    [House Hearing, 114 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

    THE PRESIDENT'S VISIT TO VIETNAM: A MISSED OPPORTUNITY TO ADVANCE HUMAN
                                     RIGHTS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA, GLOBAL HEALTH,
                            GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS, AND
                          INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

                                     OF THE

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                 JUNE 22, 2016

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 114-213

                                   __________

            Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/
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                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                     EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman
    CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey     ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
    ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida         BRAD SHERMAN, California
    DANA ROHRABACHER, California         GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
    STEVE CHABOT, Ohio                   ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey
    JOE WILSON, South Carolina           GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
    MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas             THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
    TED POE, Texas                       BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
    MATT SALMON, Arizona                 KAREN BASS, California
    DARRELL E. ISSA, California          WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
    TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania             DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
    JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          ALAN GRAYSON, Florida
    MO BROOKS, Alabama                   AMI BERA, California
    PAUL COOK, California                ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California
    RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas            GRACE MENG, New York
    SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania            LOIS FRANKEL, Florida
    RON DeSANTIS, Florida                TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii
    MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina         JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
    TED S. YOHO, Florida                 ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
    CURT CLAWSON, Florida                BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania
    SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee
    REID J. RIBBLE, Wisconsin
    DAVID A. TROTT, Michigan
    LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
    DANIEL DONOVAN, New York

         Amy Porter, Chief of Staff      Thomas Sheehy, Staff Director

                   Jason Steinbaum, Democratic Staff Director

                                  --------

        Subcommittee on Africa, Global Health, Global Human Rights, and
                          International Organizations

                   CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey, Chairman
    MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina         KAREN BASS, California
    CURT CLAWSON, Florida                DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
    SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee          AMI BERA, California
    DANIEL DONOVAN, New York
                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                   WITNESSES

    Pastor Rmah Loan (former head, Southern Evangelical Church of
      Vietnam--Dak Nong Province)....................................     6
    Ms. Katie Duong, overseas representative, Popular Bloc of Cao Dai
      Religion.......................................................    11
    Nguyen Dinh Thang, Ph.D., president and chief executive officer,
      Boat People SOS................................................    17
    Mr. T. Kumar, director of international advocacy, Amnesty
      International..................................................    24

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    Pastor Rmah Loan: Prepared statement.............................     8
    Ms. Katie Duong: Prepared statement..............................    13
    Nguyen Dinh Thang, Ph.D.: Prepared statement.....................    20
    Mr. T. Kumar: Prepared statement.................................    26

                                    APPENDIX

    Hearing notice...................................................    48
    Hearing minutes..................................................    49
    The Honorable Christopher H. Smith, a Representative in Congress
      from the State of New Jersey, and chairman, Subcommittee on
      Africa, Global Health, Global Human Rights, and International
      Organizations: Statement of Ms. Jackie Bong Wright.............    50

                      THE PRESIDENT'S VISIT TO VIETNAM: A
                         MISSED OPPORTUNITY TO ADVANCE
                                  HUMAN RIGHTS

                                  ----------

                            WEDNESDAY, JUNE 22, 2016

                           House of Representatives,

                     Subcommittee on Africa, Global Health,

             Global Human Rights, and International Organizations,

                         Committee on Foreign Affairs,

                                Washington, DC.

