[Senate Hearing 115-77]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 115-77
LEGISLATIVE HEARING ON S. 1514, THE HUNTING HERITAGE AND ENVIRONMENTAL
LEGACY PRESERVATION (HELP) FOR WILDLIFE ACT
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
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JULY 19, 2017
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Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
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COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming, Chairman
JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland
JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
ROGER WICKER, Mississippi SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
DEB FISCHER, Nebraska JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon
JERRY MORAN, Kansas KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, New York
MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
JONI ERNST, Iowa EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
RICHARD SHELBY, Alabama KAMALA HARRIS, California
Richard M. Russell, Majority Staff Director
Gabrielle Batkin, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
JULY 19, 2017
OPENING STATEMENTS
Barrasso, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Wyoming...... 1
Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware.. 66
WITNESSES
Nesvik, Brian, Chief Game Warden, Wyoming Game and Fish
Department..................................................... 69
Prepared statement........................................... 72
Responses to additional questions from Senator Barrasso...... 84
Crow, Jeff, Director, Arkansas Game and Fish Commission.......... 90
Prepared statement........................................... 92
Hall, Dale, CEO, Ducks Unlimited, and former Director, U.S. Fish
and Wildlife Service........................................... 97
Prepared statement........................................... 99
Responses to additional questions from Senator Wicker........ 106
Coble, Kim, Vice President, Environmental Protection and
Restoration, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation..................... 108
Prepared statement........................................... 110
Response to an additional question from Senator Barrasso..... 118
Vucetich, John, Ph.D., Associate Professor, School of Forest
Resources and Environmental Science, Michigan Technological
University..................................................... 197
Prepared statement........................................... 199
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL
S. 1514, the Hunting Heritage and Environmental Legacy
Preservation (HELP) for Wildlife Act........................... 235
An Open Letter to Members of Congress and the White House from
Scientists and Scholars on Federal Wolf Delisting and
Congressional Intervention on Individual Species in the Context
of the U.S. Endangered Species Act, July 18, 2017.............. 298
Letter to Senators Barrasso and Carper from The Humane Society of
the United States, July 24, 2017............................... 317
LEGISLATIVE HEARING ON S. 1514, THE HUNTING HERITAGE AND ENVIRONMENTAL
LEGACY PRESERVATION (HELP) FOR WILDLIFE ACT
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WEDNESDAY, JULY 19, 2017
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Environment and Public Works,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m. in
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John Barrasso
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Barrasso, Carper, Inhofe, Boozman,
Fischer, Moran, Rounds, Ernst, Cardin, Gillibrand, Booker, and
Harris.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING
Senator Barrasso. Good morning. I call this legislative
hearing to order.
Today we are here to talk about S. 1514, the Hunting
Heritage and Environmental Legacy Preservation for Wildlife
Act, HELP for Wildlife. The bill is comprehensive. It is
bipartisan, designed to enhance recreational hunting and sport
fishing activities, to ensure common sense environmental
regulation, and to protect wildlife and wildlife habitat.
I introduce this bipartisan bill along with Senators Cardin
and Capito and Klobuchar and Boozman and Baldwin. The bill has
been additionally cosponsored by Senators Enzi, King, and
Johnson. I thank them for working with me and crafting the
legislation that the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation
Partnership has called the strongest legislative package of
sportsmen's priorities in years.
The HELP for Wildlife Act does a number of things. First,
it protects wildlife and wildlife habitat across the country by
reauthorizing important environmental programs. Among others,
the bill reauthorizes until 2023 the North American Wetlands
Conservation Act, the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation
Act, the Neotropical Migratory Bird Conservation Act, the
Chesapeake Bay Program, and the Chesapeake Bay Gateways Grants
Assistance Program.
The bill also provides for enhanced recreational shooting
and sport fishing activities. The bill finalizes partnerships
among public agencies and other interested parties for
promoting fish conservation across the country that will create
new recreational sport fishing activities and opportunities.
The bill also ensures that lead tackle, which is widely
used by anglers, is not unnecessarily regulated under the Toxic
Substances Control Act, a position reaffirmed twice by the
Obama administration. The bill also promotes the building and
expansion of public target ranges for recreational shooting.
Finally, this bill ensures common sense environmental
regulation that protects species, as well as farmers and
ranchers. The bill prevents farmers from being held liable for
bird baiting for hunting purposes if they adhere to USDA and
State agriculture best practices.
The bill also prohibits judicial review of the final Obama
administration rule delisting the recovered gray wolf in
Wyoming that was reinstated by the U.S. Court of Appeals for
the District of Columbia on March 3rd of 2017 and republished
on May 1st of 2017. The bill also mandates the reissuance of
the final rule delisting the gray wolf in the western Great
Lakes, and it prohibits judicial review.
The HELP for Wildlife Act has garnered tremendous support
from the environmental and the sportsmen's communities. Over 50
different organizations have endorsed the HELP for Wildlife
Act, diverse groups such as Ducks Unlimited, which will be
testifying today; the National Wildlife Federation; Trout
Unlimited; the Chesapeake Bay Foundation; the Association of
Fish and Wildlife Agencies; the Choose Clean Water Coalition;
the American Sport Fishing Association; Boone & Crockett Club;
Safari Club International; the Congressional Sportsmen
Foundation; and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, just to name
a few.
Many groups in my home State of Wyoming have also submitted
written testimony in support of the bill, including the Wyoming
Association of Conservation Districts, the Wyoming Stock
Growers Association, the Wyoming Farm Bureaus Federation, the
Wyoming Wool Growers Association, and the Wyoming County
Commissioners Association. Former Democrat Governor Dave
Freudenthal, who I think e-mailed you yesterday, has also
submitted written testimony in support of the HELP for Wildlife
Act.
I ask that all their written testimonies be submitted for
the record.
[The referenced information follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. I will also note that my friend, Brian
Nesvik, Chief Game Warden with the Wyoming Game and Fish, is
testifying today in support of the bill. It is an honor. I had
the honor of spending time with Brian on several occasions in
2009, including Thanksgiving dinner. At the time, he was
deployed to Kuwait as the commander of the second of 300th
Field Artillery unit, which had the mission to running convoy
operations into Iraq in a very dangerous time. So thank you
very much, Brian, for coming to be with us today to testify.
Just as with the WILD Act and the Nuclear Energy Innovation
and Modernization Act, which both passed this Committee earlier
this year with strong bipartisan support, this bill is another
example of how we can work together, both Democrat and
Republican, to help protect the environment and grow the
economy. So I look forward to working with my colleagues on
moving this important legislation out of the Committee and pass
it to the Senate floor.
With that, I look forward to the testimony of our Ranking
Member for his opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE
Senator Carper. Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman.
To each of our witnesses, welcome.
Brian, what branch of the service were you in?
Mr. Nesvik. Senator, I am in the Army National Guard and
continue to serve today.
Senator Carper. Navy solutes Army. I am a retired Navy
captain. I appreciate you very much. I like to say different
uniforms; same team. So we are glad you are here.
Glad all of you are here.
We haven't seen Dale for about like 20 minutes, so it is
nice to see you again.
[Laughter.]
Senator Carper. This is double duty. Twice the citizen,
that is what you are.
Welcome, everybody.
We have considered, as you know, my colleagues know that
most of this legislation before, and I have supported different
iterations of sportsmen's bills over the years. I think most of
us have. I look forward to hearing from each of you. We look
forward to hearing from each of you about this year's bill, the
HELP for Wildlife Act.
I recognize the important role that sportsmen and other
outdoor enthusiasts play in our economies. We are blessed in
our State to have two beautiful, magnificent wildlife refuges
right along the Delaware Bay and one of the nation's newest
national parks. So this is something that is close to home for
us in Delaware.
According to the Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation,
Delaware has about 177,000 hunters. We only have 178,000
people.
[Laughter.]
Senator Carper. Actually, we have almost a million. And
anglers who spend $158 million annually and support almost
2,000 jobs. Almost 2,000 jobs. Many of these sportsmen and
sportswomen also invest their time and resources to promote
habitat conservation, in part through programs that will be
reauthorized through the HELP for Wildlife Act.
Hunting is only one form of wildlife related recreation. A
2011 Census study showed that more than 340,000 people enjoyed
wildlife related recreation in Delaware, and 71 percent of them
participated in wildlife watching specifically. Year after
year, people come to the First State to observe the federally
threatened red knot shorebirds which stop along the Delaware
Bay to refuel on horseshow crab eggs along their amazing 9,000
mile migratory journey.
As we consider the HELP for Wildlife Act, we must carefully
balance the different interests at play in wildlife
preservation and recreational activities across our country.
This careful balance is especially difficult to strike when it
comes to managing some of our nation's most charismatic
species, including the gray wolf.
As Ranking Member of this Committee, I have made clear my
firm commitment to ensuring that wildlife management decisions
are guided and driven by the best available science. The idea
of intervening in the current science based, publicly informed
species management process to legislatively delist a species
gives me great pause.
In the case of gray wolves, the Committee must consider the
strong support across our nation for wolf protection and the
critical role that wolves play in their ecosystems. We will
hear from witnesses today on both sides of this complex issue,
and I am especially interested in their perspectives on how
best to manage this special species.
I would be remiss if I did not mention the new provisions
in this bill to reauthorize the Chesapeake Bay program, the
Chesapeake Bay Initiative Act. Our champion here to my left, my
wingman on many issues involving Delmarva, Delmarva peninsula,
Del, Mar, and Buzz is probably out there somewhere in the
audience. I would be remiss if I did not mention the new
provisions in this year's bill to reauthorize the Chesapeake
Bay, and we should applaud Ben for his leadership in important
sections of the HELP Act for his leadership.
As part of the Chesapeake Bay watershed, Delaware takes its
responsibilities to contribute to the Chesapeake Bay's recovery
and sustainability very seriously. I am particularly interested
to hear what our witnesses have to say about how our Bay is
doing. The Committee needs a full understanding of the
Chesapeake Bay program role in assisting State efforts to
restore the Bay and the role that the Chesapeake Gateways and
Watertrails Network plays in advancing public understanding of
and support for the Chesapeake restoration.
