[House Hearing, 114 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
ISIL IN AMERICA:
DOMESTIC TERROR AND RADICALIZATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
HOMELAND SECURITY, AND INVESTIGATIONS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
FEBRUARY 26, 2015
__________
Serial No. 114-6
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
93-527 PDF WASHINGTON : 2015
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing
Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800;
DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC,
Washington, DC 20402-0001
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan
Wisconsin JERROLD NADLER, New York
LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas ZOE LOFGREN, California
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
DARRELL E. ISSA, California STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
STEVE KING, Iowa Georgia
TRENT FRANKS, Arizona PEDRO R. PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas JUDY CHU, California
JIM JORDAN, Ohio TED DEUTCH, Florida
TED POE, Texas LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah KAREN BASS, California
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina SUZAN DelBENE, Washington
RAUUL LABRADOR, Idaho HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York
BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island
DOUG COLLINS, Georgia SCOTT PETERS, California
RON DeSANTIS, Florida
MIMI WALTERS, California
KEN BUCK, Colorado
JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas
DAVE TROTT, Michigan
MIKE BISHOP, Michigan
Shelley Husband, Chief of Staff & General Counsel
Perry Apelbaum, Minority Staff Director & Chief Counsel
------
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and Investigations
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., Wisconsin, Chairman
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas, Vice-Chairman
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia PEDRO R. PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico
TED POE, Texas JUDY CHU, California
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina KAREN BASS, California
RAUUL LABRADOR, Idaho CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana
KEN BUCK, Colorado
MIKE BISHOP, Michigan
Caroline Lynch, Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
----------
FEBRUARY 26, 2015
Page
OPENING STATEMENTS
The Honorable F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., a Representative in
Congress from the State of Wisconsin, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and
Investigations................................................. 1
The Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Representative in Congress
from the State of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and Investigations........ 2
The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in Congress from
the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary 16
The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress
from the State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee on
the Judiciary.................................................. 17
WITNESSES
Michael Steinbach, Assistant Director, Federal Bureau of
Investigation
Oral Testimony................................................. 26
Prepared Statement............................................. 29
Richard W. Stanek, Sheriff, Hennepin County, Minneapolis, MN
Oral Testimony................................................. 33
Prepared Statement............................................. 36
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
H.R. 48, the ``No Fly for Foreign Fighters Act''................. 5
Material submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a
Representative in Congress from the State of Texas, and Ranking
Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security,
and Investigations............................................. 9
Prepared Statement of Rodney Monroe, Chief of Police, Charlotte
Mecklenburg Police Department.................................. 20
ISIL IN AMERICA:
DOMESTIC TERROR AND RADICALIZATION
----------
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 2015
House of Representatives
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,
Homeland Security, and Investigations
Committee on the Judiciary
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:19 a.m., in
room 2141, Rayburn Office Building, the Honorable F. James
Sensenbrenner, (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Sensenbrenner, Goodlatte, Jackson
Lee, Conyers, Gohmert, Chabot, Poe, Chu, Bass, Labrador,
Richmond, Buck, and Bishop.
Staff Present: (Majority) Allison Halataei, Parliamentarian
& General Counsel; Caroline Lynch, Subcommittee Chief Counsel;
Jason Herring, Counsel; Alicia Church, Clerk; (Minority) Aaron
Hiller, Counsel; and Veronica Eligan, Professional Staff
Member.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The Subcommittee will come to order.
Without objection, the Chair will be authorized to declare
recesses during votes in the House. I will yield myself 5
minutes for an opening statement.
Today's hearing will examine the Islamic State of Iraq and
the Levant, or ISIL, and the domestic terrorism threats posed
by these terrorists. And while ISIL seems to have reared its
head only in the last 18 months, a closer look quickly reveals
ISIL to be an old foe; one with whom the United States has done
battle for more than a decade. Before the group declared itself
a global caliphate and adopted its current name, it was merely
the Islamic State of Iraq. During war, members of this same
group were among the most prolific perpetrators of attacks upon
American troops and our partners in Iraq.
The procession of name changes; however, has made no
difference at ISIL's commitment to harm Americans. Earlier this
month, we were all reminded of this when we learned of Kayla
Mueller's death after 18 months of ISIL captivity. The 26-year-
old from Prescott, Arizona traveled to Syria with Doctors
Without Borders to help alleviate the suffering brought there
by Islamic extremism. Distance does not make us in the United
States immune from ISIL's destructive ideology. From far beyond
the battlefields of Syria and Iraq comes funding and support
for this group's call to arms against the West, and the
domestic threat is not limited to New York City and our
Nation's capital.
Two weeks ago in St. Louis, five Bosnians were charged with
providing material support to ISIL. The suspects allegedly
provided weapons, military uniforms, and equipment and money to
a sixth Bosnian who left the United States in 2013 to join ISIL
and Syria. Alarmingly, all six individuals are natives of
Bosnia who immigrated to the United States. Three are now
naturalized citizens and the remaining three have either
refugee or legal residence status. But the threats posed by
ISIL's hateful ideology are not purely external. Inciting
Americans to join their ranks or to ally their selves with
ISIL's mission is a pivotal component in their campaign of
violence against America and its people.
Last month, a Cincinnati man named Christopher Lee Cornell
was arrested at a gun shop purchasing multiple weapons. He is
alleged to have been collecting for an attack here in
Washington, D.C. Mr. Cornell became an adherent of radical
Islam on the Internet having adopted the Jihadi world of view.
He aimed to gun down Members of Congress and government
employees for the glory of ISIL, a terrorist group on the other
side of the world with whom he had no connection except
devotion to this same perverted Islamist ideology.
As FBI Director Comey has pointed out, these are not
isolated incidents. ISIL's connections are being investigated
in virtually every part of the United States, but on the heels
of the St. Louis and Cincinnati arrests, in just days after
ISIL released a video depicting the beheading of 21 Egyptian
Christians in Libya, President Obama convened a summit on
countering violent extremism. A summit that failed to include
the FBI Director James Comey and refused to acknowledge that
ISIL and other terrorist organizations are motivated by radical
Islam.
As one commentator noted, the summit was strangely
sympathetic to Islamic sensibilities in grievances at the very
time when rampaging Jihadists, while quoting Islamic scripture,
are barbarically slaughtering their enemies and conducting a
pogrom against Christians.
The President's unwillingness to acknowledge the true
motives of these terrorists, not only embolden stir campaigns
of terror, it makes Americans less safe. Meanwhile, ISIL
continues its march across western Iraq and continues to spew
its propaganda of hatred and murder across the globe.
Yesterday, three New York City residents, two from Uzbekistan
and one from Kazakhstan, were arrested for plotting to travel
to Syria to join ISIL and ``wage jihad.'' According to the
criminal complaint, one of these men stated he would kill
President Obama if he had the opportunity to do so.
The witnesses today will hopefully shed light on the
escalating domestic terror threat posed by ISIL and those who
would ally themselves with Islamic extremism.
It is now my pleasure to recognize for her opening
statement, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, the gentle woman
from Texas, Ms. Jackson Lee.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Good morning.
Thank you so very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
holding this hearing. We are finding so much common ground as
we try to include issues of criminal justice reform, but also
securing the domestic tranquility of this Nation.
This hearing is involving ISIL in America, domestic terror,
and radicalization. And so, it is important to note that this
Islamic State is a brutal terrorist organization, it has
murdered thousands of civilians including four United States
citizens, it threatens to topple regional movements, it has, as
its stated goal, the religious and ethnic cleansing of the
areas under its control. But I think it is important to note,
as has been said by our Commander and Chief, United States is
not at war with Islam but it is the contorted, disjointed and
ludicrous interpretation of those who simply want to be violent
and vile and kill people.
And even if it cannot strike the United States homeland
directly as it has been alleged, ISIL clearly hopes to inspire
Americans to act against us from within. As evidence, the
Chairman has already noted, there are three would be ISIL
actors caught and apprehended by the FBI, in which I thank you
so very much, two at John F. Kennedy airport where millions
travel every day, as do millions every day in the United
States; grandmothers going to see grandchildren, College
students going home, business persons seeking to participate in
the capitalistic system of this Nation, or people simply going
to vacation maybe even in the Nation's capitol, the cradle of
democracy for this Nation.
So while I am grateful that the United States is leading a
multinational coalition to degrade and ultimately destroy
Islamic State, I am certain that we cannot bomb our way out of
this problem. In my view, the domestic threat posed by ISIL and
other terrorist organization must be met on three fronts.
First, we must engage in real outreach to the communities
most at risk for radicalization. By outreach, I do not mean the
past practices of certain police departments that deployed
undercover agents into mosques and community centers. Maybe the
only approach, we know that is the approach that is used when
you are investigating. Nor do I mean that the heavy-handed use
of informants within certain immigrant communities. These
tactics have been misdirected and costly.
Countering violent extremism should not ever be the pretext
to profiling a United States person on the base of race,
religion, or culture. However, we know that intelligence
gathering is important. And so, I certainly believe that that
is a strong element of making sure that those who want to do us
harm do not do so.
But last week, I had the privilege of attending the White
House Summit on Countering Violent Extremism. At that event,
President Obama observed terrorist groups like al-Qaeda and
ISIL deliberately target their propaganda in the hopes of
reaching and brainwashing young Muslims, especially those who
may be disillusioned or wrestling with their identity. The
president is right: ISIL has proven adept at using social media
to spread its message. The United States in near time
calculates that the group posts 90,000 tweets and social media
responses every day.
How do we combat this propaganda? By empowering local
communities, teachers, faith communities, and police officers
alike to talk openly and honestly about what ISIL is, what it
threatens to do, and how it twists the basic threats of Islam
to service its own purposes. I am particularly interested in
how we can engage with segments of these communities that often
go overlooked. For example, women and young people who are not
always invited to participate in the dialogue that have the
power to spread a positive message where police officers and
government spokespersons cannot.
Secondly, must maintain vigilance at our borders. To date,
to our knowledge about 150 United States persons have traveled
to Syria or Iraq to fight along side ISIL, the new surf front
and the like. There are known instances of a U.S. persons
attempting to return from the region after participating in
that conflict.
The more immediate threat, of course, is the thousands of
individuals from our allied Nations in Europe, Northern Africa,
and Middle East who have traveled to Syria undetected, gained
terrorist training or military experience, that may now seek to
travel. This is not an idle concern. The national contraries
and system estimates that 20,000 individuals from 90 countries
have traveled to fight in Syria.
Mr. Chairman, I have introduced H.R. 48, the ``No Fly for
Foreign Fighters Act'' which I ask unanimous consent to enter
into the record?