        The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:00 p.m., in
    room 2200 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Christopher H.
    Smith (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
        Mr. Smith. Subcommittee will come to order and good
    afternoon to everyone.
        Over the past 20 years, much has changed in Vietnam. Some
    Vietnamese are a little richer, but universally recognized
    human rights remain elusive for most.
        The Vietnamese Communist Party has opened up a bit to the
    outside world but remains closed to the idea of democracy and
    the rule of law. U.S.-Vietnamese relations have warmed because
    of Vietnam's fears of China's increasing economic power and its
    incursions into the South China Sea.
        But human rights improvements have not come from so-called
    better relations. The administration has included Vietnam, a
    dictatorship, among several democracies in the Trans-Pacific
    Partnership, granted potentially lucrative trade benefits to
    Communist leaders.
        Shockingly, during his recent trip, President Obama gave up
    the U.S. arms embargo. In other words, the U.S. is poised to
    provide lethal weapons to a brutal dictatorship that jails and
    tortures dissidents.
        Where are the background checks, Mr. President, of those
    soldiers and secret police who will have access to
    sophisticated weapons?
        Who will monitor the use or abuse of these lethal weapons?
    What is triggered if U.S.-supplied weapons are used to commit
    atrocities?
        The reality is that the administration chose to reward one
    of Asia's most repressive regimes with the region's most worst
    human rights record without getting any tangible progress on
    freedoms and liberties.
        We did hear the administration touting the bilateral labor
    consistency plan. It's signed as part of the TPP. But as the
    submitted testimony by Jackie Bong Wright states, as of today
    independent labor unions remain prohibited. Labor activists are
    in jail and labor organizers are severely beaten.
        That the Vietnamese also detained and prevented civil
    society activists from meeting President Obama during his visit
    was not just an insult to the President, it is a bare-fisted
    demonstration of Vietnam's repressive government.
        His visit was an epic failure of diplomacy. The President
    has said repeatedly that he wants to rise above history and
    heal wounds with America's old adversaries.
        But that is not done by signing bad deals with dictators,
    giving them lethal weapons, and getting nothing in return.
        This is shortsighted, misguided, and driven by an
    ideological agenda more than a clear assessment of long-term
    U.S. interests. The end result of the President's visit is that
    the American people now get to subsidize the lifestyles of
    Communist Party leaders and underwrite their repression of
    religious communities and rights advocates.
        Vietnamese-Americans have asked this Congress and the last
    three administrations to prioritize human rights concerns with
    Hanoi.
        But a small group of Vietnam ``experts'' in Washington veto
    these plans, holding on to the mistaken belief that trade,
    investment, and engagement will bring about political reform.
        Trade, investment, and engagement failed to change Vietnam
    in 2001, the bilateral trade agreement failed to bring reforms
    in 2007 when Vietnam joined the WTO, and it will fail now.
        Just look at China for what will happen when authoritarian
    governments get rich. They get the resources they need to
    expand censorship and repression, to grow their secret police
    and military capabilities and, above all, to stay in power.
        The President said famously in his inaugural address that
    if authoritarian countries would unclench their fists the U.S.
    would extend an open hand.
        But I see no tangible evidence that Vietnam, Cuba, or Iran,
    for that matter, have unclenched their fists. In fact, just the
    opposite is true.
        The President seems more interested in photo opportunities
    with dictators than standing up for persecuted individuals who
    share our desire for freedom, democracy, and human rights.
        This is not smart diplomacy. It is a surrender of U.S.
    interests and values. Sadly, the President's legacy will be the
    propping up of a Communist old guard when he should be standing
    with the new generation of freedom advocates in Vietnam.
        We should stand with the oppressed, not with the oppressor.
    We must stand in solidarity with them. Over 100 prisoners of
    conscience remain detained in Vietnam, including human rights
    lawyer Nguyen Van Dai.
        I met with Nguyen Van Dai in Hanoi in 2005 and his
    courageous wife, Vu Minh Khanh, testified at a subcommittee
    hearing several weeks ago in anticipation of the President's
    trip.
        Why did the administration not demand the release of Vu's
    husband and all of these other prisoners and do so in public?
    To be strong and bold yet diplomatic?
        Father Ly was released into house arrest a few months prior
    to his sentence ending, and this is not a human rights
    breakthrough. Father Ly went into prison healthy and vigorous
    but emerged sickly and broken.
        I met him years ago when he was under house arrest another
    time after being released from a long incarceration. He is an
    amazing Catholic priest like so many of the leaders of the
    religious communities including the Venerable Thich Quang Do
    with whom I also met with and he continues to be under pagoda
    arrest.
        I have met with a broad spectrum of Vietnam's rights
    advocates, religious leaders, and activists and I know there is
    a younger generation of Vietnam--66 percent of Vietnam is under
    the age of 40--that looks to U.S. leadership.
        They want the United States to push for political reforms
    and universally-recognized human rights. They hunger for the
    type of liberty and a life they see enjoyed by their relatives
    in New Jersey, California, Virginia, Texas, Louisiana, and in
    many other parts of this country and around the world--places
    where the Vietnamese diaspora have migrated and have flourished
    and have been great citizens.
        It is for this reason that I am asking and making another
    push to pass legislation that I have authored known as the
    Vietnam Human Rights Act. This bill has passed four times only
    to be blocked in the Senate--first time back in the year 2004.
        The bipartisan Vietnam Human Rights Act will restore the
    right priorities to U.S. policy toward Vietnam and will limit
    U.S. non-humanitarian assistance that goes to Vietnam until
    there are concrete human rights protections.
        The bill also says that Vietnam should be designated as a
    Country of Particular Concern (CPC) for its religious freedom
    violations. Just last week, I chaired a hearing, and Dan will
    remember it well.
        We had the Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious
    Freedom and the former Chairman of the U.S. Commission on
    International Religious Freedom and the Commission has made a
    very strong and consistent appeal to the IRF office to put
    Vietnam in that CPC category.
        It had been taken off prematurely during an economic
    agreement in the false hope that there would be deliverables
    that never happened.
        People who came forward including those who signed Bloc
    8406, a wonderful human rights manifesto, found themselves
    targeted because they signed on and did so openly in the belief
    that somehow after the agreement with the United States there
    would be a new era. That era has not happened.
        We all know that CPC designation worked when it was used by
    the Bush administration but, again, I believe that the Bush
    administration lifted it prematurely in anticipation of, but
    without, concrete changes made.
        The Communist Party is not Vietnam's future. That future
    lies with the Nguyen Van Dais and many other advocates of
    political reform and human rights who seek our freedoms more
    than our trade.
        U.S. policy must send the unmistakable message to the
    Government of Vietnam that human rights improvements are
    important to better relations critically linked to our mutual
    economic and security interests and will not be ignored nor
    will they be bargained away.
        The President failed to send this message. It is up to the
    Congress and the next administration, although there are some
    months remaining in this one, to restore the right priorities
    to the U.S.-Vietnam relations.
        I would like to now yield to my friend, Mr. Donovan, for
    any comments.
        Mr. Donovan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I would like to yield my time to give the witnesses more
    time to testify. I look forward to their testimony and to their
    insight into the relations between our country and theirs.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you.
        I would like to now welcome our distinguished witnesses to
    the witness table, beginning first with Pastor Rmah Loan, who
    is a Montagnard pastor with Christian Missionary Alliance and
    later became chaplain of a Montagnard church that is affiliated
    with the Southern Evangelical Church of Vietnam. His church has
    36,000 followers and the authorities often showcase it to
    foreign missions that visit central highlands. Pastor Loan was
    the head of his church only in title.
        The government put in place an administrative committee to
    oversee all operations of the church. It made all decisions and
    Pastor Loan had no say whatsoever. Every statement of Pastor
    Loan must be vetted by this committee and preapproved by the
    proper security apparatus.
        In June 2014, Pastor Loan and his wife came to the United
    States at the invitation of a local church but they have not
    returned under the threat of arrest.
        We will then hear from Ms. Katie Duong, who is the overseas
    representative of the Popular Bloc of Cao Dai Religion, also a
    member of the Advisory Committee for Religious Freedom in
    Vietnam.
        Until recently, her father, Mr. Duong Xuan Luong, a senior
    member of the Popular Bloc of Cao Dai, continued to lead it in
    Vietnam, facing increasing threats by local authorities who
    fled to Thailand early this year but has continued to lead and
    advocate for the Popular Bloc of Cao Dai Religion and has filed
    multiple reports on violations of freedom of religion to the
    U.N. Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief.
        We will then hear from Dr. Nguyen Dinh Thang, who I have
    known for 25 years or more. Dr. Thang came to the United States
    as a refugee from Vietnam in 1979.
        After earning his Ph.D. he began volunteering at Boat
    People SOS in 1988. Now serving as head of Boat People SOS, Dr.
    Thang has worked for the past 25 years to resettle 20,000 boat
    people to the U.S. after they were rescued from Vietnam and
    also has worked to rescue more than 4,000 victims of
    trafficking.
        He has received numerous awards for his extensive work on
    human rights. He travels extensively to Asia and I would note
    parenthetically on the boat people it was Dr. Thang who alerted
    this subcommittee.
        It resulted in four hearings including a closed briefing
    with the administration in the hopes that they would reform
    their efforts to send so many back who had been found to be
    real refugees. And as a direct result of his leadership, those
    20,000 people came in under the ROVR program and had it not
    been for him that would not have happened.
        So thank you. Those families are deeply appreciative as am
    I and this subcommittee for your leadership.
        Then we welcome back again Mr. T. Kumar, who is Amnesty
    International's director for international advocacy. He has
    testified many times before the U.S. Congress on human rights
    abuses.
        He has served as a human rights monitor in many Asian
    countries as well as Bosnia, Afghanistan, Guatemala, Sudan, and
    South Africa. He has also served as director of several refugee
    ships and camps. T. Kumar was a political prisoner himself for
    5 years in Sri Lanka for his peaceful human rights activities.
        Amnesty International adopted him as a prisoner of
    conscience and now he, on the leadership side, tried to help
    many others and to rescue many others from that cruel fate.
        I would like to yield to Chairman Rohrabacher if he has any
    opening comments.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. I am upset at this administration but I
    have to be fair to this administration when I say that. I have
    been upset with other administrations as well, Republican and
    Democratic, when it comes to issues like being serious about
    human rights.
        American leaders can sit right next to tyrants and
    gangsters and not even bring up the fact that they have a one-
    child policy, for example, in China where millions of babies
    were being murdered.
        And in the case of Vietnam, you know, and we have a
    President who can go to Vietnam but can't go see General Sisi
    in Egypt. That tells us something.
        The Government of Vietnam is in no way consistent with what
    the American people believe is honest government and consistent
    with any of the principles of democracy that we believe in.
        And this administration has just basically closed their
    eyes to those particular fundamentals that are supposed to be
    the basis of our own Government. Well, if we don't believe in
    it enough to bring this up and make that a major issue of
    contention between our governments, what does that say about
    our own beliefs in our own system here?
        So, Mr. Chairman, again, I always admire your willingness
    to spend your time and your effort to focus on the fundamental
    issue that really counts and that is whether we respect the
    human rights of the people of whatever country it is and
    whether we expect those governments to maintain a certain
    standard.
        Vietnam is nowhere near that standard and the United States
    needs to say so aggressively and if indeed they want to make
    things better we should work with them and try to make it
    better.
        But at this point, they certainly haven't come close, and
    thank you for holding this hearing today.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you, Chairman Rohrabacher.
        Pastor Loan.

