[Senate Hearing 114-917]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 114-917

                      S. 2102, THE STANDARD MERGER
                    AND ACQUISITION REVIEWS THROUGH
                        EQUAL RULES ACT OF 2015

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON ANTITRUST,
                         COMPETITION POLICY AND
                            CONSUMER RIGHTS

                                 OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                            OCTOBER 7, 2015

                               __________

                           Serial No. J-114-33

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
         
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                                 __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                          
                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                  CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa, Chairman
ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah                 PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont, Ranking 
JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama                   Member
LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California
JOHN CORNYN, Texas                   CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York
MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah                 RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
TED CRUZ, Texas                      SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona                  AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
DAVID VITTER, Louisiana              AL FRANKEN, Minnesota
DAVID PERDUE, Georgia                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut

            Kolan L. Davis, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
      Kristine Lucius, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director

        .........................................................

                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON ANTITRUST, COMPETITION
                       POLICY AND CONSUMER RIGHTS

                     MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah, Chairman
DAVID PERDUE, Georgia                AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota, Ranking 
THOM TILLIS, North Carolina              Member
CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa            CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah                 AL FRANKEN, Minnesota
                                     RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut

             William Levi, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
     Elizabeth Farrar, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page

Lee, Hon. Michael S..............................................     1
Leahy, Hon. Patrick J.
    Prepared statement...........................................    87

                               WITNESSES

Clanton, David A.................................................    18
    Prepared statement...........................................    32
    Responses to written questions...............................    88

Garza, Deborah...................................................    16
    Prepared statement...........................................    40
    Responses to written questions...............................    94

Jacobson, Jonathan M.............................................    21
    Prepared statement...........................................    51
    Responses to written questions...............................   102

Lipsky, Abbott B., Jr............................................    20
    Prepared statement...........................................    62
    Responses to written questions...............................   104

Ramirez, Edith...................................................     2
    Prepared statement...........................................    72
    Responses to written questions...............................   111

                                APPENDIX

Items submitted for the record...................................    31

 
                      S. 2102, THE STANDARD MERGER
                    AND ACQUISITION REVIEWS THROUGH
                        EQUAL RULES ACT OF 2015

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 7, 2015

                              United States Senate,
                     Subcommittee on Antitrust, Competition
                               Policy, and Consumer Rights,
                                Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 a.m., in 
Room 226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Michael S. Lee, 
Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Lee [presiding], Tillis, Hatch, 
Klobuchar, and Blumenthal.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MICHAEL S. LEE,

             A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF UTAH

    Chairman Lee. Welcome. Senator Klobuchar, the Ranking 
Democrat, has been held up in another meeting. She may be 
joining us in a little while, but we are going to go ahead and 
proceed without her in the meantime.
    Today's hearing focuses on the Standard Merger and 
Acquisition Reviews through Equal Rules Act, or the SMARTER 
Act. The SMARTER Act contains a series of important reforms 
that are designed to address existing disparities in the 
standards applied to and processes used by the two antitrust 
enforcement agencies--the Department of Justice and the Federal 
Trade Commission--when they seek to prevent the consummation of 
a proposed transaction.
    These disparities were examined by the bipartisan Antitrust 
Modernization Commission, which was formed pursuant to the 
Antitrust Modernization Act and charged with conducting 
comprehensive examination of the antitrust laws and existing 
enforcement practices.
    In the Commission's view, ``Parties to a proposed merger 
should receive comparable treatment and face similar burdens 
regardless of whether the FTC or DOJ reviews their merger. A 
divergence undermines the public's trust that the antitrust 
agencies will review transactions efficiently and fairly. More 
importantly, it creates the impression that the ultimate 
decision as to whether a merger may proceed depends in 
substantial part on which agencies--agency reviews the 
transaction.''
    Accordingly, the Commission recommended and the SMARTER Act 
implements two principal reforms. The first ensures that, 
regardless of which agency reviews a proposed transaction, the 
standard by which a court grants a preliminary injunction is 
the same. The second requires the Federal Trade Commission to 
go to court, just like the Department of Justice, when it seeks 
an injunction of a proposed transaction, rather than using its 
internal administrative process to review the merits.
    These reforms are necessary to ensure that the antitrust 
laws are applied in a manner that is consistent and fair to all 
parties. I look forward to our discussion.
    We will proceed now with our first witness. Chairwoman 
Ramirez, will you please stand and be sworn? Do you affirm that 
the testimony you are about to give before the Committee will 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. I do.
    [Witness is sworn in.]
    Chairman Lee. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Edith Ramirez was sworn in as Commissioner of 
the Federal Trade Commission in April 2010 and became 
Chairwoman of the FTC in March 2013. At the FTC Chairwoman 
Ramirez has focused on promoting competition and innovation in 
the technology and health care sectors, protecting consumers 
from deceptive and unfair practices, and safeguarding consumer 
privacy.
    Before joining the FTC, Chairwoman Ramirez was a partner in 
the Los Angeles office of Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan, 
where she litigated complex business disputes, including 
intellectual property, antitrust, unfair competition, and 
advertising matters. She is a graduate of Harvard Law School, 
where she was an editor of the Harvard Law Review, and also a 
graduate of Harvard College.
    Chairwoman Ramirez, thank you for joining us, and we look 
forward to your testimony.

