[Senate Hearing 115-23]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 115-23
INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECT STREAMLINING AND EFFICIENCY: ACHIEVING FASTER,
BETTER, AND CHEAPER RESULTS
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HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
MAY 3, 2017
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
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Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
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COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming, Chairman
JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland
JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
ROGER WICKER, Mississippi SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
DEB FISCHER, Nebraska JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon
JERRY MORAN, Kansas KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, New York
MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
JONI ERNST, Iowa EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
RICHARD SHELBY, Alabama KAMALA HARRIS, California
Richard M. Russell, Majority Staff Director
Gabrielle Batkin, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
MAY 3, 2017
OPENING STATEMENTS
Barrasso, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Wyoming...... 1
Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware.. 2
WITNESSES
Panos, William T. ``Bill,'' Director, Wyoming Department of
Transportation................................................. 5
Prepared statement........................................... 7
Responses to additional questions from Senator Carper........ 16
Pilconis, Leah F., Consultant on Environmental Law & Policy,
Associated General Contractors of America...................... 19
Prepared statement........................................... 21
Responses to additional questions from Senator Carper........ 58
Porcari, John, President of U.S. Advisory Services, WSP Parsons
Brinckerhoff................................................... 66
Prepared statement........................................... 69
Responses to additional questions from:
Senator Carper........................................... 78
Senator Duckworth........................................ 82
Senator Markey........................................... 82
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL
Article: Can You Really Make Money With Vending Machines? by
Suzanne Kearns, http://quickbooks.intuit.com................... 162
40 Proposed U.S. Transportation and Water Infrastructure Projects
of Major Economic Significance, a report prepared by AECOM for
the Build America Investment Initiative........................ 164
Memorandum of Understanding between the City of Warwick and the
Rhode Island Airport Corporation, May 2012..................... 267
INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECT STREAMLINING AND EFFICIENCY: ACHIEVING FASTER,
BETTER, AND CHEAPER RESULTS
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WEDNESDAY, MAY 3, 2017
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Environment and Public Works,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m. in
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John Barrasso
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Barrasso, Carper, Inhofe, Capito,
Boozman, Wicker, Fischer, Moran, Rounds, Ernst, Sullivan,
Cardin, Whitehouse, Gillibrand, Booker, Duckworth, and Harris.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING
Senator Barrasso. Good morning. I call this hearing to
order.
Infrastructure is a shared bipartisan priority of all of
the members of this Committee. It is also a major priority for
the President. The largest hurdles to starting roadwork is
getting the needed Government approvals. The costs and delays
of regulatory red tape can be staggering.
Washington needs to be smarter about these rules and more
aware of the effects that they have in communities. We need to
find ways to get projects started faster, build roads better,
and make costs cheaper.
Simplifying these processes will allow for construction
companies to start hiring and for workers to begin building
faster; it is a common sense way to boost our economy and
upgrade our public works. If we find ways to streamline review
processes, mindful of environmental protection and other public
interests, then we can initiate projects more promptly.
More efficient and streamlined regulation can enable
transportation departments to focus on efforts to improve
safety and personal mobility, and facilitate economic growth.
Less time and money and staff effort would need to be dedicated
to regulatory compliance.
When we find opportunities to streamline regulation, it
enables the State Department of Transportation or other
regulated entities to focus more closely on delivering
transportation projects and programs and do a better job on
them.
Now, there are many reasons to provide more relief to State
Departments of Transportation. For example, I have concerns
with subjecting rural States to the same rules as more densely
populated States. The idea that we would need to have Wyoming
or Alaska, South Dakota, Oklahoma do transportation traffic
congestion studies on roads that are infrequently traveled is a
waste of valuable time and taxpayer resources. Most
importantly, these requirements meant for more urban areas
impact a rural State's ability to complete projects.
I also have concerns about barriers that exist at the
Federal level that might interfere with applications of
technologies that can accelerate project delivery at lower
costs. Modifying these requirements to allow technological
innovations that can save valuable taxpayer money and speed
project construction is just common sense.
We also should remember that in most cases regulation in
the highway program by the U.S. Department of Transportation is
regulation of State governments. A citizen could ask whether it
is really necessary to have one government regulate another
government. State Departments of Transportation are public
sector entities; they are concerned with safety and
environmental protection, and they deserve respect.
The Wyoming Department of Transportation Director Panos'
diverse experience makes his participation today particularly
helpful to the Committee. He has served as an environmental
regulator, as a construction program executive, and now as our
State Transportation Agency CEO. He has seen these issues from
many perspectives, and as the Director's testimony notes, it is
important to move the projects associated with additional
funding through the review process promptly, responsibly, and
get them built. I agree, and I think it can be done
responsibly.
So I urge my colleagues to work with me in a bipartisan way
to find these solutions.
With that, I would now turn to the Ranking Member for his
testimony.
Senator Carper.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE
Senator Carper. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome to our witnesses, at least one who has been before
us. A couple have been before us before, and one of them I was
just telling about, Senator Inhofe, the work that has been done
on the omnibus budget bill involving the Diesel Emission
Reduction Act, and instead of seeing it eliminated or greatly
diminished, it is actually going to be increased a little bit.
And I know that is something you and George Voinovich and I
have worked on a lot, and we appreciate your help as well,
Leah.
I am glad to be here with all of you today. This hearing's
title asks whether we are able to build transportation projects
faster, better, and cheaper, and that has a nice ring to it. I
certainly agree with the intent. I suspect we all do. But I
want to add maybe one other adjective to that list, and it is
smarter.
I am sure we all remember stuff that our parents used to
say to us growing up. I certainly do. My dad always wondered if
any of it was actually getting through. But among the things he
was always saying to my sister and me, when we would do our
chores and not do them well, he would say, if a job is worth
doing, it is worth doing well. That is what he would say. If a
job is worth doing, it is worth doing well. And he said that a
lot. We must not have done our chores so well.
But out of that I took the idea, I take the idea that
everything I do I can do better. I think the same is true of
all of us. That includes all Federal programs. We can do them
all better, including the ones we have partnerships with the
States.
The other thing my dad used to say a lot to my sister and
me, he used to say, just use some common sense. He said that a
lot too, not so nicely. We must not have had any common sense.
But he said it a whole lot.
And I am thinking of those two things--if it isn't perfect,
make it better, and just use some common sense--today as we
approach this hearing.
When it comes to streamlining legislation, being smarter
also means understanding how things are working now and
allowing the existing streamlining measures to be well on their
way to implementation before we enact new ones that are likely
to delay the benefits of earlier streamlining measures that are
still being implemented.
It is a little bit like you are moving into a house. Maybe
it is a fixer-upper. It needs a lot of work, and the house
needs to be painted. And you have the option, you can move your
furniture in before painting, or you can wait, paint the house,
and then move in the furniture.
It is the same kind of situation. I just want us to keep
that in mind as we approach today's hearing.
But as we know one tool designed to help public agencies
make smarter decisions is the National Environmental Policy
Act, NEPA. When it works as intended, NEPA ensures that Federal
decisionmakers are better informed through project analysis and
community engagement. When the NEPA process is well
coordinated, it can improve project outcomes; it can reduce
costs and identify conflicts early enough to resolve them
without delay.
Unfortunately, there are times when coordination isn't done
well, and projects are delayed without good reason. That is why
I supported the 22 streamlining provisions that passed in MAP-
21 in 2012. And again I turned to Jim Inhofe. I know he did a
lot of work, and our staffs did a lot of work on that. Eighteen
additional streamlining provisions were included in the FAST
Act in 2015. Again, kudos to all who were involved.
But I believe that it is smart to improve coordination
between agencies. I think it is smart to avoid duplication and
to focus agency reviews and public input on the projects with
the most significant impacts.
I continue to believe that measures intended in the past
two bills have real promise to improve timelines and outcomes.
But we will only see those benefits if we give them an
opportunity to be fully implemented by USDOT and actively used
by our States, native American tribes, and community partners.
For that reason, one of our Committee's top priorities
right now should be, I think, oversight to make sure that the
existing streamlining measures that we have adopted in the last
5 years are being fully implemented and effectively implemented
as a good part of our job.
Moreover, adopting new measures at this juncture could well
perform a disservice, if we are not careful, to project
delivery by delaying implementation of the new authorities for
MAP-21 and FAST Act. I don't think we want to do that, so we
have to be smart about it.
A new report released in March by USDOT's Office of
Inspector General states that there are real risks in enacting
new streamlining measures before the old ones are implemented.
The IG report says that streamlining measures Congress adopted
in the FAST Act may have perversely delayed the benefits from
the MAP-21 streamlining provisions, which had to be revised in
order to incorporate the FAST Act changes.
In other words, we are already seeing some
counterproductive effects of adopting additional streamlining
measures. We must act carefully to avoid doing so yet again. In
my father's words, let's just use some common sense.
Finally, we also need to be clear on two critical points
when it comes to transportation project delivery and delays.
First, 90 percent of highway projects are already categorically
excluded from extensive environmental analysis under NEPA. I
was surprised to learn that. The environmental reviews for
those projects are completed in a month, on average. About 4
percent of the remaining highway projects face the most
extensive reviews, and they are large, complicated projects;
they are not our vast majority of highway projects, though.
Second, although environmental permits and reviews take a
lion's share of the blame for delays, multiple studies and
reports have demonstrated that project delays more often result
from causes that are unrelated to environmental laws. Last
year, a report from the Treasury Department found a lack of
public funding is by far the most common factor hindering the
completion of transportation projects. We will not solve our
underlying funding shortage by cutting environmental reviews
alone.