         STATEMENT OF PASTOR RMAH LOAN (FORMER HEAD, SOUTHERN
           EVANGELICAL CHURCH OF VIETNAM--DAK NONG PROVINCE)

        [The following statement was delivered through an
    interpreter.]
        Pastor Loan. The Honorable Christopher Smith, distinguished
    Members of Congress, my name is Rmah Loan. I was born on
    February 12th, 1950. I have been a pastor for 44 years under
    the Southern Evangelist Church of Vietnam.
        From 1967 to 1969, I assisted American special forces
    during the Vietnam War. Afterward, I went to biblical school in
    Ban Me Thuot to study theology.
        I worked as a pastor in residence for 2 years until I was
    detained by the Communist force in 1975. I was imprisoned for 8
    years.
        I was in jail for 8 years because of my Christian belief
    and support for the United States Armed Forces. After my
    release from prison, I remained under house arrest until 1986.
        In 1986, I was appointed by the Southern Evangelical
    Christians of Southern Vietnam to be in charge of the
    Evangelical Church in Budak village where I remained until
    2014.
        In 2014, I came to the United States for church-related
    business but then found out I could return to Vietnam in
    safety. Now I am asking this great nation to grant me asylum
    because if I return to Vietnam I will be imprisoned again,
    tortured, and even killed.
        Today, I would like to tell you about my church in Budak,
    Thuan An, Dak Mil, Dak Nong Province. This church serves
    approximately 100,000 followers throughout Dak Nong Province
    that includes ethnic Bunong, Hmong, Giao, San Chi, Nung, Tay,
    and Kinh.
        In 2007, Hanoi allowed the congregation to build the church
    in Budak. Even though we have a church, we do not have the
    freedom to practice our religion. The Vietnamese Government
    controls the executive committee that leads the church.
        Any time we want to hold elections for the executive
    committee, we have to inform the subdistrict, district, and the
    Dak Nong Province police to request their permission.
        The church must provide full names of our candidates for
    background checks. To be eligible, a candidate must not have
    been in service of the South Vietnam Government or a member of
    the FULRO, United Front for the Liberation of Oppressed Races,
    or any deemed to be opposed to the Hanoi Government.
        On election day, the government authorities preside over
    the election process. The government authorities also attend
    and observe all ordination ceremonies.
        When the church wants to celebrate holidays such as
    Christmas, Easter or for a wedding or a funeral service, the
    pastor must get prior permission from the authorities--the
    specific date, time, duration of the service, as well as the
    number of participants.
        The pastor must provide the text of his sermon to the
    government 7 days before the service for prior approval. The
    government even controls the words that we can use in our
    sermon.
        It is forbidden to use such words as devil because in
    Vietnamese ``ma quy'' can be flipped around to spell ``My qua''
    meaning that Americans are coming back. For such absurd
    reasons, we may not mention devil in our sermon.
        Similarly, we may not say that Christ is coming again
    because the authorities interpret that as meaning Americans
    will return to Vietnam.
        The Vietnamese Government accused Protestantism to be an
    American religion, neither may we use the word freedom because
    the government believes that freedom refers to America, as in
    the Land of the Free.
        The authorities also send their operatives to come and
    monitor our services. At the start of the service, the program
    leader must recognize and give thanks to the Communist Party
    and government officials first and then we can give thanks to
    the Lord, the guests and the church, in that order.
        In 2014, my wife and I came to the United States at the
    invitation of a local church. As soon as we were in the
    country, we received notice from a fellow pastor in Vietnam
    advising me not to return because the authorities were
    investigating my children about our whereabouts.
        The authorities suspect that I had disclosed to the world
    the death by torture of a Hmong member of my church. In 2013,
    Hoang Van Ngai, a faithful and dedicated deacon at our church,
    was detained and beaten to death.
        The authorities ordered me to never mention this incident
    and threatened my life if I dare to defy their order. In 2014,
    news about Deacon Ngai's death by torture became known to the
    world.
        The authorities suspect that I was the source of
    information. I was not. Regardless, if I return to Vietnam now,
    I will be detained, tortured and likely killed the same way
    they killed Deacon Hoang Van Ngai.
        It has not been easy on me and my wife because our children
    are left in Vietnam. I am applying for asylum in the United
    States but it can take years for my fate to be decided.
        America is the land that was founded in religious freedom.
    Just like the immigrants and refugees from hundreds of years
    ago, I have reached the shore of America, seeking safety and
    freedom.
        I ask that you, as the leaders of the United States, to
    never forget that millions of people around the world are
    suffering every day all because of the god they believe in. I
    ask that you continue to protect them and also that you protect
    my wife and me so we do not have to face persecution in the
    hands of Vietnamese authorities.
        We believe President Obama and leaders of the free world
    must have a road map for peace, freedom and democracy for
    Vietnam.
        We must stand with one voice, one heart, and one task,
    working together to defend the rights of religious freedom for
    Montagnard Evangelical Christians and all Vietnamese citizens
    in Vietnam.
        Thank you for the privilege to speak freely for the first
    time in 41 years. Thank you for remembering the Montagnard
    people and taking a stand for our survival. May God bless you
    and the United States of America.
        May God bless you and the United States of America.
        Thank you for the time to speak and my chance to be here in
    America. I want to stay here so I can save my life.
        [The prepared statement of Pastor Loan follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        			----------

        Mr. Smith. Pastor Loan, thank you for your very courageous
    and compelling testimony. It really is extremely helpful that
    the American public, this subcommittee, the Congress, hear what
    you just said as well as our other witnesses. So on behalf of
    all of us, thank you so very much.
        I would like to now recognize Ms. Duong. Please present
    your testimony.

