[House Hearing, 114 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
THE NEEDS OF DRINKING WATER SYSTEMS IN
RURAL AND SMALLER COMMUNITIES
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND THE ECONOMY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
FEBRUARY 27, 2015
__________
Serial No. 114-15
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Printed for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce
energycommerce.house.gov
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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
FRED UPTON, Michigan
Chairman
JOE BARTON, Texas FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
Chairman Emeritus Ranking Member
ED WHITFIELD, Kentucky BOBBY L. RUSH, Illinois
JOHN SHIMKUS, Illinois ANNA G. ESHOO, California
JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
GREG WALDEN, Oregon GENE GREEN, Texas
TIM MURPHY, Pennsylvania DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas LOIS CAPPS, California
MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee MICHAEL F. DOYLE, Pennsylvania
Vice Chairman JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
STEVE SCALISE, Louisiana G.K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio DORIS O. MATSUI, California
CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington KATHY CASTOR, Florida
GREGG HARPER, Mississippi JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
LEONARD LANCE, New Jersey JERRY McNERNEY, California
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky PETER WELCH, Vermont
PETE OLSON, Texas BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
DAVID B. McKINLEY, West Virginia PAUL TONKO, New York
MIKE POMPEO, Kansas JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky
ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia DAVID LOEBSACK, Iowa
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida KURT SCHRADER, Oregon
BILL JOHNSON, Ohio JOSEPH P. KENNEDY, III,
BILLY LONG, Missouri Massachusetts
RENEE L. ELLMERS, North Carolina TONY CARDENAS, California
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana
BILL FLORES, Texas
SUSAN W. BROOKS, Indiana
MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina
CHRIS COLLINS, New York
KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
7_____
Subcommittee on Environment and the Economy
JOHN SHIMKUS, Illinois
Chairman
GREGG HARPER, Vice Chairman PAUL TONKO, New York
Vice Chairman Ranking Member
ED WHITFIELD, Kentucky KURT SCHRADER, Oregon
JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania GENE GREEN, Texas
TIM MURPHY, Pennsylvania DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio LOIS CAPPS, California
DAVID B. McKINLEY, West Virginia MICHAEL F. DOYLE, Pennsylvania
BILL JOHNSON, Ohio JERRY McNERNEY, California
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana TONY CARDENAS, California
BILL FLORES, Texas FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey (ex
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina officio)
KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
FRED UPTON, Michigan (ex officio)
(ii)
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hon. John Shimkus, a Representative in Congress from the State of
Illinois, opening statement.................................... 1
Prepared statement........................................... 2
Hon. Paul Tonko, a Representative in Congress from the State of
New York, opening statement.................................... 3
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
State of New Jersey, opening statement......................... 4
Witnesses
J. Alfredo Gomez, Director, Natural Resources and Environment,
Government Accountability Office............................... 6
Prepared statement........................................... 9
Answers to submitted questions............................... 81
Hon. Joe Keegan, Mayor, Castleton-on-Hudson, New York, on Behalf
of New York Rural Water Association............................ 24
Prepared statement........................................... 27
Katetra ``K.T.'' Newman, on Behalf of National Rural Water
Association.................................................... 32
Prepared statement........................................... 34
Bobby Selman, on Behalf of Mississippi Rural Water Association... 39
Prepared statement........................................... 41
Robert Stewart, Executive Director, Rural Community Assistance
Partnership.................................................... 45
Prepared statement........................................... 47
Answers to submitted questions............................... 85
Submitted Material
Letter of February 27, 2015, from Renee Sharp, Director of
Research, Environmental Working Group, to Mr. Shimkus, and
report, ``Water Treatment Contaminants: Forgotten Toxins in
American Water,'' February 2013, Environmental Working Group,
\1\ submitted by Mr. Shimkus................................... 80
----------
\1\ The information has been retained in committee files and also
is available at http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF18/
20150227/103031/HHRG-114-IF18-20150227-SD005.pdf.
THE NEEDS OF DRINKING WATER SYSTEMS IN RURAL AND SMALLER COMMUNITIES
----------
FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2015
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Environment and the Economy,
Committee on Energy and Commerce,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:01 a.m., in
room 2322, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. John Shimkus
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Members present: Representatives Shimkus, Harper,
Whitfield, Murphy, Latta, McKinley, Johnson, Bucshon, Hudson,
Cramer, Tonko, Schrader, Green, McNerney, and Pallone (ex
officio).
Staff present: Nick Abraham, Legislative Clerk; Charlotte
Baker, Deputy Communications Director; Leighton Brown, Press
Assistant; Jerry Couri, Senior Environmental Policy Advisor;
Dave McCarthy, Chief Counsel, Environment and the Economy;
Chris Santini, Policy Coordinator, Oversight and
Investigations; Chris Sarley, Policy Coordinator, Environment
and the Economy; Jacqueline Cohen, Democratic Senior Counsel;
and Caitlin Haberman, Democratic Professional Staff Member
Mr. Shimkus. I would like to call the hearing to order and
recognize myself for an opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN SHIMKUS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Today's hearing focuses on challenges facing rural water
systems. I congratulate and thank the ranking member of the
subcommittee Mr. Tonko and the vice chairman of the
subcommittee, Mr. Harper, for their bipartisan work to raise
the profile of this issue before this subcommittee.
According to the Census Bureau, approximately 27 percent of
the U.S. population lives in rural areas. The smallest water
systems account for 77 percent of all systems. As someone who
proudly represents communities in small town in rural America,
I am glad we have bipartisan interest in tackling this subject.
Under the Safe Drinking Water Act, small and rural drinking
water supply systems are subject to a number of drinking water
regulations issued by EPA. These requirements include systems
monitoring, treatment to remove certain contaminants, and
reporting. Addressing these matters requires technical,
managerial, and physical capabilities that are difficult to
develop and are often beyond the capacity of these towns to
afford on the same scale as urban centers, particularly when it
comes to regulatory compliance.
It is ironic that these communities where residents work
hard to support their families and their local governments,
while often earning wages below those of their counterparts in
the more urbanized area, face per-customer compliance costs and
demands that are disproportionate to many larger communities.
Sometimes it is just a matter of having the ability to keep up
with the red tape.
While I am sure we will explore the funding mechanisms
under EPA, the Agriculture Department, and other Federal
agencies, it is not just a matter of throwing more scarce money
at the problem. Rather, it is about smartly assessing what the
needs are for these systems, prioritizing the importance of
those needs, finding out whether the current system can be
improved to remove unnecessary burdens and eliminate
bureaucracy, and examining whether voluntary or other
collaboratory efforts can aid where Congress cannot.
I want to thank our witnesses who have put their lives on
hold to battle the elements and join us. People who live in
rural communities deserve every bit of the water quality and
technical resources that folks who lives in densely populated
urban centers do. We look forward to your wisdom in helping us
understand these issues.
Thanks again to Mr. Tonko and Mr. Harper for their work on
this issue. I know Mr. Tonko has an interest in addressing some
drinking water issues, and I appreciate the work he and Mr.
Harper are doing to break the ice with this first effort.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Shimkus follows:]
Prepared statement of Hon. John Shimkus
Today's hearing focuses on challenges facing rural water
systems. I congratulate and thank the ranking member of the
subcommittee, Mr. Tonko, and the vice chairman of the
subcommittee, Mr. Harper, for their bipartisan work to raise
the profile of this issue before the subcommittee.
According to the Census Bureau, approximately 27 percent of
the U.S. population lives in a rural area. The smallest water
systems account for 77 percent of all systems. As someone who
proudly represents communities in small town and rural America,
I am glad we have bipartisan interest in tackling this subject.
Under the Safe Drinking Water Act, small and rural drinking
water supply systems are subject to a number of drinking water
regulations issued by EPA. These requirements include system
monitoring, treatment to remove certain contaminants, and
reporting. Addressing these matters requires technical,
managerial, and physical capabilities that are difficult to
develop and are often beyond the capacity of these towns to
afford on the same scale as urban centers--particularly when it
comes to regulatory compliance.
It's ironic that these communities, where residents work
hard to support their families and their local governments,
while often earning wages below those of their counterparts in
the more urbanized areas, face per customer compliance costs
and demands that are disproportionate to many larger
communities. Sometimes, it's just a matter of having the
ability to keep up with the red-tape.
While I am sure we will explore the funding mechanisms
under EPA, the Agriculture Department, and other Federal
agencies, it's not just a matter of throwing more scarce money
at the problem. Rather, it's about smartly assessing what the
needs are for these systems, prioritizing the importance of
those needs, finding out whether the current system can be
improved to remove unnecessary burdens and eliminate
bureaucracy, and examining whether voluntary or other
collaborative efforts can aid where Congress cannot.
I want to thank our witnesses who have put their lives on
hold to battle the elements and join us. People who live in
rural communities deserve every bit of water quality and
technical resources that folks who live in densely populated
urban centers do. We look forward to your wisdom in helping us
understand these issues.
Thanks again to Mr. Tonko and Mr. Harper for their work on
this issue. I know Mr. Tonko has an interest in addressing some
drinking water issues and I appreciate the work he and Mr.
Harper are doing to break the ice with this first effort.
Mr. Shimkus. With that, I would like to yield to the vice
chair for the remainder of my time.
Mr. Harper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I appreciate you holding this hearing on the needs of
drinking water systems in rural and smaller communities.
Like you and many other members of Congress, I represent a
rural district where many of my constituents get their drinking
water from smaller cities, towns, and water associations.
According to the National Rural Water Association, more
than 90 percent of the community water systems across the
United States serve a population less than 10,000 individuals.
These smaller communities do an incredible job of providing our
constituents with clean, safe drinking water, but are often at
a disadvantage because of economics of scale and a need for
more technical expertise.
