    [House Hearing, 115 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                        PROTECTING NORTH KOREAN REFUGEES

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA, GLOBAL HEALTH,
                            GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS, AND
                          INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

                                     OF THE

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                               DECEMBER 12, 2017

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 115-98

                                   __________

            Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

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                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                     EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman
    CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey     ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
    ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida         BRAD SHERMAN, California
    DANA ROHRABACHER, California         GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
    STEVE CHABOT, Ohio                   ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey
    JOE WILSON, South Carolina           GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
    MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas             THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
    TED POE, Texas                       KAREN BASS, California
    DARRELL E. ISSA, California          WILLIAM R. KEATING, Massachusetts
    TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania             DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island
    MO BROOKS, Alabama                   AMI BERA, California
    PAUL COOK, California                LOIS FRANKEL, Florida
    SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania            TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii
    RON DeSANTIS, Florida                JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
    MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina         ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
    TED S. YOHO, Florida                 BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania
    ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois             DINA TITUS, Nevada
    LEE M. ZELDIN, New York              NORMA J. TORRES, California
    DANIEL M. DONOVAN, Jr., New York     BRADLEY SCOTT SCHNEIDER, Illinois
    F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,         THOMAS R. SUOZZI, New York
        Wisconsin                        ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York
    ANN WAGNER, Missouri                 TED LIEU, California
    BRIAN J. MAST, Florida
    FRANCIS ROONEY, Florida
    BRIAN K. FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
    THOMAS A. GARRETT, Jr., Virginia
    JOHN R. CURTIS, UtahAs of
        12:44 pm 11/29/17 deg.

         Amy Porter, Chief of Staff      Thomas Sheehy, Staff Director

                   Jason Steinbaum, Democratic Staff Director
                                     ------

        Subcommittee on Africa, Global Health, Global Human Rights, and
                          International Organizations

                   CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey, Chairman
    MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina         KAREN BASS, California
    DANIEL M. DONOVAN, Jr., New York     AMI BERA, California
    F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,         JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
        Wisconsin                        THOMAS R. SUOZZI, New York
    THOMAS A. GARRETT, Jr., Virginia

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                   WITNESSES

    Ms. Hyeona Ji, North Korean defector, co-chairperson, Worldwide
      Coalition to Stop Genocide in North Korea......................     5
    Ms. Han Ga Hee (alias), North Korean defector, announcer and
      sound engineer, Free North Korea Radio.........................    14
    The Honorable Robert King, senior adviser, Korea chair, Center
      for Strategic and International Studies (former U.S. Special
      Envoy for North Korean Human Rights Issues)....................    28
    Mr. Greg Scarlatoiu, executive director, The Committee for Human
      Rights in North Korea..........................................    34
    Ms. Suzanne Scholte, president, Defense Forum Foundation,
      chairwoman, North Korea Freedom Coalition......................    43

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    Ms. Hyeona Ji: Prepared statement................................    10
    Ms. Han Ga Hee (alias): Prepared statement.......................    18
    The Honorable Robert King: Prepared statement....................    31
    Mr. Greg Scarlatoiu: Prepared statement..........................    36
    Ms. Suzanne Scholte: Prepared statement..........................    47

                                    APPENDIX

    Hearing notice...................................................    66
    Hearing minutes..................................................    67
    The Honorable Karen Bass, a Representative in Congress from the
      State of California: Material submitted for the record.........    68

                        PROTECTING NORTH KOREAN REFUGEES

                                  ----------

                           TUESDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2017

                           House of Representatives,

                     Subcommittee on Africa, Global Health,

             Global Human Rights, and International Organizations,

                         Committee on Foreign Affairs,

                                Washington, DC.

        The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:00 p.m., in
    room 2200 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Christopher H.
    Smith (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
        Mr. Smith. The subcommittee will come to order, and good
    afternoon to everybody.
        At a recent House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing, North
    Korea defector Ambassador Thae Yong-Ho testified about the
    strategic value of both disseminating information into North
    Korea and the protection of North Korean refugees in China.
        Drawing on an analogy about the fall of the Berlin Wall,
    Ambassador Thae claimed that there may be a similar result if
    China stopped repatriations of refugees in the United States
    and the international community, expanded soft power news and
    information flows into North Korea.
        He was very dramatic in his testimony and couldn't be
    clearer just how much of a game changer it would be if the
    refugees could find a place of refuge in China, and then on to
    other places like South Korea and other places where freedom
    flourishes.
        This hearing will explore the current situation facing
    North Korean asylum seekers and assess both the Chinese legal
    obligation to protect refugees and the effectiveness of global
    efforts to stop what the U.N. Commission on Inquiry on Human
    Rights in North Korea called crimes against humanity
    experienced by refugees.
        As the Congress continues to look at ways to best apply
    maximum diplomatic and financial pressure on the regime of Kim
    Jong-un, this hearing will explore the strategic relevance of
    further pressing the Chinese Government to protect North Korean
    refugees and evaluate the impact of surging outside information
    into North Korea will have.
        Amid escalating tensions on the Korean Peninsula, we cannot
    forget those suffering under the North Korean regime and those
    North Korean refugees who are in China.
        North Korean asylum seekers are in imminent risk of
    repatriation, torture, sexual violence, forced abortions, hard
    labor, and even execution.
        China's repatriations of the North Koreans is a stark
    violation of both the spirit and the letter of the Refugee
    Convention and the 1967 protocol to which China has acceded.
        The Chinese Government has a lot to answer for. It is no
    wonder that the U.N. Commission on Inquiry for North Korea
    Human Rights concluded that the Government of the People's
    Republic of China is aiding and abetting in crimes against
    humanity by forcefully repatriating North Korean refugees.
        I would note that as many as 90 percent of North Korean
    women refugees in China today fall prey to traffickers who will
    sell the refugees into sexual slavery or forced marriages.
        Suzanne Scholte, who will testify during this hearing,
    previously brought women who were refugees from North Korea--
    Mrs. Ma and others--who for the first time told the story about
    how they were exploited inside of China and forced into sex
    trafficking.
        It was just horrific testimony, but an eye opener about how
    they went from an exploitation in North Korea into exploitation
    into China.
        Labor trafficking is also pervasive. The Government of
    North Korea and the government and businesses in China, Russia,
    and elsewhere in the world profit from the trafficking of North
    Korean laborers.
        In recent months, Chinese authorities reportedly deported
    hundreds of South Korean missionaries and NGO workers who have
    provided crucial help to the North Korean refugees in China.
        The people providing that assistance have been ousted as
    well. The international community, especially the United
    Nations, Trump administration, and the U.S. Congress must
    insist that China honor its treaty obligations and end its
    egregious practice of systematic repatriation of North Korean
    refugees.
        I would note parenthetically I have raised this repeatedly
    with now the Secretary General and the former head of the UNHCR
    and never got a good answer. So the U.N. really needs to step
    up to the plate here.
        Chinese officials and businesses complicit in repatriation
    of North Korean refugees or those who profit from labor
    trafficking should also be held accountable.
        The Congress has given the administration the sanction
    tools that, if used, would send the right message and
    especially hold people to account. Whether it be through the
    North Korean Sanctions Enforcement Act, the Global Magnitsky
    Act, or those sanctions attached to China's Tier 3 designation
    for trafficking in persons.
        All should be used strategically and swiftly to send a
    clear message. For too long the world has tolerated China's
    failures to protect refugees, and those complicit in
    repatriations of refugees who profit from the trafficking of
    North Koreans should be held accountable.
        The annual repatriation should be a bellwether for judging
    China's willingness to curtail Kim Jong-un's nuclear ambitions.
    In addition to the protection of North Korean refugees, this
    hearing will also assess global efforts to surge news and
    information into North Korea.
        Expansion of existing efforts to disseminate information
    into North Korea is especially important, if for nothing else
    than to tarnish and undermine the Kim family cult of
    personality where they are lifted up as gods.
        The Kim family cult must be taken seriously as a national
    security threat and a barometer of Kim Jong-un's power. The
    cult of personality, sometimes called Juche, has inspired
    devotion from the North Korean people because of the cradle to
    grave propaganda that they endure.
        We must undermine the Kim family cult and the big lies upon
    which it is based and the propaganda that grants Kim Jong-un
    almost godlike status.
        This status has allowed three generations of the Kim family
    to starve and abuse the North Korean people and divert scarce
    resources to the military and to their nuclear programs.
        We must have an information surge into North Korea. Human
    rights groups are smuggling DVDs and USB sticks with video
    about the Kim family's sins into North Korea right now.
        Balloons are launched across the border with promises of a
    better life in South Korea. Radio programs broadcast daily
    messages and news urging North Korea's elite to defect and turn
    against Kim Jong-un.
        We know some of these efforts are having an effect. We saw
    several high-level defections of diplomats, military officers,
    and the families of North Korea's elites in the last year
    alone.
        The number of asylum seekers depressed for several years by
    upgraded security efforts in China have begun to rise. Efforts
    to get information into North Korea must be expanded
    dramatically and Washington should be leading this effort,
    working primarily with North Korean defector groups in South
    Korea and other human rights organizations.
        The North Korean defector groups should be front and center
    in this effort. They know North Korea and they know the minds
    of the people. They know what information is needed to
    permanently tarnish the Kim family cult and what will motivate
    military leaders to defect.
        Today's hearing takes place among growing tensions on the
    Korean Peninsula. We must seek all available options to deal
    with and resolve the issues at hand.
        I now yield to my good friend and colleague, Ms. Bass, for
    any comments she might have.
        Ms. Bass. As always, thank you, Mr. Chair, for your
    leadership on this issue and so many other issues, particularly
    involving human rights.
        We know that this is an important hearing on the plight of
    refugees fleeing North Korea and the leadership role that we
    can play in protecting their human rights.
        I also want to thank our witnesses for being here today and
    I look forward to your insight. I would especially like to
    thank them for their courage and their resolve to testify.
        We know that North Korea is home to one of the most
    repressive governments in the world. The U.N. Commission on
    Inquiry on Human Rights has called for an investigation into
    violations that may amount to crimes against humanity, and it
    is common knowledge that the quality of life for everyday North
    Koreans is deplorable. They face widespread malnutrition, acute
    food shortages, and extreme poverty.
        When it comes to these human rights abuses, Democrats and
    Republicans agree that the atrocities taking place in North
    Korea must be stopped.
        We must continue to pursue bipartisan policies that promote
    human rights and work with the U.N. and our international
    partners to hold North Korea accountable.
        While our military options in North Korea area limited, we
    can still advance human rights and respect the aspirations of
    the people there.
        One way to do so is through information. North Koreans have
    limited knowledge of the outside world but increasing their
    access to information can help create an informed populace
    which will in turn benefit them as well as the international
    community.
        I would like to point out that although the number of North
    Koreans seeking asylum in the U.S. is low, it behooves us to
    welcome and support those refugees who do reach us, given how
    much they have already suffered.
        The people attempting to escape North Korea face
    insurmountable odds, mostly to China where they are likely to
    be repatriated to North Korean officials and forced in the
    labor camps.
        Given the human rights crisis in East Asia, we need to act
    decisively. This is why I am deeply troubled that despite the
    egregious reports concerning North Korea and the national
    security threat it poses, the administration has still not
    appointed a U.S. Ambassador to South Korea.
        It is critical that we have American diplomats on the
    ground. I also continue to be deeply troubled and critical of
    the administration and in particular President Trump's juvenile
    and unprofessional verbal attacks on the North Korean
    leadership.
        Like the chair said, the regime--the cult has to be taken
    seriously and my concern is that these attacks, especially the
    nature of them--calling the North Korean leader names--these
    attacks diminish our ability to bring about change and, in my
    opinion, only reinforce the regime's propaganda that the U.S.
    is waiting to attack.
        With that, Mr. Chair, I yield my time.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you very much, Ms. Bass.
        I would like to now turn to Dan Donovan.
        Mr. Donovan. Mr. Chairman, I'll yield my time so as to
    allow the witnesses more time to testify.
        Thank you very much.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you very much, I'd say, to my friend.
        Let me begin by welcoming our first panel. We have two
    panels today. Ms. Hyeona Ji, who is a North Korean defector,
    human rights activist, and writer. Her entire family decided to
    escape North Korea in 1998. Ms. Ji was soon arrested and
    repatriated to North Korea during the first repatriation in
    February 1998 and was harshly interrogated and beaten, and
    witnessed other repatriated North Koreans, including adults,
    children, pregnant women, undergo beatings and invasive
    searches for hidden money.
        Ms. Ji escaped North Korea again in April 1998, leaving
    behind her younger brother, to search for her mother and sister
    in China. She was caught by sex traffickers and sold for
    $25,000 Chinese yuan.
        In April 1999, she was arrested by Chinese authorities
    again and forced to be repatriated again for the second time.
        In November 2000, she escaped North Korea for the third
    time. In 2002 she was arrested and forcibly repatriated to
    North Korea again. This time, while 3 months pregnant upon her
    arrival in North Korea, she underwent a forced abortion without
    anesthetics, almost dying from blood loss at the hands of North
    Korean authorities.
        Ms. Ji was about to be sentenced without a fair trial. But
    thanks to a compassionate security officer, she was able to
    avoid further incarceration and in October of that same year
    escaped North Korea again.
        Since her arrival in South Korea in 2007, Ms. Ji has been
    very active as a human rights activist in South Korea and
    abroad, telling the world of her experience, of multiple
    escapes and forced repatriation. She is currently co-
    chairperson of the Worldwide Coalition to Stop Genocide in
    North Korea. We welcome her and are honored to have her testify
    today.
        Our second witness will be Ms. Han Ga Hee, who was born in
    1980 in North Korea. She studied at an ag college and worked as
    a laborer at a collective farm.
        While in North Korea, she listened to the radio broadcast
    of Free North Korea Radio. The difficult conditions in North
    Korea and her curiosity led her to cross the border to go to
    China in 2002.
        She worked various jobs in China but was always in constant
    danger of repatriation to North Korea. After 6 years in China,
    she saved up enough money to hire a broker to get her to South
    Korea.
        After she paid him the money, the broker dropped her off at
    the border of Mongolia and handed her a compass and told her to
    head north across the grassland and the Gobi Desert.
        Alone, she walked for several days without knowing where to
    go and finally was found by Mongolian police. Once she reached
    South Korea in '08, she went to visit the Free North Korea
    radio station and learned the truth.
        All the people working there were defectors who fled North
    Korea. She has been working ever since for Free North Korea
    Radio--that's 8 years now--and has become a news announcer and
    is a producer of a gospel program.
        We welcome her and are honored to have her testify as well.

