[Joint House and Senate Hearing, 115 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
115th Congress Printed for the use of the
1st Session Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
________________________________________________________________________
Muslims and Minorities in the
Military: Changing Demographics in
the OSCE Region and Implications
for Europe's Security Sector
JULY 26, 2017
Briefing of the
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
Washington: 2017
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
234 Ford House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
202-225-1901
[email protected]
http://www.csce.gov
@HelsinkiComm
Legislative Branch Commissioners
HOUSE SENATE
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey ROGER WICKER, Mississippi,
Co-Chairman Chairman
ALCEE L. HASTINGS, Florida BENJAMIN L. CARDIN. Maryland
ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas CORY GARDNER, Colorado
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee MARCO RUBIO, Florida
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas TOM UDALL, New Mexico
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
Executive Branch Commissioners
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE
[II]
ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
The Helsinki process, formally titled the Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe, traces its origin to the signing of the
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website of the OSCE is: .
ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
The Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, also known as
the Helsinki Commission, is a U.S. Government agency created in 1976 to
monitor and encourage compliance by the participating States with their
OSCE commitments, with a particular emphasis on human rights.
The Commission consists of nine members from the United States
Senate, nine members from the House of Representatives, and one member
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In fulfilling its mandate, the Commission gathers and disseminates
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Commission have regular contact with parliamentarians, government
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private individuals from participating States. The website of the
Commission is: .
[III]
Muslims and Minorities in the
Military: Changing Demographics in
the OSCE Region and Implications
for Europe's Security Sector
_____________
July 26, 2017
Page
PARTICIPANTS
Hon. Gwen Moore, Commissioner, Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe ... 9
Dr. Mischa E. Thompson, Policy Advisor, Commission on Security and Cooperation in
Europe ........................................................................... 1
Rozemina Abbasi (United Kingdom), Assistant Head, Armed Forces Targets, Ministry of
Defense .......................................................................... 2
Dr. Elyamine Settoul (France), Professor, Institute for Strategic Research at the
Military College, French Ministry of Defense ...................................... 4
Dominik Wullers (Germany), Economist, Spokesman, Federal Ministry of Defense
Equipment, and Vice President of Deutscher.Soldat ................................ 4
Samira Rafaela (Netherlands), Organizational Strategy Advisor, Dutch National Police. 5
[IV]
Muslims and Minorities in the
Military: Changing Demographics in
the OSCE Region and Implications
for Europe's Security Sector
----------
July 26, 2017
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
Washington, DC
The briefing was held at 11:01 a.m. in room 562, Dirksen Senate
Office Building, Washington, DC, Dr. Mischa E. Thompson, Policy
Advisor, Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, moderating.
Commissioner present: Hon. Gwen Moore, Commissioner, Commission on
Security and Cooperation in Europe.
Panelists present: Dr. Mischa E. Thompson, Policy Advisor,
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe; Rozemina Abbasi
(United Kingdom), Assistant Head, Armed Forces Targets, Ministry of
Defense; Dr. Elyamine Settoul (France), Professor, Institute for
Strategic Research at the Military College, French Ministry of Defense;
Dominik Wullers (Germany), Economist, Spokesman, Federal Ministry of
Defense Equipment, and Vice President of Deutscher.Soldat; and Samira
Rafaela (Netherlands), Organizational Strategy Advisor, Dutch National
Police.
Dr. Thompson. Good morning. My name is Dr. Mischa Thompson, and
welcome to ``Muslims and Minorities in the Military,'' a briefing on
``Changing Demographics in the OSCE Region and Implications for
Europe's Security Sector'' hosted by the U.S. Commission on Security
and Cooperation in Europe, also known as the Helsinki Commission. We
are broadcasting this briefing via Facebook.com/Helsinki, and I hope
that you will also participate via social media.
For those of you who do not know, the Helsinki Commission is an
independent U.S. Government agency focused on human rights, economics,
and security in the 57 North American and European countries that make
up the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, or the
OSCE. The Commission is chaired by Senator Roger Wicker, bicameral and
bipartisan, and comprised of 21 members of Congress and the executive
branch, including the U.S. State Department, and is housed in the U.S.
Congress.
The OSCE has had a focus on diverse populations, from Roma and
Jewish populations to national minorities and migrants in Europe and
the United States, since its inception. This focus has increased in
recent years with the demographic shift that is taking place on both
sides of the Atlantic.
The U.S. Census Bureau predicts that racial and ethnic groups will
comprise close to 60 percent of the U.S. population by 2060, and that
by 2031 the majority of the U.S. workforce will be people of color--so,
for example, Asian, Latino, and migrant populations--which will also
account for much of the U.S. population growth in years to come.
