[House Hearing, 113 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
ISLAMIST FOREIGN FIGHTERS RETURNING HOME AND THE THREAT TO EUROPE
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON EUROPE, EURASIA, AND EMERGING THREATS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
SEPTEMBER 19, 2014
__________
Serial No. 113-217
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American
DANA ROHRABACHER, California Samoa
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio BRAD SHERMAN, California
JOE WILSON, South Carolina GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey
TED POE, Texas GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
MATT SALMON, Arizona THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina KAREN BASS, California
ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
MO BROOKS, Alabama DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
TOM COTTON, Arkansas ALAN GRAYSON, Florida
PAUL COOK, California JUAN VARGAS, California
GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina BRADLEY S. SCHNEIDER, Illinois
RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas JOSEPH P. KENNEDY III,
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania Massachusetts
STEVE STOCKMAN, Texas AMI BERA, California
RON DeSANTIS, Florida ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California
TREY RADEL, Florida--resigned 1/27/ GRACE MENG, New York
14 deg. LOIS FRANKEL, Florida
DOUG COLLINS, Georgia TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii
MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
TED S. YOHO, Florida
LUKE MESSER, Indiana--resigned 5/
20/14
SEAN DUFFY, Wisconsin
added 5/29/14
CURT CLAWSON, Florida--
added 7/9/14
Amy Porter, Chief of Staff Thomas Sheehy, Staff Director
Jason Steinbaum, Democratic Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on Europe, Eurasia, and Emerging Threats
DANA ROHRABACHER, California, Chairman
TED POE, Texas WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey
PAUL COOK, California BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California
STEVE STOCKMAN, Texas
C O N T E N T S
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Page
WITNESSES
Ms. Farah Pandith, Fisher Family fellow, Belfer Center, Harvard
Kennedy School of Government (former U.S. Special
Representative to Muslim Communities).......................... 6
Mr. Thomas Joscelyn, senior fellow, Foundation for Defense of
Democracies.................................................... 15
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
Ms. Farah Pandith: Prepared statement............................ 9
Mr. Thomas Joscelyn: Prepared statement.......................... 18
APPENDIX
Hearing notice................................................... 38
Hearing minutes.................................................. 39
ISLAMIST FOREIGN FIGHTERS RETURNING HOME AND THE THREAT TO EUROPE
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FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 19, 2014
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Europe, Eurasia, and Emerging Threats,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:24 a.m., in
room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Dana Rohrabacher
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. Rohrbacher. I call this hearing to order.
And this is the Subcommitteeq on Europe, Eurasia, and
Emerging Threats. And today we will be discussing an emerging
threat to Europe, which is an area that we are focused on, but
it is also an emerging threat to the world.
And I am going to handle things a little differently for
this hearing. I am going to permit my--or ask my ranking member
if he would move forward with his opening statement first.
I will then have my opening statement as chairman of the
subcommittee, and I will ask my colleagues if--to have short
opening statements as well.
I yield, then, to Mr. Keating.
Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this
important and timely hearing.
I would like to also thank our esteemed witnesses,
including Ms. Farah Pandith. And I am pleased that you are able
to join us. Ms. Pandith's uncle, Dr. Ashraf, and I have a long
history in Massachusetts, and I am so happy to see his legacy
live on through his niece, who is testifying before us today.
Today's hearing is particularly relevant, given the
geographic proximity of Europe to the conflict zone. Social
networking, the internet, the propaganda have become the
premier recruitment tools for terrorist gangs expanding their
reach far into Europe and to the United States. These tools are
cheap and effective. Even for the group like ISIL, who seems to
have plentiful resources, they are being used. For this reason,
I think that the nexus of our counterterrorism strategy should
focus on various facets of their recruitment and communication
strategy. This has been the root of the problem for decades and
this is what we must attack.
Of course, we will need the cooperation of our
transatlantic and regional partners to do this effectively. The
National Counterterrorism Center estimates that as of this
month, as many as 12,000 individuals have traveled to Syria
since 2011 in order to support the armed militants there. This
figure includes well over 1,000 European citizens and more than
100 Americans. The other estimates, particularly from our
allies overseas, expect these numbers to be even higher.
Europe can serve as a barometer for what may come in the
United States, and for this reason, we must continue to work
closely with our European partners and find ways to facilitate
better information-sharing and communication. The FBI and other
intelligence agencies are already working with domestic and
international partners to track foreign fighters traveling
through the Mideast.
As such, interagency cooperation and information-sharing
will undoubtedly be put to a test as agencies seek to
coordinate and respond to this threat, particularly across
international boundaries. For this reason, I for one will
continue to be a strong advocate for incorporating local law
enforcement into this framework and utilizing their force
multiplier effect.
Yet as I mentioned earlier, there is a larger piece of the
puzzle, and that is with the mindset and recruitment of these
militants who come to their Western nations to join brutal
gangs that go on to rape, kill and divide thousands, if not
millions, comes into bear.
As a transatlantic community, we can only fight the lure of
terrorism by determining its causes and devising appropriate
countermeasures. In particular, I feel the messages being
promoted, the heritage and the varied cultural history of the
Middle East and North Africa will be important to helping young
people to find their true identities instead of listening to
backwards propaganda seeking to destroy that history.
Further, although controversial, I think it is important to
reassess our partners in this fight. Are all the countries that
have been affected and impacted by foreign fighter and this
phenomenon doing what they can do to stem recruitment and
financing? Are they protecting those in their own population
and region from being coerced and harmed from these activities?
A true partner in countering radicalism would not only do what
they could do to curtail such activities from taking place
abroad, but would have zero tolerance for extremism to go
unchecked at home as well.
These are important questions to weigh when evaluating the
capabilities of our international partners, who in most cases
are more prone to attacks by radical groups than we are. Yet
radicalization is occurring across the world in rural and urban
settings, wealthy and poor communities, and among all education
levels.
In the long-run, we must ensure that courses of action we
pursue are not only targeting terrorist groups, but the
polarizing policies that often lead to this kind of societal
division.
Further, this composition now must include both genders,
for it is not only men who take up arms, but women who play an
integral role in the stabilization and organization of society
within ISIL and as well as other extremist groups. Muslim women
are growing up in increasingly conservative, closed
environments, and this will have an effect on future
generations.
The subject of today's hearing is of utmost concern to our
own national security, and I look forward to hearing each of
our witnesses' perspectives on this timely issue.
