    [House Hearing, 115 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                       PERSPECTIVES ON MIXED MARTIAL ARTS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

            SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIGITAL COMMERCE AND CONSUMER PROTECTION

                                     OF THE

                        COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                NOVEMBER 9, 2017

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 115-76

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

          Printed for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce
                            energycommerce.house.gov
                                       ______

                             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    28-335                         WASHINGTON : 2018

                        COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE

                              GREG WALDEN, Oregon
                                     Chairman
    JOE BARTON, Texas                    FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
      Vice Chairman                        Ranking Member
    FRED UPTON, Michigan                 BOBBY L. RUSH, Illinois
    JOHN SHIMKUS, Illinois               ANNA G. ESHOO, California
    MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas            ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
    MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee          GENE GREEN, Texas
    STEVE SCALISE, Louisiana             DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
    ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio                MICHAEL F. DOYLE, Pennsylvania
    CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington   JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
    GREGG HARPER, Mississippi            G.K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina
    LEONARD LANCE, New Jersey            DORIS O. MATSUI, California
    BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky              KATHY CASTOR, Florida
    PETE OLSON, Texas                    JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
    DAVID B. McKINLEY, West Virginia     JERRY McNERNEY, California
    ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois             PETER WELCH, Vermont
    H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia         BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
    GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida            PAUL TONKO, New York
    BILL JOHNSON, Ohio                   YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
    BILLY LONG, Missouri                 DAVID LOEBSACK, Iowa
    LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana               KURT SCHRADER, Oregon
    BILL FLORES, Texas                   JOSEPH P. KENNEDY, III,
    SUSAN W. BROOKS, Indiana                 Massachusetts
    MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma           TONY CARDENAS, California
    RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina       RAUL RUIZ, California
    CHRIS COLLINS, New York              SCOTT H. PETERS, California
    KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota           DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
    TIM WALBERG, Michigan
    MIMI WALTERS, California
    RYAN A. COSTELLO, Pennsylvania
    EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia
    JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina

            Subcommittee on Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection

                             ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio
                                     Chairman
                                         JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
                                           Ranking Member
    GREGG HARPER, Mississippi            BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
      Vice Chairman                      YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
    FRED UPTON, Michigan                 TONY CARDENAS, California
    MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas            DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
    LEONARD LANCE, New Jersey            DORIS O. MATSUI, California
    BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky              PETER WELCH, Vermont
    DAVID B. McKINLEY, West Virgina      JOSEPH P. KENNEDY, III,
    ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois                 Massachusetts
    GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida            GENE GREEN, Texas
    LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana               FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey (ex
    MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma               officio)
    MIMI WALTERS, California
    RYAN A. COSTELLO, Pennsylvania
    GREG WALDEN, Oregon (ex officio)

                                 C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page
    Hon. Robert E. Latta, a Representative in Congress from the State
      of Ohio, opening statement.....................................     1
        Prepared statement...........................................     2
    Hon. Markwayne Mullin, a Representative in Congress from the
      State of Oklahoma, opening statement...........................     3
    Hon. Janice D. Schakowsky, a Representative in Congress from the
      State of Illinois, opening statement...........................     4
    Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
      State of New Jersey, opening statement.........................     5
    Hon. Greg Walden, a Representative in Congress from the State of
      Oregon, prepared statement.....................................    62

                                   Witnesses

    Marc Ratner, Vice President of Regulatory Affairs, UFC...........     7
        Prepared statement...........................................    10
    Greg Sirb, Executive Director, Pennsylvania State Athletic
      Commission.....................................................    15
        Prepared statement...........................................    17
    Kristen Dams-O'Connor, M.A., Ph.D., Director, Brain Injury
      Research Center, Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai.......    30
        Prepared statement...........................................    32
    Randy Couture, President, Xtreme Couture MMA.....................    40
        Prepared statement...........................................    42

                               Submitted material

    Statement of Bellator MMA........................................    64
    Statement of Mr. Jon Fitch, professional MMA fighter.............    67
    Statement of groups on behalf of the UFC.........................    30
    Article entitled, ``Women have been boxing in the shadows for too
      long,'' The New York Times Magazine, August 15, 2016...........    73
    Article entitled, ``The Feds want to go into the matchmaking
      business,'' National Review, December 7, 2016..................    78
    Article entitled, ``Don't let Congress put a choke hold on mixed
      martial Aarts,'' National Review, November 5, 2017.............    80
    Article entitled, ``When did micromanaging mixed martial arts
      become Congress' job?'' Washington Examiner, December 7, 2016..    83
    Article entitled, ``The GOP shouldn't be growing the regulatory
      state,'' The Daily Caller, December 8, 2016....................    86

                       PERSPECTIVES ON MIXED MARTIAL ARTS

                                  ----------

                           THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 2017

                      House of Representatives,
         Subcommittee on Digital Commerce and Consumer
                                            Protection,
                              Committee on Energy and Commerce,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:02 a.m., in
    room 2123, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Robert Latta,
    (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
        Present: Representatives Latta, Harper, Burgess, Lance,
    Guthrie, Bilirakis, Bucshon, Mullin, Walters, Costello, Duncan,
    Schakowsky, Lujan, Welch, Kennedy, Green, and Pallone (ex
    officio).
        Staff Present: Kelly Collins, Staff Assistant; Zachary
    Dareshori, Staff Assistant; Melissa Froelich, Chief Counsel,
    DCCP; Adam Fromm, Director of Outreach and Coalitions; Ali
    Fulling, Legislative Clerk, O&I, DCCP; Elena Hernandez, Press
    Secretary; Zach Hunter, Director of Communications; Paul
    Jackson, Professional Staff, DCCP; Bijan Koohmaraie, Counsel,
    DCCP; Katie McKeogh, Press Assistant; Alex Miller, Video
    Production Aide and Press Assistant; Madeline Vey, Policy
    Coordinator, DCCP; Jessica Wilkerson, Professional Staff, O&I;
    Greg Zerzan, Counsel, DCCP; Michelle Ash, Minority Chief
    Counsel, Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection; Jeff
    Carroll, Minority Staff Director; Lisa Goldman, Minority
    Counsel; Caroline Paris-Behr, Minority Policy Analyst; and C.J.
    Young, Minority Press Secretary.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT E. LATTA, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
                    CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OHIO

        Mr. Latta. Good morning. I would like to call the
    Subcommittee on Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection to
    order. And the chair now recognizes himself for 5 minutes for
    an opening statement.
        Good morning, and thank you to our witnesses for being here
    to discuss the mixed martial arts, or MMA, this morning. This
    sport has enjoyed tremendous success since its beginnings in
    the 1990s. I would like to thank my colleague from Oklahoma,
    Mr. Mullin, for his continued work on this issue in promoting
    safety for fighters. I look forward to learning more this
    morning about MMA and Mr. Mullin's legislation as we hear the
    testimony this morning.
        The history of mixed martial arts goes back to Ancient
    Greece when the first Olympians in the 7th century B.C. fought.
    Today's MMA is far more regulated. All 50 states permit the
    sport, subject to rules governing issues like banned
    substances, equipment requirements, round length, weight
    classes, and allowing referees and physicians to hock a fight
    to protect the competitors. In some ways, MMA is regulated in a
    similar matter to boxing. However, there are differences.
        We look forward to hearing more about how MMA operates and
    is regulated today. Mixed martial arts competitions are held
    throughout the United States under the banner of both
    professional and amateur sponsors. The unified rules of mixed
    martial arts have been adopted by the largest organizers and
    regulators, including the Ultimate Fighting Championship,
    Bellator, and the Association of Boxing Commissions and
    Combative Sports.
        The rules include requirements for the fighting area,
    equipment, how fights are to be judged, the use of gloves,
    mouthpieces, and the prohibition of certain tactics like biting
    and gouging. MMA includes both men's and women's divisions, and
    in both cases, the champions of the sport have become
    internationally known celebrities.
        Nothing else rates this point more clearly than the recent
    boxing match between MMA champion Conor McGregor and boxer
    Floyd Mayweather, Jr., which reportedly drew hundreds of
    millions of viewers around the globe, including a near record
    number of pay-per-view purchases and nearly 27 million social
    media interactions.
        MMA has gone through many changes in its comparatively
    short time, as a high-profile American sport. At the hearing
    today, we will hear testimony about how the sport is regulated,
    how competitors and promoters are compensated, and what it
    takes to compete at a high level. We will hear about what state
    regulators are doing to ensure fighter safety and learn more
    about how it has become one of America's fastest growing
    sports.
        I thank our witnesses for joining us today, and I look
    forward to your testimony. At this time, I will yield to the
    gentleman from Oklahoma.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Latta follows:]

                   Prepared statement of Hon. Robert E. Latta

        Good morning, and thank you to our witnesses for being here
    today to discuss Mixed Martial Arts, or MMA. This sport has
    enjoyed tremendous success since its beginnings in the 1990s. I
    would like to thank my colleague from Oklahoma, Mr. Mullin, for
    his continued work on this issue and promoting safety for
    fighters. I look forward to learning more about this industry
    and Mr. Mullin's legislation this morning.
        The history of mixed martial arts goes back all the way to
    Ancient Greece, when the first Olympians in the 7th Century
    B.C. fought. Today's MMA is far more regulated-all 50 States
    permit the sport, subject to rules governing things like banned
    substances, equipment requirements, round length, weight
    classes, and allowing referees and physicians to halt a fight
    to protect the competitors.
        In some ways MMA is regulated in a manner similar to
    boxing, however there are differences. We look forward to
    learning more about how the industry operates and is regulated
    today.
        Mixed martial arts competitions are held throughout the
    United States, under the banner of both professional and
    amateur sponsors. The Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts have
    been adopted by the largest organizers and regulators,
    including the Ultimate Fighting Championship, Bellator, and the
    Association of Boxing Commissions and Combative Sports. The
    rules include requirements for the fighting area and equipment,
    how fights are to be judged, the use of gloves and mouthpieces,
    and the prohibition of certain tactics like biting and gouging.
        MMA bouts include both men's and women's divisions, and in
    both cases the champions of the sport have become
    internationally known celebrities. Nothing illustrates this
    point more clearly than the recent boxing match between MMA
    champion Conor McGregor and boxing great Floyd Mayweather Jr.,
    which reportedly drew hundreds of millions of viewers around
    the globe, including a near record number of pay-per-view
    purchases and nearly 27 million social media interactions.
        MMA has gone through many changes in its comparatively
    short time as a high profile American sport. At the hearing
    today, we will receive testimony about how the sport is
    regulated, how competitors and promoters are compensated, and
    what it takes to compete at a high level. We will hear about
    what state regulators are doing to ensure fighter safety, and
    learn more about how it has come to be one of America's fastest
    growing sports.
        I thank our witnesses for joining us today, and we look
    forward to your testimony.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARKWAYNE MULLIN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
                  CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA

        Mr. Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you for allowing us to have this legislative
    hearing on H.R. 44, the Muhammad Ali Expansion Act, and learn
    more about this growing industry.
        Many times we get asked the question, why is Congress
    involved in this? Well, it is the same reason why we got
    involved in boxing with the Muhammad Ali Act. Right now, we
    have actors that are acting like the Don King of the MMA world.
    MMA has become an interstate commerce. Congress has the
    responsibility when we are talking about commerce moving across
    state lines. MMA is supposed to be a professional sport, much
    like NFL, the MLB, and the NBA. But, without a merit-based
    ranking system, then how is it going to be any more than a WWE?
        Right now, we have a ranking system that is based more on
    market and marketing value than it is merit-based. In the UFC
    history, we see more and more fights being not fought for title
    fights but simply a trophy. And when you have a number one
    ranked individual not fighting for the title shot, but you have
    in the last three fights--Bisping versus Luke for the title
    fight at 185 pounds, you had number four, Bisping, fighting for
    the title. The first defending was against Dan Henderson for
    Bisping, who wasn't even in the top 10.
        And then, just recently, this weekend, you had a retired
    fighter of 4 years that had had the belt at 170 pounds, but
    came out in his first professional fight in 4 years, fight for
    the title shot, at 185 pounds. How is that a merit-based
    system? How can we sit there and honestly say to the consumers
    that are spending millions of dollars with a professional
    sport, or what they perceive to be, when they are using a
    ranking system that is not merit-based?
        The UFC is an interstate commerce industry now. Congress
    does have a role to oversee and to make sure that the consumers
    know the product to which they are buying. As I said before,
    there is a reason why Congress stepped up and kept people like
    Don King from manipulating fighters in the boxing world. If it
    was good enough for boxing, then it should be good enough for
    other combative sports, such as MMA.
        This legislation is about protecting the fighters and
    sustaining a sport which I love, which I have given blood and
    sweat and have dedicated a tremendous amount of time to. We
    want to see this sport sustainable for future generations, and
    the Muhammad Ali Expansion Act does just that.
        So I look forward to hearing our witnesses, and I
    appreciate your all's time, and I appreciate the opportunity
    that the committee has given me here.
        And I yield back.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        And the gentleman yields back.
        At this time, the chair now recognizes the ranking member
    of the subcommittee, the gentlelady from Illinois, for 5
    minutes.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, A
         REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

        Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I was new to MMA when we had our first hearing on the
    subject a year ago. I have learned a lot since then. I actually
    did some research for today's hearing. I watched a few
    highlighted videos of UFC fights. They were a little bloody,
    more bloody than I would like for my taste. I don't think I am
    going to become a regular viewer, but I know a lot of people
    like it and are involved in the sport.
        I have also met with several MMA fighters. First of all,
    what they do seems absolutely crazy to me. But if they are
    going to fight, I believe they should be able to negotiate for
    higher pay, improved safety, and working conditions, and have
    more control over themselves.
        Congressman Mullin and I come to this issue from different
    perspectives. He was an MMA fighter. I am a long-time advocate
    for safety and labor rights, and today that puts us on the same
    side. I am proud to join him as a cosponsor of H.R. 44, the
    Muhammad Ali Expansion Act.
        And now that we are holding our second MMA hearing in 12
    months, I think our subcommittee is ready to advance the
    Muhammad Ali Expansion Act.
        I expect that the bill would get strong bipartisan support
    in a markup. I am happy to talk with Congressman Mullin and
    Chairman Latta about a path forward for this legislation.
    Negotiating power for fighters is interlinked with safety. If
    you only get paid when you enter the octagon, you feel pressure
    to fight through an injury, putting yourself at greater risk.
        UFC encourages hard hits to the head by paying out bonuses
    to fighters who win by knockouts or a technical knockout. It
    might make sense for good TV, but it also puts fighters at
    greater risk of traumatic brain injury. Fighters have to secure
    their own health insurance, and low pay may push fighters to
    sign on for more fights in a year than is best for their long-
    term health.
        Brain injuries are a real risk for MMA fighters. Last year,
    Jordan Parsons became the first MMA fighter to be diagnosed
    with chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE. He died at 25
    years old. CTE is not a new subject for this subcommittee. We
    discussed it in the football context at a forum last year, and
    11 months ago, Dr. Ann McKee of Boston University testified
    about CTE risks in our previous hearing on MMA.
        I look forward to continuing our examination of brain
    injury risks with Dr. Kristen Dams-O'Connor from Mount Sinai.
    Her research has focused on the long-term outcome of people who
    suffer traumatic brain injuries. Very relevant to the types of
    injuries we see in MMA. Fighters should know the risks when
    they enter the ring, and organizers should want to change the
    rules and incentives to mitigate that risk in the first place.
        I especially worry about young fighters who can experience
    traumatic brain injury while their brains are still developing.
    Today, I want to hear specific suggestions for how to make MMA
    safer for its young participants. Our discussion of safety
    really comes down to the future of the sport.
        We have seen a steep drop in youth participation in
    football as more parents learn the risks of CTE. MMA has had a
    rise in popularity in recent years, but that could be
    jeopardized if athletes' parents and family members decide the
    risk is too much.
        Finally, I want to raise the issue of domestic violence. In
    2015, HBO reported that the rate of domestic violence among MMA
    fighters is double the rate of the general population. We have
    seen multiple instances of athletes with athletes' histories of
    domestic violence being welcomed into the sport. Domestic
    violence cannot be accepted as normal. I hope all actors in the
    industry take this problem seriously.
        I do thank all the witnesses for being here today, and I
    look forward to your testimony. And I yield back.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        The gentlelady yields back.
        The chair of the full committee is not here right now.
    Would anyone like to claim the chairman's time?
        Hearing none, the chair recognizes the ranking member of
    the full committee, the gentleman from New Jersey, for 5
    minutes.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE
                IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY

        Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Today's hearing is on mixed martial arts, or MMA, a full
    contact sport that has risen in popularity over the last
    several years, and youth interest in the sport has followed.
    MMA camps start for children as young as 6, and this year, a
    15-year-old fought against a 23-year-old in a sanctioned match
    in Montana. And I am hoping we can spend some time today
    talking about participation of kids and teens in this sport.
        For several years, this committee has been following the
    issue surrounding sports and head trauma. Most recently,
    Democratic members held a forum last month with our Judiciary
    Committee Democratic colleagues on the long-term effects of
    football-related brain injuries. And while much of the
    attention on sports and head trauma has focused on football,
    head injuries from MMA are real and concerning.
        An MMA fighter was diagnosed post-mortem with CTE last
    year. And retired fighters who were still living had reported
    headaches, forgetfulness, loss of train of thought, and other
    effects that are similar to Alzheimer's disease. We have known
    for some time that getting hit in the head is simply not good
    for you, but we are learning more and more about the effects of
    cumulative hits to the head over time and how head trauma is
    particularly dangerous to children.
        Adults need to know the full long-term risks so they can
    make informed choices to participate in contact sports. But I
    am most worried about the risks to children. Studies show that
    brain injuries in children can be more serious, and we need to
    focus on how we can reduce the risks for children who engage in
    MMA.
        It has been less than a year since our subcommittee's last
    hearing on MMA in December 2016. And while these hearings are
    raising legitimate issues that deserve to be heard, I would be
    remiss if I did not raise another sports issue deserving the
    committee's review as well as the subcommittee. There is a
    revolution in the world of sports, and that is the exploding
    popularity of sports betting. So, Mr. Chairman, sports betting
    is more popular and widely accepted than ever before, despite
    that it is still illegal in most of the country. The majority
    of Americans now believe that sports betting should be legal,
    and since it is happening anyway, we should ensure that basic
    consumer protections are attached to it.
        I have released a comprehensive bill to update our outdated
    Federal gambling laws, the Gaming, Accountability, and
    Modernization Enhancement Act, or GAME Act. And my bill allows
    states to put strong consumer protections in place to legalize
    sports betting and online gaming if they chose to. It would be
    increasing transparency and integrity in the industry and could
    bring in much needed revenue.
        So, Mr. Chairman, I think this is an issue where members on
    both sides of the aisle can find common ground. And as I said
    to you before, I hope to see the committee, or actually the
    subcommittee, hold hearings to consider my sports betting or
    GAME Act in the near future.
        And unless someone else wants time on my side, I yield
    back.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you.
        The gentleman yields back.
        And that now concludes the member opening statements. The
    chair would remind members that, pursuant to the committee
    rules, all members' opening statements will be made part of the
    record.
        Additionally, I ask unanimous consent that Energy and
    Commerce members not on the Subcommittee on Digital Commerce
    and Consumer Protection be permitted to participate in today's
    hearing.
        Without objection, so ordered.
        Again, we want to thank our witnesses for being with us
    today and taking time to testify before us. Today's witnesses
    will have the opportunity to give 5-minute opening statements
    followed by a round of questions from the members.
        Our witness panel for today's hearing will include Mr. Marc
    Ratner, the Senior Vice President of Government and Regulatory
    Affairs at Ultimate Fighting Championship; Mr. Greg Sirb, the
    Executive Director of the Pennsylvania state Athletic
    Commission; Dr. Kristen Dams-O'Connor, the Director of the
    Brain Injury Research Center at the Icahn School of Medicine at
    Mount Sinai; and Mr. Randy Couture, six-time UFC and MMA world
    champion, Hall of Famer, and President of Xtreme Couture MMA.
        And, again, thank you very much for being with us.
        And, Mr. Ratner, you have 5 minutes. And just pull the mike
    up and press the button, and thanks for being with us today.