In Europe, demographers predict that aging and waning birthrates
will lead to a decline in workers that will result in increased
immigration, but also an increased focus on historically underutilized
talent from Roma, Afro descent, Asian, and other existing diverse
populations of citizens, as well as migrants that in many countries in
the European Union are make 5 [percent] to 8 percent of the population.
Today, we will discuss what these demographic shifts mean for
security forces on both sides of the Atlantic and the long-term
stability of the transatlantic partnership.
I am pleased to be joined today by four members of a European
delegation in Washington, D.C. to attend a German Marshall Fund
conference being convened by senior fellow Lora Berg entitled ``Mission
Critical: Inclusive Leadership for the Security Sector.'' You can find
the bios of today's panelists in the blue folders and online. And given
that we will only have an hour, I will begin by asking the panelists a
few questions, after which we will have time for questions and
discussion with the audience.
I would like to welcome Rozemina Abbasi of the Ministry of Defence
from the United Kingdom; Dr. Elyamine Settoul from the French Ministry
of Defense; Mr. Dominik Wullers of the German Ministry of Defense; and
Ms. Samira Rafaela of the Netherlands Dutch National Police, also a
member of the Caribbean Network of the Dutch police.
And so, with that, I will actually turn to Ms. Rozemina Abbasi and
ask if you can just start by telling us a little bit about what the
demographic makeup looks like in the United Kingdom, and specifically
how this relates to your role in the Ministry of Defence.
Ms. Abbasi. Thank you.
The U.K. population is diverse. At the moment, 80 percent of the
U.K. population is white and 20 percent is of BAME background. We're
predicting that, in the next 30 years, that 25 percent of the working-
age population will come from a BAME background. Currently, 31 percent
of the U.K. primary-school pupils are of a BAME background. When I say
``BAME,'' I mean people of color, so ``BAME'' stands for Black, Asian,
and minority ethnic. I appreciate there's some different acronyms
between Britain and America.
With that in mind and the changing demographics, the U.K.
Government has been pretty forward looking, and we've started to look
at what this will mean and what we need to start doing now to ensure
that we are attracting the right people going forward. I work for the
Ministry of Defence. And with the Ministry of Defence, with the armed
forces, currently they are not representative of the society that we
aim to serve. The current sort of numbers are that we only have around
7 percent of the armed forces recruits from a BAME background. And
female, as well, is around about 11 percent. So the numbers are quite
low.
What we have done is place targets upon ourselves to increase the
number of recruits that are coming in to be from a BAME background, and
also to increase the female representation, by 2020. And to do that,
we've designed a program of activity to engage both externally and
internally. And the sort of motivation behind this is that we want to
be attracting the best from our society to be joining us, and we also
want the armed forces going forward to be relevant to the society that
we aim to serve. With the demographics changing, we want to be able to
be relevant to the future generations, and also we want to be able to
have the best. The white population that we currently recruit from is
diminishing, and going forward the numbers will be even lower.
I'm not sure how much more time I have or what more information I
should be going into, or--I can talk continuously about all the
activities we are doing, but----
Dr. Thompson. Yes, I was going to say if you actually can talk a
little bit about some of the activities that you're working on.
Ms. Abbasi. So what we've done is designed a program of activities,
and in the first year we conducted extensive research looking into the
U.K. population that was made up of Asian, Black, Chinese. And what we
wanted to understand was what the different communities thought about
the armed forces, and whether they wanted to become members of the
armed forces, and what the barriers were. And we're still sort of
working through a lot of that research. It was quite extensive. And in
it there were some sort of humble truths that we had to face. You know,
certain factions of society didn't find us as an attractive proposition
as an employer.
And then, there's also been other things that we've been looking
at. Also looking internally, understanding where there may be bias or
prejudice in our recruitment process. What are we doing with the
current sort of population that is from a BAME background? You know, is
retention and progression fair? Do we have positive role models at a
senior level?
So it's been a bit of a raw experience looking at where we are at
at the moment and where we wish to get to going forward.
One of the most important things about this program of activity is
that, firstly, we've got the Prime Minister behind us. She herself is
supportive of the targets. Secondly, we've got our head Secretary of
State who is, again, hands on in regards to this program activity. He
actually has quarterly meetings with the army, all three of the
chiefs--the army chief, the Royal Air Force Chief [RAF], and the navy
chief--on a regular basis, to understand what work they are doing, and
then also what progress we're making, you know, on a quarterly basis.
Our senior leaders are behind the change program, and that in itself
speaks volumes when you're trying to put through a program of change
that will probably be uncomfortable for some within the armed forces.
We have a 190,000-strong workforce, and it is predominantly male
and it's also predominantly white. And all of a sudden, when you're
asking a community which is very strong, which has strong values, and
sees themselves as a family, to start to introduce new people in--
whether female or people from a BAME background--there will be
resistance at certain levels. And for our program to be effective, we
really need that buy-in at every level and for people to be supportive.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you.
