    [Senate Hearing 114-500]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                           S. Hrg. 114-500

                              PENDING LEGISLATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                       PUBLIC LANDS, FORESTS, AND MINING

                                     OF THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

              S. 1167                          S. 2018

              S. 1423                          S. 2223

              S. 1510                          S. 2379

              S. 1699                          S. 2383

              S. 1777

                                   ----------

                                 APRIL 21, 2016

                                   ----------

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                           Printed for the use of the
                   Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

             Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov

                                                            S. Hrg. 114-500

                              PENDING LEGISLATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                       PUBLIC LANDS, FORESTS, AND MINING

                                     OF THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

              S. 1167                          S. 2018

              S. 1423                          S. 2223

              S. 1510                          S. 2379

              S. 1699                          S. 2383

              S. 1777

                                   __________

                                 APRIL 21, 2016

                                   __________

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                           Printed for the use of the
                   Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

             Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov

                                       ______

                             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    21-976                         WASHINGTON : 2018
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
      For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing
      Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800;
             DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC,
                              Washington, DC 20402-0001

                   COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                        LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman
    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
    MIKE LEE, Utah                       BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
    JEFF FLAKE, Arizona                  DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
    STEVE DAINES, Montana                AL FRANKEN, Minnesota
    BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
    CORY GARDNER, Colorado               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
    ROB PORTMAN, Ohio                    MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota            ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
    LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee           ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts
    SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia
                                     ------

               Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests, and Mining

                            JOHN BARRASSO, Chairman
    SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO                 RON WYDEN
    JAMES E. RISCH                       DEBBIE STABENOW
    MIKE LEE                             AL FRANKEN
    STEVE DAINES                         JOE MANCHIN III
    BILL CASSIDY                         MARTIN HEINRICH
    CORY GARDNER                         MAZIE K. HIRONO
    JOHN HOEVEN                          ELIZABETH WARREN
    JEFF FLAKE
    LAMAR ALEXANDER
                          Colin Hayes, Staff Director
                    Patrick J. McCormick III, Chief Counsel
      Lucy Murfitt, Senior Counsel and Public Lands and Natural Resources
                                    Director
               Angela Becker-Dippmann, Democratic Staff Director
                    Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
                    David Brooks, Democratic General Counsel

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Barrasso, Hon. John, Subcommittee Chairman and a U.S. Senator
      from Wyoming...................................................     1
    Wyden, Hon. Ron, Subcommittee Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator
      from Oregon....................................................     2
    Lee, Hon. Mike, a U.S. Senator from Utah.........................     3
    Flake, Hon. Jeff, a U.S. Senator from Arizona....................     4
    Risch, Hon. James E., a U.S. Senator from Idaho..................     4

                                   WITNESSES

    Casamassa, Glenn, Associate Deputy Chief, National Forest System,
      U.S. Forest Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture............     8
    Pool, Mike, Acting Deputy Director for Operations, Bureau of Land
      Management, U.S. Department of the Interior....................    25
    Whelan, Major General Martin, Director of Future Operations,
      Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, Headquarters, U.S. Air
      Force; accompanied by Miller, Jennifer, Deputy Assistant
      Secretary for Installations, U.S. Air Force....................    55

              ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

    Alaska Bible College:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    84
    Alderson, George and Frances:
        Letter for the Record........................................    86
    Alexander, Alice:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    87
    American Forest Resource Council:
        Letter for the Record regarding S. 1510......................    88
        Letter for the Record regarding S. 1699......................    91
    American Rivers:
        Letter for the Record regarding S. 1423......................    94
        Letter for the Record regarding S. 1510......................    96
        Letter for the Record regarding S. 1699......................    98
    Bailey, Marcia:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   100
    Baker, Dr. Norman:
        Letter for the Record........................................   101
    Barrasso, Hon. John:
        Opening Statement............................................     1
    Bilodeau, Katheryn (and Jeremiah Busch):
        Letter for the Record........................................   102
    Blackshear, Sherry and Ronald:
        Letter for the Record........................................   106
    Bowen, Betsy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   107
    Boxer, Hon. Barbara:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    64
    Brandt, Vicky:
        Letter for the Record........................................   108
    Brownley, Hon. Julia, et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   111
    Brumlik, Mr. & Mrs. Daniel:
        Letter for the Record........................................   109
    Brunstad, Harold:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   110
    Capps, Hon. Lois, et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   111
    Casamassa, Glenn:
        Opening Statement............................................     8
        Written Testimony............................................    10
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    74
    Cascadia Wildlands:
        Letter for the Record........................................   113
    Chilcoat, Rose:
        Letter for the Record........................................   115
    Clark/Gamble, Carolyn and Rick:
        Letter for the Record........................................   118
    Combs, Tom and Kristin:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   119
    Crapo, Hon. Mike:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   120
    Crawford, Dennis:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   122
    Curtis, Richard:
        Letter for the Record........................................   123
    DeVane, Connor:
        Letter for the Record........................................   125
    Dobkevich, Judith:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   126
    Dubrosky, Doug:
        Letter for the Record........................................   127
    Durr, Greg:
        Letter for the Record........................................   128
    Durr, Rebecca:
        Letter for the Record........................................   129
    Ecotrust Forest Management:
        Letter for the Record........................................   130
    Farr, Hon. Sam, et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   111
    Feltham, Wendy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   132
    Flake, Hon. Jeff:
        Opening Statement............................................     4
    Friends of the Kalmiopsis and Soda Mountain Wilderness Council:
        Letter for the Record........................................   133
    Gershten, Dr. Mitchell:
        Letter for the Record........................................   137
    Giedt, Jean:
        Letter for the Record........................................   138
    Graber, Michael:
        Letter for the Record........................................   139
    Hansen, Bev:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   140
    Havrilla, Robert:
        Letter for the Record........................................   141
    Hayden, Anne:
        Letter for the Record........................................   142
    Hazelleaf, Tom:
        Letter for the Record........................................   143
    Hill, Paul and Ann:
        Letter for the Record........................................   144
    Hilscher, Hilary (and Neil Johannsen):
        Letter for the Record........................................   145
    Huesemann, Drs. Michael and Joyce:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   146
    Janzen, Gayle:
        Letter for the Record........................................   148
    Jayne, Jerry:
        Letter for the Record........................................   150
    Jeffries, Tim:
        Letter for the Record........................................   151
    Johnson, Reid:
        Letter for the Record........................................   152
    Johnson, Steven:
        Letter for the Record........................................   153
    Kalmiopsis Audubon Society:
        Letter for the Record........................................   154
    Klamath-Siskiyou Wildlands Center:
        Letter for the Record........................................   156
    Klein, Nora:
        Letter for the Record........................................   157
    Kloefkorn, Walter:
        Letter for the Record........................................   158
    Kotler, Danielia:
        Letter for the Record........................................   159
    Krafchuk, Bonnie:
        Letter for the Record........................................   160
    Kring, Juli:
        Letter for the Record........................................   161
    Kuntz, Laurie:
        Letter for the Record........................................   162
    Lambeth, Larry:
        Letter for the Record........................................   163
    Langton, Kimber:
        Letter for the Record........................................   164
    Larkin, Beau:
        Letter for the Record........................................   165
    Lasley, Louise:
        Letter for the Record........................................   166
    Lee, Hon. Mike:
        Opening Statement............................................     3
    Lipschik, Matthew:
        Letter for the Record........................................   167
    Lish, Christopher:
        Letter for the Record........................................   168
    Liss, Tonia:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   169
    Loeschen, Doris:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   170
    Magliola, Lawrence:
        Letter for the Record........................................   171
    Mantooth, Roberta and James:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   172
    McCarthy, Michael:
        Letter for the Record........................................   173
    McKeon, Renae:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   175
    McPhee, Joe:
        Letter for the Record........................................   176
    Meeks, Mark:
        Letter for the Record........................................   177
    Menard, Jana:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   178
    Messmer, Jim:
        Letter for the Record........................................   179
    Moser, Rich:
        Letter for the Record........................................   180
    Mueller, Tara:
        Letter for the Record........................................   181
    Murray, Hon. Patty:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    62
    Nagel, Clinton:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   182
    National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior:
        Statement for the Record regarding S. 1510...................    53
    Neumann, David:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   184
    North Olympic Timber Action Committee:
        Letter for the Record........................................   186
    Null, Ciry:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   190
    Oakes, Elizabeth:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   191
    Oliver, Judith:
        Letter for the Record........................................   192
    Olson, Dr. Sherry:
        Letter for the Record........................................   193
    Olympic Peninsula Audubon Society:
        Letter for the Record........................................   194
    Oregon Wild, et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   196
    Orzechowski, Larry:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   198
    Penry, Marlene:
        Letter for the Record........................................   199
    (The) Pew Charitable Trusts:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   200
    Pool, Mike:
        Opening Statement............................................    25
        Written Testimony............................................    27
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    77
    Port of Port Angeles, Washington:
        Letter for the Record........................................   203
    Potter, Dave and Kirsten:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   205
    Probst, Richard and Kelly:
        Letter for the Record........................................   206
    Rankin, Michael:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   207
    Reed, Mary:
        Letter for the Record........................................   248
    Risch, Hon. James E.:
        Opening Statement............................................     4
        Written Statement for the Record regarding S. 1167...........     5
        Written Statement for the Record regarding S. 1777...........     6
    Rogue River Coalition:
        Letter for the Record........................................   249
    Rogue Riverkeeper:
        Letter for the Record........................................   251
    Roney, Scott:
        Letter for the Record........................................   252
    Ross, B. Elliot:
        Letter for the Record........................................   253
    Rothschild, Hon. Jonathan:
        Letter for the Record........................................   254
    Russell, Alex:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   255
    Serra, Dawn:
        Letter for the Record........................................   256
    Shaw, Nancy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   257
    Shaw, William:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   258
    Sierra Club:
        Letter for the Record........................................   259
    Smith, Charles:
        Letter for the Record........................................   261
    Smith, Vicki:
        Letter for the Record........................................   262
    Strahan, Dave:
        Letter for the Record........................................   263
    Sutherland, Hugh:
        Letter for the Record........................................   265
    Temple, Ray (and Stephanie Hazen):
        Statement for the Record.....................................   266
    Thomas, Sally:
        Letter for the Record........................................   267
    Trout Unlimited:
        Letter for the Record regarding S. 1423......................   268
        Letter for the Record regarding S. 1699......................   270
    Twight-Alexander, Susanne:
        Letter for the Record........................................   272
    Utah School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   273
    Uyenishi, Steve:
        Letter for the Record........................................   279
    Wagner-Starley, Christie:
        Letter for the Record........................................   280
    Whelan, Major General Martin:
        Opening Statement............................................    55
        Written Testimony............................................    57
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    81
    Wiese, Deborah (and Ruth Haasl):
        Letter for the Record........................................   282
    Wilcox, Tom:
        Letter for the Record........................................   283
    Wild Rogue Outfitters Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   285
    (The) Wilderness Society:
        Letter for the Record........................................   286
    Wilderness Watch and Friends of the Clearwater:
        Letter for the Record regarding S. 1167......................   293
        Letter for the Record regarding S. 1777......................   296
    Wilderness Watch, et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   303
    Wolper, Steven:
        Letter for the Record........................................   307
    Wyden, Hon. Ron:
        Opening Statement............................................     2
    Yoder, Chris:
        Statement for the Record.....................................   308

                                   __________

    This official record contains a random selection of statements for the
    record submitted for this hearing. A complete record of all statements
    submitted for the record is on file with the Senate Energy Committee.

    The text for each of the bills addressed at this hearing can be found
    on the committee's website at: http://www.energy.senate.gov/public/
    index.cfm/hearings-and-business-meetings? ID=A9500EE4-7F6A-400F-8C58-
    1F2C5A3CFF93.

                              PENDING LEGISLATION

                                  ----------

                            THURSDAY, APRIL 21, 2016

                                   U.S. Senate,
      Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests and Mining,
                     Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:34 p.m. in
    Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John
    Barrasso, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING

        Senator Barrasso. The Subcommittee will come to order.
        The purpose of today's hearing is to receive testimony on
    nine bills pending before this Subcommittee.
        Three of these bills designate hundreds of thousands of
    acres of new wilderness and add hundreds of miles of river
    segments to the National Wild and Scenic Rivers System. These
    include: S. 1423, the Central Coast Heritage Protection Act,
    sponsored by Senator Boxer; S. 1510, the Wild Olympic
    Wilderness and Wild and Scenic Rivers Act, sponsored by Senator
    Murray; and S. 1699, the Oregon Wildlands Act, sponsored by
    Senator Wyden.
        Already 110 million acres of lands have been added to the
    wilderness system. Additionally, tens of millions of acres are
    protected as ``roadless'' by the Forest Service and the Bureau
    of Land Management (BLM). In my view we must take a more
    balanced approach between adding lands to the wilderness system
    and Congress releasing lands. The agency currently manages
    wilderness study areas to be managed in accordance with the
    land management plans.
        These bills also propose to designate thousands of acres of
    potential wilderness. Potential wilderness gives the agency
    authority to remove all uses prohibited by the Wilderness Act
    on multiple use lands and provides the agency with
    discretionary authority at some future date to convert
    potential wilderness to designated wilderness without needing
    any additional authority or approval from Congress. This is
    troubling to me as it could have far reaching impacts for the
    management of our forests and our public lands.
        Today we also have two Idaho bills on the agenda that
    revisit past wilderness and wild and scenic river designations.
    Senator Crapo's bill, S. 1167, the Owyhee Wilderness Areas
    Boundary Modifications Act, would authorize the continued use
    of motorized vehicles to herd livestock in certain wilderness
    areas. Senator Risch's bill, S. 1777, would amend the Wild and
    Scenic Rivers Act to maintain or replace certain facilities and
    structures at Smith Gulch. In these two cases Congress needs to
    provide further direction to the agencies so we can actually
    carry out the legislative intent.
        The remaining four bills on the agenda include: S. 2018, to
    convey a federal reversionary interest in Glennallen, Alaska,
    sponsored by Chairman Murkowski; S. 2223, to transfer
    administrative jurisdiction over certain BLM land to the VA for
    inclusion in the Black Hills National Cemetery, sponsored by
    Senator Thune; S. 2379, to convey a federal reversionary
    interest to the City of Tucson, sponsored by Senator Flake; and
    S. 2383, to withdraw certain BLM outside the Utah Test and
    Training Range (UTTR) to facilitate and enhance weapons testing
    and pilot training at the Air Force, sponsored by Senator Hatch
    and Senator Lee.
        So I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here
    today.
        I would now like to turn to Senator Wyden for any opening
    remarks or comments he would like to add.

         STATEMENT OF HON. RON WYDEN, U.S. SENATOR FROM OREGON

        Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We are
    going to look at important public lands bills today, and I
    especially appreciate the inclusion of my Oregon Wildlands
    bill. There are important challenges here, and I am just going
    to touch on a few.
        One is the Frank Moore Wild Steelhead Sanctuary Act, which
    is a bill to honor a World War II hero and conservationist in
    Oregon. I look forward to working with my colleagues on this
    Committee to find a way to honor his legacy.
        I also have two Oregon tribal bills, the Coos and the Cow
    Creek bills. Helping these tribes has been important to me
    since I was Chair of this full Committee, because they provide
    these tribes with the land base that they deserve. I appreciate
    the continued efforts of the Chair and the Ranking Member of
    the Committee and their staffs on helping me get these bills
    over the finish line.
        With respect to my bill on the agenda today, the Oregon
    Wildlands Act is a compilation of several wilderness and wild
    and scenic provisions that were included in my O&C bill. So
    this is actually the second time these bills have been heard in
    this Committee, because the Committee held a hearing on the O&C
    bill last July.
        I know the Committee has received many letters of support
    for the legislation from groups across Oregon representing
    conservation, fish and wildlife, and sportsmen's interests. I
    also appreciate the continued support and commitment from the
    Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service to work with
    me on this important bill.
        The Oregon Wildlands Act designates hundreds of miles of
    rivers in Oregon as wild and scenic. It expands wilderness for
    some of Oregon's most treasured areas and protects over 100,000
    acres as National Recreation Areas.
        My state is a special place, and it has remarkable natural
    features and diverse landscapes that lend themselves to a
    variety of recreational pursuits. We essentially have it all.
    Climbing, hiking, bird watching, we have everything. That is
    why the bill is so important. The qualities that make Oregon's
    natural treasures unique are exactly the reasons for protecting
    them, and I want to make sure that our kids and our grandkids
    can enjoy them for years to come and continue to support the
    ecosystems and wildlife that depend on them.
        The Oregon Wildlands Act was a part of my O&C bill, and I
    am just going to take a quick minute to talk about that. Unlike
    other forestry proposals that are out there, and the recently
    released Bureau of Land Management Resource Management Plan,
    this legislation is different.
        My O&C bill would double the harvest compared to the
    average harvest over the last decade, and it would ensure
    lasting protections for Oregon's special places. With tough
    forestry and conservation issues, you always face the same
    challenge. I am looking down the dais and all of us, as
    Westerners in particular, understand what this is about. Not
    everybody is going to get what they asked for, and nobody is
    going to get everything they think they deserve. The question
    is in the West can you come up with a challenge so that all of
    the responsible parties get what they need? Looking down the
    row and to Senator Heinrich, I think all of us as Westerners
    have been through that, and that, in my view, sums up the
    challenge.
        Finally, I want to talk for a moment about Senator Crapo's
    Owyhee bill. I know the wilderness management issues are
    difficult in his state, just as they are for all of us as
    Westerners. Senator Crapo has worked very hard to bring diverse
    interest groups together to pass the Owyhee Wilderness bill in
    2009. And of course, again, as Westerners we know that is the
    way you go about this right.
        My understanding is the Bureau of Land Management recently
    changed its policies on grazing within these wilderness areas
    which the ranchers believe are inconsistent with what they
    agreed to in 2009. So I want to just state, in wrapping up, my
    commitment to work with Senator Crapo to thread the needle on
    this to find a solution that is consistent with the Wilderness
    Act and also with the grazing language that was included in the
    original Owyhee Wilderness bill.
        Again, I want to thank Chairman Barrasso for his help on
    including the Oregon Wildlands Act today and for our witnesses.
    I hope they will excuse my bad manners. The last plane for
    Oregon leaves in a little bit, so that is going to be my
    immediate challenge.
        I really appreciate you all being here, and we look forward
    especially to working with you on the Oregon Wildlands bill.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Wyden.
        We have some sponsors of initial legislation here with us.
    I think Senator Lee was the first to arrive if you would like
    to make any statement regarding your legislation?

           STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE LEE, U.S. SENATOR FROM UTAH

        Senator Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thanks
    to all of you for being here. This is an important issue to our
    state.
        We are grateful for the fact that you are willing to
    include S. 2383 in the hearing this afternoon. The Enhancement
    of the Utah Test and Training Range is an issue that the Utah
    delegation, both in the House of Representatives and here in
    the Senate, feel is great importance to our national security
    and the capabilities of the Air Force.
        As a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, I have
    had the opportunity this year to question Air Force leaders on
    the importance of readying our nation's test and training
    ranges for fifth generation weapons systems and technology.
        Lieutenant General John Raymond, the Deputy Chief of Staff
    for the Air Force Operations, told the Airline Subcommittee on
    March 8th that enhancing training is, ``something that is going
    to be absolutely critical for our readiness going forward,''
    and that the Air Force will put nearly $1 billion in FY'17 to
    make sure that the ranges have the capabilities and the air
    space that they need to address these high end threats and to
    test the systems that we need.
        Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Lee.
        Senator Flake, is there anything you would like to add
    about your legislation?

