    [House Hearing, 115 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                        PRIVATE SECTOR LUNAR EXPLORATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                             SUBCOMMITTEE ON SPACE

                  COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                               SEPTEMBER 7, 2017

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 115-27

                                   __________

     Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

           Available via the World Wide Web: http://science.house.gov

                                  __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    27-174PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2017

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                  COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY

                       HON. LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas, Chair
    FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma             EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas
    DANA ROHRABACHER, California         ZOE LOFGREN, California
    MO BROOKS, Alabama                   DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois
    RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois             SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
    BILL POSEY, Florida                  ALAN GRAYSON, Florida
    THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              AMI BERA, California
    JIM BRIDENSTINE, Oklahoma            ELIZABETH H. ESTY, Connecticut
    RANDY K. WEBER, Texas                MARC A. VEASEY, Texas
    STEPHEN KNIGHT, California           DONALD S. BEYER, JR., Virginia
    BRIAN BABIN, Texas                   JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
    BARBARA COMSTOCK, Virginia           JERRY MCNERNEY, California
    BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado
    RALPH LEE ABRAHAM, Louisiana         PAUL TONKO, New York
    DRAIN LaHOOD, Illinois               BILL FOSTER, Illinois
    DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida              MARK TAKANO, California
    JIM BANKS, Indiana                   COLLEEN HANABUSA, Hawaii
    ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  CHARLIE CRIST, Florida
    ROGER W. MARSHALL, Kansas
    NEAL P. DUNN, Florida
    CLAY HIGGINS, Louisiana
    RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina
                                     ------

                             Subcommittee on Space

                         HON. BRIAN BABIN, Texas, Chair
    DANA ROHRABACHER, California         AMI BERA, California, Ranking
    FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma                 Member
    MO BROOKS, Alabama                   ZOE LOFGREN, California
    BILL POSEY, Florida                  DONALD S. BEYER, JR., Virginia
    JIM BRIDENSTINE, Oklahoma            MARC A. VEASEY, Texas
    STEPHEN KNIGHT, California           DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois
    BARBARA COMSTOCK, Virginia           ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado
    RALPH LEE ABRAHAM, Louisiana         CHARLIE CRIST, Florida
    DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida              BILL FOSTER, Illinois
    JIM BANKS, Indiana                   EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas
    ANDY BIGGS, Arizona
    NEAL P. DUNN, Florida
    CLAY HIGGINS, Louisiana
    LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas

                               C O N T E N T S

                               September 7, 2017

                                                                       Page
    Witness List.....................................................     2

    Hearing Charter..................................................     3

                               Opening Statements

    Statement by Representative Brian Babin, Chairman, Subcommittee
      on Space, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S.
      House of Representatives.......................................     4
        Written Statement............................................     6

    Statement by Representative Ami Bera, Ranking Member,
      Subcommittee on Space, Committee on Science, Space, and
      Technology, U.S. House of Representatives......................     8
        Written Statement............................................    10

    Statement by Representative Eddie Bernice Johnson, Ranking
      Member, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House
      of Representatives.............................................    12
        Written Statement............................................    13

                                   Witnesses:

    Mr. Jason Crusan, Director, Advanced Exploration Systems, NASA
        Oral Statement...............................................    14
        Written Statement............................................    17

    Mr. Bob Richards, Founder and CEO, Moon Express, Inc.
        Oral Statement...............................................    23
        Written Statement............................................    25

    Mr. John Thornton, Chief Executive Officer, Astrobotic
      Technology, Inc.
        Oral Statement...............................................    35
        Written Statement............................................    37

    Mr. Bretton Alexander, Director of Business Development and
      Strategy, Blue Origin
        Oral Statement...............................................    46
        Written Statement............................................    48

    Dr. George Sowers, Professor, Space Resources, Colorado School of
      Mines
        Oral Statement...............................................    53
        Written Statement............................................    55

    Discussion.......................................................    63

                 Appendix I: Answers to Post-Hearing Questions

    Mr. Jason Crusan, Director, Advanced Exploration Systems, NASA...    80

    Mr. Bob Richards, Founder and CEO, Moon Express, Inc.............    87

    Mr. John Thornton, Chief Executive Officer, Astrobotic
      Technology, Inc................................................    92

                        PRIVATE SECTOR LUNAR EXPLORATION

                                  ----------

                          Thursday, September 7, 2017

                      House of Representatives,
                                  Subcommittee on Space
                   Committee on Science, Space, and Technology,
                                                       Washington, D.C.

