[House Hearing, 113 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION OVERSIGHT: EXAMINING THE INTEGRITY OF THE DISABILITY DETERMINATION APPEALS PROCESS ======================================================================= HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION __________ JUNE 10, 2014 __________ Serial No. 113-128 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov http://www.house.gov/reform ______ U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 89-597 PDF WASHINGTON : 2014 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800 DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM DARRELL E. ISSA, California, Chairman JOHN L. MICA, Florida ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland, MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio Ranking Minority Member JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of JIM JORDAN, Ohio Columbia JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts TIM WALBERG, Michigan WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan JIM COOPER, Tennessee PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia PATRICK MEEHAN, Pennsylvania JACKIE SPEIER, California SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee MATTHEW A. CARTWRIGHT, TREY GOWDY, South Carolina Pennsylvania BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois DOC HASTINGS, Washington ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois ROB WOODALL, Georgia PETER WELCH, Vermont THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky TONY CARDENAS, California DOUG COLLINS, Georgia STEVEN A. HORSFORD, Nevada MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico KERRY L. BENTIVOLIO, Michigan Vacancy RON DeSANTIS, Florida Lawrence J. Brady, Staff Director John D. Cuaderes, Deputy Staff Director Stephen Castor, General Counsel Linda A. Good, Chief Clerk David Rapallo, Minority Staff Director C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on June 10, 2014.................................... 1 WITNESSES The Hon. Tom Coburn, A U.S. Senator from the State of Oklahoma Oral Statement............................................... 2 Mr. Harry C. Taylor II, Administrative Law Judge, Charleston, West Virginia, Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, Social Security Administration Oral Statement............................................... 20 Written Statement............................................ 23 Mr. Charles Bridges, Administrative Law Judge, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, Social Security Administration Oral Statement............................................... 27 Written Statement............................................ 30 Mr. Gerald I. Krafsur, Administrative Law Judge, Kingsport, Tennessee, Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, Social Security Administration Oral Statement............................................... 36 Written Statement............................................ 38 Mr. James A. Burke, Administrative Law Judge, Albuquerque, New Mexico, Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, Social Security Administration Oral Statement............................................... 41 Written Statement............................................ 43 APPENDIX June 9, 2014 letter to U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Kentucky by Rep. Speier, submitted by Rep. Cummings............ 78 Opening Statement of Rep. Cummings............................... 81 Staff Report: ``Systemic Waste and Abuse at the Social Security Administration: How Rubber-Stamping Disability Judges Cost Hundreds of Billions of Taxpayer Dollars, submitted by Chairman Lankford....................................................... 83 Opening Statement of Chairman Lankford........................... 138 Questions for the record sent to all witnesses................... 140 Judge Harry C. Taylor II responses to member questions........... 142 Questions for Mr. Charles Bridges................................ 169 Responses to committee questions for Judge James A. Burke........ 179 SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION OVERSIGHT: EXAMINING THE INTEGRITY OF THE DISABILITY DETERMINATION APPEALS PROCESS ---------- Tuesday, June 10, 2014 House of Representatives, Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:33 a.m., in Room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Darrell E. Issa [chairman of the committee] presiding. Present: Representatives Issa, Mica, Turner, Duncan, Jordan, Chaffetz, Walberg, Lankford, Amash, Gosar, DesJarlais, Gowdy, Farenthold, Woodall, Meadows, Bentivolio, DeSantis, Cummings, Maloney, Norton, Tierney, Clay, Connolly, Speier, Duckworth, Kelly, Davis, Horsford and Lujan Grisham. Staff Present: Brian Blase, Senior Professional Staff Member; Molly Boyl, Deputy General Counsel and Parliamentarian; Lawrence J. Brady, Staff Director; Caitlin Carroll, Press Secretary; Sharon Casey, Senior Assistant Clerk; John Cuaderes, Deputy Staff Director; Adam P. Fromm, Director of Member Services and Committee Operations; Linda Good, Chief Clerk; Tyler Grimm, Senior Professional Staff Member; Christopher Hixon, Chief Counsel for Oversight; Mark D. Marin, Deputy Staff Director for Oversight; Emily Martin, Counsel; Laura L. Rush, Deputy Chief Clerk; Jessica Seale, Digital Director; Andrew Shult, Deputy Digital Director; Katy Summerlin, Press Assistant; Sharon Meredith Utz, Professional Staff Member; Peter Warren, Legislative Policy Director; Rebecca Watkins, Communications Director; Jaron Bourke, Minority Director of Administration; Aryele Bradford, Minority Press Secretary; Jennifer Hoffman, Minority Communications Director; Elisa LaNier, Minority Director of Operations; Juan McCullum, Minority Clerk; Suzanne Owen, Minority Senior Policy Advisor; Brian Quinn, Minority Counsel; and Dave Rapallo, Minority Staff Director. Chairman Issa. The committee will come to order. The oversight committee exists to secure two fundamental principles: First, Americans have a right to know that the money Washington takes from them is well spent--well, at least that we are trying to have it well spent; and second, Americans deserve an efficient, effective government that works for them. Our duty on the Oversight and Government Reform Committee is to protect these rights. Our solemn responsibility is to hold government accountable to taxpayers because taxpayers have a right to know what they get from the government. It is our job to work tirelessly in partnership with citizen watchdogs to deliver the facts to the American people and bring genuine reform to the Federal bureaucracy. This is our mission statement. And, Senator, I only did that one because we are pleased to have you here today. We will do our opening statements after your testimony. Take the time you need. The fact is that there is no better watchdog in Congress, either side of the Capitol, than you have been, and the hearing we are going to have later today really is the result of the hard work you have done to bring this issue, this growing multibillion-dollar issue to the American people. So my friend, and Senator from Oklahoma, you are recognized. STATEMENT OF THE HON. TOM COBURN, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA Senator Coburn. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman and Representative Cummings. I appreciate the invite. I would correct your statement. Actually all this comes about because loyal Americans who work for the Social Security system have raised the issues that we looked at and found to be credible. Most of us know that the Social Security Disability Trust Fund is in precarious shape. At the end of this year, we will go into 2015, probably in this last year, where we don't have to make cuts. And there are some pretty significant rules about whether we can transfer money to that Disability Trust Fund. Our research says we can't, which means the 11 million Americans who are presently in need of those payments will receive a cut. I have been investigating this for about the past 4 or 5 years, and, again, it came on the basis of whistleblowers who actually work for the Federal Government. I look forward to reviewing the findings of your report, and that we continue to have an ongoing investigation. The first report we put out was bipartisan. We will continue to do that in bipartisan. Senator Levin and I have been very interested in making sure we know what the rules are, how the program works, how it is supposed to work, and whether or not there is compliance with that. What we do know is the size of the program is staggering. We spent $137 billion on this program last year. Senator Carl Levin and I did a review. My staff initially reviewed 300 random cases that were selected randomly through a computerized model from Social Security for three different offices, one in my home State. I try to do something for my home State every time to make sure we are not missing it when I am doing oversight. And what we found was alarming. What we found is 25 percent of those cases--and I personally read the medical history on about 100 of these cases as a practicing physician. But what we found is 25 percent of the cases should never have been approved for benefits based on Social Security's own rules and procedures. So we had 25 percent where their own administrative law judges didn't follow their own rules. Interesting, they shared with us that their own internal review showed that they found 22 percent of like cases of their own ALJs not following the procedures and rules that have been set up. We specifically looked in our investigation at Huntington, West Virginia, because the problems that we came to find were similar to those we found in our prior investigation, only much, much worse. And this got our attention because this office processed more disability cases than any other office in the Nation, and so when we looked at it, much of that could be accounted to one attorney, Eric C. Conn. In spite of practicing in a town of 500 people, he had become the third highest payment, Social Security, receiving over $4 million in agency fees in 2010. When we looked more closely at Mr. Conn's operations, we found reasons for serious concern. Some of what Mr. Conn did was outright fraud; at times, he was simply able to exploit loopholes in the program. Both of those should be a concern for us in Congress given the precarious nature of the trust fund. To ensure that Mr. Conn's cases were approved and keep his fees flowing, Mr. Conn colluded with an ALJ in Huntington, West Virginia, by the name of David Daugherty. The two worked together to award billions of dollars in fraudulent disability claims. Their plan involved several calculated steps. First, in order to make sure Mr. Conn's cases were approved, Judge Daugherty needed to make sure Mr. Conn's cases got in front of him. Normally, agency rules require that the oldest case goes to the first available ALJ. He bypassed that, and I won't go into details. It is in my written testimony on how he did that. But he inappropriately reassigned cases when they weren't assigned to him by going into a computer system and reassigning them to himself. The next thing he would do is he would call the attorney's office with a list of names and Social Security numbers telling Mr. Conn what he needed in terms of either a medical or physical or psychological impairment to be able to approve the case. And it wasn't really that difficult because Mr. Conn had prefilled out all the forms. He had about 30 different forms, and he would just randomly put one, whether it had any connection whatsoever to the patient's history at all. And so he would assign one of those. Mr. Conn also collected a number of doctors who actually conspired to do what he wanted done at his bidding, and paid out millions of dollars to these doctors, many of whom had lost licenses in other States and had significant histories that would render their regular practice of medicine questionable. He paid around $500 per review, which sometimes took less than 15 minutes. So you can see that there was motivation for money with the physicians as well. In one instance our committee determined that 97 of Mr. Conn's claimants approved by Judge Daugherty had the