[House Hearing, 114 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
SEEKING JUSTICE FOR VICTIMS OF PALESTINIAN TERRORISM IN ISRAEL
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
FEBRUARY 2, 2016
__________
Serial No. 114-64
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
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Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
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U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
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COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah, Chairman
JOHN L. MICA, Florida ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland,
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio Ranking Minority Member
JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
JIM JORDAN, Ohio ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
TIM WALBERG, Michigan Columbia
JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee JIM COOPER, Tennessee
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania
CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan
RON DeSANTIS, Florida TED LIEU, California
MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey
KEN BUCK, Colorado STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands
MARK WALKER, North Carolina MARK DeSAULNIER, California
ROD BLUM, Iowa BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania
JODY B. HICE, Georgia PETER WELCH, Vermont
STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
WILL HURD, Texas
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama
Jennifer Hemingway, Staff Director
David Rapallo, Minority Staff Director
Art Arthur, Staff Director, Subcommittee on National Security
Mike Howell, Counsel
Willie Marx, Clerk
Subcommittee on National Security
RON DESANTIS, Florida, Chairman
JOHN L. MICA, Florida STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts,
JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee Ranking Member
JODY B. HICE, Georgia ROBIN KELLY, Illinois
STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma, Vice Chair BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan
WILL HURD, Texas TED LIEU, California
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on February 2, 2016................................. 1
WITNESSES
Mr. Brad Wiegmann, Deputy Assistant Attorney General, National
Security Division, U.S. Department of Justice
Oral Statement............................................... 5
Ms. Sarri Singer, Founder and Director, Strength to Strength
Oral Statement............................................... 7
Written Statement............................................ 10
Mr. Peter Schwartz, Uncle of a Victim of Terrorism
Oral Statement............................................... 14
Written Statement............................................ 16
Mr. Arnold Roth, Father of a Victim of Terrorism
Oral Statement............................................... 19
Written Statement............................................ 22
APPENDIX
Submission to the Subcommittee on National Security of the
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, From Sherri
Mandel, Mother of Koby Mandell................................. 48
Submission From Alan Bauer, A Victim and Father of a Victim of
Palestinian Terrorism.......................................... 49
Statement From Mark Sokolow, A Victim of Palestinian Terrorism... 53
Statement of Farley Weiss, President of the National Council of
Young Israel................................................... 55
SEEKING JUSTICE FOR VICTIMS OF PALESTINIAN TERRORISM IN ISRAEL
----------
Tuesday, February 2, 2016
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on National Security,
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:04 p.m., in
Room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ron DeSantis
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives DeSantis, Mica, Lynch, Lieu, and
Kelly.
Also Present: Representative Meadows.
Mr. DeSantis. The Subcommittee on National Security will
come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to
declare a recess at any time. And we do have floor votes
pending. It's just one 15-minute vote. I'm going to give my
opening statement, and if the vote has not been called, then
we'll go with the opening statements of the witnesses. Once the
vote's called, my plan is to just recess the hearing, allow
members to vote, and then come back and reconvene.
Since the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993, more than 64
Americans, including two unborn children, have been murdered by
Palestinian terrorists in Israel and the disputed territories.
Some of them were tourists, some were students, some were
living and working in Israel. Many were Jewish, but some were
not. The stories of these American victims are heart wrenching.
In 1996, Matthew Eisenfeld was a young graduate of Yale
University who was studying abroad in Israel. He and his
girlfriend, Sara Duker from New Jersey, had the misfortune to
ride the number 18 bus that was blown up by Palestinian
terrorists. Matthew's mother, Vicki, later bemoaned the quote,
``lack of justice. It makes me feel like my son's blood is less
American,'' unquote.
In 2002, Americans Dina Carter, Benjamin Blutstein, Marla
Bennett, Janis Coulter, and David Gritz were studying at Hebrew
University in Jerusalem. They were eating in the school
cafeteria when Palestinian terrorists detonated a bomb inside
the cafeteria, killing them all.
Malki Roth was a beautiful and talented 15-year-old girl,
who was eating at the Sbarro Pizza Restaurant on Jaffa Road in
Jerusalem on August 9th, 2001, when a Palestinian suicide
bomber blew himself up. He took 15 civilians with him,
including Malki and another American, Judith Greenbaum, who was
pregnant at the time. The person responsible for planning and
executing this dastardly attack, Ahlam Tamimi, has boasted
about this many times on video, yet, she resides in Jordan and
hosts a television show for Hamas. We are honored to have Mr.
Arnold Roth with us at today's hearing. He has traveled from
Jerusalem, and we are looking forward to hearing his testimony.
So thank you for joining us, sir.
In 2001, Koby Mandell was a 13-year-old American boy who
went on a hike with an Israeli friend, Yosef Ishran. They
didn't come home, and their parents were worried. Their bodies
were later found in a cave. They were so brutally bludgeoned
that dental records were needed to positively identify the
bodies. More than 10 years ago, the memories of American
victims of terrorism, such as Koby and others, provide an
inspiration for a bill bearing Koby's name, which became the
legislative source for the opening of the Office of Justice for
Victims of Overseas Terrorism within the Department of Justice.
The American people overwhelmingly believe that terrorists
who kill Americans abroad must face justice. To this end, the
office was designed with a purpose of ensuring, quote, ``that
the investigation and prosecution of terrorist deaths of
American citizens overseas are a high priority within the
Department of Justice.
The families of the victims of terrorism and their
advocates celebrated the creation of the office in the hope
that justice would be sought and achieved for the victims of
terrorist attacks. Indeed, when commemorating the establishment
of the new office, then-Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez
remarked that it would guarantee, quote, ``A voice for the
victims and their families in the investigation and prosecution
of terrorists who prey on American overseas,'' end quote.
Yet, DOJ has not been able to cite one example for this
committee of even a single terrorist that has been prosecuted
in the United States for any of the 64 attacks against
Americans in Israel. Indeed, many of these terrorists roam free
as a result of prisoner exchanges or evasions. This is not what
Congress intended. This is not what the American people want.
And this does not provide the justice to the victims' families
that has been so tragically elusive.
In fact, the mother of Koby Mandell called the office,
quote, ``an affront to her son's name.'' The case of Ahlam
Tamimi is a good example of the DOJ's failure. She is a
terrorist who helped orchestrate the bombing that killed Malki
Roth and Judith Greenbaum. She was released from an Israeli
prison in 2011 as part of a prisoner exchange with the
Palestine authority, but she's bragged about her conduct and
has maintained a consistent presence on a Hamas television
station, and, yet, this malignant woman continues to roam free,
sowing the seeds of hate.
When the committee questioned the DOJ about this case, the
Department declined to comment. If, in fact, bringing to
justice the perpetrators of terrorism against Americans in
Israel is a high priority for the DOJ, then, surely, people of
this nature should be prosecuted for their crimes.
This afternoon, we will hear from those who might have been
harmed in terrorist attacks or have lost loved ones. I thank
them for their courage to speak out on this important issue. I
also ask unanimous consent to insert into the record statements
from individuals who have been impacted by terrorism. We have
received testimony from Sherri Mandell, mother of Koby Mandell;
Alan Bauer, a victim and father of a victim; and Mark Sokolow,
whose family was in a terrorist attack in 2002, as well as the
National Council of Young Israel. Israel is a magnet for
terrorist attacks because it is a pro-Western Democratic nation
of biblical significance. When Americans are the victims of
terrorist attacks in Israel, they are, in a sense, being
attacked for the shared values that bind our two nations,
values that drive the jihadists to consume themselves in a
culture of hate. We cannot allow the lives of our own American
citizens to be devalued as merely pawns on a diplomatic
chessboard. This effectively excuses the terrorist, invites
more attacks, and leaves lasting scars on our own citizens due
to justice being denied.
I look forward to today's testimony and eagerly await
progress on bringing justice to the American victims of
terrorism in Israel.
And with that, I am going to recess the hearing for 5
minutes. We have 12 minutes left on the clock. I'm going to go
vote. Once we have some other members come back, we will
reconvene. So I thank you for your patience, and I look forward
to reconvening the hearing in about 15 minutes.
The hearing is in recess.
[Recess.]
Mr. DeSantis. The hearing will come to order. We are
reconvened. Sorry about the delay, but we should be able to
finish the hearing without having any more breaks for votes.
I now recognize the ranking member of the Subcommittee on
National Security, Mr. Lynch, for his opening statement.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. You obviously
run a little faster than I do from the last series of votes,
but I would like to thank you for holding this hearing to
examine the assistance to U.S. victims of terrorism abroad. And
I also would like to thank our witnesses here today for your
willingness to help this committee with its work.
