would you commit to me today that, should you be confirmed,
    you would not support opening up the RFS before 2022?
        Ms. White. I would support the President's position in
    that.
        Senator Fischer. So you will not commit that to me at this
    point?
        Ms. White. I can't really prejudge that.
        Senator Fischer. OK.
        Ms. White. And I might also add it is not because, at
    another time, I would feel comfortable making a clearer
    position.
        Senator Fischer. OK, fair enough. Thank you.
        Mr. Wheeler, we also discussed the importance of
    communication between the EPA and stakeholders that are
    impacted by regulations. For many years I have heard a lot of
    frustrations from constituents about the lack of dedication at
    the EPA to assist with compliance requirements for communities
    and for businesses.
        Sometimes we have seen in the previous years really an
    agency that I think works on a gotcha mentality instead of
    looking at a collaborative approach. So I would ask you if you
    would look at using collaborative or cooperation with
    federalism in working with States and local communities, and
    really being an agency that assists States and local
    communities to meet and be in compliance with regulations that
    are so very important for us.
        Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely, Senator. Administrator Pruitt's
    commitment to cooperative federalism I think goes right along
    with what you just said, and I am looking forward to helping
    him implement that.
        Senator Fischer. Thank you so much.
        Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Fischer.
        Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, can I make a unanimous
    consent request that a number of references in recent years to
    paganism, communism, relating that to climate change from Ms.
    White be entered into the record, please?
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Senator Booker.
        Senator Booker. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Ms. Hartnett White, I am very concerned about environmental
    justice issues in our country, and I have this belief--which I
    don't think is radical--that every American should have access
    to clean air, clean water, even clean soil to plant in. Because
    of the issues of urban areas, I live in the central ward of
    Newark and see how challenging the exposure to particulate
    matter is for children in my city that I was mayor of; asthma
    rates off the charts, teachers complaining about even just
    being able to educate kids because of the level of kids'
    missing school because of asthma.
        But this is not just a New Jersey problem. I have traveled,
    since I have been on this Committee, to Duplin County, North
    Carolina, where people who live around CAFOs have alarming
    rates not just of cancers, but also of respiratory diseases. A
    few months ago I was in a place unfortunately nicknamed Cancer
    Alley in Louisiana, between Baton Rouge and New Orleans, where
    again, particulate matter released by petrochemical plants has
    people literally gasping for air at alarming rates.
        A lot of my colleagues have already mentioned some of your
    alarming rhetoric on some of these issues, but I just really
    have an urgent concern about your views of the dangers of
    particulate matter in some of your past statements. I was
    really shocked when my staff pulled documents that showed that
    at an Americans for Prosperity conference in 2011, you publicly
    stated that ``people do not die from particulate matter
    levels.'' Then again in 2013 you testified actually before a
    House subcommittee and said that ``In the last 5 years, EPA's
    regulatory initiatives have been preoccupied with particulate
    matter as if it was a source of major risk to premature
    mortality.''
        I look at a lot of the data and studies, and I had my staff
    pull for the hearing, and they pulled one study, which is one
    of the most comprehensive, really an unprecedented study that
    was published in the New England Journal of Medicine from
    Harvard University, which looked at 60 million Medicaid
    participants, 60 million people over a 12-year period,
    longitudinal study of an unprecedented nature, with far more
    statistical power than any previous analyses done.
        The researchers looked at every American over 65, including
    people in rural places like I named and urban places like I
    live in, and the analysis unequivocally linked long term
    exposure to ozone and fine particulate matter to an increased
    risk of premature death. The study found, in fact, no evidence
    of safe levels of exposure to particulate matter. It really
    sounded the alarm.
        And I will tell you what is disturbing to me is how this
    particulate matter seems to affect low income people. It
    affects poor folks, and as a result, disproportionately people
    of color. And they show that the higher risk of premature
    deaths for African-Americans, for example, are three times
    higher. Three times higher.
        So I just really need to understand your position on the
    urgency of particulate matter and dealing with this
    environmental justice. So maybe the specific question, first of
    all, do you think the New England Journal of Medicine is wrong
    in this study about the crisis of particulate matter?
        Ms. White. Senator, I would have to read it before I answer
    that. But if I may, I would like to tell you about some work I
    am proud of regarding environmental justice in Texas.
        Senator Booker. You will forgive me, but I only have a
    minute and 10 seconds left, so I just would like to push you a
    little bit. So you think the New England Medical Journal of
    Medicine might publish a study that isn't scientifically sound?
        Ms. White. I think there's all different kinds of
    methodologies, and if I were still at TCEQ, I would gather my
    chief toxicologist and his staff, the professionals, to
    completely absorb that and brief me on it.
        Senator Booker. So I think what I am trying to get at is do
    you or do you not believe that we have a crisis of particulate
    matter in the United States of America in certain communities
    now, especially low income communities?
        Ms. White. Why, when the bulk of the country attains the
    national ambient air quality standard for fine particulate
    matter, that, to me, is confusing, if there is a crisis.
        Senator Booker. Well, I don't find it confusing; I find it
    really concerning, as we have a nation right now with the No. 1
    reason why kids miss school, medical reason, is asthma; that we
    see that disproportionately in communities that are dealing
    with real problems with particulate matter, whether it is
    highways, airports, CAFOs, or the like.
        I find it deeply, deeply concerning your past statements
    and your inability right now to say for the record that you
    think there is a crisis in this country with particulate matter
    and the respiratory diseases that are affecting so many of our
    children. To take a position that is supposed to be protecting
    people to a fundamental American right of clean air, clean
    water, I have grave concerns about your nomination.
        But my time has expired.
        Senator Barrasso. Senator Carper.
        Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, could I ask unanimous consent
    that Ms. White's views be entered into the record relating to
    her view that particulate matter does not harm human health,
    please?
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. I would also like to point out that Dan
    Patrick, the Lieutenant Governor of Texas, has written in
    support of Ms. White's nomination. He goes on to say, ``Ms.
    White has over 30 years' experience on environmental issues,
    served as Chair of the Texas Commission on Environmental
    Quality and as Director of the Texas Water Development Board
    and the Lower Colorado River Authority.'' He goes on to say,
    ``Her record is outstanding.''
        Unanimous consent to enter this into the record.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Senator Ernst.
        Senator Ernst. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        And thank you to our witnesses and nominees today.
        While campaigning, then-candidate Trump made numerous
    pledges to support biofuels and the Renewable Fuel Standard.
    You see it has been a topic that has been brought up a lot this
    morning. And he had reiterated those commitments as President,
    as well. He understands the value of an all of the above
    approach to energy production that helps our nation unlock all
    of our bounty--regardless of where that comes from--from oil
    and gas to wind, solar, and biofuels.
        Specifically, biofuels form the bedrock of our rural
    communities and support our farmers, while helping to further
    our domestic energy independence. We are producing and
    consuming more biofuels now than ever before, and yet the price
    of corn and soybeans, the primary feedstocks for producing
    biodiesel and ethanol, are at the lowest levels in decades.
        Right now, at the Merc, in Red Oak, cash corn is right
    around $3 a bushel, and soybeans are under $9, and both of
    these numbers are well below our cost of production. So, today,
    as my husband sits in the tractor helping my sister and
    brother-in-law with harvest, they are finding that their return
    on the investment is very, very low. The prices are so low that
    farmers working around the clock to bring in this huge crop are
    losing money on every acre. And I think this should put the
    food versus fuel debate to rest for good.
        EPA Administrator Pruitt has already done so much to help
    our farmers and ranchers, including rolling back the onerous
    WOTUS rule. He has also committed to me on several occasions,
    including in front of this Committee, to uphold both the spirit
    and the letter of the law, and I want to thank both of you for
    making that commitment, as Senator Fischer had asked, in front
    of this Committee today. So thank you for doing that.
        Ms. White, during our meeting last week, I had the chance
    to ask you about your qualifications for this role, as well as
    your past criticisms of the RFS and biofuels, particularly the
    food versus fuel argument, which is something I believe Senator
    Rounds also addressed. In light of the current market forces at
    work in the ag economy, which I touched on in my opening, has
    your position on this changed?
        Ms. White. On the food?
        Senator Ernst. Food versus fuel.
        Ms. White. Yes. This data, you know, is great news, because
    the ethanol program doesn't somehow create some problem with
    meeting global food demand.
        Senator Ernst. Thank you. And if confirmed, you will be
    working closely with the President in your advisory role at
    CEQ. The President has made clear on numerous occasions that he
    intends to uphold both the spirit and the letter of the RFS. Do
    you envision any scenarios out there in which you would offer
    advice to the President or support policies that run contrary
    to his agenda or campaign promises?
        Ms. White. There is none that comes to mind, but you know,
    matters change, so I couldn't, you know, exactly predict what
    would be the variables involved.
        Senator Ernest. Should those variables change, though, you
    will do your best to work with varying points of view to make
    sure that the information is accurate and presented
    appropriately to the President?
        Ms. White. Absolutely.
        Senator Ernst. OK, thank you.