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Without objection.
[The information referred to follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
Ms. Jackson Lee. Which would require the government to
review both terrorist screening database and the terrorist
watch list for a complete list with respect to any of these
foreign fighters and to report back to Congress with the
results within 90 days.
Finally, we must fully fund, Mr. Chairman, the Department
of Homeland Security without delay. The Islamic State is our
focus today but is only one threat in an increasing complex
landscape.
I would hope that we would again, as I know that the
Chairman and myself have worked together with Members of the
Judiciary Committee, that we enter into an effort to protect
national security over political security. And I say that to
reinforce the final words I want to offer of the Honorable
Susan E. Spaulding who is the Under Secretary of National
Protection and Programs Director of the U.S. Department of
Homeland Security. Just her words in terms of the whole
combination of threat and cybersecurity threats. ``As a nation,
we are faced with pervasive cyber threats. Malicious actors,
including those at nation-state level, are motivated by a
variety of reasons that include espionage, political and
ideological beliefs, and financial gain. Increasingly, state,
local, tribal, and territorial networks are experiencing cyber
activity of a sophistication level similar to that seen on
Federal networks and has probably not been seen before.''
This hearing is a vital hearing because it squarely places
us in the role of fighting terrorism. And I thank the Chairman
very much and I thank the witnesses for their presence here
today.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Does the gentlewoman wish to include the
statement that she just referred to in the record?
Ms. Jackson Lee. I will ask unanimous consent, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Without objection.
[The information referred to follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The Chair recognizes the Chair of the
full Committee, gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Goodlatte.
Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Chairman Sensenbrenner.
With increasing regularity, Americans are being witnessed
to the depravity of terrorists claiming the mantle of the
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL. Relatively
unknown to many in America just a few years ago, ISIL relishes
in their own barbarity with videos depicting shootings,
beheadings, and the burning alive of unarmed prisoners.
Recently, ISIL claimed to mark the occasion of conquering a
small town in western Iraq by burning 45 of its inhabitants at
the stake. The group's history gives us little reason to
dismiss this as hyperbole. And ISIL's savagery is limited no
more by geography than by human decency. Earlier this month in
Libya, hundreds of miles from the group's claimed territory,
ISIL terrorists rounded up and videotaped themselves
decapitating 21 Egyptian Christians who refused to renounce
Christ and accept ISIL as their new masters.
Americans are not mere observers of ISIL's atrocities. Our
people and our homeland are intimate parts of ISIL's plans. The
organization's leadership had attacks on America and the rest
of the West. They have solicited young people to renounce their
lives and join them in their perverted war. Unfortunately, even
deep in the American heartland, these calls have found some
receptive ears.
Speaking in Jackson, Mississippi earlier this month, FBI
Director James Comey emphasized that city is not beyond ISIL's
reach. He urged law enforcement and American citizens
everywhere to be vigilant and not dismiss the domestic threat
from extremism. Just yesterday, Director Comey disclosed that
the Bureau is investigating suspected supporters of ISIL in
every U.S. state.
Director Comey's concerns are borne out by the facts. The
last several years have seen three distinct threats to the
homeland from Levantine terrorism. The first is the recruitment
of young Americans into the ISIL fold. In addition to thousands
of Europeans, over 150 Americans have been discovered joining
in the fighting in the Middle East or attempting to do so.
Those who have taken up the ISIL banner fit no social,
ethnic, or even gender profile. Douglas McAuthur McCain grew up
in Chicago and Minneapolis with a close-knit family. He was a
popular joker in high school and a devoted fan of the Chicago
Bulls. Last summer, a tattoo of his was used to confirm him as
the first American to be killed fighting for the terrorists in
Syria.
Young women are also being recruited, lured to leave their
families and become Jihad wives of ISIL fighters. Shannon
Conley, a teenager from Arvada, Colorado was arrested at Denver
International Airport last April in route to her arranged
marriage with a 32-year old Tunisian Jihadi. She had changed
her Facebook status to ``Slave of Allah'' and told FBI agents
she looked forward to using the skills she learned in the U.S.
Army Explorers program to nurse wounded ISIL fighters.
If and when these Americans choose to return to the United
States from the battlefields of a brutal civil war, it will be
difficult to stop them reentering. It will be even more
difficult to know what they are capable of. We know, for
example, that last month's Charlie Hebdo shooters had traveled
to the Middle East and received training from Jihadi groups.
The second threat, perhaps even more dangerous, requires no
travel beyond the nearest computer. The Western World has been
plagued by a rash of attacks by self-radicalized lone-wolf
terrorists who have claimed allegiance to ISIL. Last year,
Canada suffered two serious terrorist attacks by ISIL adherents
who had never gotten closer to the group than their Internet
message boards. One man drove his car into a group of Canadian
Forces soldiers; the other murdered a soldier before attempting
to storm the Canadian Parliament.
In Australia, a man took 18 people hostage at a chocolate
shop, killing two of them. In Belgium, a man shot dead four
people at a Jewish Museum. All of these terrorist committed
their attacks under the banner of ISIL.
Finally, we must not forget that the core group of ISIL,
half a world away, plots to attack us directly here in the
homeland. This last month, ISIL's central command reiterated
their intention to attack American policemen, soldiers, and
members of our intelligence community.
I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today about
these threats, how they are evolving domestically, and the
challenges our intelligence and law enforcement officials face
in thwarting these violent terrorist and those who pledge
allegiance to them here in our homeland. I also hope to hear
how Congress and this Committee can best ensure that our
country is prepared to stop these threats.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Time of the gentleman has expired.
The Chair now recognizes for his opening statement, the
Ranking Member and Chairman emeritus of the full Committee, the
gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers.
Mr. Conyers. Thank you, Chairman Sensenbrenner. And to all
of my colleagues here, particularly those who have made opening
statements.
I am deeply concerned about the rise of the Islamic State
in Iraq and the Levant, ISIL. It is a grave regional threat
operating from Anbar province and Western Iraq, it seized
territory from Baghdad to Aleppo, and continues to press north
into Kurdish territory. In more familiar terms, ISIL now
controls an area larger than the United Kingdom.
Along the way, it has directed horrific violence at
thousands of civilians, particularly ethnic and religious
minorities, and ISIL has also executed hostages including four
United States citizens in barbaric and public fashion. So we
should not underestimate ISIL's murderous intent nor its
ability to inspire others to do us harm. But we've learned much
from the past decade of fighting radical extremists and it
seems important today to apply some of those lessons in our
discussion.
The first and most simple lesson is don't panic. As of this
morning, the Department of Homeland Security is unaware of any
specific credible threat to the United States homeland from
ISIL. The National Counterterrorism Center confirms that
assessment noting further that any threat to the U.S. homeland
from these types of extremists is likely to be limited in scope
and in scale. I do not suggest that we in any way ignore ISIL
or the suffering it has caused. No way. But I do point out only
that the group's ability to strike directly at the United
States appears to be limited and that our reaction to the home
front should be measured and appropriate.
The rise of the Islamic State is not an excuse for domestic
law enforcement to stigmatize American Muslims. It does not
legitimatize tactics that have isolated and alienated the
communities whose help we need most. Nor does the threat of
ISIL justify the government's continued use of Section 215 of
the U.S.A. Patriot Act to conduct mass surveillance on law-
abiding citizens. The mass telephone metadata program has never
disrupted a terrorist plot, does not extend to the new media
formats favored by ISIL, and must be brought to an end without
delay.
We have better tools at our disposal which leads me to this
consideration: Our best hope for countering the threat of
radicalization at home is community engagement at the local
level. We haven't evidence of a direct threat from ISIL on the
U.S. homeland but as my colleagues have noted the group has an
aggressive social medial presence. Their propaganda targets the
most isolated elements of our society. We know what works to
counter this messaging. Local, state, and Federal law
enforcement must build partnerships with teachers, clergy, and
other community leaders. These efforts must clearly preserve
religious exercise and freedom of expression.
Once we have established trust and open lines of
communication between police and the communities most at risk
for radicalization, we win on two fronts. We are better able to
identify potential threats before they go dangerous and
community leaders have enlisted a powerful partner in
countering the twisted rhetoric of ISIL and others like it.
I believe the witnesses here today will testify to the
effectiveness of this basic approach and I look forward to
further discussion with them on the matter. And perhaps most
pressing at this late hour, we must fully fund the Department
of Homeland Security.
Mr. Chairman, I believe it comes down to a question of
priorities. We must preserve the capability to track foreign
fighters before they attempt to enter the United States. We
must keep the United States Air Marshalls in the sky and we
must continue to coordinate with our agents on the front lines
of homeland security, the transportation Safety Administration,
the United States Customs and Border Patrol and our own
partners in state, local and tribal law enforcement.
Some of these functions may continue in the event of a
shutdown but many will not. Most of the department's leadership
team will be furloughed. Federal support to state and local
initiatives will terminate, none of the officers who must show
up to work will necessarily be paid. And so, my colleagues,
there was a time when I believed that we could find common
ground on a comprehensive immigration reform. I still believe
that. If Speaker Boehner would allow the measure to come to the
floor, the bill that has sat on his desk for more than 500 days
would receive majority support in the House. But even if we
must disagree for now on the urgency of immigration reform,
surely we can agree that we must not compromise our national
security in a futile effort to score political points against
the president.
Whatever you think of the underlying policy, a decision to
defund the Department of Homeland Security simply will not
result in the president's reversing his actions on immigration.
I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, that the threat posed by
ISIL to the homeland is real. I hope that our conversation
today will convince my colleagues to prioritize our security
over an unrelated political spat and fully fund DHS, Department
of Homeland Security, without delay.
I too join in welcoming our witnesses. I thank the Chairman
and yield back.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired long
ago.
Without objection, other Member's opening statements will
be made apart of the record.
Today we have a very distinguished panel of witnesses. I
will begin by swearing in our witnesses before introducing
them.
If you would please rise.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about
give to this Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth so help you God?
Let the record show that all of the witnesses have answered
in the affirmative.
Charlotte Police Chief, Rodney Monroe, is unable to be here
today due to the weather and his written testimony will be
entered into the record without objection.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Monroe follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Michael B. Steinbach is the Assistant
Director of the Counter Terrorism Division. Mr. Steinbach began
at the FBI in the Chicago Division. He has served as head of
the Violent Crimes Taskforce at the FBI's Washington Field
Office, the Assistant Section Chief for the International
Terrorism Operations Section of the Counterterrorism Division,
and as Deputy Director for Law Enforcement Services at the CIES
Counterterrorism Center. He was then appointed as Special
Assistant to the Associate Deputy Director at FBI Headquarters.