        STATEMENTS OF MARC RATNER, VICE PRESIDENT OF REGULATORY
    AFFAIRS, UFC; GREG SIRB, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PENNSYLVANIA STATE
       ATHLETIC COMMISSION; KRISTEN DAMS-O'CONNOR, M.A., PH.D.,
        DIRECTOR, BRAIN INJURY RESEARCH CENTER, ICAHN SCHOOL OF
     MEDICINE AT MOUNT SINAI; AND RANDY COUTURE, PRESIDENT, XTREME
                                COUTURE

                        STATEMENT OF MARC RATNER

        Mr. Ratner. Thank you and good morning. And excuse me if--I
    have a little cold, so I may have to get some water in between.
    But my name is Marc Ratner. I am the Senior Vice President of
    Government and Regulatory Affairs at the UFC. I am pleased to
    share with you my perspectives about the regulation of mixed
    martial arts and why applying the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform
    Act to MMA does not make sense.
        I would like you to take away three key points from my
    testimony. First, it was only because of the leadership of the
    UFC that MMA exists as you know it today. Second, at the UFC,
    athlete and health safety is paramount. And, third, the
    conflicts and corruption that give rise to the Ali Act are not
    present in MMA.
        After nearly 20 years on the Nevada State Athletic
    Commission regulating boxing, a sport that I truly love, I
    joined the UFC because I had come to admire and appreciate what
    the UFC was building. Make no mistake: It was the UFC and only
    the UFC that undertook the hard work to make MMA what it is
    today. It was not always so.
        A short 5 years before I joined the UFC, it was nearly
    bankrupt. In 2001, MMA was in disregard because it was not a
    real sport. It had no rules and events were held in unregulated
    markets. It was marketed as a blood sport. Senator John McCain,
    a huge boxing fan, famously derided the sport as human
    cockfighting.
        Today, the sport is the fastest growing professional sport
    because the fans and athletes have confidence about its well-
    earned reputation for integrity. MMA was transformed from a
    shunned spectacle to a respected sport because of the UFC's
    leadership. A key to the MMA success is regulation, which
    ensures fairness, consistency and adherence to a common set of
    rules.
        Instead of avoiding regulations, the UFC ran toward
    regulation because we knew regulation was critical to
    instilling the confidence in fans and athletes that the sport
    had integrity. We traveled from state capital to state capital
    urging legislators to regulate the sport. I want to emphasize
    that no one else embarked on this hard work. We didn't ask
    Congress for a grant or a tax break. Our many competitors did
    not spend a dime or lift a finger in a single state capital
    advocating for the regulation of MMA.
        It was the UFC and only the UFC that criss-crossed the
    country and the world to convince lawmakers to legalize and
    regulate the sport. In 2001, only the State of New Jersey
    regulated MMA. Sixteen years later, we are proud to report that
    MMA is regulated by every state with an athletic commission and
    in many countries around the world.
        This subcommittee should understand that state regulation
    is real and effective. The UFC has consistently embraced
    regulation of MMA because these rules help ensure athlete
    safety and fair competition by providing a consistent set of
    rules for the sport, something that was missing in the early
    days of MMA. However, we don't wait for state regulators to
    instruct us about health and safety. We are determined to lead.
        The UFC has the most comprehensive anti-doping program in
    all of sports. It is administered by the United States Anti-
    Doping Agency and requires athletes to be available for random
    drug testing 24/7, 365 days a year. The UFC is the largest
    supporter of a landmark study on fighter brain health being
    conducted by the noted Cleveland Clinic.
        Earlier this year, the UFC opened a new performance
    institute that provides its athletes with the most advanced
    training and wellness network, and unveiled new guidelines to
    improve weight management practices.
        We also treat our fighters fairly. The sport has created
    wealth and opportunity for many for whom no such opportunity
    previously existed. Today, former collegiate and Olympic
    wrestlers, judo specialists, and other mixed martial arts have
    a professional outlet for their athletic endeavors that barely
    existed 15 years ago. We pay the highest purses on the average
    in the industry, plus an opportunity to earn fight night
    bonuses. The UFC is first and the only promoter providing
    prefight accident insurance while they are training. Very, very
    important.
        Dozens upon dozens of mixed martial artists are
    millionaires because of these opportunities. They have
    capitalized on their successes by opening gyms, managing and
    training fighters, obtaining sponsorships, and even making
    movies.
        Women excel in the UFC because we have created one of the
    biggest platforms for female athletes in professional sports.
    Women competing in the UFC do so on the same terms as their
    male counterparts, on the same fight cards, under the same
    rules, and with the same earning opportunities.
        Some have argued that because boxing and MMA are both
    combat sports, both should be governed by the Ali Act. However,
    the two sports are entirely different, and the Ali Act should
    not cover MMA. Of principal concern is the application of Ali
    Act's sanctioning organization rules to MMA. MMA does not rely
    on sanctioning organizations, and Congress should not impose
    the boxing sanctioning organization model onto MMA.
        The UFC's fighters are ranked by sports reporters, and
    those rankings guide our merit-based competitive matchmaking
    decisions. We put on the fights that the fans want to see, and
    it is merit-based on competitive matchmaking decisions. Fighter
    fans and sports reporters keep MMA promoters accountable.
        H.R. 44 would remove from the promoter the decisions
    regarding when and against whom fighters are matched. It might
    force interpromotional fights. Because different promotions
    have less comprehensive health and safety standards than the
    UFC, our fighters would be endangered.
        Mr. Chairman, state regulation is working well. MMA is
    thriving because athletes and fans understand that it is a
    sport with high integrity. There is no need for Federal
    regulation, and I urge this subcommittee to be careful that it
    not hastily enact rules that make little sense for the sport.
    Thank you very much.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Ratner follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Sirb, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

                         STATEMENT OF GREG SIRB

        Mr. Sirb. Chairman Latta and members of the committee,
    thank you very much for being here. My name is Greg Sirb. I
    served as the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania commission
    for the past 27 years. I have also served as the National
    President of the Association of Boxing Commissions and Combat
    Sports. I testified before Congress on multiple occasions
    concerning the Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996 and the
    Ali Act of 2000. I will be always proud to say I was one of the
    architects at getting both of those bills passed, along with my
    good friend Senator John McCain.
        First, some background information. In 2016, we had about a
    thousand MMA fights in the United States, it is increasingly
    being popularized. The top states: California, Texas, Nevada,
    Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida. Currently, we have about 52
    state or tribal commissions that regulate these sports.
    Regulations can vary between state and state, particularly when
    we talk about the amateur MMA athlete.
        One of the driving forces when we first were here in 1996
    when we passed the Pro Boxing Safety Act, we had five sections
    we wanted to make sure we dealt with. I am going to go over
    those and see how they deal with MMA.
        One, under the current Federal law, no boxing can occur in
    a state that does not have a commission. Cannot occur. If the
    state does not have a commission, they can ask a neighboring
    state to come in or they can ask the ABC to supervise. That is
    not the case in MMA. It is not against Federal law to have an
    unregulated pro MMA fight.
        Two, safety procedures. Each boxer must have a physical
    exam before the fight, an ambulance must be present, a
    physician must be present. And health insurance must be
    provided to that boxer in case he is injured. That is in the
    Federal law. Although not mandated by the Federal law, many of
    the state and tribal commissions do this for MMA currently.
        Three we had as registration. The Federal Boxing Act
    requires all pro boxers to apply for a Federal ID card with
    their home state. This ID card has a photo of the fighter, the
    name of the fighter, the date of birth, Social Security number,
    and a unique six-digit number that tracks that fighter all over
    the world.
        In the MMA, the ABC has developed a national database for
    MMA fighters. This national registry is accessible to all state
    and Tribal commissions, and again, although not mandated by the
    Federal law, the Federal ID system is in effect for the MMA
    world.
        Four, suspensions. The current Federal law mandates that if
    you are a boxer and you have suffered a knockout or an injury
    and you are a placed on suspension, you cannot fight in any
    other state. That is Federal law. You cannot fight for a KO, a
    series of knockouts, a failed drug test, a failed alias that
    you are trying to falsify a documentation, or unsportsmanlike
    conduct. And although not mandated by Federal law, with the
    help of the ABC, the vast majority of the states with MMA
    uphold MMA suspensions and require that they uphold the
    suspensions in other states.
        Five, reporting. The Federal law requires you to report
    your boxing results and your suspensions within 48 hours after
    the event. The ABC has developed two national registries. We
    have one for boxing, and we have one for MMA. Again, although
    not mandated, all state and Tribal commissions have the results
    in by 48 hours with their suspensions.
        As you can see with the ABC and with the help of the many
    state and Tribal commissions we have, we have already
    implemented much of the Federal law for the MMA fighters. But
    what haven't we done? Generally, the MMA fighter, under Federal
    law, is not covered when he is dealing with his promoter or
    manager. He is not covered in that section, of course, of
    contract. He is not covered in that section of sanctioning
    bodies and rankings organization.
        As a boxer, I can go after that event. I am entitled to my
    contract. I am entitled to see and ask for disclosure of that
    promoter of the financial dealings with that promoter, how much
    did he make from the event, where that money is going, and what
    money is being assessed against me as a fighter. I have that
    authority as a boxer.
        Boxers are also entitled to the so-called firewall between
    a manager and a fighter; i.e., a manager cannot act as your
    promoter, and a promoter cannot act as your manager and take
    money from both. There is no double dipping. Boxers have that
    ability.
        Boxers are also protected under the Federal act from the
    so-called coercive contract. A coercive contract generally
    means under the Pro Boxing Safety Act, that I can't be forced
    to sign a contract or I cannot be forced to extend an existing
    contract if I want a particular fight. I can't be forced to do
    that. Coerciveness.
        The Federal law also states that the promoter of the event
    is obligated, under perjury, to sign forms and disclose to the
    state or Tribal commission where the event is to be held, all
    the financial dealings that he has with the fighter, all the
    money that he is bringing in, and all the money that he may be
    paying out. So a promoter can't----
        Mr. Latta. You need to wrap up. You need to wrap up.
        Mr. Sirb. Of those five things, let's be clear about the
    financial disclosure. Financial disclosure is a good thing.
        And I will leave you with this. Twenty-seven years I have
    been here. I am one of the longest serving state regulators in
    the country. I served many times with a fighter and a manager,
    sit down with them and their promoter, and we have to mediate
    his contract. One famous fighter told me just like this, he
    said: ``Sirb, if I don't know how big the financial pie is, how
    do I know what type of piece of the pie I should ask for?'' I
    will leave with you that.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Sirb follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        And, Dr. Dams-O'Connor, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Thank you.

