[House Hearing, 115 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
EXAMINING FEDERAL PROGRAMS THAT SERVE TRIBES AND THEIR MEMBERS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
THE INTERIOR, ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
FEBRUARY 15, 2017
__________
Serial No. 115-14
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
http://oversight.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
26-359 PDF WASHINGTON : 2017
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office,
http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center,
U.S. Government Publishing Office. Phone 202-512-1800, or 866-512-1800 (toll-free).
E-mail, gpo@custhelp.com.
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Jason Chaffetz, Utah, Chairman
John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee Elijah E. Cummings, Maryland,
Darrell E. Issa, California Ranking Minority Member
Jim Jordan, Ohio Carolyn B. Maloney, New York
Mark Sanford, South Carolina Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Justin Amash, Michigan Columbia
Paul A. Gosar, Arizona Wm. Lacy Clay, Missouri
Scott DesJarlais, Tennessee Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Trey Gowdy, South Carolina Jim Cooper, Tennessee
Blake Farenthold, Texas Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Robin L. Kelly, Illinois
Thomas Massie, Kentucky Brenda L. Lawrence, Michigan
Mark Meadows, North Carolina Bonnie Watson Coleman, New Jersey
Ron DeSantis, Florida Stacey E. Plaskett, Virgin Islands
Dennis A. Ross, Florida Val Butler Demings, Florida
Mark Walker, North Carolina Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Rod Blum, Iowa Jamie Raskin, Maryland
Jody B. Hice, Georgia Peter Welch, Vermont
Steve Russell, Oklahoma Matthew Cartwright, Pennsylvania
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Mark DeSaulnier, California
Will Hurd, Texas
Gary J. Palmer, Alabama
James Comer, Kentucky
Paul Mitchell, Michigan
Jonathan Skladany, Majority Staff Director
William McKenna, General Counsel
Ryan Hambleton, Senior Professional Staff Member
Sharon Casey, Deputy Chief Clerk
David Rapallo, Minority Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on the Interior, Energy and Environment
Blake Farenthold, Texas, Chairman
Paul A. Gosar, Arizona, Vice Chair Stacey E. Plaskett, Virgin Islands
Dennis A. Ross, Florida Jamie Raskin, Maryland
Gary J. Palmer, Alabama (Vacancy)
James Comer, Kentucky (Vacancy)
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on February 15, 2017................................ 1
WITNESSES
Mr. Frank Rusco, Director, Natural Resources and Environment,
Energy and Science Issues, U.S. Government Accountability
Office
Oral Statement............................................... 4
Written Statement............................................ 7
Ms. Mary Kendall, Deputy Inspector General, Office of Inspector
General, U.S. Department of the Interior
Oral Statement............................................... 21
Written Statement............................................ 23
The Hon. Tyson Thompson, Councilman, Southern Ute Indian Tribal
Council
Oral Statement............................................... 28
Written Statement............................................ 31
EXAMINING FEDERAL PROGRAMS THAT SERVE TRIBES AND THEIR MEMBERS
----------
Wednesday, February 15, 2017
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on the Interior, Energy and
Environment
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:07 p.m., in
Room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Blake Farenthold
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Farenthold, Gosar, Ross, Palmer,
Comer, Chaffetz, Issa and Plaskett.
Mr. Farenthold. The Subcommittee on Interior, Energy, and
the Environment will come to order.
Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a
recess at any time.
We appreciate your interest in this topic and welcome your
participation today.
We may be having some members from the full committee here
today, so I'd like to ask for unanimous consent that all
members of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform be
allowed to fully participate in today's hearing.
Without objection, so ordered.
And I'll now recognize myself for 5 minutes for an opening
statement.
Today, the Subcommittee on Interior, Energy, and the
Environment will examine obstacles that Native Americans face
with respect to energy development, education, and health care
on tribal land.
The General Accounting Office and the Department of the
Interior Inspector General have extensively documented the
serious and troubling problems Native Americans face in these
areas. Today, we're going to try to do our part to bring
attention to these issues by shining a little bit of light,
congressional light and oversight on them.
When it comes to energy development, tribes face costs and
regulatory impediments that do not exist for development on
non-tribal land. Obtaining a permit to drill on Native American
land is more expensive and time consuming than doing so off
tribal lands. Tribes must conduct detailed environmental
assessments, obtain costly permits that not every tribe can
afford.
The Department of Interior attempted to address this by
creating a special service center to streamline the regulatory
process. However, three of the largest regulatory agencies, the
Environmental Protection Agency, the Army Corps of Engineers,
and the Fish and Wildlife Service were not included in the
service center. Omitting agencies that play such a large role
in regulating the energy development undermines the
Department's effort to reduce the barriers to energy
development on tribal land.
As a result of these unnecessary impediments, valuable
development opportunities are wasted and revenue is lost. For
example, the Southern Ute Tribe represented here today in our
hearing, has foregone almost $90 million in revenue waiting for
Federal approval of right-of-way agreements. Energy resources
represent a crucial way for many tribes to meet their budgetary
obligations and provide needed services to their members.
As for education, the Bureau of Indian Education, or BIE,
has struggled to provide adequate school facilities for tribal
children. Roughly 42,000 students attend schools administered
by the BIE. Badly outdated schools are in disrepair and pose a
major health and safety risk for students. Inconsistent
inspections have contributed to deteriorating physical
conditions of schools. Problems include asbestos, mold, roofing
issues, and electrical danger. I think we have some slides here
of some schools.
As you can see here, we've got an upstairs room in a 1930s
building that holds elementary classes at Tuba City Boarding
School. This school, with this exposed wiring, is listed in
good condition.
Let's go to the next slide. Now, I don't know if you can
make it out, but there's some bleachers in there by that middle
telephone pole. But they've actually put light posts in the
middle of the athletic field there. Millions of dollars were
spent on infrastructure improvements and we come up with this.
Image three, we see thick walls of asbestos installation
are left in one dormitory because the cost to move it is
outrageous.
Next slide. And we see structural cracks in the stairwell
ceiling at another school.
Next slide. Building space is needed for student
activities. In this school, the building is being kept from
being demolished despite the fact that snow comes into the
building. That's a pile of snow there under the door.
Inadequate staff training contributes not only to
inaccurate reporting of schools' physical condition but also to
the independent oversight of school expenditures. GAO has found
that millions of dollars intended for Native American schools
have been lost due to waste and misconduct.
In one instance, over $1 million in Federal funds intended
for a BIE school ended up improperly in a non-school-related
offshore account. Despite the fact that BIE schools spend
almost three times per student more than public schools, we
have a serious problem.
Similarly, the Indian Health Service agency, which serves
the medical needs of roughly 2.2 million Native Americans,
suffers from inadequate patient care. Patients often experience
unreasonably long wait times, and high turnover rates of key
personnel negatively impact the quality of care in services at
IHS schools.
Hopefully, today we can make some progress by highlighting
the issues and discuss it with our panel and come up with some
solutions. As the new administration takes office, this is a
good time to hold these hearings.
With that, I'd like to thank the witnesses for agreeing to
be here today and provide testimony.
At this point, I'd like to recognize our ranking member,
the gentlelady from the Virgin Islands, Ms. Plaskett.
Ms. Plaskett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
And thank the witnesses and all of the individuals who are
here this afternoon about this very important issue.
Mr. Chairman, this hearing that we're having is critically
important, and I want to thank you for holding this this early
in the term. Tribal concerns are often underrepresented, and
I'm glad that we're dedicating a hearing to address these
issues and finding solutions.
The GAO high-risk report has outlined several problems that
the tribal communities face in the areas of energy, health
care, and education, as highlighted by the chairman for the
education issues as well. The report highlights problems
ranging from inadequate Federal oversight, limited Federal
workforce planning, outdated and deteriorated equipment,
technology, and infrastructure, and incomplete or inaccurate
data.
These shortcomings are creating significant difficulties
for these tribal communities. Many tribal communities are
heavily reliant on energy resources for their economic well-
being and dependent upon the Bureau of Indian Affairs to
conduct thorough but efficient reviews.
