    [House Hearing, 114 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

      EXAMINING FEDERAL ADMINISTRATION OF THE SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT IN
                                FLINT, MICHIGAN

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                             COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                             AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                FEBRUARY 3, 2016

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 114-148

                                   __________

    Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

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                  COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

                         JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah, Chairman
    JOHN L. MICA, Florida                ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland,
    MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio                  Ranking Minority Member
    JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee       CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
    JIM JORDAN, Ohio                     ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
    TIM WALBERG, Michigan                    Columbia
    JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan               WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
    PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona               STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
    SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee          JIM COOPER, Tennessee
    TREY GOWDY, South Carolina           GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
    BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas              MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania
    CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming           TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
    THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
    MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina         BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan
    RON DeSANTIS, Florida                TED LIEU, California
    MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina        BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey
    KEN BUCK, Colorado                   STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands
    MARK WALKER, North Carolina          MARK DeSAULNIER, California
    ROD BLUM, Iowa                       BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania
    JODY B. HICE, Georgia                PETER WELCH, Vermont
    STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma              MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico
    EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia
    GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
    WILL HURD, Texas
    GARY J. PALMER, Alabama

                       Jennifer Hemingway, Staff Director
                        Andrew Dockham, General Counsel
             William McGrath, Interior Subcommittee Staff Director
                        Sharon Casey, Deputy Chief Clerk
                     David Rapallo, Minority Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page
    Hearing held on February 3, 2016.................................     1

                                   WITNESSES

    The Hon. Dan Kildee, Representative from Michigan U.S. House of
      Representatives
        Oral Statement...............................................     8
    Mr. Joel Beauvais, Acting Deputy Assistant Administrator, Office
      of Water, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
        Oral Statement...............................................    13
        Written Statement............................................    15
    Mr. Keith Creagh, Director, Department of Environmental Quality,
      State of Michigan
        Oral Statement...............................................    18
        Written Statement............................................    20
    Mr. Marc Edwards, Charles P. Lundsford Professor of Environmental
      and Water Resources Engineering Virginia Polytechnic Institute
      and State University
        Oral Statement...............................................    27
        Written Statement............................................    28
    Ms. LeeAnne Walters, Resident of Flint, Michigan
        Oral Statement...............................................   130
        Written Statement............................................   132

                                    APPENDIX

    2015-06-24 Mr. Miguel A. Del Toral EPA Memo submitted by Mr.
      Chaffetz.......................................................   186
    2015-04-27 Mr. Miguel Del Toral to Thomas Poy Email submitted by
      Mr. Chaffetz...................................................   195
    2015-07-01 Ms. Susan Hedman EPA to Mr. Dayne Walling, City of
      Flint, Email submitted by Mr. Chaffetz.........................   196
    2016-02-03 Democratic Members to Mr. Chaffetz Requesting Governor
      Snyder as Witness submitted by Mr. Cummings....................   197
    The Flint Water Crisis: Myth vs. Fact............................   201

      EXAMINING FEDERAL ADMINISTRATION OF THE SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT IN
                                FLINT, MICHIGAN

                                  ----------

                          Wednesday, February 3, 2016

                      House of Representatives,
                  Committee on Oversight and Government Reform,
                                                       Washington, D.C.
        The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:57 a.m., in Room
    2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jason Chaffetz
    [chairman of the committee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Chaffetz, Mica, Duncan, Jordan,
    Walberg, Amash, Gosar, DesJarlais, Lummis, Meadows, DeSantis,
    Mulvaney, Blum, Hice, Russell, Carter, Grothman, Palmer,
    Cummings, Maloney, Norton, Clay, Lynch, Cooper, Connolly,
    Cartwright, Duckworth, Kelly, Lawrence, Lieu, Watson Coleman,
    Plaskett, DeSaulnier, Boyle, Welch, and Lujan Grisham.
        Also Present: Representatives Griffith, Conyers, and
    Jackson Lee.
        Chairman Chaffetz. The Committee on Oversight and
    Government Reform will come to order.
        Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a
    recess at any time.
        The chairman is responsible under the rules of the House
    and the rules of the committee to maintain order and preserve
    decorum in the committee room. We appreciate your participation
    here today, but I would remind everybody that this is a
    congressional hearing and there is a certain decorum that we
    would appreciate everybody's participation in. I believe there
    are some people in the overflow room and whatnot, but we're
    glad to do this and have everybody here today.
        Prior to our opening statements, I want to address some
    people who probably should be here, that were invited to be
    here, and others that members on both sides wanted to be here.
    We have two panels today. I think this will be a good first
    step moving forward. Some people have wanted the Governor to be
    here. Some people have wanted the EPA Administrator to be here.
    We are going to have this hearing today, we have documents that
    will be provided by the EPA and others, and we will move
    forward from there.
        Let me address a few people that were anticipated to be
    here.
        Miguel Del Toral is the program manager for Region 5, Water
    Division, at the EPA. This, by all appearances, at least what
    I've seen so far, is a good person who is doing good work and
    made the right moves at the right time.
        Ms. LeeAnne Walters, who we're going to hear testimony on
    our second panel from, contacted the EPA in February of 2015--
    now, keep the timeline in place here--February of 2015. Mr. Del
    Toral was very responsive and came to her house and tested the
    water in that same month.
        He was sent an invitation to appear as a witness before the
    committee; we did that last week. But in further discussions
    with the EPA and given his excessive and appropriate
    responsiveness to the committee, we have come to understand
    he's very active in the cleanup efforts as we speak. We
    therefore have excused him today and communicated to the EPA,
    after good discussions with the EPA, that they would provide
    all of his emails by the end of this week. We think that is a
    good and productive step forward. We did not compel or push to
    have Mr. Del Toral come before us today. And in consultation
    with the Democrats, I think this is the right move.
        Susan Hedman is the former Region 5 administrator for the
    EPA. She is no stranger to the committee. July of 2015, we held
    a hearing about mismanagement and retaliation at the EPA in
    Region 5, which is based in Chicago. This has been a problem
    for the committee, her actions in management. Again, she is the
    former EPA administrator for Region 5.
        Now, I have a few documents that I'd like to enter into the
    record.
        So I would ask unanimous consent to enter a June 24, 2015,
    email, memo, from Miguel Del Toral to Thomas Poy, who's the
    chief of the drinking water branch. Part of this email says,
    ``Recent drinking water sample results indicate the presence of
    high lead results in the drinking water.''
        Without objection, that will be entered into the record.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I also have an April 27 email from
    Miguel Del Toral to Thomas Poy. ``Flint has not been operating
    in a corrosive control treatment, which is very concerning
    given the likelihood of lead service lines in the city.''
        Without objection, I'll enter that into the record.
        Chairman Chaffetz. We have another email here that is dated
    July 1 from Susan Hedman to Dayne Walling, who was the mayor of
    Flint. ``The preliminary draft report should not have been
    released outside of the agency.''
        Without objection, we'll enter that into the record.
        Chairman Chaffetz. And another one from Susan Hedman to
    Dayne Walling: ``I'm not inclined for my staff to have any
    further communication with the ACLU representative. We need to
    focus on finalizing the report. In the meantime, however, I
    have no objection to the city letting him know that the report
    he was given was a preliminary draft and that he would be
    premature to draw any conclusions based on that draft.''
        Chairman Chaffetz. Again, this is July. You'll see that
    this has been redacted, the top part. The EPA has agreed that
    by the end of the week we would get these nonredacted versions
    of these emails.
        Without objection, we'll enter these four documents into
    the record.
        The committee requested a transcribed interview with Ms.
    Hedman in a letter sent to the EPA last week. Shortly after the
    extent of the crisis in Flint became public, Ms. Hedman
    resigned her position late in January. Her resignation became
    effective on Monday. The EPA has agreed to provide all of Ms.
    Hedman's emails, again, by the end of the week.
        Today--this one right here--we are issuing a subpoena for
    Susan Hedman to come up here before the committee and
    participate in a deposition. This will happen later this month.
        Darnell Earley, the former emergency manager for the city
    of Flint--he is the former emergency manager for Flint,
    Michigan. He was appointed to the position in 2013, and he was
    tasked with overseeing Flint's finances. Mr. Earley left his
    position in January of 2015.
        The Flint city council voted seven to one to make the
    transition from Detroit city water. The committee sent Mr.--
    he's vital to understanding what happened and how these
    decisions were made.
        The committee sent Mr. Earley an invite letter last week.
    He knew that this was happening, and he knew he was invited to
    appear as a witness before the committee. Most of the people
    that appear before the committee, we do not need to compel them
    to attend. Participation, though, before this committee is not
    optional. When you get invited to come to the Oversight and
    Government Reform Committee, you are going to show up.
        We were told at, I believe, 7:50 p.m. on Monday night that
    he would not attend. On Tuesday, I issued a subpoena. Normally,
    these are done electronically with the counsel of record. His
    attorney refused service. We're calling on the U.S. Marshals to
    hunt him down and give him that subpoena.
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Chaffetz. Today, we issued a new subpoena. He will
    appear, and he will be here to do a deposition later this
    month. This subpoena will also be issued today, but we're going
    to need the help of the United States Marshals.
        I forgot to issue one other document. I'd ask unanimous
    consent to enter into the record--this is from Susan Hedman.
    This is a December 10, 2015, Natural Resources Defense Council
    petition back in October to get the EPA to do its job. Again,
    further delaying it. Let the members and the public look at
    this. But I ask unanimous consent to enter that into the
    record.
        Chairman Chaffetz. So, with that business in mind, before
    we get to the opening statements, I don't know if Mr. Cummings
    has any business or things that he wants to enter into the
    record.
        Mr. Cummings. No. No. I'm good.
        Chairman Chaffetz. With that, let us now transition. I
    appreciate the indulgence of the committee, but I think it's
    important the members understand where we are with subpoenas,
    with people's participation, and the intent of the committee to
    participate in these depositions.
        So now let's go to the opening statements. I would like to
    yield to the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Walberg, for his
    comments.
        Mr. Walberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank you for
    taking this issue, this hearing and subsequent, very seriously.
    It is a serious issue.
        I recognize my good friend and colleague, Representative
    Kildee, the gentleman from Flint, the efforts that you've
    carried on, it's important. For Michigan it's important, but I
    would mention to my other colleagues, this is important for the
    United States. We have infrastructure needs, we have challenges
    with government at all levels all around this country, and we
    need to take it seriously. And so to Mr. Kildee, thank you for
    raising this.
        The Flint water crisis is indeed a human tragedy. It's not
    a natural disaster. It's a human disaster brought on by
    failures of humans but, I think, as well, brought on by
    failures of government at all levels. And we are here as a
    Government Oversight and Reform Committee to do the very thing
    that's necessary, to do oversight and then reform, to make it
    right where we can.
        Sadly, as I think as a grandfather and father, I wouldn't
    want my kids or my grandkids to have to drink this type of
    water. It's not----
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Walberg. It's not the thing we should expect, in
    America especially. But it has happened. And now the issue is,
    how do we make it right? How do we move forward?
        The lives of young children will be impacted for years to
    come, sadly. The dreams and aspirations coming from their
    parents will be impacted. We're here today to find answers, to
    get answers and help for the people of Flint but also for the
    people of the United States. We must get all the facts and get
    them right. There must be accountability where accountability
    needs to be taken. These children and families deserve nothing
    less.
        Mr. Chairman, I want to be clear: Again, this was a failure
    of government--key failure of government. And just as this
    crisis was a failure at every level, the effort to make things
    right must be a cooperative effort at every level, as well.
        The safety and well-being of our citizens is not a
    Republican or a Democrat or an Independent issue. It's a human
    issue, it's an American issue that affects Americans' lives.
    Politicizing this tragedy won't solve the problem, and it won't
    help the children of Flint.
        I make my commitment, Mr. Chairman--I make it to you, Mr.
    Kildee, as well--that this will be an effort that's bipartisan.
    I think you've seen our delegation step up, even this morning
    with the introduction of legislation to assist in this deal.
        I hope today's hearing will begin to shine the light on how
    this tragedy happened, who was involved, how we can make it
    right, and how we can never let it happen again so we can move
    forward together to fix and ensure that this American ideal
    that allows people to be free, safe, secure, and upwardly
    mobile happens to a great degree by principles developed in
    this hearing.
        Mr. Chairman, I thank you, and I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you.
        I would remind the audience, displays of approval or
    disapproval, clapping--not necessarily appropriate for this
    committee hearing. So if you would please refrain from applause
    and whatnot, we would all appreciate it.
        This is the United States of America. This isn't supposed
    to happen here. We're not some third-world country where we get
    100,000 people who get poisoned--poisoned--for long periods of
    time. I can't even begin to express--I don't know how my wife
    and I would deal with our kids being poisoned for so long. I
    physically cannot even understand or comprehend what the
    parents and the loved ones and the individuals who have been
    drinking that water have been going through.
        And I'm disappointed in the response at the local level, at
    the State level, and at the Federal level. There's a failing at
    every level. It's absolutely, fundamentally, and totally wrong.
    The public has a right to be outraged. ``Outraged'' doesn't
    even begin to cover it. So I don't know how we fix this, but it
    has to be fixed.
        We're going to hear from one of our witnesses today, and I
    chatted with her for a moment before, Ms. Walters.
        And I appreciate your coming before the committee and doing
    what you did early on in the process. I really do.
        And I look forward to hearing from our witnesses. We can't
    let this happen. It should have never happened in the first
    place.
        I'm going to yield back, and let's now turn the time to our
    ranking member, Mr. Cummings, for his opening comments.
        Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Chairman, the--Mr. Kildee, I really appreciate you and
    Mrs. Lawrence for all of your efforts, for requesting this
    hearing and making it happen.
        And, Mr. Chairman, I want to yield 3 minutes to my
    distinguished colleague, Mrs. Lawrence from Michigan, for her
    opening.
        Mrs. Lawrence. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to Ranking Member
    Cummings. I want to personally thank you for holding this
    hearing.
        In my letter to the chairman on January the 12th of this
    year, I asked this hearing examine the actions of key decision-
    makers involved in the development of this drinking water
    contamination crisis. I never thought this could happen in
    America in this day and age in our great country and our great
    home of Michigan, where we're surrounded by fresh water and the
    Great Lakes.
        Every American has the right to three basic needs from
    their government: clean air to breathe, safe food to eat, and
    air that they can breathe that will not harm their bodies. We
    in government have failed them in providing these basic needs.
    We've also failed their trust.
        I'm pleased that Ms. Walters is here, because she puts a
    face on this tragedy. She, like so many mothers and residents
    of Flint, deserve to be heard. They're putting their trust in
    the government to fully investigate the wrongs that this city
    and these citizens of America have suffered. And today we have
    a chance to start rebuilding that trust.
        I submit to you, Mr. Chairman, that while we're doing the
    right thing in holding this hearing--and I appreciate your
    swift reaction to my request for this hearing--it's difficult
    to correct the mistakes of the past unless we call the
    decision-makers in this manmade disaster and ask them what
    happened, why did it happen, and when did you know, and what
    did you do when you found out about it.
        I want to publicly renew my request for another hearing,
    and I'm so encouraged to hear that there will be. I strongly
    believe that Governor Rick Snyder, Dan Wyant, Mr. Earley, and
    other Michigan State officials directly related to this
    devastating event, before this body, they should come and they
    should answer the questions.
        Mr. Cummings. Hear, hear.
        Mrs. Lawrence. The people of Flint, to Congressman Kildee,
    I stand with you in this fight. I know that I've walked through
    Flint, met with so many people, and the heart and the courage
    that you're having during this crisis. I want you to know that
    I'm standing with you, I will fight for you, and, Mr. Kildee, I
    will be right there with you.
        My objective is that never again in America. We can fix
    this, but we have to have those who made the decisions come
    forward and give answers.
        And I yield back my time.
        Mr. Cummings. Mr. Chairman, we are the last line of
    defense. I do thank you for calling this hearing, because there
    are some chairmen that wouldn't have called it.
        Mrs. Lawrence. That's true.
        Mr. Cummings. And I mean that. They wouldn't have called
    it. But you did.
        And, finally, I want to say a special thank you to the many
    residents of Flint, Michigan, who traveled all the way here to
    Washington, D.C., to attend today's hearing. And to you, we
    thank you.
        And, Reverend Sharpton, I thank you for being here.
        I welcome you all, and I thank you so much.
        I believe that we have a moral obligation to conduct a
    comprehensive investigation of this crisis. And let's be
    abundantly clear: It is a crisis. We need to determine how
    children in the United States of America in the year of 2016
    have been exposed to drinking water poisoned with lead, and not
    by accident--by the actions of their own government.
        I ask every member of this committee to take a moment and
    imagine what your reaction would be if this happened in your
    district instead of Flint. Ask yourselves, would I tolerate it?
    Of course you wouldn't. You would demand answers. You would
    demand that we examine the actions of everyone. And when I say
    ``everyone,'' I mean everyone. You would hear testimony from
    everyone involved, and you would obtain documents from everyone
    involved.
        The problem is that today we are missing the most critical
    witness of all, the Governor of the State of Michigan, Rick
    Snyder. He is not here.
        Governor Snyder was the driving force behind Michigan's
    emergency manager law, which he signed in 2011 and invoked to
    take over the city of Flint from its local elected leaders. The
    Governor handpicked appointees to run the city, and they
    decided to use water from the Flint River. He also led the
    Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, which failed to
    protect the people of Flint, according to the Governor's own
    task force charged with investigating this crisis.
        Obviously, Governor Snyder should have to answer for his
    decisions. We asked the chairman to invite him today, but he
    would not. We asked the chairman to give us a date in the
    future for a hearing with Governor Snyder, but he would not. We
    asked the chairman to send the same kind of document requests
    to Governor Snyder that he sent to the EPA, but he would not do
    that either.
        We want answers from everybody, from the EPA straight on
    down to the local officials. That's the way we get to the
    bottom of this crisis.
        The problem with this approach is that it undermines the
    credibility of Congress, our committee, and this investigation.
    That is totally unacceptable to the people of Flint. It should
    be totally unacceptable to the people of this Congress and
    totally unacceptable to the people of the United States of
    America.
        As I said before, we are the last line of defense. And,
    certainly, we want to hear from the EPA, I want to hear from
    the EPA. Based on what I've seen, the EPA officials should have
    moved much more aggressively after they detected the heightened
    levels of lead. But States are the primary enforcement agencies
    for the Safe Drinking Water Act, not the EPA. The chairman
    argues that we should let the State continue its own
    investigation, but I disagree. The State has failed the people
    of Flint. Now it's up to us, all of us.
        And let me be clear: If we act selectively for political
    reasons, then we become a part of the problem. The information
    has been brought to us, and we now have a duty to investigate
    all aspects of the crisis. We simply do not have the right to
    remain silent. We do not have the right not to act. Government
    broke it; government must fix it.
        And so, today, every Democrat on the committee has joined
    together to sign this letter to the chairman. It invokes our
    right under the House rules to demand a hearing with witnesses
    of our choosing. In this letter, we officially request
    testimony from Governor Snyder and the three key emergency
    managers that he appointed to govern Flint: Edward Kurtz, Jerry
    Ambrose, and Darnell Earley.
        I ask that our letter be inserted into the official hearing
    record, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
        Mr. Cummings. I ask that it be inserted into the official
    hearing record.
        And our ultimate goal must be to serve the interests of the
    children and the families of Flint. And so we do not know the
    full extent of the damage that was caused, but we know it is
    grave. Today, the committee received a letter from the American
    Academy of Pediatrics. The letter warned that thousands of
    children under the age of 6 have now been potentially exposed
    to lead through the Flint drinking water.
        The letter says this: ``As you know, the city of Flint has
    long been an impoverished community beset by a host of economic
    and infrastructure hardships. This adversity coupled with
    widespread lead exposure means that Flint's children will
    require significant help in coping with the impact of lead on
    their physical and behavioral health and development, their
    schooling, and much more,'' end of quote.
        As I close, Mr. Chairman, it is our job here on this
    committee and in this Congress to make sure this help is
    provided to these kids--but, Mr. Chairman, not only to the
    kids, but to the adults and every citizen of Flint and to
    ensure that they are not forgotten after these hearings end.
        And that is why I say this is not a political issue, this
    is a moral issue. We have to investigate what happened at all
    levels, including the State, and then we have to turn to
    accountability and reform.
        Last but not least, Mr. Chairman, there's a fellow who had
    a song that I used to love. He never had any hits in my
    district, but he sang a song--and his name was Cat Stevens. And
    Cat Stevens said, ``Oh very young, what will you bring us this
    time? You're only dancing on this earth for a short time. Oh
    very young, what will you leave us this time?''
        And I've often said that our children are the living
    messages we send to a future we will never see. The question
    is: What will they leave us, and how will we send them into
    that future? Will we send them strong? Will we send them
    hopeful? Will we rob them of their destiny? Will we rob them of
    their dreams? No, we will not do that.
        And I am proud of this committee for holding this hearing.
    We will get to the bottom of this. And, as Mr. Walberg said, we
    will do it in a bipartisan way.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        You should have applauded that, but I appreciate you
    listening to me.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Cummings. Thank you.
        Chairman Chaffetz. All right. So we're good now. All right.
    Thank you.
        And that's what I love about Mr. Cummings and this
    committee. We have passionate people on both sides who care
    deeply about their country. And nobody--nobody--wants to see
    this thing happen. And we're going to have a good hearing
    today.
        The chair will hold the record open for 5 legislative days
    for any member who would like to submit a written statement.
        The chair also notes the presence today of the former
    chairman of this committee, Mr. Conyers of Michigan. We would
    ask unanimous consent to allow him to participate in today's
    hearing. Without objection, so ordered.
        We're also pleased to note the presence of Congressman
    Morgan Griffith of Virginia. We appreciate his joining us
    today. I ask unanimous consent that he, too, be allowed to join
    this panel. Without objection, so ordered.
        We will have two panels today. It has been the practice of
    the House and common courtesy to our colleagues in a situation
    like this to allow a Member who represents this district--Mr.
    Dan Kildee, who represents the Fifth District of Michigan,
    which includes the city of Flint, we have asked him to
    participate today to give his perspective. And we'll now
    recognize him for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Kildee.