                     STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF FLAKE,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA

        Senator Flake. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate
    this being talked about today.
        This would simply provide for the unencumbering of title to
    non-federal land owned by the City of Tucson for purposes of
    economic development to buy a conveyance of the federal
    reversionary interest to the city.
        We know this was a deal that was done in 1989 and it was
    done with an equal land exchange at that time, but somehow BLM
    does not see it that way. The City of Tucson would simply like
    the full use of this land.
        This legislation would just complete the transaction that
    began in 1989.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Flake.
        Senator Risch.

                    STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES RISCH,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM IDAHO

        Senator Risch. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        I have two pieces of legislation that I would like to speak
    to briefly.
        First of all, I have a lengthy statement on each one which
    I would ask unanimous consent to put in the record.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The information referred to follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Risch. S. 1177 is simply a bill that would allow
    for one of the lodges that is on the Salmon River to obtain
    permits in order to use certain motorized equipment. This is on
    private property and it was never the intention, I don't
    believe, of anyone to stop that. This would very clearly allow
    them to use the kinds of things that they need to maintain the
    things that are there, not necessarily to improve. As usual
    this is a government-made problem, and this will resolve it.
        Interestingly enough the local Forest Service people say
    well they don't have the authority to issue such a permit. The
    higher-ups say that they do have the authority and the
    testimony I am reading today from the Forest Service says,
    ``The Department opposes Senate bill 1777 because it would
    create a negative precedent for other commercial recreation
    service providers on wild and scenic rivers across the nation.
    We hope to work with Senator Risch and Senator Crapo to find a
    solution that is mutually beneficial to their constituents and
    the Forest Service.''
        So I have got a real good solution. Issue the permits, then
    we really do not need this legislation. Again, this is very
    diminimus in the overall scheme of things. It was the intent
    always, when all of this was passed, that the private
    landholders could continue to operate they have traditionally
    been operating. I will be interested to hear the Forest Service
    position on that. Hopefully it is more than just in this, what
    I have in this prepared statement.
        Secondly, I am helping Senator Crapo on Senate bill 1167.
    Senate bill 1167 is another government-made problem. Senator
    Crapo worked very hard with the people. It was a collaborative
    sort of thing in order to get this particular wilderness put in
    place. What it did allow for is the people who were running
    cattle out there to continue running cattle and to do it the
    way they have always done it.
        Now for those of you who do not run cattle, I can tell you
    that every year we have to go out and gather the cattle. There
    are a couple of ways you do it. One is on a horse. One is on a
    four-wheeler. If you are down in Owyhee County, you want to be
    on a four-wheeler because you can cover about ten times the
    amount of ground on a four-wheeler that you can on a horse.
    It's always been allowed, but the BLM has modified its rules
    since the original bill was passed and they are now trying to
    prohibit four-wheelers on the ranchers that are operating down
    there.
        What this bill does is simply allow us, again, to go back
    with what was the understanding. Interestingly enough, this is
    supported by our flagship conservation group in Idaho, the
    Idaho Conservation League, Rivers United which is our flagship
    group when it comes to wild and scenic rivers, the Wilderness
    Society and the Pew Foundation. All these people know that this
    is what was intended.
        With that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Risch.
        At this time, we will turn to our witnesses.
        At the end of the witness testimony we will begin a round
    of questions. The witnesses' full written testimony will be
    made part of the official hearing record. We will ask you to
    please keep your statements to five minutes so that we may have
    time for questions.
        The witnesses include: Mr. Glenn Casamassa, who is the
    Associate Deputy Chief of the U.S. Forest Service; Mr. Mike
    Pool, who is the Acting Deputy Director of the Bureau of Land
    Management; Major General Martin Whelan, who is the Director of
    Future Operations at the U.S. Department of the Air Force, and
    you are accompanied by Ms. Jennifer Miller, who is the Deputy
    Assistant Secretary regarding Installations.
        So welcome to all of you.
        If we could start with you, Mr. Casamassa.

    STATEMENT OF GLENN CASAMASSA, ASSOCIATE DEPUTY CHIEF, NATIONAL
        FOREST SYSTEM, U.S. FOREST SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF
                              AGRICULTURE

        Mr. Casamassa. Yes, Mr. Chairman, members of the
    Subcommittee, my name is Glenn Casamassa and I serve as the
    Associate Deputy Chief for the National Forest System.
        There are four bills I've been asked to address, and I have
    provided written testimony for the record.
        S. 1423, the Central Coast Heritage Protection Act,
    designates National Forest System lands on the Los Padres
    National Forest in California as wilderness and additional to
    existing wilderness and designates potential wilderness areas,
    scenic areas and a national recreation trail.
        The legislation also directs the Forest Service to study
    creating a connection between the northern and southern
    portions of the Los Padres using a trail corridor, directs the
    Forest Service to study the feasibility of opening a new trail
    to an existing off-highway vehicle trail and additional access
    to wilderness scenic areas and potential wilderness areas by
    Indian tribes for traditional, cultural and religious purposes.
        The Department is generally supportive of the 24 additions
    of the eight existing wilderness areas and the designation of
    the new Diablo Caliente Wilderness and would like to work with
    the bill's sponsor and the Subcommittee to develop legislative
    maps and additional language to clarify the intentions of some
    portions of the bill.
        The Department supports the Wild and Scenic River
    designation and will provide more details on the suitability,
    eligibility and classification information with the bill's
    sponsors and the Subcommittee to facilitate as much consistency
    as possible between the agency's findings and the river
    segments proposed for designation in the bill.
        Senate bill 1510, the Wild Olympic Wilderness and Wild and
    Scenic River Act of 2015, would designate new and expand
    existing wilderness areas, potential wilderness areas and
    certain rivers in the Olympic National Forest and Olympic
    National Park as wild and scenic rivers.
        The Department supports designation of suitable rivers to
    the national wild and scenic river system as well as the new
    wilderness areas and additions to existing wilderness in S.
    1510.
        The Department would like to work with the bill's sponsors
    and the Subcommittee on aspects of the bill such as the
    identification of potential locations of future restoration or
    habitat improvements, on language to be included in the bill
    that affords reasonable time for completion of the required
    comprehensive river management plan and boundary modifications
    to ensure that the boundaries are crafted to best support the
    agency's ability to manage and preserve wilderness
    characteristics.
        Senate bill 1699, the Oregon Wildlands Acts, would
    designate new and expand existing wilderness areas and would
    designate certain rivers in the Rogue River--Siskiyou in the
    Siuslaw National Forest as Wild and Scenic rivers.
        In summary, the Department is supportive of the following
    portions of the bill: Designate rivers and streams on National
    Forest System land as part of the National Wild and Scenic
    Rivers and defer to the Department of Interior in regard to the
    proposal to designate rivers and streams flowing on lands
    administered by the BLM; supportive of the technical changes
    that amend the existing designation in the Wild and Scenic
    Rivers Act as they provide a more appropriate naming convention
    and better reflect management classification and correction;
    supportive of the technical correction to remove the offensive
    name of the designation of Squaw Creek to Whychus Creek and
    other name designations; supportive of the designation of
    wilderness additions to the Wild Rogue Wilderness that has both
    BLM and U.S. Forest Service parcels; and, as we have previously
    testified in July of 2015 in support of Senate bill 132, the
    Oregon and California Land Grant Act of 2015, the designation
    of the Devil's Staircase Wilderness which would include
    transfer of administrative jurisdiction of 49-acre parcel
    managed by the BLM to the Forest Service to be managed as part
    of the Siuslaw National Forest as site of cultural significance
    to the Coos, Lower Umpqua and Siuslaw Indians. The Department
    would also like to work with the Subcommittee on some potential
    amendments and map revisions that we believe would improve this
    bill.
        With respect to Senate bill 1777, to amend the Wild and
    Scenic River, the Department opposes the amendment to the Wild
    and Scenic Rivers Act because it would create a negative
    precedent for other commercial recreation services providers on
    wild and scenic rivers across the country.
        The facilities and structures for commercial recreation
    services at Smith Gulch in Idaho are authorized and operated
    under a 20-year term, special use permit to the River of No
    Return Lodge Incorporated issued and administered by the Salmon
    Challis National Forest. This permit is issued with provisions
    and terms similar to those of recreation facilities throughout
    the National Forest System. The permit takes into account the
    location and surrounding of facilities improvements the public
    values if affected by such an operation and any specific public
    health and safety concerns.
        The Department encourages the operator or the recreation
    services business at Smith Gulch to work with the appropriate
    local Forest Service official to revise any issues related to
    their existing permit.
        This concludes my remarks of the four bills. I'd be happy
    to answer any questions. Thank you for the opportunity.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Casamassa follows:]