            STATEMENT OF KRISTEN DAMS-O'CONNOR, M.A., PH.D.

        Ms. Dams-O'Connor. Thank you. I am Dr. Kristen Dams-
    O'Connor. I am an Associate Professor of Rehabilitation
    Medicine and Neurology at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount
    Sinai, where I am also the Director of the Brain Injury
    Research Center. The testimony I will provide today reflects my
    own professional opinion.
        My research focuses on understanding and improving long-
    term outcomes associated with traumatic brain injury or TBI.
    TBI is defined as a traumatically induced physiological
    disruption of brain function that results in a period of
    unconsciousness or any alteration in mental state or
    neurological status.
        Not all traumatic brain injuries involve a loss of
    consciousness, and not all TBIs result from a direct blow to
    the head. A mild TBI is frequently referred to as a concussion.
    Most of my research pertains to individuals who have sustained
    a TBI that involves a loss of consciousness and requires
    hospital care. TBI affects more than 2.7 million people each
    year and causes more than 150 deaths each day in the United
    States.
        TBI is one of the strongest environmental risk factors for
    dementia. The potential consequences of TBI are not limited to
    dementia. Among people who receive in-patient rehabilitation
    for traumatic brain injury, about half within 5 years of injury
    have died or declined from a previous level of functioning.
    People who have sustained a TBI tend to have more medical
    comorbidities and a shortened lifespan of up to 9 years.
        These findings have led to the realization that TBI may be
    more appropriately conceptualized as a disease process as
    opposed to an isolated event. Milder TBI or concussion can
    cause symptoms like headaches, dizziness, cognitive or
    emotional changes, but these usually resolve within weeks.
        Some people who sustain a concussion experience persistent
    symptoms, especially those who sustain multiple concussions.
    Repeated exposure to sub-concussive head trauma, even in the
    absence of a clinical concussion, may be associated with long-
    term consequences. Chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE, is
    thought to be triggered by repeated exposure to sub-concussive
    head trauma and is diagnosed post-mortem as an abnormal
    accumulation of a protein called tau in the brain.
        Most of the recent research on CTE has been conducted in
    football players. Most of the research on sports-related TBI in
    general has been conducted on football players, male football
    players in particular. So it is not well-known how or whether
    these findings generalize to other contact sports, such as MMA,
    or to women.
        An important thing that distinguishes MMA from football is
    that many football players never sustain a true concussion
    whereas inflicting a TBI with loss of consciousness is
    essentially the goal of MMA. MMA also involves repeated
    exposure to sub-concussive head trauma throughout practice and
    competition, which essentially means that MMA fighters are at
    risk for both the long-term sequelae associated with traumatic
    brain injuries and also the long-term risks associated with
    sub-concussive head trauma exposure.
        It is no longer defensible to claim that traumatic brain
    injury is not associated with long-term health consequences. We
    know that earlier life exposure and greater cumulative exposure
    to head trauma is associated with worse outcomes. There is no
    amount of exposure to traumatic brain injury that can be
    considered safe, and there is no age at which a traumatic brain
    injury is considered safe.
        There is no biological marker to definitively determine
    when it is safe to return to sport after a traumatic brain
    injury. So the most conservative approach might be to ban
    participation in contact sports all together, but we know that
    there are tremendous benefits to kids and young adults who
    participate in sports, especially in this digital age. It is
    concerning to hear that sports participation among kids is
    declining. The benefits of sports participation cannot be
    replicated by technology.
        But this truth has to be considered alongside the knowledge
    that many traumatic brain injuries sustained in sport are
    preventable. So the most prudent way forward might be to make
    every effort to make contact sport participation safer. In MMA
    in particular exposure to head trauma can be substantially
    reduced by delaying the age of exposure to high-contact fights,
    limiting exposure to head contact, reducing the duration or
    number of competitions an athlete can participate in, or even
    penalizing athletes who deliberately inflict a blow to the head
    to an opponent.
        Our understanding of the long-term effects of TBI has
    advanced rapidly in recent years, and I really think that we
    owe it to the people and their families who are living with the
    sequelae of brain injury to only accelerate that pace of
    research.
        In science, we are interested in understanding the factors
    that may mitigate negative outcomes after a brain injury, and
    we hope that one day that science would allow us to predict
    individual level risk, but we are not there yet. As that
    knowledge accumulates, the short-term responsibility really
    lies in policy, the goal being to improve and enforce
    regulations that make sports safer for all athletes.
        These regulations must protect both the athletes that go on
    to experience these devastating outcomes as well as those who
    are lucky and don't have these outcomes because, right now, we
    have no way of determining who those lucky ones will be. When
    sports participation involves exposure to traumatic brain
    injury----
        Mr. Latta. Pardon me, Doctor. If you can just wrap up.
    Thank you. You are over. Thank you.
        Ms. Dams-O'Connor [continuing]. Every effort must be made
    to reduce the risk.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Dams-O'Connor follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Couture, you are recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you
    very much.

                       STATEMENT OF RANDY COUTURE

        Mr. Couture. Thank you, Chairman Latta and Ranking Member
    Schakowsky, thank you. I am very pleased to be back for the
    legislative hearing for the Ali Act to be expanded to mixed
    martial arts. I want to address some of the major issues in the
    sport of MMA that I have come to love so much and,
    unfortunately, some of the business behind the scenes that I
    have come to hate.
        I know the majority of the memorandum has done a pretty
    good job of providing a cursory description of some of the
    history of modern MMA. However, there is just a bit I would
    like to add. It involves world-class athletes, Olympic athletes
    involved in disciplines of martial arts, including, wrestling,
    judo, jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai, karate, and boxing.
        The UFC is the operating trade name of the Zuffa, LLC. Over
    90 percent of the revenue generated in the sport of MMA is
    captured by Zuffa. Zuffa is still the only promoter in MMA that
    is regularly broadcasting on pay-per-view, where a substantial
    amount of the event's income is obtained. The UFC also promotes
    approximately 24 additional events through FOX family of
    networks on its own streaming service, the UFC FIGHT PASS. And
    the UFC has over 520 fighters on its roster right now under
    contract.
        Once signed to a Zuffa promotional agreement, Zuffa retains
    sweeping ancillary rights to utilize the athlete's likeness in
    perpetuity for all commercial purposes. The roster churns. As
    fighters are released, injured, or retire, new fighters are
    signed worldwide. There are thousands of professional mixed
    martial artists.
        Coercive contractual practices crippling the natural growth
    of MMA include but are not limited to: the use of exclusive
    nonpublic contracts; the assignment of ancillary rights from
    the athlete to the promoter far beyond the term of the
    promotional agreement; champions clauses that prevent champions
    from ever becoming freely marketable; secret discretionary
    payments that are utilized to keep athletes subservient and
    silent.
        For 2015, Zuffa reported an annual revenue in excess of
    $600 million, with over 63 percent of that revenue from
    regulated events, pay-per-view, and gate. Zuffa has also
    entered into lucrative TV licensing deals, including a 7-year,
    $832 million with FOX Networks and a 5-year, $232 million deal
    for broadcast rights in Brazil. Zuffa also has ownership stakes
    in a variety of other business, including apparel, equipment,
    energy drinks and gyms, the UFC magazine, the UFC Fan Expo, UFC
    FIGHT PASS, which is the streaming service, and UFC.com, which
    is the website and online store.
        Zuffa has a partnership and arrangements with numerous
    media companies. Zuffa controls the likeness rights of its
    athletes for merchandizing purposes and has the only MMA video
    game franchise in partnership with EA Sports. I know this
    because I was previously in EA's video game before it became a
    UFC property.
        By now, as most will know, Zuffa sold last year to WME-IMG
    for a reported $4 billion in the single largest sports property
    in the history of sports. Although the purchase price is
    astounding, given the requisite percentage revenue share with
    the athletes, I can say, based upon my recent experience, that
    things seem to have gotten worse for fighters, not better, in
    fact, may have worsened. In particular, what I understand, the
    debt load associated with this purchase is probably three times
    the previous debt load. To that point, Goldman Sachs, the lead
    banker in the sale, has been twice warned by the Federal
    regulators that over-optimism in the projections of future
    income were far too speculative. Translation to fighters: None
    of that enormous purchase price will translate to your pocket,
    as the company now carries far more debt load and managers
    scramble to create new revenue.
        Competitive architecture in the sport of MMA. In sport,
    competition is a result of competition and determines merit.
    Unlike boxing, however, there is no competitive architecture.
    For an MMA amateur, programs are largely nonexistent and
    unorganized.
        MMA is also not an Olympic sport. Thus, athletes entering
    into MMA do not have the built-in pedigree that boxers
    typically enjoy due to longstanding amateur programs and
    Olympic competition which serves to filter test talent before
    they turn professional. In MMA, outside of the NCAA Division I
    wrestling and Olympic wrestlers, athletes turn professional in
    MMA and have not been systematically ranked at any level. In
    contrast, amateur boxers and wrestlers establish credentials
    and merit in athletics through competition, ascending rankings.
        Merit is essential to all combative sports. Athletes,
    through competition, ascend rankings and establish notoriety
    with the viewing public. In combat sports, value to athletes
    competing is obtained by sending those rankings through
    competition and later winning titles. Once notoriety has been
    obtained, the professional boxer or kickboxer may then enter
    into the marketplace for competing promotions where they can
    bid for his services or the athlete may choose to promote
    himself and hire a third party on a contract basis. These
    athletes retain rank and title that they have already obtained,
    which are independent of the promotion.
        In contrast, MMA athletes do not have an organized and
    respected amateur system to establish merit. Unlike boxing and
    kickboxing, MMA promoters do not have and have not been
    required by the athletic commissions to utilize independent or
    objective ranking.
        Mr. Latta. Pardon me, Mr. Couture, if you could wrap up
    your statement. Thank you.
        Mr. Couture. Lots more to say. But I am here representing
    the MMA FA members of over 600 strong, so hardly an
    insignificant amount of fighters that want to see this changed.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Couture follows:]

