[House Hearing, 115 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
FACEBOOK: TRANSPARENCY AND USE OF CONSUMER DATA
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
APRIL 11, 2018
__________
Serial No. 115-114
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Printed for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce
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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
GREG WALDEN, Oregon
Chairman
JOE BARTON, Texas FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
Vice Chairman Ranking Member
FRED UPTON, Michigan BOBBY L. RUSH, Illinois
JOHN SHIMKUS, Illinois ANNA G. ESHOO, California
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee GENE GREEN, Texas
STEVE SCALISE, Louisiana DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio MICHAEL F. DOYLE, Pennsylvania
CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
GREGG HARPER, Mississippi G.K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina
LEONARD LANCE, New Jersey DORIS O. MATSUI, California
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky KATHY CASTOR, Florida
PETE OLSON, Texas JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
DAVID B. McKINLEY, West Virginia JERRY McNERNEY, California
ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois PETER WELCH, Vermont
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida PAUL TONKO, New York
BILL JOHNSON, Ohio YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
BILLY LONG, Missouri DAVID LOEBSACK, Iowa
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana KURT SCHRADER, Oregon
BILL FLORES, Texas JOSEPH P. KENNEDY, III,
SUSAN W. BROOKS, Indiana Massachusetts
MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma TONY CARDENAS, California
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina RAUL RUIZ, California
CHRIS COLLINS, New York SCOTT H. PETERS, California
KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
TIM WALBERG, Michigan
MIMI WALTERS, California
RYAN A. COSTELLO, Pennsylvania
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina
(ii)
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hon. Greg Walden, a Representative in Congress from the State of
Oregon, opening statement...................................... 2
Prepared statement........................................... 4
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
State of New Jersey, opening statement......................... 5
Prepared statement........................................... 6
Witness
Mark Zuckerberg, Cofounder, Chairman, and Chief Executive
Officer, Facebook, Inc......................................... 8
Prepared statement........................................... 10
Answers to submitted questions \1\........................... 212
Submitted Material
Subcommittee memorandum.......................................... 106
Article of November 20, 2012, ``Friended: How the Obama Campaign
Connected with Young Voters,'' by Michael Scherer, Time,
submitted by Mr. Burgess....................................... 112
Article of April 9, 2018, ``We Already Know How to Protect
Ourselves From Facebook,'' by Zeynep Tufekci, New York Times,
submitted by Mr. Burgess....................................... 114
Article of March 21, 2018, ``It's Time to Break Up Facebook,'' by
Eric Wilson, Politico, submitted by Mr. Burgess................ 118
Letter of April 9, 2018, from Faiz Shakir, National Political
Director, and Neema Singh Guliani, Legislative Counsel,
American Civil Liberties Union, to Representatives in Congress,
submitted by Mr. Walden........................................ 120
Statement of NetChoice by Carl Szabo, Vice President and General
Counsel, April 9, 2018, submitted by Mr. Walden................ 125
Letter of April 5, 2018, from John Rowan, National President and
Chief Executive Officer, Vietnam Veterans of America, to Mr.
Walden and Mr. Pallone, submitted by Mr. Walden................ 131
Letter of April 11, 2018, from Allison S. Bohm, Policy Counsel,
Public Knowledge, to Mr. Walden and Mr. Pallone, submitted by
Mr. Walden..................................................... 142
Letter of April 10, 2018, from Marc Rotenberg, President,
Electronic Privacy Information Center, et al., to House Energy
and Commerce Committee members, submitted by Mr. Walden........ 147
Federal Trade Commission Complaint of December 17, 2009, by Marc
Rotenberg, President, Electronic Privacy Information Center, et
al., submitted by Mr. Walden................................... 163
Letter of April 10, 2018, from Charles H. Rivkin, Chairman and
Chief Executive Officer, Motion Picture Association of America,
to Mr. Walden and Mr. Pallone, submitted by Mr. Walden......... 192
Letter of April 10, 2018, from Morgan Reed, President, ACT, the
App Association, to Mr. Walden and Mr. Pallone, submitted by
Mr. Walden..................................................... 193
Letter of April 10, 2018, from Curt Levey, President, and Ashley
Baker, Director of Public Policy, the Committee for Justice, to
Mr. Walden and Mr. Pallone, submitted by Mr. Walden............ 201
----------
\1\ Questions for the record and responses from Facebook, Inc.,
have been retained in committee files and also are available at
https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/
ByEvent.aspx?EventID=108090.
Letter of April 9, 2018, from Jeffrey Chester, U.S. Co-Chair, and
Finn Lutzow-Holm Myrstad, EU Co-Chair, Digital Policy
Committee, Trans Atlantic Consumer Dialogue, to Mark
Zuckerberg, Chief Executive Officer, Facebook, submitted by Mr.
Walden......................................................... 205
Letter of October 30, 2017, from Arab American Institute, et al.,
to Mark Zuckerberg, Chief Executive Officer, and Sheryl
Sandberg, Chief Operating Officer, Facebook, submitted by Mr.
Walden......................................................... 206
Statement of National Council of Negro Women by Janice L. Mathis,
Executive Director, April 10, 2018, submitted by Mr. Walden.... 211
FACEBOOK: TRANSPARENCY AND USE OF CONSUMER DATA
----------
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 11, 2018
House of Representatives,
Committee on Energy and Commerce,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:59 a.m., in room
2123, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Greg Walden (chairman
of the committee) presiding.
Members present: Representatives Walden, Barton, Upton,
Shimkus, Burgess, Blackburn, Scalise, Latta, McMorris Rodgers,
Harper, Lance, Guthrie, Olson, McKinley, Kinzinger, Griffith,
Bilirakis, Johnson, Long, Bucshon, Flores, Brooks, Mullin,
Hudson, Collins, Cramer, Walberg, Walters, Costello, Carter,
Duncan, Pallone, Rush, Eshoo, Engel, Green, DeGette, Doyle,
Schakowsky, Butterfield, Matsui, Castor, Sarbanes, McNerney,
Welch, Lujan, Tonko, Clarke, Loebsack, Schrader, Kennedy,
Cardenas, Ruiz, Peters, and Dingell.
Staff present: Jon Adame, Policy Coordinator,
Communications and Technology; Mike Bloomquist, Staff Director;
Daniel Butler, Staff Assistant; Karen Christian, General
Counsel; Kelly Collins, Legislative Clerk, Energy/Environment;
Zack Dareshori, Legislative Clerk, Health; Jordan Davis,
Director of Policy and External Affairs; Melissa Froelich,
Chief Counsel, Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection; Adam
Fromm, Director of Outreach and Coalitions; Ali Fulling,
Legislative Clerk, Oversight and Investigations, Digital
Commerce and Consumer Protection; Theresa Gambo, Human
Resources and Office Administrator; Brighton Haslett, Counsel,
Oversight and Investigations; Elena Hernandez, Press Secretary;
Zach Hunter, Communications Director; Paul Jackson,
Professional Staff Member, Digital Commerce and Consumer
Protection; Peter Kielty, Deputy General Counsel; Bijan
Koohmaraie, Counsel, Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection;
Ryan Long, Deputy Staff Director; Milly Lothian, Press
Assistant and Digital Coordinator; Mark Ratner, Policy
Coordinator; Austin Stonebraker, Press Assistant; Evan Viau,
Legislative Clerk, Communications and Technology; Hamlin Wade,
Special Advisor for External Affairs; Everett Winnick, Director
of Information Technology; Greg Zerzan, Counsel, Digital
Commerce and Consumer Protection; Michelle Ash, Minority Chief
Counsel, Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection; Julie
Babayan, Minority Counsel; Jeff Carroll, Minority Staff
Director; Jennifer Epperson, Minority FCC Detailee; David
Goldman, Minority Chief Counsel, Communications and Technology;
Lisa Goldman, Minority Counsel; Tiffany Guarascio, Minority
Deputy Staff Director and Chief Health Advisor; Zach Kahan,
Minority Outreach and Member Services Coordinator; Jerry
Leverich III, Minority Counsel; Dan Miller, Minority Policy
Analyst; Caroline Paris-Behr, Minority Policy Analyst; Kaitlyn
Peel, Minority Digital Director; Tim Robinson, Minority Chief
Counsel; Michelle Rusk, Minority FTC Detailee; Andrew Souvall,
Minority Director of Communications; and C.J. Young, Minority
Press Secretary.
Mr. Walden. The Committee on Energy and Commerce will now
come to order.
Before my opening statement, just as a reminder to our
committee members on both sides, it is another busy day at
Energy and Commerce. In addition, as you will recall, to this
morning's Facebook hearing, later today our Health Subcommittee
will hold its third in the series of legislative hearings on
solutions to combat the opioid crisis. And remember, our
Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee will hold a hearing
where we will get an update on the restoration of Puerto Rico's
electric infrastructure following last year's hurricane season.
So, just a reminder, when this hearing concludes, I think
we have votes on the House floor. Our intent is to get through
every Member before that point to be able to ask questions, but
then after the votes, we will come back into our subcommittees
to do that work. As Ray Baum used to say, the fun never stops.
The Chair now recognizes himself for 5 minutes for purposes
of an opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. GREG WALDEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OREGON
Good morning. Welcome, Mr. Zuckerberg, to the Energy and
Commerce Committee in the House. We have called you here today
for two reasons: One is to examine the alarming reports
regarding breaches of trust between your company, one of the
biggest and most powerful in the world, and its users; and the
second reason is to widen our lens to larger questions about
the fundamental relationship tech companies have with their
users.
The incident involving Cambridge Analytica and the
compromised personal information of approximately 87 million
American users--or mostly American users--is deeply disturbing
to this committee.
The American people are concerned about how Facebook
protects and profits from its users' data. In short, does
Facebook keep its end of the agreement with its users? How
should we as policymakers evaluate and respond to these events?
Does Congress need to clarify whether or not consumers own
or have any real power over their online data? Have edge
providers grown to the point that they need Federal
supervision?
You and your cofounders started a company in your dorm room
that has grown to be one of the biggest and most successful
businesses in the entire world. Through innovation and
quintessentially American entrepreneurial spirit, Facebook and
the tech companies that have flourished in Silicon Valley join
the legacy of great American companies who build our Nation,
drove our economy forward, and created jobs and opportunity.
And you did it all without having to ask permission from the
Federal Government and with very little regulatory involvement.
The company you created disrupted entire industries and has
become an integral part of our daily lives. Your success story
is an American success story, embodying our shared values of
freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom of
enterprise.
Facebook also provides jobs for thousands of Americans,
including my own congressional district, with data centers in
Prineville. Many of our constituents feel a genuine sense of
pride and gratitude for what you have created, and you are
rightly considered one of the era's greatest entrepreneurs.
This unparalleled achievement is why we look to you with a
special sense of obligation and hope for deep introspection.
While Facebook has certainly grown, I worry it may not have
matured. I think it is time to ask whether Facebook may have
moved too fast and broken too many things.
There are critical unanswered questions surrounding
Facebook's business model and the entire digital ecosystem
regarding online privacy and consumer protection: What exactly
is Facebook? Social platform? A data company? An advertising
company? A media company? A common carrier in the information
age? All of the above or something else?
Users trust Facebook with a great deal of information:
their name, hometown, email, phone number, photos, private
messages, and much, much more. But in many instances, users are
not purposely providing Facebook with data. Facebook collects
this information while users simply browse other websites, shop
online, or use a third-party app.
People are willing to share quite a bit about their lives
online based on the belief they can easily navigate and control
privacy settings and trust that their personal information is
in good hands. If a company fails to keep its promises about
how personal data are being used, that breach of trust must
have consequences.
Today we hope to shed light on Facebook's policies and
practices surrounding third-party access to and use of user
data. We also hope you can help clear up the considerable
confusion that exists about how people's Facebook data are used
outside of the platform.
We hope you can help Congress, but more importantly the
American people, better understand how Facebook user
information has been accessed by third parties from Cambridge
Analytica and Cubeyou to the Obama for America Presidential
campaign.
And we ask that you share any suggestions you have for ways
policymakers can help reassure our constituents that data they
believe was only shared with friends or certain groups remains
private to those circles. As policymakers, we want to be sure
that consumers are adequately informed about how their online
activities and information are used.
These issues apply not just to Facebook but equally to the
other internet-based companies that collect information about
users online.
So, Mr. Zuckerberg, your expertise in this field is without
rival. So thank you for joining us today to help us learn more
about these vital matters and to answer our questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Walden follows:]
Prepared statement of Hon. Greg Walden
Good morning and welcome, Mr. Zuckerberg, to the Energy and
Commerce Committee.
We've called you here today for two reasons: One is to
examine alarming reports regarding breaches of trust between
your company--one of the biggest and most powerful in the
world--and its users. And the second reason is to widen our
lens to larger questions about the fundamental relationship
between tech companies and their users.
The incident involving Cambridge Analytica and the
compromised personal information of approximately 87 million
users, mostly Americans, is deeply disturbing to this
committee.
The American people are concerned about how Facebook
protects and profits from its users' data. In short, does
Facebook keep its end of the agreement with its users? How
should we, as policy makers, evaluate and respond to these
events?
Does Congress need to clarify whether or not consumers own
or have any real power over their online data? Have edge
providers grown to the point that they need Federal
supervision?
You and your co-founders started a company in your dorm
room that has grown to be one of the biggest and most
successful businesses in the world. Through innovation and a
quintessentially American entrepreneurial spirit, Facebook and
the tech companies that have flourished in Silicon Valley join
a legacy of great American companies who built our Nation,
drove our economy forward, and created jobs and opportunity.
And you did it all without having to ask permission from the
Federal Government, and with very little regulatory
involvement. The company you created disrupted entire
industries and has become an integral part of our lives.
Your success story is an American success story, embodying
our shared values of freedom of speech, freedom of association,
and freedom of enterprise. Facebook also provides jobs for
thousands of Americans, including in my own congressional
district at the data center in Prineville, Oregon. Many of our
constituents feel a genuine sense of pride and gratitude for
what you have created, and you are rightly considered one of
this era's greatest entrepreneurs.
This unparalleled achievement is why we look to you with a
special sense of obligation and hope for deep introspection.
While Facebook has certainly grown, I worry it has not
matured. I think it is time to ask whether Facebook may have
moved too fast and broken too many things.
There are critical, unanswered questions surrounding
Facebook's business model and the entire digital ecosystem
regarding online privacy and consumer protection.
What exactly is Facebook--a social platform, a data
company, an advertising company, a media company, a common
carrier in the information age, all of the above, or something
else?
Users trust Facebook with a great deal of information-their
name, hometown, email, phone number, photos, private messages,
and much, much more. But in many instances, users aren't
actively providing Facebook with data. Facebook collects this
information while users simply browse other websites, shop
online, or use a third-party app.
People are willing to share quite a bit about their lives
online based on the belief that they can easily navigate and
control privacy settings and trust that their personal
information is in good hands.
If a company fails to keep its promises about how personal
data are being used, that breach of trust must have
consequences.
Today, we hope to shed light on Facebook's policies and
practices surrounding third-party access to and use of user
data. We also hope you can help clear up the considerable
confusion that exists about how people's Facebook data are used
outside the platform.
We hope you can help Congress, but more importantly the
American people, better understand how Facebook user
information has been accessed by third parties, from Cambridge
Analytica and CubeYou, to the Obama for America presidential
campaign.
And we ask that you share any suggestions you have for ways
policymakers can help reassure our constituents that data they
believe was only shared with friends or certain groups, remains
private to those circles.
As policymakers we want to be sure that consumers are
adequately informed about how their online activities and
information are used. These issues apply not just to Facebook,
but equally to the other internet-based companies that collect
information about users online.
Mr. Zuckerberg, your expertise in this field is without
rival. Thank you for joining us today to help us learn more
about these vital matters.
And now, I yield to the gentleman from New Jersey, ranking
member of the Energy and Commerce Committee Mr. Pallone, for 5
minutes.
Mr. Walden. With that, I yield now to the gentleman from
New Jersey, the ranking member of the Energy and Commerce
Committee, my friend Mr. Pallone, for 5 minutes for purposes of
an opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY
Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I also want to thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being
here today.
Facebook has become integral to our lives. We don't just
share pictures of our families. We use it to connect for
school, to organize events, and to watch baseball games.
Facebook has enabled everyday people to spur national political
movements. Most of us in Congress use Facebook to reach our
constituents in ways that were unimaginable 10 years ago, and
this is certainly a good thing.
But it also means that many of us can't give it up easily.
Many businesses have their only web presence on Facebook. And
for professions like journalism, people's jobs depend on
posting on the site.
And this ubiquity comes with a price. For all the good it
brings, Facebook can be a weapon for those like Russia and
Cambridge Analytica that seek to harm us and hack our
democracy.
Facebook made it too easy for a single person--in this
instance, Aleksandr Kogan--to get extensive personal
information about 87 million people. He sold this data to
Cambridge Analytica who used it to try to sway the 2016
Presidential election for the Trump campaign. And Facebook made
itself a powerful tool for things like voter suppression, in
part by opening its platform to app developers with little or
no oversight.
But it gets worse. The fact is no one knows how many people
have access to the Cambridge Analytica data, and no one knows
how many other Cambridge Analyticas are still out there.
Shutting down access to data to third parties isn't enough, in
my opinion. Facebook and many other companies are doing the
same thing: they are using people's personal information to do
highly targeted product and political advertising.
And Facebook is just the latest in a never-ending string of
companies that vacuum up our data but fail to keep it safe. And
this incident demonstrates yet again that our laws are not
working.
Making matters worse, Republicans here in Congress continue
to block or even repeal the few privacy protections we have. In
this era of nonstop data breaches, last year, Republicans
eliminated existing privacy and data security protections at
the FCC, and their justification was that those protections
were not needed because the Federal Trade Commission has
everything under control. Well, this latest disaster shows just
how wrong the Republicans are.
The FTC used every tool Republicans have been willing to
give it, and those tools weren't enough. And that is why
Facebook acted like so many other companies and reacted only
when it got bad press.
We all know this cycle by now: Our data is stolen. The
company looks the other way. Eventually, reporters find out,
publish a negative story, and the company apologizes. And
Congress then holds a hearing, and then nothing happens.
By not doing its job, this Republican-controlled Congress
has become complicit in this nonstop cycle of privacy by press
release. And this cycle must stop because the current system is
broken.
So I was happy to hear that Mr. Zuckerberg conceded that
his industry needs to be regulated, and I agree. We need
comprehensive privacy and data security legislation. We need
baseline protections that stretch from internet service
providers to data brokers to app developers and to anyone else
who makes a living off our data. We need to figure out how to
make sure these companies act responsibly even before the press
finds out.
But while securing our privacy is necessary, it is not
sufficient. We need to take steps immediately to secure our
democracy. We can't let what happened in 2016 happen again, and
to do that, we need to learn how Facebook was caught so flat-
footed in 2016. How was it so blind to what the Russians and
others were doing on its systems? Red flags were everywhere.
Why didn't anyone see them, or were they ignored?
So today's hearing is a good start. But we also need to
hold additional hearings where we hold accountable executives
from other tech companies, internet service providers, data
brokers, and anyone else that collects our information.
Now, Congresswoman Schakowsky from Illinois and I
introduced a bill last year that would require companies to
implement baseline data security standards, and I plan to work
with my colleagues to draft additional legislation.
But I have to say, Mr. Chairman, it is time for this
committee and this Congress to pass comprehensive legislation
to prevent incidents like this in the future. My great fear is
that we have this hearing today; there is a lot of press
attention--and, Mr. Zuckerberg, you know, appreciate you being
here once again, but if all we do is have a hearing and then
nothing happens, then that is not accomplishing anything.
And, you know, I know I sound very critical of the
Republicans and their leadership on this--on these privacy
issues, but I have just seen it over and over again that we
have the hearings and nothing happens. So excuse me for being
so pessimistic, Mr. Chairman, but that is where I am.
I yield back.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]
Prepared statement of Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr.
Thank you for being here today, Mr. Zuckerberg.
Facebook has become integral to our lives. We don't just
share pictures of our families. We use it to connect for
school, to organize events, and to watch baseball games.
Facebook has enabled everyday people to spur national
political movements. Most of us in Congress use Facebook to
reach our constituents in ways that were unimaginable 10 years
ago. This is a good thing.
But it also means that many of us can't give it up easily.
Many businesses have their only web presence on Facebook. For
professions like journalism, people's jobs depend on posting on
the site.
This ubiquity comes with a price. For all the good it
brings, Facebook can be a weapon for those like Russia and
Cambridge Analytica that seek to harm us and hack our
democracy.
Facebook made it too easy for a single person, in this
instance Aleksandr Kogan, to get extensive personal information
about 87 million people. Kogan then sold this data to Cambridge
Analytica who used it to try to sway the 2016 Presidential
election for the Trump Campaign. Facebook made itself a
powerful tool for things like voter suppression in part by
opening its platform to app developers with little or no
oversight.
But it gets worse. The fact is no one knows how many people
have access to the Cambridge Analytica data. And no one knows
how many other Cambridge Analyticas are still out there.
Shutting down access to data to third parties isn't enough.
Facebook and many other companies are doing the same thing.
They are using people's personal information to do highly
targeted product and political advertising.
And Facebook is just the latest in a never-ending string of
companies that vacuum up our data but fail to keep it safe.
This incident demonstrates yet again that our laws are not
working.
Making matters worse, Republicans here in Congress continue
to block or even repeal the few privacy protections we have. In
this era of nonstop data breaches, last year Republicans
eliminated existing privacy and data security protections at
the Federal Communications Commission.
Their justification: those protections were not needed
because the Federal Trade Commission has everything under
control. Well this latest disaster shows just how wrong they
are. The FTC used every tool Republicans have been willing to
give it and those tools weren't enough.
That's why Facebook acted like so many other companies and
reacted only when it got bad press. We all know the cycle by
now: our data is stolen and the company looks the other way;
eventually reporters find out, publish a negative story, and
the company apologizes. Congress then holds a hearing; and
then.nothing.
By not doing its job, this Republican-controlled Congress
has become complicit in this nonstop cycle of privacy by press
release.
This cycle must stop because the current system is broken.
I was happy to hear Mr. Zuckerberg concede that his
industry needs to be regulated. I agree.
We need comprehensive privacy and data security
legislation.
We need baseline protections that stretch from internet
service providers to data brokers to app developers and to
anyone else who makes a living off our data.
We need to figure out how to make sure these companies act
responsibly even before the press finds out.
But while securing our privacy is necessary, it's not
sufficient. We need to take steps immediately to secure our
democracy. We can't let what happened in 2016 happen again. To
do that, we need to learn how Facebook was caught so flatfooted
in 2016. How was it so blind to what the Russians and others
were doing on its systems? Red flags were everywhere-why didn't
anyone see them? Or were they ignored?
So today's hearing is a good start. But we also need to
hold additional hearings where we hold accountable executives
from other tech companies, internet service providers, data
brokers, and anyone else that collects our information.
Congresswoman Schakowsky and I introduced a bill last year
that would require companies to implement baseline data
security standards, and I plan to work with my colleagues to
draft additional legislation. It's time for this committee and
this Congress to pass comprehensive legislation to prevent
incidents like this in the future.
Mr. Walden. I think I thank the gentleman for his opening
comments.
With that, we now conclude with Member opening statements.
The Chair would like to remind Members that, pursuant to the
committee rules, all Members' opening statements will be made
part of the record.
Today we have Mr. Mark Zuckerberg, chairman and CEO of
Facebook, Incorporated, here to testify before the full Energy
and Commerce Committee. Mr. Zuckerberg will have the
opportunity to give a 5-minute opening statement followed by a
round of questioning from our Members.
So thank you for taking the time to be here, and you are
now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF MARK ZUCKERBERG, COFOUNDER, CHAIRMAN AND CEO,
FACEBOOK, INC.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Thank you.
Chairman Walden, Ranking Member Pallone, and members of the
committee, we face a number of important issues around privacy,
security, and democracy, and you will rightfully have some hard
questions for me to answer. Before I talk about the steps we
are taking to address them, I want to talk for a minute about
how we got there.
Facebook is an idealistic and optimistic company. For most
of our existence, we focused on all the good that connecting
people can bring. And as Facebook has grown, people everywhere
have gotten a powerful new tool for staying connected to the
people they care about most, for making their voices heard, and
for building community and businesses.
Just recently, we have seen the Me Too movement and the
March for Our Lives organized at least part on Facebook. After
Hurricane Harvey, people came together and raised more than $20
million for relief, and there are more than 70 million small
businesses around the world that use our tools to grow and
create jobs.
But it is clear now that we didn't do enough to prevent
these tools from being used for harm as well. And that goes for
fake news, foreign interference in elections, and hate speech,
as well as developers and data privacy. We didn't take a broad
enough view of our responsibility, and that was a big mistake.
It was my mistake, and I am sorry.
I started Facebook. I run it. And at the end of the day, I
am responsible for what happens here. So now we have to go
through every part of our relationship with people to make sure
that we are taking a broad enough view of our responsibility.
It is not enough to just connect people; we have to make
sure that those connections are positive. It is not enough to
just give people a voice; we need to make sure that that voice
isn't used to harm other people or spread misinformation.
And it is not enough to just give people control of their
information; we need to make sure that the developers that they
share it with protect their information too. Across the board,
we have a responsibility to not just give people tools but to
make sure that those tools are used for good.
It is going to take some time to work through all the
changes we need to make, but I am committed to getting this
right. And that includes the basic responsibility of protecting
people's information, which we failed to do with Cambridge
Analytica.
So here are a few key things that we are doing to address
this situation and make sure that this doesn't happen again.
First, we are getting to the bottom of exactly what Cambridge
Analytica did and telling everyone who may have been affected.
What we know now is that Cambridge Analytica improperly
obtained some information about millions of Facebook members by
buying it from an app developer that people had shared it with.
This information was generally information that people share
publicly on their profile pages, like their name and profile
picture and the list of pages that they follow.
When we first contacted Cambridge Analytica, they told us
that they had deleted the data. And then, about a month ago, we
heard a new report that suggested that this was not true. So
now we are working with governments in the U.S., the U.K., and
around the world to do a full audit of what they have done and
to make sure that they get rid of any data that they still
have.
Second, to make sure that no other app developers are out
there misusing data, we are now investigating every single app
that had access to a large amount of people's information on
Facebook in the past. And if we find someone that improperly
used data, we are going to ban them from our platform and tell
everyone affected.
Third, to prevent this from ever happening again, we are
making sure developers can't access as much information going
forward. The good news here is that we made some big changes to
our platform in 2014 that would prevent this specific instance
with Cambridge Analytica from happening again today.
There is more to do, and you can find more of the details
of the other steps we are taking in the written statement I
provided.
My top priority has always been our social mission of
connecting people, building community, and bringing the world
closer together. Advertisers and developers will never take
priority over that for as long as I am running Facebook.
I started Facebook when I was in college. We have come a
long way since then. We now serve more than 2 billion people
around the world, and every day people use our services to stay
connected with the people that matter to them most.
I believe deeply in what we are doing, and I know that,
when we address these challenges, we will look back and view
helping people connect and giving more people a voice as a
positive force in the world.
I realize the issues we are talking about today aren't just
issues for Facebook and our community; they are challenges for
all of us as Americans. Thank you for having me here today, and
I am ready to take your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Zuckerberg follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Walden. Thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg.
I will start out. When we go into the questioning phase, we
go back and forth, as we always do. Remember, it is 4 minutes
today so we can get to everyone.