And with that, I thank the chairman and yield back.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Well, thanks very much. And this morning's
hear is on the merging threat of Islamist foreign fighters
going to Syria and Iraq and the specific threat that they pose
when they seek to return to Europe, and how does that impact us
in the United States as well.
In 2011, the Syrian people rose up in revolt against their
government. Over 3 years later, Syria has been torn apart by
ethnic and sectarian strife. It is in ab open civil war.
Radical Islamic terrorist groups, including al-Qaeda, have
taken full advantage of this chaos. Possibly as many as 15,000
foreign fighters have entered Syria from around, well, perhaps
80 different countries to take up arms in this fight.
It appears that several thousand of those fighters came
from Europe and hold passports from European countries. Many of
these Islamists have joined ISIL, a heinous, brutal anti-
Western terrorist organization that has grown to contest vast
territory in both Syria and Iraq.
In ISIL, we face a terrorist group which controls land and
has proven its abilities on the battlefield. It is also one of
the richest terrorist groups in the world. They profit from
criminal activity, extortion, black market oil sales, and of
course the easy capture, or you might say gift, of vast amounts
of American military equipment that we had generously provided
Iraq. This is a mega-million-dollar operation on their part.
It is a nightmare to think about the kind of attacks ISIL
could pull off, given their financial resources, their
geographic safe havens and their access to so many recruits
with Western passports.
The filmed beheading of James Foley and Steven Sotloff and
David Haines tells us all that we need to know, that is all we
need to know about the intentions of this terrorist
organization. The terrorist holding the knife, and let us
remember, the terrorist holding the knife in the beheading
videos spoke with a British accent. That indicates the
magnitude of the security challenge that we face.
We have already begun to see the threat of terrorism
emanating from Syria. This week, a Yemen-born naturalized
American citizen was indicted for attempting to provide support
to ISIL in New York state. Dozens of people have also been
arrested just this week in Australia and in the Balkans in
connection to plots to aid ISIL and conduct terrorist attacks
in the West.
And the words ``terrorist attacks in the West'' perhaps is
a little too soft. Maybe we should understand what a terrorist
attack in the West means are the bodies, the brutal tearing
apart of the bodies of women and children, civilians, people
who just want to live their lives. And this group of other
human beings, for whatever reason they have, will at random
murder our fellow citizens and people who live in Western
countries. Perhaps, as we will hear from our witnesses, I would
like to hear about their--what motive we are talking about here
perhaps to terrorize Western civilization out of a huge section
of the globe.
In May, a Muslim terrorist who held French citizenship and
who had traveled to Syria, shot and killed four people in a
Jewish museum in Brussels. Those victims, they were honest,
ordinary people, could be related to any of us.
And during our discussions this morning, I hope to learn
from the panelists about why ISIL's bloody message of hate and
violence attracts far too many of European Muslims; what are
the viable options for European countries in this situation to
prevent terrorists from returning home; what attracts them to
it, and how can we prevent them from coming back to their home
countries and conducting this type of murder, horrible murder
upon innocent people in our societies; how can we better work
with our European allies; and, let me add, how can we better
work with the European allies and Russia to defend ourselves
against this shared threat?
Finally, let me just note that I think we would do well to
learn from Europe's immigration experience as we talk about
reforming our own laws. This problem is not only
counterterrorism, but it is a question of how different people
can fit together in a free society.
We have a lot to cover, so with that, I turn to my--the
ranking member has already been heard from. Other members
perhaps have short opening statements, and I yield to Judge
Poe.
Mr. Poe. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
ISIS, as you have said, is a threat that we need to
understand has to be reckoned with. I fear the West, especially
the United States, underestimates them. They have, unlike many
of the terrorist groups, set up governance in northern Iraq and
in Syria. They tax the people, they govern the community, they
have oil, they have money, and they are determined fighters.
And, as you said, they have a lot of American equipment
already.
The United States for years has supplied equipment to the
Iraqis and tried to train them. In the first encounter with
ISIS in northern Iraq, they cut and ran. A lot of Americans
believe they just threw down some small arms and some MRE's and
some ammo and took off running. Not so. Here is an M1 tank that
the Iraqi Government was given by the United States. Confronted
with ISIS, they bailed, and now ISIS controls an M1 tank
belonging to the American citizens.
Here is the parade that they celebrated after capturing
several Humvees abandoned by the Iraqis that we subsidized. And
at the bottom, what to me is the most alarming: These are four
Humvees, American-made, given to the Iraqi troops to fight
ISIS, and after they cut and ran, they were abandoned, and now
this is an ISIS truck headed to Syria to fight in Syria. I
think we underestimate who these people are.
Foreign fighters for ISIS are already coming back to Europe
and launching attacks. Monday, Germany held its first trial of
an alleged German-born Jihadist. In May 2014, a terrorist
affiliated with ISIS killed three people at the Jewish museum
in Brussels. British Prime Minister David Cameron said last
week that there have already been at least six planned
terrorist attacks in the EU countries from ISIS. And the threat
won't stay in Europe, as the Australians have already found out
this week. Because they come from visa-waiver countries, many
of these individuals are able to travel to the U.S.
We have to work with European friends to identify and track
foreign Jihadists fighting in Syria. We also must convince them
that this is a group to be reckoned with. They are a threat to
all civilized peoples. They cannot be allowed to return home to
continue their Jihad.
I have introduced H.R. 5406, the Foreign Terrorist
Organization Passport Revocation Act, exactly for this purpose.
This bill calls for the State Department to revoke U.S.
passports for individuals who are fighters for any foreign
terrorist organization or helping to support an FTO in any way.
American citizens that fight for ISIS are traitors, they
are Benedict Arnolds, and they are not welcome back in the U.S.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Thank you very much.
Mr. Yoho.
Mr. Yoho. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Witnesses, I appreciate you being here. This is a very
important topic.
In lieu of what is going on in our world today, as Mr.
Keating spoke, radical terrorist groups are growing around the
world. It would be wise and prudent for us to address this
before it gets any worse. And we have heard reports, suspected
reports in this country of already things happening. You have
got to worry about--or think about the Boston Marathon bombing.
Is this the beginning of a way that is going to happen here
that is unacceptable?