       [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Latta. Well, thank you very much for your statements.
    And at this time, we will move to the question and answers from
    our members.
        And I will begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes.
        And, Mr. Sirb, if I could start with you. As an official of
    the Pennsylvania state Athletic Commission, can you explain the
    authority the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has to implement
    rules like those for contractual provisions in H.R. 44?
        Mr. Sirb. Currently in Pennsylvania----
        Mr. Latta. Is your mike on?
        Mr. Sirb. Currently, in Pennsylvania, we treat the boxer
    exactly the same as the MMA fighter. Every aspect of the Ali
    Act is implemented for the MMA fighter. We oversee the
    contract. It must be on our form. It can't exceed 3 years. And
    any situations that come up, they come to the commission first
    by state law for an arbitration process. If they don't like
    what we arbitrated, then it goes to Commonwealth court.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Ratner, you have had a great deal of experience with
    both boxing and the MMA, what are the differences in those
    sports and how they are regulated, and why do those differences
    exist?
        Mr. Ratner. From the commission side, as Mr. Sirb just
    said, it is handled exactly the same way. I can speak for the
    State of Nevada completely. Boxers and MMA fighters are treated
    exactly the same. Surprisingly, the only thing that is
    different is the rules of the sports. But everything is the
    same. Whether contracts, they can be arbitrated by the
    commission.
        But I do want to say about the Ali Act--and I was there in
    1996 with Mr. Sirb before Senator McCain and Senator Richard
    Bryan, and to the best of my knowledge, and maybe I am wrong,
    but there has not been one case that has gone to the United
    States Attorney General in any state with the Ali Act. For some
    reason, it has never been there. And I don't think it works in
    boxing, and it certainly will not work in the sport of MMA.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Couture, you have been a passionate advocate for
    changes and how the MMA is regulated. If these changes would
    have been in effect when you were fighting, how do you think it
    would have impacted your successful career?
        Mr. Couture. I think, with the transparency that the Ali
    Act provides boxers, I would have known what my fair market
    value was in the sport, and I would have been free to go and
    pursue--for me, a perfect example was the Fedor Emelianenko
    fight in 2006: Fedor was fighting for a different organization
    under a contract with them; I was under contract with the UFC.
    I wasn't allowed to go and pursue that fight. Most people
    thought he was the best fighter in the world and I was number
    two. The only way to really settle that, and that is in the
    cage. And I was not allowed to do that because of my exclusive
    contract with the UFC. I couldn't pursue that outside of them,
    and they couldn't make a deal with Fedor and do a copromotion
    with his organization.
        So I think this is one of the things that the act clears
    up, allows for free market, and allows me to know my fair value
    in the marketplace.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Sirb, do you believe that the way the MMA fights are
    regulated in the U.S. creates as safe an environment as
    possible for the competitors, understanding the sport of course
    is very much a contact sport?
        Mr. Sirb. I do. Again, we are only talking about the
    professional fighters. The MMA, unlike boxing, has a whole slew
    of amateur MMA fighters, 14, 13, 12 years old, 14, teenagers.
    That is very unregulated in some states. That is a big issue.
        This Ali Act only covers, though, the pro fighters. But for
    the pro MMA fighters for health and safety, yes, they are
    protected fairly well under current regulations.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much. Just to let you know, with
    our lights up there and the bells, they just called votes, and
    we have about 13 minutes left. Would the gentlelady like to go
    ahead and ask her questions, and we will take a brief recess
    and come right back.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Actually, because I can come back, I am
    going to yield to Ben Ray Lujan to ask questions.
        Mr. Latta. The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Lujan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you, Ms. Schakowsky.
        Mr. Couture, first off, I want to thank Mr. Markwayne
    Mullin for leading this effort, and Mr. Kennedy as well. This
    is important. As we are having a conversation about folks that
    want to put themselves through the training and through the
    rigors of being in that ring, that ultimately led to a $4
    billion industry; that is the premise of I think why we are
    here. And what can be done in a way to make sure that we can
    understand how to put what those fighters are going through
    every day and front and center, if you will, in the middle of
    what is happening across the country.
        So, looking at this, as we talk about economic
    independence, does the Ali Act make it harder for the same
    person or organization to serve both as a boxer's manager and
    their promoter, and why do MMA fighters need the same
    protections?
        Mr. Couture. I believe that MMA fighters need the same
    protection. I think the biggest issue is that combative sport
    should be based on merit. And to have a promoter also create
    his own title and his own rankings and then hold the athlete's
    feet to the fire and force him to sign a contract if he wants
    to be ranked and he wants to fight for those titles and gain
    that notoriety, it is too much power. It needs to be separated.
        Somebody else independent of wanting to promote and make
    money off that fighter should be setting those rankings and
    creating those titles. That is my opinion.
        Health and well-being of the fighters, I am perfectly
    comfortable with how the athletic commissions and ABC regulate
    us. The CT scans, the blood work, all the other things that I
    do to make sure--I know the risks; I still love the sport.
        The real issue is on the business side of things. I am not
    told or allowed to know what I am worth. And I get to negotiate
    for my fair share of any event that I compete in. A recent
    example, Conor McGregor gets a boxing license, and he goes out
    and makes $80 million or $90 million. That is ten times he has
    ever made in a mixed martial arts fight--ten times what he ever
    made in a mixed martial arts fight. And he is one of the
    highest mixed martial arts fighters, what he is paid. And it
    goes down drastically from there.
        The mid-tier and lower tier fighters are struggling; they
    can't fight enough times in a year to make a decent living.
    Now, they are forced to fight four or five or six times in a
    year. It takes 10 weeks to train for one fight. That is 40
    weeks that he is in hardcore training, putting his body at
    risk, in order to continue to make a living in the sport that
    he loves.
        Mr. Lujan. I appreciate that. I have seen some of those
    boxers train at Jackson's Gym in Albuquerque, New Mexico, I
    certainly appreciate the work that goes into that. I sweat just
    watching them, sir, so there is nothing that I could do to ever
    be prepared fully, but I appreciate that.
        So my question, Mr. Ratner, goes I guess to this point. Is
    disclosure and voluntary guidelines enough to protect fighters'
    interest, or do fighters need a fully independent sanctioning
    authority that has the ability to enforce rules as we look at
    these rankings?
        Mr. Ratner. First of all, in your first statement, I want
    everybody to know that we are not a manager; we are a promoter.
    When a fighter comes to fight for us, they bring attorneys,
    they bring managers, they bring agencies.
        Mr. Lujan. Mr. Ratner, if I may, because my time is going
    to run out here, specifically to disclosure and voluntary
    guidelines, is that enough to protect the fighters' interests,
    or do fighters need a fully independent sanctioning authority
    that has the ability to enforce the rules as we talk about the
    importance of the ranking and things of that nature?
        Mr. Ratner. When they fight for us, the gate is public
    knowledge; they know exactly how much was paid by the people
    who watched the fights. The ones who fight on pay-per-view are
    really their partners. They have the right to audit the pay-
    per-view numbers. So they are really part of our whole
    business. No fighter fights for us for less than $10,000 for
    them to show up. If they win, they get another $10,000.
        Mr. Couture brought up the Mayweather fight with Conor
    McGregor. On that fight card, there were five boxers who were
    paid under $7,500. So that is a boxing--whether it is right or
    wrong. I am saying that nobody gets paid less than $10,000, and
    we do the right thing by the fighters.
        Mr. Lujan. Thank you.
        Mr. Chairman, as my time expires, again, just--it just sold
    for $4 billion. We talk about the earnings of these fighters
    and even the autonomy for them to go and find independent
    sponsors as well when they are tied to contracts. It just
    doesn't allow them to maximize their earnings. And I think, as
    you look at what they are required to fight for all year long
    versus the few fights then that ultimately have that payday,
    that there should be some flexibility there, and I am hoping
    that I can better understand this as well so we can maximize
    those earnings for these folks that do incredible work. Thank
    you very much, sir.
        Mr. Latta. The gentleman's time has expired.
        And at this time, we will take a brief 15-minute recess,
    and we will go vote and come right back. So we appreciate your
    testimony so far, and like I said, we will be back in 15
    minutes.
        [Recess.]
        Mr. Latta. I call the subcommittee to order from our brief
    recess, and at this time, I will recognize the gentleman from
    Oklahoma for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the
    witnesses for being here.
        Mr. Ratner, you made a statement that you said boxers and
    MMA fighters are treated the same.
        Mr. Ratner. By commissions, yes.
        Mr. Mullin. So is the ranking system the same?
        Mr. Ratner. First of all, I am a regulator.
        Mr. Mullin. I know, but if you are saying they are treated
    the same, that is an awful broad statement. Is the ranking
    system the same?
        Mr. Ratner. Well, I am saying from a regulatory point of
    view, from a commission point of view----
        Mr. Mullin. Well, you are talking about the safety of the
    fighter. We are talking about the ranking, and the Ali Act
    doesn't deal with the safety of it. It deals with the financial
    disclosures of it.
        So, when you make that broad statement, let's be narrow,
    because this is a hearing on the legislation, on H.R. 44. That
    is what this is about. We are not talking about the safety,
    which is important, we are talking about what the Ali Act does
    and doesn't.
        So, when you say that a boxer and an MMA fighter is treated
    the same, is the ranking system the same? Yes or no.
        Mr. Ratner. The ranking systems in boxing are completely
    different.
        Mr. Mullin. So what criteria does the MMA use for the
    ranking system? The UFC specifically.
        Mr. Ratner. The UFC, there is a group of sports writers, I
    am not sure how many, and they are the ones.
        Mr. Mullin. Do they serve at the will of the UFC?
        Mr. Ratner. No, they are independent.
        Mr. Mullin. They serve at will. The UFC reserves the right
    to remove anybody off that commission that they choose.
        Mr. Ratner. I cannot answer that.
        Mr. Mullin. It is true. The answer to that is true.
        Mr. Ratner. I do not know that, but there is a group of
    them, it is 18 or 20, something like that, and they rank the
    fighters----
        Mr. Mullin. What criteria do they use to rank the fighters?
        Mr. Ratner. As I said, I am in the regulatory part of it. I
    am not in that part of it, and I cannot answer that.
        Mr. Mullin. But you did refer to it, in your opening
    statement referred to the ranking system. So, if you referred
    to it in your opening statement, then let's be clear on a
    couple things.
        How do they choose who is going to fight for a title?
        Mr. Ratner. How does the UFC?
        Mr. Mullin. Yes.
        Mr. Ratner. On a competitive basis. We make the fight that
    fans want to see.
        Mr. Mullin. I have no objections to that. I want that, but
    when you are talking about a world title, as a professional
    fighter, I want to know that I am the best, if I am fighting,
    and that is the whole point. As Randy said, he wants to fight
    the best.
        So how do you know you get to fight the best? It has
    nothing to do with matchmaking. The Mayweather/McGregor fight
    was not for a title. The fans wanted to see it, Correct?
        Mr. Ratner. Correct.
        Mr. Mullin. But when you have a title out there that the
    UFC shows as a world title, do you consider that the world
    title?
        Mr. Ratner. Last Saturday night, we had three world titles.
        Mr. Mullin. World titles. So, when Lawrence Epstein came
    and talked to be me and he said that they don't look at the
    title as being a title but as an award bestowed upon the best
    fighter that night, would you agree with that statement?
        Mr. Ratner. I do. Just going back to Saturday night----
        Mr. Mullin. So then it is not really a world title.
        Mr. Ratner. It is a world title as far as we are concerned.
        Mr. Mullin. Not if you are considering it an award bestowed
    upon the best fighter. It can't be. When you have the last
    three fights, the 185 pound, as I said in my opening statement,
    when Luke fought Bisping, Bisping was ranked number four. Did
    number three, number two, and the number one contender, did
    they refuse the fight like in the boxing world they do?
        Mr. Ratner. Well, in the boxing world, what you have there
    is step-aside, and there are all kinds of games played.
        Mr. Mullin. OK. But did they? Did the number three, two,
    and the number one contender have an opportunity to fight, or
    did they go straight to Bisping?
        Mr. Ratner. I am going to make it clear again: I am not
    involved in that part of it.
        Mr. Mullin. But you said in the opening statement that the
    fighters in the MMA and boxers are treated the same.
        Mr. Ratner. Absolutely.
        Mr. Mullin. They are not when you are talking about the
    ranking system.
        Mr. Ratner. I am talking about state commissions.
        Mr. Mullin. State commissions when you are talking about
    the safety and regulating the safety but not the true ranking
    system.
        If the UFC is considered a professional sport, then it
    should be on a merit-based ranking system, when the fans know
    that the number one contender actually has a shot at the title,
    because we haven't seen that at 185. How did Dan Henderson--
    which I like Dan; this is no knocking him. But he wasn't even
    in the top 10, and when was the last time he was in the top 10?
    He got to fight Bisping for the title shot. Did nine, eight,
    seven, six, five, four, three, two, and one all refuse?
        Mr. Ratner. When Dan Henderson fought Michael Bisping, it
    was a natural rematch from a fight maybe four or----
        Mr. Mullin. But then it wasn't a title shot, but yet it was