The best way to ensure a timely completion of environmental
permits and reviews is by bringing all the agencies together to
coordinate early. However, funding constraints at the Federal
permitting agencies, such as EPA and U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service, do not enable them to engage early in all projects.
Let's keep that in mind. Unfortunately, the fiscal year 2018
cuts proposed to EPA and the Department of Interior budgets
would only exacerbate permitting delays if we adopt them.
I will also be open to looking for ways to make the
government more effectively, to improve transparency and
accountability, and avoid unnecessary duplication or delays.
Completing projects more quickly brings the benefits of that
project to a community more quickly, whether it is less time
wasted in traffic, fewer fatalities, or new access to jobs,
housing, and other destinations.
We also know that projects can have real impacts on
communities and the environment. Congress must ensure that any
revisions to the way we review projects are going to result in
smarter processes and better outcomes that will not impede the
progress we have made to date.
That it is. All right, thank you all for being here. It is
great to be with us. Let's have a wonderful hearing. Thank you.
Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Carper.
We will now hear from our witnesses, and we will start with
Bill Panos, who is the Director of the Wyoming Department of
Transportation.
Welcome back to the Committee. Look forward to your
testimony.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM T. ``BILL'' PANOS, DIRECTOR, WYOMING
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
Mr. Panos. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Barrasso, Senator Carper, members of the
Committee, I am Bill Panos, the Director and Chief Executive
Officer of the Wyoming Department of Transportation.
Today, infrastructure investment is on the national agenda.
Yet, delivering the best possible transportation infrastructure
requires more than money. We also must use each dollar
efficiently.
There are ways to reform Federal requirements so that
transportation dollars can be put to work more efficiently
while protecting the environment and other public interests.
We can improve the project review process. We can also
streamline other regulations. When regulation is not
streamlined, personnel effort and scarce dollars have to be
unnecessarily redirected from executing projects to regulatory
compliance. That is a suboptimal result.
More specifically, we can improve scheduling for review of
projects requiring an EIS. Today, Federal agencies can obtain
more time for review by not concurring in the lead agency's
proposed schedule. Congress should assume that the lead agency
will give fair consideration to the scheduling views of other
agencies, and let the lead agency set the schedule.
Turning to smaller infrastructure projects, they generally
receive categorical exclusion treatment for NEPA review. This
expedited approach helps States use funds more promptly. We
would welcome additions to the classes of projects receiving
categorical exclusion treatment.
Let me add that smaller projects can also be delayed by
requirements other than NEPA review. For example, a State DOT
may have to wait months for a determination that no 404 permits
are needed for a project within an existing operational right-
of-way. This is frustrating, especially when there is no water
in the project area. We suggest that for cases like that a time
limit should be placed on responses from other agencies.
Turning to other regulation, rural States should be excused
from requirements intended to address urban traffic congestion.
For example, in the proposed rulemaking notice for the System
Performance and Congestion Management Rule, the first reason
provided by FHWA for the proposal was congestion reduction.
Rural States do not experience anything resembling the
congestion in heavily populated areas.
However, under that rule, States must develop computerized
applications and report on millions of traffic data points. For
example, Wyoming would report to USDOT the number of vehicles
on the road halfway between Cody and Casper at 10 a.m. on a
Monday. USDOT does not need this information from States like
Wyoming. But it will take time and money for us to comply. That
will detract from our efforts to advance basic transportation
improvements, including those intended for safety.
We also have concerns with stewardship agreements between
FHWA and State DOTs. These agreements, once brief, now
routinely exceed 50 pages. Most texts in these agreements is
standardized, and the subject matter extends beyond the
provision that give rise to these agreements. For example, a
State assumes DOT responsibilities for project design, plan,
specifications, and other similar matters. Yet, these
agreements require advanced notice or approval of changes in
many State DOT practices. This includes those for which the
State supposedly assumed USDOT responsibilities. Statute does
not require these advanced approvals. Yet, today States have to
accept these terms in stewardship agreements.
Instead, requirements for these agreements should be
established through rulemaking. USDOT should have to include in
a proposed rulemaking notice justification for requirements
that are not in statute. The provisions that survive the
rulemaking process would then supersede the current provisions.
Before closing, I will briefly comment on infrastructure
investment. The nation benefits from Federal investment in
surface transportation infrastructure in rural States like
ours. Yet, public-private partnerships and other approaches
that depend on a positive revenue stream from a surface
transportation project are not a solution for rural States.
Projects in rural States are unlikely to be able to
generate revenues that attract investors; however, using the
formula-based FAST Act approach to distributing funds would
ensure that all States participate in the transportation
portion of an infrastructure initiative. It would also help
deliver the benefits of any increase in infrastructure
investment to the public promptly.
In conclusion, as the nation considers increasing
transportation infrastructure investment, our statement offers
ideas for streamlining transportation project and program
regulation while continuing to protect public interests. The
public won't want additional investments in transportation to
be slowed down by unproductive requirements, and we hope our
suggestions are timely and helpful to the Committee.
Thanks for your consideration and for the opportunity to
testify.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Panos follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you so very much, and I
thought those comments were timely and were helpful, and we
appreciate you being here, and we have some questions for after
we get through the panel.
Mr. Panos. Thank you, sir.
Senator Barrasso. I would like to next turn to Leah
Pilconis, who is the Consultant on Environmental Law and Policy
on behalf of the Associated General Contractors of America.
Thanks so much for joining us today.
STATEMENT OF LEAH F. PILCONIS, CONSULTANT ON ENVIRONMENTAL LAW
& POLICY, ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF AMERICA
Ms. Pilconis. Thank you.
Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member Carper, and members of
the Committee, thank you for inviting Associated General
Contractors of America to testify here today. My name is Leah
Pilconis, and I am AGC's Senior Environmental Law & Policy
Advisor.
I have spent the last 16 and a half years establishing and
leading AGC's environmental program. AGC members know firsthand
how to build infrastructure in a safe, effective, and efficient
manner, but funding has been insufficient to repair and replace
it. Congress and the Administration must first and foremost
increase funding for our nation's infrastructure programs to
ensure that we can address our increasingly dire infrastructure
backlog.
In addition to increased funding, AGC has long been
committed to simplifying the sequential and layered approach of
the existing environmental permitting process. The chart behind
me attempts to illustrate how complex it is. The chart
identifies areas of duplication, as well as each of the
potential procedural and legal chokepoints that can grind the
process to a halt or even restart it entirely.
AGC believes we can make the Federal environmental review
process faster, better, and cheaper without sacrificing
environmental protections. AGC recommends expanding the
meaningful reforms this Committee has helped to enact in MAP-21
and the FAST Act.
The current laws provide a mechanism to ensure that leading
agencies engage in early outreach and meetings with
participating agencies and stakeholders. But importantly, there
is no deadline for the Government to complete the NEPA review
process from start to finish. And where current law does set
deadlines for agency actions under NEPA or for issuing permits
and permissions, those deadlines are missed because the list of
exceptions is as long as the list of approvals you need to be
in compliance with the 30+ Federal environmental statutes.
MAP-21 goes so far as to impose penalties on Federal
agencies that fail to meet deadlines. Even so, these deadlines
aren't being met, and fines aren't being collected. It is not
happening because the deciding agency can say the permit
application was not complete or it is waiting on another entity
to make a decision. And there is apparently a reluctance to
elevate disputes.
The Government also is not conducting Federal and State
permitting reviews concurrently, even though this is called for
by MAP-21 and FAST-41. It is not happening because the laws say
you don't have to do this or these things at the same time if
it would impact your ability to conduct any analysis or meet
any obligation.
Congress should strengthen the time limited schedules in
current law to make them truly mandatory. There also should be
a hard deadline for completing a NEPA review. In addition, AGC
has identified three ripe, high level opportunities for
streamlining.
First, Congress should require a nationwide merger of the
NEPA and the Clean Water Act Section 404 permitting processes.
Congress should require the Corps to issue the 404 permit at
the end of the NEPA process based on the information generated
by NEPA.
Second, and more generally, the monitoring, mitigation, and
other environmental planning work performed during the NEPA
process included in the final EIS and Record of Decision must
satisfy Federal environmental permitting requirements unless
there is a material change in the project. Time and money are
wasted on redoing project analyses and reviews and on
collecting duplicate information from permit applicants.
Agencies must break away from always preparing one of a
kind products from the ground up. Congress should strengthen
the programmatic approaches in current law and require agencies
to use the work previously prepared by other agencies for
similar type projects and for projects in the same region and/
or impacting similar resources.
Third, Congress must consider a reasonable and measured
approach to citizen suit reform to prevent misuse of
environmental laws. These lawsuits can take years to resolve
and delay or prevent the public from receiving and benefiting
from cleaner water, safer roads and bridges, and a more
reliable energy system.
Congress should clarify requirements for legal standing,
require bonds to be posted by plaintiffs seeking to block
activities, and require that enforcement of complex
environmental rules be enforced only by trained staff of
Government agencies.
Thank you again for the opportunity to testify on behalf of
AGC. I look forward to answering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Pilconis follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you so much for being with us
and for sharing your testimony.
I would like to next invite Senator Cardin to introduce our
next guest and witness.
Senator Cardin. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is great
to have John Porcari back before our Committee. I think most of
the members of this Committee know he was the Deputy Secretary
for the United States Department of Transportation from 2009 to
2013, so he is well known to our Committee.
We know him for two stints as Secretary of Transportation
in Maryland. I point out that it is very relevant to today's
hearing. He supervised the Woodrow Wilson Bridge construction,
a multibillion dollar connection between Virginia and Maryland
on I-95. He also was responsible for the ICC, Intercounty
Connector, which alleviates traffic congestion in this region
in Prince George's and Montgomery County. He also supervised
the expansion of the BWI Thurgood Marshall Airport.