In lieu of what is going on in the Middle East, we talk
about ISIL coming over here, and they even said they were
coming to America, we have to pay attention and not allow that
to happen. And it is--as I think they have to be dealt with
over in a foreign country, we need to do more here to secure
our borders. And I would like to hear ideas from you on
securing our borders; not just the southwest border, but all of
our borders, in addition to the passports that--people that
have Western passports that travel over there.
In fact, we introduced a bill this week, it is called the
Terrorist Nationality Act, that it sounds like other members
have done too, that will strip citizenship away from people
that have known affiliation with foreign terrorist groups or
have picked up arms against American citizens or American
military.
So I look forward to hearing suggestions on what we can do
to make our country safer.
And with that, I yield back. Thank you.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Well, thank you all very much.
We have two great witnesses with us, and we plan to have a
great discussion with you after your testimony.
First, Thomas Joscelyn, a senior fellow with the Foundation
for Defense of Democracies, and senior editor, of course, of
The Long War Journal, a publication which tracks
counterterrorism issues. He is a widely respected expert on al-
Qaeda and its related groups around the world. He writes and
contributes often to The Weekly Standard and makes guest
appearances on television and radio. He has appeared before
other Foreign Affairs, House Foreign Affairs Committee
hearings, and we are pleased to welcome him to this
subcommittee.
Also we have with us Ms. Farah Pandith, is the Fisher
Family fellow at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard
University. She was appointed in 2009 as the first ever Special
Representative to the Muslim Communities by Secretary of State
Clinton. She worked in that capacity to engage and communicate
with Muslim communities around the world on behalf of the
United States Government. For her achievement, she was awarded
the Secretary's Distinguished Honor Award in 2013.
Prior to her appointment, she held senior positions in the
U.S. Agency for International Development and the State
Department's Bureau of European and Euro-Asian Affairs. She has
also worked as the Director of Middle East Regional Initiatives
for the National Security Council. She has earned a master's
degree from Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts
University.
And I appreciate the witnesses. And I guess first we will
hear from--it is a toss-up here. How about--how about if we go
with Ms. Farah Pandith.
STATEMENT OF MS. FARAH PANDITH, FISHER FAMILY FELLOW, BELFER
CENTER, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT (FORMER U.S.
SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE TO MUSLIM COMMUNITIES)
Ms. Pandith. Good morning. And thank you to the house--that
would help.
Good morning, and thank you to the House Foreign Affairs
Committee for inviting me here today.
Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee on Europe,
Eurasia, and Emerging Threats, it is my honor and pleasure to
be here today for this important and timely hearing.
My name is Farah Pandith. I am a senior fellow at the
Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. My opinions
and my written and verbal testimony are my own.
I have come before you today to talk about the threat of
foreign fighters returning to Europe and what the United States
could and should be doing about it. As a political appointee in
the George W. Bush and Obama administrations, I spent a decade
working on the impact of extremist ideologies on Muslim
millenials, especially in Europe. I saw firsthand the complex
processes by which extremists prey on young Muslims, tear apart
local communities, and threaten stability worldwide.
In January of this year, I left government with the
intention of writing a book that would explain what I had seen
and what we can do to win the ideological war against
extremism. I firmly believe we can win.
I am a proud American, and I know firsthand of the many men
and women who serve our Nation with passion, commitment and
steadfast determination to keep us safe from harm. I have been
honored to work with and for them.
I also know the respect our Presidents have for all faiths.
Both administrations under which I have served have openly
stated that the heinous acts of terrorists do not, by any
means, represent the religion of Islam.
My interest and involvement in the issue of extremism isn't
typical. Out of college, I served in the George H.W. Bush
administration, but left to attend the Fletcher School of Law
in Diplomacy. It was there in 1993 that I focused on national
security and was awarded a grant to travel to Kashmir during a
very delicate and unstable time. I conducted interviews with
militants, and began to understand the power of ideologies and
the impact they were having on an older culture, heritage and a
way of life.
I stayed in Massachusetts after graduate school, but felt
called to serve after the events of 9/11. Al-Qaeda was trying
to define my country and my religion. I could not sit back and
watch.
For more than a decade since, I have worked closely on the
issue of extremist ideologies impacts on Muslims. During my
tenure at the National Security Council, the Danish cartoon
crisis broke out. And in 2006, we found ourselves unprepared
for the reality that something that happened in Copenhagen
could have an effect on a life in Kabul.
Then Assistant Secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs,
Dan Fried, asked me to serve as his senior advisor, to focus
solely on Muslims in Europe and to help recalibrate the way our
Embassies engaged with Muslims. Our country had never had that
position, and Ambassador Fried understood how vital it was that
we reach out more boldly to Muslims in Europe, gain an
understanding of their diversity of experiences, and analyze
the impact on them of extremist narratives.
For 2 years I traveled across Europe and met with Muslim
communities, getting to know what was happening within
communities and between generations and ethnicities. To push
back against extremist narratives, we seeded several path-
breaking initiatives that directly addressed the idealogical
threat posed by extremists. These initiatives identified
credible Muslim voices within Muslim communities, and by
partnering with and supporting them, helped them to wield
greater influence among young Muslims susceptible to extremist
messages. Several of these CVE initiatives, such as Sisters
Against Violent Extremism, continue to operate today
independent of the U.S. Government.
The most vital fact I gleaned from thousands of
conversations I had across Europe was that Muslim youths were
having an identity crisis and that they were searching for
answers. Extremist narratives were filling the intellectual
vacuum created by this crisis, and governments were ill-
equipped to deal with it.
A similar dynamic continues to unfold before our eyes with
evermore violent and gruesome implications.
In order for ISIL or other extremist organizations to
persuade someone to join its army, these groups must be able to
appeal emotionally to a young person eager for meaning and a
sense of belonging.
This morning I want to make five points related to foreign
fighters, their threat to us, and what America could be doing
to fight back.
First, both men and women are at risk today. Just yesterday
we saw in a new report that an Austrian teenage girl, who
joined ISIL, is now pregnant. The presence of female recruits
represents a new and important change in the extremist
landscape.
Second, policymakers should be concerned not just with
individuals who leave their home countries to fight in the
Middle East or elsewhere, but with the ideology that continues
to spread among those left behind.
Third, European civilization does not construct national
identities in a uniform way. As a result, we must be local and
nuanced in our policy approaches.
Fourth, we can win the ideological war with extremism by
investing significantly in soft power.
