    [House Hearing, 115 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                        THE TAXPAYER EXPERIENCE WITH THE
                            INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE

    =======================================================================

                                     HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                           SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT

                                     OF THE

                          COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS
                         U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                               DECEMBER 13, 2017

                                   __________

                              Serial No. 115-OS09

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on Ways and Means

     [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                   __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    33-658                  WASHINGTON : 2019

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS

                          KEVIN BRADY, Texas, Chairman

    SAM JOHNSON, Texas                   RICHARD E. NEAL, Massachusetts
    DEVIN NUNES, California              SANDER M. LEVIN, Michigan
    PATRICK J. TIBERI, Ohio              JOHN LEWIS, Georgia
    DAVID G. REICHERT, Washington        LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
    PETER J. ROSKAM, Illinois            MIKE THOMPSON, California
    VERN BUCHANAN, Florida               JOHN B. LARSON, Connecticut
    ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska               EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon
    LYNN JENKINS, Kansas                 RON KIND, Wisconsin
    ERIK PAULSEN, Minnesota              BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey
    KENNY MARCHANT, Texas                JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York
    DIANE BLACK, Tennessee               DANNY DAVIS, Illinois
    TOM REED, New York                   LINDA SANCHEZ, California
    MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania             BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
    JIM RENACCI, Ohio                    TERRI SEWELL, Alabama
    PAT MEEHAN, Pennsylvania             SUZAN DELBENE, Washington
    KRISTI NOEM, South Dakota            JUDY CHU, California
    GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina
    JASON SMITH, Missouri
    TOM RICE, South Carolina
    DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona
    JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana
    CARLOS CURBELO, Florida
    MIKE BISHOP, Michigan

                         David Stewart, Staff Director

                     Brandon Casey, Minority Chief Counsel

                                     ______

                           SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT

                        VERN BUCHANAN, Florida, Chairman

    DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona            JOHN LEWIS, Georgia
    JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana             JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York
    CARLOS CURBELO, Florida              SUZAN DELBENE, Washington
    MIKE BISHOP, Michigan                EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon
    PAT MEEHAN, Pennsylvania
    GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina

                               C O N T E N T S

                                   __________

                                                                       Page

    Advisory of December 13, 2017, announcing the hearing............     2

                                   WITNESSES

    Jennifer MacMillan, Enrolled Agent, Owner, Jennifer MacMillan,
      EA; Government Relations Chair, National Association of
      Enrolled Agents................................................     5
    Tameka E. Lester, Associate Director, Philip C. Cook Low-Income
      Taxpayer Clinic, Georgia State University College of Law.......    17
    Karina Ron, Director, Center for Financial Stability, United Way
      of Miami-Dade..................................................    28
    Lynnette Lee-Villanueva, Vice President, Tax-Aide, AARP
      Foundation.....................................................    34

                           SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD

    American Institute of Certified Public Accountants (AICPA).......    58
    Coalition for Effective and Efficient Tax Administration (CEETA).    65
    National Treasury Employees Union (NTEU).........................    70

                        THE TAXPAYER EXPERIENCE WITH THE
                            INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2017

                 U.S. House of Representatives,
                           Committee on Ways and Means,
                                     Subcommittee on Oversight,
                                                        Washington, DC.

        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in
    Room 1100, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Vern Buchanan
    [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
        [The advisory announcing the hearing follows:]

               ADVISORY FROM THE COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS

                           SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT

                                                    CONTACT: (202) 225-1721
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Wednesday, December 13, 2017
    OS-09

                     Chairman Buchanan Announces Hearing on

                        The Taxpayer Experience with the

                            Internal Revenue Service

        House Ways and Means Oversight Subcommittee Chairman Vern Buchanan
    (R-FL), announced today that the Subcommittee will hold a hearing
    entitled ``The Taxpayer Experience with the Internal Revenue Service.''
    The hearing will focus on understanding taxpayers' interactions with
    the Internal Revenue Service and soliciting feedback on how to improve
    the relationship between the agency and taxpayers. The hearing will
    take place on Wednesday, December 13, 2017, in room 1100 of the
    Longworth House Office Building, beginning at 10:00 a.m.

        In view of the limited time to hear witnesses, oral testimony at
    this hearing will be from invited witnesses only. However, any
    individual or organization may submit a written statement for
    consideration by the Committee and for inclusion in the printed record
    of the hearing.

    DETAILS FOR SUBMISSION OF WRITTEN COMMENTS:

        Please Note: Any person(s) and/or organization(s) wishing to submit
    written comments for the hearing record must follow the appropriate
    link on the hearing page of the Committee website and complete the
    informational forms. From the Committee homepage, http://
    waysandmeans.house.gov, select ``Hearings.'' Select the hearing for
    which you would like to make a submission, and click on the link
    entitled, ``Click here to provide a submission for the record.'' Once
    you have followed the online instructions, submit all requested
    information. ATTACH your submission as a Word document, in compliance
    with the formatting requirements listed below, by the close of business
    on Wednesday, December 27, 2017. For questions, or if you encounter
    technical problems, please call (202) 225-3625.

    FORMATTING REQUIREMENTS:

        The Committee relies on electronic submissions for printing the
    official hearing record. As always, submissions will be included in the
    record according to the discretion of the Committee. The Committee will
    not alter the content of your submission, but we reserve the right to
    format it according to our guidelines. Any submission provided to the
    Committee by a witness, any materials submitted for the printed record,
    and any written comments in response to a request for written comments
    must conform to the guidelines listed below. Any submission not in
    compliance with these guidelines will not be printed, but will be
    maintained in the Committee files for review and use by the Committee.

        All submissions and supplementary materials must be submitted in a
    single document via email, provided in Word format and must not exceed
    a total of 10 pages. Witnesses and submitters are advised that the
    Committee relies on electronic submissions for printing the official
    hearing record.

        All submissions must include a list of all clients, persons and/or
    organizations on whose behalf the witness appears. The name, company,
    address, telephone, and fax numbers of each witness must be included in
    the body of the email. Please exclude any personal identifiable
    information in the attached submission.

        Failure to follow the formatting requirements may result in the
    exclusion of a submission. All submissions for the record are final.

        The Committee seeks to make its facilities accessible to persons
    with disabilities. If you are in need of special accommodations, please
    call 202-225-1721 or 202-226-3411 TDD/TTY in advance of the event (four
    business days notice is requested). Questions with regard to special
    accommodation needs in general (including availability of Committee
    materials in alternative formats) may be directed to the Committee as
    noted above.

        Note: All Committee advisories and news releases are available at
        http://www.waysandmeans.house.gov/