        And also for Mr. Wheeler, the primary concern that many of
    the opponents of the RFS have raised is the price of compliance
    credits, or the RINs, and one way we have suggested to mitigate
    that is to address the Reid vapor pressure, or RVP, issue,
    which would make E15 and higher blends of ethanol available
    year round nationwide. There is some debate as to whether or
    not this RVP issue can be addressed administratively or whether
    it requires legislation, such as the bill that was introduced
    by Senator Fischer.
        If confirmed, would you commit to issuing a determination
    on whether the EPA can do this administratively?
        Mr. Wheeler. Yes. I just want to make sure that I am not
    committing to predetermine what the outcome would be.
        Senator Ernst. Exactly.
        Mr. Wheeler. But if I understood your question correctly,
    then, yes.
        Senator Ernest. Yes or no, yes, that you could do it
    administratively. We need to know that.
        Mr. Wheeler. Not prejudging that yes or no, yes, I could
    commit to providing one of those at the appropriate time.
        Senator Ernst. Thank you. I appreciate that, because we
    need that determination from the EPA. If you are not able to
    handle the RVP issue administratively, then we need to turn to
    a bill or do it legislatively, such as Senator Fischer has
    presented, so we would need to work that issue through
    Congress. And I do look forward to working with you on this
    issue. I think we do need to make E15 available year round, and
    again, work on our energy independence, as the President has
    made this one of his goals.
        So, with that, Mr. Chairman, I thank you for my time.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Ernst.
        Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, can I make another unanimous
    consent request?
        Senator Barrasso. Senator Carper.
        Senator Carper. If I could submit for the record a November
    7, 2017, letter from the Delaware Riverkeeper Network to
    members of our Committee. The letter urges the Committee to
    reject Ms. White's nomination on the basis that her record is
    of loyalty and bias in favor of the fossil fuel industry. The
    letter states, ``Someone who claims that `there are no major
    environmental problems' facing our country has no business
    developing and implementing environmental policy at a time when
    our nation is facing the greatest environmental threats as ever
    encountered.''
        That is the end of the quote. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Also for the record, I would like to
    introduce by Dr. Bryan Shaw, the Chairman of the Texas
    Commission on Environmental Quality, that was written in
    support of Ms. White's nomination. Dr. Shaw explains, ``As the
    current TCEQ Chairman, I have a unique perspective on her
    contribution to this agency. Serving as the TCEQ chairman is no
    easy feat, and she served the State of Texas with grace and
    poise.'' He goes on to say, ``As evidenced by her career and
    background in environmental regulations, Kathleen is more than
    capable to serve as the Chairman of the Council on
    Environmental Quality.''
        Ask unanimous consent. Without objection.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Senator Markey.
        Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very much.
        Ms. White, your positions are so far out of the mainstream
    that they are not just outliers, they are outrageous; and from
    my perspective, you have a fringe voice that denies science and
    economics and reality. So I would like to turn to a subject
    here that you have commented on, and that is the renewable
    industry. You said in 2016, ``Renewables are a false hope that
    simply won't work.'' In the same piece you said, ``Intermittent
    renewables are parasitic on backup power from reliable fossil
    fuels.''
        Well, wind power is now up to 7 percent of all of our
    electricity. In 2020 we are projected to have 120,000 megawatts
    of wind, and we now have over 100,000 Americans working in the
    wind industry. By 2020 we are going to have half a million
    Americans working in the wind and solar industry--half a
    million Americans. Most of them are good paying, blue collar
    jobs. These are roofers, they are electricians, they are steel
    workers, they are people who are going to be engineers working
    on the turbines.
        Are you saying that these 500,000 people are parasitic,
    that they are working for an industry that is parasitic and
    harming America?
        Ms. White. I would like to make two points of
    clarification. The false hope phrase comes from one of the
    several engineers hired by Google to come out with a plan where
    you could really be powered by 90 percent by renewables when
    that was their conclusion, that as a matter of physics
    renewables----
        Senator Markey. Do you think the wind and solar blue collar
    workers are working for a parasitic industry?
        Ms. White. In using the word parasitic, I was only
    referring to the fact that when you have an intermittent energy
    source, you have to have a backup with a steady state reliable
    source. I was not talking about any employees.
        Senator Markey. Well, the impression you leave is that this
    is not a real industry, that wind and solar are not actually
    playing a vital part in producing new energy in our country,
    whether it be in Iowa, which is now upwards of 35 or 40 percent
    of all electricity with wind, and State after State. So I just
    think it is an unfortunate and cruel characterization of all of
    these workers, and it will be a half a million by 2020, at the
    current pace, most of them blue collar.
        If it was 50,000 coal miners, you would never say that
    about coal miners. But why would you say it about the 500,000
    blue collar workers who are in the renewable energy? It is just
    absolutely wrong, and calling them inconsequential is even more
    wrong in terms of your economic analysis. It is a very real
    addition, and it is growing, and that is what is most fearful
    in the hearts of the coal industry. But you can't characterize
    them in a way, these workers; that is so painful, I am sure, to
    hear them be described as working in industries that aren't
    contributing dramatically to American economic growth.
        Mr. Wheeler, as a former lobbyist for Murray Energy, you
    have made a career working on behalf of the fossil fuel
    industry to eviscerate regulations designed to protect public
    health and the environment. Murray Energy has sued EPA to stop
    clean air and water protections. Five of those cases are
    ongoing. As EPA Deputy Administrator, you would be in a
    position to serve as plaintiff, defendant, judge, and jury of
    these ongoing five lawsuits.
        Will you agree to recuse yourself from these lawsuits which
    Murray Energy brought against the EPA not just for 1 year, but
    for the entirety of the time that you are the Deputy
    Administrator of the EPA? Will you commit to recusing yourself
    from any of those matters?
        Mr. Wheeler. Two points. First of all, I am not sure which
    of the five. My law firm did not represent Murray in any of the
    litigation against the EPA. I have talked to the career ethics
    officials at the Agency, and I have had preliminary discussions
    with them on my recusals, what I would have to do, and I am
    going to follow the guidance that they have given me, and I
    will not be meeting with my former clients or my former law
    firm, in following the advice and guidance of the career ethics
    officials at the Agency.
        Senator Markey. Will you recuse yourself from the lawsuits,
    which are still ongoing, that have been brought by the interest
    that you were representing before you were nominated for this
    position?
        Mr. Wheeler. Again, Senator, I will abide by the guidance
    and requirements given to me by the career ethics officials at
    the Agency on what I would have to recuse myself from. At this
    point, in discussions with them, I don't anticipate needing any
    waivers. I will be recusing myself from any work where there is
    a conflict going forward.
        Senator Markey. I am just afraid you are going to wind up
    as the plaintiff, defendant, judge, and jury in one of these
    five matters, and I just think it would be wrong.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Inhofe [presiding]. Thank you, Senator Markey.
        First of all, right now I don't think I will ask any
    questions of Andrew Wheeler since he worked with me and for me
    for 14 years. There is nothing I could ask that I don't already
    know. You will be a great, great help to the EPA.
        I would like to make one observation though. All the
    discussion on this side has discussed the RFS. The RFS, in
    fact, is really in the jurisdiction of the EPA and not the CEQ.
    Actually, Andrew, that is your problem and not hers.
        Let me say to Ms. White, I understand several of the
    extremists are driving a narrative that you hate the
    environment and worked to give cover to polluters when you were
    at Texas Commission CEQ. However, I was looking at the
    enforcement numbers of the Texas CEQ during your tenure. To me,
    it looks like a number of administrative orders and amounts of
    penalties increased significantly. I think that is very
    important because you had a job to be agnostic in terms of who
    you were criticizing and blaming and so forth. Would you
    address that?
        Ms. White. I would be happy to. I might share with you an
    example of my commitment to environmental protection. I really
    think totally in terms of fundamental protection of human
    health and welfare. Risk to children particularly motivates me.
        In response to an environmental justice issue, we had a
    program where we went to key plants within the vast Houston
    industrial petrochemical complex and really increased the
    amount of air monitors so we could really know what we were
    dealing with. We required that operators of the industries in
    question had fence line monitors, very expensive things to do.
    We got the data. We had sensors on the families who were most
    concerned or who had demonstrable health impact so we could get
    that information. We worked back to the industry to operate in
    a way that minimized or eliminated the troubling pollution.
        Senator Inhofe. How about penalties?
        Ms. White. Yes, and a lot of those were following Federal
    Clean Air Act, Federal Clean Water Act, very important and
    essential portions of environmental protection. I took that
    very seriously.
        I think, regrettably, part of the reason why we were able
    to reduce emissions so much was that there was certain
    enforcement, if there was any departure from their permits that
    could possibly have been controlled.
        Senator Inhofe. Information that I have, which I think
    needs to be in the record, is that you have penalized companies
    that did not comply with the very thing that has been emanating
    from the other side of the aisle.
        Ms. White. We have 16 regional offices in Texas, and almost
    all are devoted to investigations and enforcement actions if
    they are needed.
        Senator Inhofe. Thank you very much.
        We have had 8 years of an Administration that does not want
    fossil fuels, coal, oil, and gas, and does not want nuclear.
    Yet sometimes you just have to appeal to logic and ask the
    question. If well over 80 percent of the energy it takes to run
    America is either fossil fuels or nuclear, and you extract that
    from all of the above, how do you run the machine called
    America? Another way of putting it is, are there risks
    associated with solely relying on renewable energy?