        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:05 a.m., in
    Room 2318 of the Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Brian
    Babin [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Babin. The Subcommittee on Space will now come to
    order.
        Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare
    recesses of the Subcommittee at any time.
        Welcome to today's hearing titled ``Private Sector Lunar
    Exploration.'' I recognize myself for five minutes for an
    opening statement.
        Exploration, particularly space exploration, is inherently
    and inescapably a matter of vital national strategic
    importance, both today and in years and decades to come.
    Because space exploration is so strongly linked to a wide range
    of current and future national interests, it is easy for us, as
    lawmakers, to fall into the habit of thinking of space as a
    strictly government operation and effort.
        But not only can space involve the private sector, it must
    involve the private sector. Fully incorporating newly explored
    domains into our sphere of economic influence will ensure U.S.
    leadership in the future. Moreover, space is so vast and
    immense that it is foolish to propose that we can meaningfully
    plumb its depths without resources, talent, and drive that are
    so abundant in America's private sector.
        There's no guarantee that the private sector will be
    successful. To the contrary, there will certainly be failures
    but the failures and successes should be determined by the free
    market. For this same reason, the private sector should not be
    artificially subsidized by the government. We should not leave
    our nation's space exploration future purely to the whims of
    market uncertainties, and we should not bet our nation's future
    in space on any one company. As we've seen so often in space,
    companies, and even entire sectors, come and they go. Our
    leadership in space is far too important to subject it to that
    kind of risk and uncertainty.
        So while we will begin our discussion here today with
    NASA's testimony to provide context and help frame our
    deliberations, our intent is to understand not just how
    government-led exploration of space is proceeding, but where
    the private sector will take us and how these public and
    private actors will work together for their mutual benefit.
        This hearing gives us an opportunity to understand what has
    worked well in the past, as well as what we could do better in
    the future. NASA has a vast array of tools at its disposal:
    traditional contracts, grants, cooperative research and
    development agreements, various funded and unfunded Space Act
    Agreements, and anchor tenancy agreements. All of these tools
    offer unique advantages and risks. Careful consideration should
    be given to which tool is used in order to ensure that the
    taxpayer is protected, and that the government does not corrupt
    the market. Ultimately, I hope that we can better understand
    if, how, and when the Moon can be integrated into human
    economic activity.
        The Moon is the closest source of raw materials to Earth.
    In particular, the lunar poles may contain vast quantities of
    water, an invaluable resource for space exploration. Water is
    not only necessary to support the life of astronauts and crew;
    it can also be broken down into hydrogen and oxygen, which are
    excellent propellants.
        Industrial, financial, and technical giants like Carnegie,
    Rockefeller, JP Morgan, and Edison dominated the economic and
    industrial landscape of the late 19th century America. Advances
    in information technology in the late 20th century brought us
    Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon.
        Will space be the next sector to lead economic growth? I
    don't know. If space becomes a home and workplace for humanity,
    if space can become part of our sphere of economic influence,
    then someday, perhaps in the far future, we will see those
    industries take root and grow.
        But we cannot compel such an ambitious outcome, but by
    careful and thoughtful consideration we can, hopefully and
    humbly, enable it. At the very least we should not stifle it. I
    hope that today's discussion will help inform all of our
    thinking about the future of private sector exploration of
    space.
        [The prepared statement of Chairman Babin follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Babin. And now at I'd like to turn to the
    gentlelady from--the gentleman from California, Dr. Bera.
        Mr. Bera. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And actually before I
    begin, I want to express my full support and sympathies to both
    you, your constituents in your district, and the employees at
    the NASA Johnson Space Center, and all those that were affected
    by Hurricane Harvey as well as those being affected by
    Hurricane Irma. Our thoughts and prayers go out to them, and
    they have our full support and you have our full support
    through the long recovery.
        Chairman Babin. Thank you.
        Mr. Bera. It also does emphasize the important work of this
    Subcommittee as well as the Full Committee in better
    understanding Earth sciences, better understanding weather
    changes, and making sure that we do have the best forecasting
    equipment and satellites that are out there.
        With that, I want to welcome the distinguished panel today,
    and thank you for calling this important hearing on lunar
    exploration plans and proposals.
        Forty-eight years ago, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin
    touched down on the Moon, imprinting mankind's first footsteps
    on the Moon's surface. When astronauts Eugene Cernan and
    Harrison Schmitt lifted off the lunar surface on December 14,
    1972, who would have imagined that they would be the last
    humans to visit the Moon for nearly a half-century and
    counting?
        Now, we don't know exactly when humans will return to the
    lunar surface, but what is clear is that we're at the doorstep
    of a renaissance in Moon exploration. Soon, the Moon may
    entertain many visitors in the form of robotic spacecraft and
    rovers from many countries, and some, as we will hear today,
    will be owned and operated by commercial entities. Innovative
    technologies that will enable testing and demonstrations may
    one day lead to routine cargo and perhaps even routine human
    flights to and from the Moon and help promote increased
    economic activity in space. However, let's also not forget that
    the Moon remains an important scientific research center and
    the importance of finding that public-private nexus.
        A 2007 National Academies report identified several
    scientific priorities for Moon exploration including the
    exploration of the lunar poles. According to the report, the
    South Pole Aitken Basin, in particular, is a priority for
    further scientific exploration because ``it is the oldest and
    deepest observed impact structure on the Moon and the largest
    in the Solar System.'' And, you know, that exploration, as the
    Chairman touched on, you know, if in fact we confirm the
    presence of lunar ice there, can have huge impact, and
    certainly as we think about the Moon as a potential secondary
    launch site as we go and further explore into deep space, it's
    incredible important. But also as we look at this pristine
    laboratory, we want to make sure that, you know, we are
    balancing the research needs--if I think about Star Trek and
    the prime directive--and that we are not actually introducing
    other organisms or anything else, that may actually disrupt our
    science.
        So, I look forward to hearing about the commercial
    entities, the potential of that nexus of the commercial sector,
    the scientific community, NASA all working together, and I
    think this is an incredibly important time for both lunar
    exploration but also for deep space exploration, and the
    importance of this Committee at this particular time I think is
    incredibly important.
        A few questions that I hope to hear being addressed in
    today's hearing are, what are the market drivers for commercial
    efforts to explore the Moon? Who are the projected customers
    for planned private lunar exploration services and what
    services will be provided to those customers? How is NASA
    currently collaborating with the private sector on exploration
    of the Moon and are the current models of partnership working
    well? And are there opportunities for the private sector to
    collaborate with the science community on their exploration
    plans?
        I'm looking forward to hearing, and I think it'll be very
    interesting.
        With that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Bera follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Babin. Thank you.
        And now I would like to recognize the Ranking Member of the
    Full Committee for a statement, Ms. Johnson.
        Ms. Johnson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good
    morning, and welcome to our witnesses. This hearing on private
    sector lunar exploration, I think is important.
        While not a substitute for our governmental space programs,
    there are many innovative ideas for potential non-governmental
    roles in space emerging. Private sector innovation can capture
    the spirit of opportunity and engage and inspire the
    development of scientific and technical talent. It has the
    capacity to support commercial interests as well as
    governmental space activities, where appropriate.
        This morning, we will hear about one example of potential
    commercial space activities--private sector lunar exploration.
    To date, only governmental entities have explored the Moon, but
    the private sector is getting interested in the Moon too.
        It's no surprise that the Moon and its vicinity are of
    interest to a growing number of private sector entities and
    other nations. The Moon provides a potential testing ground for
    human exploration systems, operations, and activities. It
    harbors resources that could potentially be used to support
    lunar surface operations or exploration beyond the Moon, and
    some would argue that it even offers a destination for
    potential space tourists. I look forward to hearing from our
    witnesses about their plans for private sector lunar
    activities, NASA's current role in those efforts, and about
    both the opportunities and challenges that lie ahead for the
    private sector in carrying out their plans.
        In addition, while not the focus of this hearing, it is
    important to note that the Moon has long been a body of
    scientific study, through U.S.-led and international lunar
    science missions, including from samples collected and returned
    on the Apollo missions. To that end Mr. Chairman, as we discuss
    private sector plans for lunar exploration, it is important
    that we understand the potential impacts of such activities on
    scientific priorities related to the Moon.
        Before I close, I want to extend my thoughts and prayers to
    those in Houston and the surrounding areas and, especially, Mr.
    Chairman, to you for being a stalwart in an area that was
    devastated with the storm. I want to include the NASA
    employees, contractors, and partners of the Johnson Space
    Center. Their steadfast commitment to ensuring the safety of
    the ISS crew and continuation of the James Webb testing during
    Harvey's devastating rains exemplifies the professionalism and
    commitment they give our country's space program every day,
    even during times of extreme duress.
        I thank you, and I yield back.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Johnson follows:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Babin. And we sure thank you for your comments
    there.
        Now let me introduce our witnesses. Our first witness today
    is Mr. Jason Crusan, Director of Advanced Exploration Systems
    at NASA. He holds bachelor's degrees in electrical engineering
    and physics, a master's degree in computer information systems,
    and is currently a candidate for a doctorate in engineering
    management at George Washington University. Thank you for being
    here today.
        Our second witness today is Mr. Bob Richards, Founder and
    CEO of Moon Express. He also chairs the Space Commerce
    Committee of the Commercial Spaceflight Federation and serves
    on the Board of the Space Foundation. Mr. Richards studied
    aerospace and industrial engineering at Ryerson University,
    physics and astronomy at the University of Toronto, and space
    science at Cornell University. Thank you for being here.
        Our third witness today is Mr. John Thornton, CEO of
    Astrobotic Technology. Mr. Thornton led development of
    Astrobotic spacecraft including Red Rover, Polaris, and the
    Artemis lander, and the Griffin lander. He holds both a
    bachelor's of science and a master's of science degree in
    mechanical engineering from Carnegie Mellon University. Thank
    you for being here.
        And then our fourth witness today is Mr. Bretton Alexander,
    Director of Business Development and Strategy at Blue Origin.
    He has served as a Senior Policy Analyst for Space Issues in
    the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy under
    both Presidents Bush and Clinton as well as President of the
    Commercial Spaceflight Federation. Mr. Alexander holds both a
    master's degree and a bachelor's of science degree in aerospace
    engineering from the University of Virginia. Good to see you
    this morning, too.
        Our fifth witness today is Dr. George Sowers, Professor of
    Space Resources at Colorado School of Mines.
        Mr. Perlmutter. Colorado. You heard that.
        Chairman Babin. Thank you, Ed, appreciate that. I think
    they heard that, though.
        Dr. Sowers has also worked for Martin Marietta, Lockheed
    Martin, and the United Launch Alliance. Dr. Sowers holds a
    bachelor's of science in physics from Georgia Tech as well as a
    Ph.D. in physics from the University of Colorado. He is also a
    Fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and
    Astronautics.
        So I now recognize Mr. Crusan for five minutes to present
    his testimony.

                TESTIMONY OF MR. JASON CRUSAN, DIRECTOR,

                   ADVANCED EXPLORATION SYSTEMS, NASA

        Mr. Crusan. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee,
    thank you for the opportunity to appear today to discuss NASA's
    support of private sector exploration of the Moon.
        NASA is working to foster commercial use of space and
    engagement with the broader domestic and international space
    community. This effort will build on the progress NASA
    commercial partnerships have been using to develop spacecraft
    and rockets capable of delivering cargo and soon astronauts to
    low-Earth orbit.
        Its capabilities could also enable new science and
    exploration missions of interest to the larger scientific and
    academic communities and can fit well with concepts being
    discussed for human missions in cislunar space. In turn, they
    have the potential to provide important enabling competencies
    as NASA expands human presence into deep space.
        NASA lunar science has helped map the Moon in incredible
    detail, determine the presence of water ice, and understand the
    Earth's satellite's irregular gravity field. NASA lunar
    missions are increasing global knowledge and understanding of
    the origins of our solar system, informing future exploration
    efforts of the Moon and other planetary bodies, and bringing
    the agency closer to having infrastructure and technologies
    needed to explore future destinations like Mars.
        As part of the agency's overall strategy to conduct deep
    space exploration, NASA has been supporting the development of
    commercial lunar exploration. In 2014, NASA introduced an
    initiative called Lunar CATALYST, and the purpose of this
    initiative was to enable development of U.S. private sector
    robotic lunar landers that can deliver payloads to the lunar
    surface using U.S. commercial launch capabilities. Through
    CATALYST, NASA has provided partners with in-kind contributions
    including technical expertise, access to test facilities,
    software and loaning of equipment, and the initial flights of
    these commercial lunar landers may begin as early as 2018.
        As a result, one or more of our partners would be able to
    market lunar payload delivery services for small instruments
    and technology demonstrations. Future commercial lunar
    transportation capabilities could also support science and
    exploration objectives such as sample return, geophysical
    network deployment, resource utilization, and technology
    advancements.
        The agency is currently assessing possible robotic mission
    concepts, acquisition approaches, and associated payloads for a
    potential series of lunar cargo missions to the surface of the
    Moon starting as early as 2018.
        In support of these objectives, NASA issued a Request for
    Information seeking ideas from industry for NASA participation
    in existing or future commercial missions to the Moon. The
    agency is interested in assessing the availability of
    commercial delivery services from Earth to the lunar surface as
    early as next fiscal year.
        NASA continues to pursue other lunar exploration efforts as
    well. NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, or LRO, has produced
    the highest quality global topographic map of any planetary
    body and continues to share its data openly with the public.
    The Korea Pathfinder Lunar Orbiter mission, South Korea's first
    mission in exploration, will include NASA's ShadowCam, a highly
    sensitive optical camera that will peer into the regions that
    may hold volatiles, including water. NASA plans to include four
    Lunar Research CubeSats as part of the 13 CubeSats that are
    launching on Exploration Mission 1, the first launch of the
    Space Launch System. And lastly, NASA has been studying a
    potential Resource Prospector surface mission that would take
    the next step in understanding in the harvesting of resources
    and regolith, specifically volatiles, particularly in the lunar
    polar regions.
        So NASA is committed to expanding partnerships with the
    U.S. government agencies as well as academic, industrial and
    entrepreneurial and international communities. NASA's
    collaborative efforts for fostering innovation in a growing
    space industry are continuing to transform capabilities and
    accelerate technologies to achieve national strategic goals.
        Mr. Chairman, I'd be happy to respond to any questions you
    or the other Members of the Subcommittee have. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Crusan follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Babin. Thank you very much, Mr. Crusan.
        I now recognize Mr. Richards for five minutes to present
    his testimony.