Again, our thanks to all of you. We look forward to hearing
from you and for you to share your expertise with us. Bring it
on.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Senator
Carper.
We have a couple of members who have some guests today who
are testifying, so I would like to first give Senator Boozman
the opportunity to introduce Mr. Jeff Crow, who will be
testifying today.
Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
calling this important hearing. I would just like to take a
second to give a special thanks to Jeff, of Hot Springs County,
Arkansas, for coming here today and testifying.
Director Crow began his career with the Arkansas Game and
Fish Commission in 1986 and has been serving as Director since
2016. In 1996 he accepted a position with the Arkansas State
Police, where he had assignments in highway patrol, criminal
investigations, training, and SWAT. He retired from law
enforcement in 2011, after 25 years of service. In 2012 he
returned to the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission as a colonel
of the agency's Enforcement Division. In 2013 Jeff was promoted
to Deputy Director, and the following year he became the
agency's Chief of Staff.
Director Crow also served 25 years on active duty as a
member of the Reserves in the United States Marine Corps. A
combat veteran of Operation Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi
Freedom, he retired in 2007 at the rank of Sergeant Major.
I think you have done everything.
Director Crow holds an associate's degree in Criminal
Justice from National Park College, a bachelor's degree in
Organizational Management from John Brown University, and a
master's degree in Public Administration from Arkansas State
University. With all this experience, I cannot think of anyone
better to discuss why the HELP Act is great for the State of
Arkansas and this nation.
I would like to thank Director Crow for his service to the
State of Arkansas and to this country. We thank you for
agreeing to testify about this important legislation and look
forward to your testimony.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Boozman.
I would like to offer now an opportunity to Senator Cardin
to introduce Kim Coble, who is here to testify today.
Senator Cardin. Well, first of all, Mr. Chairman, thank you
for conducting this hearing. Thank you for your leadership on
this legislation.
I am pleased that Kim Coble could be with us today. Kim is
the Vice President for the Environmental Protection and
Restoration at the Chesapeake Bay Foundation. She started her
career at the Chesapeake Bay Foundation in 1992. We have been
working on the Bay for a long time, Mr. Chairman, and Kim has
been one of those key players as the senior scientist in the
Foundation's Virginia Office, Delmarva, the States of the
Chesapeake Bay region, which includes six States and the
District of Columbia.
In 2003 she was named the Chesapeake Bay Foundation's
Maryland Executive Director, where she directed policy and
management of a diverse team of scientists, land use
specialists, lawyers, grassroots coordinators, and volunteers
to protect and restore the Chesapeake Bay, and then in 2011 she
became the Foundation's Vice President of Environmental
Protection and Restoration.
Mr. Chairman, I think this Committee has heard me mention
many times how proud we are of the way that the Chesapeake Bay
restoration efforts were handled. It started at the grassroots,
the local levels with the State of Maryland, the State of
Pennsylvania, the State of Virginia, the State of Delaware. We
involved local governments and private sector, and the
Chesapeake Bay Foundation has been a critical part of that
team.
The reauthorization of the Chesapeake Bay program is a
critical factor for the Federal partnership in the program, but
the Bay efforts receive help from many different programs.
Several are being reauthorized by the legislation that you
introduced today. So it is a pleasure to have Kim with us today
to explain the importance of the Federal role for the
Chesapeake Bay.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much.
Thank you all for being here. I will alert the witnesses
that today there is a roll call vote sometime during this
Committee, so you may see some of us go and come back. Don't be
offended; we just apologize in advance. We are going to need to
vote and then come back.
So, with that, I look forward to hearing the testimony,
beginning with Brian Nesvik.
STATEMENT OF BRIAN NESVIK, CHIEF GAME WARDEN, WYOMING GAME AND
FISH DEPARTMENT
Mr. Nesvik. Well, good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking
Member Carper, and members of the Committee. I am glad to be
back with the Committee. It is absolutely an honor to discuss
these issues that are important to the citizens of my State and
across the nation, and I will do my best here today to meet the
Committee's needs on this particular piece of legislation.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to open by passing along the
sincere appreciation of the President of the Wyoming Game and
Fish Commission, Keith Culver. I spoke with Keith here in the
last couple of days, and he is today presiding over a Wyoming
Game and Fish Commission meeting in a town you are very
familiar with, Afton, Wyoming. They are actually discussing
some of the same issues that we will discuss here today. The
Commission did want to pass along, though, their appreciation
for yours and the Committee's work on wildlife type legislation
over the last several months.
Mr. Chairman, as you are keenly aware, Wyoming is home to a
rich and diverse wildlife resource that is valued by an equally
rich and diverse constituency. Much of the State's wildlife
habitats remain in pristine condition and continue to provide
wide open spaces and remote wild country for western iconic
species like sage-grouse, grizzly bears, moose, gray wolves,
pronghorn antelope, and elk. These resources directly affect
and influence the quality of life for Wyoming's citizens and
visitors from all over the globe.
As I analyzed the key provisions of this bill, two things
struck me about the overarching themes. First, there is a
reliance on the underlying trust and abilities of States to
make decisions regarding important issues affecting their
citizenry. Second, the bill places priority on, and provides
resources for, America's fish and wildlife resources and the
places that they live.
Wyoming citizens take very seriously their trust
responsibility for the management of all wildlife within its
borders. State leaders have invested significant resources and
inspired a conservation ethic in all of its endeavors.
Wyomingites pride themselves on balancing conservation with
economic development and maintaining a quality of life that
reflects their most deeply held western values. One of those
most important values is the reliance on State management of
those wildlife occupying habitats within the boundaries of the
State.
Section 8 of this Act and its provisions to preserve wolves
in a delisted status in Wyoming provides a mechanism to provide
the State with predictability and commitment; predictability,
the State will be able to focus on managing the gray wolf, and
commitment that as Wyoming maintains a healthy and viable
recovered gray wolf population, that it will be able to
continue its management uninterrupted.
The gray wolf population in our State has been recovered
since 2002, and the Service has now, on three occasions,
published a rule that definitively states wolves are recovered
and that Federal management is no longer needed. For over 15
years, Wyoming's citizens have been extremely patient while the
Service and the courts have wrestled with the status of a
recovered population of wildlife within Wyoming's borders. The
citizens of the State are ready for predictability and
commitments that ensure State management into the future, and
this bill provides that.
During the 2 years when Wyoming managed wolves under its
current Wolf Management Plan, its wolf population thrived and
remained far above recovery criteria. In fact, wolf populations
and the number of breeding pairs occupying suitable habitats
remained over 70 percent above the minimum requirements of the
ESA.
Because not all habitats are biologically and socially
suitable, there is a need to manage wolves and mitigate
conflicts between wolves and livestock and private property
owners. The State's track record is strong in its management of
these conflicts, and during the 2 years when Wyoming managed
the population, there were an average of 35 wolves removed by
our agency consequential to livestock damage each year. Last
year, under the authority of the Fish and Wildlife Service,
Federal managers removed at least 113 wolves in control actions
in response to livestock depredation.
As currently written, this Act reserves the responsibility
for the Service to relist Wyoming's gray wolf population if it
becomes threatened or endangered in the future. The ESA
mandates that the Service's evaluation of all potential
emerging threats or changing science and requires specific
actions if recovery is not maintained. Despite the facts that
the courts have been the lead in relisting species, they are
not required to relist species, and this bill does not inhibit
the responsibility of the Service to continue to oversee, for
the post-delisting monitoring period, the wolf population in
Wyoming.
In Idaho and Montana, where delisting was achieved through
congressional action, State management remains intact today,
and the 5-year post-delisting monitoring requirement of the ESA
has expired. Both States continue to manage a fully recovered
gray wolf population, and there no longer exists any Federal
oversight.
Germane to the core tenets of the ESA is its intent and
stated goal to recover and delist endangered species, and
again, the provisions of this bill in section 8 that provides
certainty to future management of Wyoming wolves is welcome.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I would also like to provide my
concise thoughts on other very important components of this
bill. As I stated earlier in my opening comments, this bill
provides a priority on the protection and enhancement of
wildlife habitats across America. The reauthorization of the
North American Wetland Conservation Act, also known as NAWCA,
is reflective of the priority Americans place on wildlife and
wild places.
In one project in our State, in the Upper Green River Basin
in Western Wyoming, NAWCA was used in a big way, for its
intended purpose. A $1 million NAWCA grant awarded to the
Wyoming Game and Fish in 2013 protected and enhanced over
16,000 acres of critical habitat in the Pacific Flyway,
benefiting wildlife and their habitats. Also important in that
is that partners were able to match Federal dollars by nearly
$3 million.
Mr. Chairman, there are several other provisions of this
bill where I offer additional perspective in my full written
testimony, and I look forward to answering yours and the
Committee's questions. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Nesvik follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much for your testimony,
Brian. Appreciate your being here.
Mr. Crow.
STATEMENT OF JEFF CROW, DIRECTOR,
ARKANSAS GAME AND FISH COMMISSION
Mr. Crow. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the
Committee. I am Jeff Crow, Director of the Arkansas Game and
Fish Commission.
Mr. Chairman, I ask for unanimous consent that my full
statement be made part of the record.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
Mr. Crow. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to
testify on behalf of the State of Arkansas supporting the
Hunting Heritage and Environmental Legacy Preservation for
Wildlife Act.
Arkansas' position as the nation's top producing rice
growing State, as well as its reputation as a premier waterfowl
hunting destination in the country, gives us a unique
perspective concerning proposed amendments to the Migratory
Bird Treaty Act. Waterfowl conservation is one of the more
successful examples of coordination between State and Federal
authorities.
It is this cooperation that has benefited wildlife in
Arkansas and the people that enjoy that wildlife resource.