        Ms. White. We have seen in other countries that is the case
    in Germany and the UK. I might qualify by saying I am not as
    current on these numbers as previously, but the average retail
    electric rates in Germany are two to three times higher than
    the average retail rates in this country in significant part
    for the reason that they are very aggressive.
        Senator Inhofe. I would further say you have actually been
    criticized for some of the penalties that have come from your
    office in the State of Texas. I know that is true because I
    know some of the individuals.
        As chair of the Texas CEQ, one of your responsibilities was
    to review applications for new electricity generation. Can you
    tell us about the process you used when deciding whether to
    permit new electricity generation?
        Ms. White. We followed the law, first of all, importantly,
    the Clean Air Act as interpreted by EPA. We required all kinds
    of maybe more data, meaningful modeling, and robust science as
    a part of that.
        They are permits that derive from the Federal Clean Air
    Act, but we did the permits in a very, very strict way.
        Senator Inhofe. I appreciate that very much. My time has
    expired.
        I wanted to show and demonstrate what you, as the
    Administrator of the Texas CEQ, did in following the law
    regardless of who was responsible. Thank you.
        Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Whitehouse.
        Senator Whitehouse. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Chairman, there is another voice from Texas that has a
    rather different view of Ms. Hartnett White. That is the Dallas
    Morning News, the local newspaper which under the headline,
    Trump Errs in Naming Climate Denier and Former Texas Regulator
    to Environmental Post, went on to say, ``Her performance as an
    environmental regulator in Texas suggests that she would lock
    step in dismantling vital environmental protections.''
        They described her record as, ``abominable.'' They
    described her as ``an apologist for energy interests.'' They
    concluded by saying, ``The nation needs a White House advisor
    who respects science and seeks a reasoned balance between
    energy needs and environmental protections. Kathleen Hartnett
    White does neither.''
        They went on to put in a kind of special extra section with
    a list of bullet points on why Kathleen Hartnett White is wrong
    for the job. I would ask unanimous consent that the Texas
    editorial be put into the record.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The referenced information was not received at time of
    print.]
        Senator Whitehouse. Mr. Wheeler, was anything happening
    when you climbed Kilimanjaro that relates to fossil fuel
    emissions?
        Mr. Wheeler. The air was very thin, if you are referring to
    the glacier.
        Senator Whitehouse. I am asking you, was anything happening
    on Kilimanjaro?
        Mr. Wheeler. The glacier is still there on top.
        Senator Whitehouse. That is not answering my question.
        Mr. Wheeler. I did not understand your question, then.
        Senator Whitehouse. Was there anything going on that you
    are aware of, did you learn anything about what was happening
    on Mt. Kilimanjaro that relates to fossil fuel emissions?
        Mr. Wheeler. No, sir.
        Senator Whitehouse. Nothing. OK.
        You are a lobbyist for Murray Energy?
        Mr. Wheeler. Yes, Murray Energy is one of my clients.
        Senator Whitehouse. The head of Murray Energy, Bob Murray,
    has said that he has a 3-page plan that is being implemented by
    Scott Pruitt at the EPA. He said they are already through the
    first page. What can you tell us about Bob Murray's 3-page plan
    that he claims Scott Pruitt is implementing at the EPA?
        Mr. Wheeler. I did not work on that, and I do not have a
    copy of that memo.
        Senator Whitehouse. Would you be able to get your hands on
    one?
        Mr. Wheeler. I also have client confidentiality concerns
    with my clients as well. I don't have a copy of the memo, no.
        Senator Whitehouse. We also have disclosure interests when
    you are a candidate for a significant Federal position. Are you
    asserting that there is attorney-client privilege between you
    and Murray Energy Corporation with respect to the 3-page plan?
        Mr. Wheeler. I have deregistered representing him as of
    August. I don't have one in my possession.
        Senator Whitehouse. Have you seen it?
        Mr. Wheeler. I saw it briefly at the beginning of the year,
    but I don't have a copy of it.
        Senator Whitehouse. Do you recall anything about it?
        Mr. Wheeler. No. I don't even know how many pages it was. I
    think you said it was three pages?
        Senator Whitehouse. That is what Bob Murray said it was. I
    have never seen it, so I would not know, but he said he had a
    3-page plan that Scott Pruitt is implementing for him at the
    EPA and that he is through the first page for Bob Murray
    already. I am trying to inquire about that.
        You said you have seen it. Does it look like three pages,
    two pages, or four pages? You are the one who saw it.
        Mr. Wheeler. Somewhere around there. I did not have it in
    my possession. I looked at it and handed it back to him.
        Senator Whitehouse. Do you remember where you were when you
    looked at it and what the context was for that conversation?
        Mr. Wheeler. No, actually, I don't. It may have been in our
    offices, but I don't remember.
        Senator Whitehouse. ``Our offices'' meaning your law firm?
        Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
        Senator Whitehouse. I guess I will try to follow that up
    further with questions for the record because I think it is
    something of a significant situation if the CEO of a regulated
    industry is saying he has given his regulator a 3-page plan and
    takes credit for having gotten through the first page of it
    already. We have a candidate for Deputy Administrator who said
    he has seen it and confirm that it exists.
        I think the American people are entitled to an EPA that is
    not following a coal company's 3-page plan but is following
    wherever the best interests of the American people lead,
    wherever the best interests of real science leads.
        I hope the Chairman will allow us to consider pursuing how
    we get our hands on this 3-page plan that Mr. Wheeler has seen
    and that evidently, according to Mr. Murray, is now driving
    what happens at EPA.
        I have one question for Ms. Hartnett White. Are you aware
    of anything that is happening in the oceans that relates to
    fossil fuel emissions?
        Ms. White. There are probably a number of them.
        Senator Whitehouse. Name a few.
        Ms. White. I have a very superficial understanding as far
    as that. Acidification issues are one. I have not read widely
    or deeply. I have read some with different perspectives, some
    of which suggest that it is a very, very fragile set of changes
    in acidification and others that say for long eons in
    geological history, there are certain places where certain
    oceans may have changes in acidification levels but not others.
        Changes up or down are not inherently a problem, but no, I
    cannot speak as an authority on that. I am aware it is one of
    the multiple key issues as far as potential impacts of manmade
    global warming.
        Senator Whitehouse. My time has expired, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you for letting me go over about 50 seconds.
        Senator Barrasso. Senator Boozman.
        Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you all for being here and your willingness to serve.
        I just came back from the floor of the Senate. I was
    speaking about a veterans' bill that myself and Senator Wyden
    had worked on together and were successful in getting it
    eventually put into another bill and passed. It is an important
    thing that really will make a difference for several
    individuals in the military.
        Over the years, Mr. Wheeler, you have been an integral part
    of helping this Committee pass many important pieces of
    legislation. Like the Veterans Committee, this Committee has
    areas where we do not have a lot of agreement, but we have
    other areas where we have tremendous agreement. You have played
    a big part in helping us put those together.
        A lot of people don't understand how difficult it is
    getting a comprehensive, bipartisan piece of legislation
    passed. How do you feel your role as a staff member at the EPW
    Committee has prepared you to bring people from all walks of
    life to the table to develop and implement important EPA
    regulations?
        Mr. Wheeler. Working here for 14 years, I worked on a
    number of different bipartisan bills, including three different
    highway bills, several WRDA bills, the Diesel Emissions
    Reduction Act with Senators Carper and Inhofe, and brownfields
    legislation.
        Throughout the time I spent here, I met with a wide variety
    of people with concerns and problems before the Federal
    Government that needed help from Congress, not just legislative
    help but help with agencies.
        It ties back to my time when I worked at the EPA at the
    beginning of my career. I think between my time here working on
    the different bipartisan bills and trying to work across the
    aisle, there were a number of bills that we tried to work
    across the aisle that we just were not able to get over the
    finish line over the years.
        I learned lessons not only from our accomplishments but
    also from some of our failures. I think what I learned most of
    all is that both sides come to the table with strong views
    sometimes, but wanting to do the right thing.
        It is important to try to work past some of the politics to
    get to solutions that help the American people.
        Senator Boozman. Very good.
        You mentioned just now your time at EPA and EPW and got
    some good environmental outcomes that also provided regulatory
    certainty for the country. Can you talk about the benefit to
    the environment and economic benefits when you have regulatory
    certainty?
        Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely. I think regulatory certainty is
    very important. In my time working with a number of different
    clients and different industries, it is not that people are out
    there trying to figure out what to do wrong or how to break a
    rule or regulation. They want to know what the rules are and
    want to know with certainty as they move forward with projects,
    what they have to do and what the requirements are.
        I think it is incumbent upon the EPA to make sure that is
    clear for anyone trying to do business in the United States. I
    don't think we would have as many violations if everyone
    understood what the requirements were and what they had to do.
        Senator Boozman. A criticism of EPA during the previous
    Administration, in fact I would say Administrations in general,
    was the Agency's disconnect with rural America. Many
    hardworking Americans in rural States felt they did not have a
    voice with past Administrations and that their opinions did not
    matter.
        If confirmed, what would you do to facilitate a stronger
    level of trust between EPA and rural America?
        Mr. Wheeler. I have an absolute respect for rural America.