Mr. Zuckerberg, you described Facebook as a company that
connects people and as a company that is idealistic and
optimistic. I have a few questions about what other types of
companies Facebook may be.
Facebook has created its own video series starring Tom
Brady that ran for six episodes and has over 50 million views.
That is twice the number of the viewers that watched the Oscars
last month. Also, Facebook has obtained exclusive broadcasting
rights for 25 major league baseball games this season. Is
Facebook a media company?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I consider us to be a technology company because the
primary thing that we do is have engineers who write code and
build products and services for other people. There are
certainly other things that we do too.
We do pay to help produce content. We build enterprise
software although I don't consider us an enterprise software
company. We build planes to help connect people, and I don't
consider ourselves to be an aerospace company.
But, overall, when people ask us if we are a media company,
what I hear is, do we have a responsibility for the content
that people share on Facebook? And I believe the answer to that
question is yes.
Mr. Walden. All right. Let me ask the next one. You can
send money to friends on Facebook Messenger using a debit card
or a PayPal account to, quote, ``split meals, pay rent, and
more,'' closed quote. People can also send money via Venmo or
their bank app. Is Facebook a financial institution?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Mr. Chairman, I do not consider ourselves
to be a financial institution although you are right that we do
provide tools for people to send money.
Mr. Walden. So you have mentioned several times that you
started Facebook in your dorm room, 2004. 15 years, 2 billion
users and several, unfortunately, breaches of trust later, is
Facebook today the same kind of company you started with a
Harvard.edu email address?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think we have evolved
quite a bit as a company. When I started it, I certainly didn't
think that we would be the ones building this broad of a
community around the world. I thought someone would do it. I
didn't think it was going to be us. So we have definitely
grown.
Mr. Walden. And you have recently said that you and
Facebook have not done a good job of explaining what Facebook
does. And so, back in 2012 and 2013, when a lot of this
scraping of user and friend data was happening, did it ever
cross your mind that you should be communicating more clearly
with users about how Facebook is monetizing their data?
I understand that Facebook does not sell user data, per se,
in the traditional sense. But it is also just as true that
Facebook's user data is probably the most valuable thing about
Facebook. In fact, it may be the only truly valuable thing
about Facebook.
Why wasn't explaining what Facebook does with users' data
higher priority for you as a cofounder and now as CEO?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Mr. Chairman, you are right that we don't
sell any data, and I would say that we do try to explain what
we do as time goes on. It is a broad system. You know, every
day, about 100 billion times a day, people come to one of our
products, whether it is Facebook or Messenger or Instagram or
WhatsApp, to put in a piece of content, whether it is a photo
that they want to share or a message they want to send someone,
and every time there is a control right there about who you
want to share it with.
Do you want to share it publicly to broadcast it out to
everyone? Do you want to share it with your friends, a specific
group of people? Do you want to message it to just one person
or a couple of people? That is the most important thing that we
do, and I think that in the product that is quite clear.
I do think that we can do a better job of explaining how
advertising works. There is a common misperception, as you say,
that is just reported--often keeps on being reported--that for
some reason we sell data.
I can't be clearer on this topic: We don't sell data. That
is now how advertising works. And I do think we could probably
be doing a clearer job explaining that, given the
misperceptions that are out there.
Mr. Walden. Given the situation, can you manage the issues
that are before you, or does the Congress need to intercede? I
am going to leave that because I am over my time. That and I
want to flag an issue that Vietnam Veterans of America have
raised too, and we will get back with your staff on that, about
some fake pages that are up.
But I want to stay on schedule. So, with that, I will yield
to Mr. Pallone for 4 minutes.
Mr. Pallone. Thank you.
Mr. Zuckerberg, you talked about how positive and
optimistic you are, and I am--I guess, I am sorry, because I am
not. I don't have much faith in corporate America, and I
certainly don't have much faith in their GOP allies here in
Congress.
I really look at everything that this committee does, or
most of what this committee does, in terms of the right to
know. In other words, I always fear that people, you know, that
go onto Facebook, they don't necessarily know what is happening
or what is going on with their data.
And so, to the extent that we could pass legislation--which
I think we need, and you said that we probably should have some
legislation--I want that legislation to give people the right
to know, to empower them, to, you know, provide more
transparency, I guess, is the best way to put it.
So I am looking at everything through that sort of lens. So
just let me ask you three quick questions, and I am going to
ask you to answer yes or no because of the time. Yes or no, is
Facebook limiting the amount or type of data Facebook itself
collects or uses?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes. We limit a lot of the
data that we collect and use.
Mr. Pallone. But, see, I don't see that in the
announcements you have made. Like, you have made all these
announcements the last few days about the changes you are going
to make, and I don't really see how those announcements or
changes limit the amount or type of data that Facebook collects
or uses in an effective way.
But let me go to the second one. Again, this is my concern
that users currently may not know or take affirmative action to
protect their own privacy. Yes or no, is Facebook changing any
user default settings to be more privacy protective?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes. In response to these
issues, we have changed a lot of the way that our platform
works so they way developers can't get access to as much
information.
Mr. Pallone. But, see, again, I don't see that in the
changes that you have proposed. I don't really see any way that
these users' default settings--or you are changing these user
default settings in a way that is going to be more privacy
protection--protected.
But let me go to the third one. Yes or no, will you commit
to changing all the user default settings to minimize to the
greatest extent possible the collection in user--in use of
users' data? Can you make that commitment?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we try to collect and give
people the ability to share----
Mr. Pallone. But I would like you to answer yes or no, if
you could. Will you make the commitment to change all the
user--to changing all the user default settings to minimize to
the greatest extent possible the collection and use of users'
data? I don't think that is hard for you to say yes to, unless
I am missing something.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, this is a complex issue that I
think deserves more than a one-word answer.
Mr. Pallone. Well, again, that is disappointing to me,
because I think you should make that commitment. And maybe what
we could do is follow up with you on this, if possible, if that
is OK. We can do that follow up?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Pallone. All right. Now, you said yesterday that each
of us owns the content that we put on Facebook and that
Facebook gives some control to consumers over their content,
but we know about the problems with Cambridge Analytica.
I know you changed your rules in 2014 and again this week,
but you still allow third parties to have access to personal
data. How can consumers have control over their data when
Facebook doesn't have control over the data itself? That is my
concern. Last question.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, what we allow with our
developer platform is for people to choose to sign into other
apps and bring their data with them. That is something that a
lot of people want to be able to do.
The reason why we built the developer platform in the first
place was because we thought it would be great if more
experiences that people had could be more social. So, if you
could have a calendar that showed your friends' birthdays, if
you could have an address book that had pictures of your
friends in it, if you could have a map that showed your
friends' addresses on it.
In order to do that, you need to be able to sign into an
app, bring some of your data and some of your friends' data,
and that is what we built. Now, since then, we have recognized
that that can be used for abuse too, so we have limited it so
now people can only bring their data when they go to an app.
But that is something that a lot of people do on a day-to-
day basis is sign into apps and websites with Facebook, and
that is something that we are going----
Mr. Walden. We have to move onto our next question.
Mr. Pallone. Yes, I know. I still think that there is not
enough--people aren't empowered enough to really make those
decisions in a positive way.
Mr. Walden. The Chair now recognizes former chairman of the
committee Mr. Barton of Texas for 4 minutes.
Mr. Barton. Well, thank you.
And thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being here. People need
to know that you are here voluntarily. You are not here because
you have been subpoenaed, so we appreciate that.
Sitting behind you, I have a gentleman that used to be
counsel for the committee, Mr. Jim Barnett. And if he is
affiliated with Facebook, you have got a good one. If he is
not, he has just got a great seat. I don't know what it is.
I am going to read you a question that I was asked--I got
this through Facebook. And I have got dozens like this. So my
first question: ``Please ask Mr. Zuckerberg, why is Facebook
censoring conservative bloggers, such as Diamond and Silk?
Facebook called them unsafe to the community. That is
ludicrous. They hold conservative views. That isn't unsafe.''
What is your response to that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, in that specific case, our
team made an enforcement error, and we have already gotten in
touch with them to reverse it.
Mr. Barton. Well, Facebook does tremendous good. When I met
you in my office 8 years ago--you don't remember that--but I
have got a picture of you when you had curly hair, and Facebook
had 500 million users. Now it has got over 2 billion. That is a
success story in anybody's book.
It is such an integral part of certainly young Americans'
lives that you need to work with Congress and the community to
ensure that it is a neutral, safe, and, to the largest extent
possible, private platform. Do you agree with that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I do agree that we should work
to give people the fullest free expression that is possible.
That is--when I talk about giving people a voice, that is what
I care about.
Mr. Barton. OK. Let's talk about children. Children can get
a Facebook account of their own, I believe, starting at age 13.
Is that not correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, that is correct.
Mr. Barton. OK. Is there any reason that we couldn't have
just a no-data-sharing policy period until you are 18? Just, if
you are a child with your own Facebook account, until you reach
the age of 18, you know, it is, you know, you can't share
anything? It is their data, their--it doesn't go anywhere.
Nobody gets to scrape it. Nobody gets to access it. It is
absolutely totally private for children. What is wrong with
that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we have a number of measures
in place to protect minors specifically. We make it so that
adults can't contact minors who they aren't already friends
with. We make it so that certain content that may be
inappropriate for minors we don't show.
The reality that we see is that teens often do want to
share their opinions publicly, and that is a service that----
Mr. Barton. Then we let them opt in to do that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, we do.
Mr. Barton. But don't--you know, unless they specifically
allow it, then don't allow it. That is my point.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, every time that someone
chooses to share something on Facebook, you go to the app,
right there, it says, ``Who do you want to share with?'' When
you sign up for a Facebook account, it starts off sharing with
just your friends. If you want to share it publicly, you have
to specifically go and change that setting to be sharing
publicly. And every time----
Mr. Barton. I am about out of time. I actually use
Facebook. And, you know, I know if you take the time, you can
go to your privacy and click on that and you can go to your
settings and click on that. You can pretty well set up your
Facebook account to be almost totally private, but you have to
really work at it.
And my time has expired. Hopefully we can do some questions
in writing as a followup.
Mr. Walden. Absolutely.
Mr. Barton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walden. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from
Illinois, Mr. Rush, for 4 minutes for questions.
Mr. Rush. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, welcome.
In the 1960s, our Government, acting through the FBI and
local police, maliciously tricked individuals and organizations
into participating in something called COINTELPRO, which was a
counterintelligence program where they tracked and shared
information about civil rights activists, their political,
social, civic, even religious affiliations, and I personally
was a victim of COINTELPRO.
Your organization, your methodology, in my opinion, is
similar. You are truncating the basic rights of the American
promise of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness by the
wholesale invasion and manipulation of their right to privacy.
Mr. Zuckerberg, what is the difference between Facebook's
methodology and the methodology of the American political
pariah J. Edgar Hoover?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, this is an important question
because I think people often ask what the difference is between
surveillance and what we do. And I think that the difference is
extremely clear, which is that, on Facebook, you have control
over your information. The content that you share, you put
there. You can take it down at any time.
The information that we collect you can choose to have us
not collect. You can delete any of it. And, of course, you can
leave Facebook if you want. I know of no surveillance
organization that gives people the option to delete the data
that they have or even know what they are collecting.
Mr. Rush. Mr. Zuckerberg, you should be commended that
Facebook has grown so big, so fast. It is no longer the company
that you started in your dorm room. Instead, it is one of the
great American success stories.
That much influence comes with enormous social
responsibility on which you have failed to act and to protect
and to consider. Shouldn't Facebook, by default, protect users'
information? Why is the onus on the user to opt in to privacy
and security settings?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, as I said, every time that a
person chooses to share something on Facebook, they are
proactively going to the service and choosing that they want to
share a photo, write a message to someone. And every time,
there is a control right there, not buried in settings
somewhere, but right there when they are posting about who they
want to share it with.
Mr. Rush. Mr. Zuckerberg, I only have a few more seconds.
In November 2017, ProPublica reported that Facebook was still
allowing housing advertisements to systemically exclude
advertisements to specific racial groups, an explicitly
prohibited practice. This is just one example where Facebook
has allowed race to improperly play a role.
What has Facebook done, and what are you going to do to
ensure that your targeted advertisements and other components
of your platform are in compliance with Federal laws, such as
the Civil Rights Act of 1968?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, since we learned about that,
we removed the option for advertisers to exclude ethnic groups
from targeting.
Mr. Rush. When did you do that?
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired. We need to go
now to the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Upton, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Upton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And welcome to the committee.
A number of times in the last day or two you have indicated
that, in fact, you are now open to some type of regulation. And
we know, of course, that you are the dominant social media
platform without any true competitor, in all frankness, and you
have hundreds, if not thousands, of folks that are--would be
required to help navigate any type of regulatory environment.
Some would argue that a more regulatory environment might
ultimately stifle new platforms and innovators some might
describe as desperately needed competition, i.e., regulatory
complexity helps protect those folks like you. It could create
a harmful barrier to entry for some startups, particularly ones
that might want to compete with you.
So should we policymakers up here be more focused on the
needs of startups over large incumbents, and what kind of
policy regulation--regulatory environment would you want
instead of managing maybe a Fortune 500 company if you were
launching a startup to take on the big guy?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, thank you. And let me say a
couple of things on this. First, to your point about
competition, the average American uses about eight different
apps to communicate and stay connected to people. So there is a
lot of competition that we feel every day, and that is an
important force that we definitely feel in running the company.
Second, on your point about regulation, the internet is
growing in importance around the world in peoples' lives, and I
think that it is inevitable that there will need to be some
regulation. So my position is not that there should be no
regulation, but I also think that you have to be careful about
what regulation you put in place for a lot of the reasons that
you are saying.
I think a lot of times regulation, by definition, puts in
place rules that a company that is larger, that has resources
like ours, can easily comply with but that might be more
difficult for a smaller startup to comply with.
So I think that these are all things that need to be
thought through very carefully when thinking through what rules
we want to put in place.
Mr. Upton. To follow up on a question that Mr. Barton asked
about Silk and Diamond, I don't know whether you know about
this particular case. I have a former State rep who is running
for State senate. He is the former Michigan lottery
commissioner, so he is a guy of fairly good political
prominence.
He announced for State senate just in the last week, and he
had what I thought was a rather positive announcement, and I
will read to you precisely what it was: ``I am proud to
announce my candidacy for State Senate. Lansing needs
conservative west Michigan values. And as our next State
senator, I will work to strengthen our economy, limit
Government, lower our auto insurance rates, balance the budget,
stop sanctuary cities, pay down Government debt, be a pro-life,
pro-Second Amendment lawmaker,'' end.
It was rejected, and the response from you all was: It
wasn't approved because it doesn't follow our advertising
policies; we don't allow ads that contain shocking,
disrespectful, or sensational content, including ads that
depict violence or threats of violence.
I am not sure where the threat was based on what he tried
to post.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not sure either. I am not
familiar with that specific case. It is quite possible that we
made a mistake, and we will follow up afterwards on that.
Mr. Upton. OK.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Overall, we have--by the end of this year,
we will have about 20,000 people at the company who work on
security and content review-related issues, but there is a lot
of content flowing through the systems and a lot of reports,
and unfortunately, we don't always get these things right when
people report it to us.
Mr. Upton. Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentlelady from California, Ms.
Eshoo, for 4 minutes.
Ms. Eshoo. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, Mr. Zuckerberg.
First, I believe that our democratic institutions are
undergoing a stress test in our country. And I believe that
American companies owe something to America. I think the damage
done to our democracy relative to Facebook and its platform
being weaponized are incalculable.
Enabling the cynical manipulation of American citizens for
the purpose of influencing an election is deeply offensive, and
it is very dangerous. Putting our private information on offer
without concern for possible misuses, I think, is simply
irresponsible.
I invited my constituents, going into the weekend, to
participate in this hearing today by submitting what they want
to ask you, and so my questions are theirs.
And, Mr. Chairman, I would like unanimous consent to place
all of their questions in the record.
Mr. Walden. Without objection.
[The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
Ms. Eshoo. So these are a series of just yes-or-no
questions. Do you think you have a moral responsibility to run
a platform that protects our democracy, yes or no?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, yes.
Ms. Eshoo. Have users of Facebook who were caught up in the
Cambridge Analytica debacle been notified?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, we were starting to notify people this
week. We started Monday, I believe.
Ms. Eshoo. Will Facebook offer to all of its users a
blanket opt-in to share their privacy data with any third-party
users?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, yes, that is how our
platform works. You have to opt in to sign into any app before
you use it.
Ms. Eshoo. Well, let me just add that it is a minefield in
order to do that. And you have to make it transparent, clear,
in pedestrian language just once: ``This is what we will do
with your data. Do you want this to happen or not?'' So I think
that this is being blurred. I think you know what I mean by it.
Are you aware of other third-party information mishandlings
that have not been disclosed?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, no, although we are
currently going through the process of investigating every
single app----
Ms. Eshoo. So you are not sure?
Mr. Zuckerberg [continuing]. That had access to a large
amount of data.
Ms. Eshoo. What does that mean?
Mr. Zuckerberg. It means that we are going to look into
every app that had a large amount of access to data in the past
before we lock down the platform.
Ms. Eshoo. You are not aware?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I imagine that, because there are tens of
thousands of apps, we will find some that have suspicious
activity, and when we find them----
Ms. Eshoo. All right. I only have 4 minutes.
Was your data included in the data sold to the malicious
third parties, your personal data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Ms. Eshoo. It was? Are you willing to change your business
model in the interest of protecting individual privacy?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, we have made and are
continuing to make changes to reduce the amount of data that--
--
Ms. Eshoo. No. Are you willing to change your business
model in the interest of protecting individual privacy?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I am not sure what that
means.
Ms. Eshoo. Well, I will follow up with you on it.
When did Facebook learn that Cambridge Analytica's research
project was actually for targeted psychographic political
campaign work?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, it might be useful to
clarify what actually happened here. A developer who is a
researcher----
Ms. Eshoo. Well, no. I don't have time for a long answer,
though. When did Facebook learn that? And when you learned it,
did you contact their CEO immediately, and if not, why not?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, yes. When we learned in 2015
that a Cambridge University researcher associated with the
academic institution that built an app that people chose to
share their data with----
Ms. Eshoo. We know what happened with them, but I am asking
you.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, I am answering your question.
Ms. Eshoo. Right.
Mr. Zuckerberg. When we learned about that, we
immediately----
Ms. Eshoo. So, in 2015, you learned about it?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Ms. Eshoo. And you spoke to their CEO immediately?
Mr. Zuckerberg. We shut down the app. We demanded----
Ms. Eshoo. Did you speak to their CEO immediately?
Mr. Zuckerberg. We got in touch with them, and we asked
them to--we demanded that they delete any of the data that they
had, and their chief data officer told us that they had.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time has expired.
Ms. Eshoo. Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from
Illinois, Mr. Shimkus, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Shimkus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you for being here, Mr. Zuckerberg.
Two things: First of all, I want to thank Facebook. You
streamlined our congressional baseball game last year. We have
got the managers here. And I was told that, because of that, we
raised an additional $100,000 for DC literacy and feeding kids
and stuff, so that is----
The other thing is, I usually put my stuff up on the TV. I
don't want to do it very much because it is my dad, and he
would be mad if he went international like you are. And he has
been on Facebook for a long time. He is 88. It has been good
for connecting with kids and grandkids.
I just got my mother involved on an iPad and--because she
can't handle a keyboard. And so--and I did this last week. So,
in the swirl of activity, I still think there is a positive
benefit for my parents to be engaged on this platform. So--but
there are issues that are being raised today, and so I am going
to go into a couple of those.
Facebook made, developed access to user and friend data
back--and your main update was in 2014. So the question is,
what triggered that update?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, this is an important question
to clarify. So, in 2007, we launched the platform in order to
make it so that people could sign into other apps, bring some
of their information and some of their friends' information to
have social experiences.
This created a lot of innovative experiences, new games,
companies like Zynga. There were companies that you are
familiar with like Netflix and Spotify had integrations with
this that allowed social experiences in their apps. But,
unfortunately, there were also a number of apps that used this
for abuse, to collect people's data.
Mr. Shimkus. So, if I could interrupt, you identified that
there was possibly social scraping going on?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, there was abuse. And that is why, in
2014, we took the step of fundamentally changing how the
platform works. So now, when you sign into an app, you can
bring your information, and if a friend has also signed into
the app, then the app can know that you are friends so you can
have a social experience in that app. But when you sign into an
app, it now no longer brings information from other people.
Mr. Shimkus. Yes. Let me go to your announcement of audits.
Who is going to conduct an audit when we are talking about are
there other Cambridge Analyticas out there?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. Good question.
So we are going to start by doing an investigation
internally of every single app that had access to a large
amount of information before we lock down the platform. If we
detect any suspicious activity at all, we are working with
third-party auditors. I imagine there will have to be a number
of them because there are a lot of apps, and they will conduct
the audit for us.
Mr. Shimkus. Yes. I think we would hope that you would
bring in a third party to help us----
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Shimkus [continuing]. Clarify and have more confidence.
The last question I have is, in yesterday's hearing, you
talked a little about Facebook tracking and different
scenarios, including logged-off users. Can you please clarify
as to how that works and how does tracking work across
different devices?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. Thank you for giving me
the opportunity to clarify that.
So one of the questions is, what information do we track
and why about people who are not signed into Facebook? We track
certain information for security reasons and for ads reasons.
For security, it is to make sure that people who are not signed
into Facebook can't scrape people's public information.
You can--even when you are not signed in, you can look up
the information that people have chosen to make public on their
page because they wanted to share it with everyone, so there is
no reason why you should have to be logged in.
But, nonetheless, we don't want someone to be able to go
through and download every single public piece of information.
Even if someone chose to make it public, that doesn't mean that
it is good to allow someone to aggregate it. So, even if
someone isn't logged in, we track certain information, like how
many pages they are accessing, as a security measure.
The second thing that we do is we provide an ad network
that third-party websites and apps can run in order to help
them make money. And those ads, similar to what Google does and
what the rest of the industry does, it is not limited to people
who are just on Facebook. So, for the purposes of that, we may
also collect information to make it so that those ads are more
relevant and work better on those websites.
There is a control that for that second class of
information or an ad targeting anyone can turn off, has
complete control over it. For obvious reasons, we do not allow
people to turn off the measurement that we do around security.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
We now turn to the gentleman from New York, Mr. Engel, for
4 minutes.
Mr. Engel. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, you have roots in my district, the 16th
Congressional District of New York. I know that you attended
Ardsley High School and grew up in Westchester County. As you
know, Westchester has a lot to offer, and I hope that you might
commit to returning to Westchester County perhaps to do a forum
on this and some other things. I hope you would consider that.
We will be in touch with you. But I know that Ardsley High
School is very proud of you.
You mentioned yesterday that Facebook was deceived by
Aleksandr Kogan when he sold the user information to Cambridge
Analytica. Does Facebook therefore plan to sue Aleksandr Kogan,
Cambridge University, or Cambridge Analytica perhaps for
unauthorized access to computer networks, exceeding access to
computer networks, or breach of contract, and why or why not?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, it is something that we are
looking into. We already took action by banning him from the
platform, and we are going to be doing a full audit to make
sure that he gets rid of all the data that he has as well.
To your point about Cambridge University, what we found now
is that there was a whole program associated with Cambridge
University where a number of researchers, not just Aleksandr
Kogan--although to our current knowledge, he is the only one
who sold the data to Cambridge Analytica.
There were a number of other researchers who were building
similar apps. So we do need to understand whether there is
something bad going on at Cambridge University overall that
will require a stronger action from us.
Mr. Engel. You mentioned before in your remarks hate
speech. We have seen the scale and reach of extremism balloon
in the last decade, partially because of the expansion of
social platforms, whether it is a white supremacist rally in
Charlottesville that turned violent or to ethnic cleansing in
Burma that resulted in the second largest refugee crisis in the
world.
Are you aware of any foreign or domestic terrorist
organizations, hate groups, criminal networks, or other
extremist networks that have scraped Facebook user data? And if
they have and if they do it in the future, how would you go
about getting it back or deleting it?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we are not aware of any
specific groups like that that have engaged in this. We are, as
I have said, conducting a full investigation of any apps that
had access to a large amount of data, and if we find anything
suspicious, we will tell everyone affected.
We do not allow hate groups on Facebook overall. So, if
there is a group that their primary purpose or a large part of
what they do is spreading hate, we will ban them from the
platform overall.
Mr. Engel. So do you adjust your algorithms to prevent
individuals interested in violence or nefarious activities from
being connected with other like-minded individuals?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Sorry. Could you repeat that?
Mr. Engel. Do you adjust your algorithms to prevent
individuals interested in violence or bad activities from being
connected with other like-minded individuals?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes. That is certainly an
important thing that we need to do.
Mr. Engel. OK. And, finally, let me say this: Many of us
are very angry about Russian influence in the 2016 Presidential
elections and Russian influence over our Presidential
elections.
Does Facebook have the ability to detect when a foreign
entity is attempting to buy a political ad, and is that process
automated? Do you have procedures in place to inform key
Government players when a foreign entity is attempting to buy a
political ad or when it might be taking other steps to
interfere in an election?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes. This is an extremely
important area. After we were slow to identify the Russian
information operations in 2016, this has become a top priority
for our company to prevent that from ever happening again,
especially this year in 2018, which is such an important
election year with the U.S. midterms, but also major elections
in India, Brazil, Mexico, Hungary, Pakistan, a number of other
places.
So we are doing a number of things that I am happy to talk
about or follow up with afterwards around deploying new AI
tools that can proactively catch fake accounts that Russia or
others might create to spread misinformation.
And one thing that I will end on here, just because I know
we are running low on time, is, since the 2016 election, there
have been a number of significant elections, including the
French Presidential election, the German election, and last
year the U.S. Senate Alabama special election.
And the AI tools that we deployed in those elections were
able to proactively take down tens of thousands of fake
accounts that may have been trying to do the activity that you
are talking about. So our tools are getting better.
For as long as Russia has people who are employed who are
trying to perpetrate this kind of interference, it will be hard
for us to guarantee that we are going to fully stop everything.
But it is an arms race, and I think that we are making ground
and are doing better and better and are confident about how we
are going to be able to do that.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Engel. Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The Chair recognizes the chairman of the Health
Subcommittee, Dr. Burgess of Texas, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Burgess. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thanks to our witness for being here today.
Mr. Chairman, I have a number of articles that I am going
to ask unanimous consent to insert into the record. I know I
won't have time to get to all of my questions.
Mr. Walden. Without objection.
[The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
Mr. Walden. And we put the slide up that you requested.
Mr. Burgess. And so I am going to be submitting some
questions for the record that are referencing these articles:
One is, ``Friended: How the Obama Campaign Connected With Young
Voters,'' by Michael Scherer; ``We Already Know How to Protect
Ourselves from Facebook''--and I hope I get this name right--
Zeynep Tufekci; and ``It's Time to Break Up Facebook'' by Eric
Wilson, who, in the interest of full disclosure, is a former
staffer.
Mr. Walden. Without objection.
Mr. Burgess. And I will be referencing those articles in
some written questions.
I consulted my technology guru, Scott Adams, in the form of
Dilbert. Going back 21 years ago, when you took the shrink wrap
off of a piece of software that you bought, you were
automatically agreeing to be bound by the terms and conditions.
So we have gone a long way from taking the shrink wrap off of
an app.
