    [House Hearing, 115 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                       HOLDING CUBAN LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY

                                     OF THE

                             COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                             AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                 JUNE 20, 2018

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 115-87

                                   __________

    Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

                  [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

             Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
                           http://oversight.house.gov

                                       ________

                           U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    31-274 PDF                      WASHINGTON: 2018

                  Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

                      Trey Gowdy, South Carolina, Chairman
    John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee       Elijah E. Cummings, Maryland,
    Darrell E. Issa, California              Ranking Minority Member
    Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Carolyn B. Maloney, New York
    Mark Sanford, South Carolina         Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
    Justin Amash, Michigan                   Columbia
    Paul A. Gosar, Arizona               Wm. Lacy Clay, Missouri
    Scott DesJarlais, Tennessee          Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
    Virginia Foxx, North Carolina        Jim Cooper, Tennessee
    Thomas Massie, Kentucky              Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
    Mark Meadows, North Carolina         Robin L. Kelly, Illinois
    Ron DeSantis, Florida                Brenda L. Lawrence, Michigan
    Dennis A. Ross, Florida              Bonnie Watson Coleman, New Jersey
    Mark Walker, North Carolina          Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
    Rod Blum, Iowa                       Jamie Raskin, Maryland
    Jody B. Hice, Georgia                Jimmy Gomez, Maryland
    Steve Russell, Oklahoma              Peter Welch, Vermont
    Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Matt Cartwright, Pennsylvania
    Will Hurd, Texas                     Mark DeSaulnier, California
    Gary J. Palmer, Alabama              Stacey E. Plaskett, Virgin Islands
    James Comer, Kentucky                John P. Sarbanes, Maryland
    Paul Mitchell, Michigan
    Greg Gianforte, Montana

                         Sheria Clarke, Staff Director
                        William McKenna, General Counsel
                   Brick Christensen, Senior Military Advisor
                             Kiley Bidelman, Clerk
                     David Rapallo, Minority Staff Director

                                     ------

                       Subcommittee on National Security

                        Ron DeSantis, Florida, Chairman
    Steve Russell, Oklahoma, Vice Chair  Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts,
    John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee           Ranking Minority Member
    Justin Amash, Michigan               Peter Welch, Vermont
    Paul A. Gosar, Arizona               Mark DeSaulnier, California
    Virginia Foxx, North Carolina        Jimmy Gomez, California
    Jody B. Hice, Georgia                John P. Sarbanes, Maryland
    James Comer, Kentucky                Vacancy
                                         Vacancy

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page
    Hearing held on June 20, 2018....................................     1

                                   WITNESSES

    Ms. Miriam de la Pena, Mother of Hermanos al Rescate Pilot, Mario
      de la Pena
        Oral Statement...............................................     6
        Written Statement............................................     8
    Ms. Ana Alejandre Ciereszko, Sister of Hermanos al Rescate Pilot,
      Armando Alejandre Jr.
        Oral Statement...............................................    10
        Written Statement............................................    12
    Mr. Jason Poblete, Attorney, Poblete Tamargo LLP
        Oral Statement...............................................    14
        Written Statement............................................    16
    Ambassador Roger Noriega, Visiting Fellow, American Enterprise
      Institute
        Oral Statement...............................................    34
        Written Statement............................................    36
    William LeoGrande, Ph.D., Associate Vice Provost for Academic
      Affairs, Department of Government, American University's School
      of Public Affairs
        Oral Statement...............................................    46
        Written Statement............................................    48