                           WITNESS STATEMENTS

                  STATEMENT OF THE HON. DANIEL KILDEE

        Mr. Kildee. First of all, thank you, Mr. Chairman, for
    holding this hearing and for allowing me to make some comments
    on what's happening in my hometown.
        And to the ranking member, Mr. Cummings, thank you for your
    support and your guidance and your allegiance to the people of
    the city of Flint.
        And to my colleague, Congresswoman Lawrence, with whom I've
    worked on this from the very beginning, I just want to say
    thanks for having my back and the back of the people of the
    city of Flint.
        I'll try to be brief. I know we have really the heroes of
    this story, some of them, on the panel that I'm anxious to
    listen to.
        But Flint's my hometown. I grew up in Flint. I raised my
    children in Flint. When we leave here at the end of every week,
    I fly home to Flint. I'm a son of this town. And so it breaks
    my heart to see what's happening.
        And it breaks my heart not just because of what has been
    inflicted upon the people of Flint but because it was an
    entirely avoidable set of circumstances. Better action by
    people in government could have protected the people of Flint,
    and those players failed.
        And I appreciate the outrage that Members of Congress, my
    colleagues, have expressed. And that outrage has come from both
    sides of the aisle. But my hope is that that outrage translates
    into something more than just sharing the misery of the people
    of Flint or sympathy for the people of Flint, but we need to
    provide help for the folks in Flint.
        Flint's a strong community. We have been through really
    tough times, and we will get through this too. But we have to
    have resources from the people who did this to Flint in order
    to create a path forward for the people and especially for the
    children of my hometown.
        Right now, the water is still not yet safe to drink in
    Flint. High levels of lead continue to show up in testing.
        The reason I'm here and the reason I wanted to make some
    comments is that I want to make sure that, as this committee
    pursues its responsibility, that we focus on the facts of this
    case and make sure that those guide the conclusions that we
    make.
        It was mentioned that in Flint we have had an emergency
    manager. That's not just a small anecdote here. Emergency
    managers in Michigan have absolute authority over local
    governments. So when we talk about failure of government at
    every level, let's just be clear about one point, one very
    important point: Every decision that was made for the city of
    Flint that relates to this crisis was made by a State-appointed
    emergency manager.
        So when referring to ``local decisions''--there are some
    who are trying to obfuscate responsibility for this crisis by
    saying these were local decisions--they were local decisions
    made by a State emergency manager. The mayor of the city has no
    authority. The city council in Flint, zero authority to make
    any decisions. That's an important point.
        Making matters worse, the reason an emergency manager was
    required in Flint in the first place is largely because of,
    obviously, big factors over time--the loss of our manufacturing
    base--but, at the same time, the State of Michigan cut an
    essential element of city resources. It cut the money that goes
    to support cities from its budget.
        The city has a $50 million general fund, and, over the last
    decade, $50 million of direct revenue sharing from the State to
    the city was eliminated, throwing the city into a financial
    crisis, precipitating the appointment by the State of an
    emergency manager to take over the city. The State that helped
    bankrupt the city is now sent in to try to take it over to get
    it right.
        It was the State emergency manager that made the decision
    to switch the city of Flint to the Flint River water source.
    And it was the emergency manager that had 100-percent control
    of all departments of city government, including the department
    responsible for making sure that the water was properly
    treated, and that emergency manager failed.
        Let me just show you one exhibit just so that you have an
    understanding. These are facts. This is the order by the
    emergency manager to switch to the Flint River.
        And, again, there's a public relations campaign that's
    underway right now to try to say these were local decisions or,
    no, it was actually the EPA, to deflect responsibility from the
    State of Michigan. This was a decision by an emergency manager
    in Flint to go to the Flint River water source. It was a
    critical decision that was made that precipitated this entire
    crisis.
        So, after that switch was made, citizens began to speak up.
    In fact, one of them, LeeAnne Walters, is here and will be on
    the next panel. She's one of the heroes of this story. And let
    me be clear: The heroes in the story of Flint are those who
    brought it to light. And they're not public officials. They're
    citizens, they're activists, they're people who would not be
    quiet. And LeeAnne Walters is one of them, and you will hear
    from her.
        She went to the DEQ, ultimately had to go to the EPA, as
    the chairman had indicated, to raise this question. And what
    was the response of the Michigan Department of Environmental
    Quality when these issues were raised? To try to discredit all
    the voices that were calling this problem to their attention,
    whether it was Dr. Mark Edwards from Virginia Tech, who you
    will hear from--the State of Michigan tried to discredit his
    research, a guy who'd spent really his career on clean water.
    Tried to discredit the citizens as if they were just unhappy
    citizens. They had lead in their water that was going to their
    children.
        Again, there's an effort to try to create some false
    equivalency of responsibility. I am critical of the EPA in this
    case, don't get me wrong. In fact, I have legislation that I'm
    introducing that hopefully will be bipartisan, taken up soon,
    that would require much greater transparency by the EPA. I wish
    that as soon as the EPA discovered that there were problems
    with the water in Flint that they would shout it from the
    mountain top that there's a problem in Flint. Instead, they
    kept insisting that the Michigan Department of Environmental
    Quality do its job, which it failed to do.
        One of the questions that has come up is why didn't the EPA
    insist that the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality
    require the corrosion control to be used in Flint. Well,
    there's a document that I have in my hand, which I'm submitting
    to you. It's a memo from the Michigan Department of
    Environmental Quality to the EPA saying that--and this is dated
    February 27 of 2015, almost a year ago--indicating that Flint
    has an optimized corrosion control program. They did not.
        So to hold the EPA accountable, I want to hold them
    accountable for transparency, but let's make sure we get the
    facts right. It was the Michigan Department of Environmental
    Quality telling the EPA that they had this thing under control,
    that they were using corrosion control in Flint, when they were
    not.
        I would have preferred the EPA had let me know, had let the
    community know that they had this data and let us force the DEQ
    to do its job. They didn't, and that's their failure. But it is
    not their failure to not insist that a corrosion control
    process be implemented. They continued to ask and they were
    told it was under control when it was not.
        So, when this all became public, another one of the heroes
    of this story, Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha--she is a pediatrician in
    Flint--she began to look at blood levels in children, and it
    showed elevated blood lead levels in children in Flint. She
    released her data, and what was the response of the State of
    Michigan? To try to discredit this pediatrician, who has
    devoted her entire life to the health of children, just trying
    to do her job for the kids of Flint.
        There is a continuous effort to try to minimize this
    problem as if it did not exist.
        There's a lot of questions about who knew what and when.
    And that's really an important part of this. We have an email
    from the chief of staff of the Governor's office back in July
    of 2015 raising this question and saying that he thought that
    basically the people in Flint were getting blown off by the
    State. So they knew about this back then and failed to act.
        So let me just conclude by saying a couple things.
        I'm really concerned that we get to the facts on this, not
    just because I want to know who should be fired, who should be
    subpoenaed, who should be blamed, who should be prosecuted.
    Justice comes in those forms for sure, but justice for the
    people of Flint comes by making it right for the people of
    Flint. And the only way we can make it right is to make sure we
    know who did this.
        And for anybody who has been paying attention to this case
    back home in Michigan, there's really no doubt about who's
    responsible. The State of Michigan was responsible, as the
    ranking member said, has primacy for the enforcement of the
    lead and copper rule. The State of Michigan was running the
    city of Flint itself at the time that these decisions were
    made. And the State of Michigan denied to the citizens of the
    State and to the citizens of Flint that this was a problem.
        At one point, a State official, after the lead data had
    already been made known to them, told people in Flint that they
    should just relax. Nine thousand children in Flint with water
    with elevated lead levels going into their bodies. Relax?
        Yes, this is a failure of government, but this false
    equivalency that somehow local officials, who had no power, and
    the EPA, who I agree should have done more, should be held
    accountable for this misses the point. This was a State
    failure.
        And you'll hear from folks today. And the current head of
    the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, whom I know,
    is a good man. He was not in the position at the time these
    decisions were made and can't really testify to what happened
    then in real time. We were there. LeeAnne Walters was there.
    Mark Edwards was there. Dr. Mona was there. The people of Flint
    knew what was happening.
        So the State, to my point of view, my perspective, has a
    moral responsibility not to just apologize. The Governor has
    already apologized. In his State of the State, he said he
    acknowledged responsibility. But the way I was raised is that
    when you do something wrong to someone, something that has a
    consequence, you do apologize for sure, but also, if you have
    it in your power to make it right for that person, to make it
    right for those people, you have to stand up and do that. So
    far, we haven't seen that.
        We need the pipes fixed in Flint. In fact, the Governor
    should write a check tomorrow for the $60 million that the
    mayor of Flint has asked for to replace the lead service lines.
    He's sitting on a billion-dollar surplus. He should ask for
    that money tomorrow and then should commit to not just fix the
    infrastructure but to make it right for these kids, give them
    the kind of help that any child with a developmental hurdle to
    overcome should get--early childhood education, good nutrition,
    lots of support, behavioral support, not just now, not just
    next year, but for the entire trajectory of their developmental
    cycle.
        This is a tragedy. It can not be fixed. But those who did
    this to Flint can stand up and make it right. And I would ask
    this committee to do everything within your power to find the
    facts. And if you do and if you let those facts lead you to the
    conclusion that they should, you will find that the State of
    Michigan bears the responsibility to the greatest extent. And
    they should be held to account, but they also should be held to
    make it right.
        With that, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to
    speak, and I yield back. Thank you.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you for your participation and
    your passion. All those documents that you referred to will be
    entered into the record.
        Chairman Chaffetz. What we will do now is recess for
    approximately 4 minutes, so don't go anywhere. But the clerks
    need to reset for panel number two, and we will go from there.
    The committee stands in recess.
        [recess.]
        Chairman Chaffetz. The committee will come to order.
        The committee will now recognize the second panel. I'm
    pleased to welcome Mr. Joel Beauvais, the Acting Deputy
    Assistant Administrator of the Office of Water at the United
    States Environmental Protection Agency; Mr. Keith Creagh is the
    director of the Department of Environmental Quality for the
    State of Michigan; Mr. Marc Edwards, the Charles P. Lundsford
    Professor of Environmental and Water Resources Engineering at
    the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University; and
    Ms. LeeAnne Walters, a resident and parent from Flint,
    Michigan.
        We welcome you all. We thank you for your participation
    today.
        Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses will be sworn
    before they testify. If you will please rise and raise your
    right hand.
        Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you will
    give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
    truth?
        Thank you. You may be seated.
        Let the record reflect that all witnesses answered in the
    affirmative.
        In order to allow time for further discussion and
    questioning by members, we would appreciate your limiting your
    opening comments to no more than 5 minutes. And your entire
    written statement will be made part of the record.
        Mr. Beauvais, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                       STATEMENT OF JOEL BEAUVAIS

        Mr. Beauvais. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chairman,
    Ranking Member Cummings, distinguished members of the
    committee. My name is Joel Beauvais, and I currently serve as
    Deputy Assistant Administrator of EPA's Office of Water. Thank
    you for the opportunity to testify about EPA's response to the
    drinking water crisis in Flint, Michigan.
        I spent the day yesterday in Flint with Administrator
    McCarthy and members of EPA's response team on the ground. We
    met with Mayor Weaver, Dr. Hanna-Attisha, and other community
    leaders and members.
        The situation in Flint is critical and demands urgent and
    sustained action at all levels of government to protect the
    public and help the city recover. EPA is intensely engaged in
    work to restore safe drinking water in Flint in coordination
    with the broader Federal response effort.
        What happened in Flint was avoidable and should never have
    happened.
        Under the Safe Drinking Water Act, Congress directed EPA to
    set national standards but assigned primary responsibility to
    the States to implement and enforce the law. EPA maintains
    Federal oversight of State programs. That system, while
    imperfect, has achieved major gains in drinking water safety
    nationwide.
        The situation that gave rise to the current crisis in Flint
    of a large public water system switching from purchasing
    treated water to using an untreated water source is highly
    unusual. Under Federal regulations, the city was required to
    obtain prior approval for the switch from the Michigan
    Department of Environmental Quality. MDEQ advised the city of
    Flint that corrosion control treatment was not necessary.
    Failure to implement such treatment resulted in leaching of
    lead into the city's drinking water. EPA regional staff urged
    MDEQ to address the lack of corrosion control but encountered
    resistance.
        Delays in taking the actions needed to treat Flint's
    drinking water properly and in informing the public of ongoing
    health risks have had serious consequences. All parties
    involved need to take steps to understand how this happened and
    to ensure that it never happens again.
        Several reviews and investigations, including a U.S.
    Department of Justice investigation, are underway in Michigan.
    Administrator McCarthy has asked EPA's inspector general to
    undertake an independent review of EPA's response and its
    oversight of MDEQ. EPA looks forward to receiving and acting
    promptly upon the results of that review.
        Administrator McCarthy also issued an agency-wide elevation
    policy directing EPA's leadership to encourage prompt and
    decisive action to address critical public health concerns.
    Further, we are committed to engaging with States, system
    operators, and other stakeholders to identify and address
    lessons from Flint and other potential drinking water risks.
        EPA is working hard to address the public health emergency
    in Flint. Since last October, our Flint Safe Drinking Water
    Task Force has provided expert technical assistance to the city
    and MDEQ on corrosion control treatment and proper lead
    testing. In November, EPA announced that we are conducting an
    audit of MDEQ's drinking water program to assess its
    performance and identify needed changes.
        And, on January 21, EPA issued an emergency order under the
    Safe Drinking Water Act directing the State of Michigan and
    MDEQ and the city of Flint to take actions necessary to ensure
    that corrosion control is re-optimized and that the city
    establishes the capacity to operate its drinking water system
    in compliance with the law.
        Following President Obama's emergency declaration in
    January, the administration has deployed a multi-agency
    response effort in Flint. EPA has established a significant
    presence on the ground, including scientists, water quality
    experts, response personnel, and community engagement
    coordinators.
        In addition to providing technical assistance through our
    task force, EPA has launched a multiprong drinking water
    sampling effort to assess and support ongoing work to restore
    Flint's system. We are sharing information with the public in a
    transparent and timely way and will continue to work with the
    city, the State, and the community to get Flint's system back
    on track.
        In addition to our work in Flint, EPA is committed to
    strengthening the lead and copper rule, which covers
    approximately 68,000 systems nationwide. We are working on
    revisions to the rule. Last December, we received extensive
    recommendations from our National Drinking Water Advisory
    Council and other concerned stakeholders. We will carefully
    consider this input and the national experience in implementing
    the rule, including the events in Flint, as we develop proposed
    improvements. In the nearer term, we will be working with
    States and other stakeholders to take near-term actions to
    strengthen implementation of the existing rule.
        Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I welcome
    any questions.
        [prepared statement of Mr. Beauvais follows:]

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        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you.
        Mr. Creagh, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                       STATEMENT OF KEITH CREAGH

        Mr. Creagh. Thank you, Chairman Chaffetz, Ranking Member
    Cummings, and members of the Committee on Oversight Government
    Reform. Thank you for the opportunity to be here today to
    discuss the Flint water crisis.
        My name is Keith Creagh, and since January 4, 2016, I have
    served as the director of the Michigan Department of
    Environmental Quality.
        I want to start by apologizing to the residents of Flint.
    In retrospect, government at all levels should have done more.
    We must fully investigate what happened in order to make sure
    it will never happen again. In addition, and most urgently, we
    must fix the problem for the people of Flint.
        This is a complex issue due in part to multiple levels of
    government oversight. The city of Flint is responsible for
    daily operations of the water plant and the distribution
    system, including identifying sampling locations, collecting
    samples, and certifying that the samples meet the criteria of
    the lead and copper rule. The State of Michigan is responsible
    for ensuring compliance with the lead and copper rule and the
    Safe Drinking Water Act. The U.S. EPA sets national drinking
    water standards, provides oversight to make sure those
    standards are met, and audits the State programs.
        In Flint, the implementation of the Federal lead and copper
    rule was ineffective in protecting public health. When the
    first round of lead sampling came back at 6 parts per billion
    in January 2015, corrosion treatment was not implemented.
    Regardless of the testing schedule allowed by the EPA rule, in
    hindsight, when the lead levels began to rise, corrosion
    treatment should have been required by the Department of
    Environmental Quality.
        As the Michigan auditor general pointed out, the MDEQ's
    Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance relied on
    technical compliance instead of assuring safe drinking water.
    It is noteworthy that the lead and copper rule would have
    allowed up to 24 months to begin these treatments. It has now
    become clear that the Federal lead and copper rule is outdated
    and inadequate to protect the public from exposure to lead,
    especially in communities with aging infrastructure, such as
    Flint.
        I am confident that the many reviews of this situation,
    from the U.S. Department of Justice, to the interagency team,
    to the Michigan attorney general, will address in depth the
    policy and decisionmaking corrections needed to ensure that
    government at all levels can provide safe, clean drinking water
    to citizens.
        While we could spend the whole morning trying to assign
    blame, I'd first like to acknowledge the unwavering advocacy of
    LeeAnne Walters, EPA's Miguel Del Toral, Dr. Mark Edwards, and
    Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha in helping to bring this problem to
    light. And I would like to spend the final few minutes
    discussing the coordinated State response that has been
    undertaken to fix this problem.
        The State has been working hard to develop effective and
    responsive steps to address issues related to the drinking
    water in Flint. On October 7, Governor Rick Snyder announced a
    10-step plan to address the Flint water emergency. On January
    5th, the State Emergency Operations Center was activated. Since
    then, we have handed out approximately 100,000 water filters,
    234 cases of bottled water, 32,000 water testing sampling kits.
        I also wanted to highlight the State's five-prong sampling
    plan that addresses both the short- and long-term needs of
    Flint. This approach includes the following: access to water
    sampling for all residents. Although this is not a scientific
    sampling pool, initial results have shown lead levels in water
    with 93 percent of sampling of homes below the Federal action
    level of 15 parts per billion.
        Testing of additional schools, daycares, and nursing homes
    is underway. Assessment of food establishments through the
    Michigan Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is
    occurring. Home screening and additional followup for children
    with elevated lead levels in their blood are being coordinated
    by the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services. And
    identification of sample sites is occurring to allow for long-
    term monitoring and testing of water in conjunction with the
    EPA and the city.
        The State will assert they will achieve these deliverables
    identified in the EPA order sometime January 21st. Since the
    issuance of the order, the State and the EPA have had
    productive and constructive conversations on a unified path
    forward. While we certainly appreciate the dialogue that has
    occurred, consultation with the State before the order was
    issued would have provided clarity to the many issues that the
    State was already underway in addressing. Indeed, it is
    puzzling that the order was issued so long after the State
    response began and without mentioning the steps that were
    already underway.
        To be successful, we, the State, need to have a high-
    performing, trust-based partnership with the EPA, the city of
    Flint, and other agencies at the local and county levels. I
    appreciate the relationships that have been established between
    myself, Mayor Weaver, and interim EPA Regional Administrator
    Bob Kaplan through our weekly calls the meetings.
        In closing, we know the task ahead is important, as is the
    restoration of the public's trust. Governor Snyder is committed
    to providing the resources necessary to provide solutions. I
    look to our congressional and Federal partners to also provide
    leadership on Federal resources that can be leveraged to
    address the problems related to the Flint water crisis. We will
    not rest until this problem is solved and the people of Flint
    are assured they again have water that is safe for them and
    their families.
        I thank you again for the opportunity to come before you
    today, and I look forward to answering any questions you may
    have.
        [prepared statement of Mr. Creagh follows:]

                [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you, Mr. Creagh.
        Mr. Edwards, you're now recognized for 5 minutes.