    STATEMENT OF MS. KATIE DUONG, OVERSEAS REPRESENTATIVE, POPULAR
                        BLOC OF CAO DAI RELIGION

        Ms. Duong. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, Mr.
    Chairman and distinguished Members of Congress. My name is
    Katie Duong Skiba and it is my honor to be here today to
    present about my religion, Cao Dai, which is a very small
    religion founded in Vietnam in 1926.
        Now, we Cao Dai people call for unity, love, peace and
    respect for all other faiths and we have our own faith,
    rituals, and traditions. However, the Communists--the
    Vietnamese Communist Government has been trying to change
    everything.
        And my presentation today will have three parts--government
    takeover, ongoing persecutions, and request for support.
        So the government took over our main temple after 1975 and
    disbanded all the leadership's organization and they basically
    told us to go home. And after that they confiscated our main
    temple and all other temples, and after a while they appointed
    their people--the Communist people--to control the temple and
    the whole Cao Dai Religion.
        They changed our rituals and they forced all of us to obey
    their disciplines, which we do not agree, and because of that
    we have been facing a lot of ongoing persecutions. And then I
    would like to show you a few pictures of the recent.
        So since 1975, we have been facing, you know, government
    takeover and we have been trying so hard to get together and
    tell the government that we need religious freedom--give us the
    right--give us back the temple.
        This happened in May last year when almost 1,000 people
    went back to the temple asking them to let us hold a meeting to
    elect our own leaders instead of them forcing the Communist
    leader on us.
        And they basically banned us from approaching the temple,
    and I can show you a lot of people who could not get into the
    premises. And it's kind of dark but you can see the man was
    arrested and these women have paint on their ao dai, which is
    the traditional dress that the Cao Dai people wear.
        So these are things that happened and at a funeral if we
    don't let the Communist Cao Dai come to host the ceremony they
    will attack us. And you see that this is the funeral--the
    ceremony that we had and, you know, got destroyed, basically.
        And this is the Divine Eye installation which is a very
    important ceremony that people have--religion have to install
    that at their house. You see the first picture there's a
    picture of the Divine Eye.
        But the second picture of the Divine Eye portrait was taken
    away by those people. That is a very insulting action and they
    basically came in and we closed the door and they tried to get
    in. They attacked us and this has been, like, ongoing.
        It is not one incident. It has been going on and on and on.
    We got hurt. People got imprisoned and vandalism and people got
    arrested in the van or truck.
        Do you see that? In the last picture on the bottom right
    corner, people was arrested to the government offices just
    because we are practicing our religion.
        And these documents show that these people could not get
    out of the country because they are trying to go to Thailand to
    attend their Asian Religious Freedom Forum.
        So we have all different kinds of persecutions and ongoing
    violations for religious freedom. A personal example would be
    my family and my father.
        He was arrested and put into jail when I was 15 and my
    younger sister was only 10. My mother had to take care of the
    whole family of four children by herself and with a lot of
    difficulty financially caused by the government.
        And then after getting out of prison, my father continued
    to fight for religious freedoms and then--and they continued to
    harass him. In 2008, they tried to arrest him again to put him
    in jail.
        But, luckily, he was not at home and they have been trying
    to arrest him since then, and recently they have been given
    threats again. So my father has to, you know, get out of the
    country. As a U.S. citizen I have sponsored my father and my
    mother to come with me to the United States.
        My mom could come with me but my father, unfortunately, the
    Vietnamese Government refused to give him a passport or any
    documentation to go through the visa process.
        My last section will be our request for support. If
    possible, we would love to remain independent from the
    government control.
        We don't want any interference from the government and we
    want to reserve our culture the unique way that we practice our
    religions. In order to do so we have to have freedom of, you
    know, movement, freedom of assembly, association, freedom of
    speech, and information.
        We want the Vietnamese Government to respect human rights,
    especially religious freedom rights that they have signed for
    the universal agreement with the United Nations.
        And with the growing bilateral development connection
    between the U.S. Government and the Vietnamese Government, the
    U.S. Government has solid ground to remind the Vietnamese
    Government to respect that and that is a value that the U.S.
    has been living on. So we look forward to that and I appreciate
    your time.
        I appreciate your concern and we, the Cao Dai people,
    really need and appreciate it.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Duong follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                  ----------

        Mr. Smith. Ms. Duong, thank you very much for your
    testimony, for detailing in your written submission seven
    specific instances which give greater detail as to the
    pervasiveness of these actions--and these were instances in
    2015--which, of course, continue to today.
        And without objection, your full statement and that of all
    of our distinguished witnesses will be made a part of the
    record. But thank you for your witness.
        Ms. Duong. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Smith. Dr. Thang.