          STATEMENT OF HON. EDITH RAMIREZ, CHAIRWOMAN,

            FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION, WASHINGTON, DC

    Chairwoman Ramirez. Thank you, Chairman Lee and Members of 
the Subcommittee, for inviting me to testify. I appreciate the 
opportunity to discuss the Federal Trade Commission's efforts 
to promote competition, the value of the Commission's merger 
enforcement process, and my concerns with the proposed 
legislation.
    In my view, the bill is unnecessary and would remove 
authority that the Commission has used successfully for over 
100 years to promote competition and advance consumer welfare. 
We all know, competition is the core of our economy. Robust 
competition leads to lower prices, higher-quality goods, and 
innovation. The FTC seeks to promote competition through a 
careful and thorough fact-intensive approach to law 
enforcement.
    One of the Commission's most important responsibilities is 
preventing mergers that may substantially lessen competition in 
violation of Section 7 of the Clayton Act. Although most 
mergers do not raise competitive concerns, we seek to identify 
and, where necessary, challenge anticompetitive transactions. 
Those efforts have preserved competition in vital sectors of 
the economy, including health care, technology, consumer goods 
and services, and energy, among others.
    Between FY 2010 and 2014, the FTC challenged approximately 
21 mergers per year. Most of those proceeded with negotiated 
divestitures, but in one or two cases each year, the Commission 
filed suit in Federal court to block the merger pending an 
administrative trial. These numbers are similar to those of the 
Department of Justice during the same time period.
    The FTC's administrative process has played an important 
role in challenging harmful mergers and advancing consumers' 
interests. As Congress intended, the Commission's 
administrative role has proven especially valuable for 
developing antitrust law in complex cases where the FTC has 
been able to apply its competition expertise.
    The Commission's efforts to prevent anticompetitive 
consolidation among health care providers is an important 
example. After losing a number of hospital merger cases, the 
FTC used its information gathering and research capabilities to 
improve its approach to litigating hospital cases. The 
Commission's 2007 administrative decision in the Evanston case 
laid the groundwork for a string of successful FTC challenges 
against other anticompetitive hospital mergers and has likely 
deterred still more that similarly threatened higher prices and 
lower-quality care.
    The Commission has brought its expertise to bear through 
the administrative process in other merger cases as well as in 
non-merger matters involving significant areas of antitrust 
law. These include pay-for-delay settlements between branded 
and generic pharmaceutical companies and the scope of the State 
action doctrine.
    Importantly, FTC administrative decisions are subject to 
judicial review, and courts have affirmed Commission 
administrative decisions at a very high rate. This includes 
wins in 10 out of 13 Commission administrative competition 
decisions over the last two decades. This number rises to a 11 
once we factor in that the Commission's 2003 ruling in 
Schering-Plough, which was reversed by the Eleventh Circuit, 
was ultimately vindicated by the Supreme Court's 2013 decision 
in the Actavis case.
    I believe the proposed legislation risks undermining the 
Commission's beneficial administrative role in merger 
enforcement. Although the FTC's process for challenging mergers 
includes an administrative hearing, there is no evidence that 
the Commission's procedures prejudice the parties involved. In 
2009, for instance, the FTC modified its rules to streamline 
the administrative process in response to concerns the process 
was too long. This included expediting the pretrial hearing and 
appeal phases as well as imposing tight deadlines for the 
Commission to rule on the merits of a case. As a result, the 
length of FTC administrative litigation is comparable to that 
in federal court.
    Additionally, although the preliminary injunction standard 
in the FTC Act is worded differently than the one that applies 
to the Department of Justice, in my view there is no practical 
difference between what each agency must show to obtain a 
preliminary injunction. Both agencies must make a robust 
evidentiary and legal showing that a transaction is likely to 
substantially lessen competition.
    In the Commission's two most recent PI actions--one a win 
and another a loss--both courts made clear that they were 
assessing the FTC's likelihood of success on the merits as well 
as balancing the equities, just as occurs in a DOJ case.
    Furthermore, this past March, the Commission reaffirmed its 
policy that when a Federal court denies a request for 
preliminary injunction, it will carefully consider whether to 
press forward with administrative litigation. Notably, over the 
last 20 years, the Commission has not proceeded 
administratively following a loss at the preliminary injunction 
stage. In short, there is no evidence that the FTC's 
administrative process prejudices parties. In my view the 
bill's proposed modifications to the Commission's adjudicative 
authority are unnecessary and unwarranted.
    Indeed, by eliminating the ability of the FTC to use its 
administrative process in certain merger cases, the proposed 
legislation would alter a fundamental feature of the FTC's 
institutional design, one that Congress very deliberately 
granted the agency more than 100 years ago. Such a change risks 
eroding the FTC's effectiveness in ensuring a competitive 
marketplace to the detriment of consumers. For these reasons, I 
have serious concerns about the bill.
    Thank you, and I am happy to respond to any questions you 
may have.
    [The prepared statement of Chairwoman Ramirez appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chairman Lee. Thank you very much, Chairwoman Ramirez.
    The Department of Justice's approach to blocking a merger 
is pretty straightforward. The Department of Justice seeks a 
preliminary injunction in Federal district court, and it then 
agrees with the parties to the transaction to combine these 
proceedings with respect to both the preliminary injunction and 
a permanent injunction.
    The parties then litigate before a Federal District Judge, 
the same Federal District Judge, both the merits of the case 
and the preliminary injunction. This is one proceeding in front 
of one judge.
    By contrast, the FTC's practice is to seek only a 
preliminary injunction in Federal court, and if the FTC first 
prevails in Federal court on its motion for a preliminary 
injunction, any trial on whether the transaction would be 
unwound would occur not in front of the same district judge 
that handled the PI, but in an entirely separate proceeding and 
at a later date.
    Accordingly, the parties that end up before the FTC are, in 
effect, forced to litigate twice--the preliminary injunction in 
Federal court and then the merits in the FTC's administrative 
process. All this occurs simply because of the fact that the 
agency that is reviewing the transaction is the FTC rather than 
the Department of Justice.
    Help me understand, Chairwoman Ramirez, is there a good 
reason for subjecting certain parties or certain industries to 
one process and other parties to another more onerous process? 
In other words, is there anything unique about the jurisdiction 
of the FTC and the types of industries or companies that are 
subject to the FTC's jurisdiction that makes your process 
uniquely suited to those types of transactions?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. This was a decision that Congress made 
when it created the Federal Trade Commission back in 1914. It 
very deliberately authorized the FTC to have an administrative 
process. It wanted to have an expert bipartisan body that would 
have the ability to exercise its competition expertise in this 
arena. That was a very deliberate decision made by Congress.
    Let me also say that, first of all, when the Department of 
Justice elects to combine its preliminary injunction phase 
along with the ultimate merits of the case, that is a decision 
that is made by the Department of Justice and the parties. In 
litigation, typically one goes through a preliminary injunction 
phase and then proceeds to ultimately litigate on the merits. 
That is just a choice that is made during the course of 
litigation by DOJ and the parties.
    I believe that the process at the FTC, while certainly 
different and including an administrative process, is both 
fair, works quite well, and works to the advantage of 
consumers. My concern with eliminating this authority is that 
it will--it risks undermining the effectiveness of the FTC, 
which has played a very important and beneficial role in 
preserving competition.
    Chairman Lee. You have got the authority to do that. I 
mean, the FTC seeks permanent injunctions in many other 
contexts, including some consummated mergers. It does not lack 
the authority to do so. It does not lack the authority to seek 
a permanent injunction. Why doesn't the FTC simply consolidate 
the PI with the permanent injunction proceedings in the same 
manner that DOJ does?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Again, the--this is part of the Federal 
Trade Commission's DNA. We were designed to have this 
administrative function, and that is an authority that I think 
the agency ought to use. It uses it I think quite ably as 
evidenced by the track record that we have.
    I believe that the procedures, again, while different, are 
comparable and fair. I do not believe that the processes, the 
differing processes result in any different outcome for 
parties. They are different, but in my mind, they are fair, 
they work well, and I think altering that authority risks 
eroding a very important component of why it was that the FTC 
was created by Congress.
    Chairman Lee. Sure. I understand that. I understand this 
has been in place for over a century and that Congress made a 
choice when it gave the FTC this authority. Of course, it is 
our job as a Congress to review these things from time to time 
and to figure out whether it still makes sense. I am not sure 
that there--I am not aware of any indication that Congress at 
the time was contemplating this particular dynamic, this 
particular disparity that we have now seen develop in this area 
of the law. We will follow up more on that in a minute, but my 
time has expired. We will go now to Senator Klobuchar.
    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I 
apologize for being late. I had a Steering Committee meeting, 
and it went over a little bit. I know we like to start these 
things on time. I welcome the Chairwoman. Chairwoman Ramirez, 
thank you so much for being here, and congratulations. She won 
a consumer award last night. I happened to be there, so 
congratulations for that.
    Just to summarize, I think two of the arguments, while this 
is modest legislation, I think proposed for good reasons, from 
one side, in terms of the costs of doing this just to summarize 
because it is a complex subject, I think the first would be 
that just losing the benefits of the FTC applying its expertise 
in administrative litigation, in rare cases a court may deny a 
preliminary injunction because economic learning and research 
may develop faster than the legal doctrine. I suppose the 
argument would be that the FTC would eliminate--would not be 
allowed to pursue this possibility of administrative litigation 
or using its expertise; the second argument being sort of the 
risk of unintended consequences, that by passing this change, 
would we raise the standard for obtaining a preliminary 
injunction for both agencies, or despite that stated attempt, 
the courts apply the SMARTER Act provisions to unconsummated 
mergers or other conduct. Would that be fair to summarize the 
issues that you raise?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. That is a fair summary, yes. Thank you.
    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Just a question about whether 
eliminating this ability to use administrative litigation in 
challenging these unconsummated mergers. The argument would be 
that it would undermine the antitrust enforcement and, then 
thus, harm consumers. Is that right?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Yes.
    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Some have said that the SMARTER 
Act represents modest changes to merger enforcement, sort of 
codifying some of the current project. Help me understand why 
the agency believes the SMARTER Act would undermine the ability 
to promote competition and protect consumers.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Let me back up a bit and also just say 
that--as I think is evidenced by both my oral testimony here 
this morning as well as the written testimony that we 
submitted, this is authority that we use in limited 
circumstances.
    Senator Klobuchar. Right.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. In my view, the process does work well 
when it is used, but the bill risks, again, eroding our ability 
to use authority that Congress gave us and that I believe we 
have used quite ably over the course of our history, 
including----
    Senator Klobuchar. You have a right to be proud of that 
work, so thank you.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. In addition to that, I also do not 
believe that there is any evidence that parties are prejudiced 
by the fact that our process includes an administrative 
component to it. If you look at the data and you look at how 
many cases are litigated as compared to the Department of 
Justice, if you look at how many cases are settled or abandoned 
when before the FTC as compared to the Department of Justice, I 
think you see that the numbers are quite comparable. In my 
mind, that suggests that the FTC exercises no greater leverage 
over parties. Otherwise, I think you would see a disparity in 
those numbers. In my mind, there is no evidence that this type 
of a change is necessary or warranted.
    I also am concerned about unintended consequences. Whenever 
you have a change, a major institutional change of this nature, 
I believe that you risk creating uncertainty. We can anticipate 
what some of those questions might be, but then, in addition, 
there are also ones that sitting here today I probably will not 
be able to anticipate, but that will play out when parties 
inevitably end up litigating over what these changes signify.
    Senator Klobuchar. Do you think there could be a situation 
in the future where the case law has not kept up with economic 
thinking or is too restrictive and the FTC actually brings a 
preliminary injunction to protect consumers from a transaction?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. I do. I think that we, as an agency, 
have used our decisions to develop important areas of law. I 
think the reverse payment patent settlement cases are certainly 
one where, back in 2003, the Commission issued a decision that 
ultimately was vindicated by the Supreme Court in 2013. I do 
believe that the development of antitrust doctrine is a very 
important aspect of what the Commission does.