    In my first year working for Senator Inhofe, I went out to
    Oklahoma and put 1,000 miles on a rental car driving all over
    the State and a lot of small communities. I understand the
    problems they face.
        I understand the need for EPA to work with the States,
    through the regions with the States and the local communities
    to make sure everyone understands what the environmental
    priorities are, what the environmental requirements are, and to
    work with people to make sure we can have a clean and safe
    environment, protect the public health and environment, and
    have job security and economic growth.
        Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Boozman.
        Senator Merkley.
        Senator Merkley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Wheeler, you noted that your client, Murray Energy,
    showed you a 3-page plan on how to dramatically change the EPA.
    At the time you saw that plan, were you already a nominee for
    this position?
        Mr. Wheeler. No, I was not.
        Senator Merkley. Did the client express interest that he
    hoped you would be able to help advance that plan?
        Mr. Wheeler. No.
        Senator Merkley. Why did your client show you that plan?
        Mr. Wheeler. This was back in either December or January,
    almost a year ago.
        Senator Merkley. Was it in the interest of having your help
    to promote it?
        Mr. Wheeler. No, it was just to look at it, to see what
    they had put together.
        Senator Merkley. Ms. White, you said ``There is no
    environmental crisis. In fact, there is almost no environmental
    problem.'' Do you still believe that?
        Ms. White. I would not put it that way.
        Senator Merkley. You did put it that way. Do you still
    agree with that statement you made previously?
        Ms. White. I would qualify it. That is not what I intended
    to say.
        Senator Merkley. What do you consider to be the top three
    environmental problems?
        Ms. White. Air quality, and I think a very current one,
    increasing risk from failing wastewater or drinking water
    treatment infrastructure, and I would say for the importance of
    an issue, climate change.
        Senator Merkley. You are telling us today that you believe
    that air quality is an issue even though you previously said
    you don't think particulates are a problem and that the ozone
    problem is solved?
        Ms. White. I don't know from what documents you are finding
    those statements but they may be out of context. I said or have
    intended to say, talking about the very significant improvement
    and the positive trends.
        Senator Merkley. You do believe that lead and arsenic in
    the water, mercury in the air, particulates in the area are
    significant problems that need to be improved?
        Ms. White. At certain exposures.
        Senator Merkley. But currently, there is pollution that
    needs to be reduced?
        Ms. White. Again, given that I have not been inside.
        Senator Merkley. No, no, you are an expert on air quality.
    Do you believe there is air around the country that has
    pollutants that need to be reduced?
        Ms. White. There are certain areas.
        Senator Merkley. Particulates, fine particulates, do you
    believe that?
        Ms. White. Different pollutants implicated in different
    places.
        Senator Merkley. Fine particulates, do you believe they
    need to be reduced?
        Ms. White. At certain exposures.
        Senator Merkley. Coral reefs around the world are dying. Do
    you consider that an environmental problem?
        Ms. White. If they were.
        Senator Merkley. You said if they were?
        Ms. White. If they were, I have no knowledge of those
    issues. I know it is an issue, but I have no specific
    knowledge.
        Senator Merkley. Of course, you are not a scuba diver, you
    haven't gone to the coral reefs yourself, but you are asking us
    to confirm you for an environmental position. When we talked in
    the office, I raised the issue of coral reefs, and you said,
    ``I am not a scientist.'' You are not a doctor either, but you
    go to the doctor, right?
        Ms. White. Right.
        Senator Merkley. Scientists are telling us coral reefs are
    dying, and you say, if it is happening. Don't you believe it is
    happening based on the reports from around the world?
        Ms. White. I would need to read some statement of that
    science.
        Senator Merkley. Are you familiar with the dramatic drop in
    ice in the Arctic and the impacts on the environment there?
        Ms. White. Yes.
        Senator Merkley. In that case, you do believe what
    scientists are reporting?
        Ms. White. No.
        Senator Merkley. You do not believe what scientists are
    reporting?
        Ms. White. I need to study and learn and look at that. It
    is from multiple science.
        Senator Merkley. Do you believe the scientists when they
    talk about the melting permafrost?
        Ms. White. Yes, but I would like to finish my sentence. I
    am aware of the shrinking ice sheet in the Arctic, but the
    expanding ice sheet in the Antarctic.
        Senator Merkley. Are you familiar with the Red Zone?
        Ms. White. Red Zone?
        Senator Merkley. Red Zone of dying trees?
        Ms. White. Off coast, right.
        Senator Merkley. Yes, dying because pine beetles are doing
    so much better in warm winters. When you say those who are
    concerned about global warming are paganists, totalitarianists,
    and Marxists, do you believe Oregon's farmers who are concerned
    about three worst ever droughts with the impact of climate
    changes are Marxists or totalitarians or pagans?
        Ms. White. I believe those words, Senator, with all due
    respect, have been taken out of context.
        Senator Merkley. They are words directly from your
    writings. How about Oregon's timber workers who are very
    concerned about the pine beetles killing the forests? Are they
    pagans because they see the impact of climate change destroying
    the forests?
        Ms. White. To answer yes or no, no.
        Senator Merkley. No, you don't. Why did you say these
    things then? It is not just one quote; it is multiple quotes
    calling environmentalists Marxists and those concerned about
    climate change as pagans?
        Ms. White. I think I submitted about 100 pages of either
    commentaries or research studies I have done in that entire
    purpose. There may be some mistakes.
        Senator Merkley. Here is my summary. Do you believe the
    planet is getting warmer?
        Ms. White. Yes.
        Senator Merkley. Because it can be measured. Do you believe
    carbon dioxide levels have gone up dramatically? It can be
    measured. Scientists measure it every day.
        Ms. White. No, I would not say they have gone up
    drastically. I know they have risen from pre-industrial times.
        Senator Merkley. They went up from 295 ppm to over 408 ppm,
    and the rate of pollution has gone up from 1 ppm per year to 3
    ppm or nearly 2.5 to 3 ppm per year. You are unfamiliar with
    the details of that?
        Ms. White. No, I am familiar with those.
        Senator Merkley. I have a chart behind me.
        Senator Barrasso. We are going to have a second round, and
    your time has expired.
        Senator Merkley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will come to
    those.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
        We will head to the second round of questions.
        Mr. Wheeler, before your time on Capitol Hill, I know you
    spent time working at the EPA as a career official. This fact
    caught the attention of my friend, Senator Carper, who said in
    a recent interview about you, ``I think having worked in the
    agency, he actually cares about the environment, the air we
    breathe, the water we drink, and the planet on which we live.''
        Can you talk a bit about how your time as a career official
    with the agency would shape your leadership style as deputy
    administrator at the EPA?
        Mr. Wheeler. I would say my time at the agency, having
    worked with the career employees there, plus my legislative
    time here on how laws are drafted, and then my time over the
    last 8 years on how they are implemented, has really helped me
    understand a better, full picture.
        I was very pleased with the work I did at the Agency. I
    worked on the Toxics Release Inventory and the Right to Know
    law, I worked on expanding that. I worked on getting TSCA
    information out to the public. I won a few awards while I was
    at the agency.
        I understand the power of the data and information that the
    agency has and the importance of getting that out to the public
    for people to know about the chemicals released where they live
    and the impacts that could have on public health and the
    environment.
        I think the time I spent in the Right to Know Program at
    the agency was very formative in my development as an
    environmental attorney.
        Senator Barrasso. Ms. White, different Administrations
    obviously have different priorities for the CEQ. Could you talk
    a bit about what you and the Administration you hope to join
    see as the CEQ's role in formulating environmental policy?
        Ms. White. Given the two Acts passed not long ago, the
    highway bills, I always get the acronyms wrong, I recognize a
    real problem we have with the links of permit timeframes, the
    cost of environmental reviews, and impediments they present to
    urgently needed infrastructure.
        I think the infrastructure package, if you will, some of
    which has been created in new laws, some of which has been
    expressed in executive orders, most recently the mid-August
    executive order from President Trump about reducing permit
    timeframes with quite a bit of detail, this could well be a
    time, and I would welcome the challenge to make very
    significant changes in environmental review, mostly to shorten
    the process, reduce the cost and uncertainty, duplication and
    all those things.
        I think that is not a small task. Lots of people have tried
    to do similar things in different Administrations. It is really
    hard to change the way agencies operate to move the ball
    forward, but I think that would be very important and could be
    of historical importance.
        It takes 50 permits, 9 years, and $7 billion, and then the
    investors withdraw from the project. We are in trouble in this
    country if we cannot permit needed infrastructure in a timely
    manner.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
        Mr. Wheeler, during your over 25-year career, you have had
    an opportunity to work on environmental issues impacting lots
    of different areas of the country. Senator Boozman asked you
    about rural communities, and you talked about all the time
    driving around in rural areas.
        Can you talk a bit about how you will work to ensure that
    the EPA treats rural States, like my home State of Wyoming,
    fairly and equitably when developing and enforcing
    environmental policies?
        Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely. First, I would say everyone I met
    in rural areas of our country cared deeply about the
    environment where they live. In fact, they are some of the best
    stewards of the environment we have.
        Again, working with Administrator Pruitt on his cooperative
    federalism, working with the States, working with the local
    governments, I think is vital to going forward and making sure
    that everyone understands the need to protect the environment
    and what are the requirements from the EPA so we can work
    together.