      STATEMENT OF NGUYEN DINH THANG, PH.D., PRESIDENT AND CHIEF
                   EXECUTIVE OFFICER, BOAT PEOPLE SOS

        Mr. Thang. Mr. Chairman and distinguished members of the
    committee, thank you for holding this hearing at this very
    critical time about missed opportunities to advance freedoms
    for 93 million Vietnamese people.
        As the previous speakers have said very well, the situation
    of religions in Vietnam remains very dire and deplorable.
    President Obama could have used his recent state visit to
    Vietnam to at least try to curb the backsliding in human rights
    in that country.
        He could have insisted that Vietnam release a significant
    number of prisoners of conscience before announcing the lifting
    of the arms embargo. That didn't happen.
        He could have challenged the leadership of Vietnam to
    answer the people's demand for transparency in the case of 80
    tons of dead fish as a gesture showing commitment to the
    environmental protection which, by the way, is a requirement
    under the Trans-Pacific Partnership, or TPP, and he didn't
    speak out on that issue either.
        President Obama could have demanded unhindered access to
    individuals he wanted to meet comparable to the level of access
    accorded to the Vietnamese President when he visited here in
    the States. Or President Obama could have called on authorities
    to honor the Convention Against Torture, which the National
    Assembly of Vietnam just ratified by, investigating and
    prosecuting known violators, and there are many of them.
        President Obama didn't do any of the above,
    disappointingly. Of the hundreds of prisoners of conscience,
    only Father Nguyen Van Ly was released and only by 10 weeks in
    advance of the end of his term of imprisonment.
        Hundreds of peaceful pro-environment protestors were
    arrested, detained and some were even beaten the weekend before
    and after the President's state visit to Vietnam. Civil society
    members invited to meet with the President were confined to
    their homes or even kidnapped.
        On top of that, two American citizens were abducted and
    detained, and by the way, one of them is here in this room--
    Miss Dolly Khuu. She was one of the American citizens kidnapped
    and detained in Vietnam.
        The President brought home to America a $11.3 billion deal
    for Boeing, which is great. However, nothing for human rights,
    and the backsliding has accelerated of late.
        In just 1 week, 3 months ago--in just 1 week, four bloggers
    and three land rights activists were sentenced to a total of 33
    years of imprisonment.
        Many former prisoners of conscience who were only recently
    released from prison or house detention have been rearrested
    such as--and you know him very well, Mr. Chairman--lawyer
    Nguyen Van Dai, land rights activist Can Thi Theu and pro-
    democracy advocate Tran Anh Kim.
        Many independent religious communities are facing
    increasingly brutal repression. Last August, a Hmong Christian
    was arrested the day after his meeting with members of the U.S.
    Commission on International Freedom (USCIRF).
        He was brutally tortured for 2 days and had to be
    hospitalized because he had met with the U.S. delegation and in
    January of this year a Montagnard pastor died from injuries
    caused by torture by the police.
        A fellow Montagnard pastor reported this death at a meeting
    with Ambassador David Saperstein last month. He himself was
    arrested and interrogated for 2 days.
        His interrogators threatened him with disappearance and
    harm to his wife and children if he did not stop reporting
    violations and did not renounce his faith.
        Mrs. Tran Thi Hong, the wife of imprisoned Lutheran Pastor
    Nguyen Cong Chinh and a human rights defender herself, was also
    arrested after her meeting with Ambassador Saperstein.
        She was subjected to repeated beatings and torture. Her
    daily ``working'' session with the police was suspended just
    before the arrival of President Obama to Vietnam but resumed
    immediately after his departure.
        I am glad to say that now it has stopped, thanks to the
    very strong intervention from Ambassador Saperstein himself.
    And let me show the picture of Mrs. Hong here.
        This is Pastor Nguyen Cong Chinh. He himself was brutalized
    several years ago before his imprisonment and this is Mrs.
    Hong, after the torture session--she was dumped in front of her
    house.
        She couldn't walk at all. She couldn't stand up. The
    neighbors passing by found her on the street and dragged her
    home. And this is her, Mrs. Hong, and the injuries to her knees
    and legs and feet and hands.
        And this is another incident of torture and you can see
    bruises and red marks on her face, and this is how the
    Vietnamese Government treated people who have met with U.S.
    delegations.
        And I believe it is an affront to our Government that
    President Obama didn't raise that issue, didn't condemn the
    Government of Vietnam to have done such things.
        And in the light of all these disturbing trends, somehow
    our administration still hangs its hope on Vietnam's promise to
    pass its first law on religion.
        Its latest draft would only cement the status quo and even
    make it worse by creating more bureaucratic layers of
    registration requirements and by completely eliminating the one
    section that was good in previous drafts.
        That was the section on compliance with international
    standards. That section had been removed in the latest draft of
    that law.
        Unless fundamentally and drastically modified, having no
    law at all would be a lesser evil.
        In early 2007, the Vietnamese Government launched a brutal
    political clamp down against dissidents and religious leaders
    right after it had gotten all it wanted, namely accession to
    the WTO, the lifting of the CPC designation, permanent normal
    trade relation status with the U.S. and playing host to the
    APEC Summit.
        The situation now is strikingly and disturbingly similar to
    then. Vietnam just got the U.S. arms embargo lifted, the TPP
    signed, and it will host again the APEC Summit next year.
        It is therefore critical that Congress now acts so as to
    avert the repeat of the 2007 fiasco by demanding that Vietnam
    be redesignated a Country of Particular Concern and that
    violators of religious freedom be placed under a U.S. visa ban,
    by enacting legislation which--with stricter monitoring and
    reporting requirements and more effective sanctions against
    human rights abusers, by delaying the ratification of TPP to
    allow for sufficient time to test Vietnam's willingness and
    resolve to honor labor rights, environmental protection and
    freedom of religion, to end torture and to combat modern-day
    slavery, by making any future sale of lethal weapons contingent
    on Vietnam's release of all prisoners of conscience, by giving
    Vietnam's civil society--and this is very important--
    recognition and legitimacy through direct dialogue with its
    representatives of civil society networks such as Bloc 8406,
    Vietnamese Independent Civil Society Organizations Network, or
    VICSON, and Vietnam Multi-faith Roundtable, which was just
    recently formed, and finally, by coordinating intervention
    efforts with parliamentarians of other countries.
        There are many of them in Europe as well as in ASEAN who
    would be very much interested in working and collaborating with
    U.S. Members of Congress.
        With that, I thank you again, Mr. Chairman and Members of
    Congress.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Thang follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                  ----------

        Mr. Smith. Dr. Thang, thank you so very much for your
    leadership and for your incisive comments today, which are
    very, very helpful. Thank you.
        Mr. Kumar.

    STATEMENT OF MR. T. KUMAR, DIRECTOR OF INTERNATIONAL ADVOCACY,
                         AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL

        Mr. Kumar. Thank you very much, Chairman, Congressman
    Rohrabacher. I'm extremely pleased to be here to testify and I
    was thinking this may be the first time I'm testifying after a
    person had visited a country. Usually, we have hearings before
    to put pressure but you held one.
        But it's one of the realities of the occasion that after
    the visit we are having a hearing. That says it all about
    President Obama's human rights commitment and the way they
    negotiate human rights issues along with other issues.
        I also want to make sure that my written testimony is
    entered into the record.
        Mr. Smith. Without objection, so ordered.
        Mr. Kumar. Thank you.
        Amnesty International has been working on human rights in
    Vietnam and other countries but in Vietnam for more than three,
    four decades. Things have never improved.
        It's improved sometimes when U.S. Presidents and others
    pushed and opened up a little bit. So the situation did not
    improve even when President Obama was about to visit.
        There were two things that happened before his visit. One
    is the annual human rights dialogue that took place between
    Vietnam and the U.S. No improvement at all.
        This became more of a annual exercise for the sake of
    having a dialogue. We thought something would happen because
    President Obama is about to visit.
        So then just before President Obama visited, for 2 weeks
    before, Assistant Secretary Malinowski and from the White House
    senior officials were there negotiating tried to get some
    results. Nothing except Father Ly, who was just released a
    couple of weeks before his due date.
        Then President Obama arrived. The administration, I will
    say, has misguided us before--they told us, we asked
    specifically, there are reports that the arms embargo will be
    lifted and they gave an indication that no, that's not the
    case.
        Even though Amnesty International did not take a position,
    we want to know what's going on because the reports are coming.
        Whether that was an intentional way of silencing us or
    whatever the reason, the very senior officials told us don't
    worry, no, no, no, we will consult you and all the rest of it.
        And everyone knew that the trade agreement, TPP, was one of
    the main reasons--one of President Obama's legacy. He wanted to
    keep that as a legacy.
        So these two issues were there. He went in, obviously being
    nice to Vietnam is to get them on board for TPP and also to
    everyone's surprise he announced that the arms embargo would be
    lifted. Okay, you have done all these things. You have given
    more than enough Vietnamese may have expected. But what in
    return you got was a slap in your face. In a nutshell, that is
    what happened.
        While he was there, people were arrested for peacefully
    protesting. People were held incommunicado house arrest,
    tortured. And it is very rarely defined, when a U.S. President
    is visiting a country, a host country pretty much treats
    someone who this particular President, or any U.S. President,
    is caring and supports his people without abusing them.
        That raises a serious question about how Vietnamese
    authorities look at President Obama's administration and also
    the U.S. for President Obama, as mentioned earlier, it is a
    slap in the face. He should have walked out.
        He should have said, I am leaving until you release these
    folks. He didn't do it. He was there enjoying all the parties
    and whatever he wanted to do, getting all the goodies.
        So it is disappointing. The big challenge the U.S.
    Government in the future will face is President Obama has
    lowered the bar so low that it will be very difficult for the
    next President whoever it may be to raise it.
        So that is a big challenge that the next administration
    should focus and to be mindful. Otherwise, it is going to be
    repeated. It is not only Vietnam. Other countries will feel the
    same way. Okay, we can push them and they will bend over
    backwards if we give a trade agreement and whatever the
    regional stability issues.
        The issues in Vietnam nearly everyone else said so I don't
    want to repeat. But it's really disturbing. Numerous people
    have been arrested. Prisoners of conscience have been
    imprisoned, tortured, died in custody.
        The list goes on. No institution is free there. Everything
    is under the control of the government, even the judiciary.
        So, no independent judiciary. No independent media. No
    independent institutions. Nothing is there. It is the
    government that controls everything and decides everything and
    lock people up--anyone who raises any voice.
        So as I mentioned earlier, President Obama's trip has sent
    an extremely negative impression to people of Vietnam and to
    people around the world that you can--you don't have to take
    the U.S. seriously when it comes to human rights.
        Thank you very much, Chairman, for inviting me and looking
    forward to the questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Kumar follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                  ----------