                       HOLDING CUBAN LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE

                                  ----------

                            Wednesday, June 20, 2018

                       House of Representatives
                      Subcommittee on National Security
                   Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
                                                       Washington, D.C.
        The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:07 p.m., in
    Room 2247, Rayburn Office Building, Hon. Ron DeSantis [chairman
    of the subcommittee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives DeSantis, Amash, Lynch, and Welch.
        Also present: Representative Ros-Lehtinen.
        Mr. DeSantis. The Subcommittee on National Security will
    come to order.
        Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a
    recess at any time.
        We are here today to continue this committee's oversight
    into U.S. policy towards the Cuban dictatorship.
        Almost 6 months ago, I held a field hearing in Miami to
    examine the Obama administration's failures with regard to Cuba
    policy. Today we are joined by our fellow citizens who are
    acutely aware of the failures of that policy. Armando
    Alejandre, Jr.; Pablo Morales; Mario de la Pena; and Carlos
    Costa--these are the names of the four men killed in a savage
    attack by the Castro regime on February 24th, 1996. It is my
    hope that our Department of Justice will indict Raul Castro and
    others responsible for this barbarous act.
        Armando, Pablo, Mario and Carlos were flying on a
    humanitarian mission to help desperate men, women, and children
    fleeing the oppressive Castro regime in makeshift rafts. They
    were warriors on the front lines of freedom, doing their part
    in the struggle against the evil totalitarian Cuban Government.
    These brave men, flying unarmed, were shot down over
    international waters by Cuban MiGs, a heinous crime that defies
    comprehension, except we are talking about the Castros. These
    two gangsters took pleasure in human rights abuses and
    spreading chaos throughout the region.
        Unfortunately, our government has failed to hold Cuba's
    leaders accountable. In fact, under the Obama administration,
    the United States released the men convicted for their role in
    connection with the 1996 attack. One man in particular, Gerardo
    Hernandez, had his wish come true by the Obama administration,
    which supported Hernandez in his quest to impregnate his wife
    with artificial insemination. It would be laughable if it were
    not so true, but our government helped the convicted terrorist
    get his wife pregnant while he sat in federal prison.
        To top it off, Hernandez was then released back to Cuba
    where he received a hero's welcome. It is sickening and it was
    and is a disgrace.
        We are also here today to talk about what the Trump
    administration has done with regard to Cuba and what it can do
    in the future because we can do more. We must indict criminals
    like Raul Castro. We can indict them and place economic
    sanctions on other senior officials of the Cuban Government. We
    can get back the fugitives and cop killers like Joanne
    Chesimard.
        However, I am deeply concerned that the bureaucracy in the
    State Department is purposely disregarding and undermining
    President Trump's Cuba policies. We may be seeing the final
    gasp of the holdovers attempting to continue down the failed
    policy course. The President in his speech in Little Havana
    last June made it clear. Quote: we will not lift sanctions on
    the Cuban regime until all political prisoners are freed,
    freedoms of assembly and expression are respected, all
    political parties are legalized, and free and internationally
    supervised elections are scheduled. End quote.
        I will make sure to follow up with the President, the
    Secretary of State, the National Security Council to ensure
    that all these things happen. This committee will continue to
    pursue the corrupt bureaucrats who obstruct and enable this
    regime. We owe it to men like Armando, Pablo, Mario, and
    Carlos. We owe it to their loved ones. We owe it to those in
    Cuba who live this nightmare every day.
        It is my honor and privilege to have the family members of
    the men murdered on that day in February 1996 here today as a
    reminder that the fight for justice continues. We will not
    forget and we will continue the fight.
        Today with us testifying about that fight is Miriam de la
    Pena. Miriam is the mother of Mario, and we are so honored to
    have you here to testify. We are also grateful that your
    husband Mario is here as well. Thank you and God bless.
        We are also blessed to have Ana Alejandre Ciereszko. Ana is
    the sister of Armando, and again, we are very honored to have
    you here today. I thank you for coming.
        We also have Mr. Jason Poblete, a national security and
    federal regulatory lawyer in private practice, who is an expert
    in Cuba policy issues and can help us understand what we can do
    right now to take action against Cuba's leaders.
        Next is Ambassador Roger Noriega, who is caught in traffic
    and also served as Assistant Secretary of State for Western
    Hemisphere Affairs in the Bush administration. Before that, he
    was the U.S. Permanent Representative to OAS, the Organization
    of American States, and he can provide more details about what
    the regime around the region and throughout the world.
        Finally, we have William LeoGrande, Professor of Government
    and Dean of the American University School of Public Affairs.
    We appreciate you being here.
        Thank you so much for being here, all of you. We look
    forward to your testimony.
        And with that, I would like to recognize the ranking member
    of the committee, Mr. Lynch, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank
    you for holding this hearing to examine the state of human
    rights in Cuba. I would also like to thank today's witnesses
    for your willingness--for helping the committee with its work.
        Let me begin by expressing my sincere sorrow to the
    families of the four U.S. crew members whose civilian aircraft
    was shot down in 1996 by Cuban fighter jets during a
    humanitarian service mission with Brothers to the Rescue. Ms.
    Miriam de la Pena, the mother of U.S. pilot Mario de la Pena,
    and Ms. Ana Alejandre Ciereszko, the sister of U.S. pilot
    Armando Alejandre, are here with us today and I thank you both
    for your willingness and strength in offering this subcommittee
    your important perspectives on human rights accountability in
    Cuba.
        It is clear that the Republic of Cuba remains an
    authoritarian state whose citizens are subjected to the
    widespread abuse of human rights by their government. Over the
    past decade alone, the U.S. State Department has consistently
    reported serious human rights violations that include the use
    of threats, physical assault, detentions, and intimidation by
    the government as a means of limiting the freedom of expression
    and peaceful assembly and silencing political opposition. Cuban
    authorities have also routinely engaged in the monitoring of
    private communications and limitations on freedom of the press.
    As underscored by the State Department, the free exercise of
    these and other civil liberties is prohibited in the Cuban
    constitution when contrary to, quote, the existence and
    objectives of the socialist state. Closed quote.
        Moreover the government has sought to prevent workers from
    forming independent trade unions and placing stringent
    restrictions on workers rights. According to the State
    Department, the majority of human rights abuses have been
    committed at the direction of the Cuban Government with
    impunity.
        This year witnessed the transition to a new government in
    Cuba with the resignation of President Raul Castro, and
    selection of the Cuba National Assembly of Vice President
    Miguel Diaz-Canel to succeed him as President. While President
    Castro will remain as leader of the Cuban Communist Party
    throughout 2021, the inauguration of President Diaz-Canel
    marked the first time since the 1959 Cuban revolution that a
    Castro is not leading the government.
        In the midst of this political transition, it is imperative
    that we continue to address the Cuban Government's repression
    of human rights by building upon the renewed U.S. engagement
    with Cuba that began during the Obama administration and which
    has been left largely intact under President Trump. We must
    further develop a U.S.-Cuba policy that underscores and
    reflects our longstanding commitment to the advancement and
    protection of international and universal human rights. This
    must include the continuation of the bilateral human rights
    dialogue with Cuban officials that began in 2015, as well as
    meaningful funding for efforts undertaken by the U.S. Agency
    for International Development, State Department, and other
    agencies to support human rights and the development of
    democratic and civil society in Cuba.
        While President Trump proposed zeroing out funding for
    human democracy programs for fiscal year 2018, the bipartisan
    omnibus appropriations bill supported by Congress in March
    ultimately provided $20 million in funding, the same as in
    fiscal year 2017.
        Our Cuba policy going forward must also work to ensure the
    safety of U.S. diplomatic personnel deployed on the island. In
    the aftermath of the still-unexplained injuries suffered by at
    least 24 employees at the U.S. embassy in Havana in November of
    2016, the State Department ordered the departure of all non-
    emergency embassy personnel and their families to mitigate
    their exposure to, quote, attacks of an unknown nature. Close
    quote.
        However, in March of this year, the State Department
    announced a permanent staffing plan at U.S. Embassy Havana
    under which the mission will now operate with the minimum
    personnel necessary to perform core diplomatic and consular
    functions. We must make every effort to keep these personnel
    safe.
        Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the discussions of these
    issues and other important issues relating to U.S.-Cuba
    relations with today's witnesses.
        I yield back the balance of my time.
        Mr. DeSantis. The gentleman yields back.
        I will now recognize the gentlewoman from Florida, who is
    no stranger to this issue and other issues involving fighting
    for human rights, Ms. Ros-Lehtinen, for an opening statement.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much, Chairman DeSantis and
    Ranking Member Lynch. Thank you for convening this important
    hearing, for allowing me to join you for the second time this
    year, as we debate U.S. policy toward my native homeland of
    Cuba.
        I would like to thank our witnesses today, all familiar
    faces. Jason and Roger, thank you for being with us today.
    Always good to see you again.
        Ana and Miriam, thank you for not giving up on your efforts
    to seek justice for Armando and for Mario. You two represent a
    united voice of the surviving families of these Brothers to the
    Rescue pilots who want nothing more than to hold accountable
    the Cuban regime officials responsible for the murder of these
    innocent brave men. It has been 22 years since that fateful
    Saturday when three U.S. citizens and one U.S. permanent
    resident, all innocent, unarmed civilians, were brutally killed
    by the Castro regime for simply trying to aid Cubans escaping
    Castro's illegal grip on power. Carlos Costa, Mario de la Pena,
    Armando Alejandre, Pablo Morales were heroes in the eyes of the
    American people and to the Cuban people.
        22 years later, how has the United States, their country,
    honored the memories of these brave patriots? Well, Ruben
    Martinez Puente, Lorenzo Alberto Perez y Perez, and Francisco
    Perez y Perez, all Cuban regime operatives, have been indicted
    in our U.S. courts for their roles in the murderous Brothers to
    the Rescue shoot-down, but until this day, sadly they have yet
    to be held accountable. I have urged administration after
    administration to bring these perpetrators to the United States
    so that they can be prosecuted in accordance with our laws and
    justice for this criminal act can be served.
        But accountability does not just stop with them. This was
    an orchestrated attack. And as we know, nothing happens in Cuba
    without being sanctioned by the Castro regime. And that means
    Raul Castro himself, which is why I urge our U.S.
    administration and our courts to go after Raul Castro for his
    role in the murderous act. The Department of Justice and the
    Department of State can and must indict Raul Castro and all
    others involved in the shoot-down.
        Yet, each administration since the attack has not moved one
    inch to hold them responsible. Instead, in its pursuit of
    normalizing relations with the island, the Obama administration
    made the monumental error of releasing Cuban spy Gerardo
    Hernandez--and you have pointed it out--who was convicted of
    conspiracy to commit espionage and conspiracy to commit murder
    for his role in the murder of these brave pilots.
        Mr. Chairman, in a previous hearing we are so happy that
    you held in our hometown of Miami, we have already discussed
    the negative implications of the misguided Cuba policy of the
    Obama administration, giving concession after concession to a
    murderous regime in exchange for nada, zip, zilch, nothing. And
    to this day, that same regime, for it does not matter who leads
    it, whether it is Castro or Diaz-Canel--that same regime that
    violated international airspace in order to kill Carlos, Mario,
    Armando, and Pablo--it remains as repressive as ever, routinely
    beating, harassing, detaining peaceful protesters and
    journalists.
        Even as President Obama was visiting the island, the human
    rights abuses remain unchanged, and as our very own State
    Department's latest Human Rights Report on Cuba points out,
    there are many, many, many political prisoners in Cuba today.
        I laud Ambassador Nikki Haley for her announcement
    yesterday to withdraw the United States from the U.N. Human
    Rights Council. Having Cuba serve in the council is a mockery
    to the mission of that institution, an insult to the Cuban
    people who day after day are denied their most basic human
    rights.
        This administration has taken concrete, positive steps to
    reverse President Obama's wrongheaded Cuba policy by clamping
    down on economic lifelines to the oppressors and their hand-
    picked military leaders.
        However, it can and must do more so that there is no
    question that this administration truly supports the Cuban
    people and our cherished ideals and values and not seek a
    rapprochement with the dictatorial regime.
        So I look forward to the witnesses today. I thank you for
    your leadership, Mr. Chairman. I want to hear about their
    recommendations to Congress and to the administration. To the
    Brothers to the Rescue pilots, their families, you will forever
    be an inspiration to those who are willing to endure great
    sacrifices for the sake of a free Cuba.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Ranking Member. I am
    honored that you have allowed me to participate. Thank you.
        Mr. DeSantis. I thank the gentlewoman.
        And I am pleased to introduce our witnesses. We do have, as
    was mentioned, Ms. Miriam de la Pena, who is the mother of
    Brothers to the Rescue pilot Mario de la Pena. Welcome. We have
    Ms. Ana Alejandre Ciereszko, sister of Brothers to the Rescue
    pilot Armando Alejandre, Jr. Welcome. We have Mr. Jason
    Poblete, attorney at Poblete Tamargo LLP. Welcome to you.
    Ambassador Roger Noriega, who is now at the American Enterprise
    Institute. Glad you made it through the traffic. It was really
    bad today because I came in about an hour ago and it was a long
    trip just from the airport. And then Dr. William LeoGrande,
    Associate Vice Provost for Academic Affairs for the Department
    of Government at American University School of Public Affairs.
    Welcome and welcome to you all.
        Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses will be sworn in
    before they testify. So if you can please rise and raise your
    right hand.
        [Witnesses sworn.]
        Mr. DeSantis. Please be seated.
        All witnesses answered in the affirmative.
        In order to allow time for discussion, please limit your
    testimony to 5 minutes. Your entire written statement will be
    made a part of the record. And as a reminder, the clock in
    front of you shows your remaining time. The light will turn
    yellow when you have 30 seconds left and red when your time is
    up. Please also remember to press the button to turn your
    microphone on before speaking and to speak into the microphone.
        And right now, I would like to recognize Ms. de la Pena for
    5 minutes.