Mr. Steinbach has also served as the Special Agent-in-Charge of
the FBI's Jacksonville Division and later as the Special Agent-
in-Charge of the Miami Division.
Sorry you are coming to the snowy parts and you are at the
end of your career.
Mr. Steinbach has earned a Bachelor's of Science Degree in
aerospace engineering from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1988 after
which he served as a Naval Aviator in the U.S. Navy.
Richard W. Stanek, who is familiar as I am with weather
like this, is the Sheriff of Hennepin County, Minnesota. In
this role he created a new crime fighting unit at the Sheriff's
Office to serve law enforcement agencies and communities
county-wide. Sheriff Stanek began his career at the Minneapolis
Police Department, he rose through the ranks from patrol
officer to commander of criminal investigations. While a police
officer he was elected five times to the Minnesota legislature
where he authored the State's DWI felony law. In 2003, the
governor appointed him Commissioner of Public Safety and
Director of Homeland Security for Minnesota. Sheriff Stanek
earned a criminal justice degree from the University of
Minnesota and a Master's Degree in public administration from
Hamline University.
You are all familiar with the green, yellow, and red lights
in front of you. I would ask that you limit your testimony to a
5-minute summary after which the Committee Members will ask
questions under the 5-minute rule.
Mr. Steinbach, you are first.
TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL STEINBACH, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FEDERAL
BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
Mr. Steinbach. Thank you, sir.
Good morning, Chairman Sensenbrenner, Ranking Member Lee,
and Members of the Committee. It is also good to see Ranking
Member Conyers present and I appreciate Chairman Goodlatte's
opening remarks.
Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to
discuss the dynamic threat of foreign fighters traveling in
support of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, commonly
known as ISIL, and the continued threat to the United States
posed by homegrown violent extremists. These threats remain one
of the biggest priorities for the FBI, the intelligence
community, and our foreign, state, and local partners. It is
the blending of the homegrown violent extremism with the
foreign fighter ideology which is today's latest adaptation of
the threat. I am pleased to be here today with a strong state
and local partner, Hennepin County Sheriff, Richard Stanek.
Conflicts in Syria and Iraq are currently the most
attractive overseas threats for Western-based extremists who
want to engage in violence. We estimate upwards of 150
Americans have traveled or attempted to travel to Syria. While
this number is small in comparison to the number of European
travelers, we must also consider the influence of groups like
ISIL have on individuals located in the United States who are
inspired to commit acts of violence. It is this influence which
I refer to as the blended threat.
ISIL has proven ruthless in its violent campaign to rule
and has become yet the latest terror group attracting like-
minded Western extremists. Yet, from a homeland perspective, it
is ISIL's widespread reach through the Internet and social
media which is the most concerning as ISIL has proven
dangerously competent like no other group before it at
employing such tools for its nefarious strategy.
ISIL utilizes high-quality traditional media platforms as
well as a multitude of most social media campaigns to propagate
its extremist ideas. Like al-Qaeda and other foreign terrorist
organizations, ISIL has effectively used the Internet to
communicate, to both radicalize and recruit. Unlike other
groups, ISIL has gone one step further and demonstrates an
effectiveness to spot and assess potential recruits.
Social media, in particular, has provided ISIL with a
technical platform for widespread recruitment, operational
direction, and, consequently, has helped bridge the gap between
foreign fighters and homegrown violent extremists.
As a communication tool, the Internet remains a critical
node for terror groups to exploit. One recent example occurred
just a few weeks ago. A group of five individuals was arrested
for knowingly and willingly conspiring and attempting to
provide material support and resources to a designated foreign
terrorist organization active in Syria and Iraq. Much of their
conspiracy occurred on the Internet.
Following on other group's doctrines, ISIL too has
advocated for lone wolf attacks. Last month, ISIL released a
video via social media reiterating the group's encouragement of
lone offender attacks in Western countries, specifically
advocating for attacks against soldiers and law enforcement and
intelligence members. Several incidents have occurred in the
United States and Europe over the past few months thato
indicate this call-to-arms has resonated among ISIL supporters
and sympathizers.
In one case, an Ohio-based man was arrested in January
after he obtained a weapon and stated his intent to conduct an
attack on the U.S. Capitol here in Washington, D.C. Using a
Twitter account, the individual posted statements, videos, and
other content indicating support for ISIL and he planned an
attack based on his voiced support.
Likewise, recent events in Australia, Canada, France, and
the U.K. reflect the power of this radicalized message and
reemphasize our need to remain vigilant in the homeland since
these small-scale attacks are just as feasible within the
United States. We should also understand community and world
events as viewed through the eyes of the committed individual
may trigger action as we have seen with the highly publicized
events of the attack on the military personnel at the Tomb of
the Unknown Soldier in Canada and the hostage situation at the
cafee? in Australia. These acts of terror will attract
international attention and may inspire copycat attacks.
ISIL is not the only high profile terrorist organization of
concern, however. Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, or AQAP,
poses an ongoing threat to the homeland and U.S. interests
abroad. AQAP's online English magazine Inspire advocates for
lone wolf attacks to conduct attacks against the homeland and
Western targets by utilizing simple and inexpensive tactics and
methods.
Lastly, social media has allowed groups such as ISIL to use
the Internet even more effectively by spotting assessing
potential recruits. With the widespread distribution of the
social media, terrorists can identify sympathetic individuals
of all ages in the United States. Spot, assess, recruit, and
radicalize, either to travel or to conduct a homeland attack.
The foreign terrorist now has direct access into the United
States like never before.
As a result, it is imperative that the FBI and all law
enforcement organizations understand the latest communication
tools and are equipped to identify and prevent terror attacks
in the homeland. We live in a technologically driven society
and, just as private industry has adapted to these modern forms
of communication, so too has the terrorists. Unfortunately,
changing forms of communication on the Internet and through
social media are quickly outpacing the laws and the technology
designed to allow for lawful intercept of communication
content.
This real and growing gap the FBI refers to as ``Going
Dark'' cannot be ignored. We must continue to build
partnerships and work with Internet providers and social media
companies to ensure lawful, appropriate collection when
possible. Most companies are not required by statute to develop
lawful intercept capabilities for law enforcement. As a result,
services are developed and deployed without any ability to
lawfully intercept and collect.
The FBI, with our Federal, state, and local partners is
utilizing all investigative techniques and methods to combat
the threat radicalizing individuals may pose to the United
States. In coordination with our domestic and foreign partners,
we are rigorously collecting and analyzing intelligence
information as it pertains to the ongoing threat posed by ISIL,
AQAP, and other foreign terrorist organizations.
I will end my comments here and put the rest in the record.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Steinbach follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Without objection.
Sheriff Stanek?
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD W. STANEK, SHERIFF,
HENNEPIN COUNTY, MINNEAPOLIS, MN
Sheriff Stanek. ----
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Could you please turn your mic on,
Sheriff?
Sheriff Stanek. I'm sorry.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. And we will reset the clock.
Sheriff Stanek. Well, thank you, Chairman Sensenbrenner and
Congresswoman Jackson Lee, for you generous invitation to
testify this morning about our community engagement efforts in
the Twin Cities and, in particular, our outreach efforts to the
Somali Diaspora Community.
I'm Sheriff Rich Stanek from Hennepin County, Minneapolis,
Minnesota, a very diverse county with 1.2 million residents;
425,000 of those residents are non-Caucasian. We have 40,000
Oromo, 35,000 Liberians, and nearly 100,000 Somali residents
living in Hennepin County; the largest Somali population in the
Nation.
I have 32 years of policing experience and I currently
serve on the National Sheriffs and Major County Sheriffs
Association executive boards representing our Nation's
sheriffs.
Mr. Chair and Members, just last week I joined our United
States Attorney, Andy Luger and other community leaders from
Minnesota to participate in a White House Summit on Countering
Violent Extremism. We learned firsthand in late 2008 about the
reality of radicalization when we had dozens of young men
radicalized by al-Shabaab and leave the Twin Cities to fight in
Somalia. Several have been confirmed killed fighting for al-
Shabaab, including the first confirmed suicide bomber from the
United States, Shirwa Ahmend.
Mr. Chairman, as one of the Committee Members pointed out
this morning, we also had Douglas McAuthur McCain, the first
American killed in Syria fighting with ISIL. Most of these
young men had never seen Somalia or Syria, they only knew of
their American lives. Their parents were shocked that their
sons would return to the place that they had so desperately
fled.
The threat of radicalization from designated terrorist
organizations like al-Shababb or ISIL, has become even more
invasive; YouTube videos and chat rooms, Facebook pages with
links to increasingly violent radical online programs,
training, and ideology. And these threats are real.
Just this week, al-Shababb released another propaganda
video on YouTube mentioning the Mall of America in Bloomington,
Minnesota, one of the largest cities in my county, encouraging
al-Shababb followers to act out.
Now, Mr. Chairman, Members, this is a marked change in the
message from recruiting people to train overseas to recruiting
Americans to train and act out here in the homeland; akin to a
lone wolf.
In response, we issued a joint media statement and public
messaging, included the participation of local, state, and
Federal law enforcement, as well as the Mall of America
Security, a private corporation. We have developed these
public-private partnerships that also include the Somali
Community leaders, educators, and member of the business
community, as well as faith leaders, to strengthen the public
safety fabric of our community.
Our efforts at first were to respond, but now we work to
prevent and work to intervene. We help community leaders and
family members identify the behaviors that can be cause for
concern; such as withdrawal from family and normal social
circles, accessing radical religious or Jihadist websites,
forming close partnership within a small group of likeminded
people, or obtaining large sums of money, conducting
fundraising efforts, and acquiring travel documents amongst
others.
We are concerned, Mr. Chairman and others, about young
people in isolation who cut themselves off from their family
and their support networks. So we encourage parents, mothers
and fathers, educators, business, and faith leaders, to close
their own generational and cultural gaps and reach out to at-
risk youth. We all share a common mission of protecting our
kids and our future.
Mr. Chair and Members, at first, traditional methods for
building communities of trust weren't working. We had language
and cultural barriers that required new strategies:
translations were difficult at best; men didn't want women at
meetings; certain groups were in opposition to other groups;
The greatest barrier of all, though, Somalis were distrustful
of law enforcement because in their home country law
enforcement often operates as the oppressive arm of government.
The key to overcoming these barriers was the one-on-one
personal relationships between a gentleman named Imam Roble and
myself. Imam Roble was introduced and offered his prayer for
world peace at the opening of the White House CVE Summit just
last week. Others trusted us because he trusted us. He became
our sponsor in the community, personally asking members to
attend One Day Citizen, academies tailored to the Somali
community. And we let everyone know we would be working with
everyone; the elders, the religious leaders, women, and youth.