exact same residual functional capacity, a statistical impossibility, which showed that he was using preset forms to get the answers that he wanted. Judge Daugherty would then write a boilerplate decision to approve the claim for benefits, always finding that the information and evidence provided by Mr. Conn outweighed any and all other evidence in the file, most of which was never, ever looked at. Mr. Conn made millions, as I said. The committee also discovered that Judge Daugherty had deposited in his bank account $100,000 in unexplained cash deposits over this period of time. But Judge Daugherty wasn't only approving Mr. Conn's cases. In just the last 5 years working for the agency, Judge Daugherty awarded more than $2.5 billion and had an approval rate in excess of 95 percent. If that is not bad enough, the breakdown in the management of the Social Security system was evident as well. Judge Charlie Andrus--and Judge Daugherty could have been stopped by Judge Andrus. He chose not to do that. He chose not to discipline him. He chose not to reprimand him. He chose not to do what he had in his powers, the chief judge. He allowed Judge Daugherty to approve a high number of claims, and, because of this, Judge Andrus was touted and sent around the country on how to do things by the Social Security system. Mr. Andrus did nothing to stop Mr. Conn or Judge Daugherty. He looked the other way. At one point it became obvious that Judge Daugherty was no longer bothering to even hold any hearings. They were all done on the record. The other thing that we know is that Judge Daugherty would come in, sign in, leave the Social Security office, come back in the afternoon, sign out and leave. He wasn't even there. The other thing that we found was that Mr. Andrus colluded with Mr. Conn to target a whistleblower in his office. That is a big charge. When he was questioned about this by our staff, he said he couldn't recall whether or not he instructed someone to do certain things. However, he wasn't happy about losing the top position in his office, so he teamed up with Mr. Conn to target a whistleblower trying to--when there was work from home on one Sarah Carver. What they did was spy on her, try to photo her, proving that she wasn't actually working from home so that they could terminate Ms. Carver. Judge Andrus, after lying to the committee, later confessed to the plan, explaining what he and Mr. Conn were trying to do. He had asked a Ms. Sarah Nease to call one of Mr. Conn's employees on the days Ms. Carver was scheduled to work from home, and then he would have one of Mr. Conn's employees follow her and track her and stalk her to make sure during the work hours she wasn't doing anything but work. And, of course, Sarah was a great employee. She actually did her work from home. That is why she was a great whistleblower. He was not truthful with the committee. Twenty-four months after he--correction, a few months after he lied to the committee, he had a sudden remembrance of the facts and confessed to exactly what happened, and signed a 24-page sworn statement to the agency, and he confirmed what I just laid out. After that Mr. Andrus was put on paid administrative leave and filed a claim with the Merit Systems Protection Board. This is after he admitted to conspiring with Mr. Conn to target one of his own employees. He voluntarily retired, according to a decision from the Merit Systems Protection Board. The system charged him with conduct unbecoming an ALJ, engaging in apparent conflict of interest, lack of candor--in other words lying--and unauthorized disclosures. Despite these charges he had a settlement agreement, that this agency did nothing. He retired today with full pension intact. So there was no consequence. The final point I would make is when we finished our investigation on Huntington, the entire package was sent to the Department of Justice. To date nothing has happened. Mr. Conn has not been indicted; Judge Daugherty has not been indicted; Judge Andrus has not been indicted. So something has to change in terms of the enforcement of our laws and the rule of law if, in fact, we are to change Social Security system. We have a lot of great employees at the Social Security system, and we have a lot of people with true needs. If we don't fix this through both oversight and legislative changes, this system will not be available to the extent it is today for those that are truly disabled in this country. I would be happy to take any questions you might have for me. Chairman Issa. Thank you. The Senator has agreed to take a few questions. I am going to yield first to the ranking member Mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much. Senator, thank you very much for being here. I have the utmost respect for you, and I thank you for looking into these kinds of matters. I must say that the Social Security Administration is based in my district, headquarters, and I am thankful that you said that we have a lot of great employees, because sometimes we can give this broad brush. And all those people who are working overtime and busting their butts, they get painted with the brush. So I am glad you said that. And I find, as a lawyer, the comments that--the descriptions that you gave, if people are doing those types of things, and I have no reason to believe they are not, it is reprehensible. And we are better than that, and we should be. I want to see if we can come to some areas. You know, a lot of times we have hearings, and in the words of my former sharecropper mother, she says, you have motion, commotion, emotion and no results. And so I want to see if we can find areas of agreement, and I want to ask you just three questions. The Social Security Administration is supposed to conduct continuing disability reviews every 3 years. These reviews ensure that individuals continue to have the disabilities that qualify them for disability assistance, that they are not receiving payments improperly. But there is currently a backlog of 1.3 million CDRs. During our investigation witnesses told us these reviews are highly cost effective, and I know that is a big deal for you, cost effectiveness, and for me, too. They estimate that every dollar spent on the CDR saves $9 in improper payments. The inspector general testified that if the backlog in CDRs were eliminated, we could save more than $2 billion per year. The problem he identified is a lack of adequate funding. In our previous hearing, Congresswoman Duckworth asked the inspector general if there was any reason for this backlog other than adequate funding. This was his response: No, because we can pretty much show from all the work that we have done is when Social Security dedicates the resources of doing it, and the dedication is coming from their funding, they will reduce the backlog. Question: Dr. Coburn, Senator, do you believe that Congress should fully fund continuing disability reviews to eliminate the current backlog, and did your research go into that at all? Senator Coburn. Not under the way it is done today, because a lot of CDRs are just a postcard mailed to somebody that says, are you still disabled? And they fill it out and send it back, so there is no real investigation with a lot of them. What needs to happen, I believe, is those people who we know are going to be permanently disabled, you know, the medical science and the medical record would show there is not going to be a way for them to get into the workplace, those should never have a continuing disability review. We shouldn't waste any resources on it. What we should do is recategorize those who get disability, ones with what should be a short-term, ones that have a chance, and then ones that have no chance, and then concentrate that, but it needs to be a CDR. So I am all for funding a real CDR at adequate levels, but you are fixing the wrong problem. Chairman Issa. Yeah. Senator Coburn. The problem is a census report--the Senate report came out. The approval rates dropped precipitously because the judges weren't, in uniform, following their own regulations. So if you put people on disability who are not truly disabled, and you send a postcard saying, are you still disabled, they are going to answer yes. So it is not going to do anything. So I agree that we should fund it, but we need major changes. I would make one other point: Remember, when somebody comes before an ALJ, they have already been turned down twice by people very knowledgeable in the system. Two separate Social Security employees have looked at either the grid or the medical history, looked at the law and the requirements, and have said no. The key thing we need is that input, since the judges routinely won't read their input, into the trial hearing, into the disability determination so that the input of the paid professionals working for Social Security is actually heard. There is a lot of other gimmicks and loopholes that Eric Conn used to change the medical record falsely so that the most recent piece of information would be there and only arrive a day before a hearing, and that is what routinely happens today. So we need structural change within how we do this, and we need continued oversight. If we do good work over the next year or so in terms of fixing this, and we don't oversight it afterwards--you know, the reason this happened is because we weren't doing good oversight routinely. What is your approval rate? Are you following the regulations? Are you doing the continuing disability reviews? So I would say if we have a good system, we ought to fund it adequately to make sure it can work. Mr. Cummings. I had said three questions, I am just going to ask you one more. The inspector general said that we should fully fund antifraud efforts because he believes that we can save a lot of money generally in Social Security. I mean, do you agree with that? Senator Coburn. Yeah, I do, but the antifraud efforts have to look at those ALJs that are fraudulent as well. So you have to look inside as well as outside. Mr. Cummings. Again, I really appreciate you being here. Senator Coburn. Thank you, sir. Mr. Cummings. Thank you. Chairman Issa. Senator, our report found that 191 ALJs, administrative law judges, had allowance rates in excess of 85 percent, and these are people, as you said, that were turned down once or twice by the previous reviews, 85 percent over the past decades. These ALJs collectively awarded more than $150 billion in lifetime benefits. Does that seem about consistent with what you had seen during your investigation? Senator Coburn. It is, yes. Chairman Issa. Now, in the Senate it takes 51 people to pass something. Senator Coburn. No, it takes 60. Chairman Issa. It seems to take 51 lately, but okay. It takes 60 to get a vote and 51 to pass. How many people got to vote on what these judges got to do? How many got to second- guess them? Were these effectively administrative law judges that each time they said yes when they should have said no, they were writing a $300 million appropriation of the taxpayers' money--$300,000. I am sorry, $300,000. Senator Coburn. I actually don't put the blame on the administrative law judges. I put it on us. You know, until we had whistleblowers come forward, we weren't doing the due diligence that we are supposed to be doing. We weren't having a hearing to see what was going on. Chairman Issa. You have got Judge Huntington, who effectively was the Duke Cunningham of ALJs, wasn't he? Similar to our colleague who took bribes in order to do appropriations, he was taking money in order for a lawyer to make a few hundred thousand dollars, a few tens of thousands of dollars, but a client to receive $300,000 over a lifetime. He was essentially selling for a few thousand dollars millions or billions of dollars' worth of yours and my money. Senator Coburn. Well, to be fair to Judge Daugherty, we don't know where he got the cash. So the assumption would be-- -- Chairman Issa. He may have simply colluded with this guy for free. Senator Coburn. Yeah. Chairman Issa. That is an incredible level of generosity. Senator Coburn. Either way, the fact is the system is broken. We are not following the guidelines. It is improving as we've improved our oversight. But we have not done the oversight, and that is