    [House Hearing, 114 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                          POTENTIAL TERRORIST THREATS:
                         BORDER SECURITY CHALLENGES IN
                        LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                             THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE

                                     OF THE

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                 MARCH 22, 2016

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 114-155

                                   __________

            Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/
                                      or
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                                     _________

                            U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
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                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                     EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman
    CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey     ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
    ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida         BRAD SHERMAN, California
    DANA ROHRABACHER, California         GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
    STEVE CHABOT, Ohio                   ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey
    JOE WILSON, South Carolina           GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
    MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas             THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
    TED POE, Texas                       BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
    MATT SALMON, Arizona                 KAREN BASS, California
    DARRELL E. ISSA, California          WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
    TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania             DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
    JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          ALAN GRAYSON, Florida
    MO BROOKS, Alabama                   AMI BERA, California
    PAUL COOK, California                ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California
    RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas            GRACE MENG, New York
    SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania            LOIS FRANKEL, Florida
    RON DeSANTIS, Florida                TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii
    MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina         JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
    TED S. YOHO, Florida                 ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
    CURT CLAWSON, Florida                BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania
    SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee
    REID J. RIBBLE, Wisconsin
    DAVID A. TROTT, Michigan
    LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
    DANIEL DONOVAN, New York

         Amy Porter, Chief of Staff      Thomas Sheehy, Staff Director

                   Jason Steinbaum, Democratic Staff Director
                                     ------

                     Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere

                     JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina, Chairman
    CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey     ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey
    ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida         JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
    MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas             ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
    MATT SALMON, Arizona                 GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
    RON DeSANTIS, Florida                ALAN GRAYSON, Florida
    TED S. YOHO, Florida                 ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California
    DANIEL DONOVAN, New York

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                   WITNESSES

    Mr. Juan Gonzalez, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Western
      Hemisphere Affairs, U.S. Department of State...................     2
    The Honorable Alan D. Bersin, Assistant Secretary for
      International Affairs and Chief Diplomatic Officer, U.S.
      Department of Homeland Security................................     8
    Mr. Lev Kubiak, Assistant Director for International Operations,
      U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Department of
      Homeland Security..............................................    19

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    Mr. Juan Gonzalez: Prepared statement............................     4
    The Honorable Alan D. Bersin: Prepared statement.................    10
    Mr. Lev Kubiak: Prepared statement...............................    21

                                    APPENDIX

    Hearing notice...................................................    40
    Hearing minutes..................................................    41
    The Honorable Jeff Duncan, a Representative in Congress from the
      State of South Carolina, and chairman, Subcommittee on the
      Western Hemisphere: Prepared statement.........................    42
    The Honorable Albio Sires, a Representative in Congress from the
      State of New Jersey: Prepared statement........................    44

                      POTENTIAL TERRORIST THREATS: BORDER.
                      SECURITY CHALLENGES IN LATIN AMERICA
                               AND THE CARIBBEAN

                                  ----------

                            TUESDAY, MARCH 22, 2016

                           House of Representatives,

                    Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere,

                         Committee on Foreign Affairs,

                                Washington, DC.

        The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 o'clock p.m.,
    in room 2200 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jeff Duncan
    (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
        Mr. Duncan. A quorum being present, the subcommittee will
    come to order. We have an eight-vote series that will require
    the subcommittee to recess for about 45 minutes as soon as
    votes are called. I understand that Assistant Secretary Bersin
    has a hard stop at 4 o'clock, so we will return immediately
    after votes to conclude the opening portion of the hearing and
    to move to a classified setting. Following testimonies and
    members' questions, we will conclude there and we will conclude
    our time today.
        So I am going to, in the essence of time, skip over my
    opening statement, but I want to start off with just saying a
    couple of things. First off, I am deeply saddened by the loss
    of life in Brussels today at the hands of evil men. I want to
    dedicate today's hearing to the victims of today's attacks and
    their families. I led my first congressional delegation trip to
    Brussels in 2014 to look exactly at foreign fighter flow,
    foreign fighter threat, and the ways that the U.S. and our
    European allies could better cooperate on homeland security
    issues. And only a day before my visit, an ISIS foreign fighter
    had returned to Brussels and shot up a Jewish museum killing
    four people before he tried to flee to Africa. So today's
    depraved acts in Brussels, following the Paris attack,
    demonstrate again that evil and evil men's intentions continue
    to rip apart the fabric of free Western societies through acts
    of terror and fear.
        It brings to mind Winston Churchill's words. Let us learn
    our lessons. Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth
    and easy. Always remember, however, as sure as you are that you
    can easily win, that there would not be a war if the other man
    did not think he also had a chance. So we must show enemies
    that they have no chance of victory and we do that, in part,
    through strong defenses and secure borders.
        So I want to start the hearing. We are going to jump right
    in and submit our opening statements for the record. The
    ranking member agrees with me, so I would just go ahead and
    recognize Mr. Gonzalez for his opening statement. You are
    recognized for 5 minutes.

