    [House Hearing, 114 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

              EGYPT: CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR U.S. POLICY

    =======================================================================

                                     HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                        THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA

                                     OF THE

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                 JUNE 15, 2016

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 114-194

                                   __________

            Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/
                                      or
                           http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/

                                    ___________

                            U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    20-455PDF                      WASHINGTON : 2016

    ________________________________________________________________________________________
    For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office,
    http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center,
    U.S. Government Publishing Office. Phone 202-512-1800, or 866-512-1800 (toll-free).
    E-mail, gpo@custhelp.com.

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                     EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman
    CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey     ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
    ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida         BRAD SHERMAN, California
    DANA ROHRABACHER, California         GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
    STEVE CHABOT, Ohio                   ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey
    JOE WILSON, South Carolina           GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
    MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas             THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
    TED POE, Texas                       BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
    MATT SALMON, Arizona                 KAREN BASS, California
    DARRELL E. ISSA, California          WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
    TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania             DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
    JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          ALAN GRAYSON, Florida
    MO BROOKS, Alabama                   AMI BERA, California
    PAUL COOK, California                ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California
    RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas            GRACE MENG, New York
    SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania            LOIS FRANKEL, Florida
    RON DeSANTIS, Florida                TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii
    MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina         JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
    TED S. YOHO, Florida                 ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
    CURT CLAWSON, Florida                BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania
    SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee
    REID J. RIBBLE, Wisconsin
    DAVID A. TROTT, Michigan
    LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
    DANIEL DONOVAN, New York

         Amy Porter, Chief of Staff      Thomas Sheehy, Staff Director

                   Jason Steinbaum, Democratic Staff Director

                                     ------

                Subcommittee on the Middle East and North Africa

                     ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida, Chairman
    STEVE CHABOT, Ohio                   THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
    JOE WILSON, South Carolina           GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
    DARRELL E. ISSA, California          BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
    RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas            DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
    RON DeSANTIS, Florida                ALAN GRAYSON, Florida
    MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina         GRACE MENG, New York
    TED S. YOHO, Florida                 LOIS FRANKEL, Florida
    CURT CLAWSON, Florida                BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania
    DAVID A. TROTT, Michigan
    LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                   WITNESSES

    The Honorable Mark Green, president, International Republican
      Institute......................................................     7
    Mr. Mokhtar Awad, research fellow, Program on Extremism, Center
      for Cyber and Homeland Security, George Washington University..    17
    Ms. Amy Hawthorne, deputy director for research, Project on
      Middle East Democracy..........................................    28

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    The Honorable Mark Green: Prepared statement.....................     9
    Mr. Mokhtar Awad: Prepared statement.............................    19
    Ms. Amy Hawthorne: Prepared statement............................    30

                                    APPENDIX

    Hearing notice...................................................    60
    Hearing minutes..................................................    61
    The Honorable David Cicilline, a Representative in Congress from
      the State of Rhode Island: Prepared statement..................    62

              EGYPT: CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR U.S. POLICY

                                  ----------

                            WEDNESDAY, JUNE 15, 2016

                         House of Representatives,

               Subcommittee on the Middle East and North Africa,

                         Committee on Foreign Affairs,

                                Washington, DC.

