    [House Hearing, 114 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                      GETTING INCENTIVES RIGHT: CONNECTING
                        LOW-INCOME INDIVIDUALS WITH JOBS

    =======================================================================

                                     HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                        SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

                                     of the

                          COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS
                         U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                 MARCH 1, 2016

                                   __________

                                Serial 114-HR09

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on Ways and Means

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
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                          COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS

                          KEVIN BRADY, Texas, Chairman

    SAM JOHNSON, Texas                   SANDER M. LEVIN, Michigan
    DEVIN NUNES, California              CHARLES B. RANGEL, New York
    PATRICK J. TIBERI, Ohio              JIM MCDERMOTT, Washington
    DAVID G. REICHERT, Washington        JOHN LEWIS, Georgia
    CHARLES W. BOUSTANY, JR., Louisiana  RICHARD E. NEAL, Massachusetts
    PETER J. ROSKAM, Illinois            XAVIER BECERRA, California
    TOM PRICE, Georgia                   LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
    VERN BUCHANAN, Florida               MIKE THOMPSON, California
    ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska               JOHN B. LARSON, Connecticut
    LYNN JENKINS, Kansas                 EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon
    ERIK PAULSEN, Minnesota              RON KIND, Wisconsin
    KENNY MARCHANT, Texas                BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey
    DIANE BLACK, Tennessee               JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York
    TOM REED, New York                   DANNY DAVIS, Illinois
    TODD YOUNG, Indiana                  LINDA SANCHEZ, California
    MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania
    JIM RENACCI, Ohio
    PAT MEEHAN, Pennsylvania
    KRISTI NOEM, South Dakota
    GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina
    JASON SMITH, Missouri
    ROBERT J. DOLD, Illinois
    TOM RICE, South Carolina

                         David Stewart, Staff Director

             Janice Mays, Minority Chief Counsel and Staff Director

                                     ______

                        SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

                        VERN BUCHANAN, Florida, Chairman

    KRISTI NOEM, South Dakota            LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
    JASON SMITH, Missouri                JOHN LEWIS, Georgia
    ROBERT J. DOLD, Illinois             JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York
    TOM RICE, South Carolina             DANNY DAVIS, Illinois
    TOM REED, New York
    DAVID G. REICHART, Washington

                                C O N T E N T S

                                   __________
                                                                       Page

    Advisory of March 3, 2016 announcing the hearing.................     2

                                   WITNESSES

    Kenyatta Brame, Executive Vice President, Cascade Engineering....    14
    Barbara Doucet, Corporate Director of Human Resources, Omni
      Hotels & Resorts...............................................    36
    Christopher King, Senior Research Scientist and Lecturer, Ray
      Marshall Center for the Study of Human Resources, University of
      Texas at Austin................................................    20
    Laurie Bouillion Larrea, President, Workforce Solutions Greater
      Dallas.........................................................    44
    Mark Wilson, President and CEO, Florida Chamber of Commerce......     6

                         SUPPLEMENTARY WITNESS MATERIAL

    Kenyatta Brame, report...........................................    67
    Christopher King, testimony......................................    96

                           SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD

    Affordable Housing Tax Credit Coalition, statement...............   104
    APHSA, letter....................................................   107
    Center for Law and Social Policy, statement......................   112
    Azim Saju, statement.............................................   122
    Philadelphia Works, Inc., letter.................................   125

                      GETTING INCENTIVES RIGHT: CONNECTING
                        LOW-INCOME INDIVIDUALS WITH JOBS

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, MARCH 1, 2016

                 U.S. House of Representatives,
                           Committee on Ways and Means,
                               Subcommittee on Human Resources,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m., in
    Room 1334, Longworth House Office Building, the Honorable Vern
    Buchanan, [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
        [The advisory announcing the hearing follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                                    ___________

        Chairman BUCHANAN. The Subcommittee will come to order.
    Welcome to the Ways and Means Subcommittee on Human Resources
    hearing, on Getting Incentives Right: Connecting Low-Income
    Individuals with Jobs. Good morning. Welcome. First, let me say
    what an honor it is for me to be presiding over my first
    hearing as Chairman of the Ways and Means Human Resources
    Subcommittee. I'm looking forward to learning from and working
    alongside my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, addressing
    one of our nation's most pressing issues, that of helping
    people out of poverty into realizing the American Dream. I'm
    hopeful that we can work together in finding concrete solutions
    and offering real opportunities for people in need.
        Over the past year, this Subcommittee has heard from a wide
    array of voices on helping low-income individuals move up the
    economic ladder. However, a perspective not often considered
    when most of us discuss these issues is that of the employer.
    As a business owner myself, I know there is an important role
    we play in providing real work opportunities for job seekers to
    compete and succeed in the workplace. I've seen it first-hand
    how a job can change a person's outlook in life and shape a
    brighter future.
        With looming workforce shortages in the decades ahead,
    businesses are going to need all who can work to work. Yet we
    know all the working age adults who are in poverty, almost two
    in three that are in poverty, two in three are not working. The
    challenge is, how do we tap into this incredible work force and
    bridge the divide? I propose the answer lies in partnering with
    businesses and promoting work in our welfare programs.
        For welfare recipients engaging in work, increased economic
    mobility can lead to a more financially stable life. And for
    employers, finding and retaining a strong work force is
    necessary for long-term goals and success. By getting the
    incentives right to address the needs of both groups, that of
    the job-seeker and that of the job-creator, we can grow our
    economy, help people find and grow their careers, and move more
    American families out of poverty and up in the economic ladder.
        Today's hearing will highlight examples of how the public
    and private sector are partnering to encourage positive
    outcomes, when we move someone from welfare to work. And let me
    just say, as it relates to Florida, we have in Florida, we're
    growing at two to four--the country's growing at two percent,
    we're growing at four. We got a thousand people coming every
    day to Florida. And I can, I've gone through that before, being
    in business for 30, 40 years, where we're not, we don't have
    any workers. So this is a great opportunity to talk about this
    subject. Because it's critical to Florida and a lot of states.
    I'm sure Texas as well. I now yield to the distinguished Mr.
    Crowley, sitting for Ranking Member Mr. Doggett, for the
    purposes of an opening statement.
        Mr. CROWLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Congratulations on
    your first Subcommittee hearing.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Congratulations for you to be in here,
    up here too.
        Mr. CROWLEY. Thank you. Let's not go into that right now.
    But a thousand people a day coming to Florida, 998 I think are
    coming from New York. So, you're welcome. We all agree that a
    good-paying job is the best way out of poverty. But the problem
    with the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program right
    now isn't a problem with the incentives being right for
    individuals or employers. After all, low-income parents want to
    work and want a better life for themselves and for their
    families.
        Employers want to hire workers who can do the job and who
    can do it well. The problem is that the incentives are wrong
    for state governments. States are currently spending only eight
    percent of TANF funds, funds designated to move people from
    welfare to work, on work activities, even when you include all
    the activities related to TANF's core purposes, including the
    child care assistance low-income parents need in order to be
    reliable employees. States are still diverting more than half
    of their TANF funds to other purposes. It's especially
    frustrating that states aren't investing in work. Because today
    we know a lot more about the best ways to connect low-income
    parents with good, sustainable jobs that we, that, more than we
    did in 1996.
        Early welfare studies might have suggested that work first,
    pushing people into first available jobs, no matter how
    unstable or low-paying, was just as effective as education and
    training, even though that contradicts everything we know about
    valuable education, and how valuable education is in our modern
    economy. But further research has shown that the right
    education or a skill upgrade is just as valuable for welfare
    recipients as it is for everyone else. In fact, a new study of
    Colorado welfare recipients found that career oriented
    community college credentials, ranging from certification to
    associates' degrees, led to large and significant earnings
    gains.
        Unfortunately, the 12 month limit on education and training
    in the current TANF law strongly discourages this strategy,
    since these credentials often take longer than 12 months to
    earn. Community college is just one of many ways to help
    welfare recipients become the kind of employees that employers
    want to hire, to retain, and to promote. I'm looking forward to
    hearing from Dr. Christopher King about his research on two of
    the most promising strategies, lifting welfare recipients out
    of poverty, career pathways programs and two generation poverty
    reduction, which simultaneously helps parents and their
    children. Unfortunately states have not had an incentive to
    invest in these promising strategies, because we are not
    holding them accountable for their diversion of funds or for
    poor employment outcomes for welfare recipients.
        We should also not forget that TANF recipients are parents.
    And even the most motivated parents can't be reliable employees
    if they don't have access to quality child care. The
    Congressional Research Service estimates that only 17 percent
    of eligible families receive help from the Child Care Block
    Grant. And state TANF investment in child care has dropped off
    sharply since the 1990s. I have introduced legislation to
    guarantee access to quality child care for children under age
    four. Something that would simultaneously improve outcomes for
    children, as well as their working parents. I look forward to
    working with Chairman Buchanan to refocus TANF on work and hold
    states accountable for getting results. A lot of parents who
    want to make a better life for their families are counting on
    just that. And they're counting on us. So with that, Mr.
    Chairman, I yield back to you.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Without objection, other members'
    opening statements will be made a part of the record. Today's
    witness panel includes five experts: Mr. Mark Wilson, President
    and CEO of the Florida Chamber of Commerce, represents over a
    100,000 businesses, a part of a federation in Florida. Mr.
    Blame is based in Grand Rapids, Michigan, with--he's Executive
    Vice President of Cascade Engineering. It's a global
    manufacturing company that started a welfare to career program
    almost two decades ago, as the way to tap into an underutilized
    population to fill a looming workforce shortage within the
    company. And has done that with hundreds of employees.
        So I'm really looking forward to your, your comments. Mr.
    King, a Senior Research Scientist and Lecturer of the
    University of Texas at Austin. He leads a team, designing and
    analyzing job strategies for low-skill, low-income parents. Ms.
    Barbara Doucet is Corporate Director of Human Resources, Omni
    Hotels and Resorts. Oversees hiring and training for the hotel
    in multiple states. She has forged critical relationships with
    local governments and schools, creating internships and
    training programs. Ms. Larrea is President of Workforce
    Solutions, in the Great Dallas Area. Oversees public funded
    employment and training programs, viewing employers as
    customers of these systems, in an effort to help low-income
    individuals in the Dallas region, help them to keep and obtain
    good jobs. Let us begin with Mr. Wilson, with--you may proceed
    with your testimony.