      STATEMENT OF MR. JUAN GONZALEZ, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY,
     BUREAU OF WESTERN HEMISPHERE AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

        Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member,
    and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the
    opportunity to testify before you on border security and
    vulnerabilities in Latin America and the Caribbean. It is an
    honor to be here with my colleague and friends from the
    Department of Homeland Security.
        First, just to summarize my oral remarks, I wanted to first
    thank this committee in my capacity as Deputy Assistant
    Secretary of State for Central America and the Caribbean for
    its bipartisan support for our strategy in Central America. You
    allowed us to increase funding for Fiscal Year 2015 and
    supported the President's Fiscal Year 2016 request for $750
    million, providing us with the tools to help these governments
    make a real difference on the ground. So thank you and I look
    forward to continue working with you on this.
        Now effective border management in Latin America and the
    Caribbean is vital to our economic prosperity and national
    security. Throughout the hemisphere, we are working with
    governments to eliminate trade barriers, integrate electricity
    grids and energy markets, connect national infrastructures, and
    cement commercial relationships. As evidence, I offer that our
    trillion dollar trade relationship and over 3 million American
    jobs, supported by our economic relationship with Canada and
    Mexico, demonstrate what is possible when governments
    collaborate actively.
        At the same time that we are using our border cooperation
    to promote prosperity, we are equally determined to use them to
    safeguard the homeland and to ensure safe, legal, and orderly
    migration to the United States. Border security was a focus of
    the recent Canada state visit. We always share travel
    information with Canada, including our respective no-fly lists.
    And the President and Prime Minister Trudeau used their meeting
    to discuss what more we can do to secure our borders while
    actively promoting commerce.
        We are also working with Mexico on border enforcement at
    both its northern and southern border to regulate migration,
    combat smuggling, and target narco-traffickers and our
    counterterrorism cooperation with Mexico is excellent.
        During his fourth visit to Mexico under this
    administration, Vice President Biden discussed border security
    with President Pena Nieto as he chaired at the same time the
    third meeting of the U.S.-Mexico High Level Economic Dialogue.
        Border security has also been at the front and center in
    the Vice President's active engagement on Central America since
    2014. During his latest meeting with Northern Triangle leaders
    here in Washington on February 24th, the three Presidents
    reaffirmed their commitment to continue awareness campaigns
    about the risks of undocumented migration, deepening the fight
    against human smuggling and trafficking, continued regional
    border security coordination, the strengthening of task forces
    and development of joint intelligence and border security
    facilities, and facilitate with the return, repatriation, and
    especially the reintegration of migrants who do not qualify for
    humanitarian protection in the United States.
        Our efforts in the Caribbean are aimed at combating the
    drug trade and other transnational criminal threats and work in
    lock step with the U.S. Coast Guard, the Department of Defense,
    and Department of Homeland Security to support regional
    maritime and aerial domain awareness by improving radar
    coverage and information sharing between partner nations.
    Caribbean governments are using U.S.-provided equipment and
    training to identify threats and carry out interdiction
    operations. And the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime Container
    Control Programme is establishing dedicated container profiling
    units to improve port security.
        In South America, the Tri-Border Area of Brazil, Argentina,
    and Paraguay is a focus for regional law enforcement efforts,
    as you know from your recent congressional delegation.
    Governments in the region have long been concerned about arms
    and drug smuggling, document fraud, money laundering,
    trafficking in persons, and the manufacture and movement of
    contraband goods through the Tri-Border Area. We are working
    with all three governments on their efforts to improve border
    management and combat smuggling. We brought justice and police
    officials from Paraguay to regional conferences on money
    laundering conducted with the Department of Justice.
        Mr. Chairman, to conclude, throughout our efforts in the
    hemisphere, U.S. strategy development and program design has
    been an active exercise of coordination between the Departments
    of State, Homeland Security, Justice, Commerce, USAID, and
    others. Indeed, funding from the Department of State and USAID
    supports a lot of the work of our partner agencies. At the same
    time, the expertise and experience of our DHS colleagues, as
    well as others in the departments and agencies, have helped us
    refine our approach and we continue to look for ways to
    maximize our coordination.
        And I will close where I began, Mr. Chairman. The U.S.
    Congress is a vital partner to the administration and we look
    forward to engaging with you on our discussion today on border
    security and vulnerabilities in Latin America and the
    Caribbean. Thank you for holding this important hearing and I
    look forward to engaging in the discussion.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Gonzalez follows:]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                  ----------

        Mr. Duncan. Thank you so much.
        Secretary Bersin.

    STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ALAN D. BERSIN, ASSISTANT SECRETARY
     FOR INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND CHIEF DIPLOMATIC OFFICER, U.S.
                    DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

