[Senate Hearing 114-379]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 114-379
THE STREAM PROTECTION RULE: IMPACTS ON THE ENVIRONMENT AND IMPLICATIONS
FOR ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT AND CLEAN WATER ACT IMPLEMENTATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
FEBRUARY 3, 2016
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys
_________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
99-405PDF WASHINGTON : 2016
____________________________________________________________________
For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office,
Internet:bookstore.gpo.gov. Phone:toll free (866)512-1800;DC area (202)512-1800
Fax:(202) 512-2104 Mail:Stop IDCC,Washington,DC 20402-001
COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma, Chairman
DAVID VITTER, Louisiana BARBARA BOXER, California
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland
MIKE CRAPO, Idaho BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon
ROGER WICKER, Mississippi KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, New York
DEB FISCHER, Nebraska CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
Ryan Jackson, Majority Staff Director
Bettina Poirier, Democratic Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
FEBRUARY 3, 2016
OPENING STATEMENTS
Inhofe, Hon. James M., U.S. Senator from the State of Oklahoma... 1
Boxer, Hon. Barbara, U.S. Senator from the State of California... 14
WITNESSES
Parfitt, Todd, Director, Wyoming Department of Environmental
Quality, prepared statement.................................... 5
Pizarchik, Joseph, Director, Office of Surface Mining Reclamation
and Enforcement, U.S. Department of the Interior............... 15
Prepared statement........................................... 18
Erdos, Lanny, Chief, Division of Mineral Resources Management,
Ohio Department of Natural Resources........................... 59
Prepared statement........................................... 62
Larkin, Clay, Partner, Dinsmore and Shohl........................ 65
Prepared statement........................................... 67
Wasson, Matt, Director of Programs, Appalachian Voices........... 73
Prepared statement........................................... 75
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL
Letters:
To Joseph G. Pizarchik, Director, Office of Surface Mining
Reclamation and Enforcement, U.S. Department of the
Interior:
From Todd Parfitt, Director, Wyoming Department of
Environmental Quality, May 22, 2015.................... 104
From Todd Parfitt, Director, Wyoming Department of
Environmental Quality, October 23, 2015................ 106
From Russell Kirkham, CPG, Manager, Coal Regulatory
Program, Alaska Department of Natural Resources,
October 26, 2015....................................... 112
From Daniel Graham, PE, President, Alaska Coal
Association, October 26, 2015.......................... 157
From Deantha Crockett, Executive Committee, Alaska Miners
Association, October 26, 2015.......................... 162
From Marleanna Hall, Executive Director, Resource
Development Council for Alaska, Inc., October 26, 2015. 167
From Senator James M. Inhofe, September 27, 2016......... 170
To Janice M. Schneider, Assistant Secretary, Land and
Minerals Management, U.S. Department of the Interior:
From Todd Parfitt, Director, Wyoming Department of
Environmental Quality, December 3, 2015................ 171
From Todd Parfitt, Director, Wyoming Department of
Environmental Quality, January 19, 2016................ 173
Statement from the National Endangered Species Act Reform
Coalition...................................................... 176
Testimony of John Corra, Director, Wyoming Department of
Environmental Quality before the House Energy and Mineral
Resources Subcommittee re Oversight Hearing on Jobs at Risk:
Community Impacts of the Obama Administration's Effort to
Rewrite the Stream Buffer Zone Rule, September 26, 2011........ 178
The Human Cost of Coal, iLoveMountains.org, printed February 2,
2016........................................................... 186
THE STREAM PROTECTION RULE: IMPACTS ON THE ENVIRONMENT AND IMPLICATIONS
FOR ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT AND CLEAN WATER ACT IMPLEMENTATION
----------
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 3, 2016
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Environment and Public Works,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:35 a.m. in room
406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. James M. Inhofe
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Inhofe, Boxer, Barrasso, Capito, Boozman,
Fischer, Sullivan, Cardin, Gillibrand, and Markey.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES M. INHOFE,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
Senator Inhofe. The hearing will come to order.
We appreciate you and the witnesses on the second panel
being here. I think we are going to have a bigger turnout in a
few minutes.
Let's go ahead and get our opening statements out of the
way, if that is all right, Senator Boxer.
Today's hearing is to examine the Department of Interior's
Office of Surface Mining Stream Protection Rule and its nexus
with implications to the Clean Water Act and the Endangered
Species Act. I would also like to discuss the NEPA process for
developing this rule. In particular OSM's failure to allow
States a meaningful opportunity to participate in the NEPA
process, even though they were cooperating agencies under NEPA.
This rule establishes the conditions a coal mining
operation is going to have to meet to receive a permit under
the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act, also known as
SMCRA.
SMCRA includes provisions for protecting the environment.
However, SMCRA also specifically says that it does not
authorize duplicative Federal environmental regulation. And
under SMCRA, in 24 authorized States, the State agency--not the
Federal Government--makes coal mining permitting decisions.
Unfortunately, the rule that the Office of Surface Mining
proposed just last July would establish new onerous conditions
that duplicate or supersede existing Clean Water authorities of
States and the Corps of Engineers, which I contend is an
illegal power grab.
Under the Clean Water Act, States establish water quality
standards. The so-called Stream Protection Act would override
that authority and let OSM set new water quality standards for
coal mining operations. These new standards are set at the whim
of OSM without any of the notice and comment rulemaking
required under the Clean Water Act and can be used to override
State water quality certifications and the State coal mining
permitting authorities. Again, it is a power grab.
Under the Clean Water Act, the Corps of Engineers issues
permits to fill in streams. The Stream Protection Rule would
allow OSM to override the Corps' authority by adding conditions
to SMCRA permits over and above what the Corps requires in
section 404 permits and by creating even more confusion over
the reach of the Federal authority under the Clean Water Act,
the issue that is being litigated as part of the WOTUS rule
challenges. Again, a power grab.
Under the Endangered Species Act, the Fish and Wildlife
Service lists threatened and endangered species. Under the
Stream Protection Rule, States are required to meet new
conditions that apply not only to listed species, but also
species that Fish and Wildlife have proposed for listing,
circumventing the notice and comment rulemaking process
required for listing new species under the ESA. Now, even
worse, the proposed rule would give Fish and Wildlife
unprecedented veto authority over State permits. So that is
what is all the way through this.
Under NEPA, cooperating agencies are supposed to be granted
access to information and an opportunity to provide comments
while an Environmental Impact Statement is being developed.
Eleven States became cooperating agencies for the Environmental
Impact Statement for this rule. However, OSM shut them out of
the process, failing to provide any information to States since
early 2011. As a result, OSM developed a rule for a State
administered program without adequate State involvement.
The unauthorized provisions of this proposed rule will have
a significant adverse effect on mining States. It will add so
many layers of bureaucracy that mining permits will halt and
even current permits could be reopened, causing severe economic
impacts.
Now, I know this is true. I spent last Friday out north of
Poteau, Oklahoma. That is a big mining area that we have
historically. It has been there for many, many years. People
don't think of Oklahoma as being a coal mining State, but what
we have is people really hurting out there. It is a serious
problem.
In comments Senator Capito filed on this proposed rule in
September of last year, she noted that finalizing this rule
would result in an annual loss in coal production valued at $14
billion to $20 billion and losses in Federal and State revenues
of $4 billion to $5 billion a year.
The coal industry has already lost tens of thousands of
jobs in the past few years. We have to be cautious to ensure we
don't regulate into extinction one of the most important energy
sources for this country, which I think is some people's
intention.
So, this is the situation created by this proposed ``Stream
Protection Rule''--State water quality standards under the
Clean Water Act will be superseded by new standards that OSM
creates. The Corps of Engineers' permits under section 404 of
the Clean Water Act will be superseded by new conditions
imposed by OSM. A permit that a State coal mining permitting
authority wants to issue can be vetoed by the Fish and Wildlife
Service based on impact to species that are not even listed
under the Endangered Species Act.
All this Federal overreach is going to impose a hardship on
coal miners and the States they live in.
I want to thank our witnesses for being here.
Unfortunately, one of our witnesses, Director Todd Parfitt from
Wyoming, he couldn't do it because of some weather issues they
had up there, so I would ask unanimous consent that his
statement be placed in the record. Thankfully, we have Mr.
Larkin here with us today who was able to step in at the last
minute, and I look forward to hearing from all of our
witnesses.
Senator Boxer.
[The prepared statement of Senator Inhofe follows:]
Statement of Hon. James M. Inhofe,
U.S. Senator from the State of Oklahoma
Today's hearing is to examine the Department of the
Interior Office of Surface Mining's Stream Protection Rule and
its nexus with implications to the Clean Water Act and the
Endangered Species Act. I would also like to discuss the NEPA
process for developing this rule--in particular, OSM's failure
to allow States a meaningful opportunity to participate in the
NEPA process, even though they were cooperating agencies under
NEPA.
This rule establishes the conditions a coal mining
operation must meet to receive a permit under the Surface
Mining Control and Reclamation Act--also known as SMCRA.
SMCRA includes provisions for protecting the environment.
However, SMCRA also specifically says that it does not
authorize duplicative Federal environmental regulation. And
under SMCRA, in 24 authorized States, the State agency, not the
Federal Government, makes coal mining permitting decisions.
Unfortunately, the rule that the Office of Surface Mining
proposed last July would establish new onerous conditions that
duplicate or supersede existing Clean Water Act authorities of
States and the Corps of Engineers.
Under the Clean Water Act, States establish water quality
standards. The so-called Stream Protection Rule would override
that authority and let OSM set new water quality standards for
coal mining operations. These new standards are set at the whim
of OSM, without any of the notice and comment rulemaking
required under the Clean Water Act and can be used to override
State water quality certifications and State coal mining
permitting authorities.
Under the Clean Water Act the Corps of Engineers issues
permits to fill in streams. The so-called Stream Protection
Rule would allow OSM to override the Corps' authority by adding
conditions to SMCRA permits over and above what the Corps
requires in a section 404 permit and by creating even more
confusion over the reach of Federal authority under the Clean
Water Act--the issue that is being litigated as part of the
WOTUS rule challenges.
Under the Endangered Species Act, the Fish and Wildlife
Service lists threatened and endangered species. Under the so-
called Stream Protection Rule, States are required to meet new
conditions that apply not only to listed species, but also
species that FWS has proposed for listing, circumventing the
notice and comment rulemaking process required for listing new
species under the ESA. Even worse, the proposed rule would give
FWS unprecedented veto authority over State permits.
Under NEPA, cooperating agencies are supposed to be granted
access to information and an opportunity to provide comments
while an Environmental Impact Statement is being developed.
Eleven States became cooperating agencies for the EIS for this
rule. However, OSM shut them out of the process, failing to
provide any information to States since early 2011. As a
result, OSM developed a rule for a State administered program
without adequate State involvement.
The unauthorized provisions of this proposed rule will have
a significant adverse effect on mining States. It will add so
many layers of bureaucracy that mining permits will halt, and
even current permits could be reopened, causing severe economic
impacts. In comments she filed on this proposed rule in
September of last year, Senator Capito noted that finalizing
this rule would result in an annual loss in coal production
valued at $14 billion to $20 billion and losses in Federal and
State revenues of $4 billion to $5 billion a year.
The coal industry has already lost tens of thousands of
jobs in the past few years. We must be cautious to ensure we
don't regulate into extinction one of the most important energy
sources for this country.
So, this is the situation created by this proposed ``stream
protection rule'':
State water quality standards under the Clean Water Act
will be superseded by new standards that OSM creates.
The Corps of Engineer's permits under section 404 of the
Clean Water Act will be superseded by new conditions imposed by
OSM.
A permit that a State coal mining permitting authority
wants to issue can be vetoed by the Fish and Wildlife Service
based on impact to species that are not even listed under the
Endangered Species Act.
All this Federal overreach is going to impose severe
hardship on coal miners and the States they live in.
I want to thank our witnesses for being here today.
Unfortunately one of our witnesses, Director Todd Parfitt, was
unable to make it to today's hearing due to weather issues. I
ask unanimous consent that his statement be placed in the
record. Thankfully, we have Mr. Larkin here with us today who
was able to step in last minute. I look forward to hearing all
of your testimonies.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Parfitt follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BARBARA BOXER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Senator Boxer. Thanks so much.
Mr. Chairman, could I have an additional minute, as you
did?
Senator Inhofe. Sure.
