[House Hearing, 115 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
PERSPECTIVES ON MIXED MARTIAL ARTS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIGITAL COMMERCE AND CONSUMER PROTECTION
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
NOVEMBER 9, 2017
__________
Serial No. 115-76
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Printed for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce
energycommerce.house.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
28-335 WASHINGTON : 2018
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
GREG WALDEN, Oregon
Chairman
JOE BARTON, Texas FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
Vice Chairman Ranking Member
FRED UPTON, Michigan BOBBY L. RUSH, Illinois
JOHN SHIMKUS, Illinois ANNA G. ESHOO, California
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee GENE GREEN, Texas
STEVE SCALISE, Louisiana DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio MICHAEL F. DOYLE, Pennsylvania
CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
GREGG HARPER, Mississippi G.K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina
LEONARD LANCE, New Jersey DORIS O. MATSUI, California
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky KATHY CASTOR, Florida
PETE OLSON, Texas JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
DAVID B. McKINLEY, West Virginia JERRY McNERNEY, California
ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois PETER WELCH, Vermont
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida PAUL TONKO, New York
BILL JOHNSON, Ohio YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
BILLY LONG, Missouri DAVID LOEBSACK, Iowa
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana KURT SCHRADER, Oregon
BILL FLORES, Texas JOSEPH P. KENNEDY, III,
SUSAN W. BROOKS, Indiana Massachusetts
MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma TONY CARDENAS, California
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina RAUL RUIZ, California
CHRIS COLLINS, New York SCOTT H. PETERS, California
KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
TIM WALBERG, Michigan
MIMI WALTERS, California
RYAN A. COSTELLO, Pennsylvania
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina
Subcommittee on Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio
Chairman
JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
Ranking Member
GREGG HARPER, Mississippi BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
Vice Chairman YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
FRED UPTON, Michigan TONY CARDENAS, California
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
LEONARD LANCE, New Jersey DORIS O. MATSUI, California
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky PETER WELCH, Vermont
DAVID B. McKINLEY, West Virgina JOSEPH P. KENNEDY, III,
ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois Massachusetts
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida GENE GREEN, Texas
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey (ex
MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma officio)
MIMI WALTERS, California
RYAN A. COSTELLO, Pennsylvania
GREG WALDEN, Oregon (ex officio)
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hon. Robert E. Latta, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Ohio, opening statement..................................... 1
Prepared statement........................................... 2
Hon. Markwayne Mullin, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Oklahoma, opening statement........................... 3
Hon. Janice D. Schakowsky, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Illinois, opening statement........................... 4
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
State of New Jersey, opening statement......................... 5
Hon. Greg Walden, a Representative in Congress from the State of
Oregon, prepared statement..................................... 62
Witnesses
Marc Ratner, Vice President of Regulatory Affairs, UFC........... 7
Prepared statement........................................... 10
Greg Sirb, Executive Director, Pennsylvania State Athletic
Commission..................................................... 15
Prepared statement........................................... 17
Kristen Dams-O'Connor, M.A., Ph.D., Director, Brain Injury
Research Center, Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai....... 30
Prepared statement........................................... 32
Randy Couture, President, Xtreme Couture MMA..................... 40
Prepared statement........................................... 42
Submitted material
Statement of Bellator MMA........................................ 64
Statement of Mr. Jon Fitch, professional MMA fighter............. 67
Statement of groups on behalf of the UFC......................... 30
Article entitled, ``Women have been boxing in the shadows for too
long,'' The New York Times Magazine, August 15, 2016........... 73
Article entitled, ``The Feds want to go into the matchmaking
business,'' National Review, December 7, 2016.................. 78
Article entitled, ``Don't let Congress put a choke hold on mixed
martial Aarts,'' National Review, November 5, 2017............. 80
Article entitled, ``When did micromanaging mixed martial arts
become Congress' job?'' Washington Examiner, December 7, 2016.. 83
Article entitled, ``The GOP shouldn't be growing the regulatory
state,'' The Daily Caller, December 8, 2016.................... 86
PERSPECTIVES ON MIXED MARTIAL ARTS
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THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 2017
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Digital Commerce and Consumer
Protection,
Committee on Energy and Commerce,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:02 a.m., in
room 2123, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Robert Latta,
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Latta, Harper, Burgess, Lance,
Guthrie, Bilirakis, Bucshon, Mullin, Walters, Costello, Duncan,
Schakowsky, Lujan, Welch, Kennedy, Green, and Pallone (ex
officio).
Staff Present: Kelly Collins, Staff Assistant; Zachary
Dareshori, Staff Assistant; Melissa Froelich, Chief Counsel,
DCCP; Adam Fromm, Director of Outreach and Coalitions; Ali
Fulling, Legislative Clerk, O&I, DCCP; Elena Hernandez, Press
Secretary; Zach Hunter, Director of Communications; Paul
Jackson, Professional Staff, DCCP; Bijan Koohmaraie, Counsel,
DCCP; Katie McKeogh, Press Assistant; Alex Miller, Video
Production Aide and Press Assistant; Madeline Vey, Policy
Coordinator, DCCP; Jessica Wilkerson, Professional Staff, O&I;
Greg Zerzan, Counsel, DCCP; Michelle Ash, Minority Chief
Counsel, Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection; Jeff
Carroll, Minority Staff Director; Lisa Goldman, Minority
Counsel; Caroline Paris-Behr, Minority Policy Analyst; and C.J.
Young, Minority Press Secretary.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT E. LATTA, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OHIO
Mr. Latta. Good morning. I would like to call the
Subcommittee on Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection to
order. And the chair now recognizes himself for 5 minutes for
an opening statement.
Good morning, and thank you to our witnesses for being here
to discuss the mixed martial arts, or MMA, this morning. This
sport has enjoyed tremendous success since its beginnings in
the 1990s. I would like to thank my colleague from Oklahoma,
Mr. Mullin, for his continued work on this issue in promoting
safety for fighters. I look forward to learning more this
morning about MMA and Mr. Mullin's legislation as we hear the
testimony this morning.
The history of mixed martial arts goes back to Ancient
Greece when the first Olympians in the 7th century B.C. fought.
Today's MMA is far more regulated. All 50 states permit the
sport, subject to rules governing issues like banned
substances, equipment requirements, round length, weight
classes, and allowing referees and physicians to hock a fight
to protect the competitors. In some ways, MMA is regulated in a
similar matter to boxing. However, there are differences.
We look forward to hearing more about how MMA operates and
is regulated today. Mixed martial arts competitions are held
throughout the United States under the banner of both
professional and amateur sponsors. The unified rules of mixed
martial arts have been adopted by the largest organizers and
regulators, including the Ultimate Fighting Championship,
Bellator, and the Association of Boxing Commissions and
Combative Sports.
The rules include requirements for the fighting area,
equipment, how fights are to be judged, the use of gloves,
mouthpieces, and the prohibition of certain tactics like biting
and gouging. MMA includes both men's and women's divisions, and
in both cases, the champions of the sport have become
internationally known celebrities.
Nothing else rates this point more clearly than the recent
boxing match between MMA champion Conor McGregor and boxer
Floyd Mayweather, Jr., which reportedly drew hundreds of
millions of viewers around the globe, including a near record
number of pay-per-view purchases and nearly 27 million social
media interactions.
MMA has gone through many changes in its comparatively
short time, as a high-profile American sport. At the hearing
today, we will hear testimony about how the sport is regulated,
how competitors and promoters are compensated, and what it
takes to compete at a high level. We will hear about what state
regulators are doing to ensure fighter safety and learn more
about how it has become one of America's fastest growing
sports.
I thank our witnesses for joining us today, and I look
forward to your testimony. At this time, I will yield to the
gentleman from Oklahoma.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Latta follows:]
Prepared statement of Hon. Robert E. Latta
Good morning, and thank you to our witnesses for being here
today to discuss Mixed Martial Arts, or MMA. This sport has
enjoyed tremendous success since its beginnings in the 1990s. I
would like to thank my colleague from Oklahoma, Mr. Mullin, for
his continued work on this issue and promoting safety for
fighters. I look forward to learning more about this industry
and Mr. Mullin's legislation this morning.
The history of mixed martial arts goes back all the way to
Ancient Greece, when the first Olympians in the 7th Century
B.C. fought. Today's MMA is far more regulated-all 50 States
permit the sport, subject to rules governing things like banned
substances, equipment requirements, round length, weight
classes, and allowing referees and physicians to halt a fight
to protect the competitors.
In some ways MMA is regulated in a manner similar to
boxing, however there are differences. We look forward to
learning more about how the industry operates and is regulated
today.
Mixed martial arts competitions are held throughout the
United States, under the banner of both professional and
amateur sponsors. The Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts have
been adopted by the largest organizers and regulators,
including the Ultimate Fighting Championship, Bellator, and the
Association of Boxing Commissions and Combative Sports. The
rules include requirements for the fighting area and equipment,
how fights are to be judged, the use of gloves and mouthpieces,
and the prohibition of certain tactics like biting and gouging.
MMA bouts include both men's and women's divisions, and in
both cases the champions of the sport have become
internationally known celebrities. Nothing illustrates this
point more clearly than the recent boxing match between MMA
champion Conor McGregor and boxing great Floyd Mayweather Jr.,
which reportedly drew hundreds of millions of viewers around
the globe, including a near record number of pay-per-view
purchases and nearly 27 million social media interactions.
MMA has gone through many changes in its comparatively
short time as a high profile American sport. At the hearing
today, we will receive testimony about how the sport is
regulated, how competitors and promoters are compensated, and
what it takes to compete at a high level. We will hear about
what state regulators are doing to ensure fighter safety, and
learn more about how it has come to be one of America's fastest
growing sports.
