[Senate Hearing 114-610]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 114-610
REAUTHORIZING THE HIGHER EDUCATION ACT: THE ROLE OF CONSUMER
INFORMATION IN COLLEGE CHOICE
=======================================================================
HEARING
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION,
LABOR, AND PENSIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
EXAMINING REAUTHORIZING THE HIGHER EDUCATION ACT, FOCUSING ON THE ROLE
OF CONSUMER INFORMATION IN COLLEGE CHOICE
__________
MAY 6, 2015
__________
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COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR, AND PENSIONS
LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee, Chairman
MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming PATTY MURRAY, Washington
RICHARD BURR, North Carolina BARBARA A. MIKULSKI, Maryland
JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia BERNARD SANDERS (I), Vermont
RAND PAUL, Kentucky ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania
SUSAN COLLINS, Maine AL FRANKEN, Minnesota
LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado
MARK KIRK, Illinois SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin
ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut
PAT ROBERTS, Kansas ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts
BILL CASSIDY, M.D., Louisiana
David P. Cleary, Republican Staff Director
Evan Schatz, Minority Staff Director
John Righter, Minority Deputy Staff Director
(ii)
C O N T E N T S
__________
STATEMENTS
WEDNESDAY, MAY 6, 2015
Page
Committee Members
Alexander, Hon. Lamar, Chairman, Committee on Health, Education,
Labor, and Pensions, opening statement......................... 1
Murray, Hon. Patty, a U.S. Senator from the State of Washington,
opening statement.............................................. 3
Cassidy, Hon. Bill, a U.S. Senator from the State of Louisiana... 41
Franken, Hon. Al, a U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota..... 43
Warren, Hon. Elizabeth, a U.S. Senator from the State of
Massachusetts.................................................. 45
Murphy, Hon. Christopher, a U.S. Senator from the State of
Connecticut.................................................... 46
Whitehouse, Hon. Sheldon, a U.S. Senator from the State of Rhode
Island......................................................... 48
Scott, Hon. Tim, a U.S. Senator from the State of South Carolina. 50
Witnesses
Schneider, Mark, Ph.D., Vice President and Institute Fellow,
American Institutes for Research, and President, College
Measures, Washington, D.C...................................... 6
Prepared statement........................................... 8
Santiago, Deborah A., Chief Operating Officer and Vice President
for Policy, Excelencia In Education, Washington, DC............ 13
Prepared statement........................................... 15
Lightfoot, Stacy, Vice President of College and Career Success
Initiatives, Public Education Foundation, Chattanooga, TN...... 21
Prepared statement........................................... 23
Mitchell, Taleah, Graduate, Seattle Central College, Seattle, WA. 29
Prepared statement........................................... 31
(iii)
REAUTHORIZING THE HIGHER EDUCATION ACT: THE ROLE OF CONSUMER
INFORMATION IN COLLEGE CHOICE
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WEDNESDAY, MAY 6, 2015
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m. in room
SD-430, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lamar Alexander,
chairman of the committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Alexander, Scott, Cassidy, Murray, Casey,
Franken, Bennet, Whitehouse, Murphy, and Warren.
Opening Statement of Senator Alexander
The Chairman. The Senate Committee on Health, Education,
Labor, and Pensions will please come to order.
This morning we are holding our second hearing in this
Congress on the reauthorization of the Higher Education Act,
which will focus on the role of consumer information in college
choice.
Senator Murray and I will each have an opening statement.
Then we will introduce our panel of witnesses. After our
witness testimony, Senators will have 5 minutes of questions.
This is our second higher education hearing, but we have a
good head start. Last Congress, we held 13 hearings on higher
education, and all but two of our Members who are on this
year's committee were on last year's committee.
We also have a head start in the sense we have several
bipartisan pieces of legislation that are on this subject of
Higher Education reauthorization.
There is the FAST Act that Senators Bennet, Booker, Burr,
King, Isakson, and I introduced that was based on testimony
before this committee from last year about simplifying Federal
student aid and reducing borrowing.
There is the REPAY Act. Senator Burr, along with Senators
King, Warner, Rubio, Collins, and I have introduced that. That
would simplify loan repayment.
Then Senator Mikulski, Burr, Bennet, and I are planning to
introduce legislation to incorporate many of the
recommendations from the report we asked for on Federal rules
and regulations governing colleges and universities and how to
simplify them.
Senator Murray and I will work together to put all this and
other information into a bipartisan process for reauthorizing
the Higher Education Act. I hope we can produce a bill for that
this fall. This now becomes the major effort of our committee,
now that the committee has finished its work on the Elementary
and Secondary Education Act.
We are here today to examine what students want and need to
know in order to make their college choices and look at whether
this matches up with the information the Federal law requires
colleges to collect. It is important to note that since 1944
with the GI bill for veterans, Federal aid has followed
students to the colleges of their choice. American college
students have lots of choices, more than 6,000, and to make a
smart choice, students need information.
The Federal Government collects and disseminates
information on colleges and universities. The testimony we will
hear today will say it does a better job of collecting than
disseminating. We will talk about that. That requires time and
money from the institutions. I have an example here of the data
survey that each of our almost 1,000 public community colleges
must fill out. Every one of our 2-year schools has to fill this
out. The other 5,000 colleges and universities have a similar
document they fill out. This one is 426 pages of data
requirements and reporting instructions, 3,300 different
necessary responses or inputs. The question is, are all those
necessary? Are all those useful to students?
Last year, the National Association of Student Financial
Aid administrators issued a report on federally mandated
college consumer disclosures. They have lent me this 900-page
binder to show what one university with two campuses is
required to disclose. Most of this is made public on the
institution's website, but the law and regulations prescribe a
dizzying variety of ways the different disclosures must be sent
to current students and, upon request, the public. Items range
from the useful and necessary such as terms and conditions of
student aid to such things as informing students when
Constitution Day is.
The question is, is all this necessary? The more important
question is, how much of this is actually useful to students
making a college choice? The president of that association
suggested that with such an overwhelming amount of information
students will have a hard time making good use of it.
We have this phenomenon in too many areas of life today.
For example, if you get a mortgage loan or if you buy a car,
you are provided with so much consumer information, it may not
help you.
At colleges, the burden of getting this information to the
student falls in most cases on the financial aid offices. This
takes away time and money from other important activities like
counseling students about loans or the careers they might
follow. Ninety percent of college administrators, those who
work every day with this information, say the requirements--
many of them could be eliminated or modified or improved, and
they are among the most burdensome part of higher education
regulation.
I got a note from the president of the Missouri Baptist
University the other day, whom I do not know, and he said,
``I have been in higher education administration for
over 40 years, the last 20 as university president. I
have never experienced the amount of regulatory
pressure our institution currently faces.''
What I just discussed is only a part of the mandates on
colleges and universities by the Federal Government. When we
reauthorized the Higher Education Act in 2008, I brought a copy
of all the regulations, sub-regulations, the guidance, dear
colleague letters, and forms. I brought them to the Senate
floor. I stacked them up, and they were as tall as I was. The
new law produced even more.
I mentioned earlier the report that four members of this
committee have commissioned on higher education regulations.
That commission found what it called a jungle of red tape
strangling colleges and universities, overloading consumers
with an enormous amount of information.
They listed information that was an overload among the top
10 areas they identified as particularly burdensome, such
questions about copyright infringement or how many fire drills
the institution holds each year.
The question is, do the students actually need and use this
information? The most well-known Federal consumer tool is the
College Navigator, which came from the last Higher Education
Act. If you print out information from the College Navigator--
and you will excuse me for going on a little bit here--this is
the College Navigator for the University of Tennessee. I tried
to navigate it myself this morning. It is hard to read. I am
not sure it helps students very much. It is a lot of
information, takes a lot of time to do it.
Two years ago, the White House added a new Federal tool,
the College Scoreboard. The Center for American Progress looked
at it and summarized it this way: What am I looking at?
We know students are not using Federal websites for
college. One survey showed only 18 percent of prospective
adults used any interactive website to compare colleges. The
College Board found only 12 percent of high school students
reported using Government tools to learn about college costs.
Consumer information that is too complicated to understand or
to use is worthless.
She can speak for herself, but Senator Warren understands
this. In her time at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau,
she tried to boil down the mortgage disclosure form to a 2-page
shopping sheet, if I remember right, so people could actually
understand what they were getting.
This leads to these questions. How might consumer
information actually become useful for prospective students and
families? What better information may be needed? And what
requirements can we eliminate?
We have a panel of distinguished witnesses here today with
hands-on knowledge of how prospective families and students use
information to decide upon a college. This is a bipartisan
hearing, which means Senator Murray and I have jointly selected
the witnesses. We learn more that way. I want to thank her for
working with me in that way, and I now recognize Senator Murray
for her opening comments.
Opening Statement of Senator Murray
Senator Murray. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to all of our witnesses, as well, for being here
today. I believe it is important to give students a strong
voice at the table when we create Federal policies. I am
especially glad to see Taleah Mitchell, who is joining us from
Washington State today. I am looking forward to your testimony
on your experience of going back to school and navigating the
options of furthering your education.
Over the past several months, this committee has primarily
been focused on fixing the badly broken No Child Left Behind
law. We were able to work through the partisan gridlock and
work together and reach a bipartisan compromise. I was very
proud to join with the Chairman and pass that out of committee
with unanimous support. We still have work to do on that
legislation. But now that we have cleared the committee
process, we are going to be able to focus more of our attention
on reauthorizing the Higher Education Act.
Access to quality and affordable higher education is
important for students, and it is also a crucial part of
building an economy that works for all of our families, not
just the wealthiest few. A highly educated workforce is good
for our economy. It strengthens the middle class. It
strengthens the workforce we will need to compete in the 21st
century global economy. I believe we should be working on ways
to help more students earn their degree and gain that foothold
into the middle class.
There are a few broad themes that I am going to be fighting
for throughout our work to reauthorize the Higher Education
Act. For one, we have got to reduce the crushing burden of
student debt. Making college more affordable will be a central
part of what I focus on throughout any discussion of higher
education. I believe all students should have access to a safe
learning environment as well. Strengthening protections for
students and preventing sexual violence, assault, and bullying
on campus is a priority. We need our education system to work
seamlessly for students from the cradle through to their
career, and more students from all walks of life should have
strong, clear pathways into and through higher education.
That is at the heart of what we will be talking about
today. We will be discussing the role of consumer information
in choosing between college options. The postsecondary options
are only truly valuable if students and families have access to
the information that actually helps them make the best decision
for themselves, their careers, and their future. The lack of
clear and consistent consumer data can make it difficult for
students and families to navigate college options. It can be
especially difficult if you are a first-generation student or a
student from a low-income background where your pathway to
higher education is not as well worn.
Let us remember, the profile of a typical college student
today is quite different than 10 years ago. So-called
nontraditional students have become the new norm. They are more
likely to be the first in their family to go to college, and
before they enroll, they often already have a good idea of how
they want to advance their careers.
Right now, families and students are not able to access
basic but essential consumer information on their program,
their college or their university. In some cases, colleges have
even put out false information misleading students about their
job placement prospects. When students are deciding where to
attend, they should be able to easily see accurate information
on how much they will pay and borrow, the amount they will earn
if they complete their degree and their chances of succeeding.
I recently received a letter from a diverse group of
organizations from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to Young
Invincibles and New America focusing on how we can improve this
consumer information. They pointed out that the current
restrictions on student data are unnecessary and outdated, and
they all agree the Federal Government has an important role to
play in collecting and reporting clear and consistent data
about postsecondary education to promote student success.
In reauthorizing the Higher Education Act, we have the
opportunity to improve and streamline the current system. So,
instead of the illusion of choice, students will have
meaningful information to help them make an informed decision.
That is something I will be pushing for.
I am looking forward to hearing from our panel today on how
to strengthen students' pathways to higher education so they
complete their degrees and how to ensure our system can work
seamlessly for all of our students because expanding access to
higher education could not be more important for students who
want to gain a foothold in the middle class.
Again, thank you to all of our witnesses today.
Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for having this hearing.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Murray.
I am pleased to welcome our witnesses. I will introduce
three, and then Senator Murray will introduce one.
The first witness will be Mark Schneider, vice president
and institute fellow with the American Institutes for Research.
Prior to joining the Institute, Dr. Schneider was Commissioner
of the National Center of Education Statistics at the U.S.
Department of Education. His current work is focused on
increasing accountability through improved public disclosure of
data related to institutional productivity at the State level.
Our next witness, Ms. Deborah Santiago, co-founder, chief
operating officer, and vice president for Policy at Excelencia
in Education. She co-founded Excelencia in Education to
accelerate Latino student success in higher education, and some
of her recent work has involved how to best provide information
to students. She has served in a number of policy and advisory
roles at the Department of Education and at the White House.
Our third witness today is from Tennessee. Stacy Lightfoot
is vice president of the College and Career Success Initiatives
at the Public Education Foundation located in Chattanooga. In
her role, Ms. Lightfoot trains local high school guidance
counselors to help students in finding the right college to
best meet that student's needs. She has earned several awards
at the State, local, and national levels in recognition of her
work in the college-going process. She earned her bachelor's
degree in communications from DePauw University in Indiana, and
her master's degree in international service from the
University of Roehampton, during which she spent teaching in
Jamaica.
I now turn to Senator Murray to introduce our final
witness.
Senator Murray. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I am very pleased to introduce Taleah Mitchell, who came
all the way from Washington State to be here today. Taleah
recently went through Washington State's integrated basic
education and skills training program, or what we call I-BEST,
at one of our State's largest community colleges. Taking
classes at Seattle Central College, Taleah was able to learn
the skills she needed to forge a clear career path. She
recently earned a certification in business information
technology and an associate degree in computer science and
women and gender studies and now works at a major company in
Seattle.
As members of the committee will hear in just a bit from
her, Taleah's story underscores the important role of adult
education and its potential to help so many other Americans who
did not think they needed or even had the chance to get a
college degree.
Taleah, thank you for coming all the way here. I look
forward to hearing your testimony today. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Murray.
We look forward to everyone's testimony. May I suggest that
you try to summarize your testimony in about 5 minutes, and
that will give the Senators more of a chance to have a
conversation with you. We will start with Dr. Schneider.
STATEMENT OF MARK SCHNEIDER, Ph.D., VICE PRESIDENT AND
INSTITUTE FELLOW, AMERICAN INSTITUTES FOR RESEARCH, AND
PRESIDENT, COLLEGE MEASURES, WASHINGTON, DC
Dr. Schneider. Thank you. It is my pleasure to be here. As
noted, I am Mark Schneider, and again, thank you so much for
the opportunity to talk with you.
As noted, I had the honor of serving as the Commissioner
for the National Center of Education Statistics from 2005
through 2008. While I was there, NCES redesigned many of its
consumer facing tools to allow easier access to data. I was
actually going to claim credit for the College Navigator, but I
am not so sure if I should do that now.
[Laughter.]
I was also faced with the constant struggle to balance
compelling Federal interests with an equally compelling need to
honor the role of the States as partners in any efforts to
improve consumer information about postsecondary education.
Much of my current work at AIR and at College Measures
involves documenting the labor market experiences of students
as they complete their studies at colleges and universities and
move into and through the workforce.
These experiences lead me to believe that we can and should
organize consumer information into five different categories
that students and their families need to ask questions about
and get answers to these questions in order to better inform
their decisions about where to enroll and what to study.
The five questions for me are: Will I get in? Selectivity.
Will I get out? Graduation Rates. How long will it take? Time
to degree. How much will I pay? And how much will I earn?
With these pieces of information, we can construct the
equivalent of return on investment calculations that should aid
students in understanding where to best allocate and invest
their time and money.
As we think about these five questions and how to answer
them, there are four cross-cutting issues that we need to
always keep in mind.
First, any efforts to develop consumer information about
postsecondary education must--absolutely must--contain
information about subbaccalaureate credentials. The interest in
associate degrees and certificates granted by community
colleges is growing much more rapidly than the demand for any
other kind of information.
Second, the United States must break what I call its
``bachelor's addiction.'' Yes, the bachelor's degree is a great
degree, and for most people, it has a good return on the
investment. The fact of the matter is that subbaccalaureate
credentials can put students directly into the middle class and
many students earning technical degrees from community colleges
can out-earn bachelor degree students. We have to move beyond
the bachelor's addiction.
Third, we need to battle our fixation on institution level
data. We all love league tables. We all like to look at how my
university is doing compared to other universities. These
league tables at the institution level is dangerous. It is a
distraction because there is more variation across student
outcomes by program than there is by institution. We need data
at the program level way beyond the institution level.
Finally, gathering the information is not enough. Getting
information into the hands of consumers is a giant challenge,
and it is not clear to me that the Federal Government, which
has an enormous capacity to create and collect the data,
actually has that capacity to disseminate it.
I just want to spend a minute or so on the last question
that I posed above, and how much will I make? Because
ultimately, most students say the reason they go to college is
to have a good career and have high wages.
For a variety of reasons detailed in my written testimony,
I believe Congress needs to find a way to allow student data to
be matched with Federal tax data collected by the IRS and to
have these data more widely used and distributed. I understand
that this is fraught with privacy concerns, but I believe that
we have the capacity to protect these data. There are strong
statistical methods to protect these data and make them secure.
I believe that since the Federal Government has such a
compelling interest in the outcome for students that are
getting title IV student aid, a reasonable place to start is
merging the Federal income tax data with FSA data, but this has
to be done at the program level, not at the institution level.
I believe that these data should be made widely available to
researchers and to Federal departments. The Federal Government
does not share data very well with each other.
Of equal importance, I believe that the Federal Government
should make clear a policy allowing State governments to match
their much more complete student data with Federal tax data. In
this way, we could move beyond the measurement of student
outcomes beyond the 60 percent covered by the FSA data and we
could use the more complete sweep of State-held student data
for detailed analysis consistent with State policy needs.
To conclude, I think that the Federal Government can and
should create high quality data, but that the dissemination
should be left to others. The data should be put in the hands
of private companies and State governments, not-profit
organizations that could experiment with a variety of measures
and metrics and a variety of ways of producing those data and
getting them into the hands of consumers.
Thank you so much.
[The prepared statement of Dr. Schneider follows:]
Prepared Statement of Mark Schneider, Ph.D.
summary
I believe that we can and should organize consumer information into
five different questions that students and their families need to ask
(and answer) to better inform their postsecondary education decisions
about where to enroll and what to study.