But the GAO found that it took up to 8 years for the BIA to
process permits, a delay which caused the Tribe to lose an
estimated $95 million in revenues that it otherwise would have
earned from tribal permitting fees, oil and gas severance
taxes, and royalties.
This represents an unacceptable financial burden on this
community. And I have to tell you that I especially am very
sympathetic and empathetic to these issues, coming from the
Virgin Islands where we also feel the inadequate representation
of the Federal Government and often feel forgotten, and the
last person on the checklist of infrastructure and development,
energy issues for our young people, and especially for our
children.
It's absolutely unacceptable that children are expected to
thrive and to be productive citizens under the conditions that
they are now in. The fact that they have speaks to their
resilience and the power and the wherewithal of your community
to make that happen.
GAO also found that similar delays plagued the Indian
Health Service and the Bureau of Indian Education, preventing
tribal members from receiving timely health care and making
schools unsafe for children. In order to improve these Federal
agencies, the Department of the Interior Office of the
Inspector General must be able to adequately investigate these
issues.
However, I am very concerned that in this new
administration, the hiring ban is going to severely compromise
the ability of the IG and the IGs throughout the entire
government to protect taxpayers from the type of mismanagement
the GAO found.
I am asking my Republican colleagues to join me in
requesting that the President immediately lift the hiring ban
so our IGs can have the resources and staffing they need to
ensure the proper functioning of government and prevent waste,
fraud, and abuse.
I'm very much, Mr. Chairman, looking forward to hearing
from our witnesses. And I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. Farenthold. Thank you very much.
And I'll hold the record open for 5 legislative days for
members who would like to submit a written opening statement.
I'd now like to recognize our panel of witnesses.
I'm pleased to welcome Mr. Frank Rusco, director of
national resources for environment--I'm sorry, let me get your
title right. Director of Natural Resources Environment for
energy and science issues at the U.S. Government Accountability
Office.
He'll be accompanied and supported by Ms. Melissa Emrey-
Arras, director of Education, Workforce, and Income Security,
also at the GAO; and Kathleen King, director of Health Care at
the GAO. Their expertise on this issue will be important for
the subject matter of this hearing. So when we swear the
witnesses in, we'll ask that you be sworn in as well.
Our other witnesses are Ms. Mary Kendall, Deputy Inspector
General within the Office of Inspector General at the U.S.
Department of Interior. Welcome.
And finally, the Honorable Tyson Thompson, councilman with
the Southern Ute Indian Tribe. Welcome to you all.
Now, pursuant to committee rules, you will all be sworn in
before you testify. Would you please rise and raise your right
hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Let the record reflect all witnesses answered in the
affirmative. You may be seated.
In order to allow plenty of time for questions and
discussion, we do have quite a few members here, we'd
appreciate it if you'd limit your initial testimony to 5
minutes. We have copies of your entire written statement, which
will be made part of the record.
So Mr. Rusco, we'll start off with you. You're recognized
for 5 minutes.
WITNESS STATEMENTS
STATEMENT OF FRANK RUSCO
Mr. Rusco. Thank you.
Chairman Farenthold, Ranking Member Plaskett, and members
of the committee, it's my pleasure to be here today to discuss
the new area added to GAO's high-risk list: Improving Federal
management of programs that serve tribes and their members.
We're adding this high-risk area because we have found
longstanding problems in the Federal management of Indian
energy resources as well as the administration of Indian
education and healthcare programs.
The Interior's Bureau of Indian Affairs has mismanaged
Indian energy resources and the Federal role in energy
development, and this has limited and delayed opportunities for
tribes and their members to use those resources to create
economic growth and improve the well-being of their
communities.
In addition, we have found numerous challenges facing the
Interior's Bureau of Indian Education and BIA and the
Department of Health and Human Services, Indian Health
Services, in administering education and health care to tribes
and their members. These shortcomings have put the health and
safety of American Indians served by these programs at risk.
As you know, the United States has recognized the sovereign
status of tribes and currently recognizes 567 Indian tribes as
distinct, independent political communities that possess
certain powers of sovereignty and self-government.
In 2016, Congress found in the Indian Trust Asset Reform
Act that through treaties, statutes, and historical relations
with Indian tribes, the United States has undertaken a unique
trust responsibility to protect and support Indian tribes and
Indians. These fiduciary responsibilities reflect commitments
made in treaties and agreements under which Indians surrendered
claims to vast tracks of land to the benefit of the people of
the United States. This history has established enduring and
enforceable Federal obligations to which the national honor has
been committed.
The remainder of my statement is focused on energy issues,
but my colleagues, Melissa Emrey-Arras and Kathy King, are here
to answer questions about education or healthcare issues as
needed.
Some tribes hold abundant energy resources, including coal,
oil and gas, wind, solar, biomass, and hydroelectric resources.
And some tribes and members have sought to develop these
resources.
While tribes and their members can determine how to use
their energy resources, many of these resources are held in
trust or a restricted status. In these cases, BIA must review
and approve leases, permits, and other documents required for
development. We have found deficiencies in BIA's management of
Indian energy resources in several areas.
For example, BIA processes to issue leases, permits,
rights-of-way, and appraisals often taking a long time to
perform, and this has led to delays and missed opportunities
for tribes and their members. As has been mentioned, in one
case we reported that delays in rights-of-way for pipelines
cost the Southern Ute Tribe about $95 million in foregone fees,
severance taxes, and royalties over a period of 8 years. In
another case, a 3-year review of a lease to develop wind power
led to uncertainty about the viability of the project because
the data that were used to support the economic feasibility and
environmental impact of the project became too old to use.
We have recommended that BIA develop and document clear
processes to track review and response times so they can ensure
that documents are moving in a timely and predictable fashion.
BIA has also missed opportunities to streamline review and
approval processes by not communicating and coordinating with
other Federal agencies that have a role in these processes.
Further, BIA has not used best practices to identify key staff
needs to support energy development, and this has contributed
to a situation where the Bureau does not have the right people
with the right skills in the right place to enable energy
development.
BIA has also not invested comprehensively in GIS mapping
technology required to easily identify resources available for
lease as well as places where leases are already in force. In
places without GIS capabilities, BIA has to rely on paper
documents, which adds to review and approval times.
Lastly, in some cases, BIA does not have accurate records
of Indian land and resource ownership, another piece of
information essential for reviewing and improving energy leases
and ensuring tribes and their members get paid their share when
energy production begins.
We have made numerous recommendations to Interior and BIA
to address these deficiencies, and we will be following the
progress of the agency and Bureau in improving its delivery of
services to tribes and their members.
Thank you. This concludes my oral statement. I'll be happy
to answer any questions you may have.
[Prepared statement of Mr. Rusco follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Farenthold. Thank you very much.
Ms. Kendall, you're now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF MARY KENDALL
Ms. Kendall. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, ranking member,
members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the invitation to
testify today about the conditions of Indian country as it
relates to DOI's responsibilities to American Indians.
As you know, DOI's mission includes fulfilling trust
responsibilities to American Indians. Fulfilling these
responsibilities is consistently a top management challenge for
DOI. Through the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Bureau of
Indian Education, the Department provides services to 567
federally recognized tribes with a population of about 1.9
million American Indians and Alaska natives, and provides
education services to about 42,000 Indian students in 183
schools.
DOI funds Indian country programs that provide social
services, law enforcement and detention services, tribal
justice systems, housing assistance, repair and maintenance of
schools, roads, and bridges, and economic development programs
in some of the most isolated and economically depressed areas
in the United States.
For many years, the Office of Inspector General has
reported that BIA and BIE are failing to meet the
responsibilities to American Indians on many fronts. I will
focus my comments today on the challenges facing Indian
schools. Specifically, substantial work is needed to improve
the Indian education system, particularly in creating
environments where children are safe and have adequate means to
learn.
In May 2015 testimony, BIE leadership acknowledged that
they faced unique and urgent challenges in providing a high-
quality education to Indian students attending BIE schools.
They attributed these challenges in part to difficulty in
attracting effective teachers, difficulty in adopting research-
based reforms, ongoing organizational and budgetary
restructuring efforts, and inconsistent BIE leadership.
A high-quality education is also hampered by crumbling
school infrastructure and limited broadband internet access.