I thank our witnesses for joining us today, and we look
forward to your testimony.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARKWAYNE MULLIN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
Mr. Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you for allowing us to have this legislative
hearing on H.R. 44, the Muhammad Ali Expansion Act, and learn
more about this growing industry.
Many times we get asked the question, why is Congress
involved in this? Well, it is the same reason why we got
involved in boxing with the Muhammad Ali Act. Right now, we
have actors that are acting like the Don King of the MMA world.
MMA has become an interstate commerce. Congress has the
responsibility when we are talking about commerce moving across
state lines. MMA is supposed to be a professional sport, much
like NFL, the MLB, and the NBA. But, without a merit-based
ranking system, then how is it going to be any more than a WWE?
Right now, we have a ranking system that is based more on
market and marketing value than it is merit-based. In the UFC
history, we see more and more fights being not fought for title
fights but simply a trophy. And when you have a number one
ranked individual not fighting for the title shot, but you have
in the last three fights--Bisping versus Luke for the title
fight at 185 pounds, you had number four, Bisping, fighting for
the title. The first defending was against Dan Henderson for
Bisping, who wasn't even in the top 10.
And then, just recently, this weekend, you had a retired
fighter of 4 years that had had the belt at 170 pounds, but
came out in his first professional fight in 4 years, fight for
the title shot, at 185 pounds. How is that a merit-based
system? How can we sit there and honestly say to the consumers
that are spending millions of dollars with a professional
sport, or what they perceive to be, when they are using a
ranking system that is not merit-based?
The UFC is an interstate commerce industry now. Congress
does have a role to oversee and to make sure that the consumers
know the product to which they are buying. As I said before,
there is a reason why Congress stepped up and kept people like
Don King from manipulating fighters in the boxing world. If it
was good enough for boxing, then it should be good enough for
other combative sports, such as MMA.
This legislation is about protecting the fighters and
sustaining a sport which I love, which I have given blood and
sweat and have dedicated a tremendous amount of time to. We
want to see this sport sustainable for future generations, and
the Muhammad Ali Expansion Act does just that.
So I look forward to hearing our witnesses, and I
appreciate your all's time, and I appreciate the opportunity
that the committee has given me here.
And I yield back.
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
And the gentleman yields back.
At this time, the chair now recognizes the ranking member
of the subcommittee, the gentlelady from Illinois, for 5
minutes.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, A
REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I was new to MMA when we had our first hearing on the
subject a year ago. I have learned a lot since then. I actually
did some research for today's hearing. I watched a few
highlighted videos of UFC fights. They were a little bloody,
more bloody than I would like for my taste. I don't think I am
going to become a regular viewer, but I know a lot of people
like it and are involved in the sport.
I have also met with several MMA fighters. First of all,
what they do seems absolutely crazy to me. But if they are
going to fight, I believe they should be able to negotiate for
higher pay, improved safety, and working conditions, and have
more control over themselves.
Congressman Mullin and I come to this issue from different
perspectives. He was an MMA fighter. I am a long-time advocate
for safety and labor rights, and today that puts us on the same
side. I am proud to join him as a cosponsor of H.R. 44, the
Muhammad Ali Expansion Act.
And now that we are holding our second MMA hearing in 12
months, I think our subcommittee is ready to advance the
Muhammad Ali Expansion Act.
I expect that the bill would get strong bipartisan support
in a markup. I am happy to talk with Congressman Mullin and
Chairman Latta about a path forward for this legislation.
Negotiating power for fighters is interlinked with safety. If
you only get paid when you enter the octagon, you feel pressure
to fight through an injury, putting yourself at greater risk.
UFC encourages hard hits to the head by paying out bonuses
to fighters who win by knockouts or a technical knockout. It
might make sense for good TV, but it also puts fighters at
greater risk of traumatic brain injury. Fighters have to secure
their own health insurance, and low pay may push fighters to
sign on for more fights in a year than is best for their long-
term health.
Brain injuries are a real risk for MMA fighters. Last year,
Jordan Parsons became the first MMA fighter to be diagnosed
with chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE. He died at 25
years old. CTE is not a new subject for this subcommittee. We
discussed it in the football context at a forum last year, and
11 months ago, Dr. Ann McKee of Boston University testified
about CTE risks in our previous hearing on MMA.
I look forward to continuing our examination of brain
injury risks with Dr. Kristen Dams-O'Connor from Mount Sinai.
Her research has focused on the long-term outcome of people who
suffer traumatic brain injuries. Very relevant to the types of
injuries we see in MMA. Fighters should know the risks when
they enter the ring, and organizers should want to change the
rules and incentives to mitigate that risk in the first place.
I especially worry about young fighters who can experience
traumatic brain injury while their brains are still developing.
Today, I want to hear specific suggestions for how to make MMA
safer for its young participants. Our discussion of safety
really comes down to the future of the sport.
We have seen a steep drop in youth participation in
football as more parents learn the risks of CTE. MMA has had a
rise in popularity in recent years, but that could be
jeopardized if athletes' parents and family members decide the
risk is too much.
Finally, I want to raise the issue of domestic violence. In
2015, HBO reported that the rate of domestic violence among MMA
fighters is double the rate of the general population. We have
seen multiple instances of athletes with athletes' histories of
domestic violence being welcomed into the sport. Domestic
violence cannot be accepted as normal. I hope all actors in the
industry take this problem seriously.
I do thank all the witnesses for being here today, and I
look forward to your testimony. And I yield back.
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
The gentlelady yields back.
The chair of the full committee is not here right now.
Would anyone like to claim the chairman's time?
Hearing none, the chair recognizes the ranking member of
the full committee, the gentleman from New Jersey, for 5
minutes.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY
Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Today's hearing is on mixed martial arts, or MMA, a full
contact sport that has risen in popularity over the last
several years, and youth interest in the sport has followed.
MMA camps start for children as young as 6, and this year, a
15-year-old fought against a 23-year-old in a sanctioned match
in Montana. And I am hoping we can spend some time today
talking about participation of kids and teens in this sport.
For several years, this committee has been following the
issue surrounding sports and head trauma. Most recently,
Democratic members held a forum last month with our Judiciary
Committee Democratic colleagues on the long-term effects of
football-related brain injuries. And while much of the
attention on sports and head trauma has focused on football,
head injuries from MMA are real and concerning.
An MMA fighter was diagnosed post-mortem with CTE last
year. And retired fighters who were still living had reported
headaches, forgetfulness, loss of train of thought, and other
effects that are similar to Alzheimer's disease. We have known
for some time that getting hit in the head is simply not good
for you, but we are learning more and more about the effects of
cumulative hits to the head over time and how head trauma is
particularly dangerous to children.
Adults need to know the full long-term risks so they can
make informed choices to participate in contact sports. But I
am most worried about the risks to children. Studies show that
brain injuries in children can be more serious, and we need to
focus on how we can reduce the risks for children who engage in
MMA.
It has been less than a year since our subcommittee's last
hearing on MMA in December 2016. And while these hearings are
raising legitimate issues that deserve to be heard, I would be
remiss if I did not raise another sports issue deserving the
committee's review as well as the subcommittee. There is a
revolution in the world of sports, and that is the exploding
popularity of sports betting. So, Mr. Chairman, sports betting
is more popular and widely accepted than ever before, despite
that it is still illegal in most of the country. The majority
of Americans now believe that sports betting should be legal,
and since it is happening anyway, we should ensure that basic
consumer protections are attached to it.
I have released a comprehensive bill to update our outdated
Federal gambling laws, the Gaming, Accountability, and
Modernization Enhancement Act, or GAME Act. And my bill allows
states to put strong consumer protections in place to legalize
sports betting and online gaming if they chose to. It would be
increasing transparency and integrity in the industry and could
bring in much needed revenue.
So, Mr. Chairman, I think this is an issue where members on
both sides of the aisle can find common ground. And as I said
to you before, I hope to see the committee, or actually the
subcommittee, hold hearings to consider my sports betting or
GAME Act in the near future.
And unless someone else wants time on my side, I yield
back.
Mr. Latta. Thank you.
The gentleman yields back.
And that now concludes the member opening statements. The
chair would remind members that, pursuant to the committee
rules, all members' opening statements will be made part of the
record.
Additionally, I ask unanimous consent that Energy and
Commerce members not on the Subcommittee on Digital Commerce
and Consumer Protection be permitted to participate in today's
hearing.
Without objection, so ordered.
Again, we want to thank our witnesses for being with us
today and taking time to testify before us. Today's witnesses
will have the opportunity to give 5-minute opening statements
followed by a round of questions from the members.
Our witness panel for today's hearing will include Mr. Marc
Ratner, the Senior Vice President of Government and Regulatory
Affairs at Ultimate Fighting Championship; Mr. Greg Sirb, the
Executive Director of the Pennsylvania state Athletic
Commission; Dr. Kristen Dams-O'Connor, the Director of the
Brain Injury Research Center at the Icahn School of Medicine at
Mount Sinai; and Mr. Randy Couture, six-time UFC and MMA world
champion, Hall of Famer, and President of Xtreme Couture MMA.
And, again, thank you very much for being with us.
And, Mr. Ratner, you have 5 minutes. And just pull the mike
up and press the button, and thanks for being with us today.
STATEMENTS OF MARC RATNER, VICE PRESIDENT OF REGULATORY
AFFAIRS, UFC; GREG SIRB, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PENNSYLVANIA STATE
ATHLETIC COMMISSION; KRISTEN DAMS-O'CONNOR, M.A., PH.D.,
DIRECTOR, BRAIN INJURY RESEARCH CENTER, ICAHN SCHOOL OF
MEDICINE AT MOUNT SINAI; AND RANDY COUTURE, PRESIDENT, XTREME
COUTURE
STATEMENT OF MARC RATNER
Mr. Ratner. Thank you and good morning. And excuse me if--I
have a little cold, so I may have to get some water in between.