But I don't know that things have changed all that much. I
guess, does Facebook have a position that you recommend for
elements of a company's terms and conditions that you encourage
consumers to look at before they click on the acceptance?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes. I think that it is really
important for this service that people understand what they are
doing and signing up for and how this service works. We have
laid out all of what we do in the terms of service because that
is what is legally required of us. But----
Mr. Burgess. Let me just ask you, because we are going to
run short on time, have you laid out for people what it would
be indicative of a good actor versus a less-than-good actor in
someone who has developed one of these applications?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes. We have a developer terms
of service, which is separate from the normal terms of service
for individuals using the service.
Mr. Burgess. Is the average consumer able to determine what
elements would indicate poor or weak consumer protections just
by their evaluation of the terms and conditions? Do you think
that is possible?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not sure what you mean by
that.
Mr. Burgess. Well, can the average person, the average
layperson look at the terms and conditions and make the
evaluation, is this a strong enough protection for me to enter
into this arrangement?
Look, I am as bad as anyone else. I see an app. I want it.
I download it. I breeze through the stuff. Just take me to the
good stuff in the app. But if a consumer wanted to know, could
they know?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I think you are raising an
important point, which is that I think if someone wanted to
know, they could. But I think that a lot of people probably
just accept terms of service without taking the time to read
through it.
I view our responsibility not as just legally complying
with laying it out and getting that consent but actually trying
to make sure that people understand what is happening
throughout the product.
That is why every single time that you share something on
Facebook or one of our services, right there is a control in
line where you control who you want to share with. Because I
don't just think that this is about a terms of service. It is
contextual. You want to present people with the information
about what they might be doing and give them the relevant
controls in line at the time that they are making those
decisions, not just have it be in the background sometime or
upfront make a one-time decision.
Mr. Burgess. Yes. Let me move onto something else. Mr.
Pallone brought up the issue of he wanted to see more
regulation. We actually passed a bill through this committee
last Congress dealing with data breach notification, not so
much for Facebook but for the credit card breaches, a good
bill.
Many of the friends on the other side of the dais voted
against it, but it was Mrs. Blackburn's bill, and I think it is
one we should consider again in light of what is going on here.
But you also signed a consent decree back in 2011. And, you
know, when I read through that consent decree, it is pretty
explicit. And there is a significant fine of $40,000 per
violation per day, and if you have got 2 billion users, you can
see how those fines would mount up pretty quickly.
So, in the course of your audit, are you extrapolating data
for the people at the Federal Trade Commission for the terms
and conditions of the consent decree?
Mr. Walden. That is time.
Mr. Zuckerberg. That is--I am not sure what you mean by
extrapolating data.
Mr. Burgess. Well, you have referenced there are audits
that are ongoing. Are you making that information from those
audits available to our friends at the agency, at the Federal
Trade Commission?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, as you know, the FTC is
investigating this, and we are certainly going to be complying
with them and working with them on that investigation.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green,
for 4 minutes.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And welcome to our committee.
I want to follow up on what my friend from north Texas
talked about on his cartoon. Next month, the general data
protection regulation, the GDPR, goes into effect in the
European Union. The GDPR is pretty prescriptive on how
companies treat consumer data, and it makes it clear that
consumers need to be in control of their own data.
Mr. Zuckerberg, Facebook has committed to abiding to these
consumer protections in Europe, and you face large penalties if
they don't. In recent days, you have said that Facebook intends
to make the same settings available to users everywhere, not
only in Europe.
Did I understand correctly that Facebook would not only
make the same settings available but that it will make the same
protections available to Americans that they will to Europeans?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. All the same controls
will be available around the world.
Mr. Green. And you commit today that Facebook will extend
the same protections to Americans that European users will
receive under the GDPR?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. We believe that everyone
around the world deserves good privacy controls. We have had a
lot of these controls in place for years. The GDPR requires us
to do a few more things, and we are going to extend that to the
world.
Mr. Green. There are many requirements in the GDPR, so I am
just going to focus on a few of them. The GDPR requires that
the company's request for user consent to be requested in a
clear and concise way, using language that is understandable,
and be clearly distinguishable from other pieces of information
including terms and conditions. How will that requirement be
implemented in the United States?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we are going to put at the top
of everyone's app when they sign in a tool that walks people
through the settings and gives people the choices and asks them
to make decisions on how they want their settings set.
Mr. Green. One of the GDPR's requirements is data
portability. Users must be able to permit it to request a full
copy of their information and be able to share that information
with any companies that they want to.
I know Facebook allows users in the U.S. to download their
Facebook data. Does Facebook plan to use the currently existing
ability of users to download their Facebook data as the means
to comply with the GDPR's data portability requirement?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I think we may be updating it
a little bit. But as you say, we have had the ability to
download your information for years now, and people have the
ability to see everything that they have in Facebook, to take
that out, delete their account, and move their data anywhere
that they want.
Mr. Green. Does that download file include all the
information Facebook has collected about any given individual?
In other words, if I download my Facebook information, is there
other information accessible to you within Facebook that I
wouldn't see on that document, such as browsing history or
other inferences that Facebook has drawn from users for
advertising purposes?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I believe all of your
information is in that file.
Mr. Green. OK. GDPR also gives users the right to object to
the processing of their personal data for marketing purposes,
which, according to Facebook's website, includes custom
microtargeting audiences for advertising. Will the same right
to object be available to Facebook users in the United States,
and how will that be implemented?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not sure how we are going
to implement that yet. Let me follow up with you on that.
Mr. Green. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And, again, as a small--Facebook conducted a couple of
years ago an effort in our district in Houston for our small
businesses, and it was one of the most successful outreach I
have seen. So I appreciate that outreach to helping small
businesses use Facebook to market their products.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walden. I thank the gentleman. The Chair now recognizes
the gentlelady from Tennessee, Mrs. Blackburn for 4 minutes.
Mrs. Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Zuckerberg, I
tell you, I think your cozy community, as Dr. Mark Jameson
recently said is beginning to look a whole lot like the Truman
Show where people's identities and relationships are made
available to people that they don't know and then that data is
crunched and it is used, and they are fully unaware of this.
So I have got to ask you I think what we are getting to
here is who owns the virtual you? Who owns your presence
online? And I would like for you to comment. Who do you think
owns an individual's presence online? Who owns their virtual
you? Is it you or is it them?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I believe that everyone owns
their own content online, and that is the first line of our
terms of service, if you read, it says that.
Mrs. Blackburn. And where does privacy rank as a corporate
value for Facebook?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, giving people control of
their information and how they want to set their privacy is
foundational to the whole service. It is not just kind of an
add-on feature, it is something we have to comply with. The
reality is if you have a photo--if you just think about this in
your day-to-day life----
Mrs. Blackburn. I can't let you filibuster right now. A
constituent of mine who is a benefits manager brought up a
great question in a meeting at her company last week, and she
said, you know, healthcare you have got HIPPA, you have got
Gramm-Leach-Bliley, you have got the Fair Credit Reporting Act,
these are all compliance documents for privacy for other
sectors of the industry. She was stunned, stunned that there
are no privacy documents that apply to you all.
And we have heard people say that, you know, and you have
said you are considering maybe you need more regulation. What
we think is we need for you to look at new legislation, and you
are hearing there will be more bills brought out in the next
few weeks, but we have had a bill, the BROWSER Act, and I am
certain that you are familiar with this. It is bipartisan, and
I thank Mr. Lipinski, and Mr. Lance, and Mr. Flores for their
good work on this legislation. We have had it for over a year,
and certainly we have been working on this issue for about 4
years.
And what this would do is have one regulator, one set of
rules for the entire ecosystem. And will you commit to working
with us to pass privacy legislation, to pass the BROWSER Act,
will you commit to doing that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I am not directly familiar
with the details of what you just said, but I certainly think
that regulation in this area----
Mrs. Blackburn. OK. Let's get familiar with the details. As
you have heard, we need some rules and regulations. This is
only 13 pages. The BROWSER Act is 13 pages, so you can easily
become familiar with it, and we would appreciate your help.
And I have got to tell you, as Mr. Green just said, as you
look at the EU privacy policies, you are already doing much of
that. If you are doing everything you claim because you will
have to allow consumers to control their data to change, to
erase it, you have to give consumers opt-in. So that mothers
know--my constituents in Tennessee want to know that they have
a right to privacy, and we would hope that that is important to
you all.
I want to move on and ask you something else, and please
get back to me once you have reviewed the BROWSER Act, I would
appreciate hearing from you.
We have done one hearing on algorithms. I chair the
Communications and Technology Subcommittee here. We are getting
ready to do a second one on algorithms. We are going to do one
next week on prioritization, so I would like to ask you: Do you
subjectively manipulate your algorithms to prioritize or censor
speech?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, we don't think about what we
are doing as censoring speech. I think that there are types of
content like terrorism that I think that we all agree we do not
want to have on our service, so we build systems that can
identify those and can remove that content, and we are very
proud of that. We are----
Mrs. Blackburn. Let me tell you something right now.
Diamond and Silk is not terrorism.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time has expired. The Chair
recognizes the gentlelady from Colorado, Ms. DeGette, for 4
minutes.
Ms. DeGette. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, we appreciate your contrition and we
appreciate your commitment to resolving these past problems.
From my perspective, though, and my colleagues' on both sides
of the aisle in this committee, we are interested in looking
forward to preventing this kind of activity not just with
Facebook but with others in your industry, and as has been
noted by many people already, we have been relying on self-
regulation in your industry, for the most part. We are trying
to explore what we can do to prevent further breaches.
So I want to ask you a whole series of fairly quick
questions. They should only require yes or no answers. Mr.
Zuckerberg, at the end of 2017 Facebook had a total shareholder
equity of just over $74 billion. Is that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Sorry, Congresswoman, I am not familiar----
Ms. DeGette. At the end of 2017 Facebook had a total
shareholder equity of over $74 billion. Correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Of over that?
Ms. DeGette. That is correct. You are the CEO.
Mr. Zuckerberg. The market cap of the company was greater
than that, yes.
Ms. DeGette. Greater than 74. Last year, Facebook earned a
profit of $15.9 billion on $40.7 billion in revenue, correct?
Yes or no.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Ms. DeGette. Now, since the revelations surrounding
Cambridge Analytica, Facebook has not noticed a significant
increase in users deactivating their accounts. Is that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Ms. DeGette. Now, since the revelations surrounding
Cambridge Analytica, Facebook has also not noticed a decrease
in user interaction on Facebook, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, that is correct.
Ms. DeGette. OK. Now, I want to take a minute to talk about
some of the civil and regulatory penalties that we have been
seeing. I am aware of two class-action lawsuits that Facebook
has settled relating to privacy concerns. Lane versus Facebook
was settled in 2010. That case resulted in no money being
awarded to Facebook users. Is that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I am not familiar with the
details of that.
Ms. DeGette. You are the CEO of the company, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Ms. DeGette. Now, this major lawsuit was settled. Do you
know about the lawsuit?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I get briefed on these.
Ms. DeGette. Do you know about this lawsuit, Lane versus
Facebook, yes or no?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I am not familiar with the details.
Ms. DeGette. OK. If you can supplement. I will just tell
you there was this lawsuit, and the users got nothing.
In another case, Fraley versus Facebook, it resulted in a
2013 settlement fund of $20 million being established with $15
individual payment payouts to Facebook users beginning in 2016.
Is that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I am not familiar----
Ms. DeGette. You don't know about that one, either. OK.
Well, I will tell you what happened.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I discussed that with our team, but I don't
remember the exact details.
Ms. DeGette. OK. Now as the result of a 2011 FTC
investigation into Facebook's privacy policy, do you know about
that one?
Mr. Zuckerberg. The FTC investigation?
Ms. DeGette. Uh-huh.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Ms. DeGette. OK. You entered into a consent decree with the
FTC, which carried no financial penalty for Facebook. Is that
correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I don't remember if we had a
financial penalty.
Ms. DeGette. You are the CEO of the company. You entered
into a consent decree, and you don't remember if you had a
financial----
Mr. Zuckerberg. I remember the consent decree. The consent
decree is extremely important to how we operate the company.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes. I would think a financial penalty
would be, too.
OK. Well, the reason you probably don't remember it is
because the FTC doesn't have the authority to issue financial
penalties for first-time violations. The reason I am asking
these questions, sir, is because we continue to have these
abuses and these data breaches, but at the same time it doesn't
seem like future activities are prevented. And so, I think one
of the things that we need to look at in the future, as we work
with you and others in the industry, is putting really robust
penalties in place in case of improper actions. And that is why
I asked these questions.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time has expired. The Chair
recognizes the gentleman from Louisiana, the whip of the House,
Mr. Scalise, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Scalise. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and, Mr. Zuckerberg,
I appreciate you coming here. I know, as some of my other
colleagues mentioned, you came here voluntarily, and we
appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion, because
clearly what your company has been able to do has
revolutionized the way that people can connect, and there is a
tremendous benefit to our country.
Now it is a worldwide platform, and it has helped create a
shortage of computer programmers, so as a former computer
programmer, I think we would both agree we need to encourage
more people to go into the computer sciences because our
country is a world leader thanks to your company and so many
others, but it obviously raises questions about privacy, and
data, and how the data is shared and what is a user's
expectation of where that data goes. So I want to ask a few
questions.
First, would you agree we need more computer programmers
and people to go into that field.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes.
Mr. Scalise. That is a public service announcement we just
made, so I appreciate you joining me in that.
Mr. Shimkus' question, it was really a follow-up to a
question yesterday that you weren't able to answer, but it was
dealing with how Facebook tracks users especially after they
log off. And you had said in relation to Congressman Shimkus'
question that there is data mining, but it goes on for security
purposes.
So my question would be, Is that data that is mined for
security purposes also used to sell as part of the business
model?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I believe that we collect
different data for those, but I can follow up on the details of
that.
Mr. Scalise. All right. If you can follow up, I would
appreciate that.
Getting into this new realm of content review, I know some
of the people that work for Facebook--Campbell Brown said, for
example, this is changing our relationship with publishers and
emphasizing something that Facebook has never done before. It
is having a point of view. And you mentioned the Diamond and
Silk example where you, I think, described it as a mistake.
Were the people who made that mistake held accountable in any
way?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, let me follow up with you on
that. That situation developed while I was here preparing to
testify, so I do not know the details on that.
Mr. Scalise. OK. I do want to ask you about a study that
was done dealing with the algorithm that Facebook uses to
describe what is fed to people, through the news feed, and what
they found was after this new algorithm was implemented that
there was a tremendous bias against conservative news and
content and a favorable bias towards liberal content, and if
you can look at that, that shows a 16-point disparity, which is
concerning.
I would imagine you are not going to want to share the
algorithm itself with us. I would encourage you if you wanted
to do that, but who develops the algorithm? I wrote algorithms
before, and you can determine whether or not you want to write
an algorithm to sort data, to compartmentalize data, but you
can also put a bias in if that is the directive.
Was there a directive to put a bias in, and first, are you
aware of this bias that many people have looked at, and
analyzed, and seen?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, that is a really important
question. There is absolutely no directive in any of the
changes that we make to have a bias on anything that we do. To
the contrary, our goal is to be a platform for all ideas. And--
--
Mr. Scalise. And I know we are almost out of time, so if
you can go back and look and determine if there was a bias
whoever developed that software. You have 20,000 people that
work on some of this data analysis, if you can look and see if
there is a bias and let us know if there is and what you are
doing about it, because that is disturbing when you see that
kind of disparity.
Finally, there has been a lot of talk about Cambridge and
what they have done in the last campaign. In 2008 and 2012,
there was also a lot of this done. One of the lead digital
heads of the Obama campaign said recently, ``Facebook was
surprised we were able to suck out the whole social graph, but
they didn't stop us once they realized that was what we were
doing. They came to the office in the days following the
election recruiting and were very candid that they allowed us
to do things they wouldn't have allowed someone else to do
because they were on our side.''
That is a direct quote from one of the heads of the Obama
digital team. What would she mean by ``they''--Facebook--``were
on our side''?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we didn't allow the Obama
campaign to do anything that any developer on the platform
wouldn't have otherwise been able to do.
Mr. Scalise. So she was making an inaccurate statement in
your point of view?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Scalise. I appreciate the comments, and I look forward
to those answers. I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. Walden. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from
Pennsylvania, Mr. Doyle, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Zuckerberg,
welcome. Facebook uses some of the most advanced data
processing techniques and technologies on the planet, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we pride ourselves on doing
good technical work.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. And you use these technologies to
flag spam, identify offensive content, and track user activity,
right?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Among other things.
Mr. Doyle. But 2015, when the Guardian first reported on
Cambridge Analytica using Facebook user data, was that the
first time Facebook learned about these allegations?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, in 2015 when we heard that the
developer on our platform Aleksandr Kogan----
Mr. Doyle. Was that the first time you heard about it, when
it was reported by the Guardian?
Mr. Zuckerberg. That the Guardian reported to Cambridge
Analytica?
Mr. Doyle. When the Guardian made the report, was that the
first time you heard about it?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. So do you routinely learn about these
violations through the press?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, sometimes we do. I generally
think that----
Mr. Doyle. Let me ask you this. You had the capability to
audit developers' use of Facebook user data and do more to
prevent these abuses. But the problem at Facebook not only
persisted, it proliferated. In fact, relative to other types of
problems you had on your platform, it seems as though you
turned a blind eye to this, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I disagree with that
assessment. I do think that going forward we need to take a
more proactive view of policing what the developers do. Looking
back, we have had an app review process. We investigate----
Mr. Doyle. But, Mr. Zuckerberg, it seems like you were more
concerned with attracting and retaining developers on your
platform than you were with ensuring the security of Facebook's
user data.
Let me switch gears. Your company is subject to a 20-year
consent decree with the FTC since 2011, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we have a consent decree, yes.
Mr. Doyle. And that decree emerged out of a number of
practices that Facebook engaged in that the FTC deemed to be
unfair and deceptive. One such practice was making Facebook
users' private information public without sufficient notice or
consent, claiming that Facebook certified the security and
integrity of certain apps when, in fact, it did not, and
enabling developers to access about a user and their friends.
Is that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not familiar with all of
the things that the FTC said, although I am very familiar with
the consent order itself.
Mr. Doyle. But these were part of the FTC consent decree.
So I think--I am just concerned that, despite this consent
decree, Facebook allowed developers access to an unknown number
of user profiles on Facebook for years--potentially hundreds of
million, potentially more, and not only allowed but partnered
with individuals and app developers such as Aleksandr Kogan,
who turned around and sold that data on the open market and to
companies like Cambridge Analytica.
Mr. Zuckerberg, you have said that you planned to audit
tens of thousands of developers that may have improperly
harvested Facebook user data. You also said that you planned to
give all Facebook users access to some user controls that will
be made available in the EU under the GDPR.
But it strikes me that there is a real trust gap here. This
developer data issue is just one example, but why should we
trust you to follow through on these promises when you have
demonstrated repeatedly that you are willing to flout both your
own internal policies and Government oversight when the need
suits you?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, respectfully, I disagree with
that characterization. We have had a review process for apps
for years. We have had reviewed tens of thousands of apps a
year and taken action against a number of them. Our process was
not enough to catch a developer----
Mr. Doyle. I see my time is almost over. I just want to
say, Mr. Chairman, to my mind the only way we are going to
close this trust gap is through legislation that creates and
empowers a sufficiently resourced expert oversight agency with
rulemaking authority to protect the digital privacy and ensure
that companies protect our users' data.
With that, I yield back.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired. The Chair
recognizes the chairman of the Subcommittee on Digital Commerce
and Consumer Protection, Mr. Latta of Ohio, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Latta. Well, thank you Mr. Chairman and, Mr.
Zuckerberg, thanks very much for being with us today.
First question I have is can you tell the Facebook users
that the Russians and the Chinese have not used the same
methods as other third parties to scrape the entire social
network for their gain?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we have not seen that
activity.
Mr. Latta. None at all?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Not that I am aware of.
Mr. Latta. OK. Let me ask this question, you know, it has
been going on when you made your opening statement in regards
to what you would like to see done with the company and steps
moving forward. There has been a couple questions, you know,
about you are going to be investigating the apps. How many apps
are there out there that you would have to investigate?
Mr. Zuckerberg. There are tens of thousands of apps that
had access to a large amount of people's information before we
locked down the platform in 2014. So we are going to do an
investigation that first involves looking at their patterns of
API access and what those companies were doing and then if we
find anything suspicious then we are going to bring in third-
party auditors to go through their technical and physical
systems to understand what they did, and if we find that they
misused any data then we will ban them from our platform, make
sure they delete the data and tell everyone affected.
Mr. Latta. Just to follow up on that then, how long would
it take then to investigate each of those apps once you are
doing that because, again, when you are talking about tens of
thousands and you are going through that entire process then
how long would it take to go through each one of those apps?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. It is going to take many
months to do this full process.
Mr. Latta. OK.
Mr. Zuckerberg. And it is going to be an expensive process
with a lot of auditors, but we think that this is the right
thing to do at this point. You know, before we had thought that
when developers told us that they weren't going to sell data
that that was--that that was a good representation, but one of
the big lessons that we have learned here is that clearly we
cannot just take the developers' word for it, we need to go in
and enforce that.
Mr. Latta. OK. We are talking about audits. There has been
some questions about this on the audits. In 2011 Facebook
signed did sign that consent order with the Federal Trade
Commission for the privacy violations. Part of that consent
order requires Facebook to submit third-party privacy audits to
the FTC every 2 years.
First, are you aware of the audits? And, second, why didn't
the audits disclose or find these issues with the developers'
access to users' data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. I am aware of the audits
that we do. We do audits every other year. They are ongoing.
The audits have not found material issues with our privacy
programs in place at the company. I think the broader question
here is we have had this FTC consent decree, but we take a
broader view of what our responsibility for people's privacy
is, and our view is that this--what a developer did that they
represented to us that they were going to use the data in a
certain way and then in their own systems went out and sold it
we do not believe is a violation of the consent decree, but it
is clearly a breach of people's trust, and the standard that we
hold ourselves to is not just following the laws that are in
place, but we also--we just want to take a broader view of this
in protecting people's information.
Mr. Latta. Let me we are just about out of time here. Are
you aware that Facebook did provide the auditors all the
information it requested when doing the FTC audits?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Sorry, can you repeat that?
Mr. Latta. Yes. Did Facebook provide the auditors all the
information requested when preparing the audit for the FTC?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I believe we do provide the
audits to the FTC.
Mr. Latta. OK. So all the information is provided. And were
you ever personally asked to provide information or feedback in
these audits to the FTC?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, not personally, although I am
briefed on all of the audits by our team.
Mr. Latta. OK. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired, and I
yield back.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman yields back. The Chair recognizes
the gentlelady from Illinois, Ms. Schakowsky, for 4 minutes.
Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, you have
a long history of growth and success, but you also have a long
list of apologies in 2003. It started at Harvard. ``I apologize
for any harm done as a result of my neglect.'' 2006, ``We
really messed this one up.'' 2007, ``We simply did a bad job. I
apologize for it.'' 2010, ``Sometimes we move too fast.'' 2011,
``I am the first to admit that we have made a bunch of
mistakes.'' 2017, this is in connection with the Russian
manipulation of the election and the data that came from
Facebook initially. ``I ask for forgiveness. I will work to do
better.'' So it seems to me from this history that self-
regulation, this has proved to me that self-regulation simply
does not work.
I have a bill, The Secure and Protect Americans Data Act
that I hope you will take a look at, very simple bill about
setting standards for how you have to make sure that the data
is protected, deadlines on when you have to release that
information to the public. Certainly it ought to go to the FTC,
as well.
But in response to the questions about the apps and the
investigation that you are going to do you said you don't
necessarily know how long. Have you set any deadline for that
because we know, as my colleagues said, that there are tens of
thousands, there is actually been nine million apps. How long
do we have to wait for that kind of investigation?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, we expect it to take many
months.
Ms. Schakowsky. Years?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I hope not.
Ms. Schakowsky. OK. I want to ask you, yesterday following
up on your response to Senator Baldwin's question you said
yesterday that Kogan also sold data to other firms. You named
Eunoia Technologies. How many are there total, and what are
their names? Can we get that, and how many are there total?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, we can follow up with you to
make sure you get all that information.
Ms. Schakowsky. Yes, but order of magnitude.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I don't believe it was a large number, but
as we complete the audits we will know more.
Ms. Schakowsky. What is a large number?
Mr. Zuckerberg. A handful.
Ms. Schakowsky. Has Facebook tried to get those firms to
delete user data and its derivatives?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congresswoman. In 2015 when we first
learned about it we immediately demanded that the app developer
and the firms that he sold it to delete the data, and they all
represented to us that they had. It wasn't until about a month
ago that new reports surfaced that suggested that they hadn't,
which is what has kicked us off needing to now go do this full
audit and investigation and investigate all these other apps
that have come up.
Ms. Schakowsky. Were derivatives deleted?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, we need to complete the
investigation and audit before I can confirm that.
Ms. Schakowsky. You are looking into it?
Mr. Zuckerberg. What they represented to us is that they
have, but we now need to get into their systems and confirm
that before I want to stand up here confidently and say what
they have done.
Ms. Schakowsky. So Mr. Green asked about the general data
protection regulation on May 25th that is going to go into
effect by the EU, and your response was--let me ask, is your
response that exactly the protections that are guaranteed not
the--what did you say? Yes, not to conduce the controls but all
the rights that are guaranteed under the general data
protection regulations will be applied to Americans, as well?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, the GDPR has a bunch of
different important pieces. One is around offering controls
over every use of people's----
Ms. Schakowsky. Right, that is one. Uh-huh.
Mr. Zuckerberg. That we are doing. The second is around
pushing for affirmative consent and putting a control in front
of people that walks people through their choices.
Ms. Schakowsky. Exactly.
Mr. Zuckerberg. We are going to do that too.
The second, although that might be different depending on
the laws in specific countries and different places, but we are
going to put a tool at the top of everyone's app that walks
them through their settings and helps them understand what is--
--
Ms. Schakowsky. It sounds like it will not be exact. And
let me say, as we look at----
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time----
Ms. Schakowsky [continuing]. The distribution of
information that who is going to protect us from Facebook is
also a question.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentlelady from Washington State,
the Conference chairman.
Mrs. McMorris Rodgers. Thank you.
And thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for joining us.
Todayis clearly timely. There is a number of extremely
important questions Americans have about Facebook, including
questions about safety and security of their data, about the
process by which their data is made available to third parties,
about what Facebook is doing to protect consumer privacy as we
move forward.
But one of the issues that is concerning me and I would
like to dig a little deeper into is how Facebook treats content
on its platform.
So, Mr. Zuckerberg, given the extensive reach of Facebook
and its widespread use as a tool of public expression, do you
think Facebook has a unique responsibility to ensure that it
has clear standards regarding the censorship of content on its
platform? And do you think Facebook adequately and clearly
defines what these standards are for its users?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, yes, I feel like we have a
very important responsibility to outline what the content
policies are and the community standards are.
This is one of the areas that, frankly, I am worried we are
not doing a good enough job at right now, especially because,
as an American-based company where about 90 percent of the
people in our community are outside of the U.S., where there
are different social norms and different cultures, it is not
clear to me that our current situation of how we define
community standards is going to be effective for articulating
that around the world.
So we are looking at different ways to evolve that, and I
think that this is one of the more important things that we
will do.
Mrs. McMorris Rodgers. OK.