Ms. Singer, Mr. Schwartz, and Mr. Roth, I would like to
extend our deepest appreciation on both sides of the aisle for
your testimony here today. And as always, our thoughts and
prayers remain with you and your families for the unimaginable
pain and the loss that you have endured. We also commend you
for your dedication and continued work on behalf of U.S.
victims of overseas terrorism.
In the wake of 9/11, a succession of horrific terrorist
attacks targeting, or affecting U.S. citizens abroad, occurred
around the world. These included devastating bombings and other
violence in Israel that injured and killed Americans, as well
as terrorist attacks in Bali, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan,
and the Philippines. In light of this threat of terrorism
against U.S. citizens abroad, Congress established the Office
of Justice for Victims of Overseas Terrorism in December of
2004 to, quote, ``Ensure that the investigation and prosecution
of deaths of American citizens overseas are a high priority
within the Department of Justice.''
Pursuant to the implementing memorandum issued by U.S.
Attorney Alberto Gonzalez in May of 2005, the Office of Justice
for Victims of Overseas Terrorism, or OVT--I'll try not to use
that acronym--is responsible for monitoring investigations and
prosecutions relating to terrorist attacks against Americans
abroad. The Office of Justice for Victims of Overseas Terrorism
also works with the FBI, United States Attorney General's
offices, and other components within the Department of Justice,
to safeguard the rights of U.S. citizens, victims, and their
families. As noted by then-Attorney Gonzalez, the FBI is the
leading U.S. agency for terrorism investigation involving U.S.
citizens. Department of Justice criminal division, and its 93
U.S. attorneys are primarily in charge of terrorism-related
prosecutions, along with the National Security Division's
effort to combat terrorism.
As evidenced by recent events, the mission of the OVT
remains critical in the face of relentless terrorism plots and
attacks perpetrated by the Islamic State, Hamas, Al Qaeda,
Jabhat al-Nusra, and other terrorist organizations worldwide.
Just last week, I arrived in Istanbul, Turkey, on an oversight
delegation only 4 days after a suicide bombing occurred in the
city's Sultanahmet Square, an area heavily frequented by
international tourists. I had been there previously with my
family, my wife and daughter. And I also traveled to Beirut,
Lebanon, a site of a double suicide bombing in November of 2005
that killed two American citizens and a permanent U.S.
resident.
The U.S. Department of Homeland Security-sponsored national
consortium for the study of terrorism reports that over 100
Americans were killed by terrorists' violence worldwide between
September 11, 2001, and 2014. In addition, the State Department
recently estimated that approximately 7.6 million Americans are
living abroad, more than 70 million Americans travel
internationally every year.
We must make every effort to ensure that U.S. victims of
overseas terrorism and their families are afforded the justice
they deserve. To the this end, it's imperative that we conduct
meaningful oversight of the Department of Justice victims'
assistance process in order to identify additional steps that
we could take to facilitate this important mission.
I would note that Congress recently enacted a bipartisan
omnibus appropriations bill that establishes a new United
States victim of State-sponsored terrorism fund. This fund may
be authorized up to $20 million to certain U.S. victims in the
aftermath of a terrorist attack. Again, we very much appreciate
the opportunity to hear from Ms. Singer, Mr. Schwartz, and Mr.
Roth on your experiences with this process. I will also look
forward to discussing with all of our witnesses how we can
address existing challenges to assisting U.S. victims of
terrorism abroad and their families.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back the balance of
my time.
Mr. DeSantis. I thank the gentleman.
I will hold the record open for 5 legislative days for any
members who would like to submit a written statement. We will
now recognize our panel of witnesses.
I am pleased to welcome Mr. Brad Wiegmann, Deputy Assistant
Attorney General, National Security Division, U.S. Department
of Justice; Ms. Sarri Singer, founder and director of Strength
to Strength, and a victim of terrorism herself; Mr. Peter
Schwartz, uncle to a victim of terrorism; and Mr. Arnold Roth,
father to a victim of terrorism. Welcome to you, all.
Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses will be sworn in
before they testify. Please rise and raise your right hands.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. DeSantis. All witnesses answer in the affirmative;
thank you and please be seated.
In order to allow time for discussion, please limit your
testimony to 5 minutes, or if I talk with some of the
witnesses, please do the best you can. Your entire written
statement will be made part of the record.
Mr. Wiegmann, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
WITNESS STATEMENTS
STATEMENT OF BRAD WIEGMANN
Mr. Wiegmann. Good afternoon, Chairman DeSantis, Ranking
Member Lynch, distinguished members of the committee. I'm very
pleased to be here today to talk about the Department of
Justice's efforts to seek justice for U.S. victims of
Palestinian terrorism in Israel. Protecting Americans from acts
of terrorism, and ensuring that those who commit such acts are
brought to justice, is the Department's highest priority. DOJ's
agents, analysts and prosecutors use every available resource
and appropriate tool to disrupt the terrorist plots and to
investigate and prosecute terrorists. As we perform our
mission, the American victims of terrorism are always foremost
in our thoughts. Our hearts are with them and their families,
relatives, and friends who have endured so much pain and
suffering because of horrific attacks. We will leave no stone
unturned in our efforts to ensure that those responsible for
those attacks are held accountable, no matter where the attack
occurred and no matter how long it takes.
This past year, we brought charges in scores of
international terrorism-related cases reflecting the serious
and diverse terrorist threats that we face today from Al Qaeda
and its affiliates, to ISIL, to home-grown violent extremists,
who are inspired by such groups. For more than 10 years, we've
had an Office of Justice for Victims of Overseas Terrorism. The
mission of OVT is to ensure that where Americans are killed or
injured in terrorist attacks overseas, investigation and
prosecution remain a high priority, and the rights of victims
and their families are honored and respected.
OVT's operational assistance is focused principally on
supporting American victims when cases are tried in foreign
criminal justice systems, as is ordinarily the case in overseas
attacks. Its work complements that of FBI's office for victim
assistance, and the victim witness coordinators and U.S.
Attorney's Offices, which have a more domestic focus. There are
a number of different services OVT provides to victims, and I
would be happy to talk about those in greater detail today. Now
I know this committee is particularly interested in how we
support American victims of Palestinian terrorism in Israel.
Terrorist attacks, unfortunately, are all too common in Israel.
Many Americans have been injured or killed in these attacks,
along with Israeli nationals and others. Seeking to ensure that
justice is done in each and every case in which an American is
harmed is our top priority, whether the attacks occurred in the
United States, in Israel, or anywhere else around the world.
The nationality of the terrorists or the group with which he or
she may be affiliated is not relevant to our interest in the
case.
Over the years, the Department of Justice has brought some
cases against individuals affiliated with Palestinian terrorist
groups. For example, we have prosecuted more than a dozen
individuals associated with Hamas or Palestinian Islamic jihad
for financing or otherwise facilitating terrorist activities or
committing related offenses. We have also prosecuted Palestine
terrorists who engaged in attacks that killed or injured
Americans outside of Israel. Now to be sure, these cases do not
involve any of the recent attacks within Israel, but they do
evidence the Department's commitment to investigating and
prosecuting terrorist activities by Palestinian terror groups
where possible.
The Department of Justice also has a number of open
investigations regarding overseas terrorist attacks committed
in Israel and in other countries that have harmed Americans.
While I cannot discuss these investigations today or the
facts of specific cases, it's important to note that the
absence of public charges associated with a particular overseas
attack does not mean that there are no charges or that no such
charges will be brought.
A successful U.S. prosecution can occur and has occurred
many years after an attack, and after an individual is released
from a foreign prison. Of course, a U.S. prosecution is not the
only way a terrorist can be brought to justice, nor is it the
only means by which to protect our national security. Often, a
foreign prosecution is the best or only available option. And
if so, we work with foreign authorities to support such
prosecutions as necessary.
Israeli authorities have successfully investigated and
prosecuted many individuals in connection with terrorist
attacks that have harmed Americans. Some of these terrorists
have been sentenced to multiple life sentences or extensive
jail time in Israeli prisons. Sometimes Israeli authorities
have pursued a military response, rather than, or in addition
to, a prosecution, and the terrorists have been killed. It is
to be expected that Israel will ordinarily take the lead in
investigating and prosecuting terrorist attacks against its
nationals that occur on its territory, just as we do here in
the United States and as many other countries do.
The Department of Justice has provided support and
assistance to scores of Americans victimized by terrorism in
Israel in cases investigated and prosecuted by Israeli
authorities. OVT provides information to victims about their
rights in the Israeli criminal and military justice systems and
the charges, hearing dates, verdicts, and sentences in such
cases. We have provided financial and logistical support for
victims living in the United States to travel to Israel to
attend court proceedings.
