[House Hearing, 114 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] MODERNIZING APPRAISALS: A REGULATORY REVIEW AND THE FUTURE OF THE INDUSTRY ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING AND INSURANCE OF THE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION __________ NOVEMBER 16, 2016 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services Serial No. 114-111 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 26-005 PDF WASHINGTON : 2018 ____________________________________________________________________ For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office, Internet:bookstore.gpo.gov. Phone:toll free (866)512-1800;DC area (202)512-1800 Fax:(202) 512-2104 Mail:Stop IDCC,Washington,DC 20402-001 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES JEB HENSARLING, Texas, Chairman PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina, MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking Vice Chairman Member PETER T. KING, New York CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York EDWARD R. ROYCE, California NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma BRAD SHERMAN, California SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas BILL POSEY, Florida WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri MICHAEL G. FITZPATRICK, STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts Pennsylvania DAVID SCOTT, Georgia LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia AL GREEN, Texas BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin SEAN P. DUFFY, Wisconsin KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota ROBERT HURT, Virginia ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado STEVE STIVERS, Ohio JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut STEPHEN LEE FINCHER, Tennessee JOHN C. CARNEY, Jr., Delaware MARLIN A. STUTZMAN, Indiana TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina BILL FOSTER, Illinois RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois DANIEL T. KILDEE, Michigan DENNIS A. ROSS, Florida PATRICK MURPHY, Florida ROBERT PITTENGER, North Carolina JOHN K. DELANEY, Maryland ANN WAGNER, Missouri KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona ANDY BARR, Kentucky JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio KEITH J. ROTHFUS, Pennsylvania DENNY HECK, Washington LUKE MESSER, Indiana JUAN VARGAS, California DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona FRANK GUINTA, New Hampshire SCOTT TIPTON, Colorado ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas BRUCE POLIQUIN, Maine MIA LOVE, Utah FRENCH HILL, Arkansas TOM EMMER, Minnesota Shannon McGahn, Staff Director James H. Clinger, Chief Counsel Subcommittee on Housing and Insurance BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri, Chairman LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia, Vice EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri, Ranking Chairman Member EDWARD R. ROYCE, California NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri BILL POSEY, Florida AL GREEN, Texas ROBERT HURT, Virginia GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin STEVE STIVERS, Ohio KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota DENNIS A. ROSS, Florida JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio ANDY BARR, Kentucky DANIEL T. KILDEE, Michigan KEITH J. ROTHFUS, Pennsylvania ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on: November 16, 2016............................................ 1 Appendix: November 16, 2016............................................ 39 WITNESSES Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Brady, Ed, Chairman of the Board, National Association of Home Builders....................................................... 11 Bunton, David S., President, the Appraisal Foundation............ 6 Garber, Bill, Director of Government and External Relations, Appraisal Institute............................................ 9 Park, James R., Executive Director, Appraisal Subcommittee....... 4 Trice, Joan N., Chief Executive Officer and Founder, Clearbox.... 8 Wagner, Jennifer S., Managing Attorney, Mountain State Justice, Inc............................................................ 12 APPENDIX Prepared statements: Brady, Ed.................................................... 40 Bunton, David S.............................................. 51 Garber, Bill................................................. 76 Park, James R................................................ 96 Trice, Joan N................................................ 116 Wagner, Jennifer S........................................... 128 Additional Material Submitted for the Record Luetkemeyer, Hon. Blaine: ``Regulatory Issues Facing the Real Estate Appraisal Profession''............................................... 143 ``A White Paper on the Federal Banking Agencies' Arbitrary and Capricious Efforts to Exempt the Vast Majority of Federal Real Estate Related Financial Transactions from Title XI of FIRREA's Appraisal Reforms''................... 177 Written statement of the National Association of REALTORS... 192 Royce, Hon. Ed: Written responses to questions for the record submitted to Ed Brady...................................................... 202 Written responses to questions for the record submitted to David S. Bunton............................................ 204 Waters, Hon. Maxine: Written responses to questions for the record submitted to Jennifer S. Wagner......................................... 212 MODERNIZING APPRAISALS: A REGULATORY REVIEW AND THE FUTURE OF THE INDUSTRY ---------- Wednesday, November 16, 2016 U.S. House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Housing and Insurance, Committee on Financial Services, Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Blaine Luetkemeyer [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. Members present: Representatives Luetkemeyer, Pearce, Posey, Ross, Barr, Rothfus, Williams; Cleaver, Velazquez, Clay, Green, and Beatty. Ex officio present: Representative Waters. Also present: Representative Sherman. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The Subcommittee on Housing and Insurance will come to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time. Today's hearing is entitled, ``Modernizing Appraisals: A Regulatory Review and the Future of the Industry.'' Before we begin, I would like to thank the witnesses for appearing before the subcommittee today. We look forward to your testimony. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes to give an opening statement. Many homeowners don't focus on appraisals until something goes wrong, or until they can't get one. It is not an area in which Congress spends much time debating or one that the media covers intently, but appraisals are one of the cornerstones of the home-buying process. Issues that impact appraisers also impact nearly every American buying or selling a home in rural and urban areas, in high- and low-income neighborhoods. These issues affect lenders, home builders, real estate professionals, and ultimately, the health of the American economy, and the manner in which appraisals are regulated merits the attention of this subcommittee. The appraisal profession has changed dramatically since the last major regulatory overhaul with passage of FIRREA in 1989. The finance mortgage system has changed, and alternative valuation methods are more advanced than ever. Yet when it comes to the regulatory regimes surrounding appraisals, it seems we are stuck in 1989. Let's do a quick overview of the system in place today, as I understand it. The Appraisal Subcommittee, a body comprised of seven Federal regulators, regulates the standards and requirements of each State appraisal board. The Appraisal Foundation, a nongovernmental entity chartered by Congress, promulgates those standards and requirements for the States, but lacks any meaningful regulatory authority. That authority lies in the States, which go through the actual process of credentialing the appraisers based on the criteria set by the Foundation. We have licensed appraisers, certified appraisers, and general-- certified general appraisers. We have appraisal management companies that act as a third party in selecting appraisers. This is not a simple regime, and it impacts homeowners. Perhaps as a result of some of this regulatory bureaucracy, the appraisal industry is experiencing a shortage that is beginning to harm the housing market. We are seeing delayed closings and increased consumer costs. This shortage is hitting rural areas particularly hard, including rural Missouri, which I am very familiar with. Today's hearing will give us an opportunity to investigate the past, present, and most importantly, the future of appraisal regulation. I personally would like to see a more State-centric model of regulation, one that cuts some of the Federal bureaucracy hovering above appraisers today. Beyond the regulation of appraisers, we should look at the current regime--what the current regime requires of lenders, builders, and home buyers. We need to examine alternative home valuation methods that employ the most modern technologies and foster greater consumer choice. We should look at the individuals who should and should not be qualified to do an appraisal and deploy resources accordingly. In rural Missouri, for example, where today there may be one appraiser for every two counties, there needs to be an alternative. We need to address this in the changing marketplace. Dodd-Frank attempted to address some of the shortcomings seen in the appraisal market, but the law's impact has not enhanced the system for appraisers, stakeholders, or most importantly, consumers. Appraisal is important. They instill confidence and guard against housing markets that could otherwise become depressed. We live in the 21st century, and the market deserves 21st- century solutions. It is long past time to examine this model regulation and find a better way. Again, I want to thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee today. I look forward to an open conversation. And the Chair now recognizes the ranking member of the subcommittee, the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, for 5 minutes for an opening statement. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are holding this hearing on the role of--that appraisals play in the housing market, and this will give us the opportunity to discuss changes that have been made to the appraisal system following the Dodd-Frank Act that went into effect in 2010. As we all know, the States are responsible for much of the regulations for the appraisal process, including the certification and licensing of appraisals, as well as the registration of appraisal management companies. The Federal Government also plays a role in a more general oversight working to create more uniform standards, and the Financial Institution Recovery Reform and Enforcement Act of 1989 originally sought to oversee appraisal standards, but many of those provisions were updated with the passage of the Dodd- Frank Act, including independent appraisal requirements and the duty to report on appraisers who violate the law, and during the housing crisis, they were many. It has been a hard 6 years since the start of the housing crisis, though this committee has spent a considerable length of time working to staunch the bleeding, and many of the wounds are still healing. The fraudulent inflation of home prices by some dishonest appraisers did, in fact, play a significant role in the housing crash, and it is imperative that we continue to impose high standards to ensure the safety and soundness of the housing market but also, to protect the honest, hardworking appraisers. During the debate over Dodd-Frank, I can remember those seats being taken by individuals who gave us horror stories about what appraisers--some appraisers were doing. But I do think that--I mean, at least I try to be careful that we don't somehow demean all appraisers. But I believe it is necessary to uphold appraisal independence to ensure that lenders operate independently from appraisers without unduly putting pressure to overinflate prices. I also have a number of questions regarding the alternative valuation methods where computer systems are used to determine the value of mortgages. While Dodd-Frank bears sole reliance on these systems, I do, in fact, have concerns that a move toward higher use of computerized modeling would be detrimental to the housing market, so I appreciate you being here today, and I look forward to becoming dialogical as the committee hearing goes on. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Luetkemeyer. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green for the balance of the time. Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the ranking member as well. I do believe that we have some room for improvement in this area, and I think that some of the things that I have heard from people who have had actual experiences are--would merit some consideration. I talk to realtors, I talk to the lenders, and I have talked to the people who actually do some of this appraising, and there appears to be space for improvement. It seems that one of the overriding concerns is a lack of an appeal process, a lack of a process that allows for a dispute to be resolved when it comes to the value of property. And another area of concern appears to be how long will an appraisal stay with the property before you can have another appraisal, assuming that you have applied for an FHA loan. Conventional loans are a little bit different from the FHA loans. These FHA loans are desired for various and sundry reasons. The hard stop on a FHA loan may not be the same as conventional, so people want the better product. But in getting the better product, they are having some concerns that I think we should look at. But I also think that as we look at these concerns, we should make sure that we don't just completely do away with some things that have been that are beneficial. This is the old baby-in-bathwater argument. I think that there are some things that are beneficial that we have to maintain and should maintain, but I do believe that in a major piece of legislation, there are opportunities to make corrections that are sometimes called "technical corrections," and I would support what the ranking member has said in terms of our desiring to be amenable to looking at some of these things, and I yield back the balance of my time. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentleman yields back. Today we welcome the testimony of Mr. James Park, executive director of the Appraisal Subcommittee; Mr. David Bunton, president of the Appraisal Foundation; Ms. Joan Trice, chief executive officer and founder of Clearbox; Mr. Bill Garber, director of government and external relations from the Appraisal Institute; Mr. Ed Brady, chairman of the board, National Association of Home Builders; and Ms. Jennifer Wagner, managing attorney, Mountain State Justice, Incorporated. You will each be recognized for 5 minutes to give an oral presentation of your testimony. And without objection, your written statement will be made a part of the record. And just to give you a little primer on the lights in front of you, green means go, yellow means you have 1 minute to wrap up with your testimony and all the questions that you see around us when we ask you, and red means time to stop. I do have the last say. So with that, Mr. Park, you are recognized for 5 minutes. Welcome. STATEMENT OF JAMES R. PARK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, APPRAISAL SUBCOMMITTEE Mr. Park. Good morning, Chairman Luetkemeyer, Ranking Member Cleaver, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you this morning. My written testimony details the history of appraisal regulation, the Appraisal Subcommittee, our current operations, and the added responsibility and authority given to the ASC through the Dodd- Frank Act. Given my limited time before you this morning, I will focus my comments on the discussion topics as requested by this subcommittee. First, regarding alternative valuation methods. This is nothing new. The GSEs, lenders, and others have been using them for many years. While technological and innovation is needed and should be encouraged, care should be taken to develop valuation techniques that do not rely solely on technology and big data, but also rely on the professional expertise provided by an appraiser. Unlike appraisals, there are no generally accepted standards for development or use of AVMs, or automated valuation models, evaluations, or hybrids. Automated tools are easily manipulated, and overreliance could lead to misleading conclusions, fraud, and abuse. Automated tools also have limited use in rural and urban areas where data is scarce or unreliable. Second, regarding the appraiser shortage. It appears that economic conditions in certain parts of the country have increased demand for appraisal services. What is not clear is the cause of these localized supply-and-demand issues, and the veracity of news reports on the topic is questionable. Part of the problem may be that many appraisers refuse to accept mortgage lending assignments due to low pay, confusing or burdensome conditions, fear of blacklisting, and a perception that lenders don't value their opinions. However, I am concerned about the lack of new entrants into the profession compared to the numbers of appraisers leaving. This has been a trend for several years now and could lead to problems in the future. In 2008, Congress passed a Housing and Economic Recovery Act, HERA, requiring FHA to only accept appraisals performed by certified appraisers and barring the use of licensed appraisers. Since HERA, many lenders have followed suit, effectively removing otherwise qualified appraisers from mortgage lending. This is a particular problem in rural markets. Third, regarding the de minimis value threshold. The Federal financial institutions regulatory agencies set the de minimis threshold with CFPB concurrence. Questions regarding the threshold should be directed to those agencies. Fourth, regarding the streamlined Federal regulatory regime, the ASC recognizes the importance of a streamlined regulatory system and has taken several steps to promote one. Details are in our written testimony. Related to other areas that could be streamlined or improved, standardize the varying requirements placed on appraisers by the GSEs, FHA, VA, Federal regulators, and lenders. Today's current cornucopia of statutes, rules, and guidelines, some of which continually change, are confusing and burdensome to all. Require the GSEs to share with appraisers data being collected from appraisal reports through the GSE's collateral portals. Modernized use of appraisals in mortgage lending allow appraisers to provide a reasonable range of values. Low-risk transactions are sometimes denied or canceled when the appraised value is just slightly below the value needed to make the deal work. Lastly, regarding replacing the current system with a State-based regulatory structure. Currently, we have an effective system that draws on the strengths of the States, private sector, and Federal Government. The system also largely relies on appraisers to regulate other appraisers. Replacing the Federal regulatory structure with a State-based regulatory system would greatly complicate, not streamline, the system. Cost to consumers and lenders would increase and unnecessarily burden the mortgage finance system as States would almost certainly implement varying laws and regulations. There are already examples of this in the States. In conclusion, throughout my career in the private sector and now in the Federal Government, I have dealt with a complicated array of Federal and State laws, regulations, and guidelines, and I can assure you that the industry seeks more standardization, not less. While the current system respects and supports States' rights, I want to impress upon you the importance of a national minimum baseline of enforceable appraisal standards and appraiser qualifications to facilitate Congress. Turning appraisal regulation back to the States would likely be counterproductive as it would increase regulatory burden and cost and likely further restrict consumer access to purchasing a home and credit, in general. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee, and I look forward to answering any questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Park can be found on page 96 of the appendix.] Chairman Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Mr. Park. Mr. Bunton, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF DAVID S. BUNTON, PRESIDENT, THE APPRAISAL FOUNDATION Mr. Bunton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Cleaver, and members of the subcommittee. The Appraisal Foundation greatly appreciates the opportunity to appear before you today and to offer our perspective on the regulation of real estate appraisers. By way of background, I've served as a senior staff member of the Foundation for the past 26 years and have the privilege of serving on the Congressional staff for a dozen years prior that. Let me just begin with a few words about who we are and what makes us different. One, we are a not-for-profit organization that was founded before the enactment of FIRREA. We are not an advocacy group or a trade association, but rather an umbrella group that represents about 100 organizations, and they range from the American Bankers Association to the Department of Veterans Affairs, from the National Association of Home Builders to the Department of Interior. Essentially an appraiser regulatory system, we are the private sector expertise. We do not have a--as the chairman pointed out, we don't have any regulatory authority, but we provide the tools to the regulatory community. For example, we set the minimal qualifications that you need to get a State credential education experience. We write the exam that is used by all 50 States in five territories, and we also are the authors of the generally recognized standards of conduct, the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice that all State-licensed and certified appraisers must adhere to. We have also been a resource to numerous Federal Government agencies, and currently have cooperative agreements with the U.S. Department of Energy and the Department of Justice. To address the points that were referenced in your invitation to testify, I would like to offer the following: We do have a very unique Federal, State, and private sector partnership that has grown and matured over the past quarter century. It is effective and operates solely on user fees paid by appraisers. There are no government-appropriated funds involved in this, and we believe this could be a model for other regulatory programs. Regarding the effectiveness of the Appraisal Subcommittee, the implementation of a rating system of the State appraiser regulatory programs and the appointment of policy level representatives to the subcommittee have been very positive steps in recent years. However, we believe there are few opportunities for improvement in its current structure. Dodd-Frank and its impact on the current regulatory system, stakeholders, and consumers. The focus on appraiser independence, the regulation of appraisal management companies, and the elimination of some predatory lending practices were all positive outcomes. However, there have been several unintended consequences of those decisions, which we look forward to discussing with you today. The de minimis threshold in Federally related transactions. According to the National Association of Realtors, the average sale price of an existing home is $230,200. The current level of the de minimis is $250,000. You can make the argument it is already too high, and we are certainly in opposition to any increase to the $500,000 level. We also believe that efforts should be made to restore the definition of what constitutes a Federally related transaction, back to what Congress originally intended when FIRREA was enacted in 1989. A shortage of appraisers. There is no question that there is currently a shortage of appraisers in certain markets. It is not a national shortage, but in certain markets, particularly in rural areas and areas that have seen an uptick in mortgage originations, there is a shortage. We have--there are several reasons for this, no one reason, and I look forward to sharing those reasons with you this morning. Appraising in the 21st century. As long as we have a collateral-based lending structure, there will always be a need to determine the underlying value of the security for a loan. While we may have entered the age of big data, the analysis of that data by a trained valuation professional has never been more important. An example for that would be what happened 9 days ago. The day before the election, we all were exposed to a great deal of very precise data, and we all learned 24 hours later, it was not accurate data. So that is an example of where--you can trust the numbers but you need some human intervention there. In conclusion, today we may hear testimony that will contain proposals that range from creation of a new large Federal bureaucracy to one that all but eliminates Federal oversight. The current Title XI real property appraiser regulatory system, while unique and not without its flaws, it has made a real positive difference over the past quarter century. It promotes consistency among the States due to the appropriate Federal oversight. It has instilled competency by ensuring that we have meaningful standards and qualifications, and a uniform national exam, none of which existed before the enactment of FIRREA, and it operates at no cost to the taxpayers, and there are no Federally appropriated funds. Appraisers have historically made a significant contribution to the safety and soundness of our financial system, and their important role will continue in the future. The catalyst for the creation of this current appraiser regulatory system was to protect the integrity of the deposit insurance fund, a need that is as strong today as it ever was. The Foundation stands ready to assist with any effort to make the current system more efficient. Again, we appreciate the opportunity to share our perspective with you, and we urge this subcommittee and all Members of Congress to continue to use the Foundation as a fair, impartial, and objective resource. Thank you very much. [The prepared statement of Mr. Bunton can be found on page 51 of the appendix.] Chairman Luetkemeyer. Mr. Bunton, you are very, very good. That was exactly 5 minutes. That is amazing. Thank you very much for your testimony. Ms. Trice, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF JOAN N. TRICE, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER AND FOUNDER, CLEARBOX Ms. Trice. Chairman Luetkemeyer, Ranking Member Cleaver, and members of the Subcommittee on Housing and Insurance, thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts regarding, ``Modernizing Appraisals: A Regulatory Review and the Future of the Industry.'' My name is Joan Trice, and I am speaking on behalf of no one in particular, but anyone who desires to uphold appraisal independence. Today, all stakeholders suffer from appraisal regulatory regime that is outmoded. The housing finance crisis shed a bright light on the systemic failures of the appraisal process. The structural flaws of the regulatory schema reveal a system whereby no one was held accountable. This illustration of the current regulatory system says it all. It should be no surprise that giventhe above diagram, that the appraisal industry is being highly scrutinized. It is entirely dysfunctional. It is time for big and bold, a plan to overhaul the system. The appraisal profession needs a single authority to take ownership of the policy, process, practice, procedures, and the people who are licensed. National licensing is needed with oversight at the State level. States must adopt a standardized process for investigation and adjudication of any disciplinary actions. Peer review and rehabilitation of the appraiser should occur at the State level. This new entity should not carry forward any of the legacy agencies that exist today. The times call for a fresh holistic solution to replace the disjointed ineffective structure that currently exists. Repeal FIRREA Title XI and replace it with this new independent agency. Independence is the cornerstone of the appraisal process. The home valuation code of conduct, and subsequently the appraisal independence requirement components of Dodd-Frank, left an indelible mark on the appraisal profession. For the last 9 years, practically every single stakeholder has done their best to avoid compliance with the appraisal independence requirements. Appraisal is truly the weak link, and our current policies and systems continue to diminish the important role that appraisers play in the housing finance ecosystem. Discussions of shortages, poor quality, cost, delayed delivery of appraisals, and the de minimis threshold are all code for efforts to diminish the role of the appraisal process. The events of the presidential election offer a cautionary tale. Big data failed, models failed, bias and lack of independence by the analysts failed. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would have you believe that they hold all the marbles. Once again, they are competing with each other by reducing appraisal requirements. This is a race to the bottom, and we have seen this movie before, and we know how it ends. Do not think for a minute you can replace appraisers with pushbutton technology. Appraising is part art and part science. Create a system whereby well-trained ethical appraisers have access to reliable data and afford them the independence to play their important role. In conclusion, if Congress is truly serious about the safety and soundness of the housing finance system, then there is only one clear path for the appraisal process to thrive. Establish a single authority over real estate appraisal. The white paper entitled, "Reengineering the Appraisal Process" I provided explores in greater detail solutions to bolster the appraisal profession. Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts on this important topic. [The prepared statement of Ms. Trice can be found on page 116 of the appendix.] Chairman Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Ms. Trice. Mr. Garber, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF BILL GARBER, DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AND EXTERNAL RELATIONS, APPRAISAL INSTITUTE Mr. Garber. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, on behalf of the largest professional association of real estate appraisers in the United States, thank you for holding this hearing. Real estate appraisal plays a critical role in the American economy by helping financial institutions conduct risk management and make safe and sound loans. Today, the number of appraisers in the United States is on the decline, and banks and real estate professionals are expressing concerns about a potential shortage of appraisers. Appraisers routinely are being buried by rules and regulations in nearly every facet of their business, from how an appraiser reports an appraisal through supervising trainees, uneven licensing requirements to licensing and registration fees passed down by clients, to mandates from Federal agencies, appraisers' professional lives have become overly complicated, more expensive, and less productive due to a dated and archaic regulatory structure that needs to be revised and updated to the reflect today's market. Real estate appraisers face a layering effect of rules and regulations that create a disincentive for potential entry into the profession, while also diminishing the profession's profitability. This is counterproductive, given that rules and regulations continue to grow in number every year. These include background checks with no Federal mandate or efficient processing system, unappealing supervisory appraiser and trainee appraiser requirements, and constantly changing rules and standards. While we appreciate the role and function of the various organizations and agencies that have been part of the appraisal regulatory structure since its beginnings in 1989, the appraiser regulatory structure today is overly complicated. The primary functions of the Appraisal Subcommittee can and should be performed more efficiently, and without perpetually taxing appraiser practitioners and users of appraisal services. And the Appraisal Foundation's role in setting standards and qualifications, a role that is carried out reasonably well, should be unimpeded by unrelated activities. In short, the continuous state of change forced on the profession can be simplified and made more accountable. As such, the Appraisal Institute believes there is a better, less complicated approach that would improve appraisal quality, reduce costs, and address fundamental concerns that are driving away appraisers from the profession. We believe that our proposed model would benefit from the combined experiences of other industries and precedents established by Congress. Specifically, we suggest that Congress modernize the appraisal regulatory structure and align it with those in the real estate and mortgage industry using a model like the Nationwide Mortgage Licensing System cooperative among State agencies. Authorizing the appraisal profession to utilize a system like the NMLS for its certification and licensing system would enable State appraiser regulatory agencies to benefit from enhanced communication with other State agencies, including those outside of appraisal such as State banking regulatory agencies. Such a realignment would also provide a common system for appraisers to submit applications for licensure in multiple States. Today, appraisers who wish to earn and carry licenses in multiple states must separately apply in each State, significantly adding to administrative requirements and obligations. The most direct example of the benefits of such a system involves background check requirements that currently are being imposed on appraisers on a State-by-State basis. Several years ago, the Appraisal Foundation established a fingerprint-based background check requirement for States. Today, 47 States now have in place a requirement for formal background checks. Many States impose similar requirements on existing credentialed holders in real estate appraisal, many of whom have been practicing in good standing without any issues for many years. A few States even went so far as to impose these requirements on appraisers practicing in other States who applied for a license via reciprocity or a temporary practice permit. Even though the Appraisal Foundation had the best intentions, it eventually backed away from this requirement, acknowledging that it had erred. Now it is unlikely that States will repeal or change the existing requirements anytime soon. Under an NMLS-like system, such background checks could be performed and shared by all participating State agencies hoping to significantly shave its burdensome administrative expense. In conclusion, the Appraisal Institute is not suggesting eliminating all Federal involvement in the appraisal regulatory structure, but rather repositioning it to align with regulatory systems of other related industries. Should States fail in their responsibilities to manage appraisal oversight, a specified Federal agency like the FDIC, or FHFA could be authorized to set up a backstop system just as the statute recognizing the NMLS does today. Such a system simply would reposition the Federal role to one of a backstop authority of one of last resort. Presently, real estate appraisers pay for the operation and maintenance of the regulatory structure through license renewal fees, course requirements, and mandates to purchase the volume of rules and regulations. After almost 27 years of FIRREA, it is time to make the appraisal regulatory structure and process more efficient and reposition--and responsive to the needs of practitioners and consumers. The Appraisal Institute applauds Congress' review of the FIRREA statute with an eye towards modernizing the appraisal regulatory structure, and we stand ready to assist you in any way we can. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to testify today, and I would be happy to answer any questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Garber can be found on page 76 of the appendix.] Chairman Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Mr. Garber. Mr. Brady, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF ED BRADY, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF HOME BUILDERS Mr. Brady. Chairman Luetkemeyer, Ranking Member Cleaver, and members of the subcommittee, I am pleased to appear before you today on behalf of the National Association of Home Builders to share our views on the regulatory structure of the appraisal industry and suggestions for ensuring efficient and effective collateral valuation. My name is Ed Brady, and I am a home builder and developer in Bloomington, Illinois, and sitting here as NAHB's 2016 chairman of the board. The housing recovery has been impeded by ongoing problems in the U.S. residential appraisal system. While lenders, Federal banking regulators, and Federally related housing agencies implemented corrective measures in response to valuation breakdowns in the wake of the Great Recession, And Congress mandated additional measures in the Dodd-Frank Act, these steps did not address fundamental flaws and shortcomings of the residential appraisal framework. Improper appraisal practices, a shortage of experienced appraisers, and inadequate oversight of the appraisal system continue to restrict the flow of mortgage credit and retard the housing recovery. NAHB is not advocating that appraisals should be higher than the market. Rather, our goal is to establish an appraisal system that produces accurate values through all phases of the housing cycle. The focus of reforms, to date, have been on eliminating undue influence on appraisers to produce inflated valuations. However, when home prices began declining, improper appraisal practices exasperated the sliding values. Some appraisers used distress sales, many of which involve properties that were neglected and in poor physical condition as comparables in assessing the value of a brand new home, without accounting for major differences in condition and quality. Without such adjustments, the two housing types are just not compatible or comparable. As the housing market has improved, builders face new appraisal challenges, specifically the lack of data on new construction, a shortage of appraisers experienced in appraising new construction, and no practical way to appeal a faulty appraisal. Getting more new home transactions into multiple listing services' databases would be a simple solution for the lack of data. NAHB is presently engaged in that discussion, and this, we hope, to result--have results soon. Through dramatic increase in the use of appraisal management companies, or AMCs, has led to more activity by appraisers with less training and experience. This is problematic for new home construction transactions, which by their nature, are very complex. Appraisers must be able to analyze detailed plans and specifications, determine the value of options, including state-of-the-art energy efficiencies, find appropriate comparables, and factor in land values. One way to improve the quality of new home valuations is to strengthen education, training, and experience requirements for appraisers of new home construction. The biggest flaw in the current appraisal system is the lack of workable appeals processes. Current valuation practices do not provide a process for expedited appeals of inaccurate or faulty appraisals. Buyers and sellers, builders and real estate agents can be held hostage by the current inability to promptly address legitimate questions on evaluation. NAHB recommends the adoption of a standard appraisal appeal structure similar in design to the one utilized by the VA. Finally, the current residential appraisal system continues to face many challenges due to inconsistent and conflicting appraisal standards and guidance as well as the inadequate Federal oversight. NAHB believes that fundamental appraisal system reform must be a principal element of efforts to rebuild the Nation's housing finance system. Coordination and accountability currently are lacking, and there are major gaps in the system. In closing, collateral valuation is critical--is a critical component of the mortgage decision. While there have been a number of positive changes to the appraisal system since the financial crisis, there remain a number of unresolved issues. NAHB stands ready to work with this subcommittee, along with appraisal, housing, and financial stakeholders to address the real challenges we face in restoring the public trust and how we build, transfer, value, and finance America's--American consumers' most valuable asset, their home. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [The prepared statement of Mr. Brady can be found on page 40 of the appendix.] Chairman Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Mr. Brady. Ms. Wagner, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF JENNIFER S. WAGNER, MANAGING ATTORNEY, MOUNTAIN STATE JUSTICE, INC. Ms. Wagner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Cleaver, and members of the subcommittee. On behalf of Mountain State Justice, the National Consumer Law Center, and the National Association of Consumer Advocates, thank you for inviting me to testify today. I am the managing attorney of Mountain State Justice, a nonprofit legal services providers in West Virginia. Since the early 2000s, we have served thousands of the homeowners in danger of losing their homes as a direct result of appraisal fraud and other predatory lending practices. I am here today to thank Congress for imposing stricter new standards for appraisals under the Dodd-Frank Act. These new standards have dramatically reduced appraisal fraud. In turn, saving countless of homeowners from foreclosure. It is common knowledge that lax regulation of the mortgage and appraisal market led directly to the devastating financial collapse of 2008. Before the collapse, profit-driven brokers and lenders worked with appraisers to fraudulently inflate home values. Lenders made more money from larger loans, and they rewarded appraisers willing to hit target values with repeat business, and sometimes even kickbacks. Many of these loans contained features that would cause the homeowners' payments to skyrocket after a short teaser period. Even before the market collapsed, consumers and their advocates began to see this house of cards topple as homeowners trapped in these underwater loans were unable to refinance when their payments spiked up. Thousands, and soon millions, of homeowners faced foreclosure. Surely, we all remember this. In my organization alone, for years, every single week, we saw dozens of homeowners facing foreclosure because of appraisal fraud. Appraisal fraud is why one of my clients, I will call Ms. R, came into my office desperate to save her home. Ms. R had tried to refinance for a lower fixed interest rate after her payments skyrocketed. She was denied because her loan was so underwater and now she faced foreclosure. How