What I think is relevant, he understands the connections
between highways, transit systems, roads, bridges, tunnels,
ports, and airports, which I think is very vital for our work.
He now is the President of the U.S. Advisory Service at WSP
Parsons Brinckerhoff, a global engineering and professional
services organization, and Interim Director of the Gateway
Development Corporation.
Last, Mr. Chairman, if I might ask consent that the
statement from Earthjustice and other groups be made part of
our record.
Welcome, John. It is a pleasure to have you here.
Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
[The referenced information follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Mr. Porcari, welcome back to the
Committee.
STATEMENT OF JOHN PORCARI, PRESIDENT OF
U.S. ADVISORY SERVICES, WSP PARSONS BRINCKERHOFF
Mr. Porcari. Thank you, Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member
Carper. And thank you, Senator Cardin. It is a pleasure to be
here today, and I truly appreciate this Committee's continued
leadership on this very important issue through the years.
My abbreviated verbal testimony is supplemented by a
written testimony that I have submitted for the record.
And I have to say this is a topic that I feel very
passionate about. As Senator Cardin points out, having twice
served as a State DOT Secretary with responsibility for every
mode of transportation--highway, bridge, transit, airport, and
port projects--I have experienced firsthand the frustrations
that are inherent in delivering large, complex infrastructure
projects. And I brought those frustrations and hard lessons
with me to my tenure as Deputy Secretary and Chief Operating
Officer of USDOT.
Streamlining the approval processes and delivering better
projects through a faster, more predictable process is a
necessary precursor to fixing our nation's broken
infrastructure. It is clear that together we have made
significant progress, but much more work remains to be done.
We have had two successive surface transportation
reauthorizations, MAP-21 and the FAST Act, that have
incorporated significant streamlining provisions. Our common
goal moving forward should be better outcomes in a faster, more
predictable process.
With MAP-21, among other things, we have five new
categorical exclusions, including a CATEX for emergency repairs
that was used right after its adoption for the Skagit River
Bridge collapse. It allowed us to combine the final
environmental impact statement and Record of Decision. It
allowed NEPA assignment for highway projects, and initially
only the State of California took advantage of that for highway
projects. Later, Ohio, Texas, Florida, and Utah did that as
well.
That was followed by the FAST Act, which in addition to
bringing some consistency and predictability to the process set
deadlines requiring a schedule, and it applies to projects
beyond transportation for the first time. So for infrastructure
writ large, we have an opportunity to enact some of the process
reforms that are out there.
It also, importantly, allowed funding for dedicated staff
for highway, aviation, and transit projects in the reviewing
agencies. I believe that is an underutilized tool that can be
very effective, in particular for major projects. It also
permitted concurrent review of a coordinated project plan.
And this played out in what I think of as a tale of two
bridges. Both were complicated multibillion dollar replacement
bridge projects. Both were urgently needed. The difference is
one is nearing completion, and the other is unbuilt.
The first one, the Tappan Zee Bridge replacement, the New
York Bridge, received a Record of Decision in 13 months. We
believe that is a record. It had all of its other Federal
approvals by month 15. The Governor, the cabinet secretaries
for the President were all personally involved in making sure
this project moved forward, and that is a critical success
ingredient for major projects.
A rapid response team, which is the precursor to today's
Permitting Improvement Council, was formed in response to this
project to front load the coordination to make it happen.
In contrast, the Columbia River Crossing, a major bridge
replacement program for the States of Washington and Oregon,
received NEPA approval, but not the Coast Guard bridge permit.
It can't proceed without it. That was a major breakdown between
two agencies. It required senior level intervention to get it
back on track. That is the very definition of failure.
With later outstanding help from the Coast Guard, it
resulted in a Memorandum of Understanding between DOT and the
Coast Guard to allow the simultaneous issuance of a Record of
Decision and the Coast Guard bridge permit. But it is clear
that showed what should not happen.
So what were the lessons? First, it is not in legislation,
but without passionate project advocates--external and
internal--projects don't make it over the finish line. It is
elected officials and project professionals alike that are
committed to the project.
Front loading the process, getting all the review agencies
around the table at the very beginning of the process, really
works. It forces everyone to acknowledge and understand the
issues. Direct conflicts, and there are some, usually, between
agencies get resolved and identified early.
What are the next steps? Let me suggest five things that we
can build on that work. One is the Liaison Program, where you
can fund dedicated staff at agencies. It has been proven to
improve the review times and ensure better outcomes. It has
expanded to include aviation and transit under the FAST Act.
This is a cost effective investment for major projects.
Second, NEPA assignment for highway and other projects to
the States. As has been pointed out by the Chairman, we work
under a Federalist system. The States have the primary
responsibility for delivering projects. The States are capable
of doing this work. And where it has been delegated, with
California, Texas, Florida, Utah, and Ohio, they have taken
advantage of it. Texas reports a 25 percent reduction in
approval times for major projects. Ohio reports an
approximately 20 percent time savings in delivering their
overall program.
The third essential element for major projects is to get
the project on the President's dashboard and use the Permitting
Improvement Council to front load the process and move it
forward.
Fourth, concurrent reviews within NEPA are permitted and
encouraged. They need to be the norm, as has been pointed out.
And five, outside of the NEPA process, other permits that
are typically needed, as the other witnesses have mentioned,
the Corps 404 permits, Coast Guard bridge permits, those can
run, and should run, concurrently with the NEPA process.
So what remains to be done? First, we should do no harm.
Any additional legislative requirements could actually slow
down the process of implementation of the reforms under MAP-21
and the FAST Act. We should not permit that.
Next, reporting back to Congress and the public on review
and approval times for EA and EIS projects. We pay attention to
what we measure. We should measure it all.
And then finally, the Permitting Improvement Council, which
was set up in the FAST Act, every project of regional and
national significance should be tracked. It is the single best
interagency mechanism to engineer better project approval
process. It is up to the President's direction to name the
director for that. That is a critical position within the
Federal Government that could do more than any other single
element to improve the process.
Thank you, and I appreciate the opportunity.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Porcari follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much for the
testimony for all of you. We look forward to having a chance to
hear the answers to your questions, and I will start with
Director Panos.
In your written testimony you stated that ``using the
current predominantly formula-based FAST Act approach to
distribution would ensure both rural and urban States
participate in the initiative.'' You went on to say it would
``also help push the benefits of any new infrastructure
initiative out to the public promptly.''
So is it safe to say that increasing funding through this
formula-based process, as opposed to establishing some new
process, that is one way to expedite the delivery of additional
infrastructure spending and that through the use of a formula-
based funding, projects will actually therefore get built
faster than they would otherwise?
Mr. Panos. Yes, Mr. Chairman. You know, we can move
projects through the current program structure faster than we
could through any new structure that would have to be
implemented, although, of course, any streamlining reforms
would be helpful. But certainly the existing process would be
very effective.
Senator Barrasso. So you think this is kind of a ready-made
way to distribute the funds in terms of we should be
considering this for any infrastructure, any comprehensive
infrastructure bill?
Mr. Panos. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. In your written and oral testimony you
have laid out a series of additional targeted streamlining
provisions, and you just made a comment about those. Some
believe that we should wait until the streamlining provisions
of the FAST Act are actually implemented before we consider any
additional streamlining. Can you talk about what your response
would be to that argument?
Mr. Panos. Yes, I can, Mr. Chairman. The public is eager to
improve our infrastructure. An improved process would help
that. So I respectfully disagree with the argument. And we have
made it clear on the first page of our written statement that
we can streamline requirements and processes while protecting
the environment and other public interests. So we ask that our
suggestions be considered on their merits. We owe it to the
public to look hard for win-wins.
Further, and importantly, Mr. Chairman, some of the issues
we address were not ripe during the development of past
legislation. The overreaching rules to monitor traffic even on
rural routes and HS routes had not been promulgated. Giving a
fresh look at stewardship agreements wasn't discussed. So we
simply ask for a fair consideration of our ideas on the merits.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Mr. Panos.
Ms. Pilconis, the Associated General Contractors believes
that there are still some opportunities to further streamline
some of the transportation projects. Now, we all support and
commend the bipartisan work that occurred when we passed MAP-21
and the FAST Act, but can you elaborate a little bit on some of
the limitations of these streamlining reforms?
Ms. Pilconis. Some of the limitations of the streamlining
reforms that were----
Senator Barrasso. Of the streamlining reforms that are
there in terms of adding some more, yes. Some of the ones that
have already come forward through the MAP-21 and the FAST Act.
Ms. Pilconis. Oh, yes, of course. Well, with the reforms
that have already been passed, some of the limitations really
lie with the amount of exemptions that are provided within
those reforms. So, for example, where there are requirements to
conduct concurrent reviews, those requirements can be waived if
an agency can say that it would impair their ability to conduct
any analysis or meet any obligation. Under the FAST Act, they
don't have to do it so long as they could say that it would
impair their ability to review the project. So there are
significant exceptions to the requirement to conduct concurrent
reviews.
Similarly, where there are deadlines within current law
requiring you to complete a review within a certain amount of
time, so, for example, under MAP-21, there is a 180-day
deadline for permits, licenses, or other approvals. Within that
180-day deadline, the agency can say, well, I don't have all of
the information that I need to say that that application is
complete, or I am waiting for another entity to make a decision
before I can move forward. And in that sense the agency, the
deciding agency is essentially self-policing because they will
say I don't have the information that I need, so I don't have
to meet that deadline. And in fact, the lead agency would then
have to take the initiative to really elevate that to a level
of dispute to say, no, you do have all the information that you
in fact need and really, that is just not happening.