I know that this as an important issue to you, Mr. Chairman
and the ranking member, and I thank you for the opportunity to
continue working on legislation to ensure our constituents get
the help and clean water they need.
I would like to say welcome to my fellow Mississippians,
Mr. Newman, Mr. Selman, and thank them for providing their
insight to the subcommittee today.
Mr. Chairman, thank you again for your commitment on this
issue, and I yield back.
Mr. Shimkus. The gentleman yields back his time.
And I have a remaining minute left.
Does anyone seek recognition on my side? If not, the Chair
now recognizes the ranking member of the subcommittee, Mr.
Tonko, for 5 minutes.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. PAUL TONKO, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK
Mr. Tonko. Well, thank you and good morning to our
witnesses.
And thank you, Chair Shimkus, for holding this important
hearing on what is a very vital topic and appreciate the
opportunity to work in partnership with our Vice Chair Harper
as we address, again, a very important phenomenon for all of
our communities across the country.
We have all heard the often repeated statistics about rural
and small water systems. More than 94 percent of the 150,000
public drinking water systems in the United States serve fewer
than 3300 customers. Although small systems dominate in
numbers, they serve just about 8 percent of our population
overall. But to households and businesses across this great
country, the key feature they are interested in is not the size
of their water utility. It is reliable, daily delivery of safe
clean water at an affordable price to their homes and
businesses that matters.
We will hear from managers of these small systems here this
morning. And what we will hear is that they cannot simply pass
all of their costs for technical assistance, infrastructure
repairs, tapping into new water sources, or keeping pace with
drinking water regulations onto their customers with ongoing
rate increases. The rate bases for these small systems are too
small to cover the costs of these essential materials and
services. It is long past time for us here in Congress to
provide robust financial support for our water utilities.
In addition to support through traditional funding
mechanisms, the SRF, and grant programs, we should also examine
alternative financing mechanisms, new technologies, and
potential new partnerships that will enable every dollar to go
forward in reducing the backlog of infrastructure projects and
in ways reducing operating costs through efficiency, both water
and energy.
I am very pleased to have Mayor Keegan here this morning to
represent the small water utilities that serve people
throughout our State, New York. Mayor Keegan and our witnesses
from Representative Harper's district in Mississippi will
provide us with a glimpse of the challenges they face each and
every day in their efforts to deliver clean safe drinking water
to their public. They do a remarkable job in keeping clean
water flowing to every home, every day.
Water infrastructure is essential. It is the only way to
state it. We can afford to do this. We cannot afford to delay
these investments any longer. Public health, community
viability, and economic vitality all rest on the foundation of
a sound infrastructure. We cannot maintain global leadership
and compete in a 21st century global economy with 20th century
infrastructure held together with a hope and a prayer.
We have an excellent panel with us today. Thank you for
taking time away from your important work and busy schedules to
be here to do your messaging this morning.
And thank you, Mayor Keegan, Mayor Newman--Mr. Newman, Mr.
Selman, and Mr. Stewart for the expertise and dedication you
will demonstrate to your communities--that you demonstrate to
your communities each and every day at work. I look forward to
your testimony and to working with each and every one of you as
we move forward.
And I am very pleased to working with the chair of the
subcommittee and with our vice chair, Representative Harper,
and other members of the subcommittee on this very important
issue.
With that, I thank you.
And, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
Mr. Shimkus. Gentleman yields back his time.
Chair now looks to the Republican side. Anybody seek
recognition? Seeing no one, the Chair now recognizes the
ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Pallone, for 5
minutes.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY
Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Tonko.
Customers of all public water systems, large and small,
wealth and disadvantaged deserve safe affordable drinking
water. Unfortunately, public water systems across the country
are facing staggering infrastructure replacement costs and
emerging threats, including climate change.
Resource is essential to any conversation about safe
drinking water. Much of our Nation's drinking water
infrastructure is well beyond its useful life and in desperate
need of replacement. Investing in drinking water infrastructure
protects public health, creates jobs, and boosts the economy.
This is particularly important in the case of small and rural
systems in which even minor projects can be unaffordable. And I
thank the chairman for calling this hearing to examine some of
the challenges these systems face.
In 1996, this committee passed amendments to the Safe
Drinking Water Act that set a number of programs intended to
help small and rural water systems. Those programs focused on
capacity development, operator certification, infrastructure,
funding, and technical assistance. All of them are designed to
ensure the customers of small systems receive safe and
affordable drinking water. The small pot of money set aside for
technical assistance distributed through grantees, such as the
National Rural Water Association and the Rural Community
Assistance Partnership, have been incredibly important for
small assistance. And I am glad that both NRWA and RCAP
represented here today to discuss any changes that might be
needed to strengthen the program.
I expect we are going to hear that the need for technical
assistance far outpaces the funding available. And I hope my
colleagues on the other side of the aisle will join with us to
ensure that this program is given sufficient funding to meet
the requirements of small systems.
But the same is true for the drinking water State Revolving
Fund or SRF. If we really want to ensure that small and rural
systems are providing safe and affordable water, we should
reauthorize the whole SRF, not just the technical assistance
piece. The technical assistance piece is less than 2 percent of
the whole pot, so we should not lose sight of the bigger
picture.
For disadvantaged communities, the 1996 amendments allow
States to provide additional support through the SRF and most
funding from the SRF goes out as loans. But for disadvantaged
communities, States are authorized to provide zero interest
loans or even principal forgiveness. For small and rural
systems with small customers bases, this is incredibly
important.
But unfortunately States are not currently required to
provide this assistance to disadvantaged communities and not
all do. This assistance may become even scarcer in coming years
as the overall drinking water infrastructure need continues to
grow faster than the available funding.
When this subcommittee moved legislation to address toxic
algae, I expressed my hope that it would be the start of
broader drinking water work. And I am pleased that the chairman
is now addressing another important drinking water issue. But
as I said at the hearing on the toxic algae, our responsibility
on drinking water is comprehensive. Small systems serve only 8
percent of the population. We should absolutely do what is
necessary to ensure they have safe water, but we should also
protect the other 92 percent and means reauthorizing the SRF,
ensuring that fracking is done safely, ensuring source water
protection, addressing drought and planning, of course, for
climate change.
So I look forward to more drinking water hearings and more
bipartisan conversations about some legislative solutions.
And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Shimkus. Gentlemen yield backs his time.
Now, the Chair would like to welcome our panel. I will
introduce you one at a time. Your full statement is submitted
for the record. You will have 5 minutes. Again, we expect votes
between 10:45 and 11:15. I think we will get through the
opening statements, and then we will see how it goes.
So, with that, I would like to first recognize Mr. Alfredo
Gomez, Director of the natural resources and environmental area
for the Government Accountability Office. Welcome, sir. And you
are recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENTS OF J. ALFREDO GOMEZ, DIRECTOR, NATURAL RESOURCES AND
ENVIRONMENT, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE; HON. JOE KEEGAN,
MAYOR, CASTLETON-ON-HUDSON, NEW YORK, ON BEHALF OF NEW YORK
RURAL WATER ASSOCIATION; KATETRA ``K.T.'' NEWMAN, ON BEHALF OF
NATIONAL RURAL WATER ASSOCIATION; BOBBY SELMAN, ON BEHALF OF
MISSISSIPPI RURAL WATER ASSOCIATION; AND ROBERT STEWART,
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, RURAL COMMUNITY ASSISTANCE PARTNERSHIP
STATEMENT OF J. ALFREDO GOMEZ
Mr. Gomez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, everyone, Ranking Member Tonko, and members
of the subcommittee.
I am pleased to be here today to discuss the infrastructure
needs----
Mr. Shimkus. If you just pull that a little bit closer.
And, for our other panelists, if you notice, there is a button
in the middle and so hit that button when it is time to speak.
And just pull that mike a little bit closer.
Thank you.
Mr. Gomez. OK. Thank you.
So I am pleased to be here today to discuss the
infrastructure needs facing rural communities across the
Nation, particularly for drinking water systems. The U.S. faces
costly upgrades to aging water infrastructure. The demand for
drinking water and wastewater infrastructure projects in
communities with populations of 10,000 and fewer is estimated
to be more than $190 billion in coming decades.
My statement today summarizes the results of our reports on
rural water infrastructure. I will focus on two main areas,
first rural agencies funding for drinking water and wastewater
infrastructure and issues affecting rural communities abilities
to obtain funding for this type of infrastructure.
First, Federal agencies administer programs that can
provide funding and technical assistance to rural communities
to help them build drinking water and wastewater systems and
comply with Federal regulations. EPA's drinking water and its
clean water State Revolving Fund programs, known as the SRFs,
provide the most funding, totaling 907 million and 1.5 billion
respectively in fiscal year 2014. States are required to
provide at least 15 percent of the drinking water SRF funds to
water systems that serve 10,000 people or fewer. The Department
of Agriculture's rural utility service program is the next
largest program at 485 million in fiscal year 2014, all of
which goes to rural communities.
Some of the other agencies that can provide funding to
rural communities include the Department of Housing and Urban
Development, the Economic Development Administration, and the
Bureau of Reclamation. While these agencies can provide funding
for drinking water and wastewater infrastructure in rural
communities, they have varying eligibility criteria that may
focus funding to specific communities on the basis of
population size, economic need, and geographic location.
Second, our previous report found several issues that
affect rural communities' ability to obtain funding for
drinking water and wastewater infrastructure. These issues
include financing, technical expertise, and agency
coordination. And both Chairman Shimkus and Ranking Member
Tonko and others have already noted some of these challenges.
Now, with regard to financing, communities typically did
not have the number of users needed to share the cost of major
infrastructure projects while maintaining affordable users
rates. In addition, rural communities generally have limited
access to financial markets, restricting their ability to use
bonds to raise capital. As a result, these communities depended
heavily on Federal and State funding.