And even focusing on content for here in America, I would
like to shift gears just a little bit to talk about Facebook's
recent changes to its news feed algorithm.
Your head of news partnerships recently said that Facebook
is, quote, ``taking a step to define what quality news looks
like and give that a boost so that overall there is less
competition from news.''
Can you tell me what she means by ``less competition from
news''? And, also, how does Facebook objectively determine what
is acceptable news and what safeguards exist to ensure that,
say, religious or conservative content is treated fairly?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congresswoman. I am not sure
specifically what that person was referring to, but I can walk
you through what the algorithm change was, if that is useful.
Mrs. McMorris Rodgers. Well, maybe I will just go on to my
other questions then.
There is an issue of content discrimination, and it is not
a problem unique to Facebook. There is a number of high-profile
examples of edge providers engaging in blocking and censoring
religious and conservative political content. In November, FCC
Chairman Pai even said that edge providers routinely block or
discriminate against content they don't like.
This is obviously a serious allegation. How would you
respond to such an allegation? And what is Facebook doing to
ensure that its users are being treated fairly and objectively
by content reviewers?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, the principle that we are a
platform for all ideas is something that I care very deeply
about. I am worried about bias, and we take a number of steps
to make sure that none of the changes that we make are targeted
in any kind of biased way. And I would be happy to follow up
with you and go into more detail on that, because I agree that
this is a serious issue.
Mrs. McMorris Rodgers. Over Easter, a Catholic university's
ad with a picture of the historic San Damiano Cross was
rejected by Facebook. Though Facebook addressed the error
within days, that it happened at all is deeply disturbing.
Could you tell me what was so shocking, sensational, or
excessively violent about the ad to cause it to be initially
censored? Given that your company has since said it did not
violate terms of service, how can users know that their content
is being viewed and judged accordingly to objective standards?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, it sounds like we made a
mistake there, and I apologize for that. And, unfortunately,
with the amount of content in our systems and the current
systems that we have in place to review, we make a relatively
small percent of mistakes in content review but that is too
many, and this is an area where we need to improve.
What I will say is that I wouldn't extrapolate from a few
examples to assuming that the overall system is biased. I get
how people can look at that and draw that conclusion, but I
don't think that that reflects the way that we are trying to
build the system or what we have seen.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's----
Mrs. McMorris Rodgers. Thank you. And I just--this is an
important issue in building trust.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I agree.
Mrs. McMorris Rodgers. And that is going to be important.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr.
Butterfield, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Butterfield. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for your testimony here
today.
Mr. Zuckerberg, you have stated that your goal with
Facebook is to build strong communities, and certainly that
sounds good. You have stated here today on the record that you
did not live up to the privacy expectations, and I appreciate
that.
But this committee--and you must know this--this committee
is counting on you to right a wrong, and I hope you get it. In
my opinion, Facebook is here to stay, and so you have an
obligation to protect the data that you collect and the data
that you use. And Congress has the power to regulate your
industry, and we have the power to penalize misconduct.
But I want to go in a different direction today, sir. You
and your team certainly know how I feel about racial diversity
in corporate America. And Sheryl Sandberg and I talk about that
all of the time.
Let me ask you this--and the Congressional Black Caucus has
been very focused on holding your industry accountable--not
just Facebook, your industry--accountable for increasing
African-American inclusion at all levels of the industry.
And I know you have a number of diversity initiatives. In
2017, you have increased your black representation from 2 to 3
percent. While this is a small increase, it is better than
none.
But this does not nearly meet the definition of building a
racially diverse community. CEO leadership--and I have found
this to be absolutely true--CEO leadership on issues of
diversity is the only way that the technology industry will
change.
So will you commit, sir, to convene, personally convene, a
meeting of CEOs in your sector--many of them, all of them
perhaps, are your friends--and to do this very quickly to
develop a strategy to increase racial diversity in the
technology industry?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I think that that is a good
idea, and we should follow up on it.
From the conversations that I have with my fellow leaders
in the tech industry, I know that this is something that we all
understand that the whole industry is behind on, and Facebook
is certainly a big part of that issue.
And we care about this not just from the justice angle but
because we know that having diverse viewpoints is what will
help us serve our community better, which is ultimately what we
are here to do. And I think we know that the industry is behind
on this and want to----
Mr. Butterfield. Well, we have talked with you over the
years about this, and while there has been some marginal
improvement, we must do better than we have done.
Recently, you appointed an African American, our friend Ken
Chenault, to our board. And, of course, Erskine Bowles is
already on your board, who is also a friend. But we have to
concentrate more on board membership for African Americans and
also minorities at the entry level within your company.
I was looking at your website a few minutes ago, and it
looks like you list five individuals as leadership in your
company, but none of them is African American. I was just
looking at it. Not only you and Sheryl, but David, Mike, and
Chris, that is your leadership team, and this does not reflect
America.
Can you improve the numbers on your leadership team to be
more diverse?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, this is an issue that we are
focused on. We have a broader leadership than just five people.
I mean----
Mr. Butterfield. It is not on your website.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I understand that.
Mr. Butterfield. We can do better than that, Mr.
Zuckerberg. We certainly can.
Do you plan to add an African American to your leadership
in the foreseeable future? And will you commit that you will
continue to work with us, the Congressional Black Caucus, to
increase diversity within your company that you are so proud
of?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we will certainly work with
you. This is an important issue.
Mr. Butterfield. We also find that companies' failure to
retain black employees contributes to their low presence at
technology companies. And there is little transparency in
retention numbers.
So will you commit to providing numbers on your retention--
that is the big word, ``retention''--of your employees
disaggregated by race in your diversity update starting this
year? Can we get that data? That is the starting point.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we try to include a lot of
important information in the diversity updates. I will go
discuss that with my team after I get back from this hearing.
Mr. Butterfield. I am out of time, sir. I will take this up
with your team in another setting. We will be out there in a
few weeks.
Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair now recognizes now the chairman of the Oversight
and Investigations Subcommittee, the gentleman from
Mississippi, Mr. Harper, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Harper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being here. And we don't
lose sight of the fact that you are a great American success
story. It is a part of everyone's life and business, sometimes
maybe too often. But I thank you for taking the time to be
here.
And our concern is to make sure that it is fair. We worry,
because we are looking at possible Government regulation here,
certainly this self-governing, which has had some issues, and
how you factor that. And, you know, we are trying to keep up
with the algorithm changes on how you determine the
prioritization of the news feeds, and you look at, well, it
needs to be trustworthy and reliable and relevant. Well, who is
going to determine that? That also has an impact. And even
though you say you don't want the bias, it is dependent upon
who is setting what those standards are in that.
And so I want to ask you a couple of questions, if I may.
And this is a quote from Paul Grewal, Facebook's VP and general
counsel. He said, ``Like all app developers, Mr. Aleksandr
Kogan requested and gained access to information from people
after they chose to download his app.''
Now, under Facebook policy in 2013, if Cambridge Analytica
had developed the This is Your Digital Life app, they would
have had access to the same data they purchased from Mr. Kogan.
Would that be correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, that is correct. A different
developer could have built that out.
Mr. Harper. OK.
Now, according to PolitiFact.com--and this is a quote--
``The Obama campaign and Cambridge Analytica both gained access
to huge amounts of information about Facebook users and their
friends, and in neither case did the friends of app users
consent,'' close quote.
This data that Cambridge Analytica acquired was used to
target voters with political messages, much as the same type of
data was used by the Obama campaign to target voters in 2012.
Would that be correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, the big difference between
these cases is that, in the Kogan case, people signed into that
app expecting to share the data with Kogan, and then he turned
around and, in violation of our policies and in violation of
people's expectations, sold it to a third-party firm, to
Cambridge Analytica in this case.
Mr. Harper. Sure.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I think that we were very clear about how
the platform worked at the time, that anyone could sign into an
app, and they would be able to bring their information, if they
wanted, and some information from their friends. People had
control over that. So, if you wanted, you could turn off the
ability to sign into apps or turn off the ability for your
friends to be able to bring your information. The platform
worked the way that we had designed it at the time at the time.
I think we now know that we should have a more restrictive
platform, where people cannot also bring information from their
friends and can only bring their own information. But that is
the way that the system worked at the time.
Mr. Harper. And whether in violation of the agreement or
not, you agree that users have an expectation that their
information would be protected and remain private and not be
sold. And so that is something--the reason that we are here
today.
And I can certainly understand the general public's outrage
if they are concerned regarding the way Cambridge Analytica
required their information. But if people are outraged because
they used that for political reasons, would that be
hypocritical? Shouldn't they be equally outraged that the Obama
campaign used the data of Facebook users without their consent
in 2012?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, what I think people are
rightfully very upset about is that an app developer that
people had shared data with sold it to someone else, and,
frankly, we didn't do enough to prevent that or understand it
soon enough.
Mr. Harper. Thank you.
Mr. Zuckerberg. And now we have to go through and put in
place systems that prevent that from happening again and make
sure that we have sufficient controls in place in our
ecosystem, so, that way, developers can't abuse people's data.
Mr. Harper. Thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg.
My time has expired. I yield back.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman yields back the balance of his
time.
The gentlelady from California, Ms. Matsui, is recognized
for 4 minutes.
Ms. Matsui. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And welcome, Mr. Zuckerberg. Thank you very much here.
You know, I was just thinking about Facebook and how you
developed your platform, first from a social platform amongst
friends and colleagues and joining a community. And a lot of
that was based upon trust, because you knew your friends,
right? But that evolved into this business platform, and one of
the pillars still was trust. And I think everyone here would
agree that trust is in short supply here, and that is why we
are here today.
Now, you have constantly maintained that consumers own the
data they provided to Facebook and should have control over it.
And I appreciate that, and I just want to understand more about
what that means.
To me, if you own something, you ought to have some say
about how and when it is used, but, to be clear, I don't just
mean pictures, email addresses, Facebook groups, or pages. I
understand the data and the information consumers provided to
Facebook can be and perhaps is used by algorithms to form
assumptions and inferences about users to better target ads to
the individuals.
Now, do you believe that consumers actually own their data
even when that data has been supplemented by a data broker,
assumptions algorithms have made about that user, or otherwise?
And this is kind of the question that Mrs. Blackburn has
come up with, our own comprehensive profile, which is kind of
our virtual self.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I believe that people own
all of their own content.
Where this gets complicated is, let's say I take a photo
and I share it with you. Now, is that my photo, or is it your
photo? I would take the position that it is our photo, which is
why we make it so that I can bring that photo to another app if
I want but you can't. But----
Ms. Matsui. Well, once it gets to the data broker, though--
so there are certain algorithms and certain assumptions made.
What happens after that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Sorry, can you clarify that?
Ms. Matsui. Well, what I mean is that, if you supplement
this data, you know, you say you are owning it, but you
supplement this when other data brokers, you know, use their
other algorithms to supplement this and make their own
assumptions, then what happens there? Because that is, to me,
somebody else is taking that over. How can you say that we own
that data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, all the data that you put
in, all the content that you share on Facebook is yours. You
control how it is used. You can remove it at any time. You can
get rid of your account and get rid of all of it at once. You
can get rid of specific things.
Ms. Matsui. But you can't claw it back once it gets out
there, right? I mean, that is really--we might own our own
data, but once it is used in advertising, we lose control over
it. Is that not right?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I disagree with that,
because one core tenet of our advertising system is that we
don't sell data to advertisers. Advertisers don't get access to
your data.
There is a core misunderstanding about how that system
works, which is that--let's say, if you are a shop and you are
selling muffins, right, you might want to target people in a
specific town who might be interested in baking or some
demographic. But we don't send that information to you; we just
show the message to the right people.
And that is a really important, I think, common
misunderstanding of how this system works.
Ms. Matsui. Yes, I understand that, but Facebook sells ads
based, at least in part, on data users provide to Facebook.
That is right. And the more data that Facebook collects, it
allows you to better target ads to users or classes of users.
So, even if Facebook doesn't earn money from selling data,
doesn't Facebook earn money from advertising based on that
data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congresswoman, we run ads. The
business model is running ads. And we use the data that people
put into the system in order to make the ads more relevant,
which also makes them more valuable. But what we hear from
people is that, if they are going to see ads, they want them to
be good and relevant.
Ms. Matsui. But we are not controlling that data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. No, you have complete control over that.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time has expired.
As previously agreed, we will now take a 5-minute recess.
And committee members and our witness need to plan to be back
in about 5 minutes.
We stand in recess.
[Recess.]
Mr. Walden. We will call the Energy and Commerce Committee
back to order and recognize the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr.
Lance, for 4 minutes for purposes of questions.
Mr. Lance. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, you are here today because you are the face
of Facebook. And you have come here voluntarily. And our
questions are based upon our concern about what has occurred
and how to move forward.
I am sure you have concluded, based upon what we have
asked, that we are deeply offended by censoring of content
inappropriately by Facebook. Examples have been raised--a Roman
Catholic university, a State Senate candidate in Michigan. I
would be offended if this censoring were occurring on the left
as well as the right, and I want you to know that.
And do you take from what we have indicated so far that, in
a bipartisan fashion, Congress is offended by inappropriate
censoring of content?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes. This is extremely
important. And I think the point that you have raised is
particularly important, that we have heard today a number of
examples of where we may have made content review mistakes on
conservative content, but I can assure you that there are a lot
of folks who think that we make content moderation or content
review mistakes of liberal content as well.
Mr. Lance. Fair enough. My point is that we don't favor
censoring in any way, so long as it doesn't involve hate speech
or violence or terrorism. And, of course, the examples today
indicate quite the contrary, number one.
Number two, Congresswoman Blackburn has mentioned her
legislation. I am a cosponsor of the BROWSER legislation. I
commend it to your attention, to the attention of your company.
It is for the entire ecosystem. It is for ISPs and edge
providers; it is not just for one or the other. It is an opt-in
system, similar to the system that exists in Europe.
Might I respectfully request of you, Mr. Zuckerberg, that
you and your company review the BROWSER legislation? And I
would like your support for that legislation after your review
of it.
Mr. Zuckerberg. We will review it and get back to you.
Mr. Lance. Thank you very much.
Your COO, Sheryl Sandberg, last week appeared on the
``Today'' program, and she admitted the possibility that
additional breaches in personal information could be discovered
by the current audits. Quote, ``We are doing an investigation.
We are going to do the audits. And, yes, we think it is
possible. That is why we are doing the audits.''
And then the COO went on to say, ``Facebook cared about
privacy all along, but I think we got the balance wrong.''
Do you agree with the statement of your COO?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman, I do.
We were trying to balance two equities: on the one hand,
making it so that people had data portability, the ability to
bring their data to another app, in order to have new
experiences in other places, which I think is a value that we
all care about. On the other hand, we also need to balance
making sure that everyone's information is protected. And I
think that we didn't get that balance right up front.
Mr. Lance. Thank you. I certainly concur with the statement
of the COO, as affirmed by you today, that you got the balance
wrong.
And then, regarding Cambridge Analytica, the fact that
300,000 individuals or so gave consent but that certainly
didn't mean they gave consent to 87 million friends, do you
believe that that action violated your consent agreement with
the Federal Trade Commission?
Mr. Zuckerberg. We do not believe it did. But, regardless,
we take a broader view of what our responsibility is to protect
people's privacy. And if a developer who people gave their
information to, in this case Aleksandr Kogan, then goes and, in
violation of his agreement with us, sells the data to Cambridge
Analytica, that is a big issue. And I think people have a right
to be very upset--I am upset that that happened. And we need to
make sure that we put in place the systems to prevent that from
happening again.
Mr. Lance. Thank you. I think it may have violated the
agreement with the Federal Trade Commission, and I am sure that
will be determined in the future.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walden. I thank the gentleman from New Jersey.
I recognize the gentlelady from Florida, Ms. Castor, for 4
minutes.
Ms. Castor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome, Mr. Zuckerberg.
For all of the benefits that Facebook has provided in
building communities and connecting families, I think a devil's
bargain has been struck. And, in the end, Americans do not like
to be manipulated. They do not like to be spied on. We don't
like it when someone is outside of our home watching. We don't
like it when someone is following us around the neighborhood
or, even worse, following our kids or stalking our children.
Facebook now has evolved to a place where you are tracking
everyone. You are collecting data on just about everybody.
Yes, we understand the Facebook users that proactively sign
in are part of that platform, but you are following Facebook
users even after they log off of that platform and application,
and you are collecting personal information on people who do
not even have Facebook accounts. Isn't that right?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I believe----
Ms. Castor. Yes or no?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I am not sure that--I don't
think that that is what we are tracking.
Ms. Castor. No, you are collecting--you have already
acknowledged that you are doing that for security purposes and
commercial purposes. So you are collecting data outside of
Facebook. When someone goes to a website and it has the
Facebook ``like'' or ``share,'' that data is being collected by
Facebook, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman----
Ms. Castor. Yes or no?
Mr. Zuckerberg [continuing]. That is right, that we
understand, in order to show which of your friends liked a----
Ms. Castor. Yes. So for people that don't even have
Facebook--I don't think that the average American really
understands that today, something that fundamental, and that
you are tracking everyone's online activities, their searches.
You can track what people buy, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman----
Ms. Castor. You are collecting that data, what people
purchase online, yes or no?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I actually--if they share it with us. But,
Congresswoman, overall----
Ms. Castor. Because it has a ``share'' button, so it is
gathering--Facebook has the application--in fact, you patented
applications to do just that. Isn't that correct? To collect
that data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I don't think any of those
buttons share transaction data.
But, broadly, I disagree with the characterization----
Ms. Castor. But they track you. You are collecting medical
data, correct, on people that are on the internet, whether they
are Facebook users or not? Right?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, yes, we collect some data
for security purposes and----
Ms. Castor. And you watch where we go. Senator Durbin had a
funny question yesterday about where you are staying, and you
didn't want to share that. But Facebook also gathers that data
about where we travel. Isn't that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, everyone has control over
how that works.
Ms. Castor. I am going to get to that, but, yes, you are--
would you just acknowledge that, yes, Facebook is--that is the
business you are in, gathering data and aggregating that data?
Correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I disagree with that
characterization.
Ms. Castor. Are you saying you do not gather data on where
people travel based upon their internet and the ways they sign
in and things like that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, the primary way that
Facebook works is that people choose to share data, and they
share content----
Ms. Castor. The primary way, but the other way that
Facebook gathers data is you buy data from data brokers outside
of the platform, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, we just announced 2 weeks
ago that we were going to stop interacting with data brokers,
even though that is an industry norm to make it so that the
advertising can be more relevant----
Ms. Castor. But I think, in the end, I think what--see, it
is practically impossible these days to remain untracked in
America, for all the benefits Facebook has brought and the
internet. And that is not part of the bargain.
And current laws have not evolved, and the Congress has not
adopted laws to address digital surveillance. And Congress
should act. And I do not believe that the controls, the opaque
agreement, consent agreements--the settings are an adequate
substitute for fundamental privacy protections for consumers.
Now----
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time----
Ms. Castor. Thank you. I will yield back my time----
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady----
Ms. Castor [continuing]. And let that stand. And I would
like to ask unanimous consent that I put my constituents'
questions in the record for----
Mr. Walden. Without objection.
[The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
Ms. Castor. Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from
Kentucky, Mr. Guthrie, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Guthrie. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thanks for being here.
When I first got into public office, the internet was
really kicking off, and I had a lot of people complain about
ads, just the inconvenience of ads, trying to get through in
the cumbersome in the internet.
I remember telling someone one time--being from Kentucky, a
basketball fan, I said, there is nothing I hate worse than the
4-minute timeout, the TV timeout. It ruins the flow of the game
and everything. But because of the 4-minute timeout, I get to
watch the game for free. So that is something I am willing to
accept to watch for free.
What you are not really willing to accept is that your data
is just out there and that it is being used but it is being
used in the right way.
And it is funny, because I was going to ask this question
anyway. I was planning a family trip to Florida, and I searched
a town in Florida, and all of a sudden I started getting ads
for a brand of hotel that I typically stay in, at a great
hotel, at the price available to the public, because it was on
the internet, that I was willing to pay and stay there. And so
I thought it was actually convenient. Instead of getting just
an ad to someplace I will never go, I got an ad specifically to
a place I was looking to go, so I thought that was convenient.
And it wasn't Facebook, although my wife used Facebook to
message my mother-in-law this weekend for where we are meeting
up. So it is very valuable that we get to do that for free
because your business model relies on consumer-driven data.
This wasn't Facebook; it was a search engine, but they used
consumer-driven data to target an ad to me.
So you are not unique in Silicon Valley or in this internet
world in doing this type of targeted ads, are you?
Mr. Zuckerberg. No, Congressman. You are right. Ad-based
business models have been a common way that people have been
able to offer free services for a long time. And our social
mission of trying to help connect everyone in the world relies
on having a service that can be affordable for everyone, that
everyone can use. And that is why the ads business model is in
service of the social mission we have. And, you know, I think
sometimes that gets lost, but I think that that is a really
important point.
Mr. Guthrie. But you are different, in that, instead of
getting just--when I am watching the Hilltoppers on basketball,
the person advertising to me doesn't know anything about me. I
am just watching the ad. So there is no data, no agreement, and
no risk, I guess, there. But with you, there is consumer-driven
data.
But if we were to greatly reduce or stop--or just greatly
reduce through legislation the use of consumer-driven data for
targeting ads, what do you think that would do to the internet?
And when I say ``internet,'' I mean everything, not just
Facebook.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, it would make the ads
less relevant. So----
Mr. Guthrie. If you had less revenue, what would that do
to----
Mr. Zuckerberg. And, yes, it would reduce--it would have a
number of effects.
For people using the services, it would make the ads less
relevant to them. For businesses, like the small businesses
that use advertising, it would make advertising more expensive,
because now they would have to pay more to reach more people
inefficiently, because targeting helps small businesses be able
to afford and reach people as effectively as big companies have
typically had the ability to do for a long time.
It would affect our revenue some amount too, but I think
there are a couple of points here that are lost. One is that we
already give people the control to not use that data and ads if
they want. Most people don't do that. I think part of the
reason for that is that people get that if they are going to
see ads that they want them to be relevant.
But the other thing is that a lot of what makes the ads
work or what makes the business good is just that people are
very engaged with Facebook. We have more than a billion people
who spend almost an hour a day across all our services.
Mr. Guthrie. OK. I have 30 seconds. So I appreciate the
answer to that. But if--so I didn't opt out and so forth, and
all of a sudden I say, this just doesn't work for me, so I want
to delete--you told Congressman Rush that you could delete.
What happens to the data? I have already--it is there, it has
been used, Cambridge Analytica may have it. So what happens
when I say, Facebook, take my data off your platform?
Mr. Zuckerberg. If you delete your account, we immediately
make it so that your account is no longer available once you
are done deleting it, so no one can find you on the service. We
wouldn't be able to recreate your account from that.
We do have data centers and systems that are redundant, and
we have backups in case something bad happens. And over a
number of days, we will go through and make sure that we flush
all the content out of the system.
But as soon as you delete your account, effectively, that
content is dismantled, and we wouldn't be able to put your
account back together if we wanted to.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Guthrie. Well, thank you. My time has expired. I
appreciate it.
Mr. Walden. I recognize the gentleman from Maryland, Mr.
Sarbanes, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Sarbanes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, Mr. Zuckerberg.
I wanted to get something on the record quickly before I
move to some questions. You had suggested in your testimony
over the last couple days that Facebook notified the Trump and
Clinton campaigns of Russian attempts to hack into those
campaigns. But representatives of both campaigns in the last 24
hours have said that didn't happen. So we are going to need to
follow up on that and find out what the real story is, but----
Mr. Zuckerberg. Do you want me to----
Mr. Sarbanes. No. I would like to move on. You can provide
a response to that in writing, if you would.
Let me ask you: Is it true that Facebook offered to provide
what I guess you referred to as dedicated campaign embeds to
both of the Presidential campaigns?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I can quickly respond to the
first point too.
Mr. Sarbanes. Just say yes or no. Were there embeds in the
two campaigns? Were offers of embeds----
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we----
Mr. Sarbanes. Yes or no. Were there embeds offered to the
Trump campaign and the Clinton campaign?
Mr. Zuckerberg. We offer sales support to every campaign.
Mr. Sarbanes. OK. So sales support. I am going to refer to
that as embeds. And I gather that Mr. Trump's campaign
ultimately accepted that offer. Is that correct? Yes or no.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, the Trump campaign had sales
support, and the Clinton campaign had sales support too.
Mr. Sarbanes. OK. So they had embeds. I am going to refer
to those as embeds. What I would like for you to do, if you
could--we are not going to have time for you to do this now--
but if you could provide to the committee both the initial
offer terms and then any subsequent offer terms that were
presented to each candidate in terms of what the embed services
would be, that would be very helpful.
Do you know how many ads were approved for display on
Facebook for each of the Presidential candidates by Facebook?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I do not, sitting here, off
the top of my head, but----
Mr. Sarbanes. OK. Let me tell you what they were, because I
do. President Trump's campaign had an estimated 5.9 million ads
approved; and Secretary Clinton, 66,000 ads. So that is a delta
of about 90 times as much on the Trump campaign, which raises
some questions about whether the ad approval processes were
maybe not processed correctly or inappropriately bypassed in
the final months and weeks of the election by the Trump
campaign.
And what I am worried about is that the embeds may have
helped to facilitate that. Can you say with absolute certainty
that Facebook or any of the Facebook employees working as
campaign embeds did not grant any special approval rights to
the Trump campaign to allow them to upload a very large number
of Facebook ads in that final stretch?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we apply the same standard to
all campaigns.
Mr. Sarbanes. Can you say that there were not special
approval rights granted? Is that what you are saying? There
were not special approval rights granted by any of the embeds
or support folks, as you call them, in that Trump campaign?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman----
Mr. Sarbanes. Yes or no.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes. What I am saying is that----
Mr. Sarbanes. If you are saying yes, then I will take you
at your word.
The reason this is important and the reason we need to get
to the bottom of it is because it could be a serious problem if
these kinds of services were provided beyond what is offered in
the normal course, because that could result in violation of
campaign finance law because it would be construed as an in-
kind contribution, corporate contribution from Facebook beyond
what the sort of ad buy opportunity would typically provide.
The reason I am asking you these questions is because I am
worried that that embed program has the potential to become a
tool for Facebook to solicit favor from policymakers, and that
then creates the potential for real conflict of interest.
And I think a lot of Americans are waking up to the fact
that Facebook is becoming sort of a self-regulated super
structure for political discourse. And the question is, are we
the people going to regulate our political dialogue, or are
you, Mark Zuckerberg, going to end up regulating the political
discourse? So we need to be free of that undue influence.
I thank you for being here, and I yield back.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Olson,
for 4 minutes.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Mr. Chairman, do you mind for the record if
I just answer the first point for--take 10 seconds.
Mr. Walden. That is fine. Go ahead.
Mr. Zuckerberg. When I was referring to the campaigns
yesterday I meant the DNC and RNC. So I may have misspoken and
maybe technically that is called the committees, but those were
the folks who I was referring to.
Mr. Walden. Thank you for that clarification.
We will now go to Mr. Olson from Texas for 4 minutes.
Mr. Olson. I thank the Chair.
Mr. Zuckerberg, I know we both wish we had met under a
different set of circumstances. When the story broke, you were
quoted as saying, ``I started Facebook. I run it. I am
responsible for what happens here,'' end quote. You said those
same words in your opening statement about an hour and a half
ago.
