[Senate Hearing 113-712]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 113-712
CYBERSECURITY, TERRORISM, AND BEYOND:
ADDRESSING EVOLVING THREATS TO THE HOMELAND
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HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
SEPTEMBER 10, 2014
__________
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov/
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
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COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan TOM COBURN, Oklahoma
MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas JOHN McCAIN, Arizona
MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
CLAIRE McCASKILL, Missouri ROB PORTMAN, Ohio
JON TESTER, Montana RAND PAUL, Kentucky
MARK BEGICH, Alaska MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire
HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota
Gabrielle A. Batkin. Staff Director
John P. Kilvington, Deputy Staff Director
Harlan C. Geer, Senior Professional Staff Member
Stephen R. Vina, Chief Counsel for Homeland Security
Keith B. Ashdown, Minority Staff Director
Christopher J. Barkley, Minority Deputy Staff Director
William H.W. McKenna, Minority Investigative Counsel
Daniel P. Lips, Minority Director of Homeland Security
Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
Lauren M. Corcoran, Hearing Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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Opening statements:
Page
Senator Carper............................................... 1
Senator Coburn............................................... 3
Senator Johnson.............................................. 18
Senator McCain............................................... 20
Senator Baldwin.............................................. 22
Senator Portman.............................................. 25
Senator Ayotte............................................... 28
Prepared statements:
Senator Carper............................................... 35
Senator Coburn............................................... 37
WITNESSES
Wednesday, September 10, 2014
Hon. Francis X. Taylor, Under Secretary, Office of Intelligence
and Analysis, U.S. Department of Homeland Security; and Hon.
Suzanne E. Spaulding, Under Secretary, National Protection and
Programs Directorate, U.S. Department of Homeland Security..... 6
Nicholas J. Rasmussen, Deputy Director, National Counterterrorism
Center, Office of the Director of National Intelligence........ 9
Robert Anderson, Jr., Executive Assistant Director, Criminal,
Cyber, Response, and Services Branch, Federal Bureau of
Investigation, U.S. Department of Justice...................... 13
Alphabetical List of Witnesses
Anderson, Robert Jr.:
Testimony.................................................... 13
Prepared statement........................................... 57
Rasmussen, Nicholas J.:
Testimony.................................................... 9
Prepared statement........................................... 47
Taylor, Hon. Francis X.:
Testimony.................................................... 6
Joint prepared statement with Ms. Spaulding.................. 38
APPENDIX
Information submitted by Senator Baldwin......................... 64
Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record:
Mr. Taylor and Ms. Spaulding................................. 72
Mr. Rasmussen................................................ 92
CYBERSECURITY, TERRORISM, AND BEYOND:
ADDRESSING EVOLVING THREATS TO THE HOMELAND
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WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 2014
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Homeland Security
and Governmental Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:32 a.m., in
room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R.
Carper, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Carper, Baldwin, Coburn, McCain, Johnson,
Portman, and Ayotte.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN CARPER
Chairman Carper. Good morning, everyone. Great to see you.
Welcome, and we thank you for joining us and look forward to
your testimonies.
Almost every year, this Committee holds a hearing to review
a multitude of threats to our homeland and examine how our
government is working to counter those threats. We routinely
hear from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and we hear
from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the National
Counterterrorism Center (NCTC) about how we can best keep
Americans safe from those who would seek to carry out deadly
attacks against our country and its people. We also hear about
actors in cyberspace that want to drain our bank accounts, who
want to shut down our financial systems, our electric grid,
steal our individually identifiable information and our
identities, as well as the Research and Development (R&D) that
will enable American businesses and our military to remain pre-
eminent in the world.
Assessing these ever-changing, broad threats and making
sure our government continues to hone its ability to stop them
remains a top priority for this Committee, particularly as we
approach another September 11, 2001 anniversary. This year, our
hearing takes on an added significance as our Nation confronts
a growing terrorist threat in Iraq and Syria. As we sit here
today, our military is engaging in limited air strikes in Iraq
in an effort to dislodge and repel that threat. Later this
evening, President Obama will address our Nation. He is
expected to share with us and the world the steps that he is
recommending be taken in Iraq and in Syria to reverse the
expansion of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and to
enable the people who live in those countries to reclaim their
lives.
Much of the world has been exposed to a steady stream of
deeply disturbing images from those regions in recent weeks:
brutal executions, human rights atrocities, repression of
women, and a seemingly endless procession of masked militants
defiantly waving the black flag of jihad in celebration of
their brutality.
Effectively addressing the threat from the newly proclaimed
Islamic State will require a multifaceted strategy, and that
strategy will need a military component and the development of
a robust international coalition to execute it. Among the goals
of that strategy is to ensure that the Islamic State of Iraq
and Syria does not establish a long-term safe haven from which
it can launch attacks against either our allies or our
homeland--much like we saw al-Qaeda do in the days before
September 11, 2001.
Today we will examine the steps that our Federal Government
has already taken, along with the steps that we still need to
take, to prevent this from happening. We will drill down on
this threat and its impact on our homeland, both in this open
hearing as well as in a classified briefing directly following.
But that is not all we are going to do. In addition to
examining the more conventional terrorist threats the
instability in Iraq and Syria may pose, we will also closely
examine another major threat that affects our homeland, and
that is, daily cyber attacks.
Every day nation states and their affiliates--criminals,
terrorists, and hackers--launch cyber attacks against our
government agencies, our businesses, and important parts of our
daily lives such as utilities and financial networks. Some of
these actors want to steal our sensitive information to sell it
on the black market or to gain a competitive edge. Others are
trying to make a political point. Some, however, would like to
use a cyber attack to cause wide-scale economic damage or even
physical harm. Many of them are good at it, and they are
getting even better. We need to stay a step ahead of them.
Today we will hear in the open portion of this hearing and also
in the closed portion how we plan to do that, not unlike the
steps we have taken to address terror threats in the wake of
September 11, 2001.
Congress clearly has a role to play here. Actually, several
roles. One of them is an oversight role. It is one that we take
very seriously. Another is a legislative role that involves
developing legislation to help enable America to anticipate and
repel the cyber attacks that we face on an almost daily, 24/7
basis today. In the last several months, this Committee has
completed action and reported three separate cyber bills
unanimously to the full Senate. One bill would significantly
enhance the capabilities of the Department of Homeland
Security's cyber workforce. Another would better protect
Federal agencies from cyber attack. And a third would codify
the cyber center that the Department of Homeland Security uses
to monitor and respond to attacks to strengthen its ability to
do so. I am grateful to Dr. Coburn and his staff for working
closely with us on each of those pieces of legislation.
Yesterday in an op-ed in The Hill newspaper, Secretary
Johnson recognized the bipartisan efforts of this Committee,
and he talked about the critical need to pass cyber legislation
this Congress. I could not agree more. In closing, as we mark
the anniversary of September 11, 2001 tomorrow, let us keep in
mind one of the key lessons we learned since that fateful day
some 13 years ago, and that is, the threat is always evolving.
Not that long ago, crooks used to rob a bank to steal our
money. Now they click a button on a distant computer and
accomplish the same goal. Nation states and rival businesses
used to employ corporate insiders or retirees to steal company
secrets. Now they send a spear-phishing e-mail. And terrorists
used to be a distant threat in the mountains in places like
Afghanistan or Pakistan. Now an increasing number of them are
homegrown. They may be using European, or even, American
passports.
So as the threat becomes more sophisticated, more elusive,
and more diffuse, we need to remain ever vigilant to ensure
that our government is nimble enough to keep up with tomorrow's
threats as they confront us. We have come a long way since
September 11, 2001. In many respects, we are more secure than
we were on this day 13 years ago. But the world in which we
live remains a dangerous place. There is always more work to
do. When it comes to securing our homeland and anticipating the
next threat, we owe it to the American people to strive for
perfection.
What does it say in the Preamble of the Constitution? ``In
order to form a more perfect union.'' It was not the idea to
form a perfect union, but to form a more perfect union. And our
intent here is to try to approach perfection, even if we never
achieve it, but get as close as we can in this regard. The
consequences of failure are simply too high, and the costs are
too severe.
I am pleased that we have with us today a panel of
witnesses who work together every day to tackle the terrorist
and cyber threats that we face. We are grateful to each of you
for what you do with your life and for your service to our
country.
Now I turn to my partner in all this, Dr. Coburn, for any
remarks that he might wish to make. Dr. Coburn.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COBURN
Senator Coburn. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I concur
with a lot of what you said. I want to thank each of our
witnesses today for their testimony--one, for what you do; two,
for your vigilance; and three, for the criticism you take that
is actually not informed criticism.
The Department of Homeland Security particularly had lots
of problems. I am so thankful Jeh Johnson is there. General, I
am thankful you are there, and, Suzanne, I am thankful for you
there, plus the others that we put through the Committee.
We have a long way to go. Where I would disagree with
Senator Carper is I do not think we are any safer today. I
think the threat to our country is just as great as it was pre-
9/11 based on what is happening in the world; the absolute lack
of control of our border, especially our Southern border, and
the inability and the corruption on both sides in terms of law
enforcement on the border. So I think we have a long way to go,
but I know we have dedicated leadership now in all the areas
that are concentrating on the same goal.
I think it is a shame that the leader of the Senate will
not put a cybersecurity bill on the floor, one that creates
true information sharing. Let the Senate debate it so we can
actually start to really protect the cyber aspect of our
government. And that requires all of us to work together in the
cyber realm to ensure that we are not vulnerable. We are
vulnerable today. We have seen both in Homeland Security and in
the private sector significant breaches. Most of them are on
nation state actors, China and Russia specifically. We should
not fall back from talking about what they are doing and why
they are trying to both steal our intellect and damage our
economy.
These are real issues. This is an important hearing for the
American people to hear, in as much detail as possible, what is
going on and where we need to improve.
So, again, I would thank you all for your efforts, the FBI
and NCTC, and valuable contributions. And having the privilege
of sitting on both Intel and Homeland Security, I get to see as
well as anybody what everybody is doing, and everybody is
working in the right direction except the U.S. Senate. And my
hope would be that we would start helping you rather than
hurting you.
I yield back.