Rural communities also did not generally have the technical
expertise to rebuild or replace their drinking water and
wastewater systems. We found they had few staff and often hire
consultants and engineers to help them design projects,
including preliminary engineering reports, plans, and
environmental documents. Agencies provide for some technical
assistance that communities can use.
Lastly, we found that Federal communities face potentially
duplicative application requirements when applying for multiple
State or Federal programs. This included preparing more than
one preliminary engineering report and environmental analysis,
which likely made it more costly and time-consuming for
communities to complete the application process.
We recommended several actions to improve coordination
among the agencies and programs. In response, as of February
2015, EPA and the Department of Agriculture have developed a
uniform preliminary engineering report template that applies to
multiple programs. Seven States have adopted the template for
their use. EPA and USDA have also begun taking steps to develop
guidelines to assist States in developing uniform environmental
analyses.
In summary, the Nation's drinking water and wastewater
infrastructure needs are large and funding them will be
challenging. Rural communities face additional challenges in
funding their infrastructure needs, given the financial
technical expertise and coordination challenges they face
overall. Federal agencies with States should consider how to
ease communities' efforts to obtain funding, provide technical
assistance, and better coordinate agency efforts.
Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Tonko, that concludes my
statement. I would be happy to answer any questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Gomez follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Shimkus. Thank you very much.
Now, I would like to recognize Mayor Joseph Keegan,
obviously mentioned by my ranking member, Mr. Tonko, from
upstate New York. I see it is Castleton on the Hudson as a----
Mr. Tonko. Castleton on the Hudson.
Mr. Shimkus. And I know the Hudson. I lived in a small
technical school down south on the river, the West Point school
for wayward boys. So that is my alma mater and so I know the
river and the valley real well. So welcome, and we are glad to
have to you.
You are recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF JOE KEEGAN
Mr. Keegan. Thank you.
Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee.
And my congressman, good morning, Congressman Tonko.
I am Joe Keegan, the mayor of a charming little village a
few miles south of Albany, New York, on the banks of the Hudson
River called Castleton-on-Hudson. We have a population of
approximately 1,500 of the best people anywhere. My village is
a member of the New York Rural Water Association, a nonprofit
organization of small and rural communities throughout the
State, which is somewhat responsible for my appearance here
today. I got a call from the association on Monday asking about
my availability, and I just happened to be traveling back to
Castleton last night from a trip related to my day job.
My village is very typical and representative of
communities that have water supplies in New York and the rest
of the country. According to the U.S. Environmental Protection
Agency, the State of New York has 2,305 community water
systems, 88 percent of those serve populations under 3,300. All
of the small community and water and sewer utilities have to
comply with the same regulations, testing, and certifications
as the biggest cities, but with only our very small rate payer
base. And we have to operate, maintain, and update our water
infrastructure with very small budgets.
As a small community mayor, my number one concern and worry
is drinking water and number two is wastewater. Everything else
is a distant third. If there is a problem with the drinking
water, it has to be addressed immediately, middle of the night,
middle of the winter. It doesn't matter when. Every citizen and
especially the most vulnerable depend on the safety of the
water, including families with infants, schools, our nursing
homes, and people with compromised immune systems. We can't
have any contamination of the drinking water. Our sewer system
also needs to function properly to avoid any possibility of a
sewage spill or sewage backup into people's homes.
I would say to you that this really does keep me up at
night. Congressman Tonko knows that, right now, our part of the
State is buried in snow. Just last week, the frost penetrated
the ground so deeply that we experienced two ruptures in our
water mains that are 5 to 6 feet underground. This forced us to
issue a boiled water advisory where we have to tell families to
boil water as well as contact all the schools. They have to
cover their water fountains, the press, the nursing home, et
cetera. I actually call as many citizens as I can by robo-call.
When something like this occurs, we manage the situation around
the clock, locating equipment to excavate the frozen ground,
repairing the waterline, getting the tests to the lab, and
waiting for the all-clear results to lift the boil water order.
We appreciate the assistance of the subcommittee and
Congress in helping us protect the public and successfully
operate the public drinking water and wastewater supply through
the various funding programs and the on-sight technical
assistant initiatives. My village relies on this assistance.
I want to thank Congressman Tonko for sponsoring the
Assistance Quality and Affordability Act of 2014 in the last
Congress. Small and rural communities support your legislation
because it enhanced the current Drinking Water State Revolving
Fund by further targeting the funding to communities most in
need. We do need help.
Everything from financing, regulations compliance, and the
various programs are very complicated for small communities. We
don't have financial professionals on staff and often don't
understand many of the funding processes.
We currently have needs approaching $3 million for our
wastewater system. We need new aeration tanks, new sludge
drying equipment, and new pumps as our facility is over 30
years old. We need to stop rainwater from leaking into the
system and overtaxing our capacity.
My water operator is constantly explaining to me the need
for these upgrades and his concerns of possible failure.
However, we don't really have a way to finance it. It would
triple the sewer rates to take out a loan for that much. You
can see in the picture at the back of my testimony that we have
some very old drinking water pipes that need updating or
replacing at a substantial cost. The one in the picture is
stamped with a date from the 19th century, and they are still
in the ground in parts of the village.
We are concerned that, without more waterline replacement,
we are vulnerable to more breaks and crisis. And you can see
the other picture of a tuberculated pipe we recently dug up
that is loaded with corrosion and deposits to the point it is
almost occluded.
In my remaining time, I just want to emphasize the
essential assistance we receive from the New York Rural Water
Association and explain why it is so helpful. The association
has circuit riders that are on call throughout the State that
will come and assist us immediately, including evenings and
weekends. The circuit riders are all experts in the technical
side of water operations. Just a week ago, we called for help
for locating a water leak from a ruptured pipe that could have
occurred over any part of 100 foot waterline. The circuit rider
has specialized equipment that can detect noises and vibrations
underground to locate the exact location of a break.
In addition, my operators receive 90 percent of the
training needed to retain their operator's licenses from the
New York Rural Water Association. We depend on them just like
every other small community.
Mr. Chairman, I have a lot more to say, but you have been
very charitable with your time and attention to small and rural
communities.
And on behalf of every small town elected official, we are
grateful. Thank you for hearing from us, and I will answer any
questions later.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Keegan follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Shimkus. Thank you very much.
Since my district mostly has communities below 2,500
people, I thank you for those thank-you comments because
hopefully they are paying attention, also.
Those bells signal that we have been called to vote early.
I think we will just break here. We, as a Congress, I don't
think, are going to be in a hurry today. So most of us will all
get back here and hear the final testimony and then go into
questions.
So, with that, I will recess the hearing.
[Recess.]
Mr. Shimkus. We will call the hearing back to order, and
now I will turn to Mr. K.T. Newman on behalf of the Rural Water
Association.
Sir, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF KATETRA ``K.T.'' NEWMAN
Mr. Newman. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the
subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify here
today.
My name is K.T. Newman, and I have been working for or in
small and rural community water systems in the Mississippi
Delta for nearly 20 years. I first started out as a small city
water manager in my hometown of Vaiden, Mississippi, which has
about 1,000 homes. I then worked for the Mississippi Rural
Water Association as a circuit rider for 10 years. In this
capacity, I visited every one of the Delta's approximately 500
small communities to help them with their water and sewer
problems. Currently, I am working for about two dozen small
Delta communities assisting them with their water and sewer
utilities.
I am honored to be accompanied here today by the mayor of
one of these small towns, Mayor Everette Hill from Como,
Mississippi. The town of Como has a population of approximately
1,200 persons. The mayor's challenges are compounded by the
fact that as a small-town mayor he has a full-time job as a
truck driver and has to handle much of the city's issues on his
free time. His community has little professional staff because
they simply can't afford it.
In Como, the wastewater system is failing because of its
age and inability to meet its current EPA treatment. The cost
to update Como's sewer system to be compliant is approximately
$2 million. The Como drinking water system needs an additional
$1 million in upgrades. The town was recently fined by the
Department of Environmental Quality for failure to comply with
their wastewater discharge permit. Currently, the Como
wastewater treatment facility is actually discharging only
partially treated wastewater due to failure of the current
treatment works.
Como is just like thousands of other small communities in
the Delta and the other States. They need a grant-rich
infrastructure program like the USDA's rural development
program, and they need access to someone they can trust for
technical advice, on-site assistance, and help with managing
the funding application process.
Mississippi has 1,234 regulated public water systems. Only
two serve populations over 50,000 persons, and only 59 serve
populations over 10,000 persons. More training needs to be
provided to small town mayors like Mayor Hill so that
multimillion-dollar upgrades that will most certainly tax the
ratepayers of these communities can be more readily understood
and communicated to these residents who will ultimately be
responsible for bearing the financial burden.
Recently, many of the small communities in the Delta have
received violations for a relatively new EPA regulation
referred to as the disinfections byproduct rule. These
byproductsare a result of disinfecting their water to make it
safe to drink. If these small communities limit or reduce the
disinfective levels of the water, they will most certainly
comply with this EPA regulation, but the water may no longer be
safe to drink. Once the disinfection byproduct rule is
violated, many small communities are forced to spend limited
resources to report these violations to the consumers.
In the town of Shaw, population 1,900 persons, the
community was under a boil water order for over 6 months
because of a broken chlorinator needed to disinfect the
drinking water. The local schools had to buy bottled water for
6 months. After they called the Mississippi Rural Water
Association's circuit rider, Tom Abernathy, they were able to
come up with a plan to pay for a new chlorinator, revise the
town's billing program--able to come up with a plan to pay for
a new chlorinator, revise the town's billing program to
accurately assess the water used by citizens, and receive the
payments, train the new mayor and town council, get the town's
credit stable and secure some emergency State Revolving Fund
financing.
