[Senate Hearing 114-851]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 114-851

                          DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS
                       IN YOUR SUITCASE? HOW DRUG
                       TRAFFICKERS ARE DECEIVING
                     SENIORS TO SMUGGLE CONTRABAND

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS


                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             WASHINGTON, DC

                               __________

                           FEBRUARY 10, 2016

                               __________

                           Serial No. 114-19

         Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Aging
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                              __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
48-285 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
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                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING
                   SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah                 CLAIRE McCASKILL, Missouri
MARK KIRK, Illinois                  BILL NELSON, Florida
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona                  ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
BOB CORKER, Tennessee                KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York
DEAN HELLER, Nevada                  RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
TOM COTTON, Arkansas                 JOE DONNELLY, Indiana
DAVID PERDUE, Georgia                ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts
THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          TIM KAINE, Virginia
BEN SASSE, Nebraska
                              ----------                              
               Priscilla Hanley, Majority Staff Director
                 Derron Parks, Minority Staff Director
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                                                                   Page

Opening Statement of Senator Susan M. Collins, Chairman..........     1
Opening Statement of Senator Claire McCaskill, Ranking Member....     2

                           PANEL OF WITNESSES

Andrew Martin, Son of Dresden, Victim............................     5
Daniel Seibert, Victim...........................................     7
Scott Brown, Acting Assistant Director of Investigative Programs, 
  Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Department of 
  Homeland Security..............................................     9
Jill Steinberg, Senior Counsel, Office of the Deputy Attorney 
  General, U.S. Department of Justice............................    10

                                APPENDIX
                      Prepared Witness Statements

Andrew Martin, Son of Dresden, Victim............................    37
Daniel Seibert, Victim, (by video - no written testimony)........    --
Scott Brown, Acting Assistant Director of Investigative Programs, 
  Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Department of 
  Homeland Security..............................................    41
Jill Steinberg, Senior Counsel, Office of the Deputy Attorney 
  General, U.S. Department of Justice............................    55

 
                          DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS
                       IN YOUR SUITCASE? HOW DRUG
                       TRAFFICKERS ARE DECEIVING
                     SENIORS TO SMUGGLE CONTRABAND

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 2016

                                       U.S. Senate,
                                Special Committee on Aging,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:28 p.m., Room 
562, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Susan M. Collins, 
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Collins, Flake, Heller, Cotton, Tillis, 
McCaskill, Casey, Gillibrand, Blumenthal, Donnelly, and Kaine.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
                   SUSAN M. COLLINS, CHAIRMAN

    The Chairman. The Committee will come to order. Good 
afternoon.
    One of the top priorities of this Committee is to wage the 
battle against criminals who are constantly trying to swindle 
American seniors out of their hard-earned savings. These 
scammers are endlessly inventive. Last year alone, our 
committee's fraud hotline received 1,100 calls on more than 30 
different scams from victims located in every State. At the top 
of the list was the IRS impersonation scam, followed by the 
Jamaican lottery, deceptive robocalls, computer tech support 
fraud, identity theft, grandparent scams. The list goes on and 
on.
    Regrettably, today, we add to that list a new scam brought 
to our attention by Federal law enforcement officials and one 
of my constituents, and this one is particularly pernicious. As 
we will learn from our witnesses, international criminal 
cartels have begun to use unsuspecting American seniors as 
mules to smuggle narcotics across international borders. 
Tragically, at least 145 victims have been arrested by foreign 
governments as a result of this scam and approximately 30 of 
them remain incarcerated overseas.
    Typically, the criminal organizations behind this intricate 
scheme draw seniors into a web of deceit using what I call a 
predicate scam like the romance scam, in which a con artist 
develops a personal relationship, usually online, with an 
unsuspecting senior. Once the seniors are ensnared, the 
criminals then deceive them into smuggling drugs by asking them 
to travel overseas, where they are given packages with unknown 
contents to carry across international borders. The scammers 
give reasons that appear plausible to many seniors.
    Typically, the criminals pick up the tab for the seniors' 
travel expenses. That is one way that they convince them that 
they are legitimate.
    The criminals also make the international travel 
arrangements for their victims, which is another key to how 
this scam works. Instead of sending the senior on a direct 
flight from the United States to his or her destination, the 
criminals create a complicated itinerary that requires the 
senior to stop somewhere overseas, often for days at a time. 
During this waylay, the seniors are told that it is important 
that they carry a package or an extra suitcase with them on the 
next leg of their journey. Unbeknownst to the senior, that 
package or suitcase he or she has been asked to carry has drugs 
carefully hidden inside. Even if the senior were to look 
inside, he or she is unlikely to notice anything unusual.
    Then, as the seniors try to clear customs overseas, 
disaster strikes. Officers uncover the contraband and arrest 
them on charges of drug trafficking. Instead of reaching their 
destination and finally getting to greet the lover that they 
met online, or recover the funds promised them by Nigerian 
bankers, they find themselves imprisoned in a foreign jail and 
thousands of miles away from home.
    The criminals who set this chain of events in motion are 
cruel, but also very, very clever. I cannot emphasize enough 
how important it is that seniors and their families become 
aware of their techniques and take actions to protect 
themselves and their loved ones from these heartless criminals. 
We also need a vigorous and determined effort by law 
enforcement, particularly at the Federal level, not an easy 
task given the challenges posed by international boundaries.
    I look forward to learning more about this terrible new 
fraud from our witnesses and what can be done to combat it. 
Thank you.
    Senator McCaskill.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
                CLAIRE McCASKILL, RANKING MEMBER

    Senator McCaskill. Good afternoon, and thank you, Chairman 
Collins. This Committee has done tremendous work under your 
leadership to aggressively fight fraud and scams. Later this 
week, the Committee will be publishing its Fraud Book, 
reporting the top scams reported to our fraud hotline. I hope 
that the Fraud Book can serve as a resource for seniors on 
scams to watch out for and organizations to contact should they 
be concerned that they are being scammed.
    The scams discussed in the Fraud Book and the scams we have 
focused on in several committee hearings are really as old as 
time. Most of these scams are, at their core, confidence scams. 
What has changed is the use of technology, international 
boundaries, and even changed tactics in response to our own 
consumer education. Criminals today have a much easier time 
covering their tracks and changing their strategies, and the 
evolving nature of these scams highlights how adaptable they 
are.
    The drug trafficking scam has more serious consequences 
than just a loss of resources, especially in countries where 
intent is not required to be convicted of a crime. Obviously, 
for a senior to be placed in prison and deprived of his liberty 
is an ultimate consequence to an old fashioned confidence scam.
    Staying ahead of the curve is very challenging. Take, for 
example, the IRS impersonation scam, the subject of a committee 
hearing last year and still a real problem to seniors 
nationwide. These calls are being received at increasing rates 
due to a fraudsters' ability to use robocall technology. Even 
though their success rate per call has decreased, the 
fraudsters are still reaching many more people, and because 
many of these calls are coming from overseas and using VOIP, 
Voice Over Internet Protocol, they are very difficult to trace.
    Now, the scammers are twisting the tips provided by the 
government acknowledging these red flags in their conversations 
and using them to prove their legitimacy. For instance, tips 
publicized stated the IRS would never contact you first by 
phone and there would always be an initial contact via mail. To 
gain the confidence of our seniors who are aware of this tip, 
scammers have now changed their script to convince victims that 
they have been sending them letters regarding their amount 
owed, but there was no response. Therefore, they are taking 
immediate action to collect those funds. The IRS impersonation 
scheme shows just how far fraudsters will go to gain the 
confidence of our Nation's seniors, just to get a piece of 
their hard-earned retirement funds.
    I am really pleased that the Department of Justice has 
joined us today. I do not want to discount the role that 
consumer education plays in making seniors aware of the latest 
evolutions of these scams, but that by itself is just simply 
not enough. Many seniors who fall victim to these scams have 
diminished mental capacity and are not able to distinguish a 
real offer from a scam.
    This drug mule scam, for instance, could appear real to 
some seniors, especially when they board a plan and fly 
overseas without having to pay for it. The plane ticket adds an 
air of legitimacy to what would otherwise be a very shady 
operation.
    The only way we will ever really put a dent into this 
problem is by putting some of these criminals behind bars. I am 
curious to hear from DOJ about how they are going about 
prosecuting these fraud cases, especially in cases that cross 
international borders.
    I would say as an aside that I used to tease my friends 
that were in the U.S. Attorney's Office when I was a State 
prosecutor, saying, I wish you guys would just take 911 calls 
for a month, because the Federal Government has this wonderful 
luxury that you get to decide what cases to take, and whatever 
you do not take rolls downhill to the State prosecutor. We 
always teased that they could find Federal jurisdiction when 
they wanted to, but they never had to.
    This is a case where a local prosecutor cannot go after 
these criminals. They are international, and that, I would 
submit for the record, is why we have Federal law enforcement, 
not to prosecute violent crime, not even to prosecute bank 
robberies, not to prosecute kidnapping, but to prosecute those 
crimes that State and local prosecutors simply cannot reach, 
and these crimes, these frauds, done from an international 
location, fall squarely in the lap of Federal law enforcement, 
and I, for one, am impatient with the excuse, well, they are 
just not big enough. I think these are affecting the quality of 
life for millions of seniors in this country and I believe it 
should be a much higher priority of the Department of Justice.
    We have spent a lot of time working on the Jamaican lottery 
scam here and now we have a good working relationship with the 
Jamaican government, but yet we still only extradited one 
person on the Jamaican lottery scam. Meanwhile, they are making 
rap songs about the Jamaican lottery, quote-unquote, ``heroes'' 
in Jamaica. They have become local people of fame and fortune.
    I appreciate all the work law enforcement is doing, and I 
understand that interjurisdictional task forces have been put 
together, but the time to start taking action is now. Thousands 
and thousands of people are being ripped off, and the idea that 
we are not catching many of the crooks has just emboldened 
criminals and copycats to target more and more seniors.
    I look forward to working with law enforcement to remove 
any obstacles that might be in their path toward prosecution. 
If there is anything that the U.S. Senate needs to do to make 
this easier for Federal law enforcement authorities, today is 
the day to let us know what that is.
    Thank you very much.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Now, we turn to our panel of witnesses. First, we will hear 
from Andrew Martin, who is from Henderson, Nevada, but formerly 
from the great State of Maine. Mr. Martin's father of Dresden, 
Maine, is a victim of the scam that our committee is focusing 
on today.
    After Mr. Martin's testimony, we will view a video of 
Daniel Seibert, an Arizona resident, and I would like to at 
this point yield to my colleague from Arizona, Senator Flake, 
whose staff has been extremely helpful in producing the video 
of his constituent's testimony.
    Senator Flake. Well, thank you. Thank you, Chairman 
Collins. I just want to thank you and the Committee and Ranking 
Member McCaskill for holding this hearing. It represents an 
important step in putting this new and very troublesome scam 
under a microscope.
    As I understand it, this is implicating individuals across 
the country, including, as the Chairman noted, the man from 
Arizona, Daniel Seibert, who we will hear from in just a 
minute. My office was able to work with the Committee and to 
make sure that his testimony was heard today.
    I want to also thank ICE for intercepting Mr. Seibert 
before his situation escalated, and I hope that the spotlight 
that is being put by the Committee on this subject will help in 
stopping others from being victimized in the future, and thank 
you, I look forward to hearing from the witnesses.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    We will then hear from Scott Brown. Mr. Brown is the Acting 
Assistant Director of Investigative Programs at the U.S. 
Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency, better known as 
ICE. As Senator Flake mentioned, he prevented his constituent 
from being truly further damaged by this scam.
    Finally, we will hear from Jill Steinberg, a Senior Counsel 
in the Office of the Deputy Attorney General at the Department 
of Justice.
    Thank you all for joining us. We are going to begin with 
Mr. Martin.