        Chairman BUCHANAN. The Subcommittee will come to order.
        Welcome to the Ways and Means Oversight Subcommittee
    hearing on ``The Taxpayer Experience with the Internal Revenue
    Service.'' Today's hearing is an important part of our efforts
    to reform the Internal Revenue Service.
        I have said before, this bipartisan effort is not an
    attempt to discredit the IRS or cast the agency in a bad light.
    I understand there are many public servants that are doing an
    outstanding job and work at the IRS.
        I have also made it clear I believe there is always room
    for improvement--continuous improvement. That was my model in
    business for 30 years before I came here. It should be a
    priority for the IRS. And I am committed to working with
    Ranking Member Lewis, my colleagues in Congress, and the agency
    to achieve that.
        For some perspective, in fiscal year 2016 the IRS collected
    more than $3.3 trillion in taxes. That is money generated by
    millions of hard-working Americans. In order to collect those
    funds, the agency processed more than 244 million tax returns
    and supplemental documents. That number includes individual and
    business tax returns.
        Of the 150 million returns filed by individual taxpayers,
    more than half were filed by paid preparers. This means at
    least 50 percent of individual tax filers do not have direct
    contact with the IRS.
        With more and more taxpayers seeking help to comply with
    the complex tax laws, it is critical we hear from those of you
    who directly interact with taxpayers on a regular basis.
    Without this critical input, it is difficult to get a full
    understanding of how taxpayers are being treated.
        Improving the relationship between the IRS and taxpayers
    starts with ensuring that the taxpayer's rights are being
    respected. It is the duty of the IRS Commissioner to ensure
    that employees are familiar with that and act in accordance
    with the Taxpayer Bill of Rights. Key taxpayer rights include
    the right to be informed, the right to quality service, and the
    right to a fair and just tax system.
        The goal of our hearing today is to get a better
    understanding from you of how ordinary taxpayers interact with
    the IRS. Each of the witnesses represents an organization that
    helps thousands of taxpayers in their dealings with the IRS,
    whether by routine tax filing or through resolving tax
    controversy cases. I look forward to your testimony and your
    unique perspective with each of you.
        And now I yield to the distinguished Ranking Member from
    Georgia, Mr. Lewis, for his purpose of an opening statement.
        Mr. LEWIS. Good morning. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much
    for holding this hearing.
        I would like to thank you, each one of you, for being here
    today. I would like to thank our witnesses for being here
    today.
        Before we begin, I would like to take a moment to address
    the Republican tax cut bill. This bill would increase the
    national debt by $2.3 trillion, and it will cause 13 million
    Americans to lose their healthcare coverage. That is not right.
    That is not fair. That is not just. That is wrong.
        All taxpayers expect, demand, and deserve better, much
    better, than legislation which puts politics before the good of
    the people. For the sick, the elderly, and the disabled, this
    bill may mean life or death. For middle-class, working, and
    immigrant families, this bill would mean an increase in taxes.
    For students, this bill would mean it is more difficult to
    realize their dream of a good education.
        In particular, I am concerned about how this bill would
    impact the IRS and taxpayer services. We have not had a single
    hearing on the challenge of implementing this bill. We have not
    had a single hearing on the confusion this bill would create
    during the tax filing season which begins in a few short weeks.
        Since 2010, Congress cut the agency's budget by almost $1
    billion. I have said time and time again that you cannot get
    blood from a turnip and you cannot justify robbing poor Peter
    to pay billionaire Paul. It is clear that the IRS does not have
    enough funding, staff resources, or time to handle these
    significant changes in tax law.
        Throughout the year, this Subcommittee has done good work,
    and I appreciate all of the good work you have done, Mr.
    Chairman, necessary work, the people's work. Mr. Chairman, I
    hope that we can continue to find ways to work together and
    give this agency the tools, staff, and resources it needs to
    serve taxpayers.
        This morning, I look forward to learning more about the
    taxpayers' experience with the agency, the low-income taxpayer
    clinics, and the other IRS partners who provide free tax
    services to low-income and elderly taxpayers. Their insight
    should guide our work to make sure that taxpayers have more
    access to good quality in-person, online, and telephone
    services.
        In closing, I would like to thank each of the witnesses for
    being here today and for the good work you do to serve and
    support taxpayers. I look forward to your testimony.
        Again, Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding this hearing. I
    yield back.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. And thank you, Mr. Lewis.
        Without objection, other Members' opening statements will
    be made part of the record.
        Today's witness panel includes five experts. Jennifer
    MacMillan is an enrolled agent and owner of Jennifer MacMillan,
    EA, testifying on behalf of the National Association of
    Enrolled Agents.
        At this time, I would like to recognize the gentleman from
    Georgia to introduce his witness, the next witness.
        Mr. LEWIS. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        It is my honor to introduce Ms. Tameka Lester. Ms. Lester
    is the Associate Director of the Philip C. Cook Low-Income
    Taxpayer Clinic at Georgia State University College of Law
    located in my congressional district.
        Thank you, and welcome.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you, Mr. Lewis.
        Next, I would like to recognize the gentleman from Florida,
    Mr. Curbelo, to introduce the next witness.
        Mr. CURBELO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        And I am proud to introduce this morning Ms. Karina Ron,
    Director of the United Way Center for Financial Stability with
    United Way of Miami-Dade, an organization that all throughout
    the country, but especially in our community, makes such a big
    difference for so many people in need.
        So, Ms. Ron, I am very grateful that you are here today,
    and I look forward to hearing the entirety of your testimony.
    But, of course, you know I have a special interest in the VITA
    program, which you all are so active in. So thank you.
        And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. And thank you.
        Finally, we have with us Ms. Lee-Villanueva, Vice President
    of the Tax-Aide program operated by the AARP Foundation.
        The Subcommittee has received your written statements. They
    will all be made part of the formal hearing record. You have 5
    minutes to deliver your oral remarks.
        We will start with you, Ms. MacMillan.

        STATEMENT OF JENNIFER MACMILLAN, ENROLLED AGENT, OWNER,
     JENNIFER MACMILLAN, EA; GOVERNMENT RELATIONS CHAIR, NATIONAL
                     ASSOCIATION OF ENROLLED AGENTS

        Ms. MACMILLAN. Thank you, Chairman Buchanan and Ranking
    Member Lewis.
        I speak on behalf of the National Association of Enrolled
    Agents, which represents over 55,000 enrolled agents. EAs are
    tax experts licensed by the Treasury. We must pass a rigorous
    Treasury-administered exam and are subject to background checks
    as well as meeting ongoing continuing education and ethics
    requirements.
        The IRS, for better or worse, is the face of the Federal
    Government for most citizens. Increasingly, EAs, who assist
    taxpayers at every level of administrative dealings with the
    IRS, believe taxpayer service has in recent years deteriorated
    to an unacceptable level.
        Our written statement details our concerns with IRS
    taxpayer service. This morning, however, I will focus on three
    issues: the IRS focus on providing assistance on a one-size-
    fits-all basis, concerns regarding post-filing assistance, and
    bolstering taxpayer rights.
        IRS provides three taxpayer service channels--face-to-face
    contacts, telephone, and self-help on the IRS.gov website. All
    can be helpful, but each has its limitations.
        IRS serves over 5 million taxpayers annually at their
    Taxpayer Assistance Centers, or TACs. These face-to-face
    resources are vital, particularly for the most vulnerable
    members of our society. Yet, we note they are subject to
    limited availability, both in hours and training, and in
    location.
        These centers are helpful for basic tax questions, but the
    IRS refers taxpayers with more complicated issues to other
    channels or to paid preparers. While the latter may be good for
    enrolled agents, it is not necessarily good for taxpayers, and
    it illustrates the need for Congress to make policy
    determinations about what level of service is acceptable from
    the IRS.
        At the IRS call centers, levels of service have steadily
    declined since 2010, reaching 37 percent 2 years ago. At that
    time, wait times also increased dramatically.
        Last year, with additional resources, IRS significantly
    improved the level of customer service at these call centers.
    Notwithstanding this concrete improvement, it appears that
    additional funding will not be available in the fiscal year
    2018 budget. This will likely result in fewer taxpayers and
    practitioners receiving necessary services.
        Finally, taxpayers are increasingly solving pre-filing
    basic issues by visiting IRS.gov. The IRS website has recently
    been revamped, and we encourage the IRS to continue to work
    with the practitioner community and the public to improve the
    website. While IRS.gov drives down agency costs, not every
    taxpayer is well-equipped to use a self-help version.
        As daunting as filing can be for taxpayers, dealing with
    enforcement matters can quickly become overwhelming. Taxpayers
    have a limited number of choices when they disagree with a
    notice or have a valid explanation the IRS should consider.
    They can try to reach the IRS to resolve the issue, they can
    pay a tax professional to take the matter off of their hands,
    or they can pay an assessment that is more than they truly owe.
    We often see taxpayers give up after spending hours waiting on
    hold or having their calls dropped.
        Campus audits are a prime example of this predicament.
    While correspondence exams increase IRS efficiency, they
    typically increase taxpayer burden as well. Churning out
    computer-generated exams demands that taxpayers have the right
    to contest the proposed actions of the IRS. Communicating with
    a human at the IRS could often resolve these cases quickly and
    efficiently, but the IRS lacks the ability to hire and train
    sufficient personnel for these necessary contacts.
        To increase the quality of taxpayer service at the IRS,
    Congress should consider the following policy and legislative
    changes:
        Provide IRS with additional targeted resources, as detailed
    in our written testimony.
        Create and fund dedicated training.
        Increase the authority and set higher standards for field
    personnel.
        Provide collections personnel the authority and training to
    quickly resolve cases when they deviate slightly from the
    financial standards to facilitate payments from taxpayers.
        And re-evaluate national standards for collection
    information statements.
        We also recommend giving the Taxpayer Advocate Service
    authority to make adjustments and expand dispute resolution
    options to all taxpayers.
        For most taxpayers, filing a return is a daunting
    undertaking, so it is no wonder over half of filers use paid
    preparers. The vast majority of paid preparers are not subject
    to any standards or even background checks.
        While many unenrolled preparers are conscientious and
    knowledgeable, many are not. The IRS cannot require or enforce
    even minimal standards on these individuals, although taxpayers
    expect and deserve to be able to have confidence that the
    person preparing the return is competent to do so.
        Thank you, again, for allowing me to testify today, and I
    look forward to answering any questions you may have.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. MacMillan follows:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
        Ms. Lester, you are recognized.