Arkansas hunters consistently rank in the top three total duck
harvest annually and lead the nation in mallard harvest each
year. In a time when many States are experiencing declines in
hunting participation, Arkansas duck hunter numbers have grown
over the past decade, with approximately 100,000 individuals
duck hunting in Arkansas each year, including Arkansas
residents and visitors from all 50 States.
Outdoors related recreation generates more than $4.9
million daily in Arkansas. Waterfowl hunting in Arkansas
generated $236.7 million in retail sales, supported 4,706 jobs,
and provided $29.1 million and $23.9 million in State/local and
Federal tax revenue, respectively. These significant economic
contributions cannot be overlooked and provide much needed
economic stability for our State.
Arkansas is the largest rice growing State, producing half
the nation's rice. Arkansas grows rice on more than 1.2 million
acres each year from 40 counties. Arkansas rice contributes
over $4 billion annually to the State's economy and employs
more than 25,000 Arkansans.
It is no secret that rice fields and ducks go hand in hand,
but the amount of food available for migrating and wintering
waterfowl in rice fields has been on the decline for several
decades. Earlier harvests, more efficient harvesting, and fall
tillage result in little waste grain left when most ducks
arrive in mid-winter. The practice of encouraging a second or
``ratoon,'' crop of rice after harvest offers a viable tactic
to increase foraging value of rice fields to help waterfowl
meet food and energy demands required for migration, winter
survival, and breeding. Although traditionally practiced in the
Louisiana and Texas Gulf Coast, ratooning rice is now possible
thanks to the development of those new varieties of rice which
mature to harvestable conditions much faster. However, a change
in interpretation of the baiting laws relative to ratoon rice
crops several years ago resulted in uncertainty about the
legality of flooding and waterfowl hunting over ratoon rice
crops.
Currently, the Federal interpretation on whether a field is
baited or not includes a variety of possibilities which leads
to confusion by both landowners/producers and hunters. Some
criteria which are increasingly difficult to determine from a
landowner perspective and measure from a law enforcement
standpoint include how the crop plants got there, what has been
done to the crop, and what will happen to it in the future.
The proposed bill affords the opportunity for enhanced
State-level coordination between the USDA Cooperative Extension
Service State offices and State fish and wildlife agencies when
defining normal agricultural practices based on crop type and
conditions. It is an activity that must occur at the State
level to be implemented correctly and successfully.
This bill would codify clearer definitions around issues of
baiting, afford the opportunity for waterfowl hunting over
ratoon rice and other crops that have not been manipulated, and
allow conservation partners to educate producers and hunters
about the value of agriculture to wintering waterfowl without
compromising the legal standing of those producers and hunters.
The bill language reauthorizing the North American Wetlands
Conservation Act at $50 million for the next 4 years is also a
welcome addition. Competition for limited NAWCA funds has
increased in recent years, and this proposed appropriation
level would provide valuable, consistent funding for migratory
bird habitat conservation in coming years. NAWCA is a long
standing program that has been extremely effective in
leveraging non-Federal funds to protect, restore, enhance, and
manage wetland habitat for migratory birds and other wildlife.
Mr. Chairman, once again, in closing, I would like to say I
appreciate the opportunity to testify in support of this
legislation. I believe the changes proposed are essential to
the increased participation in hunting and shooting sports,
which in turn provides the mechanism for increased conservation
of our nation's wildlife resources. I would be happy to answer
any questions you may have about my testimony today and look
forward to continuing our work together to preserve our natural
resources for the next generation.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Crow follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Crow, for
traveling here from Arkansas and for your testimony today.
I would like to next turn to Mr. Dale Hall, who is the CEO
of Ducks Unlimited and the former Director of the United States
Fish and Wildlife Service.
Mr. Hall, thanks for joining us today.
STATEMENT OF DALE HALL, CEO, DUCKS UNLIMITED,
AND FORMER DIRECTOR, U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE
Mr. Hall. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the
Committee. Thank you very much for having me here.
Mr. Chairman I request that my written comments be
submitted to the record in their entirety.
Senator Barrasso. And they certainly will. Thank you.
Mr. Hall. Again, thank you for allowing me to be here to
speak on behalf of Ducks Unlimited in support of the HELP Act.
This bill is very important and has a lot of components in it
that are important to all of us in the conservation community.
NAWCA, the North American Wetlands Conservation Act, is
certainly a big part of that, and it is near and dear to Ducks
Unlimited's heart because we work a great deal in restoring
those wetlands out there. Over our 80-year history across the
continent, we have now restored over 14 million acres of
wetlands, and a lot of those acres have been restored with the
help of NAWCA funding in the last 30 years. It has been a real
pleasure to work with this Committee in the past, and hopefully
we are able to provide the information necessary to get this
bill across the finish line.
NAWCA has accomplished success in all 50 States. The
program has conserved more than 33.4 million acres in North
America alone. NAWCA has conserved valuable wetlands across the
continent, but we are still in need of additional work.
Wetlands are still under threat across the continent, and while
we have done a good job, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has
documented that wetland loss has dramatically accelerated by
140 percent since 2004. This non-regulatory approach to working
with the landowners to get the job done is, we believe, the
most effective way to help conserve those wetlands and move
things forward.
NAWCA catalyzes conservation efforts and resource managers
and partners from many sectors to use a variety of voluntary
strategies to restore enhanced degraded habitat, as well as
protect some of the remaining high quality habitat. Wildlife
related recreation generates more than $100 billion in our
economy each year, and we believe the ripple effect of that
would take it up into several hundred billion dollars.
In the Chairman's State of Wyoming, 140,116 hunters created
nearly 5,000 jobs, while 302,758 anglers generated more than
$476 million in retail sales. Eight NAWCA projects have been
completed in Wyoming since the program's inception, and these
projects have conserved 45,000 acres of critical wetland and
wildlife habitat.
The Ranking Member's home State of Delaware currently has
10 NAWCA projects completed or underway, and these projects
have conserved 10,800 acres of wetlands important to the State
residents. Taking $6.6 million of Federal funding leveraged
another $412 million in private and non-Federal funding in
order to do these projects.
These results are not unique and have been seen all over
the country, with more than 5,600 NAWCA partners. I want to
emphasize that again. More than 5,600 NAWCA partners working
together in a volunteer fashion to get this work done.
Our average at Ducks Unlimited in getting the matching
funds--the law requires one to one match--our history is that
we get an average of $3.2 of non-Federal funding for every $1
of Federal funding. That is a pretty significant payoff for the
American taxpayer.
I would also like to emphasize the importance in this bill
of the reauthorization of the National Fish and Wildlife
Foundation. I have been, through my career, around to see NFWF
grow and do all the wonderful things that it has been able to
do, and we certainly support the reauthorization of the
National Fish and Wildlife Foundation.
The Neotropical Migratory Bird Conservation Act, while only
$6.5 million, is critical to working with the international
community in getting things done.
Finally, my colleague here will speak to the Chesapeake
Bay, but it is a very important area. Like the Gulf Coast,
where more than a million acres have been lost and partners are
working together to try to restore those wetlands, the
Chesapeake Bay is another true jewel for the American people.
Again, I look forward to working with this Committee and
answering any questions that I can to help get this bill
approved. It is a good bill, it is a bipartisan bill, and it is
a bill that is very much needed, so thank you very much for
allowing me to be here.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hall follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much for your testimony,
Mr. Hall. We are delighted to have you.
Ms. Coble.
STATEMENT OF KIM COBLE, VICE PRESIDENT, ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION AND RESTORATION, THE CHESAPEAKE BAY FOUNDATION
Ms. Coble. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member Carper, and
distinguished members of the Environment and Public Works
Committee, I am Kim Coble, Vice President of Environmental
Protection and Restoration for the Chesapeake Bay Foundation.
On behalf of our board, staff, and members, thank you for
inviting me to participate in today's hearing to discuss the
HELP for Wildlife bill. And thank you to the bill cosponsors on
the Committee, Senator Barrasso, Senator Cardin, Senator
Capito, Senator Boozman, for your leadership in introducing the
bill.
At CBF we have over 240,000 members and are proud to count
sportsmen and anglers among them. In fact, our founders were
sportsmen and anglers, and we have found them to be great
conservationists.
Today we are sitting in the middle of the Chesapeake Bay
watershed, which feeds the great estuary in our nation. The
Chesapeake watershed spans six States, 64,000 square miles, and
encompasses over 3,600 species of plants and animals. We are
surrounded by astonishing lands and waters that our
extraordinary life depends on. These resources not only provide
substantial ecological value, but they also provide tremendous
economic value.
Data from the outdoors industry underscore how important
these lands and waters are to sportsmen, anglers, and other
outdoor lovers in the region. According to the Outdoors
Industry Association, annual consumer spending on outdoor
recreation is $644 billion. In Maryland, West Virginia, and
Delaware alone, the 2012 outdoor recreation economy generated a
total of 206,000 direct jobs, $21.1 billion in consumer
spending, and provided $5.9 billion in wages and salaries.
Given both the ecological and economic value of the
Chesapeake ecosystem, it is easy to understand why the six Bay
States have been working together under a formal voluntary
agreement since 1983 to restore the Chesapeake Bay watershed.
At that time, our States realized isolated local restoration
work was not yielding the results that are needed, and a
Federal partnership was critical to achieving these results.
Today, our States operate under the 2014 Chesapeake Bay
Agreement. The first three goals of this agreement are to
protect, restore, and enhance fisheries and vital habitats, and
achieve the water quality necessary to support these living
resources. These three goals are at the heart of the programs
put forward on the HELP for Wildlife Act.
The Chesapeake Bay Foundation strongly supports the
conservation programs included in this bill. They are important
to the sportsmen and anglers in our region, and to restoring
the Chesapeake Bay through the 2014 Bay Agreement. They work
together to support both local interests and the larger
restoration of the cross-State ecosystem.
The Chesapeake Bay Program reauthorized by this bill exists
to help Bay States achieve their goals in the Bay Agreement. It
facilitates the Federal partnership that is critical for
protecting and restoring the multi-State Chesapeake ecosystem.