                       STATEMENT OF MARC EDWARDS

        Mr. Edwards. Thank you.
        This is the third time, unfortunately, that I've testified
    before Congress about deficiencies in the EPA lead and copper
    rule. And I see my good friend Eleanor Holmes Norton up there,
    and I wish I didn't know you so well. Because when we met on
    this in 2004, we talked about the deficiencies at EPA, the
    loopholes in the regulation. And all of what we could have
    learned from Washington, D.C., was derailed. And, frankly, the
    only thing that we learned in Washington, D.C., was that these
    agencies, paid to protect us from lead in drinking water, can
    get away with anything.
        So I am really begging you to do what we didn't do the last
    two times I appeared before this committee, which is to fix the
    EPA lead and copper rule and to fix the U.S. EPA.
        The agencies involved in protecting children from lead in
    drinking water in this country, including U.S. Centers for
    Disease Control, the EPA, primacy agencies, and the water
    utilities, have proven themselves time and time again unworthy
    of the public trust. They cannot be trusted to fix this
    problem.
        They've repeatedly engaged in scientific misconduct. And in
    the written testimony I submitted to the committee, I outline
    over the last 10 years five examples of falsified reports from
    these agencies that have conclusions directly endangering
    children in this country, that have caused children to be lead-
    poisoned, and they refuse to correct the scientific record,
    even in the case of an EPA report that the acknowledge has no
    data--no data. After 9 years I have tried to get this report
    corrected, they refuse to retract this report.
        Mr. Edwards. So their callous disregard for the most
    vulnerable amongst us is really played out most recently in
    Flint, Michigan. And residents there have been living a surreal
    experience. It's part ``1984"; part enemy of the people. And I
    am personally shamed that the profession I belong to, the
    drinking water industry in this country, has allowed this to
    occur.
        So, in closing, I really am just begging you, please,
    please, these agencies--do what these agencies have refused to
    do. Protect kids in this country from lead in drinking water,
    and let's make them live up to their noble mission and once
    again be worthy of the public trust.
        I yield my time to LeeAnne.
        [Prepared statement of Mr. Edwards follows:]

             [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman yields back.
        Ms. Walters, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                      STATEMENT OF LEEANNE WALTERS

        Ms. Walters. My home used to be a place of comfort and
    safety for my family. It used to be what a home should be, a
    place of peace and protection from the outside world. That was
    taken from us and not just from my family, but from every home
    and every citizen in Flint.
        Now my home is known as ground zero. The people in Flint
    now stand with the people in D.C., who suffered their own lead
    crisis a decade ago, because we now know the horror of poison
    running through our taps and the negligence of the agencies
    paid to protect us.
        In 2014, in a city with no democracy, forced under an
    emergency manager hand-picked by Governor Snyder, a decision
    was made to switch the water source without the proper testing
    and enforcement of regulation.
        The MDEQ claims they misinterpreted Federal law recording
    corrosion control. They were allowed to tell EPA they were
    following the law without any verifications. The citizens in
    Flint were assured for 18 months that the water was safe. My
    home was being tested because of the discoloration of my water
    and the health issues my family was experiencing. We fought the
    city and the State saying there was something wrong, and we
    were dismissed. I decided we need to get to the science if
    anyone was ever going to believe us. I started researching and
    educating myself about water.
        I had three tests done by the city of Flint, using extra
    steps that tend to minimize lead in water. Those numbers were
    104 parts per billion, 397 parts per billion, and 707 parts per
    billion. I contacted the EPA and started working with Miguel
    Del Toral and Jennifer Crooks at the EPA. Mr. Del Toral was
    very thorough and knowledgeable in assisting me. I told Mr. Del
    Toral I did not believe there was corrosion control in the
    water, provided him documentation about this fact. And he
    verified my findings, and he was furious.
        Mr. Del Toral questioned the MDEQ and at first they lied
    and then later admitted the truth. I figured out that Ms.
    Crooks was aiding the MDEQ with their lies, and Mr. Del Toral
    was the only one willing to address the problem. I requested a
    copy of Mr. Del Toral's report and I made it public because
    people had a right to know. With the report public, Susan
    Hedman, EPA, apologized to the mayor of Flint and to the MDEQ
    because of policy. No one but Mr. Del Toral was willing to do
    their job.
        Mr. Del Toral was told by the ethics attorney to forward
    all media requests, including those during his personal time.
    He was also advised not to talk about Flint or to anybody from
    Flint.
        In a meeting I had with MDEQ, Liane Shekter Smith bragged
    to me about how Mr. Del Toral had been handled, that his report
    was flawed, and that there would be no final report. This was
    the ultimate betrayal for the citizens. Susan Hedman cared more
    about policy than the welfare of an entire community while
    punishing and silencing the one person that was willing to help
    us.
        I started doing independent testing with Virginia Tech, and
    30 tests were done, tests that were performed in accordance
    with the LCR. My average was 2,500 parts per billion. My
    highest was 13,500 parts per billion. Hazardous waste is 5,000.
    Regardless of this information and the fact that my son had
    lead poisoning, the city and the MDEQ still continued to tell
    everyone the water was safe as the EPA sat by and watched in
    silence.
        Because the State and Federal Governments failed us, with
    the help of Virginia Tech, we conducted citizen-based
    samplings. We educated and distributed 300 samples equally
    throughout the city. We collected back 277 samples. All of this
    was done in a 3-week turnaround. Here are the facts: After the
    tragedy in D.C. from 2001 to 2006, where children were poisoned
    by lead in water, the EPA should have immediately closed the
    loopholes to protect all citizens. Had the EPA closed the
    loopholes, then it could have 100 percent prevented what just
    took place in Flint.
        EPA has failed to protect people by refusing to ban partial
    lead service line replacements. The EPA's LCR National Report
    from 2006 states that the lack of system response for lead
    exceedance is especially true to inform the public. It is done
    less than one-third of the time. From my research, I have found
    that this is not a Flint problem or a rare anomaly. This is a
    national problem. Only 10 States test accurately in according
    to the LCR; 21 States do not reveal their sampling
    instructions; and 19 States have testing similar to loopholes
    to the Michigan ones. There's no justifiable reason for testing
    with loopholes, except to hide lead. These loopholes that need
    to be eliminated are pre-flush, small-mouth bottles, and cap on
    stagnation.
        I spoke against the NDWAC recommendations that are now
    currently under advisement by the EPA to change the LCR. These
    recommendations will weaken an already broken system and I'm
    outraged that the EPA continues to allow this type of
    dishonesty with testing to continue nationally.
        The citizens in Flint are relying on each of you because we
    have no choice. We trust no one but Virginia Tech. There are
    people in Flint today still not being assisted during this
    crisis: illegal immigrants, disabled and shut-ins. Broken
    policies and procedures are smothering the outcry of an entire
    community suffering financially, physically, mentally, and
    emotionally. I urge you to help restore some of the trust lost
    and protect all of the citizens in the United States by never
    allowing this happen again. We need this to happen now, not 10
    years from now. Thank you.
        [Prepared statement of Ms. Walters follows:]