        Mr. Smith. Mr. Kumar, thank you again for your
    extraordinary candor. You, for years, no matter what the
    country that is being highlighted and focused upon, have always
    given such extremely valuable insights--unvarnished, no matter
    who is in the White House, Republican or Democrat, and I think
    that serves, obviously, the victims and the potential victims
    so extremely well.
        And to break this pattern of complicity, in my opinion,
    that this administration has engaged in with dictatorships, you
    are right, we need to be still hoping maybe against hope that
    this administration will find its voice on human rights and
    stop the rhetorical flourish and be substantive.
        I would just say that I have authored a number of laws on
    human rights, as you know. The international child abduction
    law--it is called the Goldman Act--the Sean and David Goldman
    International Child Abduction Prevention and Return Act--that
    legislation has a report attached to it as well as other
    aspects to it.
        Last year they got it wrong, famously wrong, about Japan
    and other nations. It was due on April 30th. That report is
    late. It will probably come as soon as we go into recess when
    everybody in the House and Senate are out of town. How cynical
    is that?
        The Trafficking Victims Protection Act last year--I am the
    author of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act and the TIP
    Report that comes out annually was due at the beginning of the
    month if not earlier. That has not yet arrived.
        Last year, 14 countries were erroneously placed or given
    passing grades when the TIP office itself thought those 14
    countries should have been what we call Tier 3--as you know,
    egregious violators and gave out inflated grades--in other
    words, bending the rules, breaking the rules I would suggest--
    for political reasons and not human rights criteria.
        The Reuters news organization did an incisive series of
    investigative reports that found that country after country,
    from Cuba to China to Oman--all these countries that should
    have gotten horrible grades got passing grades through this
    administration, contrary to what their own TIP office had said
    they should be given because it was done for political reasons.
        So I find it abhorrent in the extreme that the President
    would go to Vietnam. There is an old saying--thanks, but no
    thanks. If I were a dissident in Vietnam, I would say, no
    thanks, Mr. President--please don't come, as well as the other
    phrase, more harm than good.
        You pointed out, Dr. Thang, that many people were arrested
    and harassed before, then during, and I am sure after as well.
    These people have suffered beatings and torture, directly
    attributable to the President's visit.
        That is unconscionable. The President should be on that
    phone. He should have said to the leadership in Vietnam even
    while there, if you do any more of this then I am out of here--
    I will make an international incident--I stand with the
    oppressed, and I said earlier, not with the oppressor and you
    need to stop it.
        I know there are people from the Vietnamese Government in
    this room. I hope they convey that back to Hanoi. I find it
    appalling.
        If you were in trouble we would be fighting for you, and
    many people who are in government one day find themselves on
    the wrong side of the dictatorship and other, and who do they
    come to? They often come to the democracies including and
    especially the United States.
        A couple questions--I sensed a failure of the White House
    press corps and of the press corps generally to really rein in
    and focus on what was happening to the dissidents. There were a
    few stories--to me, it should have been the main story--that
    the President goes to Vietnam.
        Dissidents, journalists, bloggers, and people fighting for
    environmental protections were rounded up and tortured. That
    should have been the story, and yet it seems not to have been.
        Rabbi Saperstein testified last week before our
    subcommittee and I have a great deal of respect for him as the
    Ambassador-at-Large. But to think that he would meet with Mrs.
    Hong and she'd be beaten as well as others when he meets with
    them, that should have been the absolute red line that once
    crossed all bets were off.
        There should be a rescission of the lifting of the arms
    embargo. The President should do that today. There is nothing
    precluding him from today saying that arms embargo lifting, it
    is not going to happen--I am reversing myself because of the
    egregious human rights abuses being committed.
        So if you could maybe touch on the press corps side of it,
    what we ought to be doing further. We want to get the Frank R.
    Wolf International Religious Freedom Act out of the Senate.
        The Frank R. Wolf International Religious Freedom Act,
    which had 118 cosponsors including my good friend and colleague
    Chairman Rohrabacher, passed overwhelmingly. It is sitting in
    the Senate. My hope is they take it up soon.
        The Vietnam Human Rights Act--we are hoping our committee
    will take it up. I am talking about the full Committee on
    Foreign Affairs. Remember it passed four times.I21Even if it
    dies again in the Senate we will back again next year. We have
    to be as tenacious as the people who are suffering, giving of
    their blood and of their freedom. We could do no less. So we
    need to get that enacted as well as others.
        Ms. Duong, you talked about how they are using visas
    denying the ability to travel. Under the International
    Religious Freedom Act, and Vietnam should have been yesterday,
    but certainly today, designated as a CPC and when I did press
    Rabbi Saperstein on that, the Ambassador-at-Large, last week,
    there are provisions in there to deny visas to those who commit
    crimes against religious believers and they are done in a
    targeted and a calibrated way.
        Unfortunately, even under the Bush administration, there
    was one and that was against Modi, now the head of state for
    India. That tool needs to be used much more aggressively and it
    seems to me Vietnam should get that CPC designation and the
    visa ban needs to be imposed on people who hurt Cao Dai or
    Christians or anyone else.
        So on those few questions, then I yield to my friend, Mr.
    Rohrabacher.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Pastor Loan, you were ministering to the
    Montagnard people? When did you leave the central highlands?
        Pastor Loan. May 2014.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. All right. I spent some time there in 1967
    in Pleiku or near Pleiku anyway--that little French fort. They
    have a little French fort over there. I was operating out of
    there.
        Pastor Loan. I know.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay. We won't go into what's gone on in
    that fort now. Kind of interesting what they did with it.
        But I know that the Montagnards were incredibly brave
    people, and did they suffer disproportionately after the
    Americans left? Those Montagnards who had allied with us, did
    they suffer more than other people in Vietnam?
        Pastor Loan. After the Americans left Vietnam that is when
    they started torturing the Montagnard people such as the people
    who joined force with the American force, helping Americans
    during the Vietnam War. They went hard on them, made them
    suffer or their family, basically, yes, after the Vietnam War.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. I have often wondered what had happened to
    some of the people I knew there and let me just note that the
    Vietnamese people sided with us during the Cold War and we
    walked away and they suffered because of it. However, we can
    make up for that, Mr. Chairman, by trying to be a strong voice
    now in trying to evolve communism out of that repressive
    system.
        (Applause.)
        Let me ask, does anyone here believe--well, first of all,
    in Vietnam now do they still use all these Communist slogans?
    Do they still use the Communist slogans to control the people?
        Does anyone here believe that they really believe in
    Marxism, Leninism? Do the people running the government