    Senator Klobuchar. Very good. Thank you very much. I also 
wanted--Mr. Chairman, with your permission, Senator Leahy, our 
Ranking Member on the Judiciary Committee, asked that you--that 
we put on the record that he was unable to attend today because 
of another commitment, but he has a statement for the record, 
Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Lee. Thank you very much, Senator Klobuchar. We 
have now been joined by Senator Hatch, who I want to thank for 
his cosponsorship of the SMARTER Act, and we now recognize you, 
Senator Hatch.
    Senator Hatch. Thank you, Senator Lee. We appreciate you 
and your leadership on this matter. Let me just ask this 
question to you, Chairwoman Ramirez. I would like to read you a 
quote from the Antitrust Modernization Commission report:
    ``Parties to a proposed merger should receive comparable 
treatment and face similar burdens regardless of whether the 
FTC or the DOJ reviews their merger. A divergence undermines 
the public's trust that the antitrust agencies will review 
transactions efficiently and fairly. More important, it creates 
the impression that the ultimate decision as to whether a 
merger may proceed depends in substantial part on which agency 
reviews the transaction.''
    If you would, tell me why you think the Antitrust 
Modernization Commission--this is a bipartisan Commission 
composed of experts who have spent years investigating ways to 
improve our Nation's antitrust laws--was wrong.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Senator, I want to emphasize that the 
authority that we use when we exercise our authority to go into 
court, challenge a transaction, and then proceed 
administratively is authority that is used in very limited 
circumstances. Most of the transactions that we review are 
procompetitive and do not raise anticompetitive concerns. And 
so we really are talking about a very small number of 
transactions that ultimately are litigated.
    As to those, I believe that, notwithstanding the 
differences in procedure, that parties do receive fair 
treatment and that our merger enforcement process works well. I 
do not believe that parties are prejudiced. I do not believe 
that they face a substantially greater burden. I do not believe 
that there is a difference in outcome depending on which agency 
a party is before. In my mind, the proposed legislation is 
neither necessary, nor is it warranted.
    In addition, I feel that making such a change would risk 
hurting consumers, risk undermining the ability of the Federal 
Trade Commission to preserve competition in important areas, 
like health care, which has been a top priority for the agency 
over decades, among other sectors of the economy. I believe 
also that whenever you have this type of reform and change, I 
believe that it risks a number of unintended consequences and 
creates, frankly, more uncertainty.
    As a litigator of 20 years and currently a law enforcer, I 
can tell you that I do not believe it is going to be a wise use 
of taxpayer money and limited FTC resources to be litigating 
over the precise contours of the proposed reforms.
    Senator Hatch. You point in your testimony to a number of 
instances in which you say that Part 3 proceedings in merger 
cases yielded positive results for consumers. It is one thing 
to say look at Part 3, it has produced all these great results. 
It is another thing to say that Part 3 was necessary to achieve 
those results. Can you give me examples of instances in which 
Part 3 proceedings in merger cases yielded benefits to 
consumers that could not have been achieved throughout standard 
Section 7 district court litigation?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Senator, the authority that was given 
to the FTC was a very deliberate authority that was given by 
Congress. Congress elected in 1914, when it created the agency, 
to augment the then-existing antitrust authority that the 
Department of Justice had. I think that was a very deliberate 
decision. I think it has played out well.
    Admittedly, it is authority that we have used in the 
unconsummated merger context rarely. That to me also suggests 
yet another reason why I believe this particular set of changes 
are unnecessary. I think if you look at a number of merger 
cases, including the Evanston case, the Polypore case, the 
ProMedica case, we have addressed complex issues of antitrust 
law, and we have been affirmed by the appellate courts. I think 
these have been important developments that have benefited 
consumers over the long term.
    Senator Hatch. Okay. If the Commission cannot convince a 
court that blocking a merger is in the public interest, why 
does it make sense to allow the Commission to continue trying 
to stop a merger through its own internal administrative 
processes? If an independent adjudicator rejects the 
Commission's arguments, why should the Commission be able to 
continue prosecuting a case internally as both judge and jury?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Let me unpack your question, Senator, 
if I may.
    Senator Hatch. Sure.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. I want to make clear that the FTC can 
go into court to seek a preliminary injunction. If the FTC 
loses that request for preliminary injunction, at that point in 
time the Commission--we have a policy where we will examine 
whether it would be appropriate for us to continue with our 
administrative process. It has been a very long time since the 
Commission has elected to do that, and I assure you that in 
instances when that happens, the Commission will examine 
whether it is appropriate. It may not be appropriate, and at 
that point the matter would then be dismissed from the Part 3 
process. That is something that just does not happen as a 
matter of course. It is a very serious issue. The commission 
will examine it and look at it very, very carefully.
    Senator Hatch. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time 
is up.
    Chairman Lee. Thank you, Senator Hatch. I want to note for 
the record that we will include Senator Leahy's statement for 
the record, without objection.
    Chairman Lee. Senator Blumenthal.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for 
being here, Chairwoman Ramirez, and for your extraordinary and 
distinguished service as a litigator and now as the Chairperson 
of the FTC.
    I think in my humble opinion, with the greatest respect to 
the proponents of this legislation, the best thing about this 
proposal is its title, and I admire the creativity and 
ingenuity of its proponents because it seems to me that it is 
truly a solution in search of a problem. There is no real 
problem here. I want to just follow up on the point that you 
were just making because the Chairman of the Subcommittee has 
raised the specter of two separate trials or fact proceedings 
before two different judges imposing an inordinate burden on 
the parties. How often does that happen?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. It happens very rarely. It has been 
more than two decades since that has happened.
    Senator Blumenthal. Two decades ago.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Yes.
    Senator Blumenthal. There has been no instance in the last 
two decades where, in fact, two different district court judges 
held factual hearings requiring the parties to come forward and 
present their cases.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. It has been more than two decades since 
the Commission has lost a preliminary injunction and then 
proceeded administratively, correct.
    Senator Blumenthal. Because of the policy that you just 
mentioned, if you lose a preliminary injunction proceeding, it 
is a pretty good indication as to what the merits of the case 
are.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. That maybe right.
    Senator Blumenthal. Let me ask you, in your experience--and 
you are a pretty experienced antitrust litigator--does this 
difference in procedure involved in Department of Justice 
versus FTC actions result in different outcomes?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. In my view, it does not.
    Senator Blumenthal. That is because both agencies apply the 
same law. Is that correct?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Absolutely.
    Senator Blumenthal. Do the different procedures result in 
different costs or burdens on the parties?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. The FTC procedure may be a longer 
procedure because typically it is a two-step process whereby we 
would first go into federal court and then proceed 
administratively. I will note that parties could stipulate to a 
PI and then proceed immediately to a Part 3 process. Given 
reforms that we undertook in 2009 to streamline our 
administrative process, I believe the timeframe would be 
comparable to that in federal court.
    Senator Blumenthal. If a merger fails to withstand the 
scrutiny of a preliminary injunction proceeding, it may also be 
an indication to the parties that they need to reconsider a 
merger. Correct?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Yes.
    Senator Blumenthal. Is it not a fact that a lot of mergers 
are abandoned after an unsuccessful defense in a preliminary 
injunction proceeding?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Yes, that is so.
    Senator Blumenthal. In the long run, actually it may save 
the parties some money and a lot of travail and inconvenience 
and, in fact, internal costs to know right away as a result of 
a preliminary injunction proceeding that they are not going to 
succeed.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. It could very well.
    Senator Blumenthal. Let me just say I regard this 
legislation simply as an attempt to tinker with the current 
procedure without there being a real demonstrated need for it. 
In fact, it could have the effect of preventing or undermining 
effective antitrust scrutiny, which I think is all the more 
important today than ever before. The trend toward 
consolidation in various industries--airline, telecom, 
pharmaceutical, health care--in my view is bad for consumers, 
and I would ask, with the Chairman's permission to enter into 
the record a very cogent article written on July 8th by Greg Ip 
in the Wall Street Journal entitled, ``Why Corporate America 
Could Use More Competition.''
    Chairman Lee. Without objection.
    [The information appears as a submission for the record.]
    Senator Blumenthal. As well, a letter written by the 
Consumers Union on the subject of this legislation, which 
states very well the reasons that we ought to approach with a 
lot of skepticism this kind of legislation. It is October 6, 
2015, written by the Consumer Union to the Chairman and Ranking 
Member of this Subcommittee.
    Chairman Lee. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. That will be 
received into the record.
    [The information appears as a submission for the record.]
    Chairman Lee. Senator Tillis.
    Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for being 
here, Ms. Ramirez. I think I am the only non-attorney on the 
panel today, so I am not going to ask you a lot of legal 
questions. I am going to ask you a few practical questions.
    How on Earth could we assume that the present policy is 
really a time saver or money saver for businesses that are 
going through this? I mean, it just defies logic, particularly, 
let us say that you are not successful with getting the 
injunction, the merger moves on, and then the administrative 
processes continue. Why would anybody think that when you 
consider the merger is moving on, you are going through the 
administrative process, how on Earth could this in any way be a 
positive thing for the business moving forward with a merger? I 
mean, why can't--and let me ask you another question as we are 
going along with that. That is probably rhetorical. It just 
does not make sense. Again, I am viewing it from a business 
perspective.
    The Antitrust Commission report seemed to suggest that some 
of the changes that are proposed by the SMARTER Act may have 
merit. By the way, I am sure this is the first time in Congress 
that we have ever used a title like ``smarter'' to represent 
maybe an underlying bill that people would be opposed to. Can 
you give me some assessment--I assume you have read the 
Commission report and why you would disagree with the 
Commission's report on certain things that seem to link two 
provisions of the SMARTER Act?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Let me address your first question. I 
want to clarify that I am not taking the position that the two-
step process that is typically used by the Federal Trade 
Commission is a time saver. What I am saying is that I do not 
believe that our process prejudices parties; I do not believe 
that it enhances the leverage that the FTC exercises over 
parties in connection with merger challenges. I am saying also 
saying that the process does not have an impact on outcomes, 
and that it is ultimately comparable to what transpires when 
the Department of Justice is looking at transactions.
    Then with regard to your second question, I will just make 
two points. One is just that the overarching process is a fair 
one and an appropriate one. Again, I will emphasize that this 
was----
    Senator Tillis. That does not really get to my question, 
though. I know that you have consistently responded with your 
belief that the current process is fair and open. What I am 
getting to specifically are some of the recommendations of the 
Commission report and why, rather than defending your position 
by saying you think it is fair and open, discuss why the 
proposed changes, some of which map to some of the SMARTER 
provisions do not make sense. In other words, let us get into a 
specific reason why the proposed changes represent a problem. 
To go back to your line of responses, explain to me why the 
changes would make it an unfair and inconsistent process.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. A key concern expressed by the 
Commission was an issue about the preliminary injunction 
standard that is used by the Federal Trade Commission in 
contrast to the Department of Justice. I have to say that if 
one looks at how the courts have applied those standards--the 
standards are, in fact, stated differently--but the way that 
the courts have applied them, they apply them in the same way. 
Both the Federal Trade Commission and the Department of Justice 
have to make a rigorous evidentiary and legal showing that the 
proposed transaction is likely to substantially lessen 
competition, and it is only when that showing has been made 
that a court will grant a preliminary injunction.
    That central concern of the Commission is one that when one 
actually examines what transpires in the courts--I do not 
believe is justified.
    Senator Tillis. Mr. Chair, I was running late to this 
Committee because I was in a Senate Armed Services Committee 
hearing. I repeatedly say in Senate Armed Services that I never 
want our men and women in uniform to go into a fair fight. In 
other words, I always want them to be better equipped and 
better trained. In this particular case, it seems to me that 
the devices that we have, that the Government has available to 
it now almost make it certain that businesses go under this 