Senator Barrasso. And then are there barriers that still
exist within the construction industry that might interfere
with the application of, say, new technologies to accelerate
some of the project deliveries?
Ms. Pilconis. I think not barriers, but in fact there are
many technologies that provide great opportunities. For
example, now that we have aerial photography, drones, GIS data,
LIDAR data. In fact, there are so many ways that we are
collecting information that can be used in centralized data
bases and accessed via the Internet so that we are not
repeating processes, so that when you need to conduct a review
in a situation where it is a similar project or a similar set
of circumstances or similar ecological or natural or resource
concerns, you can pull from information that has already been
collected, that is logged and categorized, and apply it rather
than redoing it.
Senator Barrasso. My final question, Mr. Panos, my
perception is that you have identified a number of ways that we
can reduce bureaucracy. But there doesn't seem to be anything
that you have promoted or talked about that actually reduces
environmental protection. Am I correct that you are continuing
to protect the environment?
Mr. Panos. Yes. I mean, we have focused on improving the
process, Mr. Chairman. In addition, we have addressed some
areas that are not part of the environmental review process. We
cut back on some non-productive data collection requirements
and other requirements. That would enable us to put effort and
resources into infrastructure, including safety projects.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. Thanks again.
Our appreciation to all of you for being here and for
helping us with this. This is a great panel, and I want us to
use this opportunity to try to develop some consensus, to see
where you agree, because to the extent that this panel can
agree, it is enormously helpful to us as we go forward.
So let me start out with John. We went down a whole list of
items. You gave us five at the end of your testimony.
Did he say anything, Leah, that you actually agreed with in
those five comments? And you may want to refresh your memory,
and ours as well. Did he say anything in those last five? He
said there are five things you ought to do.
Ms. Pilconis. Things that were sticking out to me were
comments that he was making related to the items that are in
the FAST Act that are requiring early coordination. There is a
large amount in the FAST Act that is dealing with the Federal
Permitting Improvement Council that is requiring early
consultation, coordinated project planning, the dashboard,
laying out your timetables. These things are really going to be
very effective at bringing the parties together very early on
in the process, getting everybody in the same room and on the
same page.
And that is one of the reasons why AGC is suggesting that
so much is happening during the NEPA process; it is the
umbrella process where all of the other environmental statutes
are being brought together, all of the other agencies that have
any jurisdiction over the process. And in great part because of
FAST Act, reforms are going to be brought to the table to
engage in discussion and set some timelines.
So the information that is generated during that time, the
data that is collected, the surveys that are done, the
mitigation plans that are written into the final environmental
impact statement, that should be used to meet the permitting
obligations. So that will be helpful.
Senator Carper. Good.
I am going to turn the tables. Leah went through a whole
list of things in about half of her statement, just one after
the other that we ought to do, could do to help expedite the
processes and maybe get better results for less money. Just
thinking back to some of the things that she mentioned,
anything there that you find had special value?
Mr. Porcari. Great question, Senator. If I may, first,
Director Panos pointed out that the vast majority of projects
are proceeding under categorical exclusion, and we shouldn't
forget 95 percent or so, there are more CATEX categories in
broadening that can help those projects. But for the major
projects, which are the visible ones, the 5 percent or so, the
type of process that Leah described, where you are front
loading it, where the collaboration among the agencies is
required in the beginning so that you don't have conflicts down
the road, or the a-ha moments late in the process where you
essentially have to start over, that is both common sense. It
is encouraged in the FAST Act, and it is something I think we
all agree, when it happens in practice, you get great results,
for example, with the Tappan Zee Bridge.
Senator Carper. All right.
Mr. Panos, great to see you again. Elaine Chao is our
Secretary of Transportation. I think she will be a good one.
She was quoted as saying the other day, the problem is not the
money, with respect to actually moving projects along,
transportation projects along. The problem is not the money. I
had a delightful meeting with her about a week ago, and we
talked about how money could help solve some of the problems.
Do you agree the problem is not the money?
Mr. Panos. Senator, I do agree that the problem is both
money and process. We have to have both in parallel. As we
deploy the money, we need----
Senator Carper. Good. That is all you need to say.
Leah, do you agree with that? Is it both? Can we walk and
chew gum at the same time? Is money part of the problem, as
well as the process?
Ms. Pilconis. Yes, absolutely.
Senator Carper. And John.
Mr. Porcari. It absolutely is. And if I may give a project
example, the Gateway Project, multibillion dollar project
tunnel under the Hudson River. We have a 24-month EIS process.
It is half the usual time. It is the money part that is going
to hold up the replacement of that 106-year-old tunnel.
Senator Carper. I just say to my colleagues I think we are
spending about--I want to say, roughly $56 billion a year out
of Federal dollars for roads, highways, bridges projects,
something like that. I think the revenues that are coming in
are about $36 billion a year. And somewhere those lines cross,
and we run out of money again, and we need to be serious about
all these huge backlogs of projects we have across the country.
We have to be serious about doing something about it.
Streamlining, fine. We have done some. Is there more that we
can do? If we use common sense, I am sure there is. But we need
the money.
It was the Beatles who used to sing the best things are
free, but you can give them to the birds and bees; I want
money. We need some revenue. And the idea of the users paying
for this stuff, user fee approach I think is certainly a good
way to go. We have always done that. Those who use roads,
highways, bridges pay for them; businesses, people. I think
that is still a pretty good approach.
Thank you all so much.
With apologies to McCartney and Lennon.
Senator Inhofe [presiding]. Thank you, Senator Carper.
First of all, I ask unanimous consent that included in the
record a letter from ARTBA, the American Road and
Transportation Builders Association. It is very revealing. It
is a statement concerning streamlining.
Without objection, that will be part of the record.
[The referenced information follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Carper. Mr. Chairman, could I make just a quick
unanimous consent request? I am sorry I didn't do this before.
I would ask unanimous consent to submit three items for the
record: CRS Report, testimony from Earthjustice and other
groups, and USDOT OIG's report that I mentioned in my opening
statement.
Senator Inhofe. Without objection, they will be made a part
of the record.
[The referenced information follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Inhofe. First of all, Director Panos, nice to have
you back.
Mr. Panos. Thank you.
Senator Inhofe. Your testimony is always revealing. You
know, there has been a lot of talk about the FAST Act and the
things that we have done in this Committee.
Let me just commend the Democrats and the Republicans,
both, on the Committee that we have done things other
committees don't do. We not only did the FAST Act, we did the
Water Act, we did the Chemical Act. So we are kind of the
Committee that gets things done and works together. And I see
this as no exception.
When you were talking about your categorical exclusions,
the discussion came up, I think it was with the Chairman asking
the questions, with the question as to why should we do
anything more until we have completed the exclusion process
that is already in place. My feeling, and the feeling of people
from Oklahoma, Mr. Panos, is that we need to be doing both at
the same time. If you sit around and wait, that is just going
to stall the things that we should be doing in order to
streamline these projects. Somehow, I have always associated
streamlining with how many more miles can we get out of a
project, or how many more miles and more bridges can we get.
So I would ask you do you agree with the concept that we
need to be doing all at the same time? And then, also, the kind
of delays still associated with exclusion.
Mr. Panos.
Mr. Panos. Senator, I would agree that we need to do all at
the same time, and our proposals really don't have potential to
be negatively interactive at all with the existing streamlining
that is going on. Some of the issues that we address, again, as
I had stated, were not ripe during the development of past
legislation; today they are, and it is about continuous
improvement while some of the other streamlining is going on.
So, to answer your question, I would say both.
With regards to CATEX, Senator, I would just say, as our
testimony stated, there are some more categories that could be
included. We use it frequently in Wyoming and other rural
States, and more of CATEX would be helpful to us.
Senator Inhofe. That is very helpful.
So that everybody knows what is happening, we are in the
middle of a vote right now. I am staying until the Chairman
gets back, and hopefully we can get through, Senator
Whitehouse, as soon as I conclude here. Or in fact, I will even
interrupt mine so you can get away, if you need to.
Now, I want to come back to you and ask you for some
specific projects that you feel would be good to be given the
privileges of the exclusions that were under discussion.
Before we do that, Ms. Pilconis, you made some comments,
and it hasn't been discussed yet in terms of questions, on the
citizen suits, and the costs and delays that come with these,
and I would like to have you kind of go over with us what types
of delays are there. And then when you mentioned there are four
or five suggestions that came out of the contractors, if you
were to single that down to one or two suggestions, what would
that be?
Ms. Pilconis. Yes, sir, thank you.
Well, the delays are extensive. I think there is a project
right now that you can look at in the press, the I-70 project
in Denver. It is a billion dollar project, and the project
hasn't gotten off the ground yet because of citizen suits,
suits that are really attempting to delay or stop the project,
and potentially just stall it until the 2018 election where
there may be a new Governor who has a different opinion about
the project.
So citizen suits are a problem where it is preventing the
public from realizing the benefit, as I said, of cleaner water,
safer roads and bridges, a more efficient and reliable energy
system. And some of the things that we have looked at are the
positive improvements in the current streamlining reforms where
it is shortening the statute of limitations. There are two
different timelines under MAP-21 and FAST-41. So perhaps having
a consistent timeline----
Senator Inhofe. OK, just a minute. I am going to ask you to
elaborate on that because I am staying here when everybody else
is gone, so there is going to be plenty of time.
[Laughter.]
Senator Inhofe. But let's go ahead. I know that Senator
Sullivan has to preside as soon as we vote, and he had one
question he wanted to move in front of Senator Whitehouse.
Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Senator
Whitehouse, thank you.