And, Dr. Settoul, I'm hoping that we can actually briefly turn to
France, in part because you wrote in your 2014 paper--``You're in the
French Army Now''--that the French military structure has included a
large number of Muslims ever since the period of colonial conquest of
North Africa in the 19th century. And so what that suggests is that
there's been a longer history of Muslim and minority participation that
I'm hoping that you can tell us a little bit about, and then we can
come up to the future and talk about what's happening currently now in
France.
Dr. Settoul. Yes, as you said, the Muslim presence in the French
armies has roots in the French colonial history. And I think it's a big
difference with many other countries, many European countries. The
first French Muslim regiment was created in Algeria in 1840, so it's
very ancient. Those regiments have fought with France throughout the
19th century and the 20th century, sometimes in decisive battles like
Monte Cassino during the Second World War. So we have a strong
tradition with the Muslim fighters.
They brought a youth contribution for the liberation of France
during the Second World War. Even today, if you look at some regiments,
like the 1st Regiment de Tirailleurs d'Epinal, you can see on their
berets an Islamic crescent. So it's original, and it shows the
importance of this Muslim legacy in the French Army. And I would add
that it plays a positive role to attract the young French Muslims today
for recruitment.
Dr. Thompson. And can you talk a little bit about what the current
population of Muslims and other diverse populations in France is, and
what types of measures are currently taking place to recruit?
Dr. Settoul. Yes. France is characterized by a high level of
diversity. It has the largest Muslim, Buddhist, and Jewish community in
Europe. But at the same time, ethnic statistics are forbidden in the
French context. But the military institution has some information about
the religious backgrounds of the soldiers, especially because we have
to manage some things. For example, during the war operations, if a
soldier dies, we have to know how to manage the body and to respect
their faith.
We know, for example, that around 10 percent of the French soldiers
are Muslims. So it's an opportune number if we compare it to what that
represents in the society as a whole. Between 5 [percent] and 8 percent
of the French are Muslims, and they represent 10 percent of the
military institutions. So we can say that there is an over-
representation of Muslims in the military institution. And I think it
is linked to the fact that the military institution is very attractive,
because it is perceived as a meritocratic field. And we could draw a
parallel between the experience of the Black minorities in the U.S.
armies and what the French Muslims experience today. They find in these
institutions the meritocratic fields. They recruit you whatever your
origin, your color skin or your address. And this is what I have seen
during my Ph.D. about the soldiers who share an immigrant background.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you.
Now, Mr. Wullers, you actually founded in Germany an organization
called Deutscher.Soldat, and I was hoping you could tell us a little
bit about why it is that you founded that organization.
Mr. Wullers. Yes. Good morning, good morning. So thank you very
much for inviting me here today.
And, first, I have to send my regards to Ibiza, where my president
is.
Actually, me personally, I'm an economist. I was an officer for 13
years in the German armed forces. So this is more or less something
that I do in my spare time. And it came to me in 2010, when I returned
from studies abroad here in the United States. My branch head at the
time invited me to his office and said that there was a discussion
raging at the time in Germany about diversity and integration, and
whether integration as a whole, diversity as a whole, and especially
migration from Turkey and Arab countries was a failure, and an entire
failure and a problem for our society. So we founded this initiative,
Deutscher.Soldat, to use the German soldier of different ethnic or
cultural descent as a symbol in this discussion to show that
integration, from our point of view, was indeed a success--that there
were problems that had to be talked about, but in general integration
and migration is a success and a chance for Germany.
So that's the one thing. And over time, being German soldiers of
color, obviously we were talked to about the subject of racism in the
German armed forces or the subject of diversity, and that's how we got
to this subject.
Dr. Thompson. OK. And can you talk just a little bit about the
image that we see on the Facebook page when you pull up
Deutscher.Soldat?
Mr. Wullers. Yes. So, Germany's probably not the first country to
come to mind when you think about diversity. Given our history, when
you talk to countrymen in Germany and you give them the image of
Deutscher.Soldat, which is a German soldier, most will think of a
blond, blue-eyed, Nazi probably still, a very pacifist country still,
and strong resentments against the army and personnel of the armed
forces. So when we use that, we actively used this connotation that is
still active with many, many Germans. So when you type in
Deutscher.Soldat, many would expect a very far right-wing organization,
and what you see then is, well--soldiers of color and our slogan,
``Typically German,'' or ``Typisch Deutsch.'' Then we just wanted to
highlight that today with about 20 percent of our population having
some kind of migration background, as we say, and among the children
every third. We are indeed a diverse society today, and it's our job
and our generation's job to, well, implement that politically.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you.