    for a title shot. Then that means the world championship belt
    that the UFC has isn't really a world championship belt. It is
    really what Lawrence Epstein personally told me. It is simply
    an award that they bestow on the best fighter that night. That
    is insulting to every professional athlete.
        How did GSP get a fight for the title when he hasn't had a
    fight in 4 years, much less at 185 pounds? He never fought for
    the belt.
        Mr. Ratner. St-Pierre hadn't fought in 4 years; you are
    absolutely correct.
        Mr. Mullin. So how did he get a title shot?
        Mr. Ratner. He was a former champion, former pound-for-
    pound the best fighter in the world, according to our----
        Mr. Mullin. So he still didn't fight for a title. He fought
    for an award bestowed upon the best fighter that night.
        When you go back and you say--and I am wrapping up,
    Chairman--when you go back and you say that boxers are treated
    like MMA fighters, clarify that statement that you are talking
    about the health of the fighter but not the professional
    ranking system and not about the financial disclosures, because
    there are distinct differences. The Ali Act is the backstop to
    boxers. There is no backstop for MMA fighters. It is take it or
    leave it, and that is what I say the UFC has become the Don
    King of MMA.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Latta. The gentleman's time has expired.
        And the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Illinois,
    the ranking member of the subcommittee.
        Ms. Schakowsky. I am going to yield to Congressman Kennedy,
    a cosponsor of this bill.
        Mr. Kennedy. Thank you. I appreciate that, ranking member.
        I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for calling this
    hearing.
        The witnesses, thank you for being here.
        Mr. Mullin, if you wanted to finish that round of
    questioning off, I am happen to yield to you a minute, as long
    as, Jan, you are OK with that.
        Ms. Schakowsky. I am fine.
        Mr. Mullin. Go ahead, Joe, and I will jump in when you are
    done.
        Mr. Kennedy. I appreciate the witnesses here today, as I
    said.
        A number of topics that I think have come to light over the
    course of this hearing, which I think we do need to dive it
    down a bit more.
        Obviously, I share some of the concerns that you heard from
    Ms. Schakowsky around safety and security of our fighters. I
    understand, Mr. Couture, your perspective that there is an
    assumption of risk here, that you have an idea of what you are
    getting into, and I appreciate that.
        That being said, I think, Doctor, some of the research that
    you were able to articulate, this is an issue we are seeing
    across multiple professional sports at this point where there
    are long-term safety effects that we also want to make sure
    that people are going in with eyes wide hope. I appreciate that
    as well.
        I also wanted to call attention to an op-ed I believe in
    today's Washington Examiner by an additional fighter, Mr.
    Fitch, who echoed some of the points made by Mr. Couture and by
    Mr. Mullin. He states in part over his career that, at one
    point, following a defeat to Mr. St-Pierre, that he was
    presented with a merchandising agreement, quoting from a letter
    that is now in the record: ``So I was presented with a
    merchandizing agreement by the promotion which required me to
    grant them in perpetuity and for no compensation the right to
    my image for use in a video game.''
        He cites later that he was requested at one point to sign
    over all rights, including after death.
        Mr. Couture, is Mr. Fitch's experience with that similar to
    circumstances that you have been going through, and is that
    emblematic of some of the interactions with other fighters as
    well?
        Mr. Couture. Yes, sir. It is. I have fought with the
    organization from the day they bought the company. When Zuffa
    bought the UFC from SEG, the old company that owned the
    property, I was the heavyweight champion at the time. I was due
    to sign a new contract, and my management basically fought for
    those ancillary rights, and it is because of that fight over
    those ancillary rights, my name and likeness and all these
    other categories that have nothing to do with the actual fight,
    I am persona non grata with the company to this day.
        Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Mullin.
        Mr. Mullin. Thank you, Joe.
        Mr. Ratner, a followup question: Did the UFC strip Conor
    McGregor of his featherweight title and drop him from the
    rankings, despite he had never lost the title in competition?
        Mr. Ratner. He wasn't active in I believe the 145. He went
    up to 155, and, yes, they took the title away.
        Mr. Mullin. And they stripped him out of the rankings of
    the top 10, despite he had never lost at 145?
        Mr. Ratner. I believe so.
        Mr. Mullin. Would that happen in boxing?
        Mr. Ratner. I think it has happened in boxing.
        Mr. Mullin. When they are inactive for how long?
        Mr. Ratner. That I cannot say, but I know----
        Mr. Mullin. Isn't it based on them passing fights, refusing
    to fight for the title, and isn't it based on criteria before
    they can just simply drop the title?
        Mr. Ratner. In boxing, there must be maybe 10 to 12 world
    sanctioning bodies, and they all have their own criteria, they
    all have different rankings.
        Mr. Mullin. But I am talking underneath the Ali Act,
    because you were a proponent for the Ali Act when it was coming
    out in boxing, you were a strong proponent for it because you
    saw the need for the boxers, for the fighters, and a lot of it
    was the manipulation that was going on in boxing. Is that
    correct?
        Mr. Ratner. Yes, 20 years ago, I----
        Mr. Mullin. And you don't see any similarities right now on
    the manipulation the way they do it?
        Mr. Ratner. No. I don't.
        Mr. Mullin. What about Nate Diaz who was dropped from the
    UFC because he was involved in contract negotiations and he was
    trying to negotiate with the UFC and they dropped him? Is that
    not true?
        Mr. Ratner. I don't pay attention to the rankings, but----
        Mr. Mullin. Sir, you are involved in it all the time. Was
    he not dropped from the UFC?
        Mr. Ratner. He is still under contract to us and----
        Mr. Mullin. I am talking about at the time.
        Mr. Ratner. I am sure you will see him fight again.
        Mr. Mullin. I know that, but the answer to that is yes, and
    we go back to the same thing. When you were saying that boxers
    are treated the same way, or MMA fighters are treated the same
    way as boxers, what I am trying to draw here is they are not
    even close. You make a broad statement like that; you are
    misleading Congress.
        Mr. Ratner. Not at all.
        Mr. Mullin. And you are misleading the American people.
    When you make those statements, clarify specifically on what it
    is you are talking about because, once again, you are talking
    about the health of the fighter. The Ali Act deals with the
    financial compensation of the fighter. It also deals with the
    merit-based ranking system.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        The gentleman from Massachusetts' time has expired.
        And the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Indiana for
    5 minutes.
        Mr. Bucshon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I was a surgeon before I came to Congress, so actually this
    situation really does interest me quite a bit because of the
    medical aspects of what we are talking about here today. And I
    think, as you mentioned, adults understand what the risks are,
    and they participate based on the known risk.
        It seems to me, though, one of the things when you are
    balancing risk/benefits, is you have to also be able to assess
    what your financial goals might be. Would you agree with that?
    If you are going to fight and assess the risk as a professional
    fighter, one of the considerations is on how many times you
    fight and for how long you fight is what your financial future
    might hold for you. Would you agree or disagree with that?
        Mr. Couture. I would absolutely agree with that. Mr. Sirb
    mentioned if I know how big the pie is for a specific event
    that I am training for and going to compete in, then I have a
    fair opportunity, if I am unrestricted, to negotiate for my
    fair share of that pie, and that is less pies down the road
    that I have to get involved in which put my health and well-
    being at the----
        Mr. Bucshon. Right. If you are essentially, as you
    mentioned, you have to fight six times a year to meet some
    financial goals, and you may or may not meet those----
        Mr. Couture. To use Mr. Ratner's----
        Mr. Bucshon. It is more exposure potentially to the health
    risk.
        Mr. Couture. To use Mr. Ratner's assumption that at least
    every fighter minimally gets $10,000 to show up and $10,000 if
    he wins, even at that rate, that is $20,000, take out my
    training expenses and all the other expenses I have as an
    athlete, I am going to at least have to fight four, five, six
    times a year to make a reasonable living by today's standards.
        Mr. Bucshon. Do you get charged for the other expenses? For
    example, an entertainer that goes on tour, right, their
    contracts usually have whatever it takes to set up the stage
    and to take down the stage and have the people run the lights
    and all that. I am just curious, are fighters--is there a fee--
    --
        Mr. Couture. Fighters' expenses are dealing with his
    preparation, his trainers, his gym, food, supplementation,
    insurance of any kind.
        Mr. Bucshon. Travel to and from the fight?
        Mr. Couture. Travel is usually taken care of.
        Mr. Bucshon. That is usually covered. OK. I am just trying
    to clarify the financial structure here.
        Mr. Couture. As far as venues and setup and promotions for
    displaying the actual competition, that is up to the promoter.
        Mr. Bucshon. Is there a way a fighter can understand what
    the financial results are of an event? Is there transparency
    there for a fighter?
        Mr. Couture. There is no transparency in place now in mixed
    martial arts. They don't have to disclose any of that
    information, and you can find it on public record if you have
    the wherewithal to go look it up.
        Mr. Bucshon. OK.
        Mr. Ratner, how do you determine how much to pay fighters?
        Mr. Ratner. As I stated, they have to sign a contract to
    fight for us. Most of those contracts are 2 to 3 years. So when
    they come in----
        Mr. Bucshon. In the contract, does it talk about financial
    compensation or just----
        Mr. Ratner. Yes. So, for a brand new fighter, maybe the
    first three fights of his career, they are paid $10,000. You
    win those three fights; then they are paid another amount. It
    goes in steps.
        Mr. Bucshon. At any point in those contracts, is there
    revenue sharing at all, or is it just a flat fee?
        Mr. Ratner. For a beginning fighter, no. They are signing--
    --
        Mr. Bucshon. Which is consistent with maybe the
    entertainment industry and other things. I totally understand
    that. Right.
        Mr. Ratner. You asked about some of the other costs. The
    UFC picks up all those costs. When we have a fight, we bring
    them in on Tuesday, not on Friday or Saturday. We weigh them to
    start with.
        And I just want to say again that I am for the fighters. I
    am for the health and safety part. That is my most important
    part.
        Mr. Bucshon. I think when you assess risk/benefit of
    participating in a sport, the financial aspects of it are an
    important part that you have to assess, right? And professional
    athletes will tell you that, and they know the risks, but if
    you are going to make $10 million for a fight, well----
        Mr. Ratner. But nobody forces----
        Mr. Bucshon. Mr. Sirb, I have got a few minutes here. You
    mentioned in your written testimony, there had been no legal
    cases brought to trial under the original Ali Act. Why is that?
        Mr. Sirb. Correct. The Ali Act has been very hard to
    enforce. We at the national association have written to
    numerous state attorneys general who have the authority to
    enforce the act. We have never got any cooperation from any of
    them.
        Mr. Bucshon. OK. Thank you. My time has expired.
        Mr. Latta. The gentleman's time has expired.
        The chair again recognizes the gentlelady from Illinois,
    the ranking member of the subcommittee.
        Ms. Schakowsky. I am going to yield my time to Mr. Pallone.
        Mr. Latta. The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I wanted to ask Mr. Ratner some questions about sports
    betting and as it relates to MMA, to some extent, in Nevada.
        Legal sports betting is supported by a majority of
    Americans, but outdated Federal law still prevents states that
    want to legalize it from doing so.
        My bill, which I mentioned, the GAME Act, would modernize
    Federal law and allow states to legalize sports betting as long
    as strong safeguards that protect consumers and the integrity
    of the game are in place.
        UFC is headquartered in Las Vegas, the center of legalized
    sports betting in the U.S. So I just wanted to ask you a couple
    questions, Mr. Ratner.
        UFC operates all over the world. Is betting on UFC fights
    legal in other countries, to your knowledge?
        Mr. Ratner. I know offshore there is betting everywhere. In
    Nevada, all our fights are put on what they call the board. You
    can bet on from the first fight through the last.
        And I just want to say, personally, not for the UFC, but I
    am in favor of sports betting around the world, around the
    country especially.
        Mr. Pallone. Thank you.
        What does UFC do to ensure integrity and transparency in
    MMA matches?
        Mr. Ratner. They make the bets competitive, is really what
    the words we use. Very seldom do you see a fight that odds-wise
    is 10 to 1, or 15 to 1, or 20 to 1. They are all pretty close.
        And, yes, there is betting, and we don't encourage fighters
    to go in there to the sports book. We certainly don't want them
    betting against themselves. That would be certainly illegal.
    But, yes, I see nothing wrong with it. I saw Evander Holyfield
    fight Mike Tyson, and his whole camp bet on him, and they got
    big odds, and they walked away happen.
        Mr. Pallone. In your experience, has the availability of
    sports betting affected fans' interest and engagement in UFC
    fights?
        Mr. Ratner. Absolutely, it really is meaningful and you see
    in all our broadcasts that fighter A is a 2-to-1 favorite over
    fighter B, and people bet.
        Mr. Pallone. Now, you were previously the executive
    director of the Nevada state Athletic Commission, and since you
    have joined UFC, you have helped UFC get licensed to operate in
    Nevada and other states.
        Is UFC subject to any state regulation in the U.S. that
    helps ensure integrity and transparency when it comes to sports
    betting?
        Mr. Ratner. Well, the only state that has sports betting is
    Nevada right now, I think that if your legislation goes
    through. But I work strictly with the athletic commissions, and
    whatever rules they have--each state is a little bit
    different--we adhere to. We run to regulation. It is very
    important to us, but when it comes to sports betting outside
    the state of Nevada, I cannot answer that.
        Mr. Pallone. Now, what would happen if there was an