        The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m., in
    room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ileana Ros-
    Lehtinen (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. The subcommittee will come to order.
        After recognizing myself and Mr. Deutch, the ranking
    member, for 5 minutes each for our opening statements, I will
    then recognize other members seeking recognition for 1 minute.
    We will then hear from our witnesses. And you will notice an
    empty seat, but she is coming right over, getting through
    security.
        Without objection, the witnesses' prepared statements will
    be made a part of the record. Members may have 5 days to insert
    statements and questions for the record subject to the length
    limitation in the rules.
        And the Chair now recognizes herself for 5 minutes.
        This is the third hearing of our subcommittee that we have
    had on Egypt in a little over a year, demonstrating the
    importance of and our subcommittee's commitment to Egypt's role
    in a volatile region, as well as the concern of our members
    that they have on current U.S. policy toward our ally.
        The political, economic, and security challenges that Egypt
    is facing right now, they are numerous, they are
    interdependent. It is extremely difficult, for example, for
    President Sisi to make necessary structural reforms to Egypt's
    economy without potentially undermining the fragile political
    support he is leaning on to bring much-needed stability to the
    country.
        Conversely, if these economic reforms are not made soon, we
    may see a return of the unrest that we saw on Egyptian streets
    not too long ago. And it is in this context that Egypt is
    facing growing security threats from an expanding ISIS and its
    Sinai Province affiliate, from al-Qaeda-linked groups, from
    militias, from extremists in Libya, and from particularly
    violent factions of the Muslim Brotherhood. Sinai Province has
    formed terrorist cells that are targeting both Egyptian and
    Israeli military personnel and civilians, and has already
    killed hundreds of Egyptian soldiers is continuing to target
    the peacekeeping operations or the MFO, Multinational Force of
    Observers in the Sinai, prompting the Pentagon to reposition
    U.S. troops and reconsider its presence there.
        There is more and more evidence that ISIS is attempting to
    link its operations in the Sinai and eastern Egypt to its
    presence in the Western Desert that sits along the extremely
    porous border with Libya. And there are growing reports of
    increased activity in southern Egypt and the Nile Valley,
    including in greater Cairo, which has seen IEDs and shootings
    like the one that claimed the lives of eight Egyptian policemen
    last month.
        While Egypt has been trying to keep up with these threats,
    it is increasingly clear that Egypt must also adopt a
    counterinsurgency approach that will allow it to get a handle
    on the problem before it gets worse.
        While the security situation remains a high priority, I am
    extremely concerned by the government's attitude toward human
    rights, its crackdowns on civil society, its quashing of
    dissent. I was disappointed to see that the government froze
    the assets of yet another NGO just yesterday as part of an
    ongoing case which began in 2011 and targeted U.S. NGOs like
    IRI, whose president joins us here today.
        Forty-three NGO workers in this case were unjustly
    convicted in 2013, as we all remember, and I continue to call
    on President Sisi to do everything in his power, including
    working with the Egyptian Parliament and with the judicial
    system to find a way to pardon these workers as soon as
    possible. The government needs to find a way to open up civil
    society and allow Egyptians to participate and thrive in public
    life or risk exacerbating the very problems it is trying to
    avoid.
        In Egypt, the economy is perhaps the biggest challenge of
    all. Infusions of cash from the Gulf States, especially from
    Saudi Arabia, as well as loans from the World Bank, the IMF,
    and others, have managed to keep the economy afloat for the
    time being. But these investments aren't likely to stimulate
    growth in the long term, and the government has to make
    difficult structural reforms like reducing the bloated public
    payroll and passing the long-promised value-added tax.
    Unemployment, especially among youth, remains high, and around
    60 percent of the population is poor and living on subsidies.
        One bright spot on the economy horizon has been the
    Egyptian-American Enterprise Fund, which Congress authorized in
    2012 and has been successfully investing in Egypt's private
    sector to create jobs and support sustainable development.
        The Enterprise Fund, as with all the aid that Congress has
    appropriated, is an example of how much the United States wants
    to help Egypt as both an ally and a strong supporter of peace
    in that troubled region. But the Egyptian Government also needs
    to help us help them, and that includes allowing our Economic
    Support Funds, or ESF monies, to be programmed. As of March 31,
    there is a backlog of approximately $900 million in ESF for
    Egypt because the government has held up permits for our
    implementing partners on everything from democracy and
    governance to education and health care.
        That is why I was happy to sign a letter this month,
    alongside Chairman Royce, Ranking Member Engel, and the co-
    chairs of the Tunisia Caucus, asking the Secretary of State to
    reprogram up to $20 million of this money for Tunisia. This is
    not meant to be a slight against Egypt, but it makes little
    sense to continue letting these funds sit in the pipeline when
    they can be spent somewhere else. Someplace like Tunisia, which
    is in desperate need of the funds and is willing to let us
    help.
        Egypt is an important strategic ally that is struggling on
    a number of fronts, and as we discuss the challenges and
    opportunities for U.S. policy here today, I continue to believe
    that the best way to help is through encouragement and
    assistance as a friend.
        And with that, I am pleased to yield to the ranking member,
    Mr. Deutch of Florida.
        Mr. Deutch. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chairman, and
    thanks for our witnesses for appearing today.
        First, I want to thank you, Madam Chairman, and Mr.
    Connolly for commissioning a series of GAO reports on our
    assistance to Egypt. The most recent report issued in April
    highlighted some of the serious challenges faced by Department
    of Defense and the Department of State in securing compliance
    from the Egyptian Government on end-use monitoring of our
    assistance. And I find this troubling. When we work together in
    partnership with the government, that government should not be
    hindering our ability to ensure that our assistance is going to
    where it is meant to go and doing what it is meant to do.
        Second, I want to unequivocally state that I value the
    U.S.-Egypt relationship. I value Egypt's role in the region. I
    want to see the Egyptian people prosper. And I particularly
    want to thank the Egyptian Foreign Ministry for the condolences
    it sent to the victims of the horrific terror attack in the
    chairman and my home State just days ago.
        But it is becoming increasingly difficult to discuss the
    U.S.-Egypt relationship outside its security context, and so
    while I have supported and I continue to support the Sisi
    government and the President's commitment to fighting terror
    and keeping peace in the region, I am quite troubled by the
    direction of the country when it comes to civil society and
    human rights. I do understand that it can be challenging to
    balance security and human rights.
        Egypt is coming out of a period of great turmoil. As
    Egypt's leaders look around the region, they see numerous
    threats to stability, and there is no doubt that we share our
    Egyptian partners' commitment to preventing ISIS and its
    affiliates from dominating Sinai, but I urge our friends not to
    silence the discourse on human rights. Engage with civil
    society, democracy, and human right activists. Work together.
    Have the tough conversations. A lack of inclusive governing
    will yield greater instability.
        One area I am deeply concerned about is the foreign funding
    of the NGOs' case. Now, this subcommittee has held many
    hearings on the arrest, trial, and conviction of the 43 NGO
    employees. Mr. Green, you have been present for several of
    those hearings. The idea that the government is now going to
    reopen the NGO trial and add new defendants is deeply
    disturbing. The only reason this case should be reopened is to
    pardon each and every one of the 43 individuals. And I want to
    commend the chair for continued advocacy on behalf of those who
    were so wrongfully convicted in this case.
        President Sisi has been tasked with the difficult job of
    reviving Egypt's economy after years of mismanagement. I want
    to commend him for taking seriously recommendations for reform
    from the World Bank and the IMF. Last year, the economy grew at
    its fastest rate since 2010. Buoyed by generous financial
    support from the gulf, Egypt has found some economic relief.
    But diminished foreign currency reserves are making it
    increasingly difficult to import fuel and food, and water
    shortages are beginning to impact rural areas. The government
    must continue to work with international financial institutions
    to push ahead with necessary reforms to meet these challenges.
        On the security front, Egypt faces dangerous threats from
    the Sinai. I commend the Egypt military for its commitment to
    rooting out terrorism and to taking seriously the need to
    improve government services and infrastructure for the people
    of Sinai.
        I extend condolences to the dozens of Egyptian soldiers and
    their families who have lost their lives fighting this
    terrorism, and President Sisi deserves to be commended for
    speaking out against violent Islamic extremism.
        In addition, I want to thank the Egyptian Government for
    its continued cooperation with Israel in the Sinai and its
    continuing efforts to prevent Hamas from using tunnels to
    smuggle dangerous weapons to Gaza.
        President Sisi has made clear his interest in brokering
    peace between Israel and the Palestinians, and both have
    welcomed his involvement in the process with trust-building on
    both sides. He can be a strong voice for two states living side
    by side in peace and security.
        Our $1.3 billion of security assistance to Egypt is
    critical in the fight against ISIS both in the Sinai and in
    Libya. The fragile political situation in Libya has created
    space for ISIS to use Libya as a training ground for its
    fighters. To that end, assisting Egypt in controlling its 1,100
    kilometer border with Libya is essential to preventing ISIS
    fighters from launching cross-border attacks or using Egypt as
    a transit point to the greater Middle East.
        I applaud the administration's recognition of the need to
    refocus our assistance on counterterrorism. The threats facing
    Egypt are not countered with tanks and planes alone but with a
    strong intelligence apparatus and regional and bilateral
    intelligence-sharing, and we have a real opportunity here to
    help Egypt confront and root out terrorism.
        I want to see the people of Egypt succeed. I want to see
    the future of Egypt that so many millions poured into the
    streets demanding. I believe President Sisi wants his country
    and his people to thrive, but to do so will take real political
    will to confront terrorism to reform the economy and to give
    space for civil society to grow and to thrive. These are not
    easy tasks, nor are they accomplished without the support of
    the United States.
        And I look to our witnesses today to help us better
    understand how we can be an effective partner for Egypt while
    continuing to advocate for the basic human rights and values
    that this country was founded upon. And with that, I yield
    back.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Well said. Thank you so much, Mr. Deutch.
        I will now recognize members for statements that they would
    like to make.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. Thank you, Chairman Ileana
    Ros-Lehtinen and Ranking Member Deutch, for holding this
    important hearing.
        Over the last decade, Egypt has been faced with political
    and social instability. Egypt has been and will continue to be
    a valued ally in an unstable region in support of American
    interests and worldwide interests in the global war on
    terrorism. I am grateful my son Julian served with the Army
    National Guard in Egypt with Operation Bright Star, an
    indication of U.S.-Egyptian cooperation. And he was impressed
    by the talented citizens of Egypt.
        I believe that we need to continue our military and
    economic support while we closely monitor whether the money
    that is being provided is wisely spent. Egypt continues to face
    a growing threat from Islamic terrorists, most recently, the
    Egypt Air flight that was destroyed in the eastern
    Mediterranean Sea to the Metrojet flight that exploded over the
    Sinai on October 31, killing 209 Russian tourists.
        Egypt exists within a very dangerous neighborhood, and it
    is very critical that we maintain our support, also maintaining
    our moral responsibilities, promoting IRI as a very positive
    NGO.
        I look forward to hearing from our witnesses regarding how
    the United States can help ensure that Egypt is back on track
    to be a success for prosperity for its citizens.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you very much, and congratulations
    on your son's military service. It is a long tradition there.
    Good for you, Joe.
        Mr. Connolly of Virginia.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you for
    our collaboration on the GAO report our friend Deutch cited.
        I think, you know, the relationship with Egypt is a
    critical relationship. It has got to be one we work out. But
    American patience is not unlimited, and the Egyptian leverage
    on the relationship is also not unlimited. There is a desire in
    this country and a growing desire in this body to hold the
    current Egyptian Government accountable for human rights
    violations, accountable for security infringements, accountable
    for how it treats civil society, especially the NGOs we have
    worked with.
        I met with a lot of those NGOs when I was in Cairo, and I
    think the Egyptian Government was counting on the United States
    once the Americans got out of the country to frankly wash their
    hands of the Egyptian staff and volunteers of these NGOs. That
    is not the case, and I hope this hearing makes that very clear.
    And I know Ambassador Green is going to make that point. We
    stand by those brave young men and women who were trying to
    make for a better society in their own country, and I know we
    are going to hear more about that in this hearing. Thank you,
    Madam Chairman.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you, Mr. Connolly. Thank you very
    much.
        Thank you, Mr. Rohrabacher. We are pleased to recognize you
    for any opening statement you might make.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you very much for holding this
    hearing, and I appreciate you and the ranking member and the
    work that you have put into this.
        Let me just note that I am a co-chairman with the Egyptian
    Caucus, and as such I have been to Egypt a number of times in
    recent days. And let me just state for the record that I
    believe that President el-Sisi and the democratic people in
    Egypt who want to have a legitimate democratic government are
    under attack by forces that would murder them.
        So whatever we are doing when we are talking about Egypt,
    let's understand we are talking about people who are fighting
    forces that would murder them and create a caliphate that would
    be allied with terrorists. In fact, if President el-Sisi and
    his efforts are defeated, you could expect a collapse of
    resistance to this radical Islamic terrorist movement that
    threatens the world.
        They are at an equivalent of where we were at immediately
    after Pearl Harbor. The fact is what did we do when we were
    under attack? Yes, there were things that we would never
    tolerate in our society today. We put large numbers of American
    citizens, Japanese-Americans in camps. Yes, that did not
    indicate what type of government, what type of country we had,
    but it did indicate that we were at war with an enemy that had
    murdered our own people and would continue to do so.
        That is what is going on in Egypt today. Those people are
    on the front lines. President el-Sisi and his democratic allies
    and the moderate Muslim community there are under attack by the
    very same terrorists that would again create a caliphate and
    threaten the entire world. We have faced this terrorism here.
    We have faced it in Orlando. We have faced it in San
    Bernardino. We have faced it at the Boston Marathon.
        This radical Islamic terrorism threat to the world is
    something that we need to recognize. And we need to recognize
    that people like President el-Sisi and the good people of Egypt
    are on the front lines, and we need to back them as much as we
    can so that we can--because we know if they lose, we lose.
        Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you, Mr. Rohrabacher.
        Ms. Frankel of Florida.
        Ms. Frankel. Madam Chair, I thank the witnesses for being
    here, and I would like to hear what they have to say so I yield
    back to you.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you very much, Ms. Frankel.
        And, Dr. Yoho of Florida?
        Mr. Yoho. No comment.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Okay. Thank you so much to our witnesses.
    First, we are pleased to welcome back a great friend of our
    subcommittee, Ambassador Mark Green, a former colleague of
    ours. He is the president of the International Republican
    Institute. He is a former U.S. Ambassador to Tanzania and
    served as a Member of Congress representing Wisconsin's Eighth
    District from '97 to 2007. It is always a delight to see you,
    Mr. Ambassador. I love following you on Twitter.
        Next, we welcome Mr.--I am going to try my best--Mokhtar
    Awad, who is a research fellow in the Program on Extremism at
    George Washington University's Center for Cyber and Homeland
    Security. Prior to this, Mr. Awad worked as a Research
    Associate at the Center for American Progress. We welcome you
    to our subcommittee, Mr. Awad.
        And lastly, we welcome Ms. Amy Hawthorne, who is the deputy
    director for research at the Project on Middle East Democracy.
    Prior to this, Ms. Hawthorne served as a resident senior fellow
    with the Atlantic Council's Middle East Program where she
    focused on U.S. policy toward Egypt. We welcome you also, Ms.
    Hawthorne.
        We are pleased to have all of you here today. As I had
    said, your statements will be made a part of the record, and we
    will now hear your synthesized version starting with our friend
    Mark.

    STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MARK GREEN, PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL
                          REPUBLICAN INSTITUTE

        Ambassador Green. Thank you, Madam Chair, Ranking Member
    Deutch, and members of the committee. I appreciate the
    opportunity to testify. And I also want to thank you for the
    tremendous support that you have shown, that all of you have
    shown relating to Egypt's indefensible NGO foreign funding
    trial.
        As you know and as has been alluded to, Egypt wrongfully
    and outrageously convicted 43 innocent staff from IRI, NDI,
    Freedom House, and others. And I am grateful that you continue
    to make pardons for these victims your highest priority in
    discussions with the top Egyptian officials.
        One year ago, Madam Chair, I testified on Tunisia's
    democratic tradition. I offered optimism about the progress it
    was making and suggested that it deserved additional support. I
    wish I could be similarly optimistic here today, but sadly, I
    believe that Egypt is moving on an uncertain and dangerous
    trajectory.
        There is no doubt, as many of you have said, that Egypt
    remains a very important ally and strategic partner for
    America's interests in that part of the world, but there is
    also little doubt, however, that the problems that are in Egypt
    continue to get worse. Polarization and the threat of extremism
    are on the rise. President Sisi's counterterrorism campaign is
    making precious little headway in my opinion while risking even
    greater alienation of the local population. Instead of forging
    an effective effort to root out extremists and extremism, I
    worry that the government's primary response seems to be an
    even greater crackdown on dissent.
        There has been an increase in extrajudicial forced
    disappearances, over 1,800 reported cases in 2015 alone. Mass
    trials and collective convictions based on vague charges of
    harming national interests have become the norm.
        Madam Chair, it is my strong belief in IRI's long
    experience that counterterrorism and military operations alone
    will never be a sufficient response to genuine real extremist
    threats that they face. Egypt needs to enlist the help of its
    civil society, not crush it. It should avoid measures like its
    2013 anti-protest law that curtails citizens' ability to
    participate peacefully in public meetings or its 2015
    counterterrorism law that punishes journalists who stray from
    official government narratives. President Sisi has defended the
    crackdown on civil society calling it fourth generation
    warfare, the notion that media and civil society groups that
    aren't lockstep with the government are somehow waging war
    against the Egypt State.
        Madam Chair, history warns us of the dangers when
    conspiracy theory becomes official policy. Just ask those 43
    wrongly convicted NGO workers who are still unable to travel
    freely in some parts of the world, and the Egyptian staff who
    have been cut off from their families over these years. Now,
    the Egyptian Government appears to be doubling down on its
    approach. As was mentioned, it has reopened and apparently
    widened the NGO case with as many as 47 Egyptian and
    international organizations now being threatened with criminal
    prosecution.
        But despite this bleak picture, IRI and other international
    organizations still hope that Egypt will one day reclaim its
    strong civil society and citizen-responsive government
    traditions. At IRI we continue to work with peaceful democratic
    Egyptians through programs taking place offshore in third
    country locations. We still hope to assist civil society and
    political party reformers to improve governance and to combat
    the alienation and anger that extremism depends upon. We are
    proud that, despite the many obvious challenges, a recent
    independent evaluation of our Egypt programs found promising
    results and reason for continued engagement.
        Madam Chair, I respectfully offer the following
    recommendations for the subcommittee to consider: First, since
    Egyptian obstinacy has apparently created a backlog of U.S.-
    Egypt assistance funds to the tune of $700 million or more, I
    would urge the U.S. to redirect much of that backlog to places
    where significant democratic strides are being made, places
    like Tunisia.
        Second, the funds that are going to Egypt I believe a
    significant portion of that should be used to engage democratic
    actors and build their skills for a future democratic
    breakthrough.
        And then finally, U.S. administration officials, Members of
    Congress, and staff at every level should continue to raise the
    foreign funding case at every opportunity. We should make it
    clear that reopening the case and expanding it is
    unconditionally unacceptable. And of course, continue to insist
    that the only solution to the 2013 verdict is full pardons by
    President Sisi.
        Madam Chair, a recent Economist article suggested that if
    Egypt does well, it can lift the region, whereas its collapse
    would represent a threat to the entire Middle East and Europe.
    I would add the United States to that list as well.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        [The prepared statement of Ambassador Green follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                              ----------

        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Very good. Thank you, Ambassador Green.
        Mr. Awad.

      STATEMENT OF MR. MOKHTAR AWAD, RESEARCH FELLOW, PROGRAM ON
       EXTREMISM, CENTER FOR CYBER AND HOMELAND SECURITY, GEORGE
                         WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY

        Mr. Awad. Madam Chairperson, Ranking Member Deutch, members
    of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to be here
    to talk about security in Egypt. In fact, I have recently
    returned from a long research trip to that country where we
    have met with colleagues, top security officials, and went to
    areas like the Western Desert and Suez Canal area to see the
    situation there on the ground for ourselves. I am going to
    provide a threat assessment of the situation in Egypt with some
    relevant recommendations.
        The most important thing to understand is that Egypt is
    facing what is the deadliest and most lethal, complex
    insurgency in its modern history. Since the Muslim Brotherhood
    was ousted from power in July 2013, at least 900 security
    service members lost their lives to an array of terrorist
    groups seeking to topple the government. The threat in Egypt
    comes from three different geographic theaters and three
    different types of groups.
        First, there is northeastern Sinai where Islamic State-
    affiliated militants wage insurgency against the Egyptian
    Government and poses severe threat to Egypt and Israel.
        The second is in the Nile Valley, the heart of Egypt, where
    97 percent of the population lives. There, also Islamic State-
    affiliated elements, some al-Qaeda elements, although small in
    number, and other violent Islamist groups suspected to be
    affiliated with some members inside the Muslim Brotherhood,
    also seek to topple the government there.
        Finally, the Western Desert with the vast border with
    Libya, the Islamic State is attempting to build a presence
    there.
        Let me focus a little bit on the situation in Sinai. You
    will find in my written testimony detailed information on the
    Nile Valley and the Western Desert. The situation in the Sinai
    continues to be quite challenging. Since the fall of 2014, the
    local jihadist group called Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis, or the
    Champions or Supporters of Jerusalem, saw its capabilities
    increase significantly as it pledged allegiance to the Islamic
    State. Since then, they were able to launch large-scale
    defensives on the ground, culminating in a July 1, 2015, attack
    that attempted to hold parts of the city called Sheikh Zuweid
    in North Sinai. Only after a 12-hour-plus battle and the
    intervention of Egyptian F-16s was the jihadist threat
    neutralized.
        Since then, Egyptians launched a massive counteroffensive
    that has had some successes. It should be noted that the
    jihadists in North Sinai do not control any population centers.
    Also, their areas of operation have largely been contained.
    Despite these successes, they have shifted their tactics and
    have used more IEDs and focused on terrorist attacks like the
    downing of the Russian airliner in October 2015. As a result,
    the first quarter of 2016 is the deadliest 3 months on record
    for Egyptian troops in North Sinai. The frequency of attacks
    has also increased, but again, they have not been back to the
    same quality of capabilities that they had prior to July.
        Quickly, on the Nile Valley and the Western Desert, the
    most important things to understand there is that the situation
    is comparatively better compared to the Sinai. With that being
    said, although the government has had great successes in the
    Nile Valley, cracking down on some of the violent Islamists
    connected to the Muslim Brotherhood and al-Qaeda, the Islamic
    state has recently been attempting to bring armed insurgency
    closer to Cairo. However, these attempts have been thus far
    checked.
        And finally, of course, in the Western Desert smugglers
    continue to operate, and as pressure increases against the
    Islamic State in Libya, they are more likely going to look more
    into the Western Desert to find ways to entrench themselves
    there.
        Finally, let me offer some recommendations. I think for
    these reasons a continued security relationship with Egypt is
    of course important for U.S. strategic interests in the region.
    However, the relationship should reflect the changing nature of
    the challenges Egypt faces in confronting asymmetric threats
    from non-state actors and advance U.S. interests. The Obama
    administration announced that starting in Fiscal Year 2018 the
    U.S. will channel FMF funds toward procurement in four
    categories. Counterterrorism, border, maritime, and Sinai
    security is a good basis for the future of the FMF program.
    This pathway for updating U.S.-Egypt cooperation is sound and
    will require close coordination and support between Congress
    and the administration in order to implement it effectively.
        The U.S.-Egypt relationship requires new anchors that go
    beyond security but also requires updating the security
    relationship. It should be built on mutual trust, respect, and
    frankness. The United States should encourage Cairo to
    implement a comprehensive counterinsurgency strategy in the
    Sinai that integrates technologies and training with economic
    development and tribal outreach in order to effectively defeat
    terrorist elements, all while minimizing collateral damage.
    Both governments should ensure that defense officials are able
    to discuss issues related to counterinsurgency frankly and be
    granted the access necessary to adequately provide training and
    assistance.
        More cooperation is also needed with Egypt's General
    Intelligence Directorate and to the Ministry of Interior,
    specifically the State Security. These institutions are key
    actors in Egypt's fight against terror and thus warrant this
    further engagement.
        Egypt should implement a comprehensive counterterrorism and
    countering violent extremism strategy that in part cracks down
    on human rights abuses and improves conditions in prisons to
    combat radicalization. All assistant should be on the basis of
    advancing U.S. interests in providing the necessary weapons and
    training that can help Egypt address its security challenges in
    ways that align with U.S. interests and values.
        Finally, U. S. security cooperation and assistance with
    Egypt should be conditioned on Egypt's performance in the
    security field itself instead of political and economic
    reforms. I look forward to getting into more details in the
    Q&A. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Awad follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                  ----------

        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Mr. Awad, thank you so much.
        Ms. Hawthorne.

     STATEMENT OF MS. AMY HAWTHORNE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR RESEARCH,
                    PROJECT ON MIDDLE EAST DEMOCRACY

        Ms. Hawthorne. Good morning. Thank you, Madam Chair,
    Ranking Member Deutch, distinguished members of the committee.
    I am honored to be here today to testify alongside my esteemed
    colleagues.
        I would also like to commend the chair and Congressman
    Connolly for their leadership on a series of crucially
    important GAO reports that have shed light on U.S. aid to Egypt
    and for the subcommittee's leadership on holding regular
    hearings on Egypt over the past few years.
        With your permission, I will summarize the key points of my
    written testimony.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Please do. Thank you so much.
        Ms. Hawthorne. Egypt remains important to the United States
    for all the reasons that have been mentioned this morning, but
    nearly 3 years after now-President el-Sisi led the military
    overthrow of Mohamed Morsi's government, Egypt is headed in the
    wrong direction with regard to political developments, its
    economy, and its security situation, and in many ways it has
    become a more difficult partner for the United States. At
    present, relations with Egypt present more challenges than
    opportunities for the United States.
        With regard to the political situation, as detailed in fact
    sheets that I attached to my testimony, there is an intense
    campaign of repression, vast human rights violations and a
    political crackdown that is far worse than anything that took
    place under Mubarak or under former President Morsi. I will
    spare you the details, but suffice it to say that thousands of
    Egyptians have been locked up, and conditions in detention
    centers and prisons are thought to involve abuse and torture
    and the potential radicalization of inmates who are held in
    these conditions. Civil society and independent human rights
    groups are under an intense campaign of repression. Blasphemy
    cases and other prosecution of Egyptians for expressing their
    opinions and their views, including against Coptic Christians,
    are at record highs in Sisi's Egypt.
        As the leading human rights activist Gamal Eid wrote in a
    recent article in the New York Times, when independent,
    political activity and civil society groups are crushed, you
    run the risk in Egypt of moving toward a situation that was
    similar to that which existed in Qaddafi's Libya or Saddam
    Hussein's Iraq in which there are no mediating institutions, no
    spaces for citizens to gather peacefully and organize and
    mobilize against their government, and this creates a society
    that is far more brutal and far less prepared to deal with
    turbulence and conflict and risks falling into violence.
        On the economic front, although President Sisi has a spoken
    often of improving the economy and the Egyptian Government has
    taken some important steps, Egypt remains mired in economic
    problems. By many economic indicators, the economy is getting
    worse, and most concerning, I don't see a clear sign coming
    from the Egyptian leadership about a sound economic policy to
    turn the situation around.
        I would also note that one of the key features of Sisi's
    Egypt, which is an increased role for the military in the
    civilian economy, is completely antithetical to the development
    of the competitive, free-market economy that many Egyptians and
    the U.S. would like to see developed.
        With regard to security, my colleague Mokhtar Awad has
    described the situation far better than I ever could, but I
    would just like to underscore that there are genuine concerns
    that Sisi's strategy of combating the real terrorist threat
    that Egypt faces runs the risk of being so broad and
    indiscriminate and brutal that it may actually worsen the very
    problem it is trying to address by expanding the pool of
    Egyptians aggrieved against their government and susceptible to
    radicalization.
        With regard to U.S. relations, although President Sisi has
    often said that he seeks a strong relationship and a strategic
    relationship with the United States, the actions of many in the
    Egyptian Government suggest otherwise. This is a government
    that has refused to pardon innocent American citizens who have
    been wrongly convicted on trumped up charges relating to their
    work with NGOs; that puts American citizens on trial; that
    detains American citizens and deports them from the airport
    with no explanation; that constantly features negative images
    of and attacks on the United States and its media; and that, as
    the recent GAO report on security assistance pointed out,
    refuses to cooperate on many key aspects of U.S. security
    assistance.
        We need to work with Egypt. Although it is not easy, the
    United States must continue to partner with this government
    while showing strong signs of concern about the trajectory of
    the country.
        In the question-and-answer, I would be pleased to describe
    some details about the ways I think we should restructure our
    ESF and our FMF program in order to develop a course correction
    with regard to our policies in Egypt. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Hawthorne follows:]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                  ----------