       [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much for your testimony.
        Mr. Pool.

    STATEMENT OF MIKE POOL, ACTING DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OPERATIONS,
       BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

        Mr. Pool. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member,
    and members of the Subcommittee. I am Mike Pool, the BLM Acting
    Deputy Director for Operations.
        Thank you for the opportunity to present this testimony
    today which will briefly summarize our written statements.
        Senate bill 1167 focuses on the boundaries and the
    management of six wilderness areas in the Owyhee Canyonlands
    regions of Idaho. The Department acknowledges the dedicated
    efforts of the stakeholders to collaborate on issues concerning
    wilderness management in this region and we generally support
    stakeholder driven efforts to redefine management boundaries;
    however, the Department strongly opposes this bill because it
    proposes broad management changes that will lift the central
    protections from the wilderness areas. We would like to work,
    take the opportunity to continue to work with Senator Crapo and
    the Subcommittee on a balanced approach to issues concerning
    roadless management in this region.
        Senate bill 1423 would designate three wilderness areas on
    BLM managed land within the Carrizo Plain National Monument in
    California, establish the Black Mountain Scenic Area on lands
    managed by the BLM and the Forest Service and designate or
    expand nine wilderness areas within the Los Padres National
    Forest, two of which would include BLM-managed public lands.
    The Department supports this bill as it pertains to lands
    managed by the BLM and would like to work with Senator Boxer
    and the Subcommittee to address various technical concerns
    including ensuring consistency with the 2010 Carrizo Plain RMP
    and correcting various references to other laws.
        Senate bill 1699 would establish two new National
    Recreation Areas on forest lands in Western Oregon, protect
    over 280 miles of Oregon rivers under the Wild and Scenic
    Rivers Act and establish new conservation designations in
    Western Oregon. The Department shares the goals to protect,
    conserve and enhance the unique recreational and natural
    resources of the proposed recreational areas and support the
    bill's conservation designations. We would like to work with
    Senator Wyden and the Subcommittee on clarifying the impact of
    the management language for the proposed recreational areas on
    existing commercial, recreation and timber production
    activities and to provide updated maps that are more closely
    tailored and aligned to the various designations in the bill.
        Senate bill 2018, relating to Glennallen, Alaska and Senate
    bill 2379 relating to Utah Park in Tucson, Arizona would
    require the Department to convey without consideration
    reversionary interest in two parcels pending under the
    Recreation of Public Persons Act. The Department supports the
    goal of conveying the reversionary interest in both of these
    bills and could support them if they were amended to ensure the
    payment of fair market value for the conveyance of the
    reversionary interest.
        Senate bill 2223 would transfer approximately 200 acres of
    public land to the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to be
    incorporated into the Black Hills National Cemetery in South
    Dakota. The Department supports this bill and we look forward
    to working with the state's congressional delegation and the
    Subcommittee to meet the needs of the Black Hills National
    Cemetery.
        Senate bill 2383. As introduced Senate bill 2383 provides
    for the limited use and short-term closure of approximately
    700,000 acres of public lands surrounding Utah Test and
    Training Range by the United States Air Force. The bill would
    also direct a large land exchange between the BLM and the State
    of Utah and recognizes the existence and validity of
    unsubstantiated rights of way claims, RS2477. The Department
    supports the military's periodic limited use of the lands
    surrounding the UTTR and we support the concept of major land
    exchanges like this one that further the public interest,
    consolidate ownership of scattered tracks of land to make them
    more manageable and enhance resource protection. We do not,
    however, support the withdrawal for the proposed share use
    area. We also strongly oppose the resolution of unsubstantiated
    rogue claims in the manner laid out in the bill. We appreciate
    the efforts of Senator Hatch and the Subcommittee to begin
    addressing the concerns we raised in our testimony on the House
    version of the bill, and we look forward to continuing our
    discussion.
        Finally, the National Park Service also submitted a
    statement for the record in support of Senate bill 1510, the
    Wild Olympic Wilderness and Wild and Scenic Rivers Act.
        Thank you for the opportunity to testify today, and I'll be
    glad to answer any questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Pool follows:]

      [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much.
        General.