        Mr. Bersin. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Sires, Mr. Yoho,
    thank you for the opportunity to appear before you once again,
    particularly in the company of my distinguished colleagues,
    Misters Gonzalez and Kubiak.
        I wanted to express our gratitude, certainly mine, for the
    comments you made with regard to the events in Brussels. I
    think in retrospect it will be seen in terms of European
    security and the effect on its borders as a game changer,
    building on what happened in Paris in January.
        I was at a meeting of the European Institute today in which
    people were reacting to the events in Brussels and I thought it
    would be useful in the context of the hearing that you and your
    staff have structured, to offer some comments that I offered
    there. Because in fact, Europe is in the midst of a confluence
    of migration, refugees, asylum seekers, and terrorists. And in
    fact, it has set the European market on its back in the
    eurozone and the Schengen zone and it is placed them at great
    risk.
        And in looking at the way in which the European nations
    have reacted to the crisis that they face with respect to
    border security, we begin to see them shutting down their
    individual borders, renouncing the Schengen zone, and generally
    hunkering down in ways that were reminiscent of the way in
    which we handled border security in the immediate aftermath of
    9/11 when we shut down our airports. We shut down our seaports.
    We actually backed traffic south into Mexico and north into
    Canada by 10 to 20 miles as we looked at every trunk and we
    processed every passenger.
        And I thought, reflected, for our European colleagues today
    how different our border security looks. To be sure, we are not
    seamless and we are not perfect and we are in a mode of
    continuous improvement as the discussion in the SCIF will
    undoubtedly focus on some of the issues that we should not take
    up in public session. But think about the difference in the way
    in which we handle border security from 15 years ago.
        We used to see borders as lines on a map, the line that
    separated us from Mexico or Canada. And in fact, we now come to
    see because, in fact, we have learned that homeland security is
    intrinsically transnational. That is to say there is hardly an
    event that affects us inside our homeland that does not have a
    cause or effect that originates outside the homeland.
        So we start to look at border security in terms of not just
    in lines, but in flows. And in the global world that makes a
    lot of sense in terms of the constant movement of migrants,
    capital labor, electrons, goods, and people, constantly back
    and forth across the line.
        So we have come to see the fact that our ports of entry,
    the 327 airports, seaports, and land ports, are not the first
    line of defense, but rather they are the last line of defense.
    And what we have to do is secure the flow of goods and people
    toward the border lines, toward our homeland, as far away from
    them as possible, and as early in time before the arrival at
    the border. And we have implemented that as the testimony of my
    colleagues and I today will again document, but with which the
    chairman and Ranking Member Yoho are familiar.
        The second thing that was pointed out, so that, in fact,
    don't move away from your--don't just hunker down at your
    border line, but manage the flows. And think our testimony will
    show that we do that.
        Second is don't fragment your border agencies. I know that
    in the 1990s there were at each of our ports of entry there
    were three separate port managers, one from Treasury, for
    Customs; one for Justice, for Immigration; and one from
    Agriculture for agricultural inspection. As a result of the
    creation of DHS, we have actually created an integrated set of
    missions that will improve over time as the Defense Department
    has to actually perform a single border security function
    effectively.
        Third, we recognize that you cannot stop everything. We are
    looking for a needle in a haystack, because in fact, 97, 98 or
    more percent of the passing of people and goods are perfectly
    lawful and legitimate. And when we look for the needle in the
    haystack, we have developed means and methods of doing it, but
    we recognize that it is based on risk management and making
    assessments and managing our borders, not seamlessly, but with
    the data that we have and the intelligence that we can garner.
        Lastly, we have learned that we cannot do this alone, that
    we have to do it in partnership not only inside the government,
    among the agencies of the United States Government, but also
    with foreign partners. And a lot of our border security today
    with regard to migration, as well as drugs, as well as
    intellectual property protection, as well as counterterrorist
    activity depends on the partnerships that we have created with
    our foreign partners.
        As Mr. Gonzalez indicated, we have just embarked on a
    massive effort in partnership with Central America. It will not
    solve the problem overnight. These problems are in the making
    over generations, but we have actually taken, and I take it
    during the course of the hearing, we can explore some of the
    departures that bode well and work well than the situation we
    have seen.
        With regard to the Caribbean, we have similar efforts of
    partnership and I hope to be able to take those up, Mr.
    Chairman, in the course of the questions and answers.
        So in conclusion, the challenge of our times is that the
    future is not what it used to be, as the French poet said. But
    we have changed the way in which we manage the border and I
    look forward to answering your questions so we can explore
    where there have been improvements and where there remains work
    to be done. Thank you, sir.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Bersin follows:]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                  ----------

        Mr. Duncan. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Kubiak.

          STATEMENT OF MR. LEV KUBIAK, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR
        INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS, U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS
           ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

        Mr. Kubiak. In the immediate wake of the tragic attacks
    today in Belgium, I am strengthened by the fact that our
    international law enforcement collaboration and our
    effectiveness grows stronger every day. In my more than 20
    years as a Federal law enforcement officer, ICE has never had
    greater capability to partner internationally to protect our
    nation.
        Over 400 ICE personnel are assigned to 62 offices in 46
    countries and each year we augment that staff with hundreds of
    agents and analysts on temporary detail. As today's attacks
    demonstrate, the threat continues to evolve and challenge our
    law enforcement response, but I am confident our strong global
    partnerships build our capability to identify criminals,
    terrorists, and those networks that support their actions.
        As the goal of the hearing is today to address Western
    Hemisphere affairs, I will focus specifically on that area, but
    the accomplishments and programs that will be discussed today
    are representative of our efforts globally.
        In the Western Hemisphere, ICE has 23 offices in 9
    countries, staffed by about 111 people who work on capacity
    building and exchange of best practices with our law
    enforcement counterparts and then operationalize those
    capabilities through joint investigations covering a full range
    of ICE's broad investigative authorities and work with our
    partner nations to repatriate their nationals.
        We are, at our core, a border law enforcement agency, and
    partner with our foreign law enforcement counterparts,
    Immigration and Customs officers around the world, to
    investigate transnational criminal organizations operating
    globally. Thanks to the additional appropriated funds from
    Congress in Fiscal Year 2015 and continued funding support from
    the Department of State and the Department of Defense, we have
    expanded critically important programs like the Transnational
    Criminal Investigative Units, our Biometric Identification
    Transnational Migration Alert Program, and the Trade
    Transparency Units.
        We continue to build our capacity and the capacity of our
    host country counterparts through training programs such as our
    Cross Border Financial Investigations Program, and our
    Strategic Trade Control Workshops. We put these programs and
    training to work through ambitious international and
    multilateral whole of U.S. Government joint investigative
    enforcement operations such as Operation Citadel.
        ICE's Transnational Criminal Investigative Units
    investigate all forms of illicit trade, travel, and finance.
    TCIUs are comprised of foreign law enforcement officials,
    customs officers, immigration officers, and prosecutors, who
    undergo a strict vetting process and complete a prerequisite 3-
    week training course at our Federal law enforcement training
    center in Glynco, Georgia. Once trained, the TCIU members work
    collaboratively with our attache personnel to address
    significant joint law enforcement threats throughout the
    hemisphere. Through this program, ICE attaches share law
    enforcement intelligence, conduct joint investigations, and
    assist in prosecutions of transnational criminal organizations
    both in the host country and in the United States.
        TCIUs are currently operational in nine countries and
    comprise more than 250 vetted foreign trained law enforcement
    officers who in 2015 alone, Fiscal Year 2015 alone, disrupted
    and dismantled criminal organizations through the arrest of
    almost 700 suspects, the seizure of nearly 17,000 pounds of
    cocaine, the seizure of more than $6.7 million in illicit cash,
    and $13 million worth of counterfeit merchandise, not to
    mention numerous firearms, ammunition, vehicles, and vessels.
        One of ICE's highest priorities in the region is
    investigating human smuggling and trafficking. The Human
    Smuggling Cell serves as the U.S. Government's coordination
    center for all human smuggling investigations and through it
    ICE and CBP together harness DHS's unique access to immigration
    border and financial data to advance efforts to counter these
    organizations. The cell provides intelligence coordination and
    supports U.S. and foreign investigations to more effectively
    address the specific regional threat.
        For the last 4 consecutive years, as an example, ICE led
    Operation Citadel, a regional, multilateral, and multi-agency
    effort to address our transnational criminal organization
    operations, but with the specific focus on human smuggling.
    This operation coordinated attaches and TCIUs in the region and
    combined partner national capacity building, training, and
    real-time intelligence, interdiction and investigative
    operations at international seaports, airports, land borders,
    and in the interior of those countries.
        In Fiscal Year 2015, Operation Citadel dismantled several
    large transnational human smuggling organizations. Most
    significantly, one investigation coordinated collaborative
    investigations at the same time in Honduras, El Salvador,
    Guatemala, Mexico, and the United States, dismantling a
    prolific transnational criminal organization operating
    throughout Central America and throughout the hemisphere. As a
    result, 14 separate human smuggling routes were identified and
    disrupted, including routes used by smugglers to move third
    country nationals from the Eastern Hemisphere through the
    Western Hemisphere and into the United States across the
    southwest border. In total, Citadel's 2015 results included 210
    arrests, the recovery of 51 unaccompanied minors, the seizure
    of $2.1 million in currency, over 2100 biometric collections or
    enrollments and the initiation of 68 new and on-going
    investigations.
        There is much work still to do and the need to continue to
    strengthen international partnerships through training and
    joint operations, but ICE is fully engaged in addressing
    current and future threats. I am confident that we will
    continue to build upon this momentum and generate additional
    considerable operational achievements as we move forward. Thank
    you for the opportunity to answer your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Kubiak follows:]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                  ----------