1. Will I get in? (Selectivity).
2. Will I get out? (Graduation rates).
3. How long will it take? (Time to complete).
4. How much will I pay? (Net price).
5. How much will I make? (Post completion earnings).
Answering each of these questions presents challenges, but none are
insurmountable. We can make progress with the measures the Federal and
State governments already collect. We can and should do better--all the
while protecting the privacy of these data and minimizing the burden on
States, which will likely have to provide much of the data needed to
answer these questions.
My work with Andrew Kelly, ``Filling in the Blanks'', shows that
choices across postsecondary institutions can be improved by good data
presented simply. How we proceed to provide this information will
matter. To ensure widespread use, we can distinguish at least three
audiences for these data: Students, their families and the guidance
counselors who help students find and choose schools; State
policymakers; and Federal policymakers.
While the underlying data these audiences need may be the same, the
way in which the data are presented and which strands are highlighted
will vary.
The Federal Government is in the position to create a consumer-
oriented database that can answer all five questions identified
earlier. However, it is far from the best actor when it comes to
disseminating the data in a usable form. Rather, I believe the Federal
Government should help create high quality data and then make the data
widely available to States and the private sector and encourage the
creation of applications based on these data. Many efforts will
inevitably follow, as States, companies and not-for-profit
organizations experiment with different user interfaces, emphasizing
different metrics. This competition will likely yield the best
solutions to the need for better, more widely used consumer information
about the large and growing number of postsecondary options available
across the land.
All of this work should be done in close cooperation with State
governments and must proceed cautiously, considering privacy issues and
minimizing reporting burdens placed on States.
______
Good morning, Chairman Alexander, Ranking Member Murray, and
distinguished Members of the committee. My name is Mark Schneider and I
wish to thank you for the opportunity to share some of my views on
consumer information and postsecondary education.
I had the honor of serving as the Commissioner of the National
Center for Education Statistics from 2005 through 2008. During that
time, NCES created College Navigator, still one of the most heavily
used sites run by the U.S. Department of Education. While I was
commissioner, NCES also redesigned other consumer facing tools, such as
the NAEP Data Explorer, to allow easier access to NCES data. I also
constantly struggled to balance compelling Federal interests with the
equally compelling need to honor the role of the States as essential
partners in any efforts to improve consumer information about
postsecondary education.
Previous to my joining NCES, I was a distinguished professor of
political science at the State University of New York at Stony Brook,
where I developed expertise assessing how information can help inform
school choice. That work was focused on K-12 education and in the early
2000s led to the creation of DCSchoolSearch.com, one of the first
attempts to help parents access information about the performance of
all DC public schools, traditional and charter.
Much of my current work at the American Institutes for Research and
at College Measures\1\ involves detailing the labor market experiences
of students as they complete their studies at colleges and universities
and move into and through the workplace.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ The American Institutes for Research AIR is one of the world's
largest behavioral and social science research and evaluation
organizations. Founded in 1946 as a not-for-profit organization, AIR is
committed to using the best science available to bring the most
effective ideas and approaches to enhancing everyday life. College
Measures is a joint effort of AIR and Optimity-Matrix Group created to
improve the efficiency of postsecondary education in the United States
and to help students find programs of study that will lead to higher
wages and better labor market outcomes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The goal of this work is to document differences in earnings over
time and to identify postsecondary credentials with high market value.
This work has been with State governments and my State partners all
share a commitment to put this information into the public sphere in a
form that is usable by different audiences. To date, College Measures
has partnered with Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Minnesota, Tennessee,
Texas and Virginia.
This work lead me to believe that we can and should organize
consumer information into five different questions that students and
their families need to ask (and answer) to better inform their
decisions about where to enroll and what to study.
1. Will I get in? (Selectivity).
2. Will I get out? (Graduation rates).
3. How long will it take? (Time to complete).
4. How much will I pay? (Net price).
5. How much will I make? (Post completion earnings).
The first question springs naturally to the minds of many
students--driven by the quest for admission to the most visible and
most selective universities in the Nation, institutions that have
acceptance rates that makes admission only slightly more likely than
winning a State lottery. The last question about earnings is of great
importance to students; depending on the survey, around 80 percent or
more of students queried say that getting a good job and strong
earnings are among the most important reasons they go to college. We
have the responsibility to help them identify programs that will help
them achieve that goal.
Most students probably don't pay enough attention to questions 2
and 3, because they assume that they will graduate on time. However, we
know that there is wide variation in both graduation rates and time to
degree and that this variation is consequential to the success students
will experience in the labor market and their ability to pay off their
loans. Finally, the Nation has made progress on publicizing the
difference between sticker and net price, but we still have much work
to do on measuring the difference between these two sets of prices and
letting people know about their true cost of getting a postsecondary
credential.
Answering each of these questions presents challenges, but none are
insurmountable. We can make progress with the measures the Federal and
State governments already collect. We can and should do better--all the
while protecting the privacy of these data and minimizing the burden on
States, which will likely have to provide much of the data needed to
answer these questions.
Before turning in more detail about some of the challenges in
developing consumer information in each of these five categories, I
turn to four issues that cut across all of them.
First, any efforts to develop consumer information about
postsecondary education must include information about subbaccalaureate
credentials, such as associate's degrees and certificates, most of
which are delivered by America's community colleges. One reason is
evident by looking at trends in student enrollments: The number of
subbaccalaureate degrees granted in the United States is growing more
rapidly than the number of bachelor's degrees awarded. Last year,
subbaccalaureate awards granted almost equaled the number of bachelor's
degrees issued, although the bachelor's degree still remains the most
commonly granted college credential.
Second, the United States must break its ``bachelor's addiction.''
Empirically, the bachelor's degree is a good investment--on average and
in the long run. However, many students do not have the time, money or
inclination to pursue this degree. There is consistent empirical
evidence, much of it produced by College Measures, that
subbaccalaureate credentials can lead to earnings that exceed those of
bachelor's graduates and that place students earning those credentials
squarely in the middle class. The data also show that the
subbaccalaureate credentials with the most market value produce
students who know how to fix things (e.g., technicians) or how to fix
people (e.g., health care). These credentials can help the Nation fill
the need for ``mid-skilled'' level workers, where some postsecondary
training but not a bachelor's degree are the usual requirements.
Third, in addition to battling our bachelor's addiction, we need to
battle our fixation on institution level measurement. We love league
tables that rank campuses against one another. Student outcomes can
vary more by program of study than by institution. In other words: What
a student studies often is more important than where they study it. In
turn, we need to deliver usable consumer information at the program
level.
Finally, gathering good information is not enough--getting
information into the hands of consumers in a format that is useful,
usable, and used is a challenge. It is not clear to me that the Federal
Government, which has a unique capacity to gather the data, has an
equal capacity to disseminate it.
With these thoughts in mind, I return to some of the issues in
helping students understand why the answers to each of these five
questions matter.
will i get in?
We need to keep in mind that while many students and their parents
are fixated on the competition for seats in the Nation's most
prestigious universities, the bulk of our colleges and universities
offer broad or open access.
Because there are large differences in student outcomes, any data
collected about gaining admission should help students broaden their
choice of schools, alerting them to the many options they have, and
steering their selection process to options that include schools that
are higher on measures of student success.
will i get out?
The limits on Federal graduation rate statistics, reported through
IPEDS, are well-known. Most basically, they are still based on first-
time, full-time, beginning students, a declining proportion of
America's college students. While the coverage of different student
populations will expand in the next few years, the new graduation rate
data will still be at the institution level.
We need to move to the collection of program level graduation
rates. Given the number of students who change majors (and swirl
through campuses), this will be difficult, but we need to start down
this path.
Admittedly, this will add a burden on to State data systems, but we
need to balance that burden against the rewards this information can
have for students. To compensate, we should identify other components
of IPEDS that are burdensome without producing commensurate benefits.
This is a task I know this committee is taking seriously.
how long will it take?
The time it takes to earn a degree is important. The longer a
student is enrolled in pursuing a credential the more likely it is that
``life happens,'' derailing student progress. As is well-known,
students who don't complete their studies will usually have a harder
time paying off their loans. Moreover, each year spent enrolled is one
more year of tuition paid out and one more year of foregone earnings.
While it is possible to use IPEDS to estimate the average time to
degree for institution-level graduation rates, we need to gather time
to degree by program. Texas already reports these data, information
that other States should be collecting and reporting.
Again, this may increase burden on State systems, but these data
are far more important to help students understand the consequences of
their choices than much of the data the Federal Government compels
States and institutions to gather.
how much will it cost?
Thanks to congressional action, the Nation has made great strides
in making public the difference between sticker price and net price.
However, according to recent work by Andrew Kelly at the American
Enterprise Institute, most students still do not have good information
about the true costs they will encounter--and they are far more likely
to overestimate the cost of college, which can discourage attendance.
Any tools we develop to estimate costs must allow students to enter
personalized information. For example, in the My Future Texas
application College Measures built,\2\ students can enter personal
information from their own financial aid letters to compare their
likely costs to earn a degree. The application takes into account the
time to degree for the program in which the student is interested to
estimate total cost.
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\2\ Available at http://www.myfuturetx.com/
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how much will i make?
Yes, postsecondary education is about many more things than making
money, and, yes, college graduates usually are healthier, live longer,
and engage in our democratic processes at higher levels than non-
graduates--but the path to all of these rewards largely runs through
success in the labor market. In addition, students themselves
overwhelmingly say that the prospect of good careers and strong
earnings drives their desire for postsecondary education.
Not surprisingly, I believe that we need program level earnings
data. Right now, these data come from States' unemployment insurance
(UI) wage data. Many States link their UI data to student level
information detailing the year of graduation and program/institution of
study, allowing detailed reporting of earnings of graduates as much as
10 years after graduation.
The problems with these State UI wage data are well-known: students
who move across State lines to work are no longer found in the data
system of the State where they earned their degree. In some States,
such as Colorado, only around 40-45 percent of the students in the
State's student data system can be matched to data in the unemployment
insurance wage system. In big States like Texas and Florida, with
booming economies, match rates are 20 percentage points higher. These
are still low--and we don't know how much error is introduced as
students choose to leave the State.
Match rates also vary across institutions, with rates for graduates
from State flagships lagging the rates from regional comprehensive
campuses. Field of study also matters: match rates for teachers, where
State certification matters for employment, are far higher than for
engineers.
The Wage Record Interchange System (WRIS 2) held out some promise
to ameliorate the problem of interstate movement of graduates. WRIS 2
is a consortium of over 30 States that theoretically agreed to search
for UI wage data requested by other members of the consortium. If this
system worked as planned, coverage would expand dramatically. However,
some very large States are not in the WRIS 2 consortium--and States
that are members often do not honor the requests from other States.
Match rates hover in the single digits and about \1/3\ of the States in
the consortium do not run requests from other member States.
The alternative is accessing Federal tax collected by the IRS. I
recognize and appreciate that using these data is fraught with privacy
concerns. Nonetheless, based on my experience at NCES and following the
work done by other Federal agencies, especially the Census Bureau, I
believe that there are sufficiently strong statistical procedures that
can be employed to protect the data. With such protections in place, I
believe the Congress should seek ways to allow the U.S. Department of
Education to collaborate with other Federal agencies to match data
about students education with IRS earnings data.
I believe that since the Federal Government has a compelling
interest in the outcomes of students receiving title IV aid, a
reasonable place to start would be to match FSA data with tax data.
However, to be useful the FSA data must be expanded to capture program
of study. I also believe that the Federal Government should make clear
a policy to allow State governments to match their much more complete
student data with Federal tax data.
next steps
Let us assume that the Nation makes a commitment to expand the
collection of consumer data. How we proceed will matter. My work with
Andrew Kelly, ``Filling in the Blanks,'' \3\ shows that choices across
postsecondary institutions can be improved by good data presented
simply. To ensure widespread use, to paraphrase the perennial
description of real estate, it is essential to keep in mind three
fundamentals about data usage: audience, audience, audience.
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\3\ Available at https://www.aei.org/publication/filling-in-the-
blanks/.
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We can distinguish at least three audiences for these data--and
while the underlying data may be the same, the way in which the data
are presented and which strands are highlighted will vary. Trying to
satisfy all three audiences with the same data application may not be
possible.
students, their families and the guidance counselors who help students
find and choose schools
The data for this audience need to be tailored to help students
find schools and programs that they are likely to complete and that
will give them a strong chance to enter the middle class. They need to
be able to understand that a bachelor's degree is not the only path
into the labor market. Given the well documented low levels of
financial literacy among young adults, they may need targeted help to
understand the consequences of their decisions and how their choices
translate into outcomes they can easily grasp: such as what kind of car
will I be able to afford or will I be able to live somewhere else but
my mother's basement.
We also have to recognize that guidance counselors can act as
intermediaries helping students navigate the data to choose programs
that will lead to more success following completion. Guidance
counselors are notoriously overworked and most are not trained to guide
student college choices. We need to provide them with better mechanisms
for accessing information to help better guide their students.
However, I am not at all sanguine that the Federal Government can
produce applications that will be appealing to this audience.
state policymakers
States invest large amounts of money in their postsecondary systems
because these systems are viewed as human capital investment designed
to help the State remain economically competitive. At the current time,
States also ``own'' both student data and the State Unemployment
Insurance (UI) wage data. This allows them to build far more powerful
applications documenting labor market outcomes and credentials with
high market value than the Federal Government can.
Furthermore, most States are now building performance-based
budgeting systems to reward colleges and universities that are
exceeding benchmarks. Most of these systems are dominated by measures
of the flow of students through the institutions (e.g., retention or
graduation rates of different types of students), but many States have
already included or are considering the inclusion of wage data into
these budget systems.
One motivation behind this movement is clear: the returns to the
taxpayer should play a role in State budget allocations. While most of
my previous discussion focused on student returns, taxpayers and their
representatives also have the right to know about the returns on their
investment in their State's colleges and universities.
For taxpayer returns to be better measured, we not only need to
measure better student earnings, we also need better measures of the
amount of government subsidies flowing into and through campuses: This
ultimately will require better information about how government money
is actually spent when it gets to campuses. This may require either
better State finance data tracking systems and likely a systematic
overhaul of IPEDS finance data.
federal policymakers
There is a compelling Federal interest measuring how well the
Nation's large investment in title IV student aid pays off to students
and taxpayers. Despite legitimate privacy concerns, linking FSA data
with IRS tax data is essential. FSA data would need to be modified to
include information about the programs in which title IV recipients are
enrolled. These merged data would cover around 60 percent of all
students in the Nation.
In addition to or in lieu of Federal action, the Congress should
make it possible for States to contract with the IRS or the Social
Security Administration to merge State held student data with Federal
income tax data. Again, these data would be returned to the States
aggregated at the program level and subject to statistical methods,
such as perturbation, to ensure privacy.
concluding remarks
Clearly, the Federal Government is in the position to create a
consumer-oriented database that can answer all five questions
identified earlier. While States can and do develop data systems that
answer these questions, the Federal Government can create a post-
completion earnings database that no State or private entity can come
close to matching in terms of coverage and quality. As noted, I believe
the Congress should create such a database starting with FSA data and
Congress should also endorse the ability of States to match their own
student data with IRS tax data. The Federal Government has a role
working with States to improve the measurement of time to degree- and
program-level graduation rates. This should be approached as a
partnership in which the Federal Government helps States achieve their
policy goals and not as Federal mandates.
While the Federal Government can be the most powerful actor in the
Nation in creating these databases, it is far from the best actor when
it comes to disseminating the data in a usable form.
The long and contentious history of gainful employment and the
shorter but equally fraught history of the current attempts to create a
college ratings system show the dangers of Federal overreach.
I work with Money Magazine on Money's Guide to Best Colleges. We
use a variety of data to help identify schools where students get the
best outcomes for their investment of time and money. We have no
regulatory authority and if people don't like our rankings system, they
simply won't buy the magazine. A Federal Government system, especially
one tied to, say, title IV funding, carries totally different
consequences. I believe the Federal Government should help create high
quality databases and then make the data widely available. Many efforts
will follow, as States, companies--such as Money Magazine and College
Measures--and not-for-profit organizations experiment with different
user interfaces, emphasizing different metrics. This competition will
likely yield the best solutions to the need for better, more widely
used consumer information about the large and growing number of
postsecondary options available across the land.
Thank you for your time and for your consideration of these ideas.
The Chairman. Thank you, Dr. Schneider.
Ms. Santiago.
STATEMENT OF DEBORAH A. SANTIAGO, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER AND
VICE PRESIDENT FOR POLICY, EXCELENCIA IN EDUCATION, WASHINGTON,
DC
Ms. Santiago. I want to also thank you all for allowing me
to come and speak with you giving the perspective we have at
Excelencia in Education.
I am Deborah Santiago and have multiple hats at a small
nonprofit organization. Our mission is to accelerate Latino
student success in higher education. For us, that is not the
exclusion of any other students, but too often Latinos are the
footnote or the aside, and the reality is that increasingly
that is the majority of students. For us, it is an opportunity
to look at these institutions. They kind of represent the post-
traditional students that we really need to be focusing on at
the Federal level and institution level. For us post-
traditional as opposed to nontraditional--I think
nontraditional presumes we are going to go back to a way of
being that we are not meeting a norm of tradition. I think the
reality is we are beyond that. We are never going to get to
that point where the majority of our students are that
traditional student and profile. For us, that is an important
distinction because the information that flows to those
students is predicated on understanding who they are, and for
us, that is an important part of how we approach data.
We are also very data-focused. For us, the focus of the
data is really to inform and compel action because we do find,
despite the volume of data, there is still profound ignorance
about who there students are, where their needs are, and where
they intend to go--and the ability to use that is summarily
important.
For us, the use of good, accurate information is critical
for the students and the choices they make, especially low-
income, first-generation students. Too often we find this is
complicated for students and families because the data
themselves and the construct that informs our choices are
constantly in flux. When you have institutional selectivity,
costs, financial aid, and workforce opportunities constantly
changing, it is hard to imagine a student or family can find
ways to mitigate the 4,000-plus institutions and opportunities
they have in a significant way. I think there is a role for the
Federal Government to be able to assist us in narrowing down
those choices and get to what could be more of a best fit,
presuming that we will never know perfect information, but
having a good sense.