              [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you. Again, thank you for the
    testimony.
        We will now recognize the gentleman from Michigan, Mr.
    Walberg, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Walberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thanks to the panel. You are a good panel to have in
    front of us to start this investigation here at this level.
        Mr. Beauvais, in his testimony, Director Creagh noted an
    email from the EPA to MDEQ in response to the release of Miguel
    Del Toral's June 24, 2015, memo stating--and this is the EPA
    email that I quote from--quote: ``I want to remind you that
    Miguel's report had DEQ cc'd, so if the legislature or whoever
    might say you are all cc'd, you can truthfully respond that it
    was EPA's request that support not be sent to the cc's.''
    Consequently, you all never received the report from Miguel.
        Mr. Beauvais, who sent that email? And why would the EPA
    tell MDEQ that they never received a request--a report which
    identified the lack of corrosive controls in place?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is that the email to which
    you are referring was from a staffer in Region 5 named Jennifer
    Crooks. I have seen the email. I do not know why that email was
    sent.
        Mr. Walberg. Has there been a check to see why the email
    was sent from anybody?
        Mr. Beauvais. We are looking into that. And the
    Administrator has asked the inspector general to undertake an
    evaluation and assessment and independent review of what
    happened here. And it's--we need to get to the bottom of that
    and all of the other facts here.
        Mr. Walberg. Was Miguel Del Toral punished for releasing
    this interim memo?
        Mr. Beauvais. I am not aware of any punishment of Mr. Del
    Toral. Mr. Del Toral is a valued member of EPA's team. He is a
    nationally recognized expert in this area.
        Mr. Walberg. Not listened to.
        Mr. Beauvais. Mr. Del Toral has spoken recently to the
    media. I believe that he has also briefed the staff of this
    committee, and I am not aware of any----
        Mr. Walberg. Mr. Edwards, do you believe that Mr. Del Toral
    was punished by the EPA?
        Mr. Edwards. Not in writing.
        Mr. Walberg. Microphone.
        Mr. Edwards. Not in writing, but the way EPA operates in
    general is that people who are causing trouble by doing their
    job are simply not allowed to do their job. They are silenced,
    as Mr. Del Toral was. He was told, as LeeAnne said, by the
    ethics officer at EPA not to speak to anyone from Flint or
    about Flint. He told me that himself before he was unable to
    talk to me anymore.
        Mr. Walberg. Mr. Edwards--or Dr. Edwards, do you believe
    EPA is aware of local municipalities that are not following the
    testing requirement under the lead and copper rule?
        Mr. Edwards. Yes, I think the EPA in general casts a blind
    eye on these municipalities who are not following----
        Mr. Walberg. Even beyond Flint.
        Mr. Edwards. Yes, absolutely.
        Mr. Walberg. A blind eye?
        Mr. Edwards. Well, for example, in Durham, North Carolina,
    in 2008, children were lead poisoned as a result of a sampling
    protocol where you remove the aerator the night before
    sampling, clean the lead out, so when you measure the lead the
    next day, the lead in water looks lower than it normally is.
    EPA wrote a memo that essentially banned that protocol. But
    they know, as we speak today, water utilities still use that
    protocol, even after it was banned and caused lead poisoning of
    children in Durham. It is extremely frustrating.
        Mr. Walberg. Their response, would you conclude, is because
    of a lack of clarity in the Federal regulations or lack of
    enforcement or both?
        Mr. Edwards. In a written letter I wrote to EPA Office of
    Water, I said point blank that the only thing I can conclude is
    that they don't care about children lead poisoned from drinking
    water.
        Mr. Walberg. Why do you think the EPA has this problem? I
    mean, that's a pretty strong statement, and I guess we will
    look for further testimony, but why does EPA have this problem?
        Mr. Edwards. You would have to ask them why they refused to
    do the job they are paid to do.
        Mr. Walberg. Do you believe they are violating the law?
        Mr. Edwards. I believe that they are not enforcing the law.
    They are not enforcing their own policies, and they have
    created this environment in which basically anything goes.
        Mr. Walberg. And this has manifested itself very clearly in
    Flint.
        Mr. Edwards. Yes, most obviously, in Flint. Due to the
    unique circumstances, the miracle of outsiders, in spite of the
    system, showing that this problem occurred--had it not been for
    people completely outside the system, those children in Flint
    would still be drinking that water to this day. That is a fact.
        Mr. Walberg. Having more questions, but seeing my time has
    expired, I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        I remind the committee that we had a hearing here in July
    about Region 5, about Susan Hedman. We had three whistleblowers
    saying that people were being retaliated against for bringing
    complaints before that region. And it's so frustrating that
    that was not dealt with when it was brought up. It should have
    never happened in the first place, and it obviously continued
    because she just retired on Monday.
        Mr. Cummings. Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Yes.
        Mr. Cummings. Very briefly, Mr. Chairman, back on that
    hearing of your regard in a bipartisan way, we made it clear
    that we would not tolerate retaliation. Nobody on these panels,
    either side, would tolerate that. And it's been our policy, and
    I think, you know, as we look at these depositions that the
    chairman is planning to do, we may want to look to make sure
    that we get to the bottom of that. I know the AG is looking at
    it. I know the FBI is looking at it, but, you know, perhaps we
    might want to consider that.
        Chairman Chaffetz. And I would concur and encourage people
    if they feel retaliated against for telling the truth and
    exposing the reality of what happened, come talk to us. Both
    sides of the aisle, there is no way we are going to stand for
    that. We are going to have your back, and we are going to make
    sure that the truth gets out there. You should not be
    retaliated. There are whistleblower protections in place for
    sharing information with Congress that's vital for us in doing
    our jobs.
        And, please, pass that--pass that word along.
        We will now recognize the gentlewoman from Michigan, Ms.
    Lawrence, for 5 minutes.
        Mrs. Lawrence. Thank you.
        Mr. Creagh, on January 29, Ranking Member Cummings and
    myself sent to Governor Snyder a detailed document request. As
    of this morning, the committee has not received any response
    from the Governor. Since this request covers your agency, can
    you tell the committee what steps have been taken to collect
    these documents, and when will we get them?
        Mr. Creagh. I'm aware of the letter. I believe there's a
    February 11 date, and I'm aware that the Governor's Office is
    reviewing that document.
        Mrs. Lawrence. I have a question about this issue of
    primacy. Can you explain in the State of Michigan, what exactly
    is the role of the Michigan Department of Environmental
    Quality? Once advised by EPA, which did happen in this
    situation, what is the responsibility based on the State of
    Michigan's law?
        Mr. Creagh. So the State of Michigan has enacted corollary
    statutes that mirror the Safe Drinking Water Act that allow us
    to enforce laws in the State of--in Michigan. We have primacy
    for enforcing the lead and copper rule and the Safe Drinking
    Water Act. And as I said in my testimony, the U.S. EPA sets the
    standards, oversees the programming, and conducts yearly
    audits.
        Mrs. Lawrence. So with the law and your responsibility, you
    are now in the position, what failed in enacting the law? And
    can you explain to me why a response to EPA on the February
    26--advising the State of Michigan that there was lead or high
    levels of corrosion in the Flint water?
        Mr. Creagh. It's the question of the day. And that's what
    many of the auditors and reviews will have is, who made what
    decisions when? And that's when I said we need to have a
    thorough investigation. As I mentioned in my testimony, the
    city runs the plant. They certify that the samples are
    consistent with the lead and copper rule. We oversee that, and
    then we work with EPA on standards and conversations.
        Mrs. Lawrence. So are you saying the city is responsible
    for not responding because if I follow the information, it came
    from EPA directly to the Michigan Department of Environmental
    Quality advising you about the Flint water?
        Mr. Creagh. If I could, I would say it differently. We all
    share responsibility in the Flint water crisis, whether it's
    the city, the State, or the Federal Government. We all let the
    citizens of Flint down, and that's what the commitment is, is
    to make sure that we solve that problem. You heard Dr. Edwards
    talk about the lead and copper rule. The citizens of Flint
    should not have to worry about the lead and copper rule. They
    should have fresh, safe drinking water.
        Mrs. Lawrence. You are new in the position, and we have
    heard clearly there are some issues with EPA. What are you
    doing in the State of Michigan to respond to this? What are the
    improvements, and what are you doing?
        Mr. Creagh. Thank you for that question. So, first and
    foremost, as you know, there is EPA's Water Task Force. I have
    weekly calls with Bob Kaplan who is the interim regional
    administrator for the U.S. EPA. Our commitment is there is no
    difference of opinion on regulation, and/or implementation. I
    meet weekly with Mayor Weaver and the water treatment facility
    operator to make sure that we are, once again, in lockstep for
    any implementation.
        We have implemented the--and have conversations, I visited
    with Miguel a couple of times already since I have been there
    talking about the EPA Water Task Force to make sure that we get
    it right. It's a very complex issue to get it right.
        Mrs. Lawrence. I want to be clear when you say it's the
    question of the day, because when--this is the response: The
    State DEQ is perplexed by Edwards' results as it seems to be by
    the city's test result. This group specializes in looking for
    high-lead problems. And we keep saying it is the question of
    the day. Has anyone been held accountable?
        Mr. Creagh. Yes, there is accountability throughout the
    system. As you know, there's been some changes at the DEQ.
    There has been suspensions at the DEQ, and everyone deserves
    due process.
        Mrs. Lawrence. So my question is, if it's the question of
    the day, you are obviously holding some people accountable. You
    should know what happened. And it should move from being a
    question to actually documenting because how can you discipline
    someone or hold them accountable if you do not have clear
    information of failure of their job?
        Mr. Creagh. I appreciate that question, and we do have
    clear standards. We have clear accountabilities. We have a
    clear path forward. We are working in conjunction with both the
    city, the State, and the Federal Government to resolve this so
    it does not happen again.
        Mrs. Lawrence. I think I'm going to hear that a couple of
    times today.
        I want to say thank you to Ms. Walters, your being here
    today, your passion going above and beyond the amazing job that
    you have as a parent, and your civic commitment. I want to
    thank you. I saw you taking some breaths during your testimony
    because this is obviously more than just a testimony. This is
    your life, and these are your children. So I just want to thank
    you for being here.
        Ms. Walters. Thank you.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentlewoman.
        We will now recognize the gentleman from Michigan, Mr.
    Amash, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Amash. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the
    panel. It's outrageous that this sort of government-made
    catastrophe would happen anywhere in the United States. And I
    agree with my Democratic colleagues that we need an
    independent, nonpartisan investigation. The State of Michigan
    needs to provide comprehensive assistance to the people of
    Flint. And the State has the resources. I can assure you of
    that as a former State legislator. The State spends $33 million
    on the Pure Michigan ad campaign yet has provided only $28
    million to make sure that the people of Flint have pure water.
    So the State has the resources. The State needs to make it
    right.
        I have never liked the emergency manager law. It takes
    power away from the people of the community. It's disappointing
    that former Emergency Manager Earley had his attorney tell us
    when he received the subpoena for his attendance here that it
    borders on nonsensical to accept that subpoena to come here.
    Now, what's nonsensical, what's disappointing is that one of
    the people who is probably most culpable for the situation
    won't take responsibility for it. And I think he needs to
    appear here, and I would like to have some more people here,
    and it's unfortunate that we, while this is an esteemed panel,
    that we only have the four of you.
        So my first question is for Mr. Creagh, and Ms. Lawrence
    touched on this. What role does the Michigan DEQ have in
    implementing and enforcing safe drinking water standards? I
    just want to get to the bottom of it. Is it the primary role?
        Mr. Creagh. Yes, we have a primary role to oversee
    compliance with the Safe Drinking Water Act, and lead and
    copper rule.
        Mr. Amash. What role does the Michigan DEQ have in the
    process of bringing a water treatment plant online? It's my
    understanding that the Flint treatment plant was offline for a
    long period of time.
        Mr. Creagh. Actually, the Flint treatment plant has a long
    history. It was a primary source, I believe, before 1967. I
    think it has been in existence since 1903. I think it has been
    a backup. I think it is tested on a quarterly basis to ensure
    it meets Safe Drinking Water standards, and so it has gone from
    a backup to a primary. Actually, State law does not require
    additional permits for that to occur in and of itself.
        Mr. Amash. So what role does the DEQ have, the Michigan
    DEQ, have in that process for bringing it back online?
        Mr. Creagh. They would apply to us to get permits for
    modifications to the plant.
        Mr. Amash. And when a city decides to change its water
    source, how involved is the Michigan DEQ?
        Mr. Creagh. I think it's been mentioned, it's highly
    unusual across this country to go from one water source to
    another. And so the rigor should have been more when the water
    source changed.
        Mr. Amash. My next question is for Professor Edwards. We
    know that not enough phosphates were added to the water to make
    it less corrosive. What's the cost of treating the water with
    the appropriate amount of phosphates?
        Mr. Edwards. When the switch was made, there was actually
    no phosphate added at all. There was no corrosion control.
    Federal law was not followed.
        Mr. Amash. No phosphates at all?
        Mr. Edwards. Nothing. Had they done the minimum allowable
    under the law, which would have been to continue the phosphate
    dosing, which would have been in Detroit water, it would have
    cost $80 to $100 a day.
        Mr. Amash. Do you know why, or why do you think no
    phosphates were added? Isn't that a normal step you take if you
    are running a facility?
        Mr. Edwards. It's the law. You have to have a corrosion
    control plan, and that's why we have the law. This disaster
    would not have occurred if the phosphate had been added. And
    that includes the, you know, the Legionella likely outbreak,
    the red water that you see, the leaks of the plumbing system.
    In general, corrosion control, for every dollar you spend on
    it, you save $10. But in Flint's situation, for every dollar
    they would have spent on it, they would have easily saved
    $1,000. So my only explanation is that it probably did start
    innocently in the chaos of the turnover, and someone simply
    forgot to follow the law.
        Mr. Amash. And not including the phosphates is a problem,
    regardless of the water source, whether it is the Flint River
    or some other water source?
        Mr. Edwards. Well, you don't have to use phosphate. There
    are alternative approaches that one can use, including pH and
    alkalinity adjustment. But the key point is, you have to have a
    plan, and you are supposed to be optimizing it to make sure
    that you are protecting your pipes; you are protecting your
    people.
        Mr. Amash. And if you started to send these phosphates or
    other chemicals through the water to fix the problem, how long
    would it take?
        Mr. Edwards. Well, it's quite likely that right now even
    after a few months of phosphate dosing that the coating has
    been largely restored and that if a federally approved lead and
    copper rule sampling was done today, there is a pretty good
    chance that Flint would pass. I can't say. But until they
    actually do that testing, we have to err on the side of caution
    and assume that the water is not safe to drink. Flint has never
    done a lead and copper rule testing according to Federal
    regulations, like many cities across the United States. And the
    reason is, they never did the first step that was required
    under the rule in 1997, which is to identify high-risk homes
    from which you have to sample. What's become clear in Flint is
    they have never followed that first step, and therefore,
    frankly, all of their prior sampling results are invalid.
        Mr. Amash. Thank you for your testimony. My time has
    expired.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        I now recognize Ms. Norton from Washington, D.C.
        Ms. Norton. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        And I thank you for promptly convening this hearing.
        Ms. Walters--seems to be only one hero in this episode, and
    it turns out to be a citizen. So on behalf of those of us on
    this panel, and I'm sure the citizens of Flint, I can only
    thank you. In our case, it was The Washington Post, and I
    should indicate what the point of my questions are.
        This really should be a problem-solving exercise. Blame is
    pretty clear. The verdict is in. The responsibility of EPA
    going back to the crisis in the Nation's Capital, and now in
    Flint, and Heaven knows, in the State, I think has had even to
    be admitted. I want to alert my colleagues of the national
    implications of this hearing because if a high profile lead
    episode in the Nation's Capital didn't alert people in 2000,
    surely, this is the time for each of us to inquire of the
    appropriate authorities if they are engaging in some of the
    tests that we had just heard described here.
        In the District, there were late-term miscarriages and
    spontaneous abortions after an unusually high rate of lead was
    found in the water between 2000 and 2003. When a corrosion
    control substance was added to the water, miscarriages and
    spontaneous abortions reverted to the normal rate.
        Ours was somewhat different. We have heard here about pre-
    flushing. Mr. Beauvais says, or at least I understand from the
    testimony, that there is a rule that says you can't pre-flush.
    But, of course, the EPA doesn't know if people are pre-flushing
    at all, and they were pre-flushing. And Flint and this is just
    to indicate what pre-flushing means, you are flushing away the
    lead. Then you test. Why? That is a deliberate, close to
    criminal act.
        Mr. Beauvais, is there monitoring of pre-flushing, just
    that one notion? I don't mean that you go into every
    jurisdiction. I mean the kind of scientific monitoring that
    lets you know whether pre-flushing is going on by the EPA?
        Mr. Beauvais. The EPA task force in Flint has provided
    clear guidance to the MDEQ.
        Ms. Norton. Do you monitor whether or not, at this moment,
    pre-flushing is going on in jurisdictions, for example, that my
    colleagues represent?
        Mr. Beauvais. Pre-stagnation flushing is a concern that Dr.
    Edwards and others have brought to our concern, and it's
    something that we are looking closely at right now and at our
    oversight activities across the country.
        Ms. Norton. So the answer is no. So watch out everybody.
    When you are told that there is no lead in your water, they
    could be pre-flushing because nobody is looking to see whether
    pre-flushing is going on.
        Mr. Creagh, you do concede fault, and you weren't there at
    the time, but then you go back to the lead and copper rule, and
    you talk about EPA and its urgency. The only official that has
    been cited here for understanding that there was a problem was
    Mr. Del Toral of the EPA. So I can understand that there's no
    consensus on the lead and copper rule. But let's look at the
    commonsense way that corrosion is controlled, I tell you, not
    only in the District of Columbia, but I'm sure all over the
    United States. You are not asserting, are you, Mr. Creagh, that
    you needed to somehow get a consensus--in your testimony, you
    used the word consensus--on the lead and copper rule before
    deciding to use corrosion control when you change sources of
    water?
        Mr. Beauvais. I am not.
        Ms. Norton. Could I ask you this? We know that this is a
    billion-dollar problem if you go to changing everybody's lead
    pipes. In the District, we had this terrible situation where
    people actually went to the trouble of changing the lead pipes
    in their own home, and it made the lead worse because unless
    the city deals with the lead pipes going from your home, then
    not only does that not cure the problem, it makes the problem
    worse. So watch out for changing the lead pipes. All over the
    United States of America, your pipes are full of lead. Neither
    the Federal Government nor your State--the Federal Government
    should have been pressing this, should have been giving money
    for this. You should have been adding money of your own to
    change pipes or to use--that is a problem in our ancient water
    system. So I want to know how to get a quick fix now. These
    people are not going to remove themselves from Flint. They
    can't sell their homes now. Nobody wants to come to Flint, an
    already troubled area.
        Let's look at, Mr. Creagh, let's look at corrosion control.
    That was the addition of a substance. That's how it's done in
    the United States. They are not yanking out every pipe. They
    are using this substance. Are you committed to using this
    substance? What is the cost of this substance, and how early
    can this chemical to control the lead to keep it from leaching
    into the water be inserted into the water supply? May I get a
    direct answer to that question?
        Mr. Creagh. Yes. That actually was--the additional
    phosphate was added on December 9, to increase the potential to
    phosphate those pipes. That's in progress and being done.
        Ms. Norton. Is the water now safe to drink?
        Mr. Creagh. We cannot guarantee at this point in time that
    the water is safe to drink, so, if you could, Mr. Chairman,
    could I----
        Chairman Chaffetz. Sure.
        Mr. Creagh.--elaborate just a little bit?
        Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman's time is expired, but
    please answer the question.
        Mr. Creagh. Yes. So we've mapped the parcels in Flint that
    we know of. There's 56,000 parcels. We put them on a GIS
    database if you will, to Dr. Edwards' point. There's
    uncertainty as to where there is lead service lines. Out of
    30,000 known, there is purported to be 5,200 of those. So what
    we are doing is we are overlaying that information and offload
    the information when I was going door to door and knocking on
    doors and talking to individuals, those that would be willing
    to be part of a sample. But then putting three-person teams in
    those homes, a plumber, someone who can actually address how do
    you take a sample so you don't pre-flush, so it's stagnant, so
    it is a wide-mouth bottle so that you pick them up on a routine
    basis and record it so that we can do that, and we are working
    with the EPA task force to see what type of time interval makes
    sense before with you can make that declarative statement.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        We now recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Mica, from
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Mica. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And it's good to follow the gentlelady from the District
    because I was here in 1995 when we took over the District, put
    in a control board. At that time, if you think Flint is bad,
    the District, they had hundreds of bodies of indigents that
    were stacked like cord they couldn't bury. The kids were
    getting from a vendor only chicken and rice that were in the
    District's care. There were 60,000 people employed by the
    District. We had a crack-smoking mayor. We had about half a
    billion dollar--running about a half a billion dollar deficit.
    You don't have the Federal Government in Flint to take that up.
    So Flint isn't being picked up.
        I remember when you had to boil the water. I remember what
    the gentlelady said: the water was not safe to drink in this
    building. They taped the water fountains up. They told people
    to boil the water. Now, in government, we have a fundamental
    responsibility, and that is, this glass of water, that's our
    responsibility to make sure that water is pure and drinkable.
    You know, just for members' information, we called the
    superintendent's office to see if this was safe. They would not
    release to me, a Member of Congress, the tests here in the
    District. And I would ask unanimous consent that the committee
    just ask the superintendent to give us the information from the
    last 15 or 20 years, because I think we have a right to know if
    it's safe here in the Nation's Capital.
        But I tell you, you are not being picked on alone. But when
    you look at this--and the District was taken over by a control
    board. There wasn't even a local though. Representative Kildee
    said there was not a local decision. Yeah, there was a 7-1
    vote, as I understand, to let this happen. There was really
    nothing wrong with that water from the Flint River, was there,
    Mr. Edwards, if it was properly treated?
        Mr. Edwards. If the minimum----
        Mr. Mica. And the water tested when it came out of the
    plant was fine. What happened was that for--the gentleman from
    Michigan said, for lack of $80 to $100 a day, that's what you
    said, which is about, let me do the math. It is about $30,000 a
    year, and it wasn't $50 million we heard cited being cut or
    something. For that much money, we poisoned the kids in Flint.
    Didn't we? That's what we did. And we have--and she was
    properly termed a citizen and a hero. She is a citizen hero.
    She stepped up, Ms. Walters, thank God that you stepped up, and
    you persisted.
        Look at the timeframe, though. They had the opportunity to
    act, to put the phosphate in to control the degradation of the
    pipes. That wasn't done. She alerted them, and that was back
    in--when did you do that in? What month?
        Ms. Walters. That was in March of 2015.
        Mr. Mica. In 2015, and it went on and on. And----
        Ms. Walters. Do you know why the phosphates were not added?
        Mr. Mica. Why?
        Ms. Walters. Because they did not have the equipment at the
    treatment plant to add the phosphates.
        Mr. Mica. Again, it's a simple solution that should have
    been placed--in place, and the State or the Federal Government,
    and you got blown off by the locals, right?
        Ms. Walters. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Mica. You got blown off by the State, right?
        Ms. Walters. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Mica. So you went to the Federal Government, and they
    failed you, right?
        Ms. Walters. Everybody but Mr. Del Toral, sir.
        Mr. Mica. Yes, exactly. And this is just unacceptable. We
    have a responsibility to these kids. Now, everybody has talked
    about blaming and accountability, and we should hold these
    people accountable. Now we have got the kids who have drunk
    this water and are bathed in this water. Every kid in that
    community should be tested. And then if there is residual
    results, don't you think that someone should be responsible? It
    should be the State government, the Federal Government, and the
    local government should be responsible to make certain those
    kids now and in the future are--well, first, we need to test
    them. Is that underway, Mr. Creagh?
        Mr. Creagh. Yes, sir, there's testing available.
        Mr. Mica. Okay. And then we should set aside a fund, or
    whatever, because we should make certain that these kids are
    taken care of. And then Mr. Edwards said this is going on not
    just in Flint. It's going on in D.C. It's going on in Durham we
    heard testimony today. And it needs to stop. And we need to
    make certain the system works. Right, Mr. Edwards?
        Mr. Edwards. That's correct.
        Mr. Mica. Right, Mr. Creagh?
        Mr. Creagh. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Mica. And you are new on the block.
        Mr. Beauvais. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Mica. Thank you, Citizen Hero, we appreciate what you
    did. Thank you.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you.
        The audience is reminded to hold their applause, please.
        We will now recognize the gentleman from Virginia, Mr.
    Connolly, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        We ought to be clear about Flint, arguably, one of the
    worst municipal environmental tragedies in the modern era in
    the United States, and it was manmade. And it is the
    consequence, actually, of implementing a political philosophy
    of Social Darwinism, of smaller government, of rabid anti-
    regulation, of attack, after attack, after attack on the EPA
    because our financiers don't like it.
        Let's be very clear how Flint happened. It did not happen
    by accident. And it wasn't a 7-to-1 vote to switch the source
    of water. That was a vote to switch water authorities. They
    didn't vote on going to the river. And those who want to argue
    with ``there is nothing wrong with the water, just add some
    phosphate to it,'' well, please, send a liter of that water to
    every one of my colleagues who want to take that position and
    watch them drink it.
        This is the consequence of putting ideology ahead of human
    beings and their needs and their welfare. The difference in
    political philosophy matters. Political choices have
    consequences, and Flint is the most dramatic in our generation.
    I do J'accuse. I do lay this at the doorstep of those who share
    that philosophy, and I want to see the Governor at this table.
    If you're so passionate and sanctimonious about holding people
    accountable--and God knows we have done that in the 7 years I
    have been on this committee--then let's have Governor Snyder at
    this table explaining himself.
        Mr. Creagh, in October of last year, the Governor appointed
    a task force, the Flint Water Advisory Task Force. And this is