    STATEMENT OF TAMEKA E. LESTER, ESQ., ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, PHILIP
     C. COOK LOW-INCOME TAXPAYER CLINIC, GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY
                             COLLEGE OF LAW

        Ms. LESTER. Chairman Buchanan, Ranking Member Lewis, and
    Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to
    testify and discuss IRS reform and the taxpayer experience.
        I want to spend the next few minutes talking about the low-
    income taxpayers we see at the Georgia State University Low-
    Income Taxpayer Clinic, how they interact with the Internal
    Revenue Service, and what low-income taxpayers need to
    effectively gain access to the Internal Revenue Service.
        Our clients come from all walks of life. They are members
    of different political parties, socioeconomic groups, and have
    different cultural backgrounds. Some have always struggled to
    make ends meet, while others have fallen on hard times after
    losing their job or the result of an injury or sickness.
        The theme, however, is that time and money are finite and
    limited resources. The VITA program provides low- to no-cost
    tax representation services, and refundable credits like the
    earned income tax credit make a tremendous difference for them
    in bridging the poverty gap.
        But what happens when the IRS has questions about their
    return or determines a taxpayer has gotten a refund that they
    are not entitled to? When it is time to work with the IRS, what
    are their options for communicating with the service?
        We must consider how we can better serve and provide
    greater accessibility to our taxpayers who are already
    struggling the most. Taxpayers can engage with the IRS via
    online and mail, by telephone, and at Taxpayer Assistance
    Centers.
        Examining all these channels is important because each
    taxpayer's situation is different. Some of our clients have
    Internet access and smartphones, but some of them don't. Some
    of our clients don't even have phones, and for those who do,
    they may have limited data plans. Taxpayer Assistance Centers
    are not in every city, and the ones that do exist are by
    appointment only.
        I have three recommendations that I believe will provide
    low-income taxpayers with greater accessibility to the IRS and
    allow the IRS to provide greater service for all taxpayers.
        First, our clients are often the subject of audits and
    collection activity. Both processes involve taxpayers sending
    in documentation, such as copies of their children's birth
    certificates, Social Security cards, school records, and their
    own personal information.
        Taxpayers provide this information or documentation
    primarily through mail and fax, which presents several issues
    with security and financial issues. Taxpayers should have the
    ability to send information to the IRS electronically through
    secured portals and accounts.
        Next, when low-income taxpayers get notices from the IRS,
    they need options of talking with a representative over the
    phone or in person, so funding must be increased to hire
    additional representatives. Wait times for phone reps should be
    decreased, each Taxpayer Assistance Center should have more
    than one person available to taxpayers to talk with them in
    person, and there needs to be more of these centers in
    underserved areas.
        The Taxpayer Assistance Centers should begin accepting
    walk-in taxpayers again because taxpayers who do not have
    phones and who have an immediate need should not be turned away
    from these centers simply because they do not have an
    appointment.
        In addition, LITCs are instrumental in helping taxpayers
    navigate the IRS and resolve their issues. While Congress has
    continued to increase the overall funding available to LITC
    programs, the statutory cap of $100,000 for any one
    organization to receive has not been changed since the program
    began in 1998.
        Many organizations, like Georgia State University, receive
    the statutory cap, but have the capacity and interest to serve
    more taxpayers. For the last 26 years our clinic has served the
    taxpayers of Georgia. At any given time, we are working with
    hundreds of taxpayers, but we can do more. Where an
    organization like Georgia State University has experienced
    helping taxpayers and successfully operating a clinic,
    additional funding can help to set additional locations to
    service more taxpayers.
        No one wants to have an issue with the IRS. And, in my
    experience, our clients really do have a desire to resolve
    their issues properly. However, they need our help in order to
    do that.
        By improving online technology, providing more
    representatives for taxpayers to speak with over the telephone
    and in person, and increasing the statutory cap for
    organizations who are operating LITCs, the service can increase
    accessibility of their agency and enhance the overall
    experience for all taxpayers.
        Chairman Buchanan, Ranking Member Lewis, and Members of the
    Subcommittee, this concludes my statement. Thank you for the
    opportunity to share my views, and I welcome your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Lester follows:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
        Ms. Ron, you are recognized.

        STATEMENT OF KARINA RON, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR FINANCIAL
                  STABILITY, UNITED WAY OF MIAMI-DADE

        Ms. RON. Good morning, Chairman Buchanan, Ranking Member
    Lewis, and Members of the Committee. Thank you so much for the
    opportunity to be here and to testify today. I will be mainly
    focusing on experiences through the VITA program.
        The United Way focuses on lasting solutions that go beyond
    charity because financially stable people are more likely to
    access quality healthcare, provide a good education for their
    children, and contribute to their local economies.
        A key component of success in building financial stability
    is ensuring that hard-working families secure and keep the tax
    credits they are eligible for through free high-quality tax
    preparation and filing services, particularly via the Volunteer
    Income Tax Assistance program, or VITA, as we know it.
        Volunteer preparers are certified by the IRS and are
    required to maintain the highest standards of ethical conduct
    and service. This certification and a very, very disciplined
    approach in service delivery have resulted in accuracy ratings
    among the highest of all tax returns filed. According to a 2016
    report, for example, the VITA program experienced a 94 percent
    accuracy rating for prepared returns, including returns with
    earned-income tax credits.
        VITA is a very successful public-private partnership
    generating a strong return on investment. With a modest Federal
    investment, matched in local communities, VITA sites prepared
    millions of returns, bringing back $1.9 billion to VITA clients
    in communities across the country.
        VITA helps hard-working Americans meet their tax
    obligations while claiming the full amount of any refunds for
    which they are eligible. Often clients qualify for the EITC and
    child tax credit, which are some of our Nation's most effective
    anti-poverty tools. Only those who work are eligible, and in
    2015 these critical pro-work tax credits lifted 9.8 million
    Americans out of poverty, including 5 million children.
        Fundamentally, VITA supports those who cannot afford
    professional tax services and need assistance to accurately
    complete their taxes. Even beyond tax filing, many programs
    leverage the touch point that VITA provides to offer integrated
    service delivery, like counseling and education, and to connect
    clients with programs that foster proper financial stewardship
    and even grow savings.
        The Miami-Dade VITA Coalition, for example, provides access
    to financial capability services that range from financial
    education and one-on-one financial coaching to incentivized
    savings programs and even onsite bank account openings in
    partnership with its local banking access coalition, known as
    Bank On Miami.
        Since its creation, the VITA program has been an incredibly
    successful public-private partnership throughout the country.
    The resources that the IRS provides through this matching grant
    are only a portion of what organizations use to operate VITA
    sites.
        While the tax returns are prepared by volunteers,
    sponsoring community organizations contribute significant
    resources to recruit and train the volunteers to IRS standards,
    supervise the volunteers to ensure accuracy, provide office
    space and computers for electronic filing, and conduct outreach
    to community members.
        Currently, 380 United Ways fund, operate, or support VITA
    programs, contributing financial resources, personnel, and in-
    kind donations. As a network, the United Way invests $17.4
    million in VITA and other filing assistance programs. Millions
    more are invested across the country from other nonprofits and
    community service agencies, though these resources are
    stretched very tight and the reality is that communities often
    lack the resources to meet demand.
        And demand for VITA services only continues to grow. Given
    the significant return on investment and the successful
    partnership, we recommend a boost in funding for this program
    and for the program to be permanently authorized as called for
    in the bipartisan VITA Permanence Act, sponsored by
    Representatives Curbelo and Davis.
        Thank you, once again, for the opportunity. It is a
    pleasure to be here.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Ron follows:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
        Ms. Lee-Villanueva, you are recognized.