Our experience is that these post-traditional students tend
to be very pragmatic, and the information they choose is maybe
not what we would always want or think they should know, but
they are dealing in an environment that is incredibly complex.
And we always want to recognize that.
In dealing with data, I will say because it is complex, I
think you need to be very multilingual. I speak Spanish,
English, and data, and I think that is important when we deal
with the kinds of populations we are trying to serve. They rely
on intermediaries that can find a way, that can understand the
complexities of tables and charts and rates, which I think very
few of the general public understand what that means, and our
ability to serve as an intermediary to help them is summarily
important especially when we are looking at the multiple
audiences.
From my perspective, there are three audience that take
advantage of or that can take advantage of the Federal
information that is collected, and these are all consumers in
my mind. One is certainly students. As I said, I think they
have very pragmatic perspectives that I think we need to be
respectful of. I think cost, access, and work opportunities are
important. I think also the opportunity to look at things side
by side. The College Navigator has a plethora of information.
Our experience is that students maybe take a look at three or
four points. I have yet to find a student who makes any choice,
though, based on graduation rate. They tend to think that they
can be the exception rather than the norm. We have to just
acknowledge that that is the case. For the students that we
deal with, the low-income, first-generation, they want to be
the exception to the norm in their families because no one in
the family has gone to college, and the data they consume are
predicated on that perspective.
Best fit is informed by what they think is possible, not
just what data say because they are already outliers in their
family. They are people of privilege because they are going to
be going to college. That perspective is I think important as
we think about this.
Students are actually critical, and to the extent the
Federal Government can speak to them, I think it is predicated
on the value of intermediaries. I think Mark already mentioned
this. For us, it is important. We look at groups like Gear Up,
Trio, NCAN, NACAC. I know all the alphabet soup that we deal
with here whether it is counselors or other organizations. They
are critical in the translation of good information to
students, and students rely on these intermediaries because
they have direct contact and trust in the community in ways
that, unfortunately, it is too hard at the Federal level to be
able to get. Relying on those kinds of organizations, as my
own, are really important to be able to get good information in
the hands of students and families. That is what matters.
I think the last group that has a critical role is
research. I know that we are talking about consumer
information, but if we look at the intermediary role, the
ability to take a look at institutional effort--we do a lot of
work looking at Hispanics over the institutions, what are they,
who is enrolling, what do we see in terms of completion, what
more can be done. It is important that intermediaries are able
to take a look at that and inform policy and practice.
I would also say that as we are looking to these issues--
issues like under-matching where the assumption is that there
is perfect information, students are just making bad choices--I
think contrasts with this idea of a best fit and understanding
that post-traditional students use the best information they
have available and how can we get that in to them so that we
are looking at issues that are critical to the student being
the center rather than assuming they are making bad choices
with the information they have. It is critically important to
understanding what is a very complex choice situation between
students and families.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Santiago follows:]
Prepared Statement of Deborah A. Santiago
summary
Having accurate and useful information is critical to student and
family choices for college access and success. However, three current
realities are challenging the increased efforts at the Federal level to
provide useful information to a diverse polis of potential college-
goers: (1) limited awareness of how to reach the growing representation
of Latinos, adults, veterans, and other ``post-traditional'' students
ready to access college; (2) the resistance to change of institutional
structures designed for ``traditional'' students; and, (3) the constant
fluctuations of factors informing choice, such as institutional
selectivity, costs, financial aid, and workforce opportunities.
Key findings and recommendations:
1. Low-income and potentially first-generation college-goers make
pragmatic college choices. Whereas conventional wisdom asserts students
make college choices based on financial aid, institutional prestige,
and academic programs offered, more contemporary research has found
post-traditional students are increasingly making college choices based
on college costs, institutional accessibility, and location.
Understanding these distinctions can improve the crosswalk between what
students want to know and should know to find the ``best fit'' in their
college choices.
2. Transparency of targeted and appropriate information on
postsecondary education requires strategic outreach and engagement for
maximum effectiveness. Detailed information has limited benefit if it
does not reach those with the most need for it through intentional
outreach and engagement of diverse communities. Implementing government
outreach strategies that partner with organizations who are already
aware and able to serve the information needs of post-traditional
students can better support the college choices students make to find
their ``best fit'' college option.
3. An abundance of information about college options does not
necessarily improve the chances of post-traditional students finding
their ``best fit'' college. In this day and age, sophisticated search
engines have been developed to simultaneously inform and guide consumer
choices based on basic preferences (i.e., Google, Netflix, and Amazon).
Help in narrowing options can facilitate the navigation of too much
information so that potential students with limited college knowledge
can still find a ``best fit'' college.
4. Providing useful information about college options early and
often in an educational pathway creates awareness and knowledge among
students and their families that can help them prepare for their access
and success. Maternity wards, K-12 schools, and community-based
organizations are viable venues along the educational continuum that
can provide information to prepare potential students with a roadmap to
enroll in college so that their expectations and costs for persistence
and completion are clear.
5. Identifying post-traditional students is needed to design
tailored information and outreach. Disaggregating data by the very
characteristics that define post-traditional students can improve the
targeted and intentional strategies to reach these students and can
further inform the impact of those strategies for effectiveness.
______
Chairman Alexander, Ranking Member Murray, and HELP Committee
members, thank you for the invitation to participate in this hearing to
discuss information for students and parents and the potential to
better inform college choice. Everyone in the United States deserves a
shot at the American Dream. The American Dream is the Nation's idea
where everyone has the opportunity for success and upward social
mobility through hard work in a society with few barriers. Today, a
college education is increasingly required for success and upward
social mobility, but educational attainment has not been reached
equally by all and barriers continue to exist.
I am Deborah Santiago, chief operating officer and vice president
for policy at Excelencia in Education (Excelencia). Excelencia in
Education accelerates Latino student success in higher education by
promoting Latino student achievement, conducting analysis to inform
educational policies, and advancing institutional practices while
collaborating with those committed and ready to meet our Nation's goal
of improving educational success. Launched in 2004 in Washington, DC,
Excelencia is building a network of results-oriented educators and
policymakers to address the U.S. economy's need for a highly educated
workforce and engaged civic leadership.
While some believe a focus on race and ethnicity divides us as a
society, Excelencia in Education believes acknowledging racial and
ethnic trends describes our society, and therefore, helps us understand
it. This does not exclude other groups in society. Our purpose is to
consider seemingly inflexible issues in postsecondary education with a
more contemporary lens. This lens provides a fresh perspective to
consider redesigning consumer information and data using this young and
growing population as the baseline, rather than the footnote, from
which to develop more effective policies, engage diverse stakeholders,
and enhance active tactical responses necessary to better serve a
majority of students, not just Latinos. Excelencia starts our
discussions about postsecondary education with a consideration of the
Latino population, because, despite our long-standing existence and
growth in the United States, too often Latinos are not considered at
all, or are an afterthought in education issues. We cannot reach our
national goals of an educated citizenry and workforce without a
tactical plan that includes Latinos.
Now you have a sense of the lens from which Excelencia has formed
our perspective on information for students and families and their
college choices. One final point that informs my lens: I am a person of
privilege who has benefited from the American Dream. I am privileged
because I have a college education. Less than one in two adults in the
Nation, and less than one in four Latino adults in the Nation, have
earned an associate degree or higher. I was raised to believe with
privilege comes responsibility to give back to others who do not have
the same privileges. While I had emotional and financial support from
my parents, it was my responsibility to figure out how to apply, enroll
and pay for college. I was lucky. I went to college in a traditional
pathway (straight from high school to college, lived on campus, and
finished in 4 years). This traditional pathway is no longer the
prevalent pathway for the majority of students today. These experiences
and knowledge inform the work to help our current and future students
also become people of privilege.
information for students and families
Having accurate and useful information is critical to student and
family choices for college access and success. However, three current
realities are challenging the increased efforts at the Federal level to
provide useful information to a diverse polis of potential college-
goers: (1) limited awareness of how to reach the growing representation
of Latinos and other ``post-traditional'' students ready to access
college; (2) the resistance to change of institutional structures
designed for ``traditional'' students; and, (3) the constant
fluctuations of factors informing choice, such as institutional
selectivity, costs, financial aid, and workforce opportunities.
limited awareness of post-traditional students
Sharing broad profiles of students to guide public policy obviously
muddles the individual profile or experience, but is a necessary tool
to work at scale. The traditional student profile currently drives so
much of the information shared about college today. However, this
profile represents less than 20 percent of students enrolled in college
today, and their representation is shrinking. In fact, the majority of
college-going, and potentially college-going students are ``post-
traditional.'' Whereas the term ``nontraditional'' is often used to
describe students that do not fit into a traditional profile, the term
``post-traditional'' better describes the growing majority of students
of today. We are not returning to a student majority that fits the
traditional profile entirely. Post-traditional students include part-
time, returning, veteran, commuting, adult, Latino and other
traditionally underrepresented students. They are the majority of
students today. Consider the contrast between the traditional and post-
traditional student profiles.
The post-traditional student profile offers a contemporary lens to
more accurately see America's student population from which
policymakers can develop more effective policies, engage diverse
stakeholders, and enhance tactical responses to better inform and serve
a growing majority of students in postsecondary education today and in
the future.
information needs of post-traditional students and families
Considering the information needs of this diverse set of post-
traditional students complicates an already challenging goal to ensure
public access to purposeful and consumer friendly information that
enables students and families to select colleges or universities that
best fits their needs. A growing body of research as well as work at
Excelencia with communities and institutional leaders across the Nation
has led us to summarize the following about the informational needs of
many post-traditional students and families.
Post-traditional college-goers make pragmatic college choices
About half of all Latino undergraduates were the first in their
family to enroll in postsecondary education. This is not surprising,
since only 7 percent of Latino adults had an associate degree, and only
14 percent had a bachelor degree or higher in 2012. While Latinos are
more likely to be the first in their family to enroll in college than
other racial/ethnic groups, this is not unique to Latinos. Given that
only 41 percent of all adults in the United States have an associate
degree or higher, the children from the majority of adults in the
country are potential first-generation college-goers. This group
characteristic highlights a critical opportunity in public policy to
design and deliver information about college options that increases the
access and success of first-generation college-goers.
Conventional wisdom is that students prioritize financial aid,
institutional prestige, and academic programs as critical factors
influencing their college choice. However, many Latino and other post-
traditional students prioritized college costs, proximity to where they
lived, and an accessible campus as decisive factors in their college
choice. In fact, increasingly post-traditional students are choosing
their institution based on the ``sticker price'' of tuition and related
costs, without significantly factoring in financial aid. They also
appear to be increasingly adapting to rising college costs by choosing
to enroll at less expensive institutions, enroll part-time,
occasionally stop out and return, and work while enrolled.
Recent national discussions that point to high-achieving, low-
income and first-generation students undermatching in their college
choices miss a broader understanding of the factors that inform choice
and applies a conventional understanding of a ``best fit'' college for
a student. Speaking with students and asking why they chose their
institution may yield a better understanding of the students' choices.
In focus groups with low-income and first-generation college-goers,
students repeatedly told us they believed they could get a quality
education anywhere, if they were motivated, so why would they go
elsewhere or pay more? Many of these post-traditional students are
making their own ``tradeoffs'' in deciding what a ``best fit'' college
choice is for them that accommodates their economic needs, family
responsibility and goals for completion with institutional flexibility,
cost, and convenience. This is a pragmatic and self-determining
perspective, and should be respected. However, those of us who study
postsecondary education know the diversity of college options and
opportunities available vary between institutions. If all colleges are
not ``equal,'' what additional information should post-traditional
students factor in to their choices? And how do they integrate or
compare this additional information with what they have already
prioritized as informing their choice?
Understanding the pragmatism that guides the college choices of
many post-traditional students and knowing the prevailing conventional
wisdom of what students and families need to know to make their college
choices can improve the crosswalk between what students want to know
and should know to find the ``best fit'' in their college choices.
Targeted and appropriate information can improve college choices
College choices are both influenced and constrained by educational
expectations, knowledge of options, financial resources available, and
the quality of academic preparation in high school. Studies have shown
that Latinos are more likely than other racial/ethnic groups to value
higher education, but have lower educational aspirations than other
groups. It is hard to refute that strategic outreach and engagement
could improve the actualization of college aspirations. Those who know
the system, know there are resources and support structures available,
even if in disparate locations and systems. Often, post-traditional
students and families have limited knowledge about their college
options and do not know how to navigate the college-going process
without assertive institutional guidance. Today's information assumes a
depth of knowledge about the system of postsecondary educational
options and costs that is out of synch with the data. Too often,
policymakers assume the ``kitchen table'' conversation of postsecondary
education options routinely takes place. However, many post-traditional
students do not have perfect information to inform their college
choices.
There have been recent efforts by the Federal Government to
increase the amount and transparency of information to select and pay
for college. This includes the net price calculator and the ``shopping
sheet.'' The information found on these forms is useful, but one must
consider how those tools are disseminated, and who uses them to make
their college choices. Without intentional outreach and engagement of
diverse communities that reaches those with the most need for
information, these tools will not meet their intended purpose. There is
broad awareness that this conventional information is easy to find,
much less compare between institutions.
Deployment of what is known about effective outreach and culturally
competent strategies should be the norm rather than the exception when
providing access for college options. While many students resort to the
internet to find information about college options, the volume,
quality, and ease of location for this information are often disjointed
and complex. Other students rely on the information and experiences of
other students and community members, and this can also lead to
gathering dated, incorrect, or misleading information as often as
accurate and useful information. Often post-traditional students have
to navigate the complex and extensive options of college choices
without their parents, and while counselors of trust are invaluable for
post-traditional students, without strategic outreach and engagement,
post-traditional students may not be aware of this resource option or
these counselors may not be available to them. The figure below
provides an example of simple information about college-going,
attendance intensity, and associated costs to inform students in a
user-friendly way of their options developed by the University of
Texas-Brownsville and Texas Southmost College. It mimics the basic
overall costs and time to a degree that can inform an individual
education plan. The simple information also makes clear the tradeoffs
for students in a side-by-side manner so that they can make a more
informed decision that fits their needs but also makes them aware of
the cost and time to a degree for each choice.
Source: The University of Texas, Brownsville (2012)\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ The University of Texas, Brownsville posted in 2012 and
retrieved January 2013, at http://www.utb.edu/sa/studentsuccess/gc/
Pages/TheBenefitsofGraduating.aspx.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Too much information can limit college choices
An abundance of information about college options does not
necessarily improve the chances of post-traditional students finding
their ``best fit'' college. With more than 4,000 degree-granting
institutions in the Nation, each with their own enrollment criteria,
cost, course offerings, support services, mascots, and colors,
comparing and contrasting all of these institutions is beyond the scope
of most students and families (and even most experienced college
counselors) who are concurrently juggling many other priorities.
In this day and age, sophisticated search engines have been
developed to simultaneously inform and guide consumer choices based on
initial inputs and basic preferences. Take for example, Google, with
its complex algorithms that rank material by what is most likely linked
to an inquiry, or Amazon and Netflix and their sophisticated
calculation based on previous views or recommendations. Help in
narrowing options can facilitate the navigation of too much information
so that potential students with limited time to become college experts
can glean sufficient knowledge based on their interests that they can
still find a ``best fit'' college.
Is there a Federal role here in limiting college choice by helping
to guide a student to narrow choices among viable and appropriate
options? As the main source of data on all colleges in the Nation, and
with this information provided by colleges, incentivizing the creation
of a public structure that does not rank or rate colleges, but that
allows a student to provide inputs to interface with a more robust
dataset (behind the curtain) by an independent entity may be of great
value to post-traditional students.
Providing information early and often can influence college choices
Providing useful information about college options early and often
in an educational pathway creates awareness and knowledge among
students and their families that can help them prepare for their access
and success. For example, in work Excelencia completed with partners in
California, the idea of offering information about paying and preparing
for college at maternity wards for every new born developed. The
California State University system offered a poster with a college
roadmap from 3d grade to the college gates with academic criteria to
meet at each grade. The information was to be provided in the current
packet of information provided to all new mothers about important
parenting issues, such as their instructions to complete social
security cards for their newborn and vaccination needs. Since one out
of every two births in California was to a Latina, we knew many Latinos
would get information they could use to become better informed and
build their educational pathway to college early. In that same vein, K-
12 schools are building college-going cultures on their campuses, and
community-based organizations are engaged in education strategies to
provide information to prepare potential students with a roadmap to
enroll in college so that their expectations and costs for persistence
and completion are clear.
Identifying post-traditional students is needed to design tailored
information and outreach.
While the Federal Government does collect large amounts of data,
this data is not often used in a manner that informs the targeted
awareness and outreach that can facilitate information sharing on
college options and choices. Disaggregating data by the very
characteristics that define post-traditional students can improve the
targeted and intentional strategies by Federal, State, institutional,
and community programs to reach these students. If paired with
effective outreach, this information can further inform the impact of
those strategies for effectiveness. One constructive way to offer this
data support to inform policy and practice is to link existing data
through efforts such as a student unit record system that follows the
progress of students and allows for timely interventions by
institutions or other privileged providers. This does not imply a
relaxation of student privacy, but rather an alignment of disparate
data systems in a manner that can facilitate targeting of appropriate
research and targeting of better information and options to post-
traditional students.
summary and recommendations
This short testimony offers some insights into the post-traditional
students and families we have been privileged to work with over many
years. While the examples and ideas do not delve into the greater
complexity of information, I hope it helps to frame a more robust
discussion about who these students are and the choices they make to
get access and attain the American Dream of a college education and
social mobility.
Supporting access to postsecondary education remains essential for
Federal policy, and the Federal role in helping to incentivize the
development and dissemination of good information that can inform the
college choices of current and future students is real. However, for
the post-traditional student, access is not sufficient to guarantee
completion. Too often we think getting students in to college is the
biggest challenge. There is a Spanish saying reminiscent of this
``access-only'' approach to postsecondary education: ``Vayan con
Dios,'' meaning, ``Go with God'' or more loosely explained, it may take
divine intervention to facilitate your journey. Information that can
guide college choice as well as the resources and strategies to persist
to completion go hand in hand. The following is a summary of the
perspectives and recommendations raised in this testimony.
Low-income and potentially first-generation college-goers make
pragmatic college choices. Whereas conventional wisdom asserts students
to make college choices based on financial aid, institutional prestige,
and academic programs offered, more contemporary research has found
post-traditional students are increasingly making college choices based
on college costs, institutional accessibility, and location.