    STATEMENT OF MARK WILSON, PRESIDENT AND CEO, FLORIDA CHAMBER OF
                                COMMERCE

        Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you,
    distinguished members of this Committee. I thank you for the
    opportunity to appear before you today. My name is Mark Wilson,
    and as the Chairman said, I am the President and Chief
    Executive Officer of the Florida Chamber of Commerce. The
    Florida Chamber of Commerce is Florida's largest federation of
    employers, local chambers of commerce, trade associations. And
    we're focused entirely on securing Florida's future by
    advancing economic opportunity for all.
        In Florida, we create one out of every 11 new U.S. jobs.
    And as the Chairman said, we're adding a thousand new people a
    day. But I would be quick to add that the number one concern
    that I hear about from employers throughout our great state is
    the inability to find talent. And so what we have here before
    us today is a perfect match. We have employers that need to
    create jobs and we have people who need the skills and talent
    to fill those jobs. I'm very optimistic from what I've heard so
    far today.
        I know our nation has many challenges, but this Committee
    taking time to focus attention on issues such as generational
    poverty and on reforming our welfare program, is a major step
    in the right direction. And it is my honor to be part of this
    discussion today. In my view, the battle of this generation is
    between economic equality and economic opportunity. Between
    those who believe that everyone is entitled to equal outcomes
    and those who believe everyone should have an equal opportunity
    at earned success, unfortunately we will always have poverty.
    The kind that results from temporary setbacks, such as job
    loss, foreclosures, or unexpected challenges. And the Florida
    Chamber believes safety nets are in fact necessary to help
    return families to a productive, work-based solution. We can
    break the cycle, and create greater economic opportunities for
    the next generation.
        Much has been said about the one percent in this country.
    The one percent at the top. And I want to put on the record
    today, I think the one percent can largely take care of
    themselves. But what about the 20 percent at the bottom? I want
    to applaud you for focusing our attention on what can we do as
    a nation, as an employer community, to help those in the bottom
    20 percent. That's where our focus should be.
        To me and many of Florida's business leaders, breaking the
    cycle of generational poverty is not only a moral imperative,
    it's also a smart business decision. Almost half of all
    children born in generational poverty remain in poor economic
    conditions until adulthood. And in Florida, unfortunately, one
    in four Florida children are living in poverty today. Right
    now, approximately 3.7 million Floridians are on food stamps,
    and nearly 60 percent of Florida's 2.8 million students are
    eligible for free and reduced price lunch. More than 3.3
    million Floridians don't know where their next meal will come
    from.
        While Florida is home to more than 1.1 million Floridians
    with unique abilities, between the typical working ages of 16
    to 65, the Florida Chamber Foundation report that we recently
    did shows that a disproportionately high number of those are
    unemployed. Over 712,000 Floridians with unique abilities may
    actually be looking for work. So I ask you to please consider
    them as we forge solutions of welfare to work. To remain at a
    level of five percent unemployment in Florida, businesses need
    to create 800,000 new jobs by 2020 and two million new jobs by
    2030. And I say that to say that in that same year, one third
    of our current work force in Florida will likely be retired.
    This is why it's essential to help every Floridian who wants to
    find work find a job.
        Creating greater economic opportunity for everyone starts
    with a high quality education. And at the Florida Chamber, we
    believe that a quality education and workforce development
    system are the pathways to prosperity that will enable
    Floridians to compete in a global economy. The Florida Chamber
    Foundation's recent report, ``From Excuses to Excellence,''
    shows that Florida student achievement has gone from being
    ranked 48th in America in graduation rates, to seventh in
    educational achievement.
        Schools thought to be stuck at the bottom because of
    poverty and other challenges have proved that all students can
    truly learn at higher rates. Through higher standards and the
    miracle of Florida's tax credit scholarship program, Florida's
    fourth graders are some of the best readers in the world. And
    Florida's African American students ranked number one in the
    nation in student achievement gains. Talent is replacing the
    tax incentive as the most important factor in economic
    development decisions. And this is a huge opportunity for those
    trying to work their way out of poverty.
        Some people say we have an unemployment problem. The truth
    is, we have a talent gap problem. And in Florida right now, we
    have 287,000 open jobs. There's a match that we can make here
    between those stuck in generational poverty and those employers
    who have those jobs. In closing, we must focus on smarter
    public policy that puts students first. We must put the next
    generation first. The Florida Chamber believes in the
    importance of this issue, both economically as well as morally.
    And I pledge to this Committee to be a leader with you, both in
    Florida and nationally, to invest real resources behind putting
    a long-term solution, to finally breaking the cycle of
    generational poverty, so that every Floridian and every
    American has the opportunity of achieving the American Dream.
    Again, thank you for focusing on one of America's best
    opportunities.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Wilson follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                                    ___________

        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you, Mr. Wilson.
        Mr. Brame, you can proceed with your testimony.

    STATEMENT OF KENYATTA BRAME, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, CASCADE
                              ENGINEERING

        Mr. BRAME. Good morning, and happy Super Tuesday. I'd like
    to thank Chairman Vern Buchanan and the entire Subcommittee on
    Human Resources for giving me this opportunity to testify
    today. Once again, my name is Kenyatta Brame. I am the
    Executive Vice President for Cascade Engineering, a
    manufacturing company headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
    Founded in 1973, Cascade Engineering consists of nine
    businesses, with a core competency in manufacturing large-scale
    plastic injection molded parts. We are in many different fields
    and industries, including waste and recycling, valet, trash,
    agricultural and industrial material handling, automotive,
    truck and bus, office heating, polymer techs, and asset
    management.
        Cascade Engineering is a B Certified Corporation, and a
    Triple Bottom Line Company. This means we measure our
    performance in three specific areas: people, planet and profit.
    We believe that business is one of the most powerful forces on
    the planet and that we have a clear responsibility to make
    profits for our shareholders. And we have equal opportunity and
    responsibility for, to our employees, our community and our
    environment.
        At Cascade Engineering, we believe in breaking down
    barriers. These barriers including criminal background, racism,
    physical disabilities, and poverty, among many others. Today
    I've been asked to testify about our welfare to career program.
    We are very proud of this initiative, a program that partners
    businesses and state agencies to help identify, train, and
    provide support to individuals in poverty.
        We believe that given an opportunity, combined with proper
    training and the support of culture, individuals can transition
    from reliance on welfare to self-sustaining, long-term careers,
    at Cascade Engineering. This journey began in the mid-90s, when
    Fred Keller asked Ron Jimmerson, one of our Human Resource
    managers, ``What can we do to hire people on welfare?'' Ron was
    the right person to ask, because he had grown up in
    generational poverty and had an acute awareness and
    understanding of the difficulties welfare recipients faced.
        In the beginning, we had many setbacks, but we continued to
    learn from our mistakes. We continued to learn. Some of our
    welfare recipients had never worked in a manufacturing
    environment. Many of our supervisors had little experience or
    tolerance for working with individuals who had difficulty
    getting to work because of transportation, housing or child
    care issues. During this stage, we learned that employees on
    welfare could exceed if provided with clear expectations,
    needed resources, proper training, and appropriate work
    environment. At the same time, our leaders were being trained
    to better understand the needs of someone coming out of
    generational poverty. Although we were making great strides
    forward, we also learned that we needed a partner.
        In 1999, Joyce Gutierrez Marsh, from the Michigan
    Department of Human Services, or DHS, was assigned as a social
    worker to handle all of Cascade Engineering's welfare to career
    clients. Joyce relocated her office to Cascade Engineering,
    becoming the first social worker in the state of Michigan to be
    stationed at a business site. Joyce worked with Ron Jimmerson
    to develop an orientation process and a readiness assessment
    process for welfare recipients, to identify and avoid pitfalls
    before they started to work.
        To further assist the process, we developed several
    policies, including a rule that all HR representatives contact
    Joyce with important concerns related to our welfare to career
    employees. Problems related to attendance, tardiness or
    performance were identified and quickly handled when Joyce was
    involved. This collaboration was an immediate success and
    greatly reduced the high turnover we were previously seeing
    with our welfare to career clients.
        When Amy Valderas, when she registered for welfare, she was
    out of work, a single mother with three small children, living
    with her sister. She had no idea how was she going to make ends
    meet. She was hired by Cascade Engineering, enrolled in our
    welfare to career program, and now 16 years later, Amy is still
    with us, completely off welfare. She overcame the benefit
    cliff, as one of our star employees who is admired by her
    peers. She owns her own home, and two of her three children
    have already graduated from college. And this is just one of
    our many stories.
        In 2002, Cascade Engineering joined a new coalition of
    businesses working in concert with DHS, to expand the welfare
    to career model to other companies. This coalition is called
    The Source, and is comprised of 15 member companies. Last year,
    we serviced over 400 welfare to career clients. And the group
    has a 97 percent monthly retention rate. This is more than
    double the retention rate of all other DHS clients in the
    county.
        Currently Cascade Engineering has 84 employees involved in
    the welfare to career program. 37 of these individuals are
    still receiving some level of assistance, with 47 of these
    individuals no longer receiving any subsidy whatsoever. Over
    the last 17 years, we have positively impacted hundreds of
    people and their families. More importantly, our employees who
    have completed our welfare to career program are successful
    members of society who can take care of their families and
    provide them a better quality of life.
        In many cases, they are the first individuals in their
    families to break out of generational poverty. We are honored
    to be part of this special project, and look forward to
    continuing this work in breaking the cycle of generational
    poverty. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Brame follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                                    ___________