         STATEMENT OF MS. HYEONA JI, NORTH KOREAN DEFECTOR, CO-
      CHAIRPERSON, WORLDWIDE COALITION TO STOP GENOCIDE IN NORTH
                                 KOREA

        [The following statement and answers were delivered through
    an interpreter.]
        Ms. Ji. Hello, my name is Hyeona Ji and I would like to
    express my appreciation to Members of Congress for your
    interest and concern for North Korean human rights.
        In North Korea, the fact that 3 million people starved to
    death didn't seem out of the ordinary. The determination to
    escape from a country that denies its people freedom and human
    rights was stronger than the will to survive.
        So I decided to leave North Korea, my close friends,
    neighbors, and my lovely hometown, and I left my fate up to the
    Tumen River at the border between China and North Korea.
        In 1963, 3 years before the height of China's Cultural
    Revolution, my ethnic Korean-Chinese father, at the young age
    of 16, crossed the border into North Korea to find freedom.
        In December 1997, he heard radio programs aired on the
    Korean Broadcasting System--KBS--while visiting family in
    China. Realizing that he had been duped his entire life, he
    came back to North Korea and persuaded the rest of us to leave
    North Korea.
        So in February 1998, my father crossed the border in search
    of freedom again into China and by way of going upstream in the
    Tumen River, and with my mother and my two younger siblings we
    escaped via a lower part of the river downstream.
        We were supposed to meet him at a predetermined location in
    China. But he was soon arrested--that's what we determined--and
    we have not known of his whereabouts for the last 19 years and
    my mother and two siblings and I were also immediately arrested
    and repatriated.
        Afterward, I witnessed my mother being kicked with hard
    shoes for defecting and we were forced to sit down and stand up
    nearly 100 times doing the squatting motion in the process of
    being inspected for any illegal contraband, especially money,
    and we were subject to very severe thought criticism at the
    numerous agencies of the North Korean Government.
        And, of course, our neighbors and friends gave us the cold
    shoulder. I was taken to and tortured at the Ministry of State
    Security for keeping a small Korean language Bible given to me
    from my mother, because in North Korea they don't allow freedom
    of religion.
        I was released only after lying that I found it on the
    ground after severe beating and torture, and my mother and
    younger sister went to China and were supposed to return in a
    couple days. But they were kidnapped and sold.
        And they went to China in search of food to bring back to
    the family but they were arrested and sold into this human
    trafficking situation. And my youngest sister, who was only 17
    at the time, was sold and forced to marry an ethnic Chinese man
    who was over 40 years old.
        I myself was also trafficked and so my brother lost all of
    us when he was only 10 years old when he was left back in North
    Korea. When I was repatriated a year later, that was when I
    began to witness the worst of North Korea's human rights
    atrocities.
        At the Jeungsan Detention Facility, pregnant women were
    forced to do hard labor all day long. Because North Korea does
    not allow for mixed ethnicities, they made repatriated women
    who became pregnant in China to miscarry by forcing them to do
    hard labor.
        At night we heard pregnant mothers screaming and babies
    dying without being able to see their mothers. I was reunited
    with my mother, whom I had not seen for a year, when I was sent
    to the provincial police jail because she herself was also
    repatriated, and because of the abuse and torture that I
    received at this facility, my bones and my rib were not healed
    properly and as a result I still suffer from that beating.
        I was soon separated from my mother and then sent to the
    Jeungsan Re-education Camp Facility Number 11. This is the
    place where people that went in did not come out alive.
        This is the place where people were forced to do hard labor
    and because of lack of food given to the inmates they were
    forced to eat locusts or skin live frogs and reptiles and rats
    and eat that to make up for the deficient food that was given
    to them, and many inmates died from malnutrition and from
    suffering from diarrhea.
        Almost everyone who died was buried at a place that we
    inmates called Flower Hill. But everyone knew that the dead
    bodies ended up being food for the dogs belonging to the guard
    that kept watch over the burial site and these dogs belonged to
    the guard that was placed there to watch over the dead bodies.
        At the Jeungsan Re-education Prison Camp Number 11, I was
    beaten with a wooden bar and kicked for not obeying commands on
    time and as a result of this beating and other mistreatment,
    not only did I suffer broken ribs that didn't heal properly,
    but to this day I suffer from chronic illnesses like epilepsy
    and fibromyalgia.
        I was given a 1-year sentence but was pardoned after 8
    months on Kim Jong-il's birthday on February 16th, 2000, and I
    escaped again, knowing that I had to tell the world about North
    Korea's human rights realities.
        However, I was arrested and repatriated in China again for
    the third time and sent back to North Korea, this time 3 months
    pregnant, and I was forced to undergo an abortion without any
    medication at the police station in North Korea.
        So my first child passed away without ever seeing the world
    and without any time for me to even say sorry to my child. Even
    though I was haemorrhaging to death, they were filling out
    papers to send me to the Hamheung Re-education Prison Camp
    without even a fair trial.
        Thankfully, there was an officer on my case who took pity
    on me and let me be released from the prison due to my
    condition. Even though I was in terrible health, I crossed the
    Tumen River yet again to go into China.
        I had to do this because I vowed to myself and I made a
    promise to the people that I saw at Jeungsan Prison Camp that I
    would survive and live the life that they never got to live.
        And I made this vow crossing into China because I wanted to
    tell the world what the experience and to tell the people that
    I would survive and live the life that they, prisoners in
    Jeungsan, never got to live.
        Between my first escape from North Korea in February 1998
    and 2007, I was repatriated three times and escaped North Korea
    a total of four times.
        I spent 8 months in a re-education center and some time in
    China, which was a foreign place to me, before finally reaching
    South Korea in 2007.
        As soon as I arrived, I arranged for my mother and her
    daughter to come to Korea via Myanmar. But I had no news about
    my two younger siblings and father.
        And then one day my brother arrived in South Korea and my
    brother had been on the street for--alone for 13 years and we
    could not do anything but hold him, embrace him and cry.
        And the following year in 2011, my little sister, who was
    only 17 when I last saw her, made it to South Korea via
    Thailand at the age of 31. So we were reunited after 14 years
    of separation and we wept with joy and we vowed that we will
    never be separated again.
        Right this moment, I miss my father terribly and this
    longing is not unique just for myself. It is a longing of all
    North Korean defectors. The recent case of the running of the
    defector soldier across the joint security area represents a
    dash toward freedom. That is the dream of 25 million North
    Korean people.
        North Korea is one terrifying prison and the Kim regime is
    carrying out crimes against humanity in North Korea, and it is
    only a miracle that people and I, myself, survived the hellish
    experience of the prison camp.
        However, the Chinese Government continues to send North
    Koreans seeking freedom back to this prison. On November 4th of
    this year, a mother and her child were detained on their way to
    meet their father in South Korea--in China.
        The excitement of meeting his father was momentary because
    the Chinese Government sent them back on a deadly path back to
    North Korea.
        China, which has lived through a so-called ``Cultural
    Revolution,'' is well aware of what happens to repatriated
    defectors and how they will be treated. Yet, it continues to
    send North Koreans back.
        How is this different from murder? I strongly urge the
    Chinese Government to discontinue and stop the forcible
    repatriation of North Korean refugees.
        Much like the Apostle Paul, who says in the Gospel that he
    is indebted for the Gospel, I confess to my father and to those
    who have died in prison after repatriation and to all North
    Koreans that I am in debt for my freedom.
        And so yesterday I asked the U.N. officials and today I ask
    Members of Congress and other people gathered throughout the
    world to fight for the freedom and human rights of North
    Koreans and repatriated defectors who do not even have the
    right to know or the right to own anything and who have no
    freedom at all in North Korea.
        I will now read a poem that I wrote for a book of poetry
    that I wrote in memory of the prisoners that dies in the prison
    camp, and it is titled, ``Is Anyone There?''
        I am afraid. Is anyone out there?
        This is hell. Is anyone out there?
        Despite my urgent pleas, no one is opening the door for me.
        Is anyone there?
        Please hear our cries.
        Hear the pain of us getting stepped on.
        Is anyone there?
        Is anyone there?
        People are dying. My friend is dying also.
        I am calling and calling. Why is there no answer?
        Is there really no one there?
        There's a poet--Dutch poet by the name of Job Degenaar and
    he said, ``The doors to prison must be opened from the
    outside.''
        And so I appeal to you, to the United States, to South
    Korea, to all of us here to find many ways we can open the
    doors to North Korea.
        And when you meet people from North Korea once it becomes a
    free country and the people of North Korea ask you, what have
    you done as earlier beneficiaries of freedom that we do not
    have, all of us will have a good answer in reply to those North
    Koreans.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Ji follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                  ----------

        Mr. Smith. Ms. Ji, thank you very much for that very moving
    and inspiring testimony and also your challenge to each of us
    to do more.
        There are all of us out there but there needs to be more of
    us and we need to raise our voices even more effectively and
    louder as we go forward. So thank you for that call.
        Ms. Hee.

      STATEMENT OF MS. HAN GA HEE (ALIAS), NORTH KOREAN DEFECTOR,
          ANNOUNCER AND SOUND ENGINEER, FREE NORTH KOREA RADIO