    actually believe in Marxist-Leninist principles, which is the
    basis of communism?
        My theory is they don't believe in this at all. They are
    just a bunch of thugs and gangsters and they could not care
    less about trying to create this new man that doesn't have any
    of this Communist propaganda that threatened the world for a
    long time, in fact.
        So they don't believe in it. Here they claim, using
    Communist slogans, yet Mr. Chairman, they are partnering with
    American businessmen in order to exploit their own people.
        Now we have a partnership between the ultimate capitalist
    and these Vietnamese ``leaders,'' the gangsters who run the
    country and then they have the gall to say that they are
    Communist when they are exploiting their own people and they
    are partnering with our own companies.
        Now, I am ashamed of our own companies, the Americans who
    are willing to use a totalitarian control of a people under the
    name of communism in order for them to make a profit. We saw
    that in China as well.
        I was very interested in what you were saying about the
    sermons, that the Communists actually come in and tell you that
    you have to get approval of your sermon before you are able to
    give it.
        I think that is so alien to Americans they could not
    imagine that that is happening in any country. How can anybody
    even imagine that?
        Mr. Chairman, I remember Ronald Reagan stated very clearly,
    he said that one of the biggest problems is that for Americans,
    who take freedom for granted because freedom is invisible.
    Freedom is when you don't have someone having to look at your
    sermon before you give the sermon.
        Freedom is when you don't have to get permission to do
    something before you do it and in dictatorships like in Vietnam
    that repression is there and the people see it every day.
        But Americans don't even know what to look for and that is
    why hearings like this are very important. And let me just note
    that it was very poignant, sir. You said that you are not
    allowed to use the word ``freedom.''
        And let me note, this is--I am sorry for being political
    here but we have a President of the United States who is unable
    to use the words ``radical Islamic terrorist'' and these people
    know that words have meaning and that is why the regime now,
    the gangster regime in Vietnam know that words have meaning.
        They don't want that powerful word there because freedom
    also implies responsibility and accountability because you have
    freedom of the press, which you don't have under this Communist
    system. And so these things all tie together.
        Let us hope that we are a shining light to the world,
    especially a beacon of hope to people who sided with us when
    they thought they were going to help us, and thank you again.
        I do believe that now is the time for the American people
    not just come to partnership with this TPP they are talking
    about.
        How could we possibly go along with an agreement that
    allows these gangsters to possibly be on that commission to
    decide whether or not we are in compliance with the trade
    treaty?
        It is a total elimination of standards and values for
    consideration and we should be instead fighting to make sure
    there are higher standards than just having our businessmen go
    over there and make a profit from basically labor that is not
    permitted to organize and from Vietnamese people who are being
    suppressed and their standard of living is so much lower than
    elsewhere.
        So thank you all very much for testifying today. Thank you,
    Mr. Chairman, for chairing this hearing.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you, Chair Rohrabacher.
        I did ask a few earlier questions and if you could come
    back to those and maybe add answers to them and this one would
    be to Mr. Kumar.
        The U.N. Special Rapporteur on the freedom of religion or
    belief, Bielefeldt, has said--regarding Vietnam--that the
    rights of freedom of religion and belief of such communities
    are grossly violated--we are talking about independent
    religious belief communities--in the face of constant
    surveillance, intimidation, harassment and persecution and, of
    course, Pastor Loan's church at least has some recognition and
    yet he has had such terrible experiences.
        What possibly might the Special Rapporteur do? Secondly, in
    your testimony you talk about the U.N. Convention Against
    Torture, entered into force in February, and you also pointed
    out that the We Are One campaign launched and in March a letter
    went to the U.N. Human Rights Council, so another bite of the
    apple, if you will, of trying to get the U.N. further engaged
    on human rights there.
        There were many signers, 27 local civil society
    organizations and 122 organizations. Is that bearing any fruit
    at the U.N. in terms of their reaction to these terrible
    abuses?
        Mr. Kumar. At the U.N., depending on that day, the Human
    Rights Council member states that are there, it is having some
    impact, especially when the special rapporteurs give their
    reports. So it takes some time.
        But there is some movement in that direction and also to
    the same point, U.S. is not a member at this moment for the
    last 1 year. It is running to be elected so in November we will
    know the results. But more than likely the U.S. will get
    elected.
        So once it gets elected, we want U.S. to take the
    leadership on religious freedom issues in some countries,
    especially Vietnam.
        Mr. Smith. If the United States leads and leads with
    transparency and strength and really speaks truth to power and
    not only affects the dictatorships of the world including the
    one that's being focused on but also, I would think, the other
    democracies who might take their lead from that.
        But as you said, if we lower that bar so low, it is, like,
    everyone just doesn't care or cares a lot less than they would
    have and the dictatorships like China, North Korea, Iran, and
    Cuba, look at that and say, they have abandoned human rights--
    it is all talk--it is all rhetoric.
        And I am wondering, when Raul Castro said to the President
    or said in that meeting, give me the list of prisoners and I
    will release them, he should have said, here is the list.
        He was sitting right there. The State Department has a
    list. We have a list. We have made a trip down to the Embassy
    of Cuba several weeks ago trying to get a visa. I want to go. I
    want to give a list to Raul Castro.
        I was told by the Ambassador here in Washington to the
    United States from Cuba that there are certain parameters that
    would have to be followed about who I could meet with in terms
    of the dissident community. And I said do other congressional
    delegations do that and he said yes.
        So they are all pre-screened. Only certain people can be
    spoken with, or to, in an orchestration of a Potemkin village
    and they come back glowing about how great things are in Cuba.
    Well, we see this happening again and again. So that whole idea
    of human rights leadership--if you would like to answer that.
        Let me also ask you, Pastor Loan, you talked about Deacon
    Ngai being beaten to death. You might give us some additional
    details about that.
        I know it is very painful. But just so we know what
    happened in that incident, you know, so we have it fully on the
    record in terms of that brutality. But maybe you could start,
    Dr. Thang, first.
        Pastor Loan. Deacon Hoang Van Ngai was peaceful. He was a
    deacon and one day he went to his farm and they went to his
    farm and get them--beat them there and brought them to their
    office, their jail, and just tortured him and beat him to
    death.
        After that the girl--the authority did not let anybody see
    the body of the deacon and said that he died not because of
    torture but because he wanted to kill himself, that Deacon Ngai
    wanted to kill himself and did something to himself. That is
    why he died. It's not them.
        And they told me not to say a word about it and threatened
    my life if I did say something against them that testified that
    they were the one that beat Deacon Ngai to death and tortured