with an unfair fight and an unfair advantage. For that reason, 
I support the SMARTER Act, and I look forward to seeing it move 
through the Committee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Chairman Lee. Thank you, Senator Tillis.
    Most merger cases tend to settle after the grant of a 
preliminary injunction. Doesn't this counsel in favor of having 
a bench trial on the merits at the same time? Wouldn't that 
suggest that we ought to have that? In other words, if the 
answer is no because the parties sometimes prevail in later 
litigation on the merits, isn't this an even stronger reason to 
ensure that the preliminary injunction and merits are litigated 
at the same time? Some of the same arguments you are using--one 
of the arguments you are using here is that, you know, you have 
not used this authority in 20 years, it rarely arises, and so 
why worry about it. I do worry about it because of the fact 
that if in practical effect most of the time you have one bite 
at the apple anyway, and in your case, in the case of something 
that under the jurisdiction of the FTC, if the bite at the 
apple tends to be at the preliminary injunction phase, then why 
not have the more fulsome type of review that you have when you 
have a whole review on the merits? Why not have that all at 
once?
    I am sympathetic to the view in this and in every other 
area of the law that we do not want to adopt things that are 
solutions in search of problems. I think the same criticism can 
be made of the existing provision of law. If the existing 
provision of law is itself a solution in search of a problem, 
then why not make the two standards the same? Why not put 
people through the same process?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Mr. Chairman, I would argue that the 
parties can, under our current system--what they can do is that 
they can stipulate to a preliminary injunction, which is 
something that we seek in order to enable us to obtain 
meaningful relief at the conclusion of a merits trial. The 
parties could very easily stipulate to not consummate the 
particular merger or to a robust hold separate, and then 
proceed to a merits trial, and there you would then be before 
the Commission, and you would go through the merits trial 
before a Commission and then obviate a step before a federal 
court.
    That is a process, if parties so choose, that is available 
to them. I would argue that that is another route that one can 
take, and one need not alter the existing system in order to 
allow for that, to address the concerns that you have 
expressed.
    Chairman Lee. Yet that does not happen in this context, at 
least not with the same regularity that it happens----
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Parties actually--
    Chairman Lee [continuing]. When a matter is before the DOJ.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Apologies for interrupting you, but it 
actually does occur on occasion.
    Chairman Lee. With the same regularity----
    Chairwoman Ramirez. On occasion. We are speaking about a 
very small number of matters. The Ardagh case, that was a 
situation where there was such a stipulation, and then it 
proceeded to a merits trial. Ultimately they are resolved via 
settlement. Again, we are speaking about a very small universe 
of cases, and so the numbers are not large.
    Chairman Lee. I want to make sure I understand your 
position correctly. Do you believe there is no difference 
between the preliminary injunction standard prescribed for the 
FTC under Section 13(b) of the FTC Act and the one that applies 
to the DOJ?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. There is no question that the standards 
are worded differently. There is different language that is 
used under the authority that we exercise. But in my----
    Chairman Lee. In effect, though----
    Chairwoman Ramirez. In my view, in effect, they are the 
same--I believe district courts take their role very seriously. 
They absolutely understand the importance of this preliminary 
injunction phase. I think we see that evidenced by the two most 
recent matters in which we have sought a preliminary 
injunction: the Sysco matter, in which we prevailed and did get 
a grant of an injunction. The court wrote this incredibly 
detailed 130-page opinion. It was thorough, careful. Courts 
undertake this role very seriously, and I believe that they end 
up applying the same standard that they end up applying when 
the Department of Justice seeks the preliminary injunction.
    Chairman Lee. If they are, in effect, the same, if they 
have the same practical effect, why not have them also be the 
same?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Ultimately, in the abstract, I have no 
issue with harmonizing the preliminary injunction standards. My 
fear, again, and I say this with 20 years of litigation 
experience and in my experience of several years as a law 
enforcer with the Commission, my fear is that a change in the 
standard--given that right now it is the same standard as the 
Department of Justice, my fear is that courts would then not 
understand the purpose of the change and perhaps end up 
imposing either a higher standard or it simply would create 
uncertainty as to what exactly the new standard ought to be. I 
think it risks uncertainty, but in theory, harmonization of the 
standards I do not see as a problem. I believe they are already 
de facto similar standards.
    Chairman Lee. Okay. I think I understand your position 
there. I struggle with it just the same because if I am 
understanding you correctly, you are saying we have got two 
different standards, but they are interpreted the same way by 
courts. If we make the standards as they are written into the 
law literally the same, then the courts might make them 
different. I do struggle with that.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Senator, my point is simply that I do 
not believe there is a need to make a change here. My worry is 
that with any change, attorneys who zealously advocate for 
their clients and parties who, as you know, look for any 
argument that they can make, I just fear needless litigation 
over issues about what the standard might mean if there is a 
change, given that in my mind it is being applied appropriately 
today. Why make a change?
    Furthermore, this particular bill goes far beyond that and 
then addresses, again, the adjudicative authority that we have. 
My concerns extend beyond simply harmonization of the PI 
standard.
    Chairman Lee. What would you say responding to my concern 
that the courts, as a matter of--canons of statutory 
construction tell judges that they are not supposed to assume 
that differences in legislative language are irrelevant. They 
are not supposed to just lightly ignore surplus or minor 
differences. I mean, I think I could--if what you are worried 
about is consistency in the application of the law, I could 
make a corresponding argument to yours that would say the 
greater risk is that at some point courts are going to realize, 
hey, these are not the same standard, there must be a 
difference, and that could change that way.
    We, of course, do not have control over what the courts do, 
but we do have control over what the law says. If what you are 
telling me is that the law ought to provide for the same 
substantive standard, the same standard in effect, I do 
struggle with the idea that we should not change the law to 
make sure that the law actually says the same thing in these 
two areas. Do you want to respond to that?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Senator, let me take issue with the way 
that you have constructed your comment. The courts are not 
comparing the FTC standard to the Department of Justice 
standard. Let me also state that the standard that is applied, 
of course, with the Department of Justice is the traditional 
preliminary injunction standard that is in the common law, that 
is articulated by courts. They are not comparing the language 
that is in the FTC Act to that traditional standard. I think 
your point about statutory construction I do not believe it is 
opposite to the way courts approach this issue.
    I would urge the Members of the Committee to look closely 
at the way that the courts in the Sysco matter, the decision in 
June, and also the recent decision in the Steris case, see how 
those courts apply the standard and compare that to the way 
courts have applied the standard in Department of Justice 
cases. You will see that same requirement--that the FTC must 
establish a likelihood of success on the merits. Again, in my 
mind, the way the standards are articulated end up no 
differently, and the outcomes in my mind are also not 
determinative, depending on who it is that you are in front of.
    Chairman Lee. Harm could come from additional efforts at 
statutory clarity.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. I am sorry?
    Chairman Lee. If we attempt to clarify the standard, harm 
could come from that. That is your concern.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. That is a worry. More fundamentally, my 
concerns are--go beyond the issue of harmonization of the PI 
standard. My major concern about this proposed legislation is 
with regard to the effort to eliminate the administrative 
process. That is the fundamental concern.
    Chairman Lee. Got it. Thank you. Senator Klobuchar.
    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much. I just had one side 
question about pharmaceuticals. As you know, Turing 
Pharmaceuticals announced a 5,000-percent price increase on 
Daraprim, a drug used to prevent malaria and treat 
toxoplasmosis. Yesterday, I sent a letter to the FTC asking you 
to investigate whether Turing was restricting supply, and we 
are well aware of the price increase, but this is about whether 
or not they are restricting supply to prevent generics from 
getting on the market and to delay generic competition.
    On Monday, the New York Times also covered price increases 
by Valeant Pharmaceuticals. What role do you see antitrust laws 
in general, without maybe commenting on the specific situation 
as you look into it, what role does the FTC and antitrust laws 
have to play in this clearly emerging problematic area?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Senator, as I think you are well aware, 
it is a top priority for us to monitor the pharmaceutical 
industry. It is an area that we have been active in for 
decades. We share your concern when we see significant price 
hikes. We look closely when we do see price hikes. As a general 
matter, price hikes alone may not necessarily mean that there 
is anticompetitive conduct. If there is, we certainly will be 
taking appropriate action should we find there has been a 
violation of the antitrust laws.
    Senator Klobuchar. Do you think we are going to need a 
different legislative solution rather than antitrust laws if 
this kind of behavior is allowed and these patients are just at 
the mercy of people increasing prices if, in fact, there is not 
per se an antitrust violation?
    Chairwoman Ramirez. I think that is an issue that certainly 
your Committee and other Members of Congress should examine. In 
the meantime, we are certainly going to do our job and ensure 
that the antitrust laws are appropriately enforced and that we 
do what we can to protect consumers.
    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you very much.
    Chairman Lee. Thank you very much, Chairwoman Ramirez. We 
will give our next panel a few minutes to get situated, and 
then we will resume.
    Chairwoman Ramirez. Thank you.
    Chairman Lee. Thank you very much.
    [Setting up second panel.]
    Chairman Lee. Okay. Can I get this panel of witnesses to 
now stand and be sworn? Do you affirm that the testimony you 
are about to give before the Committee will be the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
    Ms. Garza. I do.
    Mr. Clanton. I do.
    Mr. Lipsky. I do.
    Mr. Jacobson. I do.
    [Witnesses are sworn in.]
    Chairman Lee. Thank you. Okay. I will introduce all of the 
witnesses together, and then we will come back to you for your 
opening statements.
    Ms. Deborah Garza is the co-chair of Covington & Burling's 
Antitrust and Competition Law Practice Group. With more than 30 
years of experience in both the private and public sectors, Ms. 
Garza has been involved in some of the largest antitrust 
matters in the last 30 years, including the merger of Exxon and 
Mobil, the U.S. Government's suit against Microsoft, the USFL 
suit against the NFL, and many other litigation and regulatory 
matters on behalf of Fortune 500 companies. Before joining 
Covington, Ms. Garza served as Acting Assistant Attorney 
General in charge of the Antitrust Division at the Department 
of Justice. She was also appointed by President George W. Bush 
to chair the Antitrust Modernization Commission, the bipartisan 
blue ribbon panel created by Congress to study and report to 
the President and Congress on the State of antitrust 
enforcement in the United States. Ms. Garza received her 
bachelor's degree from Northern Illinois University and her 
J.D. from the University of Chicago--which happens to be 
Senator Klobuchar's alma mater.
    Mr. David Clanton is senior counsel at Baker & McKenzie, 
where he also serves as head of the firm's Global and North 
American Antitrust Practice Groups. Mr. Clanton has over 30 
years of experience representing clients in high-profile and 
complex antitrust matters. Prior to joining Baker & McKenzie, 
Mr. Clanton served as a Commissioner and as Acting Chairman of 
the Federal Trade Commission. Mr. Clanton received his 
bachelor's degree from Andrews University and his J.D. from 
Wayne Law School, where he served on the Law Review.
    Mr. Tad Lipsky is a partner in the Washington, DC office of 
Latham & Watkins. He is recognized internationally for his work 
on both U.S. and global antitrust law and policy and has 
handled antitrust matters throughout the world. Before Latham & 
Watkins, Mr. Lipsky served as chief antitrust lawyer for The 
Coca-Cola Company for 10 years. Mr. Lipsky also served as 
Deputy Assistant Attorney General under William F. Baxter. Mr. 
Lipsky received his B.A. from Amherst College, his M.A. from 
Stanford, and his J.D. from Stanford.
    Mr. Jonathan Jacobson is a partner in the New York office 
of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati. He has significant merger 
experience, including trials in cases brought by the Justice 
Department and Federal Trade Commission, as well as numerous 
fully cleared transactions and consent decrees. He currently 
serves as vice chair of the ABA's Section of Antitrust Law, 
having previously served as an officer, council member, and in 
several other Antitrust Section positions, including editorial 
chair of Antitrust Law Developments. Prior to joining Wilson 
Sonsini, Jonathan was a partner at Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & 
Feld's New York office, where he co-chaired the firm's National 
Antitrust Practice. He served as a Commissioner on the 
Antitrust Modernization Commission.
    All the witnesses' written statements will be entered into 
the record in their entirety. I ask that each witness summarize 
her or his testimony in 5 minutes or less. Thank you for being 
here.
    Ms. Garza, the floor is yours.