       STATEMENT OF ANDREW MARTIN, SON OF DRESDEN, VICTIM

    Mr. Martin. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member McCaskill, and 
distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to appear before you today to testify about my 
father's unwitting involvement in a romance scam which targets 
seniors to smuggle drugs.
    My father was arrested in Madrid last July, having nearly 
two kilograms of cocaine in his possession worth approximately 
$400,000. He had no idea that he was carrying drugs. He went to 
Peru thinking he was taking real eState documents to a woman in 
London whom he met and fell in love with online.
    The idea that my dad is now a convicted drug smuggler, 
sentenced last month to 6 years in prison, is surreal. My dad, 
a retired pastor, had no prior criminal history of any kind, 
not even a speeding ticket. He never drank, never smoked, never 
swore in his entire life. However, he did have his 
shortcomings. He was too trusting of people and overly 
gullible.
    Seven years ago, at age 70, my dad found himself single and 
lonely, so he moved in with my sister. Dad would go on Internet 
chat sites to pass the time. One day, Dad meets Joy, an 
attractive woman in her 30's who claimed to be from Nigeria but 
living in the U.K. Joy and Dad exchanged life stories and 
photos and they would spend hours chatting nearly every night. 
Dad quickly became infatuated with her. The true identity of 
Joy remains a mystery, but suffice to say, Joy and her 
associates destroyed my father's life.
    As a struggling artist, Joy claimed to be poor and hungry. 
Even though Dad's only income was a mere $1,000 per month that 
he got from Social Security, he would often forego paying my 
sister rent so that he could instead support Joy, which he did 
for 6 years. Joy gave him lots of attention, told him she loved 
him, and wanted to marry him 1 day.
    Joy told my dad that she inherited a large eState in South 
America from her wealthy father, who was murdered in Africa. 
The property was worth millions and she wanted to sell it, but 
the deed was in Peru. She was unable to get a visa to go 
herself, but if he would go and bring these real eState 
documents to her, they could have a very comfortable life 
together. Dad promised he would go for her if she could find a 
way to pay for his trip. Joy, allegedly not having any money 
either at the time, put the trip on hold.
    Last year, my father met and married a local woman. He 
tells Joy that he needs to end their relationship. Joy reminds 
Dad of his promise to help her with the real eState papers. She 
offers to pay Dad a significant amount of money if he would go 
to Peru and bring papers to her in London. Broke and wanting to 
recover the money he had sent Joy over the years, Dad decides 
to keep his promise. Joy tells Dad her family attorney would 
meet him with the papers at the airport in Lima. Dad was to 
rest up a night or two at the hotel and then fly to London, 
deliver the documents, get paid, and return home.
    Against his new wife's advice, Dad boards the plane to 
Peru. When Dad arrives in Lima, nobody is there to meet him. He 
calls Joy, learns the attorney was delayed, and is told to wait 
at the hotel for him. After a few days, Dad has no more money 
for the hotel and has not yet heard from the attorney, so Joy 
wires him some money via Western Union, informs him that the 
lawyer would be there soon, and requests him to continue 
waiting.
    After 10 days, the man finally shows up with two sealed 
packages that felt like books. He gives the books to Dad and a 
plane ticket to London. The man informs Dad the books were 
sealed for inspection, but if security wants to inspect them, 
it's okay to go ahead and allow them. This apparently satisfies 
my father, so he never looks at the contents.
    The following day, Dad places the packages in his carry-on 
bag and boards the plane to London. He has two stops to make, 
one in Madrid and then on to Dublin, where he was to spend 2 
days before continuing on to London. When he--upon arriving in 
Spain, airline staff meets my dad with a wheelchair to take him 
to his connecting gate. He is stopped by security, who see the 
books during X-ray exam of his carry-on. To my Dad's horror, 
they find cocaine.
    It takes a couple of weeks for me to learn that Dad has 
been arrested. A few weeks after that, Dad's new wife tells him 
that she wants a divorce. She had been getting frightening 
calls from men looking for my father and was forced to change 
her phone number.
    My wife Lisa and I flew to Spain last October to visit my 
father in prison. Dad was overwhelmed when he saw us and broke 
down in tears. He kept telling us how ashamed he was and how 
stupid he felt, having fallen for this scam. He honestly 
thought Joy was his friend and he trusted her. Joy was never 
pushy about the trip to Peru until my Dad announced that he was 
married. I guess at this point, the scammers felt that this was 
their last chance to use my father.
    Now, at age 77, Dad may very well spend the rest of his 
life in prison. He is in very poor health. He has proState and 
heart and back problems. He was supposed to have surgery on his 
back 2 weeks after the trip, which, of course, has not 
happened, leaving him in constant pain. He faints all the time 
and is being kept in the prison infirmary.
    When Lisa and I saw him, he looked frail and his mental 
capacity was in obvious decline. He seemed confused about 
different aspects of his ordeal. He just wants to come home and 
not die in prison.
    I will close with the last paragraph from the first letter 
my Dad wrote us in prison. Dad writes, ``I want to thank you 
both for not abandoning me here. What to do once released, if I 
do not die here, I have no idea, as I am now homeless again. 
How I miss my wife. I feel so terrible for all the pain I 
caused the woman I loved. I only wanted to provide her more 
than Social Security allowed, but never anything illegal. I 
trust you believe me. Love, Dad.''
    Thank you again for the opportunity to share my father's 
story with you. I will be happy to answer any questions.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Martin.
    I want to tell you how much it means to the Committee that 
you are willing to publicly share your father's story, because 
I believe it will really help others who have been targeted by 
these horrendously unscrupulous criminals. I guess all 
criminals are unscrupulous, but this is so heartless, and the 
idea that your father is in prison is just extraordinary to me. 
We look forward to questioning you and learning more.
    We are now going to turn to Senator Jeff Flake's 
constituent, and his name is Daniel Seibert, and he will tell 
his story.

              STATEMENT OF DANIEL SEIBERT, VICTIM

    [A video recording was played.]
    Mr. Seibert. My name is Daniel W. Seibert. I live in Green 
Valley, Arizona. I'm 79. It was 19--or, no, 2006, and that is 
about when I guess you will say I retired.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. Mr. Seibert, we learned from 
ICE that you recently took a trip that ended with Agent Small 
dropping you in the airport in Georgia. Could you tell us what 
led to you going on this trip in the first place?
    Mr. Seibert. It was a fun--I was supposed to have, and I 
did not know anything about what they wanted me to do until 
actually I talked to the agents there. What--what it turned out 
to be is, according to what they told me, is I was supposed to 
go to the U.K., pick up some kind of a package, from there go 
to Dubai, and then from Dubai I was supposed to go to Japan, 
but I did not think anything about it. I said, well, I have 
never been to Dubai, so I wanted to go. I have been in 76 
countries and Dubai is not one of them, so I said, well, I 
wanted to go.
    Well, then they stopped me and then they explained what was 
going on, and they treated me very good, respectfully. I mean, 
they knew I did not know what was going on, so----
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. How were you first contacted 
by this person who asked you to take the trip?
    Mr. Seibert. It was by e-mail, but it has been so long ago 
now, I do not have any of them e-mails left. I do not remember 
his name, even.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. What did he say in the e-mail 
that led to you going on the trip?
    Mr. Seibert. The only thing that I can remember is why I 
wanted to go, is because I wanted to go to Dubai, and I just 
wanted to take a vacation.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. Did he mention that you would 
get some unclaimed funds that you believed were owed to you?
    Mr. Seibert. Yes. Actually, the trip did not cost me a 
penny, because if I had to pay, I would not have went. The 
person that actually paid for the ticket, I do not even know 
his name anymore, to be honest with you.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. Once you agreed to go on the 
trip, did at any point the person tell you you would have to 
pick up a package?
    Mr. Seibert. Well, he called me on the phone, is what it 
was, and said I had to go to the U.K. to pick up a package 
which I was going to take with me all the way to Japan, and I 
asked him about, well, what is in the package. He said a thing, 
like, it is a thank you package I am supposed to give to some 
banker in Japan. In Japan, it is very customary you give people 
presents. Even if the--if you go to a bank and the banker 
treats you nice or whatever, you give the guy or the woman a 
present, and I assumed, well, that is what it is. It is the 
head guy of the bank and we were thanking him ahead of time, so 
it was just a thank you present.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. You had no reason to be 
suspicious about what was in the package?
    Mr. Seibert. No. None at all, really. I just assumed it was 
going to be a thank you present, which could have been anything 
from a wristwatch to a whatever. I mean, things like watches 
and things like that are a common gift in Japan.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. When the agent stopped you in 
the airport, did you know why he was stopping you?
    Mr. Seibert. I had no idea at all.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. The whole time you thought 
that you were going to go on this trip to be able to collect 
your funds, and that is why you went on this trip?
    Mr. Seibert. Yes, that is right.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. On another topic, you had 
said you had been contacted by other people about funds in 
banks.
    Mr. Seibert. Yes. Many of the Nigerian banks and the 
Federal Reserve Banks that are in the United States...
    [inaudible], and Senators now all of the sudden.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. You received e-mails from 
people impersonating Senators, but also from people 
impersonating other officials and heads of state?
    Mr. Seibert. This is from the Internal Revenue Service, and 
there are other people--uh--the United States Postal Service 
was the next one I had, and this one is from Federal Reserve 
Bank, the one in New Jersey, and I am not sure whether they are 
real or whether they are fake, because the first thing he 
wants, he wants $1,750, the guy in New Jersey.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. Have you sent money to any of 
those people who have contacted you?
    Mr. Seibert. Regretfully, the answer is yes.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. Do you remember how much 
money you have sent to them?
    Mr. Seibert. Over the last 6 years, I have probably sent 
about $150,000.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. Was that before or after you 
went on the trip?
    Mr. Seibert. I think I have sent them some since, not much, 
just a couple hundred dollars. I sent most of the money 
probably five and 6 years ago.
    Senator Flake's Staff Member. You still do get a lot of e-
mails asking you to send money to them?
    Mr. Seibert. I get about 400 e-mails a day. I would guess 
that 300 of them want money.
    [End of video recording.]
    The Chairman. Thank you. Senator Flake, I want to thank you 
again. Your staffer did a great job interviewing Mr. Seibert, 
and you can see what a horrible situation this is, but for 
ICE's intervention, he would have ended up smuggling drugs, I 
have no doubt about that, given that he had given away $150,000 
to scammers over the past 6 years, so with that, let me turn to 
Mr. Brown, who can give us a bigger picture of this scam, but 
also any comments you can make on this particular case and 
others would be helpful to us, and I want to publicly thank ICE 
for coming to us and letting us know about this scam so that we 
could publicize it and help prevent others from falling victim.