Our staff has also accompanied victims to court in Israel
to assist them in their participation. We also coordinate a
program that has enabled U.S. victims of attacks in Israeli to
obtain reimbursement for out-of-pocket expenses associated with
the attacks.
Now the fact that foreign governments most often prosecute
terrorist activities that occur in their countries does not
mean the Department of Justice does not also pursue such cases.
We do and we have successfully done so many times. But there
are often significant impediments to bringing prosecutions in
the United States for attacks that occur overseas. These
obstacles include obtaining necessary cooperation from foreign
governments, gathering evidence overseas that would be
admissible in U.S. court, and apprehending and extraditing
defendants. I would be happy to discuss some of these
challenges that we may confront in these cases today.
In closing, I can certainly understand the frustration of
some of the families that the Department of Justice has not
prosecuted more cases involving terrorist attacks against
Americans in Israel. And we certainly share the concern about
Israel's recent releases of the prisoners who harmed Americans,
a step the United States urged Israel not to take. The
Department is committed to making every effort to bring
appropriate charges against those released prisoners who are
responsible for attacks in Israel that included American
victims. So I'll stop there. And I look forward to your
questions.
Mr. DeSantis. I thank the gentleman.
The chair now recognizes Ms. Singer. You're up for 5
minutes.
STATEMENT OF SARRI SINGER
Ms. Singer. Thank you. Chairman DeSantis, Ranking Member
Lynch, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you
for inviting me to testify today and share with you my personal
story, which is a story of thousands of Americans, people
living in Israel and around the globe who have felt the brutal
impact of Islamic terrorism.
My name is Sarri Singer. I'm the founder and director of
Strength to Strength, and I'm the daughter of New Jersey State
Senator, Robert Singer. I was taught that the little things in
life make the biggest difference, but I never understood the
impact of the most minute details; a missed bus, seconds shaved
off a marathon, a seat change, even a blink of an eye.
I sit before you today as a survivor of a terrorist attack
because of a series of split-second decisions that left 16
people dead and many others injured, including myself. When a
terrorist attack occurs, the smallest details determine the
outcome of everyone within range, and it's those stated moments
that haunt victims for the rest of their lives.
September 11, 2001 was a turning point for me. I worked
near the World Trade Center, but overslept that morning. While
my colleagues are running for their lives, I was uptown
watching the Towers burn and the murder of thousands of
Americans on television. Within 3 months, I quit my job and
moved to Israel and volunteered with organizations assisting
victims of terrorism.
My personal 9/11 came on June 11, 2003, the day I boarded
bus number 14 in Jerusalem, and barely escaped with my life. It
is now 12-1/2 years since that horrific attack, and the
memories are still fresh in my mind. When I close my eyes, I am
brought back to that day and shudder as my mind wanders into
the alternate endings, each scenario increasingly terrifying. I
was meeting a friend for dinner and boarded the bus. I chose an
empty seat by the window. I always preferred the aisle seat,
but that day I didn't and I lived. The woman in the aisle seat
next to me did not.
I remember the sounds of crushing metals and the shock
waves as the explosion tore through the bus. I remember
shutting my eyes, an instinct which saved my sight. I remember
the moment of silence that followed the blast, a silence so
frightening, the silence of those who were dead in every seat
around me. I screamed. I screamed so loud that a stranger who
had heard the blast from three blocks away ran toward the
mangled burning bus and pulled me out.
I will never forget the old woman who held me as I was
burned, bleeding, and frightened. I will never forget the
kindness and love that was shown to me by those I had known my
entire life and by those whom I had never met.
My injuries were extensive, shrapnel went through my left
shoulder, breaking my clavicle bone. Both my eardrums were
blown from the impact of the blast. My hair was burned, my face
was bruised, my legs badly cut, and I have shrapnel in my mouth
that is inoperable that will remain with me the rest of my
life. Days after the attack, I was told that the terrorist was
two people away from me, and all those seated and standing
around me were killed on impact. A busload of innocent
civilians boarded the bus that day, and a suicide bomber
injured over 100 of us and murdered 16 innocent people,
including American citizen Alan Beer, originally from
Cleveland, Ohio.
An attack happens in an instant, but the impact lasts a
lifetime. I established the organization Strength to Strength
to create a support environment for victims, both survivors and
bereaved family members. We are part of a global network
bringing victims of terrorism together, working with
organizations in various countries coming from different
backgrounds and religions.
It's difficult to find anything positive or any semblance
of meaning in an act of terror. The act of maiming or murdering
another person to support a political or religious agenda is
not one that I will ever understand. We must do everything to
make sure no more lives are ruined by terror, and we must
remember that victims need support from their family, friends,
community, and especially their government.
While the physical injures I endured were difficult,
nothing compares to long-term psychological impact. Finding
justice is something that is vital in dealing with the long-
term impact of what I and others have been through. In 2004,
Congress passed the Koby Mandell Act, which funded a special
office within the U.S. Department of Justice to advocate on
behalf of American victims of terrorism and tasked them with
not only helping families with various expenses resulting from
terrorist attacks, but to actively investigate those crimes and
help bring the perpetrators to justice.
While the office has been responsive in helping families
with the former, and the civil servants who work at the Office
of Justice for Victims of Overseas Terrorism undoubtedly have
good intentions, Congress' hope that the Department of Justice
would take an active role in investigating, extraditing, and
prosecuting terrorists who kill Americans overseas has come up
against a harsh reality.
Since Congress passed the Koby Mandell Act, the only
serious counterterrorism effort I see relating to my terrorist
attack and dozens like it has come from two private civil suits
I joined against Arab Bank of Jordan, and National Westminster
Bank in Britain. The case brought against Arab Bank led
directly to a regulatory investigation by the U.S. Treasury
Department of Arab Bank's New York branch, and culminated in a
jury verdict in 2014, finding the bank liable for 24 Hamas
terrorist attacks, including the terrorist attack that injured
me.
The case against Nat West Bank is still pending, but it
already has resulted in the bank closing the accounts of a U.S.
specially designated global terrorist, Interpal, whose accounts
remain active for years, despite U.S. diplomatic efforts.
I don't expect perfect justice, and I fully realize that
the Federal Government cannot bring every terrorist to justice,
but the government's track records in extraditing or even
seeking extradition of Palestinian terrorists who have murdered
American citizens is nonexistent.
One example is Ahmed Mustafa Saleh Hamed, part of a Hamas
cell that murdered American Howard Goldstein in June 2003, who
was sentenced to seven life sentences by Israel. He was
released from the prisoner--from prison as part of the Gilad
Shalit prisoner exchange. He has since been linked by Israeli
authorities to a fatal June 29, 2015, attack in Israel.
I love my country. America has always been a great country
that has created a safe haven for citizens and refugees. I grew
up believing that my country would be there for me and protect
me no matter where I was in the world. These last years have
left me feeling let down, and I want to believe, again, the way
I always did that my country is protecting me and not the
people who sent a teenager, strapped up with a bomb to blow me
up.
Please, for all of us who have had our lives disrupted,
restore our faith that our government is on our side. In
closing, thank you, Chairman DeSantis, for making this hearing
a priority and being a voice for so many American victims of
Palestinian terrorism. Thank you for standing up for us and
making sure that we know we're not alone and that we're not
forgotten. Thank you.
[Prepared statement of Ms. Singer follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. DeSantis. Thank you.
Mr. Schwartz, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF PETER SCHWARTZ
Mr. Schwartz. Thank you, Chairman DeSantis, Ranking Member
Lynch, and members of the subcommittee, for holding this
hearing and for allowing me to testify.
My name is Peter Schwartz, and I am the proud uncle of Ezra
Schwartz of Sharon, Massachusetts. Ezra was a sweet and fun-
loving kid. He was a great skier and baseball player and an
avid football fan. He had a sharp mind, was a strong chess
player and enjoyed reading. He had a special talent for
engaging those on the margins or in need. The nervous young
camper, the mediocre athlete at the baseball tryout, the
elderly woman carrying groceries. Ezra graduated high school
and had been accepted to the business program at Rutgers, which
he was excited to attend this fall. But he decided to take a
gap year in Israel in a program that mixed learning with
community service.
He was popular and happy, enjoying his year, doing good
work, and looking forward to college. On November 19, 2015,
just over 2 months ago, Ezra and some friends went to do some
volunteer work on a memorial park that ironically honored the
memories of three boys who were kidnapped and killed by a
Palestinian terrorist the year before. One of whom, Naftali
Frankel, was an American citizen. The van that Ezra and his
friends were in was caught in rush-hour traffic at the Gush
Etzion Junction just south of Jerusalem. And at some point,
Ezra put his head down against the window and went to sleep.