The Chesapeake Bay Program has allowed States to set science
based goals that address the needs of the entire ecosystem, but
are also tailored to local habitats and values. The majority of
program funding is invested through matching grants in local
projects that directly help protect and restore wildlife and
fisheries in their habitats.
This leads me to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation,
or NFWF. NFWF administers some of the grants that are
established by the Chesapeake Bay Program through their
Chesapeake Stewardship Fund. These matching grants incentivize
local watershed protection and stewardship, but they must also
help the States meet their science based Bay Agreement goals.
Take wetlands, for example. States have set a goal to
restore 85,000 acres of wetlands and enhance an additional
150,000 acres of wetlands by 2025. This Stewardship Fund can be
invested in local stewardship projects that help reach that
goal. In this way they achieve a win-win for local stakeholders
and ecosystems.
Both NAWCA and the Neotropical Migratory Bird Conservation
Act provide critical investment and support for local
stakeholder projects and habitat restorations. As a midpoint
for the Atlantic flyway, the Chesapeake is a critical area for
migratory birds and provides great systems for ecotourism and
birders.
Moving to fish habitat, codifying the National Fish Habitat
Partnership will support locally led Atlantic Fish Habitat
Partnership, which CBF is proud to be a member of, and the
Chesapeake Bay Gateways and Watertrails network and Grants
Program supports local initiatives to connect outdoor lovers
with natural resources by expanding the physical access to the
Bay.
Programs included in this bill are very important to
sportsmen and anglers in our region, and to the success of the
2014 Bay Agreement. They work together to support both local
interest in restoration needs, and for this reason the
Chesapeake Bay Foundation strongly supports the conservation
programs included in the HELP for Wildlife Act. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Coble follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Inhofe [presiding]. Thank you, Ms. Coble.
Mr. Vucetich.
STATEMENT OF JOHN VUCETICH, PH.D., ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, SCHOOL
OF FOREST RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE, MICHIGAN
TECHNOLOGICAL UNIVERSITY
Mr. Vucetich. Committee, thank you for this opportunity to
testify. I appreciate it greatly. I am a professor of wildlife
management from Michigan Technological University and have been
studying wolf ecology and management for the past 20 years.
My professional understanding of the HELP for Wildlife Act
is that it is a Trojan horse and should be opposed or amended.
It contains some important positive provisions, but its most
important effect, I believe, would be to undermine the
Endangered Species Act and to subvert wolf conservation.
Wolves are understood by science to be valuable to our
ecosystems. Most Americans also recognize that wildlife,
including wolves, possess value in their own right, and should
be treated fairly and with respect. Sociological evidence is
clear that the public support for wolves and wolf conservation
is strong. Public support for the Endangered Species Act is
also high among both liberal and conservative constituents.
Nevertheless, some citizens and special interests express
concern that conserving wolves comes at too high a price. They
raise disquiet about human safety, protecting livestock, and
unfair competition with hunters for deer.
I address each of those topics in detail in my written
testimony, and here I can summarize the main findings.
First, and with respect to human safety, wolves, very
simply, are not a threat to human safety. This fact is robustly
supported by scientists in academia and in government. False
impressions to the contrary are fostered by those who fabricate
stories, made up stories about wolves and the threats that they
cause to humans.
Second, and with respect to livestock, government
statistics plainly indicate that wolves are not a threat to the
livestock industry. Wolves can certainly be a concern and a
problem for some individual livestock owners, and we have an
important obligation to attend to those challenges.
Fortunately, there are effective tools available to deal with
those problems. They include non-lethal control and financial
compensation. And when those programs need to be improved, they
should be so improved.
The economic impact on livestock is more than likely made
up greatly by wolves' effect on over-abundant deer populations.
Over-abundant deer in the Great Lakes region is detrimental to
forestry, it is detrimental to crops, it is detrimental to
private property and human safety. In each of the three States
in the Great Lakes region, about a dozen people are killed
every year when their automobiles strike deer, and injuries
number in the many hundreds.
Wolf delisting is also motivated by very few people with an
intense interest to hunt wolves. Their voices have been greatly
amplified by State agencies. Their expressed motivation is to
promote deer hunting; however, the best scientific evidence
indicates that hunter success is influenced by factors aside
from wolves, and State agencies from the Great Lakes region
report that deer hunting is quite successful both in terms of
number of deer harvested and hunter satisfaction.
So these concerns, human safety, livestock, and deer, they
tend to be grossly exaggerated. And to the limited extent that
the concerns are genuine, they are readily accommodated.
The concerns about wolf hunting go further. First, plans
for wolf hunting are at odds with sound science, especially in
the State of Wisconsin, where hunting would be intense enough
to impair the ecological value of wolves. This is one of the
values that is explicitly expressed in the finding section of
the ESA, a value to be protected.
Another concern about hunting pertains to America's hunting
heritage and the widely acknowledged decline in hunting
participation. Because few Americans participate in hunting,
the success, the future success of hunting in America depends
on the attitudes of non-hunters. Most non-hunters support
hunting when it is motivated by obtaining meat; and most
Americans, most non-hunters, oppose hunting when it is
motivated by hatred for the animal, when it is motivated by
obtaining a trophy, especially by cruel methods such as traps
and neck snares. These are the important motivations and
methods of wolf hunting. Pressing for this kind of hunting will
unquestionably harm America's hunting heritage in the whole.
A few assert that wolves demonstrate shortcomings in the
Endangered Species Act. However, with a 99 percent success
rate, the Endangered Species Act has been extremely effective
at preventing the extinction of listed species. Moreover, there
is solid sociological evidence to indicate that most people do
not believe the Endangered Species Act is overly protective.
Finally, the Endangered Species Act allows for ample
flexibility about how it is that agencies and their
collaborators go about recovering species.
What the ESA requires is better implementation, and
implementation is impaired when Congress intervenes on
decisions pertaining to individual species, it is impaired when
Congress intervenes on judicial review of ESA decisions, and
when Congress fails to provide adequate funding for the
Endangered Species Act. Adequate implementation also depends on
sound science playing its proper role, a condition that is not
always realized.
So this is a summary of the shortcomings as I see them for
the HELP for Wildlife Act as they pertain, in particular, to
the Endangered Species Act and wolf conservation.
Thank you for the opportunity.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Vucetich follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Mr. Vucetich.
Our Chairman will be coming back, Senator Barrasso. He is
voting right now, and as soon as he gets back I am going to run
and vote, so I am going to kill some time while we are waiting.
Let me ask you a couple questions. First of all, confession
is good for the soul, Dale. I didn't chew out, because I never
do that, but I admonished my staff because they didn't let me
introduce you. I always thought you were from Oklahoma. Then
she looked it up, and you are not; you are from Tennessee; is
that right?
Well, anyway, you have come. This Partnership Act has
really been great, and during the last couple administrations
we have been able to successfully--in fact, when you were
Director, you came out to Oklahoma; you talked to the
landowners out there in western Oklahoma on our farmlands, our
ranch lands. Somehow there is this notion that the landowners
and the sportsmen somehow don't care that much about the land,
about preserving it, about the environmental benefits, and we
find this to be completely wrong.
In fact, when you were out there, and Dan Ashe, I think it
was, found the same thing, and the Government had learned from
them how to preserve and take care of the conservation concerns
and all that. Has that been your experience?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir, it sure has. In my 40 years or so
working in conservation, and at least 30 of those directly with
people that own the land, we need to understand something that
is very basic. In this country, 65 to 70 percent of all fish
and wildlife habitat is in private ownership, and it is there
because they care. It is there because they have been good land
stewards and because they have wanted to have as much diversity
and health on their lands as possible.
And I have never found a farmer or a rancher or a forest
owner, or anyone else, that didn't truly love the land, and I
think it is really unfortunate that anyone would make
disparaging remarks such as these landowners don't care. That
is simply not the truth. They do care, and they are America's
first and foremost stewards of the resource.
Senator Inhofe. Well, you know, I have heard that
statement, and that is very disturbing.
Ms. Coble, do you generally agree with that, that the
landowners and sportsmen are first in line in trying to
preserve the conservation?
Ms. Coble. Yes, very much so. Our experience in working
with farmers across the watershed have been that they are very
open and willing and able to make improvements on their land
and take care of it. As I mentioned in my testimony, we look at
these landowners as the first conservationists, and it is a
very strong ethic that we find throughout the watershed.
Senator Inhofe. And I would say also, in your particular
job, you depend on landowners, on the private sector to provide
a lot of the funding and a lot of the resources necessary to
have that conservation.
Ms. Coble. The funding for the Bay restoration comes from
many sources, and private landowners are one of those, yes.
Senator Inhofe. Sure.
Do you agree with that, Mr. Crow? How are things in
Arkansas?
Mr. Crow. Yes, sir. In Arkansas, 90 percent of our land is
privately owned. We feel a tremendous responsibility to those
landowners to help them understand how they play a role in
conservation and working with them.
One particular example that we have right now is our quail
restoration effort. We are reaching out to landowners all
across the State to develop some focal areas to restore our
quail habitat back to its former glory. So we are getting a lot
of support for that, and I am really encouraged, as we visit
with landowners, the level of interest that they have, whether
hunters or not, in participating in conservation.
Senator Inhofe. Oklahoma and Arkansas, we are about half-
hog in Oklahoma, and I have to tell you that while I am very
familiar--three of my kids graduated from Arkansas, so we are
very familiar with it--with the ducks and the geese
particularly. However, we compete on almost an even basis in
the north central part of Oklahoma. As you know, we have
flyways there that are almost unmatched. But generally
speaking, they are the ones that really do want to have all the
pristine and protection of the economy.
How about in Wyoming?
Mr. Nesvik. Well, thank you, Senator. Wyoming is very
similar to what some of the other witnesses have testified to
here. About 50 percent of our State is private land. Simply
put, we would not enjoy the abundance nor the diversity of
wildlife species that we have in our State without private
lands, and many times those private lands are some of the most
productive lands and are oftentimes used by wildlife.