I know you believe that in your heart. It is not just some
talking points or canned speech. Because of my 4 years--I am
sorry--9 years in the Navy, I know the best commanding
officers, the best skippers, the best CEOs have that exact same
attitude.
If Facebook was a Navy ship, your privacy has taken a
direct hit. Your trust is severely damaged. You are taking on
water, and your future may be a fine with a number, per The
Washington Post, with four commas in it. Today, over a billion
dollars in fines come your way. As you know, you have to
reinforce your words with actions.
I have a few questions about some anomalies that have
happened in the past. First of all, back in 2012, apparently
Facebook did the experiment on 689,003 Facebook users: You
reduced positive posts from users' friends and limited so-
called downer posts from other friends so they see the positive
information from one group; and the other group, negative
information. The goal was to see how the tone of these posts
would affect behavior. I look at this Forbes article, The LA
Times about illegal human experimentation without permission. I
want to talk about that.
But it seems that this is disconnecting people in stark
contrast to your mission to connect people. Explain to us how
you guys thought this idea was a good idea, experimenting with
people, giving them more negative information, positive
information.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, I view our
responsibility as not just building services that people like
to use but making sure that those services are also good for
people and good for society overall.
At the time, there were a number of questions about whether
people seeing content that was either positive or negative on
social networks was affecting their mood. And we felt like we
had a responsibility to understand whether that was the case
because we don't want to have that effect, right.
We don't want it to have it so that--we want use in social
media and our products to be good for people's well-being. We
continually make changes to that effect. Including just
recently, this year, we did a number of research projects that
showed that when social media is used for building
relationships. So when you are interacting with people, it is
associated with a lot of positive effects of well-being that
you would expect: It makes you feel more connected, less
lonely. It correlates with long-term measures of happiness and
health.
Whereas, if you are using social media or the internet just
to passively consume content, then that doesn't have those same
positive effects or can even be negative. So we have tried to
shift the product more towards helping people interact with
friends and family as a result of that. So that is the kind
of--an example of the kind of work that we do.
Mr. Olson. One last question. I believe I have heard you
employ 27,000 people thereabouts. Is that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Olson. I have also been told that about 20,000 of those
people, including contractors, do work on data security. Is
that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes. The 27,000 number is full-time
employees, and the security and content review includes
contractors, of which there are tens of thousands or will be by
the time that----
Mr. Olson. OK. So roughly at least half your employees are
dedicated to security practices. How can Cambridge Analytica
happen with so much of your workforce dedicated to these
causes? How did that happen?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, the issue with Cambridge
Analytica and Aleksandr Kogan happened before we ramped those
programs up dramatically. But one thing that I think is
important to understand overall is just the sheer volume of
content on Facebook makes it that we can't--no amount of people
that we can hire will be enough to review all of the content.
We need to rely on and build sophisticated AI tools that
can help us flag certain content, and we are getting good in
certain areas. One of the areas that I mentioned earlier was
terrorist content, for example, where we now have AI systems
that can identify and take down 99 percent of the al-Qaida and
ISIS-related content in our system before someone, a human,
even flags it to us. I think we need to do more of that.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr.
McNerney, for 4 minutes.
Mr. McNerney. I thank the chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, I thank you for agreeing to testify before
the House and Senate committees. I know it is a long and
grueling process, and I appreciate your cooperation.
I am a mathematician that spent 20 years in industry and
Government developing technology including algorithms.
Moreover, my constituents are impacted by these issues, so I am
deeply committed and invested here. I am going to follow up on
an earlier question.
Is there currently a place that I can download all of the
Facebook information about me, including the websites that I
have visited?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. We have a Download Your
Information tool. We have had it for years. You can go to it in
your settings and download all of the content that you have on
Facebook.
Mr. McNerney. Well, my staff, just this morning, downloaded
their information, and their browsing history is not in there.
So are you saying that Facebook does not have browsing history?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, that would be correct. If we
don't have content in there, then that means that you don't
have it on Facebook or you haven't put it there.
Mr. McNerney. So I am not quite on board with this. Is
there any other information that Facebook has obtained about
me, whether Facebook collected it or obtained it from a third
party, that would not be included in the download?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, my understanding is that all
of your information is included in Download Your Information.
Mr. McNerney. OK. I am going to follow up with this
afterwards.
Mr. Zuckerberg, you indicated that the European users have
these GDR protections on May 25 and American users will have
those similar protections. When will the American users have
those protections?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we are working on doing that
as quickly as possible. I don't have the exact date yet.
Mr. McNerney. So it will not be on May 25?
Mr. Zuckerberg. We are working on it.
Mr. McNerney. Thank you.
Your company and many companies with an online presence
have a staggering amount of personal information. The customer
is not really in the driver's seat about how their information
is used or monetized. The data collectors are in the driver's
seat.
Today, Facebook is governed by weak Federal privacy
protections. I have introduced legislation that would help
address these issues. They MY DATA Act would give the FTC
rulemaking authority to provide consumers with strong data,
privacy, and security protections. Without this kind of
legislation, how can we be sure that Facebook won't continue to
be careless with users' information?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, let me first just set
aside that my position isn't that there should be no
regulation.
Mr. McNerney. Correct.
Mr. Zuckerberg. But regardless of what the laws are that
are in place, we have a very strong incentive to protect
people's information. This is the core thing that Facebook is,
is, about 100 billion times a day, people come to our service
to share a photo or share a message or----
Mr. McNerney. I hear you saying this, but the history isn't
there. So I think we need to make sure that there are
regulations in place to give you the proper motivation to stay
in line with data protection.
One of the problems here, in my mind, is that Facebook's
history, the privacy--user privacy and security have not been
given as high priority as corporate growth, and you have
admitted as much. Is Facebook considering changing its
management structure to ensure that privacy and security have
sufficient priority to prevent these problems in the future?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, this is an incredibly high
priority for us. When I was saying before that the core use of
the product every day, about 100 billion times, is that people
come and try to share something with a specific set of people,
that works because people have confidence that, if they send a
message, it is going to go to the person that they want. If
they want to share a photo with their friends, it is going to
go to the people who they want. That is incredibly important.
We have built a robust privacy program. We have a chief privacy
officer----
Mr. McNerney. That is a little bit off track from what I am
trying to get at. The privacy protections clearly failed in a
couple of cases that are high profile right now. And part of
the blame that seems to be out there is that the management
structure for privacy and security don't have the right level
of a profile in Facebook to get your attention to make sure
that they get the proper resources.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from West Virginia, Mr.
McKinley, for 4 minutes.
Mr. McKinley. Thank you for coming, Mr. Zuckerberg.
I have got a yes-or-no question, if you could give that.
Should Facebook enable illegal online pharmacies to sell drugs
such as oxycodone, Percocet, Vicodin without a prescription?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I believe that is against our
policies.
Mr. McKinley. Yes or no, do you think you should be able to
do that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. No, of course not.
Mr. McKinley. And there are 35,000 online pharmacies
operating, and according to the FDA, they think there may be 96
percent of them are operating illegally. And on November of
last year, CNBC had an article say that you were surprised by
the breadth of this opioid crisis.
And, as you can see from these photographs, opioids are
still available on your site, that they are without a
prescription on your site. So it contradicts just what you just
said just a minute ago.
And it went on last week. FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb,
has testified before our office, said that the internet firms
simply aren't taking practical steps to fine and remove these
illegal opioid listings, and he specifically mentioned
Facebook. Are you aware of that, his quote?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman----
Mr. McKinley. Yes or no.
Mr. Zuckerberg [continuing]. I am not specifically aware of
his quote, but I heard that he said something. And let me just
speak to this for a second, because----
Mr. McKinley. If I could--no. We don't--so, in your opening
statement--and I appreciated your remark--you said it is not
enough to give people a voice; we have to make sure that people
aren't using it, Facebook, to hurt people.
Now, America is in the midst of one of the worst epidemics
that it has ever experienced with its drug epidemic. And it is
all across this country, not just in West Virginia. But your
platform is still being used to circumvent the law and allow
people to buy highly addictive drugs without a prescription.
With all due respect, Facebook is actually enabling an
illegal activity, and in so doing, you are hurting people.
Would you agree with that statement?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I think that there are a
number of areas of content that we need to do a better job
policing on our service. Today, the primary way that content
regulation works here--and review--is that people can share
what they want openly on the service, and then, if someone sees
an issue, they can flag it to us, and then we will review it.
Over time, we are shifting to a mode----
Mr. McKinley. You can find out, Mr. Zuckerberg. You know
which pharmacies are operating legally and illegally, but you
are still continuing to take that--allow that to be posted on
Facebook and allow people to get--this scourge, this ravage in
this country is being enabled because of Facebook.
So my question to you as we close on this: You have said
before you were going to take down those ads, but you didn't do
it. We have got statement after statement about things, you are
going to take those down within days, and they haven't gone
down. That, what I just put up, was just from yesterday. It is
still up.
So my question to you is, when are you going to stop--take
down these posts that are done with illegal digital pharmacies?
When are you going to take them down?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, right now, when people report
the posts to us, we will take them down and have people review
them.
Mr. McKinley. Why do they have to--if you have got all
these 20,000 people, you know that they are up there. Where is
your requirement--where is your accountability to allow this to
be occurring, this ravage in this country?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I agree that this is a
terrible issue. And, respectfully, when there are tens of
billions or 100 billion pieces of content that are shared every
day, even 20,000 people reviewing it can't look at everything.
What we need to do is build more AI tools that can proactively
find that content.
Mr. McKinley. You have said before you were going to take
them down, and you haven't.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Vermont, Mr. Welch,
for 4 minutes.
Mr. Welch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, you acknowledged candidly that Facebook
made a mistake. You did an analysis of how it happened. You
promised action. We are at the point where the action will
speak much louder than the words.
But, Mr. Chairman, this Congress has made a mistake. This
event that happened, whether it was Facebook or some other
platform, was foreseeable and inevitable, and we did nothing
about it.
Congresswoman Blackburn and I had a group, a privacy
working group, six meetings with many of the industry players.
There was an acknowledgment on both sides that privacy was not
being protected, that there was no reasonable safeguard for
Americans' privacy. But there was an inability to come to a
conclusion.
So we also have an obligation. And in an effort to move
forward, Mr. Zuckerberg, I have framed some questions that
hopefully will allow a reasonable yes or no answer to see if
there is some common ground to achieve the goal you assert you
have, and we certainly have, the obligation to protect the
privacy of American consumers.
First, do you believe that consumers have a right to know
and control what personal data companies collect from them?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Welch. Do you believe that consumers have a right to
control how and with whom their personal information is shared
with third parties?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes, of course.
Mr. Welch. And do you believe that consumers have a right
to secure and responsible handling of their personal data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman.
Mr. Welch. And do you believe that consumers should be able
to easily place limits on the personal data that companies
collect and retain?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, that seems like a reasonable
principle to me.
Mr. Welch. OK. And do you believe that consumers should be
able to correct or delete inaccurate personal data that
companies have obtained?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, that one might be more
interesting to debate because it depends----
Mr. Welch. Well, then you get back to us with specifics on
that. I think they do have that right.
Do you believe that consumers should be able to have their
data deleted immediately from Facebook when they stop using the
service?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman, and they have that
ability.
Mr. Welch. Good.
And do you believe that the Federal Trade Commission or
another properly resourced governmental agency with rulemaking
authority should be able to determine on a regular basis what
is considered personal information to provide certainty for
consumers and companies what information needs to be protected
most tightly?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I certainly think that that is
an area where we should discuss some sort of oversight.
Mr. Welch. There is not a big discussion here. Who gets the
final say? Is it the private market, companies like yours, or
is there a governmental function here that defines what privacy
is?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I think that is--this is an
area where some regulation makes sense. You proposed a very
specific thing, and I think the details matter.
Mr. Welch. All right. Let me ask you this--I have
appreciated your testimony--will you work this committee to
help put us--to help the U.S. put in place our own privacy
regulation that prioritizes consumers' right to privacy just as
the EU has done?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes, I will make sure that we
work with you to flesh this out.
Mr. Welch. All right. And you have indicated that Facebook
has not always protected the privacy of their users throughout
the company's history. And it seems, though, from your answers,
that consumers--you agree that consumers do have a fundamental
right to privacy that empowers them to control the collection,
the use, the sharing of their personal information online. And
thank you.
Mr. Chairman, privacy cannot be based just on company
policies. Whether it is Facebook or any other company, there
has to be a willingness on the part of this Congress to step up
and provide policy protection to the privacy rights of every
American consumer.
I yield back.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Illinois, Mr.
Kinzinger, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Kinzinger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, thank you for being here.
Given the global reach of Facebook, I would like to know
about the company's policies and practices with respect to
information sharing with foreign governments, if you don't
mind. What personal data does Facebook make available from
Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, to Russian state agencies,
including intel and security agencies?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, in general, the way we
approach data and law enforcement is if we have knowledge of
imminent harm, physical harm that might happen to someone, we
try to reach out to local law enforcement in order to help
prevent that.
I think that that is less built out around the world. It is
more built out in the U.S. So, for example, on that example, we
build out specific programs in the U.S. We have 3,000 people
that are focused on making sure that if we detect that someone
is at risk of harming themselves, we can get them the
appropriate help.
Mr. Kinzinger. What about Russian intel agencies?
Mr. Zuckerberg. The second category of information is when
there is a valid legal process served to us. In general, if a
government puts something out that is overly broad, we are
going to fight back on it. We view our duty as protecting
people's information, but if there is valid service, especially
in the U.S., we will, of course, work with law enforcement. In
general, we are not in the business of providing a lot of
information to the Russian Government.
Mr. Kinzinger. Do you know, is this data only from accounts
located in or operated from these individual countries, or does
it include Facebook's global data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Sorry. Can you repeat that?
Mr. Kinzinger. Yes. Is the data only from the accounts
located in or operated from those countries in terms of Russia
or anything, or does it include Facebook's global data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, in general, countries do
not have jurisdiction to have any valid legal reason to request
data of someone outside of their country. But----
Mr. Kinzinger. Where is it stored? I mean, do they have
access to data----
Mr. Zuckerberg. Oh, we don't store any data on Russia.
Mr. Kinzinger. OK. So it is the global data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Kinzinger. So let me just ask, you mentioned a few
times that we are in an arms race with Russia, but is it one-
sided if Facebook as an American-based company is giving the
opposition everything it needs in terms of where it is storing
its data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Sorry, Congressman, could you repeat that?
Mr. Kinzinger. So you mentioned a few times that we are in
an arms race with Russia.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Kinzinger. If you are giving Russian intelligence
service agencies potentially, even on a valid request, access
to global data that is not in Russia, is that kind of a
disadvantage to us and an advantage to them?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, let me be more precise in my
testimony.
Mr. Kinzinger. Sure. Yes, please.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I have no specific knowledge of any data
that we have ever given to Russia. In general, we will work
with valid law enforcement requests in different countries, and
we can get back to you on what that might mean with Russia
specifically. But I have no knowledge sitting here of any time
that we would have given them information.
Mr. Kinzinger. OK. That would with great.
Now, I have got another unique one I want to bring up. So I
was just today--and I am not saying this as a woe-is-me, but I
think this happens to a lot of people. There have been--my
pictures have been stolen and used in fake accounts all around,
and in many cases people have been extorted for money. We
report it when we can, but we are in a tail chase.
In fact, today I just Googled--or I just put on your
website ``Andrew Kinzinger,'' and he looks a lot like me. But
it says he is from London and lives in L.A. And went to Locke
High School, which isn't anything like me at all. These
accounts pop up a lot, and, again, it is using my pictures but
extorting people for money. And we hear about it from people
that call and say, ``Hey, I was duped,'' or whatever.
I know you can't control everything. I mean, you have a
huge platform and--but can you talk about maybe some movements
into the future to try to prevent that in terms of maybe
recognizing somebody's picture and if it is fake?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. This is an important
issue. Fake accounts overall are a big issue because that is
how a lot of the other issues that we see around fake news and
foreign election interference are happening as well.
So, long term, the solution here is to build more AI tools
that find patterns of people using the services that no real
person would do. And we have been able to do that in order to
take down tens of thousands of accounts, especially related to
election interference leading up to the French election, the
German election, and last year the U.S. Alabama Senate State
election, Senate election--special election. And that is an
area where we should be able to extend that work and develop
more AI tools that can do this more broadly.
Mr. Kinzinger. OK. Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from New Mexico, Mr.
Lujan, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Lujan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I want to pick up where Mr. Kinzinger dropped off here.
Mr. Zuckerberg, Facebook recently announced that a search
feature allowed malicious actors to scrape data on virtually
all of Facebook's 2 billion users. Yes or no, in 2013, Brandon
Copley, the CEO of Giftnix, demonstrated that this feature
could easily be used to gather information at scale?
Well, the answer to that question is yes.
Yes or no, this issue of scraping data was again raised in
2015 by a cybersecurity researcher, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not specifically familiar
with that. The feature that we identified--I think it was a few
weeks ago or a couple weeks ago at this point--was a search
feature that allowed people to look up some information that
people had publicly shared on their profile, so names, profile
pictures, public information.
Mr. Lujan. If a may, Mr. Zuckerberg, I will recognize that
Facebook did turn this feature off.
My question, and the reason I am asking about 2013 and 2015
is Facebook knew about this in 2013 and 2015, which it didn't
turn the feature off until Wednesday of last week, the same
feature that Mr. Kinzinger just talked about where this is
essentially a tool for these malicious actors to go and steal
someone's identity and put the finishing touches on it.
So, again, you know, one of your mentors, Roger McNamee
recently said your business is based on trust, and you are
losing trust. This is a trust question. Why did it take so
long, especially when we are talking about some of the other
pieces that we need to get to the bottom of? Your failure to
act on this issue has made billions of people potentially
vulnerable to identity theft and other types of harmful
malicious actors.
So, onto another subject, Facebook has detailed profiles on
people who have never signed up for Facebook, yes or no?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, in general, we collect data
from people who have not signed up for Facebook for security
purposes to prevent the kind of scraping that you were just
referring to.
Mr. Lujan. So these are called shadow profiles? Is that
what they have been referred to by some?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not familiar with that.
Mr. Lujan. I will refer to them as shadow profiles for
today's hearing.
On average, how many data points does Facebook have on each
Facebook user?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I do not know off the top of my head.
Mr. Lujan. So the average for non-Facebook platforms is
1,500. It has been reported that Facebook has as many as 29,000
data points for an average Facebook user. Do you know how many
points of data that Facebook has on the average non-Facebook
user?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I do not off the top of my
head, but I can have our team get back to you afterwards.
Mr. Lujan. I appreciate that.
It has been admitted by Facebook that you do collect data
points on non-average users. So my question is, can someone who
does not have a Facebook account opt out of Facebook's
involuntary data collection?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, anyone can turn off and opt
out of any data collection for ads, whether they use our
services or not. But in order to prevent people from scraping
public information, which, again, the search feature that you
brought up only showed public information, people's names and
profiles and things that they had made public, but nonetheless,
we don't want people aggregating even public information----
Mr. Lujan [continuing]. But so we----
Mr. Zuckerberg. So we need to know when someone is trying
to repeatedly access our services.
Mr. Lujan. If I may, Mr. Zuckerberg, because I am about out
of time. It may surprise you that we have not talked about this
a lot today. You have said everyone controls their data, but
you are collecting data on people that are not even Facebook
users, that have never signed a consent, a privacy agreement,
and you are collecting their data.
And it may surprise you that, on Facebook's page, when you
go to ``I don't have a Facebook account and would like to
request all my personal data stored by Facebook,'' it takes you
to a form that says, ``Go to your Facebook page, and then, on
your account settings, you can download your data.'' So you are
directing people that don't even have a Facebook page to have
to sign up for a page to erase their data. We have got to fix
that.
The last question that I have is, Have you disclosed to
this committee or to anyone all information Facebook has
uncovered about Russian interference on your platform?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we are working with the right
authorities on that, and I am happy to answer specific
questions here as well.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Lujan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walden. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from
Virginia, Mr. Griffith, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Griffith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate you being here.
Let me state upfront that I share the privacy concerns that
you have heard from a lot of us, and I appreciate your
statements and willingness to, you know, help us figure out a
solution that is good for the American people. So I appreciate
that.
Secondly, I have to say that it is my understanding that
yesterday Senator Shelley Moore Capito, my friend in my
neighboring State of West Virginia, asked you about Facebook's
plans with rural broadband, and you agreed to share that
information with her at some point in time, get her up to date
and up to speed. I was excited to hear that you were excited
about that and passionate about it.
My district is very similar to West Virginia as it borders
it and we have a lot of rural areas. Can you also agree, yes or
no, to update me on that when the information is available?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. We will certainly follow
up with you on this. Part of the mission of connecting everyone
around the world means that everyone needs to be able to be on
the internet.
And, unfortunately, too much of the internet infrastructure
today is too expensive for the current business models of
carriers to support a lot of rural communities with the quality
of service that they deserve.
So we are building a number of specific technologies from,
you know, planes that can beam down internet access to
repeaters and mesh networks to make it so that all these
communities can be served, and we would be happy to follow up
with you on this to----
Mr. Griffith. I appreciate that. And we have got a lot of
drone activity going on in our district, whether it is
University of Virginia at Wise or Virginia Tech. So we would be
happy to help out there too.
Let me switch gears. You talked about trying to ferret out
misinformation, and the question becomes who decides what is
misinformation. So, when some of my political opponents put on
the Facebook that, you know, they think Morgan Griffith is a
bum, I think that is misinformation. What say you?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, without weighing in on that
specific piece of content, let me outline the way that we
approach fighting fake news in general. There are three
categories of fake news that we fight: One are basically
spammers. They are economic actors like the Macedonian trolls
that I think we have all heard about, basically folks who don't
have an ideological goal. They are just trying to write the
most sensational thing they can in order to get people to click
on it so they can make money on ads. It is all economics.
So the way to fight that is we make it so they can't run
our ads; they can't make money. We make it so that we can
detect what they are doing and show it less in news feeds so
they can make less money. When they stop making money, they
just go and do something else, because they are economically
inclined.
The second category are basically state actors, right, so
what we found with Russian interference, and those people are
setting up fake accounts. So, for that, we need to build AI
systems that can go and identify a number of their fake account
networks.
And just last week, we traced back the Russian activity to
a specific fake account network that Russia had in Russia to
influence Russian culture and other Russian-speaking countries
around them. And we took down a number of their fake accounts
and pages, including a news organization that was sanctioned by
Russian--by the Russian Government as a Russian state news
organization.
So that is a pretty big action, but removing fake accounts
is the other way that we can stop the spread of false
information.
Mr. Griffith. And I appreciate that. My time is running
out. I do want to point this out though as part of that, you
know, who is going to decide what is misinformation. We have
heard about the Catholic University and the cross. We have
heard about a candidate. We have heard about the conservative
ladies. A firearms shop, lawful, in my district, had a similar
problem. It has also been corrected.
And so I wonder if the industry has thought about--not only
are we looking at it, but has the industry thought about doing
something like underwriters laboratories, which was set up when
electricity was new to determine whether or not the devices
were safe?
Have you all thought about doing something like that so it
is not Facebook alone but the industry saying, ``Wait a minute,
this is probably misinformation,'' and setting up guidelines
that everybody can agree are fair?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. That is actually the
third category that I was going to get to next after economic
spammers and state actors with fake accounts. One of the things
that we are doing is working with a number of third parties
who--so, if people flag things as false news or incorrect, we
run them by third-party fact checkers who are all accredited by
this Pointer Institute of Journalism. There are firms of all
leanings around this who do this work, and that is an important
part of the effort.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Griffith. I yield back.
Mr. Walden. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from New
York, Mr. Tonko, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Tonko. Thank you.
Mr. Zuckerberg, I want to follow up on a question asked by
Mr. McNerney when he talked about visiting websites and the
fact that Facebook can track you. And as you visit those
websites, you can have that deleted. I am informed that there
is not a way to do that, or are you telling us that you are
announcing a new policy?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, my understanding is that if we
have information from you visiting other places, then you have
a way of getting access to that and deleting it and making sure
that we don't store it anymore.
In the specific question that the other Congressman asked,
I think it is possible that we just didn't have the information
that he was asking about in the first place, and that is why it
wasn't there.
Mr. Tonko. Well, 3 billion user accounts were breached at
Yahoo in 2013; 145 million at eBay in 2014; 143 million at
Equifax in 2017; 78 million at Anthem in 2015; 76 million at
JPMorgan Chase in 2014. The list goes on and on.
The security of all that private data is gone, likely sold
many times over to the highest bidder on the dark web. We live
in an information age. Data breaches and privacy hacks are not
a question of if; they are a question of when.
The case with Facebook is slightly different. The 87
million accounts extracted by Cambridge Analytica are just the
beginning, with likely dozens of other third parties that have
accessed this information. As far as we know, the dam is still
broken.
As you have noted, Mr. Zuckerberg, Facebook's business
model is based on capitalizing on the private personal
information of your users. Data security should be a central
pillar of this model.
And with your latest vast breach of privacy and the
widespread political manipulation that followed it, the
question this committee must ask itself is what role the
Federal Government should play in protecting the American
people and the democratic institutions that your platform and
others like it have put at risk.
In this case, you gave permission to mine the data of some
87 million users based on the deceptive consent of just a
fraction of that number. When they found out I was going to be
speaking with you today, my constituents asked me to share some
of their concerns in person.
How can they protect themselves on your platform? Why
should they trust you again with their likes, their loves,
their lives? Users trusted Facebook to prioritize user privacy
and data security, and that trust has been shattered. I am
encouraged that Facebook is committed to making changes, but I
am indeed wary that you are only acting now out of concern for
your brand and only making changes that should have been made a
long time ago.
You have described this as an arms race, but every time we
saw what precautions you have or, in most cases, have not taken
your company is caught unprepared and ready to issue another
apology. I am left wondering again why Congress should trust
you again. We will be watching you closely to ensure that
Facebook follows through on these commitments.
Many of my constituents have asked about your business
model where users are the product. Mary of Halfmoon, in my
district, called it infuriating. Andy of Schenectady, New York,
asked, why doesn't Facebook pay its users for their incredibly
valuable data. Facebook claims that users rightly own and
control their data, yet their data keeps being exposed on your
platform, and these breaches cause more and more harm each
time.
You have said that Facebook was built to empower its users;
instead, users are having their information abused with
absolutely no recourse. In light of this harm, what liability
should Facebook have? When users' data is mishandled, who is
responsible, and what recourse do users have? Do you bear that
liability?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I think we are responsible for
protecting people's information for sure. But one thing that
you said that I want to provide some clarity on----
Mr. Tonko. Do you bear the liability?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, you said earlier, you referenced that
you thought that we were only taking action after this came to
light. Actually, we made significant changes to the platform in
2014 that would have made this incident with Cambridge
Analytica impossible to happen again today.
I wish we had made those changes a couple of years earlier
because this poll app got people to use it back in 2013 and
2014, and if we had made the changes a couple of years earlier,
then we would have----
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes----
Mr. Tonko. Mr. Chairman, if I might ask that other
questions that my constituents have be entered by unanimous
consent.
Mr. Walden. Sure. Without objection, of course.
[The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
Mr. Walden. That goes for all Members.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr.
Bilirakis, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
appreciate it.
And thanks for your testimony, Mr. Zuckerberg.
Well, first of all, I wanted to follow up with Mr.
McKinley's testimony. This is bad stuff, Mr. Zuckerberg, with
regard to the illegal online pharmacies. When are those ads--I
mean, when are you going to take those off? I think we need an
answer to that. I think we need to get these off as soon as
possible.