    their report to the Governor. Is that correct?
        Mr. Creagh. They have issued some interim letters to the
    Governor.
        Mr. Connolly. But it's the Governor's appointed task force.
    Is that correct or not?
        Mr. Creagh. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Connolly. And let me see, on December 29, that interim
    letter you refer says, and I quote:We believe primary
    responsibility for what happened in Flint rests with your
    department, the DEQ. Although many individuals and entities at
    State and local levels contributed to creating and prolonging
    the problem, the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality
    is the government agency that has responsibility to assure safe
    drinking water in Michigan. It failed in that responsibility
    and must be held accountable for that failure.
        Are you aware of that finding, that interim finding?
        Mr. Creagh. I read the letter, met with the committee a
    couple of times.
        Mr. Connolly. Do you take issue with it?
        Mr. Creagh. I do not.
        Mr. Connolly. So you agree?
        Mr. Creagh. In retrospect, I agree.
        Mr. Connolly. Okay. They then said, they actually
    characterized your agency's response, quote, ``an abysmal
    public response to the crisis,'' unquote. Do you agree with
    that characterization?
        Mr. Creagh. In retrospect, I think that the auditor general
    agrees with that also, that we were minimalistic and legalistic
    in our behavior.
        Mr. Connolly. Mr. Edwards, is the primary responsibility
    here EPA's or DEQ's? How does it work?
        Mr. Edwards. Without question, the primary responsibility
    is those paid to protect Michigan citizens from lead in water.
    That's their job, and that lies exclusively with the MDEQ.
        Mr. Connolly. And Professor Edwards, just so for the
    record, because we are seeing--we are hearing a little
    mushiness about that, let's blame the EPA. And EPA has some
    culpability here, no question. But in terms of water quality,
    isn't that how it works? The EPA relies on State DEQs,
    certainly in our State, Virginia, to carry out the
    responsibility of oversight of water quality primarily. Is that
    not the case?
        Mr. Carter. That's correct.
        Mr. Connolly. And in this case, were there warning flags at
    all for Michigan DEQ about switching the source of water in--
    before they did it?
        Mr. Edwards. Well, if they weren't before they did it, as
    soon as they made the switch, there was warning sign, after
    warning sign.
        Mr. Connolly. And what did they do with those warning
    signs?
        Mr. Edwards. They denied, denied, and denied that there was
    a problem.
        Mr. Connolly. And that put, Ms. Walters, people at risk. Is
    that not true? I give you the last word on how this happened.
        Ms. Walters. Yes, it did put us at risk. It wasn't my job
    to figure out that there was no corrosion control in the water.
    They should have known that from the start.
        Mr. Connolly. You had a reasonable expectation, did you
    not, that you could rely on the government to protect you and
    your family?
        Ms. Walters. Yes, I did.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you very much.
        I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I now recognize the gentleman from
    Arizona, Mr. Gosar, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Administrator Beauvais, thank you for appearing today. When
    did the EPA first learn of the high lead levels in Flint's
    water?
        Mr. Beauvais. I think there were indications in the spring
    of 2015 with the testing of Ms. Walters' house and some
    neighboring houses that very high lead levels were being found
    there.
        Mr. Gosar. Now, I understand the concept, you know--I deal
    a lot with water--that EPA, the environmental quality, but it's
    set up as a checks and balances. Wouldn't you agree, Mr.
    Beauvais?
        Mr. Beauvais. EPA has an oversight responsibility.
        Mr. Gosar. You do.
        Would you agree, Mr. Edwards?
        Mr. Edwards. Yes, I do.
        Mr. Gosar. So if something fails, there is another line
    that should come about. So I'm going to go along this line of
    EPA. When did EPA Administrator McCarthy first visit Flint
    about this crisis?
        Mr. Beauvais. I believe that yesterday was Administrator
    McCarthy's first visit to Flint.
        Mr. Gosar. Wasn't until yesterday that she visited for the
    first time. So the day before this hearing. So Administrator
    McCarthy knew about this crisis for 8 months but didn't visit
    Flint until the day before a congressional hearing?
        Mr. Beauvais. I don't believe that Administrator McCarthy
    knew about the crisis for 8 months.
        Mr. Gosar. Really, something dynamic as this, and you
    didn't relay that up the chain?
        Mr. Beauvais. Well, I came into this job in November of
    2015, so I don't have personal knowledge of all of the
    communications that were done.
        Mr. Gosar. What's today?
        Mr. Beauvais. Today is February the 3rd.
        Mr. Gosar. It's February 2016. Right? To me, when you
    prioritize--and by the way, I'm a healthcare provider; I'm a
    dentist--you triage things like this. This is something that is
    a dynamic tragedy. It is an ongoing problem. Wouldn't you
    agree?
        Mr. Beauvais. I agree.
        Mr. Gosar. So wouldn't you put the highest priority on that
    application to figure out how--what went wrong and accept some
    of the blame and try to go forward? Would you not?
        Mr. Beauvais. This absolutely is our highest priority.
        Mr. Gosar. Well, it sure doesn't show it to me. Because if
    she knew in November, it's February before she shows up at
    Flint?
        Mr. Beauvais. The EPA has been intensively engaged in this
    situation since well before November.
        Mr. Gosar. Yeah, no, it's the same old thing. You have got
    to remember that this is the same EPA that knew about what was
    going to happen in a mine blowout in Colorado and now has a lot
    of people all the way down from Colorado, Utah, California, and
    Arizona all at risk because of some of their actions.
        So, yes, everybody desires or should take some of the
    blame. But some of that blame goes to EPA, and it goes to the
    head honcho. Just like, for example, for me in my office,
    somebody comes into my office and something goes wrong. I'm
    accountable for that. I find it despicable that the Gina
    McCarthy, Administrator, shows up in Flint yesterday instead of
    going there immediately, particularly when we see the outrage
    from the other side and from the people in this audience in
    regards to children and the lead poisoning that occurs. That's
    just despicable.
        Administrator Beauvais, an EPA employee, Susan Hedman,
    tried to discuss the seriousness of this memo in emails in July
    2015 by saying it was a draft, stating the memo should have
    never been released and stating that the memo never had final
    approval from the EPA hierarchy, having since resigned.
    Correct?
        Mr. Beauvais. Yes, Dr. Hedman has resigned.
        Mr. Gosar. Why did she resign?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is that she resigned in
    order to make sure that the region and EPA could be fully
    focused on our response in Flint.
        Mr. Gosar. Why wasn't she fired?
        Mr. Beauvais. I can't answer that question. She stepped
    aside in order to make sure that we could focus all of our
    attention on----
        Mr. Gosar. Make sure that the Administrator has that
    question because we are going to ask that when the
    Administrator is here. Why wasn't she fired?
        The initial memo was sent on June 24th. Ms. Hedman promised
    a final memo. Was the final memo ever released?
        Mr. Beauvais. I believe that the final memo was released in
    October.
        Mr. Gosar. It's November.
        Mr. Beauvais. November.
        Mr. Gosar. November. Was it a comprehensive memo that
    details the chronic-ness and dynamic aspect of this tragedy?
        Mr. Beauvais. This particular memo that Mr. Del Toral did
    was focused on the testing of lead at Mrs. Walters' house and
    the neighboring homes.
        Mr. Gosar. But this memo, I understand, is not even nearly
    the comprehensive aspect that--would you consider it a shell of
    a release?
        Mr. Beauvais. The memo was focused on the specific testing
    that was done at Mrs. Walters' house and the neighboring homes
    and was a comprehensive look at that situation. It is not the
    entirety of EPA's review of the situation.
        Mr. Gosar. Dr. Creagh, I appreciate your testimony today,
    and you are one person today that has accepted some
    responsibility. And your Governor freely did the same through
    this crisis even though there is fault all the way across. That
    is commendable. Do you believe this incident would have
    occurred had the Flint City Council not voted to change its
    water source?
        Mr. Creagh. I think this incident occurred because of the
    lack of orthophosphate being added.
        Mr. Gosar. No, but if you never made the change, you would
    have never had this catastrophic event, right?
        Mr. Creagh. That's a true statement.
        Mr. Gosar. What would have happened if the city would have
    followed the directions of its water utility consultant?
        Mr. Creagh. There were a couple of different consultants,
    and it would have minimized the problem.
        Mr. Gosar. And what would have happened if the city would
    have followed the corrosive, the proper corrosive treatment?
        Mr. Creagh. As Dr. Edwards stated, we would not have had
    this problem.
        Mr. Gosar. So a series of checks and balances, everybody
    pointing the finger, and nobody wanting to take the blame
    except yourself and the Governor. I find that very humblingly
    bad that the government is not being part of the solution here.
        So, with that, I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        I now recognize----
        Mr. Cummings. Me.
        Chairman Chaffetz. --the ranking member, Mr. Cummings.
        Mr. Cummings. Mr. Chairman, I was going to let Mr.
    Cartwright go, but, Mr. Creagh, I'm getting very concerned
    about your testimony because I want to remind you that you are
    sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
    truth. So let's go over what you've just said.
        And I have got to get it right in here, because I'm kind of
    concerned because I don't want the public to not see this for
    the accurate truth.
        Mr. Creagh, Governor Snyder recently named you as the new
    head of the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality. Last
    month, your boss, Governor Snyder--and I'm hoping he's
    watching, by the way--gave his 2016 State of the State address.
    In his speech, Governor Snyder seemed to take responsibility
    for the Flint crisis stating that and I quote, ``The buck stops
    here with me,'' and that quote, ``I take full responsibility to
    fix the problem so that it will never happen again.''
        However, in the same breath, Governor Snyder also tried to
    blame the city of Flint. It sounds like you are doing right
    now, and he said this, and I quote, ``This crisis began in the
    spring of 2013 when the Flint City Council voted 7 to 1 to buy
    water from the Karegnondi Water Authority.''
        Mr. Creagh, do you agree with Governor Snyder's statement?
        Mr. Creagh. The question that I responded to, sir, was if
    they would never have changed their water source, would this
    issue have happened? And I believe that's a true statement
    because they were on Detroit water and sewer department water,
    which was phosphated, and they had a 30-year history. So I
    apologize if I misrepresented.
        Mr. Cummings. I'm not finished. Just hold on. I'm not
    finished. We reviewed the resolution passed by the city council
    and the minutes from the meeting. At no point during the
    meeting did the city council vote to allow the Flint River to
    be used for drinking water. Isn't that correct, Mr. Creagh?
        Mr. Creagh. I haven't reviewed those personally, but that's
    my understanding.
        Mr. Cummings. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce into
    the record, a letter we just received yesterday from Sheldon A.
    Neeley, who served on the city council from 2005 to 2014. He
    was actually there. He was there, Mr. Creagh. All right? In his
    letter, Mr. Neeley explains that the city council did not--do
    we have the letter? Where is the letter? Have you got it?
    Where's the letter? Oh, they have it. In his letter, Mr. Neeley
    explains that the city council did not make the decision to use
    the Flint River because quote: ``The Flint City Council had no
    power to actually enact any laws for the community. Everything
    went through the emergency manager,'' end of quote, who was
    appointed by the Governor. He also says this, and I quote--did
    you need something, Mr. Chairman?
        Chairman Chaffetz. No, I wanted to enter that letter.
        Mr. Cummings. Okay. Oh, yeah, would you please?
        Chairman Chaffetz. We will enter it into the record.
        Without objection, so ordered.
        Mr. Cummings. You're making me nervous. This is what he
    said: It was the emergency manager, Ed Kurtz, who made the
    decision to use the Flint River as a primary source of drinking
    water for the City of Flint.
        Mr. Creagh, are you aware of Mr. Kurtz' actions?
        Mr. Creagh. No, sir, I was not in this seat at the time.
        Mr. Cummings. And Mr. Creagh, so Mr. Neeley also wrote that
    quote: ``Governor Snyder's account of events leading to this
    water crisis are completely wrong,'' end of quote.
        Why would Governor Snyder try to blame the city council for
    this decision when it was his own appointee who made it and you
    have a city council that has no authority? There's something
    wrong with that. That's why I interjected here, because I want
    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
        Now, let me ask you. I'm not finished. Do you have any
    reason to believe that Mr. Neeley is not telling the truth?
        Mr. Creagh. I have no reason to believe.
        Mr. Cummings. Now Mr. Neeley's letter is supported by
    statements from Flint's former mayor, Dayne Walling. On January
    22, 2016, he stated and I quote: ``After city council and I
    expressed support for a new water supply from Lake Huron, the
    emergency manager, Edward Kurtz, went behind closed doors with
    the Department of Environmental Quality and decided to use the
    Flint River as an interim source, made the budget changes, and
    put that in place,'' end of quote.
        Were you aware Mayor Walling's statement?
        Mr. Creagh. I am not.
        Mr. Cummings. All right. Based on the evidence, it seems
    that Governor Snyder was trying to blame the city of Flint for
    actions of his own appointee, and he did this in his State of
    the State address to the entire population of Flint.
        Now, let me ask you something else. Are the people paying
    right now in Flint for water they cannot wash in and cannot use
    and cannot drink? Are they paying water bills? And is it a part
    of the recovery? You said you want to make them whole. Is that
    part of it? Why are they--why would they be paying for water
    that they cannot even use, that is poisoning them? That's not
    American. As Mr. Chairman said, this is not a Third World
    country. Are they paying those bills? Are you going to relieve
    them of that?
        Mr. Creagh. Everyone deserves safe drinking water, and
    that's the expectation. And, yesterday, the Governor introduced
    a supplemental for $30 million to help with that issue. The
    number one issue, as we have spoken with the mayor, is to make
    sure the utility remains solvent. And the billing is actually
    more of a city issue, but we understand and respect that, and
    everyone deserves water that is safe.
        Mr. Cummings. Mr. Chairman, as I close, these are people
    who are struggling. They are struggling. They have come over
    here all the way here from Flint, and I don't know how they got
    here. I guess on a bus. But the fact that they are here. But,
    you know what, Mr. Creagh and Mr. Chairman, they are also
    Americans. They are also Americans, just like you and just like
    your children. And I don't--and I want to be real, real, real
    clear. And the chairman will bear me out on this. I have said I
    don't care whether it's EPA, whether it's local, whether it's
    State. I want everybody who is responsible for this fiasco to
    be held accountable. I'm not protecting anybody because that's
    not our job. We are the last line of defense, and if we don't
    do it, nobody is going to do it.
        I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        I now recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr.
    Meadows, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Meadows. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you, Ms. Walters, for your testimony. Truly, it has
    made a profound difference in such a way--I'm from North
    Carolina, a long way away from Flint, Michigan. But in a way,
    we are connected. I got texts this morning from people who have
    been affected by Region 4, not Region 5, but with water quality
    issues for years and the EPA's failure to address them.
        Now, the troubling thing for me is that what I hear from
    our water quality EPA official is that they are going to just
    let the Office of Inspector General do their work. Now, the
    problem with that is--and I have high regard for that
    particular inspector general. In fact, I can tell you, Ms.
    Walters, that they will continue to look at it in a very
    detailed way. But it will not be enough. There is more than
    enough blame to go around. The problem is there is not enough
    answers to be shared. And so I'm going to come to the EPA and
    ask you, since FOIA is under my subcommittee--and the FOIA
    request allows the public to look at documents often used in a
    regular basis by reporters. And I'm troubled to hear that the
    FOIA request that Dr. Edwards has made has actually--you
    haven't complied with the law. What do you say to that?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is that we are actively
    working to respond.
        Mr. Meadows. Active is not enough. Let me just tell you, we
    have got families that are suffering, and there's a law that
    says that you have to respond within 21 days. So what do you
    say to Dr. Edwards, who has been requesting information,
    because as I understand, Dr. Edwards, and if you will help me
    with this, that you have made requests both of the State and of
    the Feds. Who has been more responsive to you, Dr. Edwards?
        Mr. Edwards. The State of Michigan has been very
    responsive.
        Mr. Meadows. And so how many documents of what you've
    requested from the EPA have you received to date?
        Mr. Edwards. I'd have to check, but I still have FOIAs
    outstanding from 9 years ago in Washington, D.C., that I
    appealed in 2005 and that an attorney from EPA just contacted
    me 1 month ago about. So there----
        Mr. Meadows. Nine years.
        Mr. Edwards. Nine years.
        Mr. Meadows. Let me tell you the trouble that I have with
    this. We have a site in western North Carolina called CTS.
    You're familiar with that, I'm sure, aren't you?
        Mr. Beauvais. I have heard about the site. I do not have
    direct personal knowledge about it.
        Mr. Meadows. Okay. I would ask, since you're new to the
    job, that you get some personal knowledge.
        Mr. Beauvais. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Meadows. Because we have a recurring theme here. We
    have unbelievable regulations that come down, and then the EPA
    does not enforce their own regulations. There's a problem with
    that, don't you think?
        Mr. Beauvais. It's important for EPA to enforce its
    regulations.
        Mr. Meadows. Can you share with me your rationale, why it
    would take 9 years to answer a FOIA request for Dr. Edwards?
        Mr. Beauvais. I have no idea. I'm not familiar with the
    specific request at issue.
        Mr. Meadows. Okay. What commitment do we have from you
    today to get those FOIA responses answered as it relates to the
    Flint, Michigan, issue?
        Mr. Beauvais. I will take that back and ensure that it
    gets----
        Mr. Meadows. Okay, you're going to take it back. When can
    this committee and when can Dr. Edwards expect a response? Is
    the law clear?
        Mr. Beauvais. I believe that the law is clear on the
    timeframes for response. I will take that back and ensure that
    it's a high priority.
        Mr. Meadows. All right. So, obviously, you prepared for
    this hearing this morning. When you were talking about the
    information that needed to be shared with the people of Flint,
    what was your own internal guidance among your attorneys? A
    couple, I guess, are sitting behind you. What did you recommend
    that you share?
        Because what happens is everybody gets lawyered up and then
    they do nothing. And I can tell you, from a bipartisan
    standpoint, this Republican from western North Carolina is
    going to work with Democrats from Michigan to make sure that
    not only you are held accountable but the State is held
    accountable and all those who have been involved in this are
    held accountable, because we've got children--it could have
    been my children in Flint, Michigan, and I'm not going to
    forget that. It could have been your children.
        So what kind of commitment do we have from you to get the
    documents to this committee so that we can figure out who's to
    blame?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is that there have been
    discussions between committee staff and the agency and that a
    commitment has been made to work expeditiously to get
    unredacted copies of certain FOIA documents that were released
    as well as documents related to the committee's request.
        Mr. Meadows. So do you think the 60 days is enough time?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is that actually the agency
    has agreed to provide some documents that we can provide by the
    end of this week.
        Mr. Meadows. Very good.
        I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you to the gentleman.
        We will now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr.
    Cartwright, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Cartwright. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I'd like to associate myself with the remarks of the
    ranking member, Mr. Cummings. And not to put too fine a point
    on it, what we see here is the responsible, the culpable party
    being caught red-handed, so red-handed that he had to admit his
    blame and apologize to the Nation and to Flint, this Governor
    of Michigan and his emergency manager, hand-picked, to save
    money--in keeping with his philosophy of government, to save
    money on infrastructure at the expense of public safety. He got
    caught red-handed poisoning children in Flint and the residents
    of Flint. There's no two ways about it. That's the headline
    here.
        But, you know, criminals, when they get caught red-handed,
    you know what they start to do right away? They start to try to
    spread the blame. Oh, there's plenty of blame to go around, I
    heard. There's plenty of blame to go around. So let's just put
    aside the fact that the Governor of Michigan got caught red-
    handed poisoning his citizens. Let's forget about that. Let's
    also try to blame the Flint local officials.
        You know, Representative Kildee from Flint got up here, and
    he testified, and he made a very prescient point that it's an
    attempt to create an equivalency of blame. That's what I say;
    they're spreading the blame out. And anytime somebody says
    something about a seven-to-one vote in Flint, that is exactly
    what Dan Kildee's talking about, is people trying to put the
    blame on the local officials in Flint, blame that has no place
    in the local officials in Flint. This is the Governor of
    Michigan at fault, his emergency managers.
        And I was saddened to hear my colleague from Florida say
    out loud, talk about the seven-to-one vote. They voted seven to
    one not to switch the Flint River water; they voted seven to
    one on something completely different. So that's ridiculous.
    And it is a reprehensible attempt to achieve what Dan Kildee
    calls the equivalency of blame and something that criminal
    defendants always do when they get caught red-handed.
        Now, Mr. Creagh, I want to talk about what the State did.
    It made a decision not to use the Flint River, and then it
    reversed that decision. Am I correct on that?
        Mr. Creagh. I wasn't party to a decision----
        Mr. Cartwright. You weren't there. Okay.
        According to press reports, one of Governor Snyder's
    emergency managers for Flint, a Mr. Jerry Ambrose--is he here
    today? Can anybody tell me why Jerry Ambrose is not here today?
    Can anybody tell me why the Governor of Michigan is not here
    today? Because he's hiding. That's what's happening.
        Ambrose testified in a sworn deposition that in 2012 the
    Governor's previous emergency manager in Flint, Ed Kurtz, had
    rejected a previous proposal to use Flint River water as a
    primary source of drinking water.
        Are you aware of that decision, Mr. Creagh?
        Mr. Creagh. I am not.
        Mr. Cartwright. Well, let me read it to you. It said this,
    and I quote: ``It was a collective decision of the emergency
    management team based on conversations with the DEQ that
    indicated they would not be supportive of the use of Flint
    River on a long-term basis as a primary source of water.''
        Mr. Creagh, when Mr. Ambrose was asked why your department
    made that recommendation, he replied, and I quote, ``You'll
    have to ask them.''
        So I'm asking you, as the head of MDEQ, why did your
    department previously oppose the use of Flint River water as a
    primary source back in 2012?
        Mr. Creagh. I don't have knowledge as to that conversation
    or decision.
        Mr. Cartwright. You don't know. Your predecessor was Dan
    Wyant, and that's why we've called for his deposition, Mr.
    Chairman, and I press that request.
        I'm trying to figure out what happened between 2012 when
    your department, Mr. Creagh, opposed using the Flint River and
    2014 when you reversed course and signed off on permits to
    allow it. And you can't explain that to us because you weren't
    there at the time, right?
        Mr. Creagh. That's correct.
        Mr. Cartwright. Okay.
        We're having a hearing here in Washington, D.C., with
    witnesses who do not have personal knowledge of the subject.
    How crazy is that? How interested are we, really, in getting at
    the facts when they bring here witnesses who don't know what
    went on?
        Mr. Creagh, in a press release dated April 25, 2014,
    Michael Prysby of your department stated, ``The quality of the
    water being put out meets all of our drinking water standards
    and Flint water is safe to drink.'' He said that. You know
    that, right?
        Mr. Creagh. Correct.
        Mr. Cartwright. It was a lie, wasn't it?
        Mr. Creagh. Mr. Prysby was--his comment was in relationship
    to the water leaving the plant, making sure it met safe
    drinking water standards. And that's what he based that comment
    on.
        Mr. Cartwright. Mr. Chairman, I'm out of time. I hope
    you'll designate a minority day of hearings as soon as possible
    so that we could have witnesses who actually know what the
    facts were at the time.
        And I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Hice, is
    now recognized for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Hice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Beauvais, I want to begin with you. The lead and copper
    rule may not nearly be as protected as previously considered.
    The Safe Drinking Water Act requires that the lead and copper
    rule be updated every 6 years. Are you aware of that?
        Mr. Beauvais. There is a provision in the Safe Drinking
    Water Act requiring a review of the regulations.
        Mr. Hice. When was the last time that it was updated?
        Mr. Beauvais. 2007 is the last time that the rule was
    updated.
        Mr. Hice. Why is the EPA so far behind?
        Mr. Beauvais. We've been working actively. We wanted to get
    advice from our National Drinking Water Advisory Council with
    regard to the revisions that will be proposed, and we also
    received advice from a number of other stakeholders----
        Mr. Hice. How many years does it take to get the
    information in order to abide by what you are required to do?
        Mr. Beauvais. This is a high priority for us, and it's
    essential that we move forward with revisions to the rule.
        Mr. Hice. This is a high priority for all of us.
        I don't know, Mr. Chairman, that there's been more of a
    catastrophe in government handling of an issue since Hurricane
    Katrina. This is absolutely a trainwreck in every way. And the
    EPA is so far behind, not doing the job.
        When will the updated version be ready?
        Mr. Beauvais. The current schedule for proposing revisions
    to the rule had a proposal coming in 2017. It's important that
    we take actions even in advance of completing any revisions to
    the rule to review how the current rule is being implemented.
    Dr. Edwards and others have raised a number of important issues
    with regard to the implementation of the current rule, and so
    we're actively going to be working----
        Mr. Hice. My question is, when will it be ready?
        Mr. Beauvais. My expectation at this point in time is that
    it would be proposed in 2017.
        Mr. Hice. Do we have your commit that it will be early
    2017?
        Mr. Beauvais. I certainly would hope that the agency----
        Mr. Hice. You realize that's yet another year----
        Mr. Beauvais. I do.
        Mr. Hice. --to get done something that should have been
    done, what, 4 years ago now?
        Do we have your commitment that it will be done in early
    2017?
        Mr. Beauvais. I can commitment that our work on the lead
    and copper rule revisions will be one of the highest priorities
    in my office, as well as work to address implementation of the
    current rule.
        Mr. Hice. When Mr. Del Toral produced his memo finding the
    high levels of lead in the drinking water in June, where did
    that memo go?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is that Mr. Del Toral gave
    the memo directly to Ms. Walters, whose home was the subject of
    the testing. My understanding is that that was then provided to
    a reporter and that it went out into the public.
        Mr. Hice. Well, at some point, Mr. Del Toral was on a leave
    of absence. Who worked on this issue in his absence?
        Mr. Beauvais. I'm not aware that he was placed on leave of
    absence.
        Mr. Hice. Okay.
        Mr. Edwards, let me go to you. Do you believe in any way
    that the EPA's management of this whole thing hindered its
    employees from having the ability to do their job in Flint?
        Mr. Edwards. Absolutely.
        Mr. Hice. Absolutely. Okay. Do you believe that the EPA's
    management made the lead crisis in Flint worse?
        Mr. Edwards. Absolutely.
        Mr. Hice. Absolutely. Who at the EPA do you find fault?
        Mr. Edwards. Susan Hedman.
        Mr. Hice. Pardon me?
        Mr. Edwards. Ms. Susan Hedman, who had the memo buried,
    covered up, and stood silent as Mr. Del Toral was publicly
    discredited for his work. When she was questioned by
    politicians from all parties 3 years later, September of this
    year, she discounted that there was anything of concern in
    Flint occurring at all. And that includes Mayor Walling, people
    from the State government, as well as Democratic congressional
    staff.