                           WITNESS STATEMENTS

                     STATEMENT OF MIRIAM DE LA PENA

        Ms. de la Pena. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good
    afternoon, members of the committee.
        I am Miriam de la Pena, and I am here because of the four
    innocent men from my district of south Florida who were
    murdered, namely, Armando Alejandre, Jr.; Carlos Costa; Pablo
    Morales; and my own son, Mario de la Pena.
        Their killers are known, but sadly they remain at large.
        Ambassador Madeleine Albright at the U.N. General Assembly
    on March 6th, 1996, shortly after the shoot-down, described it
    this way, and I quote. The fact is that on February 24th, 1996,
    the Cuban military knowingly, willingly, and in broad daylight
    shot down two aircraft that were unarmed and clearly marked as
    civilian. As Cuban officials were well aware, these aircraft
    posed no threat to the Cuban people or government. The aircraft
    were in international airspace and they were destroyed
    intentionally and in clear violation of international law.
    Close quote.
        The condemnation was echoed by well-known national and
    international organizations such as the European Union, the
    U.N. Commission on Human Rights, and its counterpart at the
    Organization of American States, the U.N. Security Council, the
    United States Congress, the International Civil Aviation
    Organization, and my own district, the U.S. Southern District
    Court of Florida.
        Just to cite a few from the reports above, ICAO reaffirmed
    its condemnation of the use of weapons against civil aircraft
    in flight as being incompatible with elementary considerations
    of humanity.
        And the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in Geneva,
    Switzerland reported also in 1996--and I quote--the shoot-down
    was a premeditated act and that it constituted a violation of
    the right of life to four people. Close quote.
        The evidence supporting the crime committed against three
    Americans and a legal resident is overwhelming. It was the
    shoot-down that prompted President Clinton to sign into law the
    Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity Act of 1996. It is also
    the reason why the law cites the findings by the U.S. Congress
    condemning the shoot-down as an act of terrorism by the Castro
    regime. Congress also urged the President back then to seek in
    the International Court of Justice indictments for this act of
    terrorism by Fidel Castro. Close quote.
        We could also note that Congress reaffirmed the fact that
    it is incumbent upon the U.S. Government to protect the lives
    and livelihood of U.S. citizens, as well as the rights of free
    passage and humanitarian missions.
        With so much evidence at hand, for a crime defined--and I
    quote the above entities--as a barbaric violation of
    international law, an extrajudicial killing, premeditated and
    intentional, using brutal methods, and tantamount to cold-
    blooded murder, among others, is it not inconceivable that the
    criminals have gotten away with the murders of four innocent
    men for the past 22 years? Perhaps declassifying additional
    information will aid in the pursuit of justice. Or must we die
    and never see justice served?
        I beg those of you in government responsible for our safety
    and that of our children to do what is necessary to procure
    justice and put an end to impunity.
        Adding fuel to the fire, the families were deeply hurt when
    Gerardo Hernandez, the only Cuban high ranking military
    official serving a life sentence in the U.S. for his role in
    the shoot-down, was released from prison. We felt back then, as
    we feel now, betrayed when this communist cadre of the Cuban
    military apparatus was set free and returned to Cuba. Justice
    was aborted by a stroke of President Obama's pen. Should a U.S.
    President defend and respect the rights of American citizens,
    or should he favor the victimizers?
        Finally, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, it is my
    hope that the systematic human rights abuses taking place in
    Cuba will soon come to an end and that our President will be
    the first President in nearly 6 decades to shake the hand of a
    Cuban President freely elected by the people who respects and
    defends the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
        I thank the committee for the opportunity granted me on
    behalf of our loved ones, Armando, Pablo, Carlos, and Mario.
    God bless the United States of America.
        [Prepared statement of Ms. de la Pena follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. DeSantis. Thank you.
        Ms. Ciereszko, you are up for 5 minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF ANA ALEJANDRE CIERESZKO