We hired the first sworn Somali Deputy Sheriff in Minnesota,
Halssan Hussein. We added a Somali community member to our
Community Engagement Team, Abdi Mohamed.
A great example of our new level of engagement. A Somali
woman on our Community Advisory Board assisted us in adopting a
new policy on religious head coverings, hijabs, in our jail.
For me and law enforcement officers like me across this
great country, fulfilling our Oath of Office means more than
respect. We protect the privacy and the civil liberties of all
residents in addition to their safety. And, for us, this is
what it means to serve and protect.
Mr. Chair and Members, violent extremism is a local threat.
Local law enforcement will be the first to respond and we
should be on the front line to educate and strengthen our
communities, and to prevent or disrupt these threats. Our local
law enforcement efforts coincide with the White House National
Strategy for Counterterrorism to protect our local communities
in ways that are consistent with our values as a Nation and as
a people.
By protecting the civil rights and liberties, we are
strengthening our communities and building resiliency.
Mr. Chairman and Members, we are presenting our American
model of self-government, and the rule of law, an alternative
to the radical message and ideology, a model of freedom and
opportunity, education, dignity, and hope.
Mr. Chair and Members, thank you very much for the
opportunity to testify here this morning.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Stanek follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Well, thank you both for very on-point
testimony.
And Sheriff, let me say I particularly appreciate your
outlined type of community outreach to basically identify
people who might become radicalized by sitting in front a
computer. I think that this is very important particularly in
light of the FBI Director's admonition that there are ISIL
cells in every state in the country. It is a problem that we
face in our local communities, and anyone who thinks that they
are immune of the reach of these types of radicals because they
live far away from New York or Washington D.C., I think,is
deluding themselves.
I guess that the best thing the citizens can do is, if you
see something, say something and let law enforcement know about
it. And the fact that the threat against the Mall of America
was not something that was picked up through any kind of
classified intelligence information but the radicals put it
right up on the Internet, shows how embolden they are in terms
of being able to try to perpetrate giving people who might not
be in face-to-face contact with them, some very bad ideas on
how to harm America and how to harm Americans. You know, I hope
that what you have been doing in the Twin Cities is something
that can be expanded nationwide where these undercover cells
are. So thank you.
I don't have any questions of you. I think you hit all of
the bases, but I do have some questions for Mr. Steinbach.
We know that several U.S. citizens and U.S. persons have
traveled to Syria. They usually go through Turkey; they sneak
across the borders. How are you able to track these people and,
I guess of greater concern, how are you able to track not only
people with U.S. passports but people with passports from VISA
waiver countries who have gone to Syria who might be returning
or going to the United States?
Mr. Steinbach. Sure. So I think it is a complicated answer.
There are lots of ways we identify potential travelers: human
source, technical means, strong partnerships, particularly with
our European partners state and local level, partnerships. It
has got to be a multitude of resources of plight toward the
threat. We don't get that threat right all the time. We don't
catch every single one that crosses, that leaves the country.
As you know, it is not illegal to depart the United States, so
we don't track folks departing in the United States, and they
have become very smart about going to European destinations to
mask their travel. So we have to stay on top of it. So we have
to, again, use a multitude of resources including foreign
partners who stay on top of it.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Do you have the necessary authorities to
be able to deal with these people should they attempt to come
back to the United States?
Mr. Steinbach. Absolutely.
If an individual travels over to Syria in support of ISIL,
on neutral front or any foreign terrorist organization, 2339,
U.S. 18-2339, show support to terrorism, is a good tool to use
and it is an effective tool.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Let me get to people who come from VISA
waiver countries which are primarily Western European. Are you
able to track whether any of the people who don't need VISAs,
in an attempt to fly to the United States are able to be caught
before they arrive and if they are not caught before they
arrive at the time of the airport that they are entering into
the United States?
Mr. Steinbach. So, yes and no, sir.
The knowns, and so I think Ranking Member Lee mentioned the
numbers and the volume of travelers. That is the volume of
travelers going to Syria that we know about. There is a, an
order of magnitude that is unknown to European allies. The
known members, the known travelers, they are watch listed
appropriately. So whether they are from a VISA waiver country
or not they are watch listed appropriately and we can spot them
before they come to the United States. Those unknown
individuals that the European allies are not aware of are not
watch listed, that is the problem and that is where the
challenge is.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Okay. Thank you very much.
The gentle woman from Texas, Ms. Jackson Lee.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me thank both of you for the excellent
testimony that you have given and the partnership, though it is
not an established partnership, between local government
sheriff and the FBI, Mr. Steinbach, is evident that it is
crucial.
Let me say to the Sheriff and to my colleagues, as Sheriff
Stanek mentioned, he was in Washington last week and I am
particularly grateful that you have accepted our invitation to
come back this week.
So let me go to you first. You made a very important
statement that should be reinforced. And I think Mr. Steinbach,
when I question him, will likewise reinforce it. In this
country, violent extremism is a local threat as evidenced by
FBI Director Comey as well, about ISIL cells and others. So you
were in the eye of the storm.
Earlier this week, the terrorist organization al-Shababb
posted a video declaring that Westgate was just a beginning.
Al-Shabaab and al-Qaeda, affiliate based in Somalia, took
credit for the 2013 attack on Westgate shopping mall in
Nairobi; we know how vicious and vile that was and how many
lost their lives. The video goes on to mention the Mall of
America in Bloomington, Minnesota which you have spoken of.
So I want to pointedly ask you, do we not have a due
responsibility? The threat came right to your doorsteps and I'd
like you to offer either your assessment of the tools that you
have, fusion centers, joint terrorism centers, collaboration,
with that threat coming to your doorstep even if someone would
argue that it is simply a threat with no ability to be
implemented. I always believe that caution is the better of the
game. But match that with your answer about the outreach and,
as that video came out, the potential of the outreach in
relationships to get information from the community in which we
speak; the Somalian community.
Sheriff?
Sheriff Stanek. Sure.
Well, thank you Congresswoman Jackson Lee. You are not the
first one to ask me that question this week, so I appreciate
that.
Look, this--we have set. This propaganda video put out by
ISIL mentioning the Mall of America and just that. It is not
the first time it has been mentioned. Our resiliency in
Minnesota with local law enforcement, my Federal law
enforcement partners, is very strong. We train, we exercise, we
plan and prepare incessantly hoping that something bad never
happens but knowing full well that each and every day across
this country and across this world it does. But we are
prepared.
We worked through the Joint Terrorism Taskforce with the
FBI, we work with our private sector partners like I mentioned,
add on that the Mall of America is a private security force but
they work hand-in-hand with the Bloomington Police Department,
our Sheriff's Office, our Federal law enforcement partners. Our
fusion center in Minnesota is robust and does a great job day
in and day out getting the information out to me as the Chief
Law Enforcement Officer in my county.
Ms. Jackson Lee. My time is running out. Go to the next
part of it, the outreach part and how that plays a role. And
then I have a question for Mr. Steinbach. So I am watching the
clock, but thank you.
Sheriff Stanek. Great. So, I'm sorry.
Just yesterday afternoon, before coming out here, I had
lunch with member of the Somalia Diaspora community. We talked
about the Mall of America as well as other things. They
renounced what they saw in that video. That would not have
happened several years ago. They wouldn't know how to respond.
We work with them day-in and day-out to empower them to
understand what is happening in their community with their
young men and young women so that these radicalization efforts
do not happen. It is about building long-term communities of
trust and a respectful partnership that is enduring.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much.
Mr. Steinbach, let me thank you for your work and thank the
FBI for that excellent work in New York just in the last 24 to
48 hours.
Very quickly, I'm concerned about the no-fly and--let me
just say foreign fighters. And we are looking at legislation
dealing with making sure our lists are accurate. But, frame for
us again the extent of the potential foreign fighters coming to
the United States. And then comment on any FBI efforts that
deals with the extremism as it relates to women, which is
increasing, as related by the Denver young ladies who I think
the FBI was very much involved in; and certainly an article
that I just read about a young woman in Scotland who was a
perfect teenager and now has become known as the darling
recruiter of women into extremism. How is the FBI sectioned,
has a separate section or knowing that this is a particular
issue that it must deal with?
Mr. Steinbach. So really quickly. So foreign fighter is a
problem but it is a small problem compared to our European
partners. The larger problem is that population of HVEs
inspired--those individuals who were frustrated travelers,
denied travelers don't have the means to travel. Foreign
fighters, small. The larger populous and the larger concern is
much larger. ISIL and others are looking to recruit that part.
They know they can't travel so what they are doing is they are
putting out a very effective propaganda message through social
media, through lots of platforms saying ``Hey, if you can't
come to Syria, doing something in the U.S. or Western
countries.''
That social media outreach is focused on those who use
social media; our youth. So you find the trend over the last
year or so has been a decreasing age group that are being
recruited both male and female, as well as you are seeing more
females, younger females, attracted to this message.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The gentle woman's time has expired. The
gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Chabot.
Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Steinbach, let me begin by commending you and the FBI
for your work in apprehending that 20-year old radicalized
individual who intended to attack the capitol building across
the street. This was sort of near and dear to me because he was
from my district, went to a local high school there in the
mosque that he allegedly attended, is about a quarter of a mile
from the place I had my first job and is two miles from the
home that I lived in for 30 years and lived in that, within two
miles, for 50 years now. So this is right in the heart of where
we come from.
My first question was, he claimed to have attended that
mosque, and it is relatively close to where he would have grown
up et cetera. The coverage back home on television, the people
from the mosque that were on TV were asked about him, said,
``Well, we never saw him. We don't know anything about him.''
Is that something that has been looked into up to this point?
Do we know if he was connected to that Mosque or not?
Mr. Steinbach. Let me be careful about talking about an
ongoing investigation----
Mr. Chabot. I understand.
Mr. Steinbach [continuing]. But I will say that, yes, we
have strong understanding with our local partners there, state
and locals, as to how as radicalization beginnings, what his
intent was. So we are pretty comfortable understanding that
individual.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. In that it was or wasn't connected to
that mosque?
Mr. Steinbach. So, again, I don't want to get into the
specifics of the investigation. I would say to back it up in
general and talk about HVEs in general. I will say the majority
of the radicalization proces now, though varied as it is, we
are finding the majority is online and the Internet.
Mr. Chabot. Right.
And clearly it looked at the majority of what the input
came and the motivation was online and as you indicated that
seems to be happening more and more frequently.