        [The following statement and answers were delivered through
    an interpreter.]
        Ms. Hee. Hello. Thank you very much for this opportunity to
    be a witness in this hearing.
        My name is Han Ga Hee. I escaped from North Korea into
    China and in China I was human trafficked, and while being
    trafficked I was given a Bible and the Bible became my light,
    and eventually I found my way to South Korea and I am here
    before you.
        I am still living the fears that I had back in China. I had
    a knife put to my neck and the choice was either that I get
    married to a Chinese man living in the countryside or else.
    Those were the choices I had and those are the fears that I
    still live every night.
        I was caught three times and I was sold three times, and
    after the third time that I was human trafficked I found an
    escape.
        Since this was during winter time at minus 30 Celsius, I
    had escaped to ensure that my footprint would not be found. So
    I had to walk in the little stream that was there and as a
    result I had frostbite, and the frostbite keeps on reminding me
    of what happened. Every winter I get them back.
        However, this is not something that I myself am the only
    one living with. It's something that many of the refugees from
    North Korea are living with and also especially true for
    children from North Korea.
        What I had led was a very harsh life and what I had to
    endure was very dreadful. But for me, there was hope. The hope
    came in the name of freedom, Free North Korea Radio.
        When I had initially heard the broadcasting on Free North
    Korea Radio, initially I had thought actually this was sort of
    a propagation by South Korea, possibly by the National
    Intelligence Service of the South Korean Government in order to
    lure North Koreans into South Korea.
        There is a movie that's widely shown in North Korea. It's
    called ``Psychological Warfare.'' Basically, the story goes
    South Korean Government lures North Korean people into South
    Korea, takes their intelligence, and kills them all.
        When I watched the movie, I truly believed this was what
    was taking place, and not just me but I believe other North
    Koreans also believed that to be true.
        Well, one of the programs that was quite impressive to me
    when I heard in China broadcasted by Free North Korea Radio was
    about Seong Hye-rim. The title of the program was, ``I am
    Friend of Seong Hye-rim.''
        Seong Hye-rim is a wife to Kim Jong-il, and in that program
    I heard about all the women that Kim Jong-il and Kim Il-song
    around them and all the womanizing that took place. It was a
    shock to me because these are the very people that we had
    worshipped while we were in North Korea but I came to realize
    that they were trash of human beings.
        And also, we had been told that Hwang Jang-yop, the
    Secretary, had been killed by commandoes sent by North Korea to
    South Korea. However, through the broadcasting we learned that
    he was alive and well and I heard his voice and many of the
    messages that he had sent for us.
        While I was living in China, hiding from the authorities, I
    really wanted freedom and I realized freedom was not free--that
    I could not just sit still and try to get freedom. I had to
    find my way to freedom.
        So what happened was in August 2008, I was given a compass
    and just a compass--that's all I had--and I walked across the
    deserts of Mongolia. I believe it was Gobi Desert that I
    crossed and eventually ended up in South Korea.
        Even today, there are many North Koreans who are living in
    China and they want freedom. However, these people are in fear
    of the Chinese authorities who are repatriating these people to
    North Korea.
        And when these North Koreans are repatriated back into
    North Korea, what is waiting for them is not all that pleasant.
    Many would be sent to political prisons. Others would be
    tortured and some may even be executed.
        One time I was cut by the authorities and I was sent to a
    state security prison, and in the prison I stayed there for
    about 15 days. I recall there was a woman who was repatriated
    from China.
        She was pregnant and the guards yelled out that she was
    pregnant with impure blood, and I believe that she was beaten
    to the point where the pregnancy was terminated.
        However, the actual beating was not by the guards but at
    the command of the guards the North Korean men who were
    repatriated, these were the people who were forced into beating
    the woman, and what choice did these men have?
        Well, it's laughable that on the World Human Rights Day
    that North Koreans would come out and say that they do respect
    human rights.
        Well, these are the people who still, to this date, are
    carrying out public executions and also they consider their
    residents less than logs or coals.
        Perhaps the biggest abuse of human rights by North Koreans
    would be starvation that North Korean people are having to
    suffer and also the nonprovision of the bare necessities that
    these people need to have as human beings.
        And let me speak briefly on my father, who had to have his
    legs amputated. He went to China looking for food for us.
    However, he was caught and later had to amputate his legs for
    some reasons.
        And why was it that he had to lose his legs? Well, after
    having been caught by the military, he was sent to a prison and
    at the prison actually he was facing the Tumen River on a
    certain night and he did not have anything on him.
        He was completely naked and he was forced to kneel looking
    toward the Tumen River. It was minus 30 degrees Celsius and he
    was beaten by a leather belt and thereafter he was left
    kneeling, looking toward the river, for the night and as a
    result he had frostbite and his legs had to be amputated.
        And after the amputation it didn't take long for his life
    to be ended. It is laughable that they would have a declaration
    of human rights when the regime itself is carrying out all
    these atrocities including stratification of people into
    classes based on who they were born or based on their lineages
    and not even providing the basic necessities required for human
    beings.
        The ruthlessness of the North Korean regime has gotten even
    worse since Kim Jong-un has come into power in 2011. However,
    this tyranny cannot last forever. We know that.
        And the very reason why he carries out these politics of
    fear is because there is collapse that's taking place
    internally in North Korea and this is very apparent by hearing
    from North Koreans who have escaped. One would be the very
    soldier who had escaped through the joint security area not too
    long ago and then there are other North Korean refugees who
    have been interviewed by our radio.
        And what we do at the Free North Korea Radio is to listen
    to the refugees. We use their voices and we compare the lives
    of North Koreans and South Koreans and also tell the truth
    about what takes place outside of North Korea.
        And what we do is we have network of people in North Korea
    including elites of North Korea who would be provide
    intelligence and information to us and those information are
    disseminated through broadcasting.
        Included in our activities are not just the broadcasting
    but also sending materials into North Korea by way of crossing
    the border between China and North Korea.
        We have sent many USBs, SD cards, CD players, and radios to
    North Korea, and of the refugees that have been surveyed, 5 to
    10 percent of the people have stated that they have actually
    heard broadcasting through Free North Korea Radio.
        When we are talking about North Korea, they are completely
    eliminating flow of information from outside. When you say 5 to
    10 percent of people have heard, that's a lot of numbers.
        And also for 10 minutes per day we have music that's
    played. But this is actually a play on words because we use the
    North Korean music but we change the lyrics so that it's not
    about Kim Jong-un or Kim Jong-il any longer.
        For example, there would be music titled, ``In My Father's
    Footsteps'' and we would switch the word father into Jesus, and
    also that ``We trust in the general'' the general would be
    changed into ``in our God.''
        By using the tunes that are familiar to North Koreans but
    changing the lyrics, it's gotten easier for us to get the
    information into North Korea and into the heads of these
    people.
        My mother still remains in North Korea and I have heard
    through certain people that she's doing okay and that she's
    also worshiping the God that I believe in.
        So the sarcastic saying is that amongst North Korean people
    North Korea is known as a capitalistic society with a twist,
    and what that tells us is that there is tremendous internal
    collapse that's taking place in North Korea.
        And that is why Kim Jong-un is ruling by fear. He knows
    that his control and grasp on North Korean people is slipping.
        Mr. Smith. If I could just interrupt 1 second, and I would
    ask you to continue your testimony momentarily.
        Just to ask a couple of questions--I have to leave. One of
    my bills, H.R. 3655, is on the floor in about 5 or 10 minutes.
    I will come back as soon as it's over.
        Dan Donovan, thankfully, has agreed to take the chair. So
    please come back. But I would want you and Ms. Ji to address,
    if you would, you have said that Kim Jong-un--it's even worse.
        Suzanne Scholte, who is the sole Peace Prize Laureate who
    has testified numerous times before this and other committees
    of Congress, points out that it's even worse under Xi Jinping
    because of his policies.
        So it's worse in China. It's worse in North Korea under Kim
    Jong-un. If you could elaborate on that it would be very
    helpful.
        If we were a panel of Chinese leaders, what would you say
    to them, especially it is illegal for them to forcibly
    repatriate North Korean defectors pursuant to the Refugee
    Convention to which, as we all know, they are signatories to.
        And finally, if you could speak to the issue of the cult of
    Kim--the godlike cult that they--and Juche that they inculcate
    beginning from the earliest years. How did you break out from
    that, since the propaganda is ever present and all--other than
    the great work you're doing, the information flow almost never
    happens during all of those formative years. So people come to
    believe that Kim is God--if you could speak to that.
        And I will have to read your answers on the transcript as I
    run off to this hearing.
        Voice. Can she finish her prepared statement?
        Mr. Smith. Of course. Please finish it. Exactly.
        Ms. Hee. And in times like this, it's more important that
    we get the right information into North Korea so we need to
    make sure that there is a steady flow of information into North
    Korea so the people in North Korea would come to realize what
    is really taking place out there.
        And so my focus is really on information flow. We need to
    have more information, more truth be told to the people of
    North Korea, to have this information flowing into North Korea,
    and in this regard we seek help from the U.S. Government and
    the U.S. Congress.
        And I hope and I believe, once we have this information
    going into North Korea that the collapse of North Korea would
    be not in the distant future but tomorrow.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Hee follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                        ----------