        Ms. Ciereszko. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and committee
    members. Thank you for having this hearing today.
        My brother Armando Alejandre, a marine and Vietnam veteran,
    was murdered by the Cuban Government on February 24th, 1996,
    together with Carlos Costa, Mario Manuel de la Pena, and Pablo
    Morales.
        I am here representing Armando's widow, daughter, sisters,
    96-year-old mother, and many family members. 22 years after the
    shoot-down, we are still searching for justice. We were dealt a
    very harsh blow when Gerardo Hernandez, convicted of conspiracy
    to murder in the shoot-down, was returned to Cuba by President
    Obama.
        What I brought to you today is a compilation of evidence
    that supports the guilt of the many responsible for these
    murders. This information, reports, indictments, transcriptions
    of communications, audio tapes, et cetera, should bring us a
    little bit closer to justice. We provided most of this evidence
    to the FBI in 2002. In 2003, the U.S. District Court, Southern
    District of Florida, issued indictments charging the head of
    the Cuban air force, Ruben Martinez Puente, and the MiG pilots,
    the brothers, Lorenzo Alberto and Francisco Perez-Perez, with
    conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals, destruction of aircraft, and
    murder. These indictments marked the end of action by the U.S.
    Government on these murders.
        We seek additional indictments against many others
    responsible for the shoot-down. First on the list is Raul
    Castro, who at the time of the shoot-down was the chief of the
    Cuban armed forces. Castro no longer enjoys protection as head
    of state. There is an audio recording of a radio interview in
    which Castro accepts responsibility for these murders. There is
    also testimony that the Cuban air force had practiced shooting
    down small planes days before February 24th.
        Various members of the Cuban intelligence and armed forces
    at the time of the shoot-down should also be brought to
    justice. These include Eduardo Delgado Rodriguez, Brigadier
    General of the Cuban Directorate of Intelligence; Emilio
    Palacios, pilot of the MiG 23; Ulises Rosales del Toro, chief
    of the FAR; and others.
        We are also looking for the political will on the part of
    our government to transmit to Interpol the names of the pilots
    and the general who gave the order, all of whom have pending
    indictments in U.S. courts. We need to make sure that they are
    apprehended and brought to trial.
        We are also requesting information on the role of Ana Belen
    Montes in the shoot-down. She is currently serving a 25-year
    sentence in a U.S. correctional facility after having pled
    guilty to charges of espionage on behalf of the Cuban
    Government. Montes was the top Cuban analyst for the Defense
    Intelligence Agency and advised President Clinton on the
    response to the shoot-down.
        We are also pursuing information on Rolando Sarraff
    Trujillo who was exchanged by President Obama for Alan Gross at
    the same time as when the three of the five convicted spies of
    the Wasp Network were released. Mr. Sarraff was accused of
    being an agent of the CIA and served 20 years in a Cuban jail.
    He has never been made available to the media, and nothing is
    known about his whereabouts. We believe he may have information
    on the shoot-down and would like our government to make him
    available to us.
        To summarize, we are seeking indictments, starting with
    Raul Castro. We are requesting that the names of those already
    indicted be provided to Interpol. We are pursuing additional
    information from the testimony of others in our search for the
    truth.
        We hope that you, this committee, understand that this is
    not a Cuban issue. Carlos and Mario were born in the United
    States. My brother Armando was an American citizen, a marine
    and Vietnam veteran. And Pablito was a U.S. resident. As
    Americans, they deserve the justice that is their due.
        Thank you very much for this opportunity.
        [Prepared statement of Ms. Ciereszko follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. DeSantis. Thank you.
        Mr. Poblete, you are up.

                       STATEMENT OF JASON POBLETE

        Mr. Poblete. Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Eli
    Weisel said, ``to forget the dead would be akin to killing them
    a second time.'' So thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking
    Member, and members of the committee for holding this important
    oversight hearing on justice for American victims of Cuban
    communism.
        Since the World War II Nuremberg Tribunals, international
    systems, national courts, and laws the world over have evolved
    so that today lawyers have better tools, albeit imperfect, to
    exact justice against violators of universally accepted
    fundamental freedoms. Chile's Pinochet, Yugoslavia's Milosevic,
    Peru's Fujimori, Panama's Noriega, Brazil's Lula Da Silva,
    Rwanda's Ntaganzwa, and many other former government officials
    have come face to face with Lady Justice. These are not
    symbolic moves. Rather, they advance the cause of justice and
    the rule of law. These are fundamental building blocks of a
    civilized society.
        Yet, as American Airline planes land in Cuban airports,
    Carnival and Norwegian ships dock at Cuba ports, and Marriott
    International manages four hotels with the Cuban military,
    American families harmed by Cuban officials are increasingly
    concerned that their cases have been forgotten. Murder,
    torture, forced disappearances, hostage taking, as well as
    property confiscations unparalleled in the history of the
    western hemisphere are some of the crimes that have been
    committed against American citizens. My message to these Cuba
    criminals: justice will be done. America will be coming for
    you.
        The Brothers to the Rescue shoot-down is a good example of
    justice delayed, a delay that has harmed the cause of justice
    throughout the Americas. It is an invitation to autocrats to
    target America. That has been the case recently in Venezuela
    and in Nicaragua. The United States must indict Raul Castro and
    co-conspirators under U.S. law for the Brothers to the Rescue
    murders. The United States and other responsible stakeholders
    must also redouble efforts to track, investigate, indict any
    Cuban official for crimes against Americans.
        The concerns of Americans tortured in Vietnam by the
    Cubans, the Brothers to the Rescue families that are here with
    us, and the thousands of other Americans who were victims of
    Cuban communism --- their opinions and their values are just as
    important as those of American Airlines, Marriott, Carnival,
    Norwegian, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and others who
    advocate engagement with Cuba. All Americans deserve equal
    access and treatment under the law.
        Cuba will never be China or Vietnam of the Americas. It is
    an island of 10 million people run by bad and corrupt central
    planners. It is not a paradise. It is a gulag. It is a Potemkin
    village. When Americans visit, they only see what the police
    state wants them to see. The Communist Party does not like
    Americans, free markets, private property, or the rule of law.
    Americans who they perceive as a threat, as Cuba has done since
    1959, will be targeted.
        That is why it was extremely disconcerting but not
    surprising when I learned that the State Department was
    investigating via a statutorily required accountability review
    board the alleged attacks against Americans stationed at Post
    Havana.
        Justice for the victims of the Brothers to the Rescue
    shoot-down is a linchpin case for other Americans seeking
    justice for a wide range of crimes committed by Cuban outlaws.
    U.S. attorneys need full access to all information. The
    declassification process should begin swiftly. The safety of
    Americans I believe depends on it.
        Interpol red notices should be issued for Cuba
    international outlaws for existing indictments, and if legally
    possible, the United States should rescind whatever was
    promised to Cuba in exchange for five Cuban spies released from
    U.S. federal prison. One of these criminals who was directly
    involved in the Brothers to the Rescue shoot-down said upon his
    release, I will do it again if I have to.
        Removing Cuba from the state sponsors of terrorism list was
    a grave mistake and, based on the public record, reckless. It
    undermined U.S. policy goals, but also set back the cause of
    justice as has failing to effectively enforce many other U.S.
    laws.
        For example, nine sections of the Libertad Act have been
    poorly implemented and parts of it mostly ignored by both
    Republican and Democratic administrations. It is not, as
    critics claim, however, an outdated law that does not work.
    Laws work when laws are enforced.
        President Donald Trump's 2017 reorientation of U.S. policy
    was an excellent development, decades overdue. Senior executive
    agency officials and presidential advisors should robustly
    execute President Trump's national security presidential memo
    number 5, one that puts, quote, national security and foreign
    policy interests first.
        Similarly, as the Congress seeks rigorous enforcement of
    the global Magnitsky Act, CAATSA sanctions, it should seek the
    same for statutes guiding policy toward a regime with American
    blood on its hands.
        Finally, beyond the more than eight recommendations offered
    in my prepared remarks for the record, the Trump administration
    should seriously consider creating an interagency task force to
    track down international outlaws in the Americas. Access to the
    U.S. market is a privilege not a right. International outlaws
    belong behind bars. They and in some cases their family members
    should never be allowed to vacation in America or, worse,
    freely move about our country as agents of a totalitarian
    police state.
        [Prepared statement of Mr. Poblete follows:]

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        Mr. DeSantis. I thank the gentleman.
        The chair now recognizes Ambassador Noriega for 5 minutes.