Chairman Carper. I would like to associate myself with the
remarks of my colleague from Oklahoma. We need to move not just
the three cyber bills that have been reported out of this
Committee, I think unanimously, but also some version of the
information-sharing bill. I think we can improve the bill that
came out of the Intel Committee, and my hope is that we will
and we will have a chance to do all four of them, at least
those four, this year. That is my goal. If we can do more, God
bless us.
On behalf of all the Members of our Committee, thank you
for joining us today.
Our first witness is retired Brigadier General Francis
Taylor. Mr. Taylor is the Under Secretary for Intelligence and
Analysis in the Department of Homeland Security. How long have
you been in that job now, General?
General Taylor. Four months, sir.
Chairman Carper. Four months, good. In this role he
provides the Secretary, DHS leadership, DHS components, and
State, local, tribal, and private sector partners with the
homeland security intelligence and information they need to
keep our country safe, secure, and resilient. General Taylor
came to DHS with 31 years of service in the U.S. Air Force, 4
years in the State Department as Counterterrorism Coordinator
and as the Assistant Secretary for Diplomatic Security, and 8
years as vice president at General Electric.
The second witness is Suzanne Spaulding, the Under
Secretary for National Protection and Programs Directorate
(NPPD) at the Department of Homeland Security. As Under
Secretary, one of her responsibilities is coordinating and
overseeing policy and operation for the Department's
infrastructure protection activities, including cybersecurity.
Ms. Spaulding has spent more than 25 years working on national
security issues in Congress, in the Executive Branch, and in
the private sector. This includes extensive experience working
with many critical infrastructure sectors. Welcome.
Our next witness is Nick Rasmussen, Deputy Director of the
National Counterterrorism Center for the Office of the Director
of National Intelligence. Mr. Rasmussen has also served on the
National Security Council where he was responsible for
providing staff support to the President, the National Security
Adviser, and the Homeland Security Adviser on counterterrorism
policy and strategy. Prior to this he served in a variety of
key positions for the Department of State where he provided
support for the Arab-Israeli peace process, the U.S.-North
Korean Agreed Framework, and Persian Gulf security issues.
Nick, welcome this morning.
And our final witness is Robert Anderson, Executive
Assistant Director of the Criminal, Cyber, Response, and
Services Branch of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. In this
position Mr. Anderson oversees all FBI criminal and cyber
investigations worldwide, international operations, critical
incident response, and victim assistance. During the 20 years
that he has worked at the FBI, Mr. Anderson has served in the
Hostage Rescue Team, Counterintelligence Division, and the
Intelligence Division as well.
What did you do before you were part of the FBI?
Mr. Anderson. Sir, I was a Delaware State trooper for
almost 9 years.
Chairman Carper. No kidding. Were you any good?
Mr. Anderson. I hope so.
Chairman Carper. Were you ever Trooper of the Year?
Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir, I was, in 1989.
Chairman Carper. OK. That is pretty good. We remember you
fondly.
Senator Coburn. Did you ever escort the former Governor of
Delaware?
Chairman Carper. He pulled me over. [Laughter.]
He pulled me over a time or two. And as I recall, one other
time fired a warning shot. [Laughter.]
No damage was done. Great to see you, and thanks for what
you did for us back in Delaware and what you are doing for your
country now.
Thank you all for your service. Your entire testimonies
will be made part of the record, and we would ask you to try to
give your testimony in about 5 minutes. If you go way over
that, we will pull you in.
All right. General Taylor, feel like leading us off?
TESTIMONY OF HON. FRANCIS X. TAYLOR,\1\ UNDER SECRETARY FOR
INTELLIGENCE AND ANALYSIS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND
SECURITY; AND HON. SUZANNE E. SPAULDING, UNDER SECRETARY,
NATIONAL PROTECTION AND PROGRAMS DIRECTORATE, U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF HOMELAND SECURITY
General Taylor. Yes, sir. Thank you, Chairman Carper,
Ranking Member Coburn, distinguished Members of the Committee.
Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to
discuss threats to the homeland and the current threat
environment. I am mindful that tomorrow is September 11, and I
vividly remember where I was on that day 13 years ago, sitting
at the State Department as the coordinator for
counterterrorism.
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\1\ The joint prepared statement of Mr. Taylor and Ms. Spaulding
appears in the Appendix on page 38.
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What has changed since 2001? Are we any safer now? These
are questions that have been repeated countless times since
that tragic day, and rightfully so. I come before the Committee
today to outline the lessons we have learned since September
11, 2001, and how we are now postured to address evolving
threats in ways that we were not on September 10, 2001.
The lesson we have learned from September 11, 2001 is the
need to develop an agile homeland security enterprise that
constantly collaborates and shares information and
intelligence, to identify threats and risks, and to adjust
operations as necessary to address the range of challenges the
Nation faces.
The partners within the homeland security enterprise,
whether they are first responders at the local level of
decisionmakers in capital cities across America or here in our
Nation's capital, require predictive intelligence and
analytical products that help them to make informed decisions
to protect our citizens.
The cornerstone of our mission at DHS has always been, and
remains, protecting the Nation against terrorist attacks. In
fact, Secretary Johnson just yesterday reiterated that
counterterrorism is our most important mission at DHS. We are
vigilant in detecting and preventing terrorist threats that may
seek to penetrate the homeland from land, sea, or air. I will
first address the current terrorist environment and then
discuss threats to our efforts as they relate to each of the
Secretary's four priorities. And, Mr. Chairman, mindful of the
time limit, I will submit other remarks for the record and
summarize just a couple of things.
First, on terrorism, Core al-Qaeda, al-Qaeda in the Arabian
Peninsula (AQAP), and their affiliates remain a major concern
for the Department of Homeland Security. Despite senior
leadership deaths, the groups maintain the intent and
capability to conduct attacks against U.S. citizens and
facilities, and have demonstrated the ability to adjust their
tactics, techniques, and procedures for targeting the West in
innovative ways.
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) is a
terrorist group operating as if it were a military
organization, and their experience and successes on the
battlefields of Syria and Iraq have armed them with
capabilities most terrorist groups do not possess. At present,
DHS is unaware of any specific, credible threat to the U.S.
homeland from ISIL. However, we recognize that ISIL constitutes
an active and serious threat within the region and could
attempt attacks on U.S. targets overseas with little or no
warning.
ISIL exhibits a very sophisticated propaganda capability,
disseminating high-quality media content on multiple online
platforms, including social media, to enhance its appeal. Media
accounts of the conflict, and the propaganda in particular,
play a role in inspiring U.S. citizens to travel to Syria. We
are aware that a number of persons--more than 100--have either
made their way or tried to make their way to Syria over the
past few years to join the international foreign fighters.
I will conclude that AQAP has attempted three times to
attack the U.S. homeland. The airliner plot of December 2009,
an attempt against the U.S.-bound cargo planes in October 2010,
and an airline plot in May 2012 demonstrate their efforts to
adapt to aviation security procedures and underscore why
aviation security is a priority area outlined by Secretary
Johnson.
In response to these recent threats, generally from
overseas, over the past few months, DHS has taken steps to
enhance aviation security at overseas airports with direct
flights to the United States. And other nations have followed
suit with similar enhancements.
Mr. Chairman, I will conclude my remarks, and if you would,
allow me to submit the rest of them for the record.
Chairman Carper. Without objection, your entire statement
will be made part of the record. Thank you, General.
Ms. Spaulding, great to see you. Please proceed.
Ms. Spaulding. Thank you, Chairman, Ranking Member Coburn,
distinguished Members of the Committee. Thank you for this
opportunity to be here today. I am particularly pleased to be
here today with my colleague, Under Secretary Taylor, and with
our partners from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the
National Counterterrorism Center.
Under Secretary Taylor spoke with you about a range of
threats that the Department is focused on, and I am going to
amplify a bit with regard to the threat to cybersecurity and to
discuss the actions that we are taking with our critical
infrastructure partners to understand and address these
threats, both physical and cyber, through information sharing
and capability building.
First, however, I also want to note, as we approach this
13th anniversary of the attacks of September 11, 2001, three
efforts that we have underway to heighten public vigilance and
public awareness. This month, September, is National
Preparedness Month. October is National Cybersecurity Awareness
Month in which we focus on enhancing the resilience of this
Nation against cyber threats. And November is Critical
Infrastructure Security and Resilience Month. All three of
these are key mission areas for the Department, and all require
daily collaboration with our stakeholders in the private sector
and government at all levels.
Growing cyber threats are an increasing risk to critical
infrastructure, to our economy, and to our national security.
DHS uses cybersecurity information to reduce risk, to detect
and block cyber attacks on Federal civilian agencies, to help
critical infrastructure entities improve their own protection,
and also to use the information that we develop collaboratively
to protect their customers; and we maintain a trusted
environment for the private sector partners to collaborate on
cybersecurity threats and trends. This trust is based in large
part on our commitment to privacy, civil rights, and civil
liberties across all information-sharing programs, with a
particular emphasis on safeguarding personally identifiable
information.
So far this year, DHS' 24x7 cyber operations center, the
National Cybersecurity and Communications Integration Center
(NCCIC), has processed over 600,000 cyber incidents, issues
more than 10,000 actionable alerts, detected more than 55,000
vulnerabilities, and dispatched over 78 incident response teams
for onsite technical assistance.
Let me tell you about one recent success. Within the last
few weeks, the United States Secret Service shared information
on some malware with our Cybersecurity Ops Center for analysis.
The results of that analysis formed the basis for an actionable
alert that was distributed widely to our critical
infrastructure owners and operators and led U.S. businesses to
check their systems for this malware and identify and stop
ongoing cyber intrusions, thereby protecting their customers'
data.
While both the cybersecurity threat and the Nation's
dependence on cyber infrastructure has grown exponentially, the
legal framework, particularly regarding the articulation of the
Department's authorities, has not kept pace. As the Chairman
and the Ranking Member have noted, legislative action is vital.
Both the House and the Senate have made real progress on
cybersecurity legislation. I would like to personally thank
this Committee for all of its hard work that has ensured
progress on this front on a bipartisan basis.