        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you, Mr. Brame.
        Mr. King, you may proceed, please.

        STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER T. KING, Ph.D, SENIOR RESEARCH
     SCIENTIST AND LECTURER, RAY MARSHALL CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF
             HUMAN RESOURCES, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN

        Mr. KING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the
    Subcommittee. It's an opportunity to be here, and share my
    thoughts. Five minutes is going to be tough. I'm an academic,
    but I'm going to do my best. So I guess the main message I have
    is that we now know a whole lot more about how TANF works.
    Welfare policies. We know a lot more about what effective
    workforce strategies look like. We know a lot more about how
    labor markets operate today than we did almost 20 years ago,
    when TANF came into being. And I think with that new knowledge,
    I think we can shape better policies and strategies for dealing
    with this environment, to help poor families succeed.
        That said, I think simply connecting the title of this
    hearing, welfare parents, with employers, is insufficient to
    make things work well for them. It probably never was. I think
    what we need are strategies that basically support parents to
    get the kind of education, training and credentials that
    employers are looking for. And we can do that by working
    together with employers and other public programs, like the
    Workforce Investment Act and Workforce Innovation and
    Opportunity Act programs.
        And we have some slides, which I'm sure--there we go. So
    first slide. I think the one--next slide.
        [Slide]
        One thing we do know is that if given the opportunity and
    given the supports--this is a slide from the Center for Budget
    and Policy Priorities--that poor moms will step up. Their
    behavior in the labor market looks no different than other
    women in the labor market these days. And that's encouraging.
    Right now, I think TANF does too little to help these families.
    And if we could tweak our policies a bit, even modestly, I
    think it could do much more, again, in tandem with connecting
    to employers and other public programs. And I'll get into some
    of that in just a minute.
        The evidence that we have about effective strategies,
    really, we're talking about career pathway strategies, that
    structure opportunities within community and technical
    colleges, that work for solutions, and other groups out there
    connect with. Also building in stackable credentials, that poor
    families can build to get towards better jobs, better pay,
    better career advancement opportunities. And these are also
    often connected with sectoral strategies. So focusing on things
    like health care, advanced manufacturing, high level
    construction, where we still have career advancement
    opportunities, and these families can move up.
        [Slide]
        And I'll move to the next slide. I'll cite one example of
    an excellent program that's operating in Austin, Texas, which
    the Ray Marshall Center, that I led for about 25 years, helped
    design this and other programs. So the top line shows the
    earnings for those who went through a career pathways sectoral
    strategy. The bottom line is basically a comparison group.
        So this is a rigorous evaluation piece. What you maybe
    can't see there is that we've got at least eight years of post-
    program evidence on how these families are doing. The
    participants, relative to a comparison group. And you can see,
    that line is getting bigger over time. So again, the message
    is, a career pathway strategy ensconced in a sectoral strategy
    and with some bridge program help. Remedial education to help
    them get the basic skills up, it works. We also have some
    return on investment evidence that echoes that. Returns are
    very strong, and I can go into that in questions if you'd like.
    So that's one.
        Two, we also have been working on what are now called two-
    generation strategies. I see TANF as being potentially an
    enormous opportunity to work both with parents and their
    children simultaneously, with quality human capital skills
    building interventions. We know that when we do that, we get
    good results over time. And we have research underway that's
    going to demonstrate that, I think, more clearly.
        [Slide]
        The next slide is maybe one example. This is a SNS
    framework from just across town. Different components of what a
    two-gen strategy could include. I'll go to the next one. This
    is a framework that we've used in the model that we designed
    for Tulsa, Oklahoma, working with their high-quality Head Start
    program there, and lining people up with, the parents up with a
    career pathway and a sectoral strategy in healthcare, with
    support from HHS here in Washington.
        [Slide]
        Next slide, this is kind of maybe a better concept for how
    all the pieces can be put together. What I will say is that the
    way TANF is currently structured, it's often difficult to do
    that. I'll wrap up my points. The thing I would leave you with
    is that labor markets today are very different than they were
    20 years, when we were thinking about TANF. We don't have as
    many career pathway opportunities. People get a job. If they're
    not in their right employer--the progressive ones that we have
    at this table--if they're not in the right high demand sector,
    they can be left basically moving back and forth and never
    making progress.
        So again, I encourage us to think about structuring our
    work participation requirements, keeping states from diverting
    resources, focusing more on building human capitol.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. King follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                                    ___________

        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you, Mr. King.
        Ms. Doucet, you can proceed, please.

       STATEMENT OF BARBARA DOUCET, CORPORATE DIRECTOR OF HUMAN
                   RESOURCES, OMNI HOTELS AND RESORTS

        Ms. DOUCET. Good morning, Chairman Buchanan, and members of
    the Subcommittee on Human Resources. Thank you for the
    opportunity to speak to you today. My name is Barbara Doucet. I
    am the Corporate Director of Human Resources for Omni Hotels
    and Resorts, based in Dallas, Texas. Currently, I serve on the
    American Hotel and Lodging Association's Human Resource
    Committee, and as Board Member for Women with Promise. It is an
    honor to share with you Omni's success story of how we've
    connected low-income individuals with more than just jobs, but
    life-long careers in the hotel industry, at two of our
    properties in Dallas and Fort Worth.
        By way of background, Omni is a luxury hotel brand, with 60
    hotels in North America and over 18,000 associates. We pride
    ourselves in leaving a lasting impression with every guest by
    exceeding their expectations and inspiring and rewarding our
    associates. My tenure with Omni began in 2008 as the Director
    of Human Resources for the opening of the Omni Fort Worth
    hotel, a 614-room downtown property. After three years, I moved
    to open the Omni Dallas hotel, a 1001-room hotel located in
    downtown Dallas, connected to the Convention Center. Staffing a
    new hotel requires roughly 465 associates. It is no easy task,
    and can only be done successfully with the support of the right
    team. In my role at the Omni Fort Worth, I immediately
    recognized the need to seek out the right partnership that
    would help us be successful. Hence, the beginning of our long-
    standing relationship with Workforce Solutions of Tarrant
    County.
        Partnering with Workforce Solutions, we worked diligently
    in developing various work subsidized programs coordinating
    job----
        Mr. RICE. Excuse me. Could you pull the microphone just a
    little closer, please?
        Ms. DOUCET. Sure.
        Mr. RICE. Thank you.
        Ms. DOUCET. Coordinating job fairs, and placement of
    interns. They screened and referred lower income job seekers
    and proved to be a constant pipeline of new applicants. As a
    result, the Omni Fort Worth hotel was honored as the 2010
    recipient of the Employer Award of Excellence for Workforce
    Solutions of Tarrant County, and I was happy to serve on the
    Tarrant County Workforce Improvement Committee. The Subsidized
    Employment Program provides on-the-job training, where low-
    income candidates can perform the daily tasks of the jobs to
    which they would, could ultimately be hired. We were able to
    train and teach the skills required to be a successful room or
    laundry attendant, bar back, steward, or other critical roles
    within the hospitality industry.
        This model has been a great success for Omni, and is a
    source of pride for the company. If the individual was not
    hired into a permanent position, we worked with the candidates
    and their counselors to help identify other opportunities.
    While managing these individuals and programs does take time
    and resources, Omni encourages each property to be a leader in
    giving back to the greater community. So much so, this is one
    of our core values, local market leadership.
        The relationship with Workforce Solutions continued into
    the new build of the Omni Dallas hotel. As a larger hotel than
    Fort Worth, it was a greater challenge to staff effectively and
    efficiently. Workforce Solutions Greater Dallas proved to be a
    vital partner in the initial hiring events, and remained a
    valuable collaborator after the opening of the hotel. During
    our largest preopening job fair, Workforce Solutions provided
    30 volunteers, who assisted with the intake of more than 3000
    job seekers, over the course of three days.
        As a result, we hired over 250 individuals, through the
    Texas Back to Work Program and Greater Dallas Direct Referrals.
    Additionally, we hired 18 at-risk participants of the Choices
    Program, a TANF employment and training program, which assists
    in transition from welfare to work. These participants gained
    skills training, funded through the Workforce Solutions Self-
    sufficiency Grant, with H.I.S. Bridgebuilders. Once again, in
    2012, Omni was honored with the Employer Award of Excellence
    for Workforce Solutions Greater Dallas.
        Workforce Solutions led us to partner with other community
    agencies, which assisted in job placement and retention,
    provided to youth exiting the foster and juvenile care system.
    In summary, through these programs and partnerships, our
    managers are empowered to treat each associate with the utmost
    care and concern, which naturally leads to caring for them as a
    valued member of the Omni family; another of our core values.
        I would urge the Committee to explore federal legislative
    funding that encourages subsidized employment programs, which
    allows for low-income individuals to receive realistic on-the-
    job training, that can ultimately lead to full-time employment.
    Through the Texas Back to Work Program and other organizations
    like H.I.S. Bridgebuilders and City Square, we are able to
    train low-income individuals, to provide the tools and
    knowledge needed to be an employable, self-sufficient
    individual. Mr. Chairman, thank you for this opportunity.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Doucet follows:]
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                                    ___________

        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you, Ms. Doucet.
        Ms. Larrea, you may proceed with your testimony.