Understanding these distinctions can improve the crosswalk between what
students want to know and should know to find the ``best fit'' in their
college choices.
Transparency of targeted and appropriate information on
postsecondary education requires strategic outreach and engagement for
maximum effectiveness. Detailed information has limited benefit if it
does not reach those with the most need for it through intentional
outreach and engagement of diverse communities. Implementing government
outreach strategies that partner with organizations who are already
aware and able to serve the information needs of post-traditional
students can better support the college choices students make to find
their ``best fit'' college option.
An abundance of information about college options does not
necessarily improve the chances of post-traditional students finding
their ``best fit'' college. In this day and age, sophisticated search
engines have been developed to simultaneously inform and guide consumer
choices based on basic preferences (i.e., Google, Netflix, and Amazon).
Help in narrowing options can facilitate the navigation of too much
information so that potential students with limited college knowledge
can still find a ``best fit'' college.
Providing useful information about college options early and often
in an educational pathway creates awareness and knowledge among
students and their families that can help them prepare for their access
and success. Maternity wards, K-12 schools, and community-based
organizations are viable venues along the educational continuum that
can provide information to prepare potential students with a roadmap to
enroll in college so that their expectations and costs for persistence
and completion are clear.
Identifying post-traditional students is needed to design tailored
information and outreach. Disaggregating data by the very
characteristics that define post-traditional students can improve the
targeted and intentional strategies to reach these students and can
further inform the impact of those strategies for effectiveness.
closing remarks
Thank you for the opportunity to share my perspectives on the
information students and families need to help their college choices
and identifying their ``best fit'' institutions. Excelencia in
Education's strategies to accelerate Latino student success in
postsecondary education by applying knowledge to policy and practice
are consistent with the efforts you have demonstrated by holding these
hearings with diverse representation but a common cause: to increase
our Nation's need for a highly educated workforce and engaged civic
leadership.
As you make progress in reauthorization of the Higher Education
Act, Excelencia in Education stands ready to serve as a resource on the
experiences of Latinos and other post-traditional students; the
identification of what programs and practices work to improve their
access, retention, and completion; and, the opportunity to engage with
educators and leaders throughout the Nation that can inform your
important efforts to serve all of us well and ensure our continued
prosperity.
The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Santiago.
Ms. Lightfoot.
STATEMENT OF STACY LIGHTFOOT, VICE PRESIDENT OF COLLEGE AND
CAREER SUCCESS INITIATIVES, PUBLIC EDUCATION FOUNDATION,
CHATTANOOGA, TN
Ms. Lightfoot. Chairman Alexander, Ranking Member Murray,
and members of the HELP Committee, thank you for the
opportunity to be here to testify about consumer information in
the college choice process.
As a low-income African American female, statistics
suggested that I would continue to live in poverty, work a low-
wage job, and not obtain a college degree. My mother was a
single parent. I came from a single-parent home, and my mother
made less than $12,000 a year when I went off to college.
However, she made sure that I was surrounded by trusted adults
and role models to supply me with great information. As a
result, I knew the importance of an education.
I was only familiar with my local options, a community
college or a State school. My college counselor then--her name
was Susan Chipley, now Susan Street--led me to research a jewel
of a campus in the cornfields of Greencastle, IN that led me to
DePauw University. She knew my family situation. She steered me
in the right direction to a perfect college that met my
personality, that matched my personality, my learning style, a
college that met my family's financial need, and offered study-
abroad programs and various majors from which I could choose, a
college that knew what to do with a student like me, a poor
black girl from the South. It was the perfect fit.
The information that Ms. Chipley stored in her head about
colleges across the country was mind-blowing. She was
associated with regional and national networks that enabled her
to follow admissions trends, understand relevant data, and
build a professional network that allowed her and gave her the
power to be the best advocate for students like me. She was my
translator.
Because of the knowledge of one advocate, the trajectory of
my life has changed, and that is the reason that I do what I do
now, working with public school counselors to provide them with
the resources and the information and the space to share best
practices, to collect information and to understand the
information to collect to help students in the college choice
process. Helping students find the right postsecondary fit for
all students is why I do what I do.
As stated in a white paper on college under-matching
produced by the Tennessee College Access and Success Network, a
good match is not defined purely by selectivity or prestige but
by a complete series of factors that signify the institution
will be able to nurture the student's potential through a
college degree.
Students select colleges based on, obviously, location,
major size, admissions requirements, and costs, extracurricular
opportunities, those basic things that we know about. Students
do not know to ask questions or know the implications of these
factors: college graduation rates, retention rates, percentage
of financial need met, average financial aid package, average
of indebtedness at graduation, occupational outlook, and job
placement rates. In the words of Kim Cook, executive director
of the National College Access Network,
``Today's students are in need of the right
information to help them make decisions to attend a
school that best matches their academic qualifications
and provides the best environment to support the
ultimate completion.''
An additional strategy under the Higher Education Act could
include requiring colleges to publish accurate data on long-
term student outcomes on their websites. Much like the policy
for postsecondary institutions participating in the title IV
Federal student aid programs where colleges post the net price
calculator to its consumers, it has been helpful in helping
students understand a clear picture of their financial
responsibility. An additional policy under the Higher Education
Act could include colleges to accurately and easily post this
information on their websites on job placement rates, financial
aid outcomes, including default loan rates, that is readily
available and accessible on each institution's website.
I applaud Senators Lamar Alexander and Michael Bennet for
working together on revising and simplifying the format of the
FAFSA. A simplified version of the FAFSA could reduce the
frustration and encourage more families to apply for financial
aid. That would be life-changing for a lot of students.
Including prior prior-year income and asset data when
submitting the FAFSA may address issues of accessibility and
affordability. Providing clear data on Pell Grant recipient
graduation rates will help college admissions professionals
like myself and the admission professionals with whom I work
guide their low-income, under-represented students to schools
that will ensure their completion.
In conclusion, of course students can Google their way to
making a college decision, but that choice may not be the best
fit. Vital elements are missing about college transparency
around publicizing pertinent data, and these data are central
to helping students select the best fit institution where they
are most likely to succeed and graduate.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Lightfoot follows:]
Prepared Statement of Stacy Lightfoot
summary
Chairman Alexander, Ranking Member Murray, and members of the HELP
committee, thank you for the invitation to give testimony about
consumer information that students and families need to make informed
choices about college options; and also, to make recommendations on
behalf of college access professionals from around the country for HEA
reauthorization. I am a proud resident of Tennessee and have been for
most of my life except for the years I was in college at DePauw
University (Greencastle, IN) for my undergraduate degree; and, at the
University of Roehampton (London, England) for my master's degree.
about me
As a low-income, African American female, statistics suggested that
I would continue to live in poverty, work a low-wage job and not obtain
a college degree. My mother was a single parent who made less than
$12,000 a year. However, she made sure that throughout my life I was
surrounded by trusted adults and positive role models.
As a result, I knew the importance of education. However, I was
only familiar with my local options--a community college and a State
school. My college counselor, Susan Chipley, led me to research this
jewel of a campus in the cornfields of Greencastle, IN. She knew my
family situation and steered me in the right direction--to a perfect
college that matched my personality and learning style, a college that
met my family's financial need, offered study abroad programs and had
various majors from which I could choose. A college that knew what to
do with a student like me--poor, black girl from the south. It was the
perfect fit.
The information Ms. Chipley stored in her head about colleges
across the country was mind-blowing. She was associated with regional
and national networks that enabled her to follow admissions trends,
understand relevant data, and build a professional network that would
give her power to be the best advocate for her students. Ms. Chipley
was my ``translator''.
Because of one knowledgeable advocate, the trajectory of my life
changed for the better. After graduating with my master's degree, I
entered the world of college access and success to impact the lives of
students--to become a ``Ms. Chipley'' to other students. As the vice
president of College & Career Success Initiatives at the Public
Education Foundation (PEF), I am passionate about training college
access professionals and informing the students and parents about the
myriad of postsecondary options available--and helping to find the
right postsecondary ``fit'' for all students.
As stated in a white paper on college student undermatching
produced by the Tennessee College Access and Success Network,
``A good match is not defined purely by the selectively or
prestige of the institution, but by a complete series of
factors that signify the institution will be able to nurture
the student's potential through to degree completion.''
what information should students know to make their college choice?
Students select colleges based on location, major, size, type,
admission requirements, costs, and extra-curricular opportunities to
name a few. However, other factors may not be as seemingly important to
students and their families in the selection process--mainly because
they don't think about these aspects or their implications. However,
savvy college access professionals encourage students to also think
about the following as part of the college selection to determine
``best fit'':
College graduation rates,
Retention rates,
Percent of financial need met,
Average financial aid package,
Average indebtedness at graduation,
Occupational outlook, and
Job placement rates.
recommendations
In the words of Kim Cook, executive director, National College
Access Network,
``Today's students are in need of the right information to
help them make decisions to attend a school that best matches
their academic qualifications and provides the best environment
to support ultimate completion.''
An additional strategy under the Higher Education Act could include
requiring colleges to publish accurate data on long-term student
outcomes on each institution's website. A student's understanding of
these data will go a long way to increasing their awareness on best fit
college choice.
I applaud Senators Lamar Alexander and Michael Bennet working
together on a revised and simplified format for the FAFSA. A simplified
version of the FAFSA form could reduce frustration and encourage more
families to apply for financial aid. Also, using ``prior-prior year''
(PPY) income and asset data when submitting the FAFSA may address
issues of access and affordability.
Providing clear data on Pell grant recipient graduation rates will
help college admissions professionals guide their low-income students
to schools that will ensure their completion.
conclusion
Sure, students can ``google'' their way to making a college
decision, but that choice may not be the best fit. Vital elements are
missing about college transparency around the publicizing of pertinent
data. These data are central to helping students select the best fit
institution where they are most likely to graduate.
______
Chairman Alexander, Ranking Member Murray, and members of the HELP
committee, thank you for the invitation to give testimony about
consumer information that students and families need to make informed
choices about college options; and also, to make recommendations on
behalf of college access professionals from around the country for HEA
reauthorization. I am a proud resident of Tennessee and have been for
most of my life except for the years I was in college at DePauw
University (Greencastle, IN) for my undergraduate degree; and, at the
University of Roehampton (London, England) for my master's degree.
about me
As a low-income, African American female, statistics suggested that
I would continue to live in poverty, work a low-wage job and not obtain
a college degree. My mother was a single parent who made less than
$12,000 a year. However, she made sure that throughout my life I was
surrounded by trusted adults and positive role models. These adults
also made sure I was involved in extracurricular activities and
participated in high impact programs that honed my leadership and
academic skills and built my confidence.
As a result, I knew the importance of education. However, I was
only familiar with my local options--a community college and a State
school. DePauw University isn't a college that many Tennesseans attend,
especially low-income, African American public school students from
Chattanooga. Once again, it was a trusted adult that changed my life.
My college counselor, Susan Chipley, led me to research this jewel of a
campus in the cornfields of Greencastle, IN. I didn't have money to
attend college and knew I would have to depend on grants, scholarships
and loans to make college a reality. Ms. Chipley knew my family
situation and steered me in the right direction--to a perfect college
that matched my personality and learning style, a college that met my
family's financial need, offered study abroad programs and had various
majors from which I could choose. It was the perfect fit.
My decision to work in the world of college and career advising
stems from the support I had as a high school student. If a poor, black
girl from the east side of Chattanooga can overcome barriers to attend
college on full financial aid package and study abroad in Italy, other
students can do it, too. Neither I nor the people around me let my
background determine my fate.
my ``translator''
My college counselor was dynamic. Ms. Chipley had visited hundreds
of college campuses, met countless admissions professionals, and knew
hidden facts about colleges. She was regarded as ``the college
admissions guru.'' The information she stored in her head about
colleges across the country was mind-blowing. Little did I know then
she was associated with regional and national networks that enabled her
to follow admissions trends, understand relevant data, and build a
professional network that would give her power to be the best advocate
for her students. Ms. Chipley was my ``translator.'' My family and I
didn't know much about the college application process, but she had
knowledge that matched me up to the best value and college option. She
was armed with the ability to interpret information she'd gathered
through her college contacts and professional development experiences.
Had it not been for my ``translator'' and college admission advocate, I
would have gone to the local university and lived at home, which seemed
like the best value and only option coming from a low-income
background.
Because of one knowledgeable advocate, the trajectory of my life
changed for the better. She is the reason I now give back to my
community. After graduating with my master's degree, I entered the
world of college access and success to impact the lives of students--to
become a ``Ms. Chipley'' to other students. As the vice president of
College & Career Success Initiatives at the Public Education Foundation
(PEF), I am passionate about training college access professionals and
informing the students and parents about the myriad of postsecondary
options available--and helping to find the right postsecondary ``fit''
for all students.
introduction to pef and my work
At PEF, we believe there's nothing more important to our
community's future than transforming our public schools. We're an
independent, nonprofit, community-based organization that, for 25
years, has provided training, research and resources to teachers,
principals, college and career advisors and schools in Chattanooga, TN
and surrounding areas. Our mission is to increase student achievement
so all students succeed in learning and in life. In pursuit of that
mission, PEF's college and career success initiatives focus on
encouraging students to explore their options for postsecondary
education, and provide them with support and access to tools to help
them accomplish their goals. Through a variety of programs and
supports, our work strives to continually increase the number of
Chattanooga public school students who seek and matriculate to
institutions of postsecondary training and learning.
One of our signature initiatives is providing training for College
and Career Advisors and school counselors who work part-time in all of
our public high schools. We meet with a network of counselors and
advisors and provide them a space to share best practices, inform them
on the latest trends in college admissions and career development, and
share data about their students--all to increase their knowledge so
they can work more effectively with high school students and their
families. Since PEF began supporting college advisors in 2005, the
number of high school graduates going to college has increased by 30
percent (from 1,324 in 2005 to over 1,714 in 2014). In 2005, our high
school graduates matriculated to 121 colleges across the country; in
2014, the number of colleges and universities increased to 200. The
number of scholarship dollars has more than doubled with the class of
2014 bringing in $20 million in scholarships.
Intense support students receive from knowledgeable adults has been
the key to our success. Our college access professionals work with
students 1-on-1, in groups, host college and financial aid nights, plan
college tours, and a host of other strategies that increase knowledge
and postsecondary options for students.
the students and their challenges
As a former college advisor in the public school setting, I've
worked with students from diverse socioeconomic and cultural
backgrounds. Chattanooga's demographics capture urban, suburban, and
rural public school students. I've worked with students whose families
had the means to pay out-of-pocket for college; and, those whose
families had financial hardships like me. And, there's everything in
between.
Ashlyn's Story
Ashlyn lived with her grandmother. She knew she wanted to go to
college, but lacked the knowledge to choose the best fit. During May of
her senior year, she planned to attend her State's flagship
institution, a choice she wasn't excited about. She came to my office
crying because the thought of going to a large institution overwhelmed
her. I asked Ashlyn what she wanted from her college experience and she
said, ``A small environment where I can get personalized attention.'' I
called a colleague at a small liberal arts institution in a neighboring
State and shared her story. The director of admission encouraged her to
visit the next day. I paid for her Greyhound bus ticket and a
representative from the college picked her up at the terminal. She
toured campus and instantly fell in love. While visiting the financial
aid office during this visit, they offered her over $30,000 in
financial aid, which included the Pell grant. A few months later,
Ashlyn started her freshman year at Oglethorpe University and completed
a sociology degree in 5 years. It wasn't an easy transition, and she
struggled all throughout college with grades and balancing her time.
However, the support she received from various departments and the
individualized attention available to her at a small college ensured
her success. It was a perfect fit.
Robert's story
Robert had his mind set on Columbia College in Chicago to major in
art. On one hand, Columbia College was a good fit. It was an
institution Robert could see himself at for 4 years. He enjoyed being
away from home and experiencing the city life of Chicago. However, the
cost of Columbia College was well beyond what his low-income family
could afford. He wasn't offered a substantial financial aid package,
but he wasn't familiar with other options that may be a good fit for
his interest but more affordable. Robert felt that everything would
fall into place once he enrolled. He saved some money, secured loans
and used the Pell grant to pay for college. It still wasn't enough.
After the first semester, Robert had to drop out of college because he
accrued a $6,000 debt from the first semester. Therefore, he wasn't
able to complete even his freshman year. Now, 26 years old, Robert
can't even enroll at the community college because of his previous debt
and will not receive a degree until that debt is paid off. I see him
from time to time working odd jobs around the city. His still has
aspirations to finish college.
I share these stories to highlight the challenges of the students
who need postsecondary guidance the most. As stated in a white paper on
college student undermatching produced by the Tennessee College Access
and Success Network:
A good match is not defined purely by the selectivity or
prestige of the institution, but by a complete series of
factors that signify the institution will be able to nurture
the student's potential up to degree completion. This match is
of the utmost importance for low-income and first-generation
students, because they often lack the necessary support systems
to help them navigate not only the college-going process, but
also college persistence. Statistics prove that some colleges
successfully graduate more low-income and first-generation
students than others.
Both Ashlyn's and Robert's stories reflect the different
aspirations and challenges associated with college selection for some
students. What information would have steered Robert to make a better
financial decision in his college selection? Would getting a financial
aid package before May of his senior year convince him to consider
alternative college options with better aid packages? Or by getting
Columbia's financial aid earlier, could he have had more time to save
money to fill in the financial aid gap? Why would Ashlyn have settled
for a college that wasn't the best fit? Her campus visit to Oglethorpe
University sealed the deal. However, her family couldn't afford to send
her on visits that happened outside of what her school planned.
what information should students know to make their college choice?
On the surface, the answer to this question is easy. Students
select colleges based on location, major, size, type, admission
requirements, costs, and extra-curricular opportunities to name a few.
Students are asked to think about these criteria often. Other factors
may not be as seemingly important to students and their families in the
selection process--mainly because they don't think about these aspects
or their implications. However, savvy college access professionals
encourage students to also think about the following as part of the
college selection to determine ``best fit'':
College graduation rates;
Retention rates;
Percent of financial need met;
Average financial aid package;
Average indebtedness at graduation;
Occupational outlook; and
Job placement rates.