           STATEMENT OF SCOTT BROWN, ACTING ASSISTANT

        DIRECTOR OF INVESTIGATIVE PROGRAMS, IMMIGRATION

            AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT

                      OF HOMELAND SECURITY

    Mr. Brown. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member McCaskill, and 
distinguished members, on behalf of Secretary Johnson and 
Director Saldana, thank you for the opportunity to discuss 
ICE's efforts to investigate and thwart criminals who target 
the elderly with nefarious schemes that rob them of their 
dignity, their money, and potentially their liberty.
    Homeland Security Investigations, or HSI, is the 
investigative arm of ICE and conducts criminal investigations 
to protect the United States against terrorism and other 
criminal activity that threaten public safety and national 
security and to bring to justice those seeking to exploit our 
customs and immigration laws worldwide. In its investigative 
capacity, HSI enforces more than 400 Federal laws and 
regulations with jurisdiction over investigations of crimes 
with a nexus to the U.S. border.
    As you know, there are many fraud schemes, such as phony 
investment pitches and business opportunities. Such scams are 
growing increasingly sophisticated and international in scope 
and are able to victimize U.S. citizens throughout the country. 
Perpetrators victimize consumers of all ages, backgrounds, and 
income levels, but as you have seen, the elderly seem to be 
disproportionately targeted.
    Today, I want to bring to the attention of the Committee 
and the general public an emerging trend involving the movement 
of illicit contraband--drugs--by unsuspecting elderly citizens.
    Transnational criminal organizations, or TCOs, have long 
sought to recruit drug couriers who appear to be unsuspicious 
and present the best opportunity to successfully smuggle 
contraband across international borders. Using various avenues 
available on the Internet to gather information on potential 
victims, such as social media, cyberbegging, and fishing e-
mails, TCOs now tailor their inheritance, romance, and business 
opportunity scams to recruit the elderly to smuggle narcotics 
through commercial air travel.
    The unwitting couriers travel to numerous countries with 
airline tickets provided or funded by the TCOs, and these TCOs 
often change the itinerary at each leg of the journey in an 
effort to evade detection. These elaborate international 
schemes involve these couriers meeting with alleged business 
partners in numerous countries during a single trip. These 
business partners have the courier take a suitcase or a gift 
that appears innocent, but contains drugs, to the business 
partner they will meet at their next stop.
    The average age of the couriers identified encountered 
smuggling narcotics was approximately 59, and the oldest of 
these couriers was 87. The oldest unwitting individual HSI 
encountered during one of our investigations was 97 years old. 
HSI special agents were successful in convincing him to abandon 
his travel plans before he could become another victim.
    Through our joint targeting and investigative efforts, 
dubbed Operation Cocoon, HSI and U.S. Customs and Border 
Protection, working with our foreign counterparts, to date have 
led to the arrest of 15 facilitators affiliated with the 
transnational criminal organizations behind these schemes and 
the interdiction of a total of 272 kilograms of 
methamphetamine, 209 kilograms of cocaine, four kilograms of 
ecstasy, and 11 kilograms of heroin.
    As evidenced by the video testimony you just saw, whenever 
possible, HSI has worked to prevent potential elderly victims 
from departing the United States if we believe they may be 
unwittingly utilized to smuggle narcotics, as we did with Mr. 
Seibert.
    Unfortunately, there are instances when the recruited 
individuals are so engaged by the underlying scam used by the 
criminal organization they do not believe they are being duped. 
Often, these organizations warn their victims to not believe 
anyone who approaches them as law enforcement. HSI has warned 
elderly couriers concerning their potential role in this type 
of scheme, only to have the elderly victim continue with their 
travel and subsequently get intercepted in other countries with 
narcotics.
    This is why it is so important to raise the public's 
awareness of these types of fraud schemes. We need to be 
discussing these schemes with our loved ones, both young and 
old, and reiterating the adage, if it appears too good to be 
true, then it probably is.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you 
today. ICE looks forward to working with the Committee to raise 
awareness and to eliminate the opportunities for these 
criminals to prey upon our senior citizens. I would be happy to 
answer any questions that you have.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Brown, but for your 
agents intercepting Mr. Seibert, I have no doubt that his fate 
would have been similar to Mr. Martin's, and I appreciate your 
good work.
    Ms. Steinberg.