        Mr. Donovan [presiding]. Thank you, Ms. Hee.
        I am not too sure if you remember the chairman's questions.
    He wanted those answered. So he could read the transcript.
        So I'd ask Ms. Ji if you would answer the chairman's
    questions first and then, Ms. Hee, you can answer the questions
    as well.
        Ms. Ji. So I'll answer the congressman's second part of the
    question, which was if Chinese leaders were sitting in front of
    me how I would address them, and the first thing I would tell
    them is that the Chinese Government must stop the policy of
    forced repatriation of North Korean defectors back to North
    Korea.
        And North Korean defector women have become sort of a
    commodity in the sense that when they are being led away by
    unscrupulous Chinese brokers, the Chinese security apparatus
    members, some of them they will intercept this transaction and
    they themselves will get involved with the human trafficking
    and, in turn, sell the women to the highest bidder to other
    brokers. So this is happening in China right now among the
    security people of China.
        And I myself explain exactly that. I was actually in the
    process of being sold by the Chinese security officials. But
    because I was screaming and resisting so much, that's how I was
    able to escape when they were sort of stunned at my resistance
    that I showed to them when I was undergoing this treatment.
        North Korean defector women are not commodity. They are not
    material goods. They are human beings. And the fact that the
    Chinese Government officials--security officials--are--some of
    them are being involved with this is something that the
    international community should not forget or forgive.
        And the second thing that I would tell the Chinese
    officials if they were sitting in front of me in this room
    would be that the North Korean defector women who are forced to
    marry the Chinese men, the mothers themselves are basically
    stateless.
        But when they become pregnant by the so-called Chinese
    husband, the children that they bear they are stateless too.
    They have no identity. They don't exist, according to the
    Chinese Government. And in China right now, the mothers of
    these children, many of them have been repatriated back to
    North Korea.
        So you have a lot of kids who are either orphans or who do
    not have mothers or they basically are not cared for. So a lot
    of these children born to Chinese fathers and North Korean
    defector women are living in a very difficult situation in
    China right now.
        And what I would desire is that either process these
    children to be sent to South Korea or grant them some sort of
    identification or citizenship in China to these children born
    to Chinese husbands and North Korean defector mothers.
        And lastly, I would urge the Chinese Government to keep its
    promise as a signatory to the convention relating to status of
    refugees and to faithfully carry out its duties as a signatory
    to that convention by protecting the North Korean defectors
    that come into China instead of repatriating them.
        Lastly, I would say, as I mentioned in my testimony, North
    Korean defectors, when they are repatriated from China to North
    Korea, they face unspeakable inhumane treatment, sometimes even
    death, at the hands of the North Korean authorities.
        So the Chinese Government should accept the North Korean
    defectors that come to China and process them to be sent to
    South Korea.
        Mr. Donovan. Thank you very much.
        Ms. Hee, would you mind answering the chairman's questions?
        Ms. Hee. You ask how the current Kim Jong-un regime is
    different from the previous Kim Jong-il regime.
        Well, he is ruling by fear and it's very much of a fear
    that's being put into the minds of North Koreans. Kim Jong-un
    is a child who does not know the season and who in their right
    mind would want to go up against a superpower that is the U.S.
    and threaten the U.S. with nuclear capabilities that are not
    even completely mature?
        Well, my mom tells me when Kim Jong-il was in power, when
    celebratory occasions, on holidays, that there would be
    rationing provided by the government. But now that Kim Jong-un
    is in power, we don't have any rationing at all on any
    occasion.
        And the rule of fear or rule by fear is one strike, you're
    out. There are no generosities to be exhibited. We are not
    aware of any government upon change of power to have over 300
    elites of the government be publicly executed by way of air
    guns. Actually, that would be anti-aircraft artillery. And why?
    Why does he do that? Because he wants to rule by fear and this
    is the way he does it.
        And Kim Jong-un will continue to rule by fear. The way we
    will be able to stop the rule by fear is not by restraining him
    but alerting and raising the awareness amongst North Korean
    people as to what's taking place outside, epically true about
    South Korea--how much of a freedom and economic prosperity that
    we live in.
        And tying into the question about China, well, in order for
    us to be able to stop this ruling by fear, the pressure should
    not be on North Korea alone. The pressure should also be on
    China.
        What is true before is also true now, that China and the
    Chinese people would say that they are pressuring North Korea.
    No pressure there.
        Do you know why Chinese authorities repatriate North
    Koreans back to North Korea? For each person that's repatriated
    there is a return. They get logs and they get coal.
        The way I was caught by the Chinese authorities was an
    informant talked about me and I understand that that informant
    was getting 2,000 Chinese yuan. So per report that they make,
    they get 2,000 yuan.
        So when I was caught by the Chinese authorities, who are
    known as Gong An, I asked them why do you have to take me and
    why do you need to send me back to North Korea and what one of
    the officers had told me was that he had to make a living and
    this was an agreement between the governments.
        They know very well that once we are repatriated we will be
    suffering at the hands of North Korean guards. So the basic
    idea--there is a math--that we may die once we get back to
    North Korea but Chinese people would be getting the logs and
    coal.
        So about 70 percent of the North Korean territory and the
    seas are really actually mined by the Chinese people. So when
    that is true, would Chinese people really want to put the
    pressure on North Korea and would they really want unification
    on the Peninsula?
        So we can talk all day and we can have all these slogans
    asking for Chinese to put more pressure on North Korea. But
    these would be empty slogans. Nothing would come of them. We
    need to have real pressure that can be felt by the Chinese
    people.
        Thank you.
        Mr. Donovan. Thank you very much. Thank you, both of you,
    for your opening statements. Thank you for sharing your
    horrific experiences with us.
        I'd just like to ask one or two questions and then we have
    a second panel, and you've been sitting there graciously for
    over an hour for us.
        About 70 percent of the people, refugees from North Korea,
    are women. Why is that? Why do you feel most of the refugees
    are women?
        Ms. Hee. It's a strange question to answer but it's a good
    question nevertheless, because we don't know why. But in North
    Korea we have more women than men.
        And also men are serving in the military. It's mandatory.
    They have to serve for 13 years. So when you are stuck in a
    system for 13 years you're not getting out easy.
        For a woman, once we escape to China we have other means
    for making a living. We can work in restaurants and we may even
    be trafficked. But still, we get to eat. But that does not
    happen for men. There are not a lot of things that they can do
    in China and also once they go to China they get captured a lot
    easier. It's just simply very hard for men to hide in China.
        Mr. Donovan. Thank you very much.
        I would just ask you, you were talking about when women
    refugees then marry a Chinese man and have a baby, is the baby
    repatriated back with the mother back to North Korea once
    you're captured and if so, is there a difference if the child
    is a boy compared to if the child is a girl?
        Ms. Ji. I myself personally did not witness the children
    born to defector women and Chinese fathers being repatriated
    together with the North Korean defector women.
        However, I am aware that there are cases where the children
    born to--even though I haven't seen it myself, I am aware that
    that does happen where the children born to the defector women
    and the Chinese fathers are--if they are arrested together are
    sent back--repatriated back to North Korea.
        And regardless of whether that child is a boy or girl,
    there is no difference in the eyes of the North Korean regime,
    and usually they are sent to an orphanage and the mothers are
    sent to a re-education prison camp for punishment.
        Mr. Donovan. I was curious if the Chinese saw a difference
    between a boy being born to a Chinese man.
        Ms. Ji. The Chinese family members of the husband, if the
    mother--the defector woman--gives birth to a boy, they prefer
    sons, obviously. So they would prevent the mother from getting
    pregnant again because if they have a boy then they are
    satisfied.
        That's what they would want, to just keep it at that in
    terms of the viewpoint of the Chinese family and the Chinese
    husband.
        Mr. Donovan. Before I yield to Mr. Castro, if I could just
    ask each of you--I think you touched on it in your opening
    statement, Ms. Hee--but what would you like to see the United
    States Government do?
        Ms. Ji. Well, first of all, I would like to thank the U.S.
    Government for its great interest and concern for the North
    Korean human rights issue and also for, in recent days,
    pressing for the increase and stronger sanctions to punish the
    North Korean regime.
        So I would like to express, first of all, my appreciation
    for that position taken by the U.S. Government in terms of
    dealing with the North Korean regime.
        But I believe a stronger sanctions enforcement should be
    put in place by the U.S. Government toward the North Korean
    regime.
        And in addition to strengthening sanctions against the
    regime, the U.S. Government should expand and increase the
    activities of information dissemination into North Korea, and
    the latest ways that the U.S. can do that is to provide
    internet by using satellite, for example, and that's one way
    that the U.S. Government can help bring outside information to
    the North Korean people directly, bypassing the regime's
    control.
        Mr. Donovan. Ms. Hee.
        Ms. Hee. Would it be okay if I were to address an earlier
    question about repatriation of kids?
        Mr. Donovan. Yes. Certainly.
        Ms. Hee. Yes, that does take place in China. So under two
    separate scenarios, one would be if, as a mother, you are
    caught on the streets with your child, then you would both get
    repatriated. And also, if there is a raid and the child does
    not want to detach itself from the mother, then they both get
    repatriated.
        And who actually does the repatriation? The Chinese
    Government. That's what they do. They are smiling behind their
    curtains, and we have all these slogans--all these empty
    slogans that are not heard by anybody in China.
        Mr. Donovan. My last question the committee would like to
    have at least on the record about reports recently that the
    Chinese Government is building at least five refugee camps
    along the border. I am curious whether your sources can confirm
    that and what you think that may mean.
        Ms. Hee. I believe that's in the news but I don't believe
    that was confirmed yet and through our sources we have not been
    able to confirm it. So maybe it's not happening.
        Ms. Ji. So I myself, even though I've heard of those
    reports of the Chinese Government supposedly building these
    facilities, I don't know for sure but I do know for a fact that
    through people that have contacted me from inside China and
    other sources that the Chinese Government, they fear a rush of
    North Korean people escaping from North Korea in case there is
    a war or some sort of major event happening.
        So to prevent that that the Chinese Government on the
    Chinese side of the border they have reinforced the
    surveillance and the security in the region, for example,
    putting up more electrified fences and strengthening on the
    Chinese side their mechanisms to prevent North Koreans from
    crossing over in case of a major event.
        Mr. Donovan. I thank you both for your diligence and the
    chair now recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Castro.
        Mr. Castro. Thank you. Thank you for your courage and your
    bravery and also for coming here to testify today.
        I have a question about the families that are left behind
    after people leave North Korea, after they defect. How are
    those family members treated after people leave North Korea?
        Ms. Hee. I escaped alone. I have my family still in North
    Korea. I think my family is still safe. That's because North
    Korean authorities do not really know that I am here.
        So I have also feared for the safety of my family and so I
    have thus far not worked in the open. So in November of this
    year, I had a teleconversation with my mom and I told mom that
    I would like to do more activities in the open regarding human
    rights, and this would bring about unification on the Korean
    Peninsula sooner, I told her.
        But I also told her I was very much in fear for her
    welfare. And what my mom told me was that each day it's
    becoming harder for her to breathe and that she would die one
    way or another.
        She didn't care, and she told me that I should do what I
    thought was the right thing to do. And that is why I am now in
    the open for 8 years working for Free North Korea Radio. No one
    knew of my identity. Now, perhaps, they do.
        Mr. Castro. And you live in South Korea now?
        Ms. Hee. Yes.
        Mr. Castro. Okay. I have a follow-up question but I wanted
    to give you an opportunity to answer the same question.
        Ms. Ji. So as I mentioned in my testimony, all my family
    members are with me in South Korea except for my father, who
    has been missing for the past 19 years, and I have been able to
    get in touch with my aunt, who is still in North Korea. I have
    been able to send her money and also every once in a while call
    her as well.
        But it's been about 10 years since I've been an active
    human rights activist out in the open. I've written two books
    already.
        But it's been more than a year that I have had trouble
    trying to get in touch with my aunt. So perhaps the regime has
    finally caught up to what I am doing and perhaps did something
    to my aunt. I don't know. But it's been hard for me to get in
    touch with my aunt.
        Mr. Castro. You don't know if she's been punished or what
    happened?
        Ms. Ji. So I was able to send somebody through, using
    brokers and through sending money to send somebody to my aunt's
    house in her village. But the report I got back was that the
    house was empty. There was nobody at the house. So something
    happened to my aunt. I just don't know exactly what happened to
    her.
        Mr. Castro. And are you living in Seoul now or in South
    Korea?
        Ms. Ji. Yes, I am living in South Korea.
        Mr. Castro. Well, I have a question for both of you.
        One of the goals for a long time for the people of South
    Korea and, I imagine, many people in North Korea has been for
    unification of what for decades now has been two separate
    countries.
        And I asked the same question of another defector when we
    did a larger Foreign Affairs panel--the main committee panel--a
    few months ago.
        Is reunification realistic, given the fact that these
    countries have been separate countries now for many decades and
    you have now seen both societies--both North Korea and South
    Korea.
        How significant are the differences? Can those differences
    be bridged for reunification?
        Ms. Ji. So as you mentioned, I did experience both life in
    North Korea and now I am living in South Korea, and North Korea
    is a Communist regime and South Korea is a free market
    capitalist society.
        And for me, upon my first time being in South Korea as I
    started my resettlement it was very difficult for me to adjust
    to a life of freedom and a free market capitalist environment.
        However, after some time I was able to adjust very well
    into this democratic free society in South Korea and so far
    there have been up to around 32,000 North Korean defectors that
    have resettled in South Korea and out of the 32,000 defectors I
    would say about 80 percent of those defectors in South Korea
    like myself are able to send money to our relatives and family
    members in North Korea.
        So I have heard from not only the sources in North Korea
    but from other sources as well that many North Korean people in
    North Korea who have family members in South Korea have been
    aware that South Korea is a country that is rich, that is
    abundant, and that South Korean products are sought after, and
    that in some cases the high-ranking officials even want to
    marry off their children to family members of North Koreans who
    have people that have escaped to South Korea because that means
    they are able to get money from their relatives in South Korea.
        So that's been the sort of shift that's happened in North
    Korea regarding their views on South Korea and South Koreans.
        And you mentioned the differences between North Korea and
    South Korea. So I would say that even though North Korea may be
    a Communist system on the outside, but inside the people,
    because of the emerging markets and because of the capitalist
    ventures started by many citizens in North Korea, many North
    Korean citizens are more aware of and they have become very
    well attuned to the free market capitalist ideals that we would
    find in South Korea, for example.
        And I personally believe that this may lead to a quicker
    fall of the regime and an even faster reunification of the two
    Koreas in the Korean Peninsula.
        Mr. Castro. I yield back. Thank you.
        Mr. Smith [presiding]. Thank you.
        I want to thank our very distinguished and courageous panel
    for your testimony and, above all, for your life's work, which
    has been extraordinary.
        And some day, when North Koreans are free you will be among
    the true heroes who helped make it happen. So thank you so very
    much.
        Ms. Ji. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Smith. Dan, thank you.
        I would like to now welcome our second panel, if I could,
    to the witness table, beginning first with Ambassador Robert
    King, and I want to say a big welcome back to Dr. King, who,
    for so many years, sat over here with Tom Lantos as his top
    chief of staff. So it's great to have Ambassador King back.
        He, as I think most will know, was our special envoy for
    North Korean human rights issues from 2009 to 2017. Since
    leaving the department he is senior advisor to the Korea chair
    at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
        For 25 years--a quarter of a century--from '83 to '08
    Ambassador King served as chief of staff to Congressman Tom
    Lantos when Mr. Lantos became ranking minority member and then
    chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
        Dr. King served as committee staff director, and that was
    from '01 to 2008. In addition to his full time jobs, Dr. King
    has taught courses in U.S. foreign policy and international
    relations at the University of Southern California German study
    program, Brigham Young University study abroad program,
    American University in Washington, DC, New England College in
    New Hampshire.
        Ambassador King is the author of five books and over 40
    articles on international relations topics. We welcome him back
    again to the committee.
        I would like to then welcome and introduce Greg Scarlatoiu
    with the Committee for Human Rights in North Korea. He's the
    executive director of the committee.
        He has coordinated 20 HRNK publications addressing North
    Korea's human rights situation and the operation of its regime.
    He is a visiting professor at the Hankuk University of Foreign
    Studies in Seoul as well as instructor and coordinator of the
    Korean Peninsula and Japan class at the U.S. Department of
    State's Foreign Service Institute.
        Prior to HRNK, Mr. Scarlatoiu was with the Korea Economic
    Institute. He has over 6 years of experience in international
    development on projects by the U.S. Agency for International
    Development, the World Bank, and the Asia Development Bank.
        In 14 years he has authored and broadcast weekly in the
    Korean language. It's called the Scarlatoiu Column and it's
    with Radio Free Asia.
        A seasoned lecturer on Korean issues, Mr. Scarlatoiu is a
    frequent commentator for CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, Voice of
    America, Radio Free Asia, and other media operations. He has
    appeared as an expert witness at several congressional hearings
    on North Korean human rights and so we welcome him back today
    as well.
        And our third distinguished panelist will be Suzanne
    Scholte, who is also making a trip back and in the past has
    provided expert witnesses to this subcommittee and other
    committees of Congress including, as I mentioned earlier, the
    first women who were ever trafficked that came forward and
    spoke at a congressional hearing--trafficked, that is, from
    North Korea into China--and it was extraordinarily moving
    testimony.
        She is considered one of the world's leading activists in
    the North Korean human rights movement. She has spent the past
    two decades promoting the freedom and dignity of the North
    Korean people and is currently president of the Defense Forum
    Foundation, a nonprofit foundation promoting a strong national
    defense and freedom, democracy, and human rights abroad.
        In 1996, she began a program to host the first North Korean
    defectors in the United States, giving them a voice to speak
    out about atrocities being committed against the people of
    North Korea including the political prison camps and the
    horrific treatment of refugees.
        She has led international efforts to pressure China to end
    their horrific repatriation policy and has been involved in the
    rescue of hundreds of North Koreans escaping their country.
        Currently, she also serves as the chairwoman of the North
    Korea Freedom Coalition, vice co-chair of the Committee for
    Human Rights in North Korea, and honorary chair of the Free
    North Korea Radio.
        I welcome all three of our distinguished panelists and I
    yield the floor to Dr. King.

     STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ROBERT KING, SENIOR ADVISER, KOREA
     CHAIR, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES (FORMER
        U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY FOR NORTH KOREAN HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES)

        Mr. King. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        It's a pleasure to be back with you again. Usually I sat on
    the other side behind you and Mr. Lantos. It's a different
    position to be down here today but I am glad to be ``home.''
        I want to thank you for your focus on human rights and for
    what you have done with the subcommittee in terms of calling
    attention to these issues and problems.
        I want to commend you on the caliber of the witnesses--the
    other witnesses that have testified today. It was extremely
    helpful to have these two women who have, at great difficulty,
    been able to leave North Korea and talk about their
    experiences, and again, it's a pleasure to be here with Greg
    and with Suzanne to talk about these issues.
        Refugees or defectors who have chosen to leave North Korea
    is one of the key issues in the broader question of human
    rights in the North.
        There has been a steady flow of defectors from the North
    since the famine of the late 1990s. Over the last two decades,
    some 30,000 North Koreans have fled the country. The vast
    majority have resettled in South Korea.
        The concern of Americans to help these defectors from the
    North was one of the principal factors behind the adoption of
    the North Korea Human Rights Act in 2004.
        Since the adoption of that legislation, the State
    Department and other Federal agencies have helped some 250
    North Korean refugees resettle in the United States.
        Most refugees, however, have chosen to settle in South
    Korea because of the familiarity of language and culture, as
    well as to join family members who are already there.
        The number of refugees leaving North Korea annually has
    recently declined. The high point, in about 2011, was some
    3,000 annually.
        But tighter control of the borders by the North and
    difficulty getting through China has caused that number to fall
    to less than 1,500 last year. The numbers this year look like
    they will be even lower.
        Virtually all defectors who flee North Korea today do so
    through China. Very, very few have been able to cross the
    inner-Korean border.
        A few weeks ago we saw a very rare exception when a North
    Korean soldier was seriously wounded as he tried to escape and
    fled through the DMZ.
        This indicates both the danger and how uncommon it is for
    defectors to go directly from the North into South Korea.
        For those who escape through China, there are very serious
    problems from being trafficked, sold as virtual slaves, or
    being returned to the North.
        In the past, when relations were good between China and
    North Korea, most defectors captured in China were quickly
    returned to North Korea where they were sent to brutal re-
    education camps that earlier witnesses have talked about here.
        A couple of years ago, I had a particularly memorable
    conversation in South Korea with a young women who had fled the
    North. She was finally able to reach the South.
        I asked her if this had been her first attempt. She said,
    ``Oh, no. This was my sixth try.'' Five times previously, she
    sought to leave. Five times she was captured either in North
    Korea before she left or as she crossed into China.
        She was returned to North Korean authorities and spent many
    months each time in a re-education camp where she was brutally
    treated.
        On her sixth attempt, she and a friend who was going to
    leave with her, decided to go but they also decided to take
    with them poison tablets. Rather than be forcibly returned
    again and sent to a re-education camp they would have taken
    their own lives.
        In the past, Mr. Chairman, when Chinese relations with
    South Korea have been good and China's relationship with the
    North has been strained, defectors have been allowed to go to
    South Korea.
        A couple of years ago in a very highly unusual arrangement,
    China allowed some 13 or 14 North Korean restaurant workers to
    fly directly from China to South Korea where they were
    resettled.
        A year or so ago, however, after the United States, with
    the cooperation and approval of the South Korean Government,
    established a THAAD missile battery in the South, this led to
    strained relations between China and South Korea.
        Since that time, it has, again, been more difficult for
    defectors from the North to reach South Korea through China.
        The United States Government has strongly supported South
    Korean efforts to assist defectors reach the South. On many
    occasions, I personally raised with senior Chinese Government
    officials our concern that defectors be permitted to flee the
    North, if that was their wish.
        I know that other, more senior State Department officials
    have also raised this matter with senior Chinese officials.
        Mr. Chairman, it's important that the United States
    continue to urge China to allow defectors to resettle elsewhere
    and if they wish to go to the South, our Government should
    continue to support South Korean Government efforts to help
    those people.
        Congressional support for refugees such as through the
    reauthorization of the North Korea Human Rights Act is
    important, and I urge approval of that reauthorization
    legislation. It has already been adopted in the House. It's now
    awaiting action in the Senate. But it's urgent and it's
    important that the legislation be reauthorized.
        A second matter that I was asked to talk about was the
    issue of providing free and unfettered information to the
    people of North Korea. The availability of accurate information
    about events beyond the borders in the North is extremely
    important to the North Korean people.
        Information limits Pyongyang's ability to manipulate its
    own citizens, and we must continue to encourage the free flow
    of information into North Korea. Although it is illegal to own
    a radio or television capable of being tuned to stations other
    than the official government station, based on survey research
    we estimate that as many as a third of North Koreans listen to
    foreign radio broadcasts, particularly programs from Voice of
    America and Radio Free Asia funded by U.S. congressional
    appropriations.
        These are extremely important. There are other creative and
    innovative programs which we fund--the U.S. Government funds--
    to get digital information to the North Korean people. These
    efforts need to be fully funded, encouraged, and expanded.
        Mr. Chairman, military options against North Korea are
    severely limited. But one thing that we can do that will
    encourage positive change in the North is to increase the flow
    of accurate information from the outside world.
        Our human rights efforts are an important aspect of our
    policy toward North Korea. We must not underestimate the value
    and importance of those efforts.
        Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to any
    questions that you have.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. King follows:]

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                                   ----------

        Mr. Smith. Thank you, Ambassador King.
        Mr. Scarlatoiu.

       STATEMENT OF MR. GREG SCARLATOIU, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE
               COMMITTEE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS IN NORTH KOREA

        Mr. Scarlatoiu. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the invitation
    to testify before you and the subcommittee today. It is a true
    honor and a privilege.
        The most critical challenge our country faces today is the
    nuclear and ballistic missile threat posed by the regime of Kim
    Jong-un.
        Grateful for the subcommittee's unabated determination to
    protect North Korean refugees in China, I respectfully urge you
    to continue to consider the vital importance of formulating and
    adopting a robust human rights policy including a North Korean
    refugee protection policy that can be integrated into U.S.
    security policy toward both China and North Korea's Kim regime.
        In 2014, China received a warning by the U.N. Commission of
    Inquiry that its policy of forcefully repatriating North Korean
    refugees could potentially amount to aiding and abetting North
    Korean perpetrators of crimes against humanity.
        China has been put on notice that its policies, practices,
    and support for North Korea are unacceptable. Yet, at the
    fourth annual U.N. Security Council meeting on human rights
    abuses in North Korea held yesterday, China called for a
    procedural vote to stop the public meeting.
        This effort failed but China persists in its efforts to
    support the Kim regime as evidenced by its forcible
    repatriation of North Korean refugees.
        Up to 80 percent of North Korean refugees in China are
    women. In the absence of any semblance of protection, they fall
    victim to human traffickers and other criminals.
        Many of those forced into sexual bondage under the guise of
    marriage with Chinese men in rundown rural areas are often
    abused by the would-be spouse and the entire family.
        Their children's human security is beyond precarious. China
    denies North Korean children the right to education, health,
    and personal security as well as liberty when they are
    detained, awaiting forcible repatriation.
        Our 2015 HRNK report, ``The Hidden Gulag IV,'' documents
    the particular vulnerabilities of North Korean women jailed in
    a network of political prison camps--kwan-li-so--and labor
    camps--kyo-hwa-so.
        Increasingly, these facilities house women who have
    attempted to flee the country and here rates of mortality,
    malnutrition, forced labor, and exploitation are high.
        China does not uphold its obligations under international
    law, as evidenced by the forcible repatriation of North Korean
    refugees in need of protection.
        China denies many North Koreans the ability to apply for
    asylum or have safe passage to the Republic of Korea or other
    countries. China claims that North Koreans are illegal economic
    migrants.
        In reality, however, not only are North Koreans targeted
    for escaping the totalitarian state, but they are targeted by
    the Chinese Government and ultimately victimized again once
    repatriated to North Korea and imprisoned. It truly is a
    vicious cycle of political oppression and violence perpetrated
    against countless innocents.
        Mr. Chairman, I respectfully recommend the following.
    First, the United States should urge China to immediately halt
    its forcible repatriation of North Korean refugees and thus
    fulfill its obligations under international treaties and
    customary international law.
        Second, the United States should call upon China to allow
    the U.N. High Commission for Refugees unimpeded access to North
    Koreans inside China to determine whether they are refugees and
    whether they require assistance.
        Third, the United States should call upon China to adopt
    legislation incorporating its international obligations under
    the Refugee Convention and the Convention Against Torture.
        It should be expected to declare and uphold a moratorium on
    deportations of North Koreans until its laws and practices are
    brought into line with international standards.
        Fourth, the United States should call upon China to
    recognize the legal status of North Koreans who marry or who
    have children with Chinese citizens and to ensure that all such
    children are granted resident status and access to education
    and other public services in accordance with both Chinese law
    and international standards.
        Fifth, in the absence of a Chinese response the issue
    should be brought before international refugee and human rights
    fora.
        UNHCR's executive committee as well as the U.N. Human
    Rights Council and General Assembly of the United Nations
    should all be expected to call on China by name to carry out
    its obligations under refugee and human rights law and enact
    legislation to codify these obligations.
        Sixth, the United States should promote a multilateral
    approach to the problem of North Koreans leaving their country
    based on the principles of non-refoulement and human rights and
    humanitarian protection.
        Building on the precedent of other refugee populations,
    international burden sharing should be developed to protect
    North Koreans seeking to escape the tyranny of the Kim regime.
        Seventh, following the passage of the North Korean Human
    Rights Reauthorization Act of 2017, which mandates the position
    of the special envoy for North Korean human rights, I
    respectfully urge the U.S. Congress to encourage the prompt
    appointment of a qualified candidate.
        I strongly believe that this particular issue merits the
    full time high-profile focus across various agencies that the
    special envoy has so effectively brought and would continue to
    bring.
        And eighth, and finally, additional funds should be
    appropriated for clandestine information flows into North
    Korea, for nongovernmental organizations working to improve
    human rights in North Korea, and for the resettlement of North
    Korean refugees in the United States.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Scarlatoiu follows:]

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                      ----------

        Mr. Smith. Thank you very much for your leadership and for
    that very detailed set of recommendations.
        Ms. Scholte.

      STATEMENT OF MS. SUZANNE SCHOLTE, PRESIDENT, DEFENSE FORUM
         FOUNDATION, CHAIRWOMAN, NORTH KOREA FREEDOM COALITION