Fifth, free borders in Europe don't represent the whole
story. Free ideas bounce around the world online, keeping the
cycle of hatred turning, but free ideas could also potentially
feed a more virtuous cycle of peace and respect for others.
With coordinated and comprehensive attention, we can
dramatically change the patterns of discourse within Muslim
communities, with positive consequences for Europe, the United
States, and our allies.
Extremist ideology is the greatest threat of our time. The
generation at risk is massive, global, and digitally connected.
It is time we address the ideological threat head on and stop
the recruitment from happening. This is winnable if we behave
smartly, proactively, and creatively.
Thank you again for the opportunity to speak with you.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Well, thank you very much. That was very
thoughtful testimony, and I am sure we will have some serious
questions for you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Pandith follows:]
----------
Mr. Rohrbacher. And now to our next witness, and senior
fellow with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. You may
proceed, Dr.--or Mr. Thompson.
Mr. Joscelyn. Thank you, Congressman.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Dr., but it is Mr.
Mr. Joscelyn. No. It is Mr. all the way.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Okay. Mr. Joscelyn.
STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS JOSCELYN, SENIOR FELLOW, FOUNDATION FOR
DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES
Mr. Joscelyn. Well, thank you for having me here today to
talk about this issue.
We have been tracking the issue of foreign fighters going
to Syria at The Long War Journal for a while now, a few years
going back to really late 2011, early 2012. And it is really
stunning to me that today we have more foreign fighters in
Syria than were in Afghanistan during the height of the Jihad
against the Soviets. That is really an incredible metric if you
think about it. And this creates all sorts of security
challenges, of course.
I have a little bit of a nuanced view of this. We are right
to be concerned about the threat the foreign fighters pose to
the West and the possibility of using terrorist attacks. Most
of them, however, will not come back our way. Most of them are
going to remain invested in the fight in Iraq and Syria. Most
of--some of them will even become disillusioned. And for
those--some that become disillusioned, they can become partners
for us in sort of counter-messaging to basically dispel the
mythology that sort of the Jihad in Syria is some grandiose
sort of quest, that they can actually become sort of our
messengers in Europe and the West to tell people that going off
to fight in Syria is not as great as the recruiters make it to
sound out to be.
However, I want to say this. As the number of foreign
fighters increases, there are two main problems: One, you can
have sort of these acts of violence like the shooting at the
museum in Brussels that you mentioned, Congressman, where we
don't know if he was under direction of any senior terrorists
or not, but it is still a serious threat that you can have
somebody who is really known as a psychopath can basically go
back to Europe.
And to your point, Congressman Yoho, about identifying
these individuals who are traveling around, he traveled all
throughout Europe through multiple Nations before that attack,
and he had been identified by French intelligence in 2013 as a
risk, and was still able to move around quite freely up until
that day of terror. So we have that sort of threat.
The second level full threat is a more nuanced one that I
think we really have to think about, which is if you think back
to pre-9/11 Afghanistan, between 10 and 20,000 recruits went
through al Qaeda's training camps in Afghanistan. What al-Qaeda
was doing was they were trying to identify sort of the most
talented and most dedicated recruits to re-purpose for attacks
in the West, and that is what ultimately gave us, for example,
the Hamburg cell that traveled from Germany to Afghanistan.
These are individuals who are identified as being totally
committed, skilled and somebody they could train up to
basically fly planes into buildings.
What is interesting about that is those recruits who
traveled to Afghanistan were originally wanted to actually go
wage Jihad in Chechnya against the Russian Government. They
weren't actually recruited originally to go fly planes into
buildings in the U.S. This is how a Jihad in Afghanistan or
elsewhere could be re-purposed very quickly and come back at
us.
And so as the talent level of foreign fighters increases,
what happens is that the skilled professional terrorists, the
guys who I am really worried about, are basically sifting
through the pile to figure out who is really the best recruits
for them to use in operations against us.
U.S. officials say that the Islamic State doesn't pose an
imminent threat to the U.S. homeland in terms of catastrophic
attacks. The consensus seems to be that they don't--are not
able to plan catastrophic terrorist attacks in the West at the
moment. I would pause on that. History tells us that these
threats evolve very, very quickly. Al-Qaeda in the Iranian
peninsula went from a regional national insurgency to a direct
threat against the U.S. homeland within a matter of basically 9
months, 9, 10 months, something along those lines.
There is a lot we don't know. We didn't know that Khalid
Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of 9/11, was in fact an al-
Qaeda operative until several months after 9/11. Okay?
So what worries me is what we don't about this group and
its capabilities. We know the intent is there. And just because
we don't think they have the ability to attack us in a
catastrophic way right now in the West doesn't mean that they
won't be able to in the near future.
But finally, I will say this: Everybody is rightfully
concerned about ISIL, as we call it here right now, and the
threat. It is sort of amazing to watch a rampage across two
nation states. But, again, I have a slightly different view. I
think the greater near term threat to us is actually--are
actually the al-Qaeda operatives in Syria right now, who U.S.
intelligence officials, European intelligence officials are
very worried about planning catastrophic attacks against us.
These are guys who are embedded within Jabhat al-Nusra,
which is an initial branch of al-Qaeda, and is actually a rival
of ISIL inside Syria today. This is how complicated this is.
The threat streams are coming from multiple directions. It is
not just ISIL.
Within Jabhat al-Nusra, you have skilled operatives who are
dispatched by Ayman al-Zawahir, the head of al-Qaeda, to Syria.
And what they are doing is very carefully sorting through the
pile of European and Western recruits to figure out who they
can use, like the Hamburg cell for 9/11, something along those
lines. That is a bigger near term concern, I think, in terms of
big sort of spectacular terrorist attacks.
A big problem there too is that Jabhat al-Nusra is deeply
embedded within the Syrian insurgency against the Assad regime.
They are very popular amongst other rebels. They are not--this
is--I know--I realize that yesterday I think there was big
vote, of course, on funding and training the rebels. I--my one
caveat there is we have got to be worried about how these
rebels interact with Jabhat al-Nusra. They are not ISIL. Okay.
They are opposed to ISIL, they are opposed to Assad, and yet
they are al-Qaeda. Right?
So this is a very complicated game that we have to play
here and be worried about, and I don't hear a lot of discussion
about that. And I am worried about that. That doesn't mean I
necessarily oppose what the administration wants to do; it is
just my own sort of--you know, we have to be very careful about
how we do it. And we can get into that a little bit more during
questioning, maybe.