                 STATEMENT OF LYNNETTE LEE-VILLANUEVA,
               VICE PRESIDENT, TAX-AIDE, AARP FOUNDATION

        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. Thank you, Chairman Buchanan and
    Ranking Member Lewis and Members of the Oversight Subcommittee,
    for the invitation to testify today on ``The Taxpayer
    Experience with the Internal Revenue Service.'' I am Lynnette
    Lee-Villanueva, Vice President for AARP Foundation Tax-Aide. We
    appreciate the opportunity to share with you information about
    the program and our service to the American taxpayer.
        AARP Foundation is the Nation's largest volunteer-run tax
    assistance and preparation program administered in conjunction
    with the Internal Revenue Service. It started in 1968 with just
    four volunteers at one site. Tax-Aide relies on volunteers who
    make a difference in their communities by assisting many older,
    lower-income taxpayers who might otherwise miss out on
    important credits and deductions.
        Today, as we approach our 50th anniversary, nearly 35,000
    volunteers in all 50 States and the District of Columbia serve
    in approximately 5,000 Tax-Aide sites from February 1 to mid-
    April.
        In 2017, the AARP Foundation volunteers helped 2.5 million
    people file their Federal and State tax returns, including 1.5
    million Federal returns. In 2017, Tax-Aide clients, who have an
    average adjusted gross income of around $27,000, received $1.3
    billion in income tax refunds and another $222 million in
    earned-income tax credits.
        Not only is Tax-Aide the producer of about one-half of all
    volunteer prepared returns, but our research also indicates
    that the full Tax-Aide effort ranks fourth on the list of all
    tax-preparing entities, behind only the top three national paid
    preparer firms.
        AARP Foundation Tax-Aide is consistently well regarded by
    taxpayers. According to the 2017 AARP Foundation Tax-Aide
    Satisfaction Survey, 96 percent of respondents stated that they
    were very satisfied with our service. Among those who used Tax-
    Aide in previous years, 92 percent said they returned to the
    program because they are satisfied with the quality of service.
        AARP Foundation provides traditional face-to-face
    assistance service in neighborhood locations, such as
    libraries, malls, banks, community centers, and senior centers.
    Local partners donate their space rent free and sometimes help
    with administrative activities and program promotion. We work
    hard to reach out to those who are 50 or older, are homebound
    or disabled, or live in diverse communities in underserved and
    rural and urban areas.
        Tax-Aide sites are staffed by volunteers who serve as
    counselors who are trained to prepare and quality review tax
    returns and client facilitators who greet taxpayers and help
    them with their paperwork. Other volunteers include
    translators, technologists, administrators, and site leaders
    who provide equally important services.
        Volunteers, on average, spend about 6 years in the same
    volunteer position, and many of our volunteers have stayed with
    the program for more than 20 years. AARP Foundation Tax-Aide
    volunteers must train and pass an IRS certification test every
    year in order to serve taxpayers. The program's training
    commitment is about 3 to 5 days of in-person instruction every
    year.
        Tax-Aide seeks to assist taxpayers in ways that go beyond
    in-person assistance. A site locator tool helps taxpayers find
    locations of open Tax-Aide sites, and a call center allows
    individuals to contact us with questions.
        In addition, Tax-Aide provides online tax assistance, a
    web-based tool available year-round where taxpayers can find
    answers to frequently asked questions, as well as submit their
    own questions to receive answers about tax preparation.
        Tax-Aide also provides access to My Free Taxes, an option
    for taxpayers interested in filing their own returns
    electronically. In the off-season, taxpayers can contact Tax-
    Aide if they need help with an amended return or have questions
    about letters from the IRS.
        AARP Foundation Tax-Aide continues to strive to provide
    accurate returns and compassionate service to those who need it
    most by helping them preserve as much of their existing income
    as possible.
        We appreciate the Committee's efforts today to better
    understand the taxpayer's filing experience. We stand ready to
    assist and serve as a resource and partner for the Committee to
    improve the tax filing experience for everyone.
        Thank you for the time to testify.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Lee-Villanueva follows:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you for your excellent testimony.
        We will now proceed to the questions-and-answers session.
    In keeping with my past precedent, I will hold my questions
    until the end.
        I will now recognize the gentlelady from Indiana, Mrs.
    Walorski.
        Mrs. WALORSKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you, ladies, for being here and sharing your
    expertise. I am hoping you have an answer to my question. So
    stay tuned.
        The hearing is called the Taxpayer Experience, so I am
    going to let some of my constituents do the talking on their
    experience with the IRS.
        An 80-year-old farmer in my district received a letter
    saying that even though the IRS had found nothing wrong with
    their taxes, he and his wife had been selected for a random
    statistical audit. Even though the audit only took a few days,
    they had to spend $1,900 defending themselves and waste
    countless hours pulling together documents and traveling to the
    CPA's office to meet with the auditor. All the while, they felt
    the burden was on them to prove their innocence rather than the
    auditor proving guilt.
        Or take another family farm in my district that received an
    audit notification in September of 2012. The auditor sent by
    the IRS had no background in agriculture, didn't know the
    difference between a combine and a tractor. Things only got
    worse when their CPA offended the auditor. After that, they
    were at her mercy.
        She initially said they owed over $600,000. After spending
    over $120,000 and 4 years fighting that determination, the bill
    was reduced to $100,000. They could have kept on fighting but
    didn't want to keep spending more time and more money.
        These are only two stories of countless in my district, and
    I am assuming probably countless in your experience as well. I
    know there is plenty more where that came from.
        It is easy to add up the time and the money spent, but it
    is harder to quantify stress.
        Consider this. That 80-year-old farmer I just told you
    about had a heart condition and was told by doctors to avoid
    stress. How exactly can he do that while sitting across from an
    IRS auditor when he did nothing wrong.
        His family farm? The husband died during the audit, and the
    wife pleaded for a little extra time. She didn't even get a
    response.
        My first question for all of you is if any of you are
    familiar with this kind of statistical audit encountered in the
    first story. If so, what sort of costs are imposed on taxpayers
    subject to one?
        I see, Ms. MacMillan, you are shaking your head. I am
    guessing you have an answer.
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Yes, I have had a few clients go through
    these audits. And I know it is a matter of trying to balance
    fairness with getting the information the IRS needs.
        The National Research Project audits that were started
    maybe 12 years ago are these extremely extensive audits, and
    they use that information to develop better audit technique
    selection, or selection technique, for future audits.
        So I have been through a few of them and they are grueling.
    I don't know that the IRS can get that data elsewhere. But,
    yes, it is extremely expensive to go through one of those, and
    they often result in no change. But they do go through
    horrendous amounts of documentation, asking everything from,
    what about that piece of property you owned in Colorado? And
    they are like, we sold that 24 years ago.
        So they have gone to their third party or their outside
    sources to figure out what they should be looking at, but then
    the data is all over the place. It could be refined.
        Mrs. WALORSKI. I appreciate it.
        Ms. Lester, do you have some input?
        Ms. LESTER. Absolutely. We see this a lot, even with low-
    income taxpayers having to go through audits. The way we like
    to describe it to taxpayers is, when you fill out a tax return,
    you are on the honor system, unfortunately. And so when the IRS
    comes back, they want documentation to support the things that
    you have claimed on the return.
        And so that is why it is so important to encourage
    taxpayers to collect documentation as they go along and to
    retain that documentation for an extended period of time just
    in case they are subject to an audit in later years.
        We think that is why the work we do in the Low-Income
    Taxpayer Clinic is important because we are a training ground
    for students, law students, business students, accountants. So
    not only are we providing a valuable service to low-income
    taxpayers, but we are training students who will later be able
    to use their skills to provide affordable services for
    taxpayers who can actually afford to pay but don't want to pay
    astronomical fees in order to gain representation.
        Mrs. WALORSKI. I appreciate it.
        Do any of you have suggestions or recommendations based
    upon everything that you have seen on how to speed up this
    process, other than just educating the taxpayer to keep their
    documents? Is there anything else that you see in
    troubleshooting this that would actually speed up the process?
        Ms. LESTER. Yeah, I can add to that. One of the
    recommendations that we have made is to improve the ability for
    taxpayers to correspond with the IRS in an online fashion.
        Because right now what happens is taxpayers are pulling
    together all this documentation. Then they are having to mail
    it to the IRS. Then it has to be routed to the correct area.
    And so that leaves a lot of chance for things to happen with
    documentation, for it to be misrouted, for it to be lost.
        And so we think that with improved online capabilities,
    taxpayers can send the information directly to the Service and
    that can help speed up the process.
        Mrs. WALORSKI. Great. I appreciate it. Thank you, all of
    you, for your expertise.
        Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
        I now recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Ranking Member
    Lewis.
        Mr. LEWIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Chairman, you know, it is quite unusual. I have been on
    this Committee and the Subcommittee for some time. But I think
    this is my first time seeing an all-women panel. And I guess
    you can say that is major progress.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. It is the future.
        Mr. LEWIS. It is the future. I think you are right. I agree
    with you, Mr. Chairman.
        I have been saying to some that I think women are coming
    into their own, and I think the days and years to come will be
    the days and years of women. So thank you.
        Ms. Lester, thank you again for being here. You know, when
    writing tax laws too fast and sometimes trying to implement
    laws you make mistakes and there is confusion for taxpayers and
    the IRS.
        We have this new unbelievable tax legislation. Do you have
    anything, or do any of you have anything to say, of what could
    happen, or might not happen, or what time should you get the
    information to inform? Any of you could respond.
        Ms. Lester, do you want to go first?
        Ms. LESTER. Can you repeat your question?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Could you repeat the question? I am sorry.
        Mr. LEWIS. You know we have a big tax bill?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Yes, I am aware of that.
        Mr. LEWIS. Right? You have been reading about it?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Right. Yes.
        Ms. LESTER. Yes.
        Mr. LEWIS. Tax reform is coming down the pipe. So are you