Had Robert had some of this information at his fingertips, would he
have chosen to attend a college he could not afford or finish? I would
like to think he would have made a better decision based on his
financial situation. Unfortunately, this data is not easily accessible
to counselors, students and families. College access professionals have
to be familiar with sites such as College Navigator, College Score Card
and other resources in order to use them effectively to guide students.
Many public school counselors, especially those with high student
caseloads, don't receive adequate training to disseminate relevant
information to families. Students who don't have trusted experts in
their corner will resort to ``googling'' their way to make their
decision or taking unsound the advice from family or friends, like in
Robert's case.
One colleague asserts:
Ultimately, students want to know if a college is right for
them, and that means knowing how a college or university will
best serve their needs and aspirations. Students want to know
if they will ``fit in'' to their college community. Will there
be venues and resources to help cultivate an engagement in
community life? In my experience, students learn best when they
have a sense of belonging and purpose in an educational
community. Some students also want to know about how to afford
their education over 4 years. All students should know how this
will happen. Students should know how much loan debt they might
need to take on AND how much loan debt is advisable given their
school, program, and career aspirations. Simply put, students
should know three essential things when they make their college
choice:
Will I be well-served by this college community,
and will this be a place where I can engage and be productive?
Will I have marketable skills and career options
coming out of this college? What resources will the college
invest in me to ensure that I have a relevant outcome (career
services, grad school counseling, internships, and research
opportunities)?
Can I afford this college, and is it advisable to
take on a debt burden given my potential outcomes and career
aspirations?--Joseph Freeman, The Randolph School.
approaches to increasing awareness and areas of improvement
Chattanooga is uniquely positioned to provide quality training for
college access professionals. We have seen a significant increase in
the number of students going to college as well as an increase in their
postsecondary options. PEF puts time into training counselors and
advisors on how to engage, connect and coach students and their
families through the postsecondary process. Through training, PEF
provides current and relevant information from the field. We build
capacity within our schools through this team of professionals who take
information back to teachers, students and parents. Each of our schools
is growing their college-going culture and celebrating the successes of
students who choose to attend apprenticeship and certificate programs,
2-year and 4-year colleges. PEF has dedicated staff collecting data on
where our students are matriculating and where they are succeeding.
That data is shared in our network and used to advance our work to
increase student achievement.
Just as our counselors and advisors use data to engage in
conversations around what works and what doesn't, students need data,
too--data that is accessible, transparent, and accurate. A student's
understanding of an institution's graduation and retention rates,
graduate job placement rates, and financial aid outcome, will go a long
way to increasing their awareness on best fit college choice. However,
students can only get this information from knowledgeable adults who
share it with students and translate it for them and their families.
Supports for students must start before they step onto a college
campus. There must be supports in place for students at the high school
level because success starts long before students enter college.
Schools and other community-based organizations across the country are
doing phenomenal work to ensure that public schools students,
especially underrepresented students, are successful in the college
application process. It would be ideal for the government to support
schools and programs that offer college advising services; and, ensure
that Elementary and Secondary School Counseling Programs (ESSCP) is
protected and strengthened in the Elementary and Secondary Education
Act (ESEA). There are model community-based programs, like PEF or
Achieve MPLS, that could be grown and supported throughout the country.
Although an ambitious dream, all public school students should have
full-time experts who help them to navigate the college choice process,
particularly high poverty schools. The work in Chattanooga has
positively impacted students with the assistance of part-time college
access professionals. I can only imagine how much greater the impact
would be if full-time expert professionals were available to students
around the country.
how can laws change to meet the needs of students and families?
The policy for postsecondary institutions participating in the
title IV Federal student aid programs to provide estimated net price
information (net price calculator) to its consumers has been utterly
helpful for students to get a clear picture of their financial
responsibility based on their individual situations. An additional
policy under the Higher Education Act could include requiring colleges
to publish accurate data on long-term student outcomes that comprise
graduation and retention rates, job placement rates, financial aid
outcomes (including default loan rates) that is readily available and
accessible on each institution's website. Although this information can
be gathered from various websites, students often aren't savvy enough
to know to look for and interpret these data.
Applying for financial aid poses a challenge for many families,
especially underrepresented families. Even for the most skilled parent,
the process is intimidating. I appreciate Senators Lamar Alexander and
Michael Bennet working together on a revised and simplified format for
the FAFSA. A simplified version of the FAFSA form could reduce
frustration and encourage more families to apply for financial aid.
Also, using ``prior-prior year'' (PPY) income and asset data when
submitting the FAFSA may address issues of access and affordability. In
Robert's case, understanding and interpreting his financial aid package
earlier may have resulted in attending an institution that met more of
his financial need. He now is in default on his loans. With guidance,
Robert could have better anticipated the costs of a Columbia College
education and made a different choice.
Filing the FAFSA earlier would require intuitions to estimate State
and Federal aid awards earlier, which poses a concern for colleges who
feel that unless legislatures and Congress set funding levels for at
least 1 year ahead, they would have to rely on estimates in order to
package students.
Reflecting on Ashlyn's story, her college provided her with robust
supports while she was a student. Oglethorpe understood her
disadvantaged background and never gave up on her. It was an
institution that was committed not only to admitting low-income
students, but their commitment manifested itself and extended into an
``arms around approach'' to ensuring her college completion. The
graduation rates of Pell grants students at institutions is a good
gauge of an institute's promise to the success of all its students.
Measuring the success of low-income college students is a key goal of a
Federal college rating plan originally outlined by President Barack
Obama. However, it's unclear if the government's college ratings will
be able to include that measurement, given the current inadequacies of
the data collected by the U.S. Department of Education.
U.S. News and World Report conducted their own study and gathered
income-based, 6-year graduation rate data. This information was
collected in a statistical survey of colleges and universities in
spring 2014. They used this data to show which schools they categorized
as top performers, overperformers and underperformers when comparing
the 6-year graduation rate for students from the fall 2007 entering
class who received Pell Grants and the 6-year graduation rate of the
entire class. Providing clear data like this will help college
admissions professionals guide their low-income students to schools
that will ensure their completion. When students like Ashlyn or Robert
ask the question, ``How do students like me do at this institution?'',
the data can paint that picture.
in conclusion
In the words of Kim Cook, executive director, National College
Access Network,
``Today's students are in need of the right information to
help them make decisions to attend a school that best matches
their academic qualifications and provides the best environment
to support ultimate completion. We are encouraged that a
conversation is widening on the topic of information available
to students.''
My colleagues and I feel that all students deserve effective
postsecondary advising. Ideally, students can get valuable information
from their school counselors or college counselors. However, not every
school has a college counseling department or professional. There must
be a way that we can grow college access organizations in communities
to impact the students who need it the most because those who need it
most are at the greatest risk of not matriculating to college and/or
succeeding. Our low-income and first-generation students are suffering
and not competitive for high-wage jobs.
Sure, students can ``google'' their way to making a college
decision, but that choice may not be the best fit. ``Vital elements are
missing,'' stresses Cook about college transparency around the
publicizing of pertinent data. These data are central to helping
students select the best fit institution where they are most likely to
graduate.
The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Lightfoot.
Ms. Mitchell.
STATEMENT OF TALEAH MITCHELL, GRADUATE, SEATTLE CENTRAL
COLLEGE, SEATTLE, WA
Ms. Mitchell. Good morning, Chairman Alexander and
honorable committee members. Thank you for the opportunity to
share information about my successful educational journey. I am
very excited and pleased to be here.
I would also like to thank Senator Murray from my home
State of Washington for her steadfast support of adult basic
education programs.
Last but not least, I would like to thank you also for the
Federal financial aid that has given me the opportunity to move
from less than desirable circumstances into what has enabled me
to pursue my dreams and go for more.
When I was younger, I could have never imagined sitting
before a congressional committee in Washington, DC. I am very
honored and humbled to be here.
My name is Taleah Mitchell. I am one of the hundreds of
thousands of students who have transformed their lives at a
Washington State community or technical college. For me
specifically, the turning point was a basic education for
adults program called I-BEST, which stands for Integrated Basic
Education and Skills Training. In this testimony, I hope to
share my personal story clearly, describe how it fits into the
larger narrative of Washington's community and technical
college system, and provide ideas for how the Federal
Government can strengthen information and support for non-
traditional college students.
In my opinion, we are a very important group of people that
a lot of times are under-represented. There is quite a few of
us and we have a colorful story and we are quite capable of
achieving a lot more than what is thought of us and what is
expected of us.
To give you all a little bit of background information for
me, I am 27 years old, and being a non-traditional student, I
went to the fourth grade in San Francisco, CA. That is
something that is somewhat typical for me as a Roma descendent,
which is gypsy nationality. I studied quietly on my own,
learning to read and write because at a young age I understood,
for whatever reason, the value of education and knew that I
wanted to achieve a lot more in my life.
At 16 in Chicago, I started studying for my GED. I passed
the assessment with flying colors at the institution where I
was studying. Five months later, I took the GED test. I scored
extremely high percentiles in everything except for math.
Instead of getting discouraged and giving up, I decided that I
needed to take remedial math courses at a different setting,
and that was at Harold Washington College in Chicago, and I was
able to take regular college-level courses in conjunction with
that. I was given a Starlight Award from Literacy Chicago
because of a commitment to literacy and efforts as a public
relations intern at the organization.
During the second semester, I had to drop out and help run
my family's business. A year later, I took the GED again, this
time in West Virginia and passed all the portions.
Later on during that time in my life, things got really
difficult for my family, and I was kind of thrown in chaos and
moved around a lot. I worked entry-level jobs that were far
beneath my capabilities and barely got my family and myself
anywhere. The GED got me a job but it did not get me a career,
and I was still going job to job and paycheck to paycheck.
My turning point was at the age of 25 in Seattle at the
YWCA. I saw a flyer for the I-BEST program through Seattle
Central College. I learned that I-BEST offered a clear path to
an in-demand field with a wide array of support services. A
counselor explained that they would be with me every step of
the way, and they helped me with everything that came from
applying for financial aid, looking through course catalogs,
planning schedules, finding classes, managing my time, and
overall just being a life coach for my life, which is really
imperative.
With I-BEST, the hallmark is you have two instructors in
the same classroom. This tag team teaching approach gives a
student the opportunity to have lots of time with their
instructors. One instructor teaches job skills, and with that,
students learn foundational skills at the same time they are
trained for in-demand jobs. The other instructor provides
skills like reading, writing, math, and English language. It is
really amazing. The information sticks because you have access
to all these people, and with this two-for-one approach,
students learn more thoroughly and in a shorter amount of time.
I earned a certificate in business information technology,
and as a requirement for graduating with that certificate, I
had an internship and I served as a teaching assistant and a
math tutor in I-BEST in the same classroom that I started with.
I got to come full circle.
At Seattle Central College, I was inducted into the honor
society. I was one of the student body presidents. I served on
a scholarship board. These are things I never dreamed I would
be capable of doing.
With I-BEST, I really want to emphasize that without the
financial aid that was afforded to me, I would have never been
able to go into any type of higher education institution. The
BFET program, or Basic Food and Employment Training, which is
Washington State's version of the SNAP program, unemployment
benefits, grants, and financial aid, including the Pell Grant,
gave me the reassurance that I would be able to not only do
this but complete this.
At Seattle Central College, I was approached by Amherst and
Smith Colleges to actually pursue the degree that I wanted for
women's studies and computer science. My father fell ill during
that time with cancer, and that opportunity for me was cut
short. But, I do plan to continue my education with computer
science and women's studies, to continue and complete that.
I would love to inform you that my brother at this point--
my younger brother--has also enrolled in Seattle Central
College and is following in my footsteps and is also looking at
the government board as well.
My final recommendations for you guys is that college
career pathways gives us basic skills, workforce, academic
transfer, and it is imperative that we continue to fund those
programs. The old notion that basic skills education ends at
the GED is very outdated, as I hope to witness to you. It did
not get me as far as I would have like it to have gotten me.
The WIOA program, which is Workforce Innovation Opportunity
Act, enables I-BEST and programs like that to happen and
enables students like myself to succeed.
Some of my ideas is to remove the cost barriers to students
by fully funding the program and expanding opportunities for
students to repay loans based on how much they earn. Student
debt, as you brought up, is a growing national crisis, and we
need to be able to power through that.
We also need a centralized education option for prospective
students, so a central Federal portal that contains relevant
college information, whether it be a website or possibly an
app, I think would be really powerful. I was really lucky to
find a flyer at the YWCA. It was pretty random that I just
walked in and saw that. A lot of students do not have that
opportunity--and prospective students--which is something that
having a portal would enable them to do.
In conclusion, the future of our country depends upon
higher education, and I appreciate your dedication to ensuring
all Americans can step up on this path anytime in their lives.
I obviously would not be here without the opportunities you all
helped afford and through funding our Nation's 2-year colleges
and the innovative programs created for adults like me.
Thank you very much for your time.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Mitchell follows:]
Prepared Statement of Taleah Mitchell
summary
My name is Taleah Mitchell. I'm a 27-year-old, nontraditional,
first-generation student of Roma descent. I grew up in San Francisco
and went to public school through the fourth grade, when my formal
education came to an end. Nevertheless, I continued to study on my own,
learning to read and write.
Halfway through my 16th year, while living in Chicago, I took the
GED test and scored in the top percentiles in all sections except
math. I enrolled in a community college and took remedial math courses
in conjunction with my college classes. During my second semester I had
to drop out of school to help run the family business full-time.
After eventually passing all portions of the test, the GED program
got me a job, but it did not get me a career or move me out of a cycle
of living from job-to-job and paycheck-to-paycheck, with no hope of
saving any money.
My turning point came when I discovered the I-BEST program at
Seattle Central College at the age of 25. I-BEST gave me a clear path
to an in-demand job, with a wide array of support services. Advisors
helped me every step of the way, from start to finish and into a
career. I-BEST uses a team-teaching approach that puts two teachers in
the classroom: one to teach basic skills, the other to train students
for in-demand jobs while using those basic skills.
I earned a certificate in Business Information Technology and now
work as an assistant manager at a major employer in Seattle.
I am just one of thousands of nontraditional students who are
changing their lives at one of Washington State's 34 community and
technical colleges.
I'd like to share a few recommendations for the committee to
consider during future discussions:
Remove cost barriers for students by fully funding the
Pell Grant program, and provide funding for advisors who can help
students navigate the financial aid process. Financial aid was a big
factor in my success. Advisors helped me weave together a financial aid
package that included Basic Food and Employment Training--the
Washington State version of the Federal SNAP program--along with
unemployment benefits, grants and financial aid.
Ensure that any centralized portal for college information
clearly identifies programs like I-BEST that have defined pathways
through college and into careers. Students need to know what's
available to them so they can make well-informed choices.
Provide legislation and funding support for college-to-
career pathway programs. This includes fully restoring the Ability to
Benefit option under the Pell Grant.
The future of our country depends upon higher education and I
appreciate your dedication to ensuring all Americans can step on this
path at any time in their lives. Thank you.
______
Chairman Alexander and honorable committee members, thank you for
the opportunity to share information about my successful educational
journey. I'd also like to thank Senator Murray from my home State of
Washington for her steadfast support of Basic Education for Adults
programs.
Thank you, also, for the Federal financial aid that has given me
the opportunity to move from low-income into college so that I can
achieve my dreams in life. When I was younger, I could never have
imagined sitting before a congressional committee in Washington, DC.
I'm honored and humbled.
My name is Taleah Mitchell. I'm one of the hundreds of thousands of
students who have transformed their lives at a Washington State
community or technical college. For me, the turning point was a Basic
Education for Adults program called I-BEST (Integrated Basic Education
and Skills Training).
First, a little context on my background.
I'm a 27-year-old, nontraditional, first-generation student of Roma
descent. I grew up in San Francisco and went to public school through
the fourth grade, when my formal education came to an end.
From the ages of 10 to 16, I studied quietly, learning to read and
write.
Halfway through my 16th year, I learned I could study to receive a
GED. With this newfound knowledge, I found an organization called
Literacy Chicago, an adult basic education organization. I passed the
assessment test with flying colors and moved straight into GED
preparation classes.
After 5 months, I took the GED test and scored in the top
percentiles in all sections except for math. Instead of getting
discouraged, I decided to study math in a different setting while
beginning my college career. I took a college placement exam at Harold
Washington College in Chicago and placed straight into non-math,
college-level courses.
Because of my high marks, I was able to take remedial math courses
in conjunction with my college classes. In 2006, I was given a
Starlight Award from Literacy Chicago because of a commitment to
literacy and efforts as a public relations intern at the organization.
During my second semester at Harold Washington College, my family
met with difficult times and I had to drop out of school to help run
the family business full-time.
A year after my college experience, I took the GED test once
again--this time in West Virginia--and passed all portions of the test.
However, my life was thrown into chaos once again when the family
business collapsed and we bounced around from several different States.
At each place, I found myself only able to work entry-level jobs that
were beneath my capabilities and barely kept my family afloat.
The GED program got me a job, but it did not get me a career or
move me out of a cycle of living from job-to-job and paycheck-to-
paycheck, with no hope of saving any money.
I was trapped in a cycle of economic insecurity with no way out.
My turning point was at the age of 25, when my family landed in
Seattle. I wandered into a YWCA and saw a flyer for the I-BEST program
through Seattle Central College.
I learned that I-BEST offered a clear path to an in-demand job,
with a wide array of support services. A counselor explained that
they'd be with me every step of the way, from start to finish and into
a career. And that's exactly what happened. Advisors helped me apply
for financial aid, look through course catalogs, plan schedules, find
classes and manage my time.
The hallmark of I-BEST is that it puts two instructors in the same
class at the same time: one teaches basic skills like reading, writing,
math and English language, and the other teaches job skills. Students
learn foundational skills at the same time they train for in-demand
jobs.
The information sticks, because students can immediately apply what
they've learned in a real-world setting. And, because it's a two-for-
one approach, the classes can be completed in a shorter timeframe.
I earned a certificate in Business Information Technology. One of
the final requirements was to have a working experience in the field of
study. Interestingly, I served as a teaching assistant and as a math
tutor in the same I-BEST class where I had been a student and in the
very subject that I had struggled with earlier in my life. It was
exciting to come full circle.
During my time at Seattle Central College, I got into honors
society, became student body president and served on a scholarship
board. I never lost passion for education or for my fellow
nontraditional students.
Naturally, financial aid was a big factor for me. Advisors helped
me weave together a financial aid package that included Basic Food and
Employment Training--the Washington State version of the Federal SNAP
program--along with unemployment benefits, grants and financial aid.