I really appreciate the panelists. This is a really
important topic. We are going to be introducing a bill called
the Rebuild America Now Act, which relates directly to this
infrastructure streamlining the permitting process.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record a Wall
Street Journal article on this topic from December 2016.
Senator Inhofe. Without objection.
[The referenced article follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Sullivan. And my very quick question is, I still
believe that there are a whole host of things that we can do
that weren't included in the FAST Act. And again, to the
Chairman's credit, this is a Committee that gets things done in
a bipartisan way. But I think there are a number of things,
whether it is categorical exclusions, whether it is timelines,
because when you look across the country, you know, it takes,
on average, 60 years to permit a bridge. It took, in Alaska,
almost 20 years to permit a gold mine. The average in a GAO
study from 10 years ago talked about highways taking, from
beginning of planning and permitting to completion, 9 to almost
20 years.
I mean, we still have enormous problems. What would you say
beyond what was in the MAP-21 and FAST Act, which is a good
start, but from my perspective we need to do much, much more.
And by the way, it is not just the members here, but one of the
things that we are doing with our bill right now is the vast
majority of the building trades, unions that build things, see
this as their highest priority. So we are hopeful to get a
bipartisan bill out of the Committee.
But what would be the issues that you would focus on that
aren't currently in the law?
Ms. Pilconis. I am sorry, I didn't realize that question
was directed at me. Thank you. I appreciate that.
We are very much focused on requiring a nationwide merger
of NEPA and the 404 permit process. We are also focused on more
generally requiring the monitoring, mitigation, and other
environmental planning work that is generated during the NEPA
process, and that is included in the final environmental impact
statement to satisfy the Federal environmental permitting
requirements.
So if I can use the 404 permitting process as an example,
we are focused in on 404 permitting and being part of the NEPA
process so that when you complete NEPA, you actually have your
final 404 permit approval from the Corps, because those
processes are the longest, they are the most costly. With the
404 permitting, you have the most disagreements, and we have
identified in our written statement that that is really where
you have the most chokepoints. And I say chokepoints because
with 404 permitting you are bringing in many related
consultations, approvals, and certifications. So you are
bringing in other agencies where you are doing a 401 water
quality certification with the States, you have 408 approvals,
you have endangered species consultations. Maybe you have
historic properties. Maybe you have coastal zone management
issues; migratory birds; wild and scenic rivers.
All of these agencies--if you are doing 404 permitting
after NEPA, so it is not happening concurrently--all have to
get together again and go through the same things that you have
already discussed during NEPA. It is almost a do-over. Let's
get it done during NEPA. Let's rely on the information that is
collected during NEPA. And processing times are further
extended by many months when the Corps will not accept the
wetland delineation procedures that have come out of the NEPA
process. That is creating a lot of uncertainty in the 404
process. It is increasing the cost of construction.
Senator Sullivan. Thank you. That is a great idea. We look
forward to working with you on that.
And thank you again, Senator Whitehouse.
Senator Inhofe. Good.
Senator Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. Thank you.
For the record, Chairman Inhofe has led us through a
considerable number of bipartisan successes in this Committee,
and I hope that this forum provides the opportunity for another
bipartisan success in this Committee. But I do think, in order
for that to happen, what needs to be clear is that we are not
using the general problem of citing often controversial
projects as an excuse just to attack environmental regulation.
I would like to read from a Treasury Department document.
Forty proposed U.S. transportation water infrastructure
projects have major economic significance, which on page 6
concludes that these projects ``face four major challenges to
completion: (A) limited public resources, (B) significantly
increased capital costs, (C) extended program and project
review and permitting processes, and (D) lack of consensus
among multiple public and private sector entities. A lack of
public funding is by far the most common factor hindering the
completion of transportation and water infrastructure
projects.''
That sentiment is echoed by the Congressional Research
Service report, which I would like to ask unanimous consent to
put into the record, responding to the Philip Howard ``Two
Years, Not Ten Years'' report, and saying that CRS could find
no information suggesting that compliance with Federal
requirements ``delayed'' the project, which this relates to our
T. F. Green Airport in Rhode Island. Within the timeframe
available, the planning and the design and the engineering
phases of development can take years for large and/or complex
construction projects. Factors that may play a more significant
role in the development of projects identified in the Howard
report are primarily the lack of funding, local opposition, and
design and engineering challenges.
I would also like to add to the record the Memorandum of
Understanding that was entered into between the City of Warwick
and our Rhode Island Airport Authority, which relates problems
like the Land Acquisition Program, the Winslow Park ballfields,
the relocation of Main Avenue, historical cemeteries, community
outreach, and water and air quality, and note that there is
actually a pending action between the city and the Airport
Authority over that project.
So we have a situation in which, very often, projects that
are not thought through, are not fully engineered, or haven't
been worked adequately with the local communities then take a
long time, as the extension of the T. F. Green Airport runway
did. But if you took out the NEPA process, you would still have
all those same issues with the local community.
I will tell you, when you have an airport in a city, and
the City hates what the Airport Authority is doing, you have a
problem on your hands. So working through to that Memorandum of
Understanding was really the important solution in that, not
undoing environmental regulations.
I would, on a positive note, describe one incident that
took place in Rhode Island with respect to deepwater wind.
Rhode Island is the first State in the country to get steel in
the water to build offshore wind facilities, and as of last
week paid electrons are now flowing into the grid and Block
Island is having lower cost electricity as a result of this.
Here is what we did. We had a bold State agency that
decided it was going to regulate in Federal waters. Just go
ahead and do it. And they put together an extremely wide
ranging process in which all major stakeholders were brought to
the table together. They brought in the University of Rhode
Island to provide factual and scientific support for
allegations or concerns that were made in that process and to
run the facts down and provide the best science.
And the result was that we went quite rapidly through that
process and did such a good job that when it came time for the
Department of Interior to provide its review, they basically
promised Senator Reed and I that they would, if they viewed the
Rhode Island process as having been adequate, not require a
whole second process with them. So they looked closely at the
Rhode Island process; they said you guys did a great job, we
are done with it, you are licensed, get going.
The result is that we have steel in the water off of Rhode
Island, we have people at work, we have boats being built to
service all of that, we have electrons flowing. And just one
State over, in Massachusetts, you have Cape Wind that died on
the regulatory cross because they were never able to organize
their regulatory process well enough.
So the lesson that I have learned in the long life of
looking at these things is that if you really want to move
projects expeditiously forward, getting everybody in the room
together, making the process itself more expeditious is the way
to do it, rather than singling out the environmental aspect of
a process and blaming that for everybody's woes, and then
trying to smash the environmental protections that are often
significant, but not always significant, in these projects.
So I offer that in the spirit of a manner of going forward
in bipartisan fashion.
I saw John Porcari doing a lot of nodding. Do you want to
respond quickly to that?
Mr. Porcari. Senator, I think you are bringing up a very
important point, which is there are a lot of other potential
issues on projects that we haven't really talked about,
including community issues. The same principles that we have
been talking about, front loading the process and getting the
stakeholders around the table in the beginning, so everyone
hears the same thing at the same time, is really important. And
as you unpack these case studies, it is clear that many of the
things that tripped up these projects for multiple years could
have been avoided by doing it in a concurrent process with
everyone around the table.
Thank you.
Senator Whitehouse. Thank you, Chairman.
Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Thank you very much, Senator
Whitehouse.
Senator Rounds.
Senator Rounds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Director Panos, in your written testimony you cite concerns
with subjecting rural States to the same rules as more densely
populated States. Can you explain to the Committee how these
requirements impact a rural State like Wyoming or South
Dakota's ability to complete transportation and infrastructure
projects in a timely fashion?
Mr. Panos. Thank you, Senator. As I stated in my oral
testimony, the kind of requirements take our very limited
resources in rural States away from doing transportation
projects, and specifically some safety projects. We simply
don't have enough people to do all of the things that are being
required by some of these additional requirements like the ones
that I cited, the congestion studying the data points for the
congestion study.
Again, as I stated in my oral testimony, we simply don't
have urban congestion in Wyoming, and so to go out and spend a
number of hours looking at dirt roads and looking at very rural
highways that have very, very few cars on them, I have traveled
once on a road, a two-lane road, an NHS road in Wyoming for 4
hours and did not see another car.
Senator Rounds. More goats than cars?
Mr. Panos. More antelope than cars, yes, Senator. So we
just don't have the same situation.
And I guess the point is that there are differences among
the States. And I want to commend the Congress and commend,
frankly, the U.S. Department of Transportation and this
Committee for making steps toward those goals. But we are not
done. There is more to do relative to not just environmental
process improvement and streamlining, but non-environmental
process review and streamlining like some of those that we had
suggested earlier.
Senator Rounds. I am going to follow that up a little bit
on something that I think was important you talked about
earlier. Can you explain how State stewardship and oversight
agreements are turning into Federal regulations instead of
oversight? In other words, what can be done to strengthen what
should be an equal partnership between USDOT and State DOTs to
streamline the process and make it a substantive partnership
rather than a back doorway to impose additional Federal
regulations?
Mr. Panos. Senator, we believe that the stewardship
agreements have been an excellent start for us to work in an
understandable, cooperative way, very efficient way with our
USDOT partners. So they are a great start. We think that there
are improvements to be made because of the inconsistencies from
State to State, particularly with rural States, but also that
some of them have been used to deliver additional requirements
that we don't find in statute. And it is these kinds of
streamlining, this kind of sort of extension of the use of the
stewardship agreements that we would like to just take a look
at, work with the Congress and USDOT, and make some
improvements to those, because it is, and can be, an extremely
valuable tool for us to move projects forward, a great
platform, if you will, Senator.