Senator Boxer. So we have 6 minutes on the clock. Thanks.
Because this is really important. Today the majority have
decided to hold a hearing on the Department of the Interior's
proposed Stream Protection Rule. Now, the proposed rule is
going to revise 30-year-old regulations based on significant
scientific advances on the impacts of surface coal mining on
human health. That is important, human health, and the
environment.
Now, coal mining regulations under the Surface Mining
Control and Reclamation Act, that generally falls under another
committee's jurisdiction, but I appreciate the fact that my
chairman, who I respect and admire, feels there are
implications in our jurisdiction, so we are having this
hearing. And I am glad, in a sense, that we are because I have
a lot to say about it.
There is a growing body of peer reviewed science that shows
that people living downstream from coal mines face a greater
risk of cancer, birth defects and premature death. Let me say
it again. We are not just talking about some problem far from
Earth. A growing body of peer reviewed science shows people
living downstream from coal mines face a greater risk of
cancer, birth defects, and premature deaths. We have a witness
who will testify to that.
So what does the majority want to do? It is clear. They
want to disrupt a rule that is going to protect the people of,
particularly, Appalachia. The Stream Protection Rule will place
limits on the dumping of mine waste in headwater streams and
mountaintop removal coal mines, one of the most destructive
mining practices used today.
This practice involves literally cutting the tops off of
mountains and dumping the excess rock and soil into headwater
streams that are critical for flood control, water quality, and
the health of some of the Nation's most precious ecosystems.
This isn't made up, this is factual. Mountaintop removal coal
mining has already destroyed more than 500 mountains, buried
more than 2,000 miles of headwater streams, and polluted
thousands of miles of downstream surface waters.
And the mining waste associated with these sites can
include a host of toxic chemicals. Let's hear what these
chemicals are. I am sure you would love to drink a glass of
water with these chemicals in them: selenium, arsenic, lead.
How about giving it out to my colleagues here? None of them
would drink that, because these toxins can leach into streams
and rivers, severely degrading water quality.
For the first time, the proposed Stream Protection Rule
coal mining companies to collect baseline data on water quality
and require mining companies to monitor streams during mining
and reclamation to ensure that downstream waters are not
harmed.
Having this information is critical for affected citizens
to know if their sources of drinking water are being polluted.
We just faced the Flint, Michigan, travesty, tragedy--whatever
you want to call it, either one of those words. Don't you think
the people here have the right to know what is in their water?
You would if it was your grandkid. I certainly would if it was
mine. And I certainly feel it is fair to the people there to
know what toxins are in their drinking water.
So what does this Environment Committee do on the heels of
Flint? First, we pass an amendment last time that says, oh, you
can take pesticides and spray them on water sources that are
for drinking water; sure, you don't need a permit. They passed
here. They put it in the Sportsmen's Act. In the base of the
Sportsmen's Act it says fishing tackle that has lead can never
be regulated under TSCA. So they have done those two things.
And today is another wonderful thing this Environment Committee
is doing. My friend, he and I, I hope we can get back to
infrastructure issues, because on that we work so well.
Senator Inhofe. WRDA is coming up.
Senator Boxer. WRDA is coming up, and it makes me so happy.
But in the meantime, here we go. On the heels of Flint, yet
another move by this so-called Environment Committee to say
that let's disrupt a rule.
Now, the Department of Interior is doing the right thing--
regardless of what I think we are going to hear--to modernize
its mining rules, and we are going to say the coal industry has
to be consistent with national standards of drinking water
protection. The poisoning, again, by lead of children in Flint
has shaken the Nation. We can laugh all we want. This is the
time for us to protect the waters that our kids drink, not to
just say, oh, let's just walk away from this rule that is going
to strengthen the power of the community to know what they are
drinking. So stopping the Stream Protection Rule is not right.
Now, we are going to hear from the people of the community.
I am so glad we have that witness. And here is the deal. No
rule is perfect. I am sure this one isn't perfect. I have heard
from environmental groups and health organizations that think
this is a weak sister of a rule; it is not good. And then we
have the other side that says forget about it, we don't need
any rule, this is just perfect. So obviously there is room for
us to work together.
We can craft something that is going to make sense. But to
disrupt this rule as we are looking at the poor people of Flint
and what this is costing them in brain damage, in money, and in
fear, to disrupt a rule that is protective of the people I
think is the wrong thing to do.
Thank you.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Senator Boxer.
Mr. Pizarchik, you are recognized for your opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF JOSEPH PIZARCHIK, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF SURFACE
MINING RECLAMATION AND ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE
INTERIOR
Mr. Pizarchik. Thank you, Chairman Inhofe, Ranking Member
Boxer, and other members of the Committee for the opportunity
to be here today. I am here to testify how the proposed Stream
Protection Rule complements the Clean Water Act and Endangered
Species Act and fills the water protection gaps as required by
the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act.
The proposed Stream Protection Rule includes reasonable and
straightforward reforms to modernize 30-plus-year-old coal
mining rules. We recognize that coal mining and coal-fired
electricity production will continue to be a part of our energy
mix for decades. The proposed rule incorporates current
science, technology, and modern mining practices while also
safeguarding communities and protecting our streams from the
long-term effects of pollution and environmental degradation
that endanger public health and undermine the future economic
viability of coal country communities.
The proposed rule was available for public review and then
comment for over 3 months. We held six public hearings,
extended the public comment period, and received more than
94,000 comments, adding to the more than 50,000 comments
previously provided by States and other stakeholders.
We have learned a great deal over the past three decades
about the impacts of coal mining and how to avoid or minimize
those impacts. The final rule will strike an appropriate
balance between protecting our water and the Nation's need for
coal. The rule will provide greater regulatory certainty to the
mining industry; it will improve consistency with the
Endangered Species Act and promote coordination and cooperation
with the agencies that implement the Clean Water Act.
It is important to note that Congress clearly delegated
protection of the waters of the United States to the
Environmental Protection Agency and also provided the Army
Corps of Engineers a role to play when fill will be placed in a
stream.
It is our expectation that the proposed rule, once
finalized, will fill regulatory gaps through a more complete
implementation of our legal obligations under SMCRA. Our rules
to fulfill the legal requirements of SMCRA will complement, and
not conflict with, the Clean Water Act requirements.
SMCRA specifically requires regulatory authorities to
protect water resources during coal mining, and these
protections go beyond the protections that are provided by the
Clean Water Act. Most notably, the Surface Mining Act requires
coal operators to minimize disturbances to the prevailing
hydrologic balance in the permit area and to prevent material
damage to the hydrologic balance outside the permit area.
It is also important to note that we are not changing our
longstanding rules that require mine operators to comply with
all applicable Clean Water Act requirements. The proposed rule
seeks to strike the right balance between fulfilling our
statutory obligations while providing the appropriate deference
to Clean Water Act regulatory authorities to fulfill their
duties. The final SPR will do so in a complementary and
effective manner.
With regard to the Endangered Species Act, the proposed
rule would codify the existing process contained in the 1996
biological opinion where coal mining may adversely affect
species listed or threatened as endangered. These provisions
will ensure that the incidental take coverage provided by the
1996 bi-op is effective for the State regulator and the mine
operator when the permit is issued.
Based on comments we received, the final rule will likely
include changes and modifications to further clarify and make
it easier for people to understand there are no conflicts with
the Clean Water Act or the Endangered Species Act.
OSMRE's analysis and outreach to stakeholders identified
seven key areas for improvement to fulfill the requirements of
the law. They include a better understanding of baseline
environmental conditions at mining sites; improved monitoring
during mining and reclamation; clarity on what constitutes
material damage to the hydrologic balance outside the permit
area; and enhanced material handling and restoration
requirements designed to take advantage of the advances over
the last 30 years, which will enable responsible operators and
regulators to better protect people and their water from the
adverse effects of coal mining; the proposed rule would protect
several thousand miles of stream.
The costs contained in the draft Regulatory Impact Analysis
compared to the industry total revenues are a fraction of
those. The proposed rule is what Americans expect from their
Government, a modern and balanced approach to energy
development that protects their water. It provides coalfield
communities an economic future. The proposed Stream Protection
Rule provides State regulators the flexibility to tailor their
protections to individual mines or regions. The rule will
reduce conflicts, reduce costs, enhance coordination among
regulators, and provide for a more effective implementation of
the Surface Mining Act, the Clean Water Act, and the Endangered
Species Act.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Pizarchik follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Inhofe. Mr. Pizarchik, section 702 of SMCRA says
that you have no authority to supersede--reading out of the
statute now--amend, or modify any other Federal law, including
laws relating to water quality. You just heard my opening
statement. I mentioned three specific areas how the Stream
Protection Rule would expand the Federal authority to do
exactly what the law says not to do. Three things: by
superseding State authority of water quality standards under
section 303, by superseding the Corps' authority to issue
permits to fill in streams under 404, and by expanding the Fish
and Wildlife authority under the Endangered Species Act.
Now, I am going to ask you this for the record, because I
used the rest of my time by verbalizing it. So the question I
am going to ask you is, do you claim that your rule won't have
these effects, and how would you claim that? That would be for
the record.
Farrell Cooper, a mining company in Oklahoma, I was there
last Friday. I think quite often the regulators here who are
usurping more powers from State and from local government and
from other departments, if they just go out and see the people
out there. Half of Farrell Cooper right now, they are
unemployed already as a result of what is anticipated from
this. Despite the fact that the State controls its own surface,
nonetheless, that is happening.
Now, we talked about this issue before. You claim that they
haven't appropriately done reclamation. But I can tell you that
the reclamation is good. The Oklahoma Department of Mines
agrees with me and Farrell Cooper, and your own Department of
Interior Office of Hearings and Appeals and the courts agree
with me and Farrell Cooper, and they disagree with your
interpretation of the law. The company spent millions of
dollars fighting your accusations in multiple lawsuits, and in
the process they have had to lay off half of their work force,
and these are good paying jobs.
Now you are trying to bypass the courts and win those
lawsuits with the regulations that we are talking about today,
which would overturn 35 years of legal precedence relating to
how reclamation is done.
I would like to ask you why don't we just resolve this
issue in Federal court? Would you be willing--would you agree
to just support moving the case to the Federal District Court
so a fair trial with a qualified judge could be heard? What do
you think?
Mr. Pizarchik. Senator, I appreciated when we visited the
Rock Island mine together summer before last to look at the
reclamation that the Arkansan Mining Company did and how it did
not restore the land to AOC, to the detriment of that farmer
with those 45-foot spoil piles and 100-foot deep water filled
impoundments. And you are right, there are three litigation
cases out there. I can't comment on the--it is Department
policy not to comment on litigation, and we would certainly
entertain what you are saying. I would have to take that back
to the Department, talk with our lawyers and talk with the
Department of Justice because you are right, two of those cases
where the court ruled in accordance with what you said; the
third case actually agrees with us, and that one is still being
briefed, and they are all under appeal, and we will have to see
where the courts go.
Senator Inhofe. In terms of fulfilling this request, you
would consider doing this? You say take it to the appropriate
people. Who are they?
Mr. Pizarchik. Senator, I can't make that decision here; I
will need to talk to our lawyers and everybody else. I believe
we ought to allow the courts to continue to fulfill their
duties in accordance with the law; that is the way it is set
up. There are three appeals before them, and I think it is
appropriate for them to go through that process. As I
understand the law, once that decision is made, there would be
opportunities for appeal to a higher level court. So I think it
would be premature to short circuit the current administrative
and legal process.
Senator Inhofe. So your answer to that question is no, in
terms of doing it now?
Mr. Pizarchik. I think we should allow the process to
continue in the courts.
Senator Inhofe. All right. Now, let me ask you is there
anything ambiguous about this language in 702? Let me just read
it from the statute. It says ``Nothing in this chapter shall be
construed as superseding, amending, modifying, or reopening the
Mining and Minerals Policy Act of 1970, the National
Environmental Policy Act of 1969, or any of the following
Acts,'' and then it lists all eight of the acts that fall under
this category. Is that ambiguous?
Mr. Pizarchik. I do not find it ambiguous, no.