          STATEMENT OF JILL STEINBERG, SENIOR COUNSEL,

             OFFICE OF THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL,

                   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

    Ms. Steinberg. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member McCaskill, 
and distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to discuss the Department of Justice's efforts 
aimed at combating fraud against our Nation's seniors.
    There are numerous schemes to exploit the elderly for 
financial gain. With clever perpetrators and the advent of new 
technologies, many of these scams continue to evolve and 
challenge law enforcement. That said, across the Department, we 
are engaged on this issue and working hard to seek justice on 
behalf of elder victims.
    We take an all-of-Department approach to combat elder abuse 
and financial exploitation. That includes the investigation and 
prosecution of cases, outreach and education programs, funding 
relevant research, and providing services to victims.
    Starting first with enforcement efforts, as the Committee 
knows, many frauds targeting the elderly originate overseas. 
Combating such schemes requires close collaboration with our 
international partners. To this end, we are committed to 
expanding our engagement with law enforcement agencies in 
countries in which these frauds may originate.
    As a key component of these efforts, the Department co-
chairs the International Mass Marketing Fraud Working Group. 
This group includes other U.S. investigative and regulatory 
agencies and representatives from Australia, Belgium, Canada, 
the Netherlands, Nigeria, Norway, Spain, and the United 
Kingdom. The members of the group meet to improve intelligence 
sharing, disrupt mass marketing schemes, and increase the 
effectiveness of criminal and civil enforcement actions.
    Project JOLT reflects these successful partnerships. United 
States and Jamaican law enforcement have worked together to 
combat fraudulent lottery schemes preying on elderly citizens 
in this country. In 2015, the Department successfully 
extradited the first Jamaican citizen to be prosecuted in this 
country in connection with such a lottery scheme. He was 
convicted and sentenced to 46 months in prison. Since 2009, DOJ 
has prosecuted nearly 100 defendants linked to these schemes. 
The defendants who have been sentenced have been sentenced 
collectively to more than 125 years in prison.
    In addition to the Jamaican lottery fraud, another common 
telemarketing scheme involves the reported resale of time share 
interests. In one such case, the Department charged Peter 
Massimino in connection with a multiple-victim time share 
resale scam operating from Florida that led to the 
victimization of over 25,000 people and a total loss of $35 
million. He was sentenced to 87 months in prison.
    Just recently, the Department concluded its prosecution of 
Gilbert Freeman, also for a time share resale scheme, in which 
the majority of victims were elderly. Freeman defrauded more 
than 1,400 owners out of about $5 million. He was sentenced 
last week to 20 years in prison.
    The United States Attorney's Office are also working to 
combat mail-based financial exploitation. In May 2015, 
prosecutors in Florida brought charges in a widespread 
sweepstakes mail fraud scheme. In September, prosecutors in 
Long Island also brought charges in an alleged mail sweepstakes 
fraud scheme. These are but two examples of the type of cases 
pursued by the Department.
    Investment schemes also continue to be a problem. For 
example, in January 2015, two defendants in Florida were 
sentenced to 10 years in prison for their role in a scheme to 
defraud elderly investors out of $18 million. The defendants 
took money from the victims, purporting to invest them in CDs, 
but instead used the money to make payments to earlier 
investors and pocketing it for themselves to buy themselves 
things. The court ordered restitution of almost $10 million in 
that case.
    The Department also provides training to prosecutors on 
elder abuse and exploitation. For example, since 2013, the 
Department has trained State and local prosecutors through its 
National Institute on Prosecuting Elder Abuse, an intensive 4-
day training that covers the elements of bringing an elder 
abuse and exploitation case. The Department will enroll 
prosecutors from all 50 states by 2017, but prosecuting cases 
is only one component of a comprehensive strategy to combat 
elder abuse and exploitation. Preventing these crimes from 
happening at all is similarly a priority. Every year, the 
Department participates in the Rocky Mountain Fraud Summit in 
Denver. The summit consists of interactive presentations about 
investment frauds that target our communities, including 
seniors. The Department hosts similar outreach events across 
the country.
    Additionally, research is a critical component of a 
successful strategy to combat elder abuse and exploitation. 
Over the last 10 years, DOJ awarded over 20 grants amounting to 
over nine million that examined diverse elder mistreatment 
issues, including projects on financial exploitation of the 
elderly.
    In September 2014, the Department launched its Elder 
Justice website, which has been accessed more than a half-a-
million times since its launch. The website is a one-stop shop 
for resources on all aspects of elder abuse and exploitation.
    The Department in Fiscal Year 2015 provided $1.5 million 
that will support approximately 60 AmeriCorps lawyers and 
paralegals who will provide legal assistance and support to 
victims of elder abuse and exploitation, and OVC's funding is 
also used by states to support services for elder victims of 
crime.
    The Department continues to work hard to combat the 
exploitation of our Nation's seniors. Thank you for the 
opportunity to discuss the Department's efforts and I look 
forward to answering any questions you may have.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Mr. Martin, I am truly saddened to learn that your father, 
at age 77, fears that he may spend the rest of his life in a 
jail overseas, far from his family, when he had no intention of 
breaking the law. That, to me, is very troubling, and while 
there are many attorneys on this panel, it came as a surprise 
to me that you did not have to prove intent, criminal intent, 
in many of these countries in order to be convicted. Is there 
any hope of his release? Are you pursuing other avenues to see 
if you might be able to get your father returned to the United 
States?
    Mr. Martin. Thank you, Chairman Collins. We are discussing 
with his attorney in Madrid about what can be done. Basically, 
the sentence is mandatory based on the quantity of cocaine that 
he had. There are no extenuating circumstances matter. He 
admitted to it at the time he was caught. There was no point in 
taking it to trial, so he actually pleaded out to get the 
lowest. It could have been anywhere from six to nine, and then 
he could get potentially 2 years forgiven on good behavior, but 
they can make a pardon to the king. They can try to get him 
expelled due to his age and health, and I guess the attorney is 
going to try to make some efforts to do that.
    The Chairman. Mr. Brown, can you give us a sense of the 
magnitude of this scheme, the numbers, for example, of people, 
American seniors, who are imprisoned overseas. Are there cases 
that you are aware of where the couriers made it to the 
destination without being intercepted?
    Mr. Brown. This is a huge problem. Since October 2013, over 
144 individuals that we are aware of have been intercepted 
transporting narcotics, identified through the targeting 
efforts of Customs and Border Protection and our HSI agents at 
the National Targeting Center. Eighty-three of those were 
United States citizens. Thirty of those United States citizens 
remain in prison, but it is--the magnifold is worse than that--
the magnitude is worse than that. The officers, the Customs and 
Border Protection officers and the HSI agents working on this 
project are some of the best you could ever meet, are as 
shocked and appalled at the heinousness of this crime as 
everyone else, but the targeting parameters take effort to 
build.
    We were not aware of Mr. Martin's case until we received 
that information via the tip line maintained by this Committee, 
and I thank you for that, so you know, of the 144, those are 
the 144 that we were able to identify. There is certainly a 
very good pool out there, like, unfortunately, Mr. Martin, that 
we were not able to identify and have not been able to link to 
Cocoon.
    As I said, 30 persons, 30 United States citizens, to the 
best of our ability to track that, remain in jail overseas. 
Sometimes it is a very difficult number to track. Some 
countries have very strict disclosure laws on their criminal 
proceedings, so largely we are just tracking that by return 
travel to the U.S. If we cannot see return travel to the U.S., 
there is an assumption that they are still in custody, but we 
could have some that have returned to the U.S. that still have 
charges pending overseas. They have just been allowed to come 
home while those charges are pending.
    The Chairman. Thank you. I can see why international 
criminals would want to use an elderly person. When Mr. Martin 
described his father being picked up in a wheelchair, that is 
not your average--that is not your image of a drug courier.
    Ms. Steinberg, I have very little time left, but I have to 
say that you described a whole host of schemes, but you did not 
touch on the one that this hearing is focused on, so what 
specifically is the Department of Justice doing to combat this 
heinous new scam?
    Ms. Steinberg. Thank you, Chairman Collins, for that 
question. We actually became aware of the operation fairly 
recently, in the context of this hearing, actually, and this is 
an HSI operation. Our understanding from speaking to them is 
that DOJ has been supportive, when asked to support their 
efforts, for example, in terms of process and search warrants 
and things like that.
    We do not believe that a case has actually been presented 
yet for prosecution, but as you know, the abuse of vulnerable 
populations, including the elderly, is a strategic priority of 
the Department, and if and when these cases are prosecuted, we 
will look at--presented for prosecution, more accurately, we 
will take them very seriously and look at the facts and the 
evidence and move on from there.
    The Chairman. Senator McCaskill.
    Senator McCaskill. You think we still have 30 victims in 
prison in other countries?
    Mr. Brown. Yes. I would give a very important caveat on 
that. I cannot affirmatively 100 percent attest that all 30 of 
those people did not have some knowledge and are 100 percent 
true victims.
    Senator McCaskill. Well, do we have an obligation to find 
that out? I mean, we have a whole host of victims' 
organizations in the Department of Justice that are funded 
extensively. Are the victims' organizations reaching out to 
these 30 people to try to determine--are we investigating 
whether or not these 30 people are, in fact--because if we can 
confirm that they are victims, then we have a moral obligation 
as a country to get them out of there.
    Is the Justice Department intervening with the countries, 
asking for pardons, asking for--you know, is the State 
Department involved? What we do need to do to get Mr. Martin's 
father out of prison, for Christ's sake? This is ridiculous. He 
is a victim. He is not a criminal.
    Mr. Brown. One of the things that we are doing in HSI is 
where there is exculpatory information, we are making sure that 
is shared.
    Senator McCaskill. With who?
    Mr. Brown. With the government that is prosecuting, with 
our law enforcement counterparts through our attache offices.
    Senator McCaskill. Is the State Department involved?
    Mr. Brown. The State Department is involved, but State 
Department--and I cannot speak for them--generally does not 
interject themselves into foreign legal processes in terms of 
guilt or innocence.
    Senator McCaskill. If we know they are a victim, this is a 
little different. I know we do not get involved--I mean, I get 
it, believe me. We cannot get involved when an American citizen 
is accused of a crime in a foreign country, just as we would 
not want them to get involved in our processes, but if we know 
they are a victim--and I think we have an obligation to figure 
out if they are victims. I certainly do not think anybody is 
going to argue--I do not think you would argue, Ms. Steinberg, 
that Mr. Martin's father is a victim, correct?
    Ms. Steinberg. I--this one, I have no basis to conclude 
that he is anything but a victim. Obviously, I am operating on 
the information that I have been given, but I will say that, 
again, at this point, we have not been presented any cases in 
terms of evaluating them for prosecution, so we are operating 
on fairly limited----
    Senator McCaskill. Yes, but we are not asking you to get 
involved in prosecution. We are asking you to advocate for a 
victim. They have been prosecuted by another prosecutor, but 
they are still American citizens. I would really like to see 
some answer from your bosses, from Secretary Johnson and 
Attorney General Lynch, about what obligation do we have when 
we know someone has been victimized. Just because they are 
located in a different country does not remove the status of a 
victim, and it seems to me we need to do more.
    Ms. Steinberg, can you tell me how many prosecutions we 
have had of criminals in the last 5 years that have been 
engaged in the various scams that we have talked about today? 
What is the total number that has been prosecuted by the 
Federal Government?
    Ms. Steinberg. I actually cannot give you a number. I 
apologize for that. I do not come here with a number of every 
prosecution that involves these particular scams that involve 
the elderly.
    Senator McCaskill. Would you mind compiling that for us?
    Ms. Steinberg. I can take that back and see if that is 
possible.
    Senator McCaskill. Yes, I know it is possible, because you 
told us there were 100 on Jamaica, so I think anecdotally does 
not help us, you know, two in New Jersey and two down in 
Florida. I think we need to get a sense of how many--and I 
would particularly be interested in how many people have been 
extradited in connection with those crimes, because we all know 
the reason we need you so badly here is that you are the only 
one that has the reach. You are the only one that can go there, 
and I need to know how many times you have gone.
    If possible, if you would get back to us on the number of 
cases that have been presented, the number of cases that have 
been filed, the number of cases that have been extradited, and 
I am really interested in the ones that you have filed, how 
many were guilty pleas and how many were trials, because in my 
experience, the vast majority of cases that are indicted by the 
Federal Government are pleas, so I think it is, in some ways, 
to say you have done a hundred cases of a certain type since 
2009, that is about 14 a year. You have literally hundreds of 
U.S. Attorneys Offices around the country, and the vast 
majority of those cases, I guarantee you, were a plea.
    I want to get a sense of the amount of resources that is 
really being given to this issue, because I--we have so many 
witnesses that come here. This is the first time we have had a 
chance to talk to somebody from Justice. We have had a number 
of these hearings and the local law enforcement that are trying 
to help these people in their local communities, especially on 
the IRS impersonation scam, they say they call the Department 
of Justice and no one is home, so I want to figure out what the 
truth is here.
    Do we really have the resources necessary at Justice to 
handle this problem? And if it is not getting handled, why not, 
and what can we do to help you get it handled.
    Ms. Steinberg. All right.
    Senator McCaskill. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam 
Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator Flake.
    Senator Flake. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks for the 
testimony.
    Mr. Brown, just given Mr. Seibert's testimony about how he 
had been contacted, and is still being contacted, I guess, some 
400 e-mails a day now because he responded and has put over 
quite a bit of money, let me just read a little bit of one of 
the e-mails that he received that was ostensibly from my 
office, from an individual who is actually on my staff. 
Obviously, it was not from him, but they have names, and they 
encouraged him to send a check to Post Office--also telling him 
to stop listening or colluding with, and they name another U.S. 
Senator, because they bilked him out of $900 before, 
supposedly, but to keep with us and we will get you money.
    It is a very troubling thing when some of these people are 
getting letters ostensibly from our offices to somehow lend 
legitimacy to some of these scams. How often is that the case, 
and what other methods are being used to try to lend legitimacy 
to what they are doing?
    Mr. Brown. One of the most tragic things we see is that 
once a person is victimized once, once the organizations 
recognize they can get their hooks into them, it is next to 
impossible to get yourself off of that hook. Now, there are 
proactive steps persons can take. They can change their e-mail 
address. They can change their phone number, but frankly, they 
maintain lists of victims and sell those lists, and the more 
that has been scammed out of a victim, the more that victim is 
worth to the next scammer, knowing they can likely replicate 
that success.
    You know, as you heard, we actually intercepted Mr. Seibert 
in Atlanta after he had phoned from Tucson to Atlanta starting 
his journey. When he got back to Arizona, our agents in Tucson 
met with him and were shocked to hear that he was actually 
going to go from their office, where he met with them, to send 
money to one of these scammers, so again, we cautioned him at 
that time.
    Again, the challenge is, for us, is, you know, we can 
educate. I cannot stop--I do not have a legal mechanism to stop 
a United States citizen from traveling if they choose to. I do 
not have a lawful mechanism to stop a United States citizen 
from sending money if they choose to.
    One of the things that we have done in terms of outreach is 
we have worked with the banks, with the money service 
businesses. We have provided them with what we would call red 
flag indicators, and a lot of the money service businesses, in 
particular, who were frequently used in these scams, take it 
upon themselves--because, again, they have an authority as a 
private business that I do not have as a law enforcement 
officer--to block those transactions to try to stop people from 
losing money.
    Senator Flake. In this individual case--I do not want you 
to give away any methods or whatever in terms of targeting the 
scammers--but what tipped you off in Mr. Seibert's case and led 
you to go to the airport?
    Mr. Brown. I am going to be very careful about how I talk 
about our targeting. Thank you recognizing that.
    Senator Flake. Please do.
    Mr. Brown. Again, this project, again, to give U.S. Customs 
and Border Protection their due credit, started with them. 
Secretary Johnson has been committed that we will put full 
Department resources to significant problems, and this 
certainly is a significant problem, so that is what we have 
married our HSI agents up with CBP.
    They build the targeting off a number of factors--travel 
patterns, methods of purchase of airfare, and a whole bunch of 
other things that I would be happy to provide to you in a 
closed setting.
    One of the things that is very important is in bringing 
that investigative piece into this, is as we meet with a Mr. 
Seibert, as we, you know, either as victims or potential 
victims give us the e-mails they receive or as they recount 
their phone calls, where we work with the Department of Justice 
and get search warrants, we take that evidence, which also has 
some intelligence value. We work back with CBP to help them 
further expand that targeting platform so that, hopefully, in 
the future, we will not have Mr. Martin getting through where 
the possibility exists we could potentially stop him from 
traveling.
    Senator Flake. All right. Thank you.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator Kaine.
    Senator Kaine. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to all of 
the witnesses.
    Mr. Martin, I want to ask you a question. In your 
testimony, you indicated, I think, that your Dad had been in 
prison a while before you found out. How did that--did they--I 
am just curious about that. Did they not let him reach out? Was 
he so kind of traumatized by the experience that he was not 
sure what to do? I found that kind of grabbed me as you were 
talking.
    Mr. Martin. Yes, Senator. Basically, the way it happened 
was when he got apprehended, obviously, the State Department 
was notified and they notified his wife, who lives in Maine. I 
am out in Nevada----
    Senator Kaine. I see.
    Mr. Martin [continuing]. and he had just recently married 
her. I did not even know here.
    Senator Kaine. Mm-hmm.
    Mr. Martin. I mean, I knew of her, but did not really know 
her.
    Senator Kaine. Yes.
    Mr. Martin. I am trying to remember if she told us or--I 
think she might have told us----
    Senator Kaine. Mm-hmm.
    Mr. Martin [continuing]. or my sister, and then the person 
at the embassy, the State Department actually e-mailed me 
because his wife did not want anything more to do with it.
    Senator Kaine. Yes.
    Mr. Martin. She e-mailed me and said, I understand that 
maybe you can be the one to, like, work with.
    Senator Kaine. That must have been the most stunning call 
you ever got in your life----
    Mr. Martin. Yes.
    Senator Kaine [continuing]. that your father is in prison 
in Spain for this.
    Mr. Martin. He had been involved in other minor, you know--
--
    Senator Kaine. Yes.
    Mr. Martin [continuing]. situations where he had been 
ripped off in the past----
    Senator Kaine. Mm-hmm.
    Mr. Martin [continuing]. I was not totally shocked, but 
obviously, it still a pretty incredible story.
    Senator Kaine. His wife was getting at least some kind of 
threatening calls because of some of this----
    Mr. Martin. Absolutely.
    Senator Kaine [continuing]. that was making her very 
nervous.
    Mr. Martin. Absolutely, and a couple people went to visit 
my sister while he was living there--he was not home at the 
time--looking for him, various things, so----
    Senator Kaine. Very troubling.
    Well, I want to ask, now, to Mr. Brown and Ms. Steinberg on 
this question. I would think--I was never a prosecutor, but I 
tried a lot of cases--if you had the person, you know, and you 
put this case on before a jury, I mean, the jury is going to 
want to throw the book at these crooks, but the problem is 
getting the person, and especially the challenges of any of 
this that originates overseas.
    Just talk a little bit about from the kind of investigation 
and prosecutorial standpoint the challenges of tracking down 
some of these folks when they are in other countries and the 
level of cooperation you need from the other countries to be 
able to do an investigation, get an extradition, get a 
successful prosecution.
    Mr. Brown. You are right. There are very significant 
challenges. We have had tremendous cooperations. We maintain 62 
international offices in 46 countries. We have robust 
international partnerships across law enforcement, but again, 
it is not like this organization--you know, you may not just 
have a Spain-based organization.
    Senator Kaine. Yes.
    Mr. Brown. It could be Spain. It could be Dubai. It could 
be Japan. It could be a network that runs across all three, so 
it is not just the U.S. coordinating with one entity. It is 
trying to get all those entities coordinating, and around 
various differences in their own laws, and sometimes the 
strongest venue for the prosecution is in one of those foreign 
venues.
    Senator Kaine. Right. Right.
    Mr. Brown. We have had some success. As I mentioned, we 
have arrested 15 persons truly aligned with the criminal 
organizations, all overseas. Some of that has been through 
coordinated undercover activity between the U.S. Government and 
overseas law enforcement.
    Senator Kaine. When you do those arrests, is the intention 
always to try to bring somebody back here for prosecution, or 
as you point out, in some other countries, the laws may even be 
better. Do you try to work with local authorities so the 
criminal cases are initiated in the jurisdictions where you 
arrest people?
    Mr. Brown. Wherever the best case is.
    Senator Kaine. Yes.
    Mr. Brown. Certainly, if we are generating a large part of 
the evidence overseas or if the evidence exists overseas, 
oftentimes, it is best to prosecute the case overseas.
    Senator Kaine. Mm-hmm, and can I just kind of hear the 
Justice Department's perspective on this same issue, about 
going after these crooks who are overseas and how challenging 
it is and what success you are having.
    Ms. Steinberg. Certainly, and the members of the Committee 
are right. I think several members have indicated that when 
there is an international component to these cases, it just 
adds just an extra layer of complexity, and what we have found 
is that the positive engagement of these foreign governments is 
very important. We do that, and, obviously, other agencies do 
that.
    I think the Project JOLT is a reflection of the positive 
sort of results of those kind of partnerships, whether it be a 
working group or it be through other means, that we work with 
these governments to--through MLATs to be getting evidence or 
through extradition requests, and you know, for example, 
Project JOLT, we have had our first extradition from Jamaica, 
and once you kind of get over that first hurdle, it gets 
easier, and so, that is just what we do. We just work the 
cases, and we will keep doing that.
    Senator Kaine. Thank you. I may want to ask a question just 
for the record about if there are countries with whom you would 
like to have stronger cooperation. I know colleagues on the 
Foreign Relations Committee would be interested in that. We 
have a lot of opportunities to interact with a lot of these 
countries and bring up issues of significance, and if there are 
countries in this kind of scam area where better cooperation 
would be helpful to either of your agencies, I think we would 
like to know them and maybe we could pursue that.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator Tillis.
    Senator Tillis. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    I tell you, the only positive thing I heard out of many of 
the testimony of the witnesses was the 20-year sentence that 
one of these thugs received. I hope that he or she serves every 
single day of it.
    Mr. Martin, can you tell me a little bit about the cost 
that has been incurred by your family in the process of trying 
to untangle this mess that your father is involved in, the 
actual economic cost and what you are going through right now.
    Mr. Martin. Yes, Senator. It is about 5,000 Euros is what 
his lawyer is charging, which is a very good price, because 
when I received the referrals from State Department, most of 
them wanted 10,000 retainer, and we found one that would do it 
for 5,000 spread over time, so we are just basically paying him 
what we can each month, so----
    Senator Tillis. Mr. Brown or Ms. Steinberg, are you all 
familiar--do you have any insights into the reverse, people 
being scammed in other countries coming to the United States, 
if there is any evidence of that and how well we are doing in 
dealing with the victims on this side of the ocean?
    Mr. Brown. We have not really seen evidence of that, and 
part of that is drug values. Unfortunately, drugs are not very 
expensive here as they are in many European and Asian 
countries. For example, you know, the street value of a 
kilogram of meth from the United States is about $66,000. That 
same street value figure for a kilogram of meth in Japan is 
well north of $400,000, so if you are going to go to this 
effort, they are trying to maximize their profit.
    Senator Tillis. Ms. Steinberg, are you aware of any 
instances like this or prosecution cases?
    Ms. Steinberg. No, sir.
    Senator Tillis. I guess that is a good thing.
    I have a--Mr. Brown, if you take a look at what law 
enforcement is trying to do now, say, with sexual predators, 
going out there and really baiting them into a condition where 
the first time they are interacting with somebody, they are 
interacting with law enforcement, are there any resources now 
being applied to those sorts of efforts, either for this scam 
or any number of scams where you can probably identify the kind 
of profile that they are looking at and have them have the 
unpleasant situation of it being a U.S. law enforcement agency?
    Mr. Brown. Yes, there are. There is a lot of logistical 
hurdles to that, you know, not knowing where the scammers exist 
kind of until you kind of get into the scam and have some time 
to crack the Internet spoofing that they are doing to figure 
out where they may actually be, and then having to figure out 
what are the laws in that country that apply makes that 
challenging, but yes, it has been done. Certainly, where we can 
identify people that are being scammed, we have had people give 
us access to their e-mails, where we have stepped in and 
assumed the role of the victim in an undercover capacity, but 
one of the challenges remains, it is a very under-reported 
crime. You know, people do not recognize they are getting 
scammed. Hence, it is a scam, so that opportunity is not always 
there as often as we would like it to be.
    Senator Tillis. A lot of this--we have dealt with several 
hearings where we are talking about people preying on seniors, 
and, really, a lot of this does come back down to education and 
trying to do our best to make sure, as you said, if it seems 
too good to be true, it probably is.
    What coordination have we had with other agencies that are, 
say, more likely to touch the seniors population, to use them 
as channels for education? I am thinking anytime we interact 
with anyone who is on Social Security, anyone who is on 
Medicare, or maybe Veterans Administration for seniors. Are 
there any coordinated efforts there to make sure that they are 
using those touchpoints to educate on this and any number of 
other potential risks that seniors are being exploited for?
    Mr. Brown. Absolutely. We try to do outreach through any 
and every available avenue. We have not specifically gone to 
Social Security, but I will actually take that as a good idea 
to followup on, but we do outreach through many of the things 
that Ms. Steinberg touched on, through some of those same 
interagency working groups, through some of those same 
conferences.
    Senator Tillis. It just seems like----
    Mr. Brown. What we also--I am sorry.
    Senator Tillis. I am sorry. Go ahead.
    Mr. Brown. We have also done proactively through our field 
offices, gone out and talked in nursing homes, to not just the 
people living there, but their family members, just to do 
anything we can to raise awareness.
    Senator Tillis. Well, you know, I hope that we can just 
figure out a way to at least let this be an instance where 
seniors can find some safe haven and calling a number, or 
forwarding an e-mail. When in doubt, send it here and let us 
see if we can identify patterns. It just seems like there are 
some natural connections, particularly, as I said, with Social 
Security and Medicare, where we may be able to, on a very cost 
effective basis, have a pretty broad reach out there beyond 
what you would do in the communities and on a recurring basis, 
because they continue to get more sophisticated. They continue 
to produce more dreadful outcomes, and everything we can do to 
increase education is going to be the single greatest way to 
improve the situation.
    Finally, I want to associate myself with everything Senator 
McCaskill said in terms of getting information and trying to 
get behind these 30. I think you said 145 have been affected by 
it. Forty-four were still in custody. Of those 44, 30 are U.S. 
citizens. Anything that we can do, and I think I probably speak 
for all the members, to move heaven and earth to try to get 
them back, if we are absolutely certain that they are innocent, 
then we certainly want to do that. It is horrible to think Mr. 
Martin and others are being held as victims. Thank you.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Thank you. Senator Casey.
    Senator Casey. Thanks very much.
    I want to thank the panel for your testimony and for your 
work on this. Mr. Martin, we appreciate you bringing a personal 
story that is hard to hear because of what happened to your 
father, and I know it is not easy to tell that story, so we 
appreciate it, but it does have the benefit of giving us a 
better understanding. It is not just conceptual or theoretical 
when you hear your story.
    I was going to direct, I think, maybe two questions to Mr. 
Brown in the time that I have. I have been in government a 
while. I have been here in Washington 9 years, and prior to 
that 10 years in the State government, and so, if you are 
around government a lot or somewhat connected to government 
service of one kind or another, we tend to think in terms of, 
you know, specific parts of budgets and different agencies, so 
it is very easy for us to kind of keep track of where things 
fit.
    Most folks out there, because they are not dealing with 
government on a regular basis, do not know where to turn 
sometimes to get information. It is probably true of every 
Senate office that back home, we get as many calls about some 
other level of government, and that is just the nature of the 
complexity of different levels of government, but maybe 
especially when someone is under siege or they have got--they 
are under attack, in a sense, because a scammer has put 
pressure on them and caused a lot of anxiety and pain, that is 
probably the worst time for them to try to determine where to 
start.
    I guess one thing I would ask, and this is based upon 
constituents that have asked us, or presented to us cases where 
a family member or someone they know has been affected, what is 
the best way for either, I guess, a family member or even an 
aging organization to report incidents like this? And I know 
you may have addressed this, but I just wanted to, by way of 
reiteration, if you have not.
    Mr. Brown. Thank you for giving me that opportunity, 
because I had not gotten a chance to say that yet. Again, the 
Committee itself maintains a tip line and the Committee 
coordinates very closely, referring cases, as appropriate, to 
ICE, but we also maintain our own tip line. The phone number is 
1-866-DHS-2ICE, or 1-866-347-2423. You can also go to 
www.ice.gov and report tips there. Our tip line is manned 24/7, 
you know, 365 days of the year. We have agents. We have 
intelligence analysts, and if it falls outside of our purview, 
we will get it to the right people that can do something with 
it.
    Senator Casey. Um-hmm. Can you repeat the number again, 
just----
    Mr. Brown. Yes. It is----
    Senator Casey [continuing]. just one more time.
    Mr. Brown. It is 1-866-347-2423, or 1-866-DHS-2ICE.
    Senator Casey. Great. We appreciate that, because that 
helps to give folks a place to go.
    I guess the other question I had with regard to ICE--maybe 
two more, and I will make the second one quick--has ICE been 
able to determine a root cause for the increase in these kinds 
of crimes, international crimes? Is there any predicate to it 
that would help us better combat it, or----
    Mr. Brown. I could speculate. I do not know that I have got 
a formal finding on that.
    Senator Casey. Okay.
    Mr. Brown. They are low overhead. If you have got a 
computer, if you have got a phone, you can commit these scams.
    Senator Casey. Right.
    Mr. Brown. Just, the abundance of information out there on 
people in the age of the Internet, be it social media, be it 
just pulling information out of obituaries, has made it much 
easier to sell a believable story.
    Senator Casey. The last question I will ask, and you can 
amplify it in a written response, if you want, is just one of 
the reasons we have hearings is to have you tell us what you 
need, or what you hope we would, by way of new legislation, new 
policy, new funding, whatever it is, I hope you either today or 
in written form tell us what you hope this Committee could do 
to better equip you to do your job.
    Mr. Brown. I will take that back to get you as complete an 
answer as I possibly can.
    Senator Casey. Great. Thanks very much.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Cotton.
    Senator Cotton. Thank you, and Mr. Martin, I also reviews 
your testimony. I want to associate myself with the remarks of 
the other Senators here, saying that it is both poignant and 
appalling. I cannot believe that U.S. citizens would face this 
kind of treatment abroad, particularly with countries that are 
allies.
    You certainly are blessed with a very capable and effective 
advocate in Senator Collins. What has been your experience with 
some of the agencies and departments of our Federal Government, 
say, the State Department, for instance, in this case?
    Mr. Martin. The individual I was dealing with with the 
State Department was excellent. I mean, we have an ongoing 
relationship with her because we wire money to him once a 
month. He needs money for--in prison to buy things. I cannot 
say enough about the job they have done for him, and you know, 
the government of Spain themselves, I really do not hold to 
blame. I mean, they have had an influx of drugs through their 
country and they have actually lowered the sentencing, from 
what I have been told, from what it used to be, but again, in 
his case, he did not go to trial. You know, he could not afford 
the trial, so he just pled out and got the least sentence that 
was available to him, and then the strategy is to just try to 
work with, you know, his attorney working with the government 
to see if they can get him expelled and sent back. He is not a 
threat to anybody, you know.
    Senator Cotton. Do you believe that the government of Spain 
is aware of all of the facts of the case and accepts those 
facts as true?
    Mr. Martin. I honestly do not know, Senator. I kind of 
doubt it, you know, that it is that big of a priority to them. 
He is one of many in their jails from all over the world.
    Senator Cotton. Ms. Steinberg, you have been a prosecutor. 
Do you think it is difficult to assemble the facts in a case 
like this to present that to a foreign government and say, yes, 
he seems--this gentleman seems to have been caught red handed, 
but here are the facts behind our conclusion that he was an 
innocent victim of a scam of a genuine drug trafficker?
    Ms. Steinberg. I think, in this situation, what you would 
go about doing is--it would not necessarily be a prosecutive 
type of endeavor, but it would be through sort of the 
relationships that we have, for example, the ICE attache that 
might be in country to communicate with their counterparts the 
information that we might have that would help influence the 
process.
    Again, I do not have a lot of information about these 
particular facts, but that is generally how we would go about 
exchanging that information, and that is how we make the most 
progress, as I indicated, when we have these sort of 
international cases, is sort of forging these positive 
relationships with our foreign counterparts and encouraging 
them to cooperate with us, and that goes both ways.
    Senator Cotton. Mr. Brown, what is your perspective on 
that?
    Mr. Brown. One of the things that we have done in our 
overall efforts under Operation Cocoon is not just shared 
investigative referrals. We have shared our targeting 
methodology with these countries, because I want to be very 
clear, this is not just a U.S. citizen issue. You know, this 
happens to people all over the world that are getting duped 
into this same thing. We just happened to stumble upon it 
first.
    A lot of these other countries, because of the level of 
information that we are sharing with them, have a very good 
understanding and are coming to a very good understanding that 
this scheme does exist. As I said, where we can get our hands 
on potentially exculpatory information, we are doing everything 
we can to get that into the right hands with the foreign 
government.
    Senator Cotton. Okay. I just find it astonishing that, 
given what I believe is the relatively straightforward 
investigative matters, that you would assemble the facts 
necessary to prove Mr. Martin's innocence and present it to, 
especially an allied country, that this matter would not have 
been resolved before now. I mean, our military and our 
intelligence services often stand as a proxy for other 
countries. Our nuclear umbrella extends deterrence to most 