In closing, whenever a small community is facing a
compliance issue, the complication of a new EPA rule, a line
break that they can't find that is causing people to lose water
service, an emergency from a storm or power loss, we all call
the circuit riders to tell us what it means and what to do.
They have developed a trust relationship with small communities
in their State that know how to fix things and are willing to
come to your town day, night, or weekend.
Thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. Mayor
Hill and I are available for questions. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Newman follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Shimkus. Thank you very much, and welcome, Mayor Hill.
It is good to have you with us also.
I would now like to turn to Mr. Bobby Selman on behalf of
the Mississippi Rural Water Association.
And you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Thank you.
STATEMENT OF BOBBY SELMAN
Mr. Selman. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the
subcommittee. It is an honor to appear before you today.
My name is Bobby Selman. I am a certified drinking water
and wastewater operator in the State of Mississippi with an
engineering background from Mississippi State. I have been
working in the water world for 25 years, starting in my
hometown in Lawrence County. I still work for the Lawrence
County Water Authority in addition to 12 other small
communities and rural water associations.
I want to thank my Congressman, Gregg Harper, for his
support and assistance to all the over 150,000 small public
water systems across the country for sponsoring the Grass Roots
Rural and Small Community Water Systems Assistance Act.
Representative Harper's bill directs the U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency to prioritize the type of technical
assistance that small communities find is most beneficial.
The rural water type of on-site technical assistance is
what all the small communities in Mississippi and the other
States rely on for help with compliance, operations,
emergencies, line breaks, loss of water, setting rates, and
training for operator certification. I am told that Congress
funds the EPA's internal management budget by hundreds of
millions of dollars every year. Small and rural communities
want Congress to know that the only benefit we get comes from
the small portion of the EPA funding that is directed to on-
site technical assistance provided by what we call circuit
riders.
What small communities do when they have a question or
water issue is call their local circuit rider that they know,
trust, and know can give them clear answers. These circuit
riders often come immediately on site to small communities and
teach them how to fix their problem. There is just no one else
out in the field at the local level providing this essential
help.
After Katrina, two of my small communities in Simpson
County were devastated. Each served approximately 2,500 people,
and they were without power and water. People in communities
can get by without power for a while, but not without water. I
called the Mississippi Rural Water Association circuit riders
and they found emergency generators for me and delivered them
to the communities at no charge.
Since the circuit riders know everybody in the State, they
were able to borrow some generators from northern communities
not impacted by the hurricane and had the generators delivered
to get the drinking water and sanitation restored immediately.
The circuit riders also had the technical know-how to rig the
generator's electrical systems, size the right voltage, and
even drive a backhoe if needed to clear the streets and dig up
ruptured lines. All of this type of assistance is essential to
restore a water supply in an emergency.
I called a circuit rider out to help me at a Double Ponds
Water Association, a community of about 1,000 homes to find a
line break causing a loss of water for many homes. The circuit
rider came with advanced radar equipment that can precisely
identify the location of the break, which on this day happened
to be out in the woods. By funding the circuit riders, Congress
is allowing all small and rural communities to share this
technical resource that no one community can afford on their
own. We think it is the best use of our Federal water
environmental dollars.
With the federalization of the operator certification under
the Safe Drinking Water Act of 1996, State rural water
associations have become the main source of training for
operators and the main source of continued education credits
which are needed every year to maintain this certification.
Many parts of rural America have seen industry move on,
leaving behind depressed economies. In my region the garment
industry moved south after NAFTA. When this happens, raising
rates becomes overly burdensome. In the town of New Hebron,
Mississippi, with just over 400 people, we are now being told
that we need to comply with a new EPA wastewater discharge
permit that will cost $2 to $3 million.
I will close with some comments on the Federal water
infrastructure programs, namely the EPA State Revolving Funds
and the USDA Rural Development Grant and Loan Program. We are
very appreciative for Congressional funding of these
initiatives, and realize the funding constraints in Congress
and the Nation. Notwithstanding the curtailment Federal
funding, the regulatory burden continues to increase and become
more complex.
We urge you to emphasize grants in these funding programs.
Low interest loans often don't help the communities facing the
most severe hardship from Federal compliance, leaving the loan
funds to be used for compliance with greater ability to afford
financing. We are very grateful for the funding assistance. It
has allowed many rural and small communities to have access of
drinking water and sanitation that would otherwise not have
been able to afford without the Federal assistance, and we want
to be partners in the effort to make the initiative as
efficient and successful as possible.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I am eager to answer
any questions at the appropriate time.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Selman follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Shimkus. Thank you very much.
Our last but not least panelist is Mr. Robert Stewart, who
is the Executive Director of the Rural Community Assistance
Partnership.
Welcome, sir, and you are recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF ROBERT STEWART
Mr. Stewart. Thank you, Chairman Shimkus, Ranking Member
Tonko, and members of the committee.
I think the previous witnesses and you all have done a
excellent job of sort of framing the issue. As someone that has
worked 20 years with hundreds of communities in Texas, both for
the Rural Community Assistance Partnership and the Rural Water
Association, and someone who has directed a national program
for 10 years, I am here to tell you that the needs of small
communities are many, the resources are limited, but I tell
you, the dedication and the determination of small communities
to provide their citizens with the best possible water is
strong and undiminished.
I want to--I am sure everyone knows a little bit about the
Rural Community Assistant Partnership. It is in my testimony,
and I won't repeat things that are in my testimony. I just
wanted to sort of make a few points that have been touched on
but maybe I could amplify a little bit.
One is the access to capital. I think there is a real issue
in small communities in accessing the financial resources that
they need in order to build the infrastructure, extend lines to
new customers. I believe Mr. Gomez talked a little bit about
access to the municipal bond market. For small communities,
this is just not an option at all. We find that there is
53,000-some-odd community water systems in the country. Perhaps
4 percent of them have the ability to access the municipal bond
market.
So what they are left with is the two primary Federal
financing programs, being the Drinking Water SRF and USDA Rural
Developments Water and Environmental Programs, and so, you
know, it is really critical that those programs continue to be
supported in a robust manner. We work a lot with rural
development and their water environment program. They are the
primary lender in rural communities. They have some 18,000 plus
loans out with small water systems, and as you probably know,
there is virtually no default on these loans. We take these
matters very seriously in repaying the loans that are made to
small communities.
One of the things that RD has going for them is they have
field staff in every State. They have the ability to work
directly with the communities. The communities know their local
folks in the district and State offices, and it is just a more
cooperative and easier way to get funding through rural
development.
Rural Development also funds both the Rural Water
Association and RCAP to do technical assistance and training. A
lot of the staff that work for me around the country work
through the application processes and all the requirements that
are needed in order to get a loan from Rural Development.
EPA State Revolving Funds are also a very important part of
the financing scheme for small communities. I think all of you
know that as a result of the 1996 amendments to the Safe
Drinking Water Act the State revolving program was formed, and
it was mainly to deal with compliance issues, and if you look
at who is out of compliance or where the most health-based
compliance issues are, 96 percent of those are from small
communities. So you would think that, you know, most of the
money or a big portion of the money would go to the
communities, whether they are urban, rural, small or large that
have the compliance issues, but as you can look at EPA's own
numbers, perhaps 25 percent of the funding actually goes to the
small communities in this country.
You know, we would think that a larger amount of money from
the SRF program should be dedicated to economically
disadvantaged and small rural communities.
EPA does have a--has a program as a result of the 1996
amendments that funds the technical assistance kind of a
program that both Rural Water and RCAP have advantage of. It is
not funded at the authorized level that was authorized 20 some
years ago, and so we would hope that you would consider some
additional resources for that particular program.
And I know one of the things you are looking at is what
else can be done? You know, what else can we do to work with
small communities. There are a lot of other options. One of
which both Rural Water and RCAP work on is the sharing of
services. How can small communities get together, share an
operator, share a manager, share purchasing. How can we look at
possibilities that actually--you know, combining systems if
they are close. It is very difficult, and one of the problems
the funding agencies have is that it easier for them to make a
$10 million loan than 10 $1 million loans. So that sort of
hurts small communities even more. With reduced staffing levels
in both EPA and RD, there is an emphasis more for the larger
loans, which I think adversely affects small communities even
more.
So I think the regionalization approaches where appropriate
are important, but the only way those are going to happen is
that if you have people like the circuit riders and the
technical assistance providers that work for RCAP that are out
working with those communities on a day-in/day-out basis to
sort of work through those kind of issues.
One of the other things real quickly because my time is
running out is you talk about tools. I would like to give
credit to EPA for developing the variety of tools and for
working with Rural Development on tools. Assess management
tools, tools to look at sustainability for communities. Again,
tools are important to be developed for use by small
communities, but it takes someone in the field like a Rural
Water or an RCAP person to actually bring those tools out to
these communities, and if it--I would also--if maybe this could
be handled in the questions, I know you are interested in WIFIA
and some of the other alternative financing programs. I would
be glad to talk about that also.
My time is up, though, so I really appreciate the
opportunity to be here with you today.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Stewart follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Shimkus. Thank you very much.
And I will recognize myself 5 minutes for the starting of
the questioning.
And just before I start, I am in my 19th year. My first
district was 19 counties. My second Congressional district was
30 counties, and now I represent 33 counties out of 102.
So we have really been able to access and use the USDA
rural development and rural water, and it has really helped and
kind of forced a push to regionalism and kind of closing the
gaps of water or addressing the challenges that small
communities have because they just--in rural America sometimes
these communities are shrinking. I mean, they are not growing.
They are shrinking. So their base to keep up, especially with
new capital expenses. So that is--in my area it has been a
very, very successful program, and I just throw that out
because I have great people work on that, and they have done
great work.