But we are not over the finish line yet. As Secretary
Johnson wrote today, there are areas of legislation with strong
consensus: codifying the cybersecurity responsibilities of the
Department of Homeland Security, making it easier for DHS and
the private sector to work together to mitigate cyber-related
vulnerabilities, and enhancing the Department's ability to
recruit and retain that essential cybersecurity workforce.
These authorities are vital to ensuring that the Department has
the tools it needs to carry out its mission on behalf of the
Nation.
While deliberations continue on other elements of
cybersecurity legislation, we should not wait to pass
bipartisan and broadly supported bills. You have come so far,
and the threat is so great. I urge Congress to pass what it can
now, even as we continue to work hard on remaining provisions.
Let me close by emphasizing that DHS' mission to strengthen
the security and resilience of critical infrastructure requires
us to focus on physical risks to that infrastructure as well as
cyber risks. Because the majority of the Nation's critical
infrastructure is owned and operated by the private sector, DHS
works with those partners, primarily on a voluntary basis, to
understand the range of threats and hazards, share information,
and promote training and other capability building.
DHS and the Department of Energy, along with other
interagency partners, for example, provide classified and
unclassified threat briefings--we do this on a regular basis--
to energy Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) and industry
executives on physical and cyber threats.
In the wake of the terrorist attack on the shopping mall in
Nairobi, Kenya, DHS and the FBI engaged more than 400 major
malls across the United States to facilitate tabletop exercises
based on a similar attack involving active shooters and the use
of improvised explosive devices (IEDs). Working collaboratively
with our partners in the private sector, we are advancing our
core mission of strengthening the security and resilience of
our Nation's critical infrastructure against cyber and physical
threats.
Chairman Carper, Ranking Member Coburn, thank you for this
opportunity to testify today, and I look forward to taking your
questions.
Chairman Carper. Thank you. Thank you very much, Suzanne.
We look forward to asking a few of them, too.
Mr. Rasmussen, welcome aboard. Please proceed.
TESTIMONY OF NICHOLAS J. RASMUSSEN,\1\ DEPUTY DIRECTOR,
NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER, OFFICE OF THE DIRECTOR OF
NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE
Mr. Rasmussen. Thank you, Chairman Carper, thank you,
Ranking Member Coburn, and the Members of the Committee for the
opportunity to testify here today.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Rasmussen appears in the Appendix
on page 47.
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NCTC Director Matt Olsen and I do not often testify in open
hearings, and so today is an important opportunity, we believe,
to share our understanding of what we see as an evolving,
dynamic terrorist threat, and to share that understanding with
the Committee and with the American public. Indeed, earlier in
the summer, the 9/11 Commissioners challenged national security
leaders to communicate more regularly with the American public
about the threat, and we hope to do just that.
As I begin this morning, I would like to frame this
evolving threat in broad terms that are generally applicable
across the broad sweep of groups, of individual groups and
terrorist networks. The threat from terrorist groups that we
see today is geographically diffuse, from a diverse array of
actors, and it is proving over time to be both resilient and
adaptive to the counterterrorism pressure we are putting on it.
The global jihadist movement continues to increasingly
decentralize itself, both in terms of geography and in terms of
command and control. Geographically speaking, it is no longer
generally confined to the Afghanistan-Pakistan-South Asia
region. It now covers a broad swath of territory from the
Indian subcontinent, across the whole entire Middle East and
the Levant, and throughout northern Africa and western Africa
as well.
Of greatest concern are the terrorist groups such as ISIL
that have taken a foothold in areas where governance is lax,
where governments are unable to govern, and where lax security
has allowed groups to coalesce, train, and plot.
In terms of command and control, we also see a trend of
decentralization, with the emir of an al-Qaeda affiliate, AQAP,
now serving as the general deputy to al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-
Zawahiri.
Additionally, that al-Qaeda Core is increasingly
encouraging groups and individuals to act independently in
support of the global movement, with no longer holding an
expectation that regional affiliates will discuss or clear
their operational plans with al-Qaeda senior leadership prior
to execution. And this evolution is the result of an adaptive
enemy.
Our counterterrorism operations continue to degrade al-
Qaeda's core ability to lead the global terrorist movement and
to plan sophisticated attacks from its place in the Fatah. But
as a result of leaks and disclosures, including those
attributable to Edward Snowden, terrorists now understand the
scope and scale of Western collection capabilities, and they
are changing the way they communicate. They are adopting
encryption technologies. They are shifting accounts or avoiding
altogether the use of electronic communications, all of which
frustrate our counterterrorism efforts. In short, we cannot
connect the dots if we cannot collect the dots that matter the
most, and our collection is challenged in this new environment.
In the remaining time, Mr. Chairman, I would like to focus
on three specific areas: the threat from ISIL, the threat of
AQAP, and the threat we face from homegrown violent extremists
(HVE).
Starting with ISIL, the greatest threat from ISIL to the
United States and its interests is inside Iraq right now,
which, combined with Syria, constitutes ISIL's power center. As
we move further from that base of strength, ISIL's ability at
present to develop and execute significant, large-scale,
sophisticated attacks diminishes. This is not to say it does
not pose a threat outside the region. It certainly does.
Indeed, the arrest in France of an individual and the
subsequent discovery of explosive devices in his possession, as
well as the killing of four individuals as a Jewish museum in
Belgium provide clear evidence and indication of ISIL's
ambition to operate outside the Middle East. Both of the
responsible individuals, apprehended in Europe, who are in
custody, reportedly fought alongside ISIL elements in the
Middle East.
However, these examples also demonstrate that right now
ISIL's ability to carry out complex, large-scale attacks in the
West is currently limited. Left unchecked, however, that
capability is likely to grow and present a much more direct
threat to the homeland.
And with over 2,000 Westerners now believed to be fighting
in Syria and Iraq, we assess that the threat to Europe is
perhaps even more immediate. But, nevertheless, the United
States is not immune, as both the Chairman and the Ranking
Member noted.
Over 100 persons from a variety of backgrounds and from all
across the country have traveled or attempted to travel or
somehow indicated intent to travel to the region, including
some who have looked to engage with ISIL. Most of these
individuals are known or believed to have Western travel
documentation that would ease their re-entry into the United
States or into other countries, which is why identifying them
is a top priority for the United States and our partners.
That is why it is so important that the international
community challenge ISIL's regional ambitions now, degrade
their capabilities, and over time work together to defeat and
destroy ISIL. Left unchecked, ISIL poses an increasing threat
to all governments it considers apostate, not just to the
United States or European nations, but also Middle Eastern,
South Asian, and African nations as well.
Let me quickly turn to al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.
We continue to assess that AQAP remains the al-Qaeda affiliate
most likely to attempt transnational attacks against the United
States. The group's repeated efforts to conceal explosive
devices to destroy aircraft demonstrate its continued pursuit
of high-profile attacks against the West, its increasing
awareness of Western security procedures, and their efforts to
adapt to those procedures that we adopt.
The group also continues to present a high threat to U.S.
personnel and facilities inside Yemen and Saudi Arabia, and at
any one time we are tracking several plots to our interests
inside Yemen and inside the Arabian Peninsula hatched by al-
Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.
The group also continues, as the Committee well knows, its
efforts to radicalize and mobilize individuals outside Yemen
through the use of Inspire Magazine, their English language
publication. The most recent issue, its 12th issue of Inspire,
was released back in March, and it continued to encourage lone
wolf or lone offender attacks on the West, citing specific
targets in the United States, the U.K., and France.
Let me also say a few quick words about homegrown violent
extremists. The boundless online virtual environment we see
today combined with terrorists' increasingly sophisticated use
of social media makes it increasingly difficult for us to
protect our youth from messaging that is designed to radicalize
and motivate to action homegrown violent extremists. We at NCTC
are working very closely with our partners at DHS, at FBI, and
the Department of Justice to inform and equip families,
communities, local governments, and local institutions, all of
whom provide the best offense and have the greatest ability to
counter the narrative of violent extremism in their
communities.
Despite our efforts, however, HVEs remain the most likely
immediate threat to the homeland, individual action by
individual HVEs. We expect the overall level of HVE activity to
remain about the same as what we have seen in recent years over
the course of the next year, and by that I mean we would expect
to see a handful of uncoordinated and mostly unsophisticated
plots emanating from a pool of HVEs that amounts up to a few
hundred individuals.
Last year's Boston bombing certainly underscored the threat
from HVEs who were motivated, often with little or no warning,
to act violently by themselves or in small groups. And as we
have discussed with this Committee, these lone actors who act
autonomously are the most difficult to detect or disrupt.
Mr. Chairman, during your April 30 hearing, you noted that
identifying and deterring terrorist plots by lone wolves was
extremely challenging to the counterterrorism and homeland
security community, and I think everybody here would agree with
that assessment.
Last, let me take one moment to talk about just one of our
efforts at NCTC to counter the array of threats I have just
outlined, and that is through identifying it more precisely, by
putting a face and a name to that threat whenever possible. As
you know, under the law, NCTC is charged with maintaining the
United States Government's central and shared knowledge bank of
known and suspected terrorists as well as their contacts and
their support networks.
NCTC's Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment (TIDE), is
our database of known and suspected international terrorists,
and it helps us ensure that all relevant information collected
by the government about identified individuals, including
individuals who we have identified as Syrian foreign fighters.
All that information is shared with appropriate intelligence,
law enforcement, and screening agencies. We are absolutely
relentless in the efforts to ensure that the data in TIDE is as
accurate as possible, that it is entered accurately, and that
our records are as comprehensive as they can possibly be. And
we are mindful of privacy and civil liberties concerns,
particularly with respect to U.S. persons.
In the case of U.S. persons, any nomination to TIDE goes
through at least four layers of review, including a legal level
of review, to ensure that the underlying derogatory information
is sufficient and meets established legal standards.
Our management at NCTC of this unique consolidation of
terrorist identities has created a valuable forum for
identifying and sharing information with our partners in the
community, and it has better integrated our collective efforts
to identify, enhance, and expedite the nomination of
individuals we assess to be Syrian foreign fighters and get
their names and their identities into the screening system. And
this work greatly increases the chances that we will be able to
disrupt potential terrorist activity by individuals as they
seek to return from Syria.