Senator Rounds. Before I leave this particular line, in
your testimony you pointed out that requiring the concurrence
of every other agency that has a meaningful role in the process
extends the timeline for completion of a project. Can you
discuss an experience? You have the anecdotes behind it and the
reason why you share it. Tell us the experience you had with
this where a project was delayed for this particular reason and
suggest a solution.
Mr. Panos. Senator, we have had a project in our North
Sheridan area, which is close to the Montana border, that the
lead agency had established a schedule, but the U.S. Army Corps
of Engineers, with their 404 permit program, did not agree
with, so they extended the project. And I think I had mentioned
it in my previous testimony to this Committee that we spent 10
years on a project that takes 10 months to build. We were able
to resolve it and get it built, it is under construction now,
but it took about 10 years to get there, and it was because of
this issue.
In our written and oral testimony, one of the solutions
that the Committee could consider is giving the lead agency the
authority to establish the schedule with consultation with some
of the other agencies to ensure that that schedule meets their
needs, and then deploy that schedule and not have those other
agencies have veto power, if you will, over that schedule as it
moves forward. And there would be an appeal process to resolve
disagreements, and that appeal process even could involve the
White House at some point.
But the point is that there could be a process which could
expedite these projects even further without sacrificing
environmental compliance, without sacrificing public interests.
So we believe that that is a possible solution and one that the
Congress should look at.
Thank you, Senator.
Senator Rounds. Thank you, sir.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Rounds.
Senator Booker.
Senator Booker. Mr. Chairman, I am grateful.
Mr. Porcari, if you don't mind, I am going to direct my
questioning to you. First of all, I am just grateful for your
leadership. You are really playing what I think is an essential
role for our country right now as Interim Director of the
Gateway Development Corporation. I have become obsessed for the
last 3 years of my life with getting this northeast corridor
fixed and getting this Gateway Project done. We were able to
resurrect it from something that had been killed to now
something that seems to be moving forward. The previous
Administration put it as part of their presidential dashboard
and prioritized it.
Most people have no understanding about, No. 1, that
northeast corridor region, one of the most economically
productive regions on the planet Earth. More people travel
along the northeast corridor by rail than by plane. But more
than this, it is a vital artery, it is like the jugular vein in
terms of the arteries of our country. And right now it is being
constricted to the point where we are seeing every week it is
eroding productivity, it is undermining the well-being of New
Jerseyans, as well as others, because of that clogged artery
and because of the challenges.
This is a case study, in my opinion, of us going from an
enlightened American age where we invested in infrastructure
and knew it was essential for jobs, essential for economic
productivity, to what is a nightmare era where we took the
inheritance from our grandparents and trashed it, didn't invest
it, and are now left with, in this case, from the portal bridge
to those two tunnels which are just decaying, over a century
old. It was actually faster to travel along the northeast in
the 1960s, half an hour quicker, than it is today.
So you are right there in the center of what is perhaps, at
least according to the last Administration, the No. 1 most
urgent infrastructure project in the United States of America
because of all the economic activity that is essential to that.
And again, one of the biggest concerns I hear about from my
residents is how the delays and the unpredictability of transit
between New York and New Jersey has just undermined the quality
of life for individuals, making residents of New Jersey move
back into New York because of that problem.
So getting this project done is so important. That is why
your leadership, to me, is so central right now.
I know you made some comments, while I was off voting,
about some of the process that is going on right now, the
environmental review process, and I wonder if you can just talk
for a second about any of the critical lessons you have learned
and how that relates to the urgency of getting this project
completed.
Mr. Porcari. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate the question.
As you point out, the Gateway Project is eliminating a single
point of failure for 10 percent of America's gross domestic
product, and between the Portal North Bridge, the bridge and
the tunnel component, both of which are 106 years old, both of
which were open to passenger service while the Titanic was
under construction and the Wright Brothers were switching from
the Model A to the Model B flyer, replacing those single points
of failure is critical.
The first part of the project, the Portal North Bridge, is
100 percent designed, 100 percent permitted. It is ready to go
subject to funding. It just missing the Federal funding
component. The local funding component is in place.
The tunnel component, which by any standards is a major
EIS, is on an accelerated basis. Instead of what was typically
a 48-month or more process, it will be completed in 24 months
or less. We will have a draft environmental impact statement in
the next 60 days. One of the lessons from this is some of the
very things that you have heard from the other witnesses and
myself today, which is you can run the process concurrently.
You have all the stakeholders in a front-loaded process around
the table in the beginning, and the other associated permits,
even outside of the NEPA process, whether it is the Corps 404
permit, Coast Guard bridge permit or anything else, they can
today be run concurrently. They aren't always, but they can be.
And that should be the norm, not the exception. And I think
that is a place where we all agree.
So the Gateway Project shows, as well, that one of the
unwritten but critical success ingredients is leadership,
internally and externally. Externally, you and your fellow
Senators from both New Jersey and New York, and both Governors,
have positioned the project so that it is ready to move
forward. It would not have happened without that personal
leadership.
Senator Booker. And I appreciate that, and this is
something that I have invested a considerable amount of my time
in in trying to get this project as expeditiously done as
possible. But critically, your leadership and that of others
who have been able to shrink dramatically the usual time it
gets to get reviews, everything from the early engineering
specs to the environmental reviews, has been extraordinary.
I want to just conclude by saying I am really happy that
Senator Wicker just walked in at this time, because it has been
a bipartisan----
Senator Wicker. [Remarks made off microphone.]
[Laughter.]
Senator Barrasso. The Chairman recalls seeing you earlier,
Senator Wicker.
Senator Booker. And the word around the whole Senate is
that you were focusing on the issues of your great State, sir,
and we understand how you are pulled in many different
directions. But the enlightenment of this bipartisan coalition
to invest in rail, and you said that the issue for us right now
is not the speed with which we are getting this done, it is
waiting for the funding. And I was very happy, with Senator
Wicker, to come up with a bipartisan compromise to fund rail
not only in areas like the northeast corridor, but to
understand that rail is essential for economic growth, job
creation. Dollars invested in rail produce multiples of return
that anyone in New York City would celebrate in terms of the
financial markets.
I just want to conclude by saying that that was critical
about the CR that we just did, the bipartisan compromise, and
right now it is a celebration for the Gateway Project to keep
the resources there, and I just want to really give credit.
This is the Committee that focuses on these issues. I know the
Chairman, I know leaders like Roger Wicker have shown their
commitment to making strategic investments of public dollars to
get a boon in job creation and economic growth, and I am
grateful for my colleagues. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Booker.
I would like to next turn to Senator Wicker, who has worked
closely with me on issues related to his home State of
Mississippi and has continued to be focused on infrastructure
needs there.
Senator Wicker.
Senator Wicker. Well, thank you very much. This is a
typical morning where I rush from a vote, after having attended
two hearings, two very important hearings on national defense
and connectivity. So it is regrettable that I had to miss the
testimony. But I certainly want to be here, Mr. Chairman.
And to my friend, Senator Booker, as a statement, first of
all, about the importance of infrastructure and say that it
seems to me that this might be one of the big areas that we
would go ahead and address quickly on a bipartisan basis,
because there is bipartisan support for infrastructure. Of
course, we are here today talking about transportation
infrastructure.
I have a couple of questions regarding challenges and
roadblocks for the entire panel, and also a question about
rural States like mine versus urban States like New Jersey,
perhaps.
There are certainly regulatory hurdles. Can any of you
talk, though, about the legal hurdles? And is there something
to be said for legislation attached to any infrastructure bill
about a certain timeframe in which the courts hear legitimate
concerns, but it is not dragged out forever and ever?
Let me ask about that, if anybody would like to touch on
that, and then I might have a moment or two to ask about the
differences in getting to urban areas, where there is a lot of
toll roads, and rural areas like Mississippi where there are
none.
So, Mr. Panos, were you prepared to talk about the legal
challenges?
Mr. Panos. Senator, on the timing not so much, but I can
talk a little bit about we were speaking earlier about the
delegation to States of NEPA authority, and that some States
have taken that on. Not a lot of smaller States have, and one
of the reasons is a legal issue. The liability associated with
taking on those responsibilities is significant for a small
State, and it is a consideration for us, in addition to the
capacity that we have to exercise sort of NEPA authority.
Also, we deal mostly with projects that are CEs or CATEX
projects, categorically excluded projects. So we don't really
have a need to do that. And frankly, even if we had the
opportunity to take on that authority, we may not do that.
So that is the only legal side.
The second part of your question, I apologize, Senator.
Senator Wicker. Well, let's let others discuss the lawsuit
impediments, and then I might get back to the other about the
small States versus large States.
Mr. Panos. Thank you, Senator.
Ms. Pilconis. Sure. Thank you. So there are timelines
within current law, setting a statute of limitations. There are
different timelines in both MAP-21 and FAST-41, so there might
be some merit in synchronizing the timelines. One is 150 days;
one is 180 days.
Also, in FAST-41 there is a sort of get-in or get-out
provision, so if you need to have been involved in commenting
during the NEPA process and have commented on the issue in
sufficient detail to have grounds, then, to bring a lawsuit, I
think that Congress should consider making that an across the
board requirement.
In addition, you might want to further consider and clarify
the requirements for legal standing in general. AGC members
have brought up the idea and suggested requiring that bonds be
posted by plaintiffs seeking to block activities.
And with regard to environmental statutes, so not the
procedural requirements, but actually the 20 environmental
statutes that have citizen suit provisions, so those statutes
obviously have resulted in hundreds and hundreds of
environmental regulations that are very, very complex and
difficult to understand, and have a lot of gray areas. So we
would suggest that the enforcement of those very complex
Federal environmental rules be enforced only by trained staff
of Government agencies.