Sheriff Stanek, let me ask you. I also want to commend you
for your work in reaching out to the Somali community in your
area and forging a strong bond--enforcement in the Somali
Diaspora and the work you are doing to continue your hiring
efforts in order to create a more diverse agency in those types
of things.
Let me ask you about--there has been some controversy about
a spokeswoman at the state department who has made some
interesting proposition about, you know, we need to find more
jobs for these folks and, if we can do that, then they won't
end up killing us; for lack of a better term. Her quote exactly
was ``We need to go after the root causes that lead people to
join these groups whether it is lack of opportunity for jobs or
whatever, we can help them build their economies so they can
have job opportunities for these people.''
And you know, with an unemployment rate of 3.6 which is 2
Percent under the national average in Minnesota and
congratulations on that. Do you believe that if we had created
more jobs for the dozens of young men who were radicalized by
al-Shababb and became suicide bombers in Somalia that they
would have chosen a different path?
Sheriff Stanek. Yeah, Mr. Chairman and Congressman Chabot,
thank you very much for that question.
You know, I think that is only one part of the equation. I
think that is not the only way that these individuals thrive
and grow in our community. Minnesota prides itself on a very
diverse community. Many of us in Minnesota are immigrants. I
come from a Polish heritage, second generation. A lot of folks.
But education, jobs, the economy, only one part of it. The
other part is also understanding the American criminal justice
system, understanding our culture, and for us to understand
what they bring to the table. We have worked extremely hard on
this. It is not easy. It is about those long-term trust and
relationships that we are working every day to build.
Mr. Chabot. Thank you.
And just to follow up and I am almost out of time here. As
Chairman now of the Small Business Committee and having served
on that Committee and this one for 19 years now, and I am all
for job creation and getting this economy moving and we can do
that by lessening the regulations on small businesses and
reforming the tax code and a whole range of things, but anybody
that thinks that a job program is going to go a long way toward
solving our problem with these radicalized folks in this
country or over there, I think that is not a very correct way
of thinking about this. I mean these people are deadly serious.
They have a job and that is beheading people and torturing
people and, you know, their mentality is, you know, convert or
die and we got to defeat them.
Thank you.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers.
Mr. Conyers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to commend the testimony we have heard here today
from these gentlemen and it is, to me, very important that I
compliment Sheriff Stanek because you anticipated the very set
of questions I was going to put to someone that is right there
on the ground as to how do you interact and relate to people of
a different faith, many of whom are very nervous about elected
officials and law enforcement officials particularly. And
yours, that you have discussed here today and the interaction
that you have made, not only with the community but what the
leaders of their community, are extremely critical. And I think
it is a step-by-step instruction manual for local law
enforcement officials everywhere in this country to follow.
Are there any considerations about this part of our
discussion here today that you would like to add to?
Sheriff Stanek. Mr. Chairman and Congressman Conyers, you
are absolutely correct and thank you very much.
The men and women who work in my Sheriff's Office as well
as my partner law enforcement agencies in Minnesota really
appreciate that. In fact, as you know, Minnesota, the
Minneapolis areas, was selected as one of the three pilot
cities across the U.S., in Boston, Los Angeles, and
Minneapolis, to share what we learned. Unfortunately, we
learned as a result of some, you know, tragic incidents with
Douglas McCain and Shirwa Ahmed but we fully intend on helping
our local law enforcement partners understand what we can do.
Race, ethnicity, gender have not place in terms of policing. We
treat everybody equally and, like I said, we not only respect,
we protect the civil rights and liberties.
Mr. Conyers. Well, that is what I think we need to get out
because there is an understandable dichotomy between people of
different faiths and religions relating to law enforcement and
elected officials. And I think you have set the pace for how it
ought to be done. And I hope that we can somehow get,
incorporate, your experiences into messages that we here in
Washington, all the members of the Federal legislature, get out
all of the people in our country.
Director Steinbach, I am, with respect to the threat posed
by the Islamic State and other terrorist organizations, you
state that the FBI along with our local, state, and Federal
partners is utilizing all investigative techniques and methods
to combat the threat these individuals may pose to the United
States. Now, when you say Federal partners, do you include the
Department of Homeland Security?
Mr. Steinbach. Yes, sir.
Mr. Conyers. Well, I noticed that in your testimony on
February the eleventh before Homeland Security, you referred
specifically and explicitly to that. Isn't that correct?
Mr. Steinbach. I am going to leave that to you--I assume
so, sir. I can't recall.
Mr. Conyers. Well, I can help you. You did.
Mr. Steinbach. Okay.
Mr. Conyers. But you didn't mention that today. And, as you
know, in very shortly we are going to be out of funding for
that. Do you have any recommendations or views about the
funding of the Department of Homeland Security?
Mr. Steinbach. No, sir. I will not comment on that.
Mr. Conyers. How come?
Mr. Steinbach. Sir, I think it is a political question and
I am going to stay out of that. My job as the Assistant
Director of Counterterrorism is to lead the FBI efforts in
counterterrorism.
Mr. Conyers. Well, I tried.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentleman from Idaho, Mr. Labrador.
Mr. Labrador. Thank you very much. And I want to thank both
of you for being here today. I want to thank you for your
service and for the good work you are doing for the people of
the United States and in your communities.
Mr. Steinbach, in your written testimony you mention that
ISIL's online program propaganda efforts is a threat to Western
interests. How is the FBI approaching spread of ISIL's online
presence?
Mr. Steinbach. So I think it is not just the FBI, it is the
whole of government including state and local partners like the
Sheriff here. We have to approach it from a counter messaging
perspective where we look to counter violent extremists efforts
at the local level in particular, like the Sheriff mentioned, a
larger counter messaging narrative, and then, of course, we
have to look at from an investigative point-of-view, from an
intelligence collecting point-of-view. Find out where they are
at and be where they are at in social media and on the
Internet.
Mr. Labrador. Sheriff, what are you doing at the local
level to counter the, especially the propaganda that is on the
Internet?
Sheriff Stanek. Well, Mr. Chairman and Congressman
Labrador, you know, we try and change the narrative of this
propaganda. Like I said, it is not the first time the Mall of
America, an iconic institution, happens to be located in
Minnesota, has been mentioned. We go to the community itself
and help empower them. We look to the young people like the
organization called Ka Joog, Muhammad Farah and others were out
here last week with us, where Imam Roble and the religious
leaders or some of the business people like Mr. Bihi and others
who every day are out in the community. They are reflective of
the community and they work with local law enforcement to help
change that narrative, help the young people understand,
talking with the moms, the Somali mothers of these young men
and women who for some reason choose, like I said, to be
radicalized, maybe go overseas, maybe act out here, but we work
with them. It is not easy. Like I said, it is a long-term
trusted relationship, it is not just a conversation, it is a
discussion we come back to the table time and time and time
again.
Mr. Labrador. Thank you.
Mr. Steinbach, we know that the problems we had in
Brooklyn, that the persons who were arrested were not American
citizens, they were legal permanent residents. Is that correct?
Mr. Steinbach. Yes, sir.
Mr. Labrador. Now, are we finding that most of our problems
are with non-citizens, with people that are here illegally, or
are you finding more problems with actual young kids who were
born in the United States?
Mr. Steinbach. So I think an interesting fact on some of
the individuals that we investigate for support to ISIL is the
lack of a singular profile. We find citizens, legal permanent
resident aliens, some folks that are overstaying their VISA.
There is actually quite a diversity of those individuals who,
for one reason or another, stated an intent to harm the United
States.
Mr. Labrador. So do you think this is a growing threat? Do
you think that the Brooklyn situation is representative of a
growing threat of the United States?
Mr. Steinbach. I believe that it is a good example of what
the threat looks like which is individuals who perhaps began
their intellectual curiosity looking online, at some point were
radicalized before, but became more radicalized online, focused
their efforts to do something to travel overseas. If they can't
travel overseas, to conduct an attack on the U.S. We are seeing
that play more and more often. So I would say it is probably a
good cross section of some of the cases we have.
Mr. Labrador. Are you finding a growing threat also of
people coming from Western Europe and other areas to the United
States who have these radicalized ideas?
Mr. Steinbach. So I don't if it is a growing threat. I
don't know if we see an uptick in Western Europeans coming to
the United States to conduct an attack or do some type of
operation. Again, it is a cross section of individuals, those
who have been born and raised in the United States, those that
are first generation residents, legal permanent residents,
those who have come in and have overstayed their VISA. It
really is a lack of a profile on their status that is
remarkable in this threat.
Mr. Labrador. How do you think we can then combat that? Do
you have any suggestions for us here in Congress about some
things that we should be doing and thinking about?
Mr. Steinbach. If I were to comment on one area where I
think we are most concerned about as an organization, as an
intelligence community, it is on the idea of ``Going Dark''
which I think I mentioned in my testimony.
So there are essentially three paradigm shifts. After 9/11,
the Internet, and this third paradigm shift being social media.
And the ability of sympathizers, recruits, to use social media
effectively is a concern for us. And the concern is that, with
the number of social media companies, with encryption, we are
continuing to ``Go Dark'' both as a law enforcement community,
as an intelligence community. So I would ask Congress to look
seriously toward updating CALEA and laws and legislation to
allow us to lawfully intercept. When we have got the right
through the FSK or through the criminal courts to intercept
communication content, I would ask that we receive help from
Congress to go down that road. It is a concern, and we continue
to lose more and more ability to see the content lawfully.
Mr. Labrador. Thank you.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentle woman from California, Ms. Chu.
Ms. Chu. Sheriff Stanek, the countering violent extremism
program is designed in part to encourage individuals to provide
law enforcement with information deemed suspicious or
predictive of violent extremism. I have heard from the Muslim
American community who have concerns that the program is
largely focused on them and that it can be stigmatizing, can
lead to distrust between the American Muslim community and law
enforcement. As someone who has worked directly on these
issues, could you share your approach to building trust and
ensuring that your community is safe or minorities are not
isolated? And, could you also describe law enforcement to
practices that have not worked in the past?
Sheriff Stanek. Yeah. Mr. Chairman and Congresswoman Chu,
thank you very much for that question.
You are correct. Countering Violent Extremism, CVE, is
different that Community Engagement Techniques, CET. And so we
do not mix the two. You cannot, shall not, mix the two. If
members of the Diaspora community think that your community
engagement techniques are not nothing more than a front for
intelligence gathering to counter violent extremism, that is a
problem. You get at countering violent extremism by building
strong relationships in the community through community
engagement techniques. And I want to be clear about that.
Again, the strategy that local law enforcement uses is akin
to community anointed policing concepts like we use with gangs
and other things as we have fought them across this country.