    allegation of unfair play or match fixing? Does the UFC have a
    process in place to respond to those allegations if there were
    such an allegation of unfair play or match fixing?
        Mr. Ratner. Well, we have a whole legal team. There has
    never been a case of match fixing in the UFC, but we would
    address it, absolutely.
        Mr. Pallone. OK. And even in states that haven't legalized
    sports betting, people are still wagering illegally on UFC
    fights and other sporting events, correct?
        Mr. Ratner. Well, I know there is offshore betting. I do
    know that. I don't know if it is illegal to go on the internet
    and bet on it. I cannot answer that directly, but we are
    certainly aware of it.
        Mr. Pallone. All right. Now sports betting in Nevada has
    been legal for decades, and the state has comprehensive
    regulations in place to govern and tax sports betting. So, Mr.
    Ratner, does legalizing sports betting and bringing it into the
    sunshine you think help sports leagues that are trying to
    protect the integrity of their games?
        Mr. Ratner. Yes. I think that it is very, very important.
    In the state of Nevada, the sports books uncovered a basketball
    point shaving, just because, all of a sudden, all the money
    went on a different team, and they knew something was wrong. So
    I think it is very important for the integrity of all sports.
        Mr. Pallone. How would legalizing sports betting in states
    other than Nevada affect UFC's efforts to ensure integrity in
    MMA fights, do you think?
        Mr. Ratner. I think it would be the same as Nevada.
    Wherever they would want to have it, we welcome it, and I think
    it would be a boon to the different states.
        Mr. Pallone. All right. My last question is does the UFC
    support the expansion of legalized sports betting to other
    states in the U.S. as long as strong safeguards to protect
    consumers and ensure the integrity of the sport were in place?
        I guess you gave me your opinion, but does that reflect the
    UFC, or just your own personal----
        Mr. Ratner. That is my opinion. We have new owners, and I
    don't want to say something that may be misinterpreted. But as
    far as I am concerned, I am completely for it nationwide.
        Mr. Pallone. All right. Thank you so much.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        And the chair recognizes the gentlelady from Illinois, the
    ranking member of the subcommittee for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you. At our 2016 hearing on mixed
    martial arts, we heard from the Association of Boxing
    Commissions and Combat Sports, the National Organization of
    State Regulators, that the association has generally, ``taken a
    position against youth participation.'' But youth interest in
    MMA is growing, and the UFC offers MMA classifies and boot
    camps for children as young as 6 years old.
        Dr. Dams-O'Connor, kids' and teens' brains are still
    developing. Can concussions and other forms of traumatic brain
    jury cause more damage and last longer in kids and teens than
    adults?
        Ms. Dams-O'Connor. So this is definitely an evolving area
    of research. A recent study actually found that exposure to
    head trauma through contact sports incurred greater risks for
    people who were exposed before the age of 12, a somewhat
    arbitrary cut point. But in general, the probably conventional
    logic amongst researchers is that earlier exposure is
    associated with worse outcomes.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Does suffering a traumatic brain injury
    when you are young make you more vulnerable, is there research
    on this, to additional brain injuries in the future?
        Ms. Dams-O'Connor. Yes. So one of the greatest population
    level risk factors for sustaining a subsequent traumatic brain
    injury is having sustained a previous traumatic brain injury.
    So yes.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Are you concerned that 6-year-olds are
    participating in MMA?
        Ms. Dams-O'Connor. It depends on the extent to which
    proactive measures are being taken to ensure the safety of
    those kids, to the extent that kids are being taught to fall
    safely, to limit or prevent head trauma exposure.
        Again, I think that the benefits of sports participation
    need to be weighed against those risks, but it is a pretty
    young age, and it certainly raises some increased concerns.
        Ms. Schakowsky. So are there any precautions that could
    ease your concerns if they were put into place?
        Ms. Dams-O'Connor. I think that, at that age, the most
    prudent approach would be extreme caution in terms of actually
    limiting and penalizing any head trauma exposure in the
    youngest athletes.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Isn't that what is kind of central to the
    sport?
        Ms. Dams-O'Connor. Essentially, but I think that there is a
    lot about martial arts, including MMA, that has to do with
    athletic development, with physical development, with life
    lessons. So a lot of that would ideally be preserved. In the
    youngest athletes, however--again, there is no safe age at
    which sustaining a TBI--it is not safe at any age. In the
    youngest athletes, it is particularly unsafe. I think long ago,
    it was thought that, because of neuroplasticity, younger people
    recovered better after a brain injury, but we now know that
    that is not the case. In fact, the developing brain is most
    vulnerable to long-term effects of brain injury.
        Ms. Schakowsky. In a 2016 study, researchers found that a
    third of MMA fights end in a knockout. I want to talk a bit
    about knockouts or a technical knockout. In fact, UFC fighters
    can earn bonuses of $25,000 to $50,000 if they win a fight with
    a knockout or technical knockout.
        A technical knockout occurs when the referee decides a
    fighter cannot safely continue, while a knockout is the loss of
    consciousness.
        So we have heard from experts that the greatest risk factor
    for TBI is a previous TBI. I just wanted to get to the issue of
    knockouts.
        In your view, are fighters who have previously been knocked
    out more susceptible to being knocked out again in subsequent
    fights?
        Ms. Dams-O'Connor. I think the reach would support that
    notion that someone who has previously sustained a knockout is
    not just at risk for subsequently sustaining another traumatic
    brain injury but also for slower recovery after each subsequent
    brain injury.
        Ms. Schakowsky. So, if that is the goal of the sport--that
    is, you make more money if you knock someone out--and there is
    general agreement that that is dangerous, translating that to
    youth sports, isn't that a problem? The kids like this because
    probably they are watching adults in the MMA sports.
        Ms. Dams-O'Connor. It is an enormous problem. Any sport
    that has as a goal traumatic brain injury with loss of
    consciousness is tremendously concerning. Over the years, the
    regulations that have been applied to MMA and to boxing have
    changed. They differ across state lines, and the sport has
    changed in response. It is not unprecedented that changes in
    regulation have actually changed the sport.
        In MMA, there is a lot of competition that involves
    technique and skill that has nothing to do with incurring head
    trauma. A lot of the sport would be preserved even if knockouts
    became no longer an acceptable component of the sport.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Latta. Thank you very much.
        The gentlewoman yields back.
        And the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Texas for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I want to thank the chair and the ranking member for having
    the hearing today.
        As several of our witnesses pointed out, the popularity of
    mixed martial arts has grown significantly in recent years.
    This hearing is a good opportunity to look at the increasing
    important industry of the MMA and try to see where Federal law
    can both support its success and help make sure the fighters
    are protected.
        Mr. Couture, can you tell us about the current ranking
    system of MMA impact fighters?
        Mr. Couture. The current ranking system in mixed martial
    arts is set up and is established by the promoter himself. So
    Bellator has their own rankings. UFC has their own rankings.
    Professional Fight League has their own rankings. They
    establish those rankings based on the fighters that are under
    contract with that promotion. They create their own titles and
    have those fighters that are under contract with them fight for
    those rankings and those titles.
        There is no independent organization established that
    crosses and covers the entire sport for rankings and/or titles
    at this time.
        Mr. Green. How much does a fighter's athletic ability
    contribute to their rank, since there are no standards?
        Mr. Couture. Well, as I stated in my comment, there is no
    real regulated amateur sport at this time, and I think that
    that is something that our sport needs to address. We need a
    sanctioning body or an amateur sports organization that covers
    mixed martial arts nationwide, like USA Wrestling or USA Boxing
    or USA Taekwondo or USA Judo, that would regulate the amateur
    sport, and then you would see young athletes that compete in a
    watered-down version of MMA.
        To assume that we are having 6-year-olds beating the hell
    out of each other, frankly, like a professional mixed martial
    artist, I don't think that is what we are seeing. I don't think
    that is what happens.
        Are they training in mixed martial arts? Absolutely.
    Learning submission skills and the general body movements and
    they are training on striking and all those things, but they
    are not competing and trying to knock each other out. Contact
    is part of every sport. My sister was subjected to concussions
    in soccer from heading a soccer ball. It is there. We all know
    the inherent risk in the sports we partake in. But I think you
    are right: mitigating that risk is important.
        But rankings would come through that amateur system. As I
    came out of wrestling, there was no professional outlet for me
    as an amateur wrestler, as an Olympic caliber wrestler. I
    forayed into mixed martial arts because I could use all those
    skills in mixed martial arts. I had to learn a lot of other
    skills as well, the striking and the other things that weren't
    encompassed in wrestling, but I had a certain level of
    expectation placed upon me, but there was no official ranking
    because of my wrestling background. It doesn't really exist in
    mixed martial arts right now.
        Mr. Green. So you think an independent ranking system would
    change the MMA industry?
        Mr. Couture. I think an independent ranking system--we were
    just talking about a world championship. Well, there was no
    other athlete from any of these other promotions that was
    included in that ranking or able to even compete for that world
    championship. So how is that a true world championship? It is
    basically ceremony for that particular promotion to say that is
    the world championship.
        If we had an independent ranking system that included all
    the promotions that have fighters signed to their promotion and
    rank them with some criteria that is officially recognized by
    the athletic commissions, then we could have promoters compete
    to make those best fights happen, and those fighters could then
    be remunerated for the possibility to fight for that real world
    championship.
        Mr. Green. Since we are looking at this legislation on the
    Muhammad Ali Act, do you have any recommendations on ways that
    MMA fighters and promotion companies might be able to reduce
    the risk of head injury?
        Mr. Couture. I think right now with current medical
    requirements by most all the state and Tribal athletic
    commissions, CT scans, regular physicals and checkups,
    suspension processes that are put into place by athletes that
    are TKO'd or KO'd for at least a minimum of 90 days after a
    fight, a lot of the regulations that are in place now from the
    athletic commissions are working. Is it inherent risk in
    training? Absolutely. But we as fighters, the last thing I want
    to do is sustain a concussion or get knocked on my butt while I
    am in that 10-week training camp going into a fight. So I train
    with very specific guys that I know, that I trust. I wear head
    gear a lot of times. I use bigger, more padded gloves than I
    will on the night of the fight when it is on the line to
    mitigate that possibility that I sustain a cut or that I get a
    concussion going into that fight. We are smart. We are not out
    there just trying to beat the hell out of each other.
        Mr. Green. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman. I know I
    am out of time, but you told us that the MMA fighters would
    have more economic independence to ensure they can operate as
    independent contractors. Can you tell how that would work and
    how--an example of you give fighters more control over who they
    fight or how many times a year they fight?
        Mr. Couture. We are independent contractors now. I was an
    independent contractor when I was under contract with the UFC.
    That is how our sport is set up. So it is up to me what I get
    paid for the times I fight, to regulate my taxes and all those
    other things as an independent contractor. I am not an employee
    of that promoter. I am signed on an independent contract with
    him as an independent contractor.
        If I was allowed to cross promotion lines, my example was
    the Fedor Emelianenko fight. He was signed with Pride; I was
    signed with the UFC. Those are promotions. They promote fights.
    But there was no crossover. It wasn't allowed. There was no way
    for me to go fight what most people in the media felt was the
    number one fighter in the world, Fedor Emelianenko, because I
    was signed to an exclusive contract with the UFC.
        This is that coercive--if I want to be ranked and fight for
    that promotion, I have to sign that exclusive contract, sign
    away all my ancillary rights in perpetuity in a whole bunch of
    categories that are worth a lot of money. And I am not allowed
    to go and fight that guy that I want to fight that would have
    been a Super Bowl of mixed martial arts at that time.
        Mr. Green. Mr. Chairman, I know I was way over time. I
    thank you.
        Mr. Latta. The gentleman's times has expired.
        And seeing no other members here to ask questions, again, I
    want to thank our witnesses for testifying before the
    subcommittee today.
        And I would like to include the following documents be
    submitted for the record by unanimous consent: the statement of
    Ms. Tracey Lesetar-Smith at Bellator MMA; a letter from Mr. Jon
    Fitch, professional MMA fighter; on behalf of the UFC, a letter
    to the Committee on Energy and Commerce and the Committee on
    Education and Workforce; a New York Times Magazine article; two
    National Review articles; a Washington Examiner article; and a
    Daily Caller article.
        [The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
        Mr. Latta. Pursuant to committee rules, I remind members
    that they have 10 business days to submit additional questions
    for the record, and I ask that the witnesses submit their
    response within 10 business days upon receipt of those
    questions.
        And, without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:49 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
        [Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]