Senator Inhofe. OK. I want staff to take this over and give
it to Mr. Pizarchik. One of the problems we have is getting
information from the bureaucracies and making requests, even in
those that are in the jurisdiction of this committee. In this
case, the documents that we have had, all documents, we are
going to request in writing that within 2 weeks you send to
us--now, we have made this request before, my junior Senator
and I have both made the request in June and September, and we
haven't heard back yet. So the request is for all documents
including, but not limited to, e-mails, memoranda, legal
analysis concerning communications between the OSM reclamation
and enforcement, including yourself, and the Office of
Solicitor regarding the overturn of the decision in November
2010 and the issuance of INE-35. No. 2, all documents
including, but not limited to, e-mails, memos, and legal
analysis concerning the communications to or from Director
Pizarchik, yourself, about the INE-26, including February 2015
and the decision to rescind INE-26.
Now, will you commit to getting this information for us,
for this Committee?
Mr. Pizarchik. Senator, I am aware of those document
requests, and it is my understanding that the Department has
already provided several thousand pages of documents to the
Committee and that we are working to continue to provide
comments and to supplement those responses, and I anticipate
that we will be providing supplemental responses, including
additional responsive documents, very shortly. I would have to
get back to you regarding any specific details on that, but we
are continuing to process the requests.
Senator Inhofe. Well, the requests, though, are very
specific. What we have received is not specific, so we thought
we would just be more specific. I am just asking for you to
stay to us you will supply us this information within 2 weeks.
Mr. Pizarchik. Senator, I have not read these comments.
Senator Inhofe. I just read them to you.
Mr. Pizarchik. Well, I would be happy to take them back to
the Department for evaluation so that we can provide an
appropriate response.
Senator Inhofe. Well, you have had the request from myself,
several others, including my junior Senator, for months now, so
you have had plenty of time to look over. In fact, the very
wording that you are looking at there you have seen before. So
I ask you a third time will you give us this information in 2
weeks?
Mr. Pizarchik. We will continue to process the document
requests and provide the appropriate response documents as soon
as we can. We have already provided several thousand pages and
we will continue to do so.
Senator Inhofe. Senator Boxer.
Senator Boxer. Thanks. Again I would ask that I have 2
minutes more.
Senator Inhofe. I was 1 minute over.
Senator Boxer. You were 2:43 over.
Senator Inhofe. You can have 2:44, how is that?
Senator Boxer. OK, 2:44.
Senator Sullivan. Do we all get 2 minutes more?
Senator Boxer. No. This is our thing.
Senator Inhofe. Well, no, no. In that unanimous consent,
the next two that will be heard will be Senator Markey and
Senator Sullivan. I ask unanimous consent that they also be
given 7 minutes instead of 5 minutes.
Senator Boxer. Absolutely.
Senator Inhofe. OK. No objection. Then we go back to 5
minutes.
Senator Boxer. I want to hear from all of them at great
length.
All right.
Senator Sullivan. We can do it in 5.
Senator Boxer. I can't, because there is so much to talk
about, there really is.
Now, just in general I want to make a comment, that the
majority party here, with all due respect, this is their
philosophy, they demonize anybody in the Federal Government, my
view, who is trying to help protect the environment and public
health. They demonize. And I will tell you why it is wrong. But
I will wait until they are finished.
[Pause.]
Senator Inhofe. Go ahead.
Senator Boxer. I waited.
OK, I am back.
Senator Inhofe. Oh, good.
Senator Boxer. You so don't want to hear this.
The majority demonizes any Federal agency that tries to
help; it doesn't matter if it is the EPA, they demonize. It
doesn't matter if it is you, sir. Do not take what they throw
at you personally. They don't mean it personally at all. They
just don't want any involvement. And here is what is so odd.
I remember the BP oil spill. It went on and on. Senator
Markey and I, and I remember Senator Nelson, we were so
frustrated, along with the Senators from Louisiana, both
Republican and Democrat, because no one could seem to come up
with the answer. You know who did? The Secretary of the
Interior, Steven Chu. Because he got in there, he took charge
because he was very smart and knew. He happened to be from the
Federal Government, and he found out there was a technology
that needed to be used to really look at this spill in a better
way. Once they figured it out, they stopped it.
Now, we have a situation in California right now. I am so
grateful to my colleagues because we now set up a task force
headed by the DOE to come in and look. So why do we always have
to demonize somebody?
The fact is wisdom does not reside with the Federal
Government, with the State government, with the local
government, with anybody on this panel. All wisdom doesn't
reside. We all have some good ideas. So when we get together
and work together, it is fine.
Now, it is my understanding, sir, that you took a lot of
input from the public as you put this together. Is that
correct? Could you describe the process a bit?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes, Senator, we did. We started off with an
advanced notice of proposed rulemaking, which was preceded by
some stakeholder outreach sessions. We met. I had 15 different
meetings with industry, environmental community, citizens. Now,
we have the advanced notice of proposed rulemaking with public
comments on that. We also did two public scoping sessions, one
where we had nine public meetings across the country. Those
processes generated well in excess of 50,000 comments. We
shared drafts of the EIA with the cooperating agencies and
received many, many comments from the States, numerous comments
that were very helpful and are reflected in the final rule. And
we proposed the rule and we received about 94,000 more comments
in addition to what we have.
The process that we had done has been unprecedented for
this agency, and the amount of comments we have had is far in
excess of any rulemaking that we have done in the past.
Senator Boxer. And sir, isn't it true that your rule has
been criticized by the left and the right? In other words,
people who want to see it be more stringent and those who say
you are duplicative and you are surpassing the ESA, as my
chairman has said? Isn't it true that those are the comments
you received?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes, Senator, they are.
Senator Boxer. I think that is an important point. You did
something right. Everybody is mad at you. You know, you tried
to find some ground that you could defend and that you could
truly say is a compromise, and I thank you for that.
Now, in your job, you are the Director of the Office of
Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement. Isn't it true that
you are required under the law to protect the environment?
Isn't that actually in the law?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes, Senator. If you look at the Surface
Mining Act, there are numerous provisions in it that talk about
the purposes of the law and what I am supposed to do. It is
protecting the people and the environment from the adverse
effects of coal mining, preventing the pollution from coal
mining. And we have numerous provisions. I also have to strike
a balance with coal. But the law is an environmental protection
and public protection law.
Senator Boxer. Fine. This is important, because when you
get criticized by my friends here, they are my friends, I love
them dearly. When you get criticized by them, you have to
understand what they are asking you to do, in my opinion, is to
walk away from your responsibility. And isn't it true, sir, if
you did that, wouldn't you be the subject of lawsuits? Let's
say somebody living in Appalachia got cancer, and it was a
cluster, and it came from--whether it was arsenic or lead,
there were problems, you were sued. Wouldn't you have to mount
a pretty good defense if you did nothing, if you walked away
from this challenge? We all know the challenge exists. Have you
not seen the health impacts?
Mr. Pizarchik. There have been a lot of studies documenting
health impacts, and we have been working to try to get a review
of those by the National Academy of Sciences. And yes, I
probably would be sued. Actually, I get sued all the time for
just about everything we did, so it would not be unusual. But
it would also be an abdication of my duty if I did not
promulgate rules that carry out and fully implement the
statute, and that is what I am trying to do.
Senator Boxer. Well, thank you. And I compliment you from
the bottom of my heart, because we have seen in Flint, from the
State government there, and even the EPA that, yes, told Flint
but didn't do enough, in my view. We have seen what happens
when people in positions such as yours get cold feet and back
away, and it isn't a pretty story. And I am so pleased that you
have done what you have done and that you are standing up for
what you have done, and that you have listened to all the
voices. And I know you look at the economics of it as well. The
fact is the economics that were cited by my friend and that
will be cited from my friend from West Virginia, and I have
seen those surveys, those studies, they have been refuted, and
I think our witness here is going to show that those studies
are not accurate.
The bottom line is people have to be kept safe.
Now, let me ask you a couple of other questions. When you
make this rule, you look at the health impacts, you look at the
economic impacts, you look at everything, is that right?
Mr. Pizarchik. We look at, yes, mostly those. Primarily,
under this rule, it is about protecting the water for people so
that water is included, the critters aren't poisoned.
Senator Boxer. Let's go there. Your function in this rule
is to protect people from drinking water that could harm them,
is that correct?
Mr. Pizarchik. That is one of the roles of it. Also
protecting the environment is another, yes.
Senator Boxer. Yes. Well, protecting the environment means
that you have fish in there that aren't contaminated, is that
correct?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes.
Senator Boxer. Sir, I just want to say to you, regardless
of what you hear, you just stand up and you continue to do
that. And when people look at you and say, sir, you shouldn't
do this, just tell them to look at those families in Flint.
This is what happens when we don't do our job. And this
committee, the Environment Committee, should not be questioning
this rule; we should be working to make it workable.
Thank you.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Senator Boxer.
Senator Sullivan.
Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, Director, for appearing today. I always feel
the need to start my comments off with a little prefatory
remark. I have the utmost respect for the Ranking Member here.
We all want clean water. We all want clean air. We all want
healthy kids. And I actually think that States are pretty good
at this. I think my State, for example, Alaska, has the
cleanest water, cleanest air, best managed fish and wildlife
certainly in America; cleaner than California, cleaner than
Delaware, cleaner than New Jersey. And it is State officials
that do that. So we all want that.
But what is always surprising to me on this Committee is
that we also need agencies to follow the law. You have
everybody from Laurence Tribe saying burning the Constitution
should not be part of our energy and environmental
responsibilities. And I have a lot of experience with SMCRA and
what we call ASMCRA in Alaska, which is the State version of
SMCRA, but this is classic Obama administration action, and you
guys are all part of it. You can't pass a law, so you break a
law with a regulation. The States that are impacted are almost
100 percent against it, which you will get sued on this one,
trust me. And then you say it is driven by science, and I am
going to get into that, because with regard to Alaska you
didn't cite one scientific study that relates to my State, one
of the biggest coal reserves in the country, when it is really
a power grab and politics. Thousands of new pages of regs.
Then there is this claim that it is partisan.
Mr. Chairman, for the record, I would like to submit the
State of Alaska's letter from our Governor, who is an
Independent, our lieutenant Governor, who is a Democrat, who
are fully, fully opposed to this rule.
Senator Inhofe. Without objection.
[The referenced information follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Sullivan. So it is not partisan. The concern is
federalism and the law. It is not the environment. We all want
a clean environment.
Again, my State has cleaner water and cleaner air than any
State in the country. And it is not because you are helping; it
is because State officials do it.
So there is no demonizing here. The problem is when a
Federal agency doesn't follow the law, it is our responsibility
to make sure that doesn't happen. And what I am always amazed
about is how often my colleagues on the other side of the aisle
say, fine, go ahead, violate a Federal law, violate the
Constitution. But Americans are starting to get really, really
tired of it.
So let me go into a couple things on process. You talked
about the process.
Alaska is one of the largest coal reserves in the country.
Did you go to Alaska in terms of public hearings for this rule?
Mr. Pizarchik. No, sir, we did not.
Senator Sullivan. OK. Why? Did you go to any State west of
the Mississippi?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes.
Senator Sullivan. How many times? Once.
Mr. Pizarchik. I believe it was twice. There was a hearing
in St. Louis----
Senator Sullivan. I believe it was once.
Mr. Pizarchik [continuing]. And also in Denver.
Senator Boxer. Let me him answer the question.
Senator Inhofe. Come on, Barbara, don't do that.
Senator Boxer. You don't want people to have----
Senator Sullivan. Did you have any studies citing Alaska in
your entire proposed rule?
Mr. Pizarchik. Senator, if you look at what we are
proposing----
Senator Sullivan. Just answer the question. I have a bunch
of questions.
Mr. Pizarchik. I am attempting to answer that. Yes, the
baseline data needs to be gathered everywhere. Just because we
don't have baseline data does not necessarily mean that mining
is not causing problems there. I have been across the country,
and I have seen water pollution in Colorado----
Senator Sullivan. I am sorry, you are not answering the
questions. Do you have any studies citing Alaska coal in your
rule? No. The answer is no.
So let me go on to another question. My Governor had
requested, again, he is an Independent, that you did 5-year
rulemaking, thousands of pages, and you gave States 60 days to
comment. Do you think that was fair?
Mr. Pizarchik. Senator, they had over 100 days, over 3 and
a half months, to review the documents and to provide comments,
and we had extended the comment period as well.
Senator Sullivan. No, initially you provided 60 days, isn't
that right?
Mr. Pizarchik. Initially we provided a public comment
period of 60 days.
Senator Sullivan. Do you think that is fair?
Mr. Pizarchik. And we extended that. I believe----
Senator Sullivan. Three thousand pages, 5 years in the
making, 60 days to comment? Do you think that is fair?