     STATEMENT OF MAJOR GENERAL MARTIN WHELAN, DIRECTOR OF FUTURE
    OPERATIONS, DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR OPERATIONS, HEADQUARTERS,
       U.S. AIR FORCE; ACCOMPANIED BY JENNIFER L. MILLER, DEPUTY
         ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INSTALLATIONS, U.S. AIR FORCE

        General Whelan. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member,
    distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for the
    opportunity to come before you to discuss this important issue,
    specifically the need to balance responsible land management
    with evolving military requirements at the Utah Test and
    Training Range.
        If enacted, S. 2383, would provide the Air Force the
    capability to employ larger weapons safety buffers at the Utah
    Test and Training Range or UTTR, through the temporary closure
    and use of some current BLM land and any state land transferred
    to BLM. This would be accomplished at little additional cost
    and with no disruption to the historically responsible
    environmental management of these prized lands.
        The Air Force believes the bill's concept of short periodic
    closures is the best way to serve the public's interest while
    addressing both the Air Force's emerging operational
    requirements and the Department of Interior's effective
    stewardship of these lands.
        The Air Force's operational capabilities are advancing at a
    rate that challenges the geographic boundaries of the ranges.
    These constraints compromise effective tests and evaluation and
    our ability to conduct realistic and relevant live training.
    One important aspect driving the need for larger geographic
    containment is the increasing size of weapon safety footprints.
        For safety reasons it is vital that the Air Force control
    for the duration of a mission. Access to the areas oppose even
    a remote risk to the public from debris or components should
    the weapons event fail. The Air Force's enviable test safety
    record is testimony to this extraordinary level of caution.
        In the last 20 months the Air Force expended over 27,000
    munitions in support of Operation Inherent Resolve which is
    more than we expended during all of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
    The Air Force's involvement in such combat operations is not
    expected to decrease in the near future. A well-trained force
    and continued testing and training of our improved combat
    capabilities are critical to our continued success supporting
    these operations.
        Technological advances incorporated in both our legacy and
    newest combat aircraft and the weapons associated with those
    systems represent an unprecedented leap in combat capability.
    These advances enable crews to identify and engage multiple
    targets from greater distances with improved accuracy. This
    technology that enables the greater employment distances and
    increases precision drives the need for larger segments of
    range and buffer lands.
        Safely containing large footprint weapons testing
    historically accomplished at the UTTR is especially
    challenging. Some standoff weapons footprints soon exceed the
    capability of our existing range enterprise configuration to
    provide the superior live weapons testing and tactics
    techniques and procedure validation that have long been a U.S.
    strategic advantage in combat capability and readiness.
        We are working diligently and creatively to overcome these
    limitations. In some cases, we've relied on modeling and
    simulation to accomplish the specific events. In other cases,
    we simply accept certain levels of artificiality that degrade
    the training quality for live events at the local and regional
    levels.
        Given these gradual drifts from realistic training and
    realistic reliance on simulation it is absolutely imperative we
    sustain certain irreplaceable live environments, like the UTTR,
    to accomplish these unique and uncompromising tests and
    training events.
        In the past and under select circumstances the Department
    of Defense components have assumed administrative jurisdiction
    over buffer lands with full responsibility for land management.
    Generally however, it is neither efficient nor cost effective
    for the services to expend resources on full time land
    management when all that is required is brief periods of
    restricted access.
        This bill is similar to legislation allowing the overlap of
    weapons safety footprints on the Cabeza Prieta in Arizona. That
    example, commonly decided by the Air Force in how to
    successfully enable military missions while minimizing the
    impact on other agencies and the public. If enacted, S. 2383
    would likewise provide the Air Force a much needed capability
    through brief closures to BLM land and any state land
    transferred to the BLM.
        We believe this bill's concept of short periodic closures
    would serve the public interest better than the alternative of
    complete withdrawal. We recognize the Administration continues
    to have concerns with several provisions of S. 2383 that we may
    create challenges for effective management of these lands. We
    welcome the opportunity to continue working with the sponsors
    and the Department of the Interior to address these concerns.
        I thank you for the opportunity to come before you and I
    welcome any questions.
        [The prepared statement of General Whelan follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Barrasso. Thank you so very much.
        Ms. Miller, do you have anything to offer in addition? I
    know you are here primarily in a support role.
        Ms. Miller. Supporting role, Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much.
        We will turn to the questioning now with Senator Lee.
        Senator Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I
    appreciate your willingness to accommodate my schedule.
        General Whelan, can you tell us why it is important from an
    Air Force readiness standpoint to have the UTTR expanded and
    enhanced as soon as possible, especially given that both the
    388th and the 419th fighter wings are already out there this
    year trying to achieve F35 Iowa City this year?
        General Whelan. Thank you, Senator, and I appreciate the
    opportunity to explain the importance of the Utah Test and
    Training Range in this particular legislation to help us with
    our training, our tactics, techniques and procedures
    development and effectively the readiness of the force.
        As our new generation fighters, the F35 and F22, have
    longer ranges and the weapons with them have longer ranges, we
    effectively can engage weapons at a distance that preserves the
    capabilities that we have and the people that fly our weapons.
    So by employing those weapons at longer distances the
    probability of something going wrong covers a greater land
    mass. And through this legislation by increasing these buffer
    areas we're able to do realistic testing without any of the
    artificialities that we currently have to put in place to
    enable the live testing, realistic testing, that we do to
    enhance our capability.
        We also support the fact that we don't need this access 24/
    7, 365 days a year. And so by allowing these buffer lands with
    the periodic shortages, not to exceed three hours, not to
    exceed 100 hours a year, allow us to do our effective training
    while also maintaining the access to the lands and the programs
    that are effectively run by the Department of Interior.
        Senator Lee. So this plan really does minimize the impact
    on surrounding communities, the inconvenience anybody else
    might suffer?
        Tell us what it would do though if we do not get this done
    in a timely manner? What kind of impact would that have on the
    Air Force? What would be the consequence of that?
        General Whelan. Sir, if we don't get the opportunity to
    make the changes that are brought forth in this legislation
    we'll continue to have to work on a case by case basis for each
    of the tests that we do. Our process is set up that we program
    testing and training long in advance. We program through
    Congress for the funding to do all the testing, development and
    then the training of our crews and without this legislation
    we'll have to continue to de-conflict on a more manpower
    intensive basis than through the procedures that are being
    allowed for under this legislation.
        Senator Lee. Thus limiting the ability that we would
    otherwise have to take full advantage of this new technology,
    this new platform, this new weapons system?
        General Whelan. Yes, sir. It would limit our ability to
    test.
        For instance, today, to make sure that the footprint stays
    sufficiently small, we either reduce the speed of the aircraft
    that we would normally use to engage the weapon which is an
    artificiality because in combat we won't do that or we come