        Mr. Duncan. Thank you. We will move into the question
    portion of the hearing and we will try to get through as much
    of the question portion as we can. When we break for votes, we
    are just going to end the portion of the committee hearing
    here. When we come back for votes, we will go straight to the
    SCIF, so I would ask the panelists to head on down to the SCIF
    when we leave for votes.
        Mr. Gonzalez, following the Paris attack in November, there
    were press reports that indicated that the EU was considering
    tighter and systematic ID checks. Let me back up. Press reports
    and other reports surfaced that a Syrian individual, under
    investigation for participating in the attacks, had traveled to
    Brazil, Ecuador, and Colombia in July before bribing a
    Colombian official to leave the country. INTERPOL stated in
    November that the estimated 25,000 foreign terrorist combatants
    thought to be operating across the globe, only 5,600 have been
    identified by law enforcement agents.
        So what can you tell me about the individual that may have
    traveled to Colombia and Ecuador and Brazil and him leaving the
    country? And I would also like for you to talk about the fact
    that we have a lot of folks from Syria and other places
    traveling the tri-border region on falsified or fake documents,
    exchanging those documents, and then transiting Latin America
    either to come here or to go in other places.
        We just traveled, and we heard from the Paraguayans, and
    this continues to be the case. We saw the five Syrians that
    were apprehended in Honduras. So we know folks are traveling to
    this area. We know one of the Paris attackers possibly did. I
    would like for you to talk about that briefly, if you can.
        Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, thank you for
    taking that trip because I know this is an initiative you have
    been active on and it is something I know our whole government
    is actively devoting resources and time into. On this
    particular case, sir, we looked into, we heard the same
    reports. We looked into it and we had nothing to actually
    corroborate that it was somebody that was associated with the
    Paris attacks. In fact, what we did find was that it may have
    been a woman that was there fleeing violence from Syria. But it
    is something that we will continue to actually look into given
    the seriousness of the case and we can expand on this in the
    classified setting definitely.
        Now with regard to the tri-border region, it is a place as
    you saw when you visited Ciudad del Este, that it is a place
    that does not have active border controls and it is incredibly
    concerning. We actually talk about perhaps issues that you have
    actually been very active on as well around Hezbollah. What we
    have found is that it is a place that illegal actors will use
    actively for financing, right? So that is definitely obvious.
        What we have not been able to find is whether it is
    actually organized or whether it has actually been used as a
    stopping off point for any sort of organized attack or any sort
    of terrorist activity. However, it is a source of migration as
    the migration patterns throughout South America are incredibly
    complicated.
        And the way that we would approach this, Mr. Chairman, is
    because we are in March, I am going to use the March Madness
    analogies. We are using man-on-man defense. As the Assistant
    Secretary Alan Bersin said, it is a needle in a haystack and we
    are actually actively looking for individuals that might pose a
    threat. And then on Central America and the Caribbean where I
    have played a more active role, we are playing zone defense
    where what we have been doing is investing resources to make
    sure that there is a presence of the state and that the rule of
    law is something that is being advanced. And that helps us
    whether it is migration, whether it is trafficking in persons,
    whether it is narco-traffickers. If you are actually working to
    support the governments of the northern triangle, the southern
    triangle and other parts in the Caribbean as well, and on the
    maritime, on the aviation, on border controls, something that
    we partner with DHS on, but also more importantly not just
    regarding the physical border as the area where we would focus,
    but with the judicial sector, strengthening police, and
    actually working to address crime and violence, we have
    actually seen amazing results. And in fact, we have had a
    couple of operations recently where we have been able to
    intercept special interests, aliens from different parts of the
    world, and of course, getting these countries to defend against
    undocumented migration.
        I will say, sir, just my last point on this is that the
    majority of individuals that are traveling, be they from
    special interest alien countries or other places, we found the
    large majority of these individuals are actually fleeing
    violence from other parts of the world, but of course, we have
    to be very vigilant and we are looking at those individuals
    that might actually pose a threat and when we do, we actively
    work with these governments to respond.
        Mr. Duncan. Thank you for that. And we saw very clearly
    that there are no border controls between Brazil and Paraguay.
    In fact, in Ciudad del Este it was wide open. An armed guard or
    two, but that is about it. We learned from the Paraguayans that
    there is no border control north of there anyway. In fact, a
    county road dissects the border and so when you are driving
    down the road, you might be in Brazil, you might be in
    Paraguay. So I guess I appreciate State and DHS working very
    well with the Paraguayans on counter-narcotics and
    counterterrorism efforts and I want to continue that.
        So if we have episodes of say these five Syrians that were
    apprehended in Honduras and I think those were just the ones we
    know about that were caught, Secretary Bersin, you talked about
    a secure border. I agree that at our border checkpoints where
    we are pulling agriculture out to inspect it, we are trying to
    identify those coming across the border and at the border
    checkpoints, absolutely we are doing it a lot better than we
    ever have.
        My concern on our southern border is all the areas that we
    are not patrolling, we are not fencing, we are not apprehending
    anyone. We are actually allowing interior enforcement to have a
    lead role in that. But then the administration is actually
    relaxed with interior enforcement, as well as policies of the
    administration I hope change in the next administration. But if
    someone can transit through Latin America through the tri-
    border region, hoping to do nefarious aims in the United
    States, then they could get to Mexico, just like the
    unaccompanied children or all the migrant workers that come
    into this country enter our southern border, without going
    through a border checkpoint that you talk about.
        So I would like for you to talk a little bit about what the
    agency is doing on not the border checkpoints, not in Laredo or
    Nogales, I am talking about all those areas between the two.
    And whatever you can tell us in that because I will tell you
    this, my constituents are concerned that the soft underbelly of
    this nation is our southern border that is unsecured. If you
    can speak to that.
        Mr. Bersin. Mr. Chairman, so remembering our last exchange,
    we have a different set of experiences. I remember when this
    border was absolutely out of control when I became the U.S.
    Attorney, the so-called Border Czar in the 1990s, we were
    arresting one million, a million two, a million four unlawful
    migrants to the United States every year. That was an era when
    we had 3,000 border patrol agents, no cameras, no technology,
    and as a result of a bipartisan effort of President Clinton,
    President Bush, and President Obama, we invested $18 billion a
    year. And I simply disagree with the notion that there has been
    no difference in our southwest border. And we have 22,000
    agents, 19,000 of whom are on the southern border.