I would like to go to Mr. Gomez first, and you have heard
some of our witnesses claiming that the drinking water State
Revolving Funds are not being made available to provide safe
drinking water to the needs of our most needy communities.
Is there a way to measure across the country whether the
drinking water State Revolving Fund is meeting its
Congressionally intended purpose or authorized purpose?
Mr. Gomez. So that is a really good question. What we are
aware of is that the drinking water SRFs are required to
provide 15 percent of the funds to the small communities. Now,
the extent to which States are doing exactly what you are
asking, we don't know yet. I mean, that would be a good
question possibly for GAO to look at.
There are estimates from EPA, for example, that about 38
percent of the drinking water SRFs have gone to small
communities as of 2008. So that is the estimate that is out
there, but to the extent that it is meeting small communities'
needs, we don't know that.
Mr. Shimkus. Great. Well, thank you.
Are there any reports that show how fast this drinking
water funding is spent, by whom, and where it goes, including
distribution to the neediest communities?
Mr. Gomez. So one of the things that we are doing at the
moment is we do have ongoing work looking at the financial
sustainability of the drinking water SRF, and so there we are
looking at different ways in which States are managing these
SRFs, and we are hoping to identify best practices that States
are using. That report should be coming out this spring.
Mr. Shimkus. Great. Thank you.
Mr. Stewart, in your testimony you state that EPA State
Revolving Fund needs to be, and I am quoting, ``better managed
to meet small system needs.''
Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
Mr. Stewart. Yes. What I would say, when you look at the
numbers, EPA has a difference in between the number of loans
they are making and the amount of the loans they are making,
you know, and so the amount of the loans is not sort of the
same as the number, and there is not as much actual money that
is going into there.
Now, the whole purpose of the SRF was to give the States
the latitude to run it how they see fit, and I think most of
the members of this committee would sort of agree with that
because the conditions are different from State to State, but I
would think there is some minimum requirements if we are
looking at the high noncompliance rates of utilities, the
problems with affordability, the problems with small customer
bases that, you know, just some great emphasis needs to be paid
to providing more funding for these disadvantaged and smaller
communities.
And, you know, some States, they are really good. My home
State of Texas has a lot of money now that they are putting
into water problems as a result of droughts. California has
done the same thing. So each State runs a different--a lot of
States put extra money in. Some States don't, you know, but I
think it is good, and I think GAO has done a terrific job of
looking at some of these issues, and I would encourage them to
continue to do so.
Mr. Shimkus. Thank you.
My last question for Mayor Keegan, Mr. Newman, and Mr.
Selman, can you just give us briefly your success on the State
Revolving Fund versus the RUS, or do you access that? And why
don't we go with Mr. Keegan first and----
Mr. Keegan. Sure. We haven't had very much success. We have
had some limitations due to the average income of our
community. We have been told it has been too high and our
average bill doesn't meet the minimum to qualify for the
funding. We have hired two--we have paid two separate
consulting firms to search out funds for us, and both reported
the same thing.
Mr. Shimkus. Thank you.
Mr. Newman?
Mr. Newman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In my experience, one of the issues with the SRF as
compared to the rural development has been the paperwork is
considered to be cumbersome, and the added administrative cost
in applying often nullifies the low interest which in turn
makes the SRF an option of last resort, which I don't believe
was the intended purpose.
Mr. Shimkus. Mr. Selman?
Mr. Selman. Yes. Some of my systems I help we have used
SRF. We are drilling a well right now at one of the systems
because it depends on what area you are in the State, but we
were having trouble through Rural Development getting on a
timely process of getting the money to drill this well and it
was needed.
The Town of Monticello we got a State Revolving Fund grant
for a sewer project right now that we just completed. So in our
district, in our part of the State, you know, we have used it
and it has helped, but the USDA seems to be more with the
grants. Some communities can't afford that much of a loan, and
the grant helps them that much more over the USDA money.
Mr. Shimkus. My time is expired, and I know Mr. Stewart
wanted to answer, but I need to go to Mr. Tonko who is
recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Tonko. Thank you again, Chair Shimkus, for calling this
hearing and for inviting the witness from 20th District of New
York. Mayor Keegan, I appreciate you making the trip here
today.
Drinking water systems in the district of that I represent,
and I think every district across the country, are facing
significant challenges as they work to ensure that everyone,
including people in small and rural communities, have access to
safe water. That is why I introduced the Aqua Act last Congress
to improve all of the tools EPA currently has to assist these
systems.
I appreciate the work that my colleague Mr. Harper from
Mississippi has done on these issues, and I look forward to
working with him to get at least some of these changes into
law. It seems that every week in my district there is another
water main break. Treated water and the money we have invested
is being wasted. So it is dollars and water flowing out of
those pipes.
Mayor Keegan, can you describe some of the issues you have
had in your town with water main breaks and the obstacles you
face in preventing these ruptures?
Mr. Keegan. Well, we don't really--with the recent frost
that--when we have a water main break it doesn't always just
pop up through the pavement because the ground is so frozen. So
we don't often know where the break is, and we don't have the
tools or equipment to locate the break. So we have to either
call a consulting firm, and that could be $1,500 a day to come
with special tools, or we call the New York Rural Water
Association. If they are available they will come. So that is--
it is very difficult. We don't always know where the breaks are
located.
Mr. Tonko. Thank you.
And, you know, this is such a serious issue and one that
will require more significant infrastructure financing,
including that investment in technology, not just technical
assistance.
Mr. Gomez, GAO has studied the range of Government programs
that provide assistance to rural and small water systems as
well as the need the systems face.
What is the funding gap for water infrastructure? I know
earlier you gave a combined total, I believe, for water and--
drinking water and sewer. What is the funding for the drinking
water infrastructure and how much money does it entail?
Mr. Gomez. So EPA has estimated the funding gap, and they
have estimated it to be $662 billion. That is an estimate from
2002, and that estimate is a based on the next 20 years.
Mr. Tonko. Thank you. And, obviously, the water systems
represented on this panel I would think agree that more
resources are required.
So Mayor Keegan, do you support legislation to reauthorize
the SRF and increase the funding available? You know, you
mentioned in your testimony the need for grants, not just
loans, and I think many of you mentioned that. Is it fair to
say that your village has reached the limit of its ability to
borrow more for the needed funds?
Mr. Keegan. Oh, absolutely. We really just can't even
entertain a municipal bond at this time, and right now we are
only spending our budget items on repairs. We don't have enough
money in our budget for replacement of old infrastructure. So
we are looking for funding, but it has just been a struggle to
find any that----
Mr. Tonko. And I assume the SRF is also a favorable thing
for you?
Mr. Keegan. Yes. Absolutely. We encourage the refunding of
that.
Mr. Tonko. And do you also support efforts to expand
technical assistance initiatives like the Aqua Act?
Mr. Keegan. Absolutely. Yes. We call on lots of different--
any technical assistance that can be provided to us is really
of value.
Mr. Tonko. And to the other gentlemen on the panel, any
responses in terms of technical assistance and the relevant
role it might play?
Mr. Newman. In my experience, technical assistance is
absolutely essential in complying with the various rules and
regulations of the EPA, particularly because many of these
rules are often complex and require innovative approaches. So
the training and technical assistance that is provided, for
example, by our State rural water associations is indeed an
essential component of compliance.
Mr. Tonko. And the other gentlemen in terms of technical
assistance funding and the SRF?
Mr. Selman. Very essential. We have--you know, we get
mayors and water board managers and whatever and they need all
the training they can get. You know, the secretaries, the rural
water puts on a training for them. They certify them. Every bit
of assistance we can get is very well needed.
Mr. Tonko. And Mr. Stewart?
Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. The one point I would like to make,
technical assistance is important also because we need to
ensure the investment that the Federal Government is making
through EPA and Rural Development, and that technical
assistance allows people to go out and work with these
communities and make sure that those loans are going to be
repaid, and also to implement like asset management programs so
that the infrastructure and the materials that the utility has
is going to be maintained in top operating condition and so we
don't have to go back repeatedly necessarily to replace things
that could have been maintained to start with.
Mr. Tonko. Right. Well, the Aqua Act that I introduced
would cover some of these costs.
So I appreciate your comments, and with that I yield back.
Mr. Shimkus. Gentleman yields back his time.
The Chair now recognizes the vice chair of the
subcommittee, Mr. Harper, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Harper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I can think of few
topics more important across the country in every Congressional
district than the one we are on today, and so thanks to each of
our guests who are giving testimony today, and also welcome,
Mayor Hill, and also, you know, just to have each of you here
is something that we greatly appreciate, and my dear friend
Kirby Mayfield who is here who is CEO of the Mississippi Rural
Water Association who has been a great contact and person
sharing information with us. So we are thankful for that.
If I could, Mr. Newman, ask you, in your testimony you
talked about the trust relationship that small communities have
with circuit riders. As we continue discussing this issue of
how EPA could and should help our small communities comply with
Federal regulations, among other things, would you please take
a minute and elaborate on the importance of that trust
relationship that our water systems have with our circuit
riders?
Mr. Newman. Yes, sir. The relationships that have been
established over the years between the rural water associations
and the utility managers, the certified water operators,
mayors, and small town council has been well established over
many years. Prime example, just last evening a small community
in Mississippi, their water well was down due to snow and it
lost power for a significant period of time, and the mayor--of
course, customers were calling. It was developing into quite a
situation.
The mayor contacted me, and I immediately contacted the
Mississippi Rural Water Association, and they in turn
immediately began locating a generator for that town, and,
thankfully, were able to get that generator delivered to
resolve that situation.
So, in essence, the experience is if you have got a problem
and you don't know what to do, then you call the Mississippi
Rural Water Association, and they are there every time to
provide the needed assistance.