Now, Ms. Rafaela, you are joining us here from the Netherlands, a
country that has traditionally been known for being, I would say, both
diverse and tolerant. And I was hoping that you might be able to share
with us what diversity looks like in the Netherlands. And you mentioned
earlier that you were part of a Caribbean Network that's within the
Dutch police, and if you could also tell us a little bit about what
that network is and why that was actually started.
Ms. Rafaela. Well, thank you very much for having me here. It's my
first time in Washington, so I'm really excited.
Diversity in the Netherlands--well, I think it's definitely
comparable to how diversity looks like also in the U.K. We have
definitely a large population with especially a multicultural
background, and that makes government as a whole in the Netherlands,
but especially also in the security sector and in the education sector,
makes them think, OK, how do we actually need to change within our
organization.
Because that means--take, for example, our capital city, Amsterdam.
At least 50 percent of the citizens have a multicultural background. So
that means that if you look, for example, at government or at safety,
that we also need to think of strategies, of methods to actually
diversify our own organization.
And one of the things to do so is, for example, diversity networks
within organizations like, for example, the Caribbean Network of the
police. That is mainly responsible for actually bonding and bridging
between communities with citizens with an African-Caribbean background,
to bring in the expertise of the communities, to make sure that the
organization knows their issues, knows their needs, participates in
public events, makes sure that you are visible and that you can
actually affect also the communities. But also to create a safe climate
inside the organization for multicultural colleagues, so that they can
feel safe in the first place, and the second place to facilitate them
in bringing their expertise on what they know on their community.
That's what, for example, the Caribbean Network does for the
organization.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you.
And before we go to the audience, I did want to talk a little bit
about the political climate that we've been seeing across Europe, as
well as in the United States, and what that has meant for some of the
work that has focused on diverse populations in Europe.
Ms. Rafaela, since we've already been speaking with you and I know
from your bio that you've had a strong background in politics--in part
actually having a portfolio where you focused on diversity--I was
wondering if you could talk a little bit about what the conversation
has politically been around diversity in the Netherlands, and if at all
how this has impacted your work in the security sector.
Ms. Rafaela. Yes, well, especially it focuses on the emancipation
and the participation of citizens with multicultural backgrounds, but
especially also discrimination, exclusion in the workforce, but also
LGBT-related issues, too--so LGBTs with a multicultural background, for
example, women's participation. And I think what I try to do myself, at
least in my own political party, is--what I've seen is that it is
extremely important that people are being heard--that's a fundamental
right--and to make sure that politics, but also more than politics,
understand these specific issues.
It is extremely important to organize the events and the meetings
on these specific issues, where you get the storytellers together,
where you get the influencers together, but also sometimes the--
[inaudible]--together so that they just feel and understand what the
issues are of specific target groups in our society. That's basically a
success formula which I use myself to inform my political party,
political colleagues on specific issues.
Dr. Thompson. And, Dr. Settoul, I was hoping that you could talk a
little bit about what the political climate has been like in France,
and what type of impact that that's had on the security sector as well.
Dr. Settoul. As you mentioned, the topic of Islam is very sensitive
in France--it's of course linked to the terrorist attacks, the recent
terrorist attacks, but it's deeper than those last attacks. During the
last decade, we have also had a lot of debate about Islam, about the
minarets, about the halal--so Islam is a topic, a very sensitive topic.
I think that the organization of Islam within the army is much more
peaceful than in the rest of the society. And we could make a link
between these good situations and the creation of a Muslim chaplaincy,
because France has created its first Muslim military chaplaincy in
2006, and it has improved a lot the management of the diversity, the
management of Muslims within the military bases. Today, the Muslim
soldiers can respect all their needs. You can be a French Muslim in the
military easily, that's what I want to say.
We have about almost 40 Muslim chaplaincies. I think we have the
greatest Muslim chaplaincy in the Western countries, U.S. included. In
the U.K., you have just one, I think. In the U.K., you just have one
Muslim chaplaincy.
Ms. Abbasi. We have one, yes.
Dr. Settoul. Yes. And the Germans are thinking about to launch.
Mr. Wullers. [Off mic.]
Dr. Settoul. Yes. But you are thinking about it, and--I know; I
have some contacts in Germany. So, yes, France seems to be well ahead
in comparison to other countries. But we have also many issues
regarding discrimination, the lack of diversity in the high ranks of
military institutions, so we have to be careful, to pay attention to
those questions.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you.
With that, we are at the halfway mark, and I did want to take some
time to open up the panel to questions from the audience. Yes, we a
have a question in the front, and we have a microphone that will be
brought to you.
Questioner. Thank you. My name is Alex Tiersky. I also work for the
Helsinki Commission. I'm the political/military affairs advisor there.
Thank you very much for your presentations. I have questions for
Ms. Abbasi and Dr. Settoul.