        Mr. Hice. Okay.
        Mr. Chairman, has the letter from John O'Grady, the EPA
    union representative, yet been entered into the record?
        Chairman Chaffetz. Sorry, which letter?
        Mr. Hice. From John O'Grady.
        Chairman Chaffetz. If it hasn't, we will enter it. Without
    objection, so ordered.
        Mr. Hice. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Let me go back, if I can, Mr. Beauvais, to you. Are you
    aware of any other situations in Region 5 where there may be
    the potential of contaminated water?
        Mr. Beauvais. I am aware of a recent situation with regard
    to Sebring, Ohio, where there has been a concern with high lead
    levels in the drinking water system, of which EPA was made
    aware just within the last week. And my understanding is that
    action is being taken with regard to that situation. I believe
    that EPA staff have been on the ground actually as of yesterday
    in Sebring looking at that situation.
        Mr. Hice. What about other regions throughout the country?
        Mr. Beauvais. There are drinking water issues across the
    country that we are monitoring actively and working with our
    State partners to address.
        Mr. Hice. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired. I thank you. I
    yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        I now recognize the gentlewoman from Illinois, Ms. Kelly,
    for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I want to thank you
    and Ranking Member Cummings for having this hearing.
        I also want to thank Rep. Kildee and Rep. Lawrence for
    their leadership on this issue.
        I also associate myself with the remarks from Rep. Lawrence
    and Ranking Member Cummings. We need to get the folks here who
    can answer the question of why this happened. And I hope when
    we have another hearing that Mr. Del Toral will be here, as
    well as the Governor and other people we deem necessary.
        I want to thank the residents of Flint for being here.
        And, Ms. Walters, thank you so much for all of your efforts
    and for your testimony.
        On November 20, 2015, the EPA's Flint Drinking Water Task
    Force commented on Flint's residential drinking water lead and
    copper sampling instructions. The task force made several
    recommendations, including removing preflushing from the sample
    collection process. The task force concluded, and I quote,
    ``These changes should be made to all of the sampling
    recommendations or instructions from MDEQ to all systems, not
    just Flint.''
        Mr. Creagh, do you agree that these changes should be made
    statewide?
        Mr. Creagh. I agree, and those changes have been made.
        Ms. Kelly. They have been made?
        Mr. Creagh. Yes.
        Ms. Kelly. So, okay, they're across Michigan.
        Dr. Edwards, do you feel that these recommendations by the
    EPA task force should apply across the Nation?
        Mr. Edwards. Yes, absolutely.
        Ms. Kelly. And would you include anything else in the
    recommendation?
        Mr. Edwards. No, that--well, obviously, that the utilities
    should be following the protocol for identifying the high-risk
    sampling pool. All across the United States, they're supposed
    to be sampling from the homes that are highest risk for lead in
    water, and there's very real reason to believe that's not
    occurring. And the whole effectiveness of the rule is based on
    that first step as well.
        Ms. Kelly. Okay.
        Mr. Beauvais, what are the barriers to EPA applying these
    recommendations across the country?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is that we can follow it
    with making these recommendations across the country, and we're
    actively working on that. In terms of regulatory requirements,
    those issues will have to be taken up in the revisions to the
    rule.
        Ms. Kelly. Okay. I think that this change should be pursued
    if it means that we will get a more accurate picture of lead
    contamination in our drinking water across the Nation and stop
    future lead water crises from happening. We must stop these
    problems at the most basic level of detection and ensure that
    we are getting accurate information.
        We also must stop playing with people's lives when
    practicing government on the cheap as well as systemic
    environmental discrimination.
        I yield the rest of my time to Representative Lawrence.
        Mrs. Lawrence. Thank you.
        I want to just emphasize something, and we can't say this
    enough. When we say we're pointing fingers, there is the
    Federal Government, EPA, and there's the State government.
    Because under the emergency manager act in Michigan, the local
    government, the city of Flint, has no government authority.
        So the decisions that were made and the actions that were
    taken, we can look at the State level and we can look at the
    Federal level. I want to be clear about that. All of us who
    live in Michigan clearly understand the emergency manager act.
    It comes in and it dissolves home rule. And the emergency
    manager reports only--only--to the State government, and that's
    our Governor.
        I also want to say, when we were saying that the EPA had
    not showed up until this last week when the new Secretary
    showed up--I want to enter this into the record. January the
    21st, there was a United States EPA Office of Enforcement and
    Compliance Assurance letter submitted to the city saying that,
    as a result, the EPA is issuing an SDWA emergency order to make
    sure that the necessary actions to protect public health happen
    immediately.
        In addition to that, because of a failure of the State, the
    State no longer has the responsibility of testing the water in
    Flint. Just this last week, it was taken over--or this week--it
    was taken over by EPA because of the failure of the State to
    comply with this order.
        And so it may have come late, but to say nothing had
    happened from EPA to that point--and, again, there was
    documented a failure on the State's part to actually collect
    and test the water.
        So we have, again, the State and the Federal Government. If
    we're talking about pointing fingers--and that's not why I'm
    here. I'm not pointing fingers. I want the truth, and I want
    this corrected.
        Thank you. I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. As to the document, we'll enter that
    into the record unless there's an objection. But, without
    objection, so ordered.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I now recognize the gentleman from
    Oklahoma, Mr. Russell, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Russell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Dr. Edwards, Ms. Walters, thank you for your courage in
    this issue and for exposing for the Nation when things fail.
        Mr. Beauvais, what is the fundamental core mission of the
    EPA?
        Mr. Beauvais. Protection of public health and the
    environment.
        Mr. Russell. I see. You stated that the lead and copper
    rule was updated in 2007; yet, from our facts, we see that the
    lead and copper rule has not been finalized in any long-term
    update in 25 years. Why is that?
        Mr. Beauvais. There have been efforts to update the rule
    periodically over time. It was updated most recently in 2007.
    The long-term revisions to the rule are what we're working on
    right now.
        Mr. Russell. ``What we're working on.'' So, for 25 years,
    we've been working on them.
        In the last decade, the EPA has issued about a thousand
    rules a year, and yet the lead and copper rule has not been
    finalized in 25. When do you expect that that will be done?
        Mr. Beauvais. As I said before, my expectation is that
    we'll propose the rule in 2017.
        Mr. Russell. Well, according to EPA's agenda that was
    released last fall, it stated that the agency hopes to finalize
    the rule in 2018. So, once again, we see a moving target. We've
    got it, we'll take it back, we'll get back to you, we're
    working on it. That's not the core mission of protecting the
    health of people where they live, where they work, and where
    they recreate.
        In fact, we've seen in cases in Flint that General Motors
    determined that the water was so substandard that they shut it
    down. They said, we're not going to use that water. It was
    unfit for a work environment. And yet we've seen procedures
    that have moved on that made the community even more at risk
    over time.
        Dr. Edwards, do you believe that the EPA is violating the
    law and its statutory requirements?
        Mr. Edwards. Yes, I do. I don't think they're following or
    enforcing the law.
        Mr. Russell. What do you believe has created this shift
    away from the EPA's core mission?
        Mr. Edwards. Well, they have a very cozy relationship with
    water utilities. That's a good example of regulatory capture, I
    think. They're not listening to voices of people who have been
    harmed by this regulation in Washington, D.C., Durham, and
    Flint. And that's what happens when you listen to one group and
    ignore the people who are betrayed by this rule.
        Mr. Russell. For 25 years, the lead and copper rule has
    been a problem. Communities don't really have certainty. They
    don't have finalization. So now a patchwork of requirements
    exist nationwide. How do we fix it?
        Mr. Edwards. Well, for starters, you could enforce the
    existing law. I think----
        Mr. Russell. Imagine that.
        Mr. Edwards. --the existing law would have stopped Flint.
    It would have stopped Washington, D.C. if it wasn't for all
    these extra instructions that are being added to the rule,
    allowing people to throw out samples for eight different
    reasons, none of these things would have happened.
        So alls I want is for them to enforce the existing law.
    That's all I've been requesting, and my colleagues that have
    been working on this for the last 10 years in Washington, D.C.
        Mr. Russell. Mr. Beauvais, we see that there's been a
    statutory requirement to do updates and mandates, and yet, you
    know, by your testimony, we see dates all around that really
    don't sync with previous statements from the EPA as far as, you
    know, when this lead and copper rule would be mandated. We've
    heard testimony that not only is convincing but it's condemning
    to the priorities of the EPA.
        What's your answer to this?
        Mr. Beauvais. I want to emphasize that it's EPA's position
    and it has been EPA's position throughout this situation that
    the water system in Flint was required to apply corrosion
    control upon making the switch to Flint River water. That is a
    conclusion and a view that MDEQ resisted throughout this
    process. And if that rule had been observed here and corrosion
    control had been applied, this situation would not have
    occurred.
        Mr. Russell. And yet we have a trail of emails, Mr.
    Beauvais, where your own agency and Region 5 tried to belittle,
    obstruct, and pretty much eliminate the voices from the
    community. And yet now you're going to shift that to the
    Michigan DEQ? Is that what I'm hearing you say?
        Mr. Beauvais. Certainly, when we look back on this
    situation, knowing what we know now, everyone should have done
    everything humanly possible to avoid this situation. At EPA, we
    need to go back and look and understand what happened and make
    sure that it never happens again. But I do think it's important
    to remember how we got in this situation.
        Mr. Russell. 1991, 2004, 2007. What's it going to be again?
    How many more Ms. Walters are we going to have to hear? Which
    city is next?
        Get the rule finalized. You owe it to the American people.
    We have certain expectations. And while we all have our
    different opinions about the thousands of rules that get passed
    here in the last decade, I think this one, with lead and copper
    in drinking water, is pretty important.
        With that, Mr. Chairman, I'll yield back my time.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        We will now recognize the gentleman from California, Mr.
    Lieu, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Lieu. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Let's call what happened in Flint what it is: a crime of
    epic proportions. We have tens of thousands of women, men, and
    children poisoned by lead when it leached from the lead metal
    pipes. Those most responsible know who they are. They should
    resign, and some of them should be prosecuted.
        I'd like to focus today my comments and questions on how do
    you make this right for the residents of Flint. I believe we
    help make it right by giving them a permanent solution. That
    means replacing their lead pipes.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Lieu. So I want to enter, first of all, into the
    record, Mr. Chair, an article from Salon dated Monday, January
    25, by Antoaneta Roussi about Flint.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
        And I would remind the audience that no applause or booing
    or any reaction from the audience would be appropriate for this
    hearing. Thank you.
        Mr. Lieu. Mr. Creagh, let me read a few sentences from this
    article, ``The Safe Drinking Water Act required the EPA to set
    standards for the concentration of lead in public pipes, with a
    push for lead-free. This steered the country on a road toward
    replacing old water pipes with PVC, also known as plastic
    pipes, as an eco-friendly alternative. However, many poorer
    municipalities instead turned to anticorrosive agents as a
    cheaper and faster solution.''
        Had Flint had plastic pipes, we wouldn't be sitting here
    today, correct?
        Mr. Creagh. That's correct.
        Mr. Lieu. And even with anticorrosion agents, over time the
    metal pipes still corrode. Isn't that correct?
        Mr. Creagh. Yes, sir.
        Could I amend my earlier answer? Even with plastic pipes,
    you would still have to look at the fixtures within the various
    facilities. And so I just wanted to put a little sharper point
    on that.
        Mr. Lieu. Thank you.
        Mr. Creagh. Thank you.
        Mr. Lieu. And we have over 850 water main breaks a day in
    America caused by corrosion, even with anticorrosion agents in
    the water. Isn't that roughly correct, Mr. Creagh?
        Mr. Creagh. I do not know that number.
        Mr. Lieu. We have a lot of water main breaks, correct?
        Mr. Creagh. That's a true statement.
        Mr. Lieu. All right.
        So I want to enter now into the record an article. It says,
    ``Flint Water Crisis: Mayor Says 'Lead Pipes Have Got to Go.'''
    NBC News. Could I enter that into the record, Mr. Chair?
        Chairman Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
        Mr. Lieu. Would you agree, Mr. Creagh, with Flint Mayor
    Karen Weaver that there needs to be the rapid removal of lead
    pipes now and to be replaced with a nonlead alternative instead
    of the Band-Aid solution of just anticorrosive agents or simply
    recoating these lead pipes?
        Mr. Creagh. I think it's a complicated issue, as
    Congresswoman Norton had pointed out that partial replacement
    may cause additional problems. And so that's the reason we're
    working with the experts to make sure that whatever happens
    does not----
        Mr. Lieu. What about full replacement with plastic pipes or
    other nonlead pipes?
        Mr. Creagh. That certainly would be one solution.
        Mr. Lieu. Okay.
        I'm going to now ask you another question. Are you aware
    that many newer, wealthier cities in America and Canada have
    switched to plastic pipes as an alternative to lead pipes?
        Mr. Creagh. I think there's a prohibition that was in the
    building codes to prohibit the continued use of lead pipes.
        Mr. Lieu. Okay.
        So let me switch to Mr. Beauvais of the Federal EPA.
        I'd like to enter into the record, Mr. Chair, a report from
    the National Resources Defense Council. It says, ``Study Finds
    Safety of Drinking Water in U.S. Cities At Risk.'' NRDC reports
    on drinking water systems in 19 cities and found that
    pollution, old pipes, and outdated treatment threaten tap water
    quality.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
        Mr. Lieu. Mr. Beauvais, we really have a national problem,
    don't we, of lead pipes all around America that leach lead into
    the water system even with anticorrosive agents, correct?
        Mr. Beauvais. There are millions of lead service lines
    across the country in thousands of systems, and this is a
    challenge for us nationwide.
        Mr. Lieu. And we have hundreds of water main breaks because
    those pipes are being corroded, correct?
        Mr. Beauvais. Yes, we have significant water main breaks.
        Mr. Lieu. And there are nonlead alternatives, such as
    plastic piping or other pipes, that would not leach lead into
    the water supply, correct?
        Mr. Beauvais. In lieu of lead service lines, yes.
        Mr. Lieu. Now, is there an EPA rule on plastic pipes?
        Mr. Beauvais. I'm not aware of a specific rule on plastic
    pipes.
        Mr. Lieu. And there's an EPA rule on lead and copper
    because those are toxic, correct?
        Mr. Beauvais. That's correct.
        Mr. Lieu. Okay. Is there any reason the EPA doesn't look at
    having municipalities switch to plastic pipes or other nonlead
    alternatives?
        Mr. Beauvais. There actually are lead service line
    replacement requirements that can be triggered under the lead
    and copper rule that exists today when certain action levels
    are exceeded. This will be a major subject of engagement and
    analysis in the lead and copper rule revisions. We have advice
    from the National Drinking Water Advisory Council and from
    other stakeholders on these issues.
        It's important to remember that, even as we look at issues
    of full lead service line replacements, I believe Dr. Edwards
    and others have advised that if that's going to be done it has
    to be done correctly in order not to actually create bigger
    problems.
        Mr. Lieu. Thank you.
        I'm going to make a request of the chairman and then yield
    back. If you have another hearing, I do ask that perhaps we
    have a witness that can talk about how we solve this on an
    ongoing basis.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        I now recognize the gentleman from South Carolina, Mr.
    Mulvaney, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Mulvaney. I thank the chairman.
        And I thought something that Ms. Eleanor Holmes Norton
    mentioned earlier was very insightful, which is I think the
    purpose here is really to sort of treat this as a problem-
    solving exercise versus a blame-laying. There will be plenty of
    time for that and also other people involved with that. Folks
    are, some of you, very new to this process.
        I want to go back and look at the timeline for a little
    bit. Help me understand this.
        Mr. Beauvais, you said that the EPA learned about this in
    the spring of 2015. By the way, do you have a month on that,
    just for filling in the timeline?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is that EPA first learned
    that the city was not applying corrosion control to its system
    in late April of 2015.
        Mr. Mulvaney. April 2015.
        Now, when did Flint move the water supply to the Flint
    River, Mr. Creagh?
        Mr. Creagh. I believe that was moved in April of 2014.
        Mr. Mulvaney. Okay.
        Mr. Creagh. But I'll check that with our timeline here for
    accuracy, sir.
        Mr. Mulvaney. Does that generally comport with----
        Mr. Creagh. Yes.
        Mr. Mulvaney. And is it generally your understanding that
    they did not use the phosphate or other similar treatment from
    the very beginning?
        Mr. Creagh. Yes.
        Mr. Mulvaney. Okay.
        Dr. Edwards, I want to ask you a question. If I start
    pulling water out of the Flint River and I put it through these
    particular pipes, how long will it take before the water has an
    impact on the quality of the drinking water that people are
    drinking?
        Mr. Edwards. It has----
        Mr. Mulvaney. Is it immediate? Does it take a couple months
    for it to break down the lining of the pipes? How long does
    that take?
        Mr. Edwards. It takes a period of weeks to about a month.
    And that's when the first consumer complaint started arising
    about red water, which is iron rust falling into the water.
        Mr. Mulvaney. So, give or take, now we're at May of 2014.
    We're still 11 months from the EPA knowing about it. But here
    we are, May of 2014.
        Mr. Creagh, I think you said that it was the city's
    responsibility to certify that the standards had been met. How
    often are they supposed to do that?
        Mr. Creagh. I think it's on an annual basis. I believe it's
    on an annual basis.
        Mr. Mulvaney. On an annual basis. Okay. So when was the
    most relevant certification in that 2014-2015 timeline?
        Mr. Creagh. So I'll sharpen my answer. I believe that they
    send in monthly results, but I think that there's an annual
    review.
        Mr. Mulvaney. All right. So let's focus on the monthly
    results first. So they're sending results to you folks every
    month on the quality of the water in Flint, right?
        Mr. Creagh. Well, I'm not saying I have any expertise on
    the particulars of the reporting aspect. So I really can't
    speak to that directly.
        Mr. Mulvaney. Okay, but Dr. Edwards is nodding his head.
    So, clearly, somebody--what does the city do on that? You see
    what I'm trying to get to.
        Mr. Creagh. There's a monthly report on----
        Mr. Mulvaney. Okay.
        Mr. Creagh. --distribution system monitoring.
        Mr. Mulvaney. Did the monthly report that the city of Flint
    was delivering beginning in April of 2014 show that the water
    quality in Flint was a problem?
        Mr. Creagh. It's my understanding it didn't, that it met
    the Safe Drinking Water Act quality parameters.
        Mr. Mulvaney. Okay. Did the city ever send a report, the
    monthly report, that said the water didn't meet the standards,
    ever?
        Mr. Creagh. No. It's a different question, and question and
    answer and question and answer. But let me just help you with
    that, sir?
        Mr. Mulvaney. Sure.
        Mr. Creagh. So the water quality parameters that are
    required under the Safe Drinking Water Act don't necessarily
    ask for lead to be tested at that point in time.
        Mr. Mulvaney. Okay. Wow.
        Is that true, that the EPA doesn't require them to send
    information on lead?
        Mr. Beauvais. I believe that you may be talking about two
    different things, Mr. Congressman.
        Mr. Mulvaney. It's possible. I don't know anything about
    this.
        Mr. Beauvais. The water quality parameter monitoring, as I
    understand it, at the drinking water--compliance with the lead
    and copper rule is actually monitored and tested through
    samples that are taken in the distribution system, because lead
    leaches into the water from the lead service lines and so
    forth. And so those samples are not taken at the water
    treatment plant.
        I want to add, however, that in 2014 the Flint system
    actually had multiple violations of Safe Drinking Water Act
    standards, including the total coliform rule and the
    disinfection byproducts rule.
        Mr. Mulvaney. It's unfortunate we only have 5 minutes. We
    can't do a proper deposition in 5 minutes, especially with four
    witnesses. So I apologize, I'm not going to--I've got a lot
    more questions on the timeline.
        Let me skip ahead to another question, which is Mr. Palmer
    just showed me something that says that my State does not
    report to the CDC on lead in water. Do they report to the EPA,
    Mr. Beauvais? This is South Carolina.
        Mr. Beauvais. With regard to lead in water, well, the South
    Carolina State government would be the primacy agency in South
    Carolina.
        Mr. Mulvaney. But do they tell you?
        Mr. Beauvais. Those results are reported up through the
    EPA's data system.
        Mr. Mulvaney. So while South Carolina might not tell CDC,
    the Centers for Disease Control, they may tell the EPA about
    the quality of the water, including lead presence in my water
    in South Carolina.
        Mr. Beauvais. I would expect so, yes.
        Mr. Mulvaney. And did Michigan do the same thing?
        Mr. Beauvais. Ultimately, yes.
        Mr. Mulvaney. Okay.
        Again, my time is up. And I apologize, that wasn't very
    fruitful, but I'd like to continue this another time if we can.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        We will now recognize the gentlewoman from New Jersey, Mrs.
    Watson Coleman, for 5 minutes.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I've listened to this entire panel discussion, and I have
    to tell you, I have--my questions are going to be directed
    first to Mr. Creagh, and then I have a question for Mr.
    Beauvais.
        It is clear to me that the responsibility doesn't lie with
    the local officials, because the local officials were as much
    victims as the unelected local residents. But you, Mr. Creagh,
    as the director of the Department of Environmental Quality,
    whatever it's called in Michigan, you, at that level, you are
    primarily responsible. You and the Governor of the State of New
    Jersey--the State of Michigan--I've got that problem in New
    Jersey, just to be clear. But the Governor placing those
    individuals in that responsibility over the city of Flint,
    Michigan, and then taking all authority away from the elected
    officials in the city of Michigan, you have primary
    responsibility here. And your apology after the fact rings
    hollow.
        So I have a couple of questions. Mr. Creagh, your boss,
    Governor Snyder, appointed emergency managers for the city of
    Flint from 2011 through 2015. Based on the law, Governor
    Snyder, championed in 2011, his emergency managers took over
    all the powers exercised by Flint's city council and the mayor.
    If his emergency managers was something the elected
    representatives of Flint didn't like, there was nothing that
    they could do about it.
        On March 23, 2015, the city council attempted to reverse
    the decision to use Flint River water. They adopted a
    resolution by a vote of seven to one, and I quote, to return to
    the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department for the purchase of
    water for its citizens.
        Mr. Creagh, are you aware of that resolution and that vote?
        Mr. Creagh. I have not seen that resolution.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. The problem is that Flint was still
    under the control of the emergency manager, Jerry Ambrose in
    this case.
        The next day, on March 24, 2015, Mr. Ambrose overruled the
    city council's vote. Let me read to you what he said, and I
    quote: ``Flint water today is safe by all EPA and MDEQ
    standards, and the city is working daily to improve its
    quality. Water from Detroit is no safer than water from
    Flint.''
        Are you aware of that statement?
        Mr. Creagh. I am not.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. Mr. Ambrose called the effort by the
    city council to stop using Flint River water, and I quote,
    ``incomprehensible.''
        Mr. Creagh, do you agree that Mr. Ambrose's actions were an
    absolutely horrible decision for the people of Flint?
        Mr. Creagh. I cannot address Mr. Ambrose's actions. I can
    say that the plant in Flint had been used historically as a
    backup water supply utilizing the Flint River, had passed its
    performance standards, had been tested on a quarterly basis----
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. That's very interesting, Mr. Creagh,
    that I'm sitting here looking at water being held in baby
    bottles and water bottles that looks like lemonade and iced tea
    and not clear water.
        Mr. Creagh, if Mr. Ambrose let the city council's decision
    to stand, the actual amount of lead exposure in Flint would
    have been reduced. Is that not so? Can you say ``yes'' or
    ``no'' to that?
        Mr. Creagh. I'm sorry, would you repeat that one more time?
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. If he had let the city council's
    resolution to return to the Detroit water system as a source of
    water, would the actual amount of lead exposure in Flint--would
    it have been reduced?
        Mr. Creagh. I believe that's a true statement.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. Mrs. Walters, this decision by the
    Governor's emergency manager for Mr. Ambrose came after the
    State was told about the extremely high levels of lead in your
    house in February, right?
        Ms. Walters. Correct, February 25 and March 17.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. And I'm so very sorry for you and the
    residents and the children of the city of Flint. It seems to me
    that the decision by the Governor's emergency manager was one
    of the worst actions in this entire debacle.
        Mr. Creagh, how long have you been involved in State
    government at the director level in other departments?
        Mr. Creagh. I was the director of the Michigan Department
    of Agriculture from January of 2010 through July of 2011 and
    director of the Michigan Department of Natural Resources from
    that time until January 4.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. Do you consider yourself a member of
    Governor Snyder's team?
        Mr. Creagh. I'm a member of Governor Snyder's cabinet.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. Do you know who owns the Karegnondi
    Water Authority? And do you know if there is any relationship
    between any of the principals of that authority to the
    Governor, to his campaigns, or to the party that is represented
    by the Governor in the State of Michigan?
        Mr. Creagh. I have no such knowledge of that.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. Okay.
        Finally, Mr. Beauvais, what is the most that you could have
    done as a department of EPA to correct this problem had you
    responded in a timely and sufficient manner? What is the extent
    of your authority? What could you have done?
        Mr. Beauvais. Congresswoman, that's an excellent question,
    and I think that's exactly what we need to take a look at right
    now.
        The EPA needs to look at--the EPA was working with MDEQ to
    try to get it to do the right thing. But the questions that we
    need to ask are, at what point in time should the EPA either
    have forced MDEQ to do the right thing or provided the public
    directly with information?
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. That is my question.
        Mr. Chairman, if I just might explore this 1 second?
        Chairman Chaffetz. One more, yes.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. What do you mean when you said should
    EPA have forced the situation? What could EPA do within its
    authority that could have forced the situation?
        Mr. Beauvais. I don't want to speculate with regard to the
    specific facts and specific timelines. I do recognize that EPA
    has emergency response authority under the Safe Drinking Water
    Act.
        Mrs. Watson Coleman. Thanks. And for the record, I wanted
    it noted that you didn't answer my question.
        Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Duly noted.
        We will now recognize the gentleman from Alabama, Mr.
    Palmer, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Beauvais, in December of 2000, EPA put out this report
    on America's children and the environment. And on page 41, it
    says there is no demonstrated safe concentration of lead in the
    blood. No demonstrated concentration, none.
        Is that still the EPA's opinion?
        Mr. Beauvais. There is no safe level of lead exposure.