And they are age-old, tried and true techniques and practices
in which local law enforcement works every day with those
communities to help them understand, and, like I said earlier,
to help empower them to do for themselves and be responsive to
local law enforcement.
Ms. Chu. Thank you for that.
And, Director Steinbach, what steps are the FBI taking to
ensure that the CVE programs do not stigmatize Islam or single
out Muslim Americans?
Mr. Steinbach. I think the Sheriff alluded to it best,
ma'am.
Community Countering Violent Extremism is best left to the
local level. I shouldn't be sitting here in D.C. dictating how
Sheriff Stanek is going to involve his community in that
outreach and that program. We need to, at the Federal
Government level, empower them but push it down to the
community level, which is why I think you saw last week Los
Angeles, Boston, and Minneapolis come and kind of lay out their
models. I think each model has to be individually tailored
based on the needs of the community.
But I really think that CVE efforts needs to be pushed out
to the local level, much like DARE. Let the community, not only
the police, but community centers, religious institutions, the
schools, they have to be intimately involved. They are the best
place to handle that.
Ms. Chu. Okay, thank you.
Sheriff, 2 weeks ago in North Carolina, three young
American Muslims were murdered execution style by a neighbor
who, it is widely documented, expressed deeep hatred of Muslims
as well as other religions. As you might imagine, there are
many people in this country who have formed bigoted views of
all Muslims as a result of ISIL. In fact, after 9/11 the number
of anti-Muslim hate crimes increased nearly 500-fold. And in
the year since, annual hate crimes have hovered in the 100 to
150 range; about five times higher than the pre-9/11 rate. What
steps are being taken to ensure that hate crimes against
American Muslims do not occur?
Sheriff Stanek. Yeah. Mr. Chair and Congresswoman, we work
extensively with the Department of Homeland Security and the
Office of Civil Rights and Liberties, reaching out to our
Muslim community helping them understand what their rights are,
where to complain.
We just dealt with a mosque in one of our local
communities. They wanted to build a mosque. That suburban
community said no, for whatever reason it was. We followed up
with the United States Attorney. He was very bold, he was very
straightforward. He sued that local community to help them have
a better understanding, I think, of what it means for religious
freedom and to be able to do what they want to do within the
bounds of law.
That mosque is now--the groundbreaking is next week. I will
be attending proudly representing local law enforcement. That
is a great example of doing things the right way for the right
reason and not discriminating.
Ms. Chu. Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Gohmert [presiding]. The gentle lady yields back.
This time the Chair yields to the gentleman from Texas,
Judge Poe.
Mr. Poe. Appreciate the Chairman.
Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.
As the Chairman indicated, I used to be a criminal court
judge in Texas and a prosecutor. I just give you that by way of
background in the criminal justice area.
A hundred and fifty Americans have traveled abroad,
recruited by ISIS. How were they recruited?
Mr. Steinbach. I am sorry, sir?
Mr. Poe. How were they recruited? The so-called 150 that
have been radicalized and gone abroad, how were they recruited?
Mr. Steinbach. So not 150 have traveled abroad. That is our
category. So that includes a bucket of those who have tried to
travel, those who have been killed, those who have been
arrested. But broadly, that 150ish number, I would say there is
a variety of means. If I had to categorize one method over the
other, I would say the Internet or social media probably ranks
highest, but there is also friends and associates. But I would
say the Internet and social media probably is the overriding.
Mr. Poe. Would you agree with that, Sheriff?
Sheriff Stanek. You know, Mr. Chairman and Congressman, I
do. That, as well as I think extended families. A lot of folks
in my community, again, maybe we are just a little bit
different because I have got that large Somalia population, but
a lot of them, a lot of them have extended family back in
around the Horn of Africa.
Mr. Poe. I want to specifically talk about ISIS and other
foreign terrorist organizations. With that label that we give
them, not a terrorist that somebody may just say, ``Well, that
is a terrorist out there in the fruited plain.'' But
specifically, foreign terrorist organizations and ISIS and
their recruitment.
The Section 219 of the Immigration Nationality Act states
that ``It is unlawful to provide a designated foreign terrorist
organization with material support or resources including
property tangible or intangible or services.'' I'm sure you
have heard that, read that before.
Twitter seems to be one of the avenues of social media
where individuals are radicalized or recruited through public
Twitter sites. I am not talking about the private chatter. I am
talking about the public. And they use propaganda, recruitment,
and they raise money on Twitter. Would both of you weigh-in on
the obligation of Twitter if any, in your opinion--I'm asking
your opinion, not a legal opinion, of being more proactive on
taking down those sites? After all, you just said they had been
recruited by social media and that is just one of the many
others; Facebook and YouTube seem to be a fairly good job of
taking down those individual sites. Would both of you briefly
weigh-in on that issue?
Mr. Steinbach. Yes, sir.
So we have engaged Twitter. We have spent lots of time
discussing with Twitter our concerns but I think we need to be
careful that--because what we do see is, like you said,
individuals engaging in the public arena on Twitter and other
social media accounts, but then they do very quickly take their
conversations into private chat.
So on the public forums, or in the public arena, we see
just conversation, First Amendment conversations, if you would
like. So I would be hesitant to dictate to Twitter how to
conduct its business. Now, we do have conversations with them
and when it is appropriate we explain to them the threat and we
would hope that, by the terms of their service agreement, they
would then remove those posts. But for the most part, from my
experience, what you see is individuals who quickly take the
conversation offline to an encryption device or some other
means to really discuss plans and really discuss those things
that we would use to charge somebody with material support.
Mr. Poe. Okay. I am about out of time so let me try to sum
up just on this one issue.
Foreign terrorist organizations, though, are not--we are
not permitted to help foreign terrorist organizations under the
code that I just read to you. We would never allow ISIS to take
out an ad in the Washington Post recruiting folks to go to
Syria, radicalize, and come back and kill us. We wouldn't allow
that to occur. Why? Because that would be aiding. To me, that
would be violation of this statute. Statute does require, I am
not talking about where we can disagree whether or not the
recruiting. I am talking about open, obvious site of
recruitment. Does the FBI, on occasions, recommend that Twitter
take down that specific site?
Mr. Steinbach. No, sir, we don't.
Mr. Poe. So you don't make that recommendation to Twitter?
Mr. Steinbach. No. What we do is if we see a site of
interest, we provide them some type of process to start
monitoring that site. Now, in many cases----
Mr. Poe. They monitor it, or you monitor it?
Mr. Steinbach. We request through legal process or through
2702, we request that we get access to stored content, current
content, and then in many cases what ends up happening is,
Twitter then voluntarily takes it down. But we don't----
Mr. Poe. All right.
Mr. Steinbach [continuing]. Specifically ask to take down a
site.
Mr. Poe. Okay. So you don't make that request. You let them
make that decision on their own.
One more question if I may, Mr. Chairman?
The three individuals or four that were apparently arrested
today, Coney Island, through public news sources, states that
the information to find out who these individuals were was
through confidential informants. I am not asking you to comment
on that.
Confidential informants, as the term is used, is still one
of the best ways, is it not, to find out who people are who are
committing crimes not just in terrorism but any type of crimes
in the community? Would you agree with that or not? Either one
of you.
Mr. Steinbach. Absolutely.
Mr. Poe. Sheriff?
Sheriff Stanek. Oh yes, sir. We encourage it. Like you
said, the ``See Something, Say Something'' campaign is akin to
that as well.
Mr. Poe. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, all.
Mr. Gohmert. The gentleman's time has expired.
Now recognize the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Richmond,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Richmond. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to the
witnesses and we had a Homeland Security meeting going on at
the same time, and I think that the protection of the homeland
is very important to everybody and it has us scattering today.
Let me ask just a basic question. And, Mr. Steinbach, or
Sheriff, you may have some insight. But, as you all deal and
interact with ISIL, ISIS, IS, however you want to call it or
the people involved in it, do you all have a sense of the
endgame or what they perceive to be the win? And I ask that
question because it helps me to understand, you know, how we
deal with them in terms of homegrown terrorism and so forth.
So, Mr. Steinbach, do you have a sense of that?
Mr. Steinbach. Yes, sir.
I think ISIL has been pretty outspoken in its plan to
reestablish the caliphate. If you look at some of their open
source information, the caliphate extends well past Syria and
Iraq, it goes into Northern Africa, it goes north. So I think
that is their stated intent. And so, when they look to recruit,
they look to recruit lots of individuals, foreign fighters,
professionals, to come to the caliphate to help establish that
caliphate. And, if you can't come to the caliphate, attack the
West.
Sheriff Stanek. Mr. Chairman and Congressman Richmond, I
absolutely concur. I think that is, I mean, that is the answer.
That is what they seek from us or to do to us.
Mr. Richmond. And I guess, in some of my reading and in it,
I guess I was looking for the ultimate win and I don't know if
it is the plan for the apocalypse or the end of the world or
whatever, but part of that becomes then, what message are they
using in terms of social media to people in the United States
to get them excited about getting involved in this? So, is it
true, just a push on the religion?
Mr. Steinbach. Well, I think they have a very effective
message. So, you know, perhaps previous groups like al-Qaeda
identified the caliphate in years or decades to come.
Mr. Richmond. Right.
Mr. Steinbach. ISIL has said the caliphate is now. Bring
your family to the Islamic state now. And that is a fundamental
difference. So it is a message that is resonating with a lot of
individuals. And then, when you get online to some of these
places, they describe a community, which is a false narrative
of course, but they describe a community with schools and
infrastructure and support services that I think younger and
younger folks find attractive. And, again I will emphasize,
that is a false narrative.
Mr. Richmond. And I think that is a consistent with
everything that I have read, that they pushed, that there is
free healthcare, there is free schooling, and that your food
and everything will be provided for you, but if you still want
to work and do exceedingly well. You can and, you know, to the
extent we can, and to what extent have we made sure that we get
the information out there that this is not true, that it is all
propaganda--intended to suck you into the cause and to get you
involved, but it is absolutely not true.
And I have not seen that message out there as much as I
have seen the opposite message.
Mr. Steinbach. So I think you are right, sir. We have an
effective counter narrative, but the volume, the sheer volume,
we are losing the battle; to the amount of use of social media
and other Internet-based activities eclipses our effort.
Sheriff Stanek. Mr. Chairman and Congressman, I think you
are absolutely right, though. That counter narrative is really
important and that is what we do when we counter violent
extremism in our local community. When we reach out and work
with the Diaspora community, they do it for us. We empower
them. Like I said on, you know, Sunday afternoon, Sunday
evening, after this video comes out about Mall of America and
ISIL, the community itself responds. They didn't do that years
ago. We have empowered them to be able to do that and work with
them.