      STATEMENT OF LAURIE BOUILLION LARREA, PRESIDENT, WORKFORCE
                        SOLUTIONS GREATER DALLAS

        Ms. LARREA. Thank you, Chairman Buchanan, Members of the
    Committee, Member Crowley. I appreciate the opportunity to
    speak this morning. I so appreciate Barbara Doucet and Omni
    joining us. I am Laurie Bouillion Larrea, President of
    Workforce Solutions Greater Dallas, which is the Workforce
    Board for Dallas City and Dallas County. 2.5 million people in
    that single county and we are blessed with an unemployment rate
    of 3.7 percent. So that means workforce is the number one issue
    on everyone's mind. Very much like Florida. We are having a
    blessing and yet a challenge. Talent is in demand. Last year
    alone, 99,000 new jobs in North Texas. That's a 13 county area.
    It's very difficult. Our options are to upskill the workers
    that we have, import workers from other states, pull youth into
    the workforce earlier, or we hunker down, educate, train, and
    bring people who are unemployed into the workforce.
        Despite the robust economy and diversity, too many people
    in Dallas remain challenged by poverty, under-employment,
    limited opportunity, and not realizing their full work
    potential. The primary customer in the Dallas model is the
    employer. We strongly believe jobs make life possible. Better
    jobs make for better lives. I've been the executive for the
    Dallas Board since 1989. I've seen a lot of things come and go.
    Cycles of poverty, cycles of public programming.
        But one thing that we believe is very true is that a
    meaningful job benefits the family far better than welfare
    benefits. We made huge strides in the workforce system in
    Texas, which most of you are very familiar with. We have the
    major five federal programs that come into a system in Texas.
    Those programs are TANF, Wagner-Peyser, the SNAP food stamp
    program, and unusually so, the Childcare program. And I'll talk
    about that a little later. And then also WIOA, Workforce
    Innovation Act. Thank you very much. That was an excellent
    change in legislation.
        These federal grants were awarded to the Texas Workforce
    Commission. And thus we create a system. A system approach in
    Texas that converts these programs into a highly visible talent
    pipeline. Specific for connecting employers to job seekers.
    Specific for those people who are not engaged in the employment
    world. In the past two years, our board has also accepted a
    challenge from the Commission to take on Adult Education. Our
    partner is the Dallas County Community College District. We
    founded Work-based Learning.
        It's very hard to incentivize people to get a GED at a time
    when the economy is as good as it is. We need the leverage of
    the employers in a work-based environment. We also specialize
    in sector-based strategies. And the Metroplex has done that for
    over 15 years, looking at our error space, our health care, all
    of those sectors that are prominent.
        The WIOA vision will be fully realized in Texas September
    1, when we integrate the employment of people with
    disabilities. That's coming to this one pipeline of
    underutilized talent that is so desperately needed by our
    employers and jobs that are needed by the people that we are
    serving. Our TANF system is a talent pipeline unto itself. We
    have divided the services into two packages, talent development
    and employer services. That is the key to a good workforce
    system.
        Despite dependence on TANF, we believe that the person
    should come through a door marked ``Job Seeker'' without the
    stigma of having been on public assistance during this time. We
    also believe that we are seeking solutions through work. Work
    teaches work. We know historically, assistance teaches
    assistance. I've been doing this for a very long period of
    time. And I can tell you, we need a solution that includes work
    and additional services. In our system, we're concentrating on
    a full work rate in Texas. So just in the two to three years
    that we've done this, we've increased participation from 31
    percent to 45 percent. And we have cut the denominator, the
    people needing services, in half.
        After securing the job, we do want to work continually with
    the participant. This is getting the Adult Education
    Certificates that they need, working with the employer to see
    that they can do the best that they can do. In terms of
    advancement, much as we have done at Omni. And we believe that
    two things must be addressed. Early child development. The only
    way to break the cycle is early child development. The three
    year old today is our workforce in 18 years. If they have not
    come through the system well, or they've been left in poor
    care, we do have an issue. Beyond that, we are looking at the
    teens. Bringing someone into the workforce at 18 just doesn't
    get it. We need to start them in jobs as early as possible.
        We have our Mayor's Summer Interns program. Mayor Rawlings
    has been very proactive in putting kids to work, but there just
    aren't enough jobs without a little public assistance. The jobs
    reward academic accomplishment with teens, provide quality
    private sector jobs, great role models, and hopefully create an
    aspirational youth that is no longer looking at dependency on
    public assistance being the only option. I thank you all so
    much for listening. And we hope to assist you in this
    perspective. It's time to make a change.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Larrea follows:]
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                                    ___________