All of these challenges contribute to low graduation rates for
native students. Nationally, the American Indian Alaska native
high school graduation rate is 69 percent, below the average
national of 81 percent.
BIE's 2014 blueprint for reform recommended a shift in the
Bureau's role from direct provider of education to one of a
capacity builder and service provider to the tribes that run
their own schools. According to the blueprint, greater tribal
control of schools promotes self-governance and self-
determination, giving tribes more power to engage children,
infuse schools with tribal cultural values and native
languages, and improve educational outcomes. BIE's goal is
commendable, but this vision probably requires more technical
and financial assistance for tribes than BIE can presently
provide.
To address some of these complex challenges, DOI's fiscal
year 2027 budget request proposes $1 billion to sport a
comprehensive redesign and reform of BIE. But to effectively
use its Federal funding in addressing these challenges, BIE
needs to improve both its execution and its oversight of school
expenditures.
What I fear gets lost in reports such as those issued by
GAO and the OIG on Indian country is the impact that the
conditions we report on has on real human lives. The young
people in Indian country who are dependent upon the schools
that BIA operates or oversees are profoundly affected by
attending schools with crumbling infrastructure, schools that
have wholly inadequate physical safety measures, and schools
that are not equipped to prevent or respond to violence or
other emergency situations.
This concludes my prepared remarks, and I am happy to
answer any questions that members of the subcommittee may have.
[Prepared statement of Ms. Kendall follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Farenthold. Thank you. You're all doing very well on
the clock.
Mr. Thompson, can you keep up the trend?
Mr. Thompson. I'll do my best.
Mr. Farenthold. You need to turn your microphone on and get
real close to it. These are kind of very not sensitive
microphones. They want you to be real close.
Mr. Thompson. Sounds good. Awesome.
Thank you, Chairman Farenthold, Ranking Member Plaskett,
and honorable members of the subcommittee. Thanks for having us
here today.
STATEMENT OF TYSON THOMPSON
My name is Tyson Thompson, councilman for the Southern Ute
Indian Tribe, and, again, it is an honor to be here. Our
reservation is located in southwest Colorado, chipped away
through the years and years of Federal demands to a section
that's about 15 by 75 miles, just a strip in the bottom.
We began to develop oil and gas in our reservation in the
1940s, and since then we have been taking greater and greater
control of our mineral resources and destiny. Some examples of
this are collecting nearly $1 billion in revenue since we
enacted a severance tax in 1982.
In 1992, our tribe started Red Willow Production Company,
which operates wells on and off the reservation and is wholly
owned by the Southern Ute Indian Tribe. In 1994, our tribe
partnered to create Red Cedar Gathering Company to provide
gathering and treating services on the reservation.
Less than 50 years ago, the Tribe could no longer make per
capita payments to our members, but with strong vision of our
past leaders, internal expertise, informed decisions, and
planning for the future, we have come a long way since then.
Today, we conduct oil and gas activities in ten States, and we
are the largest employer of the Four Corners region of
southwest Colorado.
Our success allows our tribe to provide many services to
our people, including great health insurance, as well as give a
college education to any of our members that wish it. We are
the only tribe in the Nation with a AAA credit rating from
Standard & Poor's. About 30 percent of the Tribe's income comes
from energy development on the reservation.
There is no question that energy development has put the
Tribe, our membership, as well as the surrounding community on
a more stable economic footing. We could tell you firsthand
that Federal oversight often impedes tribal self-determination.
For example, the BLM issues drilling permits on tribal lands,
which can take 4 to 6 months and cost $9,500. The State of
Colorado, though, can issue drilling permits on private lands
typically within 45 days, and it's free. No wonder oil and gas
companies would rather drill on private lands.
And unfortunately, our reservation is checkerboarded. If
you're not familiar with a checkerboard status of the
reservation, it's not unlike this table where the brown color
is the entire reservation. Everything you see on top of this
table would be trust land. So an operator can go across the
fence and have a different set of regulations and still be
within the exterior boundaries of the reservation and be
utilizing that same resource that's underground.
Willing and able tribes should be allowed greater authority
over energy development on tribal lands. We have shown time and
time again that we can complete major projects quickly and
effectively. Federal agencies have often hindered or flat out
refused our efforts to assist in carrying out these functions,
or their functions, rather.
In 2014, Office of Trust Review and Audit report was found
that the BIA mishandled the Tribe's historical records at the
Southern Ute Agency. The Southern Ute Indian Tribe made
countless offers to assist the BIA in solving this problem, and
after many months, our tribe was finally authorized to enter
into a 638 contract, allowing the Tribe to scan and organize
our historic files at the agency while using $1 million of our
own funding as well as our own staff.
The Tribe has also streamlined the process of approving, in
a single transaction, all right-of-way renewals that an
operator has on the reservation. At times, this number is in
the hundreds. This approach allows the tribes to easily monitor
expiration dates and negotiate renewals, including holding
operators accountable to environmental concerns.
When the Tribe presented one of these rights-of-way
packages to the Southern Ute Agency for approval, it took the
Agency nearly 4 years to approve the package. There was no way
for the Agency to enter this transaction and its information
into the department's land management system, which they call
the TAAMS.
To overcome the problems at the BIA realty function, the
Tribe created its own GIS system, known as the land information
management system. Our system allows the Tribe to scan realty
records into our database where each document is linked to a
location on a map, very similar to Google Maps. When you're
looking for a store and you click on the store, it tells you
the hours and the dates and the times that they're open. And we
would be happy to give the demonstration of the system to the
committee at your convenience.
The BIA does not have the data resources, staffing, or IT
capabilities to meet the Tribe's needs or the other capable
tribes' needs for that matter. We have the capability, and more
importantly, we have the incentive to improve the situation.
There is not a one-size-fits-all solution for tribes. Some
solutions aren't expensive, though. Congress needs to approve
legislation to allow tribes the choice to take on more
responsibility. Federal positions need to be advertised locally
so local people who already live in the area can apply for
them. There needs to be a cost-of-living adjustment for our
area to entice people to work there. And the BIA needs to stop
arbitrarily choosing when they'll exercise trust
responsibility.
The BIA abandoned the trust responsibility to protect and
organize the Tribe's priceless records but then cited their
trust responsibility when they required Southern Ute Agency and
the Tribe to use Federal funds to require tribal employees to
drive 160 miles to be fingerprinted, have a photo taken,
undergo an hour-long interview with the OPM contract
investigator before being allowed to work in the office. Those
are simple solutions and not too expensive to take on to change
that.
To follow up, the Southern Ute Tribe is well equipped, as
we said, and to responsibly develop its own energy resources
safely and effectively. We do appreciate the efforts of this
subcommittee, as well as GAO's office and OIG's office, to help
find solutions to the problems that we experience on a day-to-
day.
Again, thank you for the invitation to appear before you,
and I'm happy to answer any questions.
[Prepared statement of Mr. Thompson follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Farenthold. Thank you very much.
I'll now--we'll now do some questions. I'll recognize
myself to begin with.
So let's go, Mr. Rusco, why has it taken so long to get
things approved in these agencies?
Mr. Rusco. Well, I think, you know, it gets to a couple of
things: One is leadership attention, so they've not paid as
much attention to sort of making sure that they have a plan to
get the right staff in the right places to do the job. And so
if you're some place where you used to have a lot of, for
example, water projects, irrigation projects or something, and
you want to move to energy, you'd go to the BIA office, and
they might have a whole bunch of hydrologists, but they don't
have anybody that knows anything about oil and gas development
or wind development or anything like that.
They need to be forward looking. They need to be creative.
They have an Indian energy center----
Mr. Farenthold. But you're saying they may not have the
expertise. How do we solve this without growing the size of
government and bringing more bureaucrats into these agencies
who will probably slow the process down?
Mr. Rusco. So I think there are some potential ways to do
that, but under the current law, you have to--you do have to
deal with these agencies. I think that there is a lot to be
said for building that capacity in a central location, but you
have to do it in a smart way. And the Indian energy center that
they started is probably a good idea, but they have not
executed it well.
