[Senate Hearing 115-130] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 115-130 FEDERAL PAYMENTS TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS PROVIDED THROUGH THE SECURE RURAL SCHOOLS AND COMMUNITY SELF-DETERMINATION ACT AND THE PAYMENT IN LIEU OF TAXES PROGRAMS AND THE NEED TO PROVIDE GREATER FISCAL CERTAINTY FOR RESOURCE-DEPENDENT COMMUNITIES WITH TAX-EXEMPT FEDERAL LANDS ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ MAY 2, 2017 __________ [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Printed for the use of the Committee on Energy and Natural Resources Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov __________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 26-071 WASHINGTON : 2018 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office, http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center, U.S. Government Publishing Office. Phone 202-512-1800, or 866-512-1800 (toll-free). E-mail, [email protected]. COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming MARIA CANTWELL, Washington JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho RON WYDEN, Oregon MIKE LEE, Utah BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont JEFF FLAKE, Arizona DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan STEVE DAINES, Montana AL FRANKEN, Minnesota CORY GARDNER, Colorado JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine ROB PORTMAN, Ohio TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois LUTHER STRANGE, Alabama CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada Colin Hayes, Staff Director Patrick J. McCormick III, Chief Counsel Lucy Murfitt, Senior Counsel and Public Lands & Natural Resources Policy Director Michelle Lane, Professional Staff Member Angela Becker-Dippmann, Democratic Staff Director Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel Bryan Petit, Democratic Senior Professional Staff Member C O N T E N T S ---------- OPENING STATEMENTS Page Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska.... 1 Cantwell, Hon. Maria, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from Washington..................................................... 6 WITNESSES Ferriter, Olivia Barton, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Budget, Finance, Performance and Acquisition, U.S. Department of the Interior....................................................... 9 Casamassa, Glenn, Associate Deputy Chief, National Forest System, U.S. Department of Agriculture................................. 14 Landis, Hon. David, Mayor, Ketchikan Gateway Borough, Alaska..... 21 Cruickshank, Hon. Gordon, Commissioner, Valley County, Idaho..... 26 Manus, Hon. Mike, Commissioner, Pend Oreille County, Washington.. 34 Haggerty, Mark, Headwaters Economics............................. 50 Whitney, Hon. Mark, Commissioner, Beaver County, Utah, and President, Utah Association of Counties on behalf of the National Association of Counties............................... 111 ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED Apache County (Arizona) Board of Supervisors: Letter for the Record........................................ 489 Casamassa, Glenn: Opening Statement............................................ 14 Written Testimony............................................ 16 Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 146 Cantwell, Hon. Maria: Opening Statement............................................ 6 Cochise County (Arizona) Board of Supervisors: Letter for the Record........................................ 491 County Supervisors Association of Arizona: Letter for the Record........................................ 493 Craig City (Alaska) School District: Letter for the Record........................................ 494 Cruickshank, Hon. Gordon: Opening Statement............................................ 26 Written Testimony............................................ 28 Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 465 Ferriter, Olivia Barton: Opening Statement............................................ 9 Written Testimony............................................ 11 Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 145 Gila County (Arizona) Board of Supervisors: Letter for the Record........................................ 496 Haggerty, Mark: Opening Statement............................................ 50 Written Testimony............................................ 52 Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 473 Heller, Hon. Dean: Statement for the Record..................................... 4 Jefferson County (Washington) Board of County Commissioners: Letter for the Record........................................ 498 Johnson, Hon. Buster: Letter for the Record........................................ 503 Landis, Hon. David: Opening Statement............................................ 21 Written Testimony............................................ 23 Manus, Hon. Mike: Opening Statement............................................ 34 Written Testimony............................................ 36 Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 470 Miller, Hon. Stephen: Letter for the Record........................................ 504 Mohave County (Arizona) Board of Supervisors--District 1: Letter for the Record........................................ 505 Murkowski, Hon. Lisa: Opening Statement............................................ 1 National Association of Counties: Letter for the Record........................................ 507 National Education Association: Letter for the Record........................................ 509 National Governors Association: Press Release dated 4/26/2017 entitled ``Governors to Congress: Restore Rural Funding in Continuing Resolution''. 510 Navajo County (Arizona) Board of Supervisors: Letter for the Record........................................ 512 Petersburg Borough, Alaska: Statement for the Record..................................... 513 Sanders, Hon. Bernard: Statement for the Record..................................... 515 SERRC: Board of Directors Resolution No.: 2017-01 for the Record.... 516 Smith, Hon. Jack: Letter for the Record........................................ 517 Stevenson-Carson School District (Washington): Letter for the Record........................................ 518 Sustainable Forest Action Coalition: Letter for the Record........................................ 520 Western Governors' Association: Policy Resolution 2017-03: Tax-Exempt Federal Lands and Secure Rural Schools for the Record........................ 522 Letter for the Record........................................ 525 Whitney, Hon. Mark: Opening Statement............................................ 111 Written Testimony............................................ 113 Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 487 Yavapai County (Arizona) Board of Supervisors: Letter for the Record........................................ 527 Yuma County (Arizona) Board of Supervisors: Letter for the Record........................................ 528 FEDERAL PAYMENTS TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS PROVIDED THROUGH THE SECURE RURAL SCHOOLS AND COMMUNITY SELF-DETERMINATION ACT AND THE PAYMENT IN LIEU OF TAXES PROGRAMS AND THE NEED TO PROVIDE GREATER FISCAL CERTAINTY FOR RESOURCE-DEPENDENT COMMUNITIES WITH TAX-EXEMPT FEDERAL LANDS ---------- TUESDAY, MAY 2, 2017 U.S. Senate, Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m. in Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa Murkowski, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI, U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA The Chairman. Good morning, everyone. The Committee will come to order. We are here today to examine two important, federal payment programs, Secure Rural Schools and Payment in Lieu of Taxes, affectionately known as SRS and PILT. From a broader perspective, we are also here to consider what Congress can do to provide greater fiscal certainty in resource dependent communities with tax exempt federal lands. This is an issue that hits home for many of us, certainly my colleagues from Oregon, Washington, and Idaho. I think you see the interest reflected here on the Committee. In Alaska, the Forest Service controls approximately 22 million acres of land, including 17 million acres in the Southeastern region which is the area that Mayor Landis, from the Ketchikan Gateway Borough, represents. There is not a lot of private land in that region, and I talk about that a lot. There is about 190,000 acres. So think about that. You have 190,000 acres of private land, a fraction of what is within the borough. Again, you have 17 million acres of land that the Forest Service controls there in Southeast. It makes it pretty tough to find where a tax base is. Alaska is a resource dependent state. Our communities rely on the Federal Government to be a good neighbor and partner to support jobs and economic opportunity on federal lands. In the Tongass, that relationship used to be largely focused on timber production. It created good paying jobs to support families, and it generated income that could be shared with communities to provide essential services such as schools. Yet today we are barely cutting any trees in our Nation's largest national forest, just three million board feet last year. Our remaining mills are hanging on by a thread, and so are so many of the people who work at them. When the Federal Government fails to be that good neighbor, fails to be that partner, and we are not allowed to develop our resources, our rural communities suffer. We lose jobs, we lose revenues, and we become more and more dependent on federal programs like SRS and PILT to make up the difference. For example, Petersburg City School District in Petersburg, which is a small community in Southeast Alaska. They received about $550,000 last year from Secure Rural Schools, equal to nearly one-third of the Borough's contribution to its $8.3 million budget. According to the Superintendent, the loss of these funds puts libraries, counselors, music and art programs, and all of the extracurricular programs at risk. Further north in the South Central area in the Chugach School District, SRS funding represented 3.9 percent of the annual budget for the 2016 school year, but six percent as a percentage of teaching staff. The bottom line is that this really translates directly to teaching jobs in many of the schools in my state. And Alaska's story is not unique. Boroughs, counties, and parishes around the country with large swaths of federal lands face real challenges to developing sustainable economies. Many communities that were once reliant on timber production have seen little income behind the mills that shuttered. Reducing timber production has not been particularly good for the health of our forests either. It has created a wildfire problem of epic proportions across much of the West, with over 40 percent of the National Forest System in need of some kind of hazardous fuel reduction treatment. I am not going to suggest this morning that we turn back the clock, that we are going to see the days when I was a young person in Southeast and the timber industry was really booming. But I think we recognize we cannot have the status quo continue. Instead, I think that Congress must act, for the health of our forests and for the survival of our rural communities. First, we have to work together in the short-term to continue both the SRS and PILT programs. The testimony that we will hear this morning will demonstrate why that is critical, but I think we also need to find a better way in the long-term. We need to pick up where we left off with respect to wildfire and forest management reform that Senator Cantwell and I were working on. In the last Congress, this Committee did some pretty good work in this area. We wrote the type of policy that will help provide the jobs and economic activity our rural and our forested communities so desperately need. We also need to do more to gain access to our federal lands for sustainable economic development. This should include opportunities for states and counties to partner with the Federal Government to manage those lands. We have seen a lot of doors close over the years, but hopefully in a new Administration, it is time to start opening some of these back up again. Finally, if we are going to retain federal lands in federal ownership, we need to be creative in thinking about and funding payments for tax-exempt lands. That includes taking a good, hard look at ideas like a permanent Natural Resources Trust and other options for revenue sharing, because the annual scramble that goes on around here to find funding does not provide the certainty or the stability that our rural communities need to provide services to their people. I know that every member of this Committee is visited by people who come around once a year, truly pleading with us, to give them some certainly with regards to their SRS and PILT funding. I feel for those rural communities. I see the effects of federal failures every time I am traveling in Southeast. I also look at the policies, and I know we can do better. That is why we are here this morning, why I am looking forward to hearing from our witnesses about what we need to do to make our federal lands work better for our communities and why today is not just another oversight hearing but hopefully the start of a longer-term effort to do better by the people who live in rural America. Senator Heller has asked me to submit a statement in support of the PILT program for the record, which I will do now, unless there are any objections. So we will include that. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] The Chairman. I will now turn to Senator Cantwell for her comments this morning. STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, U.S. SENATOR FROM WASHINGTON Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for holding this important hearing. I also want to thank all of the Washingtonians that are in the audience, but especially our witness, Commissioner Manus, from Pend Oreille County. Thank you so much for being here. And obviously, my colleague from Oregon, who has been a stalwart on this issue. The task before us is difficult. For us to extend the Secure Rural Schools programs, the House, the Senate and the White House all must, ultimately, support the extension. Unfortunately, some of our colleagues in the House do not understand the importance of Secure Rural Schools program, and the President's budget did not seem to understand the importance of this. We are going to have to work harder. That is why I am joining my colleagues, Senator Wyden and Senator Hatch, tomorrow in introducing a bill to reauthorize the now expired Secure Rural Schools program. Look at the amount of federal land in the West compared with the East. There is a large amount of federal land in the West. We are more impacted by Secure Rural Schools and PILT than counties in the East. By example, Speaker Ryan, I think has something like 14 acres of federal land that is in his Congressional District. Okanogan County in the State of Washington contains 1.6 million acres. Therein lies the huge disconnect. President Trump also seems to not understand that we need the SRS and PILT programs, that the impact that they have on local governments and communities across the West is so important to address. These two programs are what pays for schools, roads and emergency services in our rural communities. So I can't imagine why the budget blueprint that he released basically would cut PILT payments by $76 million, 17 percent. And unlike every one of the eight budget proposals that President Obama submitted, the Trump budget contained no proposal to extend the SRS program. Local governments depend on these programs to function, and we need to have these programs now and give certainty to our local governments. Through PILT alone, the counties in Washington receive over $20 million, and I want them to receive at least that much again this year. Counties have already suffered this year from the ceasing of the payments under the Secure Rural Schools program. In 2016, under SRS, Forest Service payments to Washington counties totaled $17 million. This year, now that SRS is not in place, the Forest Service payment to those communities totaled just $2 million. Commissioner Manus, from Pend Oreille, will talk about how that reduction in funding has forced Pend Oreille County to give back almost $3 million in grants for the county road system because they could no longer provide the required 10 percent match. So thank you for traveling here to tell those stories. You can see that we are completely out of room at the witness table, and that is because every one of these communities has a similar story. Many communities in Washington, like in Okanogan or Chelan County, Whatcom County, and Skamania County, are all impacted by this. Karen Douglas is also here today from Stevenson, Washington, which I just visited recently. Her job is the Superintendent of the Stevenson Carson School District that is in Skamania County. Now, bear in mind, Skamania County is 80 percent federal land, and almost all of the rest of the county is owned by the state or a couple of timber mills. So only two percent of Skamania County can be developed or is taxable. When 80 percent of your land is federal and only two percent is taxable, the government has to chip in for the community services and has to fund the local government agencies that we have come to expect, whether that's 911 or ambulance services, police for visitors to our national forest, support for the federal employees who work in our national forest and their families, or roads for people to come and move around these wonderful lands. A previous Commissioner from Skamania testified at our last hearing on Secure Rural Schools, but I think it is worth repeating some of Skamania County's story. In Skamania County, Secure Rural Schools payments represented more than 15 percent of their county budget. These payments pay the salaries of more than half of the 65 employees for the county. I can't imagine having your annual budget and not knowing whether you are going to have funding to continue to have the workforce in your community. Karen's budget, in particular, has dropped more than 30 percent in the last six years because of our reduction in county payments. With the discontinuation of Secure Rural Schools this year, her budget dropped another 12 percent. Last week the community failed to pass a levy to make up the shortfall, so Karen had to begin laying off more employees. The middle school has already been eliminated. The school for those with alternative learning needs has been closed. And now, all sports programs, art classes, extracurricular activities and counselors have been completely eliminated. So yes, I just have to say the President has not supported this and our House colleagues, who do not understand it, have not supported SRS. They have to understand how our Western states are impacted by this. I believe that providing a base level of funding for our counties and schools and encouraging forest jobs and forest management are both things that we need to do. Obviously these things link between the two historically, but I think holding one hostage for the other is not the right idea. What we need to do is give these counties the tools that they need to continue to support the resources that we want, if we want people to live in these communities. So I look forward to working with my colleagues on this. Again, I thank all the witnesses for being here today, and I thank my colleague from Oregon for his leadership in helping us find sources of revenue on this and being such a champion. I look forward to hearing the testimony and getting some solutions for this issue as soon as possible so our communities can continue to make plans for their future. Thank you, Madam Chair. The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. I appreciate how your statement has laid out the real life impact for families and for communities. I think we see this, and we feel it in the West. As I look around our Committee here, I wish we had more of our colleagues who are not from the West, who perhaps do not understand the significant impact. I, too, want to give a further shout out to your efforts, Senator Wyden. You have been aggressive, diligent and dogged on this for years. I look forward to also supporting the efforts that you are making with Senator Hatch and Senator Cantwell in the Finance Committee. I have been told by Senator Hatch that he is committed to making sure that we have got that offset coming out of the Finance Committee, but I look forward to really trying to take some of the stress out of this on an annual basis for these communities and these families. So just thank you for that. I would like to turn to our witnesses. As Senator Cantwell has acknowledged, we have a very full panel. We could have filled up the room with the people who wanted to speak here. We are joined this morning by Olivia Barton Ferriter? Ms. Ferriter. Ferriter. The Chairman. Ferriter, who is the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Budget, Finance, Performance and Acquisition at the U.S. Department of the Interior. Mr. Glenn Casamassa, who is the Associate Deputy Chief for the U.S. Forest Service at the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Thank you for being here. I mentioned Mayor David Landis, who is the Mayor of the Ketchikan Gateway Borough. Thank you for traveling a long way to be here this morning and providing your testimony. I have heard great things from my colleague, Senator Risch, about our next panelist, the Honorable Gordon Cruickshank, who is the Commissioner of Valley County, Idaho. Thank you for joining us this morning. The Honorable Mike Manus, who Senator Cantwell has noted, is a County Commissioner at Pend Oreille County in Washington State. Mr. Mark Haggerty, who is with Headwaters Economics. The panel will be rounded out from a fellow Utahan from Senator Lee's state, the Honorable Mark Whitney, who is President of Utah's Association of Counties, on behalf of the National Association of Counties. It is a distinguished panel. Senator Risch. Senator Risch. Senator Cantwell, did you want to tell her about Pend Oreille or did you want me to? Senator Cantwell. Thank you. I think you just did. [Laughter.] Senator Risch. No offense. The Chairman. Pend Oreille? Senator Risch. Yes, well, that is the American version. The Chairman. Alright, thank you. [Laughter.] Pend Oreille, I stand corrected, proudly. Senator Risch. It is like people calling Boise, Boyzee. There is no z in Boise. The Chairman. We will be the Committee of correct pronunciation. [Laughter.] Senator Cantwell. Yes, well, I am sure you can lay some Alaska terms on us, and we will have a lot of trouble. [Laughter.] The Chairman. I think the Hawaiians tripped us up once, Senator Wyden, if you will recall that one. Let's begin the panel with Ms. Ferriter. I would ask that you try to keep your comments to five minutes. Your full statements will be included as part of the record. Please proceed. STATEMENT OF OLIVIA BARTON FERRITER, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR BUDGET, FINANCE, PERFORMANCE AND ACQUISITION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Ms. Ferriter. Good morning, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell, and members of the Committee. Thank you for inviting me here today on behalf of the Department of the Interior. The Payment In Lieu of Taxes program represents an important way in which the Federal Government can be a good neighbor to local communities. As you know, the PILT program makes payments to local governments to help compensate for their loss of property taxes due to having non-taxable, federal lands within their boundaries. Counties have the flexibility to use PILT payments for any governmental purpose depending on the laws of the individual states. The funds are often used to pay for essential services, such as firefighting, police protection, public schools, roads and search and rescue operations. And I have to say, having these services adjacent to our lands, our parks, our refuges, our public lands, is also very helpful for the Department. The Department of the Interior has distributed more than $7.5 billion in PILT payments to counties since the program began in 1977. In 2016, PILT payments of $452 million went to more than 1,900 counties throughout the Nation. We use a formula provided in law that's based on acreage, population and prior year revenue payments. The acreage amounts and population rates are adjusted each year for inflation. In formulating the payment, we coordinate across Interior's Bureaus with the Forest Service and other federal agencies to ensure we have the accurate acreage data on which to base the payment. We also seek input from the states on the amounts of prior year revenue payments and those that are retained by the counties. We are audited annually on this data. We keep the counties informed of changes, and we post information about the payments publicly to ensure transparency. From Fiscal Year 2008 to Fiscal Year 2012, the full funding for the PILT program was provided under a mandatory authorization. After that, full funding was provided through one year extensions in FY2013 and FY2014. In FY2015, the program received a combination of mandatory and discretionary approps. And in 2016, discretionary funding was appropriated for the program. Now in FY2017, Congress is again appropriating discretionary funding for the PILT program. The Department currently is preparing the necessary calculations to issue payments for the FY2017 PILT program to the counties by June 30th. This concludes my oral statement. You have my full statement for the record, and I'll be happy to answer any questions. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Ms. Ferriter follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] The Chairman. Thank you so very much. Mr. Casamassa. STATEMENT OF GLENN CASAMASSA, ASSOCIATE DEPUTY CHIEF, NATIONAL FOREST SYSTEM, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Mr. Casamassa. Chair Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell, members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to speak with you this morning regarding the Forest Service Administration of the Secure Rural Schools and Community Self- Determination Act, otherwise known as the Secure Rural Schools program. For more than 15 years the program has led to substantial investments in our rural communities and offered a forum for the public to participate collaboratively in the selection of projects on national forests while supporting local economies. The Forest Service has a long history of administering programs to compensate communities in or near our national forests. Soon after the foundation of the modern Forest Service and the National Forest System, Congress enacted the 1908 Act, or what is commonly known as the 25 Percent Act, to compensate local governments for the tax-exempt status of the national forests. In the late 1980's a decline in receipts, particularly a significant drop in timber sales in Western states, led to reduced payments. Payments to states fluctuated from year to year. The unpredictable--unpredictability of payments created hardships and uncertainty for local governments who were trying to budget for schools and other essential services in the community. The decline in timber sales and corresponding reductions in the 25 percent payment was particularly acute in Northern California, Oregon and Washington. To address this concern, Congress provided safety net payments to counties in the states from 1994 to 2003. The safety net payments were enhanced payments structured to decline annually and intended to help the counties transition to the reduced 25 percent. Nearing the end of the program Congress opted to create a new program, Secure Rural Schools, in 2000 and expanded beyond Northern California and the Pacific Northwest. Under Secure Rural Schools a county could elect to continue to receive its share of the state's 25 percent payments or choose to receive a share of the state's full payment amount which was a stabilized amount that would decline over time. It was not based on annual receipts. From 2005 through 2016, the Forest Service distributed $3.78 billion under Title I of Secure Rural Schools. Secure Rural Schools also allowed for the local citizens to advise the Forest Service through participation in Resource Advisory Committees on the development of projects of mutual interest that would benefit the local economy and improve the health of our forests. From 2005 through 2016 approximately $412 million was allocated for projects that maintained existing infrastructure and enhanced the health of forest ecosystems, known as Title II. Finally, SRS supplied funding for essential public services beyond schools and public roads. Since 2008, counties could elect to use a portion of that funding to support activities under the Firewise Community program, request reimbursement for emergency services on national forests or prepare a community wildlife--wildfire protection plan. From 2005 through 2016, over $270 million was allocated to the type of activities under Title III of SRS. Congress has reauthorized SRS multiple times over the last 15 years with the last reauthorization occurring in 2015 for two years. In 2016, the Forest Service made a final distribution of approximately $270 million in funding to 41 states and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. With that reauthorization of Secure Rural Schools, the Forest Service reverted to distributing payments for the 2017 payment under the 1908 Act. The payments distributed to the states in March totaled $54 million. This is roughly 80 percent less than the prior year's payments under the Secure Rural Schools program. For over a decade the Secure Rural Schools program has successfully supported communities and allowed for the development of important, collaborative, working relations between the Forest Service and members of the communities. We recognize the availability of these payments has a profound and significant effect on the budgets of local governments and their ability to provide services to the public. We also understand the importance of continuing to collaborate with the members of communities on important natural resource issues. As such, the Forest Service remains committed to working with the Committee and our partners to collectively advance a cohesive strategy that will support opportunities to work with and invest in communities around their national forests. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. [The prepared statement of Mr. Casamassa follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Casamassa. Mayor Landis, welcome. STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID LANDIS, MAYOR, KETCHIKAN GATEWAY BOROUGH, ALASKA Mr. Landis. Thank you for that welcome and good morning, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell and members of the Committee. For the record, my name is David Landis, Mayor of the Ketchikan Gateway Borough in Alaska. Let me tell you a little bit about the place where the Chairman was born and where I spent most of the last 45 years. The Borough was formed 54 years ago. Our population center of about 14,000 citizens live on an island with no road connections to anywhere. Our land area is very large and difficult to reach. The Borough has a broad range of responsibilities. You've seen these in my written testimony. Some of them, though, are public education, transportation, land use planning, fire protection and EMS and many other functions. So, nationwide nearly 28 percent of the land in the United States is owned by the Federal Government. In our Borough, however, it is 96.7 percent. And I know the Chairman has mentioned this to this Committee several times in the past, but I'm going to repeat it again--96.7 percent of all lands within the Ketchikan Gateway Borough are owned by the Federal Government. All told, the federal land within our boundaries is larger than the entire state of Connecticut. That's not all. In addition to this extensive federal ownership, almost three percent of the Borough's land is owned by other tax exempt organizations. This means that over 99.5 percent of the land in the Borough is categorically exempted from property taxes, leaving less than one half of one percent of the land subject to taxation. That's why some have called us the poster child for these issues. I'm sure it's obvious that these circumstances create major challenges in terms of developing and maintaining an economy and funding local public services. Let me go back in history a little bit for about 90 years, beginning with the creation of the Tongass National Forest in 1907. Residents of Ketchikan have been blessed with the ability to utilize, in responsible and sustainable ways, the abundant natural resources surrounding us, primarily the forest. That ended in the 1990's with shifts in federal land-use policies which were forced upon us and prevented us from utilizing nearly all of the lands in our region. As a result, Chairman Murkowski, the economic foundation upon which the Borough was built on has disintegrated. Fortunately the Federal Government provided SRS payments and PILT payments to provide modest, but very important, measures of compensation for the tax-exempt status of over three million acres of land within the Borough; however, these critical federal support programs have eroded considerably, more than 30 percent in the past eight years alone. We understand that these two programs face real threats to further reductions. And again, that's not all. The tremendous difficulties in funding local services with this lopsided land ownership structure is compounded by the fact that the State of Alaska is presently experiencing the greatest fiscal challenges in its history due to low oil prices and the effects on state revenue. While our state officials have struggled to solve Alaska's fiscal crisis, we've seen ever higher costs being pushed onto boroughs and cities by the State of Alaska, making our financial struggles worse yet. The citizens of the Borough support solutions, though. These may include a revitalization of the timber industry through creation of a state forest, such as what our representative has proposed, or a multi-year funding stream for SRS and PILT programs or others that the Committee may be aware of. In our view, Congress cannot continue to stop reasonable and responsible use of federal lands while reducing the funding designated to offset the tax-exempt status of those lands. Given the circumstances that I've outlined here today, the SRS program which has existed in some form for more than a century and PILT which has existed for four decades are truly vital to maintaining essential public services in the Ketchikan Gateway Borough. These programs recognize that the inability of local governments to collect property taxes on federally-owned lands has a significant financial impact on municipal governments such as ours. So I implore you to recognize that these programs have stood the test of time and are more critical now than ever. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to testify before the Committee this morning. If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them and follow up with any questions for the record. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Landis follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] The Chairman. Mayor, we appreciate you being here and your testimony this morning. Commissioner Cruickshank, welcome. STATEMENT OF HON. GORDON CRUICKSHANK, COMMISSIONER, VALLEY COUNTY, IDAHO Mr. Cruickshank. Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell and distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for holding today's hearing examining federal payments to public land counties and for inviting me to tell my home county's story. My name is Gordon Cruickshank and I'm a lifelong resident and County Commissioner in Valley County, Idaho. Previously I worked for the Valley County road department. We have a population of nearly 10,000 residents. Valley County totals nearly 2.4 million acres and is 88 percent federally administered. Since the advent of our federal land system, Congress has worked to provide revenue sources so counties can carry their governing missions forward, and most notably, through the Payment in Lieu of Taxes and Secure Rural Schools programs. Counties appreciate the full PILT funding included in the Fiscal Year 2017 Omnibus bill. We ask for reauthorization of SRS to ensure federal public land counties receive the funding they need. Under PILT, the Federal Government provides a payment to counties with significant federal lands to make up for lost property tax revenue. Valley County received nearly $750,000 from PILT last year. Valley County uses PILT funding to support law enforcement on Forest Service lands, wages for county employees and other county departmental operations. We are pleased to see full PILT funding in the Fiscal Year 2017 Omnibus bill. Counties are eager to partner with congressional leaders on a long-term funding solution for PILT. After federal timber production dropped in the 1990's, communities like mine faced constant budget shortfalls forcing us to reduce public services. In response, Congress established the Secure Rural Schools program to provide payments to counties impacted by decreased timber production. Today, over nine million schoolchildren rely on SRS to keep teachers in their classrooms and counties need SRS funds to meet their governing missions. In 2015, Valley County received $1.8 million from SRS. SRS was designed to temporarily support counties and schools until timber production increased and sustainable revenue was again produced. Unfortunately, the consistent decline in timber harvest continues. America's counties support reauthorizing SRS to serve as a bridge to a future where timber receipts will provide them a stable revenue stream. Without SRS reauthorization, Valley County will receive a mere $114,000 in the 1908 Act payments this year, a 94 percent cut. This year our county attempted to purchase crushed rock for road construction. We initially budgeted $300,000 but found it would cost almost $800,000. Previously, SRS funds would have allowed us to proceed, but today we do not have the extra money. Furthermore, if Congress does not reauthorize SRS, the PILT calculation changes. SRS funds would not be deducted from the PILT formula forcing PILT alone to cover more federal acreage, leading to dramatically reduced payments. While Valley County's PILT payment would have increased by $235,000 without the 2015 reauthorization, we would still need to find $1.5 million to make up a difference from SRS expiring, a near impossible task with such a small base. Years ago, Central Idaho had four major sawmills and one small sawmill. Today, only one sawmill remains open. This caused Central Idaho many good paying jobs, but also contributed to the declining health of our forests and the catastrophic fires we see too often throughout the West. These fires make it impossible for land management agencies to meet their core missions due to fire borrowing, the practice of pulling money from ongoing projects to fight wildfires. In 2015, $700 million was pulled from forest management for firefighting. Congress must act to permanently solve fire borrowing. Counties have proven they are a willing, innovative partner to change the way our national forests are managed. Idaho counties developed a pilot project, known as the Community Forest Trust. The goal, ultimately, is to designate specific federal forest lands within Idaho as a Community Forest Trust that would be managed in trust for local counties. The Idaho Department of Lands would manage the forest lands while the Federal Government retained ownership. Legislation to establish the Community Forest Trust pilot project passed the U.S. House of Representatives in 2013. We can work together on environmentally sound forest management solutions to reduce the threat of wildfire and produce new revenues for counties. Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell, thank you for inviting me to testify. We are happy to partner with the Committee on legislation to continue full funding of PILT, to reauthorize the Secure Rural Schools program until our national forests become productive. We hope the Committee works to address both fire borrowing and forest management practices in the 115th Congress as well. With the decline in timber harvests, reduction of SRS payments and the ever growing threat of catastrophic wildfire, something must be done to protect counties. We stand ready to assist. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Cruickshank follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Cruickshank. We do agree something must be done. Let's go to Commissioner Manus. STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE MANUS, COMMISSIONER, PEND OREILLE COUNTY, WASHINGTON Mr. Manus. Good morning, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell and members of the Committee. My name is Mike Manus. I'm a County Commissioner from Pend Oreille County, Washington State, home of 530 acres of the Colville National Forest and a portion of the Idaho Panhandle National Forest. That is 58 percent of our total land mass in the county. As a small rural county of 13,000 people, we have survived on our ability to use our natural resources as a form of employment, recreation and tourism due to the sheer beauty they provide. Now those same beautiful forests are a detriment attributed to being poorly managed and are at risk of severe fire. As a board member of the Washington State Association of Counties, WSAC, I am grateful to the Committee for this opportunity to share my views on behalf of the Evergreen Forest County group in Washington State and National Forest Counties and Schools Coalition. Losing SRS is hurting us in many ways. First, the county road department has two grants totaling $2.7 million, requiring a $316,000 match. It would be a travesty for our county to refuse these grants and repay the money already spent on design but that's where we're at. In 2015, Pend Oreille County endured several large wildfires, all started naturally, on U.S. Forest System land. The county employees were stretched because of these fires. There was no compensation to cover lost revenues to businesses and tourism came to a halt. I specifically want to thank Senator Cantwell's unwavering efforts to help Pend Oreille County recover from this tragedy and for her work to reform fire borrowing. Senators, our population growth is stagnant and our economy is flat. We have one of the highest unemployment rates in Washington State at nine percent. Our poverty continues to climb. Schools and counties are constantly reminded that SRS was meant to be temporary as each local economy diversified itself into mini silicon valleys divorced of the historic reality of timber-based economies. That hasn't happened. In Congress today there has developed among some a twisted logic that if counties are deprived of SRS payments, somehow that will motivate Congress to enact new active management and the fire borrowing reform bill. In fact, it's the schoolchildren in rural counties who suffer from such thinking. We need a long-term, active forest management, fire borrowing reform bill passed soon. But please, do not hold schools and counties hostage in the meantime. By way of background, the State of Washington, following Wisconsin's amazing success, has just signed an agreement with the Forest Service to implement Good Neighbor Authority. Washington's DNR produces 500 percent more timber revenue on one quarter of the land base of that held by the U.S. Forest Service. I declare it is schoolchildren and county services that suffer because of Congress' failure to pass SRS, active national forest management and fire borrowing reform legislation. Until Congress acts to put in place those legislative solutions, counties must have SRS payments continue for at least five to ten years, just to see if the reforms, once passed, work and stabilize national forest dependent economies. We must first see if the private sector will invest in new sawmills and infrastructure. Congress should create a sliding scale. As revenues from timber harvest increase to sustainable levels, only then should SRS be reduced and ultimately eliminated. Congress caused this problem. Congress can solve this problem. We should no longer be used as pawns in a House/Senate chess game that leaves us guessing about whether SRS funding from one year to the next will be available. There is a ticking time bomb members of this Committee must be aware of. If SRS goes and is no longer calculated as a prior year payment deduction under the PILT formula, the Congressional Research Service has told us Pacific Northwest timber counties will be entitled to receive full PILT payments. That increase will not come close to offsetting the loss from SRS payments, but it will be taken away from those intermountain west counties in need of SRS. There will be a seismic shift in the way PILT payments are made if Congress fails to extend SRS. It will be a lose/lose proposition as new PILT funds heading toward the timber counties fail to remotely come close to existing SRS payments and as desert and prairie counties and Alaska's non-forest boroughs lose 20 percent or more of existing PILT payments. No one will escape the carnage. One last point involves change to the SRS Title II and Title III funds as currently administered. I offered in my written testimony specific ways to change this. I look forward to working with you to pass legislation that will enhance our national forests, prevent catastrophic wildfires and secure permanent PILT funding and funds to bridge the gap for the interim for SRS. We all need your support to protect our environment, enhance our economy, educate our youth, to build our roads and assist our emergency responders. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Manus follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] The Chairman. Thank you, Commissioner. Mr. Haggerty, welcome. STATEMENT OF MARK HAGGERTY, HEADWATERS ECONOMICS Mr. Haggerty. Thank you, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell and members of the Committee. I'm pleased to join you today to discuss the need to provide greater fiscal certainty to counties with federal lands. I want to use my time today to describe an idea that could offer greater fiscal certainty to local governments: building an endowment for counties and their schools by creating a permanent trust funded with commercial receipts from federal lands. Such an endowment would fund a long-term reauthorization of Secure Rural Schools and Community Self-Determination Act. While SRS has funded critical rural infrastructure and services for 15 years, it has become clear that asking Congress to reauthorize SRS annually without a long-term funding plan in place is an untenable position. Annual revenue sharing payments are permanently authorized but relying on increased timber harvest is not a solution by itself that improves fiscal certainty and would fall short of keeping most counties whole with respect to SRS. Creating a permanent trust combines these two approaches to create a permanent and stable funding source and ensure predictable and rising payments to counties year over year. A key difference between the permanent trust model and annual revenue sharing is that a trust stabilizes revenues over time insulating counties from uncertainty and inequity associated with annual revenue sharing payments. Continuing SRS payments would keep counties whole and the endowment would lower the cost of SRS each year until congressional funding is no longer necessary. Permanent funds are commonly used by states across the West that have a fiduciary responsibility to manage state lands to generate revenue for schools. Alaska, Louisiana, Texas, Wyoming and others have trust funds with a combined value of more than $100 billion. The Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management are also essentially being asked to manage federal lands to generate revenue for local governments, including schools. A permanent trust could be the right approach for these lands too. There's a growing body of research and experience that suggests becoming too reliant on uncertain revenue from natural resources can, over time, expose rural counties to greater risk of fiscal crisis. For example, Clearwater County, Idaho, where I visited last week, is working to retain regional mill capacity and skilled workers to do needed forest restoration and maintain a viable commercial logging industry. And they're working to diversify their economy. Declining school enrollment and budget cuts have jeopardized the gifted and talented programs, shop, art and music classes and the school district is now on a four-day week and cannot support all day kindergarten. Losing SRS and less than full funding for PILT would require deeper cuts. The cuts are looming as the county, like others across the U.S., are being asked to take on increasing responsibilities, including in coordinating economic development activities. Attracting and retaining families and businesses in rural communities will become increasingly difficult without good schools, road infrastructure and quality services. The current system of county payments is broken. The annual battle of appropriations needs to end and counties deserve predictable and stable payments. A new permanent trust at the federal level that would remake the fiscal relationship between federal lands and counties could resolve these issues. If a permanent trust is established, receipts would be deposited into the trust instead of being shared with counties on an annual basis. The principle balance of the trust would be held in perpetuity and invested to earn income. An independent entity, such as the National Forest Foundation, could establish and manage the permanent trust with oversight from Congress and the Administration. At the end of each fiscal year, a distribution would be credited to the U.S. Treasury to offset the cost of authorized appropriations while a portion of the distribution could also be sent forward to counties annually. How permanently or how quickly a permanent trust could replace annual revenue sharing payments and SRS would depend on how much is invested into the trust every year. How long the principle balance is invested before it starts making distributions and Congress could also make a one-time appropriation up front to capitalize the trust. Had Congress established a trust in 2000, today it would be worth $1.2 to $1.5 billion. It would be able to make annual distributions equal to or greater than current levels of annual commercial receipts. In other words, counties would already be better off with predictable and stable distributions from a trust that match or exceed current revenue sharing payments. I look forward to continued discussions. And I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have. [The prepared statement of Mr. Haggerty follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Haggerty. And last, we will turn to Mr. Whitney, welcome. STATEMENT OF HON. MARK WHITNEY, COMMISSIONER, BEAVER COUNTY, UTAH, AND PRESIDENT, UTAH ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES Mr. Whitney. Thank you and good morning, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell and members of the Committee. Thank you for holding today's timely hearing to examine federal payments to local governments provided through the Secure Rural Schools and Payments in Lieu of Taxes programs and for inviting me to testify today on behalf of the National Association of Counties. My name is Mark Whitney, and I serve on the Beaver County, Utah Board of County Commissioners. I'm also the current President of the Utah Association of Counties. And I have personally seen, first-hand, the challenges public lands and federal forest counties face as we seek to provide a residence with essential services in the face of strict revenue and budgetary constraints. Beaver County has a population of approximately 6,700 people and spans an area of over 1.6 million acres, nearly 1.3 million acres or more than 77 percent is owned by the Federal Government. And my county is not alone. Sixty-two percent of counties nationwide have federal land within our boundaries and federal policies have direct impact on our communities. There are two key programs that assist federal lands counties to provide services, not only to residents and visitors of the federal land, but also to provide services on that land. For over 40 years, PILT has assisted counties to offset losses in tax revenues due to the presence of substantial acreage of federal land in our jurisdictions. Since we cannot tax the property values or products derived from federal lands, these payments are critical to support essential government services mandated by law like first responders and emergency services, transportation infrastructure, law enforcement, education and health care in nearly 2,000 counties. Nearly 78 percent of Beaver County is eligible for PILT. Last year for nearly 1.3 million acres of PILT and entitlement land within our county's borders, the Interior Department paid us about 75 cents per acre. Overall PILT funding accounts for approximately ten percent of our county's annual budget. Moving forward we continue to urge leadership on both sides of the aisle to develop a fully responsible, long-term and sustainable legislative solution to fully fund PILT and eliminate the ongoing funding uncertainty currently facing public lands counties. The Secure Rural Schools program is equally critical to us and aids over 700 counties, parishes and boroughs and over 4,000 school districts affected by the decline in revenue from timber harvest on federal lands. These payments help ensure the students receive education services and that we can maintain our roads and bridges and provide emergency services for our citizens. If SRS is not immediately reauthorized we will again be forced to make drastic cuts to the services on which our residents rely. For example, only three percent of the land in, my neighbor to the south, Garfield County is taxable. That is not a large enough tax base to sustain the services the residents need. SRS is an indispensable component of meeting those needs. Without SRS counties and school districts are forced to lay off staff, reduce services and make drastic cuts that weaken our communities. And do not forget that PILT and SRS are intertwined. If Congress does not reauthorize SRS, counties receiving PILT could face reduced payments because a previous year's SRS would no longer be deducted under the PILT formula. For Utah alone, our PILT payment would be reduced by 25 percent. For my county, it would mean almost a 40 percent cut. Counties urge you to reauthorize SRS as you work to reform forest management. And finally, I cannot stress enough, we need a stronger federal partner when it comes to management of our nation's federal forests. The health of our forests continues to decline, fire risk is increasing, and without treatment of active management useable timber is quickly declining. Counties need full coordination with our federal partners to improve the health of our forests, increase the economic well-being of our communities and mitigate the risk of fires. Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to share Beaver County's story. We look forward to working with you to develop and pass legislation to fully fund PILT and reauthorize SRS now. Thank you again. I welcome any questions y'all have. [The prepared statement of Mr. Whitney follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] The Chairman. Mr. Whitney, thank you very much. We appreciate all that you have delivered. You clearly laid the case for why PILT and SRS are so important to our rural counties, whether it is three percent as you suggest in the county neighboring yours, Mr. Whitney, or the one half of one percent that is available in terms of a taxable land base. It is pretty tough to dispute the fact that it is hard to squeeze revenues out of these areas that are managed by our federal landlords, so to speak. I want to ask a quick question of Mr. Casamassa. This relates to how we are managing the Tongass. I think we have heard from my colleague here in Washington, Senator Cantwell, that you have a situation where you are seeing lands that are managed much more sustainably and they are able to produce significantly more timber revenue than the Forest Service is able to do in a state like Alaska, and yet, far less of a land base there. Mr. Manus, you had highlighted the fact that Washington has been able to use 2.1 million acres to yield a harvest of 560 million board feet, generating 220 million board feet in Washington. I think Mayor Landis would be envious of that. I know that I am. In our state, as I mentioned, we harvested just three million board feet last year. Over the last ten years we have averaged about 35 million board feet. Again, we are talking about the Tongass, which has 17 million acres. You can see why, as Mayor Landis suggested, they are looking to different opportunities such as the creation of a state forest. Why are we having such a hard time here increasing the work that could be done within our national forests, both in terms of forest health, because we have heard many members address that this morning, as well as the commercial timber production? Why aren't we doing what, most will say, we need to be doing? Mr. Casamassa. Well, Chairman Murkowski, certainly the Forest Service has, to a degree, increased our overall hazard fuel reduction across the landscape over the course of the last decade. We, last year alone, offered and sold about 2.9 billion board feet. And we continue to look for ways to increase our ability to provide for and respond to the needs of the various communities and counties that we serve. The Chairman. In terms of what the Forest Service spends to prepare and implement a timber sale, why is it so out of alignment? I am told that Forest Service spends $100 or more per million board feet to prepare and implement a timber sale while a state sale, on average, costs only $25 per million board feet. It just does not line up here. Why? Mr. Casamassa. I certainly appreciate that, those comparisons. Clearly the states have a different mandate by which they support and implement forest management. The Forest Service has a different mandate, has to balance a wider array of resources. The Chairman. But do you think that a discrepancy that is that wide, $100 per million board feet versus $25 per million board feet, do you think that justifies that discrepancy? You say that the federal mandate is different than the state mandate. At the end of the day, what you are doing is you are ensuring for a level of timber harvest. You are doing it in a responsive way, working to meet very clear environmental standards that are set. I think that whether you are the State of Alaska or the State of Washington or the State of Oregon, you want to make sure that you have done it responsibly. Does it really make sense to have that kind of a differential? Mr. Casamassa. Well, I think that overall, we are taking a look at and we are being a bit more streamlined with our approach to how we lay out and do the work associated with cruising and contract preparation for our timber sales. And we are seeing some reductions in the overall prep costs, but clearly, not to the degree that, you know, in comparison to what you just provided with respect to the $25 versus $100 of the preparation. The Chairman. It just seems to me that we could learn from some of the states in how they are able to manage and manage in a way that gives more benefit, ultimately, while at the same time, making sure that it is done, harvested responsibly. Mr. Casamassa. And I think to answer that question, put a finer point on the authorities that we have. Good neighbor authority is one of those ways that, I think, we continue to collaborate with and work with the states to streamline process and be more effective in the approach to how we go about offering sales, managing and managing national forest system lands. The Chairman. Well, we will continue the discussion. Senator Cantwell. Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to get, if I could, the witnesses on record about whether we should fix this SRS problem now, ASAP, and not wait for other discussions. I find, oftentimes, that SRS gets held hostage to doing two or three other things first, and so I just want to understand from the witnesses whether they think we should just get this done so that we can give counties certainty right now or wait for this to be paired with forest management legislation. I actually want to hear what everybody has to say. Mr. Manus. Yes, we need to get SRS in the system as soon as possible. It's a detriment to all the counties, school districts, as you mentioned, Senator. The young lady in the back of me here is from Skamania County. The shortfall she's facing in her school district is intolerable, and they need help right now. Senator Cantwell. Thank you. Mr. Manus. We can fix the other issues at another point in time, hopefully, in the same session, but on another bill. Senator Cantwell. Thank you. Mr. Manus. Thank you. Senator Cantwell. Other witnesses? Mr. Haggerty? Mr. Whitney? Yes? Mr. Cruickshank. Yes, thank you for the question, Senator Cantwell. Most school districts are in the budget process right now. They work on a July 1 to June 30th cycle, and I'm constantly receiving calls from our school districts saying, where is SRS? You know, they're looking at that so that they're not having to do those layoffs. And for counties with road departments, like ours, right now we're looking at what do we do next year--with a 40 percent cut in our budget. So, SRS is very important to the schools to have it reauthorized immediately and in the short-term. Counties are going to be looking for SRS. So, thank you for the question. Senator Cantwell. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Whitney? Mr. Whitney. Thank you for that question, again, Senator Cantwell. On behalf of the National Association of Counties and also my own county, SRS is so pivotal to the survival of our school districts, especially in these rural counties that depend on active forest management, but that management is not really there today. So, we have to have a bridge to get to the point in the future when we again have active forest management. We have to have this funding because these schools, every one of them--my own school district included, will suffer if SRS is not funded. There will be no music programs; there will be sports programs that are cut out; teachers laid off. This has a devastating effect all across the country. So, thank you. Senator Cantwell. Thank you. Thank you for your response. Thank you, Madam Chair. The Chairman. Mayor Landis--he was going to weigh in. Mr. Landis. Just very briefly, thank you, Senator Cantwell. I do believe, also, that it needs to be reauthorized and funded quickly and solved quickly. And the reason, specifically, is that the funding is going down drastically and looking at a graph where it's steeply declined; and for our SRS funding, it's $1.7 million down to, we project, $750,000 this year. I think we need to stick a pin in this and not get used to starving and make that the norm. So, before it gets too much more degraded, I think that we should have a solution. Thank you. Senator Cantwell. Thank you. I thank all the witnesses for that. I tried to leave it off with you, Mr. Whitney, because I wasn't meaning to let Mr. Landis not weigh in here. But the issue, I think you said it best, we've got to quit fooling around with this and acting like it can't be solved until something else is solved when in reality, we need to solve this first and then we can get to these other discussions. And I am happy to have them. I think that is exactly what the Pine pilot is, a strategy that tries to get access to more board feet and solve some of our forest fire borrowing problems. Thank you, Madam Chair. The Chairman. Thank you. Senator Daines. Senator Daines. Thank you, Chair Murkowski and Ranking Member Cantwell, for having this important and timely hearing. I hear from Montana counties every year. In fact, at the moment, about every hour, about their frustration with the uncertainty that is being created with the appropriations process and regarding PILT and the Secure Rural Schools program. You know, I spent 28 years in the private sector before coming up to Congress. It is hard to believe that we are now 7 months into the fiscal year of the Federal Government and we have not passed all the appropriations bills. And I can guarantee you, in about four more months, we will be right back here in debate having the drama about CRs, about shutdowns, and so forth here because this institution cannot pass appropriations bills. It is ridiculous, it really is. It is such a broken process. I worked at Proctor and Gamble for 13 years. I was in the health and beauty care business, in the shampoos. This reminds me of lather, rinse, repeat, over and over again here in Washington. With SRS in particular, since the program has expired, I mean, it is ridiculous. This is a program that expired. Our counties are counting on it, and this program expired a couple years ago. Forest management remains woefully inadequate, and that is really the root cause here to get back to proper management of our public lands. Our counties recently received only a small fraction under the previous and historic 25 percent formula compared to what they had been receiving under SRS. My county commissioners in Montana--and if you want to talk about what local government is all about, I think you look at our county commissioners. They are really the cool face of the decision-making, every pothole, every complaint, comes to those county commissioners. They are true public servants. They have told me that this sharp cut will result in layoffs and fewer road and school projects being completed because this institution can't get its act together in Washington, DC. Our Montana counties are frustrated with the pace and the scale of active forest management. Let's not forget we have got the problem with SRS and with PILT. But that is, in some ways, a bandaid that is covering up the real problem here is what once upon a time we used to have active forest management and revenues coming to our counties. It is unfair to our counties in rural America to keep them in limbo each year in appropriations, while doing nothing to improve the management of our federal lands. I certainly support reauthorizing SRS. Count me in with both feet as supporting it. At the same time, it is absolutely paramount that this Committee and this Congress pass strong forest management reform legislation that restores active management to our national forests, because an actively managed national forest is a healthier forest. It reduces wildfire risk. It is better for wildlife habitat. I spent a lot of time in the back country. We need to get back to active management, and we need to address the chronic litigation from fringe groups which has stopped us in our tracks in Montana so many times. Mr. Whitney, you spoke to the need to restore active forest management in your testimony. Can you elaborate on the economic and environmental benefits to increasing the pace and the scale of management? Mr. Whitney. Thank you for that question, Senator Daines. Active forest management is so critical. It's--without the management we risk more forest fires. With the management, we can harvest timber, making them healthy forests, making our counties vibrant again. The rule is, I think, it's 25 percent of all receipts that come off these Forest Service lands on timber harvest go to counties and school districts. So, it is pivotal. I can't express that enough. Senator Daines. Commissioner Manus, I understand that Pend Oreille County is concerned about the fringe litigation against the collaboratively developed A to Z project in the Colville National Forest. Montana knows all too well how fringe litigators can block responsible forest management. While I know you cannot speak specifically about the active lawsuit, can you talk generally about how litigation needlessly slows forest management and undermines the work of collaborative groups? Mr. Manus. Thank you for that question, Senator Daines. We are involved in litigation currently. The county signed on with the Forest Service and with our collaborative group out of Spokane, including the Lands Council, in responding to litigation to help the A to Z project move forward. Currently, we are scheduled on June 13th to be in the Ninth Circuit Court. Hopefully this will end the litigation. So far, we've been able to prevail. The county signed on with American Forestry Resource Council, and the beauty of that program was it didn't cost us any money. They defended us on that litigation. We have a collaborative in the Colville National Forest called NEWFC, Northeast Washington Forest Coalition, that has worked very hard on this timber sale, the A-to-Z, which is a new model that we hope to use in the future. It's a very large timber sale. Through that effort the collaborative group came up with a great sale, and it was litigated by a group out of Montana that, as far as I'm concerned, should not have standing because they weren't at the table when this process was being made. Senator Daines. Most of those litigators are not. Mr. Manus. And that should change. Senator Daines. I agree. Thank you. Mr. Manus. Thank you. The Chairman. Senator Wyden. Senator Wyden. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you and Senator Cantwell for spearheading this effort. Clearly the sense of urgency that we are seeing from the witnesses, Senator Cantwell reflected in her question and your comments, is the heart of the challenge, the immediate challenge. I think what I want to do, because we have all sympathizers here from the West, is try to put this in a little bit of context. The first question I want to direct to you, Mr. Casamassa. On December 23rd of 2014, Forest Service Chief Tidwell, in response to my question, said that you would have to have a sixfold increase over the current harvest to equal the value of the Secure Rural Schools payments receipt. Do you disagree with what the Chief had to say then? Mr. Casamassa. Senator Wyden, no. I think that there is a formula that you could follow that would then look at the receipts, the SRS payments, then the difference between the receipts generated and the payments and then formulaically calculate to the degree necessary that there would have to be an increase. Senator Wyden. My time is a little short. But you do not disagree with what the Chief said? Mr. Casamassa. No, I do not. Senator Wyden. Colleagues, this, in my view, is the heart of the challenge because when I look around this room we all think that you have to fight this battle on several fronts. The reason we feel so strongly about Secure Rural Schools and the urgency is without it, we are not going to keep the doors open in much of rural America. That is what was coming out in the early questions. That is why Senator Craig and I wrote this bill in 1999, and I am not sure most of the Senate even knew who I was. I had just arrived. So it was brand new, but that was the key to keep the doors open. All of us here support increasing the harvest in a sustainable way and that is active management. Okay? So that is kind of tier II. And all of us support changing this crazy, absolutely bonkers program of funding firefighting that we call ``fire borrowing.'' Senator Crapo and I have had a bill with 200 citizens' groups. I support the efforts our Chair and our Vice Chair, Senator Cantwell, have been involved in. We are all in on the whole agenda but the heart of it has got to be keeping the doors open because if you do not keep the doors open, everything else goes by the wayside. That is what is behind the urgency. So I want to make one other substantive point with you, Mr. Casamassa. Back over the years, when I was Chair and Senator Murkowski was Ranking Member, we talked a lot about it. People always say, hey, you know, this thing they did in 1999 was kind of a welfare program and it was supposed to phase out. That is not accurate. From the very get-go, Title II was about county payments but also about active management, and Title II funds programs like reducing hazardous forest fuels. That is what keeps communities safe is reducing those fuels. That is what Senator Cantwell wants to do with that model project. It was about reducing hazardous fuels and about the county payments, a safety net portion. Mr. Casamassa, could you get us a list of the projects done under Title II that address this active management issue, because I cannot tell you how many times people tell me, oh Ron, you did something good back in 1999 and the air was pure and the oxen had big heads and, you know, all that. But this is a different day. That is not the history of this program. The history of this program was to use Title II, in particular, to help communities find common ground. You had environmentalist folks, you had timber industry people, and they have done so. Could you get us a list of the active management programs that are funded under Title II? Mr. Casamassa. Yes, we can, Senator. Senator Wyden. Great. Madam Chair, I so appreciate you are doing this now. This is the key time window. As you know, Senator Cantwell and I are on the Finance Committee. We are deeply committed to working with you and Chairman Hatch in getting a payment kind of process. But so colleagues know, this is not one of these deals where they are mutually exclusive, where you do one or the other. We are all in on all of the key parts which is active management, keeping the doors open and ending this bonkers system of fighting fire borrowing. I am over my time, Madam Chair, but thank you. You and I have been at this for a lot of years, and I think under the leadership of you and Senator Cantwell and all the colleagues here we could put this thing to rest now. The Chairman. I thank you for that. I think it is particularly important and relevant that you speak to the history of the program and why it was put in place in the first place so that it is well and clearly understood. So again, thank you and we look forward to working with you on these really urgent issues. Senator Risch. Senator Risch. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. Unfortunately, it is all of us talking to each other. Everybody in this room knows what the problem is, and it is a really, really serious problem. We are fortunate to have the world's leading authority on SRS here. I say that in good humor, but I am serious about that, Senator Wyden. You have been a champion of this. You fly the flag for this, and we all sincerely appreciate it. What I want to talk about is that it is a solution. And Senator Cantwell is absolutely right. These counties need help right now. I mean, we need to pass this and it needs to be done right now. The problem with that is when Congress does that, we do the reauthorization. It will be for a few years or something like that and then we are going to be right back in the same situation again. I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. I think we can do that, but I think we really need to talk about a long-term solution. Senator Wyden, you are notorious for thinking outside the box, and that's really what brought us SRS in the first place. You have rightfully acknowledged that this is not 1999. I think the foundation that this was built on has changed dramatically since 1999, and that is simply forest harvest. If you look at a bar chart about how many million board feet come off, it is so different today than it was in 1999. So what can we do about this? Well, the solution actually is at hand. And for us who are concerned about this, the Western states that have these issues, we can do this. This is a bipartisan issue and should be done on a bipartisan basis. I think a foundation to talk about this is the Community Trust Act that actually passed the House. Now it is not exactly the way I would do it, but let me tell you what the foundation of the thinking for that is. It is similar to what Mr. Haggerty put on the table, and that is to have a separate funding mechanism for funding this over the long haul on a permanent basis. I would disagree with him on having a third party and a big national endowment. These things are better done on the state level. The states are really good at that, and I can prove it. Finally, for the year that we have statistics available, the State of Idaho State Lands Department manages 1.5 million acres of land. From that, they harvested and generated on a sustained basis $330 million. The United States Forest Service manages a little over 22 million acres in the State of Idaho. That same year that the state got $330 million off 1.5 million, the Federal Government received $75 million off 22 million acres of federal grounds. Now admittedly, you are going to say, well, yes, but there is a lot of wilderness area in there and that is all true. Nonetheless, on timber-producing grounds, we far outstripped the Federal Government. Mr. Casamassa is right. They have a different mission. They have different responsibilities. But it is not that wide, as the Chairman pointed out. So let's look to the states to do that. And this Community Trust bill is a good starting point. Like I said, there are ways I would do it differently and the main suggestion I would have for the Community Trust bill is what--Gordon, correct me if I am wrong here--200,000 acres in Idaho for the trust to generate income on? Mr. Cruickshank. That's correct. Senator Risch. Okay. Mr. Cruickshank. On that 200,000 acres, if it's done sustainably, would take care of ten percent of our SRS funds. Senator Risch. That 200,000 acres makes up less than one percent of the federal ground. Now the environmental community is concerned on two fronts. Number one, they think this is just the first step of transferring title to the states. We have to assure them that that is an issue that should not get bound up in this and it has, really, nothing to do with this. The second thing is the environmental community, at least in Idaho, most of them, not all of them, but the vast majority of them, have proven themselves to be responsible people as far as doing what they want to do. They ought to be involved in identifying the 200,000 acres so that it is a collaborative effort that identifies the 200,000 acres. And it ought to be a collaborative effort that moves forward, that is, managed by the State Lands Department, but also has at least an advisory committee that is made up of a broad spectrum of stakeholders on the national lands. If you did that, I think you could put in place a permanent way of taking care of the SRS. Senator Wyden, I throw this out for your consideration because I know how good you are thinking outside the box. Senator Wyden. Madam Chair? The Chairman. Senator Wyden. Senator Wyden. Can I just take 30 seconds to respond? I know colleagues are waiting. Ryan Zinke, the new Secretary of the Interior, has said that he is not for widespread state transfer from federal to state. Senator Risch. And we all know that is not going to happen. Senator Wyden. I guess my only point is there are a whole lot of models out there. Senator Cantwell has a very good one in Washington State. We have one from Oregon that would double the harvest on a sustainable basis, every year for 50 years, and we have environmental support. We want to work with you but when Ryan Zinke, the new Secretary of the Interior, says he is not for state transfer, I think that sends a message. Senator Risch. Well, it does. It is a practical message because people talk about this, but there is never going to be a wholesale transfer. It simply is not going to happen. As much as people would like it to happen, as much, regardless of what side you are on, you have got to face the realities of it. If you do something like the Community Trust bill or like your provision or Senator Cantwell's, you get to some ground that you might be able to make. My time is up and I thank you, Madam Chairman, but again, this is a problem for this Committee on a very bipartisan basis for people who have large percentage holdings of federal land. We can do this. Thank you. The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Risch. I appreciate the conversation and the dialogue. I think this is exactly the type of discussion that we need to build on a bipartisan basis that is going to lead to a different result, because we have been doing the same thing for a long time and our communities are freaked out just about every year as they deal with the uncertainty. Let's go to Senator Heinrich. Senator Heinrich. Madam Chair, I learned from our colleague from Maine, that Maine is apparently the most heavily forested state in the nation. What I appreciate about Senator King being here is that if you look around this dais today, you don't see a lot of Easterners here and that is part of the problem. I want to really recognize the effort of everyone who is here focusing on this issue. We have got to get this done. But I especially appreciate it when our members from back east show up for these things because this is, sort of, a do-or-die situation for us. The Chairman. We do appreciate Senator King. Senator King. I do want to enter into this discussion. Thank you. The Chairman. Thank you. We look forward to that. Senator Heinrich. I do not think it is any secret that rural communities around the country are struggling, and it is certainly true in New Mexico. I think the last thing we should be doing is pulling the rug out from under them by ending the Secure Rural Schools program. Now, before it expired, SRS provided funds for schools and roads and public safety in counties with national forests. But in truth, the impact of these funds, as our witnesses can attest, is much broader than that because counties now have to fill in their school and road budgets from their general funds and that means they are unable to meet other critical needs. I want to share just a couple examples from New Mexico, in particular. Sierra County in New Mexico was planning to start a new mental health program in the county, a desperately needed program in an underserved area. But now, because their county payment was cut from $154,000 to only $6,000, they have had to redirect the funds from mental health into law enforcement and road projects that would have been covered by SRS. In Cibola County, county officials have had to eliminate all road improvement projects. Let me say that again, eliminate ALL road improvement projects. They will even need to cut back on routine maintenance on school bus routes. This means that people in the far reaches of that county are more likely to get trapped at home in bad weather and school buses are more likely to get stuck on poorly maintained roads. This is simply not sustainable. We cannot leave rural communities hanging on while we debate forest policy here in Washington. Rural counties need these programs. They need them to be reliable and they need them now. Ms. Ferriter, I want to go back to something, and we have talked about this a little bit, but I think it is going to be really important for our colleagues to understand. In New Mexico and a number of the other states, we have counties that receive PILT but not SRS. But even those counties are deeply concerned about the expiration of SRS, and that is because PILT payments will have to increase for counties who used to receive funds from both programs because the PILT formula includes an offset for those SRS funds. Could either you or Mr. Casamassa walk us through, very explicitly, the intersection of these two programs and, in the absence of SRS, will we simply need to increase PILT appropriations and if so, by how much, if we were to make those counties whole? Ms. Ferriter. Thank you for the question. And you are correct that the having SRS not authorized will impact the PILT. It won't impact for FY2017, but it will for 2018. And the reason is because for the counties that do receive the SRS when we do the PILT calculation those SRS funds are taken into consideration. So, if SRS is not reauthorized, it's going to mean that the PILT, the statutory calculation for PILT, would be expected to go up and it means that more counties would be looking to have a slice of the PILT pie. Senator Heinrich. Mr. Casamassa, do you want to add anything to that-- Mr. Casamassa. No, I think that certainly sums it up. There is that they are both inextricably linked, PILT and SRS, when it comes to those counties that have national forest land in them. So they are linked, and it's directly proportional to PILT payments if you do not have the SRS there. Senator Heinrich. And obviously a lot of us in the intermountain West have counties where there are primarily BLM lands, for example. They are just as impacted because of this rob-Peter-to-pay-Paul sort of situation. Commissioner? Mr. Cruickshank. Senator Heinrich, I just have to say this that the calculations that the counties have worked out is that the SRS is not taken away from or doesn't take away from the PILT. The PILT would need another $161 million to fully fund all the counties, to keep all the counties whole. Thank you. Senator Heinrich. No, I appreciate that very much. And I want to say, once again, thank you to the Chair and the Ranking Member. There are not a lot of issues like this where we find this much unanimity on the Committee, so I think it is incumbent upon all of us to make this right. Thank you, Madam Chair. The Chairman. Senator Risch and I were just discussing that there is a lot of opportunity here to work to find a solution and have that solution be long-term and enduring. Thank you. Senator Lee. Senator Lee. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to welcome to our Committee again, my friend, Mark Whitney, who in addition to being just a fantastic citizen of Utah, has served his county for more than a dozen years as a Commissioner and is now the head of the Utah Association of Counties, which is a big deal. We are honored to have you here, sir. I think the problem that we face with PILT, the Payment in Lieu of Taxes program, is a classic problem of Washington's creation. It is a classic Washington solution in the sense that it is, sort of, no solution at all. There is a problem in that there are states, and Utah is one of those states, where the Federal Government owns a lot of land. In Utah, it happens to be two-thirds of the land. And because the Federal Government has exempted itself from property taxes, this leaves counties throughout my state with an inability to collect a source of revenue that they rely on to fund everything from police and search and rescue services, to road maintenance and schools--and this ends up creating a big problem. To deal with that problem, Congress has come up with PILT and uses a formula, a formula it may or may not use at any given moment, and then leaves the states subject to the will and whim of Congress as to when, whether, to what extent, and how to follow through on its plan to provide these payments in lieu of property taxes. But again, this is not really a solution at all because it leaves most of our counties impoverished. It leaves most of our counties without the ability to collect anything close to the amount of revenue that they would collect if they could tax that land, even at the lowest rates. Last year, 56 Senators--56 members of the U.S. Senate-- voted in favor of my proposed amendment to the PILT program. This is an amendment that would give counties the option of collecting PILT revenue at the level they would have received if but for federal ownership of land in their county. I would like to note that these were not all Republican votes. There was some bipartisan support for the bill, including at least one member of this Committee, Senator Manchin from West Virginia, who voted for it. Mr. Whitney, if Beaver County's PILT payment more accurately reflected the obligations imposed upon your county, what would you be able to do with that money? Mr. Whitney. Thank you for that question, Senator Lee. There are many things that we could do in our county. It takes everything we've got. We've got over 900 miles of roads that we have to take care of with only 6,300 or 6,700 citizens. Only 100, roughly 130 of those, qualify for B and C road funds from the state. So the rest of it has to come out of our general fund or PILT. We are not able to keep those roads at a maximum level of safety. We need to increase them. There are many things that we could do. We could--there's just so many things that we just keep at a bare minimum of physical responsibilities as Commissioners, those of us that are closest to the people are the best government there are. We kick the dirt every day. We understand the pitfalls. We understand physical responsibility. So we have to do a balancing act on what moneys we can spend, what services we can provide. We've got wants and we've got needs. There's a lot of wants out there, but it's what we need to provide our people. And unfortunately, because of this, we can only provide what they need. Senator Lee. And you, sir, have witnessed firsthand the fact that this is not just about some aspirational, if laudable, set of goals. This is often about safety. It is often about life or death. In fact, in many instances you are called on, as you have mentioned, to provide emergency services to people who are on federal land. Can you give us any examples of the type of situation that arises there when you are called upon to provide emergency services to someone who is on federal land? Mr. Whitney. Absolutely. I mean, emergency services, when you've got as many acres as you do in my county, that are very, very rural and very, very, you know, not accessible in a lot of cases, emergency services are pivotal and important to do that. And we need to ramp that up, as I said, we're very sure of it. I really complement my county on the services that we are able to provide, but we could go above and beyond the threshold and not just this status quo of providing a basic amount of emergency services. And that would be the same as I have to also speak with a voice of the Association of Counties all across the country. I think you've heard the testimony from my other fellow commissioners and their counties the same story. Senator Lee. I see my time has expired. I want to thank you, Commissioner, for coming here today, and I want to thank you for helping the Committee understand the unique challenges that you face. The fact that you are required to, as it were, make bricks without straw to do a lot with fewer resources than you need. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Whitney. Thank you, Senator. The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Lee. Senator Cortez-Masto. Senator Cortez-Masto. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank you as well and Ranking Member Cantwell for bringing together this topic and this important discussion to the rest. I am the Senator from Nevada and, as many of my colleagues know and many of you know, Nevada has the largest amount of public lands of any state in the United States. About 85 percent is owned by the Federal Government which means the topic we are discussing today is very important to our rural communities in Nevada. I will tell you, I have had conversations with NACo about this very subject. In fact, one county in particular, Nye County, would be devastated. For example, PILT reductions threaten to undermine plans to restore the Senior Nutrition program in Nye County. And it is true what my colleagues are saying and you well know, rural counties provide basic services and needs that are so important. I know this, not only as I sit here today, but I was an Assistant County Manager in Clark County and my father was a County Commissioner for many years. People in our counties and municipalities are on the front lines providing services every day that are so important. Our rural communities are challenged. They do not get the sales tax, property tax, that some of our urban areas get so they rely on PILT and SRS funding. And I am very supportive of how we continue to find long-term, sustainability of funding for our rural communities. So my question really is to Mr. Haggerty. I was reading through your comments and appreciate your comments about a permanent trust. And so, a couple of questions. One, can you discuss a little bit more and talk about what you mean by commercial receipts, what you would identify as commercial receipts? Nevada does not have a lot of revenue from harvesting timber, so I am curious what you think that would include. And then, after your comments, I would be curious to know what the commissioners think about the establishment of a permanent trust for long-term sustainability of both SRS and PILT. Mr. Haggerty. Thank you, Senator, for the question. The trust idea, at least the way that we have written about it and talked about it as a, kind of, policy idea, would only use receipts that are currently credited to the 25 percent fund for the Forest Service and for the BLM O and C lands in Oregon, the 50 percent revenue sharing payments. And so, those are primarily timber receipts, but they include all kinds of revenue from ski area leases in Colorado, to leasing right-of- ways and other sources of revenue. Timber is certainly the predominant one. Senator Cortez-Masto. But there is a discussion of combining SRS as well as PILT into this trust fund. Is that correct or no? Mr. Haggerty. I think, no, I think the simplest way to do it is to think of the trust as just a purely financial way of managing the revenue volatility and the uncertainty associated with receipts to build them over time so that states like Nevada, even in Montana and Oregon and other places, counties have different opportunities to generate revenue from federal lands. This would provide a way to build receipts over time, stabilize those revenues and create a permanent funding source. Senator Cortez-Masto. Okay, thank you. And to the commissioners, I am curious about your thoughts on that topic. Mr. Mark Whitney: Yes, thank you for that question. I think that's a very important question of this distinguished Board of Commissioners that are with me here. It's twofold on this answer. We all want active forest management and to get back to healthy payments under that 25- percent rule. We also want mineral extraction and mineral resources on the BLM lands. It's crucial. There are many, many valuable minerals that are important. We can extract them within our counties, in these rural areas. But until we can get there and get that done, we need the bridge to get there. And so, we've got to fully fund SRS so that the intertwinement of it with PILT does not take away from our counties. My county is mainly PILT. And as I said in my testimony, if SRS sunsets today, then I lose 40 percent of the revenue in my county because they've got to make the other counties whole on this. What I would like to say to each and every one of you, Chairman Murkowski and the rest of you, if you would talk to your colleagues and really emphasize, both in the House and in the Senate. Our great Senator Hatch is introducing a bill tomorrow that is going to fully fund SRS. It's very important that that bill passes. Please support that bill until we can get something done to get back to active forest management and mineral resources and extraction on BLM lands. Senator Cortez-Masto. Thank you. Any other commissioners have a comment, please? Mr. Cruickshank. Yes, Senator Cortez-Masto, thank you for the question. I was one of the Idaho County Commissioners that helped create that Community Forest Trust for Idaho. Of course, I know Idaho, so that's what we looked at. I think what we were looking for is the harvest could happen anywhere, but we were going to share it with the entire State of Idaho using the current SRS funding formula that we have today. However, in answer to your question, if we could create some type of funding that would create a balance of what we were going to get every year, I think we would really take a serious look at that because last year we got $1.8 million. If you go back historically, I should have been getting $3.5 million from what we did in harvest in early years. Are we going to get back to that? No. But I also want to say that when we were getting $3.5 million the counties in the U.S., in total, were getting over $500 million. So that meant that the Forest Service was creating $2 billion in revenue. They're not doing that today, so it's being funded by taxpayers to help them. We've got to find a balance there somewhere. And I think we're willing to work for that and find something so we don't have this deep hole and then we jump up every time it's reauthorized for a year or two, and then we fall into that hole again. So, thank you for the question and I appreciate being able to explain my thoughts on it. Senator Cortez-Masto. Thank you. Mr. Landis. Thank you for the question, Senator. Being from Alaska we have a certain amount of experience with trusts and permanent funds situations. I have actually received a cash payment every year that the permanent fund in Alaska has, just as a personal note, been in existence, and that's been a very successful program. I was intrigued by Mr. Haggerty's statistics of ``if we had done this in 2000 what it would look like now.'' I think that it all depends on the order of magnitude that you start with. It's going to be a big number to start with, but I think it's important to start with the right number rather than set up a program that will fail. Thank you. Senator Cortez-Masto. Thank you. Thank you very much. The Chairman. Thank you, Senator. And I appreciate that all of you had a chance to answer because it is something that, I think, if we are trying to look for some out-of-the-box solutions, some of these concepts, whether it is what Idaho has been doing or what you have mentioned, Mr. Haggerty, these are worth considering. So getting that input is important. Thank you for the question. Senator Gardner. Senator Gardner. Thank you, Madam Chair. If anybody has a pocket knife, I think Senator Franken is in need of a pocket knife, probably not an appropriate request at a Committee hearing but just in case. [Laughter.] Thank you very much to the witnesses for your time and testimony today and for holding this very timely hearing. Obviously, it is one of the key issues that I hear about when I go into Western Colorado and talk to county commissioners and leaders of their communities about SRS/PILT dollars. Whether you are in Hinsdale County, which has over 90 percent of the county in public lands, or whether you are in Mesa County or Grand Junction that has over 70 percent in public lands, these are issues that are on everyone's mind. With so many county commissioners and officials in the room, I would just ask you for your consideration of an effort that I am leading on moving the BLM Headquarters to the Western United States. This is an effort that I think is important. We have around 9,000 BLM employees across the country, about 400 to 600, depending on how you count them, at the headquarters here in Washington. But unlike the Forest Service, where there are actually East Coast forests within the system, of the nearly 250 million acres in the BLM system, 99.9 percent of those acres are west of the Mississippi River. And so, take a look at my bill and perhaps we could get your support for the legislation as we try to make those decisions based out of Washington, a little bit less Washington and more representative of the communities and the counties that you represent. So thanks for that. Obviously this is an important Western-based Committee, and I fully support reauthorization of SRS. I am co-sponsoring the legislation, Mr. Whitney, that Senator Hatch will be introducing tomorrow as it relates to the continuation of SRS. It is our job to make sure that we do that, to make sure that we fully fund PILT. I have also been working with Senator Wyden and the ski areas on fee retention. Mr. Casamassa, I would just ask you this question. I am working with Senator Wyden and the ski areas on fee retention and my intent is to ensure that SRS and PILT payments are not impacted by fee retention in any legislation we introduce, because that is an important consideration to make sure that we can get both done without hurting the other. I can only imagine what the uncertainty that the counties face each and every year would do to the Forest Service's budget. It is uncertain, obviously, with fire borrowing and some of those other issues that we face, but I can only imagine if Congress had to fund its employees and staff based on a provision of law that was not going to be there, maybe it would be retroactively applied. So how do we get this beyond the current fact today and into a situation where we have a more permanent base of funding for these two programs? Mr. Casamassa. Well certainly, Senator, thank you for that question. You know, associated with the development of more of a four season mountain resort on National Forest System land, the ski areas have really expanded operations to the point where there is almost as many people, as you are well aware in the State of Colorado, that are visiting the national forests, particularly the ski areas in the summertime, as they do in the winter. Fee retention associated with those types of developments is something that I'm aware of and certainly we haven't really looked at the specifics of what is being proposed, but it is something that would provide at least a basis for administration and being responsive to the investments that are now being placed on the national forest through those public/ private ventures in ski areas. Senator Gardner. Thank you. This past summer I had the opportunity to visit Blanca, Colorado down in Costilla County which is in the southern part of the state, and there was a new mill that was being built. It was a private mill built to deal with, mostly, timber coming from private lands. It was an interesting philosophy, though, that the manager of the mill said, that it was a mill that was there to sustain the forest and not the forest there to sustain the mill. I think that is something that we have to recognize that our activities to manage the forests, even if it involves something like a mill, are not there simply to destroy this incredible resource, but to make sure that that incredible resource is there for future generations to enjoy. That is what we know in Colorado is certainly the case. Mr. Casamassa, again, I spoke with the White River National Forest Supervisor and District Ranger, who deals with Colorado's incredible gems, and brought up the issue of the area known as Hanging Lake. A beautiful hike on the east side of Glenwood Canyon leads to a waterfall, a lake. More and more people are enjoying it each and every year. Recently it was vandalized, though, which was just an incredible shock to all of us and a shameful act, and there have been some other issues associated with the area. It has seen an 81 percent increase in visitors from across the country just over the last three years. I know the Forest Service is going to be introducing or releasing a new management plan to address some of the issues that the area has seen with that 81 percent increase, but how do we make sure that we are preserving some of these heavily used national treasures? Are there things that we can do, other mechanisms, other than shutting it down or cutting it off, that could help us manage those and make sure that we prevent the kinds of vandalism that we have seen over there and especially to hold them accountable if they do occur? Mr. Casamassa. Certainly Hanging Lake, it is a gem. It's a--it was, at one point of time, a very limited known place. You'd get there by parking at a rest stop along the interstate. And now it's really being used as a trailhead for that particular area. So, you know, there is a balance between how we can operate and maintain those facilities and then ensure that it is protected and being able to be used for a wider variety of folks. There is just a balance there to where you reach this capacity where the resource is not sustainable given the use that occurs. So, recognizing that that's one of the challenges associated with more of an urbanization of some of the national forests within the system. Senator Gardner. Thank you. Thanks, Madam Chair. The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Gardner. Senator Franken. Senator Franken. Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I am sorry, I was in the Judiciary Committee and I have the feeling I may go over some territory that has been covered. In Minnesota, we have two beautiful national forests, the Chippewa and the Superior. And we have a beautiful national park up in Northern Minnesota, Voyageurs National Park. They are beautiful and a great benefit to the entire state, but they do add additional costs to the northern counties in terms of coordinating emergency response and for search and rescue, increased road maintenance demand, and that is why the SRS and the PILT payments are so important to help defray the costs of providing critical county services. I know that has been a theme here, and I hear this from our county commissioners every year. I want to thank the county commissioners from various Western states for being here. I just want to know, and if you have been asked this before I got here, I apologize, but just how this uncertainty impacts your ability to plan and how it affects your operations? Is that something you have already answered and I should look at the record or would anyone like to add on to what has been said? Mr. Whitney? Mr. Whitney. Thank you for that question, Senator Franken. I can tell you now, I know that I speak on behalf of a whole lot of county commissioners throughout this country, there is nothing more frustrating than trying to create a budget without certainty in revenues. And each year we go into a budget doing that, not knowing whether PILT and SRS is going to be funded. We would like to have some sort of certainty. So, as I said, and I don't want to sound repetitious or repentant, please support Senator Hatch's bill tomorrow to fully fund SRS until we can get back to some sort of-- Senator Franken. Certainly. So you would like some long-term solution to this? Mr. Whitney. We do. There are solutions here. And it's not about SRS and PILT is not, I don't know if it is the solution. The solution is active forest management and resource and mineral extraction on BLM lands. Senator Franken. Okay. Mr. Whitney. That is the solution. We don't like to be known as the welfare children of the West. Senator Franken. To what extent does the Forest Service's cost of fighting wildfires which are obviously more intense and bigger than they have been and the fire season is longer. To what extent does the money that is needed for that affect the ability to manage the forests? Yes, Mr. Cruickshank? Mr. Cruickshank. Senator Franken, thank you for that question. Quite often when we see fire borrowing happening, a project has been started and it's about to be implemented, but then the fire borrowing takes the money away. And if that project doesn't start within a certain amount of time, then it basically changes it. It has to go back to page one and start over again. So a lot of times those projects are shelved. They might be there for four or five years and maybe they never get implemented and we've already spent money to get them started but because of the regulations, we have to go back. And on your prior question, about funding. ``How do you fund?'' I mean, you look at school teachers. They have no certainty they're going to have a job. So, they're going to go to the urban areas where they know they're going to have a job. And so, we lose good teachers in our rural communities because there's no certainty that they can be there. Senator Franken. And we need them. We need them. Mr. Cruickshank. Same way with buying equipment for a county. You know, do we go buy a new piece of equipment or do we spend $50,000 and fix the old one because you don't know if you're going to get the money so, you can't spend $250,000 that you don't have. Senator Franken. I believe part of the solution to this may be our approach, the approach to fix fire borrowing, because as Mr. Whitney said ``if we can manage our forests well . . . '' I know that in Minnesota we have had ceilings on how much we can harvest because there is so much fire borrowing. Thank you. Thank you, all. The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Franken. I think one of the great takeaways thus far from the hearing this morning has been that so much of this is all intertwined, whether it is the fire borrowing, whether it is forest management and then how we deal with these economies. Senator Franken. It is so unusual hearing in the Senate that things are intertwined. The Chairman. It is time to get something done here. That is all. Senator Franken. Yes. The Chairman. Let's go to Senator Hoeven. Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I am going to actually start on the far end with Mr. Whitney and then work back, all the way back. I want your top several recommendations for how we can improve and strengthen the PILT and SRS programs. Then I am going to ask Mr. Casamassa and Ms. Barton Ferriter to respond. I am guessing that Mr. Whitney you are going to start out with long-term certainty in terms of your top recommendations, but I would like your top, maybe, two, three, recommendations from each of you and then get responses from people that actually are out working with the PILT program, administering it. Mr. Whitney. Thank you for that question. And I missed the gist of what you said, the-- Senator Hoeven. Improve. How do we improve and strengthen the PILT program so that it works better for you? Mr. Whitney. The PILT, did you say the PILT? Senator Hoeven. Yes, Payment in Lieu of Taxes. Mr. Whitney. Right, okay. As I said, the way to improve PILT is to fully fund SRS. PILT, we could certainly use more money; however, we understand what the restraints on the budget, pitfalls you all have back here, that you know, that it's got to be a balancing act of some sort. So, would we take more? Absolutely, we would love more. But we'd just like to get what is rightfully ours that's mandated. Senator Hoeven. So your main recommendation would be long- term funding of SRS? Mr. Whitney. Absolutely. Senator Hoeven. Okay. Mr. Haggerty? Mr. Haggerty. I agree that long-term funding is required but one of the problems we have in DC is the inability to get appropriations passed in a timely manner, waiting for long periods of time. So, one of the-- Senator Hoeven. I am on the Appropriations Committee, so I am well aware of that as well. Mr. Haggerty. Yes. One of the ideas that we have been offering as a solution is to create a permanent funding source that isn't reliant just on annual receipts which can be volatile and uncertain over time due to markets and politics, frankly. But to invest those receipts in a fund that would grow over time, very much like a legacy fund that was established in North Dakota for oil revenue in the last several years. And as that trust builds it would make a distribution back to the Treasury to pay for the long-term authorizations of SRS and eventually, if it's successful enough, maybe PILT too. Senator Hoeven. I appreciate you bringing up the legacy funds, since it was established when I was Governor. So thanks for bringing up that example. Mr. Haggerty. Great. Senator Hoeven. It is a great one. Mr. Haggerty. Thank you for your good work. [Laughter.] Senator Hoeven. I appreciate it. Mr. Manus? Mr. Manus. Thank you for that question. Long-term funding is necessary for PILT. It seems like every year, every two years, we're struggling with our budgets to figure out are we going to get PILT funding? If we don't get PILT, how are we going to manage? Who are we going to lay off? SRS funding is tied to management, and I think all the timber counties would love to see a more aggressive management, not only to prevent forest fires and make a healthier forest, but it provides jobs in our community. We're down to one sawmill in our community, and that sawmill runs one shift currently, would love to be running two shifts. Quite frankly, it doesn't pay for them to operate with just one shift. And as a business owner, I understand that. We need to get more harvest, we need to get better management, we need a healthier forest, and we need the jobs. With that, SRS funding would not need to be funded by the Federal Government in our county because we'd get the 25 percent. Senator Hoeven. Mr. Landis? Oops, you guys aren't in the same order as my sheet is. I'm sorry. Mr. Cruickshank? Mr. Cruickshank. Thank you, Senator Hoeven, for the question. The PILT, actually the PILT formula, starts with a small population of 5,000, and we have a lot of rural counties out here that have smaller population than 5,000. So, a few years ago, we talked about trying to find a little higher percentage that would go to smaller populations with large land mass. It would cost about $11 to $12 million in the PILT formula. That would really help these small, rural counties. But when you also look at the formula, we have some larger urban areas of their land mass, they're getting, like, $2.50 an acre. And you heard Mr. Whitney say he was getting around 70 cents an acre. In my county we get about 30 cents an acre. So sometimes you have to look at how the formula is and I'm scared to because then everybody puts their hand in the cookie jar. So I'm going to be really cautious when I say that. As far as SRS, the economic stability of when we had sawmills and that steady paycheck was coming in, is correct. But it also provided that education for our schoolchildren and took care of our roads. Litigation hampers us so the Equal Act for Justice Act allows some people to sue and get their funding back where counties are, kind of, left out, they can't get that. So, and go back to the compact that was given to the states that have large public lands through counties that with natural resources, we would be better off with than counties that don't have that. I appreciate the question and thank you for considering other options. Senator Hoeven. Mr. Landis? Mr. Landis. Thank you, Senator, for the question. In Alaska, well in our part of Alaska, all of the land, nearly all of the land, is owned by the Forest Service. So, we don't have grazing. We don't have mining. We have forest. That active forest management is important, allowing the states to increase forest revenues through creative means. We've heard some this morning about the state forests or forest trusts, things that might be innovative, I think, are important for us to look at. And failing that, the second idea, of course, is long-term funding streams, multi-year appropriations. We've heard about endowments as well. Those types of things, again, creative solutions for the problem, I think, are important. Thank you. Senator Hoeven. Okay. I would ask Mr. Casamassa and Ms. Barton Ferriter, just to respond in terms of some of those ideas. What is your reaction to their recommendations? Mr. Casamassa. Well certainly, Senator, I appreciate the question. You know, one of the things that we would say is if Secure Rural Schools was reauthorized that we would really take a look at those ways to streamline, perhaps the Resource Advisory Committee, the development of quorums and the ability for recommendations to be made as it relates to the Title II funding. In addition to that, I'd say a part of what we continue to work through and take advantage of are some other authorities that we have like good neighbor authority, some of the Farm bill, insect and disease designations and the streamlining that we do as it relates to our analysis. But continuing to work with the states, I think, is an important aspect that goes beyond just Secure Rural Schools. Senator Hoeven. Ms. Barton Ferriter? Ms. Ferriter. I would agree with my colleague here. We recognize the importance of these programs to rural America. We will implement what the Congress authorizes and appropriates. I will point out that we do operate PILT on an annual basis, and so having a little more certainty about whether we're talking about discretionary or mandatory or some kind of combination of that would be helpful. It helps us in providing more clarity for the counties on what's coming. Senator Hoeven. Right. Okay, thank you. I think that gives us something to work on. Thanks to all of you. Thank you, Madam Chairman. The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Hoeven. I think that is a good way to wrap things up as we consider a path forward. I think one take away this morning is that members of this Committee are clearly engaged. They clearly understand the urgency that is in front of us to deal with Secure Rural Schools payments to provide for that level of certainty, at least in the short-term here. We will look forward to the measure being released out of the Finance Committee tomorrow under Senator Wyden's leadership, along with Senator Hatch. I think that is important. But recognizing that we need to be looking to a longer-term solution and to hear Senator Wyden's history with his introduction initially of the program back in the 90's, but to know that so many of us that have been here now for over a decade and feel like it is just, kind of, Groundhog Day every year with SRS. These small communities, rural communities that don't have a lot of extra money in their budget, scrape up money and cash in air miles to send people thousands of miles away to Washington, DC to go door-to-door, kind of, hat-in-hand reminding us of the impact to these communities whether it is your sports programs, whether it is your art programs, whether it is what you need to do with your roads. This is very real in terms of the impact to our small and rural communities. The stress that you all go through as mayors, as commissioners, on an annual basis because we cannot figure out a longer-term and more sustainable and more certain approach, is just not right. Know that I think we have a collective desire to work with you. I think we have heard some good ideas. I think it is important that we be thinking outside the box because just looking at this and saying well, we will reauthorize, we will try to go a little bit longer than 18 months or maybe two years. No, we cannot be thinking that way. And so, help us with your ideas. For those within the agencies, we need your help on this too. This is not just kicking it to well, we did not get the appropriation bills through and so, you put it at the feet of Congress. Justifiably, we need to get our act together as well, but you have certain ideas in terms of how we can create some greater efficiencies, perhaps looking at new aspects of the program. This is something that rural America deserves to see resolved and resolved in a positive way for our communities. So I look forward to continuing this conversation with all of you. And to those of you who have traveled so far to be here, thank you for the time that you have given us. We will keep working together. Thanks and we stand adjourned. [Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.] APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED ---------- [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]