But my name is Marc Ratner. I am the Senior Vice President of
Government and Regulatory Affairs at the UFC. I am pleased to
share with you my perspectives about the regulation of mixed
martial arts and why applying the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform
Act to MMA does not make sense.
I would like you to take away three key points from my
testimony. First, it was only because of the leadership of the
UFC that MMA exists as you know it today. Second, at the UFC,
athlete and health safety is paramount. And, third, the
conflicts and corruption that give rise to the Ali Act are not
present in MMA.
After nearly 20 years on the Nevada State Athletic
Commission regulating boxing, a sport that I truly love, I
joined the UFC because I had come to admire and appreciate what
the UFC was building. Make no mistake: It was the UFC and only
the UFC that undertook the hard work to make MMA what it is
today. It was not always so.
A short 5 years before I joined the UFC, it was nearly
bankrupt. In 2001, MMA was in disregard because it was not a
real sport. It had no rules and events were held in unregulated
markets. It was marketed as a blood sport. Senator John McCain,
a huge boxing fan, famously derided the sport as human
cockfighting.
Today, the sport is the fastest growing professional sport
because the fans and athletes have confidence about its well-
earned reputation for integrity. MMA was transformed from a
shunned spectacle to a respected sport because of the UFC's
leadership. A key to the MMA success is regulation, which
ensures fairness, consistency and adherence to a common set of
rules.
Instead of avoiding regulations, the UFC ran toward
regulation because we knew regulation was critical to
instilling the confidence in fans and athletes that the sport
had integrity. We traveled from state capital to state capital
urging legislators to regulate the sport. I want to emphasize
that no one else embarked on this hard work. We didn't ask
Congress for a grant or a tax break. Our many competitors did
not spend a dime or lift a finger in a single state capital
advocating for the regulation of MMA.
It was the UFC and only the UFC that criss-crossed the
country and the world to convince lawmakers to legalize and
regulate the sport. In 2001, only the State of New Jersey
regulated MMA. Sixteen years later, we are proud to report that
MMA is regulated by every state with an athletic commission and
in many countries around the world.
This subcommittee should understand that state regulation
is real and effective. The UFC has consistently embraced
regulation of MMA because these rules help ensure athlete
safety and fair competition by providing a consistent set of
rules for the sport, something that was missing in the early
days of MMA. However, we don't wait for state regulators to
instruct us about health and safety. We are determined to lead.
The UFC has the most comprehensive anti-doping program in
all of sports. It is administered by the United States Anti-
Doping Agency and requires athletes to be available for random
drug testing 24/7, 365 days a year. The UFC is the largest
supporter of a landmark study on fighter brain health being
conducted by the noted Cleveland Clinic.
Earlier this year, the UFC opened a new performance
institute that provides its athletes with the most advanced
training and wellness network, and unveiled new guidelines to
improve weight management practices.
We also treat our fighters fairly. The sport has created
wealth and opportunity for many for whom no such opportunity
previously existed. Today, former collegiate and Olympic
wrestlers, judo specialists, and other mixed martial arts have
a professional outlet for their athletic endeavors that barely
existed 15 years ago. We pay the highest purses on the average
in the industry, plus an opportunity to earn fight night
bonuses. The UFC is first and the only promoter providing
prefight accident insurance while they are training. Very, very
important.
Dozens upon dozens of mixed martial artists are
millionaires because of these opportunities. They have
capitalized on their successes by opening gyms, managing and
training fighters, obtaining sponsorships, and even making
movies.
Women excel in the UFC because we have created one of the
biggest platforms for female athletes in professional sports.
Women competing in the UFC do so on the same terms as their
male counterparts, on the same fight cards, under the same
rules, and with the same earning opportunities.
Some have argued that because boxing and MMA are both
combat sports, both should be governed by the Ali Act. However,
the two sports are entirely different, and the Ali Act should
not cover MMA. Of principal concern is the application of Ali
Act's sanctioning organization rules to MMA. MMA does not rely
on sanctioning organizations, and Congress should not impose
the boxing sanctioning organization model onto MMA.
The UFC's fighters are ranked by sports reporters, and
those rankings guide our merit-based competitive matchmaking
decisions. We put on the fights that the fans want to see, and
it is merit-based on competitive matchmaking decisions. Fighter
fans and sports reporters keep MMA promoters accountable.
H.R. 44 would remove from the promoter the decisions
regarding when and against whom fighters are matched. It might
force interpromotional fights. Because different promotions
have less comprehensive health and safety standards than the
UFC, our fighters would be endangered.
Mr. Chairman, state regulation is working well. MMA is
thriving because athletes and fans understand that it is a
sport with high integrity. There is no need for Federal
regulation, and I urge this subcommittee to be careful that it
not hastily enact rules that make little sense for the sport.
Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Ratner follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
Mr. Sirb, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF GREG SIRB
Mr. Sirb. Chairman Latta and members of the committee,
thank you very much for being here. My name is Greg Sirb. I
served as the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania commission
for the past 27 years. I have also served as the National
President of the Association of Boxing Commissions and Combat
Sports. I testified before Congress on multiple occasions
concerning the Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996 and the
Ali Act of 2000. I will be always proud to say I was one of the
architects at getting both of those bills passed, along with my
good friend Senator John McCain.
First, some background information. In 2016, we had about a
thousand MMA fights in the United States, it is increasingly
being popularized. The top states: California, Texas, Nevada,
Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida. Currently, we have about 52
state or tribal commissions that regulate these sports.
Regulations can vary between state and state, particularly when
we talk about the amateur MMA athlete.
One of the driving forces when we first were here in 1996
when we passed the Pro Boxing Safety Act, we had five sections
we wanted to make sure we dealt with. I am going to go over
those and see how they deal with MMA.
One, under the current Federal law, no boxing can occur in
a state that does not have a commission. Cannot occur. If the
state does not have a commission, they can ask a neighboring
state to come in or they can ask the ABC to supervise. That is
not the case in MMA. It is not against Federal law to have an
unregulated pro MMA fight.
Two, safety procedures. Each boxer must have a physical
exam before the fight, an ambulance must be present, a
physician must be present. And health insurance must be
provided to that boxer in case he is injured. That is in the
Federal law. Although not mandated by the Federal law, many of
the state and tribal commissions do this for MMA currently.
Three we had as registration. The Federal Boxing Act
requires all pro boxers to apply for a Federal ID card with
their home state. This ID card has a photo of the fighter, the
name of the fighter, the date of birth, Social Security number,
and a unique six-digit number that tracks that fighter all over
the world.
In the MMA, the ABC has developed a national database for
MMA fighters. This national registry is accessible to all state
and Tribal commissions, and again, although not mandated by the
Federal law, the Federal ID system is in effect for the MMA
world.
Four, suspensions. The current Federal law mandates that if
you are a boxer and you have suffered a knockout or an injury
and you are a placed on suspension, you cannot fight in any
other state. That is Federal law. You cannot fight for a KO, a
series of knockouts, a failed drug test, a failed alias that
you are trying to falsify a documentation, or unsportsmanlike
conduct. And although not mandated by Federal law, with the
help of the ABC, the vast majority of the states with MMA
uphold MMA suspensions and require that they uphold the
suspensions in other states.
Five, reporting. The Federal law requires you to report
your boxing results and your suspensions within 48 hours after
the event. The ABC has developed two national registries. We
have one for boxing, and we have one for MMA. Again, although
not mandated, all state and Tribal commissions have the results
in by 48 hours with their suspensions.
As you can see with the ABC and with the help of the many
state and Tribal commissions we have, we have already
implemented much of the Federal law for the MMA fighters. But
what haven't we done? Generally, the MMA fighter, under Federal
law, is not covered when he is dealing with his promoter or
manager. He is not covered in that section, of course, of
contract. He is not covered in that section of sanctioning
bodies and rankings organization.
As a boxer, I can go after that event. I am entitled to my
contract. I am entitled to see and ask for disclosure of that
promoter of the financial dealings with that promoter, how much
did he make from the event, where that money is going, and what
money is being assessed against me as a fighter. I have that
authority as a boxer.
Boxers are also entitled to the so-called firewall between
a manager and a fighter; i.e., a manager cannot act as your
promoter, and a promoter cannot act as your manager and take
money from both. There is no double dipping. Boxers have that
ability.
Boxers are also protected under the Federal act from the
so-called coercive contract. A coercive contract generally
means under the Pro Boxing Safety Act, that I can't be forced
to sign a contract or I cannot be forced to extend an existing
contract if I want a particular fight. I can't be forced to do
that. Coerciveness.
The Federal law also states that the promoter of the event
is obligated, under perjury, to sign forms and disclose to the
state or Tribal commission where the event is to be held, all
the financial dealings that he has with the fighter, all the
money that he is bringing in, and all the money that he may be
paying out. So a promoter can't----
Mr. Latta. You need to wrap up. You need to wrap up.
Mr. Sirb. Of those five things, let's be clear about the
financial disclosure. Financial disclosure is a good thing.
And I will leave you with this. Twenty-seven years I have
been here. I am one of the longest serving state regulators in
the country. I served many times with a fighter and a manager,
sit down with them and their promoter, and we have to mediate
his contract. One famous fighter told me just like this, he
said: ``Sirb, if I don't know how big the financial pie is, how
do I know what type of piece of the pie I should ask for?'' I
will leave with you that.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Sirb follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
And, Dr. Dams-O'Connor, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Thank you.
STATEMENT OF KRISTEN DAMS-O'CONNOR, M.A., PH.D.