Mr. Harper. And I am also glad you explained to some of our
folks, some of our members, that we actually have snow in
Mississippi. So that was a surprise to, I think, some.
Mr. Newman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Harper. And Mr. Selman, thank you so much for your kind
words and your testimony, and I look forward to visiting with
the Double Ponds Water Association folks next month in DC.
Mr. Selman. Thank you.
Mr. Harper. You talked about Hurricane Katrina which
impacted our State and Louisiana greatly. It was the greatest
most costly natural disaster ever in our State's history, and
you mentioned two water systems in Simpson County, in my
district, and the assistance they received after Katrina.
Would you talk for a minute about some of the tools circuit
riders have at their disposal that small water systems often
don't have or have other access to. I think you mentioned radar
equipment. How important are these tools to the survival of our
smaller water systems?
Mr. Selman. Yes. Very important.
Before Katrina, we hadn't had a natural disaster in south
Mississippi like that since Camille. I reckon 1969, but we were
without power, and we are about 120 miles from the coast, and
we were without power about 20 days, 19, 20 days, and at that
time some of the water systems had started putting in
generators, very few, but some had, and, you know, we--like I
said in the testimony, you can make it without power for a
while, rig up your generator to get the TV on or something, but
without water, you can't make it, and we immediately called our
circuit riders. They found generators in Arkansas, north
Mississippi, wherever they could get them, brought them to us,
helped us get them hooked up, and we got water flowing again.
Same way with the wastewater. We had some lift stations that
you have to pump wastewater that we hooked into those
wastewater stations and got water to the lagoon or the
treatment plant.
The ground-penetrating radar you mention, they keep one of
those. Anytime we need to locate a line--a lot of these old
lines were put in are growing up in trees now. You can't--you
don't know exactly where the line is. They come out there with
this machine and locate that line for us and help us tap it,
help us do whatever we need, and that machine is about $35,000,
and, you know, most of these little systems don't have the
money for that. So what we do, we call Rural Water and they
help us in whatever needs we need.
Mr. Harper. That is great. Well, thanks to each of you and
great to have all of you here, and thank you for that, and also
want to specifically thank Ranking Member Tonko for his
assistance as we try to work through these important issues.
Thank you.
Mr. Shimkus. Gentleman yields back his time.
Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman for--both you and
Ranking Member Tonko for holding the hearing on the drinking
water needs of smaller communities.
I represent a very urban district in unincorporated and
incorporated Houston, Texas, and we have some of the same
problems in our suburban areas that will not be annexed by our
cities because the property tax could never cover the cost, and
yet they are literally south of Intercontinental Airport in
Houston and areas in that district, and over the years in
Texas, we have received money from the State Revolving Fund. In
fact, partnered with using it in some of these communities to
provide fresh water but also partnering with the county
because--for sewer service.
But it bothered me that last year Texas received the lowest
amount of money from the State Revolving Fund of $53 million,
and that goes back to 1997, and that is not anywhere nearly
accounting for inflation. The fact is deeply troubling because
of the significance in growing drinking water infrastructure
needs of Texas in general, and, like I said, a very urban
district. If it is in the city, they will get--they will do it,
but this area is not attractive to be annexed, and it is very
poor communities, and that is where we need the help. Their
septic tanks fill, and, again, a very urban area and very
shallow water wells. That is why this hearingis important.
My first question is, Mr. Newman, Mr. Selman, and Mr.
Stewart, do you believe that the Congress should reauthorize
the drinking water State Revolving Fund this year?
Mr. Stewart. I will be glad to start off. Yes. I think----
Mr. Green. I mean, it seems like an easy one----
Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. Exactly. It is one of the most
important funding mechanisms within this country to fund water
systems.
Mr. Green. For the other three gentlemen, do all of you all
agree we ought to reauthorize it?
Mr. Selman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Newman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Green. OK. Do you belive Congress should increase the
funding provided to States and local communities through the
drinking--through drinking water for State Revolving Fund?
Raise the authorization for it?
Now, I will explain to folks, authorization is we have
that, but, you know, you can raise the authorization as high as
you want, you still have to go back every year and beg the
Appropriations Committee for the money.
Mr. Shimkus. Yes. If I may interrupt--he is saying, do you
think that the authorization amount should be raised across the
country? That is the----
Mr. Green. If we get asked for appropriations----
Mr. Shimkus. If we reauthorize----
Mr. Green. Do you think there are water needs around the
country, not only in your States, but others?
Mr. Selman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stewart. Well, my opinion is, this is an investment.
This is to capitalize the revolving funds that the States have.
So this is not money that is just going away in grants. This is
to capitalize money that can be revolved again and again for
use of communities large and small.
Mr. Green. But should the fund be raised so we can cover
more communities?
Mr. Keegan. Absolutely.
Mr. Green. Mr. Newman?
Mr. Newman. Absolutely. Yes.
I would also like to add that in addition to raising the
funding to cover more communities, take a look at the process
and make sure that the money is being utilized by the
communities that it was intended to be beneficial for.
Mr. Green. You think there is something in the authorizing
law that we need to change that would make that happen?
Mr. Newman. I am not so sure about the process of the
authorization of the law as I am concerned about just the
implementation of the funds and those things that discourage
the smaller communities, you know, in Mississippi that I am
familiar with from pursuing those funds because these funds
were intended to benefit these small communities, and there is
a gap, and I think that we all need to just figure out how to
bridge that gap.
Mr. Green. You know, the biggest problem we have in my area
is that these are very poor communities and to have a revolving
fund and have it paid back, they could hardly afford the
monthly water bill and sewer bill to be able to pay it back. So
there is--that is the issue, again, in my area, and I assume it
is in north Mississippi just like it is in other parts of rural
Texas.
Mr. Stewart, you indicated you worked two decades on
drinking water issues, and we have had--I used--the last few
years our rain stopped at the Louisiana border, because from
Beaumont, Texas all the way out west it has been drought. Not
as much in the last year, though. We have had good rain in the
Houston area, in southeast Texas, and all the way to Rio Grande
Valley, but we still have problems out past San Antonio because
that is still in a drought area.
How would you describe our current state of drinking water
infrastructure in Texas?
Mr. Stewart. I would say for the most part it is pretty
strong, but I think there are certain disadvantaged communities
like you are talking about that I really think need some
additional resources, and there is some hard-hit drought areas
in north central Texas of my area of central Texas that I think
just need some support, and fortunately we have--and Texas has
benefitted because we have river authorities, we have a
progressive water development board. We have people that are
looking at this issue from a lot of different angles.
Mr. Green. Well, and Texas did provide recently the voters,
voted for a constitutional amendment to provide for it because
of the problems we have.
In 2011 Harris County, as much of our State was in the
grips of the drought, during the height of the drought, due to
aging water lines, hardening soil, hundreds of water line
breakage daily, resulting in billions of gallons of lost
treated water, Mr. Stewart, do you have any sense of the
economic impact of the 2011 drought had on our State?
Mr. Stewart. That is something the GAO might be better to
answer, but I know it has been severe economic impact. Because
if you don't have the water sources, you are not going to be
able to support the businesses, the growth that is occurring
all over Texas. Water is just the foundation of all the economy
in this country.
Mr. Green. I know I am over time.
Thank you. I am sorry.
Mr. Shimkus. Way over time.
Mr. Green. We talk a little slower.
Mr. Shimkus. I thank my colleague.
Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr.
Murphy, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Murphy. Thank you all. I will talk a little fast. See
what I can get in.
This is for Mr. Selman or Mr. Newman, and thank you all for
being here. Very informative panel.
Engineers who serve in some of these rural water systems in
my district, for example, in Greene County in my southwestern
Pennsylvania, very rural area, but they tell me that States
oftentimes impose their own drinking water requirements which
are far more strict than the EPA standards set forth in the
Drinking Water Act.
Could you please provide some examples for me where some of
these State-imposed requirements that you have seen in your
community or communities go beyond or differ from the EPA
standards?
Mr. Newman. In Mississippi, and Mr. Selman can elaborate on
this or correct me if I am wrong, but I believe in Mississippi
that our State regulations are exactly the same as the Federal
guidelines, being no more or no less stringent than the
language in the Federal act.
Mr. Murphy. Same for you, Mr. Selman?
Mr. Selman. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Murphy. And does anybody else see differences in their
communities?
Mr. Selman. No. That's correct. I don't think our
regulations could be any more stringent than what the Federal
act has written. That is the way the State of Mississippi does.
Mr. Murphy. Mr. Stewart?
Mr. Stewart. I guess, sir, I might note that some States--
EPA regulates water quality. They don't regulate capacity
requirements, and some States require that you have a certain
well production, a surface water treatment plant, storage and
pumping capacities. In a lot of cases, those adversely affect
small communities because they are not really. You know, they
are not engineerily--they are not on an engineering basis
justified on the basis of how much water is being used.
Mr. Murphy. So, for example, in my Greene County area where
they are dealing with things like small dam or water line
extensions, not necessarily water quality, but that has to do
with water delivery. Is that what you are saying is that----
Mr. Stewart. Exactly. The capacity requirements, whether--
again, pumping or storage, you know, elevated ground storage
tanks, sometimes those capacity requirements are a little bit
higher than I think would--to what is needed to protect public
health.
Mr. Murphy. Well, what this gets into--well, let me come
back to that.
So how much could the heightened standards cost rural
drinking water systems, though, if we make some changes in
here? Will it affect--I mean, I heard some of you alluding to
cost issues here. Mr. Keegan, you talked about consulting an
engineer and what those costs are. What does this vary for
communities, rural communities? Anybody have any estimates here
of that cost that you would bear?
Mr. Keegan. Probably save us on all the consulting fees
that we spend looking for funding.
Mr. Murphy. Anybody else have any thought about this?