        Senator Barrasso. Senator Merkley.
        Senator Merkley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Ms. White, I was about to show you a chart which I will
    show you now. That chart shows the information that has come
    from the fourth National Climate Assessment put forward by the
    Trump administration, by the combined work of the EPA, NOAA,
    the Department of Energy, and several other agencies within the
    Government.
        It shows their estimate of the best work of their
    scientists of the impact of human activity versus natural
    activity on climate change or climate disruption. Can you see
    that OK?
        Ms. White. Yes.
        Senator Merkley. The first red column is a human caused
    impact from the Trump administration's EPA and fellow agency
    report, solar flare activity which is often raised, and
    volcanic activity, which is often raised. Which of these bars,
    the red, orange, or the green, is the highest?
        Ms. White. Obviously, the red.
        Senator Merkley. The red, the human caused activity. Is it
    dramatically different from the impact of solar caused
    activity?
        Ms. White. Could you briefly summarize what methodology was
    used to measure that increment of human activity?
        Senator Merkley. Yes, I can, but as an expert on the
    atmosphere, I would think you actually have a better command of
    that. The scientists looked at the carbon dioxide and its
    impact on raising temperatures and how much was created by
    volcanic activity or how much temperature indirectly was caused
    by solar activity, solar flares, and so forth, and then human
    activity.
        The primary function, there are some other global warming
    gases, and I am sure you are familiar, but the primary activity
    is the burning of fossil fuels and the production of carbon
    dioxide. Is there a dramatic difference between the human
    caused impact and the solar impact?
        Ms. White. Yes.
        Senator Merkley. I know you said before you are not a
    scientist, but this is the Trump administration's report. Do
    you accept the results of this report?
        Ms. White. I view this report really as the product of the
    past Administration and not of the present. It was, I think, up
    for a certain draft of it before.
        Senator Merkley. When you told me that you would look to
    the scientists for insight and the scientists produced these
    numbers, you are now rejecting them?
        Ms. White. There are all different types. There are many
    differences, a credible difference of opinion among climate
    scientists.
        Senator Merkley. This is the combined work of the
    Administration released by the Trump administration that you
    are asking to work for, but you are rejecting their findings?
        Ms. White. I think we need more of a precise explanation of
    the role of the human contribution.
        Senator Merkley. Mr. Wheeler, how about you? Do you reject
    the findings of the Trump administration scientists?
        Mr. Wheeler. No, I do not reject it, Senator. I believe,
    though, the report issued on Friday was put out for notice and
    comment. I would not want to prejudge anything. I agree with
    you that the red bar is much higher than the other two.
        Senator Merkley. Does that generally reflect your
    understanding of the impact of human activity versus solar or
    volcanic activity?
        Mr. Wheeler. Looking at this chart, it appears that human
    causes is much greater. Again, I don't want to go too much into
    the report since it is open for notice and comment at this
    point.
        Senator Merkley. Does that generally reflect your
    viewpoint, or is this radically different than your viewpoint?
        Mr. Wheeler. I would have to look at the information.
        Senator Merkley. I know but I am asking about your
    viewpoint. Do you believe human activity is driving the
    temperature increases on the planet?
        Mr. Wheeler. I believe man has an impact on the climate,
    but what is not completely understood is what the impact is.
        Senator Merkley. You don't accept, if you will, the general
    finding of the Trump administration scientists that it is
    dramatically more the impact of human activity than solar or
    volcanic activity? You are not sure of that?
        Mr. Wheeler. I have not read the report yet. Since it is
    open for notice and comment at this point, I don't think I
    should comment.
        Senator Merkley. No, there are many other sources for this
    information.
        Mr. Wheeler, you have been working as a lobbyist for a
    company, for a private company?
        Mr. Wheeler. A number of different companies.
        Senator Merkley. Yes, sir, but significant activity on
    behalf of the coal industry. You were shown the secret 3-page
    plan on how to destroy the EPA when you were lobbying for them.
        When candidate Trump said he was going to drain the swamp,
    did he mean to take the lobbyists and put them in charge of
    policy? Is that what he meant by ``drain the swamp''?
        Mr. Wheeler. First of all, I believe there are a number of
    lobbyists that worked in the Obama administration.
        Senator Merkley. I am not asking about the Obama
    administration; I am asking about candidate Trump's argument
    that he is going to ``drain the swamp'' and get rid of the
    powerful special interests and the lobbyists running things. Is
    that what you think he meant by that? Or what did he mean by
    that?
        Mr. Wheeler. I am not sure what he meant by that.
        Senator Merkley. My time is up but I do think there is
    quite a contrast in that. I do think when the Trump
    administration's scientists put out this information, boy, it
    bears paying attention to it.
        Ms. White, you said you are going to look to what the
    scientists say. This is what they say, and yet you reject it. I
    don't see how that makes you possibly qualified to serve in
    this capacity.
        Thank you.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Merkley.
        I would point out for the record, a story dated November 2,
    2017, an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal under the headline, A
    Deceptive New Report on Climate. This is by Dr. Steven E.
    Koonin who had served as the Under Secretary of Energy for
    Science in the Obama administration.
        He goes on in his op-ed to report, ``The world's response
    to climate changing under natural and human influences is best
    founded upon a complete portrayal of the science. The U.S.
    Government's Climate Science Special Report does not provide
    that foundation.'' Instead, he goes on to say, ``It reinforces
    alarm with incomplete information and highlights the need for
    more rigorous review of climate assessments.''
        I would ask unanimous consent that this be entered in the
    record. Without objection, it is done so.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Senator Capito.
        Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I would like to thank both our witnesses today.
        Ms. White, I will start with you. Let me start by
    apologizing in not getting here earlier. I was over on Commerce
    where we were having another hearing, so I did not get to hear
    your statement and the questions. If this has been asked
    before, I apologize.
        We have had, over the last several years, particularly
    during the last Administration, a real battle between State
    regulators and the EPA and the policies emanating from the
    White House with a lot of our State regulators suing in court,
    adding comments to potential court decisions in opposition to
    the direction the Administration was going, some successful,
    some not. Then somewhere the State regulators would be invited
    in to help craft a decision and then basically being ignored
    when they would weigh in.
        Where do you see the cooperation between the State and what
    your office of Environmental Quality would do and how you might
    be able to bridge some of those bridges that have been burned
    over the last several years?
        Ms. White. As I understand it, CEQ has been used as an
    entity that can convene local agencies, State agencies, and
    Federal agencies and try to coordinate and resolve conflict. I
    actually think that process, which CEQ has used, I don't know
    whether it has ever been done on a State-Federal authority
    issue, but I think there has been some meaningful use of the
    convening story of CEQ.
        On the other hand, we are still at the beginning of this
    Administration, challenging decisions from the last
    Administration which some construe as maybe assisting the
    agency in reforming the agenda.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Mr. Wheeler, I was very pleased to see that the EPA
    announced their hearings on the Clean Power Plan. I think one
    of the first, if not the first, meeting is to be convened in
    Charleston, West Virginia, my hometown and obviously in the
    heart of coal country in the State of West Virginia and that
    region.
        For the last years, from this dais, I have asked that our
    voices be heard at the EPA. The last time they went around the
    country, the closest we could get them was Pittsburgh, but they
    could go to San Francisco, Boston, Chicago, and cities that
    might not be quite so friendly or have the same voice.
        I would like to ask you, in the position you would assume
    at EPA, to keep all voices at the table. I would not advocate
    that you only come to coal country to talk about coal. You have
    to go everywhere.
        I would say to Administrator Pruitt, thank you for that,
    for being willing to come and listen. It is going to be a
    rollicking hearing, I can tell you that. I would like to know
    your perspective on that because I know you have done some work
    in the coal area and how you perceive that.
        Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Senator.
        As you know, my family is from West Virginia. I go there
    every year, so if you would like me to come to West Virginia, I
    will be there next June, the third weekend in June, I know for
    sure.
        I think it is important for EPA to get out and meet with
    the people, particularly those they are regulating. I am glad
    one of the first meetings will be in Charleston, West Virginia.
    I think it is a sign that Administrator Pruitt means what he
    says when he wants to work with the States and the communities.
    I look forward to working with him going forward.
        Thank you.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Let me ask you this. I know you are familiar with the
    bureaucracies. I noticed in your statement, in terms of EPA,
    that you did take some time to appreciate the long term service
    of many people in EPA and many of the hard workers. I think we
    have a tendency to think all the bureaucrats are just running
    amok.
        How do you see that in terms of EPA, in terms of the power
    more bureaucratic people have over the political winds that
    change every 8 years, or how do you bridge that gap?
        Mr. Wheeler. I do think the career employees at the agency
    are very dedicated. I think you go to work at the EPA because
    you are concerned about the environment. I applaud them for
    their work and what they have done.
        My criticisms in the past have been directed at some of the
    political people at the agency and not the career people. I am
    looking forward to returning to the agency to work with them
    again.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Capito.
        Senator Carper.
        Senator Carper. Mr. Wheeler, I spent a little time in the
    Boy Scouts, raised a couple of boys, as the Chairman said here,
    who became Eagles and learned a lot from it. When I was a Scout
    growing up in Virginia, we would go on camping trips. We took
    our own sons and their Scout troop on any number of those over
    the years.