Ms. Dams-O'Connor. Thank you. I am Dr. Kristen Dams-
O'Connor. I am an Associate Professor of Rehabilitation
Medicine and Neurology at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount
Sinai, where I am also the Director of the Brain Injury
Research Center. The testimony I will provide today reflects my
own professional opinion.
My research focuses on understanding and improving long-
term outcomes associated with traumatic brain injury or TBI.
TBI is defined as a traumatically induced physiological
disruption of brain function that results in a period of
unconsciousness or any alteration in mental state or
neurological status.
Not all traumatic brain injuries involve a loss of
consciousness, and not all TBIs result from a direct blow to
the head. A mild TBI is frequently referred to as a concussion.
Most of my research pertains to individuals who have sustained
a TBI that involves a loss of consciousness and requires
hospital care. TBI affects more than 2.7 million people each
year and causes more than 150 deaths each day in the United
States.
TBI is one of the strongest environmental risk factors for
dementia. The potential consequences of TBI are not limited to
dementia. Among people who receive in-patient rehabilitation
for traumatic brain injury, about half within 5 years of injury
have died or declined from a previous level of functioning.
People who have sustained a TBI tend to have more medical
comorbidities and a shortened lifespan of up to 9 years.
These findings have led to the realization that TBI may be
more appropriately conceptualized as a disease process as
opposed to an isolated event. Milder TBI or concussion can
cause symptoms like headaches, dizziness, cognitive or
emotional changes, but these usually resolve within weeks.
Some people who sustain a concussion experience persistent
symptoms, especially those who sustain multiple concussions.
Repeated exposure to sub-concussive head trauma, even in the
absence of a clinical concussion, may be associated with long-
term consequences. Chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE, is
thought to be triggered by repeated exposure to sub-concussive
head trauma and is diagnosed post-mortem as an abnormal
accumulation of a protein called tau in the brain.
Most of the recent research on CTE has been conducted in
football players. Most of the research on sports-related TBI in
general has been conducted on football players, male football
players in particular. So it is not well-known how or whether
these findings generalize to other contact sports, such as MMA,
or to women.
An important thing that distinguishes MMA from football is
that many football players never sustain a true concussion
whereas inflicting a TBI with loss of consciousness is
essentially the goal of MMA. MMA also involves repeated
exposure to sub-concussive head trauma throughout practice and
competition, which essentially means that MMA fighters are at
risk for both the long-term sequelae associated with traumatic
brain injuries and also the long-term risks associated with
sub-concussive head trauma exposure.
It is no longer defensible to claim that traumatic brain
injury is not associated with long-term health consequences. We
know that earlier life exposure and greater cumulative exposure
to head trauma is associated with worse outcomes. There is no
amount of exposure to traumatic brain injury that can be
considered safe, and there is no age at which a traumatic brain
injury is considered safe.
There is no biological marker to definitively determine
when it is safe to return to sport after a traumatic brain
injury. So the most conservative approach might be to ban
participation in contact sports all together, but we know that
there are tremendous benefits to kids and young adults who
participate in sports, especially in this digital age. It is
concerning to hear that sports participation among kids is
declining. The benefits of sports participation cannot be
replicated by technology.
But this truth has to be considered alongside the knowledge
that many traumatic brain injuries sustained in sport are
preventable. So the most prudent way forward might be to make
every effort to make contact sport participation safer. In MMA
in particular exposure to head trauma can be substantially
reduced by delaying the age of exposure to high-contact fights,
limiting exposure to head contact, reducing the duration or
number of competitions an athlete can participate in, or even
penalizing athletes who deliberately inflict a blow to the head
to an opponent.
Our understanding of the long-term effects of TBI has
advanced rapidly in recent years, and I really think that we
owe it to the people and their families who are living with the
sequelae of brain injury to only accelerate that pace of
research.
In science, we are interested in understanding the factors
that may mitigate negative outcomes after a brain injury, and
we hope that one day that science would allow us to predict
individual level risk, but we are not there yet. As that
knowledge accumulates, the short-term responsibility really
lies in policy, the goal being to improve and enforce
regulations that make sports safer for all athletes.
These regulations must protect both the athletes that go on
to experience these devastating outcomes as well as those who
are lucky and don't have these outcomes because, right now, we
have no way of determining who those lucky ones will be. When
sports participation involves exposure to traumatic brain
injury----
Mr. Latta. Pardon me, Doctor. If you can just wrap up.
Thank you. You are over. Thank you.
Ms. Dams-O'Connor [continuing]. Every effort must be made
to reduce the risk.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Dams-O'Connor follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
Mr. Couture, you are recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you
very much.
STATEMENT OF RANDY COUTURE
Mr. Couture. Thank you, Chairman Latta and Ranking Member
Schakowsky, thank you. I am very pleased to be back for the
legislative hearing for the Ali Act to be expanded to mixed
martial arts. I want to address some of the major issues in the
sport of MMA that I have come to love so much and,
unfortunately, some of the business behind the scenes that I
have come to hate.
I know the majority of the memorandum has done a pretty
good job of providing a cursory description of some of the
history of modern MMA. However, there is just a bit I would
like to add. It involves world-class athletes, Olympic athletes
involved in disciplines of martial arts, including, wrestling,
judo, jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai, karate, and boxing.
The UFC is the operating trade name of the Zuffa, LLC. Over
90 percent of the revenue generated in the sport of MMA is
captured by Zuffa. Zuffa is still the only promoter in MMA that
is regularly broadcasting on pay-per-view, where a substantial
amount of the event's income is obtained. The UFC also promotes
approximately 24 additional events through FOX family of
networks on its own streaming service, the UFC FIGHT PASS. And
the UFC has over 520 fighters on its roster right now under
contract.
Once signed to a Zuffa promotional agreement, Zuffa retains
sweeping ancillary rights to utilize the athlete's likeness in
perpetuity for all commercial purposes. The roster churns. As
fighters are released, injured, or retire, new fighters are
signed worldwide. There are thousands of professional mixed
martial artists.
Coercive contractual practices crippling the natural growth
of MMA include but are not limited to: the use of exclusive
nonpublic contracts; the assignment of ancillary rights from
the athlete to the promoter far beyond the term of the
promotional agreement; champions clauses that prevent champions
from ever becoming freely marketable; secret discretionary
payments that are utilized to keep athletes subservient and
silent.
For 2015, Zuffa reported an annual revenue in excess of
$600 million, with over 63 percent of that revenue from
regulated events, pay-per-view, and gate. Zuffa has also
entered into lucrative TV licensing deals, including a 7-year,
$832 million with FOX Networks and a 5-year, $232 million deal
for broadcast rights in Brazil. Zuffa also has ownership stakes
in a variety of other business, including apparel, equipment,
energy drinks and gyms, the UFC magazine, the UFC Fan Expo, UFC
FIGHT PASS, which is the streaming service, and UFC.com, which
is the website and online store.
Zuffa has a partnership and arrangements with numerous
media companies. Zuffa controls the likeness rights of its
athletes for merchandizing purposes and has the only MMA video
game franchise in partnership with EA Sports. I know this
because I was previously in EA's video game before it became a
UFC property.
By now, as most will know, Zuffa sold last year to WME-IMG
for a reported $4 billion in the single largest sports property
in the history of sports. Although the purchase price is
astounding, given the requisite percentage revenue share with
the athletes, I can say, based upon my recent experience, that
things seem to have gotten worse for fighters, not better, in
fact, may have worsened. In particular, what I understand, the
debt load associated with this purchase is probably three times
the previous debt load. To that point, Goldman Sachs, the lead
banker in the sale, has been twice warned by the Federal
regulators that over-optimism in the projections of future
income were far too speculative. Translation to fighters: None
of that enormous purchase price will translate to your pocket,
as the company now carries far more debt load and managers
scramble to create new revenue.
Competitive architecture in the sport of MMA. In sport,
competition is a result of competition and determines merit.
Unlike boxing, however, there is no competitive architecture.
For an MMA amateur, programs are largely nonexistent and
unorganized.
MMA is also not an Olympic sport. Thus, athletes entering
into MMA do not have the built-in pedigree that boxers
typically enjoy due to longstanding amateur programs and
Olympic competition which serves to filter test talent before
they turn professional. In MMA, outside of the NCAA Division I
wrestling and Olympic wrestlers, athletes turn professional in
MMA and have not been systematically ranked at any level. In
contrast, amateur boxers and wrestlers establish credentials
and merit in athletics through competition, ascending rankings.
Merit is essential to all combative sports. Athletes,
through competition, ascend rankings and establish notoriety
with the viewing public. In combat sports, value to athletes
competing is obtained by sending those rankings through
competition and later winning titles. Once notoriety has been
obtained, the professional boxer or kickboxer may then enter
into the marketplace for competing promotions where they can
bid for his services or the athlete may choose to promote
himself and hire a third party on a contract basis. These
athletes retain rank and title that they have already obtained,
which are independent of the promotion.
In contrast, MMA athletes do not have an organized and
respected amateur system to establish merit. Unlike boxing and
kickboxing, MMA promoters do not have and have not been
required by the athletic commissions to utilize independent or
objective ranking.
Mr. Latta. Pardon me, Mr. Couture, if you could wrap up
your statement. Thank you.
Mr. Couture. Lots more to say. But I am here representing
the MMA FA members of over 600 strong, so hardly an
insignificant amount of fighters that want to see this changed.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Couture follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Latta. Well, thank you very much for your statements.
And at this time, we will move to the question and answers from
our members.
And I will begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes.
And, Mr. Sirb, if I could start with you. As an official of
the Pennsylvania state Athletic Commission, can you explain the
authority the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has to implement
rules like those for contractual provisions in H.R. 44?
Mr. Sirb. Currently in Pennsylvania----
Mr. Latta. Is your mike on?