did this happen? A broker appraiser team preyed on her, repeatedly flipping her into loans of ever-increasing amounts. Then a phone salesman for another lender called promising her lower payments. This lender didn't bother with an appraisal. Instead, it used an automated valuation model, which provided a grossly inflated valuation based on flawed data. This inaccurate computer model inflated the value of Ms. R's home by nearly 300 percent. Ms. R was trapped. The conduct that pushed her to the brink of homelessness also led to the devastation of 2008 when millions of homeowners lost their homes and banks failed across the country. The regulations adopted by Congress in response were absolutely necessary to prevent a repeat of the same devastating events. The Dodd-Frank Act increased regulation of appraisals building on the necessary safety and soundness requirements passed after the savings and loan crisis. Dodd-Frank has ended the practice of appraisal fraud, primarily by requiring appraisals to be independent as well as accurate and conducted in person by qualified appraisers. These reforms help homeowners make--help keep homeowners informed about the biggest financial decisions they will ever make. They also protect lenders and investors and insurers by ensuring that they have the collateral necessary to protect their risk. There is no doubt that these reforms have been a success. Weakening these standards, including allowing lenders to rely on alternative valuation models, or eliminating appraisal independence controls, will return us to the recent era of unreliable reports that ultimately upended the market. The existing baseline of Federal lending and appraisal standards is necessary to ensure that consumers and the entire financial market are uniformly protected from both fraud and from unintentional error. The savings and loan crisis of the 1980s, and then the economic collapse of 2008, showed the urgent need for these commonsense rules. Eliminating these minimum Federal protections, and instead relying solely on the States would open the door to more economic crises that devastate homeowners and financial institutions alike. In sum, Congress wisely adopted the current Federal appraisal protections to protect the American dream of homeownership and financial stability. Without these protections, we face the risk of a new financial crisis, even while we barely recovered from the last one. I urge you to keep these essential protections in place. I am happy to answer any questions. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Ms. Wagner can be found on page 128 of the appendix.] Chairman Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Ms. Wagner. With that, we will begin the questions, and I will recognize myself for 5 minutes. Mr. Garber, you made a couple of comments with regards to some of the other--the Appraisal Subcommittee and the Appraisal Foundation. I guess, so my question is, do you believe both those entities are relevant? Mr. Garber. Thank you for the question. These are two different entities, so I think they should be treated separately, separate discussions altogether. With regard to the Appraisal Subcommittee, we do see that the role that is being played by the subcommittee today has essentially been accomplished as far as its mission and goals. State appraisal boards have been licensing appraisers for many years, and they are doing a very good job of processing appraisal licenses and certifications, and they are doing a base level of enforcement. This has been going on for some time, and by the Appraisal Subcommittee's own records, they are grading State appraisal regulatory agencies very well. There is no State that is at risk of compliance burden. The issue with the Appraisal Subcommittee is that it is set up by FIRREA, which the way it is structured, it results in an ever-increasing set of regulations on top of appraisers. It is an oddity in the-- Chairman Luetkemeyer. That begs the questions then, do you believe the regulatory system for appraisers needs a Federal regulatory body? Mr. Garber. We think that the Federal role should be repositioned to that of a last resort. So right now, the Appraisal Subcommittee is odd in that it actually audits independent or sovereign State agencies. We find no comparable for this in the marketplace today in any regulatory aspect where the Federal Government is actually auditing State agencies. So we are suggesting that that be aligned with those that--recent precedents that have been enacted by Congress, like the NMLS, which puts the burden on the States, the States have to maintain that job, and as long as they are performing at a high level, then they are allowed to do that, but there is still a Federal role, but it is one of a last resort. Chairman Luetkemeyer. Okay. Mr. Park, would you like to respond to that? Mr. Park. Sure. The regulatory system that we have in place now recognizes States' rights, and what the Appraisal Subcommittee does in terms of our compliance reviews of the States is we review the States to make sure that they are in compliance with Title XI, which includes the AQB minimum criteria, that they have implemented USPAP, and that they are in compliance with those minimum baselines. Again, it is key to have that minimum baseline for the States to adhere to in order to facilitate commerce. Otherwise, without that minimum baseline, you are going to have the States go in 55 different directions, and it is going to increase the cost and burden on mortgage lending significantly. Chairman Luetkemeyer. Okay. I had a very good friend of mine, who is an appraiser, and I had a long conversation with him just last week, and his comment to me was that he didn't know how any person could ever get started in the appraisal business today, because of the difficulty of getting licensed and finding your own business. The business model is not--and I come from rural Missouri. I am about as rural as you get, a town of 300 people, but he lives in a town of about 30,000. But the problem is, as a number of you indicated here, that there is a shortage. There is a shortage in my area. And while I recognize 2008 pointed out some problems, has Dodd-Frank caused--the rules that came out of Dodd-Frank, have they--has the pendulum swung so far that now we are lining up with a shortage? That the restrictions in Dodd-Frank are such that it is squeezing the appraisal industry to the point where we don't have people being able to get in it? And if so, that is a problem, and how do we fix that? Excuse me. One of you want to tackle that? Mr. Bunton? Mr. Bunton. A couple of issues regarding the shortage. One, Dodd-Frank and regarding the appraisal management companies, I think a lot of lenders felt that they were compelled to establish appraisal management companies. And what has happened is because of their focus on--a lot of them. There are good AMCs, but a lot of them are not maybe not as good. They focused on the cost and the turnaround time. So there is a shortage of appraisers who are willing to work for that fee. We still have a lot of appraisers. We have more certified appraisers today than we did 10 years ago, but they don't want to work for that fee. The other impact is, is that the licensed appraisers in the United States, when FHA, through an act of Congress, said that we can only use certified appraisers, that had a huge impact, particularly in rural areas where you had licensed appraisers. The number of licensed appraisers--excuse me, 10 years ago, there were 29,000--just under 30,000. Today there are 7,900, and so there has been a huge drop in the licensed category. Lenders don't want to use licensed appraisers or trainees, and that creates the problem that your friend talked about entering the market. Banks used to be the training ground for appraisers. Now they have outsourced it, and since banks don't want to use trainees or licensed people, people don't want to bring on trainees because they are not really good. Thank you. Chairman Luetkemeyer. Very good. I appreciate your comments. My time has expired. With that, we recognize the gentlelady from California, Ms. Waters. Ms. Waters. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Today, we are examining proposals to fix our current system of regulating and overseeing appraisals, but is there really any reason to believe that it is broken? To the contrary, it seems that we have substantial evidence to demonstrate that our current system, in particular, the important reforms brought about under Dodd-Frank, has been largely successful in streamlining standards across the country and protecting us against the kind of harmful appraisal fraud that we saw leading up to the housing crisis. While there is always room for further improvement, I don't see any reason for a complete overhaul of our current system as some have suggested we need. So I would like to get some comments of Ms. Wagner. Freddie Mac recently announced that it plans to dispense with traditional appraisals for some mortgages and replace them with automated valuation models, AVMs. Further, Mr. Park's testimony supports the use of different valuation products, according to the risk characteristics of a loan. Can you talk about some of the risk that AVMs can impose to consumers and the financial system? Do you think that AVMs could be appropriate for some lower risk loans, as Mr. Park has suggested? Ms. Wagner. Thank you for that question. First of all, I do agree that, as they say, "if it is not broke, don't fix it," and I don't think that we are broken. In fact, I think that we are engaged in fixing what happened before. AVMs do give me significant concern, and they give the appraisers that I have talked to, as well as my homeowner clients, those same concerns. They just can't be fully accurate. If you use a computer valuation model, you are not getting the input of actually going out to the house and seeing whether there has been any kind of damage to the interior of the house, and you are also not getting the input of if someone has made substantial improvements to the house. There is no standardized method for AVMs, and a lot of the data inputs are simply inaccurate coming from tax data that is outdated, and from the use of comparables not based on actually seeing whether those properties are comparable, but just sort of inputting from the area. And a lot of places, there is tremendous diversity in housing. It is not just subdivisions. And one example is a client of mine, who lived on a road right next to a subdivision, an appraiser in that case used comparables from the subdivision that were much closer to her house than houses that were actually much more like her house. An AVM model would do that same exact thing without any kind of oversight, so you can't see the property appeal, you can't see the unusual characteristics of the property, you can't see any kind of damage, infestation of rats, anything like that, and you can't see any kind of improvements, so it does greatly concern me. Ms. Waters. Well, thank you very much, and I believe exactly what you said. First of all, I like independent appraisals. I like small businesses. I don't like the way the system may be run now with the management, appraisal management companies and taking a fee or cut, you know, from the appraisers. But let me ask you, because I think there is room for dealing with still some potential fraud. If the lending institutions are owning still some of these appraisal units in their business, I think that is a problem. I would like to get rid of that. But let me just, you know, agree with you in saying that the work that was done in Dodd-Frank really did get rid of a lot of the problems, a lot of the fraud. I see no reason at all to be talking about getting rid of Dodd-Frank. With all due respect to Mr. Luetkemeyer, you are absolutely right. There is no way that these models, these AVMs can determine what that house really is, what it really looks like, where the damage is, et cetera, et cetera, and again, I think as I was coming in, I heard some testimony from someone that talked about the recent big data problem that we are seeing in the election, and on and on and one. Get rid of that crap. Leave the human element in appraisals. And so with that, thank you for your testimony here today. I agree with you 100 percent, and I yield back the balance of my time. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentlelady yields backs. With that, we go to the gentleman from New Mexico, Mr. Pearce, for 5 minutes. Mr. Pearce. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bunton, where does the Appraisal Foundation get its funding? Mr. Bunton. The majority of the funding is through publication sales, the book of standards course work, material like that. We receive a grant from the Appraisal Subcommittee for $350,000, the current grant level, and our budget is about $4.2 million. Mr. Pearce. Okay. Mr. Park, you heard Ms. Wagner's testimony and said that basically the bubble in the housing prices were not created by spiking--just by a spike in consumer demand, but as a result of intentional fraud and lack of oversight. So that seems to be sort of directed at your function to me. I mean, I am--I have to confess, I am a little bit confused by--I think as Ms. Trice's chart shows, so I am a little confused about what is going on, but--so is her statement a reflection of the oversight that you bring? Mr. Park. Well, her statement reflects the States are the one that regulate appraisers-- Mr. Pearce. Yes, but I know, but you-- Mr. Park. --directly Mr. Pearce. --you oversee the States, and you are supposed to--it says in your document that you can bring actions if a State is in noncompliance. So surely, the Federal Government doesn't say that it is okay to create fraud and the States don't say it is okay to create fraud, so you would expect there would be something that would show up if the amount of fraud is there. So I am just asking, is that a fair assessment of your oversight? Mr. Park. The Appraisal Subcommittee's role is to oversee the States in regard to-- Mr. Pearce. Okay. Mr. Park. --requiring-- Mr. Pearce. Sir, with all respect-- Mr. Park. --to Title XI. Mr. Pearce. You oversee the States, but you say on page 8 that you have the right to bring action in the case of noncompliance or order of nonrecognition. Does that mean that you don't have oversight of the States? You don't-- Mr. Park. We do have oversight of the States. Mr. Pearce.And you can't do anything about it. Mr. Park. We would take action if a State is in--is not complying with Title XI. Mr. Pearce. So you are saying the fraud that was--the fraud that was suggested by Ms. Wagner was then approved under Title XI. That is what I would have to draw the conclusion, if you don't find any reason to bring an action. It says you have the right to bring the action in your own document. Mr. Park. Generally speaking, if there is a fraudulent appraisal, there is going to be a violation of Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice, USPAP, involved in that fraudulent activity. The States are the ones that handle complaints and adjudicate complaints in regard to fraud in their State or violations of the uniform standards. Mr. Pearce. So if there is fraud going on that was alleged there, then you have no say-so. Mr. Park. We have to work within the purview of the law. Mr. Pearce. So what does--have you ever brought an action against the State? Mr. Park. We have never taken a nonrecognition action against the State, which, prior to 2010, the Dodd-Frank Act was the only action that the subcommittee could take against a State, which would be a very dramatic and Draconian action. The subcommittee has chosen, for the past 25 years, to work through the partnership with the States and with the foundation to correct-- Mr. Pearce. But you are never taken an action? Mr. Park. --a problem within--we have not taken-- Mr. Pearce. You have not taken an action, and yet, according to Ms. Wagner, fraud was the reason for the bubble in-- Mr. Park. And the Dodd-Frank Act gave the subcommittee additional regulatory authority to take actions in lieu of, or short of a nonrecognition-- Mr. Pearce. You have gotten that-- Mr. Park. --process. Mr. Pearce. You have gotten that additional permission, and have you done anything under that? Mr. Park. We have not found-- Mr. Pearce. Okay. That's all I need to know. Mr. Park. --the need to take any further action. Mr. Pearce. Ms. Trice, would you like to address this, because this seems like no one is in charge of anything, that we are going to oversee but we are really not going to take any actions. Would you like to make an address on this? Ms. Trice. Yes, please. I think the consumer is the one who is the one who gets punished the most by this regulatory structure that I have diagramed here. So if a consumer has a problem with the appraisal, and the NAHB pointed this out as well, if someone needs to make an appeal, there is not an efficient, effective process. So if it is immediate, let's just say there is an appraised value falls short of the contract price, the consumer can only make an appeal to the lender. If they make an appeal to the State-- Mr. Pearce. Let me ask one more question, if I can. Mr. Garber, in your opinion, what would happen if AFC didn't exist at all? Mr. Garber. Well, if States would continue to do licensing and enforcement--but we are not suggesting that that go away. Mr. Pearce. I didn't ask. I am asking for my perspective, and my time is about shot. Mr. Garber. Yes. From right now, the appraisal community would have a less burdensome regulatory environment. In fact, it would be a more attractive proposition to enter the profession because we would have fewer rules and volume of layering effect that is currently occurring under the current regime. Mr. Pearce. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Garber. That is important to the rural markets. Mr. Pearce. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your indulgence. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentleman's time has expired. With that, we go to the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Velazquez. Mr. Velazquez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Luetkemeyer. You are recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. I would like to address my first question to each member of the panel. Given that automated valuation models are playing an increasing role in residential valuation and the number of appraisers is dwindling, the appraisal landscape is changing quickly, regardless of regulation. What do you see as the role of appraisers 10 years from now? Mr. Park? Mr. Park. The appraiser profession is still and will continue to be a very important cog to the financial system in the United States. Automated valuations, automated tools can only go so far. You don't realize how big this country is and how diverse the housing is in this country until you start trying to place appraisal orders all over, all over the Nation. Ms. Velazquez. Uh-huh. Mr. Park. There are certain areas where you have homogenous property types where automated tools are useful, but I would submit that those tools should not be left alone so that a computer is generating the valuation without--without an appraiser's expertise being involved. So the future is, appraisers will have to adapt to uses of technology, lenders will have to adapt, and so will regulators. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. Mr. Bunton. Mr. Bunton. Automated valuation models are a tool that appraisers use. That is all they are. And there may be an application for them, as Mr. Park points out, with homogenous housing stock, with a very low loan-to-value, those types of things, but as far as 10 years from now, you are still going to need a valuation professional to sift through all the data. They will probably perform more appraisals in a day than they do today because they will have access to a great deal of information just sitting at their desk, but you are going to need that human interface of a trained valuation professional to make determinations, particularly in areas where you don't have a homogenous housing stock. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. Ms. Trice. There is two basic components to an AVM. One is the data, the second one is the algorithm. So today, we have a very poor database, frankly. We have no inventory of every piece of property in the United States, so we have MLS data, which is essentially sales data, which is, how do I say, flowery sometimes. It is not necessarily factual. Then we have public record data, which varies from State to State and county to county, so in essence, we don't have very good data. In theory, AVMs in the future could become more reliable, but today's market, they are not. And just a reminder, human beings write the algorithms, so it is nothing more than an opinion cloaked in a mathematical formula. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. Mr. Garber. Thank you for the question. Big data, in general, has the potential to enhance the valuation process if it is looked at closely, and there is a trained professional evaluation of the methods that are used. Right now, there are appraisers that are integrating big data into their own appraisal reports, and I think you would find, may be surprised that a lot of appraisers are actually very technologically savvy today. I think our biggest concern is we don't see that our regulatory structure is really positioned to allow and enable appraisal professionals to provide the full range of services that the user community and consumers really are looking for. There is a full range of demand for valuation services. Loan purchases is a big one, but it is not the only one. You have refis, you have workouts, you have the ability or the need to do monitoring of entire portfolios. Right now our estimates indicate that there are four evaluations performed for every single appraisal in the market today. Right now appraisers are not involved in the majority of the valuation services that are being engaged by financial institutions. We want to position our regulatory structure so that it is more responsive to those needs. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. Mr. Brady. Mr. Brady. Just very quickly. Data is important, especially in our segment of the industry in new construction. It changes every day. It relies on code changes, it relies on energy and efficiency. So the human touch is always going to be an element. I think the AVM is a resource. But we should not rely, especially in our segment of the market, on AVMs. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. Ms. Wagner. Ms. Wagner. Very briefly, I do think I addressed this question a little bit. But I think looking ahead into the future, it just highlights the need for careful regulation in a Federal structure in order to ensure that there is some consistency and safety in the marketplace. So if we do end up using these models slightly more, it should be balanced with actual appraisals, and we do need some oversight to make sure it is done fairly and safely for everyone. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentlelady's time has expired. We have a great discussion going here today. I thank all of the panel for their concise answers. With that, we go to Mr. Rothfus from Pennsylvania, for 5 minutes. Mr. Rothfus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Garber, while I understand that a national appraiser shortage may not yet be here, though industry trends suggest that one may be coming soon, we all seem to agree that localized shortages are a problem, especially in rural communities. My district includes a number of rural communities and I was hoping to get a better understanding of how this dynamic may impact my constituents. Can you describe how localized appraiser shortages may impact communities such as those in rural Pennsylvania? Mr. Garber. Yes, thank you for the question. Appraisers, as I was saying, are facing a layering effect of rules and regulations right now, and it is never ending at this point, where there are no bounds around the current regulatory structure. So as an example, we have seen proposals and actually in effect now programs to codify appraisal methodology, where appraisers not just have to follow a certain standard, but are being obligated to follow methods and techniques, such as the cost approach or the sales comparison approach or the income approach in the appraisal process, and follow it along a strict guideline. Mr. Rothfus. Where would that be coming from? Mr. Garber. Well, it came from a proposal originally directed by the Appraisal Subcommittee for The Appraisal Foundation to undertake, and that has resulted in the creation of a third board under The Appraisal Foundation called the Appraisal Practices Board. That board has a very unclear role in today's marketplace, but I will give you an example of how it is being used. State regulators have already identified this as a document or a set of materials that they are using in enforcement cases. So appraisers have to keep that in mind as they are developing their appraisals. And just last week I was talking with an official at Freddie Mac. Freddie Mac issued a bulletin last week on green and energy-efficient appraisal issues. Within that bulletin, those documents are actually referenced. In talking with the Freddie Mac official they indicate that those bulletins are actually part of the contracts that they have with loan sellers to Freddie Mac. Those are now effectively part of the contract when a lender sells a loan to Freddie Mac. They don't realize it, but that is an unauthorized board of The Appraisal Foundation today, but their lenders are going to be obligated to follow all of that information to a tee. And in your rural market, every market is different, so the rules or the guidelines that work in Washington, D.C., may not work in rural Pennsylvania, because every market is going to be different. That is why we need to have more flexibility to the methodology. Mr. Rothfus. Would you think that if you are seeing some shortages appearing in some areas, rural areas, could those trends eventually get to other areas. Mr. Garber. So absolutely. I provide some information on the projections ahead. We do see the potential for a 20 to 25 percent continued reduction or a further reduction over the next 5 to 10 years. What is troubling to us is that there are fewer appraisers that are interested in entering the profession. They are facing all of these rules, regulations, fees. Right now, the Appraisal Subcommittee is about ready to finalize a rule to implement an appraisal management company registry fee. The process that was used to undertake that rulemaking failed to consider the impacts on small businesses. The reality is that rule is going to impose significant fees on small business appraisal service providers, because they are going to be passed through from the appraisal management company directly onto the heads of practitioners. If you are an appraiser, you are looking at this system, you are stepping back and you are reconsidering the proposition today. And that is what troubles us as a leader within the appraisal profession. We need to reposition this to make it a more attractive endeavor. Mr. Rothfus. Thank you. Move over to Mr. Park. Alternative valuation models or methods have been used by the appraisals industry for many years. In your testimony you seem to support the use of new methods and new technologies based on improved data, yet you caution against moving completely away from an appraiser-based process. Could you describe for which types of transactions alternative valuation methods, such as automated models, might be most appropriate? Mr. Park. Yes, thank you for the question. As I stated earlier, in areas of the country where you have a more homogenous housing stock, where you have good quality data, coupled with a low risk transaction--when I say a low risk transaction, an example would be a rate and term refinance where a borrower is simply lowering their rate from 5 percent to 4 percent, something like that. They are not taking cash out. There is no additional risk in the transaction. The borrower has a good credit score and so forth. They pose a good credit risk with little likelihood of default. Those are transactions where an AVM could be useful again with human intervention in terms of making sure that the results of that AVM make sense. Mr. Rothfus. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentleman yields back. With that, we go to the ranking member of the committee, Mr. Cleaver from Missouri. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Trice, do you like hamburgers. Ms. Trice. Excuse me? Mr. Cleaver. Do you like hamburgers? Ms. Trice. Hamburgers? I love hamburgers. Mr. Cleaver. Do you prefer mustard or mayonnaise? Ms. Trice. Neither. Mr. Cleaver. Neither. What do you prefer? Ms. Trice. I like ketchup. Mr. Cleaver. Ketchup. I don't. But I delivered a speech in actually the boot heel of Missouri, Cape Girardeau, which you may or may not have heard of. So I go to Chili's and I sit at the table with a staffer and there is no waitress, there is no wait staff at all. They have a contraption on the table. It says, place your order. And it came with mustard, and I like mayonnaise. I think that is one of the great tragedies of this moment. And so I think that there is some general consensus that the AVMs or the new technological way in which some of these appraisals are done, particularly, I guess, with home equity loans, primarily with home equity loans, but I think you can also sense that there is some concern here about that. And so I am wondering, you know, I don't want to be a troglodyte and I am afraid of technology, you know, but what happened in the financial crisis is that the appraisals ended up being far too generous. And so I think in some instances people thought, well, you know, if we can put the AVM it will stop that process. But it also removes the humanity from it. It also creates some other issues. So, you know, any time we have come up with a new technology, a great technology, I think, and I am looking for this, too, that there has to be some kind of counterbalance to maintain the humanity. And so I am wondering if most of us agree that the system is somewhat flawed right now. What can we do as a counterbalance? Ms. Trice. One of the problem with AVMs is that they can be manipulated and we saw that in the mortgage crisis. So what happens is they built what they called cascades so that they would bundle 10 different AVMs into one ordering platform. Well, what would happen is a lender would continue it order an AVM until, bingo, he got the number that he needed. So one of my dear friends was an AVM developer, and he had sold his company, and the entity that bought his company said, hey, we need to juice the algorithm, because in Florida we are not getting enough hits, so we need you to dial in a 20 percent appreciation rate in Florida. Because they are only get paid if they get a hit on that AVM. So don't for a minute think that AVMs can't be manipulated and subject to fraud. Mr. Cleaver. Oh, yes. Ms. Trice. They just can do it on a wholesale basis rather than one at a time. Mr. Cleaver. Mr. Brady. Mr. Brady. I think it is an overall--I mean, reform is needed. The Appraisal Subcommittee as example probably doesn't have enough teeth. They talked about it earlier, there is no enforcement. I mean, you can note a problem in a State, but they need a little bit more authority to take action. From State to State is different. Some have boards, some have funding, some don't. Some sweep the funding on appraisal fees into the general fund and don't fund it appropriately. So there needs to be a better standard. The appeals process, we need a good appeals process, because I had an example just 3 weeks ago where I had a plan, new construction. I gave them a cost analysis, $249,000, it came in at $234,000. The reason it came in at $234,000 is the oversight of not finishing the basement and 9-foot ceilings. Very simple, yet I wasn't able to convince that appraiser to make that change. So we need a very quick and adequate appeal process to at least not inflate the cost, but justify the cost. Mr. Cleaver. Is that something we should be doing? Mr. Brady. There should be a standard within the industry, like the VA, like the Tidewater potential, the Tidewater Initiative, that allows an appraiser to call if it is undervalued compared to what the contract might be, to call and ask questions. And we have gone so far away from that because of political correctness and worries that we are inflating the price of a product valuation that we have gone, as the chairman suggested, the pendulum has swung almost too far to really punish the supply or the provider. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentlemen's time has expired. With that, we will go to the gentleman from Kentucky. Mr. Barr is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Barr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to our witnesses for your testimony. I was particularly interested in Ms. Trice's appraisal oversight schematic or graph that shows the complexity of the oversight system that we have in place now and interested in your suggestion of a big and bold plan to overhaul the system. I do think that that you are right, that sometimes less can be more in terms of actually providing for an accountable system, because when you do have this dizzying maze of agencies and responsibilities you are dividing lines of accountability and the responsibilities of the participants are not clearly set forward. So can you just summarize your testimony a little more and amplify it to say what would be that big and bold plan that would streamline the system? And do we still need the ASC, the subcommittee, or does it need to completely replaced with a new structure that you are proposing? Ms. Trice. Well, I do call for a new structure, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't take the components that do work from the current system and put it in this new entity. I mean, we do need licensing of individuals. Lending however is national, it is no longer local. And so if we set up a 50-State system, you essentially are--I will borrow from this President-elect Trump--we are building a wall between each border of each State. So we have to have a system that is portable across all States and it is uniform in its standards, so if I get a mortgage in Maryland and I want to move to Delaware I know exactly what to expect and the process is uniform. I do subscribe to the theory that people are honest and want to do the right thing, but under the current regulatory scheme, they don't even know what the right thing is to do. So, you know, it certainly is difficult to follow the rules when you don't understand the rules and whose rules they are. Mr. Barr. Has the Dodd-Frank law helped proliferate the complexity of the regulatory structure or are there some positive changes there? What is the impact of Dodd-Frank in exacerbating the complexity? Ms. Trice. Dodd-Frank has many positive components. Number one, the appraisal independence requirements are really critical to the appraisal process. The problem has actually been the enforcement of it. So we keep adding new regulations, but we didn't enforce any of them. So the result of that is we punish good people and the cost of compliance has just gone off the charts. But bad actors continue to behave badly. Mr. Barr. One thing I keep hearing from constituents, banks, actors in the real estate market, is that there are excessive appraisal requirements that add unnecessary costs to transactions, and I would like for any of you all to comment on that. In other words, the complaint that I am hearing specifically is that there are new requirements, I don't know if they are Dodd-Frank requirements or other regulatory retirements, that require appraisals every time there is a refinancing or every time there is a transaction, even when there is not a material change in the valuation of the property. Can anybody speak to that of what is the cause of that? And do we need as many appraisals as we have? Mr. Garber. Well, we just got through a bank crisis, so that is partly what is going on there, is that we have a lot of failed banks or banks that have been coming up for air. And so the bank examiners have been monitoring, they have been examining those cases, looking at those portfolios, and they have seen a need to kind of get an understanding of the risks that are involved there. So having an appraisal to update those files, to understand your risks from a taxpayer standpoint is an important thing, and I think that is a good goal from a safety and soundness standpoint. But from the appraiser's standpoint, there are clearly new rules that are hitting appraisers on the head. We see fees that are being passed through to appraisers to be paid for in order to be accepted on an approved list. I mentioned the registry fees that are coming from the Appraisal Subcommittee. That is going to hit appraisers squarely in the face and be a huge disincentive from practicing in those areas. And financial institutions themselves, too. People don't realize there are a lot of appraisers that work at banks. Bank appraisers have to deal with this complicated regulatory structure, too, and they have to obtain those licenses just as the practitioners do. So an efficient system would be helpful there. Mr. Barr. Thank you. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentleman's time has expired. I now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green, for 5 minutes. Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the witnesses for appearing as well. Mr. Brady, I was especially interested in your comments. If you might recall, when I gave my opening statement, I dealt with this area of appraisals and appeals, and you have followed up on this. Let's just talk about a possible example to make this clear, or clearer, if we can. Let's assume that you have an FHA loan and the seller believes that there is a problem with the appraisal. I won't use terms like fraud, but there is a problem. And let's assume that the buyer thinks there is a problem as well. What is the process at that point to allow them to have an opportunity to impact that appraisal? Mr. Brady. Well, it varies, and a banker that gets an appraisal that doesn't meet a contract price can ask the appraiser to talk to the seller and try and justify it. Many times that doesn't occur and that is where the problem exists. But also, in a transaction where you get an appraisal a week before, let's be generous and say a week before closing, and the appraisal's not justifies the purchase price, that process takes much longer, the deal either blows up, doesn't close, both buyers or sellers are unhappy. In a new construction situation, many times sellers, meaning us, will eat the difference, not justifiably, but in order to close a house because the appeal process or that process is too lengthy to get it done in a matter of time. So where it would take place better is in the Tidewater Initiative where an appraiser would conduct the seller prior to issuing an appraisal, so that they can either justify or not, not inflate the price, the purchase price, so that it doesn't happen at the last minute. Mr. Green. I understand. But is that required, is it required of the appraiser to have that conversation? Mr. Brady. No. Mr. Green. And in a good many cases that does not happen is what you are saying? Mr. Brady. That is correct. Mr. Green. Now you indicated that you sell properties, obviously you do, you are a builder. But let's just take the homeowner who just has a home, a typical person in the United States America. If this person finds problems with the difference, that person may not be able to eat, that was a term you used-- Mr. Brady. That is correct. Mr. Green. --to eat that loss. That person my find it unacceptable. At this point can that person go out and say, "Well, let me just get another appraisal"? Mr. Brady. No. I don't believe they can go out and get another appraiser appraisal. Mr. Green. Believe you are right. Mr. Brady. But time is of the essence and they don't have time to justify the actual cost. Mr. Green. Well, it is not just the time. There are other factors involved, too. Ms. Wagner, your hand has been up. I would like for you to respond quickly, if you can, please. Ms. Wagner. Yes, thank you. One concern that we do have with the appeal process is that, while there might be some legitimate cases where we have seen that type of process manipulated in the past that has led to overvaluations, we have seen lenders contacting appraisers and pressuring them to increase values or telling appraisers that the values have come in too low, and then there has been some manipulation within the system to then come back with a higher value. Mr. Green. Let me intercede for just a second. So we are concluding that we need a balance. Ms. Wagner. Right. Mr. Green. And there seems to be a pervasive belief that that balance has not achieved, and that is what I want to work on, to try to achieve that balance. I would like to work with you, Ms. Wagner--I also want to work with you, Mr. Brady--to see if we can achieve that balance, because that is what is critical. And the realtors are telling me that balance has not been achieved. I have talked to homeowners who believe that it hasn't been achieved, because once they get the first appraisal, getting another one is not an easy thing to accomplish. I think there is a waiting period before you can get another appraisal. Is that right, Ms. Wagner? Ms. Wagner. That is true for FHA loans. Mr. Green. FHA, yes. Is that waiting period about 6 months? Ms. Wagner. Yes, sir. Mr. Green. Okay. So you are stuck with a 6-month appraisal. You are a homeowner, you are not a builder, you don't eat losses. You are trying to move up in the world. So I want to correct this. But let me quickly say this, I want to move to another area. None of you are here today to say that we should get rid of Dodd-Frank because of your concerns and the consternation that you have with one area of it. Is that a fair statement? Are you here to say you want to eliminate Dodd-Frank? Anyone? If so, kindly raise your hand. All right. Now, I want to go to one specific area of Dodd-Frank. We have a Defense Department in this country. We have a Securities and Exchange Commission to protect investors. The Defense Department defends the country. Why wouldn't we have a Consumer Financial Protection Bureau to protect consumers? Anybody here want to get rid of the CFPB today? If so, raise your hand. Do you think that it is just a horrible institution and we ought to just do away with it? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back the balance of my time. No hands raised, for the record, on either question. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentleman's time has expired. We welcome Mr. Sherman to the committee today for some questioning. I see he is here and wants to participate. So we welcome him. The gentleman from California is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Sherman. I thank the Chair for letting me participate, although I am not a member of the subcommittee. I would like to ask The Appraisal Foundation how close you are to releasing new rules for entering appraisers. Mr. Bunton. We are currently in the--we call it the exposure draft process. Much like regulators, we issue drafts. We want to make sure we get it right. That board that does it actually has a meeting this Thursday and Friday in St. Louis. My guess, it would probably be spring before it occurs. Mr. Sherman. I will ask this of whatever witnesses would choose to respond. What are one or two facets of the current appraisal system and system of appraisal regulation that you think we ought to preserve that are essential regardless of what other changes might be made? Mr. Garber. I would be happy to take that, Congressman. The Dodd-Frank Act anti-coercion provisions and the appraisal independence provisions of Dodd-Frank are extremely important. I remember living the era of the housing boom, and I think we were on record to Congress with a letter of caution, a pending house of cards, as early as 2002. So those protections are important. I would point out that those are part of the Truth in Lending Act. They are not part of FIRREA. So when we are talking about making changes to our regulatory structure, we are really referring to the FIRREA, the original FIRREA statute, and less so relative to Dodd-Frank, particularly those anti-coercion provisions. Mr. Sherman. Mr. Brady. Mr. Brady. I would just follow up. The independence is a good thing, being able to have independence from appraisers. But the problem is you put all your eggs in that one basket, on the independence on the AMCs, as some of the panel suggested, we are getting less qualified, less educated, less trained appraisers sometimes in those AMCs. That creates a problem that we have to resolve at least by an appeal process, in a very thorough and expeditious appeal process. Ms. Trice. I reiterate appraisal independence is the most important component of Dodd-Frank. Mr. Sherman. Mr. Bunton. Mr. Bunton. If I could just speak to that. Appraisal independence is a great thing. Unfortunately, it also has caused sometimes appraisers to be viewed as radioactive, where real estate agents don't want to talk to them because they are afraid they are going to get in trouble, lenders doesn't want to talk to them. As the gentleman was talking about earlier, you need that communication between the appraiser, and whether it is the lender or the real estate agent or the homeowner, so that he has as much information. Talking to an appraiser is not coercion. It is communicating. It is giving information. Mr. Sherman. Thank you. What can be done to encourage appraisers to work in rural areas to address supply issues? Mr. Garber. Mr. Garber. Well, make it make their lives easier for one. More productive and profitable would be helpful. Stop imposing new rules and mandates on how they do their job relative to the methodologies in particular, because those rural areas are very complex. An appraisal in Washington has vast amounts of data, you have a lot of conforming markets. Whereas in a rural area, you might have data access problems and there might be limitations with the data. But the notion of trying to codify the appraisal process, including the methods that they are using, how to use the sales comparison approach, as an example, in those markets, that is a disincentive to entering the profession. That is why appraisers enter the appraisal profession, is because they are paid to provide their professional expertise. They are trained, they know appraisal and valuation, and they should be allowed to do their jobs and use their professional judgment, not follow a set of rules like a cookbook. Mr. Sherman. I understand. Let's hear from Ms. Wagner. Ms. Wagner. I think that these overarching standards are actually really necessary for appraisers. And I have worked with many appraisers in my largely extremely rural State of West Virginia, and the regulations have never been and the USPAP standards have never been addressed to mean, by honest, hardworking appraisers, they have never said that there is a problem with the USPAP standards. There is room within those standards for rural communities, for areas like this, and there is a real need to have that guidance. And so, that is something that I have heard from appraisers who want to do the right thing, and any kind of flexibility with that would be used by the dishonest folks who want to get away with something, is my understanding from that market. Mr. Sherman. I want to sneak in one other concept. Should we change the rules to allow interstate work more easily? Yes, Ms. Trice or Mr. Park. Ms. Trice. In specific to commercial work, definitely. If I am an expert in appraising a golf course, for example, and I am on the East Coast, and I get called--there aren't that many golf courses in the United States--I have to apply for a license. Mr. Sherman. I hear the administration is going to see to more. But go on. Mr. Park. There are already rules in place for appraisers to be able to apply for reciprocity between States. And that process has become much smoother and much better over the last several-- Mr. Sherman. I believe my time has expired. I thank the chair. Chairman Luetkemeyer. I thank the gentleman. We have a second round planned here. The gentleman from New Mexico has some very salient points he would like to make. He is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Pearce. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Trice, I don't mean to be picking on you, but you seem to be kind of a straight shooter. So from this side of the aisle, from this side of the table, when I read the statement by Ms. Wagner, and I am kind of wanting you to help me evaluate that. It says, "It is common knowledge," page 2 of the testimony says, "It is common knowledge that lax regulation of the mortgage and appraisal market led directly to the financial collapse of 2008. Prior to the collapse, unscrupulous mortgage brokers and lenders joined forces with a handful of appraisers to fraudulently inflate home values." So from my perspective looking at a thing that runs into the hundreds of billions of dollars and maybe nibbles into the trillion-dollar range when you look at home values, is it possible for a handful of appraisers to have done that? Ms. Trice. No, not all by themselves. Mr. Pearce. Okay. Ms. Wagner. If I may actually respond to that. I mean, since you are using my language. Mr. Pearce. Well, I appreciate it. I am just reading your statement. Ms. Wagner. I know, and I would be like to be able to clarify. Mr. Pearce. Mr. Park, actually I really want to direct myself now to the time element that Mr. Green got into. So when you all are checking the States out, do you measure the time from the initiation? Do you get sort of a trend across the Nation that this State takes 1 day, this State takes 6 months, or whatever? Do you do that kind of analysis? Mr. Park. In terms of handling complaints? Mr. Pearce. No, no, no. The terms of the appraisal process, how long it takes. Mr. Park. No, that is not something that the subcommittee has the authority to delve into in terms of the States. Mr. Pearce. Okay. But you do keep a registry of people, of appraisers. Mr. Park. We maintain a national registry of appraisers who are eligible to perform appraisals for Federally related transactions. Mr. Pearce. Okay. And so Ms. Trice made a comment that bad actors continue to act badly. Do you ever take people off of that registry? And what is the process by which you take them off? Mr. Park. We do. In cases where appraisers are found to be not compliant with the requirements we will remove those. In limited cases those appraisers can be removed from the registry. Mr. Pearce. And you take the States' information for who is compliant and who is not or you track your own compliance and noncompliance? Mr. Park. We take the information from the States. The Dodd-Frank Act also gave the subcommittee additional authority to remove appraisers and AMCs from the national registry on an interim basis in lieu of States failing to act. Mr. Pearce. So again, going back then to the assertion that the appraisers were a key piece of the collapse of 2008, how many appraisers did you pull out of your registry for bad acting? Mr. Park. Again, we haven't pulled off any appraisers on a permanent basis for bad acting, as you put it. Regulation of appraisers resides within the States. Ms. Pearce. I understand, but you are the one that keeps the registry. That is what your paper says. And you said you had taken people off the registry. So my question is, how many have you taken off the registry? Mr. Park. The registry is populated by the States. The Appraisal Subcommittee does not enter the data into the registry. Mr. Pearce. It says the ASC is required to maintain the registry? Mr. Park. We maintain the database and the States populate it. Mr. Pearce. All right. So one of the things in your testimony that you do say is that you are in the process--or one of the things that is greatly needed is to streamline processes, streamline and stabilize the appraisal standards. Now, is that something you all have attacked or is this something you just identified that needs to be attacked? Mr. Park. It is something that we have identified as an issue along with all of the other requirements that are placed upon appraisers. If we could get to a point at some time in the future, a point of stasis where there aren't as many changes going on, it would make it-- Mr. Pearce. All right. I get it. I get the point. I am running out of time. So, Mr. Garber, Mr. Park said that 25 years is not hardly, just barely a glimmer in a matter of a bureaucracy. I am kind of paraphrasing it. When I look at Uber, it didn't exist 5 years ago, and now it is worth about $67 billion. So markets are really generating fast. This idea that we can't get a coherent way of regulating in 25 years, is that something you agree with or disagree with? Mr. Garber. I think there is clearly a better model that Congress has recognized recently, and that is the nationwide mortgage licensing system to the States. Mr. Pearce. All right. Thanks. I appreciate it. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentleman yields back. With that, we have the gentleman from Texas who has a second question. He is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Wagner, you had something that you were trying to complete. Would you want to do so now? Ms. Wagner. Thank you, sir. I just wanted to point out that I think that there are some really important market forces at work, and maybe when I said a handful of appraisers I was discussing in West Virginia there are some identifiable bad actors. But I think that the market forces at work really created a situation where the lending industry was able to put substantial pressure on appraisers that compromise their independence and compromise their ability to provide adequate values. And so, with the requirement of appraisal independence in Dodd-Frank, I think that that really helps to ensure that there is some independence there and that those market forces don't interact in order to put pressure on people to increase values or change values. And in addition, I think that the uniform standards of professional appraisal practice help create standards that appraisers can be reviewed according to and can ensure that there are adequate protections in place for both consumers and homeowners and the economy as a whole. So I think that both of those systems are very essential. Mr. Green. Thank you. I do agree with what you have said. I would add this. We do agree, I believe, that from time to time even the best of us can make mistakes. And much of what we do is based upon not only some standard, but also some evaluation that is subjective. And when those mistakes are made, we would want to have a process by which they can be corrected. I was a judge for 26 years. I thank God that there was an appeals process. Over the 26 years I was not perfect. I was better than everybody else however. So the point is that we do need to have a methodology by which we can achieve the balance, and that is what I would like to work with you on. Ms. Wagner, I really like your input, and I like yours, too, Mr. Brady, because I think between the two of you we can strike that balance. Now, let me go over to Mr. Park. Mr. Park, just to get some understanding, first let me start with this basic premise. Do you agree that most people who commit fraudulent acts that they don't expose themselves, that they pretty much decide that this is something they will keep to themselves or they will keep it within a certain circle of people? And I mention this because there seems to be the belief that you have the responsibility of eliminating fraud and that you are some sort of cop on the beat. I don't think that is your function. Am I correct? Mr. Park. No. I think that the Appraisal Subcommittee should have a role in preventing fraud whenever it can and has the authority to do so. But that authority largely resides within the States in terms of dealing with the individual transactions where fraud might occur. Mr. Green. And my point is, however, that if it comes to your attention, if you have the opportunity, you would act. Is that a fair statement? Mr. Park. We would act within the confines of the law, absolutely. And we have tracked fraudulent--reports of appraisal fraud in the States so that we can work with the States when that becomes a real problem, again, through a partnership, not from the perspective of the Federal Government telling the States how they should handle their problems with fraud. Mr. Green. So you are not the supervisor, you work with, you don't dictate to. Mr. Park. It depends on the issue. But when we do have the authority-- Mr. Green. Well, let's just talk about generally speaking. Mr. Park. --we do act in a supervisory role. Mr. Green. Mr. Park, excuse me. Let's talk generally speaking, if we may. Generally speaking, do you supervise the activities of the States? Mr. Park. Yes. Mr. Green. And when you supervise the activities of the States are you responsible for ascertaining whether or not fraud exists? Mr. Park. We are not directly responsible for that, no, sir. Mr. Green. Okay. That is the point that I have been trying to help you make, Mr. Park. You are not the guy who acquires the empirical evidence to move forward. Is that a fair statement? Mr. Park. That is correct. Mr. Green. That is the point, Mr. Park. There are people who seem to be attributing this to you. Mr. Park. Point well made. Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Park. I am going to yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Luetkemeyer. The gentleman yields back. With that, we will go to another gentleman from Missouri. You guys are being inundated with us today. Mr. Clay is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Clay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I wanted to ask the panel, according to an educator at the Appraiser Institute, the average age of an appraiser is 55 years of age and the main barrier for entry into the profession is the requirement of employment. The employment requirement is an appraiser trainee has to work under a certified appraiser for 2,500 hours and a minimum of 2 years. So even if a person completes the educational process successfully, they still face a barrier of finding employment to complete the on-the-job training requirement. My question to the panel is, how can we create an environment to help appraiser trainees to complete the employment requirements to become a certified appraiser? And I guess I will just start with Mr. Park and go down the line. Mr. Park. It is important that the appraisal regulatory system continues to look at new ways to bring people into the profession. There has been a lot of progress made in terms of the requirements for appraisers to enter the profession in terms of increasing those requirements. . Mr. Bunton can speak to this also since it is the Appraiser Qualifications Board that is setting these requirements. But they have established a national uniform licensing exam, they have increased education requirements. And now they are looking at reducing the experience requirements, which historically have been a significant barrier to entry, because it is difficult to find a supervisor to train you as a trainee to get the necessary hours for your credential. Mr. Clay. Thank you. Mr. Bunton. Mr. Bunton. Yes. The problem we have generally is also users of appraisal services do not want to engage trainees. So if I own an appraisal firm, I don't want to have trainees because they are really not much value to me. As far as the experience requirement, 2,000 hours you mentioned, that is sort of a last vestige from an apprenticeship-type operation. We are moving to a profession. And our board is looking at case study courses and also an exam where you could test out essentially of a lot of that time and you become more valuable to an appraiser as a trainee much quicker than the 2,000 hours over 12 months. Mr. Clay. And, Mr. Bunton, I guess one of my concerns is that it brings, it adds an extra burden when you try to strive for diversity in this profession. Being a former realtor, we rely on appraisers quite a bit. So I was wondering, has that issue arisen in your industry and has anyone tried to address it? Mr. Bunton. We have. On several occasions we actually solicit. We have four boards that we have to populate every year, and we solicit it. We solicit minority groups, we solicit all types of people to get as many qualified applicants as we can get in there. Mr. Clay. Thank you. Ms. Trice, anything to add? Ms. Trice. The only thing to add, I think it is a couple of problems. We have set the bar too high. The number of hours required to work with a mentor, you can actually become an airline pilot and have less experience, but you are responsible for several hundred souls, and nobody has ever died in the appraisal process to the best of my knowledge. But the other problem is really an economic one, and we have had a compression of fees. And it is a very complicated topic, but we have a component of Dodd-Frank on customary and reasonable fees that has never been enforced. And so we have increased the requirements for appraisals, but they make about half of what they used to make. So nobody is going to want to enter the profession with that kind of economic environment. Mr. Clay. I see. Mr. Garber has the institute done anything to try to make the workforce-- Mr. Garber. Yes, absolutely we have. It is punitive right now to take on a trainee, very difficult process. We have a lot of--there are rules, regulations have been built up around that process. We do need simplification of that. Those could be modified significantly. We have offered, and we don't agree with The Appraisal Foundation on everything obviously, but an area that we have been talking with them very closely is on the development of an experience alternative or to earn experience in a classroom situation in a tested environment. So to actually enable, where you can't find a mentor-mentee relationship, to actually earn that experience in a classroom under a tested situation. Mr. Clay. Can they complete? Chairman Luetkemeyer. Yes. Mr. Brady. I would just add, training is important. I don't know the number of hours and I am not in the professional business of appraisals, but where you go to the AMCs and you have a pool of appraisers, it doesn't mean that their expertise is new construction or existing. And so we have to maybe look at that more in detail as to if I have a new construction product I get in the pool, they have never done a new construction. So training and continuing education on this process is very important. Mr. Clay. Thank you. Ms. Wagner, anything to add? Ms. Wagner. Just briefly. I think from talking to appraisers in my State, I think that having some compensation for supervisors would be helpful because I think it is very costly for people to bring on new trainees and that they are not getting adequately compensated for that. Mr. Clay. I see. Thank you all very much for your responses. Mr. Chairman, my time it is up. Mr. Park. Could I make one comment to that? Chairman Luetkemeyer. Sure. Go ahead, briefly. Mr. Park. One of the issues that we are grappling with right now is trying to educate lenders on the ability for lenders to use trainees in their transactions. Historically, trainees have served as that force multiplier for appraisers. Once you get a trainee trained to a certain level where they can do the inspections and they can do some of the analysis and data gathering without that supervisor being involved every step of the way, it makes it much more economically viable to bring on trainees. Right now there are requirements that are outside of the Federal Government that limit the ability of trainees to be able to participate. Mr. Clay. Thank you. Chairman Luetkemeyer. Thank you. With that, I have a couple of follow-ups, and then we will wrap up here. Mr. Garber, in your testimony you argue in favor of limiting the activities of The Appraisal Foundation to prevent potential conflicts of interest. Can you explain what those conflicts of interest are? Mr. Garber. Sure. Thanks for the question. Whenever you have a statute that recognizes an entity, obviously, there is great responsibility that is given to that organization, but then there is also a great privilege that comes with it. So if you get special standing and recognition, they are given recognition and powers, the public looks at them in a certain respect as an authority in certain areas. And it is very common to address that for Congress to set forth limitations in particular areas. The limitations are important because it helps level the playing field. It doesn't give one organization an advantage over another. That is where we have been expressing concern relative to the move to create a third board under The Appraisal Foundation, the Appraisal Practices Board. That is a board that was directed by the Appraisal Subcommittee for the foundation to undertake to develop rules around methodologies. At the same time, the foundation was setting up an education arm to offer education around those entities or those valuation advisories. We were concerned that that was essentially setting up a situation where there is too much centralized authority. If you have centralized authority in the area, the full range of valuation, including standards, qualifications and the methodologies, there is just a very strong potential for conflicts of interest to exist on education and on credentialing. And Congress has recognized that, as I said. In the SAFE Act, under the Nationwide Mortgage Licensing System, there is a very strict prohibition for the Conference of State Bank Supervisors to not get involved in education activities. The same thing under the National Association of Registered Agents and Brokers. NARAB has a very similar provision. Because, again, it is a nonprofit organization, it is supposed to be a neutral, it is given special standing in the industry to be a neutral body within that universe. But it comes with responsibilities and privileges, and we ought not set up a situation where we are tilting the scales and giving an advantage to one group or to the other. Chairman Luetkemeyer. Mr. Park, do you want to? Mr. Park. If I may correct the record. That is the second time Mr. Garber indicated that the subcommittee directed The Appraisal Foundation to establish the Appraisal Practices Board. That is not the case. There was a meeting, this predated my time at the subcommittee, but there was a meeting of the subcommittee where there was a discussion regarding the need for appraisers to have additional education regarding--at that time the hot button was declining markets and the Federal regulatory agencies were seeing problems with appraisers' ability to handle appraisals in declining markets. The subcommittee never in any way directed The Appraisal Foundation to establish the Appraisal Practices Board. Chairman Luetkemeyer. Mr. Bunton, I am sure you have a comment. Mr. Bunton. Thank you. I would just like to address the conflict of interest issue. I think their testimony references a course approval program which we put in place primarily at their behest. They also mentioned we shouldn't be in education. They developed courses for us and donated them to us. And as far as the Appraisal Practices Board, most appraisers do not belong to a professional society, and that board issues voluntary guidance, free of charge, no Federal funds. The story behind the story here is that in 2010 they were faced with suspension from the foundation for conduct. They resigned rather than face suspension. So now, while they were once an advocate, they have become an adversary, unlike the other 95 organizations affiliated with us. Mr. Garber. If I could? Chairman Luetkemeyer. Okay. No, we are going to move on. Mr. Park, we want to clarify what you have been saying with regards to the registry. Apparently one of your statements said that you had the ability to take people off, and now you are saying the States are the one that really put people on or off. What is your final statement here? Mr. Park. Under certain conditions the Appraisal Subcommittee does have the ability to remove an appraiser from the national registry. Chairman Luetkemeyer. Okay, what you are saying is under Dodd-Frank you do have the authority to take them off? Mr. Park. Dodd-Frank gave us additional authority to remove appraisers and appraisal management companies from the national registry for up to 90 days in lieu of State action. Chairman Luetkemeyer. Okay. Mr. Park. So if a State was simply refusing to take action against an AMC or an appraiser who had demonstrable issues, then the subcommittee could take such an action. Chairman Luetkemeyer. Okay. So what you are saying is normally the State takes care of all this, but you are the remover of last resort, so to speak? Mr. Park. That is correct. Chairman Luetkemeyer. All right. Very good. Thank you. That ends my questions. I do have some comments here. I appreciate everybody's time today. You guys have been great. It has been a very spirited discussion. And I think it shows that we certainly have some issues here. You know, 2008 showed that there were some problems in the appraisal industry. Dodd-Frank was an attempt to fix it. Like any bill, it is well intentioned. I am sure there are some tweaks that need to be done. Some good things that came out of it and probably not some good things. And so we want to work with you to find solutions to those things that don't work, to make sure that we fix them. We have had everything from blow the system up to just tweak it a little bit. So it has made for an interesting discussion today. At the end of the day, the appraisers need to maintain their independence, but they need some flexibility. Ms. Wagner made a comment a while ago that flexibility is bad and it leads to fraud, which impugned the integrity of every appraiser out there, which I thought was remarkable. It was breathtaking, actually. But I think that generally the appraisers are caught in a bind from the standpoint that what you do is give a snapshot in time of what the value of that property is today. Tomorrow that property will have a different value, it could go up, it could go down. I have a daughter who lives in Denver, Colorado. All of you know Denver is a market where the real estate just keeps going up and up and up. She built a new house 3 years ago and can probably have close to 40 percent, if not 50 percent increase in value in that amount of time. Now, its value, the price of construction hasn't gone up, but the value of the home has gone up. I live in rural Missouri. I can tell you, we have a real problem with appraisers. We have no appraisers in my county, period. We have a county of 25,000 to 30,000 people and no appraisers, zero, in my county. They are gone. I said a while ago I have a friend who is in the business and it is very difficult, as you have talked about, to get past the certification problem. So it tells me we have some difficulties and that the bottom line is we have to have appraisers to make sure that there is a trust in the value of the property and the people who buy it and finance it can believe in the value of that property for that day. And so we want to work with you and we want to continue to have this discussion, and we certainly appreciate all of you being here today and having this, I think, very spirited and very informational discussion. Thank you. The Chair notes that some Members may have additional questions for this panel, which they may wish to submit in writing. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 5 legislative days for Members to submit written questions to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. Also, without objection, Members will have 5 legislative days to submit extraneous materials to the Chair for inclusion in the record. And with that, this hearing is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 11:55 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X November 16, 2016 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]