        I have here the Scout laws. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal,
    helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful,
    thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. I don't know you well
    enough to know if you measure up on all of those. I would like
    to think I do and my colleagues and I do. I hope we do, but it
    is a high standard to set.
        One of the things we always tried to teach our Scouts was
    that we had an obligation to this planet. It was given to us by
    God. We are its stewards, and we have a moral obligation to
    turn it over from one generation to the next in as good shape
    or maybe better shape. How do you feel about that?
        Mr. Wheeler. I completely agree with you, sir. I was saying
    them, while you were saying them, quietly to myself. I try to
    live up to those ideals of scouting every day of my life. I
    agree with you that we have a responsibility in the stewardship
    of the planet to leave it in better shape than we found it for
    our children, grandchildren, and nephews.
        Senator Carper. It is possible to actually make the
    actually make the air and water cleaner, preserve our natural
    resources, and do so in a way that does not diminish jobs or
    employment but actually enhances it. You know how much I loved
    George Voinovich and his bride. We were Governors together and
    Senators here for many years.
        Now the Republican banner on the Diesel Emissions Reduction
    Act is carried by Senator Inhofe. I will never forget the day
    George Voinovich came to me and said, we have all these diesel
    emissions. The great thing about diesel engines is they last a
    long time; the bad thing is they last a long time, and the
    older ones are terribly polluting.
        We can actually use American technology to clean up the
    emissions and do so in a cost effective way and get a lot of
    partners involved and not only create jobs but tens of
    thousands of jobs. We can also use American technology and
    export the technology across the world. I hold that out as an
    example of the way we ought to work and work together for the
    common good.
        I want to talk with Mr. Wheeler about EPA employees
    breaking the law. Ms. White served on the Texas Commission on
    Environmental Quality. The commission staff was told to under-
    report the levels of radiation in drinking water, violating the
    EPA's rules. She later defended these actions telling the
    reporter, ``We did not believe the science of health effects
    justified EPA setting the standard where they did.''
        I would just ask, Mr. Wheeler, do you agree it is
    appropriate or inappropriate to direct staff to violate Federal
    law, regulations, or reporting requirements?
        Mr. Wheeler. I am not sure where the quote came from and
    what Ms. White would say about that quote today. I do not think
    it is appropriate to direct staff to ignore laws, no.
        Senator Carper. In our personal meeting, you noted that you
    were once an EPA career official.
        Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
        Senator Carper. During your time there, you found the EPA
    career staff are dedicated employees who want to make a
    difference with their lives on behalf of other people on the
    planet on which we live. In materials you submitted for the
    record, you also stated, ``If I am confirmed, I hope to earn
    their respect.''
        My question is, do you agree that censoring, disregarding,
    or excluding career staff views would actually earn their
    respect? Would you describe some steps you plan to take, if you
    are confirmed, to improve the manner in which EPA career staff
    is respected in a way that shows them respect?
        Mr. Wheeler. I will turn to the career staff and ask their
    advice and listen to them. I think I have to best answer that
    question by saying they will see it in my daily actions, how I
    interact with them, and how I go forward with them.
        Senator Carper. I have one last one, if I can, Ms. White.
        In congressional testimony and articles, you have referred
    to EPA employees as ``Federal mandarins brandishing their
    scientific credentials''--as ``Federal mandarins brandishing
    their scientific credentials.'' Those words suggest you may not
    agree with Mr. Wheeler that EPA career staff are dedicated
    employees who want to make a difference in the environment.
        I always try to treat other people the way I want to be
    treated. What would cause you to describe people like Andy
    Wheeler, when he was working at the EPA, as a Federal mandarin
    brandishing scientific credentials? What would make you talk
    that way about him?
        Ms. White. A rather exaggerated way to reflect the anger
    that I see in people and the amount of power that Federal
    employees have garnered as opposed to all of you, our Congress,
    that is where that came from.
        Senator Carper. I am sorry, my time has expired. Thank you.
        Mr. Chairman, I have one last unanimous consent request to
    submit additional materials for the record pertaining to Ms.
    White's views on public health and the environment that would
    include a letter from 56 members of the House, parties to the
    nomination and a letter signed by many environmental
    organizations who also oppose her nomination. I ask unanimous
    consent.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Also, Carol Baker with the Texas Water
    Foundation, President and CEO, stated this: ``Ms. White is a
    committed public servant, has been a wonderful advocate on
    behalf of water issues for decades in her role as Chair of the
    Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, was a champion on
    natural resource issues and admired for her commitment and
    tenacity. She is very collaborative and always interested in
    listening to all the details on the issues and a great team
    leader. I highly recommend and support this very qualified
    candidate, Kathleen Hartnett White.''
        I ask unanimous consent that we introduce that.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Let us turn to Senator Inhofe.
        It seemed you were trying to answer something. If it is all
    right with Senator Inhofe, I would like to give you a chance to
    respond.
        Ms. White. Yes, I was. I understood his question was about
    an issue of naturally occurring radionuclides in soil and as
    characterized, that somehow, I or another CEQ employee was
    telling field staff don't show the extent of the problem; just
    mute it back a little bit. Evidently EPA was claiming that.
        This is one of these technical issues, about technical
    issues and interpretative guidance with EPA. I would never,
    ever tell staff to under-report health hazards. That is the
    only statement I wanted to make. Health hazards like this need
    to be addressed ASAP.
        Senator Barrasso. Senator Inhofe.
        Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Let me make one comment. Since all they want to talk about
    on the other side is global warming, it is kind of interesting.
    Someone pretty smart on the other side, back when they were
    talking, and their whole concept was the world is coming to an
    end, and it is due to anthropogenic gases. Do you remember
    that, Mr. Wheeler?
        Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir.
        Senator Inhofe. We heard it over and over again, but it did
    not sell. The people did not buy it, so they changed it and
    started using climate change. Climates always change. In fact,
    we voted unanimously that everyone agrees that climate has
    always and always will change. In all the historical,
    scientific, and scriptural evidence, that is a fact.
        That gives the opportunity to say anyone who does not
    believe the world is coming to an end because of global warming
    does not believe that climate changes. Very clever. I don't
    have any reason for saying that but somebody has to say it.
        Besides that, when they talk about all the scientific
    evidence, Richard Lindzen is a good example. Richard Lindzen
    with MIT is recognized as one of the top scientists in the
    country on this and other subjects.
        I don't have the whole quote written down, but I think I
    have it memorized. He said, ``Regulating carbon is a
    bureaucrat's dream. If you regulate carbon, you regulate
    life.'' Have you ever heard that quote, Mr. Wheeler?
        Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir, I have heard you say that many
    times.
        Senator Inhofe. I would also like to have you address one
    other thing. There is this idea out there that somehow in
    taking care of your own land, for example, that the Government
    needs to do it for you.
        You might recall that during the past Administration--I
    don't remember his name but I had asked him to come out and
    talk to our farmers in Oklahoma to determine whether or not he
    really thinks we need to have them looking after the
    environment on their own property. They came back with a
    report. This came from several places in Oklahoma that they had
    never seen such enthusiastic support by the owners of the land
    that was far greater than anything they had ever heard from the
    bureaucracy. Do you remember that?
        Mr. Wheeler. I do, sir, yes.
        Senator Inhofe. I think that is really worth talking about.
        I know we are kind of coming to a close, but the other side
    of the dais has been focusing on your writings, Ms. White, as a
    private citizen and have been furthering the myth that you have
    helped polluters get away from polluting while at the Texas
    Commission CEQ.
        I want to show them that while you were at the Texas
    Commission CEQ, the Texas air quality dramatically improved.
    What role did you play in that result?
        Ms. White. As the chairman, it all circled around the State
    implementation plan that states, those who have non-attainment
    areas must submit to EPA. Like a lot of Government documents,
    it is not 10 pages; it is six volumes and thousands of pages.
        I was the chairman, so that was the most important issue in
    the entire agency. I think you could generally say I was
    directing the team that was developing the full State
    implementation plan which is, like I said, a huge document with
    reams of things people might call science or technical
    analysis, control measures and all kinds of things.
        It was through really implementing that plan that the
    dramatic reduction, not just in ozone which is not a directly
    emitted pollutant, but also other pollutants that as a result
    of the measures addressing ozone, we had beneficial impact on
    other pollutants.
        Senator Inhofe. The bottom line is, in looking at this, you
    have been very successful in accomplishing those things for the
    Texas CEQ.
        Ms. White. Yes.
        Senator Inhofe. Is there any reason you believe you would
    not be equally successful in performing some of those results?
        Ms. White. No. That is why I would be so delighted were I
    nominated to take on this job at CEQ within a different
    framework than a regulatory agency but lots of the same issues.
        Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Ms. White.
        Senator Barrasso. Senator Whitehouse.
        Senator Whitehouse. Mr. Wheeler, there has been a recent
    request by Secretary Perry to the Federal Energy Regulatory
    Commission to provide certain regulatory favors, to provide
    regulatory priority to, among other things, coal plants.
        To your knowledge, was either Mr. Murray or Murray Energy
    involved in making a recommendation of any kind to Secretary
    Perry on that subject? Were you personally involved in any way
    in any activities that led up to Secretary Perry's request to
    the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission?