    him.
        Mr. Thang. Mr. Chairman, I am very knowledgeable about that
    case. In 2013, Deacon Hoang Van Ngai, a Hmong Christian, who--
    and whose family were relocated from the northern part of
    Vietnam, the mountainous part of Vietnam, all the way down to
    the central part of Vietnam in order to escape persecution in
    the north.
        But he didn't fare any better. He and his brother were
    captured. Actually, they captured--the police captured their
    wives first and held them hostage. So Mr. Ngai and the brother
    had to report themselves to the police in order to set free
    their wives.
        And during detention the police tortured him, forcing him
    to renounce his faith and he refused repeatedly and he got
    tortured repeatedly until he died. And then a few months later
    the entire family--actually, his extended family wrote a
    petition to the government requesting investigation into his
    death.
        Then his cousin, Hoang Van Sang, living in the north, all
    the way in the north, got arrested by the police, taken into
    police custody for 10 days.
        After 10 days of detention the police delivered his corpse
    to his family and told the family that if anyone there should
    speak out about his death, this is the fate that they would
    suffer.
        And therefore about ten families of Mr. Ngai among his
    cousins and brothers had to escape to Thailand and our team in
    Thailand helped them.
        Fortunately, a number of them have already been recognized
    as refugees. And one thing I can say is that in 2014 it was
    Boat People SOS in conjunction with Christian Solidarity
    Worldwide, CSW, we broke the news about his death and not
    Pastor Rmah Loan at all.
        But that pointed to a very disturbing trend here. The
    perpetrators of torture have been treated with impunity in
    Vietnam while those who reported or believed to have reported
    torture and human rights abuses are being persecuted and
    threatened with incarceration, imprisonment, or even death.
        So, clearly, Vietnam is not intent on implementing the
    Convention Against Torture and that kind of policy will only
    encourage more violence and more torture, and this really is
    pointing out that our Government hasn't made public
    condemnation against that kind of practice.
        Mr. Smith. With regards to CPC designation Ambassador
    Saperstein made very clear and they have always had this
    authority that such a designation can be made at any time.
        It doesn't have to wait for an annual report. When the
    information on the ground merits it a designation, either
    improvement or a downgrade--in other words, a CPC designation,
    can be made.
        My question would be in your view should Vietnam receive
    such a designation, especially in light of Ambassador
    Saperstein's visit and Mrs. Hong's brutal beating, simply for
    meeting with the Ambassador-at-Large for international
    religious freedom.
        If that isn't an outrage that is like a tip of the iceberg
    for all the rest of the cruelty meted out by the Vietnamese I
    don't know what is.
        But your thoughts on that?
        Mr. Thang. Mr. Chairman, clearly, it is systematic because
    that is the law. There is a system. It occurs everywhere, not
    just in one place--repeatedly, not just one time.
        It is egregious. Torture is egregious. Forced renouncement
    of faith is egregious. Imprisonment is egregious. And it is
    ongoing. So if we just go by the books, clearly, Vietnam should
    be designated as CPC, no doubt about that.
        I would like to point out one other thing about the U.N.
    Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief. Last year
    in September, we organized the first conference on freedom of
    religion or belief in Southeast Asia and we held it in Bangkok
    in late September. A number of Cao Dai religious leaders and
    dignitaries came to that conference to meet with the U.N.
    Special Rapporteur.
        And when they returned to Vietnam they were placed under
    the visa travel ban, and that's what Ms. Duong just mentioned.
    So that is very outrageous.
        There is an agreement between the Vietnamese Government and
    the U.N. Human Rights Council. That is, people who talk, who
    report, who speak to or who make reports to the U.N. Special
    Rapporteur should not be mistreated or punished.
        Mr. Smith. I will just conclude. Pastor Loan, when you
    talked about and testified about how the government controls
    the words that can be used it reminds me of--there was a
    National Geographic documentary about this eye doctor who went
    to Pyongyang and was actually helping people with cataracts and
    other eye problems and many went from being almost blind to
    being able to see.
        Kim Jong Il was the dictator then and his picture was in
    this mass meeting room where everybody gathered to thank the
    doctor, and the thanks to the doctor was slim to almost none
    and their praise and worship of the dictator just eclipsed all
    else.
        It was the government--the cult of personality--and
    obviously when you have an insecurity on the part of a
    government like Vietnam where they have to have the thank yous
    first to them, then to God and anyone else, and all the other
    wordsmithing that they impose upon even those that are
    recognized churches it just shows a gross insecurity on the
    part of that government.
        A psychiatrist could have a field day with that, it would
    seem to me. Dr. Thang, did you want to comment on it?
        Mr. Thang. Just about that, I would like to remind everyone
    here that what is happening with Pastor Rmah Loan's church is
    actually about a church that has been legally recognized by the
    Government of Vietnam.
        His church is probably the largest Christian church in
    central highlands, and if there is a Department of State
    delegation or USCIRF delegation or Member of Congress visiting
    Vietnam, they most likely would be invited to go to that church
    to showcase how much freedom of religion there is in Vietnam.
        And yet, behind closed doors, that is what is happening. A
    member of that church--a key member of that church--that is
    Deacon Hoang Van Ngai--was tortured to death because he refused
    to renounce his faith and then his pastor was prohibited from
    making any mention about his death, and then family members
    have been tracked down and threatened to the point they had to
    flee their home villages.
        And now the pastor is in the U.S. fearing persecution or
    even imprisonment and death upon return to Vietnam. So that is
    how a state-sanctioned church is being treated, let alone
    unrecognized independent religious communities just like the
    Cao Dai group here that she's represented.
        Mr. Smith. Before I ask you if you have anything final you
    would like to say, I would like to recognize in the audience
    two very distinguished persons.
        First, Joseph Rees, Ambassador Rees, our first Ambassador
    to East Timor, or Timor-Leste, who also served many years ago
    as chief of staff and chief counsel for the International
    Operations and Human Rights Subcommittee.
        In fact, when we were doing many of the initiatives to try
    to rescue those people who were going to be sent back during
    the Comprehensive Plan of Action, working with Dr. Thang,
    Joseph played a pivotal role in ensuring that those 20,000-plus
    people came here as well as other things.
        Also, Anh ``Joseph'' Cao is here as well, a former
    Congressman and good friend, first Vietnamese-American
    Congressman, and was a great leader when he was here. We miss
    him, but it is great to see him and I know he works alongside
    Boat People SOS as well.
        Would any of you like to say anything before we conclude?
        Pastor Loan. I know for sure if I return back to Vietnam
    there will be punishment for me for sure. So I would like to
    ask to stay here.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you.
        Pastor Loan. Would you help me get that? Thank you for your
    time.
        Mr. Smith. Thank you. The hearing is adjourned, and I thank
    you again.
        [Whereupon, at 3:31 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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