countries in the world. We have an $18 trillion economy, the 
largest consumer economy in the world. We have a lot of 
leverage that, at least at a minister to minister level, we 
should be willing to exert.
    You have heard some of the Senators in this hearing give 
Mr. Brown the opportunity to State the phone number or website 
or what have you. I would like to State for the record that I 
hope any Arkansans, at least, and I would subject any 
Americans, feel that they can contact their Congressman and 
their Senator about this.
    In some cases when Americans have been held unjustly as 
hostages, people like Congressman Dale Kildee from Michigan or 
Congressman Ted Deutch from Florida have been dogged advocates 
for their release. As I know Senator Collins is a tireless 
advocate here, I certainly would do the same thing, and I 
venture that any member of this panel or the Senate would, as 
well, to help assemble the facts necessary and to assure it 
receives attention at the highest levels of the State 
Department, so unjustly detained, often victimized senior 
citizens can be released promptly and returned home, given all 
the massive leverage that the U.S. Government has with other 
governments around the world.
    Mr. Martin, I am very sorry about this, but I hope that all 
Americans who have family members who fall victim to scam know 
that they can contact their Senator or their Congressman to 
help expedite matters, as well.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much. Your point is so well 
taken, and we are going to work closely with ICE. We have a 
list of the countries where this appears to have occurred that 
I am going to be following up with Mr. Brown on.
    Senator Cotton. If I could just say, as well, for the 
record, to reference something that Senator Tillis said, I 
would hope the reverse would be true, as well----
    The Chairman. Right.
    Senator Cotton [continuing]. if a foreign citizen was in 
this case on American soil, that our allies' foreign ministers 
or prime ministers would feel they can contact the ministers at 
the highest level of our government and have this resolved 
expeditiously, because we certainly would not want to have in 
detention foreign citizens here who are innocent victims of a 
scam and that we would want to move matters along as promptly 
as possible outside the ordinary course of the criminal justice 
system, since this is as much a matter of diplomatic relations 
between friends and partners as it is traditional criminal 
justice.
    The Chairman. Exactly. Thank you.
    Senator Gillibrand.
    Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman and Madam 
Ranking Member. I am very grateful that you are holding this 
hearing. Obviously, these stories are very alarming and 
extremely upsetting.
    I would like to ask Mr. Brown, how do these scammers make 
the initial contact with potential victims, and what red flags 
can our seniors look out for, and what are some of the factors 
that make older adults more vulnerable for these schemes, and 
how are we trying to prevent this crime?
    Mr. Brown. I will kind of start at the reverse order. Older 
Americans tend to be more susceptible, oftentimes because they 
do not have the Internet savvy. They may not have--there may be 
a level of cognitive or memory impairment. Oftentimes, there is 
a challenge of just being lonely and it is an outlet. It is 
somebody to talk to. It is a friend when maybe you are not that 
mobile and you cannot get out and associate with friends.
    I forgot the other parts of your question.
    Senator Gillibrand. What can we do to prevent this?
    Mr. Brown. Again, I think, again, vigorous prosecutions 
where we can, be they in the U.S. or overseas, but education 
and making sure that where you think there is a scam, that law 
enforcement is getting that information so that we can build 
those successful cases that we can take to the prosecutors, get 
successful prosecutions that we can use to identify additional 
people before they potentially travel and get themselves in hot 
water.
    Senator Gillibrand. Ms. Steinberg.
    Ms. Steinberg. I agree that the early intervention and 
prevention efforts are essential, and that is a cornerstone of 
our Elder Justice Initiative. We across the country are doing 
outreach events through our U.S. Attorneys community, through 
our victim witness coordinators, and also through main Justice, 
as well, to talk about these different schemes and, you know, 
targeting it toward the communities that are most vulnerable, 
including our seniors.
    Speaking to the first part of your question, about what 
makes individuals more vulnerable or at risk, there is actually 
research in the field about it, and some of that is actually 
funded by the Department. It talks about issues of cognitive 
impairment, isolation, and then, ultimately, embarrassment that 
drives the desire to keep it secret and not disclose it, which 
then causes sort of this domino effect of additional 
victimization.
    Senator Gillibrand. How do you do that outreach? I have 
done roundtables and various educational events for seniors 
around my State. How does the DOJ actually interface with 
seniors? How do you meet with them? Where do you have these 
meetings? How often do they take place? How many have you had 
in New York?
    Ms. Steinberg. Well, I can give you a few examples from 
around the country. One of the examples is the Rocky Mountain 
Fraud Summit, which happens in Denver. It is something that is 
driven by the U.S. Attorney's Office there. They go into 
community, particularly senior living facilities, and they do 
interactive presentations and run scenarios, and that is also 
something that was done in Minnesota, as well, also driven out 
of the U.S. Attorney's Office.
    We also have an example in Tulsa, where they did outreach 
regarding an IRS impersonation scam. The U.S. Attorney released 
a press release and did some engagement on that particular scam 
to educate people, so that is sort of field-based outreach that 
happens day to day, just, you know, within the U.S. Attorneys' 
community, victim witness coordinators, and NAUSAs.
    We also--obviously, programming at main Justice, as well. A 
lot of that is run through our Elder Justice Initiative. We 
have a website that has been accessed over half-a-million 
times, and there are actually really incredible resources 
there. You can actually look at it by theme, the type of 
victimization, the type of scheme, and you also can get 
granularly into individual states, not just law enforcement, 
but also adult protective services and the other services that 
might be available that are not just law enforcement services, 
so we take both approaches, both in the field level and through 
main Justice.
    Senator Gillibrand. Well, I would certainly welcome that 
activity in my State if you have the opportunity to advocate 
for that, but it is needed and we have had a lot of--so many 
financial and fraud scams in our State, because we have a lot 
of retirees and they have a lot of resources and they are huge 
targets.
    Mr. Martin, have you been able to successfully engage the 
State Department?
    Mr. Martin. To do what?
    Senator Gillibrand. To help your Dad.
    Mr. Martin. They basically are saying that there is nothing 
they can do at this point. You know, he is in their criminal 
justice system. He has been sentenced and I do not think they 
are doing anything.
    Senator Gillibrand. I think that is outrageous, and I know 
many people on this panel will feel the same way. We will look 
forward to engaging the State Department on your behalf.
    Mr. Martin. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Gillibrand. Thank you for testifying.
    Mr. Martin. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Blumenthal.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank 
you for having this hearing.
    As a former U.S. Attorney and also a State Attorney 
General, I join my colleagues in the outrage they have 
expressed and being appalled and astonished by evidently a 
fairly common scam that involves victims from this country, 
seniors, being lured into drug transport schemes through 
various means that result in their being imprisoned abroad, so 
there are really two aspects to the relief that we want to 
provide. Number one, catch the scammers. Number two, seek the 
release of innocent victims who are not only financially 
potentially victims, but also in terms of their personal 
imprisonment.
    I join Senator Cotton in feeling that there ought to be 
remedies at the government to government level that would seek 
release of people who, under our own laws, would be acquitted 
because of lack of criminal intent. They may have been in 
possession of certain banned, illicit substances, but under our 
own laws, they would be clearly acquitted because there is no 
strict liability in this country under our criminal laws.
    If you can tell us, what are the countries where our 
citizens are in prison? If you have answered that question 
already, I apologize for asking you again, but maybe you can 
tell us.
    Mr. Brown. I do not have that list with me. Spain, 
obviously, where Mr. Martin is. New Zealand, although they have 
been very----
    Senator Blumenthal. I have read that. Mr. Soles, I think, 
is in----
    Mr. Brown. Mr. Soles is now out.
    Senator Blumenthal. He is out----
    Mr. Brown. Yes.
    Senator Blumenthal [continuing]. but he was in New Zealand.
    Mr. Brown. He was in--yes.
    Senator Blumenthal. Are there other Americans in New 
Zealand now in prison?
    Mr. Brown. Not to the best of my knowledge, but I would 
have to follow back on that. As I explained earlier, one of our 
challenges is, with privacy laws in some of these countries, we 
do not necessarily know where that person stands in the 
prosecution phase, so oftentimes, we are tracking whether a 
person is still in custody simply by have they----
    Senator Blumenthal. You mean, in those countries, trials 
are not open.
    Mr. Brown. In some of those countries, that is correct.
    Senator Blumenthal. Well, here is--I know you are--I do not 
want to put you on the spot today in this hearing, but I think 
one of the basic questions is, what countries, how many U.S. 
citizens, and whether we can do anything about it, right?
    Mr. Brown. Yes.
    Senator Blumenthal. The solution is not a habeas corpus 
petition in those countries filed by their attorneys. For them, 
habeas corpus is a non-remedy, presumably, so we might as well 
be filing a ham sandwich in those countries, and at the 
government to government level, we need to know what the 
governments are, what the countries are, so that, as Senator 
Cotton has suggested, whether it is ministerial or Presidential 
or whatever level, we need to free those Americans, so I am 
making a request that you provide this Committee on whatever 
basis you can, confidentially or otherwise, a list of those 
countries.
    Mr. Brown. We will work on that. State Department also 
could probably provide you some pretty good answers on that 
because they have some more visibility on that once it gets to 
that phase.
    Senator Blumenthal. Let me then pursue what I think has 
been another line of questioning here. In terms of the scammers 
themselves, how many cases have been made against them?
    Mr. Brown. We have--specific to Cocoon, there have been 15 
persons tied to the transnational criminal organizations 
arrested and prosecuted, all of which were done overseas but in 
concert with my agency, and there are numerous ongoing 
investigations which I am not at liberty to talk about.
    Senator Blumenthal. There are ongoing investigations. 
Fifteen----
    Mr. Brown. Fifteen----
    Senator Blumenthal [continuing]. individual defendants 
charged?
    Mr. Brown. Correct.
    Senator Blumenthal. Have they--what is the status of those 
prosecutions?
    Mr. Brown. Some of those are still going through the legal 
process in the countries where they have been charged.
    Senator Blumenthal. They have not been charged in this 
country?
    Mr. Brown. No, they have not.
    Senator Blumenthal. Why not?
    Mr. Brown. Again, it is simply an issue of where the best 
evidence lies.
    Senator Blumenthal. Why have they not been extradited? Why 
have they not been charged in this country? Their victims are 
American citizens. Why are we--and I apologize for maybe 
stating this in non-legal terms--why are we counting on their 
justice system that is already imprisoning our citizens 
unjustly to exact justice for making those citizens victims? 
Why do we not extradite them? Why do we not charge them here? 
Why do we not prosecute them here? What is the point of 
investigating them if we are not going to prosecute them here?
    Mr. Brown. In certain instances, there probably would not 
be sufficient venue in the U.S. If a person flies--and, again, 
I am not an attorney. I am a law enforcement officer, and there 
is a different. Umm----
    Senator Blumenthal. Okay. Again, I do not want to put you 
on the spot, and I do not want you to speculate. Ms. Steinberg, 
you are a lawyer, so you may have another answer, so chime in 
if you wish, but also, I would like that information, simply as 
to where the trials are taking place and some explanation for 
why it is not here.
    Mr. Brown. We will get you that information.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you.
    My time has long since expired, so thank you, Madam 
Chairwoman.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    I just have a couple more questions that I want to quickly 
touch on.
    Mr. Brown, from what I understand, some seniors look inside 
the package or the suitcase that they are given and they would 
look at them and not be able to tell that they were carrying 
drugs. Is that accurate, and can you show us the photos you 
have brought with you?
    Mr. Brown. Absolutely. All the pictures that you will see 
are from Cocoon victims, so in this instance, this is a person 
who was given a bag of candy to take along as a gift from stop 
B to stop C on their trip. When you open the wrappers, and 
there is a picture that shows that, methamphetamine, not candy, 
so unless the person went to that level of scrutinizing what 
they had, they would not know.
    This is one of the common tactics, and it has been a common 
tactic for smuggling in the commercial air environment for 
forever, is a false walled suitcase. This is where--about the 
thickness of a sheet of cardboard. The drugs are put into the 
lining of the suitcase. Again, there is a weight difference. I 
believe this suitcase contained seven kilograms of cocaine, so 
about an extra 15 pounds in that suitcase, but you know, just 
looking at the suitcase, absent that X-ray, you are not going 
to see it, and this is how they probe it in the airport 
environment. When that drill bit comes out with a white powdery 
substance, then they will proceed further into destroying the 
suitcase, but until they have that probe, they are not even 
sure. You know, they have got an X-ray that is suspicious. Then 
they will take it to this step to confirm that the drugs are 
inside.
    The Chairman. That is a really good example, because in 
this case, from what I can see, the drugs are hidden in the 
lining of the suitcase, is that accurate?
    Mr. Brown. Absolutely. If you, you know, were not familiar 
with the weight of the empty suitcase, or what the wall feeling 
of that suitcase is, it is not visible to the naked eye in any 
way, shape, or form.
    The Chairman. I think that is a really important point, 
because even if the senior is curious about what it is, they 
would open the suitcase and still think nothing was amiss, is 
that accurate?
    Mr. Brown. That is accurate. Really, the only indicator 
would be potentially the extra weight.
    The Chairman. The weight.
    Mr. Brown. That is one of the reasons why seniors 
potentially could be more vulnerable, is, you know, luggage has 
gotten lighter over the years. If you have not traveled a lot 
or you have traveled with your old suitcase, that extra 15 
pounds or whatever the extra weight may be may not be 
noticeable.
    The Chairman. Finally, I would like you to give us a little 
more detail on the example of the 97-year-old gentleman that, I 
believe, you were able to intercept, if you could tell us a 
little bit about that case, not how you identified him but 
where was he headed for, where did you head him off, and also, 
if you have a case where one of your agents tried to intervene 
and the senior was so caught up in a romance scam and 
believed--the people had been warned to not believe law 
enforcement, if you could give us those two examples.
    Mr. Brown. With the 97-year-old, he was traveling with his 
adult daughter. I believe she was in her 60's. I do not 
remember the exact routing of his trip, but I do remember, is I 
believe he was supposed to fly out of Atlanta. At the last 
minute, they rerouted his flight to Detroit, so we had agents 
standing by to intercept him at the airport. They quickly had 
to get hold of another office and get agents scrambling to get 
to his new route of travel.
    His case was a little more complicated. He was being 
targeted by what is called a black money scheme, and I do not 
know if the Committee is familiar with that----
    The Chairman. I am not.
    Mr. Brown. One of the prevalent frauds is what is called a 
black money scheme, and in a nutshell, it is the person claims 
that, hey, I have got a bunch of generally U.S. dollars. They 
have got tainted. They are all dyed black, but I have 
discovered a secret powder that will get the black off and then 
we will have these millions of dollars.
    In the instance of the 97-year-old, he thought he was going 
to pick up this magical powder, take it to the third country 
where the money would be cleaned and he would get a chunk of 
the money for delivering this magical powder. One of the 
documents he had in his possession when our agents talked to 
him was a letter from--in this case, it was a West African 
organization that was scamming him--saying, you know, hey, if 
you are stopped, this is addressed to whatever customs 
officials this man was going to meet along the way--and just to 
make him feel better, it would not have meant anything to the 
customs officials he met--saying, hey, this powder is our 
responsibility, it is not his responsibility. You know, that 
would not have gotten him out of jail.
    The Chairman. Exactly.
    Mr. Brown. In that case, he did admit--which is one of the 
challenges--that he suspected he might have been doing 
something wrong, but the potential of the financial reward was 
enough to make him think it might be worth doing.
    We had another instance, to go to the second part of your 
question, where we had a gentleman in Alabama that the 
targeting efforts picked up. We had enough lead time where we 
were able to send agents out to his residence to talk to him. 
While our agents were there standing on his front porch talking 
to him, the scammers called. His wife answered the phone, kind 
of told them, hey, we have got agents here talking to us right 
now. They said, well, that is not real law enforcement. We are 
working with real law enforcement. Our agents got escorted off 
the property at the end of a barrel of a shotgun, but again, 
that comes down to the challenge of I cannot stop a U.S. 
citizen from traveling if they choose to.
    The nice happy ending to that story is that gentleman 
ultimately did come to his senses and decide the people 
standing on his porch were the ones telling him the truth. He 
did not travel.
    The Chairman. I was going to ask you whether, ultimately, 
he traveled or not and what happened, so I am glad that it had 
a happy ending, and again, I commend you for bringing this scam 
to our attention.
    Mr. Martin, as you heard today, there is a lot of sympathy 
among the members of this panel and also feeling that what 
happened to your father appears to be so unfair, and we will 
followup.
    Mr. Brown, if you could help us--I know we have had 
conversations with you identifying countries in which you 
believe victimized elderly and senior Americans are being held, 
and if we could work further with you to try to take a look at 
that list and see if there is a way that diplomatically we 
could intervene to get these people returned home, whose only 
crime really was being extraordinarily gullible, so I thank you 
very much.
    Senator McCaskill.
    Senator McCaskill. I just have a couple of things. We are 
going to release the annual report on what comes in across our 
fraud hotline, and it is tiny compared to what is out there, 
because very few people really know that there is a fraud 
hotline that exists at the U.S. Senate, and I am not sure at 
this point in time in our country's history very many people 
trust that we are as serious about this as we are.
    By the way, the Chairman and I have been discussing between 
us during this hearing how proud we are of you, Mr. Brown, and 
your colleagues. We spend a lot of time--it seems it is very 
fashionable these days to beat up government every chance we 
get in every way we can, and this is a great example. You came 
to the Committee with this issue and we are honored that you 
did. You all have--are obviously trying to intercept people at 
airports to keep them from going down this path, which is 
really admirable. You have a lot on your plate, so while I am 
stern and want you to do more, I do respect deeply that you all 
have big jobs and lots of responsibilities.
    When we release this fraud report, it will basically surf 
over the highlights of what is really going on in terms of 
seniors being victimized in this country through scams, a lot 
of which have an international component. If you would organize 
your response to the Committee so that we can look at it based 
on the scams that we have had hearings about that we know are 
so prevalent, particularly the IRS impersonation, the Jamaican 
lottery sweepstakes, certainly the government grant scams, and 
to the extent that we could look at this drug mule, because, 
obviously, this is so international. It is steeped with an 
international component. Then, I think we would better 
understand the resources that are being spent right now at 
Justice and what we need to do to augment those, if necessary.
    In that regard, it would really be helpful, Ms. Steinberg, 
if we would know whose portfolio this really is. I think your 
job probably is much bigger than this job. I think you got the 
short straw. We respect the fact that you are here. We have had 
difficulty with the previous Attorney General, getting 
witnesses to appear in front of our committee, so we are--I do 
not want to be so mean to you that you never come back, because 
we are glad you are here.
    It would be helpful--because I understand this weird 
tension between the mother ship and the USAs. You know, you do 
not need to say anything, because that would be inappropriate 
of you, but I completely get it. The mother ship has certain 
things it does in terms of sending signals to all the USAs 
around the country as to what their priorities should be. 
Sometimes there is an askance look at, what are you doing? This 
is not really our priority, and sometimes there is, that is it. 
That is what we want you to really be looking at.
    In order for me to get a handle on whether or not it is 
true, what the local law enforcement is telling us, that they 
cannot get you guys interested in this, I need to know who is 
responsible for this portfolio at the mother ship. Who is it 
that is most directly responsible for sending a signal out that 
this is a worthy use of the Justice Department's resources. If 
you could help me with that, then we can be more specific in 
our followup questions to make sure that we are addressing that 
to the right person, and that would be really helpful.
    Ms. Steinberg. Sure. As you have accurately pointed out, we 
have--our system of prosecution is somewhat decentralized. Each 
U.S. Attorney's Office, you know, they are making individual 
decisions about individual cases as they come in based on facts 
and evidence, and at main, you know, we signal out to the field 
about what our priorities are.
    We have things that are going on also in main Justice. We 
have cases that are driven out of main Justice. We have the 
Elder Justice Initiative, which is out of the Civil Section. 
Our Consumer Protection Branch has concurrent civil and 
criminal jurisdiction, so they can drive both of those types of 
cases. We also have cases that are driven out of our Criminal 
Division, the Medicare fraud cases.
    We do have responsibility dispersed throughout the 
Department on criminal matters, which is what I perceive your 
primary interest is----
    Senator McCaskill. Yes, and this probably is one of the 
issues here, because you could--is this consumer? You know, is 
this--and, I guess what I am really trying to get at is who is 
going to either show lots of love as these cases are being 
filed at USAs' offices, or who is going to go, what are you 
doing? How many times have we told you, you are supposed to be 
doing child porn stings, or you are supposed to be doing gun 
stuff, or you are supposed to be doing more stuff on the 
terrorism. I mean, that is what I want to try to get a handle 
on, is whose portfolio it is.
    Finally and most importantly, I think the one thing that 
you should leave this hearing with is that we will be calling 
on the heads of your agencies and the State Department. We 
ought to be able--I know how good law enforcement is in this 
country, Mr. Brown. I mean, law enforcement is amazing. The 
reason we do not have these cases in our country is because 
these criminals know they will get caught here and they will be 
put in prison here, so they are hanging out in other countries 
because they think they can get away with it.
    I am fully aware of how good law enforcement is. I know 
that we can figure out if all of these 30 people, these elderly 
people in prisons around the country, are victims, and once we 
figure out they are victims through our use of our law 
enforcement resources, then we have got to use all the 
resources we have to get them home. I think this is really a 
stain, and I think we all need to put a lot more attention to 
it.
    I know that Senator Collins feels strongly about it, Mr. 
Martin, but I really want to get your Dad home, and we are 
going to do everything we can----
    Mr. Martin. Thank you.
    Senator McCaskill [continuing]. to get him home.
    Mr. Martin. I really appreciate that.
    Senator McCaskill. Okay. Thank you all very much.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator McCaskill.
    Committee members have until Friday, February 26, to submit 
any questions for the record.
    I want to again thank all of our witnesses today, my 
Ranking Member, Senator McCaskill, who always brings her keen 
legal skills to every hearing that we have, and all of the 
Committee members who participated in today's hearing. We had 
extraordinary participation today, which shows you how 
important the Committee members view this issue, and I also 
want to thank the Committee staff for its preparation.
    This hearing is now adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:09 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

  
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                                APPENDIX

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                      Prepared Witness Statements

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