           STATEMENT OF DEBORAH GARZA, FORMER CHAIR,

        ANTITRUST MODERNIZATION COMMISSION, AND PARTNER,

            COVINGTON & BURLING LLP, WASHINGTON, DC

    Ms. Garza. Chairman Lee, Ranking Member Klobuchar and 
fellow Chicago alum, and staff and Members of the Subcommittee, 
thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today in 
support of the proposed SMARTER Act. I would like to join my 
voice to those of the folks who commented in the prior panel 
about how great the title is. I also think it is a great title.
    As you mentioned, from May 2003 through May 2007, I served 
as chair of the bipartisan Antitrust Modernization Commission, 
which was created by Congress to review and report on the state 
of U.S. antitrust law enforcement. The AMC Report included 
three recommendations that are relevant to this hearing.
    The first was that when the FTC seeks injunctive relief in 
HSR Act merger cases in Federal court, it should seek both 
preliminary relief and permanent injunctive relief, and it 
should seek to consolidate those proceedings so long as it is 
able to do so by reaching an agreement with an appropriate 
scheduling order with the parties.
    Two, Congress should amend Section 13(b) of the FTC Act to 
prohibit the FTC from pursuing administrative litigation in HSR 
merger cases.
    Three, Congress should ensure that the same standard for 
granting a preliminary injunction in a merger case should apply 
to both the FTC and the DOJ.
    The SMARTER Act essentially adopts those recommendations, 
and it is a great honor and pleasure to be here today to 
testify in support of the Act. Although it has been 8 years 
since the AMC made its recommendation, I have never lost faith 
that the good-government vision of those recommendations would 
someday prevail. I will note that there are a lot more 
recommendations in the report, should you ever want to consider 
any of those as well.
    The premise of the SMARTER Act is simple: A merger should 
not be treated differently depending on which antitrust 
enforcement agency--the DOJ or the FTC--happens to review it. 
Regulatory outcomes should not be determined by a flip of the 
merger agency coin. I know there is a question that a number of 
the Senators have about how exactly the differences could 
potentially affect outcomes, and I look forward to talking 
about that in the Q&A.
    I think the legislation is needed because it is important 
to maintain consensus about the value of a strong antitrust 
enforcement regime. A perception of unequal or unfair treatment 
undermines that consensus.
    When the AMC was considering what issues to study and 
examine and report on, we decided to include this issue in a 
very large group of issues we were considering precisely 
because we did hear from people that they did perceive, and I 
think for good reason, that there were significant differences 
between the ways that the two agencies looked at pre-notified 
mergers that needed to be addressed.
    I would like to close--I will not repeat my favorite part 
of the AMC--well, maybe I will. I guess I will. It has been 
said three or four times, but I like it so much I will say, as 
the AMC explained, parties to a merger should receive 
comparable treatment and face similar burdens regardless of 
whether the FTC or the DOJ reviews their merger. A divergence 
undermines the public's trust that the antitrust agencies will 
review transactions efficiently and fairly. More important, it 
creates the impression that the ultimate decision as to whether 
a merger may proceed depends in substantial part on which 
agency reviews the transaction. That is bad for antitrust 
enforcement.
    I would like to close by making three points clear about 
the AMC's recommendations and the SMARTER Act:
    One, they are not anti-FTC. I think the FTC has done a 
terrific job. I admire Chairwoman Ramirez and all of her staff 
at the FTC. The AMC recommendations and the SMARTER Act are not 
anti-enforcement. This is not about tying the FTC's hands or 
doing anything to inhibit merger enforcement.
    The recommendations in the SMARTER Act I do not think 
should be perceived as partisan. Five of six Commissioners 
appointed by Democrats agree to the first recommendation, 
including Mr. Jacobson. Five of six Commissioners appointed by 
Democrats agree to the second recommendation. Mr. Jacobson was 
a dissenter. All six Commissioners appointed by Democrats agree 
to the third recommendation. While we may have differences on 
what is the best way to proceed--and there are some complex 
questions here--I hope that will not be treated as a political 
issue but, rather, as a good-government issue.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Garza appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chairman Lee. Thank you very much, Ms. Garza. I figure 
better late than never as far as the delay between the issuance 
of the report--I love the conviction with which you have 
described the report and quoted it. For a minute there, I 
thought you were going to break into song in describing----
    Ms. Garza. You would not want me to break into song.
    [Laughter.]
    Chairman Lee. Senator Klobuchar and I had a hearing a few 
months ago where we had a bunch of songwriters, and one of them 
was a country music songwriter. Senator Klobuchar observed that 
everything the man said sounded as if it were a country music 
song.
    Senator Klobuchar. We have high standards.
    Chairman Lee. High standards here, yes. Mr. Clanton.

             STATEMENT OF DAVID A. CLANTON, SENIOR

         COUNSEL, BAKER & MCKENZIE LLP, WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Clanton. Chairman Lee, Senator Klobuchar, thanks for 
inviting me.
    What I would like to do to follow up on what Ms. Garza 
mentioned is to focus on the changes to the administrative 
process, primarily, and come back and talk about the injunction 
standards. It is important to take a step back and look at the 
fact that this legislation is primarily focused on HSR 
reportable transactions. That was the whole thrust of the AMC 
recommendation.
    The reason for that is, unlike any other area that the 
antitrust enforce, statute is one that was designed to have the 
agencies work together to create a system whereby would have 
opportunity to review transactions, get the information they 
need to conduct a thorough investigation, and hold up the deal 
until a chance to. I can tell you from personal experience--and 
all of us can do that investigative process takes a long time. 
It takes many months in most cases.
    Frequent reference has been made to the Sysco case, where 
the Commission did win a preliminary injunction. The 
investigation there from before the parties went to court was 
over a year, slightly over a year. Then after that, you had a 
preliminary injunction hearing that lasted about 4 months, and 
after that, the parties abandoned the transaction before the 
matter went back to an administrative hearing. This is really 
where the specific issue comes into play in terms of what 
happens.
    At the end of that lengthy process, whether it is 6 months, 
8 months, 10 months, or a year, the agency and the parties are 
ready to go to trial, and they are ready to go to trial on the 
merits, not just a preliminary injunction. Frankly, that is 
what you see happening at the Department of Justice.
    Typically, in recent years DOJ, the parties have agreed to 
consolidate the proceeding and have a trial on the merits, 
which gives the parties an opportunity to defend and requires 
the Government to prove by a preponderance of evidence that the 
transaction Section 7 of the Clayton Act.
    By contrast, on the FTC side, the process works this way: 
The agency goes to seek a preliminary injunction. The parties 
defend that. The evidence that is put in preliminary injunction 
is pretty much the same evidence that would go into a trial on 
the merits. There might be fewer witnesses than would be in an 
administrative hearing or in a consolidated hearing. By and 
large, the investigation has been completed by that time.
    The question then is, what is the reasonable process for 
litigating those issues and how do you get to a point where you 
have a decision that is on the merits or a reasonable 
opportunity. Just use the Sysco case as an example, since it is 
current--and I refer to it in my statement took a year for the 
investigation. It took for the preliminary injunction hearing. 
Then if the parties had not abandoned the transaction and the 
case had gone through an administrative process, would have 
taken--from the time of decision, another 8 months: a month 
until the hearing date started and then another 7 months under 
the Commission rules for a final decision.
    I think it is important to keep in mind that not only is 
it, but if you look at the Commission process--and the 
Commission has done a good job in trying to speed up its rules, 
and I will give them credit. It is a two-stage. You have got an 
administrative law judge a hearing, which would be analogous to 
a district court hearing on the merits. Then after that, issues 
a decision. Then there is an appeal to the full Commission. The 
full Commission reviews and issues its decision as a mini-
internal appellate court.
    When you add all those elements together, it is a long 
time, and it is a lot longer. I gave as two examples cases that 
DOJ went through and handled in a consolidated fashion, a few 
years ago. One of those lasted 5 months, the other lasted 6 
months, for the entire trial on the merits.
    We are talking about, using Sysco, if it had been tried--
and it was not. If it had been tried administratively, it would 
have taken twice as long from the end of the investigation 
until you get a final decision. That does not even take into 
account appellate court if either party wants to appeal.
    You add all that up, it is not surprising that the Sysco 
parties decided to abandon, because at the end of all that 
would have been two years or you would have gotten a final 
decision on the merits.
    I think it is important to understand how that process 
works and what the implications are, and I might say that 
reference made that the Commission has not continued a 
proceeding where they lost the preliminary injunction in 20 
years. There has not been an administrative hearing they in 20 
years. There has been no administrative decisions articulating 
the law in the last 20 years either way, whether the Commission 
wins or loses.
    Suggests to me that changing this law and having everything 
handled at the court level is not going to on the Commission's 
administrative process, and the cases that Chairwoman Ramirez 
cited, Evanston, Polypore, ProMedica. All consummated. They 
would not have been covered by this legislation. The Commission 
still has an opportunity to articulate its views in those 
matters.
    I am over my time. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Clanton appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chairman Lee. Thank you. Mr. Lipsky.