        Chairman BUCHANAN. Well, thank you. And I want to thank all
    of our witnesses today for excellent testimony. Now, I will
    proceed to the question and answer session. And I will begin.
    Mr. Wilson, as you know, I've been in business for 40 years, 30
    years before I got here. And I know first-hand, and I've hired
    a lot of minorities and people that were on welfare over the
    years. And people might start at 25, and then they, because of
    the culture, our companies have been able to build--we build a
    culture where we develop and train, and move people up the
    ladder. They might start at 25 or 30, or minimum wage, and then
    they're making 80 to 100,000 today. When I look at it, a lot of
    minorities are making that kind of money locally. But what they
    need is an opportunity, they need a shot. And we need more
    employers stepping up.
        When I look at Florida, it's like deja-vu. We had the big-
    time hit in 2008, as you know. '09, '10, '11, we shredded a lot
    of jobs. But it's back. I mentioned, you mentioned I think in
    your testimony a thousand a day coming to Florida. You need
    800,000 jobs. What's the Florida Chamber--more importantly, the
    business community--going to do about stepping up and making
    sure? Especially as we look at, you know, in terms of welfare.
    The number I've got is out of three that are in welfare, two
    can work. And what are we going to do about getting those two
    to work, in your opinion?
        Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I appreciate your
    leadership in Florida as a business leader as well. And I think
    that's indicative in your question as well. What are we going
    to do in Florida? I think the number one thing we have to think
    about is awareness. The truth is, we, as someone on the panel
    mentioned, culture. And most business leaders started as a
    small business. They actually want to grow their company. They
    want to create economic opportunity for their employees and for
    people in the community. And I can't stress enough the
    importance that hearings like this make, raising the awareness.
    It's the reason that I'm here today.
        The awareness that there are people who want jobs and need
    training and there are programs for those individuals. So
    matchmaking is one of the things that we're doing in Florida. I
    would also add, what we're doing is aligning. We have, there
    are many resources in this workforce system, some public, some
    private, that haven't always been aligned to the benefit of the
    person who needs the training and the person who needs the job.
    There are over 80 programs receiving state and federal money
    that are not very well connected. They are not aligned.
        What we're doing in Florida is through CareerSource
    Florida, which is an award-winning work force system in this
    country, we're aligning what the job-seekers need, by training
    with assistance, with what the employers need. Last year alone
    in Florida, they served over 124,000 companies and placed over
    430,000 individuals into work positions that they wouldn't have
    otherwise found without that coordination between business----
        Chairman BUCHANAN. We've gone about five minutes, so let
    me----
        Mr. WILSON. Okay.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you, Mr. Wilson. Mr. Brame, I want
    to talk to you. You know, just reading the background of the
    company, the guy, the CEO who started that company, to me is a
    visionary. It's not something you've been doing the last couple
    of years, but for 20 years you've been reaching out to the
    welfare community and others. People under-employed. And
    helping them and working with them. Hundreds of employees in
    that predicament in Grand Rapids, Michigan. What was his
    motivation and just in general, how much difference has it
    really made over the years in Grand Rapids, Michigan?
        Mr. BRAME. Actually, Mr. Fred Keller has had a huge impact
    on Cascade Engineering itself. But probably an equally large
    impact on Western Michigan and Grand Rapids community. And, you
    know, in 1973 he started this business. He wanted to create a
    business that could make money, but also treated people with
    dignity and respect. He wanted to create a culture of
    inclusion. And so someone talked about the stigma of welfare.
        And so we tried to create an environment where people want
    to be at Cascade Engineering. You talk about environment where
    people coming out of generational poverty may not have worked
    in that environment before. And so unless you give them the
    tools to be successful, they won't be successful. And one of
    the greatest things we did was, when we partnered up with DHS,
    the Department of Health and Human Services, in Michigan, they
    embedded themselves in that business so that they understood
    what we needed as a business. They became a partner for us. We
    worked together.
        So when she's out there looking at people that are on
    welfare, and she can, she understands the opportunity that
    we're providing. If a person just merely sends someone to
    Cascade Engineering without understanding the skill sets needed
    in manufacturing, they're going to fail. And so I think that's
    been one of the great things. So having an individual that
    understands inclusion, having a company that is very accepting
    of all the different types of backgrounds, and then also having
    the state understanding our business, has created a partnership
    that's allowed us to be successful.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Well, thank you. Now, I'd like to
    recognize the distinguished gentleman, the Ranking Member, for
    any questions he might have.
        Mr. CROWLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. I hope you're enjoying that.
        Mr. CROWLEY. I love that. I love the sound of that. Mr.
    Chairman, thank you. Thank you all for your testimony today.
    Mr. Brame, I just want to thank you for, I think, the passion
    you're bringing to your testimony. All of you do, on the front
    lines, in terms of welfare to work. So thank you for all your
    testimony today. Welfare recipients are parents. Not entirely,
    but for the most part. Often single parents at that. And
    providing childcare so that they can work was a key goal of
    both Democrats and Republicans, working in bi-partisan way, who
    supported welfare to work in 1996.
        Most states have ended up dramatically cutting TANF
    investment in childcare as part of their overall diversion
    strategy of TANF funds. And the Congressional Research Service
    estimates that only 17 percent of eligible families currently
    get childcare help at all. Dr. King, I know you're an academic,
    but we have a little bit of time. And if you could keep your
    answers as short as possible, we can get more in writing as
    well. Because I have a couple of questions for you. Can low-
    wage single parents work without childcare assistance?
        Mr. KING. They can, but it's not going to stick, all right?
        Mr. CROWLEY. Not going to stick.
        Mr. KING. I mean, if we want those parents to succeed in
    the labor market. Quality childcare is terribly expensive. Even
    basic childcare, some of the more recent estimates show that
    that's about like sending a kid to college.
        Mr. CROWLEY. So in fact in some states it actually costs
    more for private childcare, or for childcare than it does for
    public universities----
        Mr. KING. That's right.
        Mr. CROWLEY [continuing]. Is your point. Is reliable
    childcare a factor--so it's safe to say that with reliable
    childcare--not just simple childcare, putting your most
    important asset somewhere for the day, but reliable good
    quality childcare, that that is a key factor as to whether or
    not an employee is a stable employee. Would you agree?
        Mr. KING. Absolutely. And I think we should understand that
    in the context of what many companies are doing, which is using
    last-minute scheduling software. And if a single mom in
    particular is trying to get their kid in good childcare, and
    they don't know when their shift is going to start until two
    hours before, they are up the creek. Yes.
        Mr. CROWLEY. Forget about severe snowstorms. From your work
    with two-generation strategies, are there other hidden costs to
    low quality childcare for families and for state and federal
    assisted programs?
        Mr. KING. Absolutely. I think if we don't do this right the
    first time, it's like the Andy Granatelli thing, right? Pay me
    now, pay me later. If we're not serving these parents and
    children at the same time, we're almost sure to see those kids
    coming back as future dependents, basically, on public
    assistance. Whether it's SNAP or it's TANF.
        Mr. CROWLEY. About those two-generation strategies, two-
    generation programs often involve supports like high-quality
    pre-school. Not obviously related to parental work. Can you
    explain further why we should consider the ``treat the whole
    family'' approach even if the main goal is for the parents to
    work their way off of welfare?
        Mr. KING. So we've got wonderful evidence that's come out
    in the last several years. Burkings has produced a report. Ron
    Haskins, Sara McClanahan, Irv Garfinkle, did a nice piece on
    the future of children that shows basically, skills beget
    skills. To echo what Laurie Larrea was saying a minute ago, if
    we actually build skills for parents and kids at the same time,
    we get multiplicative effects. They're larger. They're longer
    lasting. So if parents are better educated, their kids are
    going to go on to college. We know there's a strong role
    modeling effect.
        Mr. CROWLEY. Ending the inheritance of welfare, so to
    speak?
        Mr. KING. Correct. So if you're getting welfare mom
    trained, if she's going through her education, she's at that
    very moment role modeling for her kids. And if her education
    goes up and if she earns more money when the children are
    smaller, we know that's going to pay off for those kids having
    better lives over time. And we know the social mobility stats
    in the U.S. don't look so good relative to our OECD
    competitors. So I think it's something that we, we have at our
    fingertips if we deployed the resources better, and if we took
    care of some of the wrinkles that we have. So for example, we
    don't use outcome standards in TANF. If we could align the
    standards for outcomes in TANF along the line of the Workforce
    Innovation and Opportunity Act and make adjustment
    statistically for the kind of folks we're dealing with, we
    really could bring those systems together better.
        Mr. CROWLEY. Mr. Chairman, I just want to note, there are
    27 seconds left. The gentleman has done outstanding work in
    proving that academics can testify in under five minutes.
        Mr. KING. It's not easy.
        Mr. CROWLEY. I want to thank him for that.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman
    from Washington, Mr. Reichert.
        Mr. REICHERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And congratulations
    on your new chairmanship and your first hearing. Thank you to
    the witnesses for being here today, and especially, thank you
    for all the work that you do to help those in need in trying to
    find employment, and bring their families to a place where they
    can hope and have hope for the future, for their children and
    for their families. Mr. Brame, thank you for sharing the story
    of Amy.
        I think that each one of us on the dais and each of you
    have a story to share too, I'm sure. We all do. Sometimes I
    share mine. And I notice there's some young people in the back
    of the room, seated behind you, listening to the testimony,
    which is encouraging today, for all of you to be here and
    listen to how Congress works or maybe doesn't work.
        We're trying today. And just for your information, I look
    like I've been here 40 years, but I've only been here 12. Well,
    11 and a half. I was a police officer, sheriff's deputy, for 33
    years, in Seattle Washington, Kent County Sheriff's. Oldest of
    seven kids. And I've seen everything you could see, possibly
    see, in my 33 years in law enforcement. And I really get what
    you're talking about today as far as employment and helping
    those people who are on the street, or in between on the street
    and getting a job, or getting job and moving on and upward.
        You know, we had a witness in here not too long ago who was
    a front line employee. New terminology for the young people.
    That's a new employee, front line employee for Goodwill, who
    now is a manager there. And all due to someone taking her in,