                 STATEMENT OF AMBASSADOR ROGER NORIEGA

        Ambassador Noriega. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I
    have a written statement for the record. I apologize again for
    my tardiness. No disrespect to the committee and its members.
        Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you at this
    hearing to remind us all of the February 24, 1996 attack by the
    Castro regime which took the lives of four innocent men who
    were patrolling international waters to locate and rescue Cuban
    brothers and sisters at peril in the sea. The Castros never
    faced justice for this crime despite the late dictator's public
    admission that the two brothers orchestrated this ambush and
    the use of lethal force.
        In retrospect, Mr. Chairman, we should have recognized this
    1996 attack as dispositive proof of the illegitimacy of the
    terror state in Cuba. Indeed, this hearing is a welcomed
    opportunity to recall that the regime in Havana has never been
    confronted for its international crime spree, which began
    nearly 60 years ago, 6 decades ago, and continues to this very
    day.
        From urging the preemptive nuclear strike against the
    United States in 1962, to organizing a terror campaign against
    Central Americans, to sharing anti-American intelligence with
    our enemies in Baghdad and Belgrade, the Castro regime is an
    implacable and tireless foe of the United States.
        Castro's ongoing criminal conspiracy on our doorstep, which
    has converted Venezuela into a platform for narcotics
    trafficking, money laundering, embezzlement, extortion, and
    political destabilization demands an urgent and effective
    response. The Castro regime installed Nicolas Maduro as the
    leader in Venezuela and the perfection of a dictatorship and
    the destruction of an oil-rich economy is Cuba's handiwork,
    which was being perpetrated brazenly at the same time that
    President Obama was heaping concessions on Havana.
        Cuban agents run an internal security apparatus in
    Venezuela that safeguards a narcostate, which consists of
    dozens of senior officials, including the president himself and
    the former vice president, who have been convicted or
    sanctioned by U.S. authorities for their involvement in
    narcotrafficking and support for terrorism. Indeed, Mr.
    Chairman, there is fresh evidence of the Castro clan's direct
    involvement in drug trafficking and terrorism in Venezuela.
        Last month, two active duty Venezuelan military officers
    informed U.S. law enforcement regarding the direct involvement
    of Cuban military personnel in cocaine smuggling and support
    for Colombian terror camps deep into Venezuelan territory.
    Specifically, one of the reports implicates Raul Castro's son-
    in-law, Cuban General Luis Alberto Rodriguez Lopez-Calleja, in
    the shipment of cocaine through the Venezuelan port of Lohidao.
    Another senior Venezuelan officer told U.S. authorities how
    Cuban officers ordered the local military to steer clear of
    Colombian narco guerilla camps deep in Venezuelan territory,
    which are responsible for transiting cocaine to Caribbean ports
    bound for the United States and other markets.
        At long last, we should treat Castro regime officials as
    the international criminals that they are, starting with the
    decision not to recognize their hand-picked pawn as the
    legitimate leader of Cuba. In other words, we should break
    diplomatic relations with Cuba.
        We should gather the evidence to publicly identify Cubans
    who are involved in narcotrafficking, human rights violations,
    and crimes and indict them in U.S. courts.
        We should convince willing partners in the international
    community to join us in applying financial sanctions against
    these criminals, freezing their assets and blocking their
    access to global financial networks.
        In my view, U.S. policymakers should judge future policies
    toward Cuba on whether they increase the economic and political
    freedom of the Cuban people. For example, we should
    reinvigorate our high profile solidarity with the Cuban
    dissidents, human rights activists, independent journalists and
    artists who have informed me personally that the U.S. embassy
    in Havana basically abandoned them after the Obama opening to
    the Cuban regime.
        We should rally likeminded governments in Latin America and
    Eastern Europe to engage the Cuban people not the dictatorship.
        We should restore funding for robust pro-democracy programs
    in Cuba.
        The State Department should return Cuba to the list of
    terrorist sponsors in light of the fact that the Castro regime
    sustains Colombian terror groups despite a peace process in
    that country.
        And we should demand accountability, as the ranking member
    said, for acoustic attacks against two dozen U.S. diplomats in
    Havana, which did personal physical harm to these individuals
    representing us overseas.
        There should be a top to bottom review of the U.S.
    Department of the Treasury and Commerce licenses for commercial
    activities in Cuba to ensure that they are consistent with U.S.
    policy and public law.
        And we should restore restrictions on tourism travel to
    Cuba and focus instead on genuine, meaningful people-to-people
    contact that will advance real contact between the people of
    the United States and Cuba.
        And finally, as Jason Poblete has said, we should enforce
    title IV and title III of the Libertad Act and send a warning
    to even American businesses that those that are trafficking in
    confiscated property face accountability if the President
    decides at any time, which he could, to stop waiving that right
    of action.
        Those are a few ideas, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much
    for your attention, and I welcome the opportunity to answer any
    questions.
        [Prepared statement of Ambassador Noriega follows:]

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        Mr. DeSantis. Thank you.
        Doctor, you are up, 5 minutes.

                     STATEMENT OF WILLIAM LEOGRANDE

        Mr. LeoGrande. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member,
    other members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to
    testify today.
        In deciding to engage with North Korea, President Trump
    recognized that sanctions alone had failed to halt North
    Korea's nuclear program. So he took a different approach. Time
    will tell if it works. I hope that it will.
        But the basic idea behind his approach is no different than
    the idea behind President Obama's opening to Cuba. After
    decades of using the stick of sanctions against an adversarial
    regime without much success, it made sense to try to advance
    U.S. interests through a policy of engagement.
        Whether your principal concern is human rights or
    compensation for nationalized U.S. property or the return of
    U.S. fugitives or Cuba's support for the failing regime in
    Venezuela, there is no chance of making progress on these
    issues with a policy of hostility that relies exclusively on
    sanctions, especially when no other country in the world
    observes those sanctions. Moreover, our current economic
    sanctions harm the living standards of ordinary Cubans, and
    that is why the last three Popes, including John Paul II, who
    was no friend of communism, opposed the embargo.
        The idea of engaging with Cuba is not a new one. Every
    President since Dwight D. Eisenhower, including both Richard
    Nixon and Ronald Reagan, engaged in negotiations with Cuba
    because they realized there were some problems that could only
    be solved with Cuban cooperation. And that is even more true
    today when so many of the issues we face in the western
    hemisphere are transnational, issues like migration,
    environmental protection, human trafficking, and organized
    crime.
        Engagement with an adversary in order to advance U.S.
    interests does not constitute a moral endorsement of that
    adversary's behavior. President Trump's meeting with Kim Jong-
    un was not an endorsement of North Korea's human rights record,
    nor was President Obama's opening to Cuba an endorsement of
    that regime's human rights record.
        Our current National Defense Strategy, approved by the
    President in December, identifies China and Russia as our
    principal adversaries in the world today. Both are
    authoritarian regimes with terrible human rights records. Yet,
    we engage with them every day on a variety of issues because
    doing so serves our national interest. There is no reason not
    to do the same with Cuba. Moreover, as we back away from
    engagement with Cuba, Russia and China are rushing to fill the
    vacuum.
        With regard to seeking criminal indictments against Cuban
    officials for human rights abuses, even if there were legal
    grounds for securing these indictments, the accused could not
    be brought to trial because Cuban law prohibits the extradition
    of Cuban nationals. In 1982, four Cuban officials were indicted
    in Florida for narcotics trafficking, and the only effect of
    those indictments was to delay the establishment of
    counternarcotics cooperation between the United States and Cuba
    until the 1990s. In 2003, as has been mentioned, the two Cuban
    pilots responsible for shooting down the Brothers to the Rescue
    plane were indicted in Florida, along with their commanding
    general, but that case has not progressed either.
        Pursuing human rights indictments today might be
    symbolically satisfying, but it would poison the atmosphere of
    bilateral relations and impede existing law enforcement
    cooperation. That would endanger our ability to secure the
    extradition of U.S. nationals who have committed crimes here
    and then fled to Cuba and our ability to pursue the prosecution
    in Cuba of Cuban nationals for crimes committed in the United
    States. These are areas in which there has been significant and
    ongoing progress since 2014.
        In short, I believe that more has been gained and more can
    be gained through a policy of engagement and cooperation on
    issues of mutual interest than through a policy of unmitigated
    hostility and heightened sanctions, real or symbolic.
        I agree with former Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez
    when he argues that engagement is the best way to help a new
    generation of Cubans modernize their economy and their
    political system.
        Cuba today is going through a process of change, both in
    its leadership and in its economy. The old generation that
    founded the regime is leaving the political stage. Most are
    already gone. At the same time, Cuba is trying to move from a
    Soviet style economic planning system to some version of market
    socialism like China and Vietnam. Economic reform is providing
    Cubans greater economic freedom, and if it succeeds, it could
    raise their standard of living significantly. U.S. policy ought
    to facilitate that change not impede it.
        Ultimately the people of Cuba will determine their nation's
    future and decide on issues of accountability. If the United
    States wants to have a positive influence on these developing
    changes, it has to engage, not sit on the sidelines.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        [Prepared statement of Mr. LeoGrande follows:]