Can you give us an answer, a clear answer as to when these
pharmacies--we have an epidemic here with regard to the
opioids. I think we are owed a clear answer, a definitive
answer as to when these ads will be offline.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, if people flag those ads for
us, we will take them down now.
Mr. Bilirakis. Now?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Bilirakis. By the end of the day?
Mr. Zuckerberg. If people flag them for us, we will look at
them as quickly as we can.
Mr. Bilirakis. Well, you have knowledge now, obviously.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Sorry?
Mr. Bilirakis. You have knowledge of those ads. Will you
begin to take them down today?
Mr. Zuckerberg. The ads that are flagged for us we will
review and take down if they violate our policies, which I
believe the ones that you are talking about----
Mr. Bilirakis. They clearly do. If they are illegal, they
clearly violate your policy.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Which they do. But what I think really
needs to happen here is not just us reviewing content that gets
flagged for us. We need to be able to build tools that can
proactively go out and identify what might be these ads for
opioids before people even have to flag them for us to review.
Mr. Bilirakis. I agree.
Mr. Zuckerberg. And that is going to be a longer-term thing
in order to build that solution. So but, today, if someone
flags the ads for us, we will take them down.
Mr. Bilirakis. Work on those tools as soon as possible,
please.
OK. Next question. A constituent of mine in District 12 of
Florida, Tampa Bay area, came to me recently with what was a
clear violation of your privacy policy. In this case, a third-
party organization publicly posted personal information about
my constituent on his Facebook page.
This included his home address, voting record, degrading
photos, and other information. In my opinion, this is
cyberbullying. For weeks, my constituent tried reaching out to
Facebook on multiple occasions through its report feature, but
the offending content remained. It was only when my office got
involved that the posts were removed almost immediately for
violating Facebook policy.
How does Facebook's self-reporting policy work to prevent
misuse, and why did it take an act of Congress, a Member of
Congress, to get, again, a clear privacy violation removed from
Facebook? If you can answer that question, I would appreciate
it, please.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, that clearly sounds like a big
issue and something that would violate our policies. I don't
know have specific knowledge of that case, but what I imagine
happened, given what you just said, is they reported it to us
and one of the people who reviews content probably made an
enforcement error. And then when you reached out, we probably
looked at it again and realized that it violated the policies
and took it down.
We have a number of steps that we need to take to improve
the accuracy of our enforcement.
Mr. Bilirakis. Absolutely.
Mr. Zuckerberg. That is a big issue, and we need to get to
content faster, and we need to be able to do better at this. I
think the same solution to the opioid question that you raised
earlier of doing more with automated tools will lead to both
faster response times and more accurate enforcement of the
policies.
Mr. Bilirakis. Can you give us a timeline, as to when will
this be done? I mean, this is very critical for--I mean,
listen, my family uses Facebook, my friends, my constituents.
We all use Facebook. I use Facebook. It is wonderful for our
seniors to connect with their relatives.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Bilirakis. Yes. I am sorry. Can I submit for the record
my additional questions?
Mr. Walden. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Mr. Walden. The Chair recognizes the gentlelady from New
York, Ms. Clarke, for 4 minutes.
Ms. Clarke. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you for coming before us, Mr. Zuckerberg, today.
I want to take the opportunity to represent the concerns of
the newly formed Tech Accountability Caucus, in which I serve
as a co-chair with my colleagues, Representative Robin Kelly,
Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, and Congresswoman Bonnie Watson
Coleman, but, most importantly, people in our country and
around the globe or in vulnerable populations, including those
who look just like me.
My first question to you is, as you may be aware, there
have been numerous media reports about how more than 3,000
Russian ads were bought on Facebook to incite racial and
religious division and chaos in the U.S. during the 2016
election.
Those ads specifically characterized and weaponized African
American groups like Black Lives Matter, in which ads suggested
through propaganda or fake news, as people call it these days,
that they were a rising threat.
Do you think that the lack of diversity, culturally
competent personnel in your C-Suite and throughout your
organization, in which your company did not detect or disrupt
and investigate these claims, are a problem in this regard?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I agree that we need to work
on diversity. In this specific case, I don't think that that
was the issue because we were, frankly, slow to identifying the
whole Russian misinformation operation and not just that
specific example.
Going forward, we are going to address this by verifying
the identity of every single advertiser who is running
political or issue-oriented ads to make it so that foreign
actors or people trying to spoof their identity or say that
they are someone that they are not cannot run political ads or
run large pages of the type that you are talking about.
Ms. Clarke. So, whether they were Russian or not, when you
have propaganda, how are you addressing that? Because this was
extremely harmful during the last election cycle, and it can
continue to be so in the upcoming elections and throughout the
year, right?
I am concerned that there are not eyes that are culturally
competent looking at these things and being able to see how
this would impact on civil society. If everyone within the
organization is monolithic, then you can miss these things very
easily. And we have talked about diversity forever with your
organization.
What can you say today when you look at how all of this
operates that you can do immediately to make sure that we have
the types of viewing or reviewing that can enable us to catch
this in its tracks?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, we announced a change in how
we are going to review ads and big pages so that now, going
forward, we are going to verify the identity and location of
every advertiser who is running political or issue ads or--and
the identities of anyone running----
Ms. Clarke. We would like you to get back to us with a
timeline on that.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Oh, that will be in place for these
elections.
Ms. Clarke. OK. Fabulous.
When Mr. Kogan sold the Facebook-based data that he
acquired through the quiz app to Cambridge Analytica, did he
violate Facebook's policies at the time?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congresswoman.
Ms. Clarke. When the Obama campaign collected millions of
Facebook users' data through their own app during the 2012
election, did it violate Facebook's policies at the time?
Mr. Zuckerberg. No, Congresswoman, it did not.
Ms. Clarke. I hope you understand that this distinction
provides little comfort to those of us concerned about our
privacy online.
Regardless of political party, Americans desperately need
to be protected. Democrats on this committee have been calling
for strong privacy and data security legislation for years. We
really can't wait, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Johnson,
for 4 minutes.
Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, thanks for joining us today.
Let me add my name to the list of folks that you are going
to get back to on the rural broadband internet access question.
Please add my name to that list.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Of course.
Mr. Johnson. I have got a lot of those folks in my
district.
You know, you are a real American success story. There is
no question that you and Facebook have revolutionized the way
Americans--in fact, the world--communicate and interconnect
with one another.
I think one of the reasons that you were able to do that is
because nowhere other than here in America, where a young man
in college can pursue his dreams and ambitions on his own terms
without a big Federal Government overregulating them and
telling them what they can and cannot do, could you have
achieved something like this.
But in the absence of Federal regulations that would reel
that in, the only way it works for the betterment of society
and people is with a high degree of responsibility and trust.
And you have acknowledged that there have been some breakdowns
in responsibility.
And I think sometimes--and I am a technology guy. I have
two degrees in computer science. I am a software engineer. I am
a patent holder. So I know the challenges that you face in
terms of managing the technology.
But oftentimes technology folks spend so much time thinking
about what they can do and little time thinking about what they
should do. And so I want to talk about some of those should-do
kinds of things.
You heard earlier about faith-based material that had been
taken down, ads that had been taken down. You admitted that it
was a mistake. That was in my district, by the way. Franciscan
University, a faith-based university, was the one that did
that.
How is your content filtered and determined to be
appropriate or not appropriate and policy compliant? Is it an
algorithm that does it, or is there a team of a gazillion
people that sit there and look at each and every add that make
that determination?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, it is a combination of both.
So, at the end of the day, we have community standards that are
written out and try to be very clear about what is acceptable.
And we have a large team of people. As I said, by the end of
this year, we are going to have more than 20,000 people working
on security and content review across the company.
But in order to flag some content quickly, we also build
technical systems in order to take things down. So, if we see
terrorist content, for example, we will flag that, and we can
take that down.
Mr. Johnson. What do you do when you find someone or
something that has made a mistake? I mean, I have heard you say
several times today that you know a mistake has been made. What
kind of accountability is there when mistakes are made?
Because every time a mistake like that is made, it is a
little bit of a chip away from the trust and the responsibility
factors. How do you hold people accountable in Facebook when
they make those kind of mistakes of taking stuff down that
shouldn't be taken down or leaving stuff up that should not be
left up?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, for content reviewers
specifically, their performance is going to be measured by
whether they do their job accurately.
Mr. Johnson. Do you ever fire anybody when you do stuff
like that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I am sure we do. As part of the normal
course of running a company, you are hiring and firing people
all the time to grow your capacity and manage performance.
Mr. Johnson. What happened to the person that took down the
Franciscan University ad and didn't put it back up until the
media started getting involved?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not specifically aware of
that case.
Mr. Johnson. Can you take that question for me--my time has
expired. Can you take that question for me and get me that
answer back, please?
Mr. Zuckerberg. We will.
Mr. Johnson. OK. Thank you very much.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Iowa, Mr. Loebsack.
Mr. Loebsack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you
and the ranking member for holding this hearing today.
And I want to thank Mr. Zuckerberg for being here today as
well. Add my name to the rural broadband list as well. I have
one-fourth of Iowa, southeast part of Iowa. We definitely need
more help on that front. Thank you.
You may recall last year, Mr. Zuckerberg, that you set out
to visit every State in the country to meet different people.
And one of those places you visited was, in fact, Iowa, my home
State of Iowa, and you did visit the district that I probably
represent, and you met some of my constituents.
As you began your tour, you said that you believed in
connecting the world and giving everyone a voice and that,
quote, you wanted, quote, to personally hear more of those
voices. I am going to do the same thing in just a second that a
number of my colleagues did and just ask you some questions
that were submitted to my Facebook page by some of my
constituents.
I do want to say at the outset though--and I do ask for
unanimous consent to enter all those questions in the record,
Mr. Chair.
Mr. Walden. Without objection.
[The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
Mr. Loebsack. I think trust has been the issue today. There
is no question about it. I think that is what I am hearing from
my constituents. That is what we are hearing from our
colleagues.
That is really the question: How can we be guaranteed that,
for example, when you agree to some things today, that you are
going to follow through and that we are going to be able to
hold you accountable, and without perhaps constructing too many
rules and regulations? We would like to keep that to a minimum
if we possibly can.
But I do understand that you have agreed that we are going
to have to have some rules and regulations so that we can
protect people's privacy, so that we can protect that use of
the consumer data.
So, going forward from there, I have just got a few
questions I will probably have an opportunity to get to. The
first one goes to the business model issue because you are
publicly traded. Is that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Loebsack. And you are the CEO?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Loebsack. Right. And so I have got Lauren from Solon
who asks, is it possible for Facebook to exist without
collecting and selling our data? Is it possible to exist?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we don't sell people's data.
So I think that that is an important thing to clarify upfront.
And then, in terms of collecting data, I mean, the whole
purpose of the service is so that you can share the things that
you want with the people around you and your friends. So----
Mr. Loebsack. Is it possible for you to be in business
without sharing the data? Because that is what you have done,
whether it was selling or not, sharing the data, providing it
to Cambridge Analytica and other folks along the way. Is it
possible for your business to exist without doing that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, it would be possible for
our business to exist without having a developer platform. It
would not be possible for our business or our products or our
services or anything that we do to exist without having the
opportunity for people to go to Facebook, put in the content
that they want to share, and who they want to share it with,
and then go do that. That is the core thing that----
Mr. Loebsack. Thank you. I appreciate that.
And then Brenda from Muscatine, she has a question,
obviously, related to trust as well. And that is, how will
changes promised this time be proven to be completed? She would
like to know how is that going to happen.
If there are changes, and you said there have been some
changes, how can she and those folks in our districts and
throughout America, not just Members of Congress, but how can
folks in our districts hold you accountable? How do they know
that those changes are, in fact, going to happen? That is what
that question is about.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, for the developer platform
changes that we announced, they are implemented. We are putting
those into place. We announced a bunch of specific things. It
is on our blog, and I wrote it in my written testimony, and
that stuff is happening.
We are also going back and investigating every single app
that had access to a large amount of data before we locked down
the platform in the past. We will tell people if we find
anything that misused their data, and we will tell people when
the investigation is complete.
Mr. Loebsack. Thank you. And, finally, Chad from Scott
County wants to know, who has my data other than Cambridge
Analytica?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, part of what I just said is we
are going to do an investigation of every single app that had
access to a large amount of people's data. If you signed into
another app, then that app probably has access to some of your
data.
And part of the investigation that we are going to do is to
determine whether those app developers did anything improper,
shared that data further beyond that. And if we find anything
like that, we will tell people that their data was misused.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Loebsack. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Walden. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from
Missouri, Mr. Long, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Long. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being here today on a
voluntarily basis. I want to put that out here. You were not
subpoenaed to be here, as Mr. Barton offered up a little bit
ago.
You are the only witness at the table today. We have had 10
people at that table, to give you an idea of what kind of
hearings we have had in here. Not too long ago, we had 10. And
I would say that if we invited everyone that had read your
terms of agreement, terms of service, we could probably fit
them at that table.
I also would say that I represent 751,000 people, and out
of that 751,000 people, the people in my area that are really
worked up about this Facebook and about this hearing today
would also fit with you there at the table. So I am not getting
the outcry from my constituents about what is going on with
Cambridge Analytica and this user agreement and everything
else. But there are some things that I think you need to be
concerned about.
One question I would like to ask before I go into my
questioning is, what was FaceMash, and is it still up and
running?
Mr. Zuckerberg. No, Congressman. FaceMash was a prank
website that I launched in college, in my dorm room, before I
started Facebook. There was a movie about this, or it said it
was about this. It was of unclear truth. And the claim that
FaceMash was somehow connected to the development of Facebook,
it isn't, it wasn't, and FaceMash----
Mr. Long. The timing was the same, right? Just
coincidental?
Mr. Zuckerberg. It was in 2003.
Mr. Long. OK.
Mr. Zuckerberg. And I took it down in----
Mr. Long. And that is a site where you rate women?
Mr. Zuckerberg. And it actually has nothing to do with----
Mr. Long. You would put up pictures of two women and decide
which one was the better, more attractive of the two. Is that
right?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, that is an accurate
description of the prank website that I made when I was a
sophomore in college.
Mr. Long. OK. But from that beginning, whether it was
actually the beginning of Facebook or not, you have come a long
way.
Jan Schakowsky, Congresswoman Schakowsky, this morning
said, ``Self-regulation simply does not work.'' Mr.
Butterfield, Representative Butterfield, said that you need
more African-American inclusion on your board of directors.
If I was you--a little bit of advice. Congress is good at
two things: doing nothing and overreacting. So far, we have
done nothing on Facebook. Since your inception in that Harvard
dorm room those many years ago, we have done nothing on
Facebook. We are getting ready to overreact. So just take that
as a shot-across-the-bow warning to you.
You have a good outfit there on your front row behind you,
very bright folks. You are Harvard-educated. I have a Yale hat
that cost me $160,000. That is as close as I ever got to an Ivy
League school.
But I would like to show you right now a little picture
here. Do you recognize these folks?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I do.
Mr. Long. Who are they?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I believe--is that Diamond and Silk?
Mr. Long. That is Diamond and Silk, two biological sisters
from North Carolina. I might point out they are African
American. And their content was deemed by your folks to be
unsafe. So, you know, I don't know what type of a picture this
is, if it was taken in a police station or what, in a lineup,
but apparently they have been deemed unsafe.
Diamond and Silk have a question for you, and that question
is: What is unsafe about two black women supporting President
Donald J. Trump?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, nothing is unsafe about
that. The specifics of this situation I am not as up to speed
on as I probably would be if I didn't----
Mr. Long. Well, you have 20,000 employees, as you said, to
check content. And I would suggest, as good as you are with
analytics, that those 20,000 people use some analytical
research and see how many conservative websites have been
pulled down and how many liberal websites.
One of our talk show hosts at home, Nick Reed, this morning
on the radio said that if Diamond and Silk were liberal they
would be on the late-night talk show circuit, back and forth.
They are humorous. They have their opinion, not that you have
to agree or that I have to agree. Do agree, don't agree with
them, but the fact that they are conservative--and I would just
remember--if you don't remember anything else from this hearing
here today, remember: We do nothing, and we overreact. And----
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time----
Mr. Long [continuing]. We are getting ready to overreact.
So I would suggest you go home and review all these other
things people have accused you of today, get with your good
team there behind you----
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Long. You are the guy to fix this. We are not. You need
to save your ship.
Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Ms. Schakowsky. Mr. Chairman, since my name was mentioned,
can I just respond?
Mr. Walden. Well, I tell you, if we could move on, just
because we are going to run out of time for Members down-dais
to be able to ask their questions.
Ms. Schakowsky. OK. I consider Billy Long a good friend.
Let me just say that I don't think it was a breach of decorum,
and I just take issue with his saying that a very modest bill
that I have introduced is an overreach. That is all.
Mr. Walden. All right.
Mr. Long. I didn't say it was an overreach. All I said
was--I was just letting----
Mr. Walden. I now recognize the gentleman from Oregon, Mr.
Schrader, for questions for 4 minutes.
Mr. Schrader. Ah, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate that.
Mr. Zuckerberg, again, thank you for being here. Appreciate
your good auspices in voluntarily coming before us.
You have testified that you voluntarily took Cambridge
Analytica's word that they had deleted information. You found
out subsequently that they did not delete that information,
have sent in your own forensics team, which I applaud. I just
want to make sure and get some questions answered here.
Can you tell us that they were not told--they were told not
to destroy any data, misappropriated data, they may find?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, so you are right that in 2015,
when we found out that the app developer Aleksandr Kogan had
sold data to Cambridge Analytica, we reached out to him at that
point, and we demanded that they delete all the data that they
had.
They told us at that point that they had done that. And
then a month ago we heard a new report that said that they
actually hadn't done that.
Mr. Schrader. But I am talking about the direction you have
given your forensic team. If they find stuff, they are not to
delete it at this point in time? Or are they going to go ahead
and delete it?
Mr. Zuckerberg. The audit team that we are sending in?
Mr. Schrader. Right.
Mr. Zuckerberg. The first order of business is to
understand exactly what happened. And----
Mr. Schrader. I am worried about the information being
deleted without law enforcement having the opportunity to
actually review that.
Will you commit to this committee that neither Facebook nor
its agents have removed any information or evidence from
Cambridge Analytica's offices?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I do not believe that we have.
And----
Mr. Schrader. And how about Mr. Kogan's office, if I may
ask?
Mr. Zuckerberg. One specific point on this is that our
audit of Cambridge Analytica, we have paused that in order to
cede to the U.K. Government, which is conducting its own
government audit, which, of course--an investigation, which, of
course, takes precedence.
Mr. Schrader. With all due respect, what I am getting at
is, I would like to have the information available for the U.K.
or U.S. law enforcement officials, and I did not hear you
commit to that.
Will you commit to the committee that Facebook has not
destroyed any data records that may be relevant to any Federal,
State, or international law enforcement investigation?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes. What I am saying is that
the U.K. Government is going to complete its investigation
before we go in and do our audit. So they will have full access
to all the information.
Mr. Schrader. So you suspended your audit pending the
U.K.'s investigation.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes. We have paused it pending theirs.
Mr. Schrader. OK.
So it is my understanding that you and other Facebook
executives have the ability to rescind or delete messages that
are on people's websites.
To be clear, I just want to make sure that, if that is
indeed the case, that after you have deleted that information,
that somehow law enforcement, particularly relevant to this
case, would still have access to those messages.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes. We have a document
retention policy at the company where, for some people, we
delete emails after a period of time, but we of course preserve
anything that there is a legal hold on.
Mr. Schrader. Great. Well, I appreciate that.
While you have testified very clearly that you do not sell
information--that is not Facebook's model. You do the
advertising and, obviously, have other means of revenue. But it
is pretty clear others do sell that information. Doesn't that
make you somewhat complicit in what they are doing? You are
allowing them to sell the information that they glean from your
website?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, I would disagree that we
allow it. We actually expressly prohibit any developer that----
Mr. Schrader. How do you enforce that? That is my concern.
How do you enforce that? Complaint only is what I have heard so
far tonight.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman, some of it is in response
to reports that we get. And some of it is we do spot checks to
make sure that the apps are actually doing what they say they
are doing. And, going forward, we are going to increase the
number of audits that we do as well.
Mr. Schrader. So last question is, it is my understanding
based on the testimony here today that, even after I am off of
Facebook, that you guys still have the ability to follow my web
interactions. Is that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman----
Mr. Schrader. I have logged out of Facebook. Do you still
have the ability to follow my interactions on the web?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, you have control over what we
do for ads and the information collection around that. On
security, there may be specific things about how you use
Facebook even if you are not logged in that we keep track of to
make sure that people aren't abusing the system.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Schrader. I yield back.
Mr. Walden. And just for our Members who haven't had a
chance to ask questions, we will pause at--well, we will have
votes at 1:40. We will continue the hearing after a brief
pause. And we will coordinate that.
We will go now to Dr. Bucshon.
Mr. Bucshon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being here.
There are plenty of anecdotal examples, including from
family members of mine, where people will be verbally
discussing items, never having actually been on the internet at
the time, and then the next time they get on Facebook or other
online apps ads for things that they were verbally discussing
with each other will show up.
And I know you said in the Senate that Facebook doesn't
listen, specifically listen, to what people are saying through
their phone, whether that is a Google phone or whether it is
Apple or another one.
However, the other day, my mother-in-law and I were
discussing her brother, who had been deceased for about 10
years. And later on that evening, on her Facebook site, she had
set to music kind of an in-memoriam picture collage that came
up on Facebook specifically to her brother. And that happened
the other night.
So, if you are not listening to us on the phone, who is?
And do you have specific contracts with these companies that
will provide data that is being acquired verbally through our
phones or now through things like Alexa or other products?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we are not collecting any
information verbally on the microphone, and we don't have
contracts with anyone else who is.
The only time that we might use the microphone is when you
are recording a video or doing something where you
intentionally are trying to record audio. But we don't have
anything that is trying to listen to what is going on in the
background.
Mr. Bucshon. OK. Because, I mean, like I said, I mean, you
have talked to people that this has happened to. My son, who
lives in Chicago, him and his colleagues were talking about a
certain type of suit, because they are business guys, and the
next day he had a bunch of ads for different suits when he went
onto the internet.
So it is pretty obvious to me that someone is listening to
the audio on our phones. And I see that as a pretty big issue,
and the reason is because--and you may not be, but I see it as
a pretty big issue because, for example, if you are in your
doctor's office, if you are in your corporate boardroom, your
office, or even personal areas of your home, that is
potentially an issue.
And I am glad to hear that Facebook isn't listening, but I
am skeptical that someone isn't. And I see this as an industry-
wide issue that you could potentially help address.
And the final thing I will just ask is, when you have, say,
an executive session or whatever of your corporate board and
you have decisions to be made, do you allow the people in the
room to have their phones on them?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we do. I don't think we have a
policy that says that your phone can't be on.
And, again, I am not familiar with--Facebook doesn't do
this, and I am not familiar with other companies that do
either.
My understanding is that a lot of these cases that you are
talking about are a coincidence, or someone might be talking
about something but then they also go to a website or interact
with it on Facebook because they were talking about it, and
then maybe they will see the ad because of that, which is a
much clearer statement of the intent.
Mr. Bucshon. OK. Because, if that is the case, then--I
mean, I know, for convenience, companies have developed things
like Alexa, and I don't want to just--and other companies are
developing things like that. But it just seems to me that part
of the whole point of those products is not just for your own
convenience, but when you are verbally talking about things and
you are not on the internet, they are able to collect
information on the type of activities that you are engaging in.
So I would implore the industry to look into that and make
sure that, in addition to physical exploring the internet and
collecting data, that data being taken verbally not be allowed.
Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr.
Kennedy, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Kennedy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, thank you for being here. Thank you for
your patience over both days of testimony.
You spoke about the framing of your testimony about
privacy, security, and democracy. I want to ask you about
privacy and democracy, because I think, obviously, those are
linked.
You have said over the course of questioning yesterday and
today that users own all of their data. So I want to make sure
that we drill down on that a little bit, and I think our
colleagues have tried.
That includes, I believe, the information that Facebook
requires users to make public. So that would be a profile
picture, gender, age range, all of which is public-facing
information. Is that right?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. OK.
So can advertisers, then, understanding that you, Facebook,
maintain the data--you are not settling that to anybody else.
But advertisers clearly end up having access to that through
agreements with you about how they then target ads to me, to
you, to any other user.
Can advertisers in any way use nonpublic data, so data that
individuals would not think is necessarily public, so that they
can target their ads?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, the way this works is, let's
say you have a business that is selling skis, OK? And you have
on your profile that you are interested in skiing, but let's
say you haven't made that public, but you share it with your
friends, so broadly.
We don't tell the advertiser that ``hereis a list of people
who like skis.'' They just say, ``OK, we are trying to sell
skis. Can you reach people who like skis?'' And then we match
that up on our side without sharing any of that information
with the advertisers.
Mr. Kennedy. Understood, you don't share that. But they get
access to that information so that if they know--they want to
market skis to me because I like skis.
In the realm of data that is accessible to them, does
Facebook include deleted data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, no.
And I also would push back on the idea that we are giving
them access to the data. We allow them to reach people who said
that on Facebook, but we are not giving them access to the
data.
Mr. Kennedy. OK. Fair. Fair.
So can advertisers, either directly or indirectly, get
access to or use the metadata that Facebook collects in order
to more specifically target ads? So that would include--I know
you have talked a lot about how Facebook would use access to
information for folks that--well, I might be able to opt in or
out about your ability to track me to other websites. Is that
used by those advertisers, as well?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not sure I understand the
question. Can you give me an example of what you mean?
Mr. Kennedy. So, essentially, the advertisers that are
using your platform, do they get access to information that the
user doesn't actually think is either, one, being generated or,
two, is public?
Understanding that, yes, if you dive into the details of
your platform, users might be able to shut that off. But I
think one of the challenges with the trust here is that there
is an awful lot of information that is generated that people
don't think they are generating and that advertisers are being
able to target because Facebook collects it.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes. So, Congressman, my understanding is
that the targeting options that are available for advertisers
are generally things that are based on what people share.
Now, once an advertiser chooses how they want to target
something, Facebook also does its own work to help rank and
determine which ads are going to be interesting to which
people. So we may use metadata or other behaviors of what you
have shown that you are interested in and news feed or other
places in order to make our systems more relevant to you. But
that is a little bit different from giving that as an option to
an advertiser, if that makes sense.
Mr. Kennedy. Right. But then I guess the question, back
to--and I only have 20 seconds. I think one of the rubs that
you are hearing is I don't understand how users then own that
data. I think that is part of the rub.
Second, you focus a lot of your testimony and the questions
on the individual privacy aspects of this, but we haven't
talked about the societal implication of it. And I think, while
I applaud some of the reforms that you are putting forward, the
underlying issue here is that your platform has become a mix
of----
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time----
Mr. Kennedy [continuing]. Two seconds--news, entertainment,
social media that is up for manipulation. We have seen that
with a foreign actor.
If the changes to individual privacy don't seem to be
sufficient to address that underlying issue----
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Kennedy. I would love your comments on that at the
appropriate time. Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas,
Mr. Flores, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Flores. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, thank you for being here today. I am up
here, top row. I am certain that there are other things you
would rather be doing.
The activities of Facebook and other technology companies
should not surprise us. I mean, we have seen it before. And,
again, don't take this critically, but we saw a large oil
company become a monopoly back in the late 1800s, early 1900s.