Mr. Stewart. Well, I would just say it depends on the
requirement. You know, if you are having to treat for arsenic,
then you are probably talking a doubling or tripling of the
water bill for a small community.
So it just depends on what kind of treatment that--what
kind of constituent that EPA is requiring the small community
to treat for.
Mr. Murphy. So the question I have, and I know you talked
about some of these things, but how do rural systems get the
funds they need to deal with this compliance issue? Any of you
have any thoughts on this of what we do? I mean, I heard one
comment, could the Federal Government send more money, and
certainly where the Federal Government increases or changes
standards, I sometimes think it is unfair to say: You now must
do all these things, and you must bear the cost, but it comes
down to a question, though, of what else--I mean, how are these
costs borne oftentimes when you may have someone who lives a
mile from the next person or a half mile from the next person
and there is huge costs associated with this.
Anybody have any comments on how that should be set up?
Mr. Keegan. We just raise our rates. We just had the--the
DEC required our local school district to be on municipal
water, and they passed a bond. So they passed that price on to
the taxpayers, you know, to hook into the system at quite
considerable expense, and----
Mr. Murphy. What kind of percentage increase would you say
that was?
Mr. Keegan. I am not sure.
Mr. Murphy. Anybody else have any other thoughts other than
put it on the ratepayers?
Mr. Selman. Raising rates is the only way that small
communities like I work for, that is the only--only option they
have, and, you know, in the 10 to 20 percent range sometime.
Mr. Murphy. And we have these grant systems. I know that
some of my communities are asking for some changes in the way
that the loans are established, rates, et cetera. Any comments
on those?
Mr. Keegan. The paperwork is quite cumbersome, and, you
know, usually we have to hire a consulting firm to help us
apply for the loan.
Mr. Murphy. Can you elaborate on that cumbersomeness, what
kind of hours and time that adds to your cost?
Mr. Keegan. We just aren't--we just don't have the staff
who can understand, you know, what is required in the
paperwork. We give them the, you know, the data, how much water
we use every day and that kind of thing.
Mr. Murphy. So is it safe to say that simplifying paperwork
and if you are going to be giving--required to have lots of
paperwork to also provide some assistance in filling that out
of some sort?
Mr. Keegan. Absolutely. Yes.
Mr. Murphy. Thank you so much.
Mr. Shimkus. For the second time, I am going to try to be
quicker on the gavel so everyone gets a chance for----
Mr. Latta is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Latta. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to our panel,
thank you very much for being here.
This kind of strikes home to me because as a county
commissioner in Wood County--and from Wood County in Ohio for 6
years and handled a lot of water and sewer issues, and also we
created a regional water and sewer district when I was the
commissioner to put things together because my home county was
over 600 square miles. We had all or part of five cities, 21
villages, 19 townships and a lot of unincorporated area.
And it is important to--and hearing all of you brings back
memories of over 20 years ago that I used to sit in a lot of
meetings and hear people talk about because they are really
very important issues. In Ohio alone, I think we have got about
$21 billion right now that we are looking at that we need in
infrastructure improvements from water to wastewater and storm
water, and so what you are saying here today is very, very
important, and really appreciate you being here because I can
commiserate with what you have all said, and I have also been
working on legislation for at least one session to try to help
on the wastewater side to help rural communities.
But if I could, because I take it you all had very good
testimony today, and again--and appreciate you being here, and
if I could start with Mr. Gomez, you know, you--I think it is
important because one of the things that we have been hearing
out here is there is a shortage of dollars out there that we
have, especially--and when you are talking about our rural
areas.
Could you discuss the relationship between the EPA and USDA
programs and whether they are--you know, there are overlaps out
there and what about the efficiencies or synergies that could
occur if we were really looking at these programs and make sure
that we didn't have duplication out there or anything like
that.
Mr. Gomez. Sure. Thank you.
So we have looked at those two programs in particular, and
also at the other agencies that have programs that help our
rural communities.
With respect to the USDA rural utility service and the EPA
drinking water SRF, they are--they do have some similar
programs. We did not find any areas where they were duplicating
effort, meaning that they were funding the same project for the
same purpose. Projects can get funding from both programs, but
they are usually focusing on different areas.
Now, the other thing that we have reported on is the
importance for those two agencies to work together to
collaborate, but also to encourage the State SRF programs to
work closely with the USDA rural utility service so that they
can get efficiencies.
You know, one of the recommendations we made was that they
needed to come up with a uniform preliminary engineering report
so that communities aren't filing multiple engineering reports,
which cost money, and so those are things that we are tracking.
We were happy to hear that they have come up with the uniform
preliminary engineering report and that some States have
already adopted it.
So we think those are places where if by working together
they can better target the monies.
Mr. Latta. Thank you.
This is for Mr. Stewart and Mr. Newman because you both
kind of touched on it. In your testimony you had mentioned, Mr.
Stewart, about bringing the tools back to the community and the
cost of that technical assistance because I know what that
would cost, and, you know, what do you find? Are the tools
there, are they readily available? Because I know we heard from
some other of the Members asking the panel about the cost, but,
you know, do you find that you have that assistance out there
to be able to get that as soon as you can get it?
Mr. Stewart. Both RCAP and Rural Water have a variety of
tools that we bring to bear with small communities. So they are
readily available, I think, and EPA and RD are working on
different tools. I think I have touched on them in my
testimony. I think it is the access to those tools that--that
is needed. We need the technical assistance to bring those
tools, you know, whether it is an asset management program,
whether it is a financial management program, whether it is an
O&M manuals. Whatever those tools might be, the real expense is
not just creating the tools, it is bringing it out to the small
communities that can't access them unless you have a technical
assistance provider out there working with them.
Mr. Latta. Thank you.
Mr. Newman, would you like to touch on that about that
assistance out there in the communities?
Mr. Newman. Well, to reiterate the comments that I have
made, as well as Mr. Stewart, from the perspective of the water
system manager, then the resources, the assistance is
invaluable because there are very varied issues that occur
across a water system or a wastewater system that may be beyond
the scope of that particular utility and beyond the financial
capabilities. So utilizing the services of the Rural Water
Association is absolutely essential.
Mr. Latta. OK. Thank you.
Mr. Shimkus. The gentleman's time is expired.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from West Virginia.
Mr. McKinley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Going to go in several directions with this, but I have
got--we have all heard a lot of horror stories, and I have got
mine in my district. I have got a little town in West Virginia.
I think we have got a slide, perhaps, of a water line that they
are--they have been facing--could we get that up? There it is.
It shows how just colluded the line is, that they can't--
they have applied--however, knowing this, they have applied 10
times to try to get money, and they have been rejected 10 times
since 2002. It just isn't--people--we just don't have the money
in the SRF, and what I was particularly pleased about was the
President this year actually maintained the--for the most part,
the funding from the previous year as compared to what we have
seen in the past where the year before he made a 40 percent
reduction in the SRF because they said the priority was climate
change, and we have heard that mentioned from the other side of
the aisle. They thought climate change was a higher priority
than funding our water problems in rural America.
I have got--I am curious. So I hope we--I hope someone has
seen the light with that, but the--I am confused a little bit
about the regulatory burden because it--particularly a lot of
you have been talking--this hearing is about rural America, not
what has been offered is we got to be concerned about the big
cities.
I am worried at this hearing that we stay focused on rural
America because here is just a listing of some of the rules--I
don't know whether these people--I have designed a lot of sewer
and water lines.
So as an engineer I am quite familiar with this, but we
have got things that a small city has to take care of is the
arsenic rule, the chemical rule, lead and copper rules, the
uranium rule, the Federal backwash rule, the groundwater rule,
the enhanced surface water rule, the cert, both I and II, the
disinfect byproduct rule, 1 and 2, the surface water rule,
total coal--I could go on and on.
These are rules that small cities have to deal with just as
well as a larger community of 100,000 or 200,000. So my--and I
have got three other communities that they are just trying to
find money for operations, let alone install--this one
community is--they are working on--like, one of you said up
there, a 19th century system. They are trying to replace it
with that water line right there.
How can we get money for operations? Because we have got
one community in West Virginia--they are dumping raw sewage
into the Potomac River because they don't have money to be able
to do their maintenance work that they have to do. We have got
others that--I got another community, they are getting their
water through water buffaloes pouring into a cistern so that
they have some water with that----
This is 2015 in America, but yet we have an administration
that until this year every year for the last 3 years has been
reducing money to the SRF. What are we failing--how are we
failing our country when we don't put enough money into the
SRF? How do--because that is what I have heard many of you say,
we need to put more money into that program. What do we have to
do? How much more money?
Can any of you suggest where we have to go with that? And I
would also add, should we be prioritizing the SRF money for
rural communities so that we are weighting them a little more
heavily than the big cities? Mr. Stewart, does----
Mr. Stewart. Well, sir, you are preaching to the choir
here. I mean, I think all of us would agree that a
significantly greater percentage of the SRF money should go to
small communities, and they should be able to access it easier.
One think I would like to say real quickly is you can't
even have a chance of getting the SRF money unless you get on
the Intended Use Plan, and for a small community, how do you
get on the Intended Use Plan? I mean, you know, the--all of us
can tell you that is difficult to do.
I mean, do you have the technical assistance? Do you have
an engineer you are working with? Somebody that is going to
submit the paperwork so you even have a chance to get on the
money? And that is a problem. That is one thing I said in my
testimony. We need some assistance just so these small
communities could get on the Intended Use Plan, which is what
they do to prioritize money into the SRF.
Mr. McKinley. How can we weight--what are some--what would
be some factors or--that we might be able to weight so that a
small community putting in will be given better consideration
than a larger communities? Any of your thoughts? Mr. Gomez?
Mr. Gomez. Well, generally, what GAO always recommends is
that you target Federal funds to those communities most in
need, and so if these are in communities, that is where the--
that is one of the areas that we could target.