Senator Wicker. OK. Well, Mr. Chairman, if I might, since I
touched on the other, and since Mr. Panos mentioned it in his
written testimony, what I want you to do, if you don't mind,
sir, is elaborate on the concern that you expressed on page 8
about public-private partnerships and approaches that work in
the more densely populated States and might not work in States
like Wyoming and Mississippi.
Mr. Panos. Senator, in my written testimony as well as
previous testimony in front of this Committee, I talked a
little bit about the application of private-public partnerships
in rural States. First I would say that it depends, I think, a
lot on how you define public-private partnerships. There is a
lot of variation in people's perceptions about what is and what
is not a public-private partnership.
In our case, I think public-private partnerships in rural
States are not the solution. We don't have toll roads, as in
your State. It is unlikely that we will have the kind of equity
and the kind of economic value that would be attractive to a
public-private partnership in some of the definitions that I
have heard.
Now, we do have an opportunity to do what we will call
creative contracting, and bring in private partners to help us
with warranties and other kinds of things associated with
projects, but certainly public-private partnerships where there
is an up front investment of capital just simply doesn't have
the kind of return in rural States that it does in urban
States.
Senator Wicker. Thank you very much.
And thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Senator
Wicker.
And by the early bird rule, Senator Fischer is next.
Senator Fischer, thanks.
Senator Fischer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to our witnesses today.
Director Panos, thank you for being here again. In your
written testimony you advocate for waiver authority for the
Federal Highway Administration to be able to provide relief for
rigid rules when unforeseen circumstances arise that can
severely delay our projects. Could you elaborate on the value
of these waivers and how they might facilitate greater
innovation and compliance?
Mr. Panos. Senator, anything that can offer us a
partnership which will perform better is a good thing. And
there are times when waivers can be effective and not impact
environmental compliance or environmental needs or public
interests. So when those conditions occur, it would be optimal
for us to have a waiver system that is regularly exercised that
allows for projects to move forward, and focused on regulatory
requirements, specifically focused on regulatory requirements.
It would be very helpful.
Senator Fischer. OK. Thank you.
Ms. Pilconis, in your written testimony you go into really
quite extensive detail regarding NEPA process and the
cumbersome permitting process, the requirements for our
infrastructure projects. Certainly, each of us here wants to
protect the environment and protect our precious natural
resources. But from my perspective, we now have a process in
place that is not only expensive, I think it is inefficient.
Last week our Nebraska Governor signed a bill into law that
would allow the Nebraska Department of Roads to assume
authority over the NEPA process, and we currently have several
States that have that same process implemented, like Ohio and
California, Florida and Utah.
From your perspective, has this been a successful endeavor,
and would you recommend that more States assume that NEPA
permitting process?
Ms. Pilconis. Thank you for the question. That actually is
not something that we have explored in our recommendations, the
State assumption of the NEPA process. What we have really been
most focused on is the concurrent review and issuance of the
permit during the NEPA process, so that you don't have the
permitting come after the NEPA process is complete. We are not
focused on excluding anything, but rather avoiding duplication,
so that you are not trying to complete the same consultations
and reviews a second time.
Senator Fischer. Now, have you found, though, when that
permitting process works together, I would assume that it works
more smoothly. But do you still have a lot of back and forth? I
see that. I see that, that the Federal Government comes in and
requires more, and then the State has to answer. Does that help
eliminate that at all? Time is money when you look at
infrastructure projects.
Ms. Pilconis. So a good way to explain it, and something
that I think the chart that we have prepared illustrates, is
how much duplication that you have throughout the system. So
within the NEPA process, it is kind of----
Senator Fischer. The famous chart.
Ms. Pilconis. Yes, the famous chart that is at the very
top. So if you have any project where you are on Federal land
or you have Federal funding or you need a Federal permit, you
are going to be going through the NEPA process; you are going
to be bringing in all of the other environmental statutes where
they are having some kind of impact on the project. And all the
agencies that are related to jurisdiction over those programs
are all coming to the table.
So let's say you have a project where you are evaluating
endangered species, historic properties, Coastal Zone
Management Act issues. Now, those same issues, endangered
species consultation, coastal zone management issues, historic
properties, they are triggered again with every single Federal
permit. So if you were to follow the color tracks down, if you
need a 404 permit for your project and you are doing that
separately, after NEPA, you again are doing endangered species
consultation and those other steps. If you need a NIPT
stormwater permit, again.
So the amount of time that it takes to get all those
parties together and to reengage in those conversations, if you
were benefiting from the streamlining provisions that we have
in place, having early outreach, meetings, and involvement,
everybody at the table during NEPA, let's get it done, use the
work product from the NEPA process and not be repeating
efforts.
Senator Fischer. Well, hopefully we can achieve that and
cut back on some of this duplication, because we do have
limited resources when it comes to these projects, and as I
said, time is money when it comes to infrastructure. And if we
are going to invest in the future, we have to be able to
stretch taxpayer dollars and make them really count. So thank
you very much.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Fischer.
Senator Capito.
Senator Capito. Thank you.
I want to thank all of you and extend apologies for not
being here for the beginning. We are all running between our
various committees, and we were over on Commerce, too.
We have spent a lot of time, and I am going to jump into
the public-private partnership discussion. The consensus seems
to be that P3 is ideal for projects, but as we have talked
about, for rural America not quite so easy.
I would like to talk about, shortly, an example of
something that is most unusual, and I wanted to see if anybody
had run into this kind of a case.
Last week I participated in a stakeholder meeting with
Congressman Evan Jenkins from West Virginia to discuss a
project called the King Coal Highway. To make a long story
short, a coal company is seeking to operate on a stretch of
land that would become part of the highway. The State and local
governments are working with the private sector to have, with
the relevant 404 permitting, terms requiring it as the land is
returned, which they are required to return the land after
mining activity, that it would become flattened, and it would
become pavement-ready, which, in a State like ours, is pretty
difficult sometimes for the State Department of Transportation
to lay down a stretch of highway.
This would all of the stakeholders to coordinate--this has
been going on for years, years, and it has been stonewalled,
and we are back at it again. But it would cut construction
costs for the State to the tune of about $110 million.
So I am curious to know, Mr. Panos, have you run into any
kind of unusual P3 projects that are sort of nonconventional
like this in your State?
Mr. Panos. Senator, I can actually give you two examples
that are, as you have described, nonconventional P3 projects.
One is exactly or very much like what you just talked about,
the replacement of a road by a coal mine associated with their
work. They needed to get to an area where there was a State
highway, and we simply negotiated with them over a period of
time to replace that State highway with another State highway,
frankly, an upgraded one, and they did that. And then we turned
over----
Senator Capito. Was that just a State-to-State transaction?
Were there Federal----
Mr. Panos. It was a Federal-State-county-city interaction.
Senator Capito. OK.
Mr. Panos. But it was recent, in the last year. We have,
like your State and like your example, have done it very
frequently.
Another example of a nontraditional, I guess you would say,
and it is not really a P3, it is more of, again, this idea of
creative contracting.
Senator Capito. Right.
Mr. Panos. We have one of the largest snow fence
inventories in the United States, I think the largest snow
fence inventory in the United States. A private sector company
actually, once we model where the snow fences need to be, they
install, maintain those snow fences at no cost to us. The
return to them is that they use the wood in the furniture
making market and in the flooring market and things like that;
it is aged barn wood, as you can imagine. So that is a creative
contracting, but not a P3. This isn't something that they put
the up front capital into; we do, did, and now they are just
replacing it as we go forward. So it is a little untraditional,
but can be looked at that.
And those are two examples, Senator.
Senator Capito. Very interesting. The first one sounds like
it has a lot of similarities for what we have been trying to
accomplish in a very expensive place to build a road. It would
be a great way to open that up for economic development.
I was just in Commerce Committee, and we were talking about
deployment of broadband. And according to the 2016 FCC
Broadband Progress Report, my State is the 48th best connected.
I am wondering how does that sound? It sounds good, but it is
not good. And Wyoming is number 44, because of lack of
population density, large area of difficult terrain, all the
different areas.
Senator Hatch has introduced a bill called Highway Rights-
of-Way Permitting Efficiency Act, which is cosponsored by me,
Senator Ernst is on the bill, Senator Fischer, that will allow
the Secretaries of Interior and Agriculture to enter into
Memoranda of Understanding with the States to allow them to
approve broadband deployment through Federal lands and to make
the ease of laying that cable through our States. So it is
almost a dig once kind of proposition, but it would really
help, I think, so that we wouldn't have to have redundant
permitting approvals.
I am wondering, obviously Wyoming has great need in the
broadband deployment area. How does that sound to you?
Mr. Panos. Senator, it sounds excellent, and it is
something that we are already deploying with some of our State
rights-of-way and broadband to connect our schools, our public
schools and our rural communities. So I don't know if we are
ahead, but we are certainly on our way toward that goal.
Senator Capito. Thank you.
Ms. Pilconis, do you know of telecommunication
infrastructures that are already being used in existing rights-
of-way, this concept?
Ms. Pilconis. No, I am sorry, I am not familiar with that.
Senator Capito. OK.
All right. Well, I think my time is up.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Capito.
Senator Ernst.
Senator Ernst. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Pilconis, Iowa DOT works closely with the U.S. Army
Corps in obtaining 404 and 408 permits, and I have been told by
the folks at IDOT, or Iowa DOT, that the Section 408 permit is
required prior to the issuance of a Section 404 permit, and
that a streamlining effort to make the 404 and 408 permits
simultaneously would be very helpful.
Can either of you comment on this, or can any of you
comment on this? And relatedly, can you also explain why AGC is
so focused on the 404 permitting process just in general?