Mr. Farenthold. Why didn't they put EPA Fish and Wildlife
in the core? I mean, I'm a Texan. I know these are the guys
that you've got to mess with whenever you're doing any sort of
infrastructure or energy product. How come they weren't
included?
Mr. Rusco. Absolutely. And absolutely, when they were
building or creating this office, they did not even ask the
question: What do we need to perform the task that we say this
is going to perform? They didn't go to that trouble. And that's
a leadership problem.
Mr. Farenthold. Right.
Ms. Kendall, do you have anything to add along this line of
questioning?
Ms. Kendall. I really would just rearticulate what Mr.
Rusco said. I think it is a leadership issue, and it is a
forward-thinking kind of issue. To sit back and look at the
entire picture, BIA has so many responsibilities, but I think
they try piecemeal solutions without coming together and
actually solving things.
Mr. Farenthold. All right. So what about devolving some of
this to the States? Mr. Thompson testified that in Colorado,
for no charge and 45 days, you could get a drilling permit for
oil and gas. In Texas, the Railroad Commission is equally as
efficient. Obviously, there needs to be some government
oversight where the Tribe itself is not--doesn't have full
authority just like no landowner has full authority without
going to the government. Why couldn't some of this be devolved
to the States?
Ms. Kendall. Is that my question?
Mr. Farenthold. That's your question, then I'm going to ask
Mr. Thompson the same question.
Ms. Kendall. All right. Thank you, sir.
I think, in part, because Interior does have the trust
responsibility, it would take a change in legislation.
Mr. Farenthold. Wait, we're Congress. We can do that.
Ms. Kendall. Yes.
Mr. Farenthold. Mr. Thompson.
Mr. Thompson. I think Southern Ute is in a unique position.
I think there's a lot of tribes that may not be as fortunate or
as lucky as we have been to get to the point where we are
today. And I think some of those moneys that are redirected
towards assisting those tribes versus us, when we can--we can
handle a lot of these situations that come up to really make
business attractive on the reservation. I don't think giving up
or taking these regulations to the State would be in the
Tribe's best interest, just do the self-determination to
sovereignty issues as we want to be doing what we need to do to
survive in the world that we're given.
Mr. Farenthold. So you're--you would more support reform
within the existing Federal system?
Mr. Thompson. I think there's a chance to do things
differently. It would take a little bit of letting go of that
parental side of treatment that tribes have suffered through
the years, and in redirecting those available resources to
other tribes that may request it if they feel like they want to
request it, and increase the ability of that internal function
of BIA to be better than it's ever been. But that's only going
to take place with good management in place.
Mr. Farenthold. All right. We were talking about how much
money you guys lost on the oil and gas. I assume, I mean, been
saying that some of this permitting process took 8 years. I
would love to be selling my natural gas and oil at prices 8
years ago as opposed to today. Do you have any other examples
of where we can--where we should be focused? Obviously, the
schools, the permitting process. Is that all we need to be
looking at?
Mr. Thompson. I think better consultation for all Indian
tribes is a great idea. Consultation has always been good for
some and not good for others. I've seen firsthand what the lack
of consultation can do. But good proper consultation to make
the programs that work for specific tribes. Every tribe is
different. Every tribe's needs are different, and to really
make something that works for each tribe, I mean, it's a big
challenge, but it's something that can be accomplished.
Mr. Farenthold. All right. I see I'm out of time. If we get
to the end and we still have some time, I'll ask more
questions, but I do want to give everybody an opportunity to
get their questions answered.
So we'll recognize the ranking member now for her
questions.
Ms. Plaskett. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you again, testifiers, for your testimony this
afternoon.
Mr. Thompson, sir, you brought up some very interesting
points. And one of the phrases that I thought you utilized,
which I'd like you to elaborate on, is arbitrary trust
responsibility, where you stated that in some instances, the
trust wants to be responsible, and then in the times when you
want them to be responsible they're not. Can you elaborate on
that. Do you remember?
Mr. Thompson. Yes. I'm just thinking how to word it to you.
But what I believe where the trust responsibility is really
coming into play is they're taking that trust responsibility
and applying it to where they would like to, which is maybe the
easier, better function for those in the agency at the top and
instead of, you know, it really addressing the trust
responsibility, we're asking them to achieve at the moment
with--in regards to realty transactions. If we could just
really push some of these things for our tribe that benefit us
now and quickly and in the long run, I mean, it would be a
great thing to accomplish.
As far as trust responsibility not being done in other
fashions, I mean, there's a lot of examples out there. And I'd
be happy to provide you some certain examples in writing as
well.
Ms. Plaskett. Thank you. You also talked, and all of the
witnesses today mentioned the Tribal Energy Resources
Agreement, and as a tool intended to promote efficient energy
and resource development by allowing tribes to enter into
energy-related business arrangements without further approval
of the Secretary of Interior.
Would that be a correct summary, Ms. Kendall, of the
agreement?
Ms. Kendall. That's my understanding of that provision. But
as of today, to the best of my knowledge, no tribe has entered
into a TERA agreement.
Ms. Plaskett. That's what I wanted to talk about. Why do
you think that has been, and what's been the impediment to the
tribes being able to do that?
Ms. Kendall. Well, I'd need to defer to Mr. Thompson to a
certain extent because I know that the Southern Ute Tribe
thought about that at one point. I think that there are some
impediments relative to what the trust responsibilities of the
Department are and what they could and should give up. I know
that the Tribe has asked the Department for clarification on
some issues and has not received that, and I think that's one
of the impediments.
Ms. Plaskett. Well, I understood that some of the--this
goes back to the arbitrary discussion that Mr. Thompson talked
about. But isn't it also because the Interior's regulations may
not necessarily be very clear to some of the tribes and what
will be imposed and not be imposed on that?
Ms. Kendall. That's very possible, yes.
Ms. Plaskett. And then, Mr. Thompson, is that correct? Did
you--I understand that your tribe did do an analysis on whether
or not they should enter into this agreement and decided not
to.
Mr. Thompson. Uh-huh, that's true. We've been looking at
this for a while, and some of the things that keep us from
this--I mean, one of the biggest points that comes to mind is
the inherent Federal function part. The Interior has not
defined that. We've been asking for a definition for some time.
Once we can figure out what that is and then we can better plan
to see what functions we'd actually be assuming. And even once
assuming those functions, one of the things is TERAs are not
going to provide funding for us to take over these Federal
functions. So, I mean, our tribe, like other tribes, were just
reluctant to move into that.
Ms. Plaskett. Mr. Rusco, would you think that analysis is
correct from your review?
Mr. Rusco. Absolutely. I think, you know, as--you know,
every tribe is different. And the abilities and capabilities to
take over what have been Federal functions are going to differ,
and there's going to have to be capacity building. And so
tribes are, understandably, weary about sort of saying, yes,
I'll take on this responsibility without knowing what exactly
that entails, how much will be on them, how much will be--still
remain Federal function, and then will they have support in
order to get--build the capacity to take over the functions
that are part of the TERA.
Ms. Plaskett. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I just want to, as clarification, the
pictures that you showed, which tribe was that from?
Mr. Farenthold. They were from various locations. Let me
take a look.
Flandreau Indian School was one of them. And where were
the--all of the pictures are out of the OIG report.
Ms. Plaskett. Okay. Great.
Mr. Farenthold. The details are in there. There was a
boarding school in there as well.
Ms. Plaskett. Mr. Thompson, is the conditions that were
evidenced in those photographs, is that some of the issues that
you're dealing with as well?
Mr. Thompson. At this point, I believe that there's a lot
of tribes that utilize that funding for education. We are in a
bit of a different situation, so I might not be the best person
to ask. There's other tribes----
Ms. Plaskett. Right. Because your tribe actually, you know,
with your AAA rating, you have a little bit more funding for
education. Is that correct?
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Ms. Plaskett. Mr. Chairman, it would be great if we could,
in the future, maybe have some tribes as a witness who are
really facing some of the economic--the challenges in education
that we've stated today.
Mr. Farenthold. Absolutely.
Ms. Plaskett. Thank you.
Mr. Farenthold. Thank you.
At this point, we'll go to the gentleman from Alabama, Mr.
Palmer, for 5 minutes of questions.