        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much. Excellent testimony
    from all three. I will start the question-and-answer period.
        Ambassador Green, I completely agree that if the Egyptian
    Government keeps stifling dissent and does not allow for more
    citizen participation, it will likely end up destabilizing the
    country even further.
        You mentioned that your legal team had looked into the
    Egyptian government's authority to issue pardons to the 43 NGO
    staff, and that you had concluded that it is completely within
    its power to do so. And when I have raised this issue with
    Egyptian officials, I have been told that the biggest obstacle
    is the judiciary's ongoing review and then reform of the penal
    code, which would then need to be passed by the Parliament.
    What is your understanding of the judiciary's role in this
    process, and how can we help Egypt to move these pardons
    forward and to start seeing civil society as an ally in its
    development and not as a problem?
        Ambassador Green. Thank you, Madam Chair, for that
    question. First off, as you alluded to, our best legal
    information is that they can move immediately to issue pardons.
    I would note, as some of you have pointed out, they do not seem
    to have a barrier in reopening the case in adding defendants.
    It is only pardoning the convicted that they seem to hesitate
    over. And again, we simply don't see legal barriers to it.
    There are more political obstacles that they keep raising.
        Madam Chair, I think the best answer to the question that
    you posed about how to move this forward is really, quite
    frankly, to continue doing what you have been doing and others
    on the committee have been doing and that is raise this every
    single time. Egypt is an important ally, and as an important
    ally, we need to speak frankly and make it very clear to them
    at every single possible opportunity that this matters to us.
    Their treatment of American citizens, as well as citizens of
    their own country, but particularly American citizens is
    something that matters to us and we will not let stand, so I
    think making that case over and over again.
        And then finally just on the logical point, as some of you
    have said, they are making it hard for us to help them. We wish
    to see, all of us, Egypt succeed. We need Egypt to succeed, and
    the lessons of our experience as a nation, as well as
    organizations like NDI and IRI, is that for security to be
    sustainable, it must involve citizens and civil society.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you very much, sir.
        Mr. Awad, you testified that, relative to the Sinai, the
    Egyptian security forces have so far been able to frustrate
    ISIS and other violent groups in the Nile Valley. What elements
    does Egypt need to include in its counterinsurgency strategy if
    it is to stop ISIS from expanding further? And what do you see
    as ISIS' strategy in Egypt as it attempts to link its
    operations with those in Libya?
        Mr. Awad. So let me discuss the situation in the Sinai.
    Counterinsurgency really relates to the Sinai. The issue is
    that the Egyptian Government and the military has articulated
    different parts of the strategy: Economic development, tribal
    outreach in an informal way, and beginning to update some of
    the doctrine and integrating intelligence surveillance and
    reconnaissance methods and how they are fighting the
    terrorists.
        The problem is, thus far, we don't necessarily see a
    unified central command that is implementing a
    counterinsurgency strategy. Different parts, again, are
    articulated. There is supposed to be a command that is for
    countering terrorism and economic development of the Sinai.
    However, it remains to be seen if in fact we will see the
    Egyptian Government saying that it is going to do
    counterinsurgency. The problem is some officials don't even
    like the term insurgency, but that is a whole other set of
    issues.
        When it comes to the Islamic State, as I have written in
    the West Point Sentinel in multiple articles, the Islamic State
    looks at Egypt as, most importantly, a base of operations that
    can be used to launch attacks against Israel. This is the case
    of the Sinai. Also, it can link the Sinai in the Libyan
    theater, so being able to have assets in the Western Desert
    that can secure the smuggling routes. Being able to have access
    to the Nile Valley that can continue that route from the
    Western Desert to Sinai is key and vital. Egypt also has a lot
    of Western interests, tourist targets, so Islamic State looks
    at it as a place where it can do external operations against
    Western targets.
        Finally, Egypt is an untapped reservoir, from their
    perspective, of recruits. We look at tiny Tunisia and the
    thousands of people it exported to that group, whereas in Egypt
    only a fraction of that number. So the Islamic State is looking
    to try and recruit as much as possible inside Egypt to feed its
    different branches but also to increase its operations in Egypt
    proper.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you very much. Thank you.
        Mr. Deutch is recognized.
        Mr. Deutch. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        We have had a lot of discussion about the security issue
    and the human rights issue and how to bridge them, and I wanted
    to come at this a different way. President Sisi has taken a
    leading role in countering violent Islamic extremism, and his
    has been a needed and welcomed voice in the region. The
    question, though, is not about how we perceive it. The question
    is how do the Egyptian people perceive it, number one. And
    given the crackdown on Islamists, is President Sisi able to be
    a voice of influence in the broader region? Ms. Hawthorne?
        Ms. Hawthorne. Thank you. That is a crucial question. I
    believe that many Egyptians do support President Sisi's
    approach, and he does continue to enjoy support from large
    parts of the Egyptian population. But first of all, that
    support has notably declined in the past year as problems in
    Egypt have mounted.
        And secondly, I believe there are many Egyptians who are
    very worried and fearful of President Sisi's counterterrorism
    approach. In fact, many of these Egyptians are the very ones
    who the government and state institutions need to be able to
    reach to convince them not to turn to violence, not to turn to
    radicalization. And it is this constituency of Egyptian
    citizens who themselves or their friends or their families have
    been arrested, detained, tortured, subject to other kinds of
    mistreatment, convicted in trials that lack any semblance of
    due process. I think for those Egyptians they are looking for
    Egyptian leadership that has the moral authority to talk about
    values of tolerance and acceptance and human rights that are at
    the core of countering any message from ISIS. And they have, I
    think, a very serious concern.
        President Sisi speaks out against Islamic radicalism, which
    is crucial, but the other half of the equation, which is all of
    the other things that are needed to diminish the appeal of
    these groups, is really missing at this time.
        Mr. Deutch. Thank you. Mr. Awad, can you just follow up? I
    understand--and we have spoken about the concerns that so many
    of us share on the human rights front and on civil society, and
    clearly for those segments of Egyptian society who are trying
    to express themselves, we understand those problems. But more
    broadly throughout the region is the position that President
    Sisi has taken, speaking out against these radical Islamist
    views, how is that being received, again, throughout the
    broader region, understanding that there are human rights
    issues, there are civil society issues throughout the broader
    region as well, which we have to talk about. But just
    specifically on his willingness to speak out like this, Mr.
    Awad, what impact is that having?
        Mr. Awad. Well, we can't say that there is much impact.
    However, I can say that definitely people across the region
    appreciated the rhetoric coming from the President of a major
    country in the Arab world to speak in such frank terms against
    Islamic extremism and against many of these extremists.
        However, for Egypt to have impact, it will have to lead by
    example. This is not necessarily something that we have seen.
    Again, we have seen parts of a strategy articulated when it
    comes to countering violent extremism or CVE, but the
    government hasn't completely established a unified strategy
    that can set an example for less stable countries to follow or
    aspire to.
        Mr. Deutch. Ambassador Green, again, getting back to human
    rights and civil society, the frustration that we have
    expressed--and again, it is an issue I think Mr. Connolly
    talked about, the expectations that we have. But again, instead
    of just viewing this as what we expect and how Egypt receives
    the message that we are sending to them, how do we speak to
    Egyptian leaders about human rights in a way that resonates
    with them and that aligns with their interests? Is there a way
    to do that?
        Ambassador Green. I think the way that we do that is that
    we suggest to them over and over again--and we have plenty of
    lessons to point to--that in the long run, for security to be
    sustainable, it must have citizen buy-in, particularly from the
    next generation. Young people have to have a stake in a vibrant
    Egyptian culture and government, and that means that there has
    to be a space for citizens to engage and have a voice in their
    government. That, I think, is what we talk about over and over
    again.
        And if I might, just to add on to what we have just heard
    from your previous question, Egypt is clearly important to
    America's interests and to the interests of many in the region.
    However, I think everyone recognizes that Egypt's economy, as
    bad as it is, would be even more horrendous if it were not for
    it being buffeted and held up by outside assistance. And the
    same thing is true with the military.
        So while there is stability in one sense, I think many
    recognize that in so many ways it is hollow, that unless they
    make these investments in some kind of citizen engagement, they
    can never truly and sustainably be secure and have that bright
    future that everyone of us wants to see.
        Mr. Deutch. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you, Mr. Deutch.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
        Ambassador Green, thank you very much for your service, and
    I am really so pleased about your presidency of IRI, the
    International Republican Institute. I wish more American people
    knew about IRI, also the National Democratic Institute. It is a
    great example of working together, both parties, promoting
    democracy around the world.
        And I had the opportunity 26 years ago--it was life-
    changing to me--to be an election observer as a State Senator
    in Bulgaria June 10, 1990. I will never forget it. It was
    extraordinary to see the country come to life after fascism,
    Nazism, communism. And then it gave me the opportunity to