Muhammed Abd Al-Basset Kharoub, a 21-year-old Palestinian
from a small West Bank village, spent at least two years
planning and preparing to kill as many Jews as possible. With
the assistance of his brothers, and at least one friend,
Kharoub purchased two guns and many rounds of ammunition for
over $10,000. Kharoub chose his own birthday, November 19th, to
go searching for a place with enough Jews to kill.
When he arrived at the Gush Etzion traffic jam in which
Ezra and his friends were stuck, he took out his gun and
started spraying the waiting cars with bullets, killing three
people, including Ezra, before being apprehended. Ezra was shot
in the head, and in an instant, all of the beautiful things
that he was and everything that he would ever become was gone
forever. It is simply not possible to describe the magnitude of
this loss and the impact it has had on our family without
sounding cliche, but it is excruciating and profound and
overwhelming and visceral. His absence assaults you from every
direction: From his sweet face staring at you from the family
photos on the wall, from his name on the label of the skiing
and sporting equipment sitting unused in the closet, from his
adorable first grade artwork, from the empty seat at the table,
from the birthday text that never arrives, and even from the
happy milestones of his friends and peers, whose future
graduations and weddings will be tinged with a little bit of
sadness knowing that Ezra won't be there to share them, and
won't have similar milestones of his own, but will be forever
frozen at 18 years old. All of us in the family now have an
awful highlight reel playing over and over in our heads.
For me, it includes getting the news from my brother,
telling my son that his cousin is dead, telling my parents that
their grandson is dead, seeing Ezra's siblings and parents
around his coffin, and seeing my brother, who I love so dearly
and unconditionally, in unimaginable pain that I can never
comfort. And then you remember that all this terrible pain and
loss is not the result of some tragic accident or unfortunate
illness, but rather, it was a deliberate and premeditated act
by someone who dreamed of causing this suffering.
Our family has tried to focus on Ezra's wonderful but all-
too brief life, and has a void awaiting the surrounding
politics, but there's nothing political or controversial about
saying that the deliberate killing of innocent civilians for
ideological, political, or religious reason is abhorrent and
inhuman, and it is just as wrong in Israel or in Gush Etzion,
as it is in Paris or Mali or London or lower Manhattan. There
is no context or explanation that makes Ezra's murder or
Palestine terrorism any bit less repugnant than any other
terrorism in any other place, and there is no reason that it
should warrant any less condemnation or reaction from every
civilized citizen or country on earth. In fact, the need for a
strong U.S. response to terrorism in Israel is even greater,
considering how many Americans live, study, and travel there,
that it is such a frequent, and now literally daily target of
terrorists, and that it is our strongest ally in the Middle
East, and the only one with which we share fundamental values
like religious tolerance and democracy.
Since Ezra's death, the U.S. Government has been extremely
supportive of our family. Condolence calls from President Obama
and Secretary of State Kerry were deeply meaningful and
appreciated and representatives of OVT, ITVERP, and the FBI
have been in touch and sympathetic.
That said, we are not aware of what, if any, U.S. actions
have been undertaken to investigate this case, and we still
have many unanswered questions about the attack that claimed
Ezra's life and what role our government can play in answering
them. For example, how did a 21-year-old Palestinian from a
small West Bank village obtain more than $10,000 to purchase
firearms and ammunition? Did Kharoub receive funding from
outside groups, such as Hamas or Islamic jihad? Will others,
including Kharoub'sbrothers, one of whom supplied him with the
car he used in the attack, be charged as accomplices in the
case?
It is our hope that FBI and the legal team at OVT will take
an active interest in this case and work with their Israeli
counterparts to answer these questions and ensure that Mr.
Kharoub, his accomplices, and other terrorists who harm
Americans abroad face justice, and when convicted, remain
behind bars.
Thank you for this opportunity and for all that you do to
support and protect U.S. citizens and their families in Israel
and around the world.
[Prepared statement of Mr. Schwartz follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. DeSantis. Thank you, Mr. Schwartz.
Mr. Roth, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF ARNOLD ROTH
Mr. Roth. Chairman DeSantis, Ranking Member Lynch,
distinguished members of the committee, and staff of the
committee, I admire the ability you have to call an event like
this and to project the message that things can be done. It is
the antithesis of the feelings that people like me, people who
are the parents of a child who has been murdered, or the
partner of a loved one whose life has been stolen from us
filled, because nothing is more disempowering and shattering
and silencing than being the survivor of an act of terrorism
directed at people who you love. I was reminded at just how
that power works driving here. I am not a frequent visitor to
Washington, but I was in a cab that went through the Mall, and
we passed a memorial. It's a memorial, as it happens, to World
War II, but it makes material and concrete the reality that
behind all of those numbers and those ciphers and those
tombstones, they were lives and people. It's a sense that has
been cheated from us.
If terrorism has any overriding goal, it is to
depersonalize and to anonymize, and to turn into statistics
both the victims and the people who lived with and loved those
victims.
And I appreciate the opportunity that this hearing presents
to push back and to say what is on the minds of victims like
me. There are thousands of us. We seek, by every possible
means, to do something that is so difficult to explain that I
can only throw the words at you, to reassert the humanity of
the people whose lives have been stolen by the cruel
terrorists. In this case, my daughter, Malki. I'm not going to
spend any time here telling you what a wonderful life she
lived, and what a beautiful person she was, and how much good
she brought into the world and how empty and silent is the void
that she left behind her.
But I am going to say that having stolen that life, the
terrorists have left us, the families and the loved ones, no
choice but to do everything we possibly can to associate the
memory of that wonderful life with things that are good. And
I'm struck by the reality, as I look around the other victims,
other victims' families in Israel where I live, how
energetically they pursue the doing of good things, perhaps the
erection of a shelf for books, perhaps a shelter at a bus stop,
perhaps a foundation like the one that my wife and I set up
that helps people who have a disabled child.
You see actions like this are going on all the time. They
are not intended to draw attention to the people that are
living them; they are intended to draw attention to the lives
that are being so unfairly stolen. And with the image of Malki,
my daughter, who was fifteen, right before my eyes, as I say
these words to you, I realize that I want you to know that I am
never going to be, again, able to talk about terrorism in the
way perhaps that others can. I see things; my wife sees things;
my children see things that somehow the people who report about
terrorism and the people who prosecute the terrorists probably
never see. There are resonances and absences and failures to do
things that choke us.
I don't remember thinking those thoughts until I had to
wake up one morning and see my daughter's slippers next to the
bed that she was never going to be sleeping in again.
When I put together my written submission, which I hope
will be read, I felt that I needed to speak about practical
things that this committee could do. And they came down to
wanting you to be aware of the incitement and the enablement,
two key words which may be not self-evident, the incitement
that goes on day after day to anyone who has eyes and ears, by
the Palestine Arab society with which we are striving to live
in peace, and which, to a great extent, is folded into the
society in which I and my family live.
The incitement that comes from the very highest levels of
that society, right down to ordinary Tweets emanating from
people who live in that society. Their hatred, the urging on to
more and bigger and better acts of terrorism, is simply
unbearable. And as long as it goes on, and it does go on, we're
wasting our time and our prayers in hoping that these problems
will go away, they will not go away.
Likewise, the enablement. Enablement has to do with money,
and money is where Washington comes into the picture. When a
person is sentenced to prison, and then comes out after,
perhaps, many years, life is pretty difficult. You have
problems re-emerging into society and you probably don't have
any money. It's hard for me to convey to you how untrue that is
in the case of thousands of Palestinian Arab-convicted
terrorists. Of course, I'm thinking about the people, the gang
who were involved in the murder of my daughter.
And I'm also thinking, in particular, of the engineer of
the massacre, who was a young woman, who has been mentioned
here in the chairman's thoughtful introductory words.
These people have come out with more money than they have
ever had in their lives. They have come out with a more exalted
position in society than they ever dreamed of. If any of us
imagine that the process that produces those results is
conducive to bringing an end to this death cult, this
engagement with murder has a redemptive act, then think more
carefully.
In relation to the work that's been done by the DOJ, I've
made the point several times in my written remarks that there
has been unfailing courtesy, responsiveness, and attention, but
very little in the way of results. I could make the statement
stronger, but I choose not to.
This is not a human material problem; this is not a
goodwill problem, but there is a problem. It's clear that
there's a problem. It's not clear where the problem is coming
from. If this committee does anything, and I know that there is
a desire to do something, let it be to focus on where the
problem is.