    concerned that there will be some confusion on the part of the
    IRS or the taxpayers that you serve?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. I don't know that I am confused about the
    IRS. There will be costs of the IRS to implement major changes
    to the Tax Code. That is clear. I don't know if I can address
    anything else about it.
        I can tell you that middle-class taxpayers on the West
    Coast are at a different income level than middle-class
    taxpayers in the Midwest. So there is going to be a
    discrepancy.
        Mr. LEWIS. There are certain things that affect the
    taxpayers on the West Coast that may not affect those in the
    Southeast?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Well, obviously, on both coasts, the higher
    income--someone in the middle class on the West Coast would
    look like they were a wealthy person if they lived in the
    Midwest. So I am unsure of how it is going to shake out. But
    the explanation that this helps middle-class taxpayers may not
    help many of my clients.
        Mr. LEWIS. Ms. Lester, do you want to respond?
        Ms. LESTER. Sure. I have looked at some of the details of
    the tax bill, and one of the things that I know will probably
    concern low-income taxpayers is just understanding the
    differences and understanding the changes.
        It is already very difficult for taxpayers to understand
    their rights and responsibilities under the Internal Revenue
    Code, and it seems like, once they kind of begin to understand
    that, the laws change.
        And so some of the things that we are looking at that we
    think will affect them is the exemption amount going away for
    low-income taxpayers that have multiple children. This actually
    decreases their taxable income. And so with that going away,
    their taxable income could possibly increase. Although the
    standard deduction is increasing, that could still have an
    effect on them.
        But there are some things that could be helpful, such as
    the child tax credit being increased. So we see there being
    some benefits and also some disadvantages that would affect our
    taxpayers.
        Mr. LEWIS. Thank you.
        Ms. RON. If I could add, this is definitely not my area of
    expertise, but I would say that from the perspective of the
    population that we serve, there are definitely concerns with
    the tax reform coming up. Definitely, the United Way, I think,
    would be happy to follow up with more specifics on that. But I
    think, in general, there are concerns, particularly perhaps
    around impact on charitable giving.
        Mr. LEWIS. Thank you.
        Yes, ma'am.
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. I would just like to add that for the
    AARP Tax-Aide program, our commitment would be to make sure
    that our volunteers are up to speed on the current tax law and
    make sure that they are properly trained in order to serve our
    clients.
        Our clients that we see, the taxpayers with the lower
    income, and many of them in the older population, would still
    need assistance to be able to prepare their returns, and we
    would be there committed to provide that assistance.
        Mr. LEWIS. My time is running out, but if you could make it
    quick, and I will make it quick.
        What is your number one recommendation for Congress in
    terms of improving taxpayer service in your community?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. I think overall the lack of funding has been
    the biggest problem, and we encourage Congress to look to
    funding them better.
        Mr. LEWIS. Thank you.
        Ms. LESTER. I would have to agree. I think just making sure
    that taxpayers--I know there has been a big push to improve the
    online capabilities, and we think that is great. But just
    making sure that taxpayers have the ability to talk with actual
    representatives via phone and also at Taxpayer Assistance
    Centers is critical.
        Mr. LEWIS. Thank you.
        Ms. RON. I would also say that funding for programs that
    are so comprehensive, such as VITA, would be very important,
    especially in diverse communities. And to add to that, I would
    say also perhaps some assistance with data collection and
    reporting that might inform best practices on the ground.
        Mr. LEWIS. Thank you.
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. I would just say for the taxpayers that
    we see, we turn away taxpayers every year. So even though we
    serve 2.5 million, we still could serve many more. So expanding
    the services of the volunteer programs I think would be ideal
    in providing service, especially to the lower-income
    population.
        Mr. LEWIS. Thank you very much.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you, Mr. Lewis.
        I now recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Curbelo.
        Mr. CURBELO. Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding this
    hearing on such an important subject and allowing us to learn
    directly from those who interact the most with the IRS.
        One topic being discussed this morning that I am
    particularly proud to support is the Volunteer Income Tax
    Assistance program. VITA, or VITA as it is called in Miami
    sometimes, partners with the Federal Government and local
    community to provide tax preparation services for individuals
    with annual incomes below $54,000 and for those with limited
    proficiency in English.
        The VITA preparation services are of the highest quality,
    with an accuracy rating of 94 percent, even including returns
    claiming the complicated earned income tax credit. The
    certified preparers in the VITA program help traditionally
    underserved populations navigate the obstacles associated with
    filing a tax return and protect them from fraudulent preparers.
        These are some of the most vulnerable people in our
    communities, Mr. Chairman. And these are people who want to
    comply, who want to follow the law, who want to do the right
    thing, which is why I have become such a strong advocate for
    this program.
        I want to thank your Committee staff, Mr. Chairman, for the
    great work they are doing on this issue and others. And I am so
    pleased that H.R. 2901, the VITA Permanency Act I introduced
    with Representative Davis, has garnered the support of 38
    bipartisan cosponsors, including 13 Members of this Committee.
        It is great that the Senate has included this language in
    their tax reform package. And I will continue to lead the
    charge to maintain full funding with the Appropriations
    Committee as we work toward a spending resolution for fiscal
    year 2018.
        I want to ask, Ms. Ron, as the IRS's Taxpayer Assistance
    Centers offer less and less face-to-face help to people, are
    you seeing an increase in demand for VITA services?
        Ms. RON. Definitely. And I would say in Miami-Dade County,
    for example, we estimate that we are only serving 1 percent of
    the folks that are eligible for this service. So there is
    definitely a lot of opportunity and a lot of demand there.
        We work very closely with our local SPEC offices and IRS
    partners and there is a great trust there. And we definitely
    see a lot of increase out of need, but also, I think,
    recognition of the quality of services that we provide,
    particularly around amendments and other kinds of difficult
    situations.
        Mr. CURBELO. How is your interaction with the IRS? Are you
    getting referrals from the agency?
        Ms. RON. Yes, definitely, and there has been an increase, I
    would say, at least for the past 3 years.
        Mr. CURBELO. Okay. I also want to ask you, in your
    testimony you mentioned the vibrant entrepreneurial economy in
    Miami-Dade County, which I am so familiar with and which makes
    me so proud to come from such a diverse, dynamic, and special
    part of the world.
        Can you elaborate on any microbusiness trends that you are
    seeing? Are you seeing an increase in individuals with 1099s or
    miscellaneous income from things like Uber driving, Thumbtack,
    or other tech-related commerce?
        Ms. RON. Yes, we definitely are. I think, also, in part in
    response to the economy and especially in a place where you
    have experiences like natural disasters, Irma recently, a lot
    of people take up self-employment opportunities in order to
    meet their financial needs that they are already struggling
    with.
        So there is definitely an increased need for that. And
    because it is such a diverse community, a lot of people are not
    perhaps as well-versed with our formal financial structures and
    systems. And so they need that one-on-one support that programs
    like VITA provide.
        Mr. CURBELO. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And I am grateful to you, Ms. Ron, and to all of the
    individuals who have joined us this morning.
        Thank you very much. I yield back.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
        I now recognize the gentlelady from Washington, Ms.
    DelBene.
        Ms. DELBENE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And I just want to say thank you to all of you for being
    here with us today.
        I represent a big district in Washington State, and we have
    many areas, rural areas, where access to reliable Internet
    access is challenging, and sometimes there is no Internet
    access whatsoever.
        So when we look at rural communities and rural communities
    that may not have assistance nearby, I wondered--and you
    mentioned this, Ms. MacMillan--I wondered if you could talk a
    bit about what the experience is like for folks who don't have
    electronic access, reliable electronic access, and who live in
    rural areas where there may not be assistance close by. What is
    their experience like?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Yeah. That is one of those major limitations
    of IRS.gov, they may not have Internet access, or it just may
    not be suitable for what they need to do or what their needs
    are.
        Taxpayer Assistance Centers have been closed more and more
    recently, and the level of information that they can give and
    the different circumstances for which they can help are being
    further and further limited. The staff there has been told they
    may only answer basic tax questions during tax season, and
    outside of tax season they can't answer basic tax law questions
    at all.
        So these people, basically their only option is to either
    get on the telephone or seek out professional help. And like
    the VITA sites, there is just not enough of the Taxpayer
    Assistance Centers to go around anyway.
        So these people are ending up on the phones. And the
    phones, the level of service is pretty much a disaster. And the
    level of calls they can answer and the wait times just are
    unconscionable, and they just don't have the staff to----
        Ms. DELBENE. And if they wanted to go to a Taxpayer
    Assistance Center?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. A Taxpayer Assistance Center might be really
    far away from them, and they need to make an appointment. And I
    think that is probably the biggest issue now, because taxpayers
    are used to being able to drive to their local IRS office,
    which could be 200, 300 miles away, and they get there and they
    are told, ``Oh, we do this by appointment only. You will need
    to get on the Internet and make your appointment.''
        Ms. DELBENE. And if they can't get on the Internet and make
    an appointment?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. I guess there is a call-in number. But
    appointments are being scheduled way out in the future too.
    There are very few exceptions to the walk-in policy of you turn
    them away when they walk into the Center.
        Ms. DELBENE. So for----
        Ms. MACMILLAN. They are out of luck. They are out of luck.
        Ms. DELBENE. You talked about providing resources. What
    else do you think we can do to make sure that----
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Training. A dedicated training unit within
    the IRS would be a big help. The training has gone way downhill
    because of budgetary constraints. So they are not able to hire
    new employees, and they are not able to train employees. So
    they basically are keeping more employees at lower-level
    positions, so they don't have the authority or the education to
    know how to handle more taxpayer problems.
        Ms. DELBENE. Have others had experience with rural