                     TESTIMONY OF MR. BOB RICHARDS,

                  FOUNDER AND CEO, MOON EXPRESS, INC.

        Mr. Richards. Thank you, Chairman Babin, Ranking Member
    Bera and Members of the Subcommittee. It is an honor to be
    invited to speak with you today about the efforts of U.S.
    commercial space industry in pioneering new business models for
    lunar exploration and development.
        Only a few decades ago, Earth orbit was an economic
    frontier and the singular domain of government space agencies
    today. The private sector satellites generated billions of
    dollars of commerce annually in a mature, well-established
    economic sphere that impacts our everyday lives and has
    immeasurably improved life on Earth.
        Now commerce looks beyond Earth orbit to a lunar frontier,
    which has also been the realm of governments but over the last
    decade, a combination of exponential technology and private
    sector investment has brought the Moon within reach of the
    commercial sector.
        Today, I address you as Founder and CEO of Moon Express, a
    privately funded commercial space company created to seek and
    unlock the resources of the Moon through a progressive series
    of commercial robotic missions starting with our maiden voyage
    scheduled to launch next year.
        I founded Moon Express with dotcom pioneers Naveen Jain and
    Barney Pell in 2010 as an enduring business, which starts with
    the creation of new space technologies and low-cost missions
    designed to capture and generate new markets for robotic lunar
    exploration. We are a Silicon Valley-born and -backed
    enterprise with investors ranging from billionaires to venture
    funds to celebrities. We began our life at the NASA Ames
    Research Park in Mountain View, California, and in 2015 we
    relocated the company to Cape Canaveral on Florida's Space
    Coast where we have licensed the historic Launch Complexes 17
    and 18 from the U.S. Air Force and are currently refurbishing
    these facilities for our spacecraft, engineering tests, and our
    mission control.
        Our vision is to open up the lunar frontier for everyone
    with turnkey payload data and mission surfaces to the Moon for
    a wide range of customers globally including governments, NGOs,
    commercial enterprises, universities, and consumers.
        To do so, we have developed a flexible, scalable robotic
    explorer system that can reach the Moon and other destinations
    in the solar system from Earth orbit. After years of quiet
    development, we unveiled our robotic exploration architecture
    on July 12th just down the hall from this hearing room ranging
    from our MX-1E scout-class micro lander to our frontier-class
    MX-9 supporting lunar sample return. We have contracted for up
    to five launches from Rocket Lab USA aboard their electron
    rocket, which achieved a remarkable level of success during its
    maiden flight last May, and we expect to become operational
    later this year. Our first lunar scout mission in 2018 will
    utilize the electron together with our MX-1E explorer to
    deliver a diverse manifest of scientific and commercial
    payloads to the lunar surface. This will be followed by
    expanded capabilities and ongoing missions. Our manifest is
    fully booked for our maiden mission, and we will be offering
    payload accommodations on our future ongoing missions planned
    at the rate of about one per year, but we are also prepared to
    scale up our systems and increase our flight rate to meet
    rising market demand and opportunity.
        We have a big vision but it wouldn't be possible without
    the help we received from NASA. Moon Express has been honored
    to be partnered with NASA since the inception of our company
    through reimbursable Space Act agreements with both NASA Ames
    and Marshall Spaceflight Center. We were able to invest in and
    make use of NASA lunar lander test vehicles that allowed us to
    advance our own spacecraft control software. In 2014, we were
    selected as one of three industry partners with NASA for the
    Lunar CATALYST program established to spur commercial cargo
    transportation capabilities to the surface of the Moon.
    Supported by Lunar CATALYST and the Kennedy Space Center, we
    conducted test flights of our own lunar lander test vehicle at
    the shuttle landing facility, beginning a long-term
    collaboration with KFC, and that continues today. Thanks to our
    partnership with NASA, we're well on our way to building our
    maiden launch mission next year, which is in various stages of
    fabrication, assembly and test.
        In the big picture, it's been 45 years since the United
    States left the surface of the Moon to the legacy of Apollo and
    a generation past. Moon Express is working to reopen the
    American frontier and the Moon and redefine what is possible
    for new generations.
        The American flag is returning to the surface of the Moon
    next year, not because of a government program but because of
    private sector investments into low-cost rockets and smart
    robotic explorers that are collapsing the cost of lunar access.
    Together, we will begin a new democratized program to make the
    Moon accessible to entrepreneurs.
        We are at the cusp of a glorious adventure. We aspire to
    the stars. Mars beckons as a second home for humanity, and the
    Moon is our gateway.
        Thank you for the time and the opportunity to present this
    testimony.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Richards follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Babin. Thank you, Mr. Richards.
        I now recognize Mr. Thornton for five minutes to present
    your testimony.

                    TESTIMONY OF MR. JOHN THORNTON,

                        CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,

                      ASTROBOTIC TECHNOLOGY, INC.

        Mr. Thornton. Chairman Babin, Ranking Member Bera, and
    Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to
    discuss our nation's future on the Moon.
        Incredibly, America has not returned to the lunar surface
    since the Apollo program ended in 1972. This has put our nation
    at a disadvantage as other nations like China have landed
    increasingly ambitious robotic missions on the surface of the
    Moon.
        As we approach the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11 landing,
    our nation has a unique opportunity to answer a growing global
    demand for a reliable, proven means to access the lunar
    surface. Some nations are beginning to fly with the Chinese but
    it's not too late. By supporting our nation's entrepreneurs,
    America can once again lead the world back to the Moon.
        Thankfully, with the strong technical support of NASA,
    especially through the leadership of Jason Crusan's AES Office,
    American industry is restoring access to the Moon with small
    robotic lunar landers.
        Founded in the Rust Belt city of Pittsburgh in 2007,
    Astrobotic is leading the way to reestablish American access to
    the Moon with small-scale cargo delivery. We have assembled a
    world-class team of partners including NASA, United Launch
    Alliance, Airbus, and DHL. Together, we are building the
    Peregrine lunar lander, a privately developed spacecraft
    capable of delivering up to 265 kilograms of cargo to the Moon.
    In August, I celebrated ten years of building Astrobotic and
    the lunar market. Today, I am proud to say that Astrobotic is
    leading the world in lunar sales and market development with 11
    deals representing six nations and a lunar pipeline of over 115
    deals worth more than $1.8 billion. Astrobotic is flying its
    first mission to the Moon in 2019, the 50th anniversary of the
    Apollo 11 landing.
        Peregrine is not a precursor or a demonstration. It is
    right-sized from the beginning to address the existing lunar
    market. At the historic price of $1.2 million per kilogram,
    Peregrine enables activities like resource development,
    scientific investigation, technology demonstration, and
    exploration.
        The future is bright but tenuous for sustainable commercial
    lunar cargo delivery. The government would be wise to leverage
    and augment existing international lunar payload demand rather
    than overwhelm it with an oversupply of large landers that have
    no sustaining commercial demand for the foreseeable future.
        Small landers like Peregrine stand ready to support
    upcoming NASA crewed exploration missions on SLS Orion to the
    deep space gateway by enabling telerobotic access to the
    surface. Small lander missions are our first step toward one
    day reestablishing human presence on the Moon and launching a
    cislunar off-world economy.
        Much of Astrobotic's market progress is owed to a proven
    technical track record and world-class partnerships. For
    instance, Airbus is providing engineering support and expertise
    from ESA programs. Throughout partnership with United Launch
    Alliance, we will launch as a secondary payload from Cape
    Canaveral on America's reliable Atlas V launch vehicle,
    continuing a proud history of successful lunar missions
    including LRO, LCROSS and GRAIL.
        NASA is providing access to their engineers and facilities
    through the highly successful Lunar CATALYST program, and we
    are encouraged by steps NASA has taken this year including
    issuing RFIs for small lunar payloads and lander services. With
    CATALYST insight into our service, Astrobotic believes now is
    the time for NASA to join our payload manifest.
        We appreciate the leadership of House CJS Appropriations
    Subcommittee Chairman Culberson, Ranking Member Serrano, and
    Members of the Committee in providing $30 million in the fiscal
    year 2018 appropriations bill for a small robotic lunar lander
    demonstration mission. We are hopeful the Senate will follow
    the House's lead, and this funding will be included in a final
    omnibus, which could allow NASA to send payloads to the Moon.
    We encourage this Committee to lend its full support for this
    program in the appropriations process this fall.
        As this Committee plans for the next NASA authorization, we
    urge you to authorize a frontier-class lander services program
    for small lunar landers within the launch services program
    similar to the Venture-class program. This would provide a
    contractual mechanism for NASA to easily purchase lunar payload
    services.
        Mr. Chairman, we are proud to be leading the Moon shot from
    America's Rust Belt. This is a special moment for our company,
    our industry, our region, and our nation. Small lander services
    like Astrobotic have a proven market with sales, world-class
    partners, and credible spacecraft. With support from Congress,
    we can ensure American lunar market leadership and NASA's
    return to the Moon.
        I look forward to any questions you may have.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Thornton follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Babin. Thank you very much, Mr. Thornton.
        I now recognize Mr. Alexander for five minutes to present
    his testimony.