    invite--and I had a Member of Parliament Stefan Stoyonov and
    Ambassador Elena Poptodorova come and observe our election. So
    it was eye-opening.
        And then I had the opportunity, due to IRI, to visit in
    Bratislava, Slovakia; to Novosibirsk, Siberia. What a
    difference you make. And I had the great opportunity to have
    Ambassador Peter Burian as an election observer from Slovakia
    in South Carolina of all things where he unjustly accused me of
    arranging for half of the voters to have Slovak heritage. It
    was just a coincidence as we were at the polling locations. But
    what a difference IRI makes. So thank you.
        In your written testimony, you stated that President Sisi's
    concerted counterterrorism campaign in the Sinai shows few
    signs of progress in eliminating the very real extremist threat
    that is sadly on the rise. Based on this observation, could you
    explain the impact of the really bizarre reports that the U.S.
    may be withdrawing from the Sinai, and what would that do to
    the prospect of destroying ISIL/Daesh on the Sinai Peninsula?
        Ambassador Green. Thank you, Congressman. Thank you for the
    kind words. And as you know, IRI and NDI are joined at the hip.
    We are sister organizations working closely together.
        I am not sure I am qualified to give you a thorough
    assessment on the security front, but I would say that we do
    believe the U.S. must stay engaged with Egypt. It is a crucial
    partner of ours in the region, so I would certainly not suggest
    withdrawal in any way, shape, or form.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. Well, to me it is very clear.
    We either stop ISIL/Daesh overseas or we will see them again
    here, as Congressman Rohrabacher has so eloquently pointed out.
        Mr. Awad, how would you characterize the impact of U.S.
    military assistance to Egypt? Has it been used effectively?
        Mr. Awad. If I may just to comment on the issue of the MFO
    in North Sinai----
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. Yes, please.
        Mr. Awad [continuing]. Our troops are not there to fight
    ISIS, so the issue of removal is not taking them out of Egypt
    necessarily but a more secure location in the South Sinai so it
    won't have necessarily a negative impact on the fight against
    ISIS. The troops are there to observe the peace treaty between
    Egypt and Israel, and that is no longer as acute of a problem
    as it used to be. So it is for our troops' protection. We are
    not removing our people from Egypt or we are not limiting the
    pressure that is applied against the Islamic State there.
        For the most part I think there is room for improvement
    when it comes to how our military assistance is lining up with
    Egyptian priorities and how that is advancing our point of view
    toward counterinsurgency in a place like Sinai. When it comes
    to the use of Apaches, F-16s, they have been effective, as I
    have noted, as the situation escalated in the Sinai. It is not
    so much an issue of the major weapons systems that we provide
    them but how best to provide them ISR-related technologies,
    drones, and things along those lines, but at the same time
    ensuring that they will be used in an effective strategy.
        So we have made some gains. It is doing some work, but
    there is a lot that can be done with the type of weapons that
    we give them. But at the end of the day there needs to be an
    effective counterinsurgency strategy, an articulated strategy
    that we can actually latch onto and provide the necessary
    equipment for.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. Thank you very much. And,
    Ambassador Green, how could you explain, sadly, the relatively
    low voter turnout in Egypt selections? What can the United
    States do to encourage greater participation in the political
    process?
        Ambassador Green. Well, obviously, the most important
    things that can be done are by the Egyptian Government itself.
    It is creating meaningful opportunities. Where outcomes are
    predetermined or preordained, people see less reason to
    participate, and so genuine choices, genuinely citizen-centered
    choices at the ballot box are the long-term answer.
        We recognize in a challenging security situation there may
    be intermediate steps and there may be a path to be followed,
    but clearly, there has to be some hope for Egypt's young people
    that they will get back to the traditions that they have had of
    civil society being vibrant and citizen-centered government
    being the norm.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. And again, I have seen it
    firsthand with IRI and NDI. Again, it is fun when you visit
    these countries and you can't tell who is R and who is D, which
    is amazing. But working together and by encouraging youth
    groups, different civic groups to participate, it is very
    positive, and I wish you continued success.
        And I yield back to the chairperson.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much, Mr. Wilson.
        And now we will go to Mr. Trott, right? Yes.
        Mr. Trott. Thank you, Chairman, and----
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Trott [continuing]. I want to thank Ranking Member
    Deutch for scheduling this hearing.
        And obviously, a discussion of the relationship between
    Egypt and the United States is very important because there is
    a strategic importance to the relationship.
        I didn't get here in time to make an opening statement, but
    I wanted to mention to the panel that I am very honored today.
    I have a large Coptic community in my district, and so for the
    first time in the history of the House, Father Mina from the
    Orthodox church in Troy, Michigan, is here. He is going to open
    the House and lead the House in prayer later this morning----
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Oh, terrific.
        Mr. Trott [continuing]. So it is a wonderful honor, and I
    will be happy to welcome him with the Speaker in about an hour.
        My question goes to the events that happened a few weeks
    ago in Minya when the elderly woman was stripped naked and
    paraded around the city, and I just want each of the panelists
    to speak to, you know, what is going to be done in response to
    that outrageous incident? Is President Sisi going to be
    supportive of a rule-of-law solution? Are we going to engage in
    ridiculous reconciliation sessions? What is going to happen
    there? What can we do to help get the right result with respect
    to that outrageous behavior and incident?
        And then generally with respect to religious minorities,
    how can Congress help move the needle to make sure the
    situation continues to improve particularly for the Copts in
    Egypt?
        Ms. Hawthorne. I guess I will start with that one. First,
    in response to one of the earlier questions--and this actually
    feeds into your very important question with regard to how the
    U.S. can engage with Egypt on human rights and civil society
    and talk about the ways in which upholding these norms and
    values is in Egypt's interest--I would note that in recent
    meetings with visiting U.S. congressional delegations and with
    other foreign visitors, President Sisi has reportedly stated
    that the West should not hold Egypt to unfair Western human
    rights standards and that we should create sort of a lower
    standard or exceptions for Egypt's human rights performance.
        But in fact it is very important to keep in mind that these
    standards are not Western standards. Many of them are enshrined
    in Egypt's new constitution of 2014. Egypt is also a signatory
    to several key international human rights instruments, and
    quasi-official human rights bodies in Egypt monitor human
    rights. So when President Sisi and other Egyptian officials
    make that assertion, I think we need to be ready to respond
    with the fact that these are really Egyptian norms and Egyptian
    demands, as well as universal ones.
        With regard to the very troubling event that you referenced
    in Minya, frankly, this is one of the most disturbing things
    that I have read about of all the incredibly disturbing things
    that have been happening in Egypt recently. And sadly, it is a
    part of a pattern of communal tensions that lead to violent
    attacks on Coptic Christians with no recourse and no justice.
        One of the disturbing elements of this incident was that it
    only came to light because of dogged local reporting and
    information on social media by Egyptian citizens. The Egyptian
    Government was originally prepared not to mention it.
        President Sisi has spoken about this incident and has vowed
    that the perpetrators will be brought to justice, but I must
    say that under Sisi, under former President Morsi, and under
    former President Mubarak there was a terrible and disturbing
    pattern of lack of follow-through for these attacks against
    Copts and other minorities in Egypt, lots of nice words but
    very little follow-through or accountability or the rule of
    law.
        The problem is is that the justice system, the judiciary in
    Egypt today, in many cases seems incapable of rendering
    justice, and there is an increasingly intolerant environment in
    Egyptian society against those who are different, which might
    include Copts and others who are part of the fabric of Egyptian
    society.
        I think that it is very important that all visiting
    Americans--U.S. officials, Members of Congress, and others--
    raise these issues with President Sisi because the Egyptian
    authorities often would like to sweep these problems under the
    rug and suggest there is no sectarian tension and there is no
    communal strife in Egypt, and that is simply not the case. So
    the first step is for us to raise these issues and then to
    remind Egypt of its national and international obligations.
        Mr. Trott. Thank you. I think that is a great answer and a
    great suggestion and I appreciate it. And I have limited time,
    so I have just one other question I will follow up with you.
        So if the Muslim Brotherhood have an exclusive ideology and
    democracy is an inclusive process, is the Muslim Brotherhood
    compatible with democracy?
        Ms. Hawthorne. That is a crucial question and one that is
    difficult to answer in brief. I believe that at least through
    2013 when President Morsi's government was toppled, there were
    members of the Muslim Brotherhood who were ready to work within
    and accept the democratic process while in my personal view
    still hewing to disturbing, illiberal, and intolerant views.
    But at least it was a first step that there were some members
    of the group who were willing to participate in elections and
    participate in a democratically elected government. However,
    once President Morsi was in power, we saw a lack of regard for
    human rights, norms, and many disturbing signs and tendencies
    toward repression.
        However, if we look at actual acts and practices, we see
    that what has taken place under President Sisi, who professes
    to support democracy, is actually far more abusive and far more
    brutal and far more disparaging and violating of democratic
    norms than what took place under previous governments.
        So I believe that there are many undemocratic actors in