        Ms. Scholte. First of all, I know I am going to embarrass
    you when I say this but I can't help it, Congressman Smith.
    [Laughter.]
        The last time we were together there were 18 North Korean
    defectors in your office, and I have to tell you when we walked
    out of there, those defectors said, ``That is the greatest man
    we've ever met,'' because you were so great to them and you
    have been focussing on this issue for decades.
        And so I thank you so much for your leadership on this, for
    your bringing this hearing together today and I just wanted to
    say what a great, awesome person you've been.
        I am also really happy to be here with Bob King, whose door
    was always open, who was always ready to help us when found out
    about a refugee that was in danger, always willing to speak out
    in--from small towns to college campuses and really raise the
    North Korean human rights profiles--issues as the special envoy
    for President Obama.
        And also for my colleague, Greg--one of the things on my
    top 10 list of good things I've done in my life was insisting
    that he become the executive director of HRNK. So I am really
    glad to be with these gentleman.
        So I have a very extended written testimony I've already
    submitted so I am going to be really brief and try to stay
    within the five--I think I got this down to 5 minutes 8
    seconds.
        So anyway, I want to make three main points. One, the
    situation facing North Korean refugees in China is worse than
    ever. Xi Jinping has brought us to a crisis stage because of
    his support for the regime.
        Today we are relying on China to help us make sanctions
    effective to rein in Kim Jong-un's nuclear ambitions. But if
    China continues to forcefully repatriate men, women, and
    children back to North Korea to face certain torture, certain
    imprisonment, and, in some cases, execution, what does that
    tell us about Xi Jinping's sincerity?
        The international community must insist that China and its
    cruel, inhumane, and illegal repatriation policy--China's
    policy as been--as been pointed out is a death sentence for
    North Koreans and as Ambassador King pointed out, 80 percent--
    and talked about the defectors poisoning themselves--we know 80
    percent of North Korean defectors carry poison to kill
    themselves and we saw that dramatically happen this summer when
    the Korean Workers Party member, his wife, and three children
    committed suicide when the Chinese, on orders by Beijing,
    ordered them back to North Korea after they begged to be
    allowed to go to South Korea.
        The Chinese Government continues to not only forcefully
    repatriate refugees but refuses to allow the UNHCR any access,
    but also gives free rein to North Korean agents to hunt down
    the refugees and those that try to help them.
        We have seen the murder of Chinese citizens. We have seen
    the abduction of South Koreans. And what do they have in
    common? They have been involved in the North Korean refugee
    movement.
        So that's the point that we've reached right now with
    China. China has only two choices. It can continue to support
    the Kim dictatorship and this will ensure an escalating nuclear
    arms race in Asia, which could have horrific and devastating
    consequences, especially for the people of Korea.
        Or the other choice, which is for China to work with South
    Korea and the international community for peaceful unification
    under South Korea's democratic policies.
        And I just want to give one example. The gentleman
    mentioned THAAD. I think both of you mentioned the THAAD.
        Why did South Korea need THAAD? The only reason why South
    Korea needed THAAD was because of Kim Jong-un's nuclear
    threats, and this is an illustration of why China needs to
    decide whether it's going to continue to support this regime or
    work with South Korea and bring about the end of the Kim
    regime.
        Second point--this is very critical, too--we need to
    recognize what the people of North Korea have done internally
    and externally to change their circumstances and support the
    work of the defector-led organizations.
        They are our greatest allies for peaceful regime change. We
    all see the pictures of the goose-stepping soldiers and the
    fawning men and women in front of the Kim statues and we think
    it's a hopeless situation.
        But in this great darkness of North Korea, I see the light
    of the North Korean people because those are the people I have
    been working with for over 20 years.
        The reality is--we must think of this--the reality is that
    the people of North Korea have accomplished amazing things.
    It's the people externally who educated us, first of all, about
    the human rights tragedy--the crimes against humanity, the Kim
    dictatorships. But it's the people internally who are also
    educating themselves about the outside world.
        It's the women of North Korea who internally created the
    market system and the ones externally who are involved the most
    in the rescue movement.
        I know a North Korean woman who has rescued 7,000 North
    Koreans. I call her the Harriet Tubman of North Korea.
        North Korean defectors like Park Sang-hak of Fighters for
    Free North Korea regularly sends in information through balloon
    watches and he says, ``All I am doing is sending letters home
    about the truth.''
        The North Korean People's Liberation Front, men and women
    who served in the North Korean military, are sending in
    information and reaching out to the military in North Korea,
    citing the examples of what happened in Romania when the
    military sided with the people against the dictator.
        Every North Korea Freedom Week we have a very emotional
    ceremony with the North Korean People's Liberation Front
    members, men and women who served in the military, raised to
    hate Americans, think we caused the war.
        They go to the Korean War Memorial to lay a wreath and they
    pledge to honor the sacrifice that the Americans made for South
    Korea's freedom by dedicating their own lives to North Korea's
    freedom.
        As you heard from Ms. Han from Free North Korea Radio, a
    radio station founded by North Korean defector Kim Sung-min and
    staffed by defectors, it is broadcasting every day. It is the
    most popular single program broadcasting into North Korea.
        And one of the exciting things we do for Free North Korea
    Radio is create programs for them to communicate to the people
    of North Korea that we are not their enemy.
        One program includes messages from Members of Congress in
    which we simply asked members to send their hopes and dreams to
    the people of North Korea.
        The response from North Koreans to this program was
    absolutely amazing. During this year's North Korea Freedom
    Week, defectors brought portraits made of Members of Congress,
    including our distinguished chairman here today--Congressman
    Smith, and Congressman Royce, the chairman of the full
    committee.
        These portraits were smuggled out. They were made in
    Pyongyang by two brothers. It took them 3 months, and the
    portraits came out with the message, ``Tell the American
    politicians who deliver the messages my brother and I spent 3
    months making them late into the night. Please tell them there
    are some people in a dark place who still have hope.'' And you
    know how beautiful--they were the most beautiful artwork I've
    ever seen. They shimmered.
        The defectors tell us that if they had the resources to
    carry out their work of getting information in and out of North
    Korea, the regime could end in 3 years or less.
        Otherwise, it could survive for another 5 to 10 years.
        My third and final point, we must keep the human rights
    issues at the forefront, and Greg mentioned the importance of
    the human rights up front approach. We have to keep our
    concerns for the people of North Korea at the forefront,
    especially now--especially now with the escalating threats of
    Kim Jong-un.
        Otherwise, we play directly into Kim's propaganda that
    justifies his nuclear ambitions--that we are their enemy and
    the enemy of the people of North Korea.
        We must communicate to the people of North Korea that what
    the United States wants for them is to enjoy the same freedoms
    that South Korea Americans enjoy.
        The defectors keep repeating--repeating this to us. The
    truth will set them free. Support the work of the defectors.
    Help them get the information to North Korea.
        And I am presenting to you this book today called, ``The
    Accusation.'' This is the only dissident book from North Korea.
    It was smuggled out at great risk to those involved. It was
    smuggled out.
        It was published in English earlier this year. The author
    is still living in North Korea and he chose to use the
    pseudonym Bandi--B-A-N-D-I, Bandi--because Bandi is the Korean
    word for firefly. And he says he is the firefly shining a light
    out of the darkness of North Korea.
        He's just another example of the people of North Korea who
    are another light shining out of this darkness. He's just
    another example of another North Korean risking his life just
    to get this message from his homeland to you.
        Thank you very much.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Scholte follows:]

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                                  ----------