Finally, back to your point, Congressman Yoho, about these
recruits traveling. There was a suicide bomber for Jabhat al-
Nusra earlier this year, who blew himself up, an American,
known as Abu Salha, and he actually--this is, again, one of
those things that worries me. He managed to travel to and from
his home in Florida from the Jihad in Syria as he was basically
being indoctrinated and recruited to blow himself up in Syria.
Now, Jabhat al-Nusra decided not to try and use him in an
attack against the West, but you can bet that they learned from
how he got in and out of the country what they can try and--and
try and use that information in the future. And that is really,
I think, how we should be thinking about that.
Thank you.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Well, thank both of you for providing us
that testimony.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Joscelyn follows:]
----------
Mr. Rohrbacher. Again, I will yield to my ranking member,
and I will just top things off after we give Congressman Yoho a
chance to ask some questions as well.
Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you both for your testimony. I think we are seeing in
a continuum, from the inception of ideology to how they are
practically carrying many of these things out. That was very
clear in both of your testimonies, and I appreciate that.
I want to focus in for a moment on a shared commitment I
have with the administration to strengthen women's rights
globally and to empower women and their families in
transitional societies, such as Iraq. And part of that is
stemming at this ideological flourishing that is occurring
within families. And Chairman Royce and myself earlier this
year held a hearing on the importance of women in battling
violent extremism, and the name that you mentioned, Farah, in
terms of Sisters Against Violent Extremism came up. I know you
touched on it in your testimony.
But women are the first educators of their children. They
are in a unique position to spot signs of radicalization and
extremism, and they are also in a very pivotal position to try
and deal with that. And I think we have to empower women to
recognize this, to recognize the signs, and give them tools as
to how to deal with that.
But could you comment on the Sisters Against Violent
Extremism and the overall effort to try and use women more
effectively and mothers more effectively in this fight against
extremism, and to really, you know, quash this ideological
growth?
Ms. Pandith. Thank you very much for that question.
You know, I talked a lot about the ideology and where it
stems, and I don't need to explain to all of you how important
family is. And as a young person grows up, this question of
identity, the confusion, asking questions, these millenials are
experiencing something that no other generation has
experienced, and in the context of a post-9/11 world, that is
why I said the numbers are massive. You know, one-fourth of the
planet is Muslim; you know, 1.6 billion people. Sixty-two
percent of that number is under the age of 30. These are
millenials that have grown up looking at their life in a very
different way. Everybody has an identity crisis, okay, it
doesn't matter what religion you are, but something specific is
happening to a generation that has grown up in the context of
9/11, asking questions that their parents and their
grandparents didn't ask.
And as they are dealing with this sense of identity and
belonging, they are looking for answers, and the answers that
they always go to are not traditional, necessarily. It isn't
the cleric, necessarily. It is not the elder person in the
village town or city. It is Sheikh Google who answers a lot of
these questions for them.
The reason why women are important is for two reasons: One,
as you said, the mothers are the child's first teachers, they
are seeing things with their children, they are beginning to
see changes happening. If you are looking at some of the
radicalization processes and you go back and you talk to the
parents, they have seen signs, mothers talk about things that
they have seen. They influence the ecosystem within the home.
Very, very important.
But there is another piece of this, and that other piece of
this is how you use women to mobilize their perspective
globally and connect those things. That is where we began to
look at models that would work on a grassroots level that are
very local and are inspired by regular people. It wasn't
Government coming in and saying something.
In the Bush administration, we looked at the model of
Mothers Against Drunk Driving here in America and said, how did
that get off the ground? How do we begin--how do we build this?
And we began to think about what would happen if we began to
build a network of like-minded women who could push back
against extremist ideologies, and seeded Sisters Against
Violent Extremism with an incredible woman named Edith Schlafer
in Vienna, and gave her a small seed grant to get this off the
ground and asked her to move it forward.
Right now, you know, all these years later, it is an
independent organization that has chapters all over the world,
but she has mobilized and built a network of women to push
back, to talk about things, to put the lessons that she has
learned on the table.
That is one piece of the complexity with women and
extremism. Okay. The other is what is happening to Muslim
women. And that is the other piece, if you wouldn't mind, I
will just spend a moment on.
Mr. Keating. No. I think that was my second question, so
you are heading the right direction.
Ms. Pandith. Okay. So in my role as Special Representative
to Muslim Communities, one of the most impressive points to me
was that what I thought had happened in Europe, this identity
crisis, was not just minorities living in Europe, but, oh, my
goodness, that was happening to Muslims in Muslim-majority
countries as well.
So this idea that identity crisis from Malaysia to, you
know, Argentina with Muslims matters to us, and it matters very
boldly, because as people are asking these questions, as I
said, the vacuum is being filled by narratives that come from
extremists. That doesn't leave women out of the picture. These
are digital natives, they are connected. With the swish of
their finger on their, you know, smart phone, they are getting
ideas that are bouncing around the world.
And what did I see as special representative? I began to
see a change in the way this generation of young Muslim women
began to think about themselves, think about their role. And so
you are seeing a two-pronged thing: One, you can absolutely use
women, and you should, to stop the stem of radicalization, to
understand what is happening in the home.
The other point is we are beginning to see women getting
radicalized in a----
Mr. Keating. Oh, that was my question.
Ms. Pandith [continuing]. In a very big way, right. So----
Mr. Keating. If I could for a second. There is an irony
there, because in many of these groups, the place of women is
anything but high in the level of authority and power; however,
you are seeing ISIL and some of these other groups use women,
not necessarily as soldiers, but you are seeing them used in
the social networking and communication and in shaping people's
ideology in countries where some of the people--the average age
of some of these countries, the average age is 25 years old.
So that if you could just continue, I think that was the
second point I wanted to make.
Ms. Pandith. Well, of course. You are correct. And that age
group is really pivotal, because they are beginning to be
mothers themselves, they are raising their children a
particular way, they are thinking about their role in society
in a particular way. Either you are going to be open and engage
with the outside or you are going to retreat and come back in.
So you are looking at data points across the board.
You are also looking at what they are looking at online,
what they are listening to, how they see themselves. It doesn't
take a lot of imagination. This summer, ISIS has an all
women's, you know, organization. We have AQ doing the same
thing. If we use our imagination and think of what else comes
down the pike, it is very scary.