    giving her opportunities, training and education.
        I recently had the chance to visit Van Doren Sales, and
    it's in East Wanache. Some people say ``Win-a-chee.'' But it's
    East Wanache, Washington State. It's a small town in the
    central part of the state. And they're a family-owned company
    with about 136 employees, that design and build fruit and fruit
    container handling equipment. Their company motto is ``Quality
    Pays.'' But one thing that they know for sure is, the number
    one resource in their business is what, people. And they take
    care of their people through training and education and OJT, on
    the job training.
        And they have seen, of course, a rise in their
    productivity. Happier community. They participate in the
    community. All those things that you have all talked about. And
    I just wanted to turn really quickly to Ms. Doucet and just
    have you talk a little bit more about identifying talent
    internally and the returns on your investments when you do
    that. Not only the financial piece, but the human investment.
        Ms. DOUCET. One of the things with Omni hotels is that we
    value our communities, the communities that we are in. So being
    able to build a partnership, to give back to those communities
    and develop the partnership with many organizations. So while
    we worked a great deal with Workforce Solutions, we also
    partnered with multiple other agencies to try and build a
    network to have access to individuals who are looking for
    employment. And how we help them grow and development. And
    similar to the situation given earlier as well, we have many
    stories of individuals who started at entry level positions and
    have been able to move into leadership roles.
        Mr. REICHERT. Well, thank you for your hard work. And I
    hope that continues too. And Ms. Larrea, could you also expand
    on your idea of how that all works together? When you give
    those opportunities to people, what's the returned resources,
    the human resource? We get the financial peace, but in
    providing that opportunity for families?
        Ms. LARREA. Thank you, sir. We have also done, as Barbara
    mentioned, the community aspect of this. Many people still live
    in poverty in our community. I've noticed that--and Barbara
    named H.I.S. Bridgebuilders, City Square. Most recently, we
    have new partnerships coming. Wrap-around services, coming from
    the faith-based and non-profit communities, doing things that
    we cannot necessarily do.
        Mr. REICHERT. Good.
        Ms. LARREA. That engagement in the solution has been as
    valuable as the project itself and the public investment.
    Having people come together with a common cause. That common
    cause is community, restoring what we need. Invaluable. You
    can't put a price on that one.
        Mr. REICHERT. Right.
        Ms. LARREA. And ownership. Ownership of the solution as a
    community coming together. So we've been very lucky. People are
    the asset. And if you don't, you know--I think Florida said it.
    It's not about taxes anymore, it's about whether or not you can
    find the work for it, where you're going to move your company,
    where you're going to expand your company. We've been very,
    very lucky, and yet I'm a little concerned about not having
    enough people.
        Mr. REICHERT. I yield back. Thank you.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. Mr. Davis, you're now
    recognized.
        Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I too
    want to congratulate you on the chairmanship of this very
    important committee, of which I'm pleased to be a part of. I
    want to thank all of our witnesses for coming. I worked at one
    juncture during my life as a training director, with the
    purpose of trying to bring low-income individuals into the
    medical field. So I know the challenges that you face, and I
    know the difficulty of your work.
        Mr. King, I represent much of the inner city part of
    Chicago. And so I see first-hand many individuals, low-income,
    who desperately would like to have a good job so that they
    could work and take care of their families. But they often lack
    the skills and training or education necessary to achieve this.
    For this reason, my Responsible Fatherhood bill proposes to
    modernize the TANF Contingency Fund to provide additional
    employment and training opportunities by focusing the
    Contingency Fund, to fund sectorial training, coupled with
    other structured TANF reforms. This re-design of the
    Contingency Fund promises to make quality education and
    training more available to the TANF recipients. Could you speak
    to the success of such programs, and what they've done?
        Mr. KING. So if we look at the emerging evidence on
    sectoral and career pathway programs, again we only have about
    six, seven studies at this point. HHS is actually funding a
    very large evaluation of the Health Professions Opportunity
    Grant Program. So we'll have more information in a couple of
    years down the road. By the way, our Tulsa Career Advance
    Program, which serves mainly the parents of Head Start, early
    Head Start kids, is part of that.
        But the early evidence we have from random assignment based
    studies, quasi-experiments, including the Capital IDEA slide
    that I showed you, all of those programs are showing very
    strong impacts on employment, on retention, on earnings
    increases. We also see reductions in TANF receipt, in receipt
    of unemployment insurance. But we also see that for many of
    these parents going through, they then become eligible for the
    first tier safety net, which is their Unemployment Insurance
    System. And that is, again, a better place to stop than
    necessarily going on TANF.
        So these programs seem to be working the way the theories
    suggest they should. And again, I--we're going to learn more
    about that down the road. The other thing I would say is that
    the return on investment from those looks better than the long-
    term return on stocks. And forget about the, the recent stock
    market worries. I'm talking about the long term.
        Mr. DAVIS. Thank you.
        Mr. KING. So it's a good investment. It beats my IRAs.
        Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much. And Mr. Brame, let me just
    tell you, I am intrigued by the work that Cascades Engineering
    is doing, and compliment you and all of those who work at your
    company. You mentioned removing barriers. And one of the groups
    that I'm particularly concerned about in terms of barriers are
    individuals with criminal backgrounds. Could you amplify a bit
    on how you handle that, and what you do with it?
        Mr. BRAME. You are absolutely correct. And particularly an
    African American community, between poverty and issues of
    criminal backgrounds are two huge barriers. So one of the
    things we've done in Cascade Engineering is, first of all, we
    have policies that allow individuals with criminal backgrounds
    to apply at Cascade Engineering. And we've moved the box.
    Meaning that when they fill out that application, we don't ask
    that question right off the bat. We determine whether we like
    that person. That person is qualified.
        And then later on, we ask the individual about his or her
    criminal background. And the second thing that we do is that I
    as the Executive Vice President, I make the determination
    whether that individual would be hired. It's been our
    experience that when you have middle level managers making that
    determination, they might think, ``You know what? This might
    not look good for me if something goes wrong.'' And so at
    Cascade Engineering, an executive, a VP makes that call.
        And we also allow that individual to make a determination
    whether he or she will tell other employees about their
    criminal background. We don't out those individuals, so they
    can keep that to themselves. We have many individuals that are
    mentors to others and talk about their criminal background. We
    have a lot of individuals that choose to keep that to
    themselves. And so we allow them to make that decision.
        Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much, and I really appreciate the
    effort. And I think that is an excellent approach. And I yield
    back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. Mr. Rice, you're recognized.
        Mr. RICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to all the
    members of the panel for being here. I just really love hearing
    your success stories. I think the best welfare to work program
    is a good, healthy economy, like you have in Florida, like you
    have in Texas. Looking at the poverty rates, you know, we were
    about where we are, around 15 percent in the country in the
    early 90s. Then it went down to about 12 percent and stayed
    there for a long time. And since 2008, it's been back up around
    15 percent. So I think the best thing that we can do here in
    Washington is to do what we can to get our economy going. And
    the best way to do that is make this country competitive. But
    that being said, so many things you all have said intrigue me.
        You know, I come from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, which
    has a lot of similarities to Florida. And the tourism economy
    has a lot of similarities, or same issues, with Omni hotels.
    And I hear employers all the time in my hometown tell me that
    they simply cannot fully staff. I had a lady who has 3000 hotel
    rooms in Myrtle Beach tell me that they needed literally
    hundreds of people.
        Now, one problem we've got that you probably don't have in
    Dallas and less so in Florida, is we're a little more seasonal.
    And I'd love to have your advice on how--we actually arranged
    for a job fair in a rural community. Had you know, a couple
    hundred people show up. Arranged for buses to go back and
    forth. And it was, it worked well, but it just gradually
    diminished. How do we keep that fire going, Ms. Larrea?
        Ms. LARREA. That is an interesting challenge. But I started
    my career down in Southeast Texas, on the coast. So I know very
    well about getting people to stick, getting the jobs to stick.
    I think one of the things that we spoke about was early
    learning, early education becoming part of the work for kids,
    teenagers coming to the job. Do you have an aggressive teen
    program? If you don't, you need one, where the teens would
    become familiar with the seasonal work and buy into that,
    become part. That becomes just a mainstay. We have it with Six
    Flags. Kids know when those jobs open, and they make their way
    there. The other would be job sharing. Finding a compatible
    off-season job so that people don't have to pick a job for a
    season. They actually know I work ``here,'' and then I shift to
    ``this job''. It's bringing it to them in a way that they can
    organize. If they have good organizational skills, they
    probably wouldn't suffer from unemployment and poverty. They
    need that networking and that, the explaining it to them.
        Mr. RICE. Okay. Thank you. And I only have a limited time.
    You and I could talk about this for a hour. But I want to have
    Ms. Doucet--is that how you say your name?
        Ms. DOUCET. Ms. Doucet.
        Mr. RICE. Doucet. These jobs that we're talking about, with
    the seasonal hotels in Myrtle Beach and also with Omni in
    Dallas, I assume we're talking about like housekeeping and
    linen and all these types of things. Are you paying minimum
    wage, or are you having to go above minimum wage to attract
    these people?
        Ms. DOUCET. So we make sure that we are competitive in the
    markets and going through to assure our associates are----
        Mr. RICE. But with a three percent unemployment rate, I
    imagine you're well above minimum wage. Am I----
        Ms. DOUCET. We are above minimum wage in our properties.
    And going through for most of those areas. But it is something
    that we stay competitive with what the trend in that
    marketplace is. And as you were mentioning earlier, trying to
    get individuals in, there are so many--yes?
        Mr. RICE. Does the government, does the government force
    you to pay over minimum wage, or you do that in response to the
    competition and the need for these people?
        Ms. DOUCET. We ensure that we are competitive to the
    salaries. So we make that decision based on our wage survey.
        Mr. RICE. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you.
        Ms. DOUCET. Okay.
        Mr. RICE. Mr. Brame, I want your advice on this. We have in
    Florence, South Carolina, which is a little more industrial, we
    have a great technical school. The Southern Institute of