    Egypt, not just many Islamists but also other Egyptians who are
    very enamored of a harsh, repressive security state. So the
    outcome on the ground is the same in my view, and it is very
    disturbing.
        Mr. Trott. Thank you. I yield back.
        Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much, excellent questions.
    And good luck with the prayer today.
        Mr. Connolly of Virginia is recognized.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        Ms. Hawthorne, your testimony is that the current crackdown
    is worse than that under Morsi and worse than that under the
    Mubarak government, correct?
        Ms. Hawthorne. [Nonverbal response.]
        Mr. Connolly. That is a pretty hard statement. It seems to
    me that if you don't create political space, you are inviting
    repression and authoritarian regimes because there is no
    alternative. I don't know why we were surprised when Mubarak
    fell that the only viable electoral alternative was the Muslim
    Brotherhood. They were the only ones who had organized, however
    surreptitiously, and no other political dissent had been
    allowed, with our complicity. And we are doing it again under
    this military-led government.
        And my friend from California, Mr. Rohrabacher, warned us
    that if we didn't support this government, the alternative was
    radical Islamic terrorism. I fear that without questioning this
    government, without challenging this government, without
    holding it to certain standards, that is precisely the
    alternative. We will create that alternative not by design, but
    because we have created no political space in Egypt, the
    largest Arab population in the world.
        The idea that there is only this military-led government or
    chaos in the void seems to me an unacceptable proposition for
    the American people and the American Government, and we have to
    use whatever lever is available to us--and we have talked about
    that a little bit in terms of foreign assistance--to try to
    effectuate a better outcome and a better-performing government,
    one that is more inclusive and certainly does not resort--I
    mean, when you say, Ms. Hawthorne, that the current crackdown
    is worse than Morsi, whatever one wants to say about the Muslim
    Brotherhood government--and God knows I have no love for the
    Muslim Brotherhood government, but they did get elected freely
    and fairly according to the United States Government, is that
    not correct?
        Ms. Hawthorne. [Nonverbal response.]
        Mr. Connolly. Did they mow thousands of Egyptian citizens
    in the streets of Cairo and Alexandria, Ms. Hawthorne?
        Ms. Hawthorne. No, they did not.
        Mr. Connolly. No, they did not. That is kind of a big
    measuring stick, it seems to me. However repressive or anti-
    democratic tendencies they may have been showing at the time of
    the overthrow, they did not do what this government has done
    against its own citizens.
        And I am not trying to create a favorable comparison, but I
    think we, America, we need to realistically look at what has
    been wrought in Egypt. And I believe that repressive government
    in Egypt plays into the hands of the very elements we want to
    oppose and we do not want to strengthen.
        Ambassador Green, what about that? IRI is on the ground
    over there. You have had people who have been victimized by
    this government and the previous government. What is your
    sense?
        Ambassador Green. Well, thank you, Congressman. If nothing
    else, your statement about the importance of political space we
    absolutely agree with, that there must be political space
    created for people to engage in a safe space with their
    government. And what we worry about is ongoing alienation of
    youth, the next generation. And if they grow up in a society
    with no safe space, no opportunities to engage with their
    government and with their society, what will be the long-term
    ramifications? Will you have an entire generation that knows
    nothing else but what they are seeing right now? And obviously
    none of us would support that. That would be a terrible thing.
        Mr. Connolly. And maybe that, given my limited time,
    Ambassador Green, we could talk just a little bit. I am going
    to invite you to describe the process. But when I met with the
    young people from the NGOs who are unfortunately being
    prosecuted by their government, these were young idealists
    committed to making their country a better place. I mean, you
    couldn't have asked for a better sense of citizenship. And in
    fact one worried about their idealism being perhaps crushed by
    the government. Most of them come from middle- and upper-
    middle-class families. They are educated. Describe the
    humiliation of what it means to be put on trial in a courtroom
    in Cairo. What happens? Are you put in a jury box?
        Ambassador Green. They do not receive the same legal
    protections or opportunities obviously that we see in the
    United States or in nearly all of the civilized world. And it
    goes back to my strong belief that alienation of youth is one
    of the most dangerous conditions. Left unaddressed, it will
    guarantee more authoritarian government. It will guarantee an
    unsustainable security situation.
        Mr. Connolly. And the disillusionment of a cadre of young
    people who actually believed in democracy.
        Ambassador Green. Very much so.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina [presiding]. And thank you,
    Mr. Connolly.
        We will now proceed to Congressman Ron DeSantis of Florida.
        Mr. DeSantis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I appreciate
    Chairman Ros-Lehtinen holding this hearing. I think that this
    is a very important subject.
        And I agree with a lot of the concerns about what is going
    on in Egyptian society, but I also don't want to view the
    Muslim Brotherhood with any type of rose-colored glasses. I
    think that we should designate them as a foreign terrorist
    organization. We have passed it out of one House committee
    already, and it is awaiting Floor action. I think that they are
    not part of the solution in the Middle East but part of the
    problem.
        So let me ask you, putting aside the problems that are
    going on in Egyptian society, Ambassador Green, is President
    el-Sisi a more reliable ally to the United States in combating
    Islamist terror than a Muslim Brotherhood-led government would
    be?
        Ambassador Green. Thank you, Congressman. I am not sure I
    am qualified to comment necessarily on the security situation,
    but what I can comment on is very clearly former President
    Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood were leading Egypt on a very,
    very dangerous path toward combative, violent Islamic
    extremism. You know, there is simply no doubt of that.
        My fear and what my testimony is today is that in the 3
    years since then, I worry that the clamping down on civil
    society and human rights is making the situation--we are
    certainly not improving the situation.
        Mr. DeSantis. I think we saw Mubarak is removed, they do an
    election, and really the default political movement is
    political Islam. You saw that with the Brotherhood winning; the
    Salafists did well in that election. And I am concerned as well
    with what you are talking about with civil society, but are
    there competing ideologies at play? Are there people who are
    trying to offer a more, I think, appetizing view of the role of
    government and individual liberty in Egypt right now?
        Ambassador Green. I think one of the dangers is when you
    have a total clampdown on civil society and the opportunities
    for citizens to engage their government, there is no pluralism,
    and that is a very dangerous thing. So, you know, it becomes a
    self-fulfilling prophecy. And again, we believe that there
    needs to be political space for people to express themselves.
    We recognize the security challenges that the government faces,
    but certainly from the perspective of the U.S., there is every
    reason that we should be clear-eyed in our analysis, and we
    should be honest and straightforward with those with whom we
    engage.
        Mr. DeSantis. Mr. Awad, what would you say? President el-
    Sisi, is he a more reliable ally in combating Islamist terror
    than a Brotherhood-led government would be?
        Mr. Awad. On that narrow question of reliability, to rely
    on a member of the Egyptian military over a member of the
    Muslim Brotherhood to combat terrorists, the short answer is
    yes. There was a question asked earlier about whether or not
    the Muslim Brotherhood is compatible with democracy. That
    question can be debated, but I believe they are wholly
    incompatible with liberal democracy. I am not really sure that
    this is a question that is necessarily up for debate, the
    Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, that is.
        On the question of whether or not they are a foreign
    terrorist organization, I don't necessarily see evidence that
    the entire organization is a terrorist organization. That does
    not make them pacifists. They have problematic views. They have
    proven themselves to be----
        Mr. DeSantis. They support groups like Hamas, though.
        Mr. Awad. They do support groups like Hamas. However, we
    are talking about material or financial support. The extent of
    that has to be investigated to be able to make a designation
    that every member of----
        Mr. DeSantis. Well, but they also provide----
        Mr. Awad [continuing]. The Muslim Brotherhood is a
    terrorist.
        Mr. DeSantis [continuing]. The intellectual contours for a
    really rigid political Islamism. And one of the things I
    appreciated with President el-Sisi--and again, I think I agree
    with you guys on the problems of the civil society is that he
    gave a speech in front of a lot of clerics in 2015 and just
    made the point that he is a devout Muslim, but you can't have
    the faith used to be antagonistic to every single person in the
    world who disagrees with that. I would imagine that that view
    would be rejected by the hierarchy of the Brotherhood, correct?
        Mr. Awad. That is true. And let me clarify. There is
    increasing evidence that one faction inside the Muslim
    Brotherhood has engaged in violence since January 2014 at
    least. Some of their members have engaged and do engage in
    violence. The question here is not, again, whether the Muslim
    Brotherhood is a pacifist organization or a problematic one. It
    is. It is incompatible with liberal democracy, and its views
    are regressive.
        But for the United States in designating a foreign
    terrorist organization, if we want to take a step like that,
    perhaps we should take a look at the specific individuals or
    the specific faction that is actively engaging in these things
    because there are many members of the Muslim Brotherhood who
    may hold regressive views like members of white supremacist
    groups here in the United States that we wouldn't necessarily
    designate as terrorists. But again, the lack of designating as
    terrorists does not mean that the organization is a good
    organization or compatible with liberal democracy.