why I am thankful that you all are doing this. What needs to come forward--we are working with the disability community right now to try to make the major reforms with the truly disabled to make sure we don't put anything we do at peril for them, but at the same time exclude those that want to game the system. So we are trying to work with that. We have offered to work with your committee in terms of trying to formulate and then get it to the appropriate committee of jurisdiction what needs to be done. I want to tell you one other story. There is a gentleman in Oklahoma that has been in a wheelchair his whole life. He works for the State Disability Determination Unit, and he has put over 300 people who are totally disabled to work in the last 2 years, full time, paying jobs with health insurance. So, you know, that is the better answer is if we are going to spend money, let us spend money on helping people become productive members of the society with their disability. And so I think we need to do it all, but there certainly needs to be a continuing oversight, a continuing IG. The other question you should ask yourself, and this is no reflection on the IG that is there presently, is why wasn't the IG catching some of this before, before it became a story through whistleblowers' leaks through a newspaper? So we have real work to do, and it is not just in Social Security disability; it is throughout government. Chairman Issa. I appreciate it. Real quick follow-up. In the case of Judge Daugherty, do you believe he should be prosecuted? You suggested---- Senator Coburn. Absolutely. Chairman Issa. --referral, you sent it. The statute of limitations probably hasn't expired for it. He could still be prosecuted as we speak. Senator Coburn. I believe he should be prosecuted, I believe Judge Andrus should be prosecuted, and I believe Mr. Conn should be prosecuted. Chairman Issa. Now, I was just in Oklahoma this weekend, and the one thing I figured out quickly in Oklahoma is you love your football. Senator Coburn. We do. Chairman Issa. And my understanding is when you win or lose a game, the coach doesn't get to come out the next day and say, you know, what I needed was more players, or I needed to pay my players more. He gets to have---- Senator Coburn. We don't pay players in Oklahoma like California, like some of the other States. Chairman Issa. Well, minor versus major. But the--don't the Texans laugh. Don't even think about it. It was a Texan that built that big stadium in Oklahoma, so just get over it. I have got a lot of Texans here, and I have only got one great Oklahoman. I think he is right down there. But the fact is that the IG recommends basically a whole lot more money for a lot more people, a bigger team. Do you believe if that team were reviewing the excesses of these ALJs, the cases that were allowed that should not have been allowed, isn't that the low-hanging fruit? Couldn't you have basically moved the ball a lot of yards down the grid if, in fact, you were able to just simply look at people over 85 percent and say, let us look at those cases again? And if we look at those cases, those are the people we ought to go find out if they are really disabled. Would you agree with that? Senator Coburn. Well, I think, to some extent. But remember, you have had this swelling application because we have created the predicate that it is so easy to get disability, and you have lawyers advertising all the time telling them, we will get you taken care of. So you have a workload there. And in that mix, 50 percent in that mix are people who are really disabled, and if we don't attend to that, we are not. So I would agree that we ought to review where the outliers are, but we also ought to fund appropriately and also have the judges really pay attention to the career Social Security people who are making these determinations in the first place. Almost all of them get appealed to a judge. And then after two professionals within Social Security have said, no, you are not eligible, even now 50 percent of them get overridden by a judge who isn't looking at the whole record. The professionals inside Social Security look at the whole record. The judges rarely do. You know, some of these stacks are this thick. Let me just give you a little bit of history. Michael Andrus was approved-- Astrue was approved to be head of Social Security. The message Congress gave him is, get rid of the backlog. Guess what? He did. He didn't do it right, but he got rid of a lot of the backlog while he was head of Social Security. Sloppy work. And that became their impetus. It is not whether they are disabled or not, it is to get rid of the case, and we created that demand on him. So Congress, again, we need to look at our own House, and we need to do continuing oversight, not just bullet oversight. We start it, and we continue it. Chairman Issa. Thank you, Senator. Mr. Lankford, do you have a quick question? Mr. Lankford. I do have a quick question. Chairman Issa. Senator, we understand you are going to have to leave shortly, so we are on your schedule. Mr. Lankford. Mr. Lankford. Just a quick question. We have obviously had multiple hearings on this, as you have in the Senate as well. One of the things that comes up over and over again, the Social Security Administration says there is no way to be able to address to the CDRs overturning any of these cases because they can't show medical improvement because of the way the opinion was written by the ALJ, that they don't have anything. One quick note from one that is just an illustration, you have tracked all those well, the focused review--and I am going to pull out one judge's focused review--said during the hearing, he asked the claimant if he had difficulty walking. They responded in the affirmative, and so he said he had degenerative disc disease, though there was nothing in the medical record that actually said it. Now, CDR doesn't matter on that because you are not going to show medical improvement because they can't show there is any medical problem at the beginning. How widespread have you seen that is, and what is the difficulty there with this evaluation on showing medical improvement when they can't show there was a medical problem in the first place? Senator Coburn. What you are talking about is an incompetent ALJ that didn't look at the record, because unless it is in the record and you have scientific proof for it, you have no basis to take the statement. Every one of us is disabled in a certain way, and so all of us could claim a certain disability for some aspect of our health, but the fact is is there is a record, and if the record isn't looked at, you can't ever get the right answer. Mr. Lankford. And trying to overturn that, no matter what your CDR is, you can't show medical improvement if you can't show there was a medical problem in the first place. So you are permanently stuck in the disability system without any way to be able to come out of it. Senator Coburn. Well, here is the other problem with it. If you put somebody in disability that is not truly disabled, what you did is put a ceiling on their ability to achieve, perform, grow, succeed. And they carry that label as, ``I am disabled, and I can't,'' rather than ``I am not disabled, I have problems, but I can.'' And so not only do we have an impact financially in our country, we take all these people's--their hopes and aspirations and say, we confirm you can't, instead of saying, we believe you can. And that is what is so great about Jason Price in Oklahoma is he has taken people who have real hard disabilities and showed them how they could. And that is what we need to do more of. Mr. Mica. [Presiding.] Thank you, Mr. Lankford. We will let Ms. Speier--I think she had a quick question. Ms. Speier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Senator, for the outstanding work that you and Senator Carper have done in the Senate on this issue. Chairman Lankford and I have worked closely together in a bipartisan fashion in the subcommittee hearings that we have had on this issue. One of the things that is most disturbing to me is that even with the mountains of evidence against the ALJ Daugherty and Eric Conn, no action has been taken against either of them, and, in fact, my understanding is that Eric Conn is still handling cases in the Huntington office on behalf of claimants. So the inspector general--I think Patrick O'Carroll has done an outstanding job. I mean, I think he is top drawer, and his investigation with over 130 interviews suggests that there is plenty of evidence. Now, the Attorney General has not taken any action. The Social Security Administration has been waiting for a prosecution, and just yesterday both Mr. Lankford and I signed a letter to the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District in Kentucky to request an independent evaluation, because nothing is happening on these cases. In your reviews is there anything the Social Security Administration can do independent of waiting for a legal prosecution to take place? What administrative action do you think they still have the ability to take against both Judge Daugherty and Eric Conn? Senator Coburn. Well, I am not a lawyer, and so I really don't know. What I can tell you is they can sanction Mr. Conn if they wanted to. I mean, the evidence is out there in the report that Senator Levin and I published along with Senator Carper and Senator McCain. They could sanction him; say, you can no longer practice before the Social Security Administration. They could do that. Now, there would be a fight, because he is going to fight that because he is making millions of dollars a year off of it, but they could do that. And that is called leadership. That is setting an example to send the same example to other law firms that are abusing the system. We are in the midst of taking a good look at another large law firm right now that specializes in this. And the whistleblowers, the story they tell is not pretty: cheating, misinformation, nonauthenticated facts, not including pertinent facts in the records even though they assert that they do. So there is a lot of things they can do, but if Justice Department isn't going to do anything, and Social Security isn't going to do anything, it is not going to matter what we do if we don't do something. We have to ask them to do that. And I am truly frustrated. We sent a very well-packaged case to the Justice Department on this with stuff under oath, documented, the facts laid out, and no action has been taken on them. Ms. Speier. So from a legislative perspective, I mean, I am with you 100 percent in terms of our responsibility in terms of oversight and that it has to be consistent and not just a drop in the bucket. But what legislative remedies would you recommend that we embrace to fix this problem? Now, in fairness to ALJs generally, there is 1,500 of them---- Senator Coburn. Yes. Ms. Speier. --and we cannot suggest that 1,500 of them are not doing their job. Senator Coburn. No, that is not true at all. Ms. Speier. In fact, the vast majority are doing their jobs. Senator Coburn. As a matter of fact, a lot of the information we got was from very good ALJs saying, here is what is going on. They would see it in their colleagues. Ms. Speier. So---- Senator Coburn. And they would say, how in the world could somebody do this when I am struggling to get through all these records every day and make a real determination? How can somebody do that? Ms. Speier. Right. Senator Coburn. So this is not to impugn all ALJs, but we have a large number of ALJs who are improving now, now that the story is out. Here is the answer: If we write a reform bill on Social Security, we have to be very specific about what we expect. Here is what Congress typically does. We pass a law, and we say, you figure out how to implement it, and what we need to do is start being very specific on what we mean and what we want to be implemented. Here is the standards. In other words, not let the bureaucracy set the standards; we will set the standards in statute so that they have to comply. Ms. Speier. So what would your standards be? Senator Coburn. My standards would be is, number one, a continuing review of ALJs to see that they are actually looking at the record; number two, continuing review of lawyers before the ALJ court to see if, in fact, they are abusing the privileges of practicing before that court, not submitting all the information. That is routine today. Pertinent medical information is excluded from the record on purpose, because if it was in there, they would not get their disability; adding new material after the case is set for docket, in other words, finally finding a doctor that will say what they want them to say and then that being the latest piece of information. So the system is gamed. So we have to write a bill, and we have to put the rules and the specs, commonsense stuff. Not stuff--we want to err on the side of giving somebody disability that doesn't have disability, because if we don't, we are going to miss some people who are truly disabled. So a small percentage of that would be commonsensical, but we can't do what we are doing today, and so what I would recommend is having Social Security before you, what are you doing to change this? How are you changing it? How are things improving? What is your approval rate? What is your denial rate? What is happening? What are you doing on late evidence? What are you doing to lawyers who bring up cases and don't put the information in the medical record; in other words, exclude bad information. And that happens routinely right now. Ms. Speier. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman Issa. [Presiding.] Thank you. Senator, I want to thank you for the generosity of your time. You stayed far longer than we thought you were going to be able to. Senator Coburn. Well, I just appreciate you all looking into this. We have got to fix it, because the people who truly are disabled in this country are depending on this system, and it is belly up in a year. Chairman Issa. Thank you. We will take a short recess and just set up for the second panel. Thank you. [recess.] Chairman Issa. The committee will come back to order. The Social Security Disability Insurance Program and the Supplemental Security Insurance Program have both seen explosive growth over the last decade. Through these programs nearly 20 million people received $200 billion of annual benefits. At this rate, however, the program is financially unsustainable. The SSDI program is set to go bankrupt in 2016, when the trust fund is finally depleted. Those who have genuine disabilities who depend on this program will be hurt the most. It is no secret that serious problems within the disability programs are contributing to the insolvency. Today's hearing will focus on the role of administrative law judges, often referred to as ALJs, and concerns about the agency's lack of oversight for these key actors. ALJs work in the executive branch. They are, in fact, executive or, if you will, nonjudges in the sense of the other branch. They work for the President and for the administration. These quasi-independent government adjudicators are responsible for determining whether or not a person who has already been denied disability benefits should, in fact, receive those benefits. Every case that comes before an ALJ has already been denied at least once, and often twice. Yet ALJs overturn a shocking number of these denials. Between 2005 and 2013, two-thirds, 66 percent, of all applicants who appealed benefit denial decisions to an ALJ were awarded benefits and placed on Federal disability. During this time period seven different ALJs went an entire year where they approved every single case that came across their desk. Some even repeated this dubious feat, receiving 1,000 batting average, if you will, for another year. In a previous hearing ALJs told this committee that denying a claim requires more paperwork to justify the decision and invites scrutiny. This gives ALJs a bureaucratic incentive to approve cases. ALJs also told the committee that they felt pressured to meet quota of decision each year. The judges testified that they received training from the agency to speed up their decisionmaking, including instructions to set an egg timer, limiting reviews to no more than 20 minutes per case. And again, that is 20 minutes per case that might be, as the Senator said, 2 feet high. Prior to 2011, the only metrics the Social Security Administration used to evaluate ALJs was the number of cases the judges decided; in other words, the measure of quantity but not quality in their review. In 2010, the agency finally decided to publish allowance data. These are statistics about how often ALJs reverse denials and/or allow benefits. Tellingly, the national allowance rate began to fall after the agency made the data public. Again, it was not known; once it was known, the rate of approval began falling. During the time after it was made public, not a single ALJ received a perfect batting average. As we see time and time again, transparency and access to information improves governing. The fact that ALJ allowance rates declined so rapidly in such a short period of time raises serious questions about the high national allowance rate prior to 2010, meaning prior to 2010 it is likely that hundreds, thousands or even millions of individuals who were not disabled received that lifetime benefit of approximately $300,000 in disability payments. On 60 Minutes last fall, one administrative law judge stated that ``if the American public knew what was going on in our system, half would be outraged, and the other half would apply for benefits.'' Today's hearing is an opportunity for the American people and the American public to see just what exactly is going on in these disability programs and how much it is costing the American taxpayer each year. The four administrative law judges who join us here today have approved an average of more than 95 percent of disability cases they have received combined. These ALJs have awarded more than $11 billion in lifetime benefits in just over the last decade. Internal agency reviews of their decisions shows significant and frequent problems in both decisions they made and the hearings they conducted. The reviews raise serious concerns about how many of the individuals they awarded benefits to actually met the criteria for disability compensation. The committee staff report released today found evidence the ALJs disregarded established procedures for deciding cases. Some examples: Instead of following procedures to inform applicants in writing after all evidence had been considered, ALJs sometimes made it their practice to immediately tell applicants when they testified that they would be awarded benefits. Vocational experts hired by the Social Security Administration to provide professional expertise during hearings were sometimes ignored, not permitted to testify, or even only permitted to testify after the ALJ had proclaimed the conclusion granting the disability. Some ALJs actually discussed, perhaps even bragging to applicants during proceedings, about how many cases they heard and approved. In short, and despite the fact that every appeal they heard had been denied at least once before, some ALJs rubber-stamped for approval almost every single case that came before them. For a program that is staring down bankruptcy, this lack of accountability is unacceptable and must be changed. I am looking forward to today's testimony as we try to get to the bottom of the problem before us and restore integrity to these important programs. I now recognize the ranking member for his opening statement. Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I truly thank you for holding this hearing today. I think it is a very, very important hearing. And today the committee begins 2 days of hearings to examine the actions of administrative law judges who determine whether individuals with disabilities qualify for financial assistance under the Social Security Disability Insurance Program. Congress created this program in the 1950s as a lifeline for millions of Americans who pay their taxes and show up at their jobs every day, but experience disabilities that stop them from working. Recently there have been allegations of criminal fraud by one particular judge. These actions are reprehensible, and they diminish the confidence that most Americans have in this program. Yesterday our colleague Jackie Speier, the ranking member of the Subcommittee on Energy Policy, Health Care, and Entitlements, sent an important letter to the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Kentucky. She asked them to evaluate evidence of criminal activity committed by an administrative law judge there. I want to thank her for these efforts, and I ask that her entire letter be included in the hearing record. Mr. Lankford. [Presiding.] Without objection. Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I also want to thank Senator Carper, who was supposed to be here, who I also had a chance to talk to, and Senator Coburn, who was here with us today, for their role in exposing the details of this case. Today's hearing does not concern allegations of criminal activity, but rather claims that some judges simply approve too many disability cases. Today the majority has invited four judges with allowance rates higher than 90 percent. This means that on an average they find disabilities and award financial aid in 90 percent of the cases they hear. I believe that it is appropriate to review the actions of individual judges not to compromise their independence, but to ensure that they are following agency policy. It is interesting that Senator Coburn said that there are some judges that don't even follow agency policy; said that in 25 percent of the cases that he looked at, that was the case. That is most unfortunate. All four judges here today received attention from the Social Security Administration long before this committee ever got involved. They received in-depth reviews of their decisions and training to address problems identified by the agency. In fact, the Social Security Administration is in the process of removing one judge, one of our judges here, from his job to a filing with the Merit Systems Protection Board. Although I support these individual reviews, I strongly oppose the broad condemnation of all administrative law judges. As Senator Coburn said, a lot of the information that he got, and others, in looking at these cases came from those administrative law judges who do their jobs and follow the rules. The 4 judges here today are not representative of the 1,500 judges who work at the Social Security Administration. Even they admit that they are outliers. According to the Social Security Administration, last year the entire pool of administrative law judges had an average allowance rate of 57 percent. That is the lowest overall allowance rate since 1979. The fact is that over the last decade, the Social Security Administration has significantly improved its efforts to collect and analyze data about judges' decisions. It has expanded training, improved performance, sharpened disciplinary procedure and enhanced efforts to combat fraud. But if more needs to be done, we have to make sure it is done. We cannot continue to have this kind of situation where 90 percent of the cases are being approved. But those efforts have been hindered by failure of Congress to provide adequate funding. Right now the agency cannot hire enough judges to hear cases. So individuals now wait more than a year for disability hearings, and it is even getting worse. We even received testimony during our investigation about people dying while they waited for their benefits. Congress has also underfunded antifraud programs to save taxpayers money. There is a huge backlog of continuing disability reviews, for example, which are supposed to be conducted every 3 years to make sure beneficiaries continue to have the disabilities that make them eligible. Again, Senator Coburn said we should do that, but we should find a way to make it more effective and properly funded, and I agree with him. These reviews save taxpayers $9 for every $1 they cost, but Congress has not provided enough funding to conduct them. Congress has also failed to fully fund inspector general's antifraud investigating units, so they simply do not exist in nearly half the country. This is the price of austerity. When we starve an agency of resources, it affects not only my constituents in Baltimore, but the constituents of every member of this committee in the House. If we care about improving this program, we need to invest in its success. Let me close by noting the inaccuracy of claims that judges with high allowance rates are contributing to the insolvency of the Disability Insurance Trust Fund. The projected insolvency of the fund was forecast in 1995 by the chief actuary of Social Security, and the cause has brought demographic changes across the country. As he explained, Congress can address this issue by passing a modest reallocation of payroll taxes to extend benefits by decades as Congress has done several times before. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to hearing our witnesses, and I yield back. Mr. Lankford. Thank you. I will do a brief opening statement as well, and then I will yield to the ranking member on the subcommittee. Mr. Lankford. As you know, my subcommittee has held three hearings over the past year on the problems with Federal disability programs. It is clear that the growth of these programs is unsustainable for the Nation's taxpayers and it threatens the livelihood of the truly disabled who face large benefit cuts in the future if the program is not reformed. The Social Security Board of Trustees and the Congressional Budget Office estimated that without reform the Social Security Disability Insurance Trust Fund will be depleted in 2 years. At the outset, let me state that I appreciate the bipartisanship which my subcommittee has been able to approach this in all of our oversight. Ranking Member Speier and I both recognize there are significant problems with these programs and that reform is needed. I thank her very much for her work and our partnership on this issue. For all practical purposes the decision to allow benefits is an irrevocable commitment of taxpayer funds, since favorable decisions are not appealed and less than 1 percent of disability beneficiaries ever return to the workforce. Therefore, it is a decision which must be made with great care and proper consideration of all the evidence. It appears some ALJs are being very benevolent with other people's money. In June last year, my subcommittee heard testimony from two former and two current Social Security administrative law judges. That hearing showed that the agency's emphasis on processing cases quickly likely had the unintended consequences of ALJs putting too many people onto a program who are able to work. We learned that many ALJs use shortcuts and don't have time to consider all the evidence prior to rendering a decision. In addition to discussing problems within the appeals process, my subcommittee has also explored problems with the agency's continuing disability review process. The agency allowed a huge backlog of CDRs to develop. Moreover, the agency's current medical improvement standard is so flawed that a claimant who is not disabled and wrongfully received benefit initially cannot be removed from the program. This was part of my conversation with Dr. Coburn earlier. Today's detailed staff report and the hearing continues the committee's important oversight. I would like to add into the record the staff report for this. Without objection. Mr. Lankford. Here are some of the central facts explained in the committee report. First, Jasper Bede, regional chief administrative law judge for the agency, testified that it raises a red flag when ALJs allow benefits at a high rate, which he defined as over 75 or 80 percent. Between 2005 and 2009, over 40 percent of ALJs had an allowance rate in excess of 75 percent and over 20 percent of ALJs had an allowance rate in excess of 85 percent. Second, between 2005 and 2013, over 1.3 million individuals were placed onto disability by an ALJ with an allowance rate in excesses of 75 percent. Third, the raw numbers also suggest that the historic problem of ALJ decision making has been one-sided. For instance, 191 ALJs had a total allowance rate in excess of 85 percent between 2005 and 2013. Only a single ALJ had a total allowance rate below 15 percent during this same time period. Fourth, prior to 2011, the agency failed to assess the quality of ALJs' decisions in any way. The agency even failed to monitor whether ALJs were appropriately awarding benefits when ALJs awarded benefits without holding hearings. Instead, it appears that the only metric used by the agency to evaluate ALJs was the number of cases processed. Fifth, a 2012 Social Security Administration internal report confirmed this ``A strong relationship between production levels and a decision quality on allowances. As ALJs' production increases, the general trend for decision quality is to go down.'' A committee analysis of 30 internal agency reviews of high- allowance ALJs confirms this. The 30 reviews showed troubling patterns in judicial decision making, particularly how ALJs with high allowance rates failed to utilize medical and vocational experts in their hearings, how they improperly assessed drug and alcohol abuse in their decisions, and how they improperly assessed whether individuals can work. Tragically, evidence suggests that the agency's emphasis on high-volume adjudications over quality decision making has eroded the credibility of the disability appeals process, and, as a result, a large number of people are inappropriately on disability. In addition to the problems the excessive growth has on the truly disabled, these programs have too often limited people from reaching their full potential. According to a 2010 paper published jointly by the liberal Center for American Progress and the left-of-center Brookings Institute, the Social Security disability insurance program provides strong incentives to applicants and beneficiaries to remain permanently out of the workforce. I look forward to these two hearings today and tomorrow, and I hope to facilitate a productive discussion about how we can fix the systemic problems in the Federal disability programs so that precious taxpayer dollars are preserved for the truly disabled and those that we need to work and be engaged in work in our economy for their families are also incentivized to be able to return to the workforce. And with that, I recognize the ranking member on the subcommittee, Mrs. Speier. Ms. Speier. Mr. Chairman, thank you, and thank you for your outstanding leadership on this issue. During the course of the committee's oversight of Social Security Administration we have learned that there is room to do disability insurance better. We need to have more program integrity, more prevention of improper payments, and more commitment to improving quality. While the agency has taken steps towards reform, it has become clear that some of the concerns can only be addressed by Congress with additional resources for quality assurance and program integrity efforts. In April of this year, Chairman Lankford and I sent a bipartisan letter to the Social Security Administration that outlined several reforms and recommendations to improve the disability adjudication and review process to restore confidence in Federal disabilities programs. Just yesterday, I sent a letter to the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Kentucky requesting an independent review for prosecution of the evidence Social Security Administration has gathered with regard to an administrative law judge and a claimant's representative who allegedly colluded with fraudulent medical evidence to obtain disability benefits awarded to some thousands of individuals. And Senator Coburn has provided us with ample evidence of those cases. The American people expect and deserve action. I am concerned that justice has been long delayed in this case. Administrative actions against the judge and the lawyer have been put on hold pending a possible criminal prosecution. White the Inspector General has conducted over 130 interviews, examined bank and phone records, reviewed decisions, and collected thousands of documents to build a case, we have heard nothing--I repeat, nothing--from the U.S. Attorney in West Virginia. It is long past time to prosecute this case. I would like to acknowledge the work of Chairman Carper and Ranking Member Coburn of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Government Affairs for its investigation into these matters and reported findings released in a committee staff report. To echo the words of Chairman Carper, while we don't have any evidence that this is more than an isolated case, one example of inappropriate actions of this nature is one too many. Our oversight has also determined that the vast majority of administrative law judges are hardworking and strive to be compliant with the policies and regulations of the Social Security Administration. I do not believe that the judges invited to testify today are representative of the judge corps. Today the committee has invited a panel of current ALJs with extraordinarily high allowance rates. They are not reflective of the 1,500 judges nationally whose allowance rates averages are much lower. Some of today's invited judges also have alleged personal conduct issues that also raise concerns. All four of these judges have been evaluated by Social Security for their conduct and performance and have received additional training and counseling to help them become more compliant and responsive to the policies of the agency. Two of the judges are facing or have faced disciplinary actions for persistent conduct or performance problems. I don't know what this panel of witnesses can tell us. But I would alert all members that no one should appear at this hearing to try and influence how the Social Security Administration conducts its actions regarding the discipline of these specific judges. We should not thwart, influence, or sway the legal actions that are pending against these judges. Social Security disability benefits are an important lifeline for millions of American taxpayers with disabilities. It is critical that this lifeline is preserved. Our investigation is focused on identifying improvements to ensure that only those who meet the eligibility guidelines receive benefits so that the truly disabled can access this important lifeline and the American public can have confidence in the disability determinations process. Tomorrow, during Part II of this oversight hearing, we will hear testimony from Social Security officials on the efforts to enhance its abilities to oversee ALJs to ensure consistent and quality decisions. Our investigation has shown that Congress has not provided the funding the agency needs to fulfill its mandate to effectively monitor program integrity and save taxpayer dollars. We know continuing disability reviews, CDRs, yield a return of $9 for every $1 spent. Social Security Administration and the OIG have also established cooperative disability investigations programs to coordinate and collaborate on efforts to prevent, detect, and investigate fraud in Federal disability programs. Those efforts pay for themselves many times over. Yet for some reason Congress has refused to fully fund the Inspector General and the agency to carry out its program integrity efforts. I hope all of my colleagues would agree that given the results of various quality improvement measures and program integrity efforts we should ensure that the agency has sufficient funds to address alleged ALJ misconduct, review ALJ decisions for errors and policy compliance, and conduct all its scheduled continuing disability reviews and continue other program improvements. I look forward to hearing the testimony from today's witnesses as well as tomorrow's testimony from the Social Security Administration officials on improving the disability appeals process and how Congress can support and enhance these efforts. With that, I yield back. Mr. Lankford. And I would like to add that I also concur, this is not a judicial proceeding today, this is a congressional hearing. So this is not about trying to pull out additional information that may be used by the Social Security Administration in the days ahead on any actions they may take. Members will also have 7 days to submit any other opening statement they would like to put on the record as well. I would like to welcome our second panel of witnesses today. Mr. Harry C. Taylor II is an administrative law judge for the Social Security Administration, Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, in Charleston, West Virginia. Mr. Charles Bridges is an administrative law judge for the Social Security Administration, Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Mr. Charles Krafsur is an administrative law judge for the Social Security Administration, Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, in Kingsport, Tennessee. And Mr. James A. Burke is an administrative law judge for the Social Security Administration, Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Gentlemen, thank you for being here. Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses are sworn in before they testify. If you would please rise, raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Thank you. You may be seated. Let the record reflect the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. In order to allow time for discussion, I will ask each of you to limit your testimony to 5 minutes. Of course, your entire written statement will be made part of the record. I'd Like to recognize Mr. Taylor for an opening statement. STATEMENT OF HARRY C. TAYLOR II Judge Taylor. I'm Harry C. Taylor, the---- Mr. Lankford. Mr. Taylor, can I have you push the--there's a talk button right in front you. Apologize for that. Judge Taylor. I'm sorry. Mr. Lankford. No, that's fine. This is new for everybody on it. There's a little button that's in front of you. If you'll hit that when you talk and that will put your microphone on. When you finish, if you'll turn that off, and we'll make sure that we're not getting your side conversations as well. Mr. Taylor, you're recognized. Mr. Tierney. I'm Harry C. Taylor II. I'm a United States administrative law judge currently assigned to Charleston, West Virginia. I was asked to provide input concerning the role of the administrative law judge and how decisions are made. Basically, the ALJ is the third layer in the administrative process which a claimant must go through in order to apply for Social Security disability benefits. Additionally, it's the only level where the claimant has a right to a due process evidentiary hearing in order to present his or her case. The ALJ will conduct an evidentiary hearing wherein the claimant has certain due process rights to present evidence on his or her behalf, to cross-examine expert witnesses, to appeal an adverse decision, and to obtain counsel, as well as experts to assist in the presentation of his or her case. Due process involves giving the claimant every opportunity to prove his or her entitlement to benefits and perhaps to help him or her obtain evidence helpful in their case, if unrepresented. On the ALJ's part, due process involves being open minded until the evidentiary hearing and the record are closed. After the hearing is closed, the record is closed, the ALJ must make a written decision as to the claimant's entitlement to benefits or whether he or she should be denied. In so doing, the ALJ has help from clerical staff, paralegal and attorney writers, medical experts, and vocational experts. The ALJ must consider the facts of each case, the applicable agency regulations, and of course the applicable law. One's experience is also helpful in making an informed decision. A decision adverse to the claimant may be reviewed by the Appeals Council in Falls Church, Virginia. A decision adverse to the claimant that is affirmed by the Appeals Council may be appealed, too, and reviewed by the claimant's geographical Federal district court. If adverse again, the decision may be reviewed by the pertinent Federal appeals court. Although most appeals stop here, it's possible that the United States Supreme Court may review the adverse decision. And of course there's no restriction on a claimant filing again for benefits and going through the process again. In my case, I prefer to review a case assigned to me as early as possible in the process. This allows me to identify the issues in the case and make notes, both written and mental, to determine what is needed to complete the record and to determine the need for experts, such as medical, psychological, or vocational. I make a point to stay balanced and keep an open mind on each case until it's closed and ready for a decision. In making a decision as to disability, the Social Security ALJ must always use the sequential evaluation process as defined by Social Security regulations. This process involves a logical way of thinking for the ALJ who must make a decision as to disability. And the sequential evaluation process includes five steps. The first step is referred to as what we refer to as substantial gainful activity. Is the claimant engaging in substantial gainful activity? If the claimant is engaging in SGA, this is an automatic denial, and the process stops there. If the claimant is not engaging in SGA, the ALJ will then go on to step two. As to what constitutes SGA, it is a level which is changed every year. Second step involves determining whether the claimant has a, quote/unquote, ``severe impairment.'' A severe impairment is by definition one that has significant impact on one's life and which decreases a person's RFC or MRFC to perform SGA. If the claimant does not have a severe impairment, the claimant is found to be not disabled and the process stops there. If, however, a severe impairment is found, then the process goes to step three. Studies have shown, of course, that not a lot of claims are denied at this step. Step three involves a finding of whether the claimant's impairment or impairments meet one of our listed impairments in the CFRs, or whether the impairment/impairments in combination would equal any of our listed impairments. An ALJ may decide whether there is a meeting of a listing. Often, though, listed impairments are those medical or mental conditions deemed to be so bad by experts that those conditions meet the severity would be considered to be totally disabled and unable to work. If the claimant meets or equals the listing, the claimant is found disabled and the process stops there. If the claimant does not meet or equal the listings, the process goes to step 4. Step 4 involves whether a claimant can return to past relevant work, or PRW, as we call it. In other words, if a claimant's impairment is such that he or she can return to past relevant work, the claimant is denied benefits and the process stops there. If, however, a claimant's impairments are such that he or she is precluded from being able to perform past relevant work, then the process continues to step 5. Step 5 involves whether there is any other work which exists in significant numbers which the claimant can do despite his or her limitations. At this step, if the claimant cannot do past relevant work, the burden shifts, at step 5, shifts to the Commissioner to show that there are jobs that exist in significant numbers which the claimant can do despite his or her impairments. In its decision, the Fourth Circuit, of which West Virginia is part, has stated that vocational experts are necessary at step 5. I don't know about any other location, but if we're going to deny one at step 5 in West Virginia, we need a vocational witness at step 5. A hypothetical question to the VE will include all the claimant's limitations and impairments. If the VE finds no jobs, the process is complete and the claimant is found disabled at step 5. If the VE finds there are jobs which the claimant can do based upon his or her limitations, the VE will state what those jobs are, what the number of those jobs are in the national economy, and whether his or her testimony on those jobs is consistent with the Dictionary of Occupational Titles. The claimant's counsel is permitted to cross-examine the VE. If there are no jobs available and if the ALJ agrees with the vocational witness, the claimant is found not disabled at step 5. By regulation, the sequential evaluation process must be used in all cases involving disability. Certain cases can be decided at step 5 using our vocational rules, our so-called Grid Rules, which I'm sure the committee is aware of. Grid Rules are rules set forth in the CFRs wherein if a claim is limited to a certain RFC, have had a certain set of skills during their life, or are of a certain age, then the particular Grid Rule will dictate a finding of disabled. Mr. Lankford. Mr. Taylor, can you wrap up this part of it fairly quickly? Judge Taylor. With regard to my own bio, as humble as it is, I was born and raised in Wheeling, Ohio County, West Virginia, ranking second in my high school class. I went to West Virginia University, there graduating as an honor student. I received an academic scholarship to attend the George Washington University here in Washington, D.C. I spent a year in D.C. studying here. I got a master's. In between serving 5 years as a military officer, I was able to earn my law degree from the law school at West Virginia University and my doctorate of philosophy degree from the graduate school at West Virginia University. I've always been a person driven to work, with very few hobbies except those of my children. My dedication and attention has always been on my workdays, nights, and even weekends. I enjoy work. Even though I have always felt the need to work, I have never failed to include my family time in my thoughts and efforts. People would call me a workaholic. I believe this need to work came from the times in which I was raised. At the end of World War II, Americans knew that if they wanted to make something of their lives they had to work hard, get an education, and above all be a loyal American. This is how I was raised and this is how I live. I would like to make a note that when I was in private law practice, my background was in medical legal issues. I was largely involved in personal injury, workers' compensation, Social Security. And I have completed certain continuing education classes in those issues and have completed two 6-week classes in medical terminology. Mr. Lankford. Thank you, Mr. Taylor. [Prepared statement of Judge Taylor follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Lankford. Before we move on, we are obviously well aware that we have some storms in the area. There is flooding and everything else that is happening. Someone's phone is notifying them frequently. If that happens to be yours, if you could try to silence that as quick as you can when that goes off so that we do not enjoy the reminder every few seconds here that we are having storms in the area. Mr. Bridges, you're recognized. STATEMENT OF CHARLES BRIDGES Judge Bridges. Good morning, members of the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. My name is Charles Bridges. I am an administrative law judge for the Social Security Administration, Office of Disability and Review, located in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I want to start off by saying a hearing before the ALJ is de novo and impartial. This is required by the Federal Administrative Procedures Act, known as the APA. The ALJ has been granted independence to render decisions under the APA without agency interference and a decision is issued in his own signature on behalf of the Commissioner of SSA. This hearing is not, however, adversarial. The ALJ considers the full record, has access to medical, vocational, and psychological experts, as well as treating sources and any other sources he or she may deem necessary in order to render informed decisions. More importantly, the judge is given an opportunity to observe the demeanor and candor of witnesses and make credibility assessments. The decisions of the ALJs at this level are appealable to the SSA Appeals Council. The decision may be appealed directly to the United States District Court. The Appeals Council renders a post-decision review of a judge's decision. I have been recently reviewed with no adverse findings. At the hearing at the office level the HOCALJ is responsible for supervising and distribution of disability appeals cases to subordinate judges. However, HOCALJs do not physically perform this