Should the OVT or the DOJ address these issues of
incitement and enablement and the particularly bizarre way in
which the word ``terrorism'' has been removed from the lexicon
of many of the people engaged in looking at terrorism, trying
to stop terrorism. Euphemisms are being used as if they were
machine guns, but they are not machine guns, but they do make
people lose focus. In some ways, they are the real enemy here.
Terror is now a legitimate career option for hundreds of
thousands of people living on the other side of the boundary
from where I live. Unless we engage with that issue and
recognize where it's brought us, not much is going to happen. I
don't know why the kingdom of Jordan continues to appear at the
very top of the State Department's survey on terrorism as
America's close ally. I don't know why that is. I don't know
why people who haven't lost a child don't see how far away,
which is not very far away, everybody here, in my country, in
Australia, in New Zealand, wherever, are from experiencing the
kind of unthinkable loss that has turned my family's life
upside down.
I am sorry that I have gone on beyond the time. I want to
mention very briefly something that President Obama said last
week on the day that this meeting was supposed to take place,
on the 27th of January. He did something that was startling to
me. He quoted a Hebrew expression, which is, of course, is
taken from the Bible. In the course of speaking at the Israeli
Embassy on Holocaust Memorial Day, he used the expression,
Tzedek, Tzedek, Tirdorf. Three words, Tzedek, Tzedek, Tirdorf.
``Tzedek'' is the Hebrew word for justice. It's also the Hebrew
word for righteousness. And it's repeated twice in that
sentence in Deuteronomy 16.
Tzedek, justice, cannot be done in a vacuum. Justice
requires it to be done in a righteous fashion, doing it right
is how we ensure that all of us, not just the victims, but all
of us can continue to live and exist as coherent and
constructive communities and societies.
I can't explain why the OVT's record is what it is, but I
do urge everyone, including the key people inside the OVT, to
look carefully, look carefully into their hearts to see whether
justice is being done and whether it's justice, justice, as the
biblical phrase says, justice, justice, thou shall pursue.
Thank you very much.
[Prepared statement of Mr. Roth follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. DeSantis. Well, I thank the gentleman and I think the
witness statements were excellent. I really appreciate you guys
coming here, and I think that anybody watching this, you know,
I think it was very, very powerful, and we appreciate it.
Mr. Wiegmann, the committee has counted that since '93, at
least 64 Americans have been killed, as well as two unborn
children, and 91 have been wounded by terrorists in Israel in
disputed territories.
How many terrorists who have killed or wounded Americans in
Israel or disputed territories has the United States indicted,
extradited, or prosecuted during this time period?
Mr. Wiegmann. I think the answer is--is none.
Mr. DeSantis. Okay. How many terrorists who have killed or
wounded Americans anywhere else overseas has the United States
indicted, extradited, or prosecuted?
Mr. Wiegmann. I don't have an exact figure for you.
Mr. DeSantis. But it would be a decent size number, though,
correct?
Mr. Wiegmann. It would be a significant number, yes.
Mr. DeSantis. Okay. Does the DOJ plan to prosecute any of
the terrorism cases committed by Palestinian terrorism and
Israel in the disputed territories?
Mr. Wiegmann. So we have a number of open investigations. I
can't comment further on the status of the investigations.
Mr. DeSantis. Do you know how many, though?
Mr. Wiegmann. I can't give you that number.
Mr. DeSantis. Why not?
Mr. Wiegmann. I don't have the number, and I don't think we
want to comment exactly, because the more we say about the
number of investigations we have, the more we tell the bad guys
who we are trying to get.
Mr. DeSantis. I get the ongoing investigation. I think we
would like a sense of whether this is a substantial effort or
not. And so, you know, maybe you don't give us an exact number,
but we want to know that progress is being made.
In your opening statement, you said that these
prosecutions, when Americans are killed by terrorists overseas,
including in Israel, that that was the highest priority, and
that there should be no stone left unturned. And I understand
when you're talking about foreign jurisdictions, and you
alluded to some of the issues that arise, and I think that
point is well taken. But when it's zero for 64, I think you see
some people, who have been affected negatively, wonder, you
know, what exactly is the Department doing within this
particular aspect of terrorism that occurs in Israel?
And let me ask you, particularly: Mr. Roth alluded to
engineer of the terrorist attack that killed his daughter. This
is an individual who really is, since being released in a
prisoner exchange, has been open and notorious, is on TV with
Hamas. Is that something that the Department is monitoring? And
is there any plans to try to seek justice in that case?
Mr. Wiegmann. So let me address that. I think the Tamimi
case is the case you're referring to. And she, along with two
others, I think, were prosecuted originally by the Israelis. As
I said in my opening statement, most of the cases that occur in
Israel are prosecuted in the Israeli system. And so she was
sentenced to a long prison term. She was then released in 2011
in conjunction with the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange. This is
something that we opposed. We advised the Israeli Government
that we opposed this release, but they did that anyway. They
are a sovereign government. We couldn't block that.
Since that time, we have made clear that we intend to
pursue any available charge that we can, either in this case
and all the other cases involving released prisoners. That was
really a kind of game changer for us, the prisoner release, and
we are really concerned about all of those folks that have
American victims on their hands----
Mr. DeSantis. I think so.
Mr. Wiegmann. --so absolutely we are pursuing all those
cases, including that one.
Mr. DeSantis. And I appreciate that. Senator Inhofe, in
2012, wrote and requested the status, and basically, we were in
the same holding pattern. So I appreciate those words. But I
think, as Mr. Roth said, when OVT was created, the idea was
you're going to help the victims and then hopefully, facilitate
within the DOJ that these prosecutions are happening, and they
are not.
Now, it's- been alleged that the reason that DOJ does not
prosecute the Palestinian terrorists who harm Americans in
Israel, the disputed territories, is that the Department of
Justice is concerned that such prosecutions will harm efforts
to promote the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, or that it
will actually harm the Palestinian Authority.
So let me ask you straight up, is that a consideration the
Department of Justice?
Mr. Wiegmann. I can assure that is obsoletely not the case.
Mr. DeSantis. And has the State Department ever made
arguments to the Department of Justice to handle some of the
Palestinian terrorism cases differently than you may normally
handle, say, a terrorism case in Asia?
Mr. Wiegmann. Absolutely not. The State Department has
nothing to say about cases that we bring, whether in
Palestinian territories related to these cases or not. So it
absolutely makes zero difference to us whether the terrorist
attack occurred in Israel, whether it's a Palestinian terrorist
group, whether it's ISIL, Al Qaeda, they are all the same to
us. We want to protect Americans regardless of who they are
victimized by.
Mr. DeSantis. So you mentioned the 2011 prisoner releases
that included terrorists who harmed Americans. Now, when that
was undertaken, you said the administration opposed it. Did the
State Department work with Israel to maybe seek extradition of
any of the people would were being released against our wishes?
Mr. Wiegmann. So, again, I can't comment on any particular
investigation. But what I can say is that since that prisoner
release, we have kind of redoubled our efforts on those
investigations. We are working really hard with the Israelis.
We have gotten increased cooperation from the Israeli
Government since those releases. And to the extent that we can
bring charges in any of those cases, we intend to do so.
Again, I would caution the committee not to assume that
because, as I said in my opening statement, that we don't have
any public charges doesn't necessarily----
Mr. DeSantis. No, I don't think we do assume that. I just
think it has been a long--you know, this has been something
that's been going on for a long time. And I think there's a lot
of concern, understandable concern, about the lack of results.
And so that is really what we are focused on is the results.
Now, some have said that if you have a situation where a
terrorist who kills Americans in Israel is prosecuted by the
Israelis, then they are later released in a prisoner exchange
or release, that somehow if we were to prosecute them here,
that would trigger double jeopardy. Is that the Department's
position?
Mr. Wiegmann. Absolutely not. We have prosecuted people who
have been released from prison before. Sometimes it takes us a
while. One prominent case is an older case, actually a case
involving a Palestinian terrorist who hijacked an airliner in
Pakistan. He spent, I think, 8 to 10 years in a Pakistani
prison. Then he was released, made his way to another country,
and was, I think, more, 10, 12, 15 years later that we were
able finally to apprehend the person, prosecuted him in 2004,
and he's got a 60-year sentence today.
So we have prosecuted people who have been released from
prison before, and certainly, nothing in the Israeli prison
release would be any different. We fully intend to pursue
charges in any of those cases if we can.