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Thompson--and thank you to all the witnesses for being
here--I'm particularly interested in the work that you're doing
in oil exploration and utilizing those resources. I assume, and
I'm not sure the geography of the--your tribal lands, but does
that include the Green River Formation?
Mr. Thompson. I believe Green River Formation might be a
different--another Ute Tribe. There's three of us.
Mr. Palmer. It's north of you, I believe. Isn't it? Okay.
So you talked about over--since 1982, you've generated over $1
billion in revenue from your activities. Is that correct?
Mr. Thompson. Yes, through severance tax.
Mr. Palmer. Severance tax. Are these companies that are
owned and operated by the Ute Tribe?
Mr. Thompson. No, these are operators that have leased--or
through the Tribe have leased trust lands within the exterior
boundaries of the reservation.
Mr. Palmer. So--but you're collecting the revenues through
the leases, and of the royalties you get a part of the
royalties?
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Mr. Palmer. I'm trying to understand this, because I'm a
big believer in utilizing the natural resources and doing it in
the right way. And what little I understand about the Ute
tribal history, you have a great reverence for the land.
Mr. Thompson. Uh-huh.
Mr. Palmer. So you want to take advantage of these
resources in a way that respects the land that you occupy, that
you've occupied before anybody else occupied Colorado. Is that
correct?
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Mr. Palmer. Okay. And you've been able to do that?
Mr. Thompson. Yes. I mean, we--like I said before in my
oral statement, we've used that in the past as a way of
leveraging environmental issues. We had one producer that had
hundreds of, I guess, rights-of-ways that were coming to time
to renew them. And at the time, they had grandfathered in a
compressor system that was from the 1950s and dumping a lot of
air pollution. We have real strict air regulations on the
reservation. We work real close with the State on those air
regulations. And so we used that as an opportunity to tell them
they need to replace their compressor systems or they're not
going to be renewed on the reservation.
Mr. Palmer. Good.
Let me continue along this line on the permitting process.
The Bureau of Land Management is responsible for the
permitting?
Mr. Thompson. Yes. Well----
Mr. Palmer. And----
Mr. Thompson. Sorry. Our department, we have our own
department of energy, and they take that task on. And the land
information system is a part of DOE along with our IT folks.
Mr. Palmer. Maybe I misunderstood. I thought I understood
you to say that on private land, they can--through Colorado,
they can get a permit within 45 days.
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Mr. Palmer. And it doesn't cost them anything. But on Ute
land, how long does it take?
Mr. Thompson. Oh, it takes 4 to 6 months, usually.
Mr. Palmer. And why is that?
Mr. Thompson. Just the time it takes to walk through from
the moment it leaves our office and goes to the agency office
and then to the regional office and then to the interior office
at HQ and then recirculating back to--with all those approvals.
Mr. Palmer. Does that put you in a--at a disadvantage?
Mr. Thompson. It does. As we know, the competitive business
of oil and gas, time is money, so to speak. And if things
aren't expedited, it takes its toll.
Mr. Palmer. Especially when most of the companies that are
doing the type of oil expiration, they're the smaller companies
and they can't really afford a long lead time after they secure
a lease.
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Mr. Palmer. Okay. Well, the reason I bring that up is
because of some of the issues involving the Bureau of Land
Management Federal lands and big companies being able to buy
the leases and basically hold the leases to impact the market.
And I wanted to know if that was the case, but if you're doing
the leases, you're doing it--you're utilizing the resources for
the benefit of the Tribe.
Mr. Thompson. We do a lot of hard work to make business
attractive on the reservation, and it's a team effort of good
quality staff that make that happen.
Mr. Palmer. How does this impact tribal employment?
Mr. Thompson. Tribal employment, we push real hard for
tribal employment. We have our growth on employees, quite a few
tribal members. We'd like to see that increase. And through our
education program we stress the fact that if we can get some
engineers or geologists through our education program, they'd
have a job waiting for them when they leave.
Mr. Palmer. What's your unemployment rate?
Mr. Thompson. Unemployment on the reservation, I don't have
those numbers, but I can definitely provide that to you.
Mr. Palmer. I would appreciate it if you'd provide that to
the committee.
Mr. Thompson. Okay.
Mr. Palmer. I had something else I wanted to address in the
context of utilizing these revenues. For years, the United
States had a ban on exporting crude oil. We have now lifted
that ban. I think--what was that, Mr. Chairman?--that was in
December of 2015?
Mr. Farenthold. Right.
Mr. Palmer. Have you seen any uptick increase in interest
in those resources?
Mr. Thompson. Most of what we've been paying attention on
since 2015 has been the focus of, you know, the falling oil
prices. So I don't know if that had any effect on that or how
that all played a part. But, I mean, just the fall in the oil
prices----
Mr. Palmer. How has the regulatory regime, the new
regulations that have been handed down impacted the
opportunities for companies to come in and secure a lease and
actually start production?
Mr. Thompson. I think that the regulations that come
through the BLM and onto the reservation, one of the toughest
parts was BLM trying to place us under the title of public
lands, and that really concerned us towards the choice of--or
not towards the choice but the discussion of sovereignty. And
we took charge in that to try to head that off.
Mr. Palmer. Mr. Chairman, I think there's something that we
need to explore a little bit further about how the Bureau of
Land Management is impacting the ability of----
Mr. Farenthold. This is our introductory hearing, and we're
going to figure out where we're going to go from here, so
absolutely.
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Farenthold. That would be appropriate.
And the gentlelady from the Virgin Islands, we're going to
go back over to the Democratic side and let her ask some
questions and then we'll be back to Mr. Comer.
Ms. Plaskett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'll be Mr. Raskin if you need me to be for this portion.
Mr. Farenthold. I think you're fine being who you are.
Ms. Plaskett. Thank you.
Thank you all so much again for this. And I wanted to ask
some questions to you, Mr. Rusco. In the high-risk report,
there are some issues related to education of the tribal youth.
I wanted to talk about that a little bit.
It appears that not only are the children not being
properly educated, but they're being placed in harm's way with
outdated and deteriorating equipment and infrastructure. We saw
pictures of this earlier. Is that--would you say that that's a
correct assessment?
Ms. Emrey-Arras. That is correct. Actually, we found
instances where boilers had failed inspection because of carbon
monoxide leaks, natural gas leaks. And those leaks persisted,
in some cases for as much as 8 months, in student dorms with
staff and students still there.
Ms. Plaskett. And that's very disturbing. And I wanted to
know, has any of that resulted in injuries to the children or
staff at this point?
Ms. Emrey-Arras. We know that they did fix it. We don't
have any information regarding the medical situation for those
individuals, but it's certainly not a condition that we want
our schools to be in. And it is not acceptable for students and
staff to be in those environments.
Ms. Plaskett. Thank you. And this is an ongoing problem
that I know the GAO has identified. From previous reports, have
you seen any improvements in this? Have there been changes that
are done since the reports that were done previously?
Ms. Emrey-Arras. There have been some improvements, I
think, because of our work and because of the work of this
Congress in terms of shining a light on issues. We did find,
for example, last year, that about a third of schools had not
been inspected for many years for health and safety issues. And
in response to our work, the Department made sure that every
school was inspected for the first time this past fiscal year.
However, we're not sure that those inspections were
complete or accurate. And the reason I say that is that because
in the past, there were situations where, for example, someone
did a drive-by where they never left their car. They did the
inspection from their car, never went into a single building.
And in one case, there was a school with 34 buildings,
inspector never went inside and produced an inspection. Not
surprisingly, there were no deficiencies noted for inside the
buildings.
Ms. Plaskett. So with seeing that there--what would be the
thing that would allow for these, not just the inspections to
be done and not just us shining a light on them, but actual
movement in terms of improvement for children and the
environment in which they're expected to go to school?
Ms. Emrey-Arras. The bottom line is you need to be able to
identify these safety hazards and then fix them. The schools
need to get help in remedying these issues, and we made a
recommendation that the Department assist schools in doing
this, and that has yet to be implemented.
Ms. Plaskett. And when you say the department, which
department do you mean?
Ms. Emrey-Arras. Department of Interior, Indian Affairs.