And I guess, second, the second part of your question with
regards to sportsmen, that is one of the values that we really
value in Wyoming. Oftentimes, our best conservation efforts
come as a consequence of sportsmen and landowners and others
that love wildlife coming together to try to develop these
projects, and nearly every single provision in this bill has
some component of it that requires partnerships with private
landowners and sportsmen.
Senator Inhofe. And you know, of course, Senator Barrasso
being the Chairman of this Committee, he has been very
interested and the prime mover of this bill, which, by the way,
we had some kind of a goof up because I was to be one of the
original cosponsors, too. And he has now returned, so I am
going to go vote.
Senator Barrasso, welcome back.
Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Well, thank you very much,
Chairman Inhofe, for your continued incredible leadership of
this Committee.
As I mentioned to the others, there will be people coming
in and out, but I would like to start, if I could, Brian, with
you with questioning.
Could you just talk about how important it is in terms of
outdoor recreation for the State of Wyoming in terms of our
economy, and then will this HELP for Wildlife Act improve these
opportunities?
Mr. Nesvik. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. The short answer
to your question is absolutely. As you and many of the esteemed
members of this panel here today are well aware, habitat is the
lifeblood of wildlife and also wide open spaces which provide
opportunities for a variety of different outdoor activities
like fishing, camping, outdoor photography, hiking, horseback
riding, boating, hunting, wildlife viewing.
All of these activities--and there are many, many others--
are a major part of our State's economy; they work
symbiotically with the economy and are very important with
regards to the provisions dealing with shooting ranges.
In our State, as I think you are well aware, Governor Matt
Mead has made providing shooting opportunities for all of its
citizens a high priority. He strongly believes that outdoor
activities connect people with the outdoors, and that is
important, and that is an important part of our values and our
culture in our State. So the provisions in this bill that
encourage partnership with Federal land management agencies is
very much in alignment with our economy and also with our
culture.
With regard to the provisions on allowing States to make
decisions on the use of lead tackle, that is another very
important component of our State's recreation and economy.
Fishing is a big part of what a lot of our folks spend their
extra time doing, so having that ability is also important.
Then, last, I think the regulatory certainty that comes
with the provisions on the migratory bird baiting is another
component that is helpful for both landowners, farmers, and
also hunters, alike.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Mr. Hall, the HELP for Wildlife Act extends the
authorization of appropriations for the North American Wetlands
Conservation Act for 5 years. Your written testimony talks
about the projects you mentioned in Wyoming that have been
funded by the Act. You mentioned the protection of ocean lake
wetlands in Wyoming, a $75,000 grant. I think you stated it
``provides important habitat to a variety of migratory birds,
including several species of waterfowl, shorebirds, many other
wetland-dependent species.''
Could you provide more examples as to how the North
American Wetland Conservation Act has been used to enhance
wildlife habitat in other States?
Mr. Hall. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I welcome that question
because many people believe, unfortunately, that the North
American Wetlands Conservation Act is the North American
Waterfowl Conservation Act. It is the North American Wetlands
Conservation Act. And when we do a project, and we do it at
Ducks Unlimited alone, we average about 500 projects a year of
one form or another. And by the Fish and Wildlife Service's
estimate, those projects, each one benefits up to 900 species.
I want to say that again. Between 700 and 900 species are
benefited by these wetlands projects because, first of all, all
wildlife needs water. So, if nothing else, it is a watering
place for many of these. But these wetlands create the whole
ecosystem, the food chain all the way from the micro
invertebrates up through the top predators.
So throughout the nation these kinds of projects are
benefiting all the people. They purify water; they help to hold
back flood damage by storing water. Along the coastlines
wetlands are known to--if a hurricane is traveling over
emergent marsh, for every 2.7 miles that it travels over
emergent marsh, the storm surge is reduced by 1 foot.
There are many, many benefits that come from creating these
wetlands projects.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Mr. Nesvik, May 1st, 2017, U.S. Fish and Wildlife issued a
final ruling, again delisting the gray wolf in Wyoming under
the Endangered Species Act pursuant to a mandate by the U.S.
Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia. This puts the
management of the gray wolf where it should have been all
along, under the control of Wyoming, not Washington.
In the words of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, ``The
Court's decision recognizes the recovered status of gray wolves
and affirms the Service's determination that the State's
regulatory mechanisms are sufficient for conserving wolves
under its authority.''
Talk about what kind of actions you are going to take to
protect the gray wolves in Wyoming under your authority and to
maintain adequate numbers needed to maintain that healthy
population.
Mr. Nesvik. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. Excellent question. I
will start by just saying very simply implementation of
Wyoming's wolf management plan is the short answer to your
question. Our Governor, our elected legislature, our Wyoming
Game and Fish Commission, all of our elected leaders in the
State and appointed leaders have pledged support and commitment
to manage for healthy and viable populations of wolves in our
State into the future.
As I have stated in my testimony, during those brief 2
years when we did have the opportunity to manage wolves, we did
it with a tremendous track record; we did it informed by
science in an adaptive manner and with the public involved, the
public for whose wildlife we manage as participants.
Specifically, our plan calls for management of wolves and the
number of breeding pairs above the minimum requirements of the
Fish and Wildlife Service; it requires an adaptive approach,
meaning that as the science changes, conditions on the ground
change, so does the management; it requires focused monitoring
through the use of telemetry collars and classification
flights. When Wyoming had this authority before, we collared
over 70 wolves to make sure that we were very closely
monitoring the status of the population.
Our plan requires the monitoring of genetic interchange; it
requires us to provide and facilitate a zone, a flex zone where
wolves can move back and forth between subpopulations; it calls
for tightly regulated hunting seasons; it requires, just like
we do with every other species, to provide law enforcement and
to ensure that these regulations related to wolf management are
enforced; and it also requires citizen involvement.
So I think with all of those things, proven track record,
commitments by elected leaders, I think demonstrates clearly
that we are ready again, for the third time, to take over wolf
management and do an excellent job at it.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Senator Boozman.
Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Director Crow, under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, there
are substantial fines for those who bait and hunt migratory
birds over presently undefined baited areas. The problem is
that farming practices carried out to produce a marketable crop
in Arkansas, and recommended by the applicable State agency
under the Department of Agriculture, are often in conflict with
the baiting prohibition.
As head of the Arkansas State wildlife agency, can you
provide this Committee with your observations on the confusion
that has resulted from the contradiction? Do you believe
section 3 of the HELP for Wildlife Act would resolve this
situation? Also, it is not only the farmers, but it is the
hunters that certainly don't want to put their reputation on
the line, their freedom. So, again, could you comment on that?
Mr. Crow. Yes, sir, Senator Boozman. We actually had a
situation in 2012, we had a drought that resulted in an early
harvest of a lot of our rice crops, and then an early summer
rain that produced kind of an unintended ratoon rice crop. Our
local cooperative extension service advised our producers to
either roll or plow those crops and to return those nutrients
to the soil, which would clearly fall within the parameters of
normal agricultural practice. However, the interpretation from
the Fish and Wildlife Service maintained that those fields
would be baited and that hunters would not be allowed to hunt
waterfowl over them.
This created a lot of confusion, and it caused a lot of
difficulties for our producers and our farmers. I do believe
that section 3 will be very helpful in terms of consistency and
clarification for our hunters and for our producers and
landowners. I think the biggest component of that is the local
input; it is the consideration, what is the normal agricultural
practice being pushed out at that State level, and I think that
would be very helpful not only for our producers, but for our
hunters.
Senator Boozman. In your testimony, one of the things that
you highlighted was the importance of enhanced State level
coordination between USDA and the cooperative extension service
and State agencies. Why do you feel that enhanced State level
coordination is so important when defining normal agricultural
practices?
Mr. Crow. I believe that it is critically important because
it is not a one size fits all type of determination. I mean,
what is normal practice in McCurtain County, Oklahoma may not
be the same as in Lee County, Arkansas, or Bossier Parish,
Louisiana. There is a divergence of practices that are
conducted at the local level.
Hunting and fishing is a regulated activity, and there are
a lot of regulations, and I think it is incumbent upon
conservation organizations to make sure that those that have
regulatory responsibilities to make sure that those regulations
are not confusing, they are not difficult for our hunters to
understand, or for our producers or for landowners.
These are potential barriers for participation in hunting
activities, and I think at a time in our nation when we
struggle to encourage people to participate in conservation
through hunting, that ambiguous and difficult regulations can
be a barrier to that. So I think it is extremely important.
Senator Boozman. Let's talk a little bit about NAWCA.
Currently, Arkansas has 17 completed or underway projects. Our
State has been able to use $11.7 million in NAWCA funding,
along with another $41.7 million in partner contributions, to
conserve a total of 77,089 acres of wildlife habitat. Would
Arkansas be able to conserve that much wildlife without the
NAWCA program?
Mr. Crow. No, sir. There would be no way that we could
maintain that level of work absent the assistance that comes to
us through the NAWCA program. The beauty of this program is it
is private landowner friendly, it is non-regulatory, and it is
an incentive based program.
I think it is interesting to note, and worthy to note, that
the contribution, the in kind contributions almost triple,
through whether it be our agency or organizations like Ducks
Unlimited that contribute to these programs is absolutely
essential for what we are doing in wetland conservation to have
this program.
Senator Boozman. So really great public-private
partnerships.
Mr. Crow. Absolutely.
Senator Boozman. Very good.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Senator Inhofe.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you. I know I asked quite a few
questions while we were waiting for our Chairman to get back
from voting, but I have a couple more.
By the way, in your absence, I told Mr. Crow about our
competition between Arkansas and Oklahoma in our hunting and
fishing wildlife, and what I was starting to say when Senator
Barrasso came back in, after I was praising him for what he has
done with this bill, I just said they also have another Senator
there, and he is really big into fish and wildlife. In fact,
the criticism that we get from his staff is that he goes off to
commitments around the State, he keeps his fly rod in his
trunk, and if he gets over a stream, he will stop there and
fish for 2 or 3 hours and completely miss his meeting. So he is
another one who is interested in this.
I had just a couple questions.