                     Prepared statement of Hon. Greg Walden

        Good Morning, and thank you to all of our witnesses for
    appearing before this Committee today. Thank you especially to
    Mr. Couture-although I understand you were born in Washington
    State, you have spent enough time in Oregon that for purposes
    of this hearing we will consider you an honorary Oregonian. \1\
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ For reference only: Mr. Couture lived in Corvallis, where he
    served as a wrestling and strength coach for OSU, and he started ``Team
    Quest,'' a training camp for MMA fighters, out of Gresham. For a time
    he was listed as ``fighting out of Roseburg, OR'' on his MMA profile.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        This hearing will also examine H.R. 44, the Muhammad Ali
    Expansion Act, sponsored by our colleague Congressman Markwayne
    Mullin of Oklahoma. I look forward to a thoughtful discussion.
        Mixed martial arts have enjoyed tremendous popularity since
    UFC 1 was held almost exactly 24 years ago in Denver, Colorado,
    on November 12, 1993. Since that event the sport has grown to
    be an international sensation, viewed in 1.1 billion homes in
    156 countries around the globe. And it is an economic
    powerhouse: last year the UFC sold for $4 billion, and both UFC
    and Bellator compete for contracts with the most well-known and
    accomplished fighters that battle at widely-attended events.
        In the U.S., mixed martial arts bouts are subject to
    regulation in all 50 states. These regulations are primarily
    concerned with protecting the integrity of the sport and the
    safety of the fighters.
        In many ways MMA's regulation is similar to that of boxing,
    but the two sports have differences beyond merely the tactics
    employed by the fighters. Unlike in boxing, MMA has no
    centralized ranking system, and title bouts are largely
    determined by the promoters of the sport. Fighters are treated
    as independent contractors, and enter into agreements with the
    promoters of a particular MMA organization, which may contain
    exclusivity clauses barring the fighter from engaging in
    unapproved fights.
        The growth of MMA in the United States has been a
    tremendous success story. At today's hearing we look forward to
    hearing the witnesses describe their experiences as regulators,
    competitors and promoters, and to learn about any ideas or
    recommendations that can help MMA continue to thrive. This
    Committee is committed to ensuring the safety and well-being of
    the athletes, healthy competition among promoters, and support
    for our state regulators.
        Thank you and I yield back the balance of my time.

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