        Mr. DeSantis. All right. I thank the gentleman for his
    comments. I would just say I think that what is kind of at the
    foundation of society, are there pockets where you could
    actually have more liberal views about the proper role of
    government. And my fear is that the default is basically the
    Brotherhood and political Islamists, that that is where the
    majority or at least a plurality of the folks are. But I agree
    it is tough to figure that out if there are not open channels.
    But I appreciate the testimony, and I yield back.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. Thank you, Congressman
    DeSantis. And now we will conclude with our guest, Congressman
    Dana Rohrabacher of California.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        And I am very pleased to hear from our colleagues that we
    have a Coptic religious leader leading us in prayer this
    morning. That is a wonderful statement for us to make.
        Let me suggest this. I worked in the White House with
    President Reagan at a time when the National Endowment for
    Democracy became real. I worked with a speechwriting team that
    developed the concept in his speech before Parliament. And let
    me note that during that time period, I think one of the
    reasons we won the cold war is Reagan became the champion of
    democracy rather than repression as a way to meet communism.
    That was part of the basic theory. But let me note this, that
    what we have today are alternatives between if the bad guys
    win, what we have is what, Islamic dictatorships that will
    murder people in great number.
        And, you know, quite frankly, I think that when you have
    some level of repression against groups of people in your
    society that went to institute a dictatorship, what we did is
    we used those people who wanted freedom and democracy against a
    communist regime, we emphasized that, and that is how we won
    the cold war.
        But the fact is those people and the institutes we are
    talking about were pushing for democracy in communist
    countries, and what would replace--in other words, the
    repressive people in those countries where the ones who didn't
    believe in democracy and we were supporting--by having the same
    strategy in Egypt and other countries, we are ending up, what,
    supporting and giving life to elements within that society that
    don't want more democracy.
        So I would suggest that pushing against restrictions,
    especially during a time when hundreds of Egyptian people are
    being murdered or soldiers are being killed in a battle against
    radical Islam, at a time pushing them at that point to a
    standard, a Democratic standard that we believe should be the
    standard in ordinary times, perhaps makes it more likely that
    there will be a repressive government rather than less likely,
    meaning in the end I believe General Sisi, now President Sisi,
    wants a Democratic Egypt. And for us to undermine him now we
    might end up creating a horror story in terms of radical
    Islamic terrorism throughout the region, but also the people of
    Egypt will be less free if the Muslim Brotherhood element
    succeeds.
        Now, with that suggestion, let me ask about the blasphemy
    law. You mentioned the blasphemy rules. How many people have
    been prosecuted for blasphemy laws in Egypt?
        Ms. Hawthorne. I believe that in recent years it has been
    in the dozens.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. In recent years----
        Ms. Hawthorne. Yes, it has been----
        Mr. Rohrabacher [continuing]. Been dozens?
        Ms. Hawthorne [continuing]. In the dozens.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. So that means last year maybe one?
        Ms. Hawthorne. No, I think it was a significantly more than
    that.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay.
        Ms. Hawthorne. I will have to check on those but----
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Five then----
        Ms. Hawthorne [continuing]. I think it was----
        Mr. Rohrabacher. We are talking five or ten?
        Ms. Hawthorne [continuing]. More than five, in the dozens.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay. So in the dozens over a number of
    years. Tell me, in the other parts of the Middle East how does
    that stack up with the rest of the countries in the Middle
    East?
        Ms. Hawthorne. Well, first of all, Egypt has a much larger
    Coptic Christian population----
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Yes.
        Ms. Hawthorne [continuing]. Than many other countries.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Right.
        Ms. Hawthorne. So the dynamics are----
        Mr. Rohrabacher. That is because they have relative freedom
    of religion compared to all the other countries in the Middle
    East.
        Ms. Hawthorne. I think it is very troubling. I mean, a
    recent incident that sort of highlighted some of the dilemmas
    that are occurring in Sisi's Egypt today is that a group of
    Coptic Christian teenagers who filmed----
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Hold on. Hold on. I am asking a question
    here. I don't want you to go on about your philosophy. We
    understand, and I agree with what you are saying, but I am
    asking you a specific question. Doesn't Egypt rank really high
    up on the scale when compared to other Middle Eastern countries
    in terms of freedom of religion, blasphemy, et cetera?
        Ms. Hawthorne. In some respects there are positive signs.
    In other respects there are----
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Is the answer yes or no?
        Ms. Hawthorne. I think it is a mixed picture.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay.
        Ms. Hawthorne. President Sisi has said some important
    things----
        Mr. Rohrabacher. All right.
        Ms. Hawthorne [continuing]. But actions on the ground
    continue to be----
        Mr. Rohrabacher. All right. All right.
        Ms. Hawthorne [continuing]. Increasingly intolerant.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. I have got a limited amount of time. That
    is why I can't let you go on. The bottom line is I have been to
    the Middle East, we have all been to the Middle East. To
    compare Egypt under attack by radical Islamic forces that hate
    us, that would murder us, as well as murder all the people in
    Egypt that disagree with them, to compare them to us and the
    rest of the Western world, Europe, is wrong. It is bad. It will
    result in more tyranny and not less. What is fair is to compare
    Egypt to the other Muslim countries in that region.
        And I know it sounds like you are very hesitant to say it.
    I am not hesitant to say it. Egypt ranks way up there on the
    top of that scale. It is positive as compared to Qatar, as
    Saudi Arabia, Bahrain. All of these countries that we are
    talking about that you could compare it to legitimately, Egypt
    gets an A plus compared to them.
        I think it is totally unfair, especially when this country
    is under attack, their people are being murdered, you have got
    the soldiers being killed, 900 soldiers--what would happen if
    900 American soldiers--by the way, in proportion, that is about
    90,000 American soldiers being killed and then to hold Egypt to
    that standard is wrong.
        And, Mr. Chairman, just indulge me in one more moment. I do
    not believe that radical Islamic terrorists are really
    alienated Democrats. I don't believe that for a minute. This
    idea that because there have been clampdowns on certain people
    that maybe shouldn't be clamped down--look, any time you let
    the government bureaucracy go, they make mistakes and they
    target people. They do that--we have had our own people
    targeted here by our own Government in terms of the IRS, et
    cetera, for disagreement.
        But this, the radical Islamists that are a threat to us now
    are not people who believed in democracy, but they were upset
    that they knew someone who was repressed by a repressive
    government. These are people who have a philosophy, an ideology
    like communism did during the cold war. The fact is that
    communists believed in what they believed in. They believed in
    a dictatorship of the proletariat. That idea was defeated, but
    we recognize what that was.
        Today, radical Islamic terrorism is affecting the entire
    world and threatens especially the democratic world. General
    Sisi who is now President Sisi, the fact is if his government
    does not succeed because we have been too idealistic in
    comparing him to other standards, the Western standards of
    people who are not under attack and we lose this government to
    a radical Islamic government, the whole world will suffer and
    we will be in jeopardy.
        With that said, thank you very much.
        Mr. Connolly. Mr. Chairman?
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. Yes, Congressman Connolly.
        Mr. Connolly. If I might be allowed just a brief response.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. That is a unanimous consent, but as long
    as you promise that someday I get that opportunity when you
    have refuted me.
        Mr. Connolly. Absolutely.
        Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay. Good.
        Mr. Connolly. I simply wanted to say that I don't know that
    we disagree. To be a critic of the el-Sisi government is not to
    view terrorists as lapsed Democrats. Some of us want to see,
    like you do, Mr. Rohrabacher, Egypt as a bulwark against
    terrorism and extremism. The question is how best to do that.
    And some of us respectfully, including the witnesses here
    today, believe that the path el-Sisi has gone down actually
    will not yield that result, will do the opposite, not by design
    but by practice.
        Now, maybe we are wrong and I hope we are, but it is worthy
    of examination because my friend and I share the same goal. It
    is a question of how best to get there. I don't believe the
    best way to get there is by killing your own citizens, by
    clamping down on civil liberties, by imprisoning and trying
    young idealist NGO staffers who are trying to make for a better
    Egypt. I believe that those actions are almost designed to play
    into the hands of the very people you and I want to prevent
    from coming to power.
        And that is the debate. It is not an either/or choice of do
    you like terrorists or do you want a military strongman who
    cracks down on all dissent. There has to be another alternative
    making this better, creating political space so that we aren't
    faced with a black-and-white, either/or alternative. And that
    is just my point of view. Thank you, friend.
        Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. And I would like to thank, as
    we conclude, Congressman Rohrabacher and Congressman Connolly
    for their input, and we appreciate so much the witnesses here
    today.
        And again, I just have to restate IRI, NDI, the National
    Endowment for Democracy, what a difference it makes around the
    world providing opportunity. And I just wish the success of
    each of you.
        We are now adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                A P P E N D I X

                                  ----------

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                     [all]