Mr. Vucetich, you had made a couple comments. One was that
fewer Americans are hunting now. I don't know where you get
that. Was Oklahoma included in that study?
Mr. Vucetich. No, this is understood to occur throughout
the nation, and in particular in the Midwest, where my comments
were mostly focused on. But I don't believe there is much
dispute about the notion that participation in hunting is
generally on the decline.
Senator Inhofe. Come to Oklahoma; you may find that is not
the case.
You did make a statement, talking about the wolf, that they
are not treated fairly and with respect. I was writing down
what you said.
I would like to kind of get another view on that, if you
would have one, Mr. Nesvik.
Mr. Nesvik. Thank you, Senator. I guess I would
respectfully disagree with that statement. I don't believe that
that is the case. Certainly, in my State and in my workings
with other States in the West, I don't believe that that is the
case. I think that the management plans and the attitudes and
the participation by sportsmen in the past have reflected this
is just another opportunity for another species.
We are very fortunate to have a diversity and abundance of
species in our State. It is another species of wildlife that
people have an opportunity to participate in their management,
whether that be through active management or through being able
to have wildlife viewing opportunities. So I don't agree with
that statement.
Senator Inhofe. All right, well, those are the only two
questions I had.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Inhofe.
Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. Again, we appreciate your presence, your
testimony, and your willingness to respond to our questions.
There are a number of other committees that are meeting right
now, and I think there are probably hearings that maybe
normally would be in the afternoon have been moved to the
morning. So don't view the presence or the absence of members
here as not caring a great deal about these issues.
I think, Mr. Crow, I heard during the introduction or your
comments, I think the Marine Corps was mentioned. Is that true?
Mr. Crow. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Senator Carper. And your name was linked to the term Marine
Corps. What is the connection, sergeant major?
Mr. Crow. I am sorry?
Senator Carper. What is the connection with you and the
Marine Corps?
Mr. Crow. I retired from the Marine Corps in 2007.
Senator Carper. And I just want to thank you.
Mr. Crow. Yes, sir.
Senator Carper. And say semper fi.
Mr. Crow. Thank you, as well.
Senator Carper. OK, Navy salutes Marine Corps. Different
uniforms, same team.
Let me just start with John Vucetich. Does anyone ever
mispronounce your name?
Mr. Vucetich. I am pretty easy about how it is pronounced,
so, no.
Senator Carper. I expect a lot of people call you John.
Mr. Vucetich. Yes.
Senator Carper. We have heard today that some stakeholders
and wildlife managers are frustrated with the lengthy process
associated with recovering and delisting the gray wolf. In your
view, is the process too long? And do you think that a longer
road to recovery within the bounds of the Endangered Species
Act might be appropriate?
Mr. Vucetich. When we think about how long it has taken to
come this far with wolves, over the last 15 years they have
been kind of center stage, especially for the Fish and Wildlife
Service, I think it is important to keep in mind two issues.
One is that wolves are symbols of nature for many Americans;
they are symbols of all of the things that many of us love
about nature, and they are symbols for all the things that many
of us hate about nature. So what that means is that when we
have conversations about wolves, we are having conversations
about our relationship with nature on the whole.
Sometimes that is infused with a distracting amount of
emotion. Nevertheless, they are a proxy for our attitudes
overall. That, I think, demands that we be cautious and take
the time necessary to go through this, because our
understanding of our relationship with nature is not something
that we will just settle on some day and be done discussing; it
is an ongoing sort of thing.
To be a little bit more specific, many of the issues
pertaining to wolves in the Endangered Species Act has to do
with the legal aspect of the definition of significant portion
of range. Without going into the legal details of it, what it
amounts to is that we, as an American people, still don't know
what it means to be an endangered species.
How much does a species have to be impaired by us humans
for us to say that is no longer good enough? That is what is at
the heart of the issue about wolves with the Endangered Species
Act. It is an extremely basic question that affects our
understanding of the Endangered Species Act overall. It is a
very difficult question.
Fish and Wildlife Service has had a very hard time trying
to answer it, in part because it is a hard question. What I
think they need from Congress is encouragement and leadership
on answering it. And when delisting riders, like the one we are
speaking about today, are accompanied with a bill that doesn't
help the Fish and Wildlife Service focus on solving the
problem, it kind of gets them off the hook.
Senator Carper. Good. Thank you.
A question for Kim Coble. We applaud your efforts and those
of others who have worked with you to facilitate and support
the restoration of the Chesapeake Bay to good health, but would
we be able to restore, protect, preserve the Bay if the
Chesapeake Bay program did not exist? Specifically, would the
Bayside States of Maryland and Virginia be able to entice more
distant States like Delaware, like Pennsylvania, like West
Virginia and New York to reduce the flow of pollutants from
their States and otherwise help them to protect the Chesapeake
from upstream threats?
Ms. Coble. Thank you, Senator Carper. No. The Federal
partnership is critical to the Bay restoration effort, and that
has been borne out over decades of work. When you have six
States, you have DC, you have many different governments,
different funding programs, different perspective, different
politics. To have an umbrella of the Federal partnership allows
for better coordination, it allows for better dialogue, it
allows for better science, and it allows for a better outcome
for the whole effort.
Senator Carper. All right. I think you may have begun to
answer this question, but how does this program, the Chesapeake
Bay program, overcome the difficulties that downstream States
have in working with their upstream counterparts?
Ms. Coble. It is an interesting question about the
relationship of downstream versus upstream, because we are all
part of the watershed. So New York is the furthest State
upstream than Pennsylvania. Each State has a role to play in
the Bay clean up in that all their rivers and streams that feed
it are part of it. So when Pennsylvania invests dollars and
effort to improve their own water quality, they are also
improving the health of the Bay.
Now, Maryland and Virginia, being the downstream States,
obviously want to ensure that Pennsylvania does everything it
can, and this is again where the Federal partnership becomes
key. Virginia and Maryland can work much more closely in
assuring Pennsylvania has resources it needs, has the political
will it needs to get the job done because the Federal partners
are at the table as well.
Senator Carper. OK, thanks so much.
Senator Barrasso. Senator Gillibrand.
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate
that the Committee is holding this hearing to scrutinize the
HELP for Wildlife Act. While this bill includes several
important beneficial conservation provisions that I support, I
am concerned about other parts of the bill that would have some
very negative impacts on the Endangered Species Act and the
regulation of toxic chemicals. I am concerned that the TSCA
provision in section 9 of this bill is a solution in search of
a problem that would tie the hands of the EPA from ever
regulating the components of sports fishing equipment.
This provision is unnecessary and does nothing to change
the status quo for recreational fishermen. The EPA is not
currently seeking to regulate sports fishing equipment under
TSCA at the Federal level. However, it would be shortsighted
for us to prevent future TSCA regulation permanently should the
science warrant a change in the future.
I am also concerned that this bill would legislate a
delisting of gray wolves from the Endangered Species Act and
prevent judicial review. Listing decisions should be based on
science, and not politics.
On that topic, I would like to ask the witnesses a few
questions.
Mr. Nesvik, you have raised concerns about livestock
populations that have been impacted, wolf depredation. On
average, how many cattle and sheep are killed by wolves each
year in Wyoming?
Mr. Nesvik. Thank you, Senator. The number of cattle and
sheep that are killed annually that is attributed to wolf
depredation fluctuates widely. Last year was a record year, and
I can get back to you with specific numbers, but I can tell you
it was in the hundreds, over 200 cattle that were attributed to
wolf depredations.
Senator Gillibrand. And how does that number compare to
other predators like coyotes, mountain lions, and bears?
Mr. Nesvik. So in Wyoming we also investigate and
compensate landowners who have damages that are a consequence
of grizzly bears, mountain lions, and black bears. And in
total, of all of the different species that cause damage across
our State, not only to cattle or sheep, but also to standing
crops or to agricultural operations, wolves account for about
37 percent of that total amount of damage to livestock
producers and also farmers.
Senator Gillibrand. Dr. Vucetich, is wolf delisting
necessary to protect livestock from wolf attacks, and are there
effective methods for protecting livestock that can be used by
farmers, ranchers, and government agencies today?
Mr. Vucetich. Yes, there are effective methods for
protecting livestock. They include non-lethal control, there
would be some instances where lethal control is appropriate,
and also for financial compensation for these losses are
appropriate.
Senator Gillibrand. For Ms. Coble, as you know, New York
State is part of the Chesapeake Bay watershed, and New York
State receives approximately $2.7 million through the
Chesapeake Bay Watershed Program for conservation projects.
What types of projects are funded in New York to conserve the
Chesapeake Bay, and is there more that can be done to help New
York meet its conservation goals for the Chesapeake Bay?
Ms. Coble. Thank you, Senator. Generally speaking, New York
is one of the six States that feed into the Chesapeake Bay
watershed and therefore have goals to reduce the pollution
coming down the Susquehanna from New York. The resources for
New York, I can get you the specifics from it, but there are
pollution reducing programs specifically for agricultural
purposes, agricultural farms, as well as for stormwater runoff.
So I don't have the dollar figures right handy.
Senator Gillibrand. Will you submit that for the record?
Ms. Coble. Yes, ma'am.
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you all for being here today, and
thank you for testifying.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you so very much, Senator
Gillibrand.
Senator Booker.
Senator Booker. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Some of my comments want to pick up where Senator
Gillibrand was, but as we consider this bill, what is
astonishing to me is that we just have to acknowledge that we
are in the midst of a global extinction crisis on the planet
Earth of stunning proportion. It is estimated that we have now
lost more than half of all wildlife on the planet Earth in the
last five decades, and the fact that we are not talking about
this in the context of the severity of this mass extinction
that we are under right now is chilling to me. This should be
an issue for Congress, and it should be an issue for public.
One in six species on the planet Earth are threatened with
extinction in this century alone, and that is why the
Endangered Species act, which has saved 99 percent of the
wildlife under its protection from extinction, is such an
incredibly important law, and it is why the ESA decisions must
be based on science, without interference from Congress.