In closing, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, we
face an evolving, decentralized threat from a diffuse set of
actors who are adapting constantly to our countermeasures. That
is why NCTC and our partners within the intelligence community
(IC) must ourselves continue to adapt to this threat, operating
within the bounds of our existing authorities and resources. We
certainly appreciate the Committee's continued strong support
in these efforts, and I would encourage Senators to visit NCTC
to see firsthand the breadth of the work we are doing with our
counterterrorism partners.
Mr. Chairman, we had the honor of hosting you and several
of the Committee staff in recent weeks out at NCTC to talk in
great detail about some of those threats, and it was very
gratifying to see your interest in the work we are doing, along
with the FBI and DHS.
Thank you again for this opportunity.
Chairman Carper. Thank you. And can I mention that Dr.
Coburn and I not only enjoyed being with you and having a
chance to personally meet many of the folks who work there, but
to thank them for their service. It was informative for me and,
frankly, quite encouraging. So thanks for that.
Mr. Anderson, it is great to see you. Welcome. Please
proceed.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT ANDERSON, JR.,\1\ EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT
DIRECTOR, CRIMINAL, CYBER, RESPONSE, AND SERVICES BRANCH,
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Dr.
Coburn, and Members of the Committee. Thanks for the
opportunity to be here today to talk to you about the cyber and
terrorism threats to our Nation and how we are working together
with our partners to prevent and combat them.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Anderson appears in the Appendix
on page 57.
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In my role as the Executive Assistant Director of the FBI,
as the Chairman said, I manage multiple divisions within the
FBI, but the two I am going to concentrate on the most today is
the criminal and the cyber program.
As the Committee knows, the number of sophisticated cyber
attacks against our Nation's network have increased
dramatically over the recent years. We truly expect them to
continue to climb and grow. I could break down the threats to
our country in four broad categories from cyber: spies,
transnational organized criminals, terrorists, and hactivist
groups.
The bottom line is we are losing a lot of data, money,
ideas, and innovation to a wide range of cyber adversaries. FBI
Director Comey has recognized this, and the severity of the
threat has made cyber one of the No. 1 top priorities in the
FBI. Under his leadership, the FBI is continuing to strengthen
our cyber capabilities in the same way we enhanced our
intelligence and national security capabilities in the wake of
September 11, 2001.
Today's FBI is a national security and law enforcement
organization that uses intelligence to prevent and respond to
all types of threats. We constantly seek to understand the
threats we face in each of our offices, both here and abroad,
what is out there, what we see, and what we might be missing.
We know that to effectively combat the cyber threat, we
must continue to expand our partnerships both in government and
in the private sector. In fact, we expect Director Comey and
DHS Secretary Johnson will soon sign a new cyber unified
message for State and local law enforcement. This message makes
clear that Federal agencies are working together to ensure that
a call to one is a call to all when law enforcement partners
report information on a cyber attack or incident.
Also, for our law enforcement partners, we launched the
Cyber Shield Alliance, an online, one-stop shop to provide
cyber training as well as the ability to report cyber incidents
to the FBI.
Earlier this month, we deployed a malware repository and
analysis system known as Malware Investigator. It allows our
intelligence and law enforcement partners to submit malware
directly to the FBI, and we share with our partners for triage
and analysis of what is going on in cyber.
We are also significantly enhancing our collaboration with
the private sector. In the past, industry has provided us
information about attacks. We have investigated them, but we
really did not share or provide that information back. Now we
are.
As part of our enhanced outreach, we have provided nearly
40 classified sector-specific threat briefings to private
companies over the past year alone. Over the past several
months, the FBI and the Department of Justice (DOJ), along with
many partners both at this table and abroad, have announced a
series of indictments of cyber criminals. Just to name a few:
Encore Performance, which was obviously the indictment of the
five People's Liberation Army (PLA) Chinese hackers;
Blackshades, a remote access computer software that could steal
and infect hundreds of thousands of computers around the world.
We are calling these indictments ``the new normal'' because we
expect them to continue on a regular basis.
While the cyber threat is one of the FBI's highest
priorities, combating terrorism continues to be the No. 1
priority in the FBI. As conflict zones continue to emerge
throughout many parts of our world, we expect terrorist groups
to use this instability to recruit and incite acts of violence.
Syria remains a major concern as the ongoing conflict shows
no sign of subsiding. Due to the prolonged nature and the high
visibility of the Syrian conflict, we are concerned that U.S.
persons with an interest in committing jihad will be drawn to
that region of the world. We can address these issues much more
fulsomely in the closed session that follows this session, and
we look forward to doing that.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, to counter the threats we
face, we are engaging in an unprecedented level of
collaboration within the U.S. Government and with our private
sectors around the world and with the international law
enforcement organizations that we each at this table talk to
every day. We look forward to continuing to expand these
partnerships and to work with the Committee to defeat our cyber
and terrorist adversaries.
Thank you again very much for the opportunity to be here
today. I would be happy to answer any questions you or the
Committee may have. Thank you.
Chairman Carper. Mr. Anderson, thanks so much. Great to see
you. Thanks so much for joining us today.
The first question from me would be for perhaps Mr.
Rasmussen or General Taylor. One of the recurring themes in my
life is find out what works and do more of that. And I just
want to play off of that for a moment.
Go back about 7 years ago, Iraq, Sunni Awakening, and the
predecessor to ISIS was rolling along pretty well, and then not
so much. And under the enlightened leadership of General
Petraeus, I think the good work done by the fellow who has just
become the new Prime Minister of Iraq, working with the Sunni
tribal leaders, al-Qaeda in Iraq, the progress just stopped and
was greatly diminished, pushed back.
What can we gain from that lesson? Is there anything there
that can inform what we do today?
Mr. Rasmussen. Mr. Chairman, one of the things we have
tried to do as we have tried to think about the problem and the
threat posed by ISIL is to think of potential vulnerabilities
that the group has and to think of ways in which the progress
that they have made can be addressed. And you point to some of
the lessons that we may be able to learn from previous efforts
against al-Qaeda in Iraq, and there I think we did learn that
the group very much struggled to gain legitimacy across the
broader population of Iraq when that population in Iraq saw in
Baghdad a representative government that was responsive to
their needs. And so the ongoing transition in Baghdad that you
are seeing right now that you just alluded to I think is an
important step in potentially giving the Sunni population in
Iraq a signal that they do not have to turn or align or ally
with ISIL in order to have their issues addressed, to feel that
they are represented, that their interests are protected inside
Iraq.
So that is an important lesson learned. I think it is one
where we have seen progress in the last few weeks. But only
over time will we see if that kind of political transition
actually has that effect that we are looking to see. I do not
know that we can say yet how quickly that will happen, but it
is something that I think was a necessary precondition to any
strategy against ISIL.
Chairman Carper. Thanks very much.
General Taylor and maybe for you, Nick, one or both of you
mentioned that the ability for ISIS to mount an effective
attack against our homeland is limited, but it is not time for
us to sit back and just assume it is not going to come, but for
us to prepare and be ready for it. What are some ways that we
can do, are doing, or should be doing to prepare for that
eventuality and be better prepared for what should come? That
would be for both of you. General Taylor, why don't you lead it
off, and then we will give Nick some time as well, please.
General Taylor. Certainly, sir. As I mentioned, we assessed
the threat from ISIL primarily to be in the region.
Nonetheless, with the number of Europeans and Americans that
have gone to fight in Syria, that threat can manifest itself
back either in Europe or in the United States. I think we have
begun with the aviation security changes that we have made
since July to make it more difficult for people to try to get
explosives onto aircraft, to bring those aircraft down that
could be traveling to the United States. We have increased our
intelligence cooperation with our partners across the world in
attempting to identify people who have gone to serve or to
fight in Syria, because intelligence is the one thing that
helps us identify these individuals before they are able to
act, and using our intelligence systems to learn who they are
makes us much more effective in interdicting them.
And, third, I think the focus on Countering violent
extremists (CVE), homegrown violent extremist, getting our
communities aware of the risks----
Chairman Carper. Thank you.
General Taylor. As Nick mentioned, probably the most
immediate threat comes from a homegrown violent extremist who
listens to the propaganda, reads it, and decides that he or she
is going to answer the call and take up arms here in the United
States. And so community awareness, resilience around these
issues with our law enforcement partners in the field so that
they understand what those elements are and to look for them as
they encounter folks in communities I think is a big step
toward helping communities learn about this early so we can
respond.
Chairman Carper. OK. Thanks. Nick.
Mr. Rasmussen. The only thing I would add, Mr. Chairman,
are two things--one related to offense and one related to
defense. I think if you are going to get ahead of ISIL's effort
to over time develop a homeland threat capability, we have to
over time shrink the safe haven and attack the safe haven
inside Iraq. And that is something I know the President and the
Secretary of State have already spoken about in talking to our
foreign partners overseas, because absent that, the ability to
bring additional Western potential operatives into Iraq or
Syria into that safe haven and potentially train, equip, and
deploy them back out to Europe and the United States will
remain a threat.
The more defensive piece of business that I think we are
engaged in right now already and I think we are making good
progress on is just aggressive information sharing with all of
our foreign partners who face a similar problem. This is an
issue we have been engaged in with them for going on 18 months
now, engaging with our European partners, many of whom face
this problem even more acutely than we do in terms of their
citizens having an easier route and certainly easier path to
travel to Syria and Iraq.
Unlike a lot of situations where it is difficult to talk
with partners about information sharing about individuals, this
is a case where we are actually getting very little pushback.
They share the same sense of threat, and so the information
that we are able to share about individuals who have traveled
to Syria or Iraq can be used to potentially add to our
watchlisting and screening systems and give us a significant
leg up in our effort to disrupt travel when those individuals
seek to leave Syria and Iraq.
That is not a fail-safe. It is by no means the only pillar
of a defensive effort, but it is an important pillar, and it is
one that is not always very easy to get our partners to work
with us on. But in that case, that sense of shared threat is so
widely shared at all levels in the governments that we
typically work with in Europe that it is making that level of
interchange much more robust than it often is.
Chairman Carper. Thanks very much. My time has expired.
When we come back, either for a next round or maybe in our
closed session, Ms. Spaulding and Mr. Anderson, I want to visit
the issue of information sharing and the sequencing of Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) reauthorization
information sharing, either in the open session or the closed
session. Dr. Coburn.
Senator Coburn. Well, thank you. I hope the media that is
here today actually listened to what you had to say, Nick, a
very cogent, open assessment of where we are--not on the basis
to scare people but on the basis to inform them of where we
really are. I think the other thing that I would comment on is
I am really happy to see the FBI being aggressive on deterrence
because for so long we thought we could build a higher and
higher wall that people cannot climb over. They are going to
climb over every wall on cyber that we have. And we have to
have both efforts. We have to have the wall, but we also have
to have the prosecutorial deterrence that says you come at us,
it is going to be painful.
And so I am very thankful for that attitude coming from the
FBI. I hope to see more and more and more, both domestically
and internationally, because of the costs.
General Taylor, let me just ask you a couple of questions.
Has Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) produced any intelligence
product examining the vulnerabilities in the Immigration and
Customs Enforcement (ICE's) student exchange and visitors
program, the visa program, and whether it poses a threat to
national security?
General Taylor. Yes, sir, we have. We have published
several threat pieces to support the student visa program and
the risk that comes from that particular program, working with
ICE and with the Customs and Border Protection (CBP).
Senator Coburn. And are those public, or are those
classified?
General Taylor. I believe they are classified, Senator
Coburn, but I will check and get back to you.
Senator Coburn. I will ask more questions about them in the
closed hearing.
It is reported that millions of people are living here on
visa overstays. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) has
found that DHS is really struggling to track this population.
We understand that. Has I&A prepared any assessment of the
threat from the population of visa overstays? Do you have
anything that you have done on that?
General Taylor. We have, sir. We have helped ICE to
prioritize its focus on the visa overstays from a threat
perspective and certainly can share that with you in the closed
session.
Senator Coburn. All right. CBP has been very cooperative,
by the way. When we review the documents, what we see today is
approximately 700 miles of our Southern border that are not
secure. That is looking at the documents that you all give us.
Can you all prepare a current assessment of the coverage of the
border and the threat to national security posed by adversaries
that potentially might transcend that border?
General Taylor. Sir, if I understand your question, you are
asking can we--or have we?
Senator Coburn. I am asking you can you, given the basis of
where we stand?
General Taylor. Absolutely, yes, sir. I would also add,
sir, that the Secretary has directed a comprehensive Southern
border security strategy which will have an intelligence annex
to it that will address what you have just described, the risks
to the border and how we can better focus our efforts at
securing those gaps that we identify exist.
Senator Coburn. Do you have a timeline on that?
General Taylor. He just approved it, at least the concept,
and we are beginning to put meat on the bones. I cannot give
you an exact date, but I will certainly have the staff check
and get back with you.
Senator Coburn. All right. Thank you.
Mr. Anderson, does the FBI monitor cyber attacks against
the Federal Government?
Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir, we work to not only monitor cyber
attacks around the world with the Federal Government but also
the private sector.
Senator Coburn. OK. Can you tell me which departments,
major departments of the Federal Government, that have not been
hacked?
Mr. Anderson. I do not know if I could tell you that off
the top of my head, sir. I would probably have to go back and
look. I would say--and I think I agree with our current
Director--that if they have not been hacked--I do not know if
they have not been hacked or we have not realized that----
Senator Coburn. They have all been hacked, yes. If you
could go back and give us a list of what your records show?
Mr. Anderson. Sure.
Senator Coburn. And you can do that either in the secured
setting or in an open session, but I would like to see what you
all see on that. I mentioned the deterrence. I am really
pleased with that because I think you have to have both sides
of the sword working.
The rest of my questions, I think, Mr. Chairman, are for
the classified setting, so I will wait and ask those of Nick
and Suzanne and others in the classified session.
Chairman Carper. Thank you. And the order of joining us at
the hearing: Senator Johnson, Senator McCain, Senator Baldwin,
Senator Portman, and Senator Ayotte. Senator Johnson, you are
recognized.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON
Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to
associate myself with Senator Coburn's comments about the need
for us to face this reality, the need for the American people
to be informed. It is not about scaring people. It is about
facing reality.
General Taylor, we started the hearing asking, Are we
safer? I want to break that question down to two parts, because
I think there are two parts to it. One is: Do we have greater
defensive capability to keep us safe? But, then, has the threat
grown?
I just want your assessment of both of those. What is your
assessment over the last 13 years in terms of our defensive
capabilities? And, by the way, what is hampering our efforts?
And then really your assessment of the growing threat.
General Taylor. Thank you, Senator. As I mentioned, I was
State Department Coordinator for Counterterrorism on September
11, 2001, and was party to our efforts then and have watched
the government change its approach to this. Indeed, I think our
capacity to share information, to work together, is as good as
it has ever been in the history of our country. We work every
day with the FBI, with the NCTC, in gathering information and
sharing data. So in that sense, I think our capacity is much
more effective than it was 13 years ago. There is always room
for improvement and change, but I think the leadership of the
counterterrorism (CT) community of our government understands
that if we do not cooperate, bad things will happen.
I think the nature of the threat is--I think Nick probably
characterized it best. On September 11, 2001, we were focused
on al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Today al-Qaeda, al-
Qaeda adherents, and other jihadists are essentially global.
They are operating in North Africa. They are operating in the
Middle East. They are operating in South Asia. So much more
diverse. Nonetheless, they still see us as the enemy and,
therefore, a threat to the United States and our operations
around the world.
Senator Johnson. Mr. Rasmussen, I believe the threat is
growing. I think it is more grave. You had mentioned the effect
of Edward Snowden's disclosures. Has that degraded our ability
to protect ourselves? Has that degraded our intelligence-
gathering capabilities?
Mr. Rasmussen. I would argue yes. I can talk in greater
detail in a closed session about some of the specific
information or indicators we have seen that would lead me to
that conclusion. But I think it is inarguable that the
collection environment we are in--and we rely on collection to
be able to try to get ahead of terrorist plots. It is
inarguable that that collection environment is more challenging
today than it was if we had not been dealing with these
disclosures.
Senator Johnson. In a Foreign Relations Committee hearing,
we had Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Brett McGurk, and I
asked him directly: What threat does ISIS directly pose to the
United States? He talked about the 30 to 50 suicide bombers
funneling into Iraq that week. We had an Australian and a
German suicide bomber set themselves off, I believe in Baghdad.
We have seen the first American suicide bomber. I am concerned,
the talk coming out of this Administration that this may take 3
years.
First, let me ask you: Do you believe ISIS is something
that can be contained or managed versus destroyed?
Mr. Rasmussen. I think of this in phases. I think in the
near term, in the immediate term, you can take steps to degrade
and disrupt their ability to carry out attacks. But to prevent
yourself from having to deal with that in perpetuity, you have
to go beyond that and look to destroy or defeat the
organization, and that is what the Administration, the
President, and the Secretary of State have talked about over a
long period of time. That objective is not as easy to put a
specific time horizon to.
Senator Johnson. I understand, but I am concerned, kind of
like having a hornet's nest in your backyard. You identify the
threat; you want to get rid of it as quickly as possible. You
do not want to poke it with a stick for 3 years. So, again,
what I want to see is a clearly articulated goal of destroying
ISIS as quickly as possible so that we can then maintain our
defenses against the other threats that are metastasizing
around the world. Would you basically agree with that
assessment?
Mr. Rasmussen. I certainly share that goal. I think the
talk about the phasing is just simply a recognition that in
order to build the intelligence basis necessary to attack and
pull apart an organization and defeat it takes time.
Senator Johnson. OK. I understand.
Mr. Rasmussen. But while you are doing that, you try to put
great pressure on the organization so that it cannot punch you
in the process while you are going through that longer process.
Senator Johnson. I think one thing we always have to guard
against is always fighting the last war, only concentrating on
past threats. To what extent is the intelligence community
using our imagination in terms of looking at what other
possibilities just might be out there?
Mr. Rasmussen. We certainly are devoting time and attention
to that. Again, pressures of the day often lead you to focus on
what is the wolf closest to the door. And yet we also challenge
our analysts and our intelligence community partners to look
around the corner and see not only where the next groups might
come from, where the next theaters of concern might be, but
also what tactics and techniques and opportunities for
innovation might exist in the terrorism community as well. That
is harder and you are not often relying on much intelligence in
that setting. You are often, as you say, using your
imagination. But it is important work, and it helps us over
time to target our collection to try to get ahead of those
particular threats.
Cyber is one of those areas where we have not seen
terrorists necessarily develop great capability to date, but
they certainly understand the economic impact that intervention
in the cyber world causes. And so we assess that over time that
is a capability terrorist groups----
Senator Johnson. I want to cover that and explore that in
the secured briefing a little bit.
Secretary Spaulding, you talked about critical
infrastructure. You talked about what our physical and cyber
threats are. I want to talk about something that I have been
now briefed on, the threat of Electro Magnetic Pulse (EMP),
both in terms of a high-altitude nuclear blast, which is kind
of what I always knew existed out there, and I guess kind of
hoping that nobody has the capability or would not be stupid
enough to do it, but now also aware of the fact that a massive
solar flare also represents a real threat. That is something
that you are certainly aware of. Is that something we are
looking to harden our electrical grid against?
Ms. Spaulding. Absolutely, Senator, and thank you for the
question. It is certainly something that we have been focused
on and working with our colleagues in the electric sector to
find ways to address.
I was recently in the U.K. at an international conference,
an energy infrastructure security summit, where EMPs were a
clear focus of those discussions. This is something very much
on our radar screen and that we are working with them to
address.
Senator Johnson. OK. We will cover more of that. Just real
quick, in terms of the--for Mr. Anderson, the attack at the
Metcalf Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) substation, do we have
any further information you can share in open session in terms
of have we tracked down the perpetrators, have we come up with
theories in terms of what that was all about?
Mr. Anderson. We are heavily engaged in that investigation,
Senator, and it would be easier to describe to you everything
that we are doing inside the closed session.
Senator Johnson. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Carper. Thank you. Senator McCain.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MCCAIN
Senator McCain. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the
witnesses.
Mr. Taylor or Mr. Rasmussen, haven't there been recent
reports on Twitter and Facebook of messages that would urge
infiltration into the United States across our Southwestern
border?