Ms. Plaskett. Okay. And so then, Ms. Kendall, what have
been the measures that your department or DOI has implemented
or have you seen done to address these issues? And for those
issues that have not been addressed, what would be the impetus
or the assistance to help you get that done? Because I can't
believe that the Department of Interior wants children to be in
these positions of, you know, going to school and in
environments like this. So what is the help that you need to
make sure that that's done? What are the things that are
keeping you from getting that done?
Ms. Kendall. Well, we've identified issues with the Bureau
of Indian Affairs and the Bureau of Indian Education's resource
levels, but I think much of it is more distribution and using
those resources effectively. The Office of Inspector General,
of course, has no programmatic authority to make any of these
things happen.
But I think that greater oversight over BIA and BIE by this
body and other congressional oversight, in addition to the
oversight that my office and GAO conducts, would go a long way,
as well as some really serious leadership action by probably
new leadership in the Office of Indian Affairs, BIA, and BIE.
Ms. Plaskett. Now, this is the second time that you've
mentioned a change in leadership or the problems coming from
leadership, coming from the top down. Why have you said that?
Ms. Kendall. Well, it hasn't gotten significantly better.
I've been with the Office of Inspector General for 17 years,
and frankly, I think we could probably reissue many of the
reports that we issued 10, 12 years ago and find much the same
kind of conditions that we find today. Perhaps here and there
things have gotten better, based usually on recommendations by
GAO or the OIG. But as a whole, the system is very, very
problematic.
Ms. Plaskett. Thank you.
So, Mr. Chairman, I think that sounds like a witness list
for us for potentially another hearing.
Mr. Farenthold. We'll work on it. We've got a very busy
schedule for this committee, as you know.
Ms. Plaskett. Let's get to work. No problem.
Mr. Farenthold. All right. So now we'll go to--we're going
to finish out on the--let everybody get their first round in
here. So we'll move on to Mr. Comer from Kentucky.
Mr. Comer. Well, thank you.
I wanted to focus on development and drilling there.
Obviously, there's a window of opportunity in Washington to try
to open back up and redefine our energy policy, and certainly
your economy, this would be a huge boost to it.
I have a question, Mr. Thompson, where does the money go
that BLM charges for the permit fee?
Mr. Thompson. We don't get a report on that.
Mr. Comer. I understand. You don't get any of that? It's
a----
Mr. Thompson. It's----
Mr. Comer. Do you know the amount?
Mr. Thompson. $9,500 is the permit fee, but where that
goes, I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Comer. Does anyone know where that money goes?
Mr. Rusco. It goes into the general fund.
Mr. Comer. The general fund.
What prevents BLM from approving the drilling permits for
tribal land sooner?
Mr. Rusco. That's a question of concern. We don't know
exactly why, but there are a number of things we've pointed
out. And so the first thing is they don't track the times so--
for permits very well. So we've been down this path. We have
oil and gas development on Federal lands in general on the
high-risk list.
We've found that there's problems of having people in the
right places at the right times. They often don't have the
staff they need to do all the jobs that they have to do, and
they haven't been very creative in getting them there. There
have been a couple of good pilots to pull people from some
places to busier--less busy places to busier places, and those
have worked. They need to be better at that. They need to be
more nimble and more creative.
Mr. Comer. Okay. That's all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Farenthold. Thank you very much.
We will now recognize the gentleman from Utah, Mr.
Chaffetz.
Mr. Chaffetz. I thank the chairman.
A couple things I want to talk about. Do you know--any of
you know what the percentage of students who are considered to
have grade-level math skills is? Because my statistics that are
right here before me say that only 5 percent of students are
reaching grade-level math skills. Does that sound right?
Crickets. Nobody? Could you please look at that.
I'm reading another stat that says--does anybody know what
the national dropout rate is of the students, Native American
students, or high schools, grade schools? No?
This is something, I guess, I would plead with both the GAO
and the Office of Inspector General to have at the top of their
minds as they look at this. My understanding is that is 47
percent. Forty-seven percent, pretty high.
Part of the issue that we have in Utah, right across, Mr.
Thompson, across the border there in the Four Corners area--I
happen to represent Utah's Third Congressional District--we
have a lot of the Navajo Nation, 3 percent of the Navajo
Nation, the greater Navajo Nation is in Utah. We have seven
chapters in my congressional district.
We have a heavy--or a big problem with roads and the
ability to get to school and back. Mr. Thompson, I don't know
what it's like on the Colorado side of the line, but do you
have these types of problems, school buses, kids, their ability
to get to school? How far do they travel to get to school?
What's your personal experience on this issue?
Mr. Thompson. Again, because of the checkerboard nature of
the reservation, we also have a municipal city close by to the
tribal headquarters. So the tribal community surrounds this
municipality, and it's pretty close. So, I mean, the access
isn't difficult, and it's an improving school system, happy to
say.
Mr. Chaffetz. Good. Good.
Mr. Thompson. We work pretty close to our education
department and the school to make sure people are where they
need to be.
Mr. Chaffetz. I think if you would look, though--and this
is my plea also to GAO and the Inspector General's Office--as
you go out and visit this part of the world, what people don't
realize is how expansive it is. My county, San Juan County, is
bigger than New Jersey. We have one stoplight.
And if you look probably into Mr. Gosar's district, look
into, you know, in the Four Corners area, one of the big
problems that we have is the ability of our students to get to
school, because when it rains or there's snow, there is a big
problem with--and we've got lots of pictures. The school
funding levels have not changed to deal with road maintenance.
San Juan County is doing everything it can. But you have
students that on average, in many places, miss more than a day
of school per month just because they can't get to school.
And I think she would like to say something. Have you been
sworn in, I hope?
Ms. Emrey-Arras. I have.
Mr. Chaffetz. Okay. Good.
Ms. Emrey-Arras. My name is Melissa Emrey-Arras. I'm with
the GAO. I think this is very much on point, and I want to let
you know that GAO is currently investigating this issue of
tribal roads and school attendance, and we have a forthcoming
report on this topic.
Mr. Chaffetz. Very good. Do you have a sense of the timing
of this?
Ms. Emrey-Arras. I believe it's late spring.
Mr. Chaffetz. Very good. That is greatly appreciated. We
did offer an amendment on an appropriations bill and were able
to get that through. But because of the CR, I don't know that
it actually made it all the way to the finish line, but--to the
level that we'd like to see in the future. But it is a big
problem and your report would be much, much appreciated.
The per-pupil spending is much higher than it is actually
in other parts of the country. Your ability to help us
understand why the dropout rate is so high, reading and writing
and certainly the math level is so low, we would very, very
much appreciate.
Ms. Emrey-Arras. I could speak to some of that, if that
would be helpful at this moment.
Mr. Chaffetz. Sure. Sure.
Ms. Emrey-Arras. We have done a look at school spending,
and you're completely right. It's much higher on a per-pupil
basis for the BIE schools. We found that it was 56 percent
higher than comparable public schools. A lot of that has to do,
as you point out, with the remote locations of the schools.
Also, the schools tend to have lower enrollments than public
schools. And in addition, quite a few of the students tend to
be low income and in need of special education services, which
are more costly. So those are some of the driving factors for
the difference in cost.
And in terms of the academics, as you point out, students
in the BIE school system do perform worse than students
elsewhere. We found, for example, that students attending BIE
schools scored 22 points lower for reading tests and 14 points
lower for math tests in the fourth grade than other Indian
students attending public schools. So this is, you know, very
comparable in that way.
Mr. Chaffetz. Right.
Ms. Emrey-Arras. And as you all know, the graduation rates
are also much lower for Indian students attending BIE schools
than Indian students nationwide.
Mr. Chaffetz. And so my plea, I guess, for the panel and
everybody is we can keep doing what we're doing and we'll
probably get the same results. But if you want a different
result, we're probably going to have to do something different.
So suggestions, ideas on what to do different rather than just
spend more money, because we're already spending more money,
we've got to be able to figure out how to get a different
result. And we're open to the ideas and possibilities.
I've gone over my time. Thank you, Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Farenthold. Thank you very much. We'll now recognize
the vice chairman of the subcommittee, the gentleman from
Arizona, Mr. Gosar.