Mr. Sirb. Currently, in Pennsylvania, we treat the boxer
exactly the same as the MMA fighter. Every aspect of the Ali
Act is implemented for the MMA fighter. We oversee the
contract. It must be on our form. It can't exceed 3 years. And
any situations that come up, they come to the commission first
by state law for an arbitration process. If they don't like
what we arbitrated, then it goes to Commonwealth court.
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
Mr. Ratner, you have had a great deal of experience with
both boxing and the MMA, what are the differences in those
sports and how they are regulated, and why do those differences
exist?
Mr. Ratner. From the commission side, as Mr. Sirb just
said, it is handled exactly the same way. I can speak for the
State of Nevada completely. Boxers and MMA fighters are treated
exactly the same. Surprisingly, the only thing that is
different is the rules of the sports. But everything is the
same. Whether contracts, they can be arbitrated by the
commission.
But I do want to say about the Ali Act--and I was there in
1996 with Mr. Sirb before Senator McCain and Senator Richard
Bryan, and to the best of my knowledge, and maybe I am wrong,
but there has not been one case that has gone to the United
States Attorney General in any state with the Ali Act. For some
reason, it has never been there. And I don't think it works in
boxing, and it certainly will not work in the sport of MMA.
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
Mr. Couture, you have been a passionate advocate for
changes and how the MMA is regulated. If these changes would
have been in effect when you were fighting, how do you think it
would have impacted your successful career?
Mr. Couture. I think, with the transparency that the Ali
Act provides boxers, I would have known what my fair market
value was in the sport, and I would have been free to go and
pursue--for me, a perfect example was the Fedor Emelianenko
fight in 2006: Fedor was fighting for a different organization
under a contract with them; I was under contract with the UFC.
I wasn't allowed to go and pursue that fight. Most people
thought he was the best fighter in the world and I was number
two. The only way to really settle that, and that is in the
cage. And I was not allowed to do that because of my exclusive
contract with the UFC. I couldn't pursue that outside of them,
and they couldn't make a deal with Fedor and do a copromotion
with his organization.
So I think this is one of the things that the act clears
up, allows for free market, and allows me to know my fair value
in the marketplace.
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
Mr. Sirb, do you believe that the way the MMA fights are
regulated in the U.S. creates as safe an environment as
possible for the competitors, understanding the sport of course
is very much a contact sport?
Mr. Sirb. I do. Again, we are only talking about the
professional fighters. The MMA, unlike boxing, has a whole slew
of amateur MMA fighters, 14, 13, 12 years old, 14, teenagers.
That is very unregulated in some states. That is a big issue.
This Ali Act only covers, though, the pro fighters. But for
the pro MMA fighters for health and safety, yes, they are
protected fairly well under current regulations.
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much. Just to let you know, with
our lights up there and the bells, they just called votes, and
we have about 13 minutes left. Would the gentlelady like to go
ahead and ask her questions, and we will take a brief recess
and come right back.
Ms. Schakowsky. Actually, because I can come back, I am
going to yield to Ben Ray Lujan to ask questions.
Mr. Latta. The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Lujan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Ms. Schakowsky.
Mr. Couture, first off, I want to thank Mr. Markwayne
Mullin for leading this effort, and Mr. Kennedy as well. This
is important. As we are having a conversation about folks that
want to put themselves through the training and through the
rigors of being in that ring, that ultimately led to a $4
billion industry; that is the premise of I think why we are
here. And what can be done in a way to make sure that we can
understand how to put what those fighters are going through
every day and front and center, if you will, in the middle of
what is happening across the country.
So, looking at this, as we talk about economic
independence, does the Ali Act make it harder for the same
person or organization to serve both as a boxer's manager and
their promoter, and why do MMA fighters need the same
protections?
Mr. Couture. I believe that MMA fighters need the same
protection. I think the biggest issue is that combative sport
should be based on merit. And to have a promoter also create
his own title and his own rankings and then hold the athlete's
feet to the fire and force him to sign a contract if he wants
to be ranked and he wants to fight for those titles and gain
that notoriety, it is too much power. It needs to be separated.
Somebody else independent of wanting to promote and make
money off that fighter should be setting those rankings and
creating those titles. That is my opinion.
Health and well-being of the fighters, I am perfectly
comfortable with how the athletic commissions and ABC regulate
us. The CT scans, the blood work, all the other things that I
do to make sure--I know the risks; I still love the sport.
The real issue is on the business side of things. I am not
told or allowed to know what I am worth. And I get to negotiate
for my fair share of any event that I compete in. A recent
example, Conor McGregor gets a boxing license, and he goes out
and makes $80 million or $90 million. That is ten times he has
ever made in a mixed martial arts fight--ten times what he ever
made in a mixed martial arts fight. And he is one of the
highest mixed martial arts fighters, what he is paid. And it
goes down drastically from there.
The mid-tier and lower tier fighters are struggling; they
can't fight enough times in a year to make a decent living.
Now, they are forced to fight four or five or six times in a
year. It takes 10 weeks to train for one fight. That is 40
weeks that he is in hardcore training, putting his body at
risk, in order to continue to make a living in the sport that
he loves.
Mr. Lujan. I appreciate that. I have seen some of those
boxers train at Jackson's Gym in Albuquerque, New Mexico, I
certainly appreciate the work that goes into that. I sweat just
watching them, sir, so there is nothing that I could do to ever
be prepared fully, but I appreciate that.
So my question, Mr. Ratner, goes I guess to this point. Is
disclosure and voluntary guidelines enough to protect fighters'
interest, or do fighters need a fully independent sanctioning
authority that has the ability to enforce rules as we look at
these rankings?
Mr. Ratner. First of all, in your first statement, I want
everybody to know that we are not a manager; we are a promoter.
When a fighter comes to fight for us, they bring attorneys,
they bring managers, they bring agencies.
Mr. Lujan. Mr. Ratner, if I may, because my time is going
to run out here, specifically to disclosure and voluntary
guidelines, is that enough to protect the fighters' interests,
or do fighters need a fully independent sanctioning authority
that has the ability to enforce the rules as we talk about the
importance of the ranking and things of that nature?
Mr. Ratner. When they fight for us, the gate is public
knowledge; they know exactly how much was paid by the people
who watched the fights. The ones who fight on pay-per-view are
really their partners. They have the right to audit the pay-
per-view numbers. So they are really part of our whole
business. No fighter fights for us for less than $10,000 for
them to show up. If they win, they get another $10,000.
Mr. Couture brought up the Mayweather fight with Conor
McGregor. On that fight card, there were five boxers who were
paid under $7,500. So that is a boxing--whether it is right or
wrong. I am saying that nobody gets paid less than $10,000, and
we do the right thing by the fighters.
Mr. Lujan. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, as my time expires, again, just--it just sold
for $4 billion. We talk about the earnings of these fighters
and even the autonomy for them to go and find independent
sponsors as well when they are tied to contracts. It just
doesn't allow them to maximize their earnings. And I think, as
you look at what they are required to fight for all year long
versus the few fights then that ultimately have that payday,
that there should be some flexibility there, and I am hoping
that I can better understand this as well so we can maximize
those earnings for these folks that do incredible work. Thank
you very much, sir.
Mr. Latta. The gentleman's time has expired.
And at this time, we will take a brief 15-minute recess,
and we will go vote and come right back. So we appreciate your
testimony so far, and like I said, we will be back in 15
minutes.
[Recess.]
Mr. Latta. I call the subcommittee to order from our brief
recess, and at this time, I will recognize the gentleman from
Oklahoma for 5 minutes.
Mr. Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the
witnesses for being here.
Mr. Ratner, you made a statement that you said boxers and
MMA fighters are treated the same.
Mr. Ratner. By commissions, yes.
Mr. Mullin. So is the ranking system the same?
Mr. Ratner. First of all, I am a regulator.
Mr. Mullin. I know, but if you are saying they are treated
the same, that is an awful broad statement. Is the ranking
system the same?
Mr. Ratner. Well, I am saying from a regulatory point of
view, from a commission point of view----
Mr. Mullin. Well, you are talking about the safety of the
fighter. We are talking about the ranking, and the Ali Act
doesn't deal with the safety of it. It deals with the financial
disclosures of it.
So, when you make that broad statement, let's be narrow,
because this is a hearing on the legislation, on H.R. 44. That
is what this is about. We are not talking about the safety,
which is important, we are talking about what the Ali Act does
and doesn't.
So, when you say that a boxer and an MMA fighter is treated
the same, is the ranking system the same? Yes or no.
Mr. Ratner. The ranking systems in boxing are completely
different.
Mr. Mullin. So what criteria does the MMA use for the
ranking system? The UFC specifically.
Mr. Ratner. The UFC, there is a group of sports writers, I
am not sure how many, and they are the ones.
Mr. Mullin. Do they serve at the will of the UFC?
Mr. Ratner. No, they are independent.
Mr. Mullin. They serve at will. The UFC reserves the right
to remove anybody off that commission that they choose.
Mr. Ratner. I cannot answer that.
Mr. Mullin. It is true. The answer to that is true.
Mr. Ratner. I do not know that, but there is a group of
them, it is 18 or 20, something like that, and they rank the
fighters----
Mr. Mullin. What criteria do they use to rank the fighters?
Mr. Ratner. As I said, I am in the regulatory part of it. I
am not in that part of it, and I cannot answer that.
Mr. Mullin. But you did refer to it, in your opening
statement referred to the ranking system. So, if you referred
to it in your opening statement, then let's be clear on a
couple things.
How do they choose who is going to fight for a title?
Mr. Ratner. How does the UFC?
Mr. Mullin. Yes.
Mr. Ratner. On a competitive basis. We make the fight that
fans want to see.
Mr. Mullin. I have no objections to that. I want that, but
when you are talking about a world title, as a professional
fighter, I want to know that I am the best, if I am fighting,
and that is the whole point. As Randy said, he wants to fight
the best.