    down in altitude and actually dispense the weapon at a lower
    altitude to bring down that area which we wouldn't normally do
    in a contested environment.
        So by allowing the buffer zone we're able to maintain the
    range space and the buffer zones that we need to do this
    training and effectively train our crews to go into combat,
    should that become necessary.
        Senator Lee. Okay. In that case we need to get this done,
    don't we?
        General Whelan. Yes, sir.
        Senator Lee. Thank you very much, General.
        General Whelan. Thank you, sir.
        Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Lee.
        Senator Heinrich.
        Senator Heinrich. Mr. Chairman, first let me ask unanimous
    consent to put into the record statements from Senator Patty
    Murray on S. 1610 and Senator Barbara Boxer on S. 1423.
        Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
        [The information referred to follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Heinrich. Mr. Casamassa, let me start with you.
        There seems to be a little bit of confusion around S. 1777.
    You heard my colleague at the beginning, Senator Risch of
    Idaho, state that this commercial lodge is on private land. My
    understanding is that it is on Forest Service titled land. Who
    actually owns the title to this property?
        Mr. Casamassa. Senator, the National Forest. It's on
    National Forest System lands.
        Senator Heinrich. So it is actually on public land not on
    private land?
        Mr. Casamassa. On public land and it is permitted on as it
    relates to the public land.
        Senator Heinrich. Okay, that is very helpful to clear that
    up.
        Major General Whelan, it is great to see you again. I want
    to ask you a couple of questions about the Utah Test and
    Training Range legislation.
        First, let me say that I support the intent of this
    legislation, and I think we will get there on this because it
    is quite important. But I wanted to ask you, in particular,
    about Title III which seems to be somewhat incongruent with the
    rest of this legislation.
        This section of the bill grants nearly 6,000 miles of
    rights-of-way across three Utah counties. Is Title III of H.R.
    4579 in any way driven by military necessity?
        General Whelan. Thank you for the question, sir.
        From an Air Force operational perspective, we're looking
    for the contiguous support but if I may have Ms. Miller, see
    if----
        Senator Heinrich. Sure.
        General Whelan. She's more the detail for our specific land
    use part of the mission area.
        Senator Heinrich. That would be fine.
        Ms. Miller. Yes, Senator.
        The Air Force doesn't have any particular equity in Title
    III. We understand that there may be some concerns with
    Department of Interior and BLM, but there's no operational
    requirement for that provision from the Air Force perspective.
        Senator Heinrich. And it was not drafted in response to any
    request from the Air Force?
        Ms. Miller. Correct, Senator.
        Senator Heinrich. Great, that is very helpful.
        Director Pool, is the land exchange in S. 2383 a result of
    a negotiation between the BLM and the state and have you gone
    through the typical exchange decision-making process in this
    case?
        Mr. Pool. Senator, I think there's been some informal
    discussions regarding both respective sets of properties. But I
    think we're still on the front end in that this would be a, at
    least under our authority, it would come under FLPMA.
        Senator Heinrich. Right.
        Mr. Pool. And that we would have to proceed with an
    inventory process of values associated with public lands. And
    we're going to have to address the suitability and public
    interest determinations through the NEPA analysis process. So
    that's, kind of, where we're at at this stage.
        Senator Heinrich. Having not done NEPA or gotten that far
    down the road yet on this, are you aware of any sensitive
    public resources in this area?
        Mr. Pool. I think there's some cultural resources. There's
    some historic mining districts. There's some greater sage
    grouse habitat associated with some of these parcels.
        So I think we're just going to have to do a more intensive
    evaluation of all parcels and make a determination of whether
    or not they should be transferred out of federal ownership.
        Senator Heinrich. What about tribal consultation? Is any
    tribal consultation--
        Mr. Pool. That would occur as part of the exchange NEPA
    process.
        Senator Heinrich. Okay.
        Mr. Pool. We would indeed do that.
        Senator Heinrich. I also wanted to switch gears to Owyhee
    country.
        I am wondering if you can help us better understand the lay
    of the land with the grazing guidelines that govern grazing in
    national wilderness areas.
        I am going to read a short section from the motorized
    vehicle use section. ``Where practical alternatives do not
    exist, maintenance or other activities may be accomplished
    through the occasional use of motorized equipment. The use of
    motorized equipment should be based on a rule of practical
    necessity and reasonableness. Moreover, under the rule of
    reasonableness, occasional use of motorized equipment should be
    permitted where practical alternatives are not available and
    such use would not have a significant adverse impact on the
    natural environment.''
        The way that I understand that is typically interpreted is,
    for example, if you have to do an activity like taking silt out
    of a silted in stock tank, something where the only practical
    way to do that in many cases is to go in once every 10-15 years
    with a backhoe, dig that out under permit, and then you are
    done. Whereas, if say you are just mending a fence and you can
    take your T bars and your fence post pounders and things on
    horseback, then that would be required as the least impactful
    tool in that case. Can you talk a little bit about those
    guidelines and what they mean for areas like this?
        Mr. Pool. I can.
        Your scenarios are good analogies of what we can authorize
    by basically going through what we call a minimum effects
    analysis. We address those on a case by case depending on the
    type of access the permitee needed prior to wilderness
    designation, and it varies.
        But we go through, first of all, we have to determine if
    it's even necessary. And if so, then we go through a range of
    alternatives including motorized, non-motorized and it's on a
    case by case.
        So, I think we try to be fair and practical in working with
    our permitees to provide the needed access they need to have to
    get into some of these improvements.
        Senator Heinrich. Thank you very much.
        Senator Barrasso. I have just a couple of questions for Mr.
    Casamassa and Mr. Pool.
        Today we are considering several pieces of legislation.
    When you combine it all it would designate almost a half a
    million acres, 458,194 acres, of new wilderness. That number
    does not include another 625,000 acres of BLM lands withdrawn
    for national security purposes or the additional 118,000 acres
    of BLM lands recommended for withdrawal and repurposing as
    national recreation areas even though these areas would not
    allow the use of motorized vehicles on permanent or temporary
    roads.
        I would like to talk about one specific category of land
    withdrawal that I mentioned in the opening statement. This is
    the idea of potential wilderness. Between S. 1423, S. 1510 and
    S. 1699, there are almost 50,000 acres, about 48,900 acres, of
    land recommended for this designation as potential wilderness.
    So, it is a lot of land.
        The 1964 Wilderness Act did not really provide for a
    category called potential wilderness. It had other categories,
    but not a category for potential wilderness. So while the
    National Park Service Act of 1976 established a category for
    potential wilderness, it did so for National Park System units
    only.
        So both the BLM and the Forest Service have lands in these
    bills that would be designated as this new category, this
    potential wilderness land, which are currently lands used as
    multiple use.
        Could you explain a little bit about how your agencies plan
    to use a potential wilderness designation to convert land from
    multiple use to designated wilderness? How does this all work?
        Mr. Casamassa. Senator, one of the things that we'd have to
    do is assess what the non-conforming uses are within the
    potential wilderness areas, determine the impacts of those and
    then consider how we would then mitigate those uses in those
    areas and eventually reduce those non-conforming uses in order
    to then phase that into designated wilderness.
        Senator Barrasso. Mr. Pool, would you like to add
    additional comments?
        Mr. Pool. Yes.