Mr. Pizarchik. I believe it was. Based on the quality of
the comments that I have seen, it is clear that the States were
able to read that.
Senator Sullivan. Let me ask another. I am going to get a
little more legal on you here. Section 101(f) of SMCRA, do you
know what section 101(f) states?
Mr. Pizarchik. Not off the top of my head, but I have it
right here, too.
Senator Sullivan. Let me read it to you. So section 101(f)
of SMCRA states, ``The primary government responsibility for
developing, authorizing, issuing, and enforcing regulations for
surface mining and reclamation operations subject to this
chapter shall rest with the States.'' You should be very
familiar with that. SMCRA is a very interesting statute because
a lot of statutes provide veto power of the Federal Government
over State programs. But SMCRA specifically did not. The
primacy of regulatory issuance and enforcement lies with--
according to section 101(f), lies with which entity, you or the
States?
Mr. Pizarchik. As you indicated, the Surface Mining Act is
very complicated. It imposes upon me the obligation to
establish the minimum Federal standards across the country.
Senator Sullivan. Correct.
Mr. Pizarchik. And under the section that you cited it does
give States that authority. Now, you need to go a little bit
further, because out of the 24 States that have primacy, about
half of them have State laws that prohibit the State regulators
from implementing rules that are more protective then the
Federal minimum standards.
Senator Sullivan. I just want to make it clear. For the
record, SMCRA provides States--I just read it. 101(f), the
primary government responsibility on developing, authorizing,
issuing, and implementing regs belongs with the States. And yet
you are making a rule that goes into essentially the ability to
nullify, so let me get into that issue a little bit.
Are you familiar with the letter that was sent to you by
the State of Alaska on August 2nd, 2012 from the Department of
Natural Resources? I was commissioner at the time. Let me
describe it. It was OSM, who the State of Alaska had worked
closely with for years, coming to the State of Alaska and
saying there has been a permit issued by the State for 20
years. We now want you to pull it. So the State of Alaska, when
I was a commissioner, looked at the legal research, worked with
West Virginia, and we politely told you to go pound sand, that
you didn't have that authority. Do you think you have the
authority to look at permits that have been issued by States
and retroactively nullify them? Is there anything remotely in
SMCRA that gives you that authority?
Senator Inhofe. Senator Sullivan, you are over your time.
We had given you----
Senator Sullivan. Oh, I thought, Mr. Chairman, we were
going to do 2 minutes after.
Senator Inhofe. You have already used those.
Senator Boxer. Time flies.
Senator Sullivan. May I ask one final question, Mr.
Chairman?
The D.C. Circuit says----
Senator Boxer. I object unless you give that extra time to
my friend over there. Is that all right?
Senator Sullivan. Oh, I would be glad to.
Senator Boxer. Well, it is up to my Chairman.
Senator Inhofe. OK, without objection.
Senator Sullivan. I just want that nullification question
is a really important one, and let me help you with it. The
D.C. Circuit, talking about this issue in a 1981 decision, said
administrative and judicial appeals of permit decisions are
matters of State jurisdiction in which the Secretary of
Interior plays no role.
Your rule provides for the ability for the Federal
Government to nullify State permitting decisions, and that has
been clearly ruled by the courts and in the law that say you
don't have that power. Can you just address that issue,
nullification?
Mr. Pizarchik. Thank you, Senator. If you look at the
statute as a whole, what it provides is that if States want to
be the primary regulatory authority, they do so subject to the
oversight of Office of Surface Mining, Reclamation and
Enforcement. That includes everything that they do under the
law. And there is plenty of case law out there that upholds our
ability to look at performance standards after the fact,
whether a State regulatory authority made a mistake. And if you
look at that statutory provision about that permit you are
talking about, the law says that if the mining company fails to
activate the mining within 3 years, their permit shall
terminate.
Senator Inhofe. All right. Let me just go ahead and
interrupt this. Confession is good for the soul, Senator Boxer,
and I confess I goofed. One of the reasons I wanted to do this,
Senator Sullivan has an interesting background. It is not just
that he was attorney general, but he was also commissioner of
natural resources, and I knew that he was going to take longer.
So I apologize to the other members.
What we are going to do is have a second round, and those
individuals who are just taking 5 minutes now can take an
additional 3 minutes if they want to stay.
Senator Boxer. Good. But my understanding is he----
Senator Inhofe. Oh, yes, yes. Don't feel obligated,
however, Senator Markey, to necessarily do----
[Laughter.]
Senator Boxer. Senator, feel obligated.
Senator Inhofe. Senator Markey.
Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very much.
The principal reason why we are here is mountaintop removal
mining, and it is one of the single most environmentally
destructive practices on Earth. The streams in the Appalachian
region are being buried at an estimated rate of 120 miles per
year, and the regulations governing this harmful mining
practice are more than 30 years old.
But more than destroying the health of the environment,
this mining practice is destroying the health of the residents
in local communities. There are mountains of evidence that
mountaintop removal mining is significantly harming the health
of the residents in these areas, and it is well past time for
the Interior Department to update these regulations to ensure
that we can protect the health of local communities, our
environment, and our climate, and I am pleased and proud that
the Interior Department is engaged in the process of issuing
strong new rules that will help protect streams and the people
and their health in the communities that surround them from
mountaintop mining.
So, Director Pizarchik, the Surface Mining Control and
Reclamation Act of 1997, which I will now refer to as SMCRA
just so anyone who is listening knows what we are talking
about, lays out a number of purposes of the Act aimed at
lessening the impacts of mining on the environment.
Specifically, it is intended to establish ``a nationwide
program to protect society and the environment from the adverse
effects of surface coal mining operations and to assure that
surface coal mining operations are so conducted as to protect
the environment.''
Isn't the Interior Department Stream Protection Rule
necessary to fulfill the Department's statutory obligations
under the law?
Mr. Pizarchik. Absolutely, Senator.
Senator Markey. So it doesn't go beyond your authority, but
in fact it is an exercise of your authority and your
responsibility to protect the environment and the health of
those who live near these streams, is that correct?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes, Senator.
Senator Markey. If you did not in fact take these actions,
given what we now know 30 years later, you would not actually
be fulfilling your responsibilities in the job which you have
right now, is that correct?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes, sir.
Senator Markey. So would the Department's proposed Stream
Protection Rule protect the environment and local communities
by reducing the number of streams that are buried or adversely
affected?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes, sir, that was the expected outcome, and
we expected there would be several thousand miles of streams
that will have been protected.
Senator Markey. That will be protected. And as a result of
your protection of them, it will reduce the amount of toxic
pollution which will go into the streams, that otherwise would
be in the streams, that could have adverse impacts on human
beings, is that correct?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes, Senator.
Senator Markey. And you consider that to be your
responsibility, to protect against deadly toxic materials going
into streams, going into rivers in America?
Mr. Pizarchik. Not only do I believe that, but that is
specifically set forth a number of times in SMCRA.
Senator Markey. So that is why it is hard to understand why
people would object to this. I mean, we just learned the
lessons once again in Flint, Michigan. But going back all the
way to the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland, we see what happens
when there is a callous indifference to using river streams as
just dumping grounds, toilets, where arsenic, other dangerous
materials are just poured into these bodies of water.
Ultimately, it comes back to haunt, to hurt the health of
families.
And we can see in the pictures night after night of how
horrified ordinary families are in Flint, Michigan, but we know
that is not the only place in America where there is a danger
from lead in pipes. This is just one example. But the faces of
the people in that community are saying pretty much we thought
the Government was protecting us. We wouldn't believe that
water could come out of faucets that could harm our children.
We wouldn't believe anyone would allow the water that our
children are exposed to could have these dangerous materials in
them. And you could almost see them saying we trusted you; we
wouldn't think that you would allow something so dangerous to
occur without the protections being put in place.
So there have been many studies that have been done
documenting the adverse health impacts associated with living
in areas affected by mountaintop removal mining operations. Did
your Department take into account the health impacts associated
with this type of mining in developing your new rule?
Mr. Pizarchik. Senator, as part of our process, we looked
at all the science that we could get our hands on as far as
what the impacts of coal mining were in order to factor that
into what we were proposing.
Senator Markey. And what was the conclusion which you
reached?
Mr. Pizarchik. We have concluded, based on the developments
in science, that we are continuing to have streams that are
adversely impacted, water that is adversely impacted by coal
mining, both groundwater and surface water, and that we need to
up our game, to modernize our rules to better protect surface
and groundwaters from the adverse effects of mining.
Senator Markey. Thank you. So the streams in the
Appalachian region are the headwaters for the drinking water
supply for tens of millions of Americans, so it is not just
some isolated issue that we are talking about. The impact is on
tens of millions of people and their drinking water, and if
arsenic or selenium is going into that water, then there is a
danger to children, not just in that one location, but as it
flows down the water bodies that are near those headwaters.
So that is your essential concern, to protect the health
and well-being of families in our country?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes, Senator. And just to put it in
perspective, the headwaters of the Potomac River start in
Appalachia.
Senator Markey. Well, I think the water that we are
drinking right now should be checked immediately so that we
understand what the impact should be on those of us who are
here in this room today. It has to be an ongoing quest to
ensure that we have the highest quality drinking water. Flint,
Michigan, has just been the poster child for what can happen if
you forget the children in our country.
Thank you for all your good work.
Mr. Pizarchik. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Inhofe. Senator Capito.
Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, Mr. Pizarchik, for your service and for
working hard. I want to begin my statement by saying I live in
Appalachia, that place everybody is talking about. My home is 5
miles from an underground mine and a surface mine, maybe 10
miles. So I am in and around people and folks all the time;
they are my neighbors, friends, so I have a deep passion for
what we are talking about today.
I have been very frustrated with the Administration because
we have been fighting for affordable, reliable energy that does
all the above. We have pushed back on the Clean Power Plan
because of what it does to the economics of certain regions,
picking winners and losers. And now we have the Stream
Protection Rule, and I would like to just talk about some of
the economic effects.
You got into this just very minimally in a response to a
question, and I would like to preface, too, that living there,
being there, clean water, clean air are as important to us as
it is anybody else. So I have a chart here that says that the
new Stream Protection Rule in Appalachia, which we have been
referring to quite a bit, is up to about 64,000, $15 million in
lost revenues, and many mining jobs lost and at risk. Also, the
production of coal will go down significantly, as it has been
doing.
Our State is now $300 million underwater, State of West
Virginia $300 million underwater in our State budget. We have
had to cut our education budget because our tax revenues,
principally from coal, have gone down so much. This is the
second hearing that we have had, because I am also on the
Energy Committee as well, where we had testimony much the same
that we have today.
So I just feel like this rule is just so broad and
overreaching, and we have talked about it minimally here, too,
reaching into the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species
Act. So one question I would like to say is we have talked a
lot about the States' responsibility here and what kind of
input the States had. We had testimony over in the Energy
Committee that it was rebuffed by OSM, and a lot of States
signed on originally to be part of the partnerships to develop
a rule that made sense for States and for the Federal--but then
my understanding is that many States pulled out of that
partnership--Indiana, Kentucky, Montana, New Mexico, Utah,
Alabama, West Virginia, and Texas.
And then in response to Senator Sullivan's question you
said that they were given 100 days, I think you said, to
respond, 60 days and then an extension after that, on a 3,000-
page rule. So I guess I would ask you why, in your opinion, did
the States pull out of this cooperative arrangement?
Mr. Pizarchik. Senator, thank you for the question. I too
grew up in Appalachia, in coal country.
Senator Capito. Right, Pennsylvania.
Mr. Pizarchik. And I have relatives and friends, people who
worked in the coal mines. Some of my classmates from school
worked in the coal mines. I am very sympathetic to people who
are losing their jobs, and I know how important coal jobs and
coal can be in certain parts of the community, and I have
traveled across the country, been in your States numerous
times. I have seen that.
As far as the States' motivation, I wouldn't speculate on
that.
Senator Capito. Well, wouldn't you see, if you have the
vast majority of States that are cooperating, who deal with
this every day, pulling out from any kind of cooperative
agreement certainly should have been a signal to you that this
was highly contentious and I think would have been, at least in
my case, an impetus to rethink the direction that you were
going.