        So we have a difference of view of the relative state of
    the border. And I just think we should agree that no one
    claimed that we are ever going to seal this border like the
    Berlin Wall tried to seal people from leaving West Berlin, but
    no one should claim that it is a seamless border. That is to
    say that it is not susceptible to smuggling of people, but I
    can assure you with the number of apprehensions down at a 70-
    year low, at a time when we have 10 times the number of agents
    that I remember being on that border, the border is not what it
    used to be.
        But let me take up the----
        Mr. Duncan. Let me just speak to one comment you have made.
    If I am playing a football game, I can affect the score by not
    scoring. Apprehensions are down. I agree with you. But the
    border patrol people I talk to say the apprehensions are down
    because the administration wants them to be down.
        I still think that we have people cross our border and we
    can disagree, but you can affect the score two ways. I yield
    back to you.
        Mr. Bersin. I have talked to some of those border patrol
    union officials over the 20 years I have been involved in
    border patrol and respectfully, you should look at the axe that
    there is to grind there. The fact is that it is a disservice to
    the men and women of the United States Border Patrol, sir, to
    claim that they are not doing their job on the border. They do.
    But let us leave that argument for another day. I think I
    understand your point.
        But I would like to take up the five Syrians because I
    think they actually demonstrate good points and bad points of
    our contemporary situation. So on November 17 of 2015, five
    Syrians were encountered in Tegucigalpa, Honduras in Toncontin.
    They had arrived on a flight from Costa Rica and they presented
    photo altered Greek passports. Records checks indicated that
    the Greek passports had been reported stolen from Athens,
    Greece, and they were interviewed by HSI Transnational Criminal
    Investigative Unit agents stationed in Honduras, the TCI Units
    that Mr. Kubiak referred to. And the Syrians indicated that
    they were en route to the United States. They were placed in
    Honduran jails for 17 days and they were eventually released
    because of local laws that limited the amount of time that you
    could hold someone based on the administrative violation and
    the local asylum laws.
        Subjects then proceeded by bus to Guatemala and on March
    20th of 2016, four of the subjects were encountered at Laredo,
    Texas and they requested asylum. They were interviewed,
    processed, and transported by the border patrol and then by ERO
    to the Rio Grande Detention Center and are currently detained
    pending outcome of their asylum claims.
        So here are the good points. We are doing a lot of work
    beyond the border with foreign partners to actually identify
    threats, particularly when they come from so-called special
    interest areas. But we did not have the capacity to take any
    action to either assist the Hondurans to continue to detain and
    then to transport people because of lack of authority. People
    then got to the border and claimed asylum. And as you know,
    because of the lack of resources provided to the Immigration
    Courts, those hearings will not take place in an expedited time
    so that we can take action.
        But by the same token, they were not released simply to go
    into the country because--not because we had discovered any
    facts about any terrorist ties that they have because, in fact,
    they were fully vetted, but they were held because, in fact, we
    do not want to risk any danger from this particular population
    at this particular time.
        So I think the case is actually a good indicator of
    progress that we have made, but an enormous amount of work we
    have to do, both to assist our foreign partners to develop
    border control capacities, but also frankly, to mend our
    immigration processes here at home.
        Mr. Duncan. Thank you for that. I am going to turn to the
    ranking member.
        Mr. Sires. Thank you, Chairman. I just want to say the
    chairman put together a great codel, which was very informative
    for me. We certainly learned a lot about especially border
    crossing in some of these areas that have nothing. They just go
    back and forth without any kind of scrutiny.
        Can you define for me or discuss how the U.S. Government
    defines special interest aliens? How do you do that?
        Mr. Bersin. If I might, I would ask Mr. Gonzalez or Mr.
    Kubiak to add. There are actually different definitions in
    part, depending on different agencies, but they all tend to be
    outside the Western Hemisphere. They tend to be either a
    listing of countries. I have seen listings up to 35 countries.
    Other agencies take up a more restricted terrorist-related or a
    terrorist-centric view of the definition. But I take your
    point.
        We have no standard definition of special interest aliens,
    but I will tell you that consistent with Mr. Kubiak's point,
    when it comes to the checks that DHS personnel are making in
    Panama and Mexico, we take the biometrics of every person who
    is from outside the hemisphere so that we can check them
    against the holdings of the United States Government.
        Mr. Sires. Because I am thinking we were in Costa Rica. We
    went with the President and obviously, Costa Rica is going
    through this issue with the Cubans and the Costa Rica
    Government coming through, but only 60 percent of those people
    going through there are Cubans. They said 40 percent were
    basically other nationalities, from Africa, from Bangladesh,
    Pakistan. Do you determine--how do you determine there which
    ones are of special interest to us?
        Mr. Bersin. First, Mr. Sires, with due respect, I was
    corrected recently in preparation for the hearing on the
    proportion of special interest aliens. In fact, the large
    majority of people who are coming up from Panama into Costa
    Rica are actually Cubans. Three quarters of the flows are
    actually Cubans at this juncture and the number of special
    interest aliens from outside the hemisphere are actually a
    relatively smaller percentage. And a small number in terms of
    we are talking about 4,000 or 5,000.
        Mr. Sires. In my view, a smaller number is easier to get
    through our borders because you tend to pile them up together
    with the other people.
        Mr. Bersin. So in fact, having visited, then in fact, I
    would urge because I agree with Mr. Gonzalez and the chairman
    and you, Ranking Member, that visiting the five border areas is
    an eye opener and an important insight for American public
    servants, legislators, and Executive Branch alike, I suggest
    that you consider going down to Meteti in the Darien in Panama
    to view the work that is being done by HSI and Customs and
    Border Protection in concert with the American Embassy and
    Ambassador John Feeley in Panama.
        It is interesting, but the arrangement we have there, Mr.
    Sires, is that we stop people, the Panamanians stop, detain
    people, for 7 or 10 days or longer depending on whether or not
    they come from a particular country, so that we can actually
    take their fingerprints and then check them so that, in fact,
    we can identify any high-risk persons coming through. But most
    of those people coming up through Panama are not special
    interest aliens.
        Mr. Sires. But you know my concern, right? Sometimes they
    get bundled in with the rest. But you said, did I hear you
    correctly? You said special interest aliens, you have one set
    of definitions, you have another set of definitions. There is
    no one set definition.
        Mr. Gonzalez. So Congressman, I think first to your other
    question, if I may, sir, I think part of the migration issue
    that we are facing, and Mr. Kubiak has some excellent examples
    of, we are cooperating with DHS and HSI to address the issues.
    Regardless of the definition of special interest aliens, in
    some regards, the flows that are coming through are ones that