Mr. DeSantis. Let me just conclude by asking, and I
realize, I mean, you are here representing the Department, the
Koby Mandell and the OVT. This was all over 10 years ago. We've
had different administrations, different parties, we've had
Congress, different parties, and so it's been a-- it's not that
there's one person to blame, but when you see that zero cases
have been brought, and you see the victims of terrorism, their
families seeking justice, do you understand the frustration
without seeing any tangible results, even understanding that
some of these cases are very difficult?
Mr. Wiegmann. I certainly understand the impatience and
frustrations. The only thing I can say are the reasons are, in
some of those 64 cases they talked about, there were Israeli
prosecutions, and Israel is a very capable and effective and
aggressive prosecution regime, so a lot of those cases,
prosecutions were brought by the Israelis, and that's the same
as we would do here. I mean, we have had foreign nationals
injured in terrorist attacks here, whether it's 9/11 attacks,
or the Boston Marathon bombing. There were foreign nationals in
both of those attacks who were killed and injured. Those
attacks are going to be prosecuted in the United States.
The foreign governments, we try to work with them, give
them information and so forth about the case, but the same is
true in Israel. The Paris bombing was prosecuted, or will be
pursued, investigated by the French, because it is on their
territory. There was an American killed in that attack. So I
totally get it. I understand the frustration and impatience of
the victims, but, in general, those terrorism cases around the
world are prosecuted where they occur. That doesn't mean that
we don't try to bring extraterritorial cases when we can, but
there are some really tough issues in bringing these cases. As
I mentioned in my opening, we have to have the cooperation----
Mr. DeSantis. I appreciate all that, but, you know, the
tough issues, you have to confront this. When you say leave no
stone unturned, that means you have to deal with them head on.
So I appreciate you being here. I've gone over, and so let me
recognize the ranking member, Mr. Lynch.
Mr. Lynch. I want to thank the witnesses for your
testimony. Indeed, heartbreaking and very, very powerful. I
want to go through, Mr. Wiegmann, the procedure that has to be
followed. I also serve as the top Democrat on the Task Force on
Terrorism Financing, so I spent a lot of time in the Middle
East, in Pakistan, a lot of time in Israel, a fair amount of
time. I just came back last week from Lebanon, the Syrian
border, Turkey, Jordan. And part of our efforts there are to,
on the terrorist financing pieces, to take the power away from
these terrorist groups to try to deny them the resources that
they use to perpetrate these terrorist acts, and to deny them
access to the legitimate financial system.
I'm also very familiar with the previous terrorist attacks,
Khobar Towers, Nairobi, Dara Salaam, the multiple attacks in
Karachi, Pakistan, and Islamabad, obviously several attacks in
Beirut.
Mr. Wiegmann, if there is an attack in a foreign country on
U.S. citizens--I think you've said this before--in the first
instance, the prosecution is solely--let's back up a little
bit. In all of those cases that I just mentioned, to my
knowledge, it was the FBI that goes in first. Is that correct?
Are they the lead agency for the United States?
Mr. Wiegmann. For the United States they are, but obviously
if it's an attack overseas, the real leader is the government
of the place----
Mr. Lynch. No, no, I realize that.
Mr. Wiegmann. The FBI, yes.
Mr. Lynch. The lead agency for us?
Mr. Wiegmann. Yes, absolutely.
Mr. Lynch. And in the first instance, our role in terms of
assisting any prosecution by the host country, and as you said,
the Israelis handle it. The Lebanese handle it. The Kenyans
handle it. It is an investigation that is by the host country,
and we're allowed to assist. Is that how it normally goes?
Mr. Wiegmann. Yes. In many cases, we do provide assistance
if we have information that is relevant to the attack or we can
provide, we sometimes are helping with the victims actually
provide information what they have on the attacks.
So, yes, there's ways that we can assist, and we do.
Sometimes it's just helping them in their own investigative
techniques, so there's a lot of cases in which we provide
support. The other more capable governments, it's less likely
that we would provide assistance, because they're already quite
capable on their own. So it really depends on the country.
Mr. Lynch. Okay. Are there any opportunities for us to have
shared prosecution agreements or something like that, or a
treaty in place where we can actually, you know, get in
initially with the investigation and sort of expedite and
enhance the prosecutions in foreign countries? Do we have
anything like that?
Mr. Wiegmann. It really depends on the country and the
facts of the case. There's some cases, let's say an African
country. You mentioned Kenya and Uganda, I know. There are
cases where they really need our help. They're not used to
doing complex counterterrorism classifications. We send FBI
teams in very early, and prosecutors as well, to help
investigate the case, and we're there at a very early stage. In
contrast in another case, let's say it's an attack in France,
they already have a very sophisticated cadre of investigators
and prosecutors. We typically would provide information, but,
say, electronic information on accounts that terrorists may
have been using or things like that, and we provide assistance,
but it's not the same level of support that we provide in a
less developed country.
Mr. Lynch. How--and I know this is probably country-
specific, but what is the experience that you've had in terms
of getting cooperation from some of the host countries where an
attack has occurred involving a U.S. citizen?
Mr. Wiegmann. So, again, it's really all over the map. Some
countries really welcome our cooperation and ask for it. Other
countries are not as cooperative and won't give us information,
won't allow us in on the ground, won't allow us to go in and
interview witnesses or do anything like that, so it really runs
the gamut.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Schwartz' testimony highlights the balance
of understanding the sensitive nature of investigations and
intelligence gathering on the one hand, but also on the other,
the victims and families deserve answers to the questions, so
you can see how this is tremendously frustrating to families in
this case, and also all those who are similarly situated, and
there are hundreds. I'd like to get your comment on it,
particularly given that your division, the National Security
Division, not only oversees OVT, but also is more generally
responsible for enhancing law enforcement and intelligence
efforts to combat international terrorism. How do we divide
those priorities in terms of trying to inform the families, but
also dealing with maybe sensitive issues with the host
countries?
Mr. Wiegmann. So we have an obligation, and it's our
mission anyway to give the families as much information as
possible about the status of the investigations to the extent
we can do so without interfering with or impeding those
investigations. So that's one of the main functions of our
office for victims, is to keep the victims apprised of the
status of investigations. We have lots of meetings with
victims, their families, to tell them what's going on. There
are limits sometimes as to how much we can say, but we say a
lot more than we can say publicly. We can develop confidential
relationships with the victims and can share quite a bit of
information with them.
We try to obtain information if it's a case that's being
prosecuted overseas from the foreign government in a way the
victim might not be able to, and share that information to the
extent that we can as well. The victims actually have statutory
rights to be informed to the extent possible, and we try to
maximize that to the extent that we can. There are some limits
to what we can say, because we don't want to jeopardize the
case in any particular case, but we do try to share as much as
we can.
Mr. Lynch. Is there anything that Congress can do? Do you
feel that you're inhibited, in any way, by statutory provisions
that we have put in place that could be mitigated in order to
help you be more cooperative with victims' families?
Mr. Wiegmann. I don't think so. I feel like our office
does, we can always use more resources. We have a small office,
so there's always more that could be done in theory, but I
don't think there are any legal prohibitions on our
relationship with the victims.
Mr. Lynch. My time is expired, and I yield back.
Mr. DeSantis. The gentleman yields back. The chair notes
the presence of the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Meadows,
a member of the full committee, and without objection, Mr.
Meadows is welcome to fully participate in today's hearing.
Without objection, it's so ordered. And that being done, the
chair now recognizes the gentleman from North Carolina for 5
minutes.
Mr. Meadows. Mr. Chairman, I want to say thank you for
holding this hearing, and, obviously, it is critical, and it's
the reason why I made it a priority to be here, not only to
support your efforts, but I know that you have followed very
closely not only the conflict that is going on in the Middle
East and the terrorism threat, but fully bringing justice to
the victims. And so I want to just say thank you.
Mr. Wiegmann, my concern, Winston Churchill has one of my
favorite quotes, and it is, ``No matter how beautiful the
strategy, we must occasionally look at the results.'' And the
results are not encouraging. In fact, when you were talking
about how your office helps the victims, I watched people, and
many of the people at your table were rolling their eyes and
not agreeing with your premise on helping and keeping them
informed.
So I guess one of the questions I have for you is I know
there are a number of services that are out there in terms of
helping victims' families, whether it's travel or counseling or
any of those things. Are those all available to victims'
families?
Mr. Wiegmann. I know one program that we operate is called
the International Terrorism Victims Expense Reimbursement
Program, so that's a program to reimburse families for----
Mr. Meadows. But there's multiple agencies. You kind of
become the point of contact for these families. So, Mr.
Schwartz, have they reached out to you to let you know all of
those?
Mr. Schwartz. I have been in contact, and we have been
contacted. Who made the initial contacts and sort of who
reached out to who, we were fortunate to have sources of
information from many different directions. But, you know, I
would echo Mr. Roth that there's been no shortage of sympathy
and accessibility of resources for us.