function. Since the electronic age, cases are distributed rotationally as far as practical by lower management officials called GS's. The GS's distribute those cases. There are exceptions to this process. The exceptions are factors that involve terminal illnesses of a claimant, military personnel injured in Active Duty, and also claimants who have dire need. The Group Supervisors are also responsible for the match- up, assembly, collection, organization, and preparation of the claimant's file for the judge to hear. This is called working up a file. Recently, I was referenced in a Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, CBS local affiliate television station which reported waste, fraud, and abuse in government. This report came inaccurate, false, and misleading numbers concerning my record as a judge and misconceptions concerning the Social Security disability and supplemental insurance program. I have been specifically mentioned in prior testimony before this committee by employees of the Social Security Administration. This Harrisburg CBS affiliate reported a figure of $4.6 billion dollars of taxpayers' money--how erroneous a statement was that--and was contributed to my record. The numbers were not verifiable, factually inaccurate, in my opinion an unfortunate example of irresponsible and sensationalist journalism. Further, significant points I wish to make, emphasize here, that at the conclusion of the Inspector General report in August 2008, pursuant to request of Honorable Michael R. McNulty, House of Representatives, Chairman, Subcommittee on Social Security, Committee Ways and Means, concerning ``Administrative Law Judge and Hearing Office Performance,'' called as Congressional Response Report #A-O7-O8-28094, which was dated August 8, 2008. That report provided significant review of the roles of the poor performance of administrative law judges with SSA. The central problem addressed by this Congressional report was to reduce the backlog of SSA cases. Congressional Report #A-07-08-29094 concluded in its executive summary the following things. SSA was facing the highest number of pending cases, highest average of cases of processing time, ever since the inception of the disability program. As of April of 2008, there were over 755,000 cases awaiting decisions at the hearing levels. Furthermore, in fiscal 2008, ALJ processing time averaged 505 days in April 2008. While the average number of cases processed for ALJ has increased from fiscal year 2005 to fiscal year 2007, some ALJs continue to process cases at levels below agency expectations to increase ALJ productivity. Congressional Report, I repeat, #A-07-08-29094 further concluded: Our interviews disclosed that ALJs have varying levels of productivity due to factors such as motivation, number one, and work ethic. In fact, our interviews with RCALJs, regional chief administrative law judges, disclosed that motivation, number one, and work ethic were one of the main factors that contributed to higher or lower productivity of ALJs. The reference of the 2008 congressional response report is supportive of two essential points that I want to make here today. The first point is there are many factors affecting the productivity of SSA administrative judges. However, the 2008 congressional report cited motivation and work ethic as the main factors in this area. A highly productive judge would necessarily have more cases on which a sample may be taken. I have been a highly productive judge in the Social Security Administration because of my motivation and work ethic. According to statistics produced by administrative law judges and hearing office performance audit of 2007 of the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, office, under supervision myself, we had an average processing time of 265 days. This processing time was the best SSA time in the United States. And, in fact, this fact placed the Harrisburg office as one of the most well run offices during my tenure at HOCALJ. The second point I wish to make, it is clearly misleading and factually inaccurate to suggest that there is or should be a numerical basis on which to compare administrative law judges on their outcomes on the adjudication and the disposition of Social Security appeals. When the public hears statements that a judge approves X percentage of cases assigned to him or reverses a denial of benefits X percent of the time, these figures are misleading to the public. They are simply contrary to the law, in violation of the Federal Administrative Procedures Act and United States Constitution for an administrative law judge to make an adjudication of the entitlement to Social Security benefits on the basis of any factors that are outside the record of that particular case. As noted, judges apply the facts to the law and the record before him or her and concludes whether or not that claimant meets the legal requirements of disability. Any judge who considers factors outside the record of that case would commit, in my opinion, a gross violation of the rights of that claimant. When any person uses a numerical figure which to compare judges and the outcomes, that suggests an impermissible and unlawful use of quotas, q-u-o-t-a-s, quotas. In conclusion, after the claimant is successful in receiving an award of benefits, there is a process in place and funded for a post-audit review to determine if those conditions resulted in award still exist. It was apparent that post-audit reviews were not being conducted. That is an issue not of the ALJ's concern. That is agency issue and a powers--a separation of powers issue to be concerned with that. That's why a preposterous figure of $4.6 billion was tossed out in my particular case because there evidently and could not have been any post-audit reviews. Because if you consider one's lifetime, starting about 25 to go up to about 80, and figuring some figure, I don't know how it could be determined $300,000, this is preposterous. We hear no cases, set of cases that has these kind of specific parameters. There are too many changed circumstances by which we cannot make a determination that no one fits that particular parameter at all. And all I can say is that those two factors come into place, work ethic and motivation. Without those--those are the driving factors. And that was found by this Congress--not this Congress, but a previous Congress in their report. And this was what they said was the factors that are motivating the judges to do what they do. And I have been reviewed. And the APA gives the administrative law judge the independence, the independence to make those decisions. That's why we see those disparity. But, evidently, the Congress decided when it passed the APA that we would have these disparities, that those disparities was not outweighed by the public good of providing good service to the public--to the public. Thank you, distinguished committee, for your time and my testimony. Mr. Lankford. Thank you, Mr. Bridges. [Prepared statement of Judge Bridges follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Lankford. Mr. Krafsur. And by the way, I don't know who still has that phone going off, but if we could identify it somewhere. Judge Bridges. I am the guilty party. I have done something about it. Mr. Lankford. Thank you. Mr. Krafsur. STATEMENT OF GERALD I. KRAFSUR Judge Krafsur. Good morning. I am here because of a friendly subpoena kindly issued by this committee. I am here also to report to this committee and the Congress of the United States that SSA, and in particular ODAR, has seriously interfered with my First and Fifth Amendment rights. The SSA has been harassing me with a series of Merit System Protection Board disciplinary complaints, the first of which has been recently dismissed. I will be filing a complaint with the Office of Special Counsel in this matter for retaliation and whistleblowing through my attorney, Charlton R. DeVault. My name is Gerald I. Krafsur. I am an administrative law judge assigned to the Social Security Administration position in Kingsport, Tennessee, ODAR office. I want to give you my adult background. I served in United States Army. Thereafter, I graduated from Babson Institute, now known as Babson College, in Wellesley, Massachusetts, in June of 1959, with a bachelor of science degree in business administration. In May 1962, I received my master's degree in business administration from Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, where I assisted faculty in Teaching Management Line and Staff. In 1962, I began my employment with the Ford Division Ford Motor Company, in its Product Planning Office and varied other company activities. In 1968, I was encouraged by Ford executives to apply for law school. In June 1971, I was awarded a doctorate degree in jurisprudence from Wayne State University. Shortly thereafter, I entered the practice of law, during which I was co-counsel on several major cases, among those Bass v. Spitz in the Wayne County Circuit Court, Detroit, Michigan, and Michael Baden v. Mayor Edward Koch, in the Eastern Federal District in New York. After 20 years of litigation in the private sector, I was awarded the opportunity to serve as an administrative law judge. On July 18th, 1991, I was officially appointed administrative law judge, the Office of Appeals, Social Security Administration, Department of Health and Human Services, assigned to the OHA office in Detroit, Michigan. In the mid-1990s, the Social Security Administration Office of Hearings and Appeals, now known as ODAR, directly came under control of SSA. Thereafter, the functions of line and staff began to merge contrary to sound management practice. I will now describe what was and has always been since July 18, 1991, my constitutional duties as administrative law judge. During ALJ training in July and August of 1991, we were taught what is commonly known as the three hats. The first hat is my responsibility to perform my constitutional duties, uphold the Constitution of the United States, administer the Federal rules and regulations as they apply to SSA, and administer SSA rules and regulations together with Federal court decisions as they apply to SSA cases and conduct fair and impartial hearings. Second hat. This hat involves protection of claimants' rights before, during, and after their application for disability benefits. This is performed in a nonadversary formal hearing by matching claimant testimony with medical and vocational testing records presented by representatives and/or individual claimants. Third hat. To represent the best interests of the Social Security Administration to protect the integrity of the Trust Fund. That hat is why I believe I was originally requested to appear before this committee. SSA has never provided me with evidence of disability that I could personally verify. I am restricted from deposing any and all individuals who generated the records provided me. ODAR hearings are the only forum where one side presents evidence and the other side, namely the SSA, fails to provide the same. In order to overcome the deficiency, I have requested SSA to perform a series of medical, psychological, and psychiatric tests on various claimants. I realize the cost of this may be expensive. If these functions cannot be completed as described, then SSA should enable me to depose any and all parties who generate any document which is presented to me in the formal hearing. SSA may believe written interrogatories are effective, but any litigator knows cross-examination under oath and live testimony are critical. I believe if I had the authority as outlined, my favorable decisions versus unfavorable as a percentage would be diminished. Now I would like Congress to investigate the mismanagement and misconduct of SSA officials in authorizing secret job evaluations in violation of the Administrative Procedures Act by conducting what is known as post-effectuation reviews of final decisions. SSA is using this secret process to listen to tapes and analyze decisions in violation of the Privacy Act and the APA. The SSA then uses the information to seek removal of ALJs from service. Before closing, I have three recommendations. First, ODAR be physically separated from SSA and function independently with a separate budget. Secondly, have all ALJs present and in the future attend the National Judicial College to be taught the three hats. The college would be required to seek input by SSA and other organizations necessary to undertake the task as mandated by Congress and watched over by an independent body. Thirdly, on record reviews by the Appeals Council of favorable decisions should be abolished and replaced by a direct appeal to the appropriate Federal district court prevent SSA from getting a second bite of the apple. Having heard thousands of disability cases, I have never had any case returned by the Appeals Council because the claimant was not disabled. In closing, I would like to thank each and every one of you for my kind invitation. Mr. Lankford. Thank you, Mr. Krafsur. [Prepared statement of Judge Krafsur follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Lankford. Mr. Burke. STATEMENT OF JAMES A. BURKE Judge Burke. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee,colleagues, first of all, I want to congratulate my colleagues for their excellent opening statements. I am Judge Jim Burke, from Albuquerque, New Mexico. First and foremost, I want to object to the fact that we are here following Senator Coburn excoriating a dishonest situation in Huntington, West Virginia. As Mr. Cummings mentioned, it's not right to paint us with the same broad brush following a case like that. If I were in court representing a client behind a terrible case like that, I would get a continuance so it wouldn't spill over on us. So I don't want anybody in this committee putting us together with that situation in Huntington. My personal background is I was born on Welfare Island in New York City in 1943. My father was James Joseph Burke, he was the son of Irish immigrants. He was killed in action in March of 1945 when my sister and I were babies. My mother, Madeleine Burke, raised us with her hard work, veterans' benefits, and Social Security benefits. So we know how important those benefits are. I got to go to a municipal college in New York, Hunter College in the Bronx. After I graduated, I went into the Army. I served in the armored division in--the armored brigade in West Berlin. And when I got out, I applied to Hastings College of Law in 1968 and got my law degree in 1972. I graduated with honors, top 10 percent. I wrote a Law Review article about suing the United States Government by individual citizens. In my practice, I represented people in employment--working people--in employment litigation, workers' compensation, insurance problems, personal injury, and Social Security disability. As part of that representation, I learned the close-up dynamics of the legal practice concerning injuries and disease, including scrutinizing medical records under the pressure of a busy and contentious plaintiffs' practice. I also learned of the dynamics that illness and injury and mere unemployment have on individuals and their families. That's a breadth of experience that many ALJs don't have. I was appointed in July 2004--next month is my 10-year anniversary-- during the Bush Administration. I served in Spokane and now in the Albuquerque office. But I am comfortable in the 10 years of my judgeship and in the 30 years of my practice in quickly and with particularity evaluating claimants' testimony, witness statements, and medical records as my high pressure trial practice trained me for in New Mexico. Now, we have heard a lot about people getting benefits when they weren't entitled to that. But we see a lot of benefits being denied below, and I am happy to make decisions reversing that process. One egregious case was a gentleman who lost his leg and an eye to a Viet Cong booby trap and was told that he was too fat and if he lost some weight he wouldn't have to take off his artificial leg during the daytime. I was very, very honored to be involved in that case. And that is not fraud, but it certainly does speak to the other side of your concern about the integrity of the program. I think the other gentlemen have done a very good job of informing you about the Social Security procedure. And I have got a couple of seconds left. I would like to introduce my daughter, Johanna Conroy. She is a 9/11 survivor, and she has been with the Office of Emergency Management and in that area since 9/12. And I am very happy to have her come down from New York to give us some support. Thank you. Mr. Lankford. Thank you. [Prepared statement of Judge Burke follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Lankford. And thank you to all of you for being here. I will try to honor the 5-minute clock time for our questions, make sure that all of us have the opportunity to be able to ask questions today. And then we will have a second round if time permits as well to be able to go through that, and I will try take the lead on that. Judge Taylor, let me start with this. You did a good outline of the sequential evaluation process on this. I think that some of the questions that we have, because we interact with individuals that met the qualifications for disability, but when we interact with them don't see the same sequential process to be there. Three years ago I had the opportunity to be able to interact with a gentleman at an event. He was very active, he was very involved. He was asking me questions about Social Security. I asked him if he was on Social Security disability. He told me yes. He was about 26 years old. He was very engaged in what was happening that day. And he told me he was on ADHD medication, so he was on Social Security disability for, I assume, for life on that. So as we interact with individuals like that, the question rises up immediately, how did they not meet the--all these severe impediment, the listings, the past relevant work, any other work that they can do in the economy becomes a challenge for many of us that interact with people as well as individuals that we interact with at home. So the challenge is, as you work through this vocational grid, how much pertinence do you put on this fifth one, they can't do any other work in the economy? Judge Taylor. Every step in the process is important. Most of our cases are ended up being decided at step 5. At least I think back in West Virginia, back in the Fourth Circuit, I think most are. I remember when I was in private law practice, the first case, the first Social Security case that I ever---- Mr. Lankford. By the way, I hate to interrupt you, but keep your answers short because we are going to try to keep to this 5-minute clock. Judge Taylor. Okay. We try to analyze the evidence as best we can. I use my background in medical terminology to try to determine what the doctors are saying. But if you have a claimant who is a young man like you mentioned, he might have diabetes. And if he has diabetes, he might have diabetic retinopathy. If he has diabetic retinopathy, he might be going to Johns Hopkins clinic to get laser treatments for his eyes. If he's getting laser treatments for his eyes, he might be under a 5-pound weight-lifting restriction. Mr. Lankford. Okay. I understand all that, except for my aunt, who has been in a wheelchair for 35 years, who lost her right leg to cancer, who is a diabetic, who is also blind in one eye, has worked as a receptionist for 35 years. She just retired at 69 last year. Excuse me for saying a lady's age out loud. That makes sense in that sense except for the transition to work. The requirement is any other work in the economy. And that is the grand challenge that a lot of us face. And there's a lot of individuals that have capability, they have skills, they have assets to be able to give much to their family and the economy, they seem to be slipping through this. Mr. Taylor, have you received some awards of excellence over the past couple of years? You have submitted to our staff some of those awards. Judge Taylor. Sir, I did include those. The agency has got to be very careful in doing that. Judges are not supposed to accept awards. We are not supposed to be allowed to work overtime. We are not allowed a lot of things. But on those particular occasions, yes, I got a few letters. Mr. Lankford. It seemed that the letters and awards seemed to be about either processing time or disposition of cases or the number of cases. That seems to be what the agency was affirming, was the number of cases. Was that consistent for you as well? Judge Taylor. Yes, sir. Mr. Lankford. Mr. Bridges, can I ask you a question as well? I went through some of the focused review on some of your cases. As I walked through them, a couple of them popped out to me. This one in particular. This one said, the bench decision check list stated--I'm going to leave the names out on this-- filled out an employability assessment form September 2011 advising the claimant was temporarily disabled due to degeneration of his lumbar. However, no such medical opinion evidence or employability assessment form was actually in the record. Neither the ALJ nor the representative asked the claimant any questions regarding his impairments. Rather, the ALJ asked the representative whether the claimant had a gait and had difficulty walking, which the representative answered in the affirmative, and then was actually, that person was found there. Have you had moments that you have not seen medical evidence in the file, but you have interacted with someone and made a judgment call in medical history, though there was not a medical record in the file? Judge Bridges. Well, it's sometimes difficult to match up, that you may not see it at that particular time, but that evidence constantly flows back and forth. What I think needs to be done is that there needs to be a better system of matching up evidence, the flow of evidence to the file, because many times evidence, particularly with the new electronic age, evidence is not coming till after proceedings or you don't get it before or other times, but sometimes you do get it, you get it in---- Mr. Lankford. So let me just ask this because we are about to run out of time. So you don't have all the evidence at the time of the decision-making time, or the time of the actual hearing. How do we actually compel that? Because you don't need to make a decision until you actually have all the evidence to be able to gather that. Or you're making a judgement call on something you don't have medical evidence in front of you. Judge Bridges. Well, sometimes you are--in order to expedite cases, you are--you know that the evidence is there. The attorney cite to the evidence or he will try to get the evidence or I will get the evidence to you. But what we do many times, it's very difficult because of the fast flowing of information. There needs to be better cutoff times, times set for the receipt of evidence, and that comes into the file. I can't state specifically as to this case what happened. But the thing is that evidence should be there when I look at it. If it is a bench decision, bench decisions were approved by the Social Security Administration as a way of cutting down the backlog for judicial economy and efficiency and that is done at a hearing. A bench decision means bench. It is a decision that is done over the bench, which you conduct a trial and all the legal requirements are there when you make the decision. Mr. Lankford. Thank you, Mr. Bridges. Judge Bridges. I am saying it must have been there or I can't recall every specific case. But we do look for that particular evidence. And sometimes the reviewing group make mistakes as well. Mr. Lankford. I understand. I understand. I didn't mean to cut you off because I want to pass this on. Just the concern is, is that the people that were before you have made a decision on this. When it came to you at times it seems like some of the medical evidence wasn't there, whatever it may be that was coming is not in a file, and you have a 93 to 95 percent overturn rate. And that is the concern. Let me pass this on to Mr. Cummings. Recognize Mr. Cummings. Judge Bridges. Well, can I say, I can't say specifically to every case because we hear a lot of cases. But what I am saying is that we do--I do look at the evidence. And I go through--I work very hard and I view the evidence when I do it. Now, as I said before, