[Senate Hearing 114-747]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 114-747
U.S. POLICY IN LIBYA
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
JUNE 15, 2016
__________
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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS
BOB CORKER, Tennessee, Chairman
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland
MARCO RUBIO, Florida BARBARA BOXER, California
RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
CORY GARDNER, Colorado CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
DAVID PERDUE, Georgia TOM UDALL, New Mexico
JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia CHRISTOPHER MURPHY, Connecticut
RAND PAUL, Kentucky TIM KAINE, Virginia
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
Todd Womack, Staff Director
Jessica Lewis, Democratic Staff Director
Rob Strayer, Majority Chief Counsel
Margaret Taylor, Minority Chief Counsel
John Dutton, Chief Clerk
(ii)
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Corker, Hon. Bob, U.S. Senator From Tennessee.................... 1
Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., U.S. Senator From Maryland............. 2
Winer, Jonathan, Special Envoy for Libya, Bureau of Near Eastern
Affairs, U.S. Department of State, Washington, DC.............. 4
Prepared statement........................................... 5
Responses to questions for the record submitted to Special
Envoy Jonathan Winer by Senator Boxer...................... 24
(iii)
U.S. POLICY IN LIBYA
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WEDNESDAY, JUNE 15, 2016
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Foreign Relations,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.m. in Room
SD-419, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Bob Corker,
chairman of the committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Corker [presiding], Risch, Johnson,
Flake, Gardner, Perdue, Barrasso, Cardin, Menendez, Udall, and
Markey.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BOB CORKER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM TENNESSEE
The Chairman. The Foreign Relations Committee will come to
order.
We welcome everyone. Thank you for being here. I want to
thank our witness for testifying today.
Five years after the U.S. decision to intervene in Libya,
which I think most of us, including our witness, would agree
was a textbook case in what not to do in foreign policy, if you
look at where we are today, I am still wondering what our Libya
policy is. I read through the briefings. I know Senator Cardin
and others did the same, and we spend most of our time on
foreign policy issues, obviously. And I have to tell you just
looking at the committee memo that was put in place by CRS, the
countervailing forces on the ground in Libya are really many,
and a very tough, complex situation has developed there.
I think our hearing today is an attempt to understand what
is an achievable outcome in Libya that is in line with U.S.
interests and at what cost. And obviously, if we can cause
people to come together through the efforts that are underway
at present, we really would just be getting back to where we
were in 2013. So there has been a lot of time and loss, a lot
of lives lost, a lot of backward momentum.
As different factions continue to compete across Libya, as
ISIS continues to use the chaos to establish an operating base
outside Syria, it appears that we are again contemplating
providing arms and training to some type of Libyan national
security force. I hope Mr. Winer can explain to us what lessons
the administration has learned from the failure of the last
time we tried to develop Libyan security forces and what
political progress needs to occur in order for us to try again.
To determine the way forward, we need an accurate
assessment of Tripoli's ability to govern and what we are doing
to help them and what can bring the rival administration in
Tobruk on board with the new government.
We have sanctioned Libyan individuals who are hindering the
formation of a unity government in the past, but are we
prepared to do so in the future?
For a country with vast oil wealth and thankfully void of
widespread sectarian tensions, Libya should become a success
story. I think we all are disheartened that in many ways the
failure of U.S. policy following the fall of Qaddafi has
hindered Libya's progress.
With that, I want to thank our Special Envoy for being here
who I know has concerns about the future of Libya. We look
forward to your testimony. We thank you for being here today to
help us understand the way forward.
And with that, I will turn to our distinguished ranking
member, Senator Ben Cardin.
STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MARYLAND
Senator Cardin. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think this
hearing is particularly important as to how we proceed in
Libya. And it is complicated. And I thank our witness for being
here and your service to our country.
But in order to counter ISIL in Libya, the United States
and others have accelerated efforts to strike at the stronghold
in Sirte while stepping up diplomatic efforts to achieve Libyan
unity. On a broad level, this is the right approach. Although I
am pleased to learn that ISIL is now physically on the run, I
am distressed that they continue to make inroads by inspiring
people online to commit atrocities, as we have seen in our own
country in Orlando.
But oftentimes in the rush to beat back the latest
terrorist threats, the expediency of counterterrorism actions
far outpaces and exceeds our political strategy. And that is a
matter of major concern. We want to take action, but we need to
know that we can follow up that action with a workable
strategy.
I fear that if we are not careful, if we do not devote the
same amount of time and resources to good governance, democracy
promotion, and humanitarian support in Libya, then we will
simply be worsening the country's divisions and repeating past
mistakes that we have made elsewhere. If we arm one militia to
counter ISIL today, even a militia that is acting under the
newly internationally recognized unity government, who knows
who will take up arms against us tomorrow?
Now, let me be clear. If the administration has information
about a threat against the United States, then we have to act,
and we have to act and do what is safe for the people of our
country. I know this administration is trying its best to
support the Government of National Accord, or GNA. 3 months ago
before this committee, I conveyed the urgency for Libyan
national unity.
Enhancing the GNA's legitimacy is critical for restoring
order to the country, bringing prosperity to its people and
helping Libya take its place among the community of nations.
GNA control over all of Libya is critical to combating
extremist forces, combating ISIL, and resolving a migrant
crisis that has tragically witnessed the drowning deaths of
thousands. We have lost thousands of people that have been
trafficked through Libya. That is one of the casualties of the
instability in that country.
And yet, while the GNA is doing its best to restore order,
the country's political division still festers as spoilers in
the eastern part of the country continue to block a vote on
approval of the GNA. As long as Libya remains fractured,
terrorist groups like ISIL will thrive and the temptation for
greater foreign intervention will only grow.
The GNA itself has not requested foreign intervention, and
while we can provide training to GNA-controlled units, we
cannot fight this fight for them. I think that is a very
important point.
If and when the U.S. decides to give military equipment and
training to Libyan forces, it must be with the full cognizance
of who we are giving support to and the potential for that
support later to be turned against the United States. We need
to have a clear strategy in Libya.
As I have said repeatedly before this committee, I am
concerned about the open-ended nature of this never-ending war
on terror that was pursued without congressional authorization,
whether it is waged in Libya, Yemen, Syria, or Iraq. What
begins as a small mission to build partners' capacity could
morph into something much larger. And all of this is based on
an authorization of U.S. force predating the upheaval in the
Arab world, predating the very existence of the Islamic State,
and even predating the U.S. invasion in Iraq more than 13 years
ago.
As I said earlier, our Libya policy must strike a balance
between achieving security and creating good governance.
Libya's core problem is that it is fractured along regional,
tribal, and religious lines between the old order and the new.
We in the international community must continue our best to try
and bridge these gaps. Libyans are tired of having multiple
competing governments. They deserve better.
I want to compliment the U.S. leadership in the Security
Council working with our British colleagues in getting the
Security Council's action to deal with strengthening the arms
embargo on Libya. And I will be interested in hearing from our
witness as to whether that will have a major impact on our
policy.
The United States and the international community can and
should help a country like Libya achieve unity, security, and
prosperity. It is my hope that we pursue a balanced policy and
not just an expedient one.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for those comments.
And, Mr. Winer, we really appreciate you being here. As
people know, you are the Special Envoy for Libya, the Bureau of
Near Eastern Affairs at the U.S. State Department. I think you
know that you can summarize your comments, if you will, in
about 5 minutes. Without objection, all of your written
testimony will be entered into the record. Again, thank you for
being here, and if you would, please proceed.
STATEMENT OF JONATHAN WINER, SPECIAL ENVOY FOR LIBYA, BUREAU OF
NEAR EASTERN AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE, WASHINGTON,
D.C.
Mr. Winer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Ranking
Member Cardin, and distinguished members of the committee, I
thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to
discuss U.S. foreign policy on Libya.
I have just returned from consultations with regional and
European partners to discuss our mutual support for the
transitional Government of National Accord, or GNA, in Libya,
whose challenges include ending civil conflict, promoting
stability, and addressing the ongoing terrorist threat.
Our strategic interest in Libya is to support a unified,
accountable government that meets the economic and security
needs of the Libyan people. We also seek a government with whom
we can partner on bilateral and regional objectives, including
countering the terrorism and illegal migration which threaten
security and stability across both North Africa and Europe.
At the center of our policy has been support for the
creation of the GNA as a unifying bridge to help Libyans move
beyond the damaging period of political competition, referred
to by the chairman and the ranking member, and fragmentation
until the country adopts a new constitution and a long-term
government.
To do that, we engaged last year with a wide range of
Libyans, international partners, and with U.N. Special
Representative of the Secretary-General Martin Kobler and his
predecessor Bernardino Leon to support the negotiation of the
Libyan political agreement, which was signed on December 17th,
2015 to bring about the GNA.
Since entering Tripoli March 30th, 75 days ago roughly, the
GNA has been able to demonstrate its commitment to
inclusiveness and national reconciliation and has begun the
critical work of rebuilding the Libyan state. Rather than
fighting one another, through the GNA backed by the political
dialogue, Libyans have begun the hard work of addressing common
challenges.
Our collective international support for the GNA has
already had practical impact on the ground. In recent days, we
have seen Libyan forces aligned with the GNA engage in
sustained fighting against Da'esh in the region around Sirte
and entering into the city. They have made impressive gains
against a ruthless enemy.
The GNA has announced plans to form a presidential guard.
It has established command centers to combat Da'esh in Sirte.
Prime Minister Fayez al-Sarraj has stated he will seek
international assistance to train and equip GNA forces for this
fight, which will not be a fight that will be over in merely
days or weeks. The Libyans will look to the United States for
our help in combating Da'esh, and we are prepared to provide
it.
The United States counterterrorism policy in Libya is
focused on degrading Da'esh and other violent extremist groups
and reducing the threat they pose to our national security and
to our interests in North Africa and in Europe. In Libya, as
elsewhere, the President has made clear his willingness to take
action wherever our interests are in danger.
In the past year, the United States has conducted direct
action against several terrorist targets in Libya, including a
February 19th strike that took out a Da'esh training camp in
the town of Sabratha west of Tripoli. We have also been working
to disrupt connections between the Da'esh branch in Libya and
the core group in Iraq and Syria to halt the flow of foreign
fighters to Libya, to shut off Da'esh finances there, and to
counter and defeat its destructive messages.
As with our other policy priorities, achieving our
counterterrorism objectives depends on helping the Libyans
rebuild an effective state. While real progress has been made
in recent months, much work remains to fully implement the
Libyan political agreement and to achieve a durable and broad
political reconciliation. With our partners in Europe and
within the region, we continue to urge all Libyans to put aside
their personal interests in the name of uniting Libya under the
GNA so Libyans throughout the country, east, west, and south,
can rebuild their nation.
We further urged them to support the integrity of Libya's
core economic institutions, in particular the Central Bank of
Libya and the national oil corporation, whose unity is vital to
the country's recovery and long-term stability.
U.S. assistance has played an important part in advancing
our policy, and we look to Congress for continued support as
the GNA takes shape. The administration has requested $20.5
million for assistance to Libya in fiscal year 2017. These
funds would enable us to respond to Libya's emerging needs,
help the GNA function as an inclusive and rights-respecting
national government, and support increasing Libya's security
and counterterrorism capabilities.
The administration is also planning to provide $35 million
in fiscal year 2016 and prior year funds to help Libya's
political transition produce an accountable and effective
national government. As part of this assistance, we intend to
commit up to $4 million in support of the UNDP-led
stabilization facility for Libya.
Mr. Chairman and members of this committee, as I described
at the outset today, the United States supports the aspirations
of the Libyan people for a united, inclusive, and responsive
national government capable of overcoming the country's
significant political challenges and divisions. We remain
deeply engaged with Libya because it is vital for our national
security, for that of Libya, for North Africa, and for Europe
and for the interests we share.
I look forward to taking your questions. Thank you.
[Mr. Winer's prepared statement follows:]
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Prepared Statement of Jonathan M. Winer
Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Cardin, and distinguished members of
the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today
to discuss U.S. foreign policy on Libya. I have just returned from
consultations with regional and European partners to discuss our mutual
support for the transitional Government of National Accord (GNA) in
Libya, whose challenges include ending civil conflict, promoting
stability and addressing the ongoing terrorist threat.
Our strategic interest in Libya is to support a unified,
accountable government that meets the economic and security needs of
the Libyan people. We also seek a government with whom we can partner
on bilateral and regional objectives, including countering terrorism
and illegal migration which threaten security and stability across
North Africa and in Europe. To address this, we have maintained a
policy of clear and ongoing support for both the GNA and implementation
of the UN-facilitated Libyan Political Agreement which established it.
Mr. Chairman, Libya's woes are well known. The 42 years of rule by
Muammar Qaddafi left a legacy of weakened institutions with limited
capacity, which have in turn been further damaged by infighting among
contenders for political power. In 2014, Libya's government split into
two groups, each of whom contended they were legitimate, one based in
the west in Tripoli, the other, recognized by the United States, in the
East in Tobruk, with a term due to end as of October 21, 2015. It was
in response to that political crisis that the United States worked with
other countries to support the UN Mission in Libya, UNSMIL, in the
negotiation of the Libyan Political Agreement in Skhirat, Morocco which
brought about the GNA on December 17, 2015, establishing the current
Presidency Council as the Executive, continuing the House of
Representatives as Libya's legislature, and establishing the State
Council as a consultative body.
The Political Agreement was a necessity. During the preceding
period of rival governments, according to UN estimates, the violence
affected some 2.5 million in Libya and displaced more than 430,000.
Human traffickers and smugglers have exploited the country's porous
borders and weak central government to enable a spectacular rise in
irregular migration across the Mediterranean into southern Europe. At
the same time, the Libyan people have suffered from growing economic
challenges, as Libyan oil has slid from daily production of 1.5 million
barrels to an average of about 350,000 barrels per day during 2015, and
efforts to adjust spending and overall instability led to shortages of
medical supplies and rising prices on many necessities. With no
monopoly of control of security by a state, terrorist and criminal
groups established a presence in various areas in Libya. These would be
profound challenges for any government, and they are especially
difficult for the GNA which seeks to govern by consensus and which has
to build capacity starting from near-scratch.
The GNA's Presidency Council moved to Tripoli on March 30 where it
was welcomed by the overwhelming majority of Libyans who want an end to
the chaos and fighting. Since its arrival the GNA has demonstrated its
commitment to inclusiveness and national reconciliation and begun the
critical work of rebuilding the Libyan state. Libyans are turning their
attention away from fighting one another and starting to address their
common challenges, and today Libyan forces aligned with the GNA are
engaged in sustained fighting against Da'esh in the city of Sirte and
making impressive gains against a ruthless enemy.
The United States has offered its unequivocal support to the GNA.
Secretary Kerry and leadership from more than 20 countries have
underscored our shared commitment to the government as it combats
Da'esh and other violent extremist groups in Libya, most recently at a
May 16 ministerial meeting on Libya in Vienna. At that meeting Libyan
Prime Minister Fayez al-Sarraj articulated the contours of Libya's
security needs and announced a series of steps to stabilize the
country. The GNA has announced plans to form a Presidential Guard and
established command centers to combat Da'esh in Sirte, and GNA
ministers have begun working in a caretaker capacity pending formal
action by the Libyan parliament. The Libyans will look to the United
States for our help as it continues to move forward in addressing these
challenges, and we are prepared to give it.There is relative stability
and calm in Tripoli, due in large part to the GNA's outreach to local
leaders, though we recognize the GNA must decrease its dependency on
the patchwork of militias in Tripoli and form a reliable and regular
security force. The GNA has been clear in its intent to establish
inclusive, national forces; it must also continue to build its support
base and expand stability and calm throughout the country.
International support for the GNA has consistently been strong; the
United States, United Nations, EU, Arab League, and virtually all of
the key European and Middle Eastern countries have expressed their
support for the GNA, and UN Security Council resolution (UNSCR) 2259
made clear that the GNA is the sole legitimate government of Libya.
Nevertheless, much work remains to fully implement the Libya
Political Agreement and achieve durable and broad political
reconciliation. A small minority of hardliners in the House of
Representatives has blocked implementation of the Libyan Political
Agreement by repeatedly obstructing a vote to formally endorse the GNA
Cabinet and amend the country's Constitutional Declaration. The EU
sanctioned the House speaker, Agila Issa, for playing ``spoiler'' to
the political process on April 1; the United States designated Issa for
sanctions on May 13. We continue to urge all Libyans to put aside their
personal interests in the name of uniting Libya under the GNA, so that
Libyans in all parts of the country--east, west and south--can start
rebuilding their nation.
We similarly support the GNA's efforts to bring the various armed
actors in Libya under its consolidated command and control, through an
approach that is inclusive and integrative. We have been encouraged to
see many armed groups welcome and align with the GNA and respond to its
call for a joint offensive on Da'esh. Prime Minister Sarraj continues
to try to broaden the offensive, to include the units led by General
Khalifa Haftar, and in Vienna made the case strongly that a united
Libyan front to combat Da'esh is the only viable option.
With an estimated 3,000 to 6,500 fighters, Da'esh's Libya branch is
considered the most successful of the eight official branches outside
of Syria and Iraq and has the potential to do great damage to the GNA's
efforts to establish itself and govern the country. Da'esh is likely to
continue its attempts to further destabilize the region, export terror
to sub-Saharan Africa, and threaten to attack Europe's southern flank.
Da'esh had controlled the central coastal town of Sirte since summer
2015, and is believed to have a presence in Tripoli, Benghazi,
Ajdabiya, Derna, Sabratha, and other major towns and cities. But as we
have seen in recent weeks, Da'esh's presence in Libya is now being
challenged by the GNA and a range of Libyan forces, throughout the
coastal region and including Sirte. Da'esh has lost substantial ground
everywhere that it has been challenged by Libyans--but we have reports
that elements of it are going underground, readying themselves for
future assaults on Libya, its people, and its institutions. The
struggle is likely to continue for some time to come.
Da'esh's current losses in Libya should not be completely
surprising. Its branch in Libya is different in many ways from the core
in Syria and Iraq: among Libya's mostly Sunni population, Da'esh has
been unable to exploit a Sunni-Shia divide to recruit and win
ideological favor. It also lacks the ability to use oil smuggling as a
major revenue-generating resource as it does in Iraq and Syria.
Additionally, Libyans do not welcome foreign actors. Polling shows
Libyans overwhelmingly view Da'esh as an unwelcome foreign phenomenon.
We have now seen Libyans rally in opposition to Da'esh in multiple
locations, expelling them from the city of Derna, for example.
Action against Da'esh in Libya is needed for the safety of Libyans,
but also for the safety of their neighbors. Libya's porous borders and
political and security vacuum have allowed Da'esh to plan and carry out
significant attacks in Tunisia and Libya. A number of other terrorist
organizations also operate in Libya, including the Benghazi and Derna
factions of Ansar al-Sharia, which led the 2012 attack on U.S.
facilities in Benghazi, as well as Al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb
(AQIM) and al-Murabitun.
Our counterterrorism policy in Libya is focused on degrading Da'esh
and other violent extremist groups and reducing the threat they pose to
U.S. interests in North Africa and Europe. In Libya as elsewhere, the
President has made clear his willingness to take action wherever our
interests are in danger. In the past year the United States has
conducted direct action against several terrorist targets in Libya: our
June 2015 strike near the city of Ajdabiya targeted Al-Qaida-affiliated
Algerian Mokhtar Belmokhtar; our November 2015 strike outside Derna
killed Iraqi national and senior Da'esh figure in Libya Abu Nabil al-
Anbari; and our February 19 strikes took out a Da'esh training camp and
a foreign fighter facilitator in the western town of Sabratha. We also
are focused on disrupting connections between the Da'esh branch in
Libya and the core group in Iraq and Syria, and the Global Coalition to
Counter ISIL has committed to a concerted push to halt the flow of
foreign fighters to Libya, disrupt Da'esh finances there, and counter
and defeat its destructive message.
Meanwhile the United States is expanding contacts with a range of
groups in Libya, with the objective of identifying and assisting
willing and capable potential partners that work under the GNA's
command. We also actively work with Libya's neighbors on terrestrial
and maritime border security to shut down the cross-border flow of
weapons and fighters. This is a particularly difficult challenge in
Libya, especially in the south, and for long-term success we need a
strong, accountable Libyan security force.
At the meeting in Vienna, Prime Minister Sarraj announced plans to
seek equipment and training for GNA forces. The GNA will need the
support of the U.S. and international community to be successful in
this effort. We are working with the GNA and our international partners
to determine what assistance can be provided and, at the same time, to
determine ways to enforce the embargo to prevent arms shipments to
groups operating outside GNA authority. Prime Minister al-Sarraj has
been clear that Libya does not need or desire a military intervention,
but that it will need the international community's support to win the
fight against Da'esh.
It will take time for the GNA to establish the security
institutions and capacity to combat Da'esh, guard its borders and fully
protect its citizens. The United States recognizes that this will be a
long fight, and that we will need to provide help in coordination with
our allies. But we are encouraged that the political conditions on the
ground are improving to allow a strong counterterrorism partnership.
As we see some progress on the political and security fronts in
Libya, we remain deeply concerned about the destructive impact of the
ongoing violence on the civilian population in Libya. The GNA must move
quickly to address systemic governance and justice issues. Libyans and
migrants in Libya are also in need of urgent humanitarian relief. Men,
women, and children in Libya deserve basic services and improved living
conditions. The United States has already committed more than $4
million of humanitarian assistance in our current fiscal year to Libya
through the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and
International Committee of the Red Cross, as well as $1 million to an
international humanitarian NGO to help address the most urgent public
health needs throughout Libya. This brings our total humanitarian
assistance to more than $115 million since the start of the conflict.
Currently, the Administration is planning to provide $35 million in
FY 2016 and prior year funds to help Libya's political transition
produce an accountable and effective national government. U.S. support
remains essential to strengthening Libya's democratic and governance
institutions, and supporting regional security. As part of this
assistance, the United States also intends to commit up to $4 million
in support of the UNDP-led Stabilization Facility for Libya, intended
to provide support to small-scale infrastructure projects, build
municipal administrative capacity, and enable local conflict resolution
and mediation.
Working with the Libyan government and private sector, we are
supporting targeted economic engagements that expand links with the
United States and the global economy. Furthermore, to help Libyan young
people prepare for careers in the global economy and broaden our
people-to-people relationships, the United States is funding
scholarships, professional exchanges, and English-language learning
programs.
In addition, the Administration has requested $20.5 million for
assistance to Libya in FY 2017 from Congress. These funds will enable
us to respond quickly to Libya's emerging needs and support programs to
increase security and counterterrorism capabilities, while helping the
GNA function as an inclusive and rights-respecting national government.
Funds will build Libyan governance capacity, crucial to stopping the
spread of terrorist groups.
We understand the need to ensure our assistance and programming is
flexible. We will respond to assistance requests from the GNA and
continue to engage a broad range of Libyan stakeholders, such as senior
officials of the new government, civil society, tribes, women, and
youth. Despite instability and political divisions in 2014 and 2015,
the United States continued implementation of key programs supporting
the democratic political transition, particularly at the local level,
through local partners. Active programs in over 15 Libyan
municipalities representing 75 percent of the population support civil
society, elected officials, entrepreneurs, and municipal governments.
The United States continues to work with local institutions--mayors,
council members, and staff--on service delivery, violence prevention
strategies, and local government administration.Mr. Chairman and
members of the Committee: as I described at the outset today, the
United States supports the aspirations of the Libyan people for a
united, inclusive, and responsive national government capable of
overcoming the country's significant political challenges and divisions
since the 2011 revolution. The U.S. government is deeply engaged with
Libya because we have shared interests that are essential to our
national security. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. I look
forward to answering any questions you have.
I assume that you believe that it is reasonable that Libya
can be put back together as a unified state that can secure its
border and maintain monopoly over the use of force. Is that
something that you believe can occur?
Mr. Winer. I believe it can occur. Several things in your
statement that need all be taken into consideration. A unitary
state for Libya is absolutely essential. Any division of Libya
into parts will be disastrous for the people of Libya, for the
country, for the region, and bad across the board. Border
control is something that is going to require work by Libya's
neighbors, as well as by Libya.
The Chairman. You know, based on the way things are
progressing at present, how long into the future do you think
that is?
Mr. Winer. Well, the Government of National Accord has made
more progress over the last 75 days than most people ever
expected it would be able to make in that period of time. The
advances that they have made against Da'esh in the Sirte region
are truly impressive and involve a tremendous amount of
sacrifice by Libyan soldiers.
The Chairman. Is Da'esh the unifying force right now that
is causing them to come together?
Mr. Winer. Samuel Johnson, the British writer, once said
that the prospect of a hanging concentrates the mind. And I
think that has been an element that has helped bring Libyans
together is concern about their security, as well as their
economic situation.
The Chairman. So after ISIS is dealt with effectively, is
there any sense that because this is a unifying force that is
bringing people together citing historians--is there concern
that after that is dealt with, the civil war can again break
out?
Mr. Winer. I think that the approach of having a Government
of National Accord for a transition is designed to produce
mechanisms for getting services provided and political support
in east, west, and south. For the government to succeed, it has
to be able to provide services at the local level. There has to
be buy-in in municipalities throughout the country with real
attention given to underserved areas from the past. That is an
important part of the political----
The Chairman. And are they capable of doing that? We do not
have sectarian issues here, but we certainly had divisions
within the country. So is it reasonable to believe in a period
of time that matters they are going to be able to do that?
Mr. Winer. I do not think it is easy for them to do it. I
think they are working on it. The Presidency Council consists
of nine people representing all three major regions, and I have
seen them begin to work together and grow together into a
working unit. And I think they are committed to that. The
constitution that the Libyans still need to build out and the
elections they still need to carry out for a permanent
government are going to have to be designed by Libyans to
address these core issues so that they have a nation that they
can build for the future. But given their potential oil wealth,
past and future, they have the tools. In theory, they should be
able to do it.
The Chairman. So, you know, this was a case of--I know that
most of the committee was in a different place than I was on
this. But I did not understand what our national interests were
in going in in the first place. I certainly did not understand
going in, decapitating the government, and leaving as we have.
You just laid out a series of numbers which certainly to
most Americans is a lot of money, but on the other hand, as we
know, as it relates to dealing with these kind of issues, a
very, very light amount of resources.
I am just wondering what role you see the U.S. playing
right now. Are we one of 30 countries? Are we the lead country?
It does not appear, if you look at the resources being
allocated, if we are the major force in helping this all come
together, there is much effort that is happening on the ground.
Can you share with us your thoughts in that regard?
Mr. Winer. Yes, Mr. Chairman. The assistance money we are
asking for are comparatively small amounts by comparison to
what we are doing in Iraq, for example, or in many other
places. There we are part of an international coalition to try
and help Libya through this transition----
The Chairman. Who is leading that coalition?
Mr. Winer. The U.N. is essentially in the lead, the U.N.
mission in Libya. The European Union is committing substantial
amounts, as are individual----
The Chairman. Are they taking more of a leading role in
Libya than the United States is? The European Union?
Mr. Winer. No, sir. But in the assistance area, our
requests are what they are. Our core work over this past year
has been political in the first instance, to get alignment
amongst all Libya's neighbors, important regional players
beyond Libya's neighbors, the Europeans, and us to work with
the Libyans to try and bring them together, get them aligned
instead of fighting one another. That has taken an immense
amount of work and it played a substantial role in the creation
of the Government of National Accord.
The Chairman. Well, I think all of us on the committee have
traveled through northern Africa and just seen the havoc that
the fall of Libya has created, the amount of arms that have
traveled through those countries, the support that is given for
transnationalist terrorist groups to be able to do what they
are doing. That has happened. That is water, if you will, under
the bridge.
I still am having difficulties seeing the progress. I am
glad we have someone like yourself there, but do understand
that if we end up in a situation years from now where a country
cannot maintain its borders, cannot have total control over
what is happening militarily in the country, that havoc is
going to continue.
We thank you for your efforts and look forward to
additional questions.
Senator Cardin?
Senator Cardin. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Winer, I certainly understand the U.S. participation
with the international community in 2011, and it, I think, was
well received in Congress, although the administration chose
not to submit an authorization for the use of military force.
And as I said in my opening statement, I think we have to act
when we have a reason to do it, but we have to think about the
consequences after those actions.
Now, today my understanding is that we have a limited
number of special op forces that are operating in Libya, and I
know that Great Britain and France have also interjected some
troops. Are foreign nations considering sending ground forces
into Libya?
Mr. Winer. I am not aware of anything beyond a training and
equip mission, Senator.
Senator Cardin. And what is the intention for U.S.
additional personnel being used in Libya?
Mr. Winer. I think that question needs to be addressed
probably in another setting and with the participation of other
parts of the U.S. Government.
Senator Cardin. Could you tell us whether the
administration is anticipating sending up an authorization to
Congress for its military campaign in Libya?
Mr. Winer. I do not know of a military campaign in Libya
being contemplated, Senator.
Senator Cardin. Well, we have our people there. I
understand the difference between combat and I understand the
lines that you are drawing. So is it anticipated that you will
see congressional action as part of the strategy for a united
front for U.S. participation in whatever is done in Libya?
Mr. Winer. I am prepared to provide you any information I
have in an appropriate setting at any time.
Senator Cardin. One of the factors that you judge how well
we are proceeding--and I acknowledged in my opening statement
the progress that you have made against the terrorists, and
that has been some major advancements. And we have yet to see
the ratification of the unity government, which is a major step
that is yet to be taken. And we know that there are leaders in
Libya that are resisting that. So we are not there yet by any
stretch of the imagination. You gave a pretty optimistic
account.
One of the indicators would be the reopening of our
embassy. Is that likely to occur in the near future?
Mr. Winer. Senator, we very much want to have our embassy
reopened in Libya. That is a policy goal. We want to be present
in Libya. We think it is important that we are present in
Libya. Our ability to do that depends on our evaluation of the
security situation, and as of now, we have not evaluated that
it is time for us to do that. Before we do that, we will be
back here to talk to you all about it.
Senator Cardin. Could you be more specific as to what
conditions are going to be necessary to reopen our embassy?
Mr. Winer. Diplomatic security is going to have to feel
that it is the right thing to do in the first instance, and
then other parts of the administration would have to concur.
And then we would be down here talking to you about it.
Senator Cardin. Tell me the capacity of the Libyan people
to take on ISIL. What is the capacity with or without a GNA?
How do you see their ability to defend themselves against ISIL?
Mr. Winer. Well, Senator, under the period of divided
government, when the government that we recognized, whose house
was based in Tobruk and whose government was based in Bayda in
the extreme east of Libya, when we had that period and there
was a competing government that no one recognized in Tripoli,
that is the period of time when Da'esh secured a presence in
the far east of the country in Derna and a substantial
geographic territory in the region around Sirte in the center
of Libya's coastal region.
Since the Government of National Accord was agreed on in
Skhirat on December 17th and then voted on favorably for the
Presidency Council and the political agreement, although not
for the cabinet, by the house of representatives on January
25th, we have seen different Libyan forces take on Da'esh with
some substantial success. Da'esh was first kicked out of Derna
by local extremist forces. Some of the people who had invited
them in decided they did not like being told what to do by
foreign extremists. And then additional forces associated with
General Haftar have undertaken further efforts in and around
Derna. And most recently, forces east and west of Sirte have
collaborated expressly under the Government of National Accord
through operations rooms to impressively push Da'esh back out
of Sirte.
Senator Cardin. I want to get one more question in with the
chairman's permission here because I do not want to disappoint
the chairman and not mention my favorite subject of good
governance and corruption.
One of the real challenges is the trafficking through
Libya, which is causing people at risk through traffickers to
try to get to Europe. Part of that is corruption within the
Libyan government. In addition, you have a large percentage of
the population that is in desperate need of humanitarian
assistance, and the honesty and institutions of government are
so weak, it is hard to get that aid. What is the prognosis that
we will have a functioning government that can stop the
traffickers and can be available to deliver the humanitarian
aid that is needed?
Mr. Winer. I cannot offer a probability, Senator. The
government is working initially to counter----
Senator Cardin. Is that a high priority for us? I mean, I
understand that we have a lot of political problems, but are we
making with our international partners a high priority to make
sure that we can stop the tragedies that are taking place in
the humanitarian crisis?
Mr. Winer. Well, just this week, Senator, the U.N. endorsed
a resolution put forth by the United Kingdom to enhance
maritime oversight of potential arms trafficking
internationally. From my point of view, the more vessels there
are in the area of Libya, the more likely we will be able to
begin to combat the migrant flow. We talked to all Libya's
neighbors about it. We talked to the Libyans about it. Dealing
with migrant trafficking in any country, as Europe has
demonstrated itself through any number of national borders, is
a very difficult business, and it is going to take a lot of
work over a long time.
In terms of the humanitarian crisis, we have been working
with the Central Bank of Libya, with the national oil company,
with the Presidency Council on measures to try and reduce the
risk of humanitarian crisis and get some traction on problems
of liquidity they have been facing as a result of the loss of
confidence in the government during the two-government period.
And we are making some progress in that area.
Senator Cardin. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Senator Perdue?
Senator Perdue. Thank you and thank you for your service.
I have two quick questions, and I really want to get to the
arms embargo that the ranking member mentioned. But first I
want to talk about and get your opinion on this potential
financial situation in Libya, which I think is very critical as
well.
You know, oil is right now almost all--almost 97 percent--
of their revenue. And I know with the price of oil being down
and also their annual production is about a third of their
capacity, if I have got the numbers right. And then I look at
the reserves, and the reserves, depending on the amount of
outtake they have every year, could be as short-lived as 3 to 9
years. Well, that is shocking, if that is 100 percent of their
economy and you only have 3 to 9 years in the best situation,
what is the outcome here? Because you got a financial
catastrophe sitting right here in the midst of this very
distressed battle situation. So I am trying to get past the
ceasefire and all the rest of it and say, okay, what do we do
to rebuild that country economically so you can stop the
fostering of this radical element. So would you address the
financial potential collapse that we are looking at here?
Mr. Winer. Yes, sir. You have just identified one of the
core issues that we have been concerned about and been working
on. They are at risk of eating all of their seed corn and being
left with a disaster if they do not get their acts together to
pump their oil. We are working right now to try and get Ibrahim
al-Jadhran and his national petroleum forces to turn the oil
back on in the oil crescent.
Senator Perdue. But if he turns it on, do you not have the
reserve problem? And that shortens the number of the years
until they actually burn it all out.
Mr. Winer. I think that the problem is not so much pumping
it out and losing it. There is still room for further
exploration and further development, as it is the problem of
too much money going out and not enough coming in, where the
IMF has said to us, for example, there is no solution, no
reforms they can take if they are not producing their oil.
Senator Perdue. Their debt situation is already at a crisis
level.
Mr. Winer. They are in a very difficult economic situation
right now as a result of not pumping their oil. They should be
pumping 1.5 million a day. They have been pumping less than
400,000 a day. Last week, I talked with the head of the
petroleum forces and said you have got to turn the oil back on.
Now, he now supports the Government of National Accord. His
forces have been fighting to get rid of Da'esh, and I think
that that oil is going to be turned on. It is absolutely
critical. There are forces in the west, the Zintan. They have
shut down 440,000 barrels a day because some of their concerns
have not been met.
Senator Perdue. Since that is such an important economic
issue--I am sorry to interrupt.
Mr. Winer. Yes, sir.
Senator Perdue. But does ISIS pose a threat to that oil
production even if they could turn it up?
Mr. Winer. To the production, yes. To exploitation,
probably not. The pipelines run north-south, south-north. And
they are not really exploitable in Libya in the way they have
been exploitable in Iraq. Da'esh did attack the oil crescent
area and destroyed some terminals, some areas where oil was
being stored at the terminals. And that has probably reduced
their capacity some, but it is quite limited damage at this
point. One of the things that is really impressive about the
efforts against Da'esh in the Sirte region and the oil crescent
region is it has begun to push them away from their ability to
threaten Libya's future oil production. And so that is a
significant development.
But the Libyans need to draw together and address one
another's grievances so that everybody agrees to allow the oil
to be pumped again so that they have less of a mismatch between
the money that is coming into their treasury and the money that
is going out.
Senator Perdue. Would you agree we are within a year or 2,
in the best case scenario, of really having a potential
collapse, though, if they do not do that?
Mr. Winer. Yes, sir. A couple years.
Senator Perdue. Second question. I am sorry. Thank you for
that candor.
Relative to the U.N. Security Council resolution just
yesterday I believe, what do you think the impact of that will
be? And will it have any impact on what is coming in to support
Da'esh?
Mr. Winer. It is not clear to me where Da'esh is getting
its weapons from. I think a lot of it is from domestic
stockpiles and that kind of thing. What is important about the
arms embargo is limiting the risk of different international
players aligning themselves with different forces within the
country and thus exacerbating the risk of internal conflict.
We spent a tremendous amount of time in 2015 and the first
half of 2016 getting regional players aligned. There are three
conditions for us to have success in Libya. Very briefly.
One, negotiating process. We worked that out and we got the
Government of National Accord and the Libyan political
agreement by having one U.N.-led process.
Secondly, having regional players with interests and
relationships in Libya agree on a common course and press
forces within Libya that they have been working with to
participate in and to agree with it. We have gotten tremendous
success in that. That is the second.
Third, there has to be benefits at the local level, at
municipalities throughout the country in different regions,
from the agreement and from the government so that they have a
stake in stability. We are working on that, Senator.
Senator Perdue. One last comment. I applaud all of that. My
only admonition would be to add a fourth, and that is the post
effort, what happens after that happens to the economy and to
the people and the economy that we are talking about so that we
can minimize the danger of continued radicalization there.
Mr. Winer. Ultimately we would like to see the Libyans
develop a revenue sharing mechanism where resources go to
people at the local level. They have to get the basics down in
public financial administration so there is greater
accountability for their resources and their spending in
systems that are transparent to the Libyan people and which
meet modern standards. That would be very good for Libya. Some
of the money that we are requesting from Congress today would
go to that. Some of the money you provided us in the past will
be going to public financial administration.
Senator Perdue. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Winer. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Senator Markey, are you squared away?
Senator Markey. Is that synonymous with having just sat
down? Squared away? [Laughter.]
The Chairman. No. It is synonymous with knowing your staff
was still whispering in your ear, and I was not sure you had
taken it all in.
Senator Markey. I think I am ready to go.
Thank you, sir. Thank you for your service.
Senator Cardin and I, Senator Gardner, we were just in
Saudi Arabia about 10 weeks ago, and one of the highest ranking
ministers said to us that Libya was going to make Syria look
like a piece of cake, which was a very startling comment to
come from that source.
What would it take for that set of circumstances to unfold,
and what can we do to avoid it from ultimately transpiring?
Mr. Winer. Senator, regional competition in support of
different forces so that Libyans cannot come together to fight
terrorists could potentially lead to a very bad scenario. And
that is one of the things that we have been working to counter
over the past year, year and a half.
Having the terrorists destroy oil infrastructure and having
the oil not continue to flow to be able to fund core government
activities and salaries for government workers and for the
people of Libya would be another threat, if there is a
humanitarian collapse due to the inability of Libya to sustain
its economy. That would be a second element.
The third element would be not taking on Da'esh now and
allowing it to gain a further foothold. They do not produce
anything--the Islamic State. They are entirely predatory. They
live off the land and they live off the land in an
extraordinarily ugly and ruthless fashion, as we all know. So
they need to grab more territory at all times in order to
survive. So when you push them back on their heels and take
territory away from them, it is very difficult for them to
continue because they need to be able to generate income to
keep themselves going. So ignoring that problem would create
the kind of risk that you are talking about.
So there is the risk of internal conflict. There is the
risk of economic and humanitarian collapse, and there is the
risk from Da'esh. The three of them are intertwined, which is
why the strategy has been to get political alignment so that we
can get the Libyans to undertake, as they want to do,
countering the threat to all of them from the Islamic State,
which they detest.
Senator Markey. So in your testimony, you pointed out that
in Libya, ISIS lacks the ability to use oil smuggling as a
major revenue-generating resource, as it has done in Iraq and
in Syria. In March, this committee held a hearing on Libya,
during which I expressed deep concerns that ISIS appeared to be
expanding to the point where they could have threatened
sensitive petroleum port facilities and improved their longer-
term capability to move against oil production facilities in
the interior regions to the south.
But now the immediate risk appears to be greatly reduced,
thanks to the current offensive operations by militias loyal to
the Government of National Accord, which appears close to
defeating ISIS in Sirte.
I give great credit to the administration, our military
forces that are assisting militias loyal to the new Government
of National Accord, and our international partners for what
appears to be progress against ISIS in Libya. If it were not
for their efforts, I believe that we could have faced a real
risk of ISIS gaining access to revenue-generating oil resources
in Libya, as it has done in Syria.
That said, no single tactical success is sufficient to
avoid this kind of strategic risk. While militias loyal to the
Government of National Accord are fighting ISIS in Sirte,
General Haftar, who is aligned with the house of
representatives in Tobruk is positioning his forces to the
south of Sirte where they are watching and waiting. Although
General Haftar and the Tobruk house oppose ISIS, they have not
agreed to support the Government of National Accord.
Mr. Winer, this appears to be a moment ripe for aggressive
political intervention. Our allies, Egypt and the United Arab
Emirates, have a history of supporting General Haftar and the
house of representatives in Tobruk. If General Haftar goes to
war with the militias loyal to the Government of National
Accord, there will only be further chaos, and ISIS will have an
opportunity to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and will
resume the expansion in Libya.
What are we, the U.N., and EU doing to bring General Haftar
and the Tobruk house of representatives together with the
Government of National Accord?
Mr. Winer. Thank you, Senator.
I must say that each of you worry about the same things
that I worry about. The anxieties I have heard today are
consistent with the things that we are worrying about and
thinking about every day when it comes to Libya.
Senator Markey. I guess in your answer could you
specifically tell me if we are working with Egypt and the UAE
to push General Haftar and the Tobruk house towards an
agreement with the new government. Are we doing that right now?
Mr. Winer. Egypt and the UAE, like every other country
neighboring Libya and every other country in the region, have
signed on to both expressly and in bilateral discussions with
us, as well as in multilateral fora, on supporting the
Government of National Accord and working to get people they
have been close to into the Government of National accord.
Secretary Kerry said in Vienna last month that the United
States wants to see General Haftar be part of a solution. We
see him as playing a potentially significant role, but he is
not going to be the only one, clearly, playing a significant
role. And it has to be under the GNA and within the context of
a civilian-led government. We are working on that and we are
consulting with the UAE and Egypt on that, among others. And I
feel we have a very great degree of alignment and a
constructive fashion that could well lead to positive results
as we have already seen positive results of these past weeks in
Sirte.
Senator Markey. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Senator Gardner?
Senator Gardner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I do not know if Senator Markey mentioned this to you or
not, but a couple of months ago we had the opportunity to
travel to Saudi Arabia and visit with Deputy Crown Prince, the
Crown Prince, and others in the royal family, as well as the
Foreign Minister and other members of the government. And one
of the questions to I believe it was the Crown Prince, I
believe, was the situation in Libya, the situation in Syria,
and when it came specifically to the question in Libya, the
question was asked, how do you think it compares to Syria. And
I believe the response was simply Syria is a piece of cake or
will be a piece of cake compared to Libya should this collapse
occur. And perhaps you had already mentioned that, and I do not
want to mischaracterize the statement.
But could you perhaps explain how that could be the case
and whether or not you agree with comments, such comments like
you look at the Crown Prince's remarks that Syria is a piece of
cake compared to Libya? And could you perhaps compare that to
comments made yesterday by the President saying that ISIS ranks
are shrinking and its morale is sinking, and is that really
consistent with what the Crown Prince is saying and what you
are seeing on the ground in Libya?
Mr. Winer. Senator, if you look at where things were--I
guess you were there 10 weeks ago, roughly?
Senator Gardner. Roughly.
Mr. Winer. The Government of National Accord has been in
place precisely about that amount of time in Tripoli, and since
it has come into place, bit by bit the Libyans have configured
themselves to begin to take Da'esh on. They have secured
increasing support domestically. It is not complete, but I
would note that a majority of the house of representatives has
been ready to support the cabinet selected by the Government of
National Accord and Presidency Council. They have not been
permitted to vote by a minority. And so we do have some
political limitations, but you have seen support for this
government grow.
The Libyan people expect more out of the Presidency Council
and the GNA than they have gotten. That is normal and natural.
People all over the world want more out of their governments
than they tend to get, and there are frustrations with what the
government can actually do. The government needs to do more.
But the progress being made is being made on the ground,
sir, every day right now. So I think pessimistic snapshots in
Libya are absolutely legitimate. There are lots of grounds for
pessimism. There are also grounds for optimism and real
progress. If we were today in a situation where you had still
competing governments, no Government of National Accord, no
political road map forward, no progress against Da'esh, no
prospects for getting the oil turned on again and addressing
the mismatch, we would be in a much worse situation, a much
more threatening situation than the one we are in.
Now, could the advances of the past few months still be
reversed? Yes. The situation is fragile. We cannot say we are
in a safe place, that Libya is in a safe place. Libyans are
going to have to continue to come together and work together to
address grievances and differences for the common good, and it
is our job as the United States to try and encourage them to do
that, to encourage other countries to help them do that, and to
be part of an alignment and unity-building process. That is
hard to do in any country. It is very hard in Libya, but it is
not futile. It is beginning to happen and we are seeing some
positive results as a consequence.
Senator Gardner. And I apologize if I am asking you a
question that has already been covered here, but the
administration's request for Libya was down from $35 million in
fiscal year 2016 to $20 million in 2017. That is in State
Department-administered funds. Why is that the case?
Mr. Winer. The absorptive capacity of the Libyan government
in the past has been very limited. Our focus is on delivering
services to communities, helping the government through the
transition. Public financial administration, which I mentioned
earlier, is the kind of thing, for example, we are doing,
working with the constitutional drafting assembly to get the
constitution process completed. We are trying to act to
synergize other activities working with the U.N., the EU, and a
number of other countries rather than to do it all ourselves.
So these modest amounts are there to help fill the territory
where there are gaps and to provide some impulses to help them
go forward.
But the core of the work right now has been political
first. It is political, security, and then it is development,
and all three of those things are going to have to go together.
If Libya gets its acts together successfully so Libyans
continue to come together, they should again be able to finance
these activities, but they have to begin pumping their oil
again, close to the 1.5 million they used to pump, at least a
million barrels a day, and then they can begin to work through
creating a national budget and starting to invest in their own
infrastructure and projects again. So we are trying to jump
start things, but the vast preponderance of the funding is
likely to come from Libya, as it should.
Senator Gardner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Senator Cardin?
Senator Cardin. Well, I am encouraged by some of your
comments. Obviously, this is not an easy situation particularly
the three goals that you mentioned, including that the people
see benefit. I think that is a critically important part for
stability in Libya. And you have mentioned that the oil flow
was part of that. You have mentioned security as part of that.
If the oil flow goes to help the people of Libya, then they see
the benefit of it. If it goes to fuel corruption, they do not.
If security is there to help the welfare of the general
population, they see the benefit. If it is there to preserve a
corrupt regime, they do not see the benefit.
So I just really want to underscore my just request. And I
know the administration is committed to democratic institutions
in the countries that we work in and fighting corruption and
dealing with those issues. But to me unless that is in the
priorities from the beginning, it gets lost as we go through
the process.
So I just really want to underscore what I hope is your
commitment as our representative on this that it will be clear
that as you go through the process of reconciliation and
developing a unity government that there is accountability in
there for good governance so that the people of Libya can see
the benefits of what is going on, that there can be the type of
support for a unity government to succeed, and we really can
have a long-term stability in that very important country in
the region.
Mr. Winer. Senator, the young people of Libya are the
country's future. At some level that is a cliche but at some
level it is such a profoundly true statement about these
countries in North Africa and the Middle East that have such a
preponderance of younger people. The degree to which they are
interested in political dialogue, reconciliation, and finding a
way forward in their country is very impressive.
The interim government, the Government of National Accord,
has to be successful enough to give the new Libya a chance to
be born and to build, and everything that we do in Libya as the
United States needs to be consistent with the values you just
expressed and the values of the American people at its
foundation, which are very similar to the values of most
Libyans that I have been exposed to. They say things that are
very similar to what you have just said to me.
Senator Gardner. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Menendez?
Senator Menendez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Winer, thank you for your work in this regard.
I think this is a particularly important hearing because we
should be riveted on what, if anything, the United States can
do beyond what it is doing to assist the Libyan people in
building a country that a mad dictator had systematically
dismantled over the course of 4 decades and ultimately how to
bring Libya into the community of nations with accountable
institutions of governance, respect for human rights, security
for law-abiding citizens, and a productive economy that
contributes to, not detracts from global resource in other
markets.
But this complicated reality on the ground is one that has
been centuries in the making. It is a transactional society
with hundreds of militias, competing ethnic and tribal
affiliation, very competitive regional loyalties that on any
single day can include homegrown and foreign-born radical
Islamists seeking to spread jihad, neighbors simply seeking to
defend their homes and families, gangs stealing oil and wealth
and engaging in gratuitous violence, tribes and states of cold
and hot wars against one another for generations, regional
actors in three distinct Libyan regions exploiting or
protecting natural resources like oil and water, just to
mention some.