Mr. McKinley. OK. Well, I guess we are running out of time,
but, again, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for bringing this
up.
I hope we continue to--this is a--for small cities. The big
cities have their own issues, but they have the resources and
the critical mass to be able to take care of--our small towns
of 400, 500 people, we are struggling. We better find it.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Shimkus. I thank my colleague.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Ohio, Mr.
Johnson, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I represent Appalachian, Ohio, and I don't have to tell you
folks probably how rural that is. I hear the horror stories,
many of which you have just heard. I could cite similar cases
that my colleague from West Virginia, Mr. McKinley did.
Mr. Selman, long before I was elected to Congress, I served
26 years in the Air Force, and I was stationed in Columbus,
Mississippi, and you know how rural that area is. So I have
seen this for a long time.
Mr. Gomez, does the GAO track and can you tell us in
regards to all urban and rural systems how many municipalities
have their systems charge the true cost of providing water to
their customers? In other words, how many of them are operating
in the red?
Mr. Gomez. That is a really good question, and it is always
one area that is debatable, right, whether people are actually
paying the true price of what the water costs. I don't believe
that we have done work on that. But if we have, I would have to
get back to you on that.
Mr. Johnson. Yes. Would you take a look at that, please. I
think the American people would be interested to know how these
small rural communities are struggling and many of them are
operating in the red, as it stands right now, because their
residents can't even afford the cost of providing the water.
Mr. Gomez. What I can also say is that EPA has estimated
that, for these rural communities, if they have to undertake
these water and wastewater infrastructure projects, their rates
will likely be four times what the urban rate payer would be
paying.
Mr. Johnson. Oh, absolutely.
Mr. Gomez. So that is not affordable.
Mr. Johnson. Yes. And I have got rural areas that are under
that exact pressure. They don't have the money. Because of the
economy, they don't have the money to comply with the EPA's
clean water mandates and system mandates today. And on top of
that, they are being leveled with these fines that they also
can't pay. So, I mean, it is like trying to get blood out of a
turnip. And I know you guys know what a turnip is. So it is
tough. It is tough.
Let me ask you a question, Mr. Newman. Your testimony
mentions that the town of Como, Mississippi has 2 million in
wastewater needs and 1 million in drinking water upgrades that
it needs to undertake. What is the annual operating budget of
Como?
Mr. Newman. The annual operating budget in the town of Como
is approximately 150,000 annually.
Mr. Johnson. OK. All right. And what is the average income
of Como residents?
Mr. Newman. Per capita, about 21,000.
Mr. Johnson. OK. Is raising local water rates a realistic
possibility?
Mr. Newman. It is a realistic possibility from a standpoint
of operation and maintenance, but not from the standpoint of
addressing----
Mr. Johnson. Making these upgrades?
Mr. Newman. That is correct, yes.
Mr. Johnson. Yes. OK.
And even if you raise the rates operationally and
maintenance-wise, would it be enough to cover the cost of
providing the service?
Mr. Newman. No.
Mr. Johnson. OK. What is their access to or are there
limits on other funding sources like commercial lending? Now,
that is a double-edged question because the question itself
kind of says, ``Well, why don't you go in debt----''
Mr. Newman. Sure.
Mr. Johnson [continuing]. ``To provide water?'' And that is
certainly not a principle that I subscribe to, but are you
considering other sources?
Mr. Newman. By and large the primary source is rural
development primarily because of the grant component. Other
options, as we have discussed, include State Revolving Fund,
even commercial lending.
However, as is the case with SRF, commercial lending is 100
percent loan and the interest rates on the commercial loan is
typically going to be higher than the SRF.
But at either case, because of the low economies of scale,
a community like Como can't afford to borrow the money
necessary to make these improvements. They just don't have
enough customers over which to spread the cost.
Mr. Johnson. OK. All right.
Gentlemen, for Mr. Newman, Mr. Keegan, and Mr. Selman, what
challenges do you have in assessing the drinking water State
Revolving Funds and how does that compare with accessing rural
utility service funding?
Mr. Newman. Well, and I will allow these gentlemen to
elaborate. But one of the issues--and, I think, we touched on
it as well--you have got more help in applying with RUS as
opposed to SRF. The cost of applying for SRF, you may have to
utilize services from a consultant which adds to the cost and
that is typically not the case with the rural development
process.
Mr. Johnson. OK. Mr. Selman?
Mr. Selman. Yes. Well, we have been able to use some SRF
money. Our engineer takes whatever they allow as that
consultant amount. You know, whatever they allow for an
attorney, for an engineer or whatever, he does the paperwork
for whatever that is. And they have got that specified in the
loan.
Mr. Johnson. OK.
Mr. Selman. And we have been able to--I know certain
regions, maybe not. But we have been able to take advantage of
some SRF money. We were having trouble getting money through
rural development.
Mr. Johnson. Thank you. Mr. Selman. My time has expired.
But, Mr. Keegan, do you want to respond?
Mr. Keegan. We have had a lot of trouble just accessing
funds from either program. In New York State, a lot of the
funding goes to communities that have some sort of citation,
some problem with their system. Our engineers work very hard to
keep our system smooth running. So we are sort of at the bottom
of the pile. So----
Mr. Johnson. Thank you very much.
Mr. Chairman, rural America knows hard it is to get blood
out of a turnip, and I appreciate you having this hearing so
that we can shed some light on how difficult it is to do this.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Shimkus. Well, thank you very much.
And I thank my ranking member and my vice chair, who is,
you know, trying to lead this charge, too.
Last but not least, Mr. Cramer from a rural State of North
Dakota.
So you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Cramer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman from Illinois and
ranking member from New York, for acknowledging rural America
and for reminding us there are other rural places that are
better known for their urban centers. It is good to have an
alliance.
My colleagues or my constituents with the North Dakota
Rural Water Systems Association would be very proud of all of
you. You have done a great job today, and I felt right at home
even with the unusual accents. But it is a reminder that there
are some things we work together on and that are very
important.
And I won't--you know, I won't delay except to tell you
that we hear a lot--I hear a lot about the circuit rider
program from our folks, and I think you raise a very important
issue. And I think that it is incumbent upon us now, as
policymakers and eventually appropriators, to look for
opportunities to prioritize some of the programs you talked
about within the context of the entire act. And given the
constraints, the financial constraints we have, we do have to
be a little bit creative, but certainly we can re-prioritize.
I want to just ask for maybe a little bit of elaboration on
one point. I thought the GAO report was fantastic frankly. And
I think that it was--it is nice to see the alphabet soup, as my
constituents often refer to it, and see that there is both
recommendation, findings, and then response by multiple
agencies that have a tendency perhaps to create extra burden by
virtue of requiring, you know, sort of uniform processes, but
not in a uniform way. And so the uniform preliminary
engineering report template, I think, is a great tool.
And I think at a time when our constituents really are
looking for an efficient, effective Government, this is a good
example. And I raise it because I wonder how many more times we
could duplicate this throughout the system. One of the
frustrations I have seen in the last 2 years here is, not just
with EPA and USDA rural developments, certainly, in fact, you
know, there are many others have more. I just hope that we
could, as a House, as a Congress, and as public officials at
every level, look for more of these types of opportunities
where the public could go, wow, that makes perfect sense.
Because right now they look at it--and I am sure you all do and
say, ``You mean I have to hire the engineering firm to do the
exact same thing all over again for another agency and pay them
this same.''
So, I guess, mainly what I want to say is thanks for that.
I will want to be monitoring that very carefully to see how it
works out, and I know you will as well, Mr. Gomez, because I
think therein lies the nuggets of opportunity to demonstrate
functionality of Government in a way that people expect of us
and that we haven't probably done so well.
Mr. Gomez. Thank you. And we are tracking that, by the way.
It is part of our tracking that we do every year because we
want to make sure that those agencies are making progress and
that it is helping the communities that are in need.
Mr. Cramer. Well, thank you for that. And again thanks to
all of you. And I will leave some time on the clock and not--
and just thank you for being so patient to hang around with me
this long.
Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Shimkus. Gentlemen yields back his time.
It looks like we are about gone. Do you have anything else
you want to say and take an opportunity?
Mr. Tonko. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just want to commend the entire panel. I think what you
shared with us is not only great insight, but advocacy for what
is a very high priority, and you have done it through that
frontline experience. So it provides an extra bit of impact, I
think, on the decisions that are made here.
But thank you for reinforcing what we have understood to be
a problem. And this is a very high priority problem, I would
think, for the country. So thank you very much. And I was
impressed by all the statements that you have made and the
responses that you have provided.
Mr. Shimkus. Yes. I want to thank the ranking member for
those comments.
And, again, thank you for being here. I think it is just
going to energize us to try to--you know, I have kind of asked
Mr. Tonko and Mr. Harper to now get together and try to see
where there are similarities and agreements so that we can kind
of move forward together.
And you could see where there is a lot of areas in our
country that are kind of left behind just because they are
small. And it is not a political statement. It is just the
nature of our country.
So I really appreciated the involvement of my colleagues,
too. So thank you.
I need some business to do. I ask unanimous consent that
all subcommittee members have 5 legislative days to submit
opening statements for the record. Without objection, so
ordered.
Also unanimous consent inserting a letter from Dr. Ralph
Jones and a letter and a report from the Environmental Working
Group.
Without objection, so ordered. \1\
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\1\ The information has been retained in committee files and also
is available at http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF18/20150227/
103031/HHRG-114-IF18-20150227-SD005.pdf.
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Mr. Shimkus. And remind folks that members of the committee
have 10 days to submit written questions for the witnesses to
be included. You may get some as follow-up. We would ask that
you answer those and return those, if you can.
And that is, without objection, so ordered.
And with that, the hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:08 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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