    are taking up bandwidth for border officials, right? And a lot
    of this is a result of what I would say is less than strict
    immigration standards in some of these countries that actually
    led to what you saw as the almost 8,000 Cubans that ended up
    stuck in Costa Rica.
        So one of the things that we have been doing is working
    with Costa Rica, Panama, and Colombia and even Ecuador to try
    to get them to implement stricter visa standards to actually
    stamp the passports so that when they are traveling through, in
    some of these countries, Costa Rica, for example, by law has to
    deport an immigrant to the country they were just in, but if
    their passport is not stamped, it makes it complicated because
    they don't actually show what their travel route is.
        So we are actually working with them on the kind of reforms
    that they have to undertake. But then when they actually are--
    there are third country nationals that are in the country, what
    we will do is we will work with DHS and others to try to see if
    there is anybody of interest in that group that we need to
    actually--that poses a law enforcement challenge. And we can
    dive into this in the classified briefing to a certain extent,
    but it has been a two-pronged approach.
        And to your question, sir, just on the special interest
    aliens is DoD has a larger definition than the State Department
    does and a lot of it has to do with where the--I think our
    number is either 38--36 or 38, and I can confirm that. And DoD
    has a 39 number. DHS has a more expansive number. And a lot of
    it has to do with countries that you see as posing a risk. So I
    think DHS poses a wider net because of the migration issues
    that they, of course, are working on.
        Mr. Kubiak. Sir, it is exactly your question for the reason
    I didn't use special interest alien in my opening statement
    because we are trying to get away from that term, specific
    terminology, because of this inherent problem that you have
    just identified. What we are referring to is third country
    nationals not from the Western Hemisphere, in other words,
    people from outside of our regional world. And it is specific
    because we are not necessarily worried about specific
    nationalities although there is some higher threat in certain
    areas of the world.
        What we are worried about are bad actors within those
    communities, to your point exactly, and it is the ones and twos
    along the way that may have some intentional bad harm that we
    need to ferret out as Mr. Bersin said, shrink the haystack to
    make sure that we have really the best information possible
    about those that intend harm to the United States or to the
    region. And so it is programs like bitmap and our Transnational
    Criminal Investigative Units that we have worked in partnership
    with the other government agencies that allow us, and in the
    classified setting, I will get into much more detail in a
    couple of examples to give you how this exactly is working, but
    we are able to identify individuals to collect biometrics long
    before they get to the United States. Mr. Bersin did hint at
    even in some cases when we are able to do that, we are not able
    to then stop their forward and onward progression to the United
    States where they can show up at a port of entry and claim some
    form of relief.
        Mr. Sires. I have other questions, but we will get to it
    later. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Duncan. Mr. Yoho.
        Mr. Yoho. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate all of
    you being here. Mr. Bersin, I appreciate the briefing before we
    went down to South America. It was a great trip. And I thought
    it was interesting when we were talking about the border
    security there in the tri-border area how they were telling us
    how lax it was, but when we met with some of the dignitaries,
    they said oh, no, we have got good border security. I saw a
    disconnect there.
        I think we are all in agreement that border security is a
    national security issue. That is something we all take
    seriously. Obviously, you do, but yet we see the lapses, and I
    appreciate the work that you guys have done from the 1990s to
    today, but it is a different game today. Back then, we were
    worried more about people coming into this country wanting
    jobs, wanting a better life, wanting opportunity and the drug
    trafficking. Today, we have got people that want to do us harm
    and it is like a cake. You only need one drop of kerosene to
    mess up the whole batter and we can't afford any of that. And
    certainly we have seen that in what is going on in the European
    Union with Brussels, with Paris, with these attacks that like
    you said, is going to shut down our whole economy. It is their
    9/11. Can we afford another one? Or do we want another one of
    those here in the United States?
        And you are talking about the control. Before 9/11, we were
    pretty lax. 9/11 taught us a lesson. Now we have got TSA. Now
    we are doing checks at the curb, more perimeter checks before
    they even get into the airport. Where do we go next? Do the
    people just--five miles out from the airport? Or is it people
    coming into the cities, the people coming into a state? At what
    point do we say enough is enough and really crack down or find
    a different way to crack down?
        Border security to me is a national security issue that has
    to be done. And I disagree with Mr. Trump wanting to build a
    wall. I don't think we need that. I think we have the
    technology, the personnel, and resources that we can do a good
    job, but it can't be done by itself. It has to be done with
    enforcement of the laws already on the book. Because right now
    there is a global policy around the world. People say there is
    a magnet, it is a global policy of unenforcement of immigration
    laws, that if you get to this area you get in and you get your
    pass go card, pass jail free card. It is the lottery for so
    many people. And they are struggling to do whatever they can to
    get here and if we can change some things and this is what I
    would like to hear from you guys.
        Mr. Kubiak, you were talking about what you guys are doing
    on immigration and customs. I visited the Jacksonville Custom
    and Border Patrol people and they gave me several cases of
    where people were picked up. They took them back, put them on
    the plane to Honduras. A week later, they see them on I-10
    driving by the same guy that deported them and the guy is
    smiling at our Custom and Border Patrol agent and it happens
    over and over again. They had several cases they showed me of
    convicted felons, whether it was DUIs or whether it was drugs
    or robbery that were deported, but they are back in this
    country because there is a revolving door. Plus, we were told
    there were directives coming out of the DHS and out of the
    White House and it was called PEP, the Presidential Enforcement
    Preference, where they are not enforcing or being told to let
    these people go.
        So we can do all the right things and I commend the Custom
    and Border Patrol agents. They are doing the right thing, but
    when you have policies that are counter-productive, it is
    putting American lives at risk. All we have to do is look at
    the story of Kate Steinle, the young lady that was murdered out
    in San Francisco in a sanctuary city. We are working on
    defunding those kinds of cities, but not holding these people
    accountable and not allowing them back in. And when they are
    brought back in, they either need to be incarcerated or they
    need to make sure their host country keeps them in there.
        We just saw what happened over the weekend in the
    Farmington neighborhood up here in Maryland where four people,
    three of them I think had already been deported one or two
    times, they are back in this area, causing crimes on American
    citizens. This is something that until we change, have a
    paradigm shift in how we deal with this. It is going to
    continue, and then God forbid that terrorist comes in illegally
    that should have been stopped, like you brought up in Honduras