So what I am trying to get an insight is what could an
intervening party like the international community have imposed
on these competing and conflicting groups to bring them to a
resolution. We had a democratic process, which by all accounts
produced some relatively free and fair national elections in
2012, peacefully transitioned power from one elected body to an
elected body, seated a national parliament that established
legitimate government, all within the first year of the
anniversary of Qaddafi's death.
So what is it that can be done by the international
community here to impose upon these parties the ability to
achieve the goals that we all collectively want?
Mr. Winer. Thank you, Senator.
All the problems that you just articulated are real, and
they should not be glossed over and they should not be treated
lightly. The challenges that any Libyan faces are substantial.
But it also has a group of people who are patriotic, have some
education, have some vision of what their country could be, and
are distributed in many different parts of the country.
National dialogue and reconciliation, political mechanisms,
political activities are central to the future of the country
and having the country emerge from this period of fragmentation
that it has just gone through.
Our work is to align countries in the region, all their
neighbors and regional players, as well as Europeans and us in
support of a common approach to strengthen national
institutions so they can combat at least some of those threats
that you have just articulated long enough for Libya to evolve
to its next phase, supported by the considerable natural wealth
it can continue to generate from oil at 1.5 million barrels a
day in its current capacity, which could go up to 2 million I
am told by oil experts.
Senator Menendez. So let us talk about that. If our goal is
to bring other nations in the region in harmony----
Mr. Winer. Yes, sir.
Senator Menendez.--with that goal, then it seems to me that
is a concern insofar as that despite pledges to support the
diplomatic process in the Government of National Accord, there
have been reports that numerous U.S. allies, including Egypt,
Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, and Turkey have violated the
U.N. arms embargo against Libya, supplying arms to both sides
of the conflict. And I understand now--and maybe you can
respond to this--that the administration has expressed a
willingness to consider loosening the embargo to arm the GNA in
its fight against the Islamic State.
How can the administration ensure that its allies are
abiding by international law and not undermining the unity
government? And how can the United States ensure that the
Government of National Accord is strong enough to control any
arms that are supplied?
Mr. Winer. Lots of questions embedded in that question,
sir.
Let us start with the arms embargo. We have made no
findings about violations. The U.N. panel of experts in March I
believe--March or April--issued a report which described the
issues that you have raised without making any final findings.
We talked to--I have talked to all the countries you have
mentioned about the need not to support competing forces but to
support a unified Government of National Accord, and I believe
we have very considerable alignment on that. I was just in the
region last week on these very issues.
The idea behind the exemption to the arms embargo is to
provide a uniform set of weapons that can provide relatively
integrated counterterrorism capabilities to address the threat
from the Islamic State and other terrorist forces near-term and
medium-term and to do so in a way that is trackable and
traceable and subject to oversight so it does not disappear, go
to bad places, go to the wrong people. That is the idea, and
the idea would be for the Libyan government to ask that of the
United States and of other countries at the same time and to
have any exemption get notified through the U.N. so it is
visible, can be seen by the P5 and other U.N. Security Council
members and by the whole world, and then as a result of being
transparent, be more subject to oversight and accountability
for the Libyan people, for the region, and for the world.
Senator Menendez. If I may, Mr. Chairman, one last
question.
That takes a condition precedent that the GNA is
sufficiently strong and capable enough even of giving that
process to ensure that it can control the arms that it is
supplied. Have we come to that conclusion?
Mr. Winer. Yes, but it is also part of the responsibility
of any country providing those weapons to ensure that. It in
practice can be a shared responsibility. I am happy to brief
further on that, Senator.
Senator Menendez. I would forward to that because, you
know, I used to hold up weapons sales to some countries because
I feared that in fact they did not have the wherewithal to do
that. And sure enough, we lost a lot of weapons to ISIS. I am
not talking about Libya now, but in other locations. And we
need not to do that again.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Just to follow up on that, what is occurring relative to
Da'esh, or ISIS? You know, we had estimated 5 to 6,500 troops
there, and yet it seems they are falling away rapidly. Are they
just blending in with the rest of the country? What do we think
is occurring with the rest of Da'esh?
Mr. Winer. Mr. Chairman, I still have a fragmentary picture
of what is going on because the situation is so dynamic. I have
heard reports of elements of Da'esh bleeding away to the south
and to the west, both in connection with the current offensive
by forces to the east and west of Sirte. They have clearly lost
several hundred fighters. I was talking with a member of the
Presidency Council late last night about the state of play. He
told me that the forces of the Government of National Accord
had essentially come into the City of Sirte from the west and
now had geographic control of the entire territory of the west
and the south, that they still did not have control from about
7 kilometers east of Sirte, that there have been mines laid and
improvised explosive devices and that kind of thing which were
impeding their ability to get to the rest of the way into
Sirte. So I am hearing both of the establishment of potential
cells in other parts of Libya and of very substantial losses of
personnel and by the Islamic State in Sirte to the forces
aligned with the Government of National Accord as they have
entered and regained that territory. I am still trying to
develop further information, but that is the core of what we
have seen so far.
Now, before this happened, we were already seeing something
very interesting. I mentioned earlier that Da'esh is predatory
and does not generate income or wealth of its own. It simply
steals it. Sirte had already been devastated in the course of
the revolution. Relatively speaking, it was resource poor.
Indeed, there are grievances among ordinary people in Sirte
that are legitimate because it never came back after the
revolution to oust Qaddafi. So Da'esh was beginning to run into
resource constraints in Libya, which I think were beginning to
affect its success.
Now, I fully expect that the successes of the past few
weeks will be responded to by elements of Da'esh, and there are
domestic Libyan extremists as well. There is Al Qaeda in the
Maghreb. We should not forget them. There is Al-Mourabitoun.
There is Ansar al-Sharia, two different elements of Ansar al-
Sharia. They are still there. So the fight against terrorism in
Libya is by no means over. It is going to require a sustained
effort over an extended period. But the geographic control that
becomes some of the base for the financial sustainment of ISIL
is dropping away. And there are different types of Da'esh.
There are people who are core believers, and there are people
for whom it may be a better paycheck or opportunity this week
but something else may be better next week.
The Chairman. One of the things that we typically have to
expend a large amount of resources on is building up a military
through training and making sure there is a unified force. What
is happening in that regard in Tripoli--I mean, excuse me--
throughout Libya either by us or by other governments to be
building up an actual trained military force that can, in fact,
do the things that we know need to be done there?
Mr. Winer. Mr. Chairman, the Presidency Council has been in
place for about 75 days now in Tripoli. About a month ago, they
announced that they would create a presidential guard. They
have yet to ask foreigners for help on that. I expect that is
going to come. And they began organizing the current effort
against Da'esh in Sirte which involved the creation of
operations rooms to take them on which, as we have seen, has
been remarkably successful, but no one should be overly
optimistic that it is all over. It is not going to be.
Meanwhile, General Haftar has continued his efforts to
reclaim Benghazi, supported by other elements of the Libya
national army. He has also undertaken efforts in Derna which
previously were preceded by domestic Libyan extremists kicking
out foreign extremists.
So the picture is not a simple one. We are going to have to
collectively--we being a collective, not just the United
States--support the creation of the uniform police and military
that can provide security on a national basis, that are still
respectful of localities and the need for local security, in
addition to national security, as we have in our own federalist
system. And that is going to be a multiyear project. It will
have to be directed on an interim basis by the Government of
National Accord for the next year, year and a half, whatever
the term of its existence, and then by a successor government
under the new constitution that they will, we hope, adopt.
The Chairman. Let me ask you one last question. We are, I
guess just the way we know things, aware that outside of Sirte,
actually out away from the city, there were training camps that
had thousands of Da'esh people in them, and they were, as I
understand it, not near urban populations but out in training
camps. And we, of course, were waiting for a unity government
to be formed and did not want to be involved there without that
occurring.
But was there an opportunity missed to do severe damage, if
you will, to Da'esh while they were out away from Sirte, or was
that ever the case?
Mr. Winer. The United States has some criteria by which it
evaluates when it can engage against terrorism. A critical
element of that criteria is imminent threat to Americans, and
there are some other components to it but that is a very
important one.
The President has demonstrated his willingness to take
action as we did against the terrorist training camp in
Sabratha in February and as we did against the Islamic State
amir earlier and as we did against another terrorist figure
before that. The administration continues to be ready to take
action when that action is warranted by the situation and meets
the criteria the President has set for such action. That is
really all I can say.