        Mr. Smith. Ms. Scholte, thank you very much for your
    extraordinary leadership over the course of over two decades.
    It really has made a difference.
        I do have a number of questions but I'll try to keep them a
    little bit brief. If any of you would like to speak to the
    issue of the cult of personality, which I think is grossly
    underappreciated by the Pentagon and by many of the people
    within our own military.
        We know that when people believe that they are serving a
    god--in this case, a demigod, someone who is actually doing
    horrific things but claiming to be God--certainly, his
    grandfather did--that the sense of extremism and obsession
    almost knows no bounds.
        I know a lot of Americans, when they see documentary
    footage of people crying so profusely they think it's
    orchestrated, people tell me, including experts like
    yourselves, it's not.
        They really do--okay, they can gin some of that up but so
    much of it is from the earliest years inculcated into the minds
    and hearts.
        And I did ask our two previous witnesses, how do they break
    free of that, and the truth does set you free but it has to be
    applied over time which is why broadcasting and other means of
    communication are so important.
        But if you could speak to that whole issue of Juche. I've
    read one book about it by a Christian who said you've got to
    understand why they are so fanatical and why they will die in
    large numbers for Kim, whoever the Kim might be at that time,
    which we, again, under appreciate. The sense being able to
    reason effectively goes out the window.
        So I just ask you if you could speak to that first and then
    I'll get to some other questions.
        Mr. Scarlatoiu. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
        Indoctrination begins at a very early age in North Korea.
    It begins at the precognizant age. Babies in the cradle are
    taught to point fingers to the pictures of Kim Il-song and Kim
    Jong-il on the wall.
        Laws are on paper. North Korea has a constitution that even
    provides for freedom of religion and freedom of expression,
    labor legislation, a criminal code.
        But in practice, none of these laws are applied. North
    Koreans do not know the international obligations that North
    Korea has assumed by ratifying, for example, the International
    Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International
    Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights or their own
    legislation.
        The only principles that govern each and every aspect of
    life in North Korea are the Ten Principles of Monolithic
    Ideology as evidenced in our recent research and publications
    by Robert Collins. Each and every North Korean has to
    participate in weekly ideological training sessions, self-
    criticism sessions.
        This is very much part of life. During those long years
    that all men and many women spend in the military,
    indoctrination is taken to the next stage. One has, of course,
    to remember that the age of revolution in Budapest 1956, Prague
    1968, or Bucharest 1989 was late teens, early 20s, mid-20s.
        That's the age when each and every North Korean man is in a
    military uniform. By the time they are done the age of
    revolution has passed.
        Juche--of course, this is North Korea's self-reliance
    ideology. On the surface, it sounds very different from
    Marxism. Marxism basically preaches that ownership of the means
    of production is the main driver of history. Juche claims that
    the individual is the main driver of history.
        We had a senior fellow--resident senior fellow, very nice
    lady, born and raised in North Korea. She used to be a
    professor of Juche thought in North Korea. Now she's a
    university professor in South Korea.
        She would tell us every time we asked her about Juche,
    don't worry about Juche. The only--the sole purpose of Juche is
    to worship the leader, to solidify the leader's personality
    cult.
        Basically, the individual makes sense, individual life only
    makes sense for as long as it's lived as part of the
    commonwealth. Life makes sense only if it's lived for the sake
    of the Supreme Leader.
        As to information campaigns, the critical information
    campaigns that we launched into North Korea must surely be
    cognizant and fully knowledgeable of the different cognitive
    processes in North Korea.
        We must be fully cognizant that education is very
    different. World views are very different. The way North
    Koreans approach ideas is very different. So we are much better
    off if we have former North Koreans in charge of working on
    content and delivering this content perhaps in collaboration
    with other organizations. But they must definitely be involved
    in this process.
        Mr. King. Mr. Chairman, one of the things that I think we
    need to be careful about is that I am not sure the North
    Koreans are as indoctrinated as we would sometimes think.
        Barbara Demick, in her book, ``Nothing to Envy,'' talks
    about what life was like in North Korea. One of the very
    telling incidents she cites is about a particular family and
    how they dealt with the death of Kim Il-sung in 1994.
        The mother told the daughter, ``At school today you're
    going to have a memorial service for Kim Il-sung. You have to
    cry. You must have real tears. If you can't cry, spit in your
    hand and wipe it on your eyes so that everyone will know that
    you're crying.''
        They understand and they can see that. It's a society where
    to deviate becomes so difficult that people who may have
    different views or see things differently don't talk about it
    because of the nature of the society.
        I think this is not a place where you've got to convince
    people that other things are true. This is a place where people
    need to have an opportunity to do that.
        The key thing is making sure that we get information into
    North Korea that provides an alternative explanation of what's
    going on in the world and that, again, is the importance of
    news broadcasting and information dissemination.
        That is where we need to make sure that there is funding
    for Voice of America, Radio Free Asia, and for the programs
    that are being developed to do that.
        Mr. Smith. Ms. Scholte.
        Ms. Scholte. Well, first of all, I just want to tell you, I
    totally agree with you that this--the understanding of the
    Juche ideology is something that is completely under
    appreciated.
        The--one of the witnesses we had during North Korea Freedom
    Week this last year was from Pyongyang. She was part of the
    elites. She and her mom ran a restaurant, had the good life.
        She was--she said that when Kim Jong-il died, they thought
    they were all going to die, and I think maybe the Juche police
    system is probably more powerful in Pyongyang because it's the
    elites that are there and they are not--and they are more--
    actually more isolated than people, like, for example, in the
    border regions.
        But I think it's a very important controlling system in the
    brain, with the brainwashing from the start. But it's really
    focused on the fact that the Kim family are God and Juche has
    really become the worship.
        Not the self-reliance that Hwang Jang-yop, who's the author
    of Juche, established but the worship of the Kim dictatorship.
        And Hwang Jang-yop interestingly pointed out when he
    defected, he said the way to break the Juche ideology is with
    the Holy Spirit. He actually became a Christian before he died,
    and he was really involved with Free North Korea Radio and Ms.
    Han cited the programs where they--these are programs that
    are--that are done to worship the regime, the songs--I am
    sorry, the songs that are meant.
        They changed the wordings of the songs. And Greg mentioned
    the importance of the messaging. That's exactly the kind of
    thing to change to address that belief system directly with
    truthful information, and this is one of the clever ways that
    the North Koreans are being able to do it.
        But I do think it's very important that we realize the cult
    of personality that's part of this Juche and the brainwashing
    that starts from the very moment they are children when they--
    even math problems--``how many American GIs did you kill when
    you threw a grenade.''
        I mean, this starts at the very beginning. We need to be
    aware of that.
        And I'll finally say that the first defectors we brought
    over, one was an army captain. It was back in 1997, an army
    captain and a colonel, and they got up in front of the audience
    and said, ``None of you guys look like wolves and your noses
    are a lot smaller than I thought they were going to be''
    because all Americans are supposed to have these long crooked
    noses. But it's just part of that brainwashing that we need to
    be aware of and that's why getting information is so important.
        Mr. Smith. Mr. Scarlatoiu, you underscored that up to 90
    percent of the North Korean women and girls in China fall prey
    to traffickers in China who sell them into sexual slavery.
        As you might know, I am the prime author of the Trafficking
    Victims Protection Act and I tried for years to get China
    designated as a Tier 3 country, an egregious violator, in part
    because of the exploding sex trafficking within mainland China
    but also in large part too because of so many North Koreans who
    were so horrifically abused.
        And, again, Ms. Scholte provided us with several witnesses
    over the course of several hearings who were themselves
    trafficked and told their stories again before this committee.
        This year, the Trump administration has designated China
    Tier 3, and in the narrative explaining that, great focus is
    put on this trafficking problem.
        They are not in freedom. They are in another kind of
    slavery that they are trying to escape from in North Korea.
        So my question would be, because we do have votes now so I
    am going to ask a number of questions so that we can finish
    before the voting is over, but if you could speak to that.
        We are at the sanctions part now. Tier 3 has been
    designated. At the time and place--anytime, any day now, the
    administration could announce a series of sanctions toward
    China.
        What would you recommend that we do? There is a lot on the
    plate that could be imposed and I think a designation without a
    sanction weakens the designation significantly.
        Secondly, on the issue of refoulement, which you spoke to
    in your testimony, we know that the periodic review is coming
    up in November 2018 under the Refugee Convention.
        NGOs can begin submitting in the spring. But it seems to
    me, this ought to be an engraved invitation for every one of us
    to make China--China's sending people back to death--they are
    taking poison to avoid it--and certainly to torture and
    mistreatment in the gulag system.
        This is an opportunity to begin even right now, and your
    thoughts on that. And, of course, there are some--under
    customary international law there are other obligations to
    which China is obliged to. Any thoughts along those lines?
        There was a report today of five refugee camps--you heard
    it earlier mentioned to our two previous witnesses. Is that
    because China thinks something is going to happen vis-a-vis a
    war? Or is this just another modality of control that they are
    seeking to impose?
        The ICC, unfortunately, has had a very checkered--two
    convictions in 14 years. The International Criminal Court has
    not been that robust. But it seems to me, as you have been
    saying, and as the U.N. Commission has found, or at least would
    lead us to believe, when you're complicit in these crimes
    you're complicit, and it would seem to me that not just North
    Korea but the prosecutors should be looking at China's
    complicity in this terrible death spiral that they are on now.
        So if you could speak to that. I have many other questions
    but we will run out of time, so please.
        Mr. Scarlatoiu. Mr. Chairman, certainly, there is ample
    evidence of the abuse that has affected North Korean women in
    China for more than two decades now.
        We have to take that leap--link China directly to the
    egregious human rights violations affecting North Koreans and
    in particular affecting North Korean refugees.
        Perhaps we need to take a hard look at certain areas,
    certain industries, certain areas of the economy that are more
    closely related to this issue of North Korean refugees in
    China--the lack of protection, the vulnerability of these
    refugees, China's refoulement of North Korean refugees--take a
    very hard look at areas that could be perhaps subjected to
    sanctions.
        In--as far as the refoulement issue is concerned, we often
    hear the question as to why China is so reluctant to provide
    protection to these North Korean refugees.
        I would take the liberty of sharing a thought with you.
    Perhaps China is afraid of a development similar to the
    European picnic of the summer of 1989 when Hungary opened its
    border to East Germans and this outflow of East Germans out of
    East Germany was one of the fundamental factors that ultimately
    brought about the fall of the Berlin Wall.
        Clearly, if there is one step that China can take to make a
    huge difference--a very significant difference, that would be
    to stop the forcible repatriation of North Korean refugees.
        The International Criminal Court--the referral of the Kim
    regime by the U.N. Security Council to the International
    Criminal Court was one of the fundamental recommendations made
    in the February 2014 report of the U.N. Commission of Inquiry.
    North Korea is not a party to the International Criminal Court.
        Of course, the problem with the Security Council is that
    the P5 members--the permanent members--have veto power and
    China is one of them. The Russian Federation is, of course,
    another one.
        So we face the prospect of a Chinese or Russian veto. Where
    we are right now is that for a fourth time yesterday, the North
    Korean human rights issue was placed on the agenda of the U.N.
    Security Council.
        Now, placing the issue on the agenda is a procedural matter
    that requires nine out of 15 votes of permanent and
    nonpermanent members. Once the issue is taken up, it becomes
    substantive and it becomes subject to a veto by one of the P5
    members.
        Another possibility that has been raised by international
    human rights NGOs is the creation of a special tribunal through
    the General Assembly.
        The tool kit of accountability is a complex one and
    pursuing the avenue of the International Criminal Court is just
    one of many avenues we can consider.
        Mr. King. You raised an interesting question about dealing
    with the Tier 3 sanctions on China. The difficulty of looking
    at sanctions as the key on these issues with the North Koreans
    is that, again, we are in a situation where we are trying to
    get the Chinese to solve the North Korean problem for us
    because we have such limited abilities to do it.
        This is our problem with sanctions on the nuclear weapons
    and we are going to be in trouble if we take that same route on
    human rights.
        There is a real link between sanctions on trafficking and
    repatriation. The reason why these women are trafficked is
    because they will be repatriated if they don't have some way to
    hide their presence there.
        And if we can move the Chinese in a direction where they
    allow the North Korean refugees to leave China, we don't have
    to worry about sanctions for trafficking because there won't be
    a trafficking problem. These women will leave. I think we need
    to sort of look at it in a way that will allow us to work with
    the Chinese and try to put some pressure on them to make some
    progress on repatriation rather than saying, you know, let's
    slap more sanctions on the Chinese.
        It's an issue that's not easy. It's an issue that's
    complicated. But it's an issue that's connected and we need to
    figure out how to do it.
        And I think that's the difficulty of dealing with China. We
    don't like what the Chinese do. We don't like their human
    rights record. We don't like their obstacles in dealing with
    the North Korean human rights issue or the North Korean nuclear
    issue.
        The argument has been we are probably better to try to work
    with the Chinese because they are suffering from the same
    problem and if we can work with them maybe we will have some
    progress.
        It is helpful to have the threat of sanctions because it's
    very clear that the sanctions on nuclear weapons are successful
    because the Chinese are beginning to enforce them. The Chinese
    are beginning to enforce them because we have imposed sanctions
    on the Chinese for not enforcing them.
        So we need to balance that process out. But I think we need
    to focus U.S. Government policy not just on the nuclear weapons
    issue but also on the human rights issue because that's the key
    to opening up North Korea.
        Mr. Smith. Before I go to Ms. Scholte, Andrew Natsios
    testified before our subcommittee a couple years ago and that
    was precisely his major point--that we have delinked human
    rights from the nuclear issue in the same way we did it with
    Iran. And when--if it's a sidebar issue or something that's
    done out in the hallway, it doesn't get done.
        And when we fail, as we have failed, unfortunately, on the
    nuclear side, what do you have to show for it? People's human
    rights have not been advanced----
        Mr. King. Exactly. That's why we need a special envoy for
    North Korea human rights to make sure that that is part of the
    discussion. Yes.
        Ms. Scholte. Well, for bringing up sanctions, I did want to
    say one thing about North Korea sanctions, which has been
    reported because you brought up the topic of sanctions, Free
    North Korea Radio and other entities have reported that the
    people of North Korea--one of the big worries that we all had
    with the sanctions against North Korea is not wanting to hurt
    the people of North Korea--that it be very carefully targeted
    at Kim Jong-un and the elites.
        And what we are hearing now is not only have the sanctions
    not hurt the people of North Korea but they are actually doing
    better, that the--because there is products that they can't
    export that they are having to dump on the North Koreans.
        So all these costs have gone down. So I wanted to talk
    about that. But on the sanctions regarding China, first of all,
    I want to start out by saying this.
        I think we have really failed the people of China and I
    hope that we don't continue to fail the people of North Korea.
        But I think we have really failed the people of China
    because we have turned back on the many horrific human rights
    violations that are happening against the people of China at
    all different levels, and this has been going on for decades
    for all our, I would say, economic greed.
        And I would cite two experts on this. Dr. Greg Autry, the
    professor who wrote the book ``Death by China'' and explores
    the intellectual property theft and the things that the
    Chinese--and I am talking very specifically about the regime in
    China--have done and profited at the expense of the American
    people, and also Dr. Yang Jianli, who I know you have--who has
    been just an amazing leader in the Chinese human rights
    movement. But we have not--we have betrayed people like them
    that are fighting for the human rights of the people of China
    as well.
        And so I think any kind of sanctions or pressure on the Xi
    Jinping regime is critically important. He is culpable. He is
    committing crimes against humanity.
        And on the refugee camps, that was the rumors we have been
    hearing off and on for decades. Why would we need refugee
    camps? Just let the UNHCR go in there and start letting these
    people go.
        And I remember one time when there was a planeload of North
    Koreans that the Chinese allowed leave. It was in the summer
    because I remember I was on vacation. It was probably, like, 10
    years ago.
        But they let a planeload go and RFA called me up, tracked
    me down on vacation and said, ``Suzanne, Suzanne, do you think
    the Chinese are changing their policy? They are letting a whole
    planeload of North Koreans back to South Korea.'' And I said,
    ``Not unless the planes keep flying,'' and there were not any
    more flights.