So how do you know you get to fight the best? It has
nothing to do with matchmaking. The Mayweather/McGregor fight
was not for a title. The fans wanted to see it, Correct?
Mr. Ratner. Correct.
Mr. Mullin. But when you have a title out there that the
UFC shows as a world title, do you consider that the world
title?
Mr. Ratner. Last Saturday night, we had three world titles.
Mr. Mullin. World titles. So, when Lawrence Epstein came
and talked to be me and he said that they don't look at the
title as being a title but as an award bestowed upon the best
fighter that night, would you agree with that statement?
Mr. Ratner. I do. Just going back to Saturday night----
Mr. Mullin. So then it is not really a world title.
Mr. Ratner. It is a world title as far as we are concerned.
Mr. Mullin. Not if you are considering it an award bestowed
upon the best fighter. It can't be. When you have the last
three fights, the 185 pound, as I said in my opening statement,
when Luke fought Bisping, Bisping was ranked number four. Did
number three, number two, and the number one contender, did
they refuse the fight like in the boxing world they do?
Mr. Ratner. Well, in the boxing world, what you have there
is step-aside, and there are all kinds of games played.
Mr. Mullin. OK. But did they? Did the number three, two,
and the number one contender have an opportunity to fight, or
did they go straight to Bisping?
Mr. Ratner. I am going to make it clear again: I am not
involved in that part of it.
Mr. Mullin. But you said in the opening statement that the
fighters in the MMA and boxers are treated the same.
Mr. Ratner. Absolutely.
Mr. Mullin. They are not when you are talking about the
ranking system.
Mr. Ratner. I am talking about state commissions.
Mr. Mullin. State commissions when you are talking about
the safety and regulating the safety but not the true ranking
system.
If the UFC is considered a professional sport, then it
should be on a merit-based ranking system, when the fans know
that the number one contender actually has a shot at the title,
because we haven't seen that at 185. How did Dan Henderson--
which I like Dan; this is no knocking him. But he wasn't even
in the top 10, and when was the last time he was in the top 10?
He got to fight Bisping for the title shot. Did nine, eight,
seven, six, five, four, three, two, and one all refuse?
Mr. Ratner. When Dan Henderson fought Michael Bisping, it
was a natural rematch from a fight maybe four or----
Mr. Mullin. But then it wasn't a title shot, but yet it was
for a title shot. Then that means the world championship belt
that the UFC has isn't really a world championship belt. It is
really what Lawrence Epstein personally told me. It is simply
an award that they bestow on the best fighter that night. That
is insulting to every professional athlete.
How did GSP get a fight for the title when he hasn't had a
fight in 4 years, much less at 185 pounds? He never fought for
the belt.
Mr. Ratner. St-Pierre hadn't fought in 4 years; you are
absolutely correct.
Mr. Mullin. So how did he get a title shot?
Mr. Ratner. He was a former champion, former pound-for-
pound the best fighter in the world, according to our----
Mr. Mullin. So he still didn't fight for a title. He fought
for an award bestowed upon the best fighter that night.
When you go back and you say--and I am wrapping up,
Chairman--when you go back and you say that boxers are treated
like MMA fighters, clarify that statement that you are talking
about the health of the fighter but not the professional
ranking system and not about the financial disclosures, because
there are distinct differences. The Ali Act is the backstop to
boxers. There is no backstop for MMA fighters. It is take it or
leave it, and that is what I say the UFC has become the Don
King of MMA.
I yield back.
Mr. Latta. The gentleman's time has expired.
And the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Illinois,
the ranking member of the subcommittee.
Ms. Schakowsky. I am going to yield to Congressman Kennedy,
a cosponsor of this bill.
Mr. Kennedy. Thank you. I appreciate that, ranking member.
I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for calling this
hearing.
The witnesses, thank you for being here.
Mr. Mullin, if you wanted to finish that round of
questioning off, I am happen to yield to you a minute, as long
as, Jan, you are OK with that.
Ms. Schakowsky. I am fine.
Mr. Mullin. Go ahead, Joe, and I will jump in when you are
done.
Mr. Kennedy. I appreciate the witnesses here today, as I
said.
A number of topics that I think have come to light over the
course of this hearing, which I think we do need to dive it
down a bit more.
Obviously, I share some of the concerns that you heard from
Ms. Schakowsky around safety and security of our fighters. I
understand, Mr. Couture, your perspective that there is an
assumption of risk here, that you have an idea of what you are
getting into, and I appreciate that.
That being said, I think, Doctor, some of the research that
you were able to articulate, this is an issue we are seeing
across multiple professional sports at this point where there
are long-term safety effects that we also want to make sure
that people are going in with eyes wide hope. I appreciate that
as well.
I also wanted to call attention to an op-ed I believe in
today's Washington Examiner by an additional fighter, Mr.
Fitch, who echoed some of the points made by Mr. Couture and by
Mr. Mullin. He states in part over his career that, at one
point, following a defeat to Mr. St-Pierre, that he was
presented with a merchandising agreement, quoting from a letter
that is now in the record: ``So I was presented with a
merchandizing agreement by the promotion which required me to
grant them in perpetuity and for no compensation the right to
my image for use in a video game.''
He cites later that he was requested at one point to sign
over all rights, including after death.
Mr. Couture, is Mr. Fitch's experience with that similar to
circumstances that you have been going through, and is that
emblematic of some of the interactions with other fighters as
well?
Mr. Couture. Yes, sir. It is. I have fought with the
organization from the day they bought the company. When Zuffa
bought the UFC from SEG, the old company that owned the
property, I was the heavyweight champion at the time. I was due
to sign a new contract, and my management basically fought for
those ancillary rights, and it is because of that fight over
those ancillary rights, my name and likeness and all these
other categories that have nothing to do with the actual fight,
I am persona non grata with the company to this day.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Mullin.
Mr. Mullin. Thank you, Joe.
Mr. Ratner, a followup question: Did the UFC strip Conor
McGregor of his featherweight title and drop him from the
rankings, despite he had never lost the title in competition?
Mr. Ratner. He wasn't active in I believe the 145. He went
up to 155, and, yes, they took the title away.
Mr. Mullin. And they stripped him out of the rankings of
the top 10, despite he had never lost at 145?
Mr. Ratner. I believe so.
Mr. Mullin. Would that happen in boxing?
Mr. Ratner. I think it has happened in boxing.
Mr. Mullin. When they are inactive for how long?
Mr. Ratner. That I cannot say, but I know----
Mr. Mullin. Isn't it based on them passing fights, refusing
to fight for the title, and isn't it based on criteria before
they can just simply drop the title?
Mr. Ratner. In boxing, there must be maybe 10 to 12 world
sanctioning bodies, and they all have their own criteria, they
all have different rankings.
Mr. Mullin. But I am talking underneath the Ali Act,
because you were a proponent for the Ali Act when it was coming
out in boxing, you were a strong proponent for it because you
saw the need for the boxers, for the fighters, and a lot of it
was the manipulation that was going on in boxing. Is that
correct?
Mr. Ratner. Yes, 20 years ago, I----
Mr. Mullin. And you don't see any similarities right now on
the manipulation the way they do it?
Mr. Ratner. No. I don't.
Mr. Mullin. What about Nate Diaz who was dropped from the
UFC because he was involved in contract negotiations and he was
trying to negotiate with the UFC and they dropped him? Is that
not true?
Mr. Ratner. I don't pay attention to the rankings, but----
Mr. Mullin. Sir, you are involved in it all the time. Was
he not dropped from the UFC?
Mr. Ratner. He is still under contract to us and----
Mr. Mullin. I am talking about at the time.
Mr. Ratner. I am sure you will see him fight again.
Mr. Mullin. I know that, but the answer to that is yes, and
we go back to the same thing. When you were saying that boxers
are treated the same way, or MMA fighters are treated the same
way as boxers, what I am trying to draw here is they are not
even close. You make a broad statement like that; you are
misleading Congress.
Mr. Ratner. Not at all.
Mr. Mullin. And you are misleading the American people.
When you make those statements, clarify specifically on what it
is you are talking about because, once again, you are talking
about the health of the fighter. The Ali Act deals with the
financial compensation of the fighter. It also deals with the
merit-based ranking system.
I yield back.
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
The gentleman from Massachusetts' time has expired.
And the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Indiana for
5 minutes.
Mr. Bucshon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I was a surgeon before I came to Congress, so actually this
situation really does interest me quite a bit because of the
medical aspects of what we are talking about here today. And I
think, as you mentioned, adults understand what the risks are,
and they participate based on the known risk.
It seems to me, though, one of the things when you are
balancing risk/benefits, is you have to also be able to assess
what your financial goals might be. Would you agree with that?
If you are going to fight and assess the risk as a professional
fighter, one of the considerations is on how many times you
fight and for how long you fight is what your financial future
might hold for you. Would you agree or disagree with that?
Mr. Couture. I would absolutely agree with that. Mr. Sirb
mentioned if I know how big the pie is for a specific event
that I am training for and going to compete in, then I have a
fair opportunity, if I am unrestricted, to negotiate for my
fair share of that pie, and that is less pies down the road
that I have to get involved in which put my health and well-
being at the----
Mr. Bucshon. Right. If you are essentially, as you
mentioned, you have to fight six times a year to meet some
financial goals, and you may or may not meet those----
Mr. Couture. To use Mr. Ratner's----
Mr. Bucshon. It is more exposure potentially to the health
risk.
Mr. Couture. To use Mr. Ratner's assumption that at least
every fighter minimally gets $10,000 to show up and $10,000 if
he wins, even at that rate, that is $20,000, take out my
training expenses and all the other expenses I have as an
athlete, I am going to at least have to fight four, five, six
times a year to make a reasonable living by today's standards.