Mr. Meadows. But not a whole lot in terms of results from a
prosecution standpoint?
Mr. Schwartz. Certainly not results, but it has been very
early, and there's been some effort to keep us apprised. But if
there is any American involvement with the investigation,
we're, as yet, unaware of that.
Mr. Meadows. So, Mr. Wiegmann, let's talk to that because
my wife and I just recently got back from Israel. One of the
most chilling things that I think I sat in a courtroom in
Israel where six terrorists were being tried. They had a Hamas-
paid attorney, had six of them in leg irons. Several were
committed to ISIS. Several were committed to Hamas. And with
pride, almost like they were turning in a paper on a job well
done, they were smiling and joking with their family in the
courtroom. I made a commitment at that particular time to say
that not only do we have to bring justice, but we have to bring
it quickly.
And so, I guess the question I have is, knowing that
there's the pride of these terrorists and many of them feel
like that they get off so easily, why are the Israelis better
at bringing them to court than we are here in the United
States? Is it a lack of resources? Because if it is, you need
to speak up now.
Mr. Wiegmann. I wouldn't say it's a lack of resources. It's
just they're the ones on the ground who are, let's say an
attack occurs in Jerusalem; they're the ones going to the
scene. They're collecting the forensic information in a way
that they would do that in Israel, but may not be the way we
would have to do it in the United States to ensure that they're
admitted in a U.S. court.
Mr. Meadows. So they're not coordinating with you properly.
Is that--because, I mean, I'll reach out to the Israeli
Government if that's the----
Mr. Wiegmann. So the typical case that might be five or six
Israelis are killed, and then one American is killed, and
perhaps a Palestinian or someone from a third country, the
Israelis are going to take the lead in that country. They're
not going to, in general, have multiple, multi-country
investigations. Right at the very initial stage, they probably
haven't even identified the nationalities of the victims at
stake, much less have a chance to contact the foreign
governments and get them involved.
So they're going to, just as we would do here in the United
States in investigating a case, the FBI is going to do the
investigation. It's not going to be promptly inviting in--for
example, in the Boston Marathon bombing, there was a Chinese
national that was killed. We're not going to be inviting the
Chinese Government in to help us conduct that investigation.
So I think the Israelis do it the way that most other
countries would do it, but they're doing it under Israeli
priorities and under Israeli laws that are not going to
necessarily lead to us being able to introduce the evidence
that they collect in a U.S. court. The way they get statements
from witnesses and so forth can also be in a manner that we
can't use them in a U.S. court.
So don't get me wrong. We can overcome some of these
obstacles. I wanted you to be aware there are particular
challenges in these overseas cases.
Mr. Meadows. So when are you going to overcome these
obstacles? Because the chairman pointed out from a standpoint
of the results, as Winston Churchill would say, is we haven't
seen a whole lot of them, so the point of your office is what?
Mr. Wiegmann. Well, our office, again, to be clear, it's to
ensure that justice is done, whether it's done----
Mr. Meadows. So as long as the Israelis do it, you're fine?
Mr. Wiegmann. We support all tools. We have whole programs
at the Department of Justice that is our design to build the
capacity of foreign countries to prosecute terrorists. We work
with----
Mr. Meadows. So Mr. Roth shouldn't expect any further
action from DOJ?
Mr. Wiegmann. I wouldn't say that in his particular case.
I'm just saying that if the Israelis were to sentence the
attackers in that case to life sentences or adequate terms of
imprisonment, that's a way to protect our national security and
ensures accountability.
Mr. Meadows. Who determines what's adequate?
Mr. Wiegmann. Well, I don't know. We would have to evaluate
that, and when they get out of prison----
Mr. Meadows. Who determines it? Is it Mr. Roth or is it
you? Who determines what's adequate?
Mr. Wiegmann. If they get out of prison, and we think it's
not enough, then we can pursue charges at that time. We have
done so in many cases. That's one of the things that happened
in these release cases in 2011, which is they were released
prematurely as part of a prisoner swap. We were not happy with
that at all, and we are actively pursuing those cases, I can
assure you.
Mr. Meadows. So, Mr. Chairman, you know that you have my
full support, and I will continue to work with you as you
continue to illuminate this particular situation. I thank you
for your leadership, and I yield back.
Mr. DeSantis. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Wiegmann, one
of the purported rationales for the Koby Mandell Act was for
OVT to, ``determine the reasons for the absence of indictments
of terrorists in some regions,'' and obviously Israel was one
of those. Has the DOJ actually done that and determined
specific reasons why Israel would not be getting prosecutions
while other overseas victims in other areas of the world do? Is
there a memo, or does it outline the reasons for that?
Mr. Wiegmann. I'm not familiar with that. You said the
reasons why there are no charges?
Mr. DeSantis. Yeah. Determine the reasons for the absence
of indictments of terrorists in some regions, and I think this
would be obviously one of those regions where the indictments
would be lacking.
Mr. Wiegmann. Of U.S. charges, you mean?
Mr. DeSantis. Yes.
Mr. Wiegmann. Yes. I think the reasons would be along the
lines that we've talked about, although those aren't unique to
Israel. The challenges that we have would be in any country,
the ones I identified. It's just that in some cases, we're able
to overcome those, and others not.
Mr. DeSantis. Ms. Singer, do you believe that OVT is doing
what it was set out to do?
Ms. Singer. So I definitely have a relationship that
started off very strong with the office. I was in touch with
them very much. But with all due respect to Mr. Wiegmann, I
never was even told any information about my attackers, about
those that planned and carried out the attack. I know that the
terrorist, you know, died in the attack, but I wasn't told any
other information until I signed on to the lawsuits that I was
on, the Arab Bank lawsuit and National Westminster Bank, and
once I signed there, the lawyers were then able to tell me that
the terrorists that were the masterminds of my attack were
currently in jail.
But any information that I tried to seek further from that,
from the office, was really, there was none for me. And my
biggest concern and fear is what happens when those that have
carried out my attack are released in a swap, in a prisoner
exchange, and then they're just going to be left free to go to
other countries. And even countries that we have extradition
treaties with, they won't be extradited and brought here and be
put on trial for the murder of Americans and injured Americans,
which are many, many more than the number 64.
And I don't want to preclude in saying that not only are
those numbers, but there are families and extended families and
communities that are directly impacted by those murders. Our
family members are the ones that suffer long-term with us,
especially the survivors, that live with those memories every
day. And justice for us and accountability and validating what
we went through is something that we need to see more of.
We need to make sure that those that have carried out these
attacks, if they're being let out of jail because of an
exchange, that their lives are not going to go back as if
they're heroes, but that they're really going to be prosecuted
against in this country and be made an example that no one
should be carrying out attacks against Americans anywhere in
the world. And I think it's really important that there is more
movement, and more measures taken to, especially with the ones
that we've talked about from the Schalit deal, there are a
number of those with American blood on their hands that could
be taken and prosecuted.
Again, for me, I've never received any significant
information in this area with regard to assistance of ITVERP
and other areas of psychological, physical. The immediate needs
for a victim after an attack, the office is very good with, in
terms of medical needs and reimbursement, but it's really the
justice portion of it that I have some issues with in terms of
really wanting to find out what happened and where these people
are and that they're not going to be released soon.
Mr. DeSantis. Do you know, Mr. Wiegmann, the status we had
the murders in Gush Etzion, I think, in November of 2015. There
was an American that was killed. Are the Israelis currently
prosecuting that case to your knowledge?
Mr. Wiegmann. What was the name of the case that you
mentioned again?
Mr. DeSantis. There were a handful of people, probably mid-
November of 2015. We can get you the information if you can let
us. It was the most recent, I believe. Oh, yeah, it was
Schwartz.
Mr. Wiegmann. So, yes, the Israelis have opened a
prosecution in that case, and brought charges in that case. I
think there are three others; there have been seven. There's
been an uptick in violence in Israel recently, and there's been
a number of Americans injured or killed in those attacks. I
think there are seven cases, and of those seven recent cases
involving Americans, there are four that the Israelis have
brought charges, and we're in touch with, have contacted the
victims and their families in each of those cases and have
offered our support and services.
Mr. DeSantis. Okay. Good. Mr. Roth, your testimony was
great. You really did a good job with that. It was well done,
so thank you for that. I think you bring up a good point.
Obviously, when something like this happens, I mean, we want
justice, but I think everyone would prefer that this stuff just
does not happen to begin with. You talked about the incitement,
and you talked about just the lucrative nature of terrorism in
this society, and American funds are obviously a part of
propping up the Palestinian Authority, even with the Unity
Government with Hamas. What is your advice to us about how we
use tax dollars with respect to the Palestinian Authority?