                  TESTIMONY OF MR. BRETTON ALEXANDER,

       DIRECTOR OF BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND STRATEGY, BLUE ORIGIN

        Mr. Alexander. Chairman Babin, Ranking Member Bera, and
    Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to
    speak before you today about private sector lunar exploration,
    a topic that we're very excited about at Blue Origin.
        Before I begin, I'd like to extend our thoughts and support
    to our friends at Johnson Space Center and the broader Texas
    community as they recover from Hurricane Harvey and to those at
    Kennedy and throughout Florida in the path of Hurricane Irma.
        Blue Origin was founded to bring about a future where
    millions of people are living and working in space. We are
    committed to building the next generation of space
    transportation and are prepared to bring significant private
    capital to partner with NASA for return to the lunar surface.
        It's time for America to return to the Moon, this time to
    stay. Enabling NASA and U.S. commercial activities on the Moon
    is a key step on the path to long-term exploration of the solar
    system.
        Imagine driving from DC. to Los Angeles nonstop. You'd have
    to carry with you all of your fuel, food, and other necessities
    with you, which would make for a difficult trip. The Moon
    provides the resources and proximity to enable human
    exploration of deep space destinations like Mars, making it the
    ideal proving ground and first step.
        For example, the lunar South Pole's Shackleton Crater
    contains critical resources for fuel and power generation while
    also offering a nearby proving ground for deep space
    exploration technologies.
        All of this potential has not gone unnoticed. Many
    commercial entities and nations have plans for an ambitious
    decade of lunar exploration. The United States should be the
    leader in this worthy endeavor.
        Blue Moon is a space transportation and lunar lander system
    that can cost-effectively deliver more than 10,000 pounds of
    cargo from Earth to the lunar surface. This equates to about
    five Mars Curiosity Rovers, or two Ford F-150 trucks. When you
    can cost-effectively and precisely soft land large amounts of
    cargo on the Moon, there are few limits on what you can do,
    everything from science rovers to resource discovery and
    utilization mission to surface habitats is made possible.
        Blue Moon is scalable, repeatable, and based on proven
    technologies. Optimized to fly on NASA's Space Launch System,
    Blue Moon also scales to fly on many different launch vehicles.
    Just pick the launch vehicle and go. Smaller payloads, such as
    NASA's Resource Prospector, can use an Atlas V rocket, while
    larger payloads can use Blue Origin's New Glenn launch vehicle
    or NASA's SLS.
        Blue Origin's proven technology provides a fast path to a
    U.S. lunar landing capability for medium to large payloads.
    Blue Origin's BE-3 is the first new liquid hydrogen-fueled
    rocket engine to be developed for production in over a decade.
    It has been proven during five launches and landings of our New
    Shepard vertical landing booster. The BE-3's efficiency, deep
    throttling and relight capabilities all translate into more
    useful payload mass landed on the Moon.
        Precision landing is also key, and Blue Origin has
    demonstrated this capability with the same New Shepard vehicle
    five times in less than a year. Both technologies reduce
    development time and risk.
        Blue Origin has made and continues to make significant
    investments in the foundational technologies needed for Blue
    Moon. As part of a public-private partnership with NASA, we are
    willing to invest further in developing this capability. We
    invite NASA to partner with Blue Origin using innovative
    contracting mechanisms that require private sector investment
    and cost-sharing. NASA's Commercial Cargo and NextSTEP programs
    represent successful models that require partners to bring
    money and technologies toward achieving shared goals. These
    partnerships allow the country to meet big objectives more
    rapidly, while also promoting economic development and U.S.
    strategic leadership in space.
        A NASA Reauthorization Act should include provisions that
    prioritize landing on the lunar surface in the near term. It
    should establish a regular cadence of cargo missions and
    include a strategy for the Moon as a stepping-stone for
    expanding human exploration in our solar system.
        We are on the verge of a new space age, one defined by
    multiple international competitors focused on getting to the
    lunar surface. This Congress has the opportunity to ensure
    America's continued leadership in space. The Moon should be the
    near-term focus of human spaceflight beyond LEO as a necessary
    step toward exploration of the solar system, and Blue Origin is
    willing to significantly invest in partnership with NASA to
    accelerate America's return to the Moon.
        Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Alexander follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Babin. Thank you, Mr. Alexander. I appreciate
    that.
        I now recognize Dr. Sowers for five minutes to present his
    testimony.

               TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE SOWERS, PROFESSOR,

               SPACE RESOURCES, COLORADO SCHOOL OF MINES

        Dr. Sowers. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee,
    thank you for the opportunity to appear today to discuss
    private sector lunar exploration.
        The subject of today's hearing is of great interest to me.
    It's part of a larger topic, one that is truly revolutionary,
    that of bringing the resources of space into the economic
    sphere of humankind.
        There have been two major economic revolutions in human
    history: the Agricultural Revolution of 10,000 years ago, which
    gave birth to human civilization, and the Industrial Revolution
    of 300 years ago, which gave rise to the tremendous increase in
    human well-being and prosperity we enjoy today.
        Space resources will be the third major economic revolution
    and will usher in an era of unprecedented prosperity and
    flourishing. Furthermore, the development of space resources
    will enable us to save the Earth as we unchain human progress
    from the constraints of Earth's ever-diminishing resources.
        Compared to Earth, the resources available in space are
    virtually infinite. Consider the power output of the Sun is 10
    trillion times the power consumption of humans. Just one
    metallic asteroid 500 meters in diameter contains more
    platinum-group metals than have ever been mined.
        Finally, we now know that the solar system contains
    abundant quantities of water. If you have water, you have
    hydrogen and oxygen, which are the most efficient chemical
    propellants known. Water is the oil of space.
        We know these resources exist. Bringing them within the
    economic sphere of humankind requires the machinery of a robust
    space economy, and that means harnessing the power of the free
    market. Competition in the free market spurs innovation,
    leading to efficiency and growth. But the foundation of the
    free market is the consumer, the ordinary citizen, the
    taxpayer. The space economy must deliver value to consumers on
    Earth. Hence, the first place to begin is cislunar space.
        The goal then of private sector exploration of the Moon is
    economic development. Extraction and utilization of lunar
    resources will be cornerstone of that development. The Moon is
    rich in resources that will drive the cislunar economy but the
    resource that would be most valuable in the near term is water
    processed into propellant. It happens that water is abundant at
    the lunar poles, billions of metric tons per pole by some
    estimates. A year ago, while at United Launch Alliance, I
    became the first person to offer to buy propellant in space. I
    set up price for propellant bought either at the lunar surface
    at $500 a kilogram or in high-Earth orbit like the first Earth-
    Moon Lagrange Point at $1,000 per kilogram. At these prices,
    the cost of any activity beyond low-Earth orbit becomes
    dramatically reduced. For example, the cost to deliver mass to
    the surface of the Moon will be reduced by a factor of three.
    The cost of a Mars mission will be similarly reduced. So you
    can see that the water on the Moon is an immensely valuable
    resources. Strategically, we should view the poles of the Moon
    as the next Persian Gulf.
        I've described the cislunar economy as a free market but
    the operation of a free market requires government to establish
    a framework of rights, enforce contracts, and to provide
    security. These things are part of the machinery of a robust
    space economy and are essential to reduce business uncertainty
    and enable private sector investment.
        Beyond the minimal, there's much the government can do to
    stimulate the creation of the cislunar economy. First is to
    invest in the basic science to characterize the resources and
    develop the technologies to exploit them. One approach would be
    for NASA to establish a space resources institute, partnering
    with both academia and industry, domestic and international, to
    solve some of the basic problems common to all.
        Second is to participate in the cislunar marketplace. I set
    a price for propellant based on purely commercial
    considerations, but having NASA as an additional customer
    purchasing propellant for, say, a Mars mission would
    significantly improve the business case and attract more
    competitors, driving more innovation and lowering costs even
    further. That's the virtuous circle of the free market.
        Finally, NASA could invest through public-private
    partnerships in, for example, lunar water mining operations.
    This approach has proven successful with Commercial Crew and
    Cargo, and works well when the risks are too great for the
    private sector to take on by itself.
        In conclusion, humankind is on the cusp of a third major
    economic revolution that promises to bring unprecedented
    prosperity and well-being for all. The first step is the
    creation of the cislunar economy with important roles for both
    the private sector and government.
        Thank you again for inviting me to testify, and I look
    forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Dr. Sowers follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Babin. Thank you, Dr. Sowers.
        I'd like to thank all the witnesses for your testimony. The
    Chair now recognizes himself for five minutes for questions.
        Mr. Crusan, how could NASA leverage private sector
    technologies, products and services on future exploration
    concepts such as the potential deep space gateway or the
    hypothetical deep space transport? What elements are better
    suited to partnerships, and what aspects are more appropriate
    for a government-owned and operated effort?
        Mr. Crusan. Mr. Chairman, we've been analyzing those exact
    cases that you've been asking about. We have our Next STEP
    initiative related to the gateway activities and how we
    construct and actually build that critical infrastructure, and
    we're trying to find that proper balance between government
    objectives and commercial objectives, both in the creation of
    that fundamental infrastructure but also in the utilization of
    that infrastructure as well.
        Lunar CATALYST now with the potential to buy lunar landed
    services, are another extension of that instead of building
    technologies that are only for our own use here at NASA but
    building technologies that are fundamental to the industry
    demand that they need as well. So through CATALYST, we've been
    sharing the vast wealth of knowledge we have at NASA, sharing
    it with the U.S. industry openly to allow them to make the
    maximum best use of that. In every one of these endeavors, we
    have to tread carefully, though, to find that proper balance,
    and that's why we've been so deliberate about what we've been
    doing.
        Chairman Babin. Well, then that'll lead into the next thing
    I'd like to ask you about, the potential pitfalls of leveraging
    private sector investments in space. Are there any areas about
    which we should be cautious when it comes to partnerships for
    lunar exploration?
        Mr. Crusan. Yes, so in a couple areas of alignment of
    incentives. So expanding the marketplace is a function of
    commercial demand and government use as well, so trying to get
    a proper balance and making sure that the government isn't
    expecting a higher level of performance that isn't commercially
    sustainable in the marketplace and getting that balance
    correct. So buying services at a rate which the industry is
    going to utilize for non-NASA use as well is one of the strong
    pitfalls that I would advise.
        Chairman Babin. Okay. And then to Mr. Richards, Thornton
    and Alexander, I'm pleased to see such a diversity of lunar
    landing capabilities being developed by your three companies,
    and it shows how the United States continues to lead the world
    in developing innovation and affordable solutions. Can each of
    our industry witnesses briefly explain what makes their lander
    unique and different from the others and so the Committee can
    better understand the differences and the capabilities between
    your services? We'll go with you, Mr. Richards, first.
        Mr. Richards. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So Moon Express's
    approach has been to establish a family of vehicles that begins
    small and can grow with partnership with NASA, not presuming a
    dependency, but looking at the long tail of the market where we
    can do for lunar access what CubeSats did for access to low-
    Earth orbit. We believe there's a big market here. So we're
    starting with a micro lander that can go in a very low-cost
    launch vehicle. When we started Moon Express, we were looking
    at missions that might cost $100 million or more to get to the
    Moon. With a combination of the current technology and the low-
    cost vehicles that are coming on the market, we can do initial
    precursor missions for under $10 million of our cost.
        But those can scale up, and our modularity is key. So like
    rockets and especially being the manufacturer take advantage of
    modular systems and stages don't get changed over time, our
    basic propulsion model scales up into larger and larger lander
    systems that can reach the Moon and deliver materials back.
        Chairman Babin. Thank you. Mr. Thornton?
        Mr. Thornton. Thank you. So we are developing the Peregrine
    lunar lander. From the get-go, we are market-focused, so we say
    okay, what's the market out there for payloads, what sizes is
    necessary, and then we design a lander and the scale that's
    appropriate for that. So what we have determined is 265
    kilograms of capacity serves the majority of the existing
    market for payload delivery. Our first mission to the Moon
    flies that commercially viable craft right from the get-go.
    It's a single-set secondary vehicle that flies on a United
    Launch Alliance launch vehicle to low-Earth orbit and then we
    fly the rest of the way to the Moon. Once on the surface of the
    Moon, we become the local utility so we provide power, we
    provide communications for payloads that come with us. Some
    payloads can stay attached to the lander. Some payloads can
    deploy and drive across the surface and use our WiFi on the
    surface to talk back to Earth. So the lander itself is designed
    to be a simple, robust system. It's single stage. There's no
    separations, very few mechanisms to actually move on the
    spacecraft, so we're all about simple reliability for robust
    delivery, and what we have found from our customers is that
    customers are very sensitive to any changes, substantial
    changes in spacecraft. The customers around the world tell us
    that if you change your spacecraft configuration mission to
    mission that they're going to think of that next launch as a
    demonstration launch and they want to make sure that it's a
    proven capability. So that's why we have a single spacecraft
    designed from the get-go to address the commercial market, and
    we believe that it's affordable enough to get that first flight
    demonstrated and to capture a large portion of the
    international market.
        Chairman Babin. Thank you.
        Now we'll go to Mr. Alexander.
        Mr. Alexander. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Blue Moon is
    designed as a large lander so it is designed to take more than
    10,000 pounds to the lunar surface when launched on an SLS, a
    NASA SLS rocket. So that vehicle, that same spacecraft lunar
    lander can be flown on a variety of different launch vehicles
    ranging from 1,000 pounds of payload delivered to the surface
    all the way up to more than 10,000 pounds. So a single design
    does the in-space transfer as well as the landing down to the
    surface and carries with it that large payload capability. So
    it is designed to enable other missions. It's designed to
    enable NASA to preposition logistics for future human missions,
    to provide resource utilization missions, delivery and access
    to the surface, or to provide landers like Resource Prospector,
    a way of actually getting to the surface. It's repeatable,
    scalable, and based on proven technologies.
        Chairman Babin. Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate the
    witnesses.
        Now I'd like to recognize the Ranking Member from
    California, Mr. Bera.
        Mr. Bera. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        So if I think about when I was a kid, probably six or seven
    years ago, and thinking about what I thought was the coolest
    Apollo mission when they sent up the lunar rover, the Moon
    buggy, and you think about how space was done then. It was NASA
    doing the launch vehicle, NASA doing the landing vehicle, in
    some ways NASA then doing the research vehicle, the Moon buggy.
    I want to make sure I'm thinking about this correctly. Let's--
    and maybe this is a question for Mr. Crusan. Let's say NASA is
    thinking about something like the Moon buggy or a research
    vehicle. They can now in this new world of space travel say
    okay, let's do some competitive bidding, see if Moon Express is
    the right landing vehicle or, you know, Astrobotic or Blue Moon
    is the landing vehicle we want to use. They can also then say
    okay, what launch vehicle do we want to use? Do we want to do
    an Aerojet Rocketdyne rocket or a Blue Origin rocket or a
    SpaceX rocket, or ULA rocket? And so we're creating this