We saw a large telecommunications company become a near-
monopoly in the sixties, seventies, and eighties.
And just as Facebook, these companies were founded by
bright entrepreneurs. Their companies grew. And, eventually,
they sometimes became detached from everyday Americans. And
what happened is policymakers then had to step in and
reestablish the balance between those folks and everyday
Americans.
You didn't intend for this to happen. It did happen. And I
appreciate that you have apologized for it. And one of the
things I appreciate about Facebook, it appears you are
proactively trying to address the situation.
Just as we addressed those monopolies in the past, we are
faced with that situation today. And this goes beyond Facebook.
This has to do with the edge providers. It has to do with
social media organizations and also with ISPs.
Back to Facebook in particular, though, we heard examples
yesterday during the Senate hearing and also today during this
hearing so far about ideological bias among the users of
Facebook. In my Texas district, I had a retired schoolteacher
whose conservative postings were banned or stopped. The good
news is I was able to work with Facebook's personnel and get
her reinstated. That said, the Facebook censors still seem to
be trying to stop her postings, and anything you can do in that
regard to fix that bias will go a long way.
I want to move a different direction, and that is to talk
about the future. Congress needs to consider policy responses,
as I said earlier. And I want to call this policy response
Privacy 2.0 and Fairness 2.0. With respect to fairness, I think
the technology companies should be ideologically agnostic
regarding their users' public-facing activities. The only
exception would be for potentially violent behavior.
My question is on this: Do you agree that Facebook and
other technology platforms should be idealogically neutral?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I agree that we should be a
platform for all ideas and that we should focus on that.
Mr. Flores. Good.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I----
Mr. Flores. I have to--I have limited time.
With respect to privacy, I think that we need to set a
baseline. When we talk about a virtual person that each
technology user establishes online--their name, address, their
online purchases, geolocation data, websites visited, pictures,
et cetera--I think that the individual owns the virtual person
that they have set up online.
My second question is this: You have said earlier that each
user owns their virtual presence. Do you think that this
concept should apply to all technology providers, including
social media platforms, edge providers, and ISPs?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes, in general. I mean, I
think that people own their----
Mr. Flores. Thank you. I am not trying to cut you off. You
can provide more information supplementally afterward, if you
don't mind.
In this regard, I believe that if Congress enacts privacy
standards for technology providers, just as we have for
financial institutions, healthcare, employee benefits, et
cetera, the policy should state that the data of technology
users should be held privately unless they specifically consent
to the use of the data by others.
This release should be based upon the absolute transparency
as to what data will be used, how it will be processed, where
it will be stored, what algorithms will be applied to it, who
will have access to it, if it will be sold, and to whom it
might be sold.
The disclosure of this information and the associated opt-
in actions should be easy to understand and easier for
nontechnical users to execute. The days of the long, scrolling,
fine-print disclosures with a single checkmark at the bottom
should end. In this regard, based on my use of Facebook----
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's----
Mr. Flores [continuing]. I think you have come a long way
toward meeting that objective. I think we must move further.
I will have two other questions to submit later. And thank
you. You can expand on your responses to my earlier questions
later. Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from California for 4
minutes, Mr. Cardenas.
Mr. Cardenas. Thank you very much. It seems like we have
been here forever, don't you think? Well, thank you, Mr.
Chairman and Ranking Member, for holding this important
hearing.
I am of the opinion that basically we are hearing from one
of the leaders, the CEO, of one of the biggest corporations in
the world but yet almost entirely in an environment that is
unregulated or, for basic terms, that the lanes in which you
are supposed to operate in are very wide and broad, unlike
other industries.
Yet, at the same time--I have a chart here of the growth of
Facebook. Congratulations to you and your shareholders. It
shows that in 2009 your net value of the company was less
than--or revenue was less than a billion dollars. And then you
look all the way over to 2016; it was in excess of $26 billion.
And then in 2017 apparently you were about close to $40
billion.
Are those numbers relatively accurate about the growth and
the phenomenon of Facebook?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, they sound relatively
accurate.
Mr. Cardenas. OK.
Just so you know, it was just brought to my attention--my
staff texted me a little while ago--that the CEO of Cambridge
Analytica apparently stepped down sometime today. I don't know
if anybody of your team there whispered that to you, but my
staff just reported that. That is interesting.
The fact that the CEO of Cambridge Analytica stepped down,
does that, in and of itself, solve the issue and the
controversy around what they did?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I don't think so.
There are a couple of big issues here. One is what happened
specifically with Cambridge Analytica. How were they able to
buy data from a developer that people chose to share it with,
and how do we make sure that can't happen again?
Mr. Cardenas. But some of that information did originate
with Facebook, correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. People had it on Facebook and then chose to
share theirs and some of their friends' information with this
developer, yes.
Mr. Cardenas. Uh-huh.
Something was brought to my attention most recently, that
apparently Facebook does, in fact, actually buy information to
add or augment the information that you have on some of your
users to build around them, their profile?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we just recently announced
that we were stopping working with data brokers as part of the
ad system. It is----
Mr. Cardenas. But you did do that to build your company in
the past?
Mr. Zuckerberg. It is an industry standard ad practice.
And, recently, upon examining all of our systems, we decided
that is not a thing that we want to be part of even if everyone
else is doing that.
Mr. Cardenas. But you did engage in that as well. And not
just everybody else, but Facebook, yourselves, you did engage
in that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, until we announced that we were
shutting it down. Yes.
Mr. Cardenas. OK.
It is my understanding that when the Guardian decided to
report on the Cambridge Analytica consumer data issue, Facebook
threatened to sue them if they went forward with their story.
Did it happen something like that? Facebook kind of warned
them, like, hey, maybe you don't want to do that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I don't believe that--I think
that there may have been a specific factual inaccuracy that
we----
Mr. Cardenas. So, in other words, you checking the Guardian
and saying, ``You are not going to want to go out with that
story because it is not 100 percent factual,'' that----
Mr. Zuckerberg. On that specific point, yes.
Mr. Cardenas. OK.
But, however, they did go through with their story,
regardless of the warnings or the threats of Facebook saying
that you are not going to want to do that. When they did do
that, and only then, did Facebook actually apologize for that
incident, for that 89 million users' information unfortunately
ending up in their hands. Isn't that the case?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, you are right that we
apologized after they posted the story. They had most of the
details of what was right there, and I don't think we objected
to that.
Mr. Cardenas. Thank you.
Mr. Zuckerberg. There was a specific thing----
Mr. Cardenas. OK, but I only have a few more seconds.
My main point is this: I think it is time you, Facebook, if
you truly want to be a leader in all the senses of the word and
recognize that you can, in fact, do right by American users of
Facebook, and when it comes to information unfortunately
getting in the wrong hands, you can be a leader.
Are you committed to actually being a leader in that sense?
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time----
Mr. Cardenas. Can he give a 2-second answer?
Mr. Walden. Sure.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am definitely committed to
taking a broader view of our responsibility. That is what my
testimony is about, making sure that we just don't give people
tools but make sure that they are used for good.
Mr. Cardenas. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walden. And, with that, we will recess for about 5
minutes--10 minutes. We will recess for 10 minutes and then
resume the hearing.
[Recess.]
Mr. Walden. All right. We are going to reconvene the Energy
and Commerce Committee.
And we will go next to the gentlelady from Indiana, Mrs.
Brooks, for 4 minutes to resume questioning.
Mrs. Brooks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being here today. It is
so critically important that we hear from you and your company,
because we do believe that it is critically important for you
to be a leader in these solutions.
One thing that has been talked about just very little but I
think is very important and I want to make sure there is
appropriate attention on is how the platform of Facebook but
even other platforms--and you have mentioned it a little bit--
how you help us in this country keep our country safe from
terrorists.
I have talked with lots of people who actually continue to
remain very concerned about recruitment of their younger family
members, and now we are seeing around the globe an enhanced
recruitment of women, as well, to join terrorist organizations.
And so I am very, very concerned. I am a former U.S.
Attorney. And so, when 9/11 happened, you didn't exist;
Facebook didn't exist. But since the evolution after 9/11, we
know that Al Shabaab, al-Qaida, ISIS has used social media like
we could not even imagine. So could you please talk about that?
And then you talked about the fact that if there is content
that is objectionable or is a danger, that people report it to
you. But what if they don't? What if everybody assumes that
someone is reporting something to you?
So I need you to help assure us, as well as the American
people, what is Facebook's role, leadership role, in helping us
fight terrorism and help us stop the recruitment? Because it is
still a grave danger around the world.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, thanks for the question.
Terrorist content and propaganda has no place in our
network, and we have developed a number of tools that have now
made it so that 99 percent of the ISIS and al-Qaida content
that we take down is identified by these systems and taken down
before anyone in our system even flags it for us.
So that is an example of removing harmful content that we
are proud of and that I think is a model for other types of
harmful content as well.
Mrs. Brooks. Can I ask, though--and I appreciate that. And
I have heard you say 99 percent, and yet I didn't go out and,
you know, look for this, but yet, as recently as March 29, ISIS
content was discovered on Facebook, which included an execution
video--March 29. On April 9, there were five pages, located on
April 9, of Hezbollah content and so forth.
And so what is the mechanism that you are using? Is it
artificial intelligence? Is it the 20,000 people? What are you
using to--because it is not--I appreciate that no system is
perfect, but yet this is just within a week.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, it is a good question. And
it is a combination of technology and people.
We have a counterterrorism team at Facebook which is----
Mrs. Brooks. How large is it?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Two hundred people--just focused on
counterterrorism. And there are other content reviewers who are
reviewing content that gets flagged to them as well.
So those are folks who are working specifically on that. I
think we have capacity in 30 languages that we are working on.
And, in addition to that, we have a number of AI tools that we
are developing, like the ones that I had mentioned, that can
proactively go flag the content.
Mrs. Brooks. And so you might have those people looking for
the content. How are they helping block the recruiting?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, so they----
Mrs. Brooks. Your platform, as well as Twitter and then
WhatsApp, is how they begin to communicate, which I understand
you own. Is that correct?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mrs. Brooks. So how are we stopping the recruiting and the
communications?
Mr. Zuckerberg. So we identify what might be the patterns
of communication or messaging that they might put out and then
design systems that can proactively identify that and flag
those for our teams. That way, we can go and take those down.
Mrs. Brooks. Thank you. My time is up. I thank you, and
please continue to work with us and all the governments who are
trying to fight terrorism around the world.
Thank you.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Thank you. We will.
And, Mr. Chairman, if you don't mind, before we go to the
next question, there was something that I wanted to correct in
my testimony from earlier----
Mr. Walden. Sure.
Mr. Zuckerberg [continuing]. When I went back and talked to
my team afterwards.
I had said that if--this was in response to a question
about whether web logs that we had about a person would be in
``download your information.'' I had said that they were. And I
clarified with my team that, in fact, the web logs are not in
``download your information.'' We only store them temporarily.
And we convert the web logs into a set of ad interests that you
might be interested in those ads, and we put that in the
``download your information'' instead, and you have complete
information over that.
So I just wanted to clarify that for the record.
Mr. Walden. I appreciate that. Thank you.
We will go now to the gentleman from California, Mr. Ruiz.
Mr. Ruiz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for appearing before the
committee today.
The fact is, Mr. Zuckerberg, Facebook failed its customers.
You have said as much yourself. You have apologized, and we
appreciate that. We, as Congress, have a responsibility to
figure out what went wrong here and what could be done
differently to better protect consumers' private digital data
in the future.
So my first question for you, Mr. Zuckerberg, is, why did
Facebook not notify the FTC in 2015 when you first discovered
this had happened? And was it the legal opinion of your company
that you were under no obligation to notify the FTC, even with
the 2011 consent order in place?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, in retrospect, it was a
mistake, and we should have and I wish we had notified and told
people about it then.
Mr. Ruiz. Did you think that----
Mr. Zuckerberg. The reason why we didn't----
Mr. Ruiz [continuing]. The rules were kind of lax, that you
were sort of debating whether you needed to or something?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman, I don't believe that we
necessarily had a legal obligation to do so. I just think that
it was probably----
Mr. Ruiz. OK.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I think that it was the right thing to have
done. The reason we didn't do it at that time----
Mr. Ruiz. No, no. You answered my question.
Would you agree that for Facebook to continue to be
successful it needs to continue to have the trust of its users?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Absolutely.
Mr. Ruiz. Great.
So does this not, perhaps, strike you as a weakness with
the current system, that you are not required to notify the FTC
of a potential violation of your own consent decree with them
and that you did not have clear guidelines for what you as a
company needed to do in this situation to maintain the public's
trust and act in their best interests?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, regardless of what the laws or
regulations are that are in place, we take a broader view of
our responsibilities around privacy. And I think that we should
have notified people because it would have been the right thing
to do. And we are committed----
Mr. Ruiz. I am just trying to think of the other CEO who
might not have such a broad view and might interpret the
different legal requirements maybe differently. So that is why
I am asking these questions. I am also taking a broad view, as
a Congressman here, to try to fix this problem.
So, from what we have learned over the past 2 days of
hearings, it just doesn't seem like the FTC has the necessary
tools to do what needs to be done to protect consumer data and
consumer privacy, and we can't exclusively rely on companies to
self-regulate in the best interest of consumers.
So, Mr. Zuckerberg, would it be helpful if there was an
entity clearly tasked with overseeing how consumer data is
being collected, shared, and used and which could offer
guidelines, at least guidelines, for companies like yours to
ensure your business practices are not in violation of the law,
something like a digital consumer protection agency?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I think it is an idea that
deserves a lot of consideration. I am not the type of person
who thinks that there should be no regulation, especially
because the internet is getting to be so important in people's
lives around the world, but I think the details on this really
matter. And whether it is an agency or a law that is passed or
the FTC has certain abilities, I think that that is all
something that we should----
Mr. Ruiz. Well, one of the things that we are realizing is
that there are a lot of holes in the system, that, you know,
you don't have the toolbox to monitor 9 million apps and tens
of thousands of data collectors, and there is no specific
mechanism for you to collaborate with those that can help you
prevent these things from happening.
And so I think that, perhaps, if we started having these
discussions about what would have been helpful for you to build
your toolbox and for us to build our toolbox so that we can
prevent things like Cambridge Analytica, things like identity
theft, things like, you know, what we are seeing, what we have
heard about today--so, you know, I just want to thank you for
your thoughts and testimony.
So it is clear to me that this is the beginning of many,
many conversations on the topic, and I look forward to working
with you and the committee to better protect consumer privacy.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, we look forward to following
up too.
Mr. Walden. We will now go to the gentleman from Oklahoma,
Mr. Mullin, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And, sir, thank you for being here. I appreciate you using
the term ``Congressman'' and ``Congresswoman.'' My name is
Markwayne Mullin, and feel free to use that name.
Sir, I just want to tell you--first of all, I want to
commend you on your ability to not just invent something but to
see it through its growth. We see a lot of inventors had the
ability to do that, but to manage it and to see it through its
tremendous growth period takes a lot of talent. And by your
showing here today, you handle yourself well, so thank you on
that. And you also do that by hiring the right people, so I
commend you on doing that also. You hire people, obviously,
based on their ability to get the job done.
Real quick, a couple questions I have. And I will give you
time to answer it.
Isn't it the consumers' responsibility, to some degree, to
control the content to which they release?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I believe that people should
have the ability to choose to share their data how they want,
and they need to understand how that is working. But I agree
with what you are saying, that people want to have the ability
to move their data to another app, and we want to give them the
tools to do that.
Mr. Mullin. Right.
And does the device settings, does it really help you
protect what information is released? For instance, there has
been a lot of talk about them searching for something, maybe on
Google, and then the advertisement pops up on Facebook. Isn't
there a setting on most devices to where you can close out the
browser without Facebook interacting with that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman. On most devices, the way
the operating system is architected would prevent something
that you do in another app, like Google, from being visible to
the Facebook app.
Mr. Mullin. See, I come from the background of believing
that everything I do I assume is opened for anybody to take
when I am on the internet. I understand that there are privacy
concerns, but you are still releasing it to something farther
than a pen and pad. So, once I am on the web or I am on an app,
then that information is subject to going really anyplace. All
I can do is protect it the best I can by my settings.
And so what I am trying to get to is, as an individual, as
a user of Facebook, how can someone control keeping the content
within the realm that they want to keep it without it being
collected?
You say that, you know, you don't sell it. However, you do
sell advertisements. As a business owner, I have a demographic
that I go after, and I search advertisers that market to that
demographic. So you collect information for that purpose,
right?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes, we collect information to
make sure that the ad experience on Facebook can be relevant
and valuable to the small businesses and----
Mr. Mullin. Sure.
Mr. Zuckerberg [continuing]. Others who want to reach
people.
Mr. Mullin. Value-based. But if I am a customer or a user
of Facebook and I don't want that information to be shared, how
do I keep that from happening? Are there settings within the
app that I need to go to to block all that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes there is. There is a
setting--so if you don't want any data to be collected around
advertising, you can turn that off, and then we won't do it.
In general, we offer a lot of settings over every type of
information that you might want to share on Facebook and every
way that you might interact with the system, from hereis the
content that you put on your page, to here is who can see your
interests, to hereis how you might show up in search results if
people look for you, to hereis how you might be able to sign
into developer apps and log in with Facebook, and advertising.
And we try to make the controls as easy to understand as
possible. You know, it is a broad service. People use it for a
lot of things, so there are a number of controls, but we try to
make it as easy as possible and to put those controls in front
of people so that they can configure the experience in the way
that they want.
Mr. Mullin. Would that have kept apps from seeking our
information?
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time----
Mr. Mullin. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Thank you, Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Walden. Thank you.
We will recognize now the gentleman from California for 4
minutes.
Mr. Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being with us today. And I
know it has been a long day.
I think we can all agree that technology has outpaced the
law with respect to the protection of private information. I
wonder if you think it would be reasonable for Congress to
define the legal duty of privacy that is owed by private
companies to their customers with respect to their personal
information.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I think that that makes sense
to discuss.
And I agree with the broader point that I think you are
making, which is that the internet and technology overall is
just becoming a much more important part of all of our lives.
The companies and the technology industry are growing----
Mr. Peters. Right. That is what I mean by it is outpaced.
And I wonder--I also want to take you at your word. I
believe you are sincere that you personally place a high value
on consumer privacy and that that personal commitment is
significant at Facebook today, coming from you, given your
position. But I also observe, and you would agree, that the
performance on privacy has been inconsistent.
I wonder, you know, myself, whether that is because it is
not a bottom-line issue. It appears that the shareholders are
interested in maximizing profits. Privacy certainly doesn't
drive profits, I don't think, but also may interfere with
profits if you have to sacrifice your ad revenues because of
privacy concerns.
Would it not be appropriate for us, once we define this
duty, to assess financial penalties in a way that would
sufficiently send a signal to the shareholders and to your
employees, who you must be frustrated with too, that the
privacy you are so concerned about is a bottom-line issue at
Facebook?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, it is certainly something that
we can consider.
Although, one thing that I would push back on is I think it
is often characterized as maybe these mistakes happened because
there is some conflict between what people want and business
interests. I actually don't think that is the case. I think a
lot of these hard decisions come down to a lot of different
interests between different people.
So, for example, on the one hand, people want the ability
to sign into apps and bring some of their information and bring
some of their friends' information in order to have a social
experience, and, on the other hand, everyone wants their
information locked down and completely private. And the
question is not a business question as much as which of those
equities do you weigh more.
Mr. Peters. I think part of it is that, but part of it is
also what happened with Cambridge Analytica. Some of this data
got away from us.
And I would suggest to you that if there were financial
consequences to that that made a difference to the business,
not people dropping their Facebook accounts, that it would get
more attention. And it is not so much a business model choice.
I congratulate you on your business model. But it is that these
issues aren't getting the bottom-line attention that I think
would have made them a priority with respect to Facebook.
Let me just follow up, in my final time, on an exchange you
had with Senator Graham yesterday about regulation. And I think
the Senator said, do you as a company welcome regulation? You
said, if it is the right regulation, then yes. Question: Do you
think that the Europeans have it right? And you said, I think
they get some things right.
I wanted you to elaborate on what the Europeans got right
and what do you think they got wrong.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, well, there are a lot of
things that the Europeans do, and I think that--I think GDPR,
in general, is going to be a very positive step for the
internet. And it codifies--a lot of the things in there are
things that we have done for a long time. Some of them are
things that I think would be good steps for us to take.
So, for example, the controls that this requires are
generally controls, privacy controls, that we have offered
around the world for years. Putting the tools in front of
people repeatedly, not just having them in settings but putting
them in front of people and making sure that people understand
what the controls are and that they get affirmative consent, I
think is a good thing to do that we have done periodically in
the past, but I think it makes sense to do more.
Mr. Peters. Great. Anything you think they----
Mr. Zuckerberg. And I think that is something that the GDPR
will require us to do and will be positive.
Mr. Peters. Anything you think they got wrong?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I need to think about that more.
Mr. Peters. Well, I would appreciate it if you could
respond in writing.
I, again, really appreciate you being here.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walden. Thank you.
We will go now to the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr.
Hudson, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Hudson. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being here. This is a long
day. You are here voluntarily, and we sure appreciate you being
here.
I can say from my own experience, I have hosted two events
with Facebook in my district in North Carolina, working with
small business and finding ways they can increase their
customer base on Facebook, and it has been very beneficial to
us. So I thank you for that.
I do want to pivot slightly and frame the discussion in
another light for my question. One of the greatest honors I
have is I represent the men and women at Fort Bragg, the
epicenter of the universe, home of the Airborne, Special
Operations. You visited last year.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I did.
Mr. Hudson. Very well-received. So you understand that, due
to the sensitive nature of some of the operations these
soldiers conduct, that many are discouraged or even prohibited
from having a social media presence.
However, there are others who still have profiles. There
are some who may have deleted their profiles upon entering
military service. Many have family members who have Facebook
profiles. And, as we have learned, each one of these users'
information may be shared without their consent.
There is no way that Facebook can guarantee the safety of
this information on another company's server if they sell this
information. If private information can be gathered by apps
without explicit consent of the user, they are almost asking to
be hacked.
Are you aware of the national security concerns that would
come from allowing those who seek to harm our Nation access to
information, such as the geographical location of members of
our armed services? Is this something that you are looking at?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not specifically aware of
that threat, but, in general, there are a number of national
security and election-integrity-type issues that we focus on.
And we try to take a very broad view of that. And the more
input that we can get from the intelligence community, as well,
encouraging us to look into specific things, the more
effectively we could do that work.
Mr. Hudson. Great. Well, I would love to follow up with you
on that.
It has been said many times here that you refer to Facebook
as a platform for all ideas. I know you have heard from many,
yesterday and today, about concerns regarding Facebook
censorship of content, particularly content that may promote
Christian beliefs or conservative political beliefs. I have to
bring up Diamond and Silk again, because they are actually from
my district, but I think you have addressed these concerns.
But I think it has also become very apparent, and I hope
that it has become very apparent to you, that this is a very
serious concern. I actually asked on my Facebook page for my
constituents to give me ideas of things they would like me to
ask you today, and the most common question was about personal
privacy.
So this is something that I think there is an issue--there
is an issue that your company, in terms of trust with
consumers, that I think you need to deal with. I think you
recognize that, based on your testimony today.
But my question to you is, what is the standard that
Facebook uses to determine what is offensive or controversial?
And how has that standard been applied across Facebook's
platform?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, this is an important question.
So there are a couple of standards. The strongest one is things
that will cause physical harm or threats of physical harm. But
then there is a broader standard of hate speech and speech that
might make people feel just broadly uncomfortable or unsafe in
the community.
Mr. Hudson. That is probably the most difficult to define,
so I guess my question is----
Mr. Zuckerberg. It is very----
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. What standards do you apply to try
to determine what is hate speech versus what is just speech you
may disagree with?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, that is a very important
question and, I think, is one that we struggle with
continuously. And the question of what is hate speech versus
what is legitimate political speech is, I think, something that
we get criticized both from the left and the right on, on what
the definitions are that we have.
It is nuanced, and we try to lay this out in our community
standards, which are public documents that we can make sure
that you and your office get to look through the definitions on
this. But this is an area where I think society's sensibilities
are also shifting quickly. And it is also very different in
different----
Mr. Hudson. I am just about out of time here. I hate to cut
you off, but let me just say that, you know, based on the
statistics Mr. Scalise shared and the anecdotes we can provide
you, it seems like there is still a challenge when it comes to
conservative----
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's----
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. And I hope you will address that.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I agree.
Mr. Hudson. With that, Mr. Chairman, I will stop talking.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
We now go to the gentleman from New York, Mr. Collins, for
4 minutes.
Mr. Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I wasn't sure where I would be going with this, but
when you are number 48 out of 54 Members, you know, you can do
a lot of listening, and I have tried to do that today. And to
frame where I am now, I think--first of all, thank you for
coming.
And there is a saying, you don't know what you know until
you know it. And I really think you have done a great benefit
to Facebook, and yourself in particular, as we now have heard,
without a doubt, Facebook doesn't sell data. I think the
narrative would be: Of course you sell data. And now we know
all, across America, you don't sell data. I think that is good
for you, a very good clarification.
The other one is that the whole situation we are here is
because a third-party app developer, Aleksandr Kogan, didn't
follow through on the rules. He was told he can't sell the
data, he gathered the data, and then he did what he was not
supposed to, and he sold that data. And it is very hard to
anticipate a bad actor doing what they are doing until after
they have done it. And, clearly, you took actions after 2014.
So one real quick question is, What did change--in, you
know, 10 or 20 or 30 seconds, what data was being collected
before you locked down the platform, and how did that change to
today?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, thank you.
So, before 2014 when we announced the change, someone could
sign into an app and share some of their data but also could
share some basic information about their friends. And, in 2014,
the major change was we said, now you are not going to be able
to share any information about your friends.
So, if you and your friend both happen to be playing a game
together or on an app listening to music together, then that
app could have some information from both of you, because you
each had signed in and authorized that app, but, other than
that, people wouldn't be able to share information from their
friends.
So the basic issue here, where 300,000 people used this
poll and the app and then ultimately sold it to Cambridge
Analytica and Cambridge Analytica had access to as many as 87
million people's information, wouldn't be possible today.
Today, if 300,000 people used an app, the app might have
information about 300,000 people.
Mr. Collins. Yes. And I think that is a very good
clarification as well, because people are wondering, how does
300,000 become 87 million? So that is also something that is
good to know.
And in, you know, I guess my last minute, as I have heard
the tone here, I have to give you all the credit in the world.
I could tell from the tone--we would say ``the other side,''
sometimes, when we point to our left. But when the
Representative from Illinois, to quote her, said, ``Who is
going to protect us from Facebook,'' I mean, that threw me back
in my chair. I mean, that was certainly an aggressive--we will
use the polite word, ``aggressive,''--but, I think, out-of-
bounds kind of comment. Just my opinion.
And I have said--I was interviewed by a couple of folks in
the break, and I said, you know, as I am listening to you
today, I am quite confident that you truly are doing good. You
believe in what you are doing. Two-point-two billion people are
using your platform. And I sincerely know in my heart that you
do believe in keeping all ideas equal, and you may vote a
certain way or not, but that doesn't matter. You have 27,000
employees. And I think the fact is that you are operating under
a Federal Trade Commission consent decree from 2011. That is a
real thing, and it goes for 20 years.