Ms. Pilconis. Sure. Thank you. The 408 approval process is
currently something now that is required by law that does come
before the 404 permitting process, and that is something that
our members have identified as a step that is drawing out the
length of time it takes to get approval on a 404 permit. So, in
fact, that is kind of an extra step in the process. It is
something that we have identified in our chart that I continue
to refer to.
So, within the 404 permit process we are so focused on that
and the concept of merging that with the NEPA process because--
and I have mentioned this already--that is a permit that is one
that is the longest to obtain when you are obtaining an
individual permit. Data showed that it is, on average, 788
days. It is the most costly, $270,000 per project. So if you
are doing that after the EIS, you are talking about a large
amount of money and a very long time.
You have the most disagreements, or as I identified in my
written statement, we call them chokepoints in the process, and
that is likely because of the many related consults, approvals,
and certifications that go into 404 permitting. So, as you
said, at the onset it is do I need a 408 approval.
But in addition, because it is a Federal permit, it is also
triggering Endangered Species Act consultation, 401 water
quality certification with the State, historic properties,
Coastal Zone Management Act issues.
Those same things, though--and I want to point this out--
are also triggered with the 408 approval. So if you have a
Federal approval or permit, there are certain things that are
triggered. So that is the duplication that AGC is trying to
stress. You have those same agency consultations happening at
NEPA; you will have them happening with the 408, and you will
have them happening with 404. Therein is the extreme
duplication.
Senator Ernst. I appreciate that. And what we would like to
see, of course, is a much more efficient process going through
that and hopefully, then, less costly, as well, to do those
projects.
Mr. Panos, Iowa is a pay-as-you-go State, pay-as-you-go
funding State for major transportation investments. As you are
aware, there is a fiscal constraint requirement for planning
that requires indication that there is enough revenue available
to construct a project in statewide metropolitan transportation
improvement programs. This requirement causes Iowa significant
challenges in timely development of major projects such as
Mississippi River crossings and projects that would be on the
shelf, ready for funding on short notice.
It is my understanding that when you are at the beginning
stages of the project planning, and you are a pay-as-you-go
State just like Iowa, this adds additional hurdles to project
development. It is kind of that chicken and egg situation, you
know, which came first.
Has there been any discussion of providing reasonable
flexibility with this requirement or decoupling this from NEPA
approval to allow construction-ready projects to proceed
through environmental reviews and continue to progress as funds
become available for pay-as-you-go States like Iowa?
Mr. Panos. Senator, as in my written testimony, in fact, it
is one of the suggestions that we make for improvement to the
process as we move forward, and it is something that the
Congress could consider, should consider as we move forward, is
the idea of pay-as-you-go and the decoupling of it. Not
completely, but there can be some flexibilities in that
process.
Senator Ernst. Very good. I think we would all appreciate a
little more flexibility and efficiency.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will yield back my time.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Ernst.
Senator Carper. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Panos, I looked back through your testimony, and I read
just a short paragraph. I will say it again. ``To some extent,
the increase in the percentage of highway projects receiving
CATEX treatment''--I had to look that up, what is it,
categorically excluded?--categorically excluded treatment
``results from the increasing emphasis given to preservation
type projects within State DOJ budgets. That has been the case
in Wyoming where, in recent years, nearly all projects have
been categorically excluded under NEPA.'' Is that true?
Mr. Panos. That is true, Senator.
Senator Carper. And it says nearly all. I think in my
testimony I said as many as 90 percent are categorically
excluded from NEPA. Is it like closer to 100 percent?
Mr. Panos. I don't know the exact percentage, but it is
significant, and it is primarily the way we go because we are
preserving our highways and not expanding them.
Senator Carper. OK. I am going to ask you a question for
the record just to see if we can nail that down more
accurately, OK? Thank you.
Let me come back to funding. We have a project in southern
Delaware. We have three counties in the county seat of Sussex
County, which is in the south. Third largest county in America.
The county seat is Georgetown. They have an airport just
outside of Georgetown called Delaware Coastal Airport. They
just renamed it Delaware Coastal. And they were trying to
extend the runway length to 6,000 feet so that we can bring in
bigger airplanes to undergo significant work that goes on at a
company there called Aloft. And we are having a hard time
getting this done expeditiously.
The county has finally actually come in. We have already
extended the runway once another 500 feet. The county has said
we will pay for that just to get it moving, so we said that is
good. Now we have to move a road and kind of align one road
with another road, better intersection. And I met with our
secretary of transportation--gosh, a month ago, a terrific
woman, Jennifer Cohen--and I said how are we doing on our
project, and when is it going to be done? I think she said in 4
years. I said, you have to be kidding. You have to be kidding.
It has taken like a number of years already because they didn't
have any money, or enough money to pay for it along with other
projects.
We have another big project up in Wilmington. I-95 comes
right by Wilmington. Northeast corridor comes right through
Wilmington. Eleventh busiest train station in the country. We
have a wonderful riverfront there on the Christina River called
the Riverfront, and we are trying to find a way to get ingress
and egress out of the Riverfront; it is not very good coming
off 95.
On the other side, to the east, we have State Route 13,
which is a major north-south road, and we have gotten money to
do an ingress-egress off Route 13 into the Riverfront, and it
has taken 10 years, and a big part of the problem is money.
Money.
If you were giving us some advice as to how to raise some
money for roads, highways, bridges projects as we look forward
to filling--it is not the cupboard is bare, but there is a lot
more demand, as you know, than there is money to meet the
demand. But just give us a couple of good ideas.
Leah, do you want to go first, please? I think you all have
been very supportive with some other ideas in the past, but
give us a couple good ideas, please.
Ms. Pilconis. The funding issue is not where my expertise
lies, my focus really is on the environmental issues.
Senator Carper. That is fine.
Ms. Pilconis. But AGC definitely does recognize that the
primary challenge to being able to build more infrastructure,
of course, is the funding. We have noted in our testimony that
Congress has not raised the primary source of infrastructure
funding, the Federal gas tax, since 1993.
Senator Carper. Since when?
Ms. Pilconis. 1993.
Senator Carper. That would be how many years? Twenty-four
years.
[Laughter.]
Senator Carper. That would mean that the gas tax, what is
it, 18 cents, is worth about less than a dime----
Ms. Pilconis. Yes, we do that calculation.
Senator Carper. Less than 15 cents. Is that right?
Ms. Pilconis. Also terrible at math.
Senator Barrasso. The Senator is leading the witness.
[Laughter.]
Senator Carper. And you are doing a great job of following.
Ms. Pilconis. In terms of surface transportation, Congress
and the Administration must restore solvency to the Highway
Trust Fund. So we are pointing those things out in our
statement.
Senator Carper. Thank you. For someone who is not the
expert on this, AGC did great.
John, same question.
Mr. Porcari. It is an excellent question, Senator. I would
first point out that local jurisdictions throughout the United
States do self-help measures. Referendum and other measures
have been raising revenues for important projects. So the local
and State component is typically in place. The Federal
Government is a less reliable partner on the funding side than
it used to be, and that, in practical terms, impacts on both
the kind of projects you described. Typically, the larger the
project, the more the uncertainty hurts the project, and that
will be, I think, even more prevalent in the future as you look
at these large projects.
So as important as the discussion is today about
reengineering the process, greater efficiencies, more
concurrent process, all of which we support, that only helps if
the money is there to actually build the project at the end of
it. And in my practical experience with major projects, in
particular at the State level, you are not nearly as driven to
complete the environmental process and other permitting
processes if you don't know the construction money is there at
the other end.
Senator Carper. That is a great point. That is a great
point.
Mr. Panos, Bill.
Mr. Panos. I would only say that, as has been said, fully
funding the Highway Trust Fund I think is important. The idea
of funding and process improvement together, links together, I
think is important. But you know, the Federal financing of
transportation infrastructure is complex, and I wouldn't
purport to tell you how to do it, but certainly it is going to
be very important that we figure this out, because it is going
to take both money and process improvements as we go forward.
Senator Carper. Good.
Later today we will have some folks in. There is a
Northeast Corridor Commission that is going to be in town, and
they are going to spend some time with us later today and talk
about the really serious need for infrastructure improvement up
and down the northeast corridor. I think our freight railroads,
for the most part, are in pretty good shape; you know, they
largely fund themselves through their businesses.
But I think it is under the FAST Act we created an
initiative that calls us to look really closely at an idea that
I call vehicle miles traveled. The North American car of the
year, Chevrolet Bolt, gets 240 miles per charge. Yesterday I
drove a vehicle, a Honda. They have the Honda Prius. Not the
Honda Prius--oh, gosh, several models of Honda, and they have a
new model they are just introducing called the Clarity, like
the Accord and all that stuff, but it is a new model, and they
come in battery, just battery; they come in fuel cells, just
fuel cells, and they get something like 350 miles on a charge,
fuel cells on hydrogen. And those vehicles, General Motors Bolt
will not use any gas or diesel. The car I drove yesterday, fuel
cells, Honda, won't use any gas or diesel. And we need to come
up with ways more and more vehicles like that enter the roads
to make sure that they are going to pay for these roads,
highways, bridges.
So vehicle miles traveled can be a good way to do that. If
we are smart enough in this country to develop vehicles that
can drive without a drive from coast to coast, we ought to be
able to figure out how to do it. The smart way would be vehicle
miles traveled irrespective of privacy.
Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much for your
comments.
I want to thank all of you for being here today and for
your testimony.
The hearing record, of course, is going to be open for the
next 2 weeks because other members may put in written
questions. I know you had suggested that you had a written
question or two.
I want to thank all of you for your time, your testimony.
The hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m. the Committee was adjourned.]
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