This gave me reassurance that the rug wouldn't be pulled out from under
me, as it had so many times in the past.
Today, I have a career as an assistant manager with a leading
Seattle-based employer and intend to continue my studies. While at
Seattle Central, I was approached by Amherst and Smith colleges, but my
father fell ill and I chose to stay in Seattle. I'm happy to say my
brother has followed my footsteps and is currently attending Seattle
Central College.
As I mentioned before, I am fortunate to sit before you as one of
thousands of success stories made possible by Washington's community
and technical college system.
washington state's community and technical colleges
The college I attended--Seattle Central College--is one of
Washington State's 34 community and technical colleges. Altogether,
they serve nearly 400,000 students each year. The college system dates
back to 1967, when it was created by the State Legislature. In 1991,
the Legislature added technical colleges to the system. The colleges
are organized into 30 districts spread across mountains, cities,
rivers, and islands touching every corner of the State.
Colleges work together to present the State Legislature with a
single operating and capital budget request. When those budgets are
passed, the State funding goes to the State Board for Community and
Technical Colleges, which then allocates funds to the colleges. This
allows colleges to serve their individual communities while forming a
powerful network to advance Washington's economy.
The strength of this system is not only in its organization. It's
also in its mission to open the doors to higher education for all
residents of Washington State, regardless of their personal or academic
backgrounds. For nontraditional students, they offer a second chance
for a new life.
The education at these 2-year colleges is practical, promising and
purposeful. Colleges use innovative instruction models, work closely
with local employers and labor representatives, and partner with
universities to serve the unique needs of nontraditional, 21st century
students.
The average Washington community or technical college student is 26
years old. Forty-three percent work, 28 percent are parents, and 42
percent are students of color.\1\
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\1\ SBCTC Fall Quarter Enrollment and Staffing Report .
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As you can see, the average student isn't what it used to be. We
are adults that need supported, accelerated, real-world services that
save us time and money.
The beauty of community and technical colleges is that programs are
built and sustained locally to meet the economic and employment needs
of the community. All of the job-training programs are led by customer
advisory committees made up of community leaders, business and labor
representatives, and college faculty and staff. These committees create
and build curricula aligned with emerging industry demands and
employers' needs.
college and career pathways
In Washington State, education is a continuum--from early learning,
through K-12 and college, and into a career. At the heart of the 2-year
college system is a college and career pathway model that allows
students at any skill level or life stage the opportunity to earn a
college credential and climb a career ladder. I-BEST is a perfect
example.
In Washington State, the average annual income of the typical
associate-degree graduate is 33 percent more than someone with a high
school diploma alone. These income levels rise with each level of
education earned and open greater possibilities for students and
employers.\2\
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\2\ Washington State Student Achievement Council presentation to
House Higher Education Committee, Jan. 14, 2014.
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The Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (WIOA) solidified the
importance of a college and career pathway. States are now required to
provide opportunities for employment, education and training needed for
today's global economy. WIOA requires college Adult Basic Education
programs to move students past the GED level and into college or
careers.
Connecting students to a college and career pathway has never been
more important. By 2016, nearly three-fourths of available jobs in
Washington State will require at least a postsecondary credential.\3\
Over the next 20 years, there simply won't be enough high school
graduates to meet the higher education needs of Washington State's
workforce. Our State will need to fill the gap with older adults--a
faster growing population that is burgeoning in areas of the State with
less educational attainment.\4\
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\3\ 2013 Roadmap: A Plan to Increase Educational Attainment in
Washington, by Washington Student Achievement Council.
\4\ SBCTC research findings: ``Washington State Population and
Employment Data 2010-2030, Implications for Community and Technical
Colleges.''
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I know from personal experience that Washington State's community
and technical colleges are key to filling employment gaps with skilled
workers because they did that for me. It's critical for underskilled,
sometimes underemployed adults to have the same access to innovative,
accelerated and meaningful educational and workforce training. And now
they do.
In addition to WIOA, the Washington State Basic Education Plan:
Pathways to College and Careers for Washington's Emerging Workforce is
focused on getting students through college faster and into living wage
jobs. Programs under this plan move people further and faster along
well-defined pathways into college and careers. The plan builds upon
the proven success of the I-BEST program in moving students rapidly
toward industry-recognized credentials that lead to well paying, long-
term careers. I'm an example of this program's success: from where I
started, to where I am today, and where I'm going tomorrow.
Washington State's community and technical college adult education
providers partner with regional agencies, organizations, institutions,
and industry leaders to build, scale and maintain demand-driven career
pathways to meet emerging employer needs. Certificates are marketable
and stackable, meaning that each certificate builds on the other to
lead to a longer-term certificate or associate degree. These pathways
connect education, training, and support services in new ways that
foster success for all individuals as intended under WIOA.
innovative programs
Washington State's 2-year colleges serve nearly 6 out of every 10
students in public higher education.\5\ The community and technical
college system focuses on three mission areas: basic skills, workforce
and academic transfer. All three mission areas share the same goal:
move every student through college and into a life-sustaining job.
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\5\ Fifty-seven percent per Washington State Office of Financial
Management 2013-14 Budget Driver Report.
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Basic skills
Basic Education for Adults (BEdA) programs teach foundational
skills such as reading, writing, math and English language, so adult
students can move through college and into living wage jobs. Unlike
other States, BEdA programs are contained in the State's 2-year college
system instead of the K-12 system. Programs are aligned with the WIOA
principle of a college and career pathway that contains crucial
milestones and goals for students to reach along the way. Community and
technical colleges partner with community-based organizations to help
serve the estimated 650,000 to 700,000 Washington adults who lack the
basic skills necessary to be successful.\6\
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\6\ SBCTC, 2008-12 5-year; 2010-12 3-year American Community Survey
estimates.
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Washington State BEdA programs:
Serve adults at least 16 years old who have skills below a
high school graduate or need English language skills;
Include General Educational Development (GED) and high
school diploma programs;
Use a team teaching approach such as I-BEST (Integrated
Basic Education and Skills Training);
Integrate instruction with technology; and
Teach employability or ``soft skills'' such as
communication, time management, problem solving and decisionmaking.
High school completion
Washington State's community and technical colleges not only open
the door to college, they also help students finish a high-school level
diploma or credential. Colleges offer GED preparation and testing, as
well as innovative programs like High School 21+, a competency-based
diploma for adults 21 and over that awards credit for prior learning
and military and work experience. These programs give all
Washingtonians, regardless of age or skill level, the opportunity to
complete high school and connect to a college and career pathway that's
right for them.
I-BEST
As I mentioned, the I-BEST program was my ticket to a new life.
Nationally recognized, the program is modeled in more than 20 States
including Tennessee, Oregon, Wyoming, Wisconsin and Massachusetts. It
uses a team teaching approach that combines basic skills classes with
job training classes to move students faster to completion and into
living wage jobs. This combined teaching method allows students to
begin college-level coursework immediately, so they don't have to move
through a mandated sequence of basic skills classes first. Students
save time and money and learn skills in ways applicable to their career
goals.
In my case, dedicated instructors helped me brush up on basic
skills as I simultaneously learned information technology skills.
I-BEST now serves nearly 4,000 students. Programs include
healthcare, automotive, manufacturing, transportation, early childhood
education, aeronautics and office technology. Students enrolled in I-
BEST programs are:
Three times more likely to earn college credits and nine
times more likely to earn an industry-recognized credential than
students in traditional programs who must complete basic skills classes
before training for employment.\7\
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\7\ SBCTC, ``'Educational Outcomes of I-BEST, WA State Community
and Technical College System's Integrated Basic Education and Skills
Training Program,'' Community College Research Center, Columbia
University, May 2009.
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Earn an average of $2,645 more in wages each year and
receive twice the work hours per week (35 hours versus 15 hours) than
similar adults who do not receive basic skills training in any form.\8\
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\8\ Workforce Training and Education Coordinating Board, Workforce
Training Results, 2014.
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workforce
Washington State's workforce system includes multiple State
agencies, organizations and stakeholders that partner to provide real-
time education and training that directly align with high-demand jobs.
The 2-year college system plays an important role in developing
relevant curricula, job training programs for employers, and industry
partnerships to keep pace with today's changing workforce demands.
Washington State's community and technical colleges along with their
former students contribute approximately $11 billion to the State's
economy each year.\9\ I'm proud to be among them.
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\9\ Economic Modeling Specialists, Inc., Economic Contribution of
Washington's Community and Technical Colleges: Analysis of Investment
Effectiveness and Economic Growth, 2011.
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With statewide business and labor, Washington State's community and
technical colleges offer a wide array of professional-technical
programs in high-demand fields. These include agriculture, aerospace,
business administration management, composites, nanotechnology,
nursing, and welding.
Basic Food, Employment and Training
As I mentioned, I benefited greatly from the Washington State Basic
Food, Employment and Training (BFET) program. The program provides
training and job-search help for people who receive food assistance so
that they can earn industry-recognized credentials and land living-wage
jobs. Nearly 10,000 2-year college students are receiving BFET benefits
with funding through the U.S. Department of Agriculture.\10\ All 34
colleges participate across Washington State.
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\10\ SBCTC BFET program, 2014-15.
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Work-based learning
Washington State's 2-year college system offers a variety of work-
based learning opportunities that benefit both students and employers.
Work-based learning allows students to experience how the things they
learn in the classroom are connected to real careers. Examples include
apprenticeships, intern or externships, and work study.
Without a work-based learning option, I wouldn't have had the
opportunity to obtain important skills needed to be successful in
today's job market. These options are important for students starting
in their careers or retraining for a new field.
academic transfer
Washington State's 2- and 4-year colleges and universities have one
of the strongest transfer systems in the country. This includes but is
not limited to:
Common course numbering, which makes it easier for
students to transfer to different colleges within the 2-year system;
Prior learning assessment, which helps students start or
continue college at the place that best fits their previous academic or
workforce experience; and
Direct transfer agreements and major related pathways,
which allow students to transfer at the junior level or enter directly
into a major.
Forty percent of all Washington public baccalaureate graduates
started a 2-year college. These transfer students graduate with similar
GPAs as those who start as freshmen.\11\
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\11\ SBCTC, ``The Role of Transfer in the Attainment of
Baccalaureate Degrees at Washington's Public Bachelor's Degree
Institutions, Class of 2011,'' 2013.
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serving students
Washington State's 2-year colleges serve students from all academic
backgrounds, skill levels and work experiences. Their educational goals
are as varied as the dreams that led them to enroll. Colleges use
multiple tools and resources to reach students with these unique
backgrounds. As I've mentioned, I am one of these students. I directly
benefited from advising and career counseling, not to mention multiple
financial aid options to help me pursue college.
Proactive or intrusive advising
Student advising is a priority of Washington State's community and
technical colleges. Through proactive or intrusive advising, colleges:
Purposefully intervene to motivate students;
Build student trust through regular communication;
Inform students of all available postsecondary options;
and
Work proactively to help students avoid difficulty.
Students excel when they are supported and understand that each
step of their pathway counts. That's how I was able to finish my
certificate and land a job in my current career field. My advisor at
Seattle Central College helped me the entire time, from career
counseling and class scheduling to writing resumes and pursuing work-
based learning options.
I also received help understanding and applying for financial aid
options, which made a huge difference.
Financial aid
Student debt is a critical issue in Washington State and across the
Nation. In 2013-14, 32,244 2-year college students borrowed an average
of $5,617 in student loans.\12\ Nearly half of the students in eligible
programs receive financial aid.\13\
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\12\ Washington State Student Achievement Council, 2013-14.
\13\ SBCTC, Academic Year Report, 2013-14.
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While tuition at a Washington State 2-year college seems like a
bargain at approximately $4,000 per year, it can pose significant
challenges for students who don't have extra financial resources to
cover college expenses. Students not only have to pay for tuition, but
required textbooks and materials to complete coursework.
State Need Grant
In addition to receiving a Federal Pell Grant, I also received the
Washington State Need Grant to help cover the cost of my college
education. For more than 40 years, the State Need Grant has been
providing financial aid to disadvantaged students. Eligible students
with a household income less than $58,500 (for a family of four) are
able to use the grant at 2- and 4-year higher education institutions as
well as many accredited private or independent colleges, universities,
and career schools in Washington State.
After the Great Recession, Washington, like many other States,
experienced significant budget constraints. With approximately 32,000
eligible students not receiving State Need Grants due to lack of
funds,\14\ cost continues to be a barrier for many students in
completing college and succeeding in today's job market.
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\14\ Washington State Student Achievement Council, 2013-14.
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recommendations
As part of my testimony, I have a few recommendations for the
committee to consider as discussions continue on national higher
education policy.
Remove cost barriers for students. With over $1 trillion
in loans,\15\ student debt is a growing national crisis. The Federal
Government is in a unique position to help students and higher
education institutions with this problem. Removing cost barriers makes
a big difference in access and affordability for nontraditional
students.
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\15\ Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, 2013.
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Instead of creating new loan programs that may burden low-income
students with more debt, consider increasing resources to grant
programs, like Pell, that are already a proven success. Without the
Pell Grant, I would have been unable to pursue college and obtain my
current management position with a leading Seattle employer.
I also recommend providing financial support for college advisors
to help students navigate the financial aid process and find
scholarships. It's not an easy process, particularly when there's no
one in your family who has been through it before.
Centralize educational options for prospective students. A
central Federal portal that contains all relevant college information
for prospective students could be helpful. However, some college
completion calculations paint an incomplete picture of community and
technical colleges. For example, as a nontraditional returning student,
I wouldn't have been counted in the U.S. Department of Education's
College Scorecard.
This type of portal can, however, provide better visibility for
programs like I-BEST. This will help students and high school advisors
make informed choices. I was fortunate to see a flyer at a YWCA, but
the programs deserve greater visibility and students need to know about
available opportunities.
Support college and career pathways. As I mentioned, a
clear career pathway and proactive advising model were critical for my
success as a student. I encourage continued support for these pathways
through legislation and funding to ensure all students have the
opportunity to plug into college and ultimately, a career at any point
in their lives.
For those without a high school diploma or credential, it is
critical these prospective students have access to Ability to Benefit
under the Pell Grant. This provides tuition assistance, allowing
students to afford college, obtain an industry-recognized certificate
or degree, and move into a living wage, high-demand job.
In closing, I would like to once again thank you for this
tremendous opportunity. The future of our country lies within higher
education and I appreciate your dedication to ensuring all Americans
can step on this path at any time in their lives. My journey has led me
from a difficult past into a much brighter future.
The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Mitchell.
We will now begin a series of 5-minute rounds of questions.
Ms. Lightfoot, Senator Bennet and I and others have
introduced the FAST Act, which would simplify student aid
forms. You referred to it.
Would you explain to the committee why it makes a
difference to provide students with their financial aid
eligibility information in their junior year in high school
rather than their senior year. What difference would that make
in their college search?
Ms. Lightfoot. Absolutely. Most families can file their
FAFSA's in January. Some colleges will get financial aid
packages----
The Chairman. Of their senior year.
Ms. Lightfoot. Of their senior year, absolutely. January of
the senior year, and they need the prior year taxes. When a
student fills out the FAFSA and their families fill out the
FAFSA in January, some colleges can get those packages back in
March, some in April, some in May. Some State schools do not
give students their financial aid award letters until June,
which does not give students enough time to make informed
decisions, especially if there is a financial gap where the
student may not have enough money to go to their first choice.
The Chairman. Where a student might be expected to begin
college in August.
Ms. Lightfoot. Absolutely.
In my written testimony, I talked about a student who
received a financial aid package and did not have enough money
to complete his first semester of college, and that student had
to drop out of school after his first semester and at the age
of 26 can no longer enroll in another school because he had
acquired debt from his first semester going to a particular
college. Had he had information the year before, he could have
spent that year making up the difference, working longer hours,
and using more strategies, applying for more scholarships to
fill in the financial aid gap. It does not give students enough
time to plan. A lot of our low-income, under-represented
students--families do not plan financially for their education,
and they rely on Federal funds and State funds to do that.
The Chairman. If I could go on to another question.
Ms. Lightfoot. Absolutely.
The Chairman. I have got a limited amount of time. That is
very helpful.
Mr. Schneider, you have been on both sides of it. You have
been in the Government collecting information, and you have
been out in the private sector trying to help States
disseminate that information to students to make the right
choice.
This is the 900-page document. If I understand this
correctly, this is what every institution has to disclose
because we require them to. Now, how do you get this
information into the hands of students in a useful way to
choose among the 6,000 institutions we have?
What you say in your testimony is while the Federal
Government can be a powerful actor in creating databases, it is
far from the best actor when it comes to disseminating the data
in a usable form. The long and contentious history of gainful
employment and the shorter but equally fraught history of the
current attempts to create a college rating system show the
dangers of Federal overreach. I believe the Federal Government
should help create high quality databases and then make the
data widely available. Many efforts will follow as States,
companies, other efforts experiment with different user
interfaces.
How much data should the Government collect? Is all this
needed? And second, who should try to put the data in the hands
of the students? You seem to think the Federal Government is
not particularly good at that part of the job.
Dr. Schneider. That is correct. The statute of limitations
on me apologizing for IPEDS has expired. When I was at NCES, I
spent a lot of time apologizing for it, but that is gone.
Yes. You have to remember, of course, that IPEDS has just
expanded over time. It fulfills many, many purposes.
The Chairman. Explain IPEDS.
Dr. Schneider. The Integrated Postsecondary Education Data
System.
The Chairman. That is this?
Dr. Schneider. That is that. That is a printed version of
that.
As you noted in the white paper you put out about consumer
information, much of the data collected in IPEDS is
congressionally mandated. At NCES, we tried very hard to reduce
some of the burden on institutions, but the fact of the matter
is that we could not say we are not collecting these data
because various laws said these data must be collected. A lot
of the data that is collected has been mandated by Congress for
a variety of purposes, not necessarily for consumer
information.
There was remarkable agreement among the witnesses about a
handful of measures, if we are really serious about consumer
information. There is a handful of measures that students need
to know, and I have listed the five questions that I thought
could structure the data that is required or that is needed for
students to understand what their choices are.