Ms. Abbasi, it's wonderful to hear that the Ministry of Defense in
particular has instituted targets, and that those targets have the
support of senior leadership. I think that's absolutely crucial. I'm
curious to know what incentives there are to meet those targets, as
well as any kinds of penalties for not meeting them in a certain time
frame. I'm curious whether there are programs to reach potential
candidates for service in the security sector before that moment of
their choice of whether or not to join, or whether they apply and are
accepted or not. And since you mentioned the extensive demographic
research that you conducted, I'd be very curious to hear what
alternatives these target populations you're looking for are choosing
instead of service in the security sector.
Dr. Settoul, if I could ask you as well, I was fascinated to hear
your presentation on the huge and very important contribution of
Muslims throughout recent French history or longer French history,
including the liberation of France in the Second World War. Could you
speak to how well that contribution is understood by French society at
large, whether there are any efforts to explain that contribution to
society at large, including by having, whether it's Muslims or
minorities, in key public-facing roles in the armed forces?
Thank you.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you.
Ms. Abbasi?
Ms. Abbasi. Thank you for your questions. In regard to the
recruitment targets, the recruitment targets were actually placed upon
the department by the Prime Minister. So, in a sense, the boss has told
you to do something, and I guess you will have to do it. And if you
don't I'm not quite sure what the penalty will be, but I don't think
the Prime Minister will take kindly to us not achieving the targets.
But in all fairness, the recruitment targets are very tough on us.
It's to do with, generally, the recruiting environment and society's
general desire to join the armed forces. And they are challenging, but
we are working very hard to do it.
In regards to the incentive to meet them, we at every senior level,
we appreciate that the targets are important for us. We want to recruit
the best, regardless of what their ethnic makeup would be. And we
recognize that, going forward, we need to be able to recruit from a
greater pool if we want to keep the inflow of the right type of people
we need to make ourselves more attractive to a wider section of
society.
What are we doing to ensure that people join at various stages?
We're doing outreach activities. In the U.K., our armed forces are
split between the RAF, the Navy, and the Army, and each of the services
have their own recruitment processes and outreach. And also, each of
the services also have different public perceptions. So, interestingly,
the RAF is viewed very positively by the general population, especially
the BAME, whereas the army tends to be viewed more negatively--just
because when you're associating which of the service reflects more of
the military, it's the army, where the RAF always is seen as more of--I
think it's just viewed more positively because they're not viewed as
close combat.
And what we're doing is--depending on the service--we're doing
outreach activities with schoolchildren so that they start thinking
about it early. Our research has shown that if you are looking for
future recruits, someone has to start thinking about joining at the age
of 13. That's the age that we need to start letting our future recruits
know that the armed forces is a potential option.
And where are our competitors? Actually, everyone is our competitor
at the moment in the U.K. All the top four big consultancy firms have
placed upon themselves recruitment targets from BAME backgrounds. You
know, the National Health Service, law firms, everyone is aware of what
the demographic changes are, and everybody is also aware of the
benefits that diversity brings, especially diversity of thought, and
competition is pretty fierce. And we also, within the military,
appreciate that as well, and that's why we're investing heavily in a
program to ensure that we can recruit the best going forward.
Dr. Settoul. OK. Thank you for your question.
To be honest, most of the French ignore this rate I gave you about
this number of 10 percent of French Muslim soldiers, I think firstly
because it's not in our culture to mention the religious
characteristics of the individuals, religious and ethnic. As I told
you, we don't have any kind of ethnic statistic in France. It's
deeply--[inaudible]--in our culture. And secondly, because
unfortunately Muslims have a negative image in the media, and for many
French it reminds them of the problem of the banlieue, what you call
the suburbs [inner city]. But in France, in French, the French word has
a negative connotation. ``Banlieue,'' it's mainly the problems and
discrimination and so on and so on.
But through my research and my studies, I try to highlight this
phenomenon of overrepresentation of Muslims. And it's a way for me to
deconstruct the idea of the clash of civilizations, which has become
very important in the minds of the French population and I would say
the European one.
Dr. Thompson. OK, thank you.
Do we have any other questions from the audience at this time? OK.
Then Dr. Settoul, can you talk a little bit about how your research was
actually received?
Dr. Settoul. It was not easy because in France, you know, we don't
have any kind of ethnic statistics. And when I did my Ph.D. during 2005
and 2010, I carried out 50 interviews. I made six internships in the
French suburbs, in the centers of military recruitment in Lyon,
Marseille and Saint-Denis, in the suburb of Paris. And it was not easy
because some of the officials I've met, they told me, why do you want
to focus on the ethnicity of our soldiers? Here in France we don't
recognize any kind of ethnic statistics and any--so I try to explain to
them that it's important to understand the social trajectories, to
understand the experiences within the regiments, because, of course,
theoretically we don't recognize the ethnicity, but the soldiers in
their daily life can feel discrimination because of their color skin
and so on and so on. So I try to be very pedagogic and to explain the
interest of such a study to improve the management of the diversity
within the military institution.