    communities and have feedback?
        Ms. Lester.
        Ms. LESTER. Yeah, absolutely. We service the entire State
    of Georgia. And so the majority of our clients are in the metro
    Atlanta area, but we do offer our services to everyone
    throughout the State. And there are a lot of rural communities
    there where taxpayers want to work with us but they have to
    work with us through snail mail and fax and things like that,
    which can be very challenging.
        As Jennifer said, the Taxpayer Assistance Centers only
    accepting appointments poses a real issue because taxpayers
    have to have access to a phone, have to have access to the
    Internet. And even for taxpayers who have that, some taxpayers
    have immediate needs that could likely be resolved, but because
    they have to make an appointment they aren't able to get the
    assistance they need right then.
        Ms. DELBENE. And they would have to take time off from work
    to actually go.
        Ms. LESTER. Absolutely. And some taxpayers just don't have
    that flexibility.
        Ms. DELBENE. Is there any other feedback?
        Ms. Ron.
        Ms. RON. I would add also that in Miami-Dade County
    transportation is a huge problem, and even in some of our
    neighboring communities, like Monroe County, where there are a
    lot of farm workers. So we definitely encounter this.
        And for us, I would just offer up that there have been some
    strategies that we have used that have been helpful. For
    example, public-private partnerships with banks or other
    partners that actually have mobile units. And so we are able to
    kind of maximize that by going out on specific dates to serve
    the populations on-site.
        And another one I would say is perhaps being more creative
    around virtual tax preparation. That has also been something
    that we have used.
        Ms. DELBENE. Thanks.
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. Yes. Volunteers serve in the community
    where they live. And in many of our communities they know the
    surrounding areas that are around them. We do require that we
    have at least two volunteers in any community to be able to
    open a site.
        But we are beginning to look at what options are available
    virtually. And there are many volunteer programs around the
    country that have created virtual offerings to those locations
    that have the more rural areas. So we look at those as well.
        Ms. DELBENE. Thank you.
        Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
        I will now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr.
    Meehan.
        Mr. MEEHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And I thank this very distinguished panel for not only your
    presence here today, but for all the work you do out in the
    community on behalf of many of the taxpayers who are confused
    by the process.
        I will say, I mean, there was a point being made, and I
    think the gentleman from Georgia raised some issues, but one of
    the real objectives of the tax reform bill is simplification.
    We had testimony here just a short while ago that 94 percent of
    the people are expected to be able to file their tax returns on
    that simple card. I think that is going to improve a lot of
    issues to some extent.
        Now, where there are questions, I guess, that is where we
    are going to have to come in and follow up with some of the
    issues that exist. So we need to be able to work in that space
    for sure.
        But we have all had experiences in our own area with the
    frustrations of dealing with the IRS in terms of getting
    responses. I can tell stories much like the rest. I had a
    gentleman who had a $75,000 refund due in tax year 2014. The
    problem was, he calls up the IRS, he talks with a person,
    because it was suggested to him that he was a victim of
    identity theft. And I don't know how frequently you see these
    problems. But he mentioned that he was a victim of identity
    theft.
        They resolved it over the phone. And he said, ``Okay, now I
    have it, I see where you are in the system.'' And he told him
    he would receive his return in the coming weeks. He waited a
    couple of months, still nothing. When he contacted the IRS,
    they said, ``Well, you never sent anything to us.''
        How frequently do you run into circumstances in which there
    is either a lack of accountability or at least a lack of some
    kind of confirmation of meetings?
        And what is the impediment? I understand there are issues
    of identity theft. But what is the impediment, in this age of
    computer-generated documents and things of that nature, to
    having an acceptable use of a PDF or something else that goes
    in, in terms of dealing with them?
        Ms. MacMillan, can you start me on some of that process?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Well, I can tell you from my experience and
    what I have heard from colleagues is that is another area that
    is not being fully--tax refund holds are one of the big issues
    for identity theft issues when they come up.
        And the other issue is IP PINs, the security PINs that IRS
    can assign to taxpayers who are victims of identity theft. One
    issue that we see is that these are not available to anyone who
    hasn't had their identity stolen except for in a few
    circumstances. There are three States where they can.
        Mr. MEEHAN. How do you know if you have had your identity--
    --
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Pardon me?
        Mr. MEEHAN. How do you know if you have had your identity
    stolen?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Oh, you find out when you file a tax return
    and the IRS sends you a letter that says, ``But you already
    filed,'' and you didn't.
        Mr. MEEHAN. Okay.
        Ms. MACMILLAN. The scammers have--they go by the client
    information, the taxpayer information off the dark web, and
    then they file fraudulent returns in order to claim, you know,
    just fraudulent, made-up refunds. And they are getting more and
    more sophisticated. So the IRS has to have sophisticated
    filters for trying to catch these people.
        So the first issue is a lot of bona fide taxpayers are
    having their refunds frozen. And the other issue is, if you are
    a victim of ID theft, the IRS process for getting an IP PIN is
    kind of burdensome. But also the fact that it is not available
    to all taxpayers, even those that have not had their identity
    stolen, is a problem.
        Mr. MEEHAN. So could we amend that in some way by being
    able to require that? Or what is the reason for not allowing
    that PIN?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. The reason the IRS has stated that they are
    not making that available to all taxpayers is that it is a very
    expensive program because it is done through third-party
    providers.
        And then the identity theft, I think the filters that the
    IRS runs all tax returns through to try to gauge whether or not
    this might be a rogue return, those are getting better, but
    there is still need for improvement, and there needs to be a
    dedicated function at the IRS to help these taxpayers. When
    their refund is frozen they need to have an army of assisters
    on the phone that can help these people get through that
    process of getting their return--their refund to them.
        Mr. MEEHAN. Yeah. We have looked at this issue before, and
    I know the IRS is working very hard in this space. But we are
    seeing that there are still some impediments.
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Right.
        Mr. MEEHAN. Does anybody else have an observation with
    respect to this issue of identity theft and timely response?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. It is getting better. They have recently
    improved their filters. But, unfortunately, I think to some
    extent that is going to continue to be an issue.
        I think they just need to be able to handle these problems
    or handle the resolution more quickly. Right now they send a
    letter to the taxpayer saying, ``This might not be your return.
    Please send us some documentation.'' And it is just a long
    process for these people to get their refunds.
        Mr. MEEHAN. More work needs to be done.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
        I now recognize the gentleman and good friend from Oregon,
    Mr. Blumenauer.
        Mr. BLUMENAUER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I appreciate having our friends come in to talk about some
    of the important roles that you play trying to complete the
    network of assistance for taxpayers. It is certainly daunting
    for them.
        And having volunteers at AARP actually more extensively
    trained than some people who are doing it for hire raises
    troubling issues in terms of perhaps we shouldn't have a
    system--require certain minimum competence for people who are
    going to charge for it, at least as high as what you do with
    your volunteers. I think that is very important.
        But what I am hearing underlying your testimony is that a
    fundamental problem is that there just are not enough resources
    at the IRS. I am not hearing from you that you find lots of
    people who are lazy and who are malicious.
        Although I will say, from my visits to my local IRS
    employees, they are stressed, they are burdened, they have to
    take shortcuts to try to keep up. I have shared with people on
    this panel, I have watched them burst into tears because they
    can't give the service that they want to give.
        And I think what we need to be doing is a deeper dive on
    what Congress has done, engaged in political malpractice
    because of the antipathy that some people have to the IRS and
    taxation, punishing the taxpayers.
        What we have seen, deliberately starving the budget of the
    IRS that has dropped a billion dollars since my friends in the
    Republican Party got control of the House of Representatives
    and clamped down, a billion dollars less at a time when the
    number of taxpayers increases. It went, what, from 230 million
    to 244 million returns. And those returns are increasingly
    complex because of all the things that Congress passes.
        And while they were doing that, there were more burdens
    placed on the agency. They have to implement a number of
    legislative mandates, the Affordable Care Act, the Foreign
    Account Tax Compliance Act, Achieving a Better Life Experience,
    the ABLE Act, the reauthorization of the health coverage tax
    credit, the Protecting Americans from Tax Hike.
        All of these were unfunded, layered on top of an agency
    that has been losing staff. We have, I think, a third less than
    we had 20 years ago.
        But one of the things we still have is the computer system.
    In fact, we have had testimony before this Committee that the
    systems go--Fortran. I mean, we are talking about people in the
    1970s. They have difficulty in some instances getting people
    knowledgeable to fix and operate the computers because they are
    so out of date.
        That is the real challenge we are going to watch, we are
    going to unleash, if my Republican friends pass this tax bill,
    which everybody is still trying to find out what is in it.
        I loved finding out this weekend that people who make
    between $550,000 and $650,000 might be facing an effective
    marginal tax rate of 107 percent. I didn't hear about that in
    our march through the fact that people who earn their income
    from wages and salaries are going to be paying a higher rate
    than people who can recharacterize their income for the first
    time in our history.
        So we are about to give a beleaguered IRS, outmoded, ill-
    equipped, with few new people that are there, and these
    artificial constraints, we are about to give them more mandates
    in terms of how you are going to have guardrails to deal with
    pass-through income.
        Mr. Chairman, at some point we have to acknowledge what we
    have done to the agency. And I hope everybody spends time
    meeting with the people who work there who want to do a good
    job.
        Cutting back on enforcement that gives us $6 for each
    dollar that comes in, no business that you had would operate
    that way, and we shouldn't operate our accounts receivable this
    way.
        Thank you for your patience.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Let me just say to the gentleman that is