Let me ask you this. What is the impact of this rule? We
heard about mountaintop. What is the impact of this rule, in
your opinion, on underground mines? There is a great concern
there this is going to eliminate a lot of production in
underground mines, which it will. We have already lost, just
last week, 2,000 jobs in the coal mine industry alone, most of
these underground mines. Can you answer that question?
Mr. Pizarchik. I could, yes, and that is an important point
to clarify because there is a misperception out there that this
rule would prohibit all long wall underground mining. That is
not the case. The term that we are defining, material damage to
the hydrologic balance outside the permit area, includes those
areas above underground mines, and what we are proposing is to
give teeth and effect to that part of the law so that
underground mining that would destroy those streams on the
surface will not allow those streams to be destroyed. So they
can do different types of underground mining.
And the statute has a provision in it that also provides--
it is my obligation that where reclamation cannot be
successfully done, that permits should not be issued for that.
From the analysis that our outside experts looked at, most of
the underground mining will be able to continue to go forward
on that. There are going to be some areas where you just can't
undermine because you are going to destroy the water resources,
the streams on the surface. That has always been the law. That
has been my experience in Pennsylvania. Some areas can be
mined; some areas cannot.
So there will be some impact on it, but it will not be a
major impact. And as the rules on classifying impacts that we
follow under this, I believe collectively the impacts on the
industry are going to be considered small. I think it is less
than 0.2 percent of production, and it is a fraction of the
total annual revenues of the industry.
Senator Capito. Let me ask you another question on the
balance. This is the big question that we get in this
Committee, and I think the Chairman and I join together to try
to talk a lot about the economic impacts of rulemaking in all
different areas. It is not so much the goal that any of us
would be rejecting. Who would be rejecting a goal of clean
water and clean air? Absolutely not. But sometimes it is just
not that simple, as you know; you are in the business of trying
to do that.
What kind of considerations in this rule, in this specific
rule, were made in terms of looking at the economic impacts? We
can talk about creation of pockets of poverty in my State that
are growing, the pessimism, the desolate attitude of my
Government is doing this to me, and nobody cares. So what kind
of balance do you look for here, and do you look for that?
Mr. Pizarchik. I am very concerned about those people who
lose their jobs and things of that nature, and yes, we do a
balance. The statute requires me to balance the interests of
protecting society, protecting the water resources while
ensuring there is sufficient coal supply to meet the country's
energy needs. As part of the NEPA process what we have done, we
hired outside experts to do that type of analysis; not relying
on my staff or my people, but other folks. And their analysis
was peer reviewed pursuant to the procedures and processes
established by the applicable rules.
That information was used in assessing the potential
impacts of changes that we were potentially considering.
Senator Capito. I am at the end. Can I get that
information, that NEPA review? Is that something that I could
see, the economic impact statement that they provided for you?
Mr. Pizarchik. That, I believe, is included in the draft
Environmental Impact Statement and is publicly available. Yes,
we can provide that. We have also prepared, in accordance with
the rules, a regulatory impact analysis. We would be happy to
provide that to you as well.
Senator Capito. Thank you. Thank you.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Senator Capito.
Senator Cardin.
Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
convening this hearing.
And thank you very much for your attendance and your
service, your public service. I would hope that all Members of
Congress want clean air and clean water, but we are judged by
our actions, not by our words, and each Congress has an
opportunity to add to that, and certainly not to take away from
the protections that we provide for clean air and clean water.
Clean water is vital to our economy, and I think we all can
acknowledge that. A child who has suffered from lead poisoning
as a result of not having safe drinking water, that child will
not reach his or her full potential, and it is tragic for the
individual, and it is tragic for our economy. The number of
premature deaths due to the quality of water, the number of
missed days at work because of tending to public health issues,
the number of missed days at school, the importance of industry
having sources of clean water for their products, all that adds
to the economy.
And as we are all bragging about being in Appalachia, my
State, of course, has in the western part of the Appalachia
region, and I have enjoyed camping out with my children and
skiing, and just enjoying one of the most beautiful places in
our country. And yes, recreation use depends upon clean water
and clean air, and that is a huge part of the growth of the
economic opportunities in the Appalachia region. So all that
cries out for you carrying out your responsibilities for clean
water.
Surface, underground, or mountaintop removal all have risks
involved in our environment, and we need to deal with that. So,
yes, I also want clean water from our streams in the Chesapeake
Bay, as many of those waters end up in the Chesapeake Bay of
Maryland and this region.
So my first question is it is difficult to repair the
damage once it is done, and I would like you to comment about
that. Mountaintop removal, we have seen major damages to
streams. Once it is caused, where are the challenges in trying
to clean up the results of the damage to our streams?
Mr. Pizarchik. Once you have caused the pollution,
typically, it is a long-term pollution problem, you cannot
eliminate it, and it often costs way more money to treat that
water than to prevent the pollution from occurring in the first
place. We are aware of some studies that were done where in the
mountaintop mining they filled in the valleys, and some of
these valley fills are decades old and they are still
discharging high levels of total dissolved solids. The only way
to take the total dissolved solids out is a reverse osmosis
treatment system, the one of which I am aware of was from
underground mines in West Virginia. It cost over $200 million
to build and $9 million to $18 million a year to operate. If
you are mining coal, you can't build too many of those and
continue to stay in business.
Selenium gets elevated on a lot of streams. To build a
bioreactors for those seleniums costs a couple of million
dollars, it is my understanding, in order to take out, and then
you have to constantly maintain it. It is a whole lot better to
prevent the problem.
The example I can give most effective is from my experience
in Pennsylvania with acid mine drainage. Until the State was
able to predict so you could prevent it, a lot of companies
went out of business because they couldn't afford to treat the
pollution they created.
Senator Cardin. So in the regulatory process, what are you
doing to preserve and protect buffer zone protections from
mining operations?
Mr. Pizarchik. The existing 100-foot provision is still
going to be in the rule. By creating the definition for
material damage to the hydrologic balance, that creates a
standard so that people can know what they are measured against
by creating the baseline of the stream data to collect that.
That helps inform the process so we know whether mining is
going to occur.
And while the Surface Mining Act allows people to mine
through streams, what we are creating is a standard in there
that they need to gather that baseline on the water quality,
the quantity, and the aquatic community, the critters living in
that stream, to be able to make a determination can they
restore that, and then proposing in our rule that they restore
the ecological and geologic function and the hydrologic
function of that stream. Let them make the business decision
can they do that.
Some streams can be rebuilt and repaired; some cannot. And
if you cannot do it, the law says the permit should not be
issued for it.
Senator Cardin. In the 111th Congress, Senator Alexander
and I introduced the Appalachia Restoration Act. It was an
effort to get a real handle on mountaintop removal, recognizing
the devastating impact that mountaintop removal coal operations
have on our environment. Not only destroyed streams; it
destroys landscape. It destroys forever. That legislation was
not enacted, but as a result of that legislation the
Administration took certain actions to control mountaintop
removal coal operations.
Could you explain what actions you will be taking in this
regulation, or how it will affect mountaintop removal? There
are many people who would like to see this practice totally
eliminated, including myself. I understand that you are not
taking that tack. Could you just explain to us where we are on
mountaintop removal?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes, Senator. Thank you for that question.
The statute allows mountaintop removal mining, and it sets
certain provisions for when it can be conducted. We are
proposing to change our rules to incorporate those statutory
provisions into that provision as well, also requiring that the
excess soil be put back and that the land be restored to
approximate original contour, as mentioned, that means put the
mountain back when it is done, and changing the bonding
requirements so that if the operator has an approved post-
mining land use, which the law allows, but they don't implement
it, then there is enough bond there to put the mountain back.
As well as the practice of it, by protecting those
downstreams and finding out what kind of resources and stuff
are living in the streams, having that the baseline to monitor,
to make sure that if they are creating those valley fields,
they are not creating pollution, because we need to know what
is in the stream because, frankly, I know a lot of people don't
want to hear it, but the days of line mining are over. We need
to put an end to that. We need to get the baseline data, figure
out what is there, measure the operation standards against that
to make sure that we are not creating more Flint Rivers.
Senator Cardin. Well, I appreciate that, and obviously
there are challenges in our political system. We understand
that. But the American people understand the importance of the
work that you are doing, and we thank you very much for your
service.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Senator Cardin.
Senator Barrasso, for 7 minutes.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pizarchik, I would like to turn to the National
Environmental Policy Act, NEPA. NEPA requires every Federal
agency to assess the environmental impacts that would result
from the agency's actions, actions like approving a permit,
issuing a new regulation. Now, a Federal agency assesses
environmental impacts in what is known as the Environmental
Impact Statement, the EIS. Prior to issuing an EIS, the Federal
agency is required, required to consult with other agencies,
including State agencies, State agencies which have special
expertise with respect to the action under consideration. The
Federal agency preparing the EIS is called the lead agency, and
then the other agencies are called the cooperating agencies.
Under NEPA, the lead agency is not only required to consult
with cooperating agencies; it must ensure that the
participation of the cooperating agencies is ``meaningful.''
So when your office began developing the so-called Stream
Protection Rule, it identified 10 State agencies as cooperating
agencies. Your office signed agreements with these agencies,
these 10 State agencies, in which your office pledged to
provide them with, No. 1, copies of key or relevant documents
underlying the EIS, signed a document pledging to provide them
with administrative drafts of the EIS, and signed a document
pledging to provide a reasonable time for review and comments.
That is your agency, your office.
Between then, January 2011, and the issuance of the
proposed rule in July 2015, your office did none of this. For 4
and a half years, your office shared neither the drafts of the
EIS nor the documents related to the EIS. During this time,
your office engaged in no meaningful consultation whatsoever
with the State agencies. It even ignored the States' repeated
requests for consultation.
In 2015, eight States felt they had no other choice but to
withdraw as cooperating agencies.
Now, Mr. Pizarchik, you have been Director of the Office of
Surface Mining since November 2009, before all this started, so
why have you allowed your staff to make a mockery of its
obligation under the National Environmental Policy Act, and
where does the law allow your agency to go dark for 4 and a
half years?
Mr. Pizarchik. Thank you, Senator, for that question. The
States have had a lot of input into this process, and we have
requested those States who had provided notice that they were
not going to continue to participate to reengage. I sent that
out in October of that year. I also sent out a request to the
Interstate Mining Compact Commission for them to reengage. They
declined. I have not heard back from the States.
Notwithstanding that, we have continued to reach out. We
are continuing to work with the States. The State regulatory
authorities that submitted comments, we have been meeting with
them. We have had, I believe, about 18 meetings with them over
the past several weeks, getting input from them on the proposed
rule and the comments that the provided. We stand ready to meet
with those. The Assistant Secretary has met with State folks as
well. She has been to Alaska; she has a trip planned for North
Dakota. We are continuing to provide outreach to the States.
Senator Barrasso. Well, let me be clear. Your agency did
not consult with the States for 4 and a half years, from
January 2011 until the issuance of the rule of July 2015. You,
sir, have made a mockery of this process. When, in February
2011, Governor Butch Otter of Idaho, a Republican, Chairman of
the Western Governors Association, as well as a Democrat, the
Governor of Washington, wrote to the Secretary of the Interior
about the rulemaking, they asked the Secretary to ensure that
your agency engaged States in a meaningful and substantial way.
The Secretary of the Interior, Secretary Salazar, wrote back
and said all cooperating agencies will have an additional
opportunity to review and comment on a preliminary draft EIS
statement before it is published for public review and comment.
Never happened. Never happened in 4 and a half years.
Why did your agency fail to honor Secretary Salazar's
specific commitment to cooperating State agencies?
Mr. Pizarchik. Senator, the States have had meaningful
input. We have received a lot of valuable comments from the
State regulatory authorities that has helped us craft this
proposed rule and informed the process on that, and we have
made a number of changes. We have continued to reach out to
them to meet, reengage on that, and that offer continues to be
open with them, and we continue to reach out to the States to
obtain State input on this rule as we go forward.
Senator Barrasso. With all due respect, your answer just
doesn't pass the smell test. Your agency did not consult with
the States between January 2011 and the issuance of the rule, 4
and a half years later. Secretary Salazar understood your
agency's obligations under NEPA. You continue to give excuses,
play this tired game of cat and mouse. It really is high time
for your agency to at least own up to its failure to follow the
National Environmental Protection Act and withdraw the rule
immediately.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[The referenced letter follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Senator Barrasso.
Senator Gillibrand.