The Chairman. Well, I will say then it sounds to me like
that yes, there was that opportunity, that yes, they were in
training camps out away from Sirte, and that at the time, we
did not feel like those conditions that you just described
existed, and that in the interim, they moved back into the
urban areas. But the criteria was not there for us to take
action, if I am hearing what you are saying.
Mr. Winer. I cannot address the issue further, Senator,
other than to note that the Islamic State has been very
substantially pushed back from the geographic control that it
had recently as a month ago.
The Chairman. Senator Flake?
Senator Flake. No.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions? [No response.]
The Chairman. Do you have anything else you would like to
say or feel like you might have left an impression you did not
want to leave because you were cut off?
Mr. Winer. Mr. Chairman, I think the most important thing I
want to leave you with is I feel we do have a strategy, and the
strategy has been to counter fragmentation, to counter chaos by
working to get Libyans and their neighbors and the region
aligned in support of a Government of National Accord to
operate in a transitional way to unite Libya and to bring them
together in the process of reconciliation that will potentially
enable Libya to build a state that functions on behalf of its
people.
I think the questions you and your colleagues have asked me
today have been to the point, and I welcome the opportunity to
testify before you.
The Chairman. Well, thank you very much for your service to
our country.
We are going to leave the record open until the close of
business Friday. If you would fairly promptly respond to any
written questions that will come by the close of business
Friday, we would appreciate it. You can respond after they come
in, of course.
As I said in my opening comments--and this certainly is not
directed at you in any way. It is directed at our country. I
felt like our involvement in Libya was very poorly thought out.
The legal basis that was thrown out by Mr. Koh from Yale was
pretty unbelievable to me that we were not involved in
hostilities while we were bombing the country. So that part to
me was very difficult to digest.
And then for us to decapitate a government and just leave
it there and here we are in the year 2016 after this occurring
in 2011 I think speaks to what Senator Cardin said, and that is
when we go into these engagements, we need to at least be
thinking 30 days out after, and in this case, certainly that
what was not occurred. And there have been a lot of people
tortured, a lot of lives ruined, a lot of problems that have
been created throughout the region that have been very
destabilizing and has bled into Europe now. And I think we can
learn from this.
It still appears to me that we have a really light touch,
very, very light touch, in a country that, as Senator Gardner
and Senator Markey mentioned, could in fact breed problems far
greater than Syria by some onlookers that are in the
neighborhood. So it still does not appear to me that we have
come together around something that has a sense of urgency or
seriousness to it relative to the negativity that can occur if
Libya fails.
So I do not know if you want to respond to that or just
agree with me and wish more was happening. [Laughter.]
Mr. Winer. Senator, we are doing the best we can. Mr.
Chairman, I am doing the best that I can.
The Chairman. You know this is not directed at you in any
way.
Mr. Winer. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. With that, the meeting is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:25 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
----------
Additional Material Submitted for the Record
Responses to Questions for the Record Submitted to
Special Envoy Jonathan Winer by Senator Boxer
Question 1. Following the ouster of former Libyan President
Muammar Qaddafi, Libyan authorities did not allow a foreign force to
provide for security during Libya's political transition and
development a military force. Some U.S. officials have asserted that
this is one of the reasons for Libya's current instability.
Given Libya's fractious political and military environment, in
which competing armed groups vie for influence, what efforts are
underway to build a national military force under the authority of a
Libyan unity government?
Answer. The United States supports the efforts of Prime Minister
al-Sarraj's government to establish civilian command and control over
an inclusive, national Libyan military. We also support PM al-Sarraj's
efforts to build the necessary defense institutions required to firmly
position a national Libyan military under the authority of a civilian
government. These institutions have never existed in Libya.
Initial headway was made when the Government of National Accord
(GNA) announced in April that it would form a joint command to
coordinate counter terrorism efforts. It has since formed four regional
operations rooms focused on the fight against Da'esh and other
terrorist groups. The impact of these decisions is already evident on
the ground, as GNA-aligned forces have made substantial progress
against Da'esh in and around its stronghold of Sirte.
Along with twenty other countries and four international
organizations, we affirmed in the May 16 Vienna Communique that the GNA
is the sole legitimate recipient of international security assistance
to Libya and that the international community will support the GNA by
providing security assistance to counter UN-designated terrorist groups
and to combat Da'esh throughout the country. By providing assistance to
forces under the GNA's command and reinforcing the UN arms embargo to
ensure weapons do not go to other groups, we can help empower al-Sarraj
to bring more elements into the inclusive, civilian-controlled, and
geographically-diverse security forces that Libya requires.
Question 2. How are we currently working with our European and
Arab partners and allies to facilitate Libya's transition?
Specifically, how are we working to reconcile competing regional
support for General Heftar's forces in the east and the Misratan forces
in the west?
Answer. The United States works closely with the international
community, including our European and Arab partners, to support Prime
Minister Fayez al-Sarraj, the Libyan Government of National Accord
(GNA), and the efforts of UN Special Representative Martin Kobler.
Since the GNA entered Tripoli on March 30, Prime Minister al-Sarraj has
undertaken a series of steps to stabilize the country, including
measures to form a Presidential Guard, establish a joint command to
combat Da'esh, and ensure that ministries and acting ministers can get
to work to serve the Libyan people, pending formal action by the Libyan
parliament. Along with our international partners, the United States is
supporting Prime Minister al-Sarraj's government as it moves forward
with these positive steps.
At the Vienna Ministerial meeting on Libya on May 16, four
international organizations and 21 countries, including the key
regional states, reiterated the international community's commitment to
ceasing support to and official contact with parallel institutions and
to support the GNA as Libya's sole legitimate recipient of
international security assistance. We support Prime Minister al-
Sarraj's efforts to build an inclusive national security architecture.
We are looking at ways in which General Haftar and forces under his
leadership will integrate within a security structure under the GNA's
civilian command and control.
We urge all Libyan forces to work to enhance coordination and
implement a unified command to direct the fight against Da'esh in
Libya. We are ready to respond to the Libyan government's requests for
training and equipping vetted, GNA-aligned forces from throughout
Libya. The UN arms embargo allows for the GNA to request the weapons it
needs to secure the country and to combat Da'esh. The GNA has voiced
its intention to submit appropriate arms embargo exemption requests to
the UN Libya Sanctions Committee to procure necessary lethal arms and
materiel to counter UN-designated terrorist groups and to combat Da'esh
throughout the country. We will fully support these exemption efforts
while continuing to reinforce the UN arms embargo.
Question. Following the withdrawal of U.S. personnel from Libya,
the United States suspended the majority of its security assistance
programs for Libya.
Moving forward, what options is the United States considering for
near-term security assistance for Libya? What conditions need to be in
place to resume security assistance programs in Libya?
Answer. Supporting Libya's Government of National Accord (GNA) and
its capacity to address Libya's economic, humanitarian, and security
challenges is essential to advancing U.S. national security and
stability objectives throughout the Maghreb, Sahel, and Mediterranean
regions. In coordination with the UN and other partners, U.S.
engagement in Libya remains focused on helping Libya's political
transition produce a legitimate, accountable, and effective national
government. U.S. government support remains essential to strengthening
Libya's democratic, governance, and security institutions, thereby
supporting stability and regional security. As we are already seeing, a
strong
GNA partner is critical to counter Da'esh effectively.
The United States is prepared to provide security assistance to
Libya as part of international efforts, including border security,
counterterrorism, rule of law, countering violent extremism, clearing
unexploded ordnance, criminal justice reform, and securing conventional
weapons. As the GNA becomes more established, we will continue to
examine programs opportunities to determine the appropriate size and
scope. We are also exploring how we can use existing U.S. programs to
contribute to training and equipping GNA forces, in response to
requests from Prime Minister al-Sarraj.
We appreciate the $20 million Congress provided for assistance to
Libya in FY 2016, which will enable us to respond quickly to current
andemerging needs. Our foreign assistance funding allows the United
States to join other donor countries who are leading stabilization and
security efforts. For example, we intend to contribute up to $4 million
to the UNDP-led Stabilization Fund for Libya (SFL), subject to
Congressional approval, which will provide support for small-scale
infrastructure projects, and we look forward to working with you when
we notify these funds.
Our FY 2017 assistance request for Libya is $20.5 million and we
expect targeted opportunities for new programming in FY 2017. Our FY
2017 request will support programs to increase security and
counterterrorism capabilities while creating a more inclusive and human
rights-respecting national government. U.S. foreign assistance funds
will build Libyan governance capacity, which is crucial to stopping the
spread of terrorist groups.
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