I believe that the Federal Government can, for example, do
a much better job in collecting the wage data and the labor
outcome data than any State or private institution can do. The
fact of the matter is that those data need to be disseminated
to other Federal agencies, to State governments, to
researchers, to companies so that we could all experiment with
different kinds of interfaces apps--different kinds of
applications. Websites that would help students make a much
better choice about where to go and what to study.
The Chairman. Thank you, Dr. Schneider.
Senator Murray.
Senator Murray. Thank you very much.
Ms. Mitchell, thank you. Truly inspirational story. I
really appreciate your sharing it.
I wanted to ask you when you walked into that YWCA in
Seattle and saw a poster for I-BEST, what attracted you to
that? What was it that made you say that is what I want to do?
Ms. Mitchell. There were two sentences that literally just
spoke to me. One was college-bound program, and clear pathway
to success. I was like what is that. I can actually get back to
school. This is a program where I can actually get back to
college and have a clear pathway to get where I want to go.
Senator Murray. You talked about going on to get your
bachelor's degree--to a bachelor's program at some point. What
factors are most important to you as you consider different
college options to do that?
Ms. Mitchell. The success rate of the colleges, the
graduation rate of the colleges is important to me, but also
the staff, the teachers, and how accessible the school is and
how much support the school gives the students. The support
services are the most important thing to me. That is what has
carried me through everything. There were times when I thought
I am never going to be able to do this, or I might not be able
to finish, or when I just needed someone to give me direction,
having that support changed everything. It is a game-changer.
When looking at universities, Smith and Amherst, for example, I
got to meet the recruiters and the people at those schools, and
so I got to learn that these people are really in your corner
and they motivated me as a student without even being in their
school, and that is what made me really just want to go there.
Senator Murray. Ms. Lightfoot, you are nodding. Is that
what you hear?
Ms. Lightfoot. Absolutely. The question that students have
is how do students like me do at this institution and as a
translator--and Ms. Santiago mentioned it. Students need
translators, and how do we buildup a team of translators where
students like Taleah can get the information and know that this
is a school that has a robust amount of support that can work
with students like her. It is the information that I can gather
as a practitioner on graduation rates and how well do Pell
Grant students do at the school where I can lead students to
schools like Smith or Amherst or Oglethorpe or the University
of the South where I can say as a practitioner this school does
a great job with students like you, with poor students, with
first-generation students. Collecting that information and in a
place where it is easy for me and other practitioners to access
is very helpful to lead Taleah to schools like a Smith and
Amherst or UTK, et cetera.
Senator Murray. Thank you.
Mr. Schneider, you recommended that the Federal Government
should do a better job of creating high quality data and then
making the data widely available to States and community
organizations that work with students. What kinds of vital
information are we missing today?
Dr. Schneider. I believe that, as I noted, the concern
about institution level data is wrong because so much happens
at the program level. We need things like graduation rates at
the program level. We need the economic outcomes, job placement
numbers, wages. Right now I work with seven States or I have
worked with seven States to track the students into the labor
force and track their earnings 1, 5, and as much as 10 years
afterwards, and this is all at the program level. There is a
wide range of outcomes at the program level. That institution
level data which, for example, the College Scorecard will pick
up is just not going to catch it.
Senator Murray. How do we collect that data?
Dr. Schneider. Well, this is where the Federal income tax
data is the most useful. I believe we should start with
matching FSA data to the income tax data, and ultimately I
believe that we should allow States to work with the IRS to
match their data. We have to have rigorous safeguards, privacy
safeguards in place, but we can do that. I believe that the
States have very detailed student level data, and that could be
merged with these outcomes data for information like job
placement, career growth, and earnings.
Senator Murray. Ms. Santiago, you recommended that we
disaggregate Federal data and higher education much like we do
under ESEA by the very characteristics that define what you
call post-traditional students. Do you think we have enough
information on student outcomes today?
Ms. Santiago. I do not believe we have sufficient
information. The challenge for me in sufficient information is
that the current measures we have do not capture those post-
traditional students. If you are a returning student or a
transfer student enrolled part-time at any point, you are not
in those graduation rates and it does not tell you an accurate
picture of their outcomes. I think that is a challenge in
figuring out how to inform and compel action for the students
we have today and in the future.
Senator Murray. How do we collect that?
Ms. Santiago. I think we need to try to create competent
cohorts that might be similar to graduation rates. That is not
first-time full-time. We know we have the data already to
create cohorts of part-time, first-time students, and we can
cut the existing data in different ways to get there. I do not
think there is any perfect way to do it, but we do need to make
sure we include part-time students. We have experimented,
including creating an FTE and looking at completion that way.
The challenge is people do not understand how you do that, but
we can do that with existing data. We have just not done it,
and I think we should start with what we currently have rather
than adding more and then making sure we are looking at it by
those characteristics, students who need remediation and
others. We have a lot of that data. We have to make better use
of it.
Senator Murray. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Murray.
Senator Cassidy.
Statement of Senator Cassidy
Senator Cassidy. Ms. Santiago, I really like what you just
said.
Let me toss it over to Dr. Schneider. It almost seemed like
you need a regression analysis. It is not just program
graduation rates. It is the characteristics of the student.
Now, the for-profits, I have toured some for-profits, they
make the point that their student population is quite different
than that of a young man or young woman who goes to a State
college, et cetera, et cetera. I think we have good testimony
at the end of something which is quite different.
Is it practical to have a regression analysis in which you
take the characteristics of these students and you say, listen,
you can self-select? We are not saying, listen, if you are this
ethnic group or this family background or this income level, we
predict your future. Rather, you click and you say at this
institution someone of the background I choose will have this
immediate, intermediate, long-term income, et cetera. Any
thoughts?
Dr. Schneider. I have done a lot of work on the issue of
risk-adjusted metrics, which is part of what your question is
about, and that is, students come with different
characteristics, and therefore we expect or empirically their
success rates are different--in different domains varies.
One problem is the regression analysis--which variables do
you put into this?
Senator Cassidy. I bet you if you took Census track age,
there would be two or three things that just leap out as
statistically significant. Ms. Santiago is nodding her head
yes. Feel free to weigh in. It seemed like you took two or
three things.
Dr. Schneider. There are two or three things that we
absolutely know have to be included, and after that, we start
getting into much more complicated issues.
I work with ``Money Magazine,'' ``Money's'' ranking of the
best colleges. We do value-added. We do the kinds of empirical
analysis that you are talking about. That is a private
magazine. If you do not like our ratings and you do not like
the variables we choose, do not read the magazine.
What I worry about is when the Federal Government gets
involved in the risk-adjusted metrics business, the models
become really much, much more important.
We also allow our readers to change the weights on some of
these things so then they care much more about certain of these
characteristics than others.
I take your point very seriously, and that is that we
should allow personalized computation of ROI, personalized
computation of how much it is going to cost. I have built
applications where students----
Senator Cassidy. I only have a couple minutes left.
Ms. Lightfoot, I really love what you are doing. Let me ask
because I have found that young people are often financially
illiterate. My wife borrowed money in medical school, went to
Australia, did not pay it off until after we married. If I
sound bitter, I am.
[Laughter.]
When you send a young person off to Smith or Oglethorpe--
those are very expensive schools. I am sitting here thinking
what is the ROI on that? You follow what I am saying? If they
went to Tennessee, Chattanooga, they probably would pay less. I
am asking. It almost seems like we would have to have a
spreadsheet where you would put in your financial aid and you
would put in what you are going to bring to the table, and then
you would put in your career path and then you would put out
the immediate kind of metrics that you are saying could vary.
When I graduate, I am either going to be an Occupy Wall Street
activist or I am going to earn six figures. If it sounds like I
have a child going to college, yes, I do.
Do you have that? It almost seems like you have to do a
financial literacy for these young folks who are taking off for
school. Otherwise, they will do exactly as you described one
person ending up at age 26 having exhausted their loaning
capacity with nothing but debt and no degree.
Ms. Lightfoot. Absolutely. My point to that is having the
translator. Because students do not go into college with that
type of financial literacy, they are relying on a trusted
adult, just as I relied on a trusted adult, to send me to a
college 20 years ago that cost $25,000. Again, my mother only
made $12,000. Susan Chipley would not have sent me to a college
that did not meet my need. I trusted her enough to not put me
in a situation where I would----
Senator Cassidy. That is a remarkable set of circumstances,
but sometimes there are charlatans as much as there are people
of good will. It seems like we need to have something, I hate
to say formalized because there is always going to be a bias,
but there still seems like there has to be some sort of
mechanism. A Good Housekeeping stamp of approval.
Ms. Lightfoot. Absolutely. How can the Federal Government
support more programs to buildup the team of translators so
that every public school student can have access to a trusted
and expert professional, college access professional, to lead
them on the right direction. A lot of private schools will have
counselors, a 30 to 1 ratio of counselor to student ratio, and
in public schools there are 400 students to one counselor.
Senator Cassidy. Just to say something that Dr. Schneider
describes where someone could log on and put in their
variables. Could that supplant these personnel? Because
personnel are very expensive, whereas the app could be
something that would be 99 cents on iTunes.
Ms. Lightfoot. If the variables were right--and I would
have to think about those a little bit more as to what
variables they would be--it is something that I will try as a
practitioner to see if it would lead me to some of the schools
that I know in my head that do a great job putting their arms
around students who are under-represented. I would have to just
think a little bit more about what those variables would be.
Senator Cassidy. It sounds like a good workshop.
I yield back. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Cassidy.
Senator Franken.
Statement of Senator Franken
Senator Franken. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think we all agree--I think there is total agreement
here--that we want to be able to get useful information into
the hands of prospective students in a timely fashion, at the
right time.
A number of you in your testimonies mentioned the
importance of net price calculators. Last year, I introduced a
bill with Senator Grassley of Iowa that would improve net price
calculators which in an early manner, it sounds like the way
students get this information is either through a counselor but
very often by going to a search engine, browsing, finding it,
and you get the schools. You are not getting it through the
Federal Government. You are getting it from the school.
In 2008, Congress required all colleges to post a net price
calculator on their website, but very often they are not easy
for students and families to find on those websites or to use.
My bill would have colleges and universities put the
calculators on the pages of their websites where prospective
students are likely to look, such as the financial aid or
tuition and fees page. I think the chairman said that the
``Washington Post'' said what am I looking at.
We want to have this net price calculator. This is so that
kids, before they even apply, are not ruling out schools where
they think they cannot pay for it, but my goodness, it turns
out that maybe they could.
We were talking about getting financial aid statements so
late that you do not know. Even before you apply, you can go to
a net cost calculator and put in your information and find out
what that is.
I am working to get this done in my bill, but in the
meantime, does anyone have any ideas how we can make sure these
colleges place their calculators on web pages that are easy for
students to find?
Dr. Schneider. May I just speak to that? Again, there are
about 200 campuses, colleges that at the current time refuse to
allow their net price calculators to be picked up by
aggregators like the College Advocates. Schools originally hid
their--they still do hide--their net price calculators deep in
the bowels of their websites. NCES publishes--and the College
Navigators--those links, but they should be prominently
displayed. Also, the failure of the schools or the blocking of
these net price calculators being picked up by aggregators is a
serious problem that I think needs to be dealt with. There are
over 200 schools at the current time that prevent that kind of
aggregation.
Senator Franken. OK. I think I am going to move on because
I want to ask about later in the process, once you have gotten
into the school, you get a financial award letter. I think we
are all saying this net price calculator is important, and it
is important that it be in a prominent place. OK, good.
Ms. Santiago, many students' families do not have a clear
picture of how much college is going to cost them. Some
schools' financial aid letters do not distinguish between loans
and grants. I have another bipartisan bill that would require
universities to use a uniform financial aid award letter so
that students and their families will know exactly how much
college will cost them.
When I first proposed this, I got emails from lots and lots
of people, including counselors, who said families cannot, the
kids cannot, I cannot make out the difference because some will
say subsidized Stafford loan. It will say that. Others will
have an F6302. I am not sure if they use that, but you get my
point.
How would a uniform award letter--most people when they
think of a loan, do not think so much that it's an award. It is
on an award letter. To make them distinguish, how would this
help to have a uniform letter so that you can know exactly what
you are getting?
Ms. Santiago. I think it would be invaluable in the choices
students make. We have found that letters just put a total
amount at the bottom, and too many families, especially for
low-income, first-generation, think that is the amount of money
they will not have to pay back, and that actually includes
loans and others. A uniform letter that clearly distinguishes
between what they have to pay back versus what they are able to
keep and it is free, that distinction is summarily important
not just to list it, but to summarize it and having two numbers
so that the families understand so when they do side-by-side
comparisons, they can choose.
Right now, there is no uniform letter, and we are having to
translate not just through languages but like 15 different
languages-plus, and I think that is not fair for students who
are trying to make the best fit decision for them. I think
uniform letters are absolutely critical.
Senator Franken. OK. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thanks, Senator Franken.
Senator Warren.
Statement of Senator Warren
Senator Warren. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We have been talking a lot about data, but I want to talk
about a different database than the kind we have been talking
about.
The Department of Education maintains databases that are
loaded with information on Federal student aid, on loans, on
scholarships. Researchers, policymakers, and students cannot
get answers to even the most basic questions. In a recent ``New
York Times'' column, one researcher asked some pretty basic
stuff. How many borrowers are delinquent on their loans? How
does delinquency differ by level of education or amount of
debt? Which colleges are doing a good job of graduating
students who can pay their debt and which are leaving students
under water? Pretty key stuff.
Dr. Schneider, does the Department of Education have data
to answer any of these questions?
Dr. Schneider. Absolutely.
Senator Warren. OK. They have the data.
As Commissioner of the National Center for Education
Statistics, was it your job, ``to disseminate full and complete
statistics on financial aid?''
Dr. Schneider. It was my hope to be able to do that.
Senator Warren. Was it supposedly your job to do that?
Dr. Schneider. No.
Senator Warren. You were not supposed to--I am looking at
the statute here.
Dr. Schneider. I am sorry. There is a difference between
what I hoped to do and what I was able to do and what I was
mandated to do.
Senator Warren. OK. Let us put it this way. Did you release
this data?
Dr. Schneider. Well, we released very preliminary data or
very aggregated data through IPEDS.
Senator Warren. Did you answer these questions?
Dr. Schneider. No. We could not answer them.
Senator Warren. OK. Now the question is why not.
Dr. Schneider. Because FSA is not designed to provide those
data to either the Federal Government, to other branches of the
Department of Education, to other agencies in the Federal
Government, or to anybody else. FSA is a big bank. The data
systems are designed for business operations, not for the
dissemination of----
Senator Warren. Let me ask this another way. Did the
Education Department make these data available to you so that
you could answer these questions?
Dr. Schneider. We negotiated several times with FSA to
share data with NCES. We offered to pay for data runs. We asked
them to provide us information about Pell Grants, about the
success rates of Pell Grants.
Senator Warren. Would they give you these data?
Dr. Schneider. I do not know if they would but they did
not.
Senator Warren. OK. I will take they did not. I have got
that as an answer.
As I understand it, Federal student aid is this group
within the Department of Education that is collecting these
valuable data, but it will not make those data public. They
hide it from the public, from policymakers, even from others at
the Department of Education and the National Center for
Education Statistics. This is nuts. The data are already
collected and the Education Department will not turn them
loose.
Last year, I introduced an amendment to the Education
Sciences Reform Act reauthorization bill to require the
Secretary of Education to protect student privacy but to make
these data available. I withdrew the amendment on the
understanding that we would address this issue in the Higher Ed
Reauthorization Act. And I hope that Chairman Alexander and
Ranking Member Murray will work with me to make sure that we
use the data we are collecting because we cannot fix student
aid programs if the Department of Education refuses to tell
Congress, to tell researchers, or to tell the public or even
the rest of the Department of Education what it is that it
knows. I just think this one is critical, Mr. Chairman, and I
hope that is what we will focus on.
The Chairman. Thanks, Senator Warren. I remember our
discussion about that last year, and I did say that and we will
work with you on that in the Higher Education Act.
Senator Warren. Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Murphy.
Statement of Senator Murphy
Senator Murphy. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Mitchell, your story is really extraordinary. I do not
want to put words in your mouth, but as we are seeking to
figure out what data, what information is important to
students, I assume that the reason that you were so committed
to your journey to get your degree was because you wanted a
higher quality of life, a better quality of life for yourself
when you graduated. Is that correct?
Ms. Mitchell. Absolutely.
Senator Murphy. Ms. Lightfoot and Ms. Santiago, when you
are talking to students whose main goal is that upon graduation
of college, that they have a better quality of life than had
they not gone to college or that they have a better quality of
life because they went to this particular college versus that
particular college, and that generally means that they are
going to be able to get the job that they want. They are going
to be able to make enough money to pay back their loans.
What is the data that you use in order to compare one
college against another in order to judge whether or not that
person is going to be able to get the job they want or to be
able to make the salary they want? What is the data that is
available to you to make that comparison for students?
Ms. Lightfoot. I will start.
My approach is about fit, what postsecondary opportunity is
the best fit for the student. If it is a 2-year college based
on the student's circumstances, based on the student's
personality, then we will look at those options.
Senator Murphy. Let us say I am just a student. I just want
to know. I want to know whether this college is going to get me
a certain job. I want to know what chances I have to make this
amount of money if I go to this school. Are you sort of saying
that there is no one place where you can go and get that
information for students today?
Ms. Lightfoot. Based on my professional journey and the
information that I am able to collect from colleagues, from
associations, I am able to match that information up. It kind
of happens when you have savvy professionals who are trained
like myself and other college access professionals to match
that information up. I am thinking about Pell Grant students
and the graduation rates for Pell Grant students. Or if I am
talking to a student who will be a Pell Grant recipient, I am
not going to send them to a school that does not do a great job
graduating low-income students. So that is a piece.
Senator Murphy. Listen, I think you are fantastic at your
job and there are other professionals that are fantastic at
their jobs. It is really easy for you to go figure out what the
student-to-teacher ratio is at a particular school. That is
data that is available.
Ms. Lightfoot. Absolutely.
Senator Murphy. It is not a problem to go find out what the
cost is of a particular school.
Ms. Lightfoot. You got it.
Senator Murphy. But, it is not easy to find out what the
average earnings of a graduate of a particular school is or
what their ability to get a job in their major is.
Mr. Schneider, I assume that is in part because in 2008 we
passed a law prohibiting the Federal Government from collecting
data on a student record basis that would allow us to track how
a student does after they graduate college.