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        Mr. DeSantis. Thank you.
        The chair now recognizes himself for 5 minutes.
        Ms. de la Pena, can you tell me a little bit about Mario
    and why was he involved with Brothers to the Rescue?
        Ms. de la Pena. Yes, Mr. Chairman. My son Mario wanted to
    be a pilot all his life. It was something that he just loved.
    And he started flying and learning about airplanes at a very
    early age. And when he had all his licenses to fly, Brothers to
    the Rescue was already rescuing--and it was in the news--
    rescuing lots of Cuban rafters who would otherwise perish at
    sea. And it was a very wonderful thing to do. I admired him for
    wanting to do that, volunteer his time. And so he volunteered
    and he was accepted to fly with them.
        He was going to school and he had a part-time job, and in
    between, he would fly whenever he got called for a mission. And
    he would leave the house at 7:00 in the morning, fly, and come
    back, and tell me the stories of what happened. And the first
    time he flew--no, not the first time he flew because he first
    flew as an observer and then later as a pilot. But the first
    time that he saw a young couple at sea, it was a little spot.
    And they communicated via a two-way radio. The couple was
    younger than he was, and he was only like 22. And he came back
    and he said, Mom, they were younger than I am and they were at
    sea with sharks and the whole works. And he was just very
    excited about doing it. That is why he joined Brothers to the
    Rescue because it was a very fulfilling experience for him.
        Mr. DeSantis. Ms. Ciereszko, what about Armando? What was
    he like and why did he do it?
        Ms. Ciereszko. Well, Armando came to the United States as a
    10-year-old. We came in 1960 to escape Castro's communism. And
    he always felt a love for Cuba, but he also felt a love for the
    United States. And Armando was the kind of person who always
    wanted to help others. He truly believed that his service in
    Vietnam was going to help stop communism, the spread of
    communism. He had not been able to stop it in Cuba. He was just
    a little kid when he left. But he believed that he could make
    an impact there.
        Afterwards, he stayed very active on many issues both on
    Cuban issues but also on issues in the United States. During
    the Gulf War, he provided a lot of support to the families of
    the men and women who went to fight in the Gulf War. There were
    groups in Miami that were supporting them, and he did a lot
    there. And so he was always active with that.
        He actually was not a member of Brothers to the Rescue. He
    was just someone who cared about what was going on. And he had
    flown only once before to the Bahamas where there was a camp
    where many rafters had been taken to because they had not been
    able to reach U.S. shores. They had reached the Bahamas. And
    they had taken diapers and milk and food. And they were
    supposed to go back to the Bahamas that day, and he was very
    excited about that.
        But I think it was planned by the Cuban Government to make
    sure that instead they were on the Florida straits looking for
    rafters because they were not allowed to land in the Bahamas
    because the Cuban Government had a visit to the camp that day,
    and they did not want both groups there at the same time.
        Mr. DeSantis. Now, what you and then other families--the
    experience about how the U.S. Government reacted to this and
    have you been disappointed? How would you express your feelings
    about the aftermath? Here we are many years later.
        Ms. Ciereszko. We felt that the Clinton administration had
    a very weak response because we thought they are killing
    Americans on international waters. And the only thing that came
    out of that was the Helms-Burton Cuban Libertad Act. And it did
    not feel like it was enough.
        Before that, we always believed that the United States
    would stand for its citizens anywhere in the world. I cherish
    my United States passport. I travel a lot. But I do not feel as
    comfortable today as I did many, many years ago when I really
    believed that the United States would come to bat for any
    American citizen wherever they got into trouble.
        Mr. DeSantis. Ms. de la Pena?
        Ms. de la Pena. I feel equally as disappointed in the
    response because my son would say I do not break the law. I am
    saving lives, and I will be fine, Mom.
        I was worried about the weather and the clouds and the
    thundering when he was flying in these little planes. I was not
    worried about a Castro warplane coming out of their territory
    into international airspace and killing and shooting down the
    two planes without any notice to the pilots.
        But it was very weak--the response.
        And also, 2 years ago, President Clinton met with Raul
    Castro here at the United Nations and shook hands with him, and
    how happy he was to finally meet him. That was very hurtful for
    us as well. The guy that gave the order to kill American
    citizens and you are very happy to hold his hand? It is one
    disappointment after another.
        Mr. DeSantis. My time has expired. I will recognize the
    ranking member for his questions.
        Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        First of all, again, let me just express my sorrow at your
    loss. And let me express my thanks to your sons and to the
    other pilots for their service to individual freedom and
    democracy and, in the case of your son, Ms. Ciereszko, his
    service to the United States Marine Corps.
        Mr. Noriega and Dr. LeoGrande, both in your remarks you
    talked about--Mr. Noriega you talked about maintaining support
    for the Cuban dissidents and funding for pro-democracy efforts,
    people-to-people contact. Dr. LeoGrande, similar sentiments as
    well about engagement. Engagement.
        So the current policy really with President Trump is really
    one of disengagement and more sanctions-related. And I
    understand the thinking behind that, although there is a long
    history that says the sanctions are not working. I have been to
    Cuba several times, and I have to agree with that sentiment.
        How do we get there? How do we get to a point of holding
    the Cuban leadership accountable through engagement? How does
    that work if this system of sanctions has not been successful
    these many years?
        Ambassador Noriega. Well, I think one of the points I
    wanted to make in my statement, Congressman, was that we have
    tried for 60 years to treat the Cuban Government as if it were
    a legitimate government. We have tried that and it has failed.
    I think we need to recognize that the purpose of the United
    States is not to sell rice and soybeans. It was put on earth to
    promote democracy and protect human rights and promote these
    shared values to make the world a better place.
        Engaging the totalitarian regime of Cuba to the exclusion
    of the 11 million people in Cuba I think is a grotesque
    mistake. I think the idea that people who are going to the
    beaches of Cuba, to which Cuban people do not have access
    themselves, to suntan themselves and the idea that sunbathers
    are going to liberate Cuba is grotesque as well. The idea of
    American tourists doing pub crawls and rum tastings, tiptoeing
    through their tropical gulag in Havana I think is grotesque as
    well.
        But I think it is a mistake for people to assert that we
    did not have travel to Cuba. Hundreds of thousands of American
    people travel to Cuba on a regular basis in different
    categories of travel.
        The best ambassadors for the United States are Cuban
    Americans who are also the people who heap benefits, material
    benefits, on their family members in Cuba. The United States
    does some commerce with Cuba, but we cannot underestimate the
    importance of that personal contact of Cuban American family
    members. And I think that their wishes should have been
    respected by President Obama as he engaged the regime that
    keeps those people enslaved.
        Mr. Lynch. Let me ask Dr. LeoGrande. There is a sense among
    some people that ironically the sanctions have actually helped
    the regime by this rallying around the leaders there against
    the big, bad United States. What are your senses as opposed to
    sanctions versus engagement?
        Mr. LeoGrande. Well, I think there is no doubt that Cuban
    leadership has used the hostility of the United States to try
    to rally Cuban nationalism, wrap themselves in the Cuban flag.
    And I think they have got 50 years of experience doing that.
    They know how to do it. They are pretty good at it.
        I think in many ways President Obama's policy of engagement
    was a more difficult one for them to actually deal with because
    the boogeyman was gone, as Ambassador Roberta Jacobson said at
    one point. They could not point to the United States as the
    source of all their problems anymore.
        With regard to engagement, I do not think it is really