    Manufacturing and Technology. And they have something called a
    computerized digital machining program. And they can only
    take--excuse me--80 kids a year. And it's a two-year program.
    And they have two problems. One, they can only get 40 kids a
    year to sign up for it. And two, they don't finish the program.
    The ones that do--because there's such a need for this--that
    the people get hired after one year, making 60 to 80,000 a
    year. What would be your advice on A, how they can attract, and
    B, retain these kids, when there's such a dramatic need for it?
        Mr. BRAME. One problem we're having in Western Michigan is
    that manufacturing is not sexy. If you talk to individuals'
    parents, and you ask them, you know, should I, should I go to
    college right away or should I try to get a skill and go into
    the manufacturing field, then you know, 90 percent of the time,
    a parent will say, ``You know what, you might as well go to
    college.'' But in Western Michigan in particular, we have good
    paying jobs that a person can come out an hourly rate making 20
    plus dollars and hour, or a salary rate, making a significant
    income.
        So if the problem is, that they're getting hired before
    they finish and they're getting those jobs, I'm not sure that's
    the, necessarily a problem. It might be a good thing. Because
    maybe those skills, maybe that training is not necessarily what
    they need. But I would argue that you need to go back upstream,
    talk to schools, talk to parents. Make sure they understand
    that manufacturing is a valuable job in this community, and
    make it more sexy.
        Mr. RICE. Thank you. I yield back my negative 40 seconds.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. Mr. Reed, you're recognized.
        Mr. REED. Well, thank you, Chairman, and thank you to our
    panel for this testimony. I am all in when we come to reforming
    our welfare program, TANF, all the various programs across the
    way. Because they're just not working. We've had years and
    decades of experience showing that throwing cash at this
    problem is not going to solve this problem. We need to do more.
    We need to do better. And so I am intrigued by some different
    proposals out there.
        One of the existing proposals that's of interest to me, my
    former predecessor and a mentor of mine, a guy by the name of
    Amo Hoten, who sat on this Committee, was a proud sponsor and a
    creator of the Work Opportunity Tax Credit Program. Can you
    give me--and what that really is designed to do is to stand
    with our employers in the sense of trying to provide an
    opportunity by way of a job to individuals that are facing
    barriers to going into employment. Any feedback on the WOTC
    program that you could offer us that--anyone--to reform it, to
    make it more of the 21st century improvements that we could do
    on the Work Opportunity Tax Credit Program that you may have
    experienced? Anyone up there want to jump at that? All right,
    Mr. King. I'll give you a little time. Go ahead.
        Mr. KING. All right. I think the way to think about WOTC is
    it's a complement to other things, not necessarily a
    replacement.
        Mr. REED. Perfect.
        Mr. KING. So it can be a good add-on at the end, but I
    don't think there's any replacement for providing a talented
    employee to take the job first. And what we don't want to do is
    to basically stigmatize. We have research that shows that in
    many cases, if a recipient's going out with WOTC, the employers
    go, ``Whoops, damaged good.'' We don't want to do that. So I
    think the first thing to sell is talent, and then you follow up
    with the tax credit.
        Mr. REED. Okay, that's good input. So we'll continue to
    work on that. One bigger concept that I want to work on and
    focus on from the panel, the whole concept of the welfare
    cliff. The whole concept of you, you go back to work and you
    hit this penalty when you get to a certain level, a threshold.
    And essentially, what I've heard, talking to folks out in the
    real world, talking to people in Western New York, is that
    there is a real penalty that is either--it's in reality and it
    is recognized by people that are in the workforce.
        I've had employers, in my private practice, before I came
    to Congress, I had an employee refuse a holiday bonus because
    her, her assigned worker at the county office told her, ``You
    take that bonus, you lose your penalties.'' How can that be
    America? How can that be America? That I had someone tell me
    they're going to refuse their holiday bonus because they're
    being told by their government representative, ``You will lose
    your benefit.'' We have to do better than that. So I'm very
    intrigued on concepts from the panel. And we'll start with Mr.
    Wilson and then Ms. Larrea, if I'm saying it correctly. How do
    we reform that welfare cliff? How do we attack that welfare
    cliff to stand with the American work ethic, to stand with
    individuals that are getting back on their feet? And what can
    we do? What would be your recommended course in that action?
    Mr. Wilson?
        Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much for the question. I think
    you're absolutely over the target of one of the biggest hurdles
    that we have to uncover. The people who know the most about
    that cliff are the people who are burdened by it right now. The
    other 80 percent of America doesn't know what you're talking
    about. So to me the number one thing that we can do is to use
    our collective ability to educate all of America about what
    this cliff is, and then create a sliding scale where employers
    and those stuck in generational poverty know exactly what they
    can expect from their government and from their private
    employer. This is a mis-information mis-match in my opinion.
    The resources are there. People don't know about it. And I
    think it can be fixed by awareness and a sliding scale of
    support.
        Mr. REED. Perfect. Ms. Larrea.
        Ms. LARREA. I would strongly support the sliding scale
    conversation. I think what we neglect to recognize is there is
    a very large cavity between benefits and still living in
    poverty and under-employment. And we seem to think you just
    jump over that gap. Well, that gap is rather large. That's why
    we have such an increase in food stamp rolls that are not part
    of public welfare. So I like the idea of a sliding scale.
        Mr. REED. I appreciate it. And when we're talking sliding
    scale, obviously we're talking about sharing the paycheck that
    an individual receives, they can keep a portion of that
    paycheck, and then the other resources get returned to the
    government operations. Because one of the things that resonates
    with me--and you said it--work teaches work, assistance teaches
    assistance. And I know an eight year old that I was a law
    guardian for, and I won't tell that story again. But
    essentially with my 15 and 17 year old at home, they only do
    about two percent of what I tell them to do. But 98 percent of
    what they observe. And so if we can get people back working, do
    you agree--like Mr. Brame, the story of Amy----
        Mr. BRAME. Yes.
        Mr. REED. Her kids said, ``It was you, mom, inspired me to
    go to college?''
        Mr. BRAME. Yes.
        Mr. REED. That's what I'm trying to do here in Washington,
    D.C. So I would--as I'm out of time, any input you have where
    we can reward that American work ethic, get people back on
    their two feet, and break that generational cycle of poverty
    that we see? With that I yield back.
        Mr. BRAME. And with that story of Amy, it wasn't just in
    her case, not just getting a bonus. She had to deal with not
    taking promotions. That's a more long-term problem. You choose
    to stay in a position that pays you x amount of dollars,
    refusing to take these steps. 15 years from now, think about
    that money compound, and where you could be. You could be a
    manager, you could be a leader, and you choose not to do that,
    because of the cliff.
        Mr. REED. Amen, Mr. Brame.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. Mr. Dold, you're recognized.
        Mr. DOLD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And now, I too want to
    thank the panel. And I just want to pick up where my friend Mr.
    Reed was. And we need to break this cycle of poverty. And
    frankly, the most effective thing that we can do for someone
    that's in poverty is find a job. And I come from a district in
    Northern Illinois. And we are a heavy manufacturing district.
    And I can tell you time and again, the number of employers that
    say, ``I've got good jobs available. I can't find people
    qualified to take those jobs.''
        Mr. Wilson, you were talking about the idea that a quality
    education is the key in this process. And yet we need to make
    sure that those people get a chance to be educated. One of the
    things that I'm working on here in the Congress is a pilot
    program to make sure that employers that are doing this
    training program, perhaps maybe the government pays half the
    salary to kind of offset that training mechanism. And idea, so
    that the employer--or the employee has a chance to prove
    themselves. Mr. Brame, I'm fascinated by what Cascade
    Engineering is doing, and want to applaud you for it.
        Mr. BRAME. Thank you.
        Mr. DOLD. What's the secret sauce that Joyce has? Joyce is,
    she's the person that DHS, that's been hired----
        Mr. BRAME. Yes.
        Mr. DOLD [continuing]. By Cascade?
        Mr. BRAME. Yes.
        Mr. DOLD. That's embedded in the company?
        Mr. BRAME. Yes.
        Mr. DOLD. What is she doing that's different than an HR
    manager?
        Mr. BRAME. Well, if you think about it, there are questions
    that I as an employer shouldn't be asking an employee. But she
    can go in and resolve those issues for her. An issue of
    childcare, issues of transportation, issues personal to her
    life. On the extreme, issues of domestic violence. These are
    things that she can go in and get support for this individual,
    that I can't do.
        Mr. DOLD. Mr. Brame, you're hitting on incredible issues
    that employers are trying to deal with right now. So she can go
    ahead and do these types of things. So the people that are
    watching this hearing right now from around the country,
    employers that are watching, they want to know what is it that
    they can do? How can they replicate this? Because we want to be
    able to knock down barriers for those people to be able to see
    success in the workplace. How are they able to do it?
        Mr. BRAME. I think having conversations with the
    appropriate state agency, we want the same things. I think
    sometimes we don't realize that we do want the same things. So
    we have these conversations. We go aha. We're trying to, in our
    case, find educated employees or find employees that can do
    great jobs. She wants to take people off of welfare. How can we
    meet in the middle? How can we have a win-win, and we're able
    to do that effectively? By having these conversations, setting
    up clear criteria, and us both having training programs to make
    sure these individuals are successful.
        Mr. DOLD. Ms. Larrea, again, you talked about work
    encourages work, or work teaches work, and assistance teaches
    assistance. And the biggest thing to breaking that cycle of
    poverty you said was early childhood development. How early do
    we need to go?
        Ms. LARREA. Zero to three.
        Mr. DOLD. Zero to three. Okay. So early childhood education
    and an investment, Head Start education. And which, again, I
    was pleased to see the Congress do, certainly during the
    budget, an increase in Head Start, I think of 570 million
    dollars this year. One of the things that I'm interested in,
    would be interested in your take--there's a high school that is
    doing things outside of the box back in my district. It's
    Crystal Ray School in Wakegan. And they require their students,
    freshmen through senior in high school, to actually work one
    day out in the workforce.
        So a company like Cascade Engineering might say, ``I'm
    willing to hire one.'' And when they say they're willing to
    hire one, that means they get a freshman, a sophomore, a junior
    and a senior, and then one of them will rotate back on the
    fifth day.
        Now, what that teaches them is not only does it give them
    work ethic, not only do they have mentors in that new place of
    employment, but it gives them an enormous leg up when it comes
    time to going into the workforce. Are you experiencing anything
    like that down in Dallas?
        Ms. LARREA. Absolutely. I wish we had a lot more resources