    that didn't make it into Texas, luckily four of them got picked
    up. Was there one that didn't get picked up?
        So they picked the one up, but how many have come through
    that haven't been picked up?
        So what would you do, what would you recommend to us and I
    heard you, Mr. Bersin, say that until we change how these other
    countries deal with the people that were picked up and how we
    can deport them, what needs to change on this end to force
    those countries to do that? Is it withholding foreign aid? It
    is changing laws on our books? I would like to hear from both
    of you on that, what we need to do here to put an end to this
    because right now I see a revolving door on too many things and
    it is just a matter of time before somebody comes in and we
    have a problem.
        Mr. Kubiak. Thank you, sir. Thank you for the questions and
    for the opportunity to address. So just to answer your question
    first, the last question first, part of what I am seeing and
    that I mentioned in the opening statement to a degree is as you
    mentioned in the 1990s, prior to 9/11, we had different border
    strategy and we have changed that a lot over time. What I am
    seeing through our international partnership and engagement
    with our foreign counterparts and through our collaboration
    with State Department is that that is changing as well down in
    Central America, South America, and Mexico.
        Specifically, in Mexico, we have seen an increased
    engagement over the last 2 years unlike I have ever seen before
    where they are attempting to address and they have a long way
    to go like we did pre-9/11 to the situation that we are today.
    But I think one of the things that we can do from here is a
    continued and constant capability building. We are never going
    to be able to enforce our way out of the illegal immigration
    floor solely. We have to have some impact on what we refer to
    as the push and pull factors that cause immigration. And so as
    you know, I am sure from your visit, a lot of the push factors
    are involved with reducing violence in the countries from which
    people are coming, Syria being the most tragic example, I
    think, and what is driving people out of that country. To
    continue to grow their economies so that we don't get as many
    economic migrants moving this way, and then to also work on
    reducing, as Mr. Bersin said, some of the immigration
    challenges that we have in the United States and some of the
    loopholes that we are able to address.
        Mr. Yoho. Well, just along that line, the ``ag'' guest
    worker program, the H-1B visa, we have got farmers in our
    district that are going through the right process, they are
    recruiting the worker, they are going through the visa process.
    They get them into the United States. The workers know that the
    rules aren't going to be enforced, so they leave that farm and
    go into a different field of operation. Our farmers are calling
    ICE and ICE says nothing we can do. Those policies need to
    change on this end because it will put a stop on the change of
    people coming over here. And until we do that, people are just
    saying hey, get to America, they are not going to enforce that.
    Don't worry about it.
        Those are the things that I want to see changed. And what
    do you need to do in your agency, who is preventing you from
    enforcing those laws on the book? Is it a directive coming out
    the White House?
        Mr. Kubiak. Sir, nobody is preventing us. We have
    resources. The priorities have been set by the Secretary.
        Mr. Yoho. Secretary of?
        Mr. Kubiak. Secretary Johnson.
        Mr. Yoho. Okay.
        Mr. Kubiak. Department of Homeland Security, that outlines
    the way that immigration----
        Mr. Yoho. Why would they allow people to leave those H-1B
    visa that the farmer goes through to accomplish to get that
    person here legally? Why would they allow that not to be
    enforced?
        Mr. Kubiak. Sir, I am not----
        Mr. Yoho. I'm sorry, it is H2-A visa.
        Mr. Kubiak. Yes, I apologize. I am not familiar
    specifically with that particular issue. I did spend some time
    as a special agent in charge in Northern New York where I
    worked with the U.S. Attorney's Office and we did do work in
    that----
        Mr. Yoho. Those are the things that if we can change them
    and enforce it, it would stop that magnet and that pool of
    people saying, hey, don't worry about it, man. They are slack
    on that. They are not going to do anything. And then you are
    going to get this--the radical jihadist terrorist that is going
    to come through on a work visa and they are going to come in
    that way and that is--you know, I want to know who is going to
    be held accountable for that, what agency, what department? Who
    is going to answer to the kids, to the family, or the parents
    that got damaged in that attack? Yes, we should have enforced
    those laws, but we didn't. We are all going to have to answer
    to that and I don't want to answer that.
        Let us see. And then the other thing that was brought up
    when I was visiting there, there was 1200 miles of coastline in
    Florida. We have 90 CBP, Custom Border Patrol agents, 70 boots
    on the ground. They did 4,000 arrests in the State of Florida
    or in that whole district. And they need more agents is what I
    was told, but there is some Northeast states that have 400
    agents and they do 50 arrests a year. And is there a way to
    adjust those for need?
        Mr. Bersin. I am probably best equipped to respond to that.
    So the allocation formulas by region, Mr. Yoho, depend on a
    variety of factors. Arrests are one, but you could imagine a
    colleague in Vermont or Michigan, North Dakota, South Dakota
    that would still be concerned about having a sufficient number
    of agents there to patrol the territory they are responsible
    for.
        So arrests are one, but not--I think CBP and Commissioner
    Kerlikowske can speak or Deputy McAleenan more directly to
    current practice. There is a pretty sophisticated workforce
    allocation model that takes into account a variety of matters
    which accounts, frankly, for the fact that of the 22,000 Border
    Patrol agents, 19,000 are in the 6 states--the 4 states of the
    Southwest border.
        If I might though, address two issues on what we could be
    doing abroad. So when, in fact, the CBP and HSI officers in
    Panama and Meteti are running against special interest aliens
    or third country nationals, there is no capacity of the
    Panamanians right now to hold and detain large numbers. And the
    problem that we run into all the way up toward the Southwest
    border is that we often have trouble getting travel documents
    to be able to deport and to assist. There is no funding to
    support Panama or the Central American countries to do their
    own deportations in a systematic way. As we know from our
    experience, it takes a system to actually apprehend, detain,
    care for, and then deport a person who has no lawful right to
    be in a particular country. The Central American countries are
    at the very threshold of being able to develop that. But it
    would help, actually, and I could go into specifics with you
    and I would be happy to do it offline. There are a number of
    authorities at DRO that ICE does not have acting abroad that
    would permit it to actually assist in the deportation of people
    other than from the United States.
        The second point, I have to go back and remind you that we
    have 243 Immigration Judges in this country, and we have 2000
    Federal Judges. You cannot get the job done in a lawful,
    speedy, secure way with the paucity of resources. And when
    President Obama in 2014 asked the Congress for the resources to
    build an Immigration Court, we know what happened to that bill.
    The problems we have to address internally as well as abroad,
    sir. I grant you that premise.
        Mr. Duncan. We will stand in recess. We will reconvene in
    the SCIF after votes.
        [Whereupon, at 2:56 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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