    competitive marketplace where NASA in some ways could be the
    customer. Am I thinking about that correctly?
        Mr. Crusan. Absolutely. So the Apollo reference is an
    interesting one in that during the development of Apollo and
    many times we were the entire--we were the user of the entire
    industrial base, and in fact, a lot of the industrial base
    didn't even exist at the time, and you think about that
    difference in that we had to pay the entire percentage of all
    the non-reoccurring costs in order to get a capability into an
    existence, and we were the only user of that at the end of the
    day so we also had to sustain it. What you now see are merging
    space economy activities, both launch vehicles and
    communication satellites and Earth observation work that's
    going on now where now we can be a leveraged buyer of those
    capabilities, especially in low-Earth orbit and geosynchronous-
    type environments that we have, and then we can then stretch
    those commercial capabilities to start applying towards
    exploration initiatives, and it comes down that there's--we
    have a mixed environment of traditional development with the
    high-risk, high-reliability needs that we have, and with
    commercial services and commercial technologies that we can
    apply into that environment that we need to execute the
    national mission. So at the same time, then we don't have to
    sustain the entire industrial base anymore either, and there's
    a very productive space sector that's growing.
        Mr. Bera. And to the folks in the commercial sector, maybe
    Mr. Richards, Mr. Thornton, Mr. Alexander, are we looking at
    this--we're creating a competitive economy here where it could
    be NASA as a customer but it could also be academia or others
    as a customer. Is that how you're looking at your business
    model?
        Mr. Richards. For Moon Express--thank you--we certainly
    are. We love the idea of NASA as a customer. They've certainly
    been a great technology partner. We're building on the
    shoulders of giants and working shoulder to shoulder with
    giants, so that's great, but we're looking at a global
    marketplace, and bringing the cost accessible to where
    university endorsements, I mean, we've got kids sending
    CubeSats into low-Earth orbit. We see the long tail of the
    market a great leverage for us to begin our lunar business and
    be able to scale up on the way, and I'm sure my friends will
    agree with me that competitiveness rocks, and we're very much
    in favor of it.
        Mr. Bera. Same thing--same thoughts for Mr. Thornton and
    Mr. Alexander?
        Mr. Thornton. Yes, I'd agree with the sentiments. We think
    of the market for lunar services as global. We've identified
    115 payloads worldwide that want to fly to the surface of the
    Moon, and that's a mix of government, international
    governments, domestic, small and big. We think of the smaller
    space agencies as the non-vertical space agencies. They need a
    little help because they don't have their own spacecraft, they
    don't have their own launch vehicles. We can enable that. One
    of our customers is the Mexican space agency, a perfect example
    how we are enabling their access to the surface of the Moon,
    and then we also see a mix of commercial interests as well.
        Mr. Bera. And same thing with Blue Origin?
        Mr. Alexander. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a large
    market out there of international, government and commercial
    activities, but I do also think that NASA should be leading
    this effort. The United States should be leading the world in
    returning to the Moon in terms of utilizing the Moon's
    resources and so there's a large role for NASA to play in that.
        Mr. Bera. Great. Excellent.
        Dr. Sowers, in your opening testimony you raised some
    interesting questions. Obviously there's a value of that water
    on the Moon and that ice on the Moon, and I think, you know, it
    raises questions. Is this going to be the Wild West? Whoever
    gets to that water first, do they own that water? I mean, we're
    talking about another planetary body. So, who owns that water?
    What country can claim that water, or is it our entire planet
    Earth? And then I would imagine there's some urgency that this
    body ought to be thinking about those questions. You know,
    certainly how do you create the framework that addresses and
    creates some certainty for folks that are going to go out there
    and explore, creates that market but then also doesn't stifle
    innovation. And I'd just be curious as you're thinking through
    those questions, what things we ought to be thinking about as a
    body.
        Dr. Sowers. That's a very important question. You know, I
    view the space economy as a free market but the free market has
    to have constraints and controls. There also has to be a system
    of rights. So you raise the question, who owns it. You know,
    there needs to be the establishment of a framework of, if you
    will, property rights for space so that if a company invests
    in, you know, developing a resources that they can return--reap
    a return on that investment. You know, those are important.
    Enforcement of contracts, you know, how do we make sure that,
    you know, if some company buys something from a country, you
    know, that those contracts can be enforced. Then you have also
    the issue of physical security. You know, if there's wealth in
    space, eventually there's going to be pirates in space, and so
    kind of have to have a way of ensuring the security of the
    enterprises that take place out there.
        Mr. Bera. Great. Thank you.
        Mr. Chairman, it looks like we might have some work ahead
    of us.
        Chairman Babin. Absolutely. We'll have another Texas oil
    boom out there but it'll be water this time. Thank you very
    much.
        I now recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Posey, who
    is trying to get out of here to get his district ready.
        Mr. Posey. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Babin. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Posey. Mr. Richards, Thornton and Alexander, you
    mentioned that you got help and encouragement from NASA. I
    wonder in 30 seconds or less each if you can briefly tell me
    what kind of assistance you got from NASA.
        Mr. Richards. We've been partnering with NASA since the
    beginning with technology development so we've been given
    access. Sometimes we--most of the time we have to pay for that
    access but more recently with Lunar CATALYST, based on a mutual
    exchange, access to technology, test facilities, expertise,
    software, things that have displaced otherwise capital costs
    that we would've had to use investment money for.
        Mr. Posey. Okay. Thank you.
        Mr. Thornton. NASA has been a great partner of Astrobotic
    for a very long time. Most notably, the CATALYST program has
    been fantastic for us. It's taking NASA's best spacecraft
    engineers and landing engineers and fusing together with our
    technology to create a great vehicle. We just had our
    preliminary design review. We had 20 NASA people in the room
    including another dozen people on the phone looking over our
    whole system and helping us out. It's a first time for us so
    it's great to have the best in the business part of the
    mission.
        Mr. Posey. Thank you.
        Mr. Alexander. Blue Origin does not currently have a
    partnership with NASA on lunar lander activities. However, we
    do have a long history of cooperating with NASA on propulsion
    and other technologies. We've worked very well with NASA, and
    we appreciate their technical expertise and look forward to a
    partnership with NASA on the Blue Moon lunar lander.
        Mr. Posey. Okay. Mr. Crusan, I appreciate that NASA is
    trying to privatize what it can here and keep a long-term, I
    hope, focus on Mars. We've kind of helped incubate, move along,
    assist and encourage these companies. Have we made any
    agreements with them yet? I mean, how are we going to utilize
    them?
        Mr. Crusan. Yes. To date, we've done a no-exchange-of-funds
    Space Act Agreement where we haven't exchanged any funds for
    that but just providing, as we said, the support services that
    you heard from the partners here, and what we are now looking
    at doing is actually buying landed delivery services in the
    next fiscal year here of actually buying the first ability to
    land small payloads, and that's in our plans and our budget
    submit that we did this year.
        Mr. Posey. Okay. And tell me a little bit more about those.
        Mr. Crusan. Yeah, so we're talking initially about small
    landed services so small payloads of everything from scientific
    context to instruments to do single-point measurement related
    to volatiles to small technology demonstrations. This is a sign
    of our confidence of--growing confidence in the commercial
    industry, and managing a risk without getting too large or too
    costly payloads for us on the first maiden flights. So it's
    that balanced risk approach of us giving confidence in them but
    also not risking large endeavors at this point at NASA. So it's
    that balancing act that we're doing with them as we've done
    with Commercial Cargo and such when were in the development
    phases for those.
        Mr. Posey. Okay. Have you signed any contracts yet?
        Mr. Crusan. No, we've not. The RFI was the first step
    towards that.
        Mr. Posey. Okay. And when do you anticipate we would be
    doing contractual agreements?
        Mr. Crusan. We're preparing for the solicitation as we
    speak, basically was informed by the Request for Information
    that was done only a couple months ago.
        Mr. Posey. Okay. That's good.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairman Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you.
        Now I'd like to recognize the Ranking Member of the full
    Committee from Texas, the gentlewoman, Ms. Johnson.
        Ms. Johnson. Thank you very much.
        Let me express my appreciation for your interest,
    motivation and enthusiasm for what you are doing, and hope that
    it'll inspire the next generation of thinkers for the future.
        I want to ask you who you anticipate or do you have any
    ideas of who your customers will be from the private sector
    service for vacationing or whatever? How do you anticipate
    seeking them?
        Mr. Richards. So that's--thank you for that question. We
    already have customers so we've been marketing for a number of
    years now. An example is, we'll be delivering a lunar telescope
    for a private customer starting with a precursor, then a large
    system to the south pole of the Moon in 2019, and this is a
    nice nexus of science, of commerce, of private investment
    capabilities with a global scientific foundation, but led by a
    U.S. entrepreneur. So that's one of the examples of how science
    and commerce can intertwine. Our maiden mission has a full
    manifest, and we're marketing into our future missions now.
        Ms. Johnson. How do you anticipate determining the cost for
    services?
        Mr. Thornton. So first for us, it starts with the customer.
    We have customers the world over that are interested in flying,
    and I think that's a really notable important thing because we
    started ten years ago, and 7, eight years ago, there were no
    customers. It was too new. People thought it was a little
    crazy, frankly, but all good ideas start as crazy ideas and
    then they become reality. So we have 115 customers interested,
    everything from space agencies to commercial organizations,
    even down to universities and people that are just looking to
    inspire folks. We have a time capsule from Japan that is
    collecting the dreams of children from Asia, and they have more
    than 100,000 kids signed up sending their dreams. So we have
    all sorts, shapes and sizes of payloads attached.
        In terms of the pricing and how to address that, it's about
    what can cover our costs fundamentally. The majority of our
    cost is the launch cost, so as the costs of the launch vehicles
    come down, that will drive our prices down as well. Part of the
    reason that we build the same spacecraft again and again is
    we're looking to get that cost efficiency improved even more,
    but so far our price at $1.2 million per kilogram is accepted
    by the market and we already have numerous deals at that price
    point.
        Ms. Johnson. That sounds good. You know before now, there's
    been lots of thought of attempting to retrieve or save
    artifacts from the Moon. Have you considered retrieving any of
    the artifacts or have you given that any thought?
        Mr. Thornton. So we haven't started looking at retrieving
    artifacts. We think of what's on the Moon is memorials,
    permanent memorials, and one day, museums and potentially even
    national parks to go visit on the service of the Moon. Each one
    of our missions that landed a man on the Moon and all the
    precursors that led up to it, that's a really important part of
    history. So we intend to certainly have a keep-out zone and
    make sure that we don't land too close to it because it is
    possible to damage those if you land too close, but we think
    about it as a memorial for all time, and we think of our early
    landers the same way. We're essentially sending a snapshot of
    humanity for our first mission, and it's going to be a sampling
    of people all over the world. We have six nations flying with