General Taylor. Yes, sir, there have been Twitter social
media exchanges among ISIL adherents across the globe speaking
about that as a possibility.
Senator McCain. Would you view it as a threat?
General Taylor. Certainly any infiltration across our
border would be a threat, but in the course of our border
security----
Senator McCain. Are you satisfied that we have sufficient
border security to prevent that?
General Taylor. Sir, I am satisfied that we are trying to
build a border security capability that would address that----
Senator McCain. Are you satisfied that we now have the
capability to prevent that?
General Taylor. I am satisfied that we have the
intelligence and the capability at our border that would
prevent that activity.
Senator McCain. Well, it is interesting, because an
American reporter named James O'Keefe dressed as Osama bin
Laden walked across the border, the Rio Grande River,
undetected. Does something like that concern you?
General Taylor. Actually, sir, he was not undetected. He
was known to the border security agencies who saw him walk
across.
Senator McCain. Then why didn't they stop him when he came
across?
General Taylor. Sir, I cannot answer that question----
Senator McCain. No, you cannot answer it because they were
not there to stop him, and that is a matter of being on record.
The fact is that there are thousands of people who are
coming across our border who are undetected, who are not
identified. And for you to sit there and tell me that we have
the capability or now have the proper protections of our
Southwestern border, particularly in light of the urgings over
Facebook and Twitter for people to come across our Southwestern
border, is of great concern to the citizens of my State. I
would like to hear your response to that.
General Taylor. Sir, the security at the Southwest border
is of great concern to the Department, and certainly I
understand the concerns of the citizens of your State. If I
gave you the impression that I thought the border security was
what it needed to be to protect against all the risks coming
across the State, that is not what I intended to say.
Senator McCain. Could you give to the Committee for the
record what is required to achieve 90 percent effectiveness
control of the border and prevent this threat from
materializing? Because I do not think there is any doubt--I do
not see when you look at ISIS and the growth and the influence
of ISIS that it would be logical, as they are saying on
Facebook and Twitter, to come across our Southwest border,
because they can get across. And the flow of drugs across our
Southwest border has not been decreased by any significant
measure. Would you agree to that?
General Taylor. The flow of drugs continues to be
significant, yes, sir.
Senator McCain. Well, those of us who strongly supported
comprehensive immigration reform are deeply disappointed in our
lack of devotion of assets and funds and capabilities to secure
our Southwestern border, which has then created a credibility
problem in our States and across this country that we can
guarantee people, if we enacted comprehensive immigration
reform, that there would not be another flow of refugees or
illegal immigration into this country. Now we have this
phenomenon or, I guess, occurrence of thousands of young
children showing up at our border, not trying to sneak across
but just showing up at our border. It has tailed off some, but
it is still by the thousands. And isn't this diverting the
assets and the capabilities of our Border Patrol by having to
handle this incredible influx of children, diverting them from
other duties like trying to interdict drug smugglers and
others? And isn't it true, could I say to you--and it is really
astonishing to me how our friends on the left and those who are
``pro-immigration'' ignore the fact that the brutalities that
are inflicted on these young people, particularly young women,
as they are brought across by these coyotes is absolutely
abhorrent and unspeakable. Would you agree with that?
General Taylor. Absolutely, Senator, I would agree with it.
And to your earlier question, we not only assess, we believe
the Border Patrol has done an absolutely remarkable job in
handling the unaccompanied alien children (UAC) crisis, and----
Senator McCain. But they have been diverted, right?
General Taylor. It has been a priority, given the number of
people at our border, to focus on that issue, and certainly
with the resources as they are, resources are shifted to
priorities.
Senator McCain. So it has always been a national security
issue, but I believe that in light of the growth of ISIS and
the aggressiveness of ISIS and the information that they have
been able to recruit in the United States of America--we know
that because Americans have been killed over there--that it
seems to me it dramatically heightens our requirement to have a
secure Southern and Northern border. Would you agree with that?
General Taylor. I absolutely agree with it, Senator.
Senator McCain. Thank you. And finally, Mr. Rasmussen, it
is entertaining to me that it is like it all just happened with
ISIS, another wolf at the door. We have known about ISIS for 4
years. People like me and Lindsey Graham and many others have
known about it and warned about it and talked about it, while
we have done nothing to really stem the tide and the growth of
ISIS and the chaos that we now see pervading Iraq and Syria.
Some of us are hopeful that the President of the United States
will finally recognize that threat and outline to the American
people some actions that need to be taken. But many of us
predicted this, many saw it coming, and it comes as no
surprise.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Carper. You are welcome. We thank you as well.
Senator Baldwin, and then Senator Portman, and Senator
Ayotte. Senator Baldwin.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BALDWIN
Senator Baldwin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Taylor and Mr. Rasmussen, I want to talk a little bit
more about the estimated more than 100 U.S. persons who have
left to join the fight in Syria. I think that is how it was
phrased. And I just want to get a sense of, is this an estimate
or do we have a sense of actually who these 100-plus people
are, names, where they are from, et cetera? How much detail do
we have? Or are we basically just estimating that it is about
100?
Mr. Rasmussen. I will take a stab at that, Senator. That
number is actually meant to capture a number of categories of
individuals who have shown an intent to travel and that travel
has not happened, individuals who have traveled, individuals
who have traveled and come back, individuals who have traveled
and perhaps been killed in the fighting over there. And so that
number is somewhat all encompassing and does not necessarily
reflect an estimate of who is exactly there right now today.
There is more we can say with greater precision in the
closed session, but I think I can reassure you there is some
significant detail behind that broad number.
Senator Baldwin. Great. I am going to try to ask a couple
more questions in open session on this topic. We will see how
far we can get.
With regard to that number, is there differentiation, very
specific differentiation, between those who are actually
joining ISIL and those, for example--I traveled to Turkey now
over a year ago, but there were certainly American citizens of
Syrian descent who were there trying to provide humanitarian
relief in the fight or trying to do what they could to help the
moderate rebels, the moderate elements, try to participate in
battle there. Are we differentiating between those when we talk
about these rough numbers?
Mr. Rasmussen. Yes, we are. As I said, we are----
Senator Baldwin. OK.
Mr. Rasmussen. And in some cases, we know of individuals
who have indicated intent or have traveled to Syria who go over
not necessarily knowing who they will affiliate with when they
get there. They simply look to join the fight from an extremist
or jihadist perspective, and where they actually end up
affiliating plays out over time, and we may or may not have
intelligence on that. But you are right, the number of
individuals who have traveled to Syria can capture people who
engage in a wide variety of activities there.
Senator Baldwin. But that 100 or whatever we are tossing
around, over 100, you believe are engaged in the battle with
the ISIL extremists?
Mr. Rasmussen. With extremist elements. I want to be
careful and not pin it----
Senator Baldwin. I understand.
Mr. Rasmussen [continuing]. Strictly to ISIL because, as
you know, there are a number of organizations----
Senator Baldwin. Right.
Mr. Rasmussen [continuing]. Over there, al-Nusra Front----
Senator Baldwin. And I am getting there, too. Before I get
to that second point, do we have a sense that, in particular,
our European allies have as granular information on their
citizens who have traveled to Syria as we do on ours?
Mr. Rasmussen. I think it is not a constant picture across
the whole of Europe. I think in some cases, with some of our
partners with whom we work the most closely, the answer is
absolutely yes. They have a very detailed understanding of
individuals, and, in fact, they have done a great deal of work
talking to in many cases individuals who have come back from
Syria in order to try to understand both the appeal and the
draw, but also the experiences those individuals had and how
they may play--what contribution to the threat picture back in
their homes that they may present. And I know that a
significant amount of law enforcement effort in the United
Kingdom, for example, is devoted to just that effort.
But I would not argue that this is constant across the
whole of Europe. In many of the particularly Southern and
Eastern European partners which are closer to the front line of
travel to Turkey and Syria, their capabilities just simply are
not as well developed, they are not as well resourced to handle
a large national security challenge like this in the way that
some of our more traditional partners are.
But as I pointed out in my statement, there is a bit of a
good-news story in that the willingness to at least lock arms
with us and share information is something we have seen pretty
constantly across the board.
Chairman Carper. Senator Baldwin, just to interrupt for a
second, Senator Coburn as a member of the Intel Committee just
shared with me a cautionary note. You will have a good feeling
for what is appropriate to say in an open setting and what is
more appropriate to say in a closed setting, again, if you ask
questions that you think should be deferred to the next part of
our hearing, please do that. Go right ahead.
Senator Baldwin. So do we have a sense of how many U.S.
nationals are engaged with al-Qaeda globally, and obviously
there is a much greater fragmentation and even in particular
al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula? Do we have that same sort of
granular information there?
Mr. Rasmussen. Again, I think it varies depending on which
al-Qaeda affiliate group you are talking about, and we can
certainly talk about specific cases involving specific known
individuals in another setting.
Senator Baldwin. OK. And then can you describe in open
session for the Committee what we know, what our intelligence
has said about the relationship between ISIL and al-Qaeda? Is
it a rivalry? Is it cooperative? Are they rooting each other
on? What do we know at this point about their relationship?
Mr. Rasmussen. Well, one of the things that I think has
been a development that we have spent a great deal of time
trying to understand and assess is the degree of conflict
intention between ISIL and Core al-Qaeda leadership, as I said,
resident in the Fatah. And I think what you could argue now you
are seeing, in a sense, a contest or a competition for primacy
in that overall effort to lead the global jihad, with ISIL
increasingly posturing itself as the legitimate follow-on or
heir to Osama bin Laden and the al-Qaeda vision. And what that
is also doing is causing, I would argue, intellectual ferment
in that broader jihadist community around the world--we see
this in other al-Qaeda affiliates--as they seek to decide for
themselves, Do we align with ISIL or do we maintain fidelity to
our traditional bonds of loyalty to al-Qaeda Core?