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Do you agree that when evaluating the potential cost of a
regulation such as the Stream Protection Rule, we should ensure
that we are also factoring the costs of inaction, which could
include the costs that families face when their quality of life
is significantly impacted by polluted water, including the
health impacts and diseases associated with poor water quality
and the cost of restoring environmental damage if it is not
prevented? And can you discuss how the Stream Protection Rule
will address those types of costs and consequences?
Mr. Pizarchik. Thank you for that question, Senator
Gillibrand. There are rules out there that govern the type of
factors that we look at and costs that are included in an
impact analysis on it, and I think there are a lot of things
that ought to be included that sometimes the existing rule
process does not include, for instance like the avoided costs
if an operator, as I mentioned earlier, if they create
pollution, they have to perpetually treat that, and they are
creating pollution. But that is not a cost factor that goes
into the cost analysis, so in many ways we are actually
protecting the industry from these potential costs.
As far as costs on health and people, I don't know how to
put a value on someone's life, put a value on whether their
life has been shortened or something like that. I don't know
how that gets taken into the thought process. I would much
rather approach this to carry out my responsibilities to
implement the law to prevent the pollution from occurring in
the first place.
Senator Gillibrand. How has the science used to evaluate
the effect of mining operations on water quality evolved in the
past 30 years since the Stream Buffer Zone Rule was
implemented, and how has that influenced the need for this new
rule?
Mr. Pizarchik. We know a lot more today than we did 30
years ago when these regulations were developed. For instance,
we know that selenium can be mobilized from coal mining in
certain areas, and it gets into the water, bioaccumulates in
the aquatic community, causes deformities in those critters
living in the stream, and can be bioaccumulating in unsafe
levels for people who were to consume the fish for people that
were living in that particular area.
We also know that total dissolved solids--years ago we did
not know it was a problem. Even as recently as maybe 10 or 15
years ago we did not know total dissolved solids were having an
adverse impact. In my experience in Pennsylvania, at Dunkard
Creek, there was a huge fish kill, and it wasn't based on
baseline data that West Virginia had collected for those coal
mines or that my State had collected for those coal mines, it
was because people were seeing large fish washing up on the
shore and floating, and it was due to high levels of total
dissolved solids.
We have seen studies in the past few years downstream of
valley fills that were built sometimes several years or a
decade or more ago, and the only thing in that watershed is
that valley fill. No other human activities, and yet the
sensitive macro invertebrates, the bugs and communities that
live in there, they are gone. And then if you look at the fish,
there is less fish biomass in there, and it stands to reason
because if there is nothing to eat, there aren't going to be
any fish there. And we look at the control stream.
So we know more about that type of science and how to see
things that 30 years ago were not known to be a problem. What
we are proposing in this rule is to deal with that science and
also ask people to take a broader look, because I am sure there
are probably things that are in the water today that we have
not yet recognized as causing pollution problems, and we want
to provide the States the flexibility to develop those
standards at the State level, the mine level in order to
protect the water and their people.
Senator Gillibrand. Can you elaborate a little more further
on why you believe this proposed Stream Protection Rule is
necessary to fill regulatory gaps that can't be adequately
filled by relying on the States and the Clean Water Act alone?
Mr. Pizarchik. Yes. The Clean Water Act has had a lot of
success over the years, but its primary point is measuring or
setting effluent limits at the point where the pollution or the
water is discharged from the mine into the stream, to meet
those limits here. They don't look at a cumulative loading of
that water until the stream becomes impaired, polluted. Well,
from our standpoint, my law says that we have to maintain the
water quality of that stream to protect those resources. It
goes beyond the Clean Water Act.
The Clean Water Act also only looks at the surface waters.
The Surface Mining Act says I have to look at the surface water
and the underground water, so protect all of that.
Clean Water Act, with the Army Corps of Engineers for
putting fill in the streams, where they look at the cumulative
load, they look at the stream banks and the high water mark;
they don't look at what happens up here or happens over here,
the whole watershed. Under my law, we have to do that. We have
to take a cumulative look at the entire watershed to see what
is happening, as well as look at off the permit area.
So the Clean Water Act has been a great success as far as
it goes. Congress, I believe, recognized that and reserved that
exclusively for EPA. We recognize that, and that is what we are
staying away from. But we are trying to fill those areas where
the Clean Water Act just does not come into play, like for
groundwater.
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Senator Gillibrand.
We are going to be dismissing this panel. Senator Boxer
wants to submit something for the record.
Senator Boxer. Yes. I want to thank you so much for your
patience in the face of some anger here. Thank you.
I ask unanimous consent to place in the record the
statement of purpose of the Surface Mining Act, which is to
establish a nationwide program to protect society and the
environment from the adverse effects of surface coal mining
operations. That is A. That is A. And then the second section
that deals with your authorities is section 304, the duties,
which require you to report on every State's status. And the
last is the enforcement, which gives you a lot of strength here
to go after those bad actors.
So I am putting that in the record, and maybe people will
come to their senses about what we are supposed to be doing
here.
Senator Inhofe. Without objection.
[The referenced information follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Inhofe. And for the minute and 15 seconds that I
have, I will cede that to Senator Capito.
Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would again like to say that over the years, since 1977,
there have been improvements of this rule that have resulted in
cleaner water in and around the area that I live. I think the
biggest flashpoint for me is just the lack of State cooperation
on the ground, and the States that I mentioned that are the
regulator. There is a concern about underground mining.
And I would like to say anecdotally, I told Senator Cardin
with his visual, I would have liked to have seen the after
picture of that. You mentioned all the things that these types
of mining operations go through on the reclamation process at
the end. You have seen some of the end products, and when done
right can be a benefit to some communities for airports,
schools, shopping centers, in Appalachia where we have no flat
land. So there are some. If it is done right, there can be some
tremendous economic benefits to this.
And just to put this in the record, in the State of West
Virginia there is only active surface mining operation at
present time.
With that, I yield back.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Senator Capito.
Mr. Pizarchik. Could I comment a little on that?
The Senator is absolutely right, when it is done right, it
can make sense. And as far as the airports and things, there is
specific provision for post-mining land uses that allows those
to occur, and things are a lot better. What we also know, we
have room to improve because there are things that are causing
pollution that we didn't know about before.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Mr. Pizarchik. We will dismiss
you now as the first panel.
Mr. Pizarchik. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Inhofe. We would like to invite the second panel to
come to the panel. That will be Mr. Lanny Erdos, the Chief of
the Division of Mineral Resources Management, Ohio Department
of Natural Resources; Clay Larkin, a partner in Dinsmore; and
Matt Wasson, Director of Programs for Appalachian Voices.
We will start with opening statements. We will recognize
first Mr. Erdos.
STATEMENT OF LANNY ERDOS, CHIEF, DIVISION OF MINERAL RESOURCES
MANAGEMENT, OHIO DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES
Mr. Erdos. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Inhofe. Good afternoon.
Mr. Erdos. Good morning, Chairman Inhofe, Ranking Member
Boxer, and members of the Committee. My name is Lanny Erdos,
and I serve as Chief of the Ohio Department of Natural
Resources, Division of Mineral Resources Management. I have
worked for the Division for nearly 28 years, and I was
appointed Chief in October 2011.
I appreciate the opportunity to testify in regard to the
Stream Protection Rule proposed by the U.S. Department of
Interior's Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and
Enforcement. Ohio has primacy over the administration of the
Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act, SMCRA, and
consistently receives high marks on our annual evaluations from
OSM for our program. Historically, Ohio DNR has had a positive
working relationship with OSM. However, the process that OSM
has set forth for the primacy States and the proposed Stream
Protection Rule has been one-sided and not open to productive
dialogue.
In November 2009 OSM offered States the opportunity to
participate as a cooperating agency in the development of the
Environmental Impact Statement, EIS, for the proposed Stream
Protection Rule. Ohio DNR agreed to participate only as a State
commenter, not as a cooperating agency. That decision was made
under the previous administration, prior to me being appointed
as chief. Three chapters of the initial draft EIS, which
totaled 1,045 pages, were shared with the participating States,
with only 24 business days for review.
Only once, in late 2010, did OSM arrange a conference call
with the States to discuss chapter 2 of the draft EIS. This
call served as more of a briefing to the States rather than an
exchange of information or an opportunity to provide meaningful
comments. Over the course of the past 4 years, following the
final opportunity for State input in early 2011, OSM
significantly revised the draft EIS.
The cooperating agency States sent three letters to OSM
expressing their concerns with the EIS process and their role
as cooperators. The first, on November 23rd, 2010, expressed
concerns about the quality, completeness, and accuracy of the
draft EIS, the constrained timeframes for the submission of
comments on the draft EIS chapters, the reconciliation process,
and the need for additional comment on the revised chapters.
OSM responded to this letter on January 24, 2011, and made a
number of commitments regarding continued robust participation
with the cooperating agency States in the EIS development
process. Shortly thereafter, OSM terminated involvement on the
draft EIS with the cooperating States without explanation.
The cooperating agency States sent a second letter to OSM
on July 3rd, 2013, requesting an opportunity to reengage in the
EIS development process and reiterated the States' concern
regarding how their comments would be used or referenced by OSM
in the final draft EIS. OSM never responded to this letter.
A third letter was sent to OSM on February 23rd, 2015, by
the cooperating agency States specifically outlining the
States' ongoing concerns about the EIS consultation process. No
response was received.
Based on experiences to date with OSM's development of the
draft EIS for the Stream Protection Rule, OSM has not provided
for meaningful participation with the cooperating or commenting
agency States. The most recent effort by OSM to communicate
with the cooperating agency States was made through a general
briefing and overview of the draft EIS process in April 2015
during an Interstate Mining Compact Commission meeting in
Baltimore, Maryland, a meeting which I personally attended.
The briefing consisted of a PowerPoint presentation by OSM
providing overviews of the proposed rule with no opportunity
for the cooperating agency States to ask questions.
Unfortunately, the overview of the EIS was extremely limited,
copies of the presentation were not made available, and the
meeting did not allow the States an opportunity to contribute
to the EIS. The cooperating agency States present at the
meeting communicated to OSM personnel in attendance, including
OSM Director Pizarchik, that the meeting was not considered a
meaningful consultation but rather, a briefing.
One provision in the proposed rule that is problematic
requires written approval of Protection Enhancement Plans
before a permit to mine coal can be issued. The proposed rule
does not require establishment of timeframes by which the U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service must provide a complete evaluation of
the proposed mining project to allow the State to move forward
and/or for the advancement of the permitting process. Not
allowing for conditional issuance and approval beyond
established timeframes to complete necessary review is
tantamount to providing the Federal Government veto power over
a permit without any explanation whatsoever.
Additionally, Ohio has identified several other critical
areas where State expertise would have proven to be beneficial
in the development of the proposed rule.
Mr. Chairman, had States been given adequate opportunity to
provide their technical expertise on the development of the
draft EIS and proposed rule through a meaningful process, and
OSM welcomed that input, the rule would have better accounted
for the diversity in terrain, climate, biological, chemical,
and other physical conditions in area subject to mining as
anticipated by SMCRA. The rule would have also recognized the
appropriate discretion vested by SMCRA to the primacy States
that have been regulating coal mining operations in excess of
30 years.
Thank you again for the opportunity to present this
testimony. I would be happy to address any questions you may
have.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Erdos follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Mr. Erdos.
Mr. Larkin.
STATEMENT OF CLAY LARKIN, PARTNER,
DINSMORE AND SHOHL
Mr. Larkin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the
Committee.
My name is Clay Larkin. I am a partner at Dinsmore and
Shohl in Lexington, Kentucky, and also serve as a senior policy
advisor to the Kentucky Coal Association, or the KCA, which
represents companies that mine about 90 percent of the coal
mined in Kentucky.
The Stream Protection Rule is a rule in search of a
problem. Although OSM has stated that the rule will help reduce
offsite impacts from coal mining, by OSM's own estimates State
regulators and coal miners are already doing an outstanding job
of controlling these offsite impacts under existing
regulations.
According to OSM's own figures, over 90 percent of sites
nationwide were free from offsite impacts last year, and in
some States that figure was 100 percent. Despite this track
record, the proposed rule would require States to implement
duplicative permit review procedures that are already addressed
by other State and Federal agencies at a time when States like
Kentucky are already dealing with significant budget
shortfalls.
Although there are numerous problems with this rule, I want
to focus today on the way in which it unlawfully conflicts with
the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act.