    why we want to do IRS reform on a bipartisan basis. I am
    committed to that because I agree with you: there are a lot of
    issues that have to be dealt with. Technology is at the top of
    the list.
        With that, I recognize the gentleman from Michigan, Mr.
    Bishop.
        Mr. BISHOP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you to the panel today for your time and for all
    your dedication to the demographic that you represent. All of
    us here represent a good number of families and individuals. On
    a daily basis, we are deluged by issues, concerns. And I have
    to say that IRS issues are high on the list of issues that come
    to my office and that our dedicated staff works on and that I
    work on a daily basis. And each of us has a story to tell, many
    of them horror stories, and they are not few and far between.
    Unfortunately, there are several of them out there, and they
    come to us almost daily.
        Mrs. Walorski mentioned some in her district, and Mr.
    Meehan did the same. I won't do that because there are too many
    to talk about. But I will say that one of the things that I am
    very proud of with this Committee is the fact that we have
    taken on tax reform. And the issues that have really vexed my
    constituents, as Mr. Meehan said, one of the biggest issues is
    how complicated this IRS Code is and the 70,000 pages of
    convoluted rules and regulations that have made life miserable
    for folks. That period of time between January 1 and April 15
    is a horror story for many families and many businesses, and
    even worse if they get audited thereafter. So anything we can
    do to simplify I would support and have supported. I think this
    will be a great bit of relief to families and to businesses.
        I also have to say that the amount of relief that we are
    giving in the form of tax rate is substantial as well. And many
    of the folks in your demographic will feel that relief in many
    ways. In fact, many of them may not have tax liability at all
    under the plan that we have put forward, which I think is
    probably the best-case scenario for everybody.
        One thing that I am concerned about is, in your
    demographic, for those of lower income, are folks that are able
    to respond to IRS audits. Can you tell me--in your
    organizations and all of your very worthy, noble organizations,
    can you tell me if you provide audit services for your
    clientele? And if so, to what extent? I guess let me start here
    with the AARP because that is one area that I know that I hear
    the most from, the older population.
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. The low-income population, yes. Tax-
    Aide itself does not provide audit services. Under the
    volunteer programs within the IRS, it is the taxpayer's
    responsibility so we ensure that we make sure that the
    taxpayers understand that this is their return and that they
    are responsible for it and for the information that is on the
    return. So we might talk to them when they get the letter; they
    usually do contact us. But we do not go with them to actually
    intervene with the audit.
        Mr. BISHOP. Okay. So you don't represent them in the audit?
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. No, we do not.
        Ms. RON. I would say we provide a program similarly. We do
    not--what we aim to do is partner up with LITC and other
    partners to help with those things.
        Ms. LESTER. Yes, we actually do work with taxpayers who are
    going through an audit or an examination with the IRS. The vast
    majority of our clients are dealing with correspondence audits.
    So, again, the IRS is sending them a letter saying that they
    are questioning or looking into particular credits or
    deductions they have taken on their return. And so, once they
    contact us, we like to step in and walk through that process
    with them. The earlier they come to us, the better, obviously,
    because we have more remedies that we can explore. The problem
    is that a lot of times just because of our population, they are
    kind of transient in nature. They may not open notices. And so
    a lot of times, when they come to us, they are much further
    along in the process. But for those taxpayers who do come to us
    while they are still in the audit phase or examination phase,
    we are able to work with them to pull documentation together.
    We might write a memorandum in support of their position. If it
    goes to appeals, we request face-to-face hearings with appeals
    with the Atlanta field office, or we work over the telephone to
    work through those issues with them.
        Mr. BISHOP. Thank you.
        Ms. MACMILLAN. As I think you know, at Enrolled Agent, our
    license is for representing taxpayers so that is one of the
    bread-and-butter areas, is postfiling correspondence. I
    personally do an awful lot of individual audits.
        Mr. BISHOP. Can you give me an idea of the demographic that
    you represent? How many of them percentage-wise would face an
    audit as a result of their tax return?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. In my practice, about half, maybe more than
    half are field audits, and that is just because I advertise or
    I put myself out there as enjoying doing field audits for
    taxpayers and office audits. The majority of what I see are
    these correspondence audits or, more often, the matching
    program, the CP-2000s, and those are--those have their own set
    of issues because they are computer-generated audits that are
    not being handled by a human being in any way, shape, or form.
        Mr. BISHOP. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
        I now recognize the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Schweikert.
        Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        This is one of those moments where I am going to throw a
    number of things at you, and I am begging for even Minority
    staff and others to sort of participate.
        First, to our witness from AARP, we love you in Arizona. As
    a congressional office, we have had terrific experiences
    coordinating and working with some of your staff.
        I am probably a very ill man. For years, I used to help
    people, even in my neighborhood, do their taxes. So they would
    come, they would bring me things to eat, and I would sit and do
    their taxes for them, which is sort of absurd that I ended up
    on this Committee because I still do my own. And even this
    week, I got letters from the IRS, I owed--they sent me a letter
    saying, ``You owe $10.47'' and then they sent my wife one,
    which we filed jointly. And that is absurd why they would
    duplicate those.
        So let me throw a series of things at you. Ms. Ron, a lot
    of your population is getting the earned income tax credit. And
    in today's world, there is a delay on that as a fraud
    prevention. I could come to you right now and say: If we could
    get the IRS to actually use outside databases--so someone comes
    in, boom, bounce it off the outside database; we know the data
    says this is the range of income--we could actually get rid of
    that delay, send them their resources immediately.
        Ms. Lester, when you actually sit someone down--and, look,
    they are asking for documentation. The fact of the matter is,
    we all have these. There is a simple technology where you take
    a picture of the 1099--and instantly, that could have been how
    you file the document that was asked for instead of having to
    find a photocopier, put it in an envelope, mail it. Boom, you
    could have done it instantly.
        In today's world, we should have the ability to have a
    biometric login to actually see your tax filing. You could run
    it on a distributive ledger so you know it is absolutely safe
    and secure and not subject to fraud.
        There are technological solutions that the rest of the
    world is using, even some of the new--and I know I am
    rambling--but if any of you have ever had to call Amazon or
    others and the person you are talking to is actually a computer
    that is using the voice recognition and walking you through,
    they are saying, ``No, you need to do this, do that, do that,
    do this,'' instead of this chaos of thinking we are going to
    have phone banks of people who are ready to deal with issues--
    please help me: Where are--am I wrong that we have missed a
    generation because the IRS is still--its base database predates
    President Kennedy. And this is the world we are dealing with.
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Yes. Definitely many of the systems and even
    the thought process at the IRS is really antiquated. We are
    encouraging e-services--not e-services--E-Signature legislation
    that I think Congressman Rice has authored.
        Mr. SCHWEIKERT. And I mean this with much love to the
    Congressman: E-Signature needs to be a thumbprint.
        Ms. MACMILLAN. That would work too. There are third-party
    providers who can provide that.
        Mr. SCHWEIKERT. I understand that, but even those are
    coding from 10 years ago.
        Ms. MACMILLAN. Yeah, that would be--anything they could do
    to improve the technology. We have also suggested having us be
    able to upload PDFs and have them actually see them, and they
    can't do that yet. So there is a definite lag in the electronic
    advancement of services with the IRS that--and I assume it is a
    funding issue.
        Mr. SCHWEIKERT. But, Ms. Lester, when you are actually
    sitting with someone of modest income and you are helping them
    do their taxes, what is the software you are using?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. I use Lacerte.
        Ms. LESTER. In terms of----
        Mr. SCHWEIKERT. I mean, are you actually using the IRS's?
    What are you filling out on your computer screen? What is the
    software? Because I know, at AARP, you use----
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. We use the IRS-provided software, which
    is TaxSlayer.
        Ms. RON. Correct. Provided--it is also TaxSlayer.
        Ms. LESTER. For us, we are dealing with controversies, so a
    lot of times we are having to draft letters and memorandum.
        Mr. SCHWEIKERT. So you are doing more triage.
        Ms. LESTER. Exactly.
        Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Don't you love the idea of being able to
    take a picture of the document?
        Ms. LESTER. That would make our lives so much easier.
        Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Having actually looked at some of this and
    I have actually tried to reach out to some of the providers,
    why it is just not more graphical, where you could sit someone
    down, and they can do this, say, and put in the number. It is
    archaic where we are at. Maybe I am living in a techno-utopian
    world, but I am hoping if we are actually really close to doing
    something, it is simpler. That is our generational inflection
    to actually now fix the way we do our data systems where we
    interact with the public that we are asking to pay these taxes.
        With that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman
    from South Carolina, Mr. Rice.
        Mr. RICE. I want to thank you for what you do in helping
    people comply with the tax law. It certainly--it is a burden to
    the average person, and it is an awful shame that it is that
    way, that we have to have such an army of folks to help them
    comply with this law. And I know you two on the end there do it
    for free. So thank you for what you do. Thank you for keeping
    people out of trouble. Thank you for keeping our government
    running more smoothly.
        I have to ask you, Ms. Ron, and Ms. Lee-Villanueva, what
    percentage--have you all looked at what percentage of your
    clients are itemizing? I would assume it was pretty low if they
    are pretty low-income folks, right? Have you looked at that and
    if this doubling of the standard deduction is in fact going to
    eliminate a lot of that and make it simpler for folks?
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. I don't have the actual percentage with
    me right now. I could get that for you and get back to you, if
    you would like. But we do see a lower number of people who
    itemize just because of the clientele we serve.
        Mr. RICE. Would you say less than 10 percent?
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. Probably about 15 percent would be my
    guess. But I would need to double-check that.