        So I am not sure about these refugee camps. There is not a
    need for one. North Koreans are the only refugees in the world
    that have a place to go for immediate resettlement because they
    are citizens of South Korea under Article 2 of the South Korean
    constitution.
        They are unlike any refugees in the world. And I know we
    have a refugee crisis going on because of tensions in the
    Middle East and North Africa. But North Koreans don't--we have
    Hanawon, that's the refugee camp.
        Finally, on China fearing refugees, here's the thing. If
    China fears being overwhelmed by refugees if it showed some
    compassion, all it's doing is lifting off the pressure on Kim
    Jong-un that's causing all the tensions to begin with and
    relieving him of any reason to reform so that people don't want
    to leave.
        Talk to North Koreans. They don't want to leave their
    homeland. They love their homeland. They are only leaving
    because of the horrific human rights violations of a dictator
    there.
        So what China is doing is prolonging the dictatorship by
    forcing them back and being complicit in crimes against
    humanity.
        And I think that more and more Chinese are recognizing
    this. They are speaking out that the future is with South
    Korea. I believe that China fears having a strong unified
    democracy on its border and that's the reason why they are
    continuing to send the refugees back. They just don't want to
    see a Korea unified.
        I always point out that if the regime collapsed there is
    not going to be any refugee problem. The thing you're going to
    have to control is people trying to go there. And I always
    tease the pastors from--because the pastors, the Methodists and
    the Presbyterians, are going to be fighting to plant their
    churches there.
        Hyundai and everybody else is going to be going there to
    build plants. All the Korean Americans are going to be going
    home because that's their ancestral homeland--and the real fear
    is--what we will have to be concerned about is protecting the
    development in North Korea and protecting the North Korean
    people once that regime is gone from the flood of people coming
    in.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you.
        We have heard instances of U.N. agencies approving
    technology transfers to North Korea in violation of U.N.
    sanctions and the World Intellectual Property Organization--
    WIPO--has had problems with that, and we have raised them.
        I actually had a hearing in February 2016 on that. We have
    written letters. It's come to very little outcome. Your
    thoughts on that?
        It seems to me that for sanctions to work it's not just the
    countries but it's also U.N. agencies that need to be in
    compliance. Your thoughts?
        Mr. Scarlatoiu. Chairman Smith, I believe you are referring
    to an agent called Tabun that the North Koreans were actually
    licensed to produce. It's one component needed in the
    production of chemical weapons, I believe.
        Our organization, the Committee for Human Rights in North
    Korea, has focused more on the humanitarian arm of the U.N. and
    one point that we have tried to make time and time again is
    that U.N. agencies involved in humanitarian operations inside
    North Korea should be fully cognizant of human rights concerns,
    of the U.N. Commission of Inquiry report, the recommendations
    of the U.N. Commission of Inquiry and apply a human rights up
    front approach to their work.
        And I will take the liberty of giving a very quick example.
    Last year, we documented Prison Camp Number 12 in Chongo-ri,
    North Hamgyong Province. In the aftermath of Typhoon Lionrock
    the U.N. was conducting a fact finding mission in the vicinity
    of the camp.
        We managed to acquire satellite images through the cloud
    cover proving that the camp had been affected by the flooding
    caused by Typhoon Lionrock.
        We urged U.N. agencies to include the most vulnerable
    segments of the population, especially prisoners, in the fact
    finding missions and humanitarian operations in North Korea.
        For example, the World Health Organization has a program
    called Health in Prisons applied throughout the developing
    world. Why not seek ways to apply some of these programs to
    North Korea?
        One positive aspect here, although action on the ground is
    lacking is that senior U.N. officials were very responsive,
    including, at the time, the Deputy Secretary General, and in
    his most recent report that U.N. Special Rapporteur on North
    Korean human rights, on human rights in the DPRK. Mr. Thomas
    Ojea Quintana did specifically mention the need to address the
    most vulnerable in North Korea including prisoners.
        Mr. King. Thank you for what you did, having a hearing to
    focus on the U.N. problem. U.N. agencies are like any big
    bureaucracy where you have people who aren't aware of what is
    going on in other places.
        They are, however, very attentive to what the U.S. Congress
    has to say and I think your efforts are extremely useful in
    dealing with these kind of problems with U.N. agencies not
    being aware of sanctions and so forth.
        Thank you.
        Ms. Scholte. Ditto.
        Mr. Smith. Ms. Scholte, you said it's worse now under Xi
    Jinping. Ms. Hee said it's worse under Kim Jong-un. It seems
    like it's been worsening since 2011.
        Dr. King, if I could go back to your testimony where you
    said it reached a high. Now it's gone down. It's less than
    1,500 last year. It could be even worse this year.
        How much worse can it get before the Security Council--
    well, they may never do it because of the veto. But I am a
    great believer in hybrid courts.
        I've been pushing for 4 years that there be a special court
    for Syria and Iraq. Got a resolution passed. Had a series of
    hearings on it.
        We had the former prosecutor for Sierra Leone testify at
    two of those hearings and, of course, they put Charles Taylor
    behind bars for 50 years. So, it shows that hybrid courts get
    results.
        There are imperfections but they do get results. The ICC
    often doesn't. So I think your point was well taken, Mr.
    Scarlatiou.
        There are other alternatives and they have been put on the
    table. I think we should pursue that aggressively. We still may
    run into the Security Council problem. But even the effort
    might have some mitigating effect on the Chinese barbaric
    behavior and, of course, the parallel barbaric behavior by the
    North Korean Government. Your thoughts on that?
        Mr. King. The International Bar Association held a
    proceeding a couple weeks ago looking at what information there
    is about crimes against humanity being committed in North
    Korea.
        They concluded that there is sufficient solid evidence on
    10 of 11 crimes against humanity to hold individuals in North
    Korea responsible.
        I think we need to focus on this idea of accountability. I
    think we need to go as far as we can. I think it's useful to
    have the Security Council debating and discussing the human
    rights situation in North Korea.
        Even if we aren't going to get a vote out of the Security
    Council, it raises the issue to that level. It puts pressure on
    the North Koreans and we need to continue that effort. I think
    what you were trying to do with Syria is something that would
    be worth trying to do with North Korea.
        Ms. Scholte. I just--I met a young woman who escaped with
    her 14-year-old daughter. This was about 7 years ago. And she
    told me that when her 14-year-old daughter got repatriated--
    they got--they got to China, they got arrested. Her 14-year-old
    daughter got--they got separated.
        The 14-year-old daughter got repatriated and beaten to
    death by a border guard. And when I heard that story, I was so
    horrified. How could any man beat a 14-year-old girl who was
    simply trying to have a better life?
        But at that point, I started pushing the South Korean
    Government to convene a tribunal because at that point the
    South Korean Human Rights Commission had already collected 532
    cases of these types of abuses where--and the people knew, gave
    testimonies.
        But when they put that report together they never released
    the names, and I think one thing was really encouraging that
    Ambassador King was involved with during President Obama's
    administration was starting to name names--naming names of the
    perpetrators of these crimes, which I think is so important.
        We are part of the U.N. Commission--I am sorry, the U.N.
    Commission of Inquiry that's pushing for the ICC referral.
        However, we can't wait, and even if he gets prosecuted at
    the ICC and the ICC determines he was committing crimes against
    humanity, well, he could still be dictator.
        It might not have any impact. So we have got to look at
    other ways and I've always believed that hybrid court,
    whatever, there has to be a procedure to start talking about
    these issues because I think we need to put people in the
    regime on notice.
        They've got to wake up every morning, the people that are
    keeping this regime going--they have to wake up every morning
    with two choices: Total devotion and loyalty to Kim Jong-un or
    having their brains splattered along with their family by anti-
    aircraft weaponry. I mean, that's what they face every day.
        So how do you get that to stop? You've got to tell them,
    ``You're going to be held accountable for your crimes.'' But at
    the same time, you've got to reach out to them through programs
    like Freedom North Korea, through the defectors, because there
    are defector elites who are reaching out to other elites and
    showing them that there is another alternative--there is
    another option.
        But I think proceeding on these kinds of legal courts is
    absolutely critical to put pressure on them to show them they
    are going to be held accountable.
        There has to be a way to stop that border guard from
    beating to death a 14-year-old girl when his name gets
    mentioned in a South Korean tribunal. But also Bob cited the
    International Bar Association. They did release their report
    this morning, which found that the crimes against humanity
    meaning that almost every single statute--there was just one
    they were lacking the evidence. But the evidence is there of
    the crime against humanity being committed by Kim.
        Mr. Smith. Let me ask you, and maybe it'll be the last
    question. You've been very generous with your time. How would
    you rate the effectiveness of the Human Rights Council toward
    China?
        I remember when it was called the Human Rights Commission.
    I traveled frequently to Geneva, would try to lobby people on
    particular issues including China. I actually went to a China
    press conference and asked some questions about human rights
    and they shut it down.
        They were so unwilling and so brittle when it comes to
    criticism. They just ended the press conference because they
    didn't want to answer serious questions about human rights.
        I've met with Prince Zeid, the high commissioner for human
    rights. I am deeply disappointed, and I would appreciate your
    thoughts, one way or the other. Maybe you think he's doing a
    good job.
        When it comes to Israel they are obsessed with holding
    Israel to account for things, for instance, settlements.
    Security Council Resolution 2334 makes it criminal--illegal for
    certain settlements, and Abbas is now petitioning the ICC to
    open up a case for prosecution.
        Are you kidding me? Then you have gross violations of human
    rights being committed every day with complicity by the Chinese
    but also with complicity with the Chinese. And, there is very
    little--a statement made here or there but it's never offensive
    in terms of trying to hold them accountable.
        I think it makes the credibility of the Human Rights
    Commission suspect. They cannot be politicized. We know that
    there are rogue nations who make a beeline to sit on the
    council in order to run interference to their own
    accountability being held and they work in tandem with each
    other to keep the rogue nations not focused upon.
        So if you could speak to that and particularly to Prince
    Zeid, because his black list is coming out very shortly of
    companies doing business with entities in what they falsely
    call occupied territory, and I say falsely because I believe
    it's false.
        But it's a very, very bad omen, I think, for the council to
    be so politicized and then look askance when it comes to China.
        Your thoughts?
        Mr. King. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to
    deal with the Human Rights Council. On the one hand, they have
    a very high-minded goal and objective. On the other hand, the
    realities of politics are constantly getting in the way.
        Israel is one of the most troubling of issues because the
    votes are in the wrong place and it becomes a very difficult
    problem.
        The one bright light with the Human Rights Council is the
    treatment of North Korea. North Korea has not sat on the Human
    Rights Council; it has never been elected a member of the
    council.
        North Korea has gone through the Universal Periodic Review
    process. They've been under some pressure because of that
    process and there have been some indications of improvement in
    noncontroversial areas like assistance for people with
    disabilities and that kind of thing.
        We have been able to get out of the Human Rights Council
    every year since 2004 a tough strong resolution that is
    critical of North Korea. We have been able to refer things to
    the General Assembly. We have been able to get tough strong
    resolutions.
        As far as North Korea Policy is concerned, the Human Rights
    Council is a good instrument. As far as Israel is concerned,
    it's not. [Laughter.]
        Mr. Smith. I mean, even today, December 11th, Prince Zeid
    has called for North Korea to be referred to the ICC.
        Mr. King. Yes.
        Mr. Smith. That is easy lift. That's not all that hard to
    say that.
        Mr. King. No. [Laughter.]
        Mr. Smith. But what about its accomplice, China? And I
    appreciate your thoughts, too.
        Mr. King. The issue with China is more complicated. China
    is a permanent member. It can veto anything of substance in the
    Security Council.
        Mr. Smith. But his recommendation--I mean, they can reject
    it----
        Mr. King. Yes.
        Mr. Smith [continuing]. But the credibility and gravitas
    that the high commissioner would bring to saying, ``Hey, you
    too, China.''
        Mr. King. Yes.
        Mr. Smith. ``We are not letting you off the hook. You are
    complicit in these horrific crimes.''
        Mr. King. Yes. It's a tough one. You're a politician. These
    countries are dealing with politics. We are making progress. We
    are not there yet.
        I think we need to continue the effort and we need to
    continue to criticize--the way you and other colleagues in
    Congress have done--to put pressure on the U.N. agencies for
    what they are not doing.
        But I think we should also be careful not to throw the baby
    out with the bath. Praise them for what they've done in areas
    like what they've done on North Korea. I think we have made
    real progress on that.
        Mr. Smith. Before we go to Greg, we ought to remind
    everyone and begin assembling lists. We just recently passed
    the Frank Wolf International Religious Freedom Act. I did
    sponsor it, and it calls for designated persons, people that we
    can hold to account.
        The Magnitsky Act and, certainly, the Global Magnitsky Act
    gives us an incredible tool on a vast array of human rights
    issues to say so and so, so and so, so and so, and begin honing
    in on the individuals who commit atrocities all over the world.
        We got the CPC designation, both China and North Korea,
    under the Religious Freedom Act. So sanctions can be levied
    there. And then, of course we know that, we have the
    Trafficking Victims Protection Act sanctions, Tier 3, where
    they can be levied there as well.
        So we have got all these tools. Let's use them.
        Please, Greg.
        Mr. Scarlatoiu. I fully agree with Ambassador King that
    there is serious tension between the lofty goals, ideals, and
    principles and standards that the U.N. Human Rights Council is
    supposed to uphold and the politicization of the council.
        It's highly politicized, of course, as a human rights NGO
    dealing with the U.N. and U.N. agencies. My colleagues and
    board members know that it's extraordinarily frustrating many
    times--most of the time to deal with U.N. agencies and yet, as
    Ambassador King said, if there is one success story of the U.N.
    Human Rights Council that was the establishment of the U.N.
    Commission of Inquiry through a resolution that didn't even go
    to a vote. It was passed by consensus by all 47 members of the
    Human Rights Council.
        So North Korea is, after all, the saving grace of the Human
    Rights Council, if I may say so, and we do hope to continue to
    see good action on North Korean human rights issues.
        Mr. Smith. Ms. Scholte.
        Ms. Scholte. Yes. I think we need tremendous reform at the
    U.N. I think it's, in some cases, it's a joke. The Human Rights
    Council--why can't we have a Human Rights Council where the
    membership is based on the countries observing the Universal
    Declaration of Human Rights--just a few of them?
        I mean, let's reestablish what the Universal Declaration of
    Human Rights stood for and let's have, you know, you can be on
    the Human Rights Council if your country, well, maybe--maybe at
    least 60 percent.
        How about just 60 percent, and I'll give you a D minus to
    be on the council. It's ridiculous what's happening. And while
    it's a bright light on North Korea, I am not sure that it's
    done anything. It's done nothing, actually, to improve the
    lives of the people of North Korea.
        The lives of the people of North Korea have not improved.
    We just know more about it. That's all that's happened. We just
    know how much they are suffering. The reality is it's because
    of the people of North Korea, not because of the dictatorship
    and certainly not because of anything that the U.N. has done.
    So it may be a good mouthpiece on North Korea but it's failing
    on the human rights and suffering of so many other people.
        Mr. Smith. You know, I thought in your prepared testimony
    you made an excellent point as to how we should honor the fact
    that the North Koreans themselves, whether they be in country
    or in South Korea or anywhere else, are really making the
    difference and we need to get behind them as never before in
    those efforts. Maybe you might want to elaborate on that.
        Ms. Scholte. Well, why don't I show them the portrait? They
    smuggled it back in. They smuggled it back into the hearing.
        This is an example, okay. Once again, this was made in
    Pyongyang. This is the response to messages broadcast on Free
    North Korea Radio, smuggled out at great risk. Two brothers
    took 3 months to make this.
        If they had been caught making this, they and their
    families would have been executed. So this is just a testament
    to the importance of reaching out to the people of North Korea.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you.
        And what Ms. Scholte is not saying is that there is a
    portrait of herself and one of Chairman Ed Royce as well.
        Is there anything else you would like to add before we
    conclude? And again, thank you for your insights. It gives us a
    lot of actionable things to do and I always appreciate that.
        Mr. King. Thank you for this hearing.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you, Ambassador King.
        Mr. Scarlatoiu. Thank you for the hearing. Thank you for
    your dedication and the inspiration that you provide to all of
    us.
        Mr. Smith. You inspire us. Believe me.
        And Ms. Scholte, thank you.
        Ms. Scholte. Thank you.
        Mr. Smith. The hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 4:41 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]

                                A P P E N D I X

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             Material Submitted for the Record

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       Material submitted for the record by the Honorable Karen Bass, a
            Representative in Congress from the State of California

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