        Mr. Wheeler. Certainly, Murray Energy has been supportive
    of that effort. I did attend a meeting with Murray Energy at
    the Department of Energy where this was discussed months ago,
    but I de-registered in August. I have not been involved in
    anything over the last few months on this issue. This issue has
    been front and center.
        Senator Whitehouse. Was your participation in the
    preparation for the Perry request, if we call it that, is that
    a fair enough description? Do you know what I am talking about
    if I say the Perry request?
        Mr. Wheeler. I think I know what you mean. I did not work
    on putting that together. As I said, I was in a meeting at the
    Department of Energy.
        Senator Whitehouse. Was that the limit of your
    participation in that, to attend one meeting at the Department
    of Energy?
        Mr. Wheeler. I also believe I attended one Hill meeting on
    that as well.
        Senator Whitehouse. One meeting on the Hill, one meeting at
    the Department of Energy, and nothing further, no memos that
    you authored, no paper trail, nothing else?
        Mr. Wheeler. No, sir.
        Senator Whitehouse. Ms. Hartnett White, I went down to
    Texas. I go to a lot of States to try to figure out what is
    going on there in terms of climate change. I had a scientific
    panel with scientists from the University of Texas at Austin;
    from Texas Tech, and Katherine Hayhoe, who I am still somewhat
    in touch with, who is by the way, not pagan, she is
    evangelical; Texas A&M, the Aggies, were present; and Rice
    University.
        They said that Texas was in harm's way from climate change
    on a whole variety of fronts, including sea level rise along
    the coastline and so forth. They were pretty much in unanimous
    agreement with each other about what was going on.
        They also said they were unaware of any support in their
    universities for some counter-science in which this isn't
    really happening.
        Have you been in touch with any of those universities about
    climate change and about what it means for Texas? Is there any
    record of your contact with those universities?
        Ms. White. I don't know whether there would be any records,
    but over the years, attending a conference or a panel or that
    sort of thing.
        Senator Whitehouse. Do you know how much of the excess heat
    that has been captured by greenhouse gas emissions has been
    absorbed by the oceans, roughly, say to the nearest 10 percent?
        Ms. White. I do not have numbers like that.
        Senator Whitehouse. Even to the nearest 10 percent? Do you
    know if it is more than 50 percent or less than 50 percent?
        Ms. White. I am sorry, but could you ask the question one
    more time?
        Senator Whitehouse. Of the additional heat that has been
    captured in the atmosphere as a result of greenhouse gas
    emissions, do you know how much of that excess has been
    captured in the ocean? Is it more or less than 50 percent? Do
    you even know that?
        Ms. White. No.
        Senator Whitehouse. No. OK.
        Ms. White. But I believe there are differences of opinions
    on that, but there is not one right answer.
        Senator Whitehouse. Really? Do you think there is actual
    serious difference of opinion whether it is below 50 percent?
        Ms. White. Unless I am mistaken, yes.
        Senator Whitehouse. You think there is serious difference
    of opinions as to how much of that has been captured by the
    ocean? You think there is serious scientific opinion that it is
    below 50 percent?
        Ms. White. Yes, unless I am mistaken. Yes.
        Senator Whitehouse. OK, wow. Do you think if the ocean
    warms, it expands? Does the law of thermal expansion apply to
    sea water?
        Ms. White. Again, I do not have any kind of expertise or
    even much layman study of the ocean dynamics and climate change
    issues.
        Senator Whitehouse. Just enough to know that you think
    there is not science that establishes clearly how much of the
    heat has been taken up by the oceans? You knew that, right? You
    said you knew that.
        My time has expired. I am sorry. I hear the gavel knocking.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse.
        Senator Sullivan.
        Senator Carper. Could I ask for one unanimous consent
    before Senator Sullivan?
        Senator Barrasso. Yes.
        Senator Carper. I would submit for the record statements
    Ms. White made in February of this year on a panel hosted by
    the CO2 Coalition, an organization that promotes misinformation
    about climate change.
        The Coalition claims ``Climate policies deprive mankind of
    the benefits of carbon dioxide.'' Ms. White stated the CO2
    Coalition is ``a very, very meaningful source.''
        Thanks very much.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Brandy Marty Marquez, a commissioner of
    the Public Utility Commission of Texas, has written in support
    of Ms. White's nomination. Ms. Marquez has said ``Ms. White
    brings a wealth of environmental regulatory experience and her
    record reflects her commitment to genuine environmental
    protection.''
        I ask unanimous consent as well that this be entered in the
    record. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Senator Sullivan.
        Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I appreciate the witnesses being here and your willingness
    to serve.
        Mr. Wheeler, I appreciated your highlighting some of
    Administrator Pruitt's testimony during his confirmation
    hearing about we are a nation of laws, the rule of law, and
    cooperative federalism. I think those are all very important
    issues. I want to kind of drill down on those a bit today.
        I think it is also important to recognize. Sometimes you do
    not always get it from this Committee, but we all are very
    focused on clean water and clean air. My State of Alaska and my
    hometown of Anchorage has some of the cleanest water and gets
    awards. My State has the most pristine, beautiful, and
    incredible environment probably in the world. We care about it
    deeply.
        We also care about the rule of law. To be perfectly blunt,
    I think the last Administrator in the previous Administration
    was not that concerned about the rule of law. Let me give you a
    quote from the previous Administration.
        A senior official once stated of a major EPA rule on the
    eve of a big Supreme Court case that when asked whether you
    think you are going to win or lose in the Supreme Court on this
    rule they promulgated, this individual said, it didn't matter
    if it was unlawful because the rule was finalized 3 years ago,
    and ``most of the covered parties are already in compliance and
    investments have been made.''
        Does that sound like the attitude of somebody or an agency
    that cares about the rule of law?
        Mr. Wheeler. No, it does not, sir.
        Senator Sullivan. That was Gina McCarthy. That was one of
    numerous, numerous occasions where she and her team ignored the
    rule of law. In one of her hearings, I called her running a
    lawless agency because they did this all the time.
        The Clean Power Plan gets a lot of play in the press. Do
    you have any idea why the U.S. Supreme Court put a stay on the
    Clean Power Plan, the first time in U.S. Supreme Court history
    that they had done that to a rule from a Federal agency that
    had not been looked at by a lower court? Do you have any sense
    of why the Supreme Court did that?
        Mr. Wheeler. It is my understanding the Supreme Court, as
    you said it was the first time for an environmental statute,
    but the only time they would issue a stay like that would be if
    they thought the proponents would prevail on the arguments.
        Senator Sullivan. I think the Supreme Court saw it as a
    quote from the EPA Administrator who said, look, we don't care.
    Investments have been made. These poor idiot Americans who
    complied with it, too bad. I think the Supreme Court was
    saying, that is not the rule of law.
        I need from you a commitment that you won't do that,
    whether you like a policy or not. If the Congress of the United
    States does not give you, as the Federal agency, the authority
    to undertake some kind of action, will you commit to this
    Committee that you won't undertake that kind of action?
        Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely, sir.
        Senator Sullivan. Do you need statutory authority to
    undertake rules and regulations that derive from this body?
        Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely. From my time working at EPA and my
    time working here, I understand where the laws are made and
    whose job it is to implement them. It is not the duty of the
    EPA to write the laws.
        Senator Sullivan. OK. We would hope you and Administrator
    Pruitt would never make a statement such as that by Gina
    McCarthy which showed complete disrespect for the rule of law
    and really for the Congress, in my view. Can I get your
    commitment on that?
        Mr. Wheeler. Absolutely, sir, yes.
        Senator Sullivan. Let me ask about another issue. You and I
    have talked about this. It relates to an issue back in my State
    that we worked on in a bipartisan way on this Committee in the
    last Congress. Chairman Inhofe, Senator Boxer, I and others
    worked on a challenge we have with regard to water and sewer
    infrastructure.
        There was a lot of talk about aging infrastructure during
    the Flint, Michigan, crisis. I was trying to raise the fact
    that there are communities in America which have no
    infrastructure, not just aging infrastructure.
        In my State, Alaska has over 30 communities where people do
    not have water and sewer, where they do not have flushing
    toilets. These are American citizens. We worked in a bipartisan
    way to address that.
        I was very disappointed to see the Trump administration did
    not fund that because no American citizen should live in a
    community where you do not have a flushing toilet. We have what
    is called honey buckets where you have to take raw sewage out
    to a lagoon. We have rates of diseases in some of these
    communities that are higher, like in third world countries.
        This is a program that passed the Congress on a bipartisan
    basis as part of the WIIN Act. Can get your commitment, if we
    get the appropriate funding, that the EPA, at the highest
    levels, will be committed 110 percent to addressing what is
    really a travesty? It is not just in Alaska; there are a few
    other States that have this problem, but this problem mostly
    resides in my State. We talked about it when you and I met. Can
    I get your commitment on that as well?
        Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir. I will even go as far as to say 120
    percent.
        Senator Sullivan. Great. I appreciate that.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Sullivan.
        Senator Duckworth.
        Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Chairman Barrasso.
        Ms. Hartnett White, thank you for coming to my office for
    our meeting. I appreciate the time.