So, Mr. Vucetich, I just want to focus some questions on
you, if I may, in follow up to Senator Gillibrand.
So section 7 of the bill that we are discussing would
delist gray wolves in the western Lakes for endangered species,
and you know, obviously, in 2014 the District Court here in
Washington struck down the exact same efforts to delist the
wolves. As you know, wolves in the United States currently
inhabit only 15 percent of their historic range. So we have
savagely--by 85 percent--cut their range.
You specifically have written a lot of the scholarly
literature on the Endangered Species Act, so, based on your
expertise, can you just explain whether the western Great Lakes
wolves have met the ESA's requirements for delisting?
Mr. Vucetich. No, they haven't, and the main reason is
because, as you mentioned, wolves in the lower 48 have only
been recovered to 15 percent of their former range, and the
Endangered Species Act uses language that is shrouded in this
phase ``significant portion of range.''
What the courts have indicated in about a dozen court cases
over about a 10-year period is that that phrase means that the
Endangered Species Act says that recovery requires the species
be relatively widely distributed throughout its former range.
There are some difficulties and challenges in understanding
exactly what ``widely distributed'' means, but there doesn't
seem to be much dispute that 15 percent doesn't qualify. That
is what the great concern is with these court cases. That is
why every time the Fish and Wildlife Service proposes to delist
under our meager conditions for wolves, the courts have struck
them down, because it violates that particular principle of the
Endangered Species Act.
Senator Booker. Thank you very much. And we do know the
data about the damage to livestock. This is not an issue at
question. Right now, less than one-half of 1 percent of
livestock losses are attributable to wolves. Less than one-half
of 1 percent. Concerns, nevertheless, have been raised about
their negative economic impacts.
Is there a way to think about the economic impacts of
wolves that considers the broader ecological benefits that
wolves provide and the sort of cost-benefit analysis?
Mr. Vucetich. Yes, yes, absolutely. As you mentioned, there
is a great deal of focus on the negative impact of wolves
economically, and it is mostly focused on livestock. To cite
two particular examples, in Wisconsin and Minnesota, they spend
in the neighborhood of $150,000 or $200,000 a year compensating
for that. Those losses absolutely need to be weighed against
the benefit of wolves. And I am talking about relatively hard
core economic benefits.
One of the great troubles in the Great Lakes are over-
abundant deer populations. Over-abundant deer are damaging to
forestry. In particular, when there are too many deer, hemlock
can't grow, white pine can't grow, several other species. If
wolves are allowed to do what they do, they would better over-
abundant deer populations and it would give a very different
impression of the economic cost.
There is also a human life issue, too, because, again,
about a dozen people are killed a year in each of these States
when their cars hit deer. So there is a sense of maybe putting
human life in front of livestock, if you would expand it that
way.
Senator Booker. Absolutely. So just in a sheer balance
sheet analysis to taxpayers around the United States of
America, the ESA makes economic sense.
But let's continue for a second. If the bill written
becomes law, Great Lakes wolves would lose all of their Federal
protections, and management of wolves would be turned over to
the States. Between 2012 and 2014 Great Lakes wolves enjoyed
those protections. But during the time State wildlife managers
permitted some incredibly cruel methods to kill hundreds of
wolves, and these include savage cable neck snares; steel jawed
leg hold traps, which affect other wildlife, even our pets,
these savage things that I have worked in a bipartisan way to
try to ban from our national wildlife refuges; pack trailing of
hounds.
So, in your opinion, do you think these methods are
considered as ``fair chase'' wolf hunting methods?
Mr. Vucetich. No, they are not fair. One of the things that
I think is important about wildlife management, about hunting
programs in particular, is that we don't just simply hunt
things; we hunt things for a reason, and the reason has to be a
good reason, and then the methods have to be appropriate along
with that. And there is pretty good reason to think that a lot
of wolf hunting is motivated by hatred for wolves, and never in
our American hunting heritage have we ever hunted something
because we hated it. This is the first time in our history that
we have decided to do that.
The other thing, just one more example, again, the example
in Michigan, the plan for hunting wolves was all focused on
reducing livestock depredations. It is important to reduce
livestock depredations, but hunting is an absolutely silly way
to do it; it doesn't make any sense with the science. So, once
again we are hunting and killing wolves for reasons that
doesn't make sense, and in that sense it is not fair or
respectful to wolves.
Senator Booker. I am just going to push one final question.
Arguments in favor of wolf conservation tend to focus
exclusively on the benefits that wolves provide to humans, and
whether those benefits outweigh any negative impacts on us.
This strikes me as sort of a limited view. So much of this
analysis is done on a limited view, including that economic
analysis we mentioned before.
So my final question is, is there a broader perspective
that we should be considering when discussing wolf conservation
and management that takes into account how residents of the
Great Lakes States and other public folks perceive wolves?
Mr. Vucetich. Absolutely. There is good sociological
evidence that indicates something like 80 to 90 percent of
Americans say that wildlife have value beyond their economic
value and beyond any value to humans. In other words, 80 to 90
percent of Americans believe that wildlife, including wolves,
have value for its own sake. This is across demographic
categories; men, women, wealthy people, middle class people,
liberals, conservatives. It is a very, very widespread belief.
When you believe that something has value in its own right,
that is the trigger for saying that it needs to be treated
fairly and with respect, and I cited just a moment ago some
important examples how wolves are not treated that way.
Senator Booker. Sir, thank you very much for your
testimony, even though you have an over-abundance of hair.
Mr. Chairman, can I, for the record----
Senator Barrasso. Be added as a cosponsor, did you say?
[Laughter.]
Senator Booker. Cosponsor of the requirement that all
witnesses shave their heads, I would be very happy for that.
This guy makes me feel really insecure.
Mr. Vucetich. We can find a compromise, maybe.
Senator Booker. OK. We can meet midway.
But there is a book that I did with my Booker Book Club,
sir, which I think you might be a member of, I am not sure. We
did a book called The Sixth Extinction by Elizabeth Kolbert. It
is a devastating book that talks about the mass extinction
going on in the United States of America. May I enter that book
into the record?
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
Senator Booker. Thank you very much.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
[The referenced information is available in Committee
files.]
Senator Barrasso. Mr. Nesvik, you know what is interesting?
In your written testimony you discuss the North American
Wetlands Conservation Act, the reauthorization that is in this
HELP for Wildlife Act, and you make a point that about one-
third of all endangered species are wetlands related species.
So is it safe to say that reauthorization of this program in
this bill is actually going to help protect many endangered
species? And can you maybe elaborate on that a little bit on
that?
Mr. Nesvik. Absolutely, Mr. Chairman. I think that one of
the important tenets of wildlife conservation is the fact that
water is absolutely important to all living things on the
planet. I think that is understood by most. But healthy
wetlands are an indicator of overall ecosystem health, and Mr.
Hall did an excellent job of talking about some of the details
that really give rise to that analysis and that conclusion.
There are, as I stated in my testimony and as you just
reiterated, a wide, wide range of endangered species that are
what we call wetland obligates, species like the Kendall Warm
Springs dace. That is a species that is only found in one
particular spot in the Upper Green River Basin of Wyoming, and
that is where we conducted a $1 million NAWCA project,
specifically in that particular area.
The Wyoming toad is another wetland obligate endangered
species that relies heavily on wetlands, to name a couple
Wyoming species.
Other species include the whooping crane, the southwestern
willow flycatcher, piping plover, least tern, Yuma clapper rail
in the southwest, the desert pupfish. I bet you have never
heard of that one, Mr. Chairman. And a variety of plants as
well, just to name a very few.
Senator Barrasso. Great. Thank you very much.
Senator Cardin.
Senator Cardin. Mr. Chairman, first of all, thank you for
keeping the hearing open, as I was tardy getting back from the
floor. I appreciate that. I very much appreciate your
leadership on this bill, as I said as I was introducing Kim
Coble.
This bill is important for many reasons, and I appreciate
each of the witnesses' testimony as to various parts of it. I
am obviously very much interested in the impact that this
legislation has on the Chesapeake Bay, and I say that because
we have heard from the OMB director that it is important to
have authorized programs, Mr. Chairman. I agree with that. We
are the authorizing Committee. It is important for us to speak.
And we have been funding the Chesapeake Bay effort with
that authorization for many, many years, and under the
Chairman's leadership we now have the opportunity to have an
authorized program, which gives it a much stronger standing. It
has had strong standing in Congress; it has been supported in
Congress. But having authorization puts it in a much stronger
position.
We have also had challenges, and this is not alone, in
regards to attacks on continuation of the funding of the
program. And this puts us in a much stronger position when you
have an authorization.
What was particularly important--and Kim, you have
commented about this--the Chesapeake Bay program is a modest
program as far as Federal funds, $73 million. It is a
relatively small amount of the total resources that goes into
cleaning up the Chesapeake Bay. The largest amount of
resources, by the way, come from local governments, State
governments, more so than the Federal Government, just so we
understand that the taxpayer support is more local than it is
Federal. And we take pride in that.
But the Federal partnerships are very important, and the
Chesapeake Bay program provides the glue, as Kim testified, to
make sure that we are living up to everyone's obligations. It
really keeps all the stakeholders focused that there is an
overseer that makes sure that we do what we say we are going to
do, and that provides the operations and the grants to make
sure that that in fact takes place.
There are many parts to the Chesapeake Bay program. Several
are included in this legislation. We have already talked about
the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation; we have talked about
the National Fish Habitat partnership, the National American
Wetlands Conservation Act, the Chesapeake Bay Gateways and
Watertrails Network and Grant programs, all those feed in to
the support of the Chesapeake Bay. And I could mention the
Revolving Fund for wastewater and clean water, which very much
fits into it. I could mention the farm bill with the Regional
Conservation Partnership Program.
So there are a lot of pieces that fit into the Chesapeake
Bay, and I say that because it is the largest estuary in our
hemisphere; it has been declared by Presidents as a national
treasure. Kim mentioned the number of species that are included
in the Bay, the economic impact of the Bay, the quality of
life, the iconic nature, that so many people live in the
watershed. Why? Because they love the Chesapeake Bay, and it
grows every year, presenting additional challenges.