              STATEMENT OF ABBOTT B. LIPSKY, JR.,

         PARTNER, LATHAM & WATKINS LLP, WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Lipsky. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Senator Klobuchar. 
I am very grateful for the opportunity to testify.
    I guess--very much enjoyed that very substantive exchange 
with Chairwoman Ramirez. A very interesting conversation. 
Having come after two other excellent witnesses, I guess I am 
in the position where everything that needs to be said probably 
has been said, but just not by me. I am going to try to limit 
myself to supplemental points.
    I did want to state that I am here as somebody who totally 
supports the idea of a competitive market and sound enforcement 
of antitrust as a means of maintaining a competitive market to 
maximize American productivity and innovation. I totally 
support the antitrust mission. I support this legislation 
because I believe it will improve in the conduct of that 
mission.
    It has been mentioned that it has been 20 years since there 
was an administrative litigation involving a case where there 
was a preliminary injunction loss. I want to point out that was 
because of sound activity at the Commission itself. As I have 
described at some length in my testimony, there was a 9-year 
litigation involving a post-transaction hearing involving the 
Coca-Cola attempt to acquire Dr Pepper. There was a 6-year 
litigation when R.R. Donnelley tried to acquire Meredith/Burda.
    The consensus professional learning from those two 
experiences was that those hearings were a waste of public 
resources, and the Commission, under the democratically 
appointed Chairman Bob Pitofsky, to his great credit, 
implemented the 1995 policy statement and adopted 16 CFR 3.26, 
which, although it did not say this in so many words, was 
widely understood in the profession as essentially implementing 
what came to be called the ``Pitofsky rule,'' namely, that 
administrative litigation would not be used in those 
circumstances. That piece prevailed until the amendment of the 
rule in 2008, I believe it was. 16 CFR 3.26 was actually 
repealed, although it was recently reinstated, I believe at 
least partially in consciousness of the possibility of this 
legislation going forward.
    What we are asking for fundamentally in this legislation is 
that the sound administration that began with Chairman Pitofsky 
and proceeded until 2008, that that essentially be codified. As 
other witnesses have described, we do not think that will have 
any significant impact on the Commission's antitrust mission.
    The other thing that I think has not been emphasized that I 
would like to hear emphasized in consideration of this 
legislation is that merger activity is one type of competitive 
conduct where speed and efficiency in decision making is 
particularly critical. In a situation where an agency begins an 
investigation over something that has occurred in the past, 
whether it is a price-fixing cartel, the formation of a trade 
association or the activities of some other body, the record 
is, as the investigation reveals and discovers it, and the 
agency can--and, of course, it is always good to have efficient 
and speedy procedures. In a merger and acquisition situation, 
everybody is waiting for the decision in order for their 
business history to be written.
    It is only fairly recently that the Commission has been 
given some very substantial powers to prevent transactions from 
occurring. Remember, 13(b) was passed in 1973, and at that time 
the only ability of the Commission to go in and stop a 
prospective merger would be to invoke the--go to a Federal 
appellate court and invoke the All Writs Act and seek an 
injunction under what was a terribly punishing standard. The 
Commission has to establish that divestiture following 
consummation of the transaction would be--I think the phrase is 
``nearly impossible,'' which is much more than likelihood of 
success on the merits and balance of the equities.
    Then shortly thereafter, we got the Hart-Scott-Rodino Act, 
which basically blows the whistle on any substantial 
acquisition until the agency has a full opportunity to 
investigate and opine on the legality of the merger. With those 
two extremely powerful tools in their toolkit, the Commission 
has a very adequate means of investigating and then going to 
court and using that permanent injunction standard in 13(b)--
permanent injunction authority in 13(b), as, Mr. Chairman, I 
think you very effectively suggested they might try to do. 
Thank you very much.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Lipsky appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chairman Lee. Thank you. Mr. Jacobson.