        Mr. Palmer. All right.
        Following up on questions that have been asked by several
    members about the lead and copper rule, the last time it was
    updated was 2007. Prior to that, it was 1991. The Safe Drinking
    Water Act requires that the lead and copper rule be updated at
    least every 6 years. Can you explain to me why we're delaying
    this out to 2017, possibly 2018?
        Mr. Beauvais. The current process involves soliciting
    advice and input from our National Drinking Water Advisory
    Council, which includes representatives----
        Mr. Palmer. Mr. Beauvais, you had an EPA official put out a
    report about what was going on in Flint, Michigan. You didn't
    need to solicit anything else. You could've acted. You've got a
    roomful of people here now who have been impacted because of
    it. So what are you waiting on?
        Mr. Beauvais. We are not waiting. And I want to emphasize
    that the revisions to the rule, while very important, are not
    the primary issue with regard to the Flint situation.
        Mr. Palmer. I understand that, but I'm just--look,
    following up on Mr. Mulvaney's question about reporting to the
    CDC, there's a report, 2014, of the counties that have elevated
    lead levels. Of the top 10, number one and number three are in
    Alabama. I don't know of anything that the EPA has done on
    that.
        Does the EPA get the data from the CDC and act on it?
        Mr. Beauvais. I would expect that the EPA has access to the
    data from CDC.
        Mr. Palmer. I didn't ask you that. I'm sure you've got
    access to the data. Do you act on it? Because these aren't the
    only kids in here that are impacted by lead levels. So do you
    act on it?
        Mr. Beauvais. Absolutely. Blood lead levels are affected by
    multiple sources of lead, including lead in paint and lead in
    soil. And the EPA has programs, along with our State partners,
    that address all these issues. Lead in drinking water also is
    important.
        Mr. Palmer. Let me direct something to Mr. Edwards.
        Mr. Edwards, it appears to me that the irony of this is the
    EPA wants to regulate everything. You know, they want to
    regulate ditch water and puddles in backyards. Yet, in Georgia,
    they had a toxic spill; they initially denied responsibility
    for it. You had another EPA whistleblower, Dave Lewis, one of
    your top scientists, who revealed that the EPA was involved in
    this, released an enormous amount of toxic material into the
    groundwater, into the creek, including lead, and EPA tried to
    cover that up.
        What do you know about that, Dr. Edwards?
        Mr. Edwards. Nothing. I know David Lewis and I respect him,
    but I don't know the specifics of that case.
        Mr. Palmer. Well, the specifics of the case is that the EPA
    violated their own rule on releasing lead into groundwater. And
    this blows my mind. You've got people whose lives are going to
    be--I mean, kids whose lives are going to be affected into
    adulthood because of this. It's not just a Flint problem. This
    is across the board.
        I can't remember who it was that made this point, but the
    EPA has failed in its responsibility. It's lost credibility.
    And this problem, I think, it's beyond--I mean, it's not just
    the EPA. There's malfeasance at EPA. I think there's problems
    at the State level, at the local level.
        And as it has been pointed out, as Mr. Mulvaney pointed
    out, I'm not so much interested in the blame. And you have to
    figure out where the problem is before you fix it. But my
    interest is in fixing the problem, make sure that we don't ever
    have to have another group of people come in here with their
    children, in front of this committee or any other congressional
    committee, to try to get the government to do what it's
    supposed to do.
        Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        We will now recognize the gentlewoman from the Virgin
    Islands, Ms. Plaskett, for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Plaskett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you, Mr.
    Ranking Member, for the opportunity to speak with these
    witnesses today.
        I first want to let the people of Flint, Michigan, know
    that you have my and my constituents' heartfelt condolences on
    what's happened and the devastation that's going to occur to
    you all in the days--in the years moving forward.
        A few days ago, the Boston Globe ran an article that
    advocates that Flint and its tainted water epitomizes the worst
    kind of environmental racism at the hands of government
    agencies. That conclusion may be true, but what is happening in
    Flint is really just symptomatic of what is happening in
    economically disadvantaged neighborhoods all across America
    regardless of the race of the inhabitants. It continues to
    happen because America tolerates environmental hazards and
    polluting of the poor and people of color every day.
        The lead and other contaminants in Flint water is just one
    kind of environmental hazard. For many other economically
    challenged communities, toxic chemicals are stored in nearby
    facilities or used abundantly in manufacturing plants.
        Everyone appears to be shocked and surprised by what has
    happened in Flint, Michigan. Unfortunately, it's really
    unfortunate, but I'm not shocked at all. I'm not shocked
    because this is par for the course. This is business as usual
    in America. It's unfortunate and a travesty that we have crises
    like these occurring around the country every day, whether it's
    toxic drinking water, toxic land, subhuman tenements, crumbling
    schools.
        For the most part, the common denominator is communities
    that are majority minority, low-income, socioeconomically
    challenged areas. That's the common factors in most of those
    places where we find that. That's the common denominator in
    Flint, along with other places. Eleanor Holmes Norton talked
    about it in D.C certain Americans don't count for much.
        Governors, Federal agencies, State emergency managers want
    to wag their fingers at towns for telling them that they don't
    manage their money properly and bring overseers over them who
    don't want to expend the money in the right manner to support
    those areas.
        Unfortunately, this Congress is the same. We create select
    committees and drive all kinds of important people to testify
    over issues that they think are important--that they think are
    important. Not to disparage or make light of the gravity of the
    incident, but this Congress created the Benghazi Committee over
    the death of four Americans. That committee has spent nearly $6
    million to investigate that, but we can't get the Governor of
    Michigan at this hearing to give responses for actions that are
    going to affect 9,000 children. That's a shame. And that's
    business as usual.
        But I want to talk about the money that was spent and where
    that money was spent.
        Mr. Creagh, there are many people in the Michigan State
    government that could have stopped this tragedy from occurring,
    and despite the fact that they oversaw and contributed to this
    tragedy, Governor Snyder continues to place them in positions
    of increasing responsibility.
        Let's take the emergency manager as an example. Mr. Creagh,
    did you know that Mr. Earley was paid $180,000 for doing his
    job as the emergency manager?
        Mr. Creagh. I did not.
        Ms. Plaskett. I have an article here in a Detroit newspaper
    that talks about that.
        During Mr. Earley's tenure, tens of thousands of men,
    women, and children were exposed to extremely unhealthy levels
    of lead. Yet Governor Snyder then rewarded him, that same Mr.
    Earley, with the new position of emergency manager of Detroit's
    public school system.
        Mr. Creagh, did you know that Mr. Earley received a salary
    on that job and what that salary was?
        Mr. Creagh. I'm not aware of Mr. Earley's salary.
        Ms. Plaskett. Did you know that he received a salary of
    $221,000, received a promotion and a $41,000 raise for that
    position?
        Mr. Creagh, do you think that Governor Snyder was
    exercising good judgment in promoting Mr. Earley after the job
    he did in Flint's water crisis?
        Mr. Creagh. Mr. Earley's salary is between the Governor and
    himself.
        Ms. Plaskett. I didn't ask you about his salary. I asked
    you whether it was good judgment in promoting him to that
    position.
        Mr. Creagh. I'm not in a position to refer to the
    Governor's judgment.
        Ms. Plaskett. And I think maybe others here would believe
    that, based on his abysmal performance in Flint, do you think
    he deserves to be appointed to another job that involves taking
    care of the health and safety of thousands of children?
        So, Ms. Walters, are you aware that Mr. Earley's salary was
    paid for by Flint, the town, not the State of Michigan?
        Ms. Walters. No, I was not.
        Ms. Plaskett. That it's your tax dollars that were paying
    for him to do the job that he did on those children.
        So Governor Snyder, for reasons only he knows, rewarded Mr.
    Earley for the job he did in Flint with another job that paid
    him $221,000.
        Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for your attempt to
    subpoena Mr. Earley to appear here today. And I'm going to ask
    you to continue your attempt to enforce that subpoena and that
    Mr. Earley, along with the Governor, will appear in front of
    this committee in another hearing in short order.
        Thank you for the time.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you.
        I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
        In Congress, we have obviously chief jurisdiction on the
    Federal Government, the EPA. We have a more limited role, by
    the very nature of tax dollars and accountability, at the State
    level. There's still a role, but nevertheless it's still less.
    Our focus, many times, on the Federal component is one
    primarily of jurisdiction, dollars, power of the purse. That's
    why I feel so adamantly about it. It is not to excuse what
    happened at the city or at the State level. But the remedy on
    how to deal with this often is at the city, county, or State
    level, and we will still look at those things.
        And, clearly, there is no doubt in anybody's mind that
    there were dramatic failures at the city level, at the State
    level. And there is a complete case to be made about the need
    to look at what happened between that State emergency manager,
    the Governor's office, the Michigan Environmental Quality. I
    understand that. But a lot of our focus will naturally be upon
    the EPA because of the nature of it being a Federal entity and
    this being the United States Congress.
        With that said, we've had something festering at the EPA
    for a long period of time. And often where there's smoke,
    there's a bigger fire. Remember, it was Gina McCarthy, the EPA
    now-Administrator, who was overseeing a guy named John Beale
    who was dealing with air quality. It's one of the few times the
    administration actually prosecuted, and he had to serve time in
    jail for fraud. She got a promotion. Now she's in charge of the
    EPA.
        Here's my question for Mr. Beauvais. And this is my
    frustration. You've said that it's a high priority, but what
    evidence do you support to us or can you give to us that this
    is a high priority for the EPA?
        In July of last year, we highlighted the problems in Region
    5. We talked about Susan Hedman. We talked about the sexual
    misconduct. We had three people who stepped up and said we've
    got a problem here. Was anything done about that that you're
    aware of?
        Mr. Beauvais. I'm not privy to personnel discussions and
    matters within EPA 5----
        Chairman Chaffetz. Nothing. She just retired--no
    consequence--on Monday.
        And so my point is, when we have these discussions and
    hearings and you've got three whistleblowers, good, decent,
    hardworking, patriotic people saying we've got a problem here,
    you have sexual misconduct, you have retaliation, guess what?
    It bleeds over. And so then you have a good person, like Mr.
    Del Toral, who steps up.
        What's the lesson that is learned?
        Mr. Beauvais. I actually think that Mr. Del Toral is
    representative of the vast majority of EPA employees, who are
    incredibly dedicated----
        Chairman Chaffetz. But you're here testifying that it's a
    high priority. He brings that up--he went to her house in
    February, correct? And it isn't until January of the
    following--it took a year from the time he first showed up at
    Ms. Walters' home till the EPA actually issued a directive,
    correct?
        Mr. Beauvais. EPA was working with MDEQ to try to get them
    to do the right thing. Ultimately----
        Chairman Chaffetz. They were suppressing those reports.
    They were telling they were preliminary.
        Mr. Edwards, what did you see as you looked at those
    documents. Were they trying to do that, or were they trying to
    suppress the evidence?
        Mr. Edwards. EPA was aiding, abetting, and emboldening
    MDEQ's coverup of this problem.
        Chairman Chaffetz. How do you respond to that?
        Mr. Beauvais. I think that the specific facts of those
    matters ought to be looked at by the IG----
        Chairman Chaffetz. We're looking at them right here today.
        Mr. Beauvais. I understand----
        Chairman Chaffetz. You're in charge of water quality. He's
    telling you that they aided and abetted the making sure that
    that information didn't get out. Why?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is that they were working
    with MDEQ to try to get action taken on the issue, but it----
        Chairman Chaffetz. That's not what the evidence shows.
    That's not what those documents show. They kept saying that
    they were preliminary, you shouldn't rely on that data, don't
    look at that data.
        Is that correct, Mr. Edwards?
        Mr. Edwards. That's absolutely correct.
        Chairman Chaffetz. What's your response to that?
        Mr. Beauvais. I can't speak for the specific statements
    that were made in those communications. My understanding is
    that EPA was working closely with MDEQ to try to get them to do
    the right thing; that in July they agreed the corrosion control
    needed to be applied; that in August they sent a letter to the
    city saying the corrosion control should be applied; and that--
    --
        Chairman Chaffetz. Okay. Let's----
        Mr. Beauvais. --the city announced in September that
    corrosion control would be applied.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Let's talk about the right thing to do.
    What's the number-one thing you do if you're trying to warn the
    citizens, let the citizens know? What's the number-one thing
    you should let them know?
        Mr. Beauvais. I think that that's exactly the right
    question to ask.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I'm asking you that question. And I'm
    glad you agree it's the exact right question. You're from the
    EPA; you're in charge of water quality. I want to know what the
    answer is.
        Mr. Beauvais. It's important for EPA to go back and
    understand all the facts----
        Chairman Chaffetz. No, it's not. No, it's not. It's
    important for the EPA to tell the public that they're poisoning
    their kids if they drink the water.
        Mr. Beauvais. I absolutely agree, and----
        Chairman Chaffetz. Then why didn't they do it? They sat on
    that for almost a year.
        Mr. Beauvais. Administrator McCarthy issued an elevation
    policy this January emphasizing----
        Chairman Chaffetz. This January. They had it for nearly a
    year. The EPA Administrator went to Flint yesterday. The EPA
    first went to her home in February of last year. Why did it
    take a year?
        Mr. Beauvais. I can't answer that question. All I can say
    is that they were working with----
        Chairman Chaffetz. Then why don't we fire the whole lot of
    them? What good is the EPA if they're not going to do that?
        If you're not going to telling the citizens--my daughter,
    okay, she's getting married. I get emotional about that. She's
    moving to Michigan. Are you telling me that the EPA, knowing
    that they're putting lead in--there's lead in the water, that
    they're not going to tell those kids?
        Because that's exactly what happened. They knew that. Mr.
    Del Toral knew that, didn't he? When did he know that?
        Mr. Beauvais. Mr. Del Toral did testing on Ms. Walters'
    water in early 2015 and knew that the lead levels were
    incredibly high in her water.
        Chairman Chaffetz. And when was that?
        Mr. Beauvais. I believe that it was in February of 2015.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Yes. Why wasn't that made public?
        Mr. Beauvais. I don't know the answer to that question. I
    think that they----
        Chairman Chaffetz. You can't come to a hearing before
    Congress and be in charge of water quality for the EPA and not
    know the answer to that question. You can't. You've got to know
    why that is.
        And don't tell me that some inspector general is going to
    come look at that. That ain't good enough. We keep hearing
    that. That ain't good enough.
        The crying shame here is, when they knew there was a
    problem, they should have told the public. They should have
    told DEQ. They should have told the experts. And they should
    have been out there to warn people like Ms. Walters.
        General Motors knew about this and stopped using the water,
    for goodness' sake. But you know what? The families don't have
    the resources that General Motors does.
        Mr. Edwards, when do you think they knew, and when should
    they have actually made that public?
        Mr. Edwards. I think they should have made it public as
    soon as Ms. Walters figured out that her child was lead
    poisoned and they were not following the Federal law. But even
    if you excuse that, when Mr. Del Toral put his professional
    career on the line to have that memo written and gave it to
    LeeAnne, when they started covering up at that point, I really
    personally believe it was criminal.
        Chairman Chaffetz. And that's why we will continue to
    investigate this.
        One other thing. And I appreciate the generosity of the
    time. Why has the EPA failed to fulfill the FOIA request? This
    committee has jurisdiction on FOIA. We have done a reform
    package that Mr. Cummings was very involved with. When Mr.
    Edwards, he works for--for his life on studying water. We need
    good people like Mr. Edwards to be able to access the data and
    the information of the EPA. Why can't we fulfill these FOIA
    requests? Because you are supposed to do it in 21 days, as Mr.
    Meadows pointed out, and it has been 9 years. When is he going
    to get that information?
        Mr. Beauvais. I don't know the specifics with regard to the
    FOIA requests, but as I said before, I will take this back and
    ensure that it's a high priority.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I think that's a fair answer for this
    question. I appreciate the EPA responding to us in that regard
    in a timely manner. But we have to know the answer to that
    question. You can't play hide the documents. Here, I have gone
    way past my time. We have other members who need to ask
    questions.
        So let me yield back, and we will go to Mr. Clay for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Clay. And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        If Governor Snyder was here, I'd sure like to ask him if
    the water was toxic in Grosse Pointe instead of Flint, would
    you have denied it for a year? And would you have stood by and
    stonewalled while those children were poisoned with
    neurotoxins?
        Mr. Chairman, we need to use that same passion that we just
    heard from you to get Governor Snyder here and get him on the
    record so that we all know what was going through his
    administration and through his mind to allow this to continue.
    This is a pattern. This is a pattern in Michigan, and as Ms.
    Plaskett said, it's a pattern all over this country, how
    communities of color as well as low- and moderate-income
    communities are victims of environmental injustice.
        You know, and I represent St. Louis, so there are ample
    examples of how this environmental racism plays out, how we had
    a facility next to a Boys & Girls Club where 1,000 kids were
    exposed daily to PCBs left by manufacturing plants, to lead,
    and overexposure to other toxins.
        Let me ask Mrs. Walters. I am so sorry that you and your
    family, like so many of your neighbors, are living through this
    manmade nightmare. As a father, I can well remember the fear
    and anger I felt when my own daughter tested positive for lead
    at a very young age. And that was a long time ago, and she is
    doing fine today. But I want to ask you first: How are your
    children?
        Ms. Walters. My children are dealing with health issues.
    The one with the lead poisoning has a compromised immune
    system, and he has only gained 3-and-a-half pounds in the last
    year.
        Mr. Clay. So you believe they have suffered serious
    impairment.
        Ms. Walters. Yes, sir. He is still dealing with the anemia,
    and he has developed speech issues.
        Mr. Clay. Let me ask you, and I'm going to ask--this is for
    the entire panel. How do we repair the damage that has been
    caused by the gross negligence of the State of Michigan in
    protecting its citizens? How do we repair the damage to your
    children, to your neighbors, and even possibly to you? How do
    we do that, Ms. Walters? Let's start here, and I want to go
    down the table.
        Ms. Walters. First, we take responsibility for what's
    happened. Then we change the laws and quit talking about the
    NDWAC. The NDWAC is not there to represent the people that the
    EPA is getting their guidance from. They are there to represent
    utilities and protect utilities. Let's get that on the record
    right now. There is only one person that's been on the NDWAC
    fighting against what's being represented there. And that's why
    I keep saying, if what the NDWAC is suggesting is adopted by
    the EPA, it will, what happened in Flint will happen throughout
    the United States. There is a very big possibility.
        Second of all, we need to make sure that the children, and
    all the people in Flint are taken care of healthwise. I know my
    children are going to need help with that. I know other
    children in the city are going to need help with that--and not
    just children under the age of 6. I know a 15-year-old who has
    severe liver issues now, who has lead poisoning; a 44-year-old
    man who had an eye stroke because of problems with his blood
    pressure with his lead poisoning. So doing right for the people
    is going to be making sure we are taken care of and making sure
    we get clean water, get the pipes replaced once we have the
    science behind it to see exactly what we need to do to get the
    replacement done.
        Mr. Clay. Thank you for that response.
        Mr. Edwards, how do we repair the damage, the physical and
    the mental health effects of what has occurred?
        Mr. Edwards. Well, the fact of the matter is that the
    damage from lead is irreversible. That's why we have to work on
    primary prevention and make sure nothing like this ever
    happens.
        That's why we have these laws, but we can take steps to
    ameliorate the harm and these are being proposed by Dr. Mona
    Hanna-Attisha and Hurley and the local medical community.
        Mr. Clay. Yeah.
        Mr. Edwards. And we support those recommendations
    wholeheartedly.
        In terms of the trauma of the citizens of Flint, that's
    going to take a lot longer to repair because they have been
    fundamentally betrayed by the very agencies who have been paid
    to protect them, and we need to get trustworthy people at these
    agencies doing their job before we can even talk about
    restoring trust of the people of Flint.
        Mr. Clay. Thank you.
        Mr. Creagh, anything to add how we can help the people of
    Flint.
        Mr. Creagh. Both of the individuals to my left said it
    well. We have to accept responsibility. We have to change so it
    never happens again. We have to work with the community,
    because this is a crisis. It's a tragedy in Flint. And as you
    said, very eloquently, if it was your child or my grandchild,
    it's not acceptable.
        Mr. Clay. It's not acceptable.
        Mr. Beauvais.
        Mr. Beauvais. I agree that it's critical, but we, first of
    all, do everything that we can to help the citizens of Flint
    get the drinking water system back online and also to help
    ensure that resources get to the community to meet the
    recommendations of Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha and others with
    regard to the kids and the folks in that community.
        Going forward, we also need to work on the issues that we
    have discussed with regard to strengthening the rules and
    strengthening implementation of the rules. And we will be
    listening to all stakeholders as we work on that process.
        Mr. Clay. And I know my time is up, Madam Chair, but this
    should never happen again in this country. All of--this was all
    about the sake of austerity and saving a few dollars. And this
    is tragic.
        I yield back.
        Mrs. Lummis. [Presiding.] I thank the gentleman and
    recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Grothman, for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Grothman. Thank you.
        Mr. Beauvais, this is for you. Mr. Del Toral was--we have
    had previous hearings showing we have big problems with this
    agency. Apparently, a lot of time servers who, not only with
    the public but with, you know, their fellow employees, have
    displayed a tremendous lack of caring and compassion for
    people. Mr. Del Toral was ringing the alarm here over a year
    ago. He was sending out emails. Could you let us know how many
    other employees in the EPA you think Mr. Del Toral had alerted
    that the children of Flint were being poisoned?
        Mr. Beauvais. I don't have precise information on the
    number of employees that were privy to the information.
        Mr. Grothman. He was sending out emails, wasn't he, to
    people?
        Mr. Beauvais. My understanding is, yes. I don't want to
    give inaccurate information with regard to how broad that
    circle was.
        Mr. Grothman. Dozens, 30, 50?
        Mr. Beauvais. I don't know the answer to that.
        Mr. Grothman. Okay. Well, why don't we see if we can get
    that answer eventually? I'd like to know how many employees in
    the EPA knew that the children of Flint were being poisoned and
    didn't care.
        The next question for Ms. Walters. Like the other
    Congressmen, I would like to thank you for all you have done.
    Can I ask your educational background? Do you have any special
    training that allowed you to seem to expose this thing that
    none of the battalions at EPA could get around exposing?
        Ms. Walters. I have my degree as a medical assistant. And I
    just decided to start researching and educating myself about
    water, and I had to figure out what was going on after I was
    publicly humiliated by the State--by Mike Prysby at the MDEQ
    and Jerry Ambrose in a public meeting with the citizens.
        Mr. Grothman. Shows one more time, having a lot of heart is
    more important than having a lot of worthless college degrees.
    So thank you very much for what you have done.
        Next question for, I guess I'll ask--well, maybe Mr.
    Edwards will know the answer to this. I want to find out
    exactly, physically, how many people in each of the three
    relevant agencies--and we have got the city of Flint; we have
    the State of Michigan; the EPA--physically when these results--
    or presumably they test the water in Flint regularly. Right?
        Mr. Edwards. Right.
        Mr. Grothman. And how often do they test it? Once a week,
    once a month?
        Mr. Edwards. Once every 6 months.
        Mr. Grothman. Okay, and when was the first time that bad
    tests were available?
        Mr. Edwards. Well, very clearly in early 2015, in my
    opinion, they actually failed the lead and copper rule, but
    they took steps to cover up the high lead. One of the ironies
    of this is that as National Guard's people walked the streets
    of Flint and distributed bottled water, there has never been an
    admission that Flint failed the lead and copper rule. So if you
    look at what MDEQ did and the fact they didn't sample the high-
    risk homes and they invalidated samples, it just shows what a
    joke this regulation is.
        Mr. Grothman. Okay, and at that time, who would have known
    the problem? Would the city manager have known? Would Michigan
    Environmental Quality--I assume they knew. The EPA knew. Did
    they all know by that time?
        Mr. Edwards. There were certainly many employees at EPA and
    MDEQ who knew they were not following the Federal corrosion
    control law. That should be enough, one would think. You
    wouldn't think you would have to wait around for lead and water
    to spike and lead in children's blood to spike before anything
    is done.
        Mr. Grothman. Okay. So they should have been ringing the
    alarm over a year ago. They all knew, and they all just--it's
    not in my city, so what do I care, kind of.
        Mr. Edwards. You have to ask them. I don't know.
        Mr. Grothman. Okay. That's it.
        I will yield the rest of my time.
        Mrs. Lummis. The gentleman yields back.
        The chair recognizes the woman from New Mexico, Ms. Lujan
    Grisham.
        Ms. Lujan Grisham. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        And clear to me, in addition to the really disturbing
    nature of the issues that we are trying to identify what we
    could do to prevent them clearly in the future, I think there's
    plenty of blame to go around everywhere because the whole
    aspect here is to have as many eyes on these sorts of
    situations as possible. But I'm going to actually go back and
    focus on the States. I was the former secretary of health in
    New Mexico, and we actually had an arsenic problem in water in
    a northern county. And the second we know there are elevated
    levels, whether that's the environment department's core job or
    whether that is the local, the municipality government's job,
    we provide that information and that data and set up a public
    health protocol and then make sure all of our other partners
    are clearly doing their jobs, because at the end of the day,
    everybody in government's core job is the public health and
    safety of the citizens that you represent and are, frankly,
    sworn to protect.
        So I want to talk a little bit about the pediatrician who
    was seeing elevated levels of lead. Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha, who
    I think other folks have identified as the Flint pediatrician
    who really demonstrated, by virtue of the patient data that she
    had, that we are seeing pediatric youth being poisoned
    throughout the city. And trying to get data to identify the
    source, make sure that you can then correlate that data, so you
    have got a plan of action that then protects everybody else,
    that's exactly what you need to do. And my understanding is, is
    that this pediatrician went to the Department of Health and
    wanted their data about what was going on.
        And, in fact, I have here, Madam Chair, emails from the
    Department of Health that I want to provide and ask for consent
    to have them as part of the record. The email communications
    from the Governor's Office to the Department of Health docs and
    public health employees is not to share any data until they