Mr. Keating. Yeah. I will just bring one point home, Mr.
Chairman, and that is the point that even in the Boston
Marathon bombing----
Ms. Pandith. Yes.
Mr. Keating [continuing]. It is very clear the effect that
Tamerlan Tsarnaev mother had on his radicalization. I won't
comment on, since there is a trial pending, on the, you know,
her other son, but I will say clearly with Tamerlan, that has
been proved.
So Mr. Chairman--thank you for your comments. Mr. Chairman,
I yield back.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Thank you. Yes. And thank you for your
thoughtful questioning.
And Mr. Yoho.
Mr. Yoho. Again, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank you both
for your testimony.
And, Mr. Joscelyn, I think you are right on. I mean, we are
seeing this happening now. And you were saying most of the
radicals don't come back. We don't need most of them. If you go
back to 9/11, we all know there were only 19 people, and they
had, I think, it was $500,000, but they were able to change
real quickly.
And now we have these organizations that have become more
coalesced. And what I have seen, and correct me if I am wrong,
is an escalation of the amount of radical groups and I see them
coalescing into a stronger force, well organized, well funded.
With ISIL supposedly getting $3.5 million a day in the sale of
oil on the black market, we are just going to see more and more
of that.
And in this meeting room here, it was about 6 months ago,
we had a group that was representing Somalians that had come to
the United States. Minnesota is where they are from. And I
asked them why they came to Minnesota. I was born in Minnesota
and I was glad--it is a great state, but it is a little bit too
cold for me, so why would the Somalians choose Minnesota, and
they said it was for education and jobs. But yet when I asked
them what percentage of the male population were employed, he
said it was very low, it was high unemployment in that group.
What percentage graduated from high school? He said it is very
low. And then I went into, you know, the questions of how many
are practicing Muslim. I assume the majority. And he said yes.
Then we moved on to do they follow Sharia law or U.S.
constitutional. He says, we go with constitutional law, but,
yes, Sharia. And then I asked him if they were assimilating and
becoming Americans and adapting our ideologies. And he says, we
are having a real hard time with that.
That scares me, because we are growing that type of thing
that we are seeing now, and as you brought out, the person from
Florida and the person before Minnesota going over and becoming
radical jihads.
We have to have a way--and this goes back to a bigger
problem, you know, with our immigration policy. I think we all
want responsible immigration, but we have to do it right to
bring the people over here.
But going back to the ISIL threat, removing the passports
from these people, one of the questions I had is if we remove
these passports--I lost my train of thought here. How can the
U.S. help our European allies to defend themselves from the
threat of these returning foreign fighters? You know, they got
a Western passport, they can go over there and they can come
back if they are a U.S. citizen. And I think Britain has
already started to take these passports away. Is that right?
Mr. Joscelyn. That sounds right. Yeah, they have--Britain
has a number of security restrictions they can put in place.
Mr. Yoho. Okay. With that, I am going to yield back.
And, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your time.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Well, thank you very much.
A couple of questions. Are these the uneducated--overseas,
are these the uneducated people of lower classes who can't get
jobs or are they like Bin Laden from the upper crust, who are
actually very well educated and not necessarily just the
product of Madrassa schools, but instead, people who know the
choices and have made the choice that their religion is better
than everybody else's?
Mr. Joscelyn. It cuts across socioeconomic boundaries. It
is not easy to typify sort of your recruit in that regard. You
know, when you look at, again, the common example are the
suicide hijack pilots on 9/11: Highly educated, come from good
families. You know, Bin Laden came from a good family, Ayman
al-Zawahiri came from a very influential family. You find this
over and over and over again.
It is really the strength of the idealogy that binds them
together, and not necessarily any socioeconomic factors.
Mr. Rohrbacher. Uh-huh. Let me note it before we move on,
and that is that it is vitally important that we do not try to
lump all Muslims into the category of terrorists, otherwise, we
are doing exactly what the terrorists want us to do, which is
create a dichotomy between the Western world and all Muslims,
and thus expand dramatically their strength and potential
danger.
So we should make sure we reach out--and again--and this
is--Ms. Pandith, how--you were talking about the Muslim
community and perhaps an identity crisis going on with
different people. Do you think that there is a real threat that
we could have an overreach here and push Muslims into the
radical terrorism camp, and do you see that happening at all?
Ms. Pandith. So I think one of the things that is important
for us to understand is what we have learned over 13 years of
trying to look at the radicalization process, what is happening
in communities, what Government can do, what communities can
do, how the strengths and weaknesses have played out over the
course of 13 years. And you asked a really important question
about, you know, who are these people, you know, how well
educated are they, where do they come from.
One of the things I was talking about in my testimony is
the nuanced approach to understand the distinction within--
certainly here today we are talking about Europe. Which
generation are we talking about? Which ethnicities are we
talking about? How are they looking at the particular issues
that they are dealing with?
The success is going to coming from the community level.
And as you look at the responses across Europe and how
governments are looking at the threat, there is a wide range of
reactions to this growing problem, but when you are looking
forward, when you are looking at the distant opportunities for
recruitment, we have to start with the immediate family, we
have to start with the communities, and we have to make sure
that the communities are getting information about what we have
learned about how recruitment happens, that we are looking very
deep at all of these issues, and not sort of separating the
immediate from, you know, just not having a threat now.
Mr. Rohrbacher. You know, I will have to tell you, the
world has faced many different challenges from murderous groups
over the history of the plant. And Muslim extremism, or I
should say, you know, and perhaps, I know a lot of Muslims
don't like the--even the word ``Islam'' associated with
radicalism, but a lot of us are having trouble with that.
We want to be respectful of their faith, but we can't help
but notice that the people who are murdering people are doing
so in the name of their faith, and it really pulls on a lot of
us, because we know, I mean, I know many Muslim people who are
wonderful people and would never dream of that, and I don't
think their faith is doing anything but adding to their life,
but obviously those people whom we are fearing now identity the
Islamic faith, Muslim faith as the motivator that is motivating
them to do that. They are announcing that to the world.
And I am not sure, and, again, after listening to your
testimony, you know, 50 years ago and 60 years ago, the world
was threatened by these Nazis, who had no Muslim connection at
all, who were, basically came from a Christian country, and
Japanese militarism, which had its own--you could identify the
Shinto religion that they were part of that glorified their
ancestors, especially, who were very military successful
ancestors, you could see that direct line, but I don't--to be
fair about it, I don't think that our--that the greatest
generation that we call in the United States spent time trying
to psychoanalyze why people became Nazis or why people of Japan
backed up their militarist wing; we simply went out and had to
defeat them.