        Mr. RICE. What would you expect? Have you all run any
    numbers? What would you expect the effect of doubling the
    standard deduction would be on the number?
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. I expect it to decrease the number of
    people who need to itemize.
        Mr. RICE. And isn't that--the itemization, isn't that one
    of the more complicated areas in terms of preparing somebody's
    tax return?
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. Well, the clientele we see, it is
    really just the stress of filing their tax return. And the
    reason they come to us, they might have a very simple,
    straightforward concern, but they are just more comfortable
    being able to have somebody sit down and for them to make sure
    that it is done correctly. We do see also a large population,
    of course, of the 60-plus. It might be a lot of people who have
    never had to file their own return, but because of their
    current situation, the loss of the partner, the spousal
    partner, that might have been filing it, they are in a
    situation now that they have never been in, so they just----
        Mr. RICE. On the income side, you usually get a 1099 or a
    W-2 or something like that that you can use to fill that out.
    But the deductions and keeping track of all that and making
    sure it gets to the right--it seems to me like that would be
    the most complicated area generally for filling out tax returns
    for lower-income folks. And it seems to me like doubling the
    standard deduction will make it a lot simpler for folks.
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. It should make it simpler, yes.
        Mr. RICE. Ms. Ron, would you agree with that?
        Ms. RON. Not necessarily. I would say for the VITA
    population, if I could take a guess, I would say less than 10
    percent itemize their deductions right now and with potential--
    --
        Mr. RICE. Would you think this doubling of the standard
    deduction, do you think it would make it more or less people
    that would itemize?
        Ms. RON. Would you say that one more time?
        Mr. RICE. Okay. The doubling of the standard deduction,
    wouldn't you think that would diminish the number of people who
    itemize?
        Ms. RON. It might. But since it is less than 10 percent of
    ours that itemize now, I don't know how much of an impact that
    would have.
        Mr. RICE. So what is the most complicated area that you
    have?
        Ms. RON. The most complicated--well, for us, it is dealing
    with amendments, and it has more to do with people having their
    taxes prepared by folks who make errors, for example. The other
    one I would say is for----
        Mr. RICE. You don't do direct tax preparation----
        Ms. RON. We do, we do. But a lot of people come referred
    because they need amendments.
        Mr. RICE [continuing]. Preparation. What would be the more
    complicated area that you deal with when you are preparing--
    people on the low-income side, right?
        Ms. RON. Yes.
        Mr. RICE. Those making $50,000 or less. What generally
    complicates their tax returns?
        Ms. RON. I would say it is probably the self-employed
    folks. And for them, they would still need to be able to track
    their expenses and deductions and all that just on the
    financial management side. So I don't know how much of an
    impact it would have on them.
        Mr. RICE. You say you do a lot of earned income tax credit
    and child tax credit.
        Ms. RON. Yes.
        Mr. RICE. We had the State Attorneys General or State
    Innovation Group in here last week talking about those credits.
    And they were telling us that about 30 percent of those are
    fraud. What do you all do to ensure that, when you file the
    return, they are accurate, and they are not fraudulent?
        Ms. RON. Sure. We do a lot to prevent that. For us,
    remember for VITA sites, we are looking for 90 percent
    accuracy, so it is a different world in a way. So, for us, I
    would begin with----
        Mr. RICE. You ride down the road and you see these signs on
    the side of the road ``taxes prepared here, earned income tax
    credit,'' and I wonder about that. So what do you all do to
    ensure that it is not fraudulent?
        Ms. RON. I had a little trouble hearing over the coughing.
    So, for us, the major thing is the training of the volunteers.
    Training of the volunteers, and at sites, there is a lot of
    operational detail that goes on. People, for example, have to
    have--have to bring physical Social Security cards. If you are
    a married couple, you both have to be there to sign documents.
    There are a lot of requirements on our end to make sure that we
    prevent those kinds of issues.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. Let me first thank all of you
    for coming today. I want to especially thank all of our
    volunteers. I know in my community, in Sarasota, Florida, we
    have a lot of volunteers with a lot of great organizations.
    Without them, you wouldn't have the organizations. So I just
    want to applaud what you are doing.
        I want to do kind of a quick--we are trying to do IRS
    reform on a bipartisan basis, but I would like to do--you might
    have heard--like a lightening round, so I want you to be kind
    of concise, and then also I would like to have you give me
    whatever input to our Committee on three things I want to bring
    up to you today because I need your help on it.
        First, assuming we get tax reform done, which it looks like
    might happen before the end of the year, I am interested, what
    are your two or three biggest concerns in terms of
    implementation that we need to address quickly? I mean, they
    have already talked about 500--I think it was $500 million in
    terms of dollars available, but I would like to get your
    thoughts and your concerns.
        If you have a quick comment you want to make that you think
    would be at the top of the list in terms of this because it is
    happening at the end of the year. I am expecting it is going to
    get done, but I am interested in hearing any thoughts that you
    might have. We will start quickly with you and just be concise
    on this point.
        Ms. MACMILLAN. I think one of the big issues is going to be
    that the IRS does need to implement this, and there is going to
    be a lot of time spent bringing it up. I think it did create
    simplification for lower-income or less complicated taxpayers,
    and there is just way more to be done.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Ms. Lester, I just want everybody to be
    fairly quick because I want you to get back to me because I
    have a couple more questions. Go ahead.
        Ms. LESTER. I think the key thing will be training to make
    sure that the IRS personnel understand what the changes are,
    understanding that different tax years will have different
    requirements. And so, when looking at past controversies or
    past years, they may have one set of requirements or one set of
    laws whereas the current year may have different ones so that
    could complicate matters.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Ms. Ron, do you have anything?
        Ms. RON. I would say, from our perspective, potentially it
    is more the impact on charitable giving, which we are
    estimating could be a reduction in of 5 or 10 percent.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Ms. Lee-Villanueva.
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. The IRS readiness is the top concern
    that we would have, making sure that they are ready to
    implement the change, have the time in place to be able to
    educate and let taxpayers know what the changes are.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. The second question I have is on dispute
    resolution. I am concerned when I read in the paper, USA Today,
    62 percent of Americans don't have $1,000 in the bank. They are
    probably a lot of folks that you work with. So when someone
    gets something where they might be self-employed and, all of a
    sudden, they owe $3,000 to $5,000, what is your sense of how
    quickly that can get addressed because it is very easy to go to
    a CPA or somebody else and run up a $4,000 bill on a $4,000 to
    $5,000 issue? Is that commonplace? And is our dispute
    resolution, does that work at all, or is that a disaster?
        Ms. MACMILLAN. It is quite common when assessments are
    incorrect and with the fact that the taxpayer can't reach
    someone to quickly resolve it. Also, there is no opportunity
    for a taxpayer to go to appeals until the very end of the
    process. And we believe that appeals should be available
    earlier in the process.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. What happens when someone in the real
    world gets a bill for $3,000 to $5,000, pick a number, $2,000
    to $6,000 or something, you know, they have to go through a
    process. You are usually talking some professional. Now you are
    talking a couple grand. It seems like that has to be an area
    that we have to find a way that we can work on.
        Ms. MACMILLAN. I completely agree. And I did want to say at
    some point today that I am constantly amazed every time I have
    a successful resolution on one of these things for my
    taxpayers. I think to myself: What would somebody do if they
    didn't have me, if they didn't have the resources to hire
    someone or they couldn't even find someone?
        Chairman BUCHANAN. I am just worried about them being able
    to pay the bill.
        Anybody else on that quickly? Ms. Ron or Ms. Lester.
        Ms. RON. I would say, from the population that VITA serves,
    we are looking at people who literally sometimes leave the VITA
    site because they saved $150.00 on tax prep fees. So, if they
    do that for $150, things that are very commonly in the
    thousands are detrimental to their entire family.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. If they get a letter from the IRS, are
    you able to help them, walk them through that, maybe get it
    resolved fairly quickly, inexpensively? Is that the idea? I am
    just trying to understand it.
        Ms. RON. So, for us, we work with our partners who will
    help them navigate that system because, for most of them, they
    have no idea where to even start.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. My last question, just quickly, is on
    the taxpayer bill of rights. Is that something that, I am sure
    you're familiar with it, but is it something where the
    volunteers are being trained or educated on the taxpayer bill
    of rights because I am sure a lot of taxpayers are not looking
    at that every day--are the volunteers on behalf of the IRS, is
    there proper training and education so people understand their
    rights according to the taxpayer's bill of rights? Anybody?
        Ms. LESTER. Absolutely. From our perspective, our
    volunteers are really students and so we do a great deal of
    training, explaining to students what the taxpayer bill of
    rights means and what the rights are. We also do education and
    outreach, which is part of our mission in the LITC community,
    doing education and outreach to try to explain to a taxpayer
    what those rights and responsibilities mean.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Anybody else, quickly?
        Ms. LEE-VILLANUEVA. I would say that from--we do not
    actually educate on the bill of rights, but a lot of what the
    program and how the program is implemented is directly related
    to the bill of rights and that we do the quality of service. So
    a lot of it is written into the way the volunteer programs are
    administered and created.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. It would be helpful to me on any of
    those three issues if you have some followup, if you could get
    it to the Subcommittee, I would be interested in taking a look
    at your experience because you are in the field and dealing
    with this every day. It would be very helpful on these three
    issues.
        I would like to thank our witnesses for appearing before us
    today. It has been very productive. Thank you. Please be
    advised that Members have 2 weeks to submit written questions
    to be answered later in writing. Those questions and your
    answers will be made part of the formal hearing record.
        With that, the Subcommittee stands adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
        [Submissions for the Record follow:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                     [all]