        We have two methods by which the wilderness designations
    could result within BLM.
        The first authority was 603 under the Federal Land Policy
    and Management Act (FLPMA). It directed the agencies to
    inventory public lands for wilderness characteristics,
    determine the suitability for wilderness management and produce
    wilderness suitability reports and report to Congress. Those
    currently exist throughout the Western range lands, and only
    Congress can either release or designate those areas
    wilderness.
        The other authority that we use as part of our planning is
    under FLPMA 201. That requires us to maintain an ongoing
    inventory of resource values associated with public lands and
    that does include wilderness characteristics. So if we're going
    through a planning process or if we acquire new lands, just
    like we inventory all other natural resources, we do inventory
    for wilderness characteristics and we maintain those values in
    their current form. That's what we do today.
        So there's two different authorities that help us manage
    the wilderness program.
        Senator Barrasso. Mr. Casamassa, back with you looking at
    this wild Olympics bill, S. 1510.
        In 2012 the Port of Port Angeles released an economic
    impact analysis. They detailed the implications of S. 1510. The
    study concluded that the wilderness designation would result in
    reduced timber yields, and they said that there were more than
    400 jobs, intersector jobs, in terms of job losses in the
    region. This legislation is going to add over 125,000 acres of
    Olympic National Forest to the wilderness tally.
        Could you just explain a little bit of how the Forest
    Service plan to reduce allowable acreage available for timber
    harvest on the peninsula would work without impacting yields
    and how would that work and the implications are consistent
    with that study from 2012?
        Mr. Casamassa. Yes, Mr. Chairman, the--we estimate that it
    is approximately eight percent of that total, 123,000 acres
    that are currently in suitable timber management areas. That
    certainly would be, you know, those 10,000 acres would be
    collectively reduced from the overall timber base and the lands
    that we would manage as forest management. There would be some
    level of impact, but given that it's 10,000 acres, it would be
    somewhat minimal based on the significance of it all.
        Senator Barrasso. Senator Heinrich.
        Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Mr. Casamassa, I understand that the goal of S. 1777 is to
    allow the installation of solar panels on the cabins at Smith
    Gulch. But I have to admit I was a little confused to see lawn
    mowers, weed trimmers and hydroelectric generation and
    transmission facilities listed as equipment that would be
    allowed under the legislation as they do not seem to be related
    to the installation of solar panels.
        Can you shed any light on why that equipment is included in
    that legislation?
        Mr. Casamassa. Senator, as far as the way that the terms
    and conditions of the existing permit for that facility reads
    there are limitations as to what, if anything, would be
    permitted in addition to what is presently being permitted.
    These are requests that are being made, and we don't
    necessarily believe that they're in conformance with the terms
    and conditions of the permit authorized to not only this
    outfitting and guide camp but adjacent outfitting and guide
    camps along the river corridor as well.
        Senator Heinrich. Great. That's very helpful. As a former
    outfitter guide, I see where you're coming from.
        I want to say just a word about S. 1510. I support Senator
    Murray's Wild Olympics bill which was carefully designed,
    frankly, to protect and grow the local outdoor recreation
    economy on Washington's Olympic peninsula. The bill provides
    permanent protections to important wildlife habitat and
    recreation land. It protects the health of rivers and streams
    that provide drinking water to thousands of Washingtonians. I
    hope there are at least a few salmon in those. It supports the
    robust shellfish industry as well and seeks to improve the
    health of Puget Sound.
        I have heard from Senator Murray that her bill is supported
    by thousands of Washington residents including many on the
    Olympic peninsula, local and national recreation and
    conservation organizations, outdoor recreation companies and
    local elected leaders. I just wanted to put on the table my
    support for that legislation, and I look forward to working
    with her to accomplish that.
        Finally, before we wrap up, I will just leave one last
    commentary and then turn it back over to the Chair.
        We have heard a little bit today about multiple use versus
    wilderness. That is a little bit, to me, as a former outfitter
    guide, of an apples and oranges comparison simply because
    wilderness is multiple use. Grazing is allowed in wilderness.
    Hunting is allowed in wilderness. Fishing is allowed in
    wilderness. I was a guide in wilderness areas, so obviously,
    recreation as well.
        So while it does come with certain limitations, it also
    comes with a multiple use mindset that is not completely
    incongruous with the overall multiple use mandate that our
    public land agencies have.
        Thank you all.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Heinrich.
        Mr. Pool, when the original Owyhee initiative began in 2000
    it was a collaborative effort between diverse stakeholders
    including the Shoshone-Paiute tribe, ranchers and locals, state
    governments, environmental groups, people working together. The
    collaboration resulted in the Owyhee Public Land Management Act
    of 2008. It was signed into law as part of the Omnibus Lands
    bill of 2009.
        At the time the legislation was negotiated, the BLM left
    the stakeholders with the impression that current permittees
    would be able to continue reasonable grazing activities on new
    wilderness land, including the use of motorized vehicles for
    herding and for routine inspections. That was the impression
    that was left. So can you tell us what led the BLM to revise
    that policy to now disallow the use of motorized equipment for
    herding and routine inspections in livestock management in this
    area where it had previously been allowed?
        Mr. Pool. Yeah, Mr. Chairman, I think that we've, our
    criteria, we feel like using motorized equipment, ATV-type
    applications, is not consistent with the purpose of the
    Wilderness Act or the values that are associated with that
    designation.
        We have worked with our permittees, continue to provide
    them as needed authorizations to use motorized vehicles to get
    to their improvements, and I think we've been very reasonable.
    But when you start using ATVs or motorcycles to herd cattle, we
    believe that is inconsistent with the purpose of the Wilderness
    Act.
        Senator Barrasso. I am going back to the impression that
    was left with the current permittees when all this
    collaborative effort came through.
        Does this decision then impact only the Owyhee Wilderness
    Area or will it also impact other wilderness areas with grazing
    permits? And if so, how many acres are we talking about and how
    many AUMs have been impacted by this decision or have all the
    permittees been given an opportunity to comment on this policy
    and this decision?
        Mr. Pool. Well, I don't know to what extent there are other
    wilderness areas that BLM manages where we would allow
    motorized vehicles for herding or gathering. I know of none.
    But many of our wilderness areas that we manage in BLM we do
    provide a continuation of livestock use in the designated
    wilderness areas. That's clearly afforded in the act itself.
    And then we continue to work with them, case-by-case basis, you
    know, on the minimal effects tools to determine if we can
    permit the permittee to use motorized vehicles, including in
    some cases heavy equipment, to maintain their grazing and
    permits.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
        Senator Heinrich, do you have any additional questions?
        Senator Heinrich. No.
        Senator Barrasso. If not, I want to thank all of you for
    taking time to be with us today and for your testimony.
        Other members of the Committee may submit written questions
    to you. If they do, I hope that you will respond quickly in
    writing. The hearing record will be open for two weeks.
        Senator Barrasso. I want to thank all the witnesses for
    your time and testimony today.
        The hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 3:24 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.]

                          APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

                                  ----------

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                        [all]