OSM, simply put, cannot regulate issues within the scope of
other Federal laws pursuant to section 702(a) of SMCRA, which
specifically prevents them from regulating in conflict with
other environmental protection statutes and specifically
mentions both the Clean Water Act and NEPA, and courts have
held that that list is not exhaustive and therefore precludes
them from regulating in a way that conflicts with the
Endangered Species Act.
In this proposed Stream Protection Rule, OSM has failed to
comply with section 702(a) of SMCRA on multiple fronts. First,
the proposed rule unlawfully conflicts with the Clean Water
Act. State Clean Water Act authorities already enforce Clean
Water Act programs at the State level. Mining operators must
navigate a burdensome and stringent permitting process under
multiple sections of the Clean Water Act.
Despite this existing process which fully addresses water
quality issues related to mining, OSM seeks to appoint itself
as the premier water quality regulator for all water quality
issues related to surface and underground coal mining. This is
both illegal and impractical.
For example, OSM seeks to provide a nationwide, one size
fits all definition of the term ``material damage to the
hydrologic balance outside the permit area.'' This is
inconsistent with SMCRA's State primary framework, which gives
primary regulatory authority to the States, not a Federal
agency. There is significant diversity of hydrology and
geography in different mining States that requires a State by
State, site by site approach to defining, evaluating, and
preventing material damage to the hydrologic balance, and
States have demonstrated that they are better positioned to
address the unique water quality concerns within their borders.
OSM has provided no meaningful justification for its one size
fits all Federal approach.
OSM also seeks to impose a completely duplicative water
quality permitting process on coal miners and State regulators
in which OSM will define parameters of concern reasonably
foreseeable uses of streams and then establish its own
numerical criteria for those parameters of concern. This
directly conflicts with section 303 of the Clean Water Act,
which already provides the authority for how States are to
establish water quality standards within their borders and
includes both designating uses of streams and establishing
water quality criteria necessary to protect those uses.
There is also section 402 of the Clean Water Act regarding
effluent limitations which are imposed upon coal mining that
OSM seeks to usurp in the rule as well.
In addition to section 402, the proposed rule conflicts
with the section 404 permitting process, which already does
what OSM is proposing to do in this rule in terms of requiring
mine operators to avoid impacts to streams where possible, and
where those impacts cannot be avoided choosing the least
environmentally damaging practicable alternative to those
impacts and then mitigating whatever impacts they create. This
existing and comprehensive regulatory program under section 404
of the Clean Water Act does not contain any gaps that the State
Mining Regulatory or OSM must fill. As such, OSM lacks
authority to regulate in this area.
With respect to the Endangered Species Act, the proposed
rule raises two primary concerns: first, it extends the
protection and enhancement plan and other Endangered Species
Act review criteria within the SMCRA permitting process to
cover both listed and non-listed species, giving OSM itself a
power that Congress never saw fit to give it with respect to
species that are only proposed for listing, and it gives the
Federal Fish and Wildlife Service a veto authority over State
issued mining permits, in contravention of SMCRA.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Larkin follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Inhofe. Thank you.
Mr. Wasson.
STATEMENT OF MATT WASSON, DIRECTOR OF PROGRAMS, APPALACHIAN
VOICES
Mr. Wasson. Thank you, Chairman Inhofe, Ranking Member
Boxer, Senator Capito, and other members of the Committee for
the opportunity to speak today. I hope my testimony is going to
make clear to this Committee that the people, the wildlife, and
landscapes of Appalachia cannot afford any more delays in
finalizing rules to rein in the damage caused by mountaintop
removal coal mining.
In preparing this testimony, I reviewed the statements that
dozens of residents of coal mining communities provided to OSM
last fall in support of a strong Stream Protection Rule. There
are a lot of reasons local residents gave for supporting a
strong rule, but five general themes emerged in comments of
many coalfield residents across many different States.
The first theme was simply the intolerable scale of damage
to streams that has occurred under the existing rule. Almost
every commenter had witnessed the pollution or obliteration of
streams and springs where they used to swim, fish, and drink
water. Gary Garrett of Clairfield, Tennessee, wrote to OSM:
``It's gone! What once was a gathering spot for many locals is
no longer and will never be again. The cold, crystal clear,
mountain water that brought many folks with empty water jugs in
hand to fill to a small mountain stream which once flowed down
Old Standard Hill in the Clairfield area of Claiborne County,
Tennessee, is now covered up.''
That is just one example of many powerful statements from
local residents.
A second theme brought up by many commenters was their
concern about threats to their health, specifically the high
rates of cancer and other diseases that are strongly correlated
with living near coal mines in Appalachia. Based on a growing
body of scientific evidence, these are legitimate concerns. In
the past decade, more than 20 different studies published in
peer reviewed scientific journals and authored by more than 40
different researchers have demonstrated pervasive impacts on
the health, well-being, and life expectancy of people living
near mountaintop removal and other types of coal mines in
Appalachia.
The result of all these health impacts is that life
expectancy for both men and women actually declined between
1997 and 2007 in Appalachian counties with a lot of surface
mining. In 2007 life expectancy in the five Appalachian
counties with the most surface mining was comparable to that in
developing countries like Iran, Syria, El Salvador, and
Vietnam.
A third theme in the comments of local residents was the
need to empower citizen involvement and enforcement of mining
and clean water acts that, in their experience, State agencies
have been unwilling or unable to enforce. Citizen enforcement
has been the only backstop to protect Appalachian streams in
States like Kentucky, where Clean Water Act violations have
occurred at staggering levels under the noses of State
regulators.
Even more concerning in that State is the brazen pattern of
falsifying records that coal companies employed to avoid
accountability under the Clean Water Act. For years, fraud went
undetected by State regulators until citizen enforcement
actions shined a light on, in the words of Kentucky's largest
newspaper, the State's ``failure to oversee a credible water
monitoring program by the coal industry.''
The fourth thing you might want to talk about was the need
for strong environmental rules to support economic
revitalization. Many commenters expressed their concern that
continuing to sacrifice their region's natural capital to
benefit coal companies' bottom lines is a poor long-term
investment for their communities.
Please make no mistake that we have grave concerns about
OSM's approach to writing this rule. By abandoning the 1983
stream buffer zone language, there is no longer a bright line
rule that prohibits the filling of intermittent and perennial
streams by waste and debris from surface mining operations. We
acknowledge, however, that the old rule was never effectively
enforced by States, which were all too willing to rubber stamp
variances at the request of mining companies.
By eliminating clear buffer zone language, however, OSM
bears a heavy burden to ensure the other provisions of this
rule will end the wholesale destruction of Appalachian streams
and mountains that has torn communities and landscapes apart
for generations and is what led to the multi-agency MOU and
action plan that initiated this rulemaking in the first place.
We believe that constructive participation in the
rulemaking process, rather than intimidation and obstruction,
is the appropriate route for community and environmental
advocates for State regulatory agencies and for Congress to
take as well.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Wasson follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Mr. Wasson.
In order to accommodate Senator Capito's schedule, I will
exchange order with Senator Capito.
Senator Capito.
Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank all of you for your presentations today.
I would like to ask you, Mr. Erdos, you heavily emphasize
in your statement the lack of cooperation and cooperative
attitude that you felt OSM is moving forward with the rule. One
of the things really got my attention when you said that there
was no conditional approval, no timelines. To me, that just
sounded like a major stall tactic. You can just keep moving on
and on and never get a resolution. What are investors going to
do? How many jobs are going to be lost in the process?
Could you comment on that a little more fully? Would you
think that would be an improvement to the rule? Was that a
suggestion that Ohio made, in your opinion?
Mr. Erdos. Thank you, Senator. I say that in the context
relative to the Endangered Species Act and the way that we
currently do business in the State of Ohio relative to
Protection Enhancement Plans. The way the rule is written, the
proposed rule, the interpretation could be that the U.S. Fish
and Wildlife Service would essentially have to approve that PEP
plan prior to the State issuing a permit. What we have done in
Ohio is, if we have a 1,000-acre permit and the PEP may only be
a half an acre, in many cases we issue those permits
conditionally. That requires the operator not to affect those
areas that are currently being reviewed by the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service.
The way the rule is written today, the interpretation could
be that we would no longer be able to do that, so we would have
to hold a permit up relative to issuance for that half-acre for
this 1,000-acre area. That was my reference.
Senator Capito. Right. So no flexibility there at all.
Mr. Larkin, you mentioned in your testimony just briefly
underground. I asked a question earlier--you might have been
here in the earlier segment--about there is great concern about
what impacts this could have on your ability to mine
underground. What is your interpretation of this rule in terms
of underground mining?
Mr. Larkin. Thank you, Senator. The rule absolutely applies
to both surface and underground mining.
Senator Capito. Right.
Mr. Larkin. There seems to be a bit of a misperception here
today that this is all about mountaintop removal mining. If it
had been that simple, there were things that OSM could have
done much differently in this context; they could have simply
gone forward with the 2008 rule if that was the intent. As I
think the director candidly mentioned, long wall mining, I
think he said you could continue to long wall mine as long as
that wouldn't cause any substantive impacts to streams. I am
not sure exactly, but there is grave concern that this would,
as a practical matter, make it impossible to permit a long wall
mine, which of course in your State is important and is
important to the Nation's energy needs. Those are some of the
most efficient mines, and there are some that are still running
now.
So as I read this proposed rule, it will have an impact on
both surface and underground mining.
Senator Capito. Thank you.
Mr. Erdos, one thing I have been thinking about as I have
been listening to the testimony, because we have had testimony
in this Committee on waters of the U.S. under the Clean Water
Act, and then we had the stream buffer.
How do you keep track of all this as a regulator in your
State? What kind of conflicts are going to exist? To me, I
think that would create huge burdens on your State regulatory
agencies. You have talked about Ohio being under budgetary
constraint. Certainly the State of West Virginia, I mentioned,
is over $300 million under our tax estimates for this year.
What would your response to that be?
Mr. Erdos. I believe there are significant challenges, and
it will be very confusing. As of today, I have had my staff
looking into that in regard to the Clean Water Act and who
enforces what, and I think that is going to be a real
challenge. In Ohio, the Ohio EPA enforces the Clean Water Act
under their 402 national discharge pollution elimination system
permits. Those are also part of our SMCRA permits. So it is a
little more complicated in Ohio, but it a system that works for
us.
Under the proposed rule, it is not clear who has the
authority. If SMCRA truly has the authority today, how do they
interact with Ohio EPA, the current authority in regard to the
Clean Water Act in Ohio? So I think there is much, much to
discuss moving forward in regard to the Clean Water Act and how
it is going to be enforced in Ohio, and what I have said and
what we have said at Ohio DNR, we would like to be reengaged by
OSM. Let's sit down and have a conversation relative to these
very important issues.
Senator Capito. And that is going to be my final comment. I
think one of the bottom lines here with a lot of frustrations
from many State regulators and certainly the States most
heavily impacted is the lack of State input on the front end.
The States who actually were cooperating removing themselves--
Kentucky being one and West Virginia being one, and now what
kind of confidence would you have that OSM is going to come in
and say, well, here is the delineation of this, and this is
where we take care of this? And before you know it you are
either under heavy fines or the balance of the economy, if
there is one in this case, is simply non-existent.
Thank you.
Senator Inhofe. Thank you, Senator Capito.
Senator Boxer.
Senator Boxer. I always find it amazing the criticism that
comes from that side. How do you know what to do? We have the
Clean Water Act, we have the Safe Drinking Water Act, we have
the Surface Mining Act. Oh, you know why we have those? Because
the people that Mr. Wasson talks about are real, and the public
support these acts by 90 percent.
So why don't you who complain about this repeal these? You
know why? They would love to. They can't because they would be
thrown out of office, and the people would rise up, and there
would be marches all the way to the Capitol from California.
That is the reason.
Now, let's get real here. We have an attorney here who
represents coal companies, is that correct?
Mr. Larkin. Yes.
Senator Boxer. And one of your affiliations and
memberships--you belong to the Kentucky Coal Association, sir?
Are you affiliated with them?
Mr. Larkin. As I said in my testimony, yes.
Senator Boxer. So you are affiliated with them. How about
the Lexington Coal Exchange, are you affiliated with them?
Mr. Larkin. Sure. Yes.
Senator Boxer. And how about the Energy and Mineral Law
Foundation, are you affiliated with them?
Mr. Larkin. Yes. That is a non-partisan----
Senator Boxer. Well, whether they are not, I am just asking
yes or no. OK.