Dr. Thompson. OK, thank you.
We've actually just been joined by Congresswoman Gwen Moore. Just
please let me know if you'd be interested in making any remarks at this
time or later.
Are there any additional questions from the audience at this point?
Yes.
Questioner. So, if I may, I have a question about, so President
Trump's tweet this morning, if you have any reaction or comments to
make about it. He just announced that transgender people won't be
allowed in the military anymore--what are your comments about that?
Thank you.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you very much for your question. Is there
anyone on the panel that would like to take this question at this time?
Mr. Wullers. Thank you, I heard about that this morning, too. And
just to make clear, I am the chief spokesman for the German Arms
Procurement Office, but I'm here in a private capacity, so whatever I
say is my personal opinion.
I personally think that being able to serve your country in a
military or other capacity is one of the greatest goods a society has
to offer. It's also a sign and a revelation, actually, to my mind to
see who a society invites to serve them. And so I think that the
limitations on who I would invite and who I would give the chance to
serve my country should be as low as possible, and to make them as
necessary as possible. For example, if you are in a combat squad, there
are certain limitations that working in a combat squad have. But I
would really want to make this case that you should really limit
yourself to these essential requirements. So, in the case of
transgender people or the transgender community in general, I
personally think I do not feel that it's the right thing to do to
exclude them from the honor to serve.
Ms. Moore. Thank you so much, and I am so sorry to be late for this
very important hearing.
I do know that last week the House of Representatives had an
amendment to the defense authorization bill that would have prevented
service of transgender folk and medical care for transgender folk in
the military, and that amendment was defeated in the House of
Representatives. So, very clearly, it was a bipartisan rejection of
this notion. And so I am not clear as to why this tweet came out this
morning, except to say that it was a day that ended in the letter Y.
But I do think that it just speaks volumes to the continued struggles
that we're having to have an integrated society, and a military is
often the most important place to reflect consensus and solidarity in a
society. So I do find it very disturbing.
Ms. Abbasi. The U.K. military fully supports people from all
backgrounds, and we have a positive contribution from the LGBT
community, and we have people serving who are from a transgender
background. They are soldiers and they do a wonderful job, so I don't
understand personally why we would put in place anything that
discriminates against anybody who wishes to serve for their country.
Ms. Rafaela. Yes, and I'd like to add to that. Take, for example,
the Dutch police. One of the most successful diversity networks of the
Dutch police, for example, is the LGBT network, and because we think
that we need to know what their needs are and what their issues are.
They bring in the expertise that we otherwise won't have. So, also for
the Dutch security sector, the LGBT community is an extremely important
community, and exclusion of the LGBT community is just not done.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you.
Do we have other questions from the audience at this point?
Questioner. All of you have talked about how you think that
transgenders should be allowed in the military. But what do you think
when a country like the United States, with a large percentage of the
population that doesn't agree with that? What do you think the United
States should do to either change their opinion or sort of push the
agenda of transgenders in the military?
Ms. Rafaela. Well, one of the most important things is that there
is commitment in the top, that there are senior and top leaders that
are actually saying--that are not like only saying that diversity is
important, but also practice diversity. So it would be really helpful
if--also for the recruitment and the selection methods, that they look
specifically for people with a LGBT background and get them into
leadership positions within the security sector.
And for example, my own organization is actually making space right
now for people in management with a diverse background, and also with
an LGBT background, to counter the issue that you are addressing here.
Mr. Wullers. Thank you very much for the question. That is
something that I myself have thought about a lot, because what is
behind the question is what I like to call the ``enough'' movement--
that is, essentially, I think all over Europe right now, as well as we
can see with all the election results, which is that there is a
fundamental backlash against topics such as diversity, LGBT. And many
people, especially conservative people, that feel like it's enough now,
hence we should stop creating more and more diversity-centered topics
and issues and policy.
And I personally don't have a perfect answer to that. But I think
what I've experienced in the army is that as soon as you get to know
people, all the political ideological struggles, they disappear,
basically. So if you are deployed to Afghanistan, you are in a unit,
and you are under fire, you do not care whether the man or the woman
next to you had a different sexuality prior, or is Muslim, or whatever.
You just care that his or her rifle is pointed in the same direction as
yours.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you.
Are there other questions from the audience?
I wanted to talk a little bit more with Ms. Rafaela. If you could
just talk to us a little bit more about the police, because a lot of
the conversation has really focused more on the military. If you could
talk a little bit about some of the actual concrete policies that you
all have implemented within the police within Dutch society.