Mr. Roth. Look for the return on investment, if I could
just put that in the simplest of terms. But I'm not very good
at giving advice, certainly not in this context. I am a little
bit better at asking questions. And I have to say the one
question that is rattling around in my brain after hearing some
of the comments that have been made here and focusing on the
work of the OVT, what it says it does, what it describes as
being its goals, what its highest priorities are, I'm struck by
a triviality, and I mentioned it in my written submission.
The brochure that's handed out to families who are the
clientele of the OVT have gone through at least two different
versions, and you have to look very carefully to see the
difference because they look identical. But the difference
between the two is that in one of them, the earlier one, the
first one, is a section, a significant section headed, ``What
are the Rights of Victims?'' And in a later version, that
paragraph has simply been removed. The guidelines haven't
changed. Nothing's changed. But somebody somewhere--and as I
say, all I know is to ask questions--has made the decision that
the rights of the victims perhaps isn't the same kind of
priority now as it was then.
Now, I'm not establishing that as a conclusion at all. I'm
only asking questions. But as a lawyer--and I've practiced law
as long as most people here in this room--I know that you can't
simplify the legal process without doing damage to the
integrity of the process.
The fact is, things can take time. But speaking as a client
of the lawyers now, my family and I haven't heard a thing for 4
years. I've learned a lot about the perpetrators of the murder
of my daughter, but it's come through the legal offices of
Twitter, and Facebook, and YouTube. That's not consistent with
the self-description of the OVT. I have, and I mean this
sincerely, the utmost empathy with the people doing the job,
and I know how tough it is to be a lawyer with unreasonable
demands of oversight committees and difficult clients, but we
have seen nothing, and the nothing is rattling around in my
brain as a question, not as a conclusion.
Mr. DeSantis. Thank you. Mr. Lynch, do you have anything
further?
Mr. Lynch. Sure.
Mr. DeSantis. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from
Massachusetts.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Wiegmann, the
Office of Justice For the Victims of Overseas Terrorism, OVT,
that's in your department. Is that correct?
Mr. Wiegmann. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Mr. Lynch. Then we have the Office of Victims of Crime. Is
that in your department as well?
Mr. Wiegmann. It's in the Department of Justice, not in my
division, but it's in the criminal division.
Mr. Lynch. That's regarding victims' expenses,
reimbursement programs?
Mr. Wiegmann. That's correct.
Mr. Lynch. Then we have--the FBI has an Office of Victims
Assistance straight up, right?
Mr. Wiegmann. Correct.
Mr. Lynch. And that's totally different?
Mr. Wiegmann. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Ms. Singer, you've worked with dozens of
Americans affected by overseas terrorism, and you, yourself,
obviously are a victim of bombing in Israel. In your testimony,
you said that you thought that many victims that you worked
with have never even heard of OVT or its services. Is that your
testimony here today?
Ms. Singer. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. You know, it seems scattered. I know these
different agencies were created in response to different
issues. But you got people at State. You got people with you at
DOJ. Then you've got people at FBI. And, you know, you think
that with all those agencies, if they were doing what they
should be doing, victims and their families, they shouldn't be
waiting 4 years without information. Especially when, as you
say, it's out there on Twitter and other media platforms.
I'm just wondering if there's a way to consolidate this and
do it in a way that actually serves the people. I think we're
running into a problem where it's everybody's job, so nobody's
doing it. That's the problem. And I'm just wondering if we have
accountability with one agency and it's their job and we can
hold them accountable if it doesn't happen? I just think that
it works in harmony with all of our incentives here, which is,
you want to get as much information to the victims' families as
possible. Right now it seems like it's three or four different
agencies have this responsibility, and nobody's really doing it
to the extent that it needs to be done.
Mr. Wiegmann. So let me just comment first that you're
absolutely right that in keeping the victims informed, and
serving as that liaison function is job one. If we're not doing
that, we're not doing our jobs, in other words, being a liaison
with the victims, keeping them informed of the developments in
their case, telling them as much as we can about the scope of
the investigation, if charges are brought, keeping them
apprised of the progress of the prosecution, telling them their
rights, as Mr. Roth said. These are statutory mandates that
Congress has created, and we have an obligation to fulfill. We
needed to try to do that in every single case, and we work hard
to do that to reach out to the victims; but if there's a case
where that's not happening, then we need to correct that.
In terms of having the different offices, they really do
perform different functions. OVT was actually the latecomer
that Congress created in 2005. The Office of Victims'
Assistance at FBI is the kind of what I would analogize as the
first responder. They're the ones who are often the first ones
to contact victims. They're providing some of those immediate
social services and things like that to victims to assist them.
They also have a much broader mandate. It's not just terrorism,
so it's any crime. They're protecting all crime victims, so
they have a much broader and different mandate.
Then you have victim-witness coordinators at U.S.
attorneys' offices. I know this can be confusing, but just bear
with me just a minute. Those folks are helping when there's a
U.S. prosecution. So if it's brought in Illinois or Georgia or
California, the U.S. Attorney's office will have someone
assigned to work with the victims in conjunction with those
cases.
So the gap that OVT fills is for these overseas cases. So
how do we help people know their rights in Israeli or France or
Brazil, or wherever the case may be, understand what their
rights are under foreign law and how they can interface and
help them participate in those proceedings and provide victim
impact statements and do the other things that we do?
So that's why we have different offices, and we try to have
all these offices work together as appropriate.
Mr. Lynch. Okay. I've exhausted my time. I yield back.
Mr. DeSantis. The gentleman yields back. The chair now
recognizes the gentleman from North Carolina.
Mr. Meadows. Mr. Chairman, I'll be very brief. Mr.
Wiegmann, I asked earlier if it was lack of funding, how can we
help? So here is my request of you and my challenge to you. It
seems curious that I would have two people at a particular
witness table that would indicate that there is a failure to
communicate on not only a regular basis, but they're finding
out more information, whether it's a lawsuit or Twitter or
Facebook, than they are from the appropriate agency.
You just described the agencies and what they did, and I'm
confused. I mean, it's like spaghetti, and you don't know where
to start and where to stop, and so here's what my request of
you, is, can you put together a task force within DOJ that
makes a commitment to all victims, not just the three that we
have here today, to provide regular updates, to let them know
what their rights are, to put it back in a brochure to make
sure that every victim's family gets something as a disclosure
that says you can count on this, you can count on this, and you
can count on this.
And if you're not getting that, then let your Member of
Congress know, or let us know, or the appropriate person know.
Are you willing to commit today to get that available to the
hundreds of victims that are out there and victims' families
and make a commitment to this committee and the chairman and
the ranking member today?
Mr. Wiegmann. That's our mission. That's what we should be
doing. As I said----
Mr. Meadows. I understand that's your mission, but let me
just tell you, you're failing at part of your mission, Mr.
Wiegmann. And so I'm asking you, are you willing to make a
commitment, and if so, by what date can this committee count on
that?
Mr. Wiegmann. So you're saying to create a task force to--
--
Mr. Meadows. It doesn't even have to be a task force. Just
get it done where victims can understand what their rights are
and what's available to them where they can count on it so they
don't have to have an attorney figure out the legalese that you
just went through.
Mr. Wiegmann. That's absolutely our commitment to the
victims, and so I can make that commitment today. We owe that
to the victims, and I'm certainly happy right after this
hearing, we can chat if you feel like you're not getting what
you need from our office. We can meet. We can arrange meetings
for you, whatever you guys want because we do owe that to the
victims.
Mr. Meadows. I do appreciate that. But here's what I don't
want to happen, is one conversation that happens because you're
feeling the heat today because the chairman called this
particular hearing. What I want it to be is a report back to
the chairman and say this is the process of how we're going to
keep all victims and their families informed and of their
rights from here on out. Can you do that within the next 120
days?
Mr. Wiegmann. We can absolutely get you something on that.
Mr. Meadows. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. DeSantis. The gentleman yields back. I want to thank
the witnesses for coming. I think the testimony from our
victims and family members was phenomenal. I think it was very,
very powerful. I think it was necessary, and I think it's going
to help the Department of Justice perform better at this
function.
We face, as Americans, a global jihad, and Israel is ground
zero for that fight. And when we have Americans visiting,
studying, living in Israel, and they're killed, they're wounded
by terrorists, we're not going to forget that. We can't forget
that. And we will get justice. And we'll be patient if we need
to be, but we are not going to let justice be denied. So thank
you guys for attending, and this hearing is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:51 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
APPENDIX
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