Mr. Richmond. Which is a great, I guess, probably last
question is, how do we as a Congress and as a government
empower them and include them more in helping us to fight
something where we are at an adherent disadvantage as a
government, as a traditional FBI or law enforcement, where
minorities are so underrepresented? How do we expand the
umbrella to help empower these and that faith religion to help
us with this because they share our same interest and they want
our same result, which is to defeat ISIS? So how do we include
them?
And, Mr. Chairman, after that answer I yield back.
Sheriff Stanek. Mr. Chairman, can I answer that question?
Mr. Gohmert. Yes, please.
Sheriff Stanek. Thank you very much.
Mr. Gohmert. Both of you, if you wish, may answer the
question; sure.
Sheriff Stanek. Congressman, I think you are absolutely
right again. But, you know, should this Committee ever choose
to get out of D.C., instead of you home districts, come visit
me in Minnesota. I would be happy to sit down with you at the
Safari Restaurant on 31st and 4th Avenue South, in the heart of
the Somali community. Meet Abdi Warsame, a Minneapolis elected
city council member, meet a member of the Minnesota
legislature, the first one elected in the country. Meet the
school board members who are Somalian Americans. Understand
that they are working really hard and now they have moved on
and now they are representing their community in the very
venues like we do, like you do.
I think that is really important. And I encourage you, if
you ever get a chance, call me. I would be happy to sit down
and have a meal with you at the Safari Restaurant or somewhere
else.
Mr. Steinbach. And I strongly couldn't top that. I think
the Sheriff is right. It is his efforts and the efforts of
police officials and sheriffs around the country that need to
be leading the way in this counter messaging effort. They know
their communities much better than I do and I wouldn't pretend
to take lead in that. I expect and it is happy to see
individuals like this sheriff to take lead in that and make
effective use of that outreach.
Mr. Gohmert. All right. Thank you. The gentleman's time has
now expired.
The Chair now recognizes a gentleman from Michigan, Mr.
Bishop, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Bishop. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I'd like to take
the opportunity to thank both of you for being here today. It
is refreshing to see the collaboration that goes on between
local and Federal departments.
I am from the Detroit area, Oakland County, Michigan. Home
of Mike Bouchard, who was our sheriff and has done a similar
job in establishing a relationship with the Federal agencies in
the Detroit area. And I am grateful for that because they are
building the same kind of relationships. I was just briefed by
the FBI in Detroit and they are doing a fantastic job.
In an area, we are a border community, we are a number of
races, religions; it is a melting pot in our community. So it
is a fulltime job in building relationships, and law
enforcement has done a great job.
I mention that because ISIL controls a large swath of
territory in Eastern Syria and Northern Iraq, and there are
seven Nations that border Iraq and Syria including Iran and
Lebanon. And near as I can figure, that is seven different exit
points and entry points. And I am wondering if you can comment,
I guess specifically to the director, do you have relationships
with these foreign Nations the same as you have with your local
law enforcement that help coordinate your efforts?
Mr. Steinbach. So I wanted to say, just the FBI alone, the
intelligence community, the U.S. government, has robust
relationships with neighboring countries, Western allies, and
that relationship has become all the more important as the
world is shrunk in this speed with which information must be
shared is needed. So, yes.
Mr. Bishop. Thank you.
I want to go back to this ``Going Dark'' issue that you
raised earlier. I didn't think you had enough time to expound
upon that. As a former prosecutor myself, I understand the
importance of information and having the opportunity to gain
access to certain information. But I also understand the civil
libertarians out there are concerned about how that information
is accessed and the process by which you are to access it. We
hear a lot of talk about Section 2702 and all these legalisms
that are out there. But can you explain to folks generally
speaking how you obtain this information and the fact that you
just don't have open access to that information?
Mr. Steinbach. Yes, sir. I would be happy to.
So I think it is important to note what we are talking
about is not obtaining additional authorities, expanding
authorities, but being able to use those existing authorities
we have. So with the telecommunication and social media
companies, the Internet companies, as they increase their
technology, we don't have the ability to go in with the same
legal authorities we have always had to obtain content. Whether
that is a criminal investigation for child pedophiles or gangs
or organized crime or terrorism. We are talking about going
with a lawful court order, on the national security side of the
house, that will be the FSK or, if we are talking about through
the criminal side, through the courts, with a court order
signed by a magistrate that would allow us lawfully to see that
content.
We are not talking about looking in obtaining additional
authorities or expanding our reach. We are talking about that
same ability we have always had. And I will say that we are
losing that ability. If you look at the numbers in a classified
setting, we can talk more, but we are getting further and
further away from that ability, that lawful ability that we are
asking for.
Mr. Bishop. Tell me, just so the public understands, what
threshold that you have to show to gain access, to get that
court order for example, to do what you need to do?
Mr. Steinbach. So we have to go to a court, either the FISC
or to a magistrate in the criminal courts or at the state level
or at the Federal level, and show cause. So probable cause as
to why, provide and affidavit that lays out the facts that
shows why we believe it is important and necessary toward the
investigation to look at that either that stored content in the
search, or look at the ongoing content.
Mr. Bishop. And a warrant is not issued unless there is an
established probable cause based on the evidence you presented
and the testimony you presented; correct?
Mr. Steinbach. Correct.
Mr. Bishop. Very quickly. There are three amendments to the
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act which will be expiring on
June 1, 2015, including Section 206 and 215 of the USA Patriot
Act. Can you tell me how the expiration of these authorities
would impact the FBI's ability to conduct investigations?
Mr. Steinbach. I think it would have a negative
implication. We use those tools responsibly, but we use them to
identify those individuals that have stated an intent to
conduct a terrorist attach or support a foreign terrorist
organization. And if those tools, those lawful tools, expire,
it will limit our ability to do our jobs.
Mr. Bishop. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Gohmert. Thank you.
This time, I will recognize myself for 5 minutes.
I appreciate you being here, your testimony. I am still
confused after these years over communication problems within
our homeland security. I wasn't here when homeland security
department was created but, since I have been here at times, it
seems like it has created more bureaucracy to get through in
trying to get messages to and from the different departments
that are affected.
I was curious. I had seen an article today, in Breitbart,
about U.S. Customs and Border Protection and special agents
with U.S. Immigration Custom Enforcement. Homeland Security
Investigations got a tip about a large shipment of marijuana,
it has resulted in finding a tunnel in a home in Arizona and it
had a hydraulic lift coming up from the tunnel. They are saying
4,700 pounds of marijuana were found. And I am curious, the
article indicates that a significant number of the finds of
tunnels don't come from detecting tunnels.
Mr. Steinbach, are you familiar with efforts to try to
locate tunnels that might be going across our border? I know it
normally effects more the DEA but, ever since I read the Tom
Clancy novel where, yeah, where the drug tunnels ended up being
hired out by cartels, actually the Middle Eastern terrorists, I
wondered if that isn't a possibility if some of our enemies are
as smart as Tom Clancy was. Are you consulted? Does
counterterrorism division look at those issues at all?
Mr. Steinbach. We do, sir. And I think you break it down
between known threats and vulnerabilities. So the southwest
border would certainly be a vulnerability. So part of our job
is working with the rest of the intelligence community, again,
with the locals in that area, to discuss and research what
potential vulnerabilities are out there that not only would be
used by a drug cartel but could also be exploited by a foreign
terrorist organization.
So we have a process. We work with our partners through the
JTTFs, through the fusion centers, make sure that stuff like
that, information like that, is spread horizontally across the
infrastructure so that my folks in counterterrorism with a
counterterrorism slant can look at it, the Sheriff's folks can
take a look at it from local law enforcement. Really, the key
is having an infrastructure set up so that the fusion centers,
the JTTFs, have a robust information sharing process so that
when stuff pops up across the spectrum of the 17,000 state and
local and tribal agencies that it is quickly pushed to where it
needs to go.
Mr. Gohmert. You bring up the fusion centers. I had heard
from some of our law enforcement that, gee, it has now become a
one-way street, the feds want us to give them our information
but we can't get information back from them.
Sheriff, how has your communication been in the last few
months with the fusion center? Have you had any success in
getting information from the Federal authorities?
Sheriff Stanek. Yeah, Mr. Chairman, you raise a good point
as well. Some of that relies on individual states and your
criminal intelligence sharing laws. Like, in my state, I am not
allowed to share that information between Federal and local law
enforcement. Many other states, it is some patchwork of local
state laws.
However, we have a good relationship with our fusion
center. Just on Sunday afternoon, we received a joint
information bulletin from the FBI, from the Department of
Homeland Security, talking about the Mall of America and this
video that I referenced earlier. That is information we need.
It was timely, it was accurate, it was to the point, and it
helped us prepare or better prepare.
Mr. Gohmert. And actually, you bring up, Mr. Steinbach, the
issue of vulnerabilities. I had seen an article, February
fourteenth, again Breitbart reported, that the border patrol
agents catch Middle Eastern man sneaking into Texas and that is
the most I had seen reported. But my sources indicate that
actually he was from Iraq, he spoke fluent Russian, and that
supposedly all he would say about his occupation is that he
trained people. Does your counterterrorism division get word
when people like that from countries where there is radical
Islam at play, do you get word when those type of situations
arise? Do you get a chance to question someone like--
Mr. Steinbach. Yes, sir.
So I would say, going back to the fusion center piece, just
to kind of show that type, we have over 100 agents and analysts
sitting in fusion centers. We have got 57 of our fusion centers
have access to FBI databases sitting there. That information
starts generically at the local level and is pushed to us.
So in the case of the gentleman you are talking about, that
would be classified as a ``special interest alien.'' Those
individuals coming from countries of concern that need greater
scrutiny to look towards, you know, what are their true
motivations and intentions for trying to sneak across the
border.
Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Did you know about this particular Iraqi
individual that trains people that speaks Russian?
Mr. Steinbach. I, myself, did not personally.
Mr. Gohmert. Okay. All right.
Well--yes?
Ms. Jackson Lee. May I? I have just----
Mr. Gohmert. I yield to the gentle lady from Texas.
You and I are the only ones left, so certainly. I doubt
that since I would object that there is any other objection. So
unanimous consent, you may.
Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman is very kind. First, my
appreciation to the Chairman for his steady line of
questioning. We have worked together on a number of issues. And
then, my appreciation. Mr. Chairman, I think you were here when
I noted that Sheriff Stanek was here last week and was quick to
accept our response, or our invitation to come back again to
Washington. We know we might love it, and I am smiling with
that, but we know that our visitors have work at home and we
appreciate that.
We thank Mr. Steinbach for his years of service.