Ms. Rafaela. Well, my personal opinion is that I think a great
method of the Dutch police is the use of community policing. And that
is not only like knowing your community, but also engaging in the
community, getting to know your citizens, investing in knowledge
concerning their backgrounds, their needs. And what I see, for example,
Dutch police officers doing is that they literally step into houses,
into cultural centers to meet with people. They participate in public
events. They make sure that they are visible. They are trying to
attract different groups, talk to them about their issues, talk about
working for the police, for example. So I think that is a great best
practice of what I see Dutch police officers doing.
And then the second thing is, again, the commitment at the top. We
have the top actually saying/stating that diversity is really
important. They really want to accelerate the motion, make the motion
happen. And that's a second thing that is, I believe, really
successful.
But still, there remains a challenge. And that remains a challenge
when it comes, for example, the legitimacy and trust in the police
organization within, for example, multicultural communities. That is
something that my organization is really investing in by saying that we
need to attract more diverse employers. And that also means that they
need to be in the top, so we need to make space. We need to think of
leadership programs. The diversity networks themselves that are already
participating in communities and trying to attract multicultural
people, but also people with, for example, LGBT backgrounds, you name
it, to come work for the police.
I'd say these are the three concrete examples now.
Ms. Moore. I want to revisit the question that you asked about the
majority of Americans not wanting transgender people to serve in the
military. The reason I didn't respond immediately, because I just
didn't accept that premise as being true. And so I've been up here
googling a little bit, and I have data that's probably dated, but I
don't think the majority of Americans do not want transgender people--I
don't--I'm sorry----
Questioner. Why does it seem that way?
Dr. Thompson. He said why does it seem that way, then?
Ms. Moore. It may seem that way, but polling data don't support the
conclusion that they don't want them to serve. I know there's a little
different mix on whether or not people want you to use the same
bathroom.
But I do think that when I think about Chuck Hagel, former United
States Senator, a Republican, had reached the conclusion that at some
point it's inevitable that transgender people are going to serve in the
military, the same as was the case with people with LGBT designation.
And I think that, as our--one of our guests here--and I'm sorry, I
can't see your name--that this is where leadership comes in. I think
that that's probably the most unfortunate thing about the President's
tweets this morning, is that it's not demonstrating the kind of
leadership that we need.
And, as Martin Luther King Jr. said, injustice anywhere is
injustice for us all. So the minute we start coming up with the people
that we would agree to exclude, next it'll be you--[laughs]--you know,
because somebody will disagree with handsome young men like you being
in the military.
But on the serious side, I think that when you started talking
about people who have the character and the willingness to serve their
country, to lay their lives on the line, I think it is very egregious
for us to put these kinds of false litmus tests in front of them. And
most Americans agree that it--most Americans, quite frankly, avoid
military service and go way out of their way not to do it. So we
shouldn't stand in the way of someone who's brave enough to do that.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you.
And Dr. Settoul wanted to address the question on police versus
military in terms of diversity efforts.
Dr. Settoul. Yes. Just to draw a parallel between the police and
the military institutions, during my Ph.D. research I have met many
young people who were attracted by a military career but not by a
police one, because this institution is offensing as a racist
institution. And to be honest, it's not totally wrong because,
according to the last surveys, we know that 60 percent of the members
of the French police have voted for Marine Le Pen, the extreme right
candidate. So this makes the military institution much more attractive
among these ethnic minorities.
Dr. Thompson. We have a question that came in from Facebook that
pretty much talks about the U.S. military being in the forefront of
advancing rights and equality in the United States. And the question
was asking for the panelists whether or not the military has actually
been the forbearer of advancing rights and equalities in Europe as
well. And I should say the Facebook question was in the context of this
tweet coming out this morning, referring specifically to transgender
individuals and the U.S. history of the military with African American
and other diverse populations being seen as somewhat of an equalizer.
So, with that, I think the question is whether or not the military has
been seen as a place where rights have been actually advanced in
Europe.
Thank you.
Ms. Abbasi. The U.K. military has a very clear policy on LGBT, and
we don't discriminate. I'm not quite sure if I can say, in fact, the
military are sort of at the leading front. I think in some areas the
military is slightly constitutional, and they have their own set of
rigid polices in place which take some time to overcome. But at the
moment we are very supportive of LGBT persons, and we have a number of
people who have gone through the process of gender change and are
serving. We've opened up our ground combat roles to females only
recently, and one of the first females to join was someone who has gone
through the transgender change process. So we're quite proud of the
diversity we have.
Are we at a stage where we can comfortably say we don't have to do
anything else? That's not true. We don't have senior role models from
various backgrounds. And I think there's a lot that we can do, and we
need to start thinking about retention and progression. Many times a
lot of our policies concentrate on people, bringing them in and keeping
them, I would say, at low ranks. That then doesn't really inspire/
motivate them to stay, and also doesn't create the positive environment
that we want to attract future candidates. So now I think a lot more
thought needs to go into what are we doing internally to ensure that we
have leaders right at the top that come from all types of backgrounds.