So today's hearing on many parts of the Chesapeake Bay
program is really a very, very important ingredient on the
continued efforts that have been made now for close to 40
years, going back to Harry Hughes as Governor of Maryland when
I was in the State legislature.
So, Kim, I just want to give you one last chance to sort of
comment as to the importance of the Chesapeake Bay program
itself, that $73 million that is currently being appropriated
and which here is authorized at $90 million, how important that
is to the overall effort.
Ms. Coble. Thank you, Senator Cardin, and also, thank you
for your leadership for decades on the Bay. I am not sure we
would be where we are today without you, so thank you.
Senator Cardin. I just would point out Senator Mathias
started the efforts, the great Republican Senator from
Maryland; Senator Sarbanes continued that effort, and I have
his seat. Of course, my colleague, Senator Mikulski, has been a
great champion; and on the other side of the aisle John
Sarbanes has been one of our great leaders. But I thank you for
those comments.
Ms. Coble. Probably the best point I can make regarding
this is to actually talk about the health of the Bay, and what
we have seen is that it is recovering. I never really thought
that, really, in my career I would see the improvement in water
quality, the improvement in habitat, and the improvement in the
industries that are supported by it that we have seen over the
last couple of years. Underwater grasses are rebounding; the
famous blue crab is coming back; oysters are doing better;
striped bass are coming back.
Every other year we do a State of the Bay Report where we
give numeric indicators. We gave the highest rating to the
health of the Bay this last year that we have ever give, at 34,
and it is very exciting to see that this Chesapeake Bay
program, the Bay Agreement that is governing the clean up and
the restoration of our land, is working.
It is a true sign of success, and it is a model, I think,
for across the country. It will not work without Federal
leadership. It will not work without the Chesapeake Bay program
and the other programs in this bill. And as you said, Senator
Cardin, it is a modest amount, but it is a critical amount.
That oversight and umbrella is the glue that holds the whole
thing together. So it is with great support for those programs
in this bill that we are here to testify in support of it.
Senator Cardin. Mr. Chairman, let me say in conclusion I
also want to mention support for the neotropical bird, which
includes, as I am sure the Chairman knows, the Baltimore
Oriole, which is a neotropical bird. And we love the Baltimore
Orioles, and they won last night, Mr. Carper, 12 to 1. Just
want you to know.
[Laughter.]
Senator Barrasso. Let the record reflect. We would also
like to introduce for the record, ask unanimous consent for a
number of different submissions of articles, letters, and
testimonies in support of the legislation. Without objection.
Thank you.
[The referenced information appears earlier in the printed
hearing.]
Senator Barrasso. Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. As Senator Cardin prepares to leave, let me
just point out I am just grateful that his moment for victory
on behalf of his Orioles did not occur at the expense of my
Detroit Tigers. To be continued.
Ms. Coble, one thing about your testimony that strikes me
is that the far broader purpose of the Chesapeake Bay program
to address issues that are also highly relevant in this bill
before us, restoration, preservation of critical habitats,
notably, wetlands and other fishery and wildlife habitat.
I just want to take maybe a minute, if you will, to
elaborate on this broader mission of the program beyond water
quality and talk about the partnerships that broader mission
entails among Federal agencies, among States, nonprofits and
business. Who is involved in all these issues in all these
efforts?
Ms. Coble. Thank you, Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. Briefly, if you would.
Ms. Coble. We have often said what happens on the land has
more impact than what is happening in the water, because the
Chesapeake Bay watershed landmass is so enormous, 64,000 square
miles. The habitat that is within that watershed is integral.
All my colleagues at the table here have talked about the
importance and interplay between the animals, the species that
live in it and the quality of that; the need for that habitat;
the bird flyway on the Delmarva peninsula is critical; the
wetlands serving it. So all of those habitats are important for
our wildlife, important for anglers and sportsmen, and
important for water quality.
Senator Carper. All right, thanks.
I was privileged to be Governor of our State from 1993 to
2001, and it was at a time when I think you said there was a
score, if you will, for the restoration of the Bay gave a 34,
said it is the best it has been for quite a while. From 1993 to
2001 the prospect was not so encouraging.
One of the things that we found out, what we are doing in
Delaware, we raise a lot of chickens in my State, your State
too, but in Sussex County, Delaware, we raise more chickens
than any county in America, and they create a lot of chicken
manure.
What we were doing is stacking up the chicken manure,
cleaning our houses and stacking it up in farm fields, and
waiting until somewhere down the line to be able to use it as a
fertilizer for the nitrogen and phosphorous content. And the
rains would come, wash the nutrients into ditches and creeks
and streams, and eventually rivers and eventually into the
Chesapeake Bay.
I remember gathering a lot of farmers in my State together
in southern Delaware and some folks from environmental
communities, from the Department of Natural Resources,
Environmental Control, including the fellow sitting right
behind me, Christophe Tulou; he used to be our secretary. We
talked about the Golden Rule, and I said to the farmers, how
would you feel, how would we feel if folks over in Maryland
were somehow polluting whether it is the air or the water that
comes over and diminishes our ability to make a living? How
would we feel about that? And we all agreed that would not be a
good thing.
And we tried to figure out how to actually be guided by the
Golden Rule, we know about love thy neighbor. We came up with
this Nutrient Management Commission. It was farmer led, and the
final result was every farm where they had poultry litter and
they spread the nutrients on farm fields, they had to have a
nutrient plan and how to do that. They had to be essentially
trained to do that and certified to do that.
And we have had that in place now for almost 20 years, and
it has worked. It has worked. Again, it involved the efforts of
environmentalists and our regulatory agency in the State, but
it was really the farmers, who are and can be some of our best
environmentalists, who were right there at the vanguard. And I
am very, very proud of what we have accomplished, and at the
end of the day, to be a much better neighbor to Maryland, and
we have been for a long, long time.
We applaud all of you here today, whether you served in the
Army, the Marines or not, we are grateful for your service and
sharing your information with us, and I look forward to working
with you going forward. Thank you so much.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you so much, Senator Carper.
Just before I bring this to a close, Brian, a quick
question or two. My recollection is the introduction of wolves
into Yellowstone, Bruce Babbitt, Bill Clinton was President.
The number was like 30, and the idea was to get to 100 as a
stable number, and we have been there for over 15 years.
My recollection in this Committee, Dan Ashe, who was
President Obama's head of Fish and Wildlife, said Wyoming has
done everything that we have asked them to do; they are a
stable population. And I have read somewhere that the number of
wolves that have expanded beyond Yellowstone, where they were
``supposed to stay,'' is now 1,700 in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming.
You are seeing them in Oregon, California. Are those roughly
the accurate numbers, so the wolves have kind of expanded
significantly?
Mr. Nesvik. Mr. Chairman, your numbers are approximate, and
they are correct. Idaho hasn't actually done a population
estimate in a couple years, but Montana and Wyoming have, and
you are exactly right. The wolf population in the northern
Rocky Mountains have done quite well and have expanded.
Senator Barrasso. And then take a look at this map. We talk
about the traditional area of habitat for the gray wolf, which
is in gray. Wasn't it just about most of the United States at
one point or another was the traditional habitat for the gray
wolf, including all of New York and the northern half of New
Jersey? Is this an accurate assessment of what had happened
over the time?
Mr. Nesvik. Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is my understanding of
kind of the historical occupied habitat of wolves back in pre-
settlement.
Senator Barrasso. So, John, in your written testimony, when
you say that wolves inhabit about 15 percent of the historic
range, I think this is truly the case, you can see from the
chart of all of the places where they were, are you advocating
that this return is something that could be feasible?
Mr. Vucetich. No, I am not advocating for that, nor has
anyone else who has worked on this issue of significant portion
of range. I think what is disturbing to many folks who are
focused on this issue is that 15 percent wouldn't seem, prima
facie, to satisfy that notion of, and I am using words a little
less technically, kind of widely distributed, or significant
portion of range, as the law states. They are concerned that
that number doesn't meet the mark.
There is also pretty plain awareness that wolves can do
well in other places. Not all of those places, but definitely
other places. Places that folks have talked about are the
Northeast, Pacific Northwest, the southern Rockies, which is
kind of Colorado and northern New Mexico.
And I don't know that here is the place to go into the very
fine details about that, but just that there are those places
that people have made the case that wolves could do well there.
Senator Barrasso. And I think we have tried to reflect that
with the green, which, at the bottom, if you could maybe hold
this up a little bit, where we say potential habitat.
Mr. Vucetich. Yes.
Senator Barrasso. In green. And then currently occupied
habitat in the red, and then the gray all of the location.
So anything final?
Any final comment, Brian, you would like to make on all of
this?
Mr. Nesvik. So, Mr. Chairman, I guess the one thing I would
conclude with is that our experience in Wyoming has been that
gray wolves is a species that does not coexist well with human
activity. They require large expanses of undisturbed habitat in
order to do well. We have that in Wyoming, and that is where we
have focused our wolf management plan, is in those areas where
it is both biologically and socially suitable habitat for
wolves.
In most of the rest of the State wolves find themselves in
conflict very quickly when they expand to those other areas.
The areas you highlight on that map are places where there are
some larger open expanses, but wolves travel. We have seen
wolves travel 25, 30 miles in a day, and wolves eat meat. That
is a scientific fact. So it is very difficult to find those
large expanses of range where wolves can exist where they don't
conflict with livestock operations.
But I do believe this, and I will conclude with this, Mr.
Chairman, that we have demonstrated and have fully committed to
do both things, mitigate livestock conflicts and also manage
for a viable, healthy, and fully recovered wolf population in
the State of Wyoming in the future.
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Senator Barrasso. Well, I want to thank all of you today.
Members may submit follow up written questions which may happen
for the record. The hearing record will be open for 2 weeks.
I want to thank all the witnesses for your time and
testimony today.
The hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:43 a.m. the Committee was adjourned.]
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