I think one thing we can observe pretty obviously is that
success breeds success, and so that when ISIL has had success
on the battlefield in taking over large swaths of territory in
Iraq, that has served as a draw not only to foreign fighters
who might want to choose where to bring their capabilities, but
also to individuals who may be affiliated with other al-Qaeda
groups who decide, ``I would like to go where the jihad is the
most hot and where my ability to impact global jihad can be
felt most acutely.'' And there is no doubt that at the level of
individual al-Qaeda-affiliated individuals, that draw is out
there. And it is something that we will see that will play out
over time, whether ISIL would supplant al-Qaeda Core in terms
of overall leadership of the global jihad. But it is clear if
things trended in this direction for a long period of time, one
could make that argument.
Senator Baldwin. Thank you.
Chairman Carper. All right. Thank you, Senator Baldwin.
Senator Portman, please.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PORTMAN
Senator Portman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate
the testimony today and the opportunity to ask followup
questions in another session.
There is so much to go over, but I want to talk a little
about what you have said today and what some of my colleagues
have asked about in terms of Iraq and ISIL and how we got in
this situation that we are in. Because I think it is important
not only to determine what we do now in Iraq but also to look
to Afghanistan and what we are doing or not doing there to
ensure that we do not have a similar situation.
With regard to Afghanistan, how do you assess the security
forces there, the Afghan security forces, as compared to the
Iraqi security forces, Mr. Rasmussen?
Mr. Rasmussen. I would want to come back----
Senator Portman. Specifically their capability to conduct
counterterrorism operations against the Taliban and al-Qaeda
partners.
Mr. Rasmussen. I believe we have made a substantial amount
of progress in bringing the Afghan National Security Force up
to the level where they can carry out counterterrorist
operations against known terrorist targets inside Afghanistan.
What we will not know until we see over time is whether the
Afghan Government is able to sustain that capability, invest
and resource and sustain that capability over time so that they
are able to do this as they encounter threats----
Senator Portman. Do you think they have greater
capabilities than the Iraqi security forces, assuming that, as
was the case over the last few years, there is no U.S. support?
Mr. Rasmussen. I am reluctant to put it in comparative
terms because I am not sure I have the right expertise or
knowledge to do that, and I would be happy to get you an answer
to that from----
Senator Portman. I think it would be interesting. I mean,
here is my feeling from some of your reports which were made
public and other assessments, is that, in fact, the Iraqi
security forces were further along at the time at which we
chose to pull out. And if we decide to do the same thing in
Afghanistan and that the President has said that he has plans
to have no more troops in Afghanistan by the end of 2016, that
we may have a similar and I would say worse situation given the
assessment of their capability to be able to have an effective
counterterrorism operation.
So I would just make the obvious point that we need your
help in terms of learning lessons from Iraq and hopefully
taking those lessons to Afghanistan.
There has been a lot of attention recently to President
Obama's comments last January about regional terrorist groups
being like JV teams in relation to ISIL's seizing of Fallujah.
I am sure you have followed that back and forth. And, Mr.
Taylor, General Taylor, and Mr. Rasmussen, I am not going to
ask you if you shared that assessment at the time because the
President indicated that was an assessment that he had. But I
will say, given all the bloodshed and resources expended in the
two attempts to take Fallujah in 2004--and I was privileged to
go there at one point in the 2004-05 time period, and those
years of toil by our marines and soldiers in Anbar that
followed to make it a peaceful place, those comments are
particularly disconcerting. As you all know, we took serious
losses. In one 6-month period in 2005, Ohio's reserve marine
infantry battalion lost 46 marines; 22 were killed from one
rifle company in Columbus. So obviously the struggle affects a
lot of our communities, including back home in Ohio.
I would ask you, Mr. Rasmussen, in 2013, did the
intelligence community identify that al-Qaeda-associated groups
in Syria had expressed interest in external operations?
Mr. Rasmussen. Yes, and we can talk about that more in
closed session.
Senator Portman. OK.
Mr. Rasmussen. But yes.
Senator Portman. In 2013, did the intelligence community
assess that a threat existed to Western Europe and the homeland
from the flow of foreign fighters to and from Syria and Iraq?
Mr. Rasmussen. Absolutely.
Senator Portman. Do you assess that the Iraqi security
forces who earlier this year had been operating without U.S.
troops by their side for 2 years took any successful actions to
wrest control of Fallujah from ISIL after they seized it in
January 2014, earlier this year?
Mr. Rasmussen. I would like to get an answer for the record
for you on that, because I am certainly aware of Iraqi security
force counterterrorism actions, but I want to be specifically
responsive----
Senator Portman. Well, let me ask a more general question.
Were they successful in wresting control back?
Mr. Rasmussen. Not in wresting control back of the areas
you describe, as I understand it.
Senator Portman. OK. I just think, again, we should learn
some lessons from this. Finally, I would say do you assess that
over the last 2 years that ISIL exploited access to fighters
and resources in Syria as well as inconsistent counterterrorism
operations or pressure from the Iraqis in Iraq to escalate
their operations?
Mr. Rasmussen. It is certainly true that they have
escalated their operations and they have taken advantage of the
lack of a real border between Iraq and Syria, which has allowed
them to move resources back and forth to escape
counterterrorism pressure, whether it comes from the Iraqi
security forces or other elements inside Syria who are
fighting.
Senator Portman. Well, I think your answers to these
questions are helpful in terms of us understanding what we
should be doing in Iraq, but also, again, looking forward to
Afghanistan, being sure that we are prepared to take the steps
to avoid a repeat of this.
Let me change topics, if I could, and this has to do with
the Ebola crisis. General Taylor, I am interested to hear what
work your office is doing to monitor the spread of Ebola in
Africa. We now have over 2,300 people who have died. The World
Health Organization (WHO) tells us today they expect 20,000
people to die relatively soon. There are other groups that have
much higher estimates. As you know, we had another U.S. citizen
infected this week.
If you could tell me, how are you monitoring this situation
in Africa? What are you all doing?
General Taylor. Sir, I&A, my office, works with our Office
of Health Affairs who is leading the effort of the Department
in an interagency response to the Ebola virus and its
consequences potentially to the United States as well as in the
Africa region. There are daily interagency meetings on that
issue and trying to get aid to those countries to stem the
spread of the virus, which has been----
Senator Portman. Do you feel we have an effective
interagency and intergovernmental coordination?
General Taylor. I think we have effective U.S. interagency
and intergovernmental coordination, but this is a global
problem, and it is going to take a global solution to solve it.
And the nations in the region are less capable in certain cases
of handling the kind of infection that they are seeing, so it
will require a global effort to stem this particular issue.
Senator Portman. General Taylor, I understand Health
Affairs is taking the lead here, but have you had the
opportunity to look at what the U.S. Government did in
relationship to malaria in the Malaria Initiative, the
intergovernmental and in that case interagency process that we
use?
General Taylor. I have not personally looked at it, sir. I
am just only aware of the efforts. My most recent experience
has been with H1N1, which I think we had a very effective
interagency coordination on that, but not the malaria.
Senator Portman. I am concerned that we are, again, not
being as aggressive as we could be, and I would just hope that
the agency would take a look at what we have done in the past,
and we have been relatively successful, not just with AIDS but
also with the specific steps that we are taking on the Malaria
Initiative to try to get more countries engaged and deal with
the issue.
One final question. Do you have any insights on how you see
the spread of Ebola developing and what we should be doing here
in this country? I noticed that, Ms. Spaulding, you talked
about the National Preparedness Month, and one of my concerns
is, based on some recent reports, we are not prepared. We have,
unfortunately, a situation where if a pandemic were to occur,
there are some shortfalls, including expirations on some of the
medical response that will be necessary. Do you have thoughts
about that?
General Taylor. Sir, I would prefer to respond in a more
holistic way in consultation with my colleagues, so if I could
take that----
Senator Portman. We would appreciate you getting back to
the Committee on that.
General Taylor. Yes, sir.
Senator Portman. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Carper. Thank you. Thanks for those questions,
especially the last one. Senator Ayotte, after you have spoken,
asked questions, I am going to give Mr. Anderson an
opportunity--we have not picked on you enough. I will just give
you one opportunity for any point that you want to make or
share with us in the open session before we go to the closed
session. You will have that opportunity, OK?
For now, Senator Ayotte.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR AYOTTE
Senator Ayotte. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank
you for holding this important hearing. I want to thank our
witnesses for what they do to keep the country safe.
Secretary Taylor, I wanted to followup on some of the
questions that Senator Baldwin had asked, and I would ask all
of you to give me some insight on a comment that I heard from
our FBI Director. I think it is important that the American
people understand what we are dealing with in terms of not only
Americans but Westerners who have potentially traveled to Syria
or have interest in traveling to Syria and joining with one of
these extremist groups, including ISIL.
So you had testified that more than 100 U.S. persons you
are tracking, and you have identified those as those who have
intended to go, those who have gone, and some of whom have been
actually engaged and killed in this conflict.
I note that the FBI Director Comey said in August, ``When I
give you the number of 100 Americans, I cannot tell you with
high confidence that it is 100 or 200, that it is 100 or 500,
that it is 100 or 1,000 more, because it is so hard to track.''
Here is a very important question that I think people need to
know, and that is, do we really know? And how many of these do
we really have track of? And how many don't we have track of?
General Taylor. Senator, I would share Director Comey's
comments in terms of we do not know what we do not know, and I
think that is the context in which he was making those
comments. I think we have very high confidence on the number
that we do know, and we have systems that help us identify more
day in and day out. So I could sit here today and give the
number of over 100, and tomorrow it may be that, based upon our
intelligence investigation with the FBI, we would have more
identities that we did not know about before.
Senator Ayotte. But is the reality that while we have
confidence in the 100, we really do not know how many more may
be part of this?
General Taylor. I think that is a fair statement.
Senator Ayotte. I assume that is why Director Comey, who I
certainly have a lot of respect for, made that statement when
he was specifically asked about how confident we are in the
number of 100.
General Taylor. Well, given homegrown violent extremism,
given the nature of how people radicalize, given the nature of
the data on the Internet, it is very difficult to say with any
degree of certainty that we know all that could be wanting to
join this particular effort.
Senator Ayotte. So we know that it may be more than the 100
that we are talking about. With respect to the 100 that we do
know, do we have track of all of them?
General Taylor. Yes, ma'am, I would defer to my colleagues
at the FBI who lead the joint task force looking at this issue
for our government.