        During our meeting, you stated you do not have ties to the
    oil industry. It has been a long time for the renewable fuel
    standards and other environmental programs which I, and many of
    my constituents, support.
        In fact, when I did a bit more research, I found that you
    reportedly actually own several oil leases, one of which is
    leased to CVR Refining. CVR Refining is owned by Carl Icahn who
    recently resigned from his role as advisor to President Trump
    amid very well publicized concerns that he used his position in
    the Administration to influence a proposal to change the point
    of obligation under the RFS. This change would benefit Mr.
    Icahn's own financial interests. I have called on the FBI to
    investigate this very clear violation of conflict of interest
    laws.
        Let me ask, have you ever spoken to Carl Icahn regarding
    the RFS?
        Ms. White. No, I have not.
        Senator Duckworth. Do you intend to sell any of your
    current leases, specifically the one leased to Carl Icahn's CVR
    Refining?
        Ms. White. I already assigned those mineral interests by
    gift to my nephew. I do not own any mineral interests. My
    great-grandfather, in several counties in Texas, had some
    modest royalty interests.
        Senator Duckworth. But you gained financially from leasing
    these interests to Mr. Icahn? You made money off it, right? You
    got a return by leasing the oil leases to CVR Refining?
        Ms. White. Like I said, these are de minimis royalty
    payments for royalties in some agricultural counties in Kansas
    that I do not own anymore. My nephew does.
        Senator Duckworth. When did that happen?
        Ms. White. I don't know; about 6 months ago or so.
        Senator Duckworth. When it became clear that you wanted
    this job?
        Ms. White. Yes.
        Senator Duckworth. You made money, but you told me you did
    not have any history.
        Ms. White. I don't own them.
        Senator Duckworth. Fairly recently.
        Ms. White. They are like oil leases where some months you
    get $30.
        Senator Duckworth. Thirty dollars is a lot of money to some
    families.
        Ms. White. I am sure it is.
        Senator Duckworth. During our meeting, in countless
    articles and talks you have given over the years, you
    repeatedly claim that ethanol reduces grain supply and
    increases the cost of food.
        As someone who relied on food stamps as a child and who
    represents thousands of farmers in my home State, I am deeply
    invested in ensuring access, affordability, and quality food is
    available to everyone in the country and around the world.
        Yes or no, are you aware that today ethanol production has
    increased to at least 15 billion gallons?
        Ms. White. I have.
        Senator Duckworth. And that the price of corn is lower than
    it was when the RFS was adopted and that food prices are
    actually in the longest decline since the 2009 recession?
        Ms. White. I very recently have had access, thanks to
    Senator Fischer; because of that, have had lots of information
    on that. I can say God bless productive U.S. agriculture; there
    is a lot of corn supply.
        Senator Duckworth. Since RFS has been installed, do you
    agree, yes or no, that even since then, food prices are not
    higher and that what you have said, in fact, has turned out to
    not be true, that food prices would be higher because of
    implementation of the RFS?
        Ms. White. If I understand your question, yes, you are
    right.
        Senator Duckworth. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask
    unanimous consent to submit for the record, materials relating
    to Ms. White's views that the Renewal Fuel Standard is
    unethical and should be repealed.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The referenced information is presented earlier in this
    hearing document.]
        Senator Duckworth. Thank you.
        I would also like to submit for the record a World Bank
    report that attributes changes in the price of food to the
    price of oil, not the RFS.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The referenced information was not received at time of
    print.]
        Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        In 2014, Ms. White, you wrote, ``Using a vitally needed
    global food grain such as corn for the transportation fuel
    known as ethanol literally takes food from the mouths of hungry
    millions.'' You reiterated this claim in your meeting with me.
        Can you give me an example of a case where food was
    literally taken from the mouths of millions and diverted to
    ethanol production?
        Ms. White. If you mean it literally.
        Senator Duckworth. You said literally. That was your choice
    of words.
        Ms. White. Then I was just wrong. I was searching for the
    word figuratively.
        Senator Duckworth. We agree that you were wrong on RFS. You
    actually wrote this, so I would assume you proofread your
    documents before they were published.
        Beyond bashing the RFS inaccurately, can you describe any
    work you have done individually to advocate for ending hunger
    because you seem to be very concerned about hunger and the RFS'
    potential effect on world hunger? What have you done to
    advocate for ending hunger?
        Ms. White. I have contributed donations. A lot of my work,
    I find, is really about human welfare.
        Senator Duckworth. Can you give me a concrete example of
    how you have worked to end hunger?
        Ms. White. I don't have a concrete example.
        Senator Duckworth. So this was a nonsense thing to say
    essentially? Over the years, you have made many outrageous
    statements that you are clearly trying to walk away from today.
    One thing is clear, you would not be the impartial counselor we
    need in this Administration and we would expect from our civil
    servants.
        I also would like to take my remaining time to clarify.
        Senator Barrasso. You have no remaining time.
        Senator Duckworth. I am so sorry. May I ask one final
    question?
        Senator Barrasso. Please go ahead.
        Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You are very
    indulgent.
        Can you clarify your answer to Senator Fischer? It sounded
    like you would not commit to following the law by ensuring the
    RFS goes to 2022 and that there are biofuel volumes. Of course,
    there are biofuel volume requirements beyond that date. Is that
    correct?
        Ms. White. I don't think that is quite correct.
        Senator Duckworth. So you are saying that you are committed
    to following the law to ensure the RFS goes through 2022? What
    I thought you said was that if the President wanted to renege
    on those, he could.
        Ms. White. No, I didn't.
        Senator Duckworth. Will you commit to opposing any attempts
    of the Administration to not adhere to the RFS through 2022?
        Ms. White. As I said, I would uphold the spirit and the
    letter of the law and that CEQ has no direct regulatory
    authority or even opinion that I think would carry any kind of
    legal weight.
        Senator Duckworth. Again, it is very simple. Yes or no, do
    you commit to ensuring that the RFS goes through 2022 by
    resisting, even by something as simple as publicly stating that
    you would oppose the Trump administration should they choose to
    try to go against the letter or the spirit of the law?
        Ms. White. I will repeat again that all law, not just the
    law that supports the Renewable Fuel Standard. I would uphold
    all law, the letter and the spirit.
        Senator Duckworth. I am going to hold you to that. Thank
    you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You have been very generous.
        Senator Barrasso. Senator Carper, closing thoughts?
        Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, I have one last unanimous
    request.
        Before I do that, Mr. Wheeler, I don't know if you were
    with me and maybe George Voinovich in a meeting we held in my
    office, 513 Hart, maybe 10 or 12 years ago. We met with a
    number of utility CEOs from all over the country.
        They had come to meet with us to talk about emissions from
    power plants. Our focus was sulfur dioxide emissions, nitrous
    oxide, mercury, and CO2. We talked about an hour.
        A fellow from a utility I think from the southern part of
    the country, sort of a curmudgeon of an old guy, at the end of
    the meeting, he said, Senator, here is what you need to do. You
    need to tell us what the rules are going to be, give us a
    reasonable amount of time, give us some flexibility, and get
    out of the way. That is what he said.
        I thought it was pretty good advice, and that is what we
    tried to follow when President Bush proposed Clear Skies. Lamar
    Alexander and I proposed a counter-response, Really Clear
    Skies. We got some pretty good advice that day.
        There have been some comments here today about the Clean
    Power Plan. My recollection is the last Administration took
    comments for not just a couple weeks or a couple of months but
    for the better part of half a year, more than half a year.
        They met with over 400 stakeholders from sea to shining
    sea, received and tried to respond, and I think they said they
    did respond to over 1 million comments. Eighty-seven percent of
    the comments they had on the proposal was actually supportive.
    They reviewed more than 1,200 scientific reports.
        When I hear that, I think of that meeting we had with those
    utility CEOs where they said, tell us what the rules are going
    to be, give us a reasonable amount of time, some flexibility,
    and get out of the way.
        We will see how it shakes out in the end. I did not want to
    let it go by without saying, I believe the folks who are
    actually doing the outreach try to do so in a thoughtful way
    and to try to respond to comments they heard.
        I want to thank you all for being here. I don't know if it
    has been a pleasure for you, but it has been an informative
    hearing. We are grateful you are here.
        I want to say what is this young man's name over your left
    shoulder? Luke, the force is with you. I want to say how old
    are you, Luke?
        Mr. Luke Wheeler. Ten.
        Senator Carper. I would never have brought my sons in here
    when they were 10. I am impressed with the way you have handled
    yourself today. When Mr. Wheeler was speaking, a couple of
    times I was watching you. I could barely see your lips moving
    when he spoke, from the mouth of babes.
        I have a unanimous consent request to submit materials for
    the record about the drinking water radiation matters and Ms.
    White's involvement in those, if I could. Thank you.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. I would also like to submit for the
    record a number of letters supporting both Ms. White and Mr.
    Wheeler, including a letter of support for Mr. Wheeler from the
    United Mine Workers of America. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The referenced information follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Members may submit other questions and
    follow up written questions for the record. They can do that by
    Monday, November 13, at noon. The nominees will please respond
    to those questions by Monday, November 20, at noon.
        I want to thank the nominees and congratulate you both on
    your nomination.
        With that, this hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:39 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
        [Additional material submitted for the record follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]