Mr. Larkin. Oh, yes. Yes.
Senator Boxer. So my point is here we have an attorney paid
big bucks to represent the polluting industries. We don't have
an attorney here who represents the people, who represents the
environment, and that is sort of a sad situation.
Now, you have one witness who says this is a rule in search
of a problem. Really? So do you discount, Mr. Larkin, the quote
that Mr. Wasson made by just an ordinary human being who can no
longer go to a mountain stream? Do you think that that
individual has a right to say that? And do you agree or
disagree with his comments, that he used to go over and fill a
bottle with water, and now that is gone, no longer possible? Do
you think that is a problem?
Mr. Larkin. Senator, of course I have no basis to disagree
with that comment; I don't know the gentleman who made it. I
don't know any of the facts of that situation.
Senator Boxer. Well, I understand you are an attorney. My
point is you are saying that this is a rule in search of a
problem, and yet there is a huge problem, and real people say
it who don't get paid by industry. That is my point.
Now, Mr. Erdos, you point out with great upset that you
don't feel the States were respected. However, it is my
understanding that the role that you did have, you were invited
to advance notice of proposed rulemaking in 2009, was far in
excess of what the Bush administration did in 2008. It is my
understanding the States did not have a similar role, any
comments when the Bush administration developed their 2008
stream buffer rule. And this Administration has had a far more
open process.
Did you complain, or your predecessors complain, when Bush
administration issued the rule, that you weren't consulted?
Mr. Erdos. Thank you, Senator. It would be difficult for me
to answer that question relative prior to 2008; I wasn't in my
current position.
Senator Boxer. Fair enough. Well, we will look it up,
because the record does not show it. This was an unprecedented
reach out, and all we hear are complaints about it. But the law
is not going away.
Now, Mr. Larkin, you say there are no gaps in existing law
that need to be filled. If this is the case, why are there
numerous peer reviewed studies documenting the significant
water quality and public health impacts near coal mines?
Mr. Larkin. Thank you for your question, Senator. First of
all, those studies that were referenced are subject to
significant dispute. The vast majority of them are authored by
a single, I believe he is a psychologist at Indiana University,
Michael----
Senator Boxer. Well, let me cut you off. Let me cut you off
for this reason.
Mr. Larkin. Go ahead.
Senator Boxer. We are running out of time, and you are
wrong. How about there are 21 peer reviewed studies by
different people? How about that I am going to put them in the
record and these are the facts that were found out. I know you
are paid by the coal companies, but don't tell me they are one
person only, when there are 21 separate peer reviewed studies.
And we will send this to you for your information so at least
you can look them all over before you criticize them.
Here's what they found out. People living near mountaintop
mining have cancer rates of 14.4 percent, compared to 9.4
percent for people elsewhere in Appalachia. Two, the rate of
children born with birth defects is 42 percent higher in
mountaintop removal mining areas. Fact. The public health costs
of pollution from coal operations in Appalachia amounts to a
staggering $75 billion a year.
Twenty-one separate peer-reviewed studies.
I ask unanimous consent to place this in the record.
Senator Inhofe. Without objection.
[The referenced information was not received at time of
print.]
Senator Boxer. My time is over, but I have to say bless
your heart, you do a good job for the companies you represent.
But that is not my job and is not the job of this U.S. Senate.
It is to protect the health and safety of the people, while of
course looking at the economics. And I have to say that the
witness we had before who talked about this rule seems to
understand that balance. Sir, you do not. You are not paid to,
I get it.
And I really do want to say, Mr. Wasson, thank you for your
testimony.
Senator Inhofe. Well, Mr. Larkin, I guess industry is bad,
right? Who employs people out there?
Mr. Larkin. Coal companies do, Senator.
Senator Inhofe. Did you know I was down north of Poteau,
Oklahoma, last Friday? There are one-half the number of
employees there today than there were less than a year ago when
I was down there. I think I said that in my opening statement.
Do you care about that?
Mr. Larkin. Absolutely, I do care about that, Senator, and
that is why I am here. I am not being paid to be here today.
Senator Inhofe. I understand.
Mr. Larkin. I am here because I care about my State and
what is going to happen to it and the economic devastation that
rules like this can cause.
Senator Inhofe. Yes. You know, there is one good thing that
I have always supported as we have had our meetings in this
Committee, and that is the Regulatory Impact Analysis that is
required to be made. I think that is very reasonable, and yet a
lot of liberals really object to the fact, well, why should we
be concerned about jobs? Why should we be concerned about the
cost to the American people for these various regulations? They
even get offended.
It is my understanding, and I want to ask you about this,
that in this rule the OSM fired its initial contractors when
their estimate--estimate, now we are talking about--under the
Regulatory Impact Analysis, showed a substantial number of job
losses. Do you believe that?
Mr. Larkin. Yes, I am familiar with that, and I believe
there has been testimony here in the Congress about how that
operated, that basically OSM got numbers that they didn't like
and that didn't support the rule, so they fired the contractor.
Senator Inhofe. So they hired contractors. But they somehow
perhaps have a little wink and nod understanding before they
come on. That is what I think. And you see that they come out
and talk about these people are going to lose their jobs. How
dare you do that? Let's find somebody who maybe doesn't believe
that. Do you think that happened?
Mr. Larkin. Yes, I do. They had very knowledgeable mining
consultants working on the project and came back with answers
that OSM didn't want to hear, and they were fired.
Senator Inhofe. Mr. Larkin, sometimes serving in the
Senate, I have thought of it as being an advantage not to be a
lawyer, because when I read the law I know what it says. Now,
you heard me in my opening statement, maybe it wasn't in
opening statement, it may have been initially in this meeting,
read section 702. When you read that, which I won't read again
because it takes too long, but that is so specific. Do you see
there is any room for ambiguities in that law?
Mr. Larkin. No, Senator, I don't. I think we all agree that
it is pretty clear.
Senator Inhofe. Mr. Erdos, if a State, like your State of
Ohio, is authorized to issue permits for coal mining
operations--now, I am talking about today, not with this rule,
but the way it is today--who is in charge of making those
decisions today?
Mr. Erdos. Ultimately, I am, the chief.
Senator Inhofe. And how would this change if this proposed
rule would go into effect?
Mr. Erdos. I would still have the authority to issue the
permits, But with that being said, the way the rule is proposed
in regard to the Endangered Species Act, it would make it
challenging to issue a permit without the approval of the U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service.
Senator Inhofe. So they would have veto?
Mr. Erdos. Ultimately, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service could
have veto power, yes, over the permit.
Senator Inhofe. That is not the way it operates today. So
in my opening statement I made four different references as to
what was going to be changed in terms of the Federal takeover,
what I consider to be illegal Federal takeover. So as we look
at the rule that is coming up, yes, we do make considerations,
at least I do, in seeing what has happened actually in my
State.
When we have talked and we have heard the witnesses today,
and we know that there is another Federal takeover in the
wings, I have really good friends who are liberals.
Senator Boxer. You are sitting next to one.
Senator Inhofe. Well, I am not going to make the direct
reference, because then I know what is going to happen.
I have to say this, that my good friend here, we work
together. It is Environment and Public Works. On the public
works side we work together. We recognize that Government does
have a role. In fact, there is an old, beat up document that
nobody reads anymore, it is called the Constitution. Article 1,
section 5, I think it is, says we are really supposed to be
doing two things primarily around here: defending America, and
then roads and bridges. We understand that.
But a true in his heart or in her heart liberal really
believes that Government does things better than people do, so
we do have basic differences and philosophies. And I am going
to do what I can as Chairman of this Committee and as someone
who is desperately concerned about what is happening
economically with overregulation that we are facing to try to
keep this rule from becoming a reality.
So thank you for being here. We will dismiss this panel and
adjourn our meeting.
Senator Boxer. Mr. Chairman, may I please, since you went
over a minute, have 1 minute to close with my comments, with,
of course, your being able to retort?
Senator Inhofe. Of course.
Senator Boxer. First, I want to thank the panel. This was
important, and we see the conflict. And my colleague, who is a
dear friend of mine, summed up my remarks in his way: industry
is bad. That was his word, industry is bad, as if that is what
I was saying.
And I resent it. I come from the largest State in the
Union. We are the eighth largest country in the world, if we
were to be a country, in terms of our gross domestic product.
We have more industry than anybody, than him, than him, her,
everybody. And I have great relationships.
Of course we want industry. Of course we want jobs. You
have to have that. But industry, as individuals, must be
responsible. And if they are causing problems, then we ought to
work together, together.
And that is why, Mr. Erdos, I question you, because we did
open up the door to hear from you, and yes, you will have to
collaborate with Fish and Wildlife before you issue the permit.
It is not like you are in some kind of vacuum. You are a nice
man; you are going to meet with a nice person at Fish and
Wildlife. You are going to find out the best way to go so we
don't poison our fish and we don't poison our children. A very
important point.
And Mr. Larkin, I would just like to finish. Mr. Larkin,
you do your job well for the coal industry, and good for you.
And I didn't mean to suggest that you are doing anything wrong.
They deserve the best and the brightest. But so do we, and that
is why we have Mr. Wasson here.
So I am going to conclude by saying this. I suggest you all
read the Surface Mining Act, because section 102 says, ``(a)
establish a nationwide program to protect society and the
environment from the adverse effects of surface coal mining
operations, and wherever necessary, exercise the full reach of
the Federal constitutional powers.'' Constitutional powers that
my friend talked about. By the way, this is a Government of by
and for the people. I don't view the Government as an enemy.
``Exercise the full reach of the Federal constitutional powers
to ensure the protection of the public interest through
effective control of surface coal mining operations.'' Here it
is. We put it in the record before.
The point is, all right, what the Administration is doing
is constitutional, is required under the law. It is to protect
the very people that, sir, you spoke about. And again, this is
a sharp division, and I guess the people will make their
judgments every time they go to vote. You know, they vote for
him in his State; they vote for me in my State.
Senator Inhofe. All right, Senator Boxer.
Senator Boxer. What a great country is all I can say.
Senator Inhofe. I am not adjourning the meeting yet, but I
will in 3 minutes. And I understand that if you haven't been
through the experience that a lot of people in this room have
been through, and I suggest the two of you have, it is a tough
world out there.
I had a career before this, and I was out doing things, I
was building, developing. Some people think that is bad. I was
expanding the tax base. I was doing what Americans are supposed
to be doing. And the opposition that I had was always
overregulation. Unless you have lived being overregulated, you
don't understand how this can happen.
So, anyway, we are here now to try to let people have more
freedom to do the things they want to do, to hire people, to
expand the tax base, and to have a more prosperous America.
Now, a specific comment was made about you, Mr. Erdos,
about they opened up everything to you. Would you like to
respond to that? Was everything opened up to you?
Mr. Erdos. I am sorry?
Senator Inhofe. The comment was made that all this was
opened up to you at the State level.
Mr. Erdos. Oh, yes. Yes, thank you. Yes, it was, and we
certainly appreciated that. We have said from the very
beginning that we want to be engaged with OSM. We want to be
engaged in this process, and initially we were.
Our concern is over the 4-year period where that one-way
communication developed. And again, we want to work with OSM,
and we continue today to want to work with OSM. So it is not
that we don't want to be part of the process. We want to be
part of the process. We want to say to you, OSM, come back to
the table. We want to sit down with you. We think we can help
you. And that is essentially what we are saying at Ohio DNR,
just talk to us.
Senator Inhofe. And Mr. Larkin, a job description was
commented about you, what your job is. Do you want to
characterize what your job is and what your personal feelings
are, how that interacts with whose payroll you are on?
Mr. Larkin. I do represent coal companies, Senator, and I
am proud to do it because of how important they are to the
State where I live. But I am here today both in that role, as
someone who has gained knowledge about what it is like to be
overregulated and because through representing coal companies I
have met those people who live in the coalfields, and a
significant number of them are coal miners.
And because coal miners live in the coalfields, they are
not going to do anything that is going to put something that is
toxic or dangerous into the water, and they are going to do
everything they can to be as responsible to the areas where
they live because they live there.
So I think it is a misperception that there is this vast
majority of people out there that somehow oppose mining in the
areas where mining occurs, because a tremendous number of those
people are in fact coal miners themselves. So it is for them
that I am here today as much as anything.
Senator Inhofe. We thank the panels, and we are adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:39 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
[Additional material submitted for the record follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]