    us on our first mission and many more that are interested in
    coming with us. So we're all about making the Moon accessible
    to the world, and I think those first landings will be
    monuments to just that.
        Ms. Johnson. You know, several years ago I was trying to
    find a vehicle to try to preserve some of the debris and
    artifacts, and the only place I could find was under the Parks
    Act. And so when I introduced the resolution, the news had it
    that I was attempting to establish a park on the Moon. I was a
    little embarrassed, but young people in high schools were very
    concerned and very enthusiastic about the possibility of
    establishing a park on the Moon, which I didn't have in mind at
    all. But what it reminded me of is how we do stimulate the
    young mind to think forward. So I encourage you to continue to
    think forward. Just don't send us the bill. Thank you.
        Chairman Babin. Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
        Now I'd like to recognize the gentleman from Florida, Dr.
    Dunn.
        Mr. Dunn. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It's certainly
    exciting to have such an august panel and talking about a space
    economy that's genuinely prosperous. That's just so exciting to
    be in space.
        Let's start with a lightning round of questions real quick
    if I can. What is the number one thing that you think is the
    most important to the United States as a whole, number one
    thing, just sort of a lightning round and we'll go right down
    the panel. We'll start with Mr. Crusan.
        Mr. Crusan. For me, it's continued human presence in space.
        Mr. Richards. And expanding human presence in space with
    the United States in the lead of it.
        Mr. Thornton. It's making the Moon accessible to the world
    and U.S. leadership in doing so.
        Mr. Alexander. I would agree that it's U.S. leadership in
    space, and I think the Moon is the right focus for the near
    term.
        Dr. Sowers. It's creating that space economy and developing
    the propellant resources on the Moon.
        Mr. Dunn. Outstanding. So great answers.
        Again, just because we're, you know, the Congress of the
    United States, Mr. Crusan, how do you think this affects
    national security?
        Mr. Crusan. So with space, you have resources. With
    resources come different demands and different agendas. So I
    think from a national security point of view, the understanding
    of fundamental resources that exist in our nearest neighbor is
    incredibly important for us. It can help influence our human
    spaceflight architectures for sending humans further out into
    space. So first order of understanding what is there and what
    is its value to us as the United States.
        Mr. Dunn. Great, great.
        Mr. Thornton, you mentioned you had 115 customers? Okay. So
    what's the difference between your commercial customers and
    your government customers?
        Mr. Thornton. Sure. Just to clarify, we have 115 payloads
    in our pipeline, so it's our sales pipeline, but the difference
    that we have, about half of that is government, big and small
    around the world. Half of that is commercial. About half of the
    commercial part is new startups, and then the other half are
    established organizations. DHL, who is a partner and sponsor of
    ours, is an example of that commercial side. They see the
    innovative shipping to the Moon is an extension of their global
    shipping service and they're happy to be a part of our mission.
        On the small size, people are seeing the capability of
    flying to the surface of the Moon as a means to potentially
    open their own businesses. We're seeing that with human ashes.
    We're seeing that--there's groups that are interested in having
    races on the surface of the Moon, create like a NASCAR
    experience from the Moon. We've got groups that--we just signed
    a payload that wants to create a first laser communication node
    from the surface of the Moon, and that's a huge step because
    that is two orders of magnitude more bandwidth than we would
    have otherwise. So radio is about 100, 200 KBPS so it's like a
    little bit more than a 56K modem, and then a gigabit per
    second, that's faster than most home internet connections. So
    you could have virtual reality experiences and HD video and
    pictures streaming back from the Moon. So it really stands to
    have a fascinating and immersive experience for people back
    here on Earth.
        Mr. Dunn. Outstanding. Anything to add to that, Mr.
    Richards or Mr. Alexander?
        Mr. Richards. Well, the excitement is genuine about the
    potential for the markets. We've got our heads down in the hard
    job right now of actually proving we can land on the Moon, and
    getting the technology right, it's a very hard thing to do, and
    only three superpowers have ever done it. So while having great
    confidence that these amazing markets are going to open up,
    we're focused right now on getting it right, and not having all
    our eggs in one basket. We have purchased several launches.
    Although we look across the spectrum of emergent and existing
    launchers agnostically, anybody going our way to Earth orbit,
    we'd be happy to buy a ride if it's at the right price, but
    we're after collapsing the cost of access to the Moon and other
    destinations after Earth orbit.
        Mr. Alexander. I would just add that, you know, returning
    to the Moon is a worthy endeavor. There are a lot of resources
    there as we talked about to bring into the economic sphere of
    humanity, and to do that, we need to go back in a fairly big
    way. So we have designed a lander that can take a lot of those
    capabilities to the surface of the Moon and eventually support
    human return to the Moon. It's important to do from a U.S.
    leadership perspective. It's important to do from an economic
    perspective but it requires a concerted effort.
        Mr. Dunn. We're going to run out of time here. I have more
    questions than I could possibly ask in half an hour, but let me
    go back to Mr. Bera's question because I thought that was a
    great one, and I didn't really hear an answer.
        I'm going to ask Dr. Sowers, who owns the water, or who
    should own the water? You got around that when he asked you
    last time.
        Dr. Sowers. Yeah, I think the people that discover it and
    develop it should own it. I mean, that's a ``should.'' You
    know, I think we need to make sure that we can establish a
    framework, you know, regulatory or legal framework that makes
    that the case.
        Mr. Dunn. So pirates in space. I love that.
        Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairman Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you.
        Now we're going to go to the gentleman from Virginia, Mr.
    Beyer.
        Mr. Beyer. Mr. Chairman, thank you, and Mr. Chairman, I'd
    like to start with an announcement, talking about pirates in
    space, that we had Andy Weir here, who wrote The Martian, last
    year, who's a rock star. He was sitting right where Dr. Sowers
    it. And yesterday they announced his new book, Artemis, which
    is about a smuggler on the Moon, and it comes out November
    14th, so that'll be fun.
        First question really is for Mr. Crusan. In Mr. Thornton's
    testimony, he talks about NASA authorization, Congress and NASA
    on authorizing Frontier class lander services similar to the
    Venture class launch services. What's your perspective on that,
    and how does that fit in with NASA's vision?
        Mr. Crusan. So it's actually right in line with what we
    were thinking about doing here now is we're proceeding towards
    actually buying landed services. That is in essence what he's
    suggesting. It's just a fundamental of what scale do you go to
    at what time, and we want to make sure that we're buying
    services that are kind of on the same scale as industry is
    growing, so just matching that growth rate and having the
    government as a customer, not the sole provider or purchaser of
    services. That's the balance that we've been seeking from the
    NASA side.
        Mr. Beyer. Great. Thank you.
        Mr. Crusan, Ranking Member Johnson asked a question about
    artifacts. As you develop the Lunar CATALYST program, has there
    been discussion of the U.S. government artifacts on the Moon
    and any steps to protect and preserve them?
        Mr. Crusan. Yeah, in fact, actually, we did develop a
    standard and published it about interaction effects for any of
    the Apollo landing sites, and we worked collaboratively with
    the Google Lunar XPRIZE and actually many of the industry folks
    that are here at the table, and agreed on those standards and
    stand backs from those locations, making sure we don't have
    things like plume interactions of dust settling and covering up
    footprints, and we publically posted those standards out there,
    and industry has accepted those as guidance for their future
    missions that they want to conduct.
        Mr. Beyer. Great. Thank you.
        Mr. Richards, you've clearly been a visionary in this for a
    long time. One of the big debates in this Committee, we talked
    to the previous NASA Administrator and said what's the big
    picture, what's the constancy of purpose with NASA, and he said
    very simply, ``Mars.'' So one of the debates here has been, do
    we go directly to Mars or do we go to the Moon first, and
    there's a big division obviously within the space community
    about this. Is this development of the private sector Moon
    stuff a way to have our cake and eat it too?
        Mr. Richards. So it's all of the above. The Moon is not an
    off ramp to Mars, it's an on ramp to Mars, and by building--you
    know, to go to space to stay, it has to pay, so by building out
    infrastructure and capabilities in a cislunar economy, we can
    assure that a balanced partnership between the government and
    the private sector will learn how to live off-planet, we'll
    learn how to use the resources that are out there and that will
    dramatically lower the cost of going to Mars, and we'll learn a
    lot about our human condition, things that humans have never
    experienced being that far from Planet Earth. We can practice
    those things and learn a lot by practicing at the Moon.
        But it's not just the way to get to Mars. It's also a
    definitive destination of itself. I look forward to the
    generation of kids that'll look up and see lights on the Moon.
    You know, there'll be a completely different perspective of
    humanity as a spacefaring and a multi-world civilization.
        And I would like to comment on, you know, a number of
    questions and who owns the Moon and who owns the water. So the
    United States Congress--thank you--answered that question for
    us in 2015. We will talk about that, but what you said was,
    those who go peacefully under the auspices and with due regard
    to the international treaties will own what we peacefully
    obtain, and this is not an appropriation question, but also
    with Moon Express. Before I could assure our investors that we
    could blaze a trail to the Moon, I had to blaze a trail through
    the regulatory framework that would allow us to go there. So
    Moon Express in 2016, thank you to a number of members in this
    room, achieved the first ever U.S. authorization for private
    sector missions beyond Earth orbit and to the Moon under the
    terms of the Outer Space Treaty.
        Mr. Beyer. Great. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Alexander, I only have 30 seconds. One of the things
    you recommended was streamlining the licensing of commercial
    launches. How do we go about that process?
        Mr. Alexander. I think there's a couple of different
    issues. We have an issue with licensing of commercial launches,
    which currently the expendable launch vehicle framework that's
    been used for the last 20 years is sort of duplicated between
    the Air Force and the FAA, and those of us developing reusable
    launch vehicles like New Glenn are being licensed under an FAA
    regime and so there's reusable launch vehicles and so there's a
    little bit of duplicative work that has to be done with the FAA
    and the Air Force.
        I think separately to Bob Richards' comments there about
    licensing activities beyond launch and beyond Earth orbit that
    clarity that he responded or reflected in getting the first
    license for an activity on the Moon, finding a home for that
    within the U.S. government is also an important matter.
        Mr. Beyer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you.
        And now I'd like to recognize the gentleman from
    California, Mr. Rohrabacher.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I
    can't tell you how great it is to be here listening to people
    talk about a mission that we can accomplish. We sit here
    listening about people wanting to spend billions and billions
    of dollars on mission impossible, which is Mars, and I take it
    that right now we actually have the capability if we actually
    commit the resources to accomplish the mission to the Moon now.
    Isn't that correct? Yes or no?
        Mr. Crusan. Technically no objections.
        Mr. Richards. Absolutely the capability, and we would love
    to partner.
        Mr. Thornton. Absolutely. All systems go.
        Mr. Alexander. Yes, absolutely.
        Dr. Sowers. Yes.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay. Now, if we did that same question to