Mr. Gosar. I thank the chairman. Mr. Thompson, my family is
from Durango and Bayfield. So thank you very much for all that
you do.
Mr. Thompson. Thank you.
Mr. Gosar. I want to the highlight your tribe. Because
you've taken advantage of your resources and development.
Right?
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Mr. Gosar. That's why you're in the position you are today.
Right?
Mr. Thompson. Part of the reason, sure.
Mr. Gosar. Pretty aggressive. Right?
Mr. Thompson. Oh, yeah. Pretty aggressive.
Mr. Gosar. So I want to go back to these TERAs. Okay?
Because they're of high conflict in your opinion. Right?
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Mr. Gosar. Okay. So part of the problem is is that the
interior has--or BIA has been very poor on their promises.
Right? In keeping their promises?
Mr. Thompson. Historically, yes.
Mr. Gosar. So if you were to write, looking at these TERAs,
have you had any direct review of these TERAs personally
yourself?
Mr. Thompson. Personally, we've gone through a few since my
time. And it's been a discussion for quite a bit of time,
actually, within our legal team and other council members of
the past.
Mr. Gosar. Have you made proposals to BIA and BLM in regard
to how those TERAs could be better defined or how their
interpretations are?
Mr. Thompson. Yes. We've made suggested changes, requested
information, especially on the inherent Federal functions.
We've also asked about how they were measured, travel capacity,
how they will define the inclusion of public in the discussion
process, and also the--just what is the assumed Federal
functions the tribe will take on. That's been some unclear
answers since the beginning of questioning.
Mr. Gosar. Did you get any answers?
Mr. Thompson. Not to this day.
Mr. Gosar. Would you--would it be possible to get those--
those letters of inquiry to the committee?
Mr. Thompson. I'm sure we could provide you with a lot of
documentation to that effect.
Mr. Gosar. So in getting back to these TERAs and giving up
to--because I thought I heard some of the aspects of impugned
sovereignty. Non-sovereignty. Right?
Mr. Thompson. Okay.
Mr. Gosar. Is that what I heard?
Mr. Thompson. Just----
Mr. Gosar. Within these TERAs.
Mr. Thompson. I think it's close to how TERAs will affect
our sovereignty. And we want to always empower tribes, our
tribe, other tribes to have more--to have more responsibility
over what governs themselves and how we govern ourselves, and
so we try to get to that.
Mr. Gosar. See, I like where you're going. So I'm going to
go back to these permitting processes because of the inherent
bias within--I think is going on within the agency. Do you have
the same kind of problems for alternative energy?
Mr. Thompson. No. We actually received a pretty good grant
to get solar projects started on our reservation----
Mr. Gosar. Are they fast tracked?
Mr. Thompson. It should come up on online this spring.
Mr. Gosar. Wow. What wind of permitting time was that?
Mr. Thompson. It was started right before I came in. Do we
know how long that was? It was a few years of permitting
process, though.
Mr. Gosar. So it went through a full long line of
permitting. So something still similar to that application?
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Mr. Gosar. Was there a change in aptitude in regards to
looking at alternative energy versus oil and gas?
Mr. Thompson. I'm not sure there was a change in aptitude
on that.
Mr. Gosar. So was it easier to find people to come out then
to review it? I would be just--I would be really intrigued by
that because I'm a believer in all-the-above energy policy. And
so, you know, I think that we have got to feign away the
biases. My--go ahead.
Mr. Thompson. I'm sorry. I think this would be a great
opportunity to invite you to our reservation to see what we do
and maybe----
Mr. Gosar. I go through there all the time.
Mr. Thompson. Well, I mean just meet with our staff and
really talk about these things and get these answers firsthand.
It would be a great opportunity.
Mr. Gosar. Well, and it drives me to my point about
sovereignty is that if you're truly sovereign, really, why is
it that the BIA or the BLM is truly involved?
Mr. Thompson. I think it comes down again to what they
define as tribal trust responsibility and----
Mr. Gosar. No, but I think they are two different things.
Mr. Thompson. There is.
Mr. Gosar. Because in sovereignty, I mean, there shouldn't
be an inherited trust obligation because you're taking that.
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Mr. Gosar. So I think that conversation should be a very
innate one. But I'd really like to explore more about the
TERAs. And in regards to you, because you have been a very
successful tribe, and I think a lot more tribes need to
understand how you leverage that. Because it's very similar to
what western states were promised in regards to royalties and
shared royalties for the betterment of education and
government--rural governments stuff like that and
infrastructure projects.
So we'll keep this up. I've run out of time. I appreciate
it, Mr. Thompson.
Mr. Thompson. Thank you.
Mr. Issa. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields back. I'll now
recognize myself for a round of questioning.
This morning at the full committee in this same room we had
Gene Dodaro. And I asked him basically three questions related
to this afternoon's hearing. And it went like this: Isn't it
true that the Federal Government has failed our tribes when it
comes to their education? Isn't it true that we have been less
than responsive at helping them build their energy
requirements? I didn't name oil versus anything else. I just
said energy, and he said yes. And as I went through that
process, what I've discovered was we, the Federal Government,
have failed.
And when I asked the general what we should do about it, he
said: Well, I will be meeting with HHS when it comes to the
health care part, which was the third failure, I'll be meeting
with the new Secretary. And when I meet with, when confirmed,
the new Secretary of the Interior, he's got a big job. And he's
going to have to make fundamental changes.
Now, I say this just to make sure that you knew what your
boss had said. Do you see any difference in the fact that our
Federal Government in the past several years has failed in
these three areas sufficiently that for the first time that
I've been looking at it these are on the high risk?
Mr. Rusco. No, I was at this morning's hearing. And I'd
never disagree with the Comptroller General. But----
Mr. Issa. Well, this is one place you're welcome to shed
some light. We'll give you congressional immunity, of course.
Mr. Rusco. Thank you. But no, I agree--I agree 100 percent.
This is a case where in all three areas we all agreed that the
body of work that had been done in there showed a persistent
failure to efficiently and appropriately manage Federal
programs designed to serve tribes and their members.
Mr. Issa. And I'm particularly concerned about health care.
It would seem that at a time when we put just in ObamaCare
subsidies $51 billion into subsidies for less-well-off people,
it sounds likes Indian health didn't get their share of that.
Mr. Rusco. Kathy King is here from our healthcare group
to----
Mr. Issa. Kathy, good to have an expert.
Ms. King. A few years ago we did some projections about the
number of Indians that would be eligible for--or potentially
eligible for care under the ACA, both under Medicaid and under
the exchanges. And we found that there were hundreds of
thousands that could be potentially eligible, depending upon
whether you live in a State where Medicaid has expanded.
Mr. Issa. But in most cases, if you live on tribal land,
such as the Navajo and others, you're very likely to be below
that 135 percent of the poverty
Ms. King. Yeah. Yes. We have not gone back and looked to
see how many of them have actually enrolled in those programs.
But the enrollment in those programs can be potentially helpful
in two ways.
One, if people enroll in Medicaid or the exchanges and they
seek care at an IHS facility, then they--IHS can bill for those
services and they can augment their revenues and serve more
people. Or if they go elsewhere, that frees up more money for
people at IHS.
Mr. Issa. Well, and that begs the question of if somebody
comes in to a Native facility, are they asking: Are you on it,
and then assisting them in getting on it, which ultimately is a
self-funding method. Did you find that in your overview?
Ms. King. We did our work before the ACA actually took
effect. But one of things that we were concerned about----
Mr. Issa. But Medicaid was still a question back then.
Ms. King. Yeah, Medicaid was still a concern. But--were the
expansions. They do have patient care representatives. But one
of the things that we would have liked them to do is to expand
their use of patient care representatives to help with what we
thought would be an onslaught of enrollment. And they said that
they were not able to do that.
Mr. Issa. And as a result, what could have improved life
for Native Americans didn't happen. And that's why they're on
the endangered--or the high risk list.