Mr. Anderson. Senator, if I could address that, so I agree
with General Taylor wholeheartedly. I could tell you any
individual--and they definitely fit into the three categories
that Mr. Rasmussen had talked about. Any individual that we can
predicate an investigation on, the FBI has an open case on that
individual, whether they are abroad or in the United States. We
also dedicate an immense amount of resources to covering the
individuals that we know about. I cannot actually get into all
those in this session, but we will in detail in the next
session.
Senator Ayotte. Let me ask you, the 100 that we know about,
what authorities do we have to revoke their passports? In other
words, you are a United States citizen. Obviously you are
entitled to certain rights. But what can we do to make sure
that they cannot get back in the community if we believe that
they have joined, for example, an extremist group like ISIL who
has brutally and horrifically murdered two American
journalists?
General Taylor. Senator, it is a very complicated question
in terms of taking away an American's passport. There are
judicial means to do that. I am not an expert in that, but we
can get you the answer of what are the authorities that would
allow for that to happen.
Senator Ayotte. Well, I think that is really important
because we need to understand. We certainly do not want a
situation where you all talk to someone, you do not have the
authority to detain them, we are in a position where they have
to appear before a judicial authority, but in the interim they
are not detained and they have open access in America. So I
would like a followup to know what those processes are, what
tools you have at your hands when there is obviously evidence
that an American is involved with a group like ISIL so that we
can understand whether those authorities are sufficient. So I
would appreciate a follow-up on that.
I also wanted to ask, what I understand from hearing your
testimony today is that you said that the threat of ISIL is
really regionally focused, meaning the region of where they are
operating in Iraq and Syria and the surrounding regions. What
kind of access do they have to financing?
Mr. Rasmussen. That has been one of our great concerns as
ISIL has surged in Iraq, is that they have had the ability to
draw on a wider array of sources for financing, including
kidnap for ransom, simply occupying and taking over Federal
Reserve holdings----
Senator Ayotte. I saw an estimate of they are making at
least $1 million a day. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. Rasmussen. That is a fair estimate.
Senator Ayotte. OK. And as I understand, they have safe
havens in Syria, correct?
Mr. Rasmussen. Yes.
Senator Ayotte. And they are obviously taking over more
territory in Iraq, correct? That is their design and one of the
concerns we have with regard to what is happening in Iraq right
now?
Mr. Rasmussen. That is their ambition. In Iraq in recent
weeks, Iraqi security force action in combination with United
States military action has stemmed the ability of ISIL to gain
more territory.
Senator Ayotte. But they have some territory right now, you
would agree with me.
Mr. Rasmussen. Yes.
Senator Ayotte. They have territory in Syria; they have
territory in Iraq. They have a means to make money. And when we
think about this threat on the passport issue, it is not just
about Americans, right? I know, Secretary Taylor, in your
testimony there are about 2,000 Westerners, but I have also
seen estimates of 7,500 potential foreign fighters from all
different countries that have joined this conflict, starting in
Syria. I do not know how many of those have joined ISIL, but
this threat goes beyond thinking about Americans.
I know you talked about a good news story about more
communication between other countries with regard to these
individuals who have joined these extremist groups. But we also
have a visa waiver program with countries like the United
Kingdom and France, and so how good is our intelligence and
ability to track those individuals? We talked about the 100, so
we are worried about our people. But thinking about the
individuals that do not need a visa to come travel to the
United States of America, and as I understand it, there are
actually thousands--the numbers that Great Britain is facing is
much greater even than the United States. Can you give us a
good assessment of how good a track we have on them and what
ability we have to stop them from coming to the United States
or to know exactly where they are so that we do not face a
situation where someone is--the James Foley video, that
individual who committed that barbaric murder, he was clearly
from Great Britain. You could tell from his accent. So an
individual like that coming to the United States and then
participating in an action here.
So can you give us a little more insight on that? Because I
think it is important for people to understand.
General Taylor. Yes, ma'am. I would defer to Nick to talk
about the intelligence cooperation that we have, which is
significant, with our European partners and daily we exchange
information. More importantly, a visa waiver does not mean
people come to this country without screening. Every passenger
coming to the United States from outside the United States is
screened through our terrorist screening system, and if there
is derogatory data, they are not allowed to come to the United
States. So----
Senator Ayotte. But that assumes we have the data, correct?
General Taylor. Well, that assumes we have the data, and
that is what intelligence collaboration and cooperation is all
about, is making sure that, with our partners in Europe and
other places, we are getting that data and getting it in a
consistent fashion.
Senator Ayotte. So I think this is all obviously a very
important issue as well as knowing and tracking who these
individuals are, if we do not have the data, we may just allow
them in our country without being able to stop them from
coming.
My time is up, but I just want to say one thing that
concerns me. I know we have talked today about believing that
the focus on the threat of ISIL is a regional threat, but here
we have a sophisticated terrorist organization which our own
Secretary of Defense has said is beyond anything that we have
seen. And, in fact, we have a situation where, Secretary
Dempsey described this group as ``an imminent threat,'' and
combined with the fact that they have financial means to make
money. They have territory and some safe havens. We know that
in January their leader basically threatened the United States
of America. We have seen through their actions with the brutal
murders of these two journalists that obviously the threat that
they face--the type of barbaric actions they are willing to
take against Americans. And then we know that if these people
who join this, if we are not quite sure how many there are and
who could return to the United States. I am concerned that it
is an understatement to say that this is a regional threat in
terms of what it might present to us in our homeland.
Mr. Rasmussen. Mr. Chairman, can I respond to just one----
Chairman Carper. Yes, just briefly.
Mr. Rasmussen. By using the word ``regional'' in my remarks
at the beginning, I by no means meant to imply not directed at
the United States or U.S. citizens, because certainly today,
currently, ISIL has the capability to threaten U.S. persons and
interests not just in Iraq proper but in surrounding regional
States. So our embassies, our personnel, our diplomats, and
even non-official Americans are certainly----
Senator Ayotte. But what about here?
Mr. Rasmussen. As I said, if allowed over time to utilize
the safe haven that they currently are enjoying----
Senator Ayotte. So right now you do not think they have
that capacity.
Mr. Rasmussen. Right now we assess that they do not have
active, ongoing plots aimed at the United States homeland.
Senator Ayotte. So that is a different question of whether
they have the capacity. We do not know of any active, ongoing
threats or plots, but----
Mr. Rasmussen. And we do not assess right now that they
have the capability to mount an effective, large-scale plot
inside the United States.
Senator Ayotte. Large scale, correct?
Mr. Rasmussen. Another piece of this that you cannot
necessarily account for are individuals that we talked about
under the category of homegrown violent extremists who may
self-identify as acting in sympathy with or in support of ISIL,
maybe perhaps not even ever having touched ISIL leadership in
any kind of command and control way, but in the aftermath of a
potential attack, even here in the homeland, might self-
affiliate and describe--so I do not mean by any means to
minimize the threat to ISIL. That is not my intent. I was
simply trying to describe in, kind of in a sense, concentric
rings the levels of concern that we have at present versus what
we see developing more over time.
Senator Ayotte. Thank you.
Mr. Rasmussen. There is no doubt that what you have
described with the foreign fighters is what gives them the
capability to threaten the homeland over the longer term.
Senator Ayotte. OK. Thank you.
Senator Coburn. I would just add one point. You have to
take, in fact, the exhortation of various members of ISIL to
come across our Southern border. It is out there. It is in the
social media. So I know you all are looking at that, but the
fact is that is pretty scary because you talk about what we do
not know. We do not know the people who are coming across our
border, what their threat is to us. We do not know.
Chairman Carper. I said, Mr. Anderson, we would give you an
opportunity to have a closing thought, please.
Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I could, I would
just make a closing remark and turn back to cyber for a second.
The one thing that I think the Committee needs to know--and
they probably do--is when it comes to cyber, I have never seen
more cooperation in my entire law enforcement career than I
have in the last year or so. The people at this table, DHS,
Secret Service, a large variety of our intelligence partners,
we all get it. We get that this is something that is going to
go through from now to the next several years in our
government. This is a deep concern of ours, to work together
and work toward a fix.
When we talked a little while ago about a number of Federal
departments within our government possibly could be hacked, or
if they were hacked and they just did not know about it. I
think one of the things that I know we are all working on and I
know the legislature up here is also, we are trying to figure
out how we share real-time information with our private sector
partners. I think that is absolutely imperative, Mr. Chairman,
and I think my colleagues here would echo that. And one of the
main reasons is because everyone knows a lot of our classified
and very sensitive technologies are developed, designed, and
then built out in the private sector way before they are ever
classified. Our adversaries know this, whether it is
counterintelligence, counterespionage, economic espionage,
counterterrorism. I have had the pleasure over the years to
testify as the Assistant Director of Counterintelligence to
Chairman Feinstein, also Dr. Coburn many times regarding this
kind of scare for us. And I would tell you that the one thing
that I see is the whole of government coming together as one on
this threat and really working toward a positive fix.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Carper. And I would just add to that, the threat
of ISIS and these other terrorist groups, are they a threat?
Sure they are, and we have to be eternally vigilant. And this
is not any time to pat ourselves on the back and become
complacent. If anything, it is time to be more vigilant. We
will see what the President has to say tonight. I hope he will
be very strong. I hope he will lay out a game plan that will
enable us, working with an armada of other nations around the
world, to destroy this threat. And that is what I am looking
for, and hopefully that is what we will get.
I would also say just one last word. I always come back to
underlying causes, root causes. And, Nick, when I visited, we
talked about underlying and root causes. And I would just say a
couple of them.
One underlying cause, al-Qaeda in Iraq was on their back,
they were almost done about 7 years ago. And the policies of
the Iraqi Government actually helped them get off the mat and
back into the game and to be the threat that they are today.
And my hope is that the new prime minister, the new government
that is being stood up in Iraq will be part of the solution to
help us accomplish what we did 7 years ago and to do it again,
and only this time for good.
All right. You have been great to be here with us. I
appreciate our colleagues being here as well. We are going to
move to a secured setting, and with that, this portion of the
hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:16 a.m., the Committee proceeded to other
business.]
A P P E N D I X
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