    people about well, are if we spend the billions of dollars for
    the Mars mission, are you sure we're going to be able to
    accomplish this? I don't think we would have anywhere near the
    same answers that we just got.
        And, you know, sometimes it is really difficult to get our
    country and our government and our bureaucracy even when it's
    at NASA to sort of focus on what we can do even though we're
    not doing it now, and I remember that when I first got here,
    which was a long time ago now in this very same Committee, that
    we had to force NASA into trying to do its mission around the
    Moon instead of around the equator of the Moon that we had to
    convince them maybe doing the orbit would be really important,
    and we actually had to force them to do it, and I will tell you
    because there were some visionaries who said there might be ice
    at the polar areas which we could use then as a very important
    component of future travel in space but also things we could do
    with hydrogen, et cetera. Let me note the person who made that
    argument to me originally is sitting right over there. His name
    is Jim Muncy, who is one of the real pioneers of--there you go,
    Jim. You get the credit, and he should get the credit because
    he was a visionary and could see the importance of making sure
    whether there was water there or not, and why always, always go
    around the equator and not around the polar areas to find out
    what was going on in the Moon.
        So let me just suggest that this is a very exciting
    potential and, you know, a lot of people--you know, half the
    world--I don't know if you know this--half the world when they
    look at the Moon, they see a man on the Moon, but the other
    half of the world sees what? A rabbit in the Moon. So when you
    look at the Moon next time, half the world doesn't even seen a
    man in the Moon. One thing that really worked for us when we
    were leading the world when it came to the Moon and space
    projects is what the world looked up and they looked at the
    Moon and they say there are Americans on the Moon. That
    impressed the entire world. It's time for us to impress the
    world again, the young people of the world and their own young
    people, and the potentials that you've talked about today are
    very exciting.
        Let me ask this. One of the things that I have advocated
    over the years when it comes to commercial space activities is,
    we should be encouraging them. Instead of giving them
    subsidies, we could give them tax breaks, and I have a piece of
    legislation that suggests commercial activity in space, zero
    gravity should be zero taxed. Would that type of approach be
    helpful to any of your operations in terms of making sure that
    the tax load that you wouldn't have to be carrying the burden
    of a tax load up to space with you, and just your thoughts on
    zero gravity, zero tax, right down the line.
        Mr. Richards. So quickly, as an interim measure, that
    certainly sounds attractive. You know, I believe that the first
    companies--the first trillionaire companies will be created
    through investments in space resources, so eventually that will
    be a tax base, but zero G, zero tax is great. You might also
    think about things like R&D tax credits for companies that
    typically invest in resource development, and it's that type of
    money that we're going to have to invest in space.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. But of course, if you think you're going
    to be successful and you're saying there's not going to be a
    capital gains tax on someone who invests in your company,
    that's pretty powerful.
        Mr. Thornton. I'd echo that it's certainly an interesting
    idea and certainly could help. The space is really hard. It's a
    very, very challenging environment, and building a business
    around space is doubly hard. So anything that can support that
    is certainly something we would support ourselves.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay.
        Mr. Alexander. I would echo what both of the gentlemen
    said, that, you know, revenue-based tax credits are helpful or
    tax rates, low tax rates, but also the R&D tax credits as well.
        Dr. Sowers. You know, I think all of these guys are going
    to say that, you know, tax breaks look good to them. I think if
    we're going to invest, I think, you know, maybe perhaps better
    leverage in our investment is some of the basic science and
    R&D. For example, you know, we need the guys with the mules and
    the picks on the Moon to see, you know, where the real
    motherlode of the ice is, and investment in some of those kinds
    of things which actually, you know, lowers investment risk for
    commercial operation maybe also something to consider.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Well, tax breaks as compared to subsidies
    give greater decision-making to the entrepreneur, and when you
    were talking about subsidies, which have to be approved from
    government officials, you have more bureaucratic decision-
    making, and I would just suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we unleash
    our entrepreneurs and we will be very pleased with what--our
    future generations will be very pleased with our
    accomplishments. Thank you very much.
        Chairman Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you.
        I now recognize the gentleman from Colorado, Mr.
    Perlmutter.
        Mr. Perlmutter. Thank you, Dr. Babin.
        Thank you all for your testimony today. I want to say to
    Dr. Sowers, I have my Colorado School of Mines tie on today,
    and I want to applaud you for leading the space resources
    department at the college, so thank you very much.
        I have two themes I'd like to talk about. One is property
    rights and the other is Mars. To my friend, Mr. Rohrabacher,
    we're going to get there by 2033.
        So let's start with property rights. Mr. Richards, I'd like
    to talk to you about that. And I think you're right. I think in
    2015, we gave a lot of comfort to entrepreneurs such as
    yourself and the other companies to get out there, but I would
    ask you so the section I think you're referring to is 51303,
    Asteroid Resource and Space Resource Rights, and it says
    ``shall be entitled to any asteroid resource or space resource
    obtained including to possess, own, transport, use and sell the
    asteroid resource or space resource obtained in accordance with
    applicable law including international obligations.'' So what
    is the applicable law? I mean, I don't want to be like a judge
    sitting up here but I think we need to--personally, I think
    we've got more work to do to provide the framework that Dr.
    Sowers was talking about.
        Mr. Richards. There's a lot more work to do. It's a global
    conversation, and I applaud the United States for taking the
    step forward of explicitly saying what I think was implicit in
    the Outer Space Treaty. There are a number of treaties but the
    Outer Space Treaty is the predominant one that dictates how
    humans are going to behave in space and to each other in space.
        So saying that, staying away from the question of property
    rights and that term, although I think we know what it means in
    this chamber, internationally is incendiary at this point, and
    in Moon Express's case, none of our investors said hey, make
    sure you have those property rights down or we can't invest.
    That wasn't the case. I believe that there will be an ongoing
    conversation. We don't have to answer all the questions today
    but the step that was taken was a very forward step that was
    very much appreciated.
        The next step for us of getting the authorization under
    that law and in due regard to the Outer Space Treaty, even
    though there wasn't a regulatory framework for us to even apply
    for a Moon Express mission, we created one out of thin air and
    with the support of many agencies received a one-time
    permission to do so. So this is still evolving, and it's--the
    onus is on private sector individuals and companies to behave
    properly and do things responsibly and think about them because
    it will be a global conversation.
        Mr. Perlmutter. And I guess my concern, and Mr. Thornton
    and Mr. Alexander, if you guys want to chime in, is just, Dr.
    Sowers talked about pirates, but we're talking about mining,
    we're talking about taking resources, so, is there title? Is
    somebody jumping somebody else's claim? Exactly how do you see
    this working? Because I think from our point of view as
    legislators, we need some help trying to beef this up a little
    bit so that we don't have jumping claims or piracy or whatever.
        Mr. Richards. It would be nice not to be in a reactive mode
    forever.
        Mr. Perlmutter. All right. So let me ask Mr. Thornton.
        Mr. Thornton. So in our view, the Commercial Space Launch
    Competitiveness Act of 2015, currently that's sufficient for
    where we're at. We don't view that as a barrier for development
    or investment or partners to even invest or send payloads in
    the resources realm. So currently, we don't see the strong push
    for additional change at the moment.
        It's also reassuring that the government of Luxembourg
    recently had a similar thing where they could say that
    Luxembourg companies could own the rights for resources. So
    we're starting to see international----
        Mr. Perlmutter. Activity?
        Mr. Thornton. -- activity, and then also agreement with the
    norms that the United States is creating.
        Mr. Perlmutter. Mr. Alexander?
        Mr. Alexander. I think it's important for the U.S.
    government through the State Department to be talking
    internationally with its counterparts, particularly in the U.N.
    Committee on Peaceful Uses of Outer Space about what the Space
    Treaty, Outer Space Treaty, allows and how we're interpreting
    that. It's important for us as an industry to have the
    certainty that comes with, like you said, with the 2015 law but
    also that it's founded in the Outer Space Treaty, which
    basically say that those resources are available to everybody
    so that when we go, let's say, to the Moon and discover water
    ice there, we're not saying now we own every piece of resource
    on the Moon and every bit of water ice on the Moon; we're
    saying, you know, we are able to utilize what we are able to
    extract and be able to sell that and have property rights over
    that but not rights to the entire Moon. So I think it's
    important from a government perspective that we go out and
    explain what our interpretation of the treaty is and the
    framework that we're establishing and lead by example.
        Mr. Perlmutter. Thank you. If you would indulge me with one
    more minute of questions?
        Chairman Babin. Can I make one----
        Mr. Perlmutter. Yes.
        Chairman Babin. --just say one thing? And what you guys are
    talking about demonstrates the importance of why the House and
    the Senate need to get this American Space Free Enterprise Act
    completed. Go ahead.
        Mr. Perlmutter. So to Dr. Sowers and Mr. Crusan on the Mars
    theme I'd like to talk about. How do you see us working with
    the private sector or international partners and going to the
    Moon and developing some commercial activities up there? How
    does that help us in your opinions to get us to Mars? Dr.
    Sowers?
        Dr. Sowers. Well, I'll just give you one example. If you
    can develop the water resource on the Moon into propellant,
    there's studies that have been done, there was a recent one
    done out of MIT that suggested that you could reduce the cost
    of a Mars mission by about a factor of three. You know, clearly
    there's assumptions in there, you know, and you have to assume
    things about the nature of the resource and the cost to extract
    it and refine it but with reasonable assumptions, you know, a
    factor of three seems quite doable. So, you know, the resources
    on the Moon could be immensely valuable in helping us get to
    Mars.
        Mr. Perlmutter. Mr. Crusan?
        Mr. Crusan. Yeah, these are not mutually exclusive
    activities. Our human spaceflight plans right now, we're
    working on concepts of deep space gateway and transport-type
    architecture that then also working with the commercial
    industry on landed and surfaces, we can conduct tests of
    technologies, advancement of understanding of the resources, if
    the resources are there, is there a means by which to get them
    from there to a staging point that we can use for deep space
    transportation in addition to that. So these activities don't
    need to be mutually exclusive.
        Mr. Perlmutter. All right. Thank you, and thanks, Mr.
    Chair. I yield back.
        Chairman Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you.
        I want to thank the witnesses for their very valuable and
    exciting testimony today and your answers, and the Members for
    the questions that we've asked. The record will remain open for
    two weeks for additional comments and written questions from
    Members, because I know I have one that I would like to ask as
    well, but I want to say this: Thank you for being here.
        This meeting is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:32 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                   Appendix I

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                       Answers to Post-Hearing Questions

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