    accurate that we spent 50 years treating the Cuban Government
    like a legitimate government. Up until most recently in 2014,
    our attitude was, in fact, that the Cuban Government was
    illegitimate. And we have the greatest sanctions still today
    against Cuba, greater than we have against any other country in
    the world. It is the policy of engagement that President Obama
    began, which began then to treat Cuba as a legitimate
    government, as at least a de facto government in the same way
    that we treat lots of governments around the world that we do
    not like as the de facto government because it serves our
    national interest.
        Mr. Lynch. Thank you.
        Mr. Chairman, my time has expired. I yield back.
        Mr. DeSantis. The gentleman yields back.
        The chair notes the presence of our colleague, who I did
    note for an opening statement, but I just want to ask
    officially unanimous consent that Ms. Ros-Lehtinen be allowed
    to fully participate in today's hearing. And without objection,
    it is so ordered.
        And I would now like to recognize her for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Well, thank you so much, gentlemen, for
    your gracious nature.
        I surely appreciate it because this issue matters so much
    to me and to the constituents I represent. And there is no
    question that Castro ordered his Cuban air force to shoot down
    the two unarmed civilian aircraft, and they were identified as
    such, that killed Carlos, Mario, Armando, and Pablo.
        Sadly, many of our allies around the world turned a blind
    eye to that atrocious attack and continue to this day to turn a
    blind eye to the abysmal human rights record, the violations
    committed every day by the Castro regime in Cuba. And for too
    long, the wrongs committed upon American citizens have gone
    unpunished, particularly in the case of the murders of these
    four brave pilots.
        The Cuban regime is known, as you pointed out, Mr.
    Chairman, for harboring U.S. fugitives of justice, including
    William Morales, Joanne Chesimard, so many. And the regime is
    also known for its coziness with other U.S. designated foreign
    terrorist groups like Hezbollah and the FARC. The regime is
    responsible for destabilizing the governments of other
    countries in the region. In Venezuela, in Nicaragua, in
    Ecuador, we have seen Castro's hand in weakening the democratic
    institutions of those countries.
        And I would ask the experts here under current U.S. law,
    what authorities or avenues are available for the families to
    sue or for the U.S. Government to bring to justice the
    individuals responsible for the shoot-down and other many human
    rights violations. Also, are there any legal barriers or
    restrictions that prevent this from happening, that could be
    resolved by an act of Congress? Or is it that administrations
    have lacked the political will? What do we need to do?
        And finally, we hear about the international mechanisms to
    go after the regime, a tribunal set up by the U.N. Security
    Council, getting responsible nations to join us in holding the
    Cuban regime officials accountable for their human rights
    abuses. But how do we go about doing that, if we agree that we
    should? We know that Russia and China will block anything that
    we try to do on Cuba at the Security Council. Sometimes even
    our allies, who agree with us, as we saw with Ambassador
    Haley's statements on our withdrawal from the U.N. Human Rights
    Council yesterday, are unwilling to take that extra step and do
    the right thing. So what levers of persuasion or pressure can
    we use to get them on board?
        So the legal barriers. What legal avenues are available for
    redress? And what can we do internationally to get others to
    help us?
        Mr. Poblete. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        I think the first step we have to take is focus on the
    political will to get us there. The legal mechanisms have
    existed. I think plenty of U.S. attorneys in your hometown have
    tried. I think what happens is that when the indictments reach
    Washington, something happens at the Department of State and at
    the Justice Department and at the White House potentially, and
    the whole thing--as the families have--they will share many
    stories with you over 2 decades' worth of trying to do this.
    Something just happens. It comes to a halt.
        That is why I was recommending the first step, declassify
    everything we have. Empower the U.S. attorneys to pursue this
    again. The red notices frankly can be issued tomorrow if they
    wanted to do it for some of the existing indictments.
        But also I think the other part of this beyond political
    will, because that is an important part of any justice equation
    in cases like these, you have to enforce U.S. law. U.S. law is
    not an embargo. It is a big myth that there is a comprehensive
    embargo in place against Cuba. That has not existed since 1992.
    There are difficulties in engaging in the Cuban marketplace,
    but it is not a comprehensive embargo because the law has never
    been enforced that way.
        And that gets to your question and a lot of points that
    have been raised here. The U.S. Government has never tried to
    internationalize our strategy, as required in statute, to get
    our allies to cooperate with us. So in the case of some of
    these indictments and the red notices, we could work with our
    colleagues in Latin America, Asia, Europe, folks that want to
    work with us to pursue maybe the Interpol notices, to cooperate
    with us to bring these people to justice, to freeze assets, to
    freeze bank accounts to make it so that no international Cuban
    scofflaw can leave Cuba. We can do that tomorrow. We just need
    the political will to make it so.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you, Mr. Poblete.
        Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, for your generosity.
        Mr. DeSantis. No problem.
        The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Vermont for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Welch: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        First of all to moms who lost your sons, I join all of us
    in expressing my condolences to you and I admire your
    perseverance in behalf of their memory and justice for them. So
    thank you.
        And Professor LeoGrande, just in your words describe how
    engagement would be helpful to young Cubans in an effort to
    modernize their political system?
        Mr. LeoGrande. Well, the first thing it does, as we were
    speaking of earlier, is it takes away the regime's ability to
    blame the United States for all of Cuba's problems. I think
    engagement particularly extended travel--and I have to say that
    Americans are not lying on beaches thinking that that is going
    to liberate Cuba. The law still prohibits Americans actually
    from going to Cuba strictly for tourism.
        But engagement with Americans has helped to build a new
    private sector in Cuba. There are now over 500,000 private
    businesses, not counting agricultural businesses.
        Mr. Welch: Has travel gone down since the change in
    administrations?
        Mr. LeoGrande. It has. Travel is down this year over last
    about 40 percent from the United States. And I think that is
    primarily due to the travel warning that the State Department
    put in place when we had the order of departure from the
    embassy. The order of departure, of course, was required by law
    and it was not unreasonable to reduce the staffing of the
    embassy given the apparent danger that U.S. diplomats were in.
    But if that persists, then it does cast a shadow over our
    ability to have a more productive relationship with Cuba.
        You know, young Cubans are hopeful. First of all, young
    Cubans, I should say, are much more critical of the Cuban
    regime than the older generation is. They are much less
    tolerant of its lack of freedom, its lack of economic and
    political freedom. But they have generally been, as all Cubans
    have been, supportive of a policy of U.S. engagement. There are
    a couple of polls that have been done by people here in the
    United States in Cuba asking Cubans what they think about the
    policy of engagement, and they have supported it.
        Mr. Welch: All right. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Noriega, there are human rights issues obviously in
    Cuba. And I know you are passionate about that in Cuba, and
    thank you for that. But do you believe those human rights
    standards should apply to all countries, freedom of expression,
    free practice of religion, and the right to form political
    association?
        Ambassador Noriega. Yes. They are universally recognized
    human rights. I would have no problem endorsing those.
        Mr. Welch: So I would take it you would believe the U.S.,
    if it is going to be supportive of human rights in Cuba, should
    be supportive of human rights everywhere.