Ms. King. Some of our work predated that. So we don't know
for sure. But, you know, there are two ways that people get
care through the IHS. You can get care at an IHS facility, or
if the services are not available there, which they frequently
aren't, then they buy services on the open market. And when
they do that, there is a priority listing that varies from area
to area. So in some areas the only people who get care are
people who are in danger of life or limb.
Mr. Issa. In other words, we're giving less than the care
that they were promised because we either--either they can't
come to a clinic that has the facility or we're crying poor and
rationing care.
Ms. King. There is a trust responsibility.
Mr. Issa. Okay. I'll close quickly because the energy issue
Mr. Gosar touched on I want to just run one question. And I'm
not a lawyer. So that means that I may ask a question I don't
know the answer to. But in a nutshell, the last 8 years, in my
estimation, there's been a war on carbon, on coal, on oil, and
natural gas.
When you look at the difficulty the tribes have getting
through a bureaucracy even though they pay for something that
is their asset on their sovereign land, is there any
possibility that not that they were singled out but they were
caught up in a war on carbon that occurred that caused them to
be simply not able to exercise their rights? And I ask that
because clearly Federal land usage for natural gas, oil, and
coal dropped over the last 8 years while it rose on non-Federal
land.
Mr. Rusco. There is a lot there. So we did find that these
delays and problems with permitting and development occurred
across the board for energy on tribal lands. So there are wind
projects that had been languishing for years, and meanwhile
State or utility agreements to purchase the power expired and
they had to renegotiate these things. And we found that kind of
across the board.
Mr. Issa. So if I can summarize what you said, you're
saying the last several years they've been inept at allowing
Native Americans to utilize the resources. And as a result, it
has hurt their ability to help themselves?
Mr. Rusco. Certainly when you miss an opportunity and, you
know, for example, for oil and gas, development is all about
the price of the resource and the location of the resource.
When prices are high, companies are like all over the place.
And if you can't get a permit through in time and the price
falls, they're less interested. So there is a--there's an
inherent disadvantage if you know you're going to go into a
long permitting process.
Mr. Issa. Well, since the gentleman from Texas comes from a
place where they do permits on a State basis and they do them
quickly, I will let him reassume the chair. And I thank all of
you and yield back.
Mr. Farenthold. [Presiding.] Ms. Plaskett, do you have some
more questions?
Ms. Plaskett. I do have a couple more questions. Thank you
for your indulgence, Mr. Chairman.
Touching on the question that was just raised by my
colleague Mr. Issa about the Affordable Care Act, Mr. Rusco, do
you know, is it possible for GAO to make a determination on how
many American Indians are currently using--I know that that was
not part of your last report. But do you or, Ms. Kendall, have
you looked at ways of determining who is taking advantage of
that?
Ms. King. We could examine eligibility rolls.
Ms. Plaskett. And would that also tell you the other
question I asked, was his informing tribal members that the
Affordable Care Act was available for them?
Ms. King. They did do--in response to our recommendations,
they did begin doing some outreach. There was a delay because
of there was some uncertainty about whether the Affordable Care
Act would go into effect or not. But they did do some outreach.
But we could now go back and look at eligibility rolls and
determine whether--determine how many people enrolled.
Ms. Plaskett. I mean, I just find this, you know,
heartbreaking because this really correlates to so much of
what's happening in my own community and in most communities,
minority communities, underserved communities, where people are
dying of preventable diseases.
And a lot of it is treatable health conditions related to
diabetes and hypertension and some of these other areas that we
should be taking up the slack in.
Ms. King. Yes. And we do know that Native Americans have a
shorter life expectancy and greater comorbidities.
Ms. Plaskett. Okay. Thank you very much.
And the other questions that I have are related to Ms.
Kendall. When there was the creation of the inspector general,
which you say you've been there now for 17 years, to detect
waste, fraud, and abuse, you do that by hiring auditors and
investigators. Correct?
Ms. Kendall. That's correct.
Ms. Plaskett. How many do you have on staff now?
Ms. Kendall. We have roughly 100 auditors and about 95
investigators.
Ms. Plaskett. And that's for the Department of Interior?
Ms. Kendall. For the entire Department.
Ms. Plaskett. And what are they reviewing? What's the scope
of their review?
Ms. Kendall. Well, we have nine bureaus and offices that
comprise the Department of the Interior. So our oversight
responsibility is vast.
Ms. Plaskett. Okay. And ``vast'' meaning how many thousands
of----
Ms. Kendall. Seventy thousand employees. About that again
of grantees and contractors.
Ms. Plaskett. So that's a good point. So you're not only
reviewing yourself, but you have contractors and vendors and
others that you do review for.
Ms. Kendall. That's correct.
Ms. Plaskett. So the announcement of a hiring freeze in the
recent administration has--what has happened in the past when
you've had hiring freezes in terms of the agency and the
inspector general being able to complete their operations?
Ms. Kendall. Well, essentially like all the OIGs, we are
very personnel driven. And close to 80 percent of our budget
goes to salaries. We have no programmatic functions or funding.
And so a hiring freeze, much like budget reductions, hit us in
a fundamental ability to do our job.
Ms. Plaskett. And that's important under this committee
because we rely on you all so much for the reports and the
timely reports that you give us so that he we can identify
these areas that are of concern so we can address the Bureau of
Indian Affairs and their discrepancies, deal with the school
issues that we have.
Can you describe for us some of the challenges that your
office will face now if there's a hiring freeze in the Office
of Inspector General?
Ms. Kendall. Well, certainly we do not have a great deal of
vacancies right now. But if we were to continue to lose people
to retirement or to other agencies or to the private sector, we
would be limited considerably in being able to fill those
positions.
As I heard Mr. Dodaro this morning talk about hiring
freezes, I believe he said that historically they have not been
particularly effective in terms of saving funds. But certainly
agencies like ours who are really personnel driven, we are
affected fairly significantly.
Ms. Plaskett. Okay. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Farenthold. Thank you. And I just want to follow up on
one thing. My inner tech geek is going to come out.
So I wanted to talk to Mr. Thompson about your scanning
project. One of the--I also serve on the Technology
Subcommittee of this committee. And one of things that I've
noticed is our Federal Government couldn't compute its way out
of a paper bag sometimes. Could you outline the scanning
program and the GIS program and how you all took that over and
how that is helping the Federal Government.
And do you think there's some ways that, based on what you
have done, the Federal agencies or other tribes could improve
the service within the Federal Government by things that you do
yourselves?
Mr. Thompson. Awesome. I guess there was--a few years ago
there was a deadline set on realty records and BIA records all
being consolidated to a place in Oklahoma. It was concerning to
us and we needed those documents to do our business on a day-
to-day.
So that's when this--there was a rush to try to do
something to start scanning these records in. At the same time
we needed a better system of--then TAAMS could ever provide.
And we needed something more efficient to help us be better
stewards of our land and our opportunities.
So we developed the land information--the land information
management system as a way of making it easier to track all
realty functions that take place on the reservation, all the
rights of ways, anything related to energy going into this
system to give us a point and kind of situation that we can get
to the documents we need to do what we need to do.
Mr. Farenthold. And you were able to find a software
solution, hardware pollution, to do that relatively easily and
inexpensively?
Mr. Thompson. No. We created the system ourselves
internally. It wasn't something that anybody else had to offer
that would work for us. So it was something that we developed
on our own with good people and time.
Mr. Farenthold. Okay. And do you--given the--in hindsight,
would you do it again?
Mr. Thompson. Well, I think if we had to go through this
entire process of having to do it, I wish that that could have
been different. But, I mean, it did produce an opportunity for
us to create something that----
Mr. Farenthold. And is that something you're open to
sharing with potentially other tribes or, you know, sharing
your experience in there working together to make things better
for everybody?
Mr. Thompson. I think Southern Ute's always willing to help
other tribes as much as they can, showing them what we have
done as a success story in any country in energy development.
And, again, we are throwing out the offer or the invitation to
see a demonstration.
Mr. Farenthold. All right. Great. Ms. Plaskett, do you have
anything else?
All right. I'd like to thank our witnesses to for taking
time to appear before us today.
I'd also like to ask unanimous consent that members have 5
legislative days to submit questions for the record. Without
objection, that's so ordered.
If there's no additional business, without objection, the
subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:26 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[all]