And I think maybe that is where we are at now, that we want
to understand, as you were saying, these Muslim people who are
involved with the radical terrorist elements, respecting the
fact that most Muslims are not that way, but the job now is not
some long-term analyst, but instead, to try to defeat this evil
force that would murder our families.
And maybe you both would have a comment on that?
Ms. Pandith. Mr. Chairman, may I just respond to what you
were saying?
Mr. Rohrbacher. Sure.
Ms. Pandith. In terms of the threats that our world have
faced, you very nicely pointed out two ideological examples,
but our country took it seriously, the ideological piece. We
invested everything, both hard power and soft power, to defeat
that threat. We have not done that now, sir.
Mr. Rohrbacher. You know what? I don't think that we
actually put any effort into denouncification until after we
defeated them and disarmed them, and that is when we--
denouncification had an impact, but it wasn't until then.
And right now, I think we are in the battle mode, of this
fight, you know. And maybe afterwards, we can--and that is why
we have to support the President in his efforts as best we can,
and other--and unite as a country against this, because I
happen to believe it will--and I think we all agree, that, yes,
our European friends are now going to bear the brunt, but we
are just the very next step away from there, and our children,
our families are going to be at stake.
Mr. Joscelyn?
Mr. Joscelyn. Well, I don't think it is necessarily an
either/or. I agree with you that we need to defeat them
militarily. I think the Jihadist ideology needs military
successes in order to recruit, and so they need to be defeated
militarily, otherwise they are going to deep saying that they
are the strong horse people should side with.
But just take a step back for a second. And what is going
on here is, I find, as somebody who has studied Bin Laden and
Zawahiri very carefully, we still don't ever really understand
what they were all about. You know, 9/11, these terrorist
attacks, they weren't an end in and of themselves; they were
trying to seek to spark a political revolution within the
Muslim world. And within the Jihadi camp, Bin Laden is known as
the reviving sheikh. And what does that mean? It means that,
according to al-Qaeda's theory of the world, Muslims had--were
no longer waging Jihad like they were supposed to, and he
needed to revive the Jihadi spirit across the Muslim world.
Now, this becomes--that--so it becomes very much an
ideological battle, because if you look at what they were
trying to do, and, in fact, Bin Laden was a great student of
the Chinese game Go, where you can convert pieces on the board
to your side. Once you surround them and they become your
pieces, and then you can re-deploy them. That is a political
revolutionary thinking about how to convert Muslims to his
cause, which is what al-Qaeda's always been about.
And they have had many setbacks in that regard, mainly
because most of their violence has actually killed their fellow
Muslims. And this is a strategic liability, not just for al-
Qaeda, but also for ISIL. ISIL is you know, we are talking
about the threats to the West right now, and we should be, but
ISIL, if you look at their body count, right now it is a lot of
Muslims throughout Syria and Iraq and only a few Westerners,
you know.
And I have seen, you know, you talk about the beheading
videos of James Foley and Steven Sotloff, which really
galvanized us into action, I can tell you I watched probably
hundreds of beheadings of Syrians and Iraqis before that, you
know, Muslims on the ground who are our allies in this fight
who were getting killed, you know. And so that is where the
ideological battle is----
Mr. Rohrbacher. Sure.
Mr. Joscelyn [continuing]. Because in the military battle,
you are talking about, Congressman, we need to figure out who
our allies are. And we have a lot of Muslim allies. We have to
identify them as such in this greater contest.
Mr. Rohrbacher. I think that is a--you have made a really--
well, both of you have made really good points today. And the
idea about keeping in mind that there have been more Muslims
murdered by these--by the people that threaten us today than
have Anglos or European background people, although obviously
we are concerned about the safety of our families. And that is
our job here, is to make--ultimately to be concerned about our
families.
And hopefully our fellow Americans of the--and I would hope
that we challenge, all of us challenge them to step up and back
them up in their communities when they take a stand against
these type of extremists that would murder their fellow human
beings.
I was shocked when several organizations that I read some
fliers from them suggesting--from several Muslim organizations
in the United States were suggesting that their people not
cooperate with the FBI. I don't know----
Mr. Keating, I don't know if you have seen that or not, but
I certainly saw a couple of handouts indicating--I won't name
the group, because maybe it is unfair to that group. Maybe that
only reflected one or two people in the group who took
advantage of a situation.
But we challenge our fellow Americans who are Muslims to
join us and help us win this battle, because, as we are
learning today, it is a--what is happening in Syria is going to
be a wave that hits us here in the United States and is already
beginning to be felt in Europe.
Let me ask Mr. Joscelyn about the shared threat that we
have with our European allies, but do we not also share this
threat, and I mentioned this in my opening statement. Do we not
share this threat with Russia and should we not cooperate with
Russia? Mr. Keating and I actually went to Moscow and met with
their intelligence operatives and got a briefing on those
people who were involved with the bombing in Boston, the Boston
Marathon.
Mr. Joscelyn. Well, I will preface this by saying there are
a lot of ways in which our interests in Russia obviously are
not consistent. We have divergent interests across the board I
would say.
But, you know, to your point when you study who is in Syria
right now, the Chechen Jihadists in Syria right now, these are
not freedom fighters, you know. They are deeply opposed to the
Russian Government. They are also hostile to us. They are very
much on either ISIL's side or al-Qaeda's side in Syria. In
fact, you know, this hearing is happening because of ISIL's
military gains on the ground in Iraq and Syria.
One of the top military commanders in Syria is a Chechen
for ISIL. His name is, he is known as Abu Omar al-Shishani. And
he is actually the one who really gave them their military
victories in eastern Syria, which has opened up the pathway
into Iraq. And so the Chechen Jihadists are really the most
committed, I would say, skilled and oftentimes tacticians in
this fight. They are a threat to Russia, they are a threat to
our interests, so in that sense there is a common threat there.
You know, one of the interesting things we were talking
about the radicalization of women, well one of the biggest
examples of that is in fact the Chechen black widows who have
committed terrorist attacks in Moscow. These are the widows of
fallen Jihadists in the Chechen and groups in Dagestan and
Chechnya who go on to become suicide bombers in operations
there. So there is a common bond at least in that one narrow
sense in terms of the threat of the Chechen Jihadists.