Mr. Bucshon. Do you get charged for the other expenses? For
example, an entertainer that goes on tour, right, their
contracts usually have whatever it takes to set up the stage
and to take down the stage and have the people run the lights
and all that. I am just curious, are fighters--is there a fee--
--
Mr. Couture. Fighters' expenses are dealing with his
preparation, his trainers, his gym, food, supplementation,
insurance of any kind.
Mr. Bucshon. Travel to and from the fight?
Mr. Couture. Travel is usually taken care of.
Mr. Bucshon. That is usually covered. OK. I am just trying
to clarify the financial structure here.
Mr. Couture. As far as venues and setup and promotions for
displaying the actual competition, that is up to the promoter.
Mr. Bucshon. Is there a way a fighter can understand what
the financial results are of an event? Is there transparency
there for a fighter?
Mr. Couture. There is no transparency in place now in mixed
martial arts. They don't have to disclose any of that
information, and you can find it on public record if you have
the wherewithal to go look it up.
Mr. Bucshon. OK.
Mr. Ratner, how do you determine how much to pay fighters?
Mr. Ratner. As I stated, they have to sign a contract to
fight for us. Most of those contracts are 2 to 3 years. So when
they come in----
Mr. Bucshon. In the contract, does it talk about financial
compensation or just----
Mr. Ratner. Yes. So, for a brand new fighter, maybe the
first three fights of his career, they are paid $10,000. You
win those three fights; then they are paid another amount. It
goes in steps.
Mr. Bucshon. At any point in those contracts, is there
revenue sharing at all, or is it just a flat fee?
Mr. Ratner. For a beginning fighter, no. They are signing--
--
Mr. Bucshon. Which is consistent with maybe the
entertainment industry and other things. I totally understand
that. Right.
Mr. Ratner. You asked about some of the other costs. The
UFC picks up all those costs. When we have a fight, we bring
them in on Tuesday, not on Friday or Saturday. We weigh them to
start with.
And I just want to say again that I am for the fighters. I
am for the health and safety part. That is my most important
part.
Mr. Bucshon. I think when you assess risk/benefit of
participating in a sport, the financial aspects of it are an
important part that you have to assess, right? And professional
athletes will tell you that, and they know the risks, but if
you are going to make $10 million for a fight, well----
Mr. Ratner. But nobody forces----
Mr. Bucshon. Mr. Sirb, I have got a few minutes here. You
mentioned in your written testimony, there had been no legal
cases brought to trial under the original Ali Act. Why is that?
Mr. Sirb. Correct. The Ali Act has been very hard to
enforce. We at the national association have written to
numerous state attorneys general who have the authority to
enforce the act. We have never got any cooperation from any of
them.
Mr. Bucshon. OK. Thank you. My time has expired.
Mr. Latta. The gentleman's time has expired.
The chair again recognizes the gentlelady from Illinois,
the ranking member of the subcommittee.
Ms. Schakowsky. I am going to yield my time to Mr. Pallone.
Mr. Latta. The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I wanted to ask Mr. Ratner some questions about sports
betting and as it relates to MMA, to some extent, in Nevada.
Legal sports betting is supported by a majority of
Americans, but outdated Federal law still prevents states that
want to legalize it from doing so.
My bill, which I mentioned, the GAME Act, would modernize
Federal law and allow states to legalize sports betting as long
as strong safeguards that protect consumers and the integrity
of the game are in place.
UFC is headquartered in Las Vegas, the center of legalized
sports betting in the U.S. So I just wanted to ask you a couple
questions, Mr. Ratner.
UFC operates all over the world. Is betting on UFC fights
legal in other countries, to your knowledge?
Mr. Ratner. I know offshore there is betting everywhere. In
Nevada, all our fights are put on what they call the board. You
can bet on from the first fight through the last.
And I just want to say, personally, not for the UFC, but I
am in favor of sports betting around the world, around the
country especially.
Mr. Pallone. Thank you.
What does UFC do to ensure integrity and transparency in
MMA matches?
Mr. Ratner. They make the bets competitive, is really what
the words we use. Very seldom do you see a fight that odds-wise
is 10 to 1, or 15 to 1, or 20 to 1. They are all pretty close.
And, yes, there is betting, and we don't encourage fighters
to go in there to the sports book. We certainly don't want them
betting against themselves. That would be certainly illegal.
But, yes, I see nothing wrong with it. I saw Evander Holyfield
fight Mike Tyson, and his whole camp bet on him, and they got
big odds, and they walked away happen.
Mr. Pallone. In your experience, has the availability of
sports betting affected fans' interest and engagement in UFC
fights?
Mr. Ratner. Absolutely, it really is meaningful and you see
in all our broadcasts that fighter A is a 2-to-1 favorite over
fighter B, and people bet.
Mr. Pallone. Now, you were previously the executive
director of the Nevada state Athletic Commission, and since you
have joined UFC, you have helped UFC get licensed to operate in
Nevada and other states.
Is UFC subject to any state regulation in the U.S. that
helps ensure integrity and transparency when it comes to sports
betting?
Mr. Ratner. Well, the only state that has sports betting is
Nevada right now, I think that if your legislation goes
through. But I work strictly with the athletic commissions, and
whatever rules they have--each state is a little bit
different--we adhere to. We run to regulation. It is very
important to us, but when it comes to sports betting outside
the state of Nevada, I cannot answer that.
Mr. Pallone. Now, what would happen if there was an
allegation of unfair play or match fixing? Does the UFC have a
process in place to respond to those allegations if there were
such an allegation of unfair play or match fixing?
Mr. Ratner. Well, we have a whole legal team. There has
never been a case of match fixing in the UFC, but we would
address it, absolutely.
Mr. Pallone. OK. And even in states that haven't legalized
sports betting, people are still wagering illegally on UFC
fights and other sporting events, correct?
Mr. Ratner. Well, I know there is offshore betting. I do
know that. I don't know if it is illegal to go on the internet
and bet on it. I cannot answer that directly, but we are
certainly aware of it.
Mr. Pallone. All right. Now sports betting in Nevada has
been legal for decades, and the state has comprehensive
regulations in place to govern and tax sports betting. So, Mr.
Ratner, does legalizing sports betting and bringing it into the
sunshine you think help sports leagues that are trying to
protect the integrity of their games?
Mr. Ratner. Yes. I think that it is very, very important.
In the state of Nevada, the sports books uncovered a basketball
point shaving, just because, all of a sudden, all the money
went on a different team, and they knew something was wrong. So
I think it is very important for the integrity of all sports.
Mr. Pallone. How would legalizing sports betting in states
other than Nevada affect UFC's efforts to ensure integrity in
MMA fights, do you think?
Mr. Ratner. I think it would be the same as Nevada.
Wherever they would want to have it, we welcome it, and I think
it would be a boon to the different states.
Mr. Pallone. All right. My last question is does the UFC
support the expansion of legalized sports betting to other
states in the U.S. as long as strong safeguards to protect
consumers and ensure the integrity of the sport were in place?
I guess you gave me your opinion, but does that reflect the
UFC, or just your own personal----
Mr. Ratner. That is my opinion. We have new owners, and I
don't want to say something that may be misinterpreted. But as
far as I am concerned, I am completely for it nationwide.
Mr. Pallone. All right. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
And the chair recognizes the gentlelady from Illinois, the
ranking member of the subcommittee for 5 minutes.
Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you. At our 2016 hearing on mixed
martial arts, we heard from the Association of Boxing
Commissions and Combat Sports, the National Organization of
State Regulators, that the association has generally, ``taken a
position against youth participation.'' But youth interest in
MMA is growing, and the UFC offers MMA classifies and boot
camps for children as young as 6 years old.
Dr. Dams-O'Connor, kids' and teens' brains are still
developing. Can concussions and other forms of traumatic brain
jury cause more damage and last longer in kids and teens than
adults?
Ms. Dams-O'Connor. So this is definitely an evolving area
of research. A recent study actually found that exposure to
head trauma through contact sports incurred greater risks for
people who were exposed before the age of 12, a somewhat
arbitrary cut point. But in general, the probably conventional
logic amongst researchers is that earlier exposure is
associated with worse outcomes.
Ms. Schakowsky. Does suffering a traumatic brain injury
when you are young make you more vulnerable, is there research
on this, to additional brain injuries in the future?
Ms. Dams-O'Connor. Yes. So one of the greatest population
level risk factors for sustaining a subsequent traumatic brain
injury is having sustained a previous traumatic brain injury.
So yes.
Ms. Schakowsky. Are you concerned that 6-year-olds are
participating in MMA?
Ms. Dams-O'Connor. It depends on the extent to which
proactive measures are being taken to ensure the safety of
those kids, to the extent that kids are being taught to fall
safely, to limit or prevent head trauma exposure.
Again, I think that the benefits of sports participation
need to be weighed against those risks, but it is a pretty
young age, and it certainly raises some increased concerns.
Ms. Schakowsky. So are there any precautions that could
ease your concerns if they were put into place?
Ms. Dams-O'Connor. I think that, at that age, the most
prudent approach would be extreme caution in terms of actually
limiting and penalizing any head trauma exposure in the
youngest athletes.
Ms. Schakowsky. Isn't that what is kind of central to the
sport?
Ms. Dams-O'Connor. Essentially, but I think that there is a
lot about martial arts, including MMA, that has to do with
athletic development, with physical development, with life
lessons. So a lot of that would ideally be preserved. In the
youngest athletes, however--again, there is no safe age at
which sustaining a TBI--it is not safe at any age. In the
youngest athletes, it is particularly unsafe. I think long ago,
it was thought that, because of neuroplasticity, younger people
recovered better after a brain injury, but we now know that
that is not the case. In fact, the developing brain is most
vulnerable to long-term effects of brain injury.