So, when someone said, do we need more regulations, do we
need more legislation, I said no. Right now, what we have is
Facebook with a CEO whose mind is in the right place, doing the
best you can with 27,000 people. But the consent decree does
what it does. I mean, there would be significant financial
penalties were Facebook to ignore that consent decree.
So I think, as I am hearing this meeting going back and
forth, I, for one, think it was beneficial. It is good. I don't
think we need more regulations and legislation now. And I want
to congratulate you, I think, on doing a good job here today
and presenting your case, and we now know things we didn't know
beforehand. So thank you again.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Thank you.
Mr. Walden. OK. Now I think we go next in order to Mr.
Walberg, actually, who was here when the gavel dropped. So we
will go to Mr. Walberg for 4 minutes.
Mr. Walberg. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate
that.
And, Mr. Zuckerberg, I appreciate you being here as well.
It has been interesting to listen to all of the comments, from
both sides of the aisle, to get an idea of the breadth, length,
depth, the vastness of our world wide web, social media, and,
more specifically, Facebook.
I want to ask three starter questions. I don't think they
will take a long answer, but I will let you answer.
Earlier, you indicated that there were bad actors that
triggered your platform policy changes in 2014, but you didn't
identify who those bad actors were. Who were they?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I don't, sitting here today,
remember a lot of the specifics of early on. But we saw,
generally, a bunch of app developers who were asking for
permissions to access people's data in ways that weren't
connected to the functioning of an app. So they would just say,
OK, if you want to log into my app, you would have to share all
this content even though the app doesn't actually use that in
any reasonable way.
So we looked at that and said, hey, this isn't right, or we
should review these apps and make sure that if an app developer
is going to ask someone to access certain data that they
actually have a reason why they want to get access to it. And,
over time, we have made a series of changes that culminated in
the major change in 2014 that I referenced before, where
ultimately we made it so now a person can sign in but not bring
their friends' information with them anymore.
Mr. Walberg. OK.
Secondly, is there any way--any way--that Facebook can,
with any level of certainty, assure Facebook users that every
single app on its platform is not misusing their data?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, it would be difficult to ever
guarantee that any single--that there are no bad actors.
Mr. Walberg. OK.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Every problem around security is sort of an
arms race, right? You have people who are trying to abuse
systems, and our responsibility is to make that as hard as
possible and to take the necessary precautions for a company of
our scale. And I think that the responsibility that we have is
growing with our scale, and we need to make sure that we----
Mr. Walberg. And I think that is an adequate answer. It is
a truthful answer.
Can you assure me that ads and content are not being denied
based on particular views?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes, politically. Although, I
think what you--when I hear that, what I hear is, kind of,
normal political speech. We certainly are not going to allow
ads for terrorist content, for example, so we would be banning
those views. But I think that that is something that we would
all expect.
Mr. Walberg. Let me push it here, and I wanted to bring up
a screen grab that we had. Again, going back to Representative
Upton earlier on, it was his constituent, but was my
legislative director for a time. It was his campaign ad that he
was going to boost his post, and he was rejected. He was
rejected as being--it said here, ad wasn't approved because it
doesn't follow advertising policies. ``We don't allow ads that
contain shocking, disrespectful, or sensational content,
including ads that depict violence or threats of violence.''
Now, as I read that--and I also know that you have since,
or Facebook has since declared, no, that was a mistake, an
algorithm problem that went on there. But that is our concern
that we have, that it wouldn't be because he had his picture
with a veteran, it wouldn't be because he wanted to reduce
spending, but pro-life, Second Amendment, those things, and
conservative. That causes us some concerns.
So I guess what I am saying here, I believe that we have to
have a light touch in regulation. And when I hear some of my
friends on the other side of the aisle decry the fact of what
is going on now and they were high-fiving what took place in
2012 with President Obama and what he was capable of doing in
bringing in and grabbing for use in a political way, I would
say the best thing we can do is have these light-of-day
hearings, let you self-regulate as much as possible, with a
light touch coming from us, but recognizing that, in the end,
your Facebook subscribers are----
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time----
Mr. Walberg [continuing]. Going to tell you what you need
to do.
And so thank you for your time.
And thank you for the time you have given me.
Mr. Walden. Yep.
I now recognize the gentlelady from California, Mrs.
Walters, for 4 minutes.
Mrs. Walters. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being here.
One of my biggest concerns is the misuse of consumer data
and what controls users have over their information. You have
indicated that Facebook users have granular control over their
own content and who can see it.
As you can see on the screen, on the left is a screen shot
of the on/off choice for apps, which must be on for users to
use apps that require a Facebook login and which allows apps to
collect your information.
On the right is a screen shot of what a user sees when they
want to change the privacy settings on a post, photo, or other
content. Same account, same user. But which control governs,
the app platform access or the user's decision as to who they
want to see a particular post?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Sorry. Could you repeat the----
Mrs. Walters. So which app governs, OK, or which control
governs, the app platform access or the user's decision as to
who they want to see a particular post? So if you look up there
on the screen.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes. Congresswoman, so, when you are using
the service, if you share a photo, for example, and you say,
``I only want my friends to see it,'' then in News Feed and
Facebook, only your friends are going to see it. If you then go
to a website and then you want to sign into that website, that
website can ask you and say, ``Hey, here are the things that I
want to get access to in order for you to use the website.'' If
you sign in after seeing that screen where the website is
asking for certain information, then you are also authorizing
that website to have access to that information.
If you have turned off the platform completely, which is
what the control is that you have on the left, then you
wouldn't be able to sign into another website. You would have
to go reactivate this before that would even work.
Mrs. Walters. OK. Do you think that the average Facebook
user understands that is how it works, and how would they find
this out?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I think that these--that the
settings when you are signing into an app are quite clear in
terms of every time you go to sign into an app, you have to go
through a whole screen that says: Here is the app; here are
your friends who use it; here are the pieces of information
that it would like to have access to. You make a decision
whether you sign in, yes or no, and until you say, ``I want to
sign in,'' nothing gets shared.
Similarly, in terms of sharing content, every single time
that you would upload a photo, you have to make a decision. It
is right there at the top. It says, ``Are you sharing this with
your friends or publicly or with some group,'' and every single
time that is quite clear.
So, in those cases, yes, I think that this is quite clear.
Mrs. Walters. OK. So these user control options are in
different locations. And it seems to me that putting all
privacy control options in a single location would be more
user-friendly. Why aren't they in the same location?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congresswoman, we typically do two
things. We have a settings page that has all of your settings
in one place in case you want to go and play around or
configure your settings. But the more important thing is
putting the settings in line when you are trying to make a
decision.
So, if you are going to share a photo now, we think that
your setting about who you want to share that photo with should
be in line right there. If you are going to sign into an app,
we think that the--it should be very clear right in line when
you are signing into the app what permissions that app is
asking for. So we do both. It is both in one place in settings
if you want to go to it, and it is in line in the relevant
place.
Mrs. Walters. OK. California has been heralded by many on
this committee for its privacy initiatives. Given that you and
other major tech companies are in California and we are still
experiencing privacy issues, how do you square the two?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Sorry. Can you repeat that?
Mrs. Walters. So, given that you and other major tech
companies are in California and we are still experiencing
privacy issues, how do you square the two?
Mr. Zuckerberg. What was the other piece?
Mrs. Walters. California has been heralded by many on this
committee for its privacy initiatives.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congresswoman, I think that privacy
is not something that you can ever--our understanding of the
issues between people and how they interact online only grows
over time.
So I think we will figure out what the social norms are and
the rules that we want to put in place, and then, 5 years from
now, we will come back and we will have learned more things,
and either that will just be that social norms have evolved and
the company's practices have evolved or we will put rules in
place.
But I think that our understanding of this is going to
evolve over quite a long time. So I would expect that even if,
you know, a State like California is forward leaning, that is
not necessarily going to mean that we fully understand
everything or have solved all the issues.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time has expired.
I recognize the gentlelady from Michigan, Mrs. Dingell, for
4 minutes.
Mrs. Dingell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zuckerberg, thank you for your patience.
I am a daily Facebook user, much to my staff's distress. I
do it myself. And because we need a little humor, I am even
married to a 91-year-old man that is the king of Twitter. But I
know Facebook's value. I have used it for a long time. But with
that value also comes obligation.
We have all been sitting here for more than 4 hours. Some
things are striking during this conversation. As CEO, you
didn't know some key facts. You didn't know about major court
cases regarding your privacy policies against your company. You
didn't know that the FTC doesn't have fining authority and that
Facebook could not have received fines for the 2011 consent
order.
You didn't know what a shadow profile was. You didn't know
how many apps you need to audit. You did not know how many
other firms have been sold data by Dr. Kogan other than
Cambridge Analytica and Eunoia Technologies, even though you
were asked that question yesterday. And, yes, we were all
paying attention yesterday. You don't even know all the kinds
of information Facebook is collecting from its own users.
Here is what I do know: You have trackers all over the web.
On practically every website you go to, we all see the Facebook
like or Facebook share buttons. And with the Facebook pixel,
people browsing the internet may not even see that Facebook
logo. It doesn't matter whether you have a Facebook account.
Through those tools, Facebook is able to collect information
from all of us.
So I want to ask you, how many Facebook like buttons are
there on non-Facebook web pages?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I don't know the answer to
that off the top of my head, but we will get back to you.
Mrs. Dingell. Is the number over 100 million?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I believe we have served the like button on
pages more than that, but I don't know the number of pages that
have the like button on actively.
Mrs. Dingell. How many Facebook share buttons are there on
non-Facebook web pages?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I don't know the answer to that exactly off
the top of my head either, but that is something that we can
follow up with you on.
Mrs. Dingell. And we think that is over 100 million likely.
How many chunks of Facebook pixel code are there on non-
Facebook web pages?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, you are asking some specific
stats that I don't know off the top of my head, but we can
follow up with you and get back to you on all of these.
Mrs. Dingell. Can you commit to get back to the committee?
The European Union is asking for 72 hours on transparency. Do
you think we could get that back in committee in 72 hours?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, I will talk to my team, and
we will follow up.
Mrs. Dingell. I know you are still reviewing, but do you
know now whether there are other fourth parties that had access
to the data from someone other than Dr. Kogan, or is this
something we are going to find out in a press release down the
road?
I think what worries all of us--and you have heard it
today--is it has taken almost 3 years to hear about that. And I
am convinced that there are other people out there.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congresswoman, as I have said a number of
times, we are now going to investigate every single app that
had access to a large amount of people's information in the
past before we locked down the platform.
I do imagine that we will find some apps that were either
doing something suspicious or misused people's data. If we find
them, then we will ban them from the platform, take action to
make sure that they delete the data, and make sure that
everyone involved is informed.
Mrs. Dingell. And you make it public quickly, not 3 years?
Mr. Zuckerberg. As soon as we find them.
Mrs. Dingell. So I am going to conclude because my time is
almost up, that I worry that when I hear companies value our
privacy, that it is meant in monetary terms not in the moral
obligation to protect it. Data protection and privacy are like
clean air and clean water. There need to be clear rules of the
road.
Mr. Walden. The gentlelady's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr.
Costello, for 4 minutes.
Mr. Costello. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would echo Congressman Collins' comments as well.
Mr. Zuckerberg, I think that we, as Americans, have a
concept of digital privacy rights in privacy that aren't
necessarily codified, and we are trying to sift through how do
we actually make privacy rights in a way that are intelligible
for tech and understandable to the community at large. And so
my questions are oriented in that fashion.
First, if you look at GDPR, the EU privacy--the law that is
about to take effect, what pieces of that do you feel would be
properly placed in American jurisprudence, in other words,
right to erasure, right to get our data back, right to rectify?
Could you share with us how you see that playing out, not just
for you but for the smaller companies, because I do believe you
have a sincere interest in seeing small tech companies prosper?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, Congressman.
So there are a few parts of GDPR that I think are important
and good. One is making sure that people have control over how
each piece of information that they share is used. So people
should have the ability to know what a company knows about
them, to control and have a setting about who can see it, and
to be able to delete it whenever they want.
The second set of things is making sure that people
actually understand what the tools are that are available, so
not just having it in some settings page somewhere but put the
tools in front of people so that they can make a decision.
And that both builds trust and makes it so that people's
experiences are configured in the way that they want. That is
something that we have done a number of times over the years at
Facebook, but with GDPR, we will now be doing more and around
the whole world.
The third piece is there are some very sensitive
technologies that I think are important to enable innovation
around, like face recognition, but that you want to make sure
that you get special consent for, right.
If we make it too hard for American companies to innovate
in areas like facial recognition, then we will lose to Chinese
companies and other companies around the world where--that are
able to innovate on that. But----
Mr. Costello. Do you feel you should be able to deploy AI
for facial recognition for a non-FB user?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I think that that is a good
question, and I think that this is something that probably--
that we should--that people should have control over how it is
used and that we are going to be rolling out and asking people
whether they want us to use it for them around the world as
part of this push that is upcoming.
But I think, in general, for sensitive technologies like
that, I do think you want a special consent. I think that would
be a valuable thing to consider.
Mr. Costello. Right. Two quick ones. Is Facebook, in
utilizing that platform, ever a publisher, in your mind?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman----
Mr. Costello. You would say you are responsible for
content, right?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Costello. You said that yesterday. Are you ever a
publisher, as the term is legally used?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I am not familiar with how the
term is legally used.
Mr. Costello. Would you ever be legally responsible for the
content that is put onto your platform?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, let me put it this way:
There is content that we find, specifically in video today----
Mr. Costello. Right.
Mr. Zuckerberg. And when we are commissioning a video to be
created, I certainly think we have full responsibility----
Mr. Costello. Agree.
Mr. Zuckerberg [continuing]. Of owning that content.
Mr. Costello. Which is what, I think, Chairman Walden's
question was upfront. Right.
Mr. Zuckerberg. But the vast majority of the content on
Facebook is not something that we commissioned. For that, I
think our responsibility is to make sure that the content on
Facebook is not harmful, that people are seeing things that are
relevant to them and that encourage interaction and building
relationships with the people around them. And that, I think,
is the primary responsibility that we have.
Mr. Costello. My big concern--I am running out of time--is
someone limits their data to not being used for something that
it might potentially be used for that they have no idea what--
how it might actually socially benefit.
And I am out of time, but I would like for you to share at
a later point in time how the data that you get might be
limited by a user and your inability to use that data may
actually prevent the kind of innovation that would bring about
positive social change in this country? Because I do believe
that was the intention and objective of your company, and I do
believe you perform it very, very well in a lot of ways.
Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Thank you.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman yields back.
I go now to the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Carter, for 4
minutes.
Mr. Carter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Zuckerberg, for being here. You are almost
done. When you get to me, that means you are getting close to
the end, so congratulations. Thank you for being here. We do
appreciate it.
You know, you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the
privacy, people's information and the privacy and the fact that
we had--you had this lapse. You know all about fake news. You
know all about foreign intervention. I know you are concerned
about that. I want to talk about just a few different subjects,
if you will.
And I would like to ask you just some yes-or-no questions.
Please excuse my redundancy. I know that some Members have
already asked you about some of these subjects, but I would
like to ask you, Mr. Zuckerberg, did you know that 91 people
die every day because of opioid addiction? Yes or no. Did you
know that? 91 people every day?
Mr. Zuckerberg. I did not know that specifically, but I
know it is a terrible----
Mr. Carter. Did you know that it is estimated to be between
2.5 million to 11.5 million people in this country right now
who are addicted to opioids?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes.
Mr. Carter. OK. Did you know that the average age of
Americans has decreased for the first time in decades as a
result of what people are saying is a result of the opioid
epidemic?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Yes, especially among certain demographics.
Mr. Carter. Absolutely.
I ask you this because some of the other Members have
mentioned that about the ads for fentanyl and other illicit
drugs that are on the internet and where you can buy them and
about your responsibility to monitor that and make sure that is
not happening.
I had the opportunity this past week to speak at the
Prescription Drug Abuse and Heroin Summit in Atlanta that
Representative Hal Rogers started some years ago. Also, we had
the FDA Commissioner there, and he mentioned the fact that he
is going to be meeting with CEOs of internet companies to
discuss this problem. I hope that you will be willing to at
least have someone there to meet with him so that we can get
your help in this. This is extremely important.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I will make sure that someone
is there. This is an important issue.
Mr. Carter. OK. Let me ask you another question, Mr.
Zuckerberg. Did you know that there are conservation groups
that have provided evidence to the Securities and Exchange
Commission that endangered wildlife goods, in preliminary
ivory, is extensively traded on closed groups on Facebook?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I was not specifically aware
of that, but I think we know that there are issues with content
like this that we need to do more proactive monitoring for.
Mr. Carter. All right. Well, let me ask you, did you know
that there are some conservation groups that assert that there
is so much ivory being sold on Facebook that it is literally
contributing to the extinction of the elephant species?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I had not heard that.
Mr. Carter. OK. And did you know that the American--or
excuse me, the Motion Picture Association of America is having
problems with piracy of movies and of their products and that
not only is this challenging their profits but their very
existence. Did you know that that was a problem?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I believe that has been an
issue for a long time.
Mr. Carter. It has been. It has been. So you did know that?
Well, the reason I ask you this is that I just want to make
sure that I understand you have an understanding of a
commitment. Look, you said earlier--it may have been
yesterday--that hate speech is difficult to discern. And I get
that. And I understand that, and you are absolutely right. But
these things are not, and we need your help with this.
Now, I will tell you, there are Members of this body who
would like to see the internet monitored as a utility. I am not
one of those. I believe that that would be the worst thing we
could do. I believe it would stifle innovation.
I don't think you can legislate morality, and I don't want
to try to do that. But we need a commitment from you that these
things that can be controlled like this, that you will help us
and that you will work with law enforcement to help us with
this.
Look, you love America. I know that. We all know that. We
need your help here. I don't want Congress to have to act. You
want to see a mess, you let the Federal Government get into
this. You will see a mess, I assure you. Please, we need your
help with this, and I just need that commitment. Can I get that
commitment?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, yes, we take this very
seriously. That is a big part of the reason overall, these
content issues, why, by the end of this year, we are going to
have more than 20,000 people working on security and content
review, and we need to build more tools too. I agree.
Mr. Carter. Thank you very much.
Mr. Walden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Duncan for 4 minutes.
Mr. Duncan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Usually I am last, but today I think we have one behind me
that came in late. Mr. Zuckerberg----
Mr. Walden. Only by 2 minutes did he come in late.
Mr. Duncan [continuing]. I want to thank you for all the
work you have done, and I want to let you know that I have been
on Facebook since 2007 and started as a State legislator, used
Facebook to communicate with my constituents, and it has been
an invaluable tool for me in communicating. We can actually do
in real time multiple issues as we deal with them here in
Congress, answer questions. It is almost like a townhall in
real time.
I also want to tell you that your staff here at the
Governmental Affairs Office, Chris Herndon and others, do a
fabulous job in keeping us informed. So I want to thank you for
that.
Before this hearing, when we heard about it, we asked our
constituents and our friends on Facebook what would they want
me to ask you. And the main response was addressing the
perceived and, in many instances, confirmed bias and viewpoint
discrimination against Christians and conservatives on your
platform.
Today, listening to this, I think the two main issues are
user privacy and censorship. The Constitution of the United
States and the First Amendment says Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof, nor will it abridge the freedom of speech, of
the press, the right of people to assemble or address the
Congress for redress of grievances--petition Congress for
redress of grievances.
I have got a copy of the Constitution I want to give you at
the end of this hearing. The reason I say all that, this is
maybe a rhetorical question, but why not have a community
standard for free speech and free exercise of religion that is
simply a mirror of the First Amendment with algorithms that are
viewed--that have a viewpoint that is neutral? Why not do that?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, I think that we can all
agree that certain content like terrorist propaganda should
have no place on our network. And the First Amendment, my
understanding of it, is that that kind of speech is allowed in
the world. I just don't think that it is the kind of thing that
we want to allow to spread on the internet.
So, once you get into that, you are already--you are
deciding that you take this value that you care about safety
and that we don't want people to be able to spread information
that could cause harm. And I think that that--our general
responsibility is to allow the broadest spectrum of free
expression as we can, and that is why----
Mr. Duncan. And I appreciate that answer. You are right
about propaganda and other issues there.
And I believe the Constitution generally applies to
Government and says that Congress shall make no law
respecting--talks about religion, and then it won't abridge the
freedom of speech or the press.
But the standard has been applied to private businesses,
whether those are newspapers or other media platform. And I
would argue that social media has now become a media platform
to be considered in a lot of ways the same as other press
media. So I think the First Amendment probably does apply and
will apply.
Let me ask you this: What will you do to restore the First
Amendment rights of Facebook users and ensure that all users
are treated equally, regardless of whether they are
conservative, moderate, liberal, or whatnot?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Well, Congressman, I think that we make a
number of mistakes in content review today that I don't think
only focus on one political persuasion. And I think it is
unfortunate that, when those happen, people think that we are
focused on them. And it happens in different political groups.
I mean, we have----
Mr. Duncan. But in the essence of time, conservatives are
the ones that raise the awareness that their content has been
pulled. I don't see the same awareness being raised by liberal
organizations, liberal candidates, or liberal policy
statements.
And I think you have been made aware of this over the last
2 days. You probably need to go back and make sure that those
things are treated equal, and I would appreciate you do that.
Again, I appreciate the platform. I appreciate the work you do,
and we stand willing and able to help you here in Congress
because Facebook is an invaluable part of what we do and how we
communicate. So thanks for being here.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Thank you.
Mr. Duncan. I yield back.
Mr. Walden. And for our final 4 minutes of questioning
comes from Mr. Cramer of North Dakota, former head of the
public utility commission there. We welcome your comments. Go
ahead.
Mr. Cramer. Thank you.
And thanks for being here, Mr. Zuckerberg.
You know, ``don't eat the fruit of this tree'' is the only
regulation that was ever initiated before people started
abusing freedom. Since then, millions of regulations, laws, and
rules have been created in response to an abuse of freedom.
Oftentimes that response is more extreme than the abuse, and
that is what I fear could happen based on some of the things I
have heard today in response to this.
So this national discussion is very important, first of
all, not only for these last 2 days but that it continues, lest
we over respond, OK. Now, that said, I think that the consumer
and industry, whatever industry it is, your company or others
like yours, share that responsibility. So I appreciate both
your patience and your preparation coming in today.
But in response to the questions from a few of my
colleagues related to the illegal drug ads, I have to admit
that there were times when I was thinking, ``His answers aren't
very reassuring to me,'' and I am wondering what your answer
would be as to how quickly you could take down an illegal drug
site if there was a $1 million per-post per-day regulation fine
tied to it.
In other words, give it your best. I mean, don't wait for
somebody to flag it. Look for it. Make it a priority. It is
certainly far more dangerous than a couple of conservative
Christian women on TV. So, please, be better than this.
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, I agree that this is very
important, and I miscommunicated if I left the impression that
we weren't proactively going to work on tools to take down this
content and we are only going to rely on people to flag it for
us.
Right now, I think underway we have efforts to focus not
only on ads, which has been most of the majority of the
questions, but a lot of people share this stuff in groups too
and the free part of the product that aren't paid, and we need
to get that content down too.
I understand how big of an issue this is. Unfortunately,
the enforcement isn't perfect. We do need to make it more
proactive, and I am committed to doing that.
Mr. Cramer. And I don't expect it to be perfect, but I do
expect it to be a higher priority than conservative thought.
Speaking of that, I think in some of your responses to
Senator Cruz yesterday and some responses today related to
liberal bias, you have sort of implied the fact that while you
have these 20,000 enforcement folks, you have implied that
Silicon Valley--perhaps this was more yesterday--that Silicon
Valley is a very liberal place and so the talent pool perhaps
leans left in its bias.
Let me suggest that you look someplace perhaps in the
middle of the North American content for some people. Maybe
even your next big investment of capital could be in the--
someplace like, say, Bismarck, North Dakota, or Williston,
where you have visited, where people tend to be pretty
commonsense and probably perhaps even more diverse than
Facebook in some respects. If the talent pool is a problem,
then let's look for a different talent pool, and maybe we can
even have a nice big center someplace.
I want to then close with this, because you testified
yesterday--and the opening statement by the ranking member of
the committee bothered me in that suddenly there is this great
concern that the providers, particularly Facebook, other large
edge providers and content providers, should be hyperregulated,
when all along we, as Republicans, have been talking about net
neutrality. We talked about, earlier this year or last year,
when we rolled back the internet service provider privacy stuff
that seemed tilted heavily in your favor and against them.
Don't you think that ubiquitous platforms like Google and
Facebook and many others should have the same responsibility to
privacy as an internet service provider?
Mr. Zuckerberg. Congressman, let me answer that in a
second. And before I get to that, on your last point, the
content reviewers who we have are not primarily located in
Silicon Valley. So I think that was an important point.
Mr. Cramer. It is.
Mr. Zuckerberg. I do worry about the general bias of people
in Silicon Valley, but the majority of the folks doing content
review are around the world in different places.
To your question about net neutrality, I think that there
is a big difference between internet service providers and
platforms on top of them. And the big reason is that--well, I
just think about my own experience.
When I was starting Facebook I had one choice of an
internet service provider. And if I had to potentially pay
extra in order to make it so that people could have Facebook as
an option for something that they used, then I am not sure that
we would be here today.
Platforms, there are just many more. So it may be true that
a lot of people choose to use Facebook. The average American, I
think, uses about eight different communication and social
network apps to stay connected to people.
It just is clearly correct or true that there are more
choices on platforms. So even though they can reach large
scale, I think the pressure of just having one or two in a
place does require us to think a little bit differently about
that.
Mr. Cramer. I will submit to you that I have fewer choices
on the platform--in your type of a platform than I do internet
service providers even in rural North Dakota.
With that, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walden. I suppose you don't want to hang around for
another round of questions. Just kidding.
Mr. Zuckerberg, your staff, several of them just passed out
behind you.
You know, on a serious note, as we close, I would welcome
your suggestions of other technology CEOs we might benefit from
hearing from in the future for a hearing on these issues as we
look at net neutrality, as we look at privacy issues. These are
all important. They are very controversial. We are fully
cognizant of that. We want to get it right. And so we
appreciate your comments and testimony today.
There are no other Members that haven't asked you
questions, and we are not doing a second round. So, seeing
that, I just want to thank you for being here. I know we agreed
to be respectful of your time. You have been respectful of our
questions, and we appreciate your answers and your candor.
As you know, some of our Members weren't able to ask all
the questions they had, so they will probably submit those in
writing, and we would like getting answers to those back in a
timely manner.
I would also like to include the following documents be
submitted into the record by unanimous consent: a letter from
American Civil Liberties Union; a letter from NetChoice; a
letter from the Vietnam Veterans of America, which I referenced
in my opening remarks; a letter from Public Knowledge; a letter
and an FTC complaint from the Electronic Privacy Information
Center; a letter from the Motion Picture Association of
America; a letter from ACT, the App Association; a letter from
the Committee for Justice; a letter from the Trans Atlantic
Consumer Dialogue; and a letter from the civil society groups;
and a letter from the National Council of Negro Women.
[The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
Mr. Walden. Pursuant to committee rules, I remind Members
they have 10 business days to submit additional questions for
the record. And I ask that the witness submit their responses
within 10 business days upon receipt of those questions.
Without objections, our committee is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 2:59 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
[Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[Questions submitted for the record and responses from
Facebook, Inc., are saved in committee records and are
available at https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/
ByEvent.aspx?EventID=108090.]
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