Mr. Rohrabacher. I notice our other witness shaking her
head. Would you like to add to that?
Ms. Pandith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I also wanted to say, I mean, you made a very good point
about having everybody join to push back against the ideology
of extremists, and what you have seen in the last 13 years
since 9/11 is the increase of voices that are pushing back that
are coming from Muslim communities, and you are seeing new
networks, you are seeing networks of former extremists that
have been built to push back, but that needs to be ramped up.
Those are the voices that matter, those are the credible
voices, and to your point about Russia and the black widow
example that my colleague has just raised, that is, to me that
is a great illustration of, you know, the worst case scenario,
but what we ought to be looking at is not when it is the tip of
the iceberg; what is actually percolating? What is actually
happening to get them there? And that is where we have to stem
and cut the radicalization process. If you don't have recruits,
you will not have armies.
Mr. Rohrabacher. To be fair, I cannot understand why a
religious extremist group that would, it appears on its surface
to be so anti the freedom of women and so oppressive in terms
of saying that women have to wear a garment and hide themselves
and look out a little slit or can't drive cars or can't have
regular jobs, I do not, I can't comprehend how there would be
women joining the ranks of people like who held those beliefs
in order to try to create a society based on those standards.
Ms. Pandith. Mr. Chairman, there are lots of reasons why
the women are joining the fight, and I know that there is not
just one or two that are prominent. There are many, some of
which include wanting, some of the married people who are there
and want to be part of that ecosystem.
Some want to raise children so that they are creating the
next army. Some do it because they are ideological, they are so
invested in the ideology of building a so-called caliphate that
they want to be part of this and they want to live there. I
mean, there are many reasons why, but their sense of belonging
in terms of where they are.
If you look at the two teenage girls from Austria who ran
away from home to join Chechen Jihadis, I mean, this is an
illustration of the kinds of things that are happening. How is
it possible that two young girls who grew up in an open and
free environment chose to do that? How did they get
radicalized? What were they looking at online that moved them
in that direction?
And sir, the last point I would say is the other role that
women are playing is that enticement role. So if you have
somebody on the other end of a You-Tube video or a chat room
that is eager to bring women on board and you are another woman
and her voice calling them in, it is very persuasive.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Well, we obviously face a major challenge
and not just with Democrats and Republicans uniting the face of
foreign challenge, but also people of various religious faiths,
including the Muslim community and the Christian community and
Jewish community here in the United States and elsewhere.
We need to have some unity behind this to help save mankind
from the senseless murder of innocent people, and when we talk
about people being terrorists, their purpose is to terrorize,
and that means to win the battle through terrorizing a
population, to letting them achieve their goal through that
terror.
We Americans are not going to be terrorized into giving up
our rights and our freedom and our ability to be part of the
world, and I don't--I think we need to stand with our European
allies in this and especially our allies in the Muslim world
who are being killed and murdered at a much higher rate.
Closing statement from Mr. Keating and Mr. Yoho?
Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think what was interesting with this hearing, among many
things, was how we were dealing with how this radicalization
occurs, the stemming of it, how it is nurtured, and I think we
don't put enough emphasis on that, and we are going to have to,
and we can't just do it here in the U.S. We have to do it in
Europe and we have to do it certainly through the Mideast.
I look at the examples of what they are doing and how
sophisticated they are doing things, they are actually making
great efforts, whether it is ISIL or other radicalized groups
associated with al-Qaeda. They are destroying Muslim history in
many senses, not just orally and passing it on, but actually
through the destruction of artifacts and the destruction of
antiquities, and they are profiting actually from the sale of
those to help fuel their cause.
But in the process they are destroying it and they are
creating a new narrative of their own that is not historical,
is not traditional, it is not religious, so we touched on that,
and as we go forward I think that is something we should put
greater emphasis on.
And I want to thank our two witnesses for touching on those
things today in their testimony.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you, Mr. Keating.
And Mr. Yoho?
Mr. Yoho. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you both.
As we were talking about, and I am sure you have read the
book by Samuel Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations, talking
about the majority of the conflict in the world is Muslim to
Muslim, but when you insert the Westerner, they come together,
and we become the common enemy.
How much of the growth of radicalism comes from the hatred
of the West ideals of liberties and freedoms versus the Western
foreign policy or are they connected in your opinion?
Mr. Joscelyn. Well, I will say the ideology is deeply anti-
Western. A lot of times they view our foreign policy through a
very conspiratorial lens which doesn't actually reflect
reality.
So, you know, for example, even though we were on the side
of Bosnian Muslims during the conflict there in the 1990s, you
know, Osama bin Laden was able to rationalize critique of U.S.
policy because we didn't deliver arms to Muslim forces quick
enough.
Mr. Yoho. Right.
Mr. Joscelyn. So it is deeply--it is more ideological than
my view of being anti-Western than it is really foreign policy
driven.
Mr. Yoho. Is it Ms. Pandith, right?
Ms. Pandith. Yes.
Mr. Yoho. The girls that were in Australia, were they
Australian background? Were they born there or are they of
Muslim descent?
Ms. Pandith. It was Austria. If I misspoke----
Mr. Yoho. I am sorry, Austria.
Ms. Pandith. No, no, no, it is all right. I believe that
they were born there. I can double check for you and get back
to you on that point.
Mr. Yoho. Well, because what I see is the lone wolf
starting to develop in this country like that Alvin--I think it
was Ali Muhammad Brown who had supposedly murdered four
American men in the name of Jihad against the West, and we just
don't want to see that over here, so I look forward to dealing
with you in the future and I hope----
Ms. Pandith. It would be my pleasure.
Mr. Yoho [continuing]. To help design policies that will
prevent this.
Thank you both. Have a great weekend.
Mr. Rohrabacher. I want to thank the witnesses.
Thank my fellow colleagues.
The American people need to know that we are taking this
very seriously and that there is a threat that is a merging
threat with this battle that is raging in Syria, it will impact
on our society and our safety. We have got to pay attention to
it.
What the people in Europe are now beginning to experience
are those people coming back from this conflict we will
experience as well. The wave will hit us, and it is--what we do
about it, we have to use our heads, but we have to be
courageous, and again we need to make sure that all Americans,
including Muslim Americans, are recruited in this effort. So I
want to thank the witnesses and this hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:28 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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