    have a press conference, which looks to me by virtue of the
    information I have in front of me, that they are making
    political decisions before they make appropriate decisions for
    the public health of the community.
        How many more kids were drinking water during the time they
    prepped for a press conference? How many more pediatricians
    were without enough sufficient information? I want to just also
    tell you that the Governor's communication plan, this is what
    it states specifically: The data not be shared until the press
    conference starts at 1:30.
        Now, the coworkers responded that they will wait and that
    everyone was waiting for permission to provide, to give the
    data.
        So, Mr. Creagh, can you explain to me why the Governor's
    Office is instructing their independent medical personnel and
    public health personnel to refrain from giving data to a
    licensed pediatrician who was working to provide care to
    patients in her community related to a press conference,
    please?
        Mr. Creagh. I can't speak for the director of the
    Department of Health and Human Services. I can say that Dr.
    Mona Hanna-Attisha did some great work and zeroed in on some
    areas, and that that drove the decisionmaking and identified
    the problem. And we appreciate that.
        Ms. Lujan Grisham. Well, isn't it true that in all of the
    States' departments of health you have got a team of
    epidemiologists whose job it is when anyone identifies any
    issues of this nature, that it is more like a SWAT team. They
    are in those communities. They are identifying a source. They
    are working together. We help fund those initiatives in all of
    the States. And yet we have a political communication that you
    are new; you can't really state. But isn't it true that that's
    typically the job of those departments of health to actually
    not just provide the data but then engage directly to address
    the problem? Why weren't they engaged? Why didn't the
    Governor's Office immediately demand that the epidemiology team
    in your public health or chief medical officer be on site? That
    would be against, as I understand it, that protocol for all
    States.
        Mr. Creagh. So Michigan has very similar protocols to the
    State that you were at, where there's epidemiologists and
    healthcare professionals that respond to those type of public
    health emergencies.
        Ms. Lujan Grisham. So how do you rebut that this was
    purposeful then in nature, given that those protocols that you
    are familiar with as someone new and I'm familiar with, without
    being a public health doc or an epidemiologist--that that's
    exactly why we have those resources in place so that, A, we
    hope to prevent these situations, but by God, when we know
    about them, we immediately engage to prevent any other harm or
    damage.
        Mrs. Lummis. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
        The emails will be admitted. Without objection, so ordered.
        Ms. Lujan Grisham. I yield back.
        Mrs. Lummis. The chair will now recognize herself for 5
    minutes.
        My questions are for Ms. Walters and Mr. Edwards.
        Mr. Edwards, your questions will come last and will be very
    open-ended.
        Ms. Walters, I want to talk to you about Mr. Del Toral. And
    when did you meet him first?
        Ms. Walters. The first time I met him in person was in
    April of 2015.
        Mrs. Lummis. And could you tell me what happened at that
    meeting?
        Ms. Walters. He had come into my home because he was being
    told that my plumbing was the problem, my internal plumbing. So
    he came to verify that all of my plumbing was plastic; and to
    check out the home, check out the area, take pictures; and
    spoke with us about what was going on.
        Mrs. Lummis. What happened to him and the information he
    derived from that discussion thereafter?
        Ms. Walters. It went on for him to come back out on another
    day to do sampling in May of 2015 at other people's homes, my
    neighbor's homes as well. And from there, became the report
    that came out in June.
        Mrs. Lummis. And after the report, was his view of the
    situation credited, and was action taken?
        Ms. Walters. Everything that was in that report was
    everything that I had told him that had been going on plus his
    findings with his own testing with him being an expert in his
    field. So when he called me and asked me if he could use my
    information for this report, I said, yes, and I asked for a
    copy. When I saw it in black and white, there's a difference
    living it and seeing it in black and white. That is why it was
    given to the ACLU and made public. Those people did have a
    right to know. From that point, he was then no longer allowed
    to have association with me or anybody else in Flint.
        Mrs. Lummis. Not allowed by who?
        Ms. Walters. By the EPA.
        Mrs. Lummis. What happened to him after he was not allowed
    to have association with you, or do you know?
        Ms. Walters. I don't know. You have to ask Mr. Del Toral. I
    just know that--what I have been told.
        Mrs. Lummis. Mr. Edwards, when, how, and--when and how did
    you gain access to that information?
        Mr. Edwards. I first knew about this when Mr. Del Toral
    told me that there was a problem in Flint. That turned out to
    be the understatement of the year. But he alerted me to Ms.
    Walters and her family's health issues, and asked me to sample
    with LeeAnne, and so I did. And I provided my data to his
    report as well because I thought it would be best if EPA
    handled this. He was obviously the foremost expert on the lead
    and copper rule in the United States, and one would assume when
    he writes a memo saying that Flint is breaking Federal law,
    that there's a public health threat, that there's hazardous
    waste levels of lead coming out of Ms. Walters' home and
    there's a lead-poisoned child, that something would be done
    about it. So I gave him my data, and when I saw the report, I
    assumed that the appropriate authorities would act to protect
    Flint's population.
        Mrs. Lummis. When they didn't act, what did you do?
        Mr. Edwards. I didn't know what happened for quite some
    time until MDEQ bragged to Ms. Walters and laughed at her, and
    she reported back to me that quote-unquote, ``Mr. Del Toral had
    been handled.'' And it was very clear that an agreement had
    been reached of some sort between EPA and MDEQ that would let
    MDEQ have their way with Flint's children.
        Mrs. Lummis. Have their way in what way?
        Mr. Edwards. That they were not going to install corrosion
    control. They had no intention to do it. There's many emails
    that show that they were waiting until this new pipeline came
    on next year, and they thought it was a waste of time to do
    anything to treat the water. When we got involved in August, as
    a matter of fact, an MDEQ email said: Shouldn't someone tell
    those folks from Virginia Tech, we are switching to the
    pipeline next year so they don't bother wasting their time on
    this issue?
        Mrs. Lummis. I found--I find this so astounding, but
    unfortunately, not unique. And this has been referred to as a
    racial issue. I can tell you in my own State, there was an
    administrative order on consent for 17 years in the refinery
    that I live right next to to put in a slurry wall to protect
    the water that our cattle were drinking. And for 17 years, that
    refinery didn't turn a shovel, and neither the State nor the
    EPA made them.
        This is not unique. This is a situation that occurs time
    and again. And I would implore agencies: Listen to people.
    Don't just listen to companies.
        My time has expired.
        And the gentlelady from Texas, Ms. Sheila Jackson Lee, is
    recognized for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me thank the chair and the ranking
    member for again upholding their authority and upholding, if
    you will, the authority of the United States Congress, Mr.
    Chaffetz and Mr. Cummings, for their bipartisan approach to
    this.
        One cannot help--I sit on the House Judiciary Committee--
    but be nothing but angry as a mother and as an American. And I
    want to say to this mother that is here: We have already called
    you a hero of which you would wish not to be, because you have
    a child that has been impacted. As I sit here today, the
    memories of a Jim Jones who gave a poisoned concoction to
    children causes me to say that there is a Jim Jones in Michigan
    who gave a poisoned concoction to children and their families.
    If any of us should demand accountability, we should.
        I want to ask Mr. Edwards before I pursue a questioning of
    Mr. Creagh: Mr. Edwards, you have given a recounting of just
    not putting phosphate in water. And I know that you are not a
    judge or a jury, and I know you are a man that believes in the
    Constitution, but if you had to reflect, would you say that
    there were criminal activities or results of this inaction?
        Mr. Edwards. If it's not criminal, I don't know what is.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I join you in that questioning, and I have
    asked the Department of Justice to investigate individuals that
    may be engaged criminally to hold them criminally responsible
    for the actions in Flint, Michigan.
        Let me raise a question--were you trying to finish your
    sentence, Mr. Edwards? Because I have your whole series here.
        Mr. Creagh, in your statement, you claim and I quote:
    ``Regardless of the testing schedule allowed by the EPA rule,
    in hindsight, when the lead levels began to rise, corrosion
    treatments should have been required from the MDEQ,'' end your
    quote. However, rather than taking full responsibility for this
    decision, you then criticized the EPA for failing to provide a
    legal interpretation of the lead and copper rule until November
    2015. You said: ``My observation is that the EPA did not
    display the sense of urgency that the situation demanded. This
    is underscored by conversations started in February 2015
    regarding implementation of the Federal lead and copper rule.
    Between February and the end of September 2015, there were
    multiple email exchanges and conference calls between the MDEQ
    and EPA. Yet when the parties were unable to come to a
    consensus on its implementation in July 2015, the EPA failed to
    provide the legal opinion by the MDEQ until November 25.''
        As I present this question, let me again thank the chairman
    and ranking member. Let me thank the former Mayor Lawrence for
    her leadership, and let me say to the newly elected mayor,
    Mayor Weaver, let me applaud you for you were not--this was not
    on your watch and not on your clock, but I'm committed as we
    all are to you that the fix will come on your watch.
        Mr. Creagh, are you telling this committee that the reason
    that the MDEQ failed to require corrosion control treatments in
    Flint water was because EPA did not give you a legal
    interpretation stating you had to do that? Where was your own
    moral and fiduciary responsibility?
        Mr. Creagh. I'm not stating that.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. What are you stating, sir?
        Mr. Creagh. I'm not stating that the only reason why there
    is not corrosion control was because of the lack of a legal
    opinion from EPA.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. All right, sir.
        Mr. Creagh. My testimony said that we should have at the
    latest, once the first round of 6 months testing came, we
    should have taken some action.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. So you are not taking the position that
    you could not act as an independent State as the 10th Amendment
    says: What is not left to the Federal Government can be left to
    the State. And the safety and security of your Michiganders, I
    would assume that you would be concerned about. Is that
    correct?
        Mr. Creagh. We are concerned about the Michiganders.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. And, in essence, there was a malfeasance,
    or let me just say that there was an inaction in not doing what
    was supposed to be done. Is that correct, sir?
        Mr. Creagh. In hindsight, I think we all share in the
    responsibility for the crisis in Flint water.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Well, let me say that those who were
    closest to it--but let me just say that it strains belief--is
    your testimony, again, that the aging lead service lines and
    all that needed to be done was at the feet of the Federal
    Government? So I just want to hear you again. It was not in
    totality at the feet of someone other than the authorities in
    Michigan, in this instance the State?
        Mr. Creagh. I believe we all share responsibility in this
    crisis.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Well, let me say this. You are now in the
    midst of the Federal Government. We are all saying we want to
    help. Let me ask this question, and let me thank MSNBC Rachel
    Maddow, who took her show to Flint, Michigan, and gave us all
    even an added inspiration of change. And let me thank pastors
    in my community, who are eager to be there and help, and the
    Red Cross. But the point is, is that we know there is a figure
    of $50 to $60 million dollars. We know that there needs to be a
    change in the pipes that lead to homes and the pipes in homes.
        Can you say because of the moral authority vested in you as
    the State government and the need to give a response, that you
    would engage and use or argue--or the Governor, who is not
    here--there should be an empty chair there--but he should spend
    the $50 to $60 million to completely overhaul the pipe system
    in the city of Flint? Would you agree to that?
        Mr. Creagh. The commitment from State government is that we
    are in it for the long haul for the citizens of Flint, and we
    will work with our partners both at the city, State, and
    Federal Government to make sure we get it right because no one
    deserves this.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. You are an expert, sir. You are an expert.
    Can you just say that you would be willing to----
        Chairman Chaffetz. [Presiding.] The gentlewoman's time has
    more than expired. Thank you.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank you. Could he answer the question,
    Mr. Chairman?
        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you. No, we are going to move on--
    --
        Ms. Jackson Lee. All right, thank you very much.
        Chairman Chaffetz. No, we are going to move on to Morgan
    Griffith, Representative from Virginia.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you for your courtesy.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you--is now recognized for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Griffith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
    allowing me to participate in this hearing. Ms. Walters thank
    so much for being the first person to make this public and for
    reaching out for help.
        Dr. Edwards, everybody in southwest Virginia and at
    Virginia Tech and all over the region are so very proud to call
    you one of ours. Thank you for the work that you have done. I
    was talking with President Sands of Virginia Tech just a few
    minutes before the hearing started out in the hallway. I did
    not know Ms. Walters at the time. And I was going over your
    resume just saying, you know, this guy, his resume is a wow.
    And she walked up and she said: And he is a wow of a person
    too. What a great endorsement from a mom who reached out to
    protect her kids to a white knight who is willing to be there
    to be able to come in and charge. And I can't tell you how
    proud I am to represent southwest Virginia, particularly, to
    have people in my district of your caliber.
        We may not always agree. I don't have any idea, but I
    recognize somebody who will not be handled, and in the
    mountains of southwest Virginia, those people always get
    respect. And I appreciate that.
        That being said, I do have a few questions that I would
    like to ask. One being up to this point in time, if somebody
    made a complain to me, while I had other battles with the EPA
    that dealt with air or water, I would say: The EPA hasn't said
    there's a problem.
        Am I to take from the testimony here today in your opinion
    that maybe I need to go beyond relying on the EPA when it comes
    to whether or not the water supply in my district has been
    affected?
        Mr. Edwards. I wish I could say otherwise, but events have
    proven--proven you correct.
        Mr. Griffith. I hope that should you know of any issues
    that I need to be looking at in the district, that you will let
    me know about that.
        Likewise, I kind of got the impression that citizens, other
    moms across the country, probably ought to be calling their
    local water supply companies and their local municipalities, et
    cetera, and just asking, are you doing the proper testing? Am I
    correct in that, Dr. Edwards?
        Mr. Edwards. I'm ashamed to say that, yes, you are correct.
        Mr. Griffith. Well, and I appreciate that. I saw your
    written testimony in advance and thought you had some good
    comments about the fact, and this is something we need to do.
    And that is that the rise of institutional scientific
    misconduct is a relatively new phenomenon. Clearly, we do not
    have adequate checks and balances on the power of these
    agencies--and you are referring to the EPA and the CDC when you
    said that--nor do we hold them accountable for their unethical
    actions. And I assume you stand by that. Nothing in this
    hearing today has changed your opinion in that regard?
        Mr. Edwards. No, nothing has changed.
        Mr. Griffith. And I will tell you that I was having a
    conversation. I'm a recovering attorney--I like to joke with my
    friends. I was having a conversation with an attorney friend of
    mine a few days ago--I guess it was last week--who also has
    been involved with the brain injury services of southwest
    Virginia and has previously chaired the Virginia Office for
    Protection and Advocacy, which is an independent State agency
    that tries to take care of folks with disabilities, to protect
    the rights of those with disabilities. He and I were talking
    about this. He indicated to me that he, like you today, have
    expressed that he felt there must be something criminal, that
    it wasn't just a matter of saying you're sorry and fixing it,
    that there were probably people who needed to go to jail, and
    so I couldn't help but think, as listening to the testimony and
    the questions earlier, and Mr. Amash said that he thought it
    was a bad thing or indicated it was bad when the attorney for
    Mr. Earley said it was nonsensical for him to come and testify.
    I suspect that maybe what the attorney meant to say is: You
    have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will
    be used against you in a court of law.
        Would you disagree with my assessment of that response by
    his attorney?
        Mr. Edwards. I'm not a lawyer, so I'll stay away from that
    one.
        Mr. Griffith. I appreciate that. I know it has been a long
    day for all of you. I do appreciate the testimony.
        Again, Ms. Walters, appreciate you stepping up.
        Dr. Edwards, thank you for taking your own time, your own
    energy, the resources from your discretionary funds that you
    have spent on this cause. You were not handled by anybody,
    including the Federal Government. And, again, I do respect that
    and appreciate it.
        And, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
        I will recognize Mr. Cummings, the ranking member, and then
    myself, and then we will conclude this hearing.
        Mr. Cummings. I want to thank all of you for being here
    today.
        And, Mr. Chairman, I thank you again for holding this
    hearing. It's a very important hearing. And I have listened to
    almost every syllable that has been said here today.
        Mr. Edwards, I know that, just based upon what my staff has
    revealed to me, that you--and what I have heard here today,
    that the EPA has obviously not been fair to you. But is that a
    fair statement?
        Come on, I can't hear you.
        Mr. Edwards. I believe that's a correct statement, yes.
        Mr. Cummings. And I'm sure you have a lot of deep hurt,
    disappointment because, obviously, you're trying to do the
    right thing, and you are driven by a passion to make people's
    lives better. Is that an accurate statement?
        Mr. Edwards. Yeah, whatever hurt I have experienced is
    nothing compared to the hurt of the parents of the children in
    this room.
        Mr. Cummings. And that's why I want to get to this
    question. And I have listened to everybody very carefully. But,
    you know, I keep hearing--I hear you, and I guess as a trial
    lawyer, I'm kind of used to kind of really, really listening
    carefully. It seems like you spent a lot of time on the EPA.
    And I want you to be clear. And I will say it 50 million times,
    and I mean it. I want the EPA to be held responsible for
    addressing the things that they are supposed to address. But it
    seems--and help me with this, okay, because I'm just listening
    to you. You don't seem to put too much blame on the State. I
    mean, why is that? Or am I missing something?
        See, and the reason why I gave that whole long statement
    that I just gave is because I know sometimes we can be so upset
    because we have been abused and treated badly, but I want to
    make sure that we are also looking at the whole picture. You
    follow what I'm saying?
        Mr. Edwards. Yes. My perspective on this is the fact that
    these are the agencies paid to protect us. The Michigan
    Department of Environmental Quality and Susan Hedman at EPA as
    the top environmental cop in the region. I have said repeatedly
    that the primary blame for this rests with a few people at the
    Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, without question.
        But in terms of other people in the State, those core
    professionals misled them throughout this whole thing. Mr.
    Walling, in Flint, for example, reached out after reading
    Miguel's memo, as a considerate mayor would, to Susan Hedman
    and said: Is this something I should take seriously?
        And she told him, the cop, the top environmental policeman
    in the region told him: I am sorry this memo ever took place,
    and I will get back to you after I edit and vet it.
        So I--100 percent of the responsibility lies with these
    employees at MDEQ; there's no question. But EPA had the chance
    because of Miguel Del Toral to be the hero here, and Ms. Hedman
    snatched defeat for EPA from the jaws of victory by
    discrediting his memo and standing by silently as she knew that
    Federal law was not protecting Flint's children.
        Mr. Cummings. And as I close, let me tell you the value of
    what has happened here today. What you all have done is given
    us a platform to look further. I mean, you have given us the
    basic information. You follow what I'm saying? Now we have to
    go--you have given names and you have talked about different
    situations, and now we have to go higher.
        And to you, Mr. Creagh, I want to thank you. I know you
    have got a tough job. And I know you haven't--how long have you
    been in that job?
        Mr. Creagh. Since January 4, and it was by choice.
        Mr. Cummings. Wow. But, again, I hope that--I know you are
    in the cabinet, so that means you have the Governor's ear. I
    hope that the Governor will understand that these are people
    who are suffering and that the $30 million that he has asked
    for, I guess yesterday, and then there is, I guess, the $28
    million that was already signed--is that right, or is that all
    part of the same thing?
        Mr. Creagh. No, sir. We have actually, there is almost $38
    million that has been allocated already to this, and then this
    would be on top of that. And then I would certainly not preempt
    the Governor's budget, but understand that there's more to be
    done.
        Mr. Cummings. Yeah, I understand. I'm not trying to get you
    to do that. But I would ask you to send a message to him in
    case he is not looking--I'm sure he is--but the thing that I
    asked you about the water bills, you know, that is insult to
    injury. You know, if I'm being poisoned----
        Mr. Creagh. Right.
        Mr. Cummings. --and I can't wash with the water. I can't
    drink the water, and then you are going to make me pay for the
    water? I mean, that doesn't make any sense. So I just want to
    throw that in. But again----
        Mr. Creagh. I will take that back.
        Mr. Cummings. --thank you all.
        And, Mr. Chairman, I am looking forward to our continued
    efforts. It is not about a gotcha. I swear to God, it's not.
    It's about what happened. You got to know what happened so that
    you can correct it, and hopefully so it doesn't happen again.
        Ms. Walters, thank you very much. Your children are in our
    prayers. You said something that--you said something about you
    did a reading and it was higher than, I guess, particles per
    billion--it was higher than hazardous waste. Is that what you
    said?
        Ms. Walters. Yes, the levels of lead in my water were
    higher than hazardous waste levels.
        Mr. Cummings. That's purely unacceptable.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentlemen.
        Just to follow up on what Mr. Cummings was talking about,
    Mr. Edwards, these people at the Michigan Department of
    Environmental Quality, do you feel that they were misleading
    people? Were they providing false information? What were they
    doing, and who were they doing it to?
        Mr. Edwards. I think it probably started innocently. I
    think someone forgot to follow the law. But they ignored
    warning sign after warning sign. The GM fiasco, Ms. Walters'
    child, the hazardous waste levels of lead, and gradually, step
    by step, they just felt like they, you know, they were covering
    this up. There's no question about it. You read the emails,
    they were--they lied in writing to the EPA. And it was only
    after LeeAnne figured out that they were not using corrosion
    control that they started this new story that we don't know if
    we have to have corrosion control. So I think the written
    record is quite clear on this.
        Chairman Chaffetz. Well, they were telling that to the EPA.
    What about to the Governor's Office and other State officials?
        Mr. Edwards. It's very clear to me that they misled the
    epidemiologists who were looking at that. The very first thing
    they did was to reach out to the MDEQ employees and say: Is
    there something wrong with the water? And the talking points,
    the notes from that memo used by the epidemiologists, basically
    repeated one lie after another after another about the actual
    situation in Flint. And when you're a scientist and you have
    been misled so fundamentally by someone in a position of trust,
    that skews your interpretation.
        So I have criticized what the health department did and the
    fact that they never told the Governor about this spike in
    elevated lead that was occurring. And I have talked about their
    unethical behavior in the month of September when they refused
    to share data with me and Dr. Mona about the lead-poisoned
    children. But you have to--when you look at the ethics of this,
    you have to look at what they were told and put yourself in
    their position. And I fault them, but the blame lies with these
    three or four employee who were actively misleading everyone.
        And I go back to Mr. Walling, who took a lot of criticism
    and some of it very justifiable. But if you're a mayor of a
    town in Flint and you reach out to Susan Hedman, the top cop in
    the region and she tells you nothing is wrong and a few days
    later you go on television drinking the water to tell everyone
    it's safe, who is to blame for that? Certainly Mayor Walling
    has taken his share of the blame for being overly trusting of
    the top EPA cop in the region, apologizing for this memo, and
    not telling you that there is anything wrong going on in Flint.
    But the bulk of the blame for that particular episode has to
    lie with Susan Hedman.
        Chairman Chaffetz. And to my colleagues, you know, thinking
    about it, there's more than 2 million Federal employees. The
    overwhelming majority, they are good quality, hardworking
    patriotic people. I say that time and time again.
        Mr. Edwards. Absolutely.
        Chairman Chaffetz. But what we haven't done as a Congress
    with oversight of the administration--and, again, you can find
    examples on Democratic and Republican administrations. Okay,
    but we when we have these types of bad apples in place, they
    tend to rise to the surface. So much so that we had a hearing
    about this in July saying this is a problem. And nothing, but
    nothing was done about it. And it festered in other areas that
    rose to our level that it became so serious that we had a
    hearing. But it was, obviously, when you have that kind of
    approach, you see this happen time and time again.
        And so this has been a very, very valuable hearing. Ms.
    Walters, God bless you. I'm so sorry that you've had to go
    through this. I can't even begin to tell you how much we hope
    and pray for your family and for the thousands of other
    families that you represent. So you have had some sort of
    strength that you got somewhere. I believe in--it's not just a
    coincidence that you get that kind of strength that's
    representative and making the people of Michigan proud. So keep
    it up.
        Mr. Edwards, thank you for your good work. You have been
    tenacious on this. Thankful for Virginia Tech for funding you
    and allowing you to do this good work and being the kind of
    expert across the country and very helpful to this committee.
    We are very appreciative of that.
        Mr. Creagh, you didn't need this in your life. You have had
    a very strong career. You've served the State of Michigan
    honorably. I have heard praise on both sides of the aisle for
    what you're doing. You are in a very difficult spot. You are in
    a very difficult spot. And for your stepping up and doing this,
    somebody has got to do it. And somehow that mantle has fallen
    to you. We thank you for your participation and work that you
    do here.
        Mr. Beauvais, you seem like a very fine gentleman who cares
    deeply about not only the government, but you care about the
    country. You care about these people as well. My frustration is
    with the organization, the lack of accountability, the lack of
    followthrough. Somehow we have got to plow past the talking
    points and everything they try to train you to say when you
    come before Congress and just get to the truth and the naked
    reality of it. That's what I think most of the employees at the
    EPA want. It's what the Congress wants. We represent the
    people. You know, we represent the people of the United States.
    And so we--I'm glad you are in this position. I think you are
    part of the solution, not part of the problem. That's my
    experience. That's my starting point. I think all four of you
    are part of the solution, not part of the problem. But we have
    a problem, and we have got to clean it up.
        And I also want to--I appreciate and thank Mr. Kildee for
    his passion on this. He has been working on this for some time.
    And I'm glad that he was able to testify today.
        This committee stands adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:52 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]

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