          STATEMENT OF JONATHAN M. JACOBSON, PARTNER,

             WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI, PC,

          NEW YORK, NEW YORK, AND FORMER COMMISSIONER,

               ANTITRUST MODERNIZATION COMMISSION

    Mr. Jacobson. Chairman Lee, thank you very much for having 
me here today. I oppose that part of this bill that would 
eliminate Part 3 administrative adjudication in HSR cases.
    I want to start by answering a question that you posed 
earlier today, and that is, why should there be a second shot 
by the FTC? Here is the reason: Sometimes courts get it really, 
really wrong, and I think our experience with the hospital 
merger cases in the 1990s shows that quite convincingly.
    What do you do when the courts are getting it really, 
really wrong? Well, the Justice Department has only one avenue, 
which is to appeal. The FTC is an administrative agency, and 
like the IRS' ability to nonacquiesce in court decisions, the 
FTC here has comparable authority in--to take the case into a 
Part 3 and get an administrative adjudication, which will later 
be reviewed by a court of appeals, but on a basis where a 
record can be established. There may be new theories. There may 
be new ways of looking at the evidence that a busy district 
judge who, you know, has many other matters pending just is not 
going to have the time to address appropriately. I would 
suggest that the Part 3 process that has been in place for so 
long is a necessary and very important part of the basic 
administrative mission of the Federal Trade Commission.
    One of the basic premises of the bill is that the 
availability of these proceedings makes it harder to get an FTC 
deal through and concluded than one cleared to DOJ, and that 
has just not been my experience. My experience to the contrary 
is that the idea that one agency has an advantage over the 
other is a myth.
    The potential to commence a Part 3 proceeding can be used 
in negotiations. I have never heard it, but it is certainly 
theoretically possible. What really matters when you are trying 
to get your deal through is what staff has been assigned to 
your deal. It is not just, you know, the clearance process, 
which is something the AMC recommended Congress address, and I 
would strongly urge you, Senator Lee, to take a look at that 
series of recommendations. In terms of what really matters in 
getting the deals through, it is the staff, and the staffs at 
the DOJ are different. There are different merger shops at the 
DOJ. The staffs at the FTC are different. There is no advantage 
in getting the deal through, which is really what the companies 
really care about. The fact of a potential Part 3, which has 
not happened in over 20 years, just does not play a role in the 
negotiations in the real world.
    The FTC's case-by-case approach is the appropriate 
approach. There has been no occasion to use this authority for 
a long period of time. Where it is--and I mentioned the 
hospital type of cases--that is something where consumers are 
going to benefit from a careful review by the agency, subject 
to appellate review by the court of appeals of the defendant's 
choice.
    A lot has been said about the inconvenience to the parties. 
It is important to recognize that if the preliminary injunction 
has been denied, the deal can close. The stockholders get their 
money. The bankers get their fees, which is, you know, very 
important to them, certainly. There is additional legal 
expense, but there is no delay. The legal expense is not 
different than you face in any merger context. A merger can 
always be challenged post-consummation. It can be challenged by 
the DOJ. There is no statute of limitations applicable to post-
consummation challenges by the DOJ. It can be challenged within 
4 years by private parties or by any of the various State 
attorneys general. This is an inherent risk that you get in 
every case, and the fact of the Part 3 proceedings really does 
not exacerbate it at all.
    Finally, I would refer you to my written statement. There 
are some language issues in terms of the draft of the 
legislation, so if it does go forward, I would urge you to look 
at the proposed changes in my written remarks. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Jacobson appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chairman Lee. Thank you very much. I would like to start 
with Ms. Garza. The FTC's administrative process, as we have 
established today, has been used rarely, if at all, in roughly 
20 years to block an unconsummated merger. Tell me what your 
opinion about--what is the best case you can make about what, 
if any, value there is to the FTC of that unused proceeding, 
you know, separate and apart from any value of the FTC's 
administrative processes more generally. I am talking about in 
this context.
    Ms. Garza. I think the FTC does perceive a value in it, and 
I think to see how that works, you might consider the context 
of the hospital mergers that we have been talking about. There 
was a long period of time in which both the Justice Department 
and the Federal Trade Commission had poor success in convincing 
courts to block mergers, and this is an example, by the way, of 
where both the DOJ and the FTC do happen to look at mergers in 
the same industry in hospital cases. There had been a series of 
losses.
    As people have said in their testimony, their written 
testimony and a bit today, the FTC focused on how to change 
that, which is fine, which is what you would want an agency to 
do. One of the ways was to--was the Evanston case, which is a 
post-consummation proceeding at which they used to develop the 
evidence and to show how that a hospital merger could be 
anticompetitive so they had that to use.
    Then you come to the Inova merger in Northern Virginia, 
where, in part with the leadership of Commissioner Tom Rosch, 
the FTC made a concerted effort to turn their track record 
around. What they did there was, in part, they had basically 
withdrawn, as Tad said, as Mr. Lipsky said, withdrawn the 
Pitofsky rule, so they said no longer are--we are not bound 
anymore by our policy of not pursuing administrative hearings 
if we lose a preliminary injunction.
    They amended their rules for administrative hearings to 
make it somewhat more efficient and streamlined and quicker. 
Then they went into the court and tried to convince the court 
to give--I would say to apply a less severe or less difficult 
standard to the issuance of a preliminary injunction by telling 
the court that it should really defer to the FTC and allow--
just have enough to say that there is enough of a basis to 
allow the FTC to go into Part 3. They started the Part 3 
hearing process at the same time that they went into court.
    The combination of all of that was intended to and did 
influence the parties' decision not to fight. The parties 
issued a statement after the fact that said we had to give up--
oh, and, by the way, the other thing they did is that--all for 
good measure, is that Tom Rosch, Commissioner Rosch was to 
serve as the Administrative Law Judge in the proceeding that 
tried the merger case.
    The whole--it was a smart use of the toolkit that the FTC 
had. It was definitely intended to help them to win this merger 
case, which they wanted to do. No one, I think, begrudges the 
FTC that it used that toolkit. That is what you want an agency 
to do. The problem is that it was perceived at the time, not 
only by the parties but by other folks, as basically an example 
of how the FTC could get the results it wanted, in this case it 
would be good to have the parties abandon the transaction by 
using its unique processes and procedures, which are different 
from the DOJ.
    The reason, I think, that the legislation is appropriate is 
because you should not expect the FTC to itself not exercise 
and use all of the tools in its toolkit. Congress should decide 
whether it is appropriate to have two different procedures, and 
if it is not, then it should legislate.
    Chairman Lee. It is going to use those tools, and the fact 
that it has the tools at all and can use them and occasionally 
does use them has an impact on the parties and the way they----
    Ms. Garza. It has an impact, and I will not go on too long, 
but at some point think about how you advise a client when they 
are deciding whether to enter into a transaction and how to 
allocate risk or when they are before an agency--I will not do 
it now because it would take too long, but the way that you 
describe what the situation is at DOJ that they face is very 
different from what they will face at the FTC when you are a 
lawyer telling them that. Believe me, it sounds different, and 
I know that it impacts decisions on whether or not to go into a 
transaction in the first place and how far the parties will 
stick to a transaction and whether or not they abandon it and 
whether or not they concede to provisions and consent decrees 
that they would prefer not to, but they cannot take the risk of 
waiting 2 years potentially in order to close their merger.
    Chairman Lee. Thank you. Mr. Clanton, you described how for 
FTC cases the preliminary injunction is the de facto merits 
hearing because mergers do not survive in FTC cases beyond the 
PI stage. Is this hearing, this type of hearing, the hearing at 
the preliminary injunction stage, is it less robust than the 
type of review that you would have in a consolidated hearing, 
the type of hearing that you would typically have in a case 
involving the DOJ?
    Mr. Clanton. I think it is less robust, but I will say and 
I would acknowledge that in some cases the court has given very 
extensive scrutiny to what should be the primary issue, which 
is likelihood of success. I think that did happen in the Sysco 
case. I think the Commission briefs pretty deliberately focused 
on that standard as the thing that the court should look to as 
the primary factor.
    You do have decisions where there has been a fairly robust 
consideration of the legal issues, and, again, you would expect 
that from the standpoint of, you know, how the matter has been 
investigated, the long time that has been involved in that.
    I would also point to other decisions--and Ms. Garza 
mentioned that as well--where this--the PI standard, the lower 
PI--well, there are two issues: a lower PI standard, number 
one; and number two, the fact that the hearing is on a PI and 
not on the merits. Fundamentally, I think that is wrong as a 
matter of fairness in terms of a reasonable opportunity for a 
defendant to get a determination on whether this transaction is 
lawful or not.
    One thing I would mention is if you go back--and there has 
been various statements over the years, but the Commission sent 
a letter to Chairman Conyers in 2008, unanimously, expressly 
endorsing a lower standard and citing the Whole Foods case and 
others that set forth a standard that does not specifically or 
primarily put emphasis on the likelihood of success.
    You know, you have got inconsistencies, significant 
inconsistencies over time in terms of how the Commission has 
interpreted and advocated the scope of their authority to seek 
a PI.
    Chairman Lee. Thank you. Mr. Lipsky, does the Pitofsky rule 
obviate the need for legislation here, obviate the need for 
legislation removing the FTC's option of pursuing 
administrative litigation with respect to proposed mergers?
    Mr. Lipsky. No. I think the Pitofsky rule should be 
codified precisely because it has proven to be so changeable 
over the years with the policy statement having survived more 
or less in its 1995 form, but the Commission going back on 
adoption of this Rule 3.26, which actually tries to implement 
that and it has been interpreted largely as embodying the 
Pitofsky rule. It is exactly, as David Clanton just mentioned, 
the tendency of the Commission, depending on its membership, 
depending on, you know, the themes of the times, to shift 
interpretations of its authority, which, of course, is natural 
and probably unavoidable to a great extent. I think that is the 
strongest type of reason for asking Congress to fix it 
according to its own judgment and to make sure that this 
provision will be enforced as written.
    Chairman Lee. Thank you. Mr. Jacobson, what is the best 
argument you can give me for subjecting certain industries and, 
therefore, certain types of proposed mergers to one set of 
standards and processes and another industry and another set of 
proposed mergers to a different set of standards and procedures 
based on what we could call ``the coin flip'' of which agency 
happens to review their transactions?
    Mr. Jacobson. As you will see----
    Chairman Lee. Push the red button, if you will.
    Mr. Jacobson. Sorry. As you will see from the AMC report, I 
wish it was a coin flip, but it is a little more complicated 
than that. Why should there be a different substantive 
standard? I do not think there is, and I want to make clear I 
am not opposing that part of the legislation. I think some 
clarity on that cannot be unduly harmful given all of the ink 
that has been spilled on whether the standard should be the 
same or different.
    Chairman Lee. Right, but you are not opposing the part of 
the bill that proposed a different standard.
    Mr. Jacobson. Right.
    Chairman Lee. What about the procedures?
    Mr. Jacobson. I think as U.S. consumers we are fortunate 
that the FTC has the option to pursue Part 3 administrative 
litigation when it----
    Chairman Lee. Why not give that to the DOJ?
    Mr. Jacobson. DOJ absolutely has that option. It is a 
current policy for DOJ to consolidate the preliminary 
injunction and merits trial. It is not written in a statute 
such as the SMARTER Act.
    Chairman Lee. They do not have administrative proceedings 
though.
    Mr. Jacobson. No, they do not, and that was--I mean, we are 
getting into, you know, do we really want two antitrust 
agencies? For the reasons stated in my separate statement for 
the Antitrust Modernization Commission, I believe that 