So let me just have these quick questions. I ask a question
about women and the increasing recruitment of women and their
adherence to extremism which has made a very big point in our
meetings last week. So I want to make sure of that there is a
different approach to how men are recruited and sometimes a
different approach to women even though the practice is
empowerment, excitement. Have you begun to look at that
distinctiveness of the recruitment of women?
Sheriff Stanek?
Sheriff Stanek. Yeah, Mr. Chairman and Congresswoman, we
have. In fact, I have had several conversation with a young
Somali woman in Minnesota, very active, named Fartun Weli who
serves on the sheriff's community advisory board. She is very
engaged with the community. In addition, we meet roundtable of
Somali women. Like I said, many of them are moms and they
understand what is happening with their young people and what
is driving and motivating them. They are the key at the end of
the day to a lot of our outreach efforts with the community
itself.
Ms. Jackson Lee. So I will finish with Mr. Steinbach, but
my final question to you is: You have been in law enforcement
for 32 years and you were obviously serving during the heinous
acts of 9/11, do you feel that we are better communicators and
exchangers of information and intelligence today between local
and state and Federal than we were pre-9/11 or 9/11?
Sheriff?
Sheriff Stanek. Yeah, Mr. Chairman and Congresswoman, I
absolutely do.
You know, there was a time when we would have been at
opposite ends of this table. Not anymore. Federal law
enforcement agencies like the FBI and DHS are full partners
with local law enforcement. I represent the Nation's sheriffs.
I was impressed that the congressman knew Sheriff Bouchard who
is my mentor, Sheriff Garcia from your county, and many of the
others who serve here. We do it for the right reason every day,
but we work hand-in-hand with our Federal partners. We may be
the boots on the ground but we can not do it alone. We need
what they have and they have been very willing, whether it is
Director Mueller or Director Comey, to come to the table and
provide that to us.
Thank you.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Steinbach, I will finish the
courtesies of the Chairman, first of all, thank you very much,
Sheriff. First of all, to say that I would hope that if
Congress gives Federal law enforcement more tools, such as for
example, a thorough watch list and the no-fly list that we seek
to make sure that it is thorough that that would be a helpful
tool, even as it may be a large number or small number but
always to be accurate, is a helpful tool. Is that not correct,
Mr. Steinbach?
Mr. Steinbach. Yes, ma'am. Of course. I think the more
tools you can provide us, the better we are able to do our job.
When you consider the evolving threat and the changing nature,
I think the more tools are more important for us.
Ms. Jackson Lee. I appreciate that.
Then, I would just ask you this simple question. I think
you were certainly serving this country pre-9/11 and now you
are continuing to serve the country. Would you say that the
communication between all levels of law enforcement around this
rising and increasing threat of terrorism is much better than
it was when we couldn't follow the dots of a memo on a desk in,
I believe, it was Minneapolis that did not connect the dots of
individuals learning to take off and not land? Are we at a
better point?
Mr. Steinbach. I would say we are absolutely in a better
place. And I will give you an example. From my perspective is,
I don't have responsibilities necessarily for Minneapolis or
Minnesota, yet I have met Sheriff Stanek on numerous occasions.
We are not strangers. This is not the first time we have met. I
have been at the major county sheriffs and major city chiefs.
We have had interactions and we have a very robust
relationship.
I think the JTTF process is the right balance of pushing
and we have learned as we have gone. Certainly, we have made
mistakes but we continue to improve. I would say that our
information sharing process is better than it has ever been.
And I would challenge us that we need to continue to not only
share but share real-time, at the speed of light----
Ms. Jackson Lee. I agree.
Mr. Steinbach [continuing]. Because that is how quickly the
information has to get passed.
Ms. Jackson Lee. My last point: Would you reaffirm that the
outreach tactics, relationships, with these unique communities,
in this instance the Somalian community but there is the large
populations in places like Michigan and elsewhere, Texas, is
important and are you tune-in to the new element of extremism
among women, particularly women that can be attracted to the
fight with ISIL?
Mr. Steinbach. Yes, ma'am. That tool is invaluable.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Pardon me?
Mr. Steinbach. That tool is invaluable. You know, when you
look into radicalization, it is a spectrum. It starts with
someone with intellectual curiosity and it drives to a point
where they have developed an intent where enforcement
disruption is necessary. But, before you get to the point where
law enforcement action is necessary through prosecution,
through deportation, there is a whole piece to that at the
local level; the sheriffs is involved in and in trying to
change that intellectual curiosity and change course of that
individual.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And women and extremism?
Mr. Steinbach. Women and extremism, it is a new phenomenon
and ISIL has taken advantage of it. They still are a minority
but they are a much larger minority than they were 2, 3 years
ago. And so, it is a new for us.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Chairman, you have been very kind. I
want to thank the Judiciary Committee and particularly this
Subcommittee for recognizing its duty and responsibility. And
the issue of extremism among young women is an issue of concern
to me and I hope that this Subcommittee and the full Committee
can look collaboratively on this unique but growing phenomenon
that has a capacity to expand and become extremely dangerous.
So I thank the gentleman for his kindness. I yield back my
time.
Mr. Gohmert. I thank the gentle lady. The issue of
communications was touched on eloquently. It brings to mind
another couple of questions I wanted to ask Mr. Steinbach.
Previously, you know, numerous times we have had Secretary
of Homeland Security here. And I have seen emails discussing,
and they were not classified, discussing Secretary Napolitano's
hands-off----
[Pause.]
Mr. Gohmert [continuing]. List in reference to someone with
known terrorist ties and that this individual, it turns out a
man with known terrorist ties, foreigner, was on the
secretary's personal hands-off list. Is your division ever
consulted over people that, I don't know if I know Secretary
Johnson has a hands-off list or not like apparently Secretary
Napolitano did, but is your division ever consulted on people
that may be put on a hands-off list by Homeland Security?
Mr. Steinbach. So I am not aware of any hands-off list. I
would say that we follow the intelligence, we follow the
evidence. So if we identify information that suggests somebody
is a member of supporting foreign terrorist organization
radicalizing, we open a predicated investigation. That is a
political move and we follow the intelligence to its logical
conclusion. If that person is supporting a foreign terrorist
organization, our job and our goal and our mission is to
disrupt.
Mr. Gohmert. Well, if someone is a member, associate of
known terrorists, member of a terrorist organization, I would
hope that your division would take notice of that. We had
Secretary Napolitano testify and I asked her about a man, a
foreigner, with--ties, a member of foreign terrorist group,
being allowed to visit the White House and she didn't know
anything about it. She said ``I can live with that as long as
somebody in Homeland Security knows about it and is vetted--''
[Pause.]
Mr. Gohmert [continuing]. The individual and we had someone
with those type ties that was cleared to visit the White House.
Is the counterterrorism division ever consulted on people who
may visit the White House who have ties to terrorist groups?
Mr. Steinbach. Anybody coming to the United States is
subject to a vetting process. The terrorist screening center,
there is a multiagency process that reviews databases to ensure
that----
Mr. Gohmert. Are you talking about people coming legally
into the United States?
Mr. Steinbach. I mean, yes, sir.
Mr. Gohmert. Okay.
Mr. Steinbach. Yes, coming legally into the United States,
there is a multiagency vetting process that reviews, to ensure
that there are no ties that would suggest him or her a threat
to the United States.
Mr. Gohmert. Okay. So from that, do you know if
counterterrorism division was consulted before a member of a
terrorist organization was allowed to visit the White House?
Mr. Steinbach. I don't know what incident you are talking
about, sir, but----
Mr. Gohmert. Okay----
[Pause.]
Mr. Steinbach. I would say that the process isn't to
contact counterterrorism it is to contact the terrorist
terrorist screening center, to go through the database checks.
We review that, we are apart of that.
Mr. Gohmert. And whose duty is it to notify you that such a
person may be coming to the White House?
Mr. Steinbach. Any individual who comes to the United
States----
Mr. Gohmert. Right.
Mr. Steinbach [continuing]. Is required to obtain a VISA,
some type of legal process to come to the United States. Once
they go to the State Department for that legal process, it
kicks in a number of checks that are automatic regardless----
Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Well now, that raises a whole other
question because I understood the FBI was, I believe it was
first the Russians notified the CIA that they had evidence or
concerns that Tsarvaev had been radicalized and when nothing
was done, as far as they could tell, they notified the FBI that
they had concerns Tsarvaev had been radicalized, of course I am
talking about the Boston Bomber. Are you now saying that
counterterrorism division would have been notified by either
the CIA or the FBI that the Russians had concerns that Tsarvaev
had been radicalized or did you guys ever take a look at
Tsarvaev before the Boston Bombing?
Mr. Steinbach. So I think it is well-known, sir, that we
opened a guardian based on information provided to us by that
foreign government. At the end of the day, when we looked at
the information, it didn't lead anywhere. And so, the guardian
was closed.
Mr. Gohmert. Were you aware of what investigation the FBI
did before you closed that?
Mr. Steinbach. Absolutely. There is a process before we
close----
Mr. Gohmert. Oh, I know. Director Mueller testified. They
didn't go to the mosque to talk--they went to the mosque but it
was under their outreach program. They never went to the mosque
that was started by convicted terrorist Alamoudi to see if
anybody there had any idea whether Tsarvaev had been
radicalized, was he reading Qaeda, was he reading things that
had been known to radicalize others? Nobody asked those
questions at the mosque he was attending. And from what we can
tell, the best we got from the FBI, they talked to the bomber
and talked to his mother, but I never was able to get any other
information that anybody else was really talked to thoroughly.
They talked to him, they talked to his mom. They say they
are not terrorists, they go to the mosque and the outreach
program, never asked about are there any terrorist-type
comments, radicalized comments, has he read milestones like
Osama bin Laden and is now thinking more radical. Apparently,
nobody asked those questions, so I am really sorry, but it
doesn't give me comfort that you would close it based on the
testimony we have had from other individuals of how little they
did to stop the Boston Bombing but we appreciate it.
And the record will be open for a period of--all Members
will have 5 legislative days to submit additional written
questions for the witnesses or additional materials for the
record. And in fairness to both of you, if you think of
something you would like to be part of the record, you would
like for the Committee to know, than please provide that within
5 days and we will include that as part of the record as well.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Gohmert. Yes?
Ms. Jackson Lee. I just want to acknowledge that I have a
group of members who are former retired law enforcement and
National Coalition of Law Enforcement Officers for Justice,
Reform and Accountability who are in the audience. I just want
to acknowledge them, the CLEO, and thank them for their
presence here today.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Gohmert. Yeah, and I know we both share not only
appreciate their presence but thank them for what they do day-
in, day-out, so thank you for being here. Hearing nothing
further, this hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
[all]