Dr. Schneider. Yes. In part the ban on student level data
is essential to blocking this kind of movement forward. Yes,
that is true. Though as Senator Warren notes, the FSA already
has an incredible database that could be merged and matched
with other data.
The States that I work with actually use the State
unemployment insurance data, merging it back with the State's
student level data to track outcomes into the labor market and
wages going forward. Tennessee is actually one of----
Senator Murphy. Well, as you note in your testimony, that
has pretty significant limitations.
Dr. Schneider. Well, we believe it has significant
limitations. We do not have a basis to check because the IRS
has not shared its data with States despite the fact that we
have asked the IRS to match the data with all the privacy
concerns in place. We do not know what the bias is actually.
Senator Murphy. The colleges lobbied hard for this
prohibition on student records that track students after
colleges. The reason that was given was because of these
potential problems with data protection. You said in your
testimony you believe that a lot of those concerns can be
answered and have been answered in terms of the ability to
protect data.
Dr. Schneider. Absolutely. Sometimes this concern for
privacy is really a smoke screen to protect schools from the
truth actually.
Senator Murphy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Lightfoot. Can I make a comment? I mentioned this in my
testimony, but graduation rates, retention rates, percent of
financial aid met, and average indebtedness at graduation, year
1 to year 2 where retention is very important for me to help
guide a student on best fit.
Senator Murphy. My only point is that, of the five things
that you mentioned, Mr. Schneider, No. 5 to me, is the one that
we have the hardest time translating to students. How much am I
going to make? Am I going to get a job in the field that I am
studying? If we add anything to the data collection that we
require, that would seem to be the most useful.
Dr. Schneider. That should be at the program level, not at
the institution level.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Murphy.
Senator Whitehouse.
Statement of Senator Whitehouse
Senator Whitehouse. I think I am the last one at this
point. We are coming to the end of what has been a very
interesting hearing.
We have just come to the end in this committee of a very
successful process with regard to elementary and secondary
education, for which I commend both our Chairman and our
Ranking Member.
One of the principles that emerged from that process was
the notion of the dashboard in the context of what the signals
are that a particular school may be failing or may be failing
certain of its students. It strikes me that the dashboard
concept--when you are dealing with a lot of information of
trying to extract from that information a simple,
comprehensible--you can look at it on one screen measure, which
would then allow you, if you see something that concerns you,
to look back into the data more deeply would be a sensible
model to have in mind as we approach this question. Do you
agree with that thought or disagree with that thought? Anyone.
Ms. Santiago. I agree with that. In my testimony, I
suggested in this era of having Netflix and Amazon, and you can
start with a preference and go deeper and deeper as you start
the process, that we have the ability to create an interface
that will do that.
Senator Whitehouse. It is not so much the question that
there is a lot of data and there is a lot of information. That
is not the problem. The problem is that we do not have that
simple series of interfaces that gives you the depth of
information that you need at the level that you want.
Ms. Santiago. It allows you to filter, and a dashboard can
give you the first step. But, as any choice you make, we need
to go deeper and deeper to make sure it is a fit. The way you
do that is to go from a dashboard into more challenged
information that you need.
Senator Whitehouse. You may not be very interested in going
deep into your engine and pulling the oil at the end of the
stick and finding out whether it is good or full or not, but
when that little red light comes on, suddenly it gets
interesting to do that and you are supposed to. It is the
dashboard that facilitates that as well. Correct?
Ms. Santiago. Yes.
Senator Whitehouse. Does anybody disagree with that? OK.
Let me ask a second question, which is that it is a tale as
old as time, but where the profit motive goes, fraud and
predatory behavior can often follow. It does appear from a
considerable number of stories that we have seen that the
profit motive's incursion into higher education has been
followed by fraud and predatory behavior, particularly a for-
profit model that seeks very intensively to recruit students,
seeks very intensively to milk them of their funds,
particularly their grant and loan funds. As to the actual
quality of education that is then produced or as to the actual
job placement that should follow, it appears from the stories
that we have seen that in many cases, the business model
appears complete once the check has been cashed, and the rest
is sort of caveat emptor.
That seems to be a new concern that has emerged in this
area. You might have had schools before that did not do a very
good job, but that was often because they just did not know how
to do any better. The predatory nature of some of what we have
read about perhaps might be something that we should be looking
at or that might create new risks as we try to make sure that
students have the right kind of information.
Do any of you have any thoughts on that concern? Dr.
Schneider?
Dr. Schneider. I believe that the kinds of measures that we
are talking about should be applied to every school regardless
of its status, whether or not it is for-profit, not-for-profit,
public. Students are going to choose schools and they need much
better information. They do not even know if a school is
proprietary or not-for-profit or whatever. In some ways it is
irrelevant. What they really need to know is, as I said, am I
going to get in, am I going to get out, how long is it going to
take, how much will it cost, and how much will I earn. We need
to measure those things, report those for every school, for
every program regardless of who is offering them.
Senator Whitehouse. Ms. Santiago.
Ms. Santiago. I do think the added point here to what you
shared is the predatory part. We do find many low-income,
first-generation students who they have actively reached out to
engage. I do think there is an added responsibility to make
sure that they are getting good information, they are aware of
the potential predatory nature of what is out there. Because
they are trying to reach the American dream, they think if it
comes to them, that they are wanted, they work around their
schedule, help them get aid and a job, only to find out that
that was a bill of goods that they did not come through on. I
think we have a responsibility to our young people and those
who are not so young to make sure that we protect them from
that.
Senator Whitehouse. Certainly the TV ads show nothing but
sunshine and success.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse.
Senator Scott.
Statement of Senator Scott
Senator Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I wanted to ask Dr. Schneider a couple questions. I
appreciated your five important questions of getting in,
getting out, the timeline, how much will it cost, and how much
will you earn.
I think one of the important parts of breaking the
bachelor's addiction is having the information about success.
In South Carolina, we have a great need for middle skills. I
think what you were talking about really leads in that
direction in the conversation. I would love to hear your input
and your perspective on our ability to fill the pipeline with
students who understand and appreciate the necessity of more
than a high school diploma but perhaps you can make a very good
income without a college education, without the 4-year
baccalaureate degree.
Dr. Schneider. This is one of my missions in life right
now, and that is to try to alert students to the value of
technical degrees that are granted most often by community
colleges. If we go to the detailed data that I present in many
States, not South Carolina by the way, but in Tennessee, Texas,
Colorado, or Minnesota, it is a consistent pattern that
students with technical degrees can fit into the middle class.
If you know how to fix things, if you know how to fix people
and you have a technical degree or certificate, an associate of
applied science or a certificate in those kinds of technical
degrees, you can be in the middle class and you could earn more
than bachelor degree students.
Senator Scott. Absolutely. We need to work on getting that
information more available throughout my great State of South
Carolina.
That really does bring me to another question for Ms.
Lightfoot. Listening to your story of rising out of poverty
through the power of education reminds me in some way of my
story of growing up in a single-parent household and through
the power of education, rising out of poverty as well.
I would have suggested to you, had I known you then, that
you could have come to the University of South Carolina,
Charleston Southern, Clemson University, Presbyterian College.
There are lots of great choices. We will have that discussion
at another time. God bless the education anyway.
I do think that there is an opportunity--and I would love
to engage you in this conversation about how we help our
students make better decisions from a cost perspective,
understanding and appreciating perhaps the opportunity of
technical schools or 2-year schools, coupled with a Pell Grant
to really reduce the burden long-term, which actually improves
the return on the investment long-term as well.
Ms. Lightfoot. Absolutely. You all will hear me scream and
shout how important it is to have that college access
professional--the trained professional--to lead students in a
path to learning about what those middle skills are. When
students hear the word ``college,'' they automatically think of
a 4-year degree, but where are they getting the messaging about
a high-quality credential? I think the language needs to change
around that so students can find their place in the
apprenticeship program, in the technical program in the 4-year
school, in the State school, and the private sector as well. I
really think it is about the language and the message around
college and where that student fits in to be led to some of the
phenomenal opportunities there are at lower-cost institutions.
Again, just because it is a better cost-effective value
does not mean that it is going to be a good fit for the
student. That student needs to be led, whether it is assessing
their basic skills values, their values, their career interest
with their skills matching them up to the best fit
postsecondary opportunity.
Senator Scott. I was referring back to part of your written
testimony and you alluded to it in your oral presentation that
the student who was unable to finish their education because of
the financial hurdles during the first semester. With good
information, it is definitely available, but having that good
information accessible to the student at the right time, not
when you are graduating from high school, but perhaps during
their junior year, as you and Senator Alexander spoke about, I
think would be very important.
Ms. Lightfoot. I know. I think that would be life-changing
using prior prior-year asset information and encouraging
colleges to get that information to the students earlier so the
students will have time to fill the gap and accumulate the
funds to make college affordable.
Senator Scott. I would just make my last point, not really
ask a question, though I did want to talk to Ms. Santiago about
being bilingual or trilingual with the data being the third
part of that. We will have to have that conversation another
time.
I do think it is important that while we are pretty decent
at gathering information perhaps as a Federal Government, I am
not sure that we are in the right place to start with the
dissemination of the information for the average student and
the average place because according to most of the studies that
I have read, most of the statistics that I have digested, we
may gather the information well, but it does not seem like the
average student, particularly adult students, are looking to
the Federal Government to figure out how to make choices.
I reached out to a fantastic high school senior from South
Carolina who has made the decision, much like yourself, not to
go to school in South Carolina, which I do not understand that
decision. He had a great teacher who helped him understand and
appreciate the options around the Nation that did not come from
the information. It came from a relationship. A part of the
conversation I think we need--at least a part of my thought
process is I think I would like to have invested in the
conversation or woven into the conversation is the importance
of relationships because most students find their best sources
not through public information, but perhaps information that is
available publicly, but you have to have some conduit, some
mediator in the middle of that. It seems to be teachers and
parents and making sure that those folks have access to the
information is incredibly important as well.
Ms. Lightfoot. That is music to my ears.
Senator Scott. Yes, ma'am. You do not want to hear me sing
it. That is for sure.
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Scott.
Senator Murray.
Senator Murray. Yes. I just had one other area I wanted to
ask Dr. Schneider about. Your institution conducts research to
develop tools to improve and provide assistance regarding
school crime and safety. According to that research, the number
of forcible sex crimes reported is up 52 percent in the past
decade. Half of those crimes in your data took place in
residence halls at 4-year institutions.
How can the Federal Government use that data to help
improve college safety and climate?
Dr. Schneider. The way I think about any of these kinds of
indicators--there are two fundamentally different ways of
thinking about it.
On the first hand, there is consumer information, and that
is getting the information out, understandable, usable, and
used. We have an obligation to put those data out into the
world and then let the consumers change their behavior, their
choices based on that information.
The second is regulatory. That is your business not my
business. I do not know how you regulate on that kind of
information, but I do believe that the consumer information
part--we need to make any kind of data about safety, any kind
of data about student outcomes, any of those kinds of data--we
need to choose the data that is the most important to students
and make it easily understood and easily accessible. Data that
is hidden in data warehouses is not useful.
Senator Murray. For a student or their family who is trying
to decide a college option, how should they evaluate that data
and the national trend?
Dr. Schneider. Well, I think the problem is--and someone
mentioned this earlier--everybody thinks that they are the
exception not the rule. I do believe that these kinds of data
need to be made available to students.
I must admit that I am totally in support of shaming people
and shaming institutions. I do not have a problem with marking
things red, yellow, green. You get a red sticker, you are
really off the chart on this measurement in a bad way. I think
shame is a powerful motivator.
Senator Murray. Right now, that is not out there and
available.
Dr. Schneider. No. I agree. We need to make that more
widely available.
Senator Murray. Thank you.
The Chairman. I just have a couple more questions.
Ms. Lightfoot, Tennessee has a new program called Tennessee
Promise. That means community college tuition is free to all
qualified high school graduates or technical institutions.
There are approximately 66,000 high school seniors in the State
of Tennessee. Of that number, 44,000, or 68 percent, completed
a FAFSA application, a student aid form, through April 24. That
is a big increase. Last year it was 55 percent instead of 68
percent, a 23 percent increase.
In my conversations with Tennesseans--this is what I have
heard, and you are in the midst of this. Tell me if I am right
or wrong about this. The Governor, in order to promote
Tennessee Promise, recruited a number of volunteer mentors to
help with the students who have to fill out these 108 questions
that are on the--I raise my hand because I hold that thing up a
lot--108 questions. The mentors tell me that they are spending
most of their time not advising the students about their lives,
the amount of loans available, or where to go to school, but
helping them fill out this form.
You talked a lot about translators and how valuable it is
to have a translator to take all this information on community
colleges and make it useful to do what Dr. Schneider said he
hopes more people will do. If we are successful in simplifying
the FAFSA from 108 questions to 2 or 5 or 10 or 12 or 15
questions, would that save time of college employees such as
yourself or high school counselors who could spend their time
serving as translators for where a student might go to school
rather than filling out a form filled with unnecessary
questions?
Ms. Lightfoot. Absolutely. Definitely a simplified form of
the FAFSA would ease a lot of burdens on students and families,
even those who do not choose to go to a 2-year college. A more
robust training around the mentorship program I think would be
extremely helpful as well.
The Chairman. Does UTC and the community college have
employees who spend a lot of time helping students fill out
these forms?
Ms. Lightfoot. A lifetime, no, but definitely a couple of
days and waiting for students to get their taxes back and
explaining what it means. I think a lot of time, once that
professional is there to help the student, it is interpreting
what the FAFSA means and what the FAFSA will get them that
takes even more time than completing that particular form.
The Chairman. As you stated, in Knoxville, they told me
they hired two people to help students fill out the FAFSA. Why
would it not be better to hire two people to serve as
translators to help them figure out what school to attend?
Ms. Lightfoot. I think increasing the capacity of every
school, every college, 4-year, 2-year college to make financial
aid more accessible and easily understandable would be a key
and not just for 2-year colleges and students who are going to
the Tennessee Promise. So absolutely, increasing the capacity
of these colleges in their financial aid departments and their
student advising departments because at the end of the day it
is about student completion as well, and if they can whiz
through the FAFSA and get that out of the way and understand
what the FAFSA means and what the FAFSA will get them in terms
of financial aid, scholarships, grant dollars, it will make a
lot of lives a lot better.
The Chairman. My last question. Dr. Schneider, your
testimony reflects my bias or my understanding, and I think it
might be not so different than what I heard from Senators
today, which is that the Federal Government does a good job of
collecting data but is probably not the best entity to put it
into a form that is most useful to students.
Senator Durbin was telling me yesterday about how the FBI's
computer system was so bad that the photographs of the 9/11
conspirators had to be hand-carried and mailed because they
could not be sent on their computer system. They then wasted
$800 million trying to fix it.
The Obamacare website got a lot of attention.
Senator Murray and I are working on what to do about the
electronic medical records. The Government just does not seem
to be able to do that kind of thing very well.
On the other hand, some universities do a good job. The
University of Texas president came by to see me, and he was
talking about just what you talked about, about anybody who
wants to go there can go onto a website, select the program--I
think you may have had something to do with creating that--but
select the program and they tell them about the program, tell
them how much it would cost to go to that program, and then
when they got out, what the job placement was for that. Now,
that would seem to be ideal.
How do we, in a practical matter, as legislators take this
information about community colleges and cut it down to size so
that we do not waste anybody's time collecting information from
almost 2,000 public and private community colleges or technical
institutes? How do we encourage the dissemination of it in
useful ways? If we try to do it ourselves, we will end up like
the electronic medical records or the Obamacare website or the
FBI computer system. How do we encourage that? Our temptation
often is, well, here is a problem, we will fix it, and we do
not fix that kind of thing very well. How do we cut this down
to size? Then how do we enable others to take this information
and make it useful?
Dr. Schneider. Clearly that is a congressional task because
so much of the data that is collected has been mandated by
Congress.
My suggestion would be to work closely with NCES which
tracks the usage of IPEDS data, just find out what is not being
used, and then we will need congressional action to eliminate
it. Everything in IPEDS had a reason at one time, and much of
it has no reason or the burden of collecting these data are in
excess of the benefit. I think every decision we make about
data has to be a benefit-cost analysis about it. My suggestion
would be working closely with NCES to track the usage of these
things and just start eliminating many of these surveys that
have accumulated over time.
In my written testimony, I suggested some of the kinds of
data that could be used to track the wage outcomes much more
effectively than I am doing at the current time, that my State
partners are doing at the current time, including the State of
Tennessee using UI data, the unemployment insurance wage data.
I have worked with the State of Tennessee asking the IRS to
provide the match data, and we thought we had an agreement and
that agreement disappeared. The UT system, the State of Texas
Higher Education Coordinating Board, other States have been
asking for the merged wage data so that we could get much more
accurate tracking of students into and through the labor
market. At the current time, the IRS is saying that they do not
have the statutory authority to do it, which I disagree by the
way.
In terms of dissemination--I think everybody I know is
waiting for the merged FSA-IRS institution level data that is
supposedly going to come out sometime this summer. What I am
going to do with my work with ``Money Magazine'' is take that
data and plug it into the work we are doing at the current
time. I think we just need to make sure those data are put out
in the public domain and let everybody go at it.
The Chairman. Thank you, Dr. Schneider.
Let me invite Dr. Schneider, Ms. Santiago, Ms. Lightfoot,
and Ms. Mitchell if things occur to you today or if you want to
emphasize something that you had in your testimony or that you
think about when you go home, particularly if there are
specific suggestions of things we ought to do or the way we
ought to do it, we would welcome that. We would invite you to
send that to us. You are the experts. We are not. We are going
to be passing a law in the next few months that will affect
things for the next several years. If a specific change needs
to be made, please tell us, and we will do our best to include
it.
If Senators have additional questions, they will ask them.
The hearing record will remain open for 10 days to submit
additional comments and any questions for the record Senators
have.
We plan to hold the next hearing of this committee on
reauthorizing the Higher Education Act on Wednesday, May 20.
It has been a very useful hearing. I thank the witnesses.
Ms. Mitchell, thank you for coming all the way from Seattle.
That is a long way to come. Senator Murray does it every
weekend.
Ms. Mitchell. Thank you for having me.
The Chairman. I know it can be done, but we are glad you
came.
Ms. Lightfoot, it is good to see a Tennessean.
Ms. Santiago, thank you.
Dr. Schneider, thank you.
The hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:38 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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