    to do it. But our employer partners, and I know Omni is a
    partner in the Meers Fellowship Program. Kids, kids are
    transformed by work. They are. They see a future that isn't at
    home. It's different.
        Mr. DOLD. How can we better do that, in terms of creating
    that environment where we can get more people into the
    workforce? Ms. Doucet, do you have an idea on that?
        Ms. DOUCET. Yes. I think that actually encouraging that
    partnership, we invite a lot of middle schools and high schools
    to come to our facilities and bring their classes. And it gives
    them an opportunity to see the heart of the house as well as
    the front of the house, and explore avenues they didn't even
    anticipate they would be able to look into, for future job
    growth. We do get a lot of interest from our students that way,
    in building those relationships very early.
        Mr. DOLD. Ms. Larrea, I want to go back to you for a
    second. One of the things that I hear from a lot of folks is
    again, that they had an issue with the law, they're having a
    tough time even breaking through that first interview. What
    have you been able to do down in Dallas to be able to help
    those? Because again, they might have made a bad decision. We
    want to make sure they can get back on their feet. How do we
    best enable and help them?
        Ms. LARREA. A lot of partnership and advocacy, particularly
    with government working with business. But we also are now
    taking Workforce into the jails. Into the Dallas County Jails.
    Teaching GED and ESL inside the jails and then hopefully
    bringing them into the community college system for skills.
    Skills will possibly overshadow an offense, in this kind of
    competitive market.
        Mr. DOLD. Great. Thank you so much. My time's expired.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. Mr. Smith, you're recognized.
        Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm
    excited about this hearing, because we're exploring the value
    of first work, and then also the engagement with government
    programs and also private employers. The key piece there is the
    engagement. We've seen, as you all have testified, the positive
    results with engagement, in those too. And I've been
    particularly pretty impressed with the testimony from Mr. Brame
    and also Ms. Larrea, in regards to the boots on the ground, I
    guess, and actually seeing first hand of people getting front
    line jobs. And a lack of work or limited work as we all know is
    the number one cause of poverty.
        And representing a Congressional district by some that
    would say it's the 18th poorest in the country, this is
    something that is very important to me. Mr. Brame, what I would
    like to ask you, it seems that the Michigan Department of Human
    Services really values your company's partnership to help them
    move individuals off of welfare and into full-time employment.
    Was that always the way?
        Mr. BRAME. We began these conversations for--and this was
    the mid-60s, and we, I think we piqued their interest. I think
    they weren't used to employers coming to them and saying,
    ``Hey, how can we work together?'' I think in the beginning, we
    had to work through some issues, because they weren't used to
    being so connected to business.
        But since the late 1990s, we've had great connections with
    their leadership. We have great connections locally and even
    throughout the state. And so we're able to effectively create
    and move these programs, and they've been able to expand these
    programs to other areas. So in the beginning, it was just a
    little awkward, because they weren't used to it, but they were
    very receptive, and it's grown ever since.
        Mr. SMITH. So it was awkward. Did you--did Cascade have to
    persuade DHS to be involved, or just they had to get----
        Mr. BRAME. Yes. For example, when we were discussing moving
    the social worker to our facility, you know, there wasn't a
    process for making that happen. And so you had to ask all these
    questions. ``Well, can you do it or can't you do it?''
    Something that's been so impactful in our program, in the
    beginning was like, ``We just don't do that.'' And so we began
    to say, ``Well, why don't you do that?'' And they asked the
    question, ``Would it be more impactful if she was there?''
    ``Yes.'' And so sometimes we have to ask these extra questions
    to change their procedures and policies.
        Mr. SMITH. What advice would you give other states who are
    trying to work with their Human Service Agencies that may be a
    little apprehensive about it?
        Mr. BRAME. I would suggest that if social workers go out
    and actually spend time with businesses. Actually go in and see
    what the businesses are doing. Understand what their needs are.
    I think that's, sometimes that's the biggest disconnect. When
    you have a social agency trying to provide employment to
    someone or trying to spend dollars of a specific program, and
    they don't know what the employers need or want. I think asking
    the employers what they need, understanding what they need,
    will cause programs to be much more successful.
        Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. Ms. Noem, you're recognized.
        Mrs. NOEM. Thank you. Mr. Wilson, I was reading your
    testimony. I was struck by your description of a lot of your
    significant challenges that you've faced in Florida, and
    especially as it relates to generational poverty. Because
    although the Bureau of Labor Statistics says that South Dakota
    has the second lowest unemployment rate in the nation, at 2.9
    percent, we still have portions of the state that live in
    generational poverty. And some of the challenges that you
    specifically discussed had to do with housing and access to
    transportation. And those are some of the basic needs that we
    face as well.
        Some of these areas, you know, obviously, are in a
    situation where they're quite remote and rural areas, which
    might be a little different than what you've faced, but I'd
    like you to expand a little bit on some of the solutions that
    you pursued that might be useful not just in urban areas but
    also rural areas, on addressing those challenges. And also
    building the relationships to help lift people out of
    generational poverty. That's definitely what we see programs
    doing in the parts of our state that are dealing with high
    unemployment rates. Some of my tribes, where they're located,
    have been in 80 to 90 percent unemployment rates for
    generations.
        Mr. WILSON. Yes.
        Mrs. NOEM. And it's become the norm, and not--and the state
    is looking for solutions. I'm looking for solutions, on how we
    can build relationships between the private sector and programs
    that already exist, to change them so that they truly do lift
    people out of these situations. Could you give some more
    feedback on things that have worked?
        Mr. WILSON. I certainly will. Thank you very much for the
    question and for the observation. It's my perspective that most
    business leaders actually want to do the right thing. And my
    colleague on the panel today talked about what they're doing in
    Michigan. Most companies in America are not allowed to do that.
    You think of lawsuit abuse reform. You think of the
    regulations. Companies want to do the right thing. And
    sometimes government rules and regulations actually are a dis-
    incentive to doing the right thing. I can't stress enough the
    importance of awareness of this problem.
        As I mentioned before, most people in America have no idea
    what generational poverty is, and that these people are born
    into this. And most people would have no idea that half of the
    people born into generational poverty never exit it, because
    they don't know what opportunities are out there. So whether
    it's re-thinking the way we provide services to people who are
    looking for employment--they need transportation, they need
    healthcare, they need training. I think my colleague actually
    said it better than me.
        If we can focus the thinking to outcome based resources,
    let's focus on the outcome of the parent and the outcome of
    that child. And put the adults--everybody providing services in
    the back seat so to speak. And let's focus on that employer,
    the parent and the person who's stuck in generational poverty.
    The rest of it is easy to figure out. I think we've been
    focusing too much on getting resources to programs and places.
        Mrs. NOEM. So do we need the flexibility for each
    individual situation? So we have to look at that individual
    that is on programs today, what would address their situation?
    And then at that point, does the program need to be flexible at
    the state level, for the state to address? Because it's very
    hard for us in Washington, D.C. to decide how a program should
    function. I think that's where we see the restrictions that
    don't allow it to be formulated in a manner that can be fixed
    for each individual situation.
        Mr. WILSON. Yeah, thank you for the question. Yeah, I
    believe that in Washington, we can set a national goal of
    ending generational poverty in 10 years. And then I think we
    can say to states and to local governments, ``You come up with
    a solution that works best for the people in your community,
    for the employers in your community.'' And let's make sure the
    resources are outcome based. In our state, for example, we have
    20 million residents. We've made it a priority for low-income
    individuals in Florida to essentially be able to have school
    choice, through something called the--it's a miracle in my
    opinion. Something called the Tax Credit Scholarship Program.
    These kids' lives and their families lives are being changed
    because----
        Mrs. NOEM. Did you base that off of annual income? How did
    you----
        Mr. WILSON. That's right.
        Mrs. NOEM [continuing]. Qualify?
        Mr. WILSON. That's right, yeah, it's income based.
        Mrs. NOEM. Okay.
        Mr. WILSON. And it's a huge success story. Several states
    are now implementing that. It's related to this conversation. I
    would encourage you to look at it.
        Mrs. NOEM. Any other examples you could give us of
    extremely successful programs that you feel like would really
    work? And not just in urban areas. I'm thinking immediately
    about your tax credit solution for school choice would be
    difficult in a rural area, where the only school they might
    have access to is, within 20 miles, is that school. But beyond
    that, for that flexibility in a program, that would work in a
    rural area as well, is there one that comes to the top of your
    mind that might work?
        Mr. WILSON. Yeah, thank you. On the subject of education,
    we also have America's largest virtual school program, called
    the Florida Virtual School Program. It is so excellent that my
    own kids have gone through our Virtual School Program. Although
    they certainly could go to a great school, a public school, if
    they wanted to. So virtual schooling, school choice, these are
    essential. They help solve some of the challenges of childcare.
    They help solve access. They help people who, because of their
    zip code, may not otherwise have access to excellence in
    education.
        Mrs. NOEM. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman BUCHANAN. I'd like to thank all of our witnesses
    for appearing before us today. Today's hearing was an important
    step as we think about the future, welfare reforms and getting
    the incentives right for good outcomes. Employers are often
    overlooked partners, when we think about helping families out
    of poverty. Including them in this conversation is good for
    them. It's good for the recipient, it's good for the community,
    and it's good for the taxpayers.
        As I looked at some of this data myself, two out of three
    that are in welfare would like a job and like an opportunity,
    in the state of Florida, and I'm sure, throughout the country.
    In our state, we need them and they need an opportunity. And we
    need to find a way where corporate America, small businesses,
    can come together with their local community in terms of
    providing it. Please be advised that members will have two
    weeks to submit their written questions to be answered later in
    writing. Those questions and your answers will be made part of
    the formal hearing today. With that, the Subcommittee will
    adjourn.
        [Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
        [Supplemental witness material follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
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