plurality of antitrust enforcement is critical to the 
administration of the antitrust laws.
    Yes, the DOJ is not an administrative agency. The FTC is an 
administrative agency. That has been true since 1914.
    I do want to correct what I think may be a misunderstanding 
on what the Pitofsky rule is. The Pitofsky rule was not that we 
will never commence a Part 3. The Pitofsky rule, which is 
codified and is cited in my statement, has a five-factor test 
to determine whether administrative cases will proceed. Really 
it boils down to was the district court off the deep end. I do 
think when the district court goes off the deep end--and there 
are instances like that--the taking of Part 3 is good for 
American consumers.
    Chairman Lee. What if the Pitofsky rule disappeared? What 
if they dropped it? What if they abandoned it? Would that 
affect your analysis?
    Mr. Jacobson. I do not think they will, but it would put 
them in the same sort of discretionary bucket that the DOJ is 
on whether to do a permanent at the same time as a preliminary 
injunction. As a matter of policy, I firmly support the 
Pitofsky rule, and I would be very disappointed if it were to 
be changed. I think the Inova situation was an outlier, as I 
say in my statement, that this was attributable in part to the 
very strong personality of an excellent Federal Trade 
Commissioner, Republican Commissioner, Tom Rosch.
    Chairman Lee. Right, Okay. The fact that it is an outlier 
does not do anything for me. I mean, the fact that it is an 
outlier still exists, and the fact that it is an outlier, the 
fact that those outliers can arise as a result of the fact that 
we have got two different systems, that matters, doesn't it?
    Mr. Jacobson. I think it matters in a way that we should 
support not oppose. I think----
    Chairman Lee. Okay. You would not disagree with Ms. Garza's 
conclusion that this undoubtedly affects parties, it affects 
the behavior of parties to----
    Mr. Jacobson. I completely disagree with that. It has 
absolutely not been my experience. When you are trying to get a 
deal through the agency, you are focused on, ``Am I going to 
get a preliminary injunction or not?'' You are not focused on 
the later possibility of a permanent injunction trial with DOJ 
or a Part 3 with the FTC. It absolutely plays no role in the 
analysis.
    Chairman Lee. I want to give Ms. Garza a chance to respond 
to that point, but before I do that, I want to make sure I 
understand your answer to my question. My most fundamental 
question is: What is the--the policy justification for 
subjecting one industry to one set of procedures and another to 
another set of procedures, how do we justify that? You seem to 
be saying that the FTC's--the procedures available to the FTC 
are good, are better.
    Mr. Jacobson. No; they are different. I think the fact that 
they are different is a plus for the American consumer.
    Chairman Lee. If it is a plus, why not make the same--why 
not create a universe in which we either have two FTCs or we 
somehow give DOJ the ability to conduct administrative 
proceedings, administration litigation?
    Mr. Jacobson. I would oppose that because of my strong 
belief in the plurality of antitrust enforcement, 
particularly----
    Chairman Lee. Right, but that is my idea of having two 
FTCs. Let us have another one called the ``Federal Antitrust 
Bureau.'' Let us just pretend DOJ does not exist here for a 
second. We have two separate ones. Would you give that other 
entity these same procedures? Because your idea behind the 
plurality of antitrust enforcement agencies, that is the--you 
do not want to put all your eggs in one basket. Isn't that----
    Mr. Jacobson. Yes, and you want--you know, sometimes there 
is a liberal Democrat who appoints a very interventionist 
Assistant Attorney General. When we have the Federal Trade 
Commission, we have no more than three from one party. We have 
a bipartisan agency. I strongly support that.
    Would I prefer two FTCs, two different FTCs, as opposed to 
today's system? No. I think the system we have today with the 
DOJ and the FTC, they have both done remarkable things over a 
long period of time. I think it has worked fantastically well, 
and I would not tinker with it.
    Chairman Lee. I want to make clear that I am not saying 
that I am opposed to differences in every circumstance. What I 
am saying is that here the reason for opposition to this 
legislation does not seem to make sense to me, and I am 
struggling with the ability to understand why that opposition 
exists.
    Ms. Garza, why don't we hear from you and have you respond 
to Mr. Jacobson's assessment that it does not affect the 
behavior--the differences in the two procedures does not affect 
the behavior of the parties.
    Ms. Garza. I have two points. It does if you are a buyer. 
Okay? If you are buying a business, if you are the acquirer, 
and the issue is, well, after--I could go through the 
investigation, and then I can go to court, and then I can win 
on a preliminary injunction. Then the agency, if it thinks the 
court was off the deep end or just simply disagrees with the 
court's decision, can commence an administrative proceeding 
that ties me up even after I close with the object of undoing 
my transaction. How could that not affect the acquirer? It does 
not make any sense to me, and it is not what I have experienced 
over 34 years of practice.
    The other thing I would say, to my ears, to say that the 
reason that you need to preserve the right to go into Part 3 
proceedings after an injunction has been denied is because the 
court may have gone off the deep end or because the court may 
have gotten it wrong is the problem. To me, to my ears, that is 
the problem. That is saying basically if the FTC does not like 
what happened in court, it can go around that and it can use 
its administrative proceeding, which is to me why businesses 
perceive it as being unfair. I do not mean to say that I think 
that the FTC is unfair. I do not mean to impugn any of the work 
that Chairwoman Ramirez and everyone does. That is absolutely 
seen as a fairness issue, because we have a system where you 
have to go to court, you make your best case, you win or you 
lose, you have your appeal. What they are asking for, what they 
are saying is, ``I do not really like that. I prefer to go 
through my administrative proceeding with my ALJ, which will 
then be appealed to the Commission that voted out the 
complaint.'' I am telling you, that sounds unfair to the 
business person that is before the Federal Trade Commission.
    Chairman Lee. Yes, among other things, it seemed to create 
the very real possibility of a much more protracted process. 
How much longer on average might this process take if the 
transaction went to the FTC rather than to the DOJ?
    Ms. Garza. Some of my colleagues have done more of the 
statistical analysis, but the difference is, if I am at the DOJ 
and I have gone my 6-, 7-, 8-, maybe longer number of months of 
investigation, then I go to my--to the hearing, the 
consolidated hearing, which could take 3 or 4 more months, and 
then you get your decision, you appeal it or not. If you are at 
the Federal Trade Commission, you have more or less the same--
you have that 6-, 7-, 8-month investigation. Then you go to the 
preliminary injunction hearing, which might be 2, 2\1/2\, 3 
months. Then, again, there is the risk that, depending on how 
that hearing goes and if you lose--if the FTC loses the 
hearing, then it goes into Part 3. Your deal has closed, but it 
remains at risk for the duration of the Part 3 proceeding.
    Chairman Lee. Mr. Clanton, will the FTC be able--would the 
FTC still be able to develop effective merger policy through 
its own proceedings if the SMARTER Act becomes law? If Congress 
were to pass it, will the FTC still be able to develop 
effective merger policy?
    Mr. Clanton. Yes, and that is what they are doing today. 
You know, the cases that Chairwoman Ramirez cited in her 
statement talking about the development of the law are 
administrative cases that are not covered by the SMARTER Act. 
You know, that to me is part of the telling point about the 
lack of impact that this is going to have on the Commission's 
ability to develop law administratively. There are just a lot 
of decisions out there, merger and non-merger, where the 
Commission is developing law through the administrative 
process. That will continue. This is not going to harm that.
    Chairman Lee. Mr. Lipsky, in your testimony you note that 
quote, ``Antitrust practitioners have long perceived that the 
possibility of continued administrative litigation by the FTC 
following a court decision constitutes a significant 
disincentive for parties to invest resources in transaction 
planning and execution.'' Can you elaborate on that a little 
bit for us?
    Mr. Lipsky. Whenever a company is considering a major 
transaction, it is sometimes a life-changing event for the 
company or in any event is a very significant matter that can 
involve the expenditure of hundreds of millions or billions or 
many billions of dollars, can transform their lines of 
business, can alter their competitive strategy. This is the 
kind of decision that is often considered very, very carefully. 
You hire financial advisers, you hire an investment banker, you 
hire all kinds of specialists, consultants, to support what the 
management and the board of directors of the company are 
ultimately going to decide. A part of that--and sometimes an 
important part of that--will be the antitrust advice, and 
generally you are advising on two risks. One we refer to as 
``completion risk.'' What is the risk that we will be able to 
do this transaction more or less as envisioned at the end of 
the day? The other major risk is timing risk. Interest rates, 
market prices, especially nowadays, change very substantially 
in short periods of time. An economically and competitively 
wise decision on day one can be a very poor decision 6 months, 
8 months, 10 months, a year later.
    That is why I emphasize that we need to consider the fact 
that when you are talking about transactions that are generally 
held up by the legal apparatus, by the Hart-Scott-Rodino Act 
and so forth, the delay and expense is a particularly punishing 
risk for companies that are in the position of trying to do a 
transaction.
    I think--I thought I heard, considering all of the 
witnesses today, including Chairwoman Ramirez, I thought I 
heard kind of a consensus that if you are going to have an 
administrative litigation phase before the FTC, it is 
definitely going to be slower, and I think partly for that 
reason more expensive and sometimes substantially slow. That is 
why the 9-year proceeding in the Coke-Dr Pepper case and the 6-
year proceeding in the Donnelley-Meredith/Burda case did have 
such an impact and made such an impression on the bar, because 
if there was any serious risk of having a delay of that 
character because of the possibility of FTC administrative 
litigation, there are many, many transactions that either would 
not be considered or would not be seriously proposed.
    Chairman Lee. Particularly taking into account the timing 
risk.
    Mr. Lipsky. Absolutely.
    Chairman Lee. Mr. Jacobson, anything you want to respond to 
that we have just heard?
    Mr. Jacobson. The completion----
    Chairman Lee. Push your button, if you will.
    Mr. Jacobson. Sorry. This is my first time. The completion 
risk and the timing risk are identical. Remember, the deal can 
close if the preliminary injunction has been denied. The advice 
that is given is: Is this deal going to go through? Do I have 
to agree to a consent? That is all focused on the preliminary 
injunction stage. That is the completion risk.
    The timing risk, you know, once the PI is denied, the deal 
can close. Is--does that have an impact on the acquirer's plans 
for integration? It has not been my experience--in fact, I 
would argue the opposite, that if there is an administrative 
proceeding, the company is going to proceed more quickly to 
integrate the merged companies, in part because that makes 
divestiture more difficult. That is one of the reasons the 
Hart-Scott-Rodino Act was passed, to allow review before 
scrambling of the egg.
    I agree there is a completion risk and a timing risk in 
every deal. I just do not think it would be impacted by the 
statute at all.
    Chairman Lee. Notwithstanding the fact that there is an 
additional procedure that may take place that may----
    Mr. Jacobson. After closing.
    Chairman Lee. Okay. I want to thank all of you for being 
here today. This has been very enlightening, very helpful, and 
your testimony before the Committee is greatly appreciated.
    Senator Klobuchar was required to be in another Committee 
hearing and wanted to be here at the end, but had to go to that 
Committee. Regardless, we will keep the record open for 1 week 
in case we have anything else to supplement the record.
    Thank you very much. We will be adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:51 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
    [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]

                            A P P E N D I X

Miscellaneous Submissions:

 American Hospital Association, statement.........................   120
 Chamber of Commerce, letter of Support...........................   126
 ConsumersUnion Policy & Action from Consumer Reports.............   128
 Competitive Enterprise Institute, July 20, 2015..................   131
 Competitive Enterprise Institute, August 27, 2015................   150
 Federal Trade Commission, December 23, 2008......................   115
 Iain Murray -- Liquid Capital Was the First Killer App, August 
    17, 2015......................................................   140
 Iain Murray -- Minimum Wage, Maximum Damage, October 27, 2014....   149
 Iain Murray -- The Poor Need Affordable Energy, June 2, 2015.....   143
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