And it's not just LGBT. It's not just female. It's disabled people;
they can't serve in the military, but in other civilian posts. But
also, you know, social mobility is also very important. People need to
come from all sorts of various backgrounds.
Thank you.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you. And do we have any other closing remarks
from panelists as we--oh, sorry----
Ms. Moore. Well, I suppose just to be responsive to the Facebook
questioner, I hate to seem redundant, but again, the desegregation of
the United States military occurred almost--I mean to date in July of
1948. It was by executive order, so it was President Truman signing an
executive order because he didn't believe that legislation would make
it through Congress to desegregate the United States military. And that
initiative was taken before the country was really ready for it. After
the Holocaust and the horrific events surrounding the massacre and
murder of Jews, I think the American leadership started to examine its
own racism. And certainly just another reason why I think that this
morning's tweets were retrograde with where Americans want to present
and the leadership that we want to provide in the world.
Mr. Wullers. Yes, and just maybe from the German perspective
regarding that, since Germany is, I think, in contrast to the other
three European countries here, blessed with a very short colonization
period. So we were last and first to leave the table. And so Germany
did not have much migration from other countries until we invited guest
workers from Turkey and Greece and other countries. And I have to say,
yes, generally it has been a possibility for social mobility.
So, for example, if you look at the two campuses of the two federal
armed forces universities in Hamburg and Munich, you'd see about, I'd
say--not statistically proven but from my empirical observations--30
[percent] to maybe even 40 percent of cadets with some sort of
diversity background. But if you look at retention rates and like
career changes on who moves up, that's actually--those are actually
quite low numbers. So, yes, generally speaking, there's some
possibility for social mobility, and in that way the armed forces in
Germany do integrate in a large way. But there are still things that
leadership has to acknowledge and then to change, and that's, I think,
the strategic aspect.
Dr. Thompson. Thank you. Samira?
Ms. Rafaela. Yes, and also for the Netherlands I see definitely
possibilities and opportunities. But retention, that's an extremely
important one, and I think that also asks from our leaders that they
look differently at diversity, they look differently at talent. So,
employees--people with, for example, a diverse background--they bring
in specific expertise. And it's just not something they bring in, it's
an expertise, it's a competence. It's also needed that leaders look
differently in their organization at people with specific expertise and
specialism. And when it comes to retention, also, cultural changes are
really needed in your organization, and not only changes but really
cultural shifts.
So then I'm talking about mindset, attitude, the kind of
conversations we have coming from different perspectives in
conversation. There's no one size fits all. And that will make and
hopefully allow that people will stay in your organization and can
actually bring in their expertise, and that leaders can actually look
at it in terms of this as a competence; this is not just an employee
being diverse, but this is an employee with expertise and a specialty,
and we need him or her or whoever.
Ms. Abbasi. I just wanted to add one thing. I think what is really
important for any Diversity and Inclusion [D&I] program is to have the
support of the majority. One of the sort of obstacles or blockers is
that we can invest as much money as we want and we can put programs in
place, but if the majority are not behind the program and are not
acting in good faith, then it's really hard to embark upon these change
programs. So we can try to increase the number of females or BAME
personnel, but if the people within will give them a tough time or will
not give them the space to work and progress, that will make it very
difficult for them. And I think when we're looking at policies and also
looking at how to implement, we have to also think about the majority
and what we need to do to put them or have their buy in into the
process.
Dr. Thompson. I want to thank you all for sharing your experiences
from Europe on this very important issue. It is an issue that our
Helsinki commissioners have been working on for some years now. Close
to a decade ago, one of our commissioners actually helped to introduce
the Military Diversity in Leadership Commission to really look at, for
example, where the United States was particularly on this issue. It
continues to be something that we are working on.
To that point, our Commissioner Senator Ben Cardin recently
introduced in April the National Security Diversity and Inclusion
Workforce Act, which he a few days ago worked with his Republican
counterpart, Chairman Senator Corker, to have diversity provisions
included in the Senate authorization bill. And that was this year, and
last year. So I would say it's an issue that we continue to be seized
with in the United States as well.
The reasoning, of course, is I think what you heard from most of
the panelists here. As we are experiencing demographic change on both
sides of the Atlantic, it's something that we are seeing as being
crucial for future workforces--these workforces that will also be the
underpinning of our security forces on both sides of the Atlantic, and
part and parcel to the long-term stability of the transatlantic
relationship.
And so, with that, I would like to thank you all for being here
today. And, as we said, we were on social media, so if there are
follow-up questions we will also take time to review those as well.
Thank you very much. [Applause.]
[Whereupon, at 12:01 p.m., the briefing ended.]
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