Ms. Schakowsky. In a 2016 study, researchers found that a
third of MMA fights end in a knockout. I want to talk a bit
about knockouts or a technical knockout. In fact, UFC fighters
can earn bonuses of $25,000 to $50,000 if they win a fight with
a knockout or technical knockout.
A technical knockout occurs when the referee decides a
fighter cannot safely continue, while a knockout is the loss of
consciousness.
So we have heard from experts that the greatest risk factor
for TBI is a previous TBI. I just wanted to get to the issue of
knockouts.
In your view, are fighters who have previously been knocked
out more susceptible to being knocked out again in subsequent
fights?
Ms. Dams-O'Connor. I think the reach would support that
notion that someone who has previously sustained a knockout is
not just at risk for subsequently sustaining another traumatic
brain injury but also for slower recovery after each subsequent
brain injury.
Ms. Schakowsky. So, if that is the goal of the sport--that
is, you make more money if you knock someone out--and there is
general agreement that that is dangerous, translating that to
youth sports, isn't that a problem? The kids like this because
probably they are watching adults in the MMA sports.
Ms. Dams-O'Connor. It is an enormous problem. Any sport
that has as a goal traumatic brain injury with loss of
consciousness is tremendously concerning. Over the years, the
regulations that have been applied to MMA and to boxing have
changed. They differ across state lines, and the sport has
changed in response. It is not unprecedented that changes in
regulation have actually changed the sport.
In MMA, there is a lot of competition that involves
technique and skill that has nothing to do with incurring head
trauma. A lot of the sport would be preserved even if knockouts
became no longer an acceptable component of the sport.
Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you.
I yield back.
Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
The gentlewoman yields back.
And the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Texas for 5
minutes.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank the chair and the ranking member for having
the hearing today.
As several of our witnesses pointed out, the popularity of
mixed martial arts has grown significantly in recent years.
This hearing is a good opportunity to look at the increasing
important industry of the MMA and try to see where Federal law
can both support its success and help make sure the fighters
are protected.
Mr. Couture, can you tell us about the current ranking
system of MMA impact fighters?
Mr. Couture. The current ranking system in mixed martial
arts is set up and is established by the promoter himself. So
Bellator has their own rankings. UFC has their own rankings.
Professional Fight League has their own rankings. They
establish those rankings based on the fighters that are under
contract with that promotion. They create their own titles and
have those fighters that are under contract with them fight for
those rankings and those titles.
There is no independent organization established that
crosses and covers the entire sport for rankings and/or titles
at this time.
Mr. Green. How much does a fighter's athletic ability
contribute to their rank, since there are no standards?
Mr. Couture. Well, as I stated in my comment, there is no
real regulated amateur sport at this time, and I think that
that is something that our sport needs to address. We need a
sanctioning body or an amateur sports organization that covers
mixed martial arts nationwide, like USA Wrestling or USA Boxing
or USA Taekwondo or USA Judo, that would regulate the amateur
sport, and then you would see young athletes that compete in a
watered-down version of MMA.
To assume that we are having 6-year-olds beating the hell
out of each other, frankly, like a professional mixed martial
artist, I don't think that is what we are seeing. I don't think
that is what happens.
Are they training in mixed martial arts? Absolutely.
Learning submission skills and the general body movements and
they are training on striking and all those things, but they
are not competing and trying to knock each other out. Contact
is part of every sport. My sister was subjected to concussions
in soccer from heading a soccer ball. It is there. We all know
the inherent risk in the sports we partake in. But I think you
are right: mitigating that risk is important.
But rankings would come through that amateur system. As I
came out of wrestling, there was no professional outlet for me
as an amateur wrestler, as an Olympic caliber wrestler. I
forayed into mixed martial arts because I could use all those
skills in mixed martial arts. I had to learn a lot of other
skills as well, the striking and the other things that weren't
encompassed in wrestling, but I had a certain level of
expectation placed upon me, but there was no official ranking
because of my wrestling background. It doesn't really exist in
mixed martial arts right now.
Mr. Green. So you think an independent ranking system would
change the MMA industry?
Mr. Couture. I think an independent ranking system--we were
just talking about a world championship. Well, there was no
other athlete from any of these other promotions that was
included in that ranking or able to even compete for that world
championship. So how is that a true world championship? It is
basically ceremony for that particular promotion to say that is
the world championship.
If we had an independent ranking system that included all
the promotions that have fighters signed to their promotion and
rank them with some criteria that is officially recognized by
the athletic commissions, then we could have promoters compete
to make those best fights happen, and those fighters could then
be remunerated for the possibility to fight for that real world
championship.
Mr. Green. Since we are looking at this legislation on the
Muhammad Ali Act, do you have any recommendations on ways that
MMA fighters and promotion companies might be able to reduce
the risk of head injury?
Mr. Couture. I think right now with current medical
requirements by most all the state and Tribal athletic
commissions, CT scans, regular physicals and checkups,
suspension processes that are put into place by athletes that
are TKO'd or KO'd for at least a minimum of 90 days after a
fight, a lot of the regulations that are in place now from the
athletic commissions are working. Is it inherent risk in
training? Absolutely. But we as fighters, the last thing I want
to do is sustain a concussion or get knocked on my butt while I
am in that 10-week training camp going into a fight. So I train
with very specific guys that I know, that I trust. I wear head
gear a lot of times. I use bigger, more padded gloves than I
will on the night of the fight when it is on the line to
mitigate that possibility that I sustain a cut or that I get a
concussion going into that fight. We are smart. We are not out
there just trying to beat the hell out of each other.
Mr. Green. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman. I know I
am out of time, but you told us that the MMA fighters would
have more economic independence to ensure they can operate as
independent contractors. Can you tell how that would work and
how--an example of you give fighters more control over who they
fight or how many times a year they fight?
Mr. Couture. We are independent contractors now. I was an
independent contractor when I was under contract with the UFC.
That is how our sport is set up. So it is up to me what I get
paid for the times I fight, to regulate my taxes and all those
other things as an independent contractor. I am not an employee
of that promoter. I am signed on an independent contract with
him as an independent contractor.
If I was allowed to cross promotion lines, my example was
the Fedor Emelianenko fight. He was signed with Pride; I was
signed with the UFC. Those are promotions. They promote fights.
But there was no crossover. It wasn't allowed. There was no way
for me to go fight what most people in the media felt was the
number one fighter in the world, Fedor Emelianenko, because I
was signed to an exclusive contract with the UFC.
This is that coercive--if I want to be ranked and fight for
that promotion, I have to sign that exclusive contract, sign
away all my ancillary rights in perpetuity in a whole bunch of
categories that are worth a lot of money. And I am not allowed
to go and fight that guy that I want to fight that would have
been a Super Bowl of mixed martial arts at that time.
Mr. Green. Mr. Chairman, I know I was way over time. I
thank you.
Mr. Latta. The gentleman's times has expired.
And seeing no other members here to ask questions, again, I
want to thank our witnesses for testifying before the
subcommittee today.
And I would like to include the following documents be
submitted for the record by unanimous consent: the statement of
Ms. Tracey Lesetar-Smith at Bellator MMA; a letter from Mr. Jon
Fitch, professional MMA fighter; on behalf of the UFC, a letter
to the Committee on Energy and Commerce and the Committee on
Education and Workforce; a New York Times Magazine article; two
National Review articles; a Washington Examiner article; and a
Daily Caller article.
[The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
Mr. Latta. Pursuant to committee rules, I remind members
that they have 10 business days to submit additional questions
for the record, and I ask that the witnesses submit their
response within 10 business days upon receipt of those
questions.
And, without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:49 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]
Prepared statement of Hon. Greg Walden
Good Morning, and thank you to all of our witnesses for
appearing before this Committee today. Thank you especially to
Mr. Couture-although I understand you were born in Washington
State, you have spent enough time in Oregon that for purposes
of this hearing we will consider you an honorary Oregonian. \1\
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\1\ For reference only: Mr. Couture lived in Corvallis, where he
served as a wrestling and strength coach for OSU, and he started ``Team
Quest,'' a training camp for MMA fighters, out of Gresham. For a time
he was listed as ``fighting out of Roseburg, OR'' on his MMA profile.
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This hearing will also examine H.R. 44, the Muhammad Ali
Expansion Act, sponsored by our colleague Congressman Markwayne
Mullin of Oklahoma. I look forward to a thoughtful discussion.
Mixed martial arts have enjoyed tremendous popularity since
UFC 1 was held almost exactly 24 years ago in Denver, Colorado,
on November 12, 1993. Since that event the sport has grown to
be an international sensation, viewed in 1.1 billion homes in
156 countries around the globe. And it is an economic
powerhouse: last year the UFC sold for $4 billion, and both UFC
and Bellator compete for contracts with the most well-known and
accomplished fighters that battle at widely-attended events.
In the U.S., mixed martial arts bouts are subject to
regulation in all 50 states. These regulations are primarily
concerned with protecting the integrity of the sport and the
safety of the fighters.
In many ways MMA's regulation is similar to that of boxing,
but the two sports have differences beyond merely the tactics
employed by the fighters. Unlike in boxing, MMA has no
centralized ranking system, and title bouts are largely
determined by the promoters of the sport. Fighters are treated
as independent contractors, and enter into agreements with the
promoters of a particular MMA organization, which may contain
exclusivity clauses barring the fighter from engaging in
unapproved fights.
The growth of MMA in the United States has been a
tremendous success story. At today's hearing we look forward to
hearing the witnesses describe their experiences as regulators,
competitors and promoters, and to learn about any ideas or
recommendations that can help MMA continue to thrive. This
Committee is committed to ensuring the safety and well-being of
the athletes, healthy competition among promoters, and support
for our state regulators.
Thank you and I yield back the balance of my time.
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