        Ambassador Noriega. Of course.
        Mr. Welch: There are some contradictions it appears to some
    outside observers. For example, last year, as you know,
    President Trump was with King Solman of Saudi Arabia, and there
    is an immense amount of evidence that there are serious human
    rights abuses in Saudi Arabia. And the President said we are
    not here to lecture. We are not here to tell other people how
    to live, what to do, or how to worship. How does that square
    with our advocacy, what we should be doing in Cuba?
        Ambassador Noriega. I am happy to assure you, Congressman,
    I agree with you, that we should defend human rights
    everywhere.
        Mr. Welch: Well, thank you.
        Ambassador Noriega. You are welcome.
        Mr. Welch: Professor LeoGrande, can you think of a
    principled reason why the President would cut off relations
    with Cuba for human rights reasons but at the same time
    withhold any criticism of human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia?
        Mr. LeoGrande. Well, you know, in the history of American
    diplomacy, the United States has always supported human rights
    in principle, but in practical terms, we often balance our
    support for human rights off against other interests that we
    may have, economic, strategic interests. And I think that is
    what we see in the President's policy, as I said earlier,
    toward North Korea or his policy towards the Philippines and so
    on.
        Mr. Welch: One last question. How are our farmers doing
    under the current policy towards Cuba?
        Mr. LeoGrande. I am sorry. How are?
        Mr. Welch: Are Midwest farmers doing?
        Mr. LeoGrande. Right now because our farmers cannot get
    private financing, external financing for their sales to Cuba
    and the Cubans have to pay cash up front, we are not the most
    attractive customer for the Cuban Government. We have,
    nevertheless, been able to maintain several hundred million
    dollars of trade, but if that financing restriction were to be
    removed, the Cuban market is a $2 billion agricultural imports
    market.
        Mr. Welch: Thank you.
        My time has expired. I yield back.
        Mr. DeSantis. The gentleman yields back.
        The chair now receives himself for 5 minutes.
        Ambassador Noriega, when Obama did his opening to Cuba, you
    had a lot of American corporations partnering and doing
    business with the Cuban military and the tourist industry, in
    particular, where those industries traffic in stolen property
    that was seized from the regime. So this conflicts with the
    Helms-Burton law, which I know you were heavily involved with,
    to protect the rights of Americans whose property was stolen in
    Cuba and the Trump policy prohibiting commerce with the
    military dictatorship. But yet, for decades, foreign companies
    have been trafficking in these stolen properties. And despite
    last year's reversal, American companies continue to do so as
    well.
        In your opinion how should that problem be handled by the
    U.S. Government?
        Ambassador Noriega. Well, I think it is more important than
    ever particularly that some U.S. companies are engaging and
    there are some travel and Carnival cruises and all these sorts
    of things going down using facilities in Cuba. It is more
    important than ever that we apply the law because there are
    Americans who are now essentially violating the concept of
    property rights of fellow American citizens. And so there are a
    couple of provisions that could be applied.
        Title IV of the Libertad Act authorizes the Secretary of
    State to pull the visas of people who participate in that. And
    so there will be some American companies that have foreign
    executives who could potentially be impacted by that.
        And you have title III, the right of action. It simply says
    go to a court of law and demonstrate that this is your
    property, that under the Libertad Act, this person was not
    authorized to use that property. And the person trafficking in
    that stolen property would be accountable to the other
    American, or for that matter, foreign companies could also be
    accountable to Americans if the President of the United States
    decided to stop waiving the right of people to bring action
    under title III of the Libertad Act, which the President could
    do tomorrow if he wanted to.
        Mr. DeSantis. Mr. Poblete, do you agree?
        Mr. Poblete. I think we have to find a way to bring Cuba to
    account on not only these claims but claims of the families.
    And the property issue--and this is odd coming from a lawyer,
    but the last thing some of us want to do is end up court trying
    to litigate cases and spending our client's money on litigation
    because litigation is expensive. But we need to use title III,
    the threat of it. We need to use title IV more robustly to
    bring Cuba to the negotiating table and stop hedging so much,
    not just on the certified claims but on these cases. And I
    think that is how we need to approach the Cuba conundrum. I do
    not think it is that complicated. We have States in the Union
    that have a lot more GDP than Cuba will ever generate.
        So I think it is a manageable issue, but I think right now
    what we really need is political will. I understand the
    arguments on both sides, but the claimants have been waiting a
    very long time. If we keep this curious ambivalence that has
    characterized U.S. policy for about 20 years, again Republican
    and Democrat administrations, who have not wanted to deal with
    this issue. But we must deal with this issue primarily because
    American citizens are being hurt. Secondly, American interests
    are being undermined. We are not the only ones trying to get
    into Cuba. The Russians are trying to get in there. China is
    trying to get in there. The Europeans are trying to compete
    with us.
        So I think a concerted effort where there is political will
    from the Trump administration--the President laid out very
    clearly. End economic practices that disproportionately benefit
    the Cuban Government or its military, intelligence agencies,
    and what have you. It is a very broad approach where he is
    instructing the executive branch this is where I want to go.
    And I think it is in the execution where the executive branch
    officials and his advisors need to follow through on. And I
    think we can get to an agreement, but we have to finally tackle
    it and be willing to not punt it. We would love to have title
    III, but that is not the, I guess, economically optimal
    solution to this issue. We need a solution that we can
    negotiate directly hopefully with a future Cuban Government.
        Mr. DeSantis. Ms. de la Pena, is there any doubt in your
    mind that Raul Castro is responsible for the deaths?
        Ms. de la Pena. None whatsoever and I hold him accountable.
        Mr. DeSantis. Ms. Ciereszko, any doubt that Raul Castro is
    culpable?
        Ms. Ciereszko. None at all. And I encourage you to listen
    to the transmission from the radio interview that he gave. I
    have provided that in my documents.
        Mr. DeSantis. You see our government will indict like
    Martha Stewart for some things. Why not indict Raul Castro for
    his role? These people just did not do this on their own. They
    were directed to do it by the regime and by Raul Castro. And I
    think that if the Trump administration would move forward with
    a series of indictments, but certainly that indictment, I think
    that that would send a very strong signal that this
    administration, like it has sent signals in other parts of the
    world, that it does mean business and it is going to take care
    of some of these issues that have been lingering for a long
    time.
        I was in Jerusalem when they moved the embassy. That had
    been going on for decades. Finally we did it. You see other
    parts of the world where there is this movement.
        So we need to bring an indictment against Raul Castro, and
    I hope they do that very quickly.
        And I am out of time.
        Steve, do you want to be recognized?
        Mr. Lynch. No. I have no further questions.
        Mr. DeSantis. Ileana?
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. No. Thank you so much.
        Mr. DeSantis. Well, I want to thank you guys for coming. I
    know it is frustrating when you are talking about an issue that
    has lingered, but my view is that you just cannot give up, and
    if there are ways where we in the Congress can be helpful to
    try to push forward with good policy, whether it is
    accountability or whether it is applying the law more
    vigorously so that the American people's objectives are met, we
    have got to do that. And so we did the Miami trip in January.
    That was illuminating, and then this hopefully will give us
    some momentum to go to the White House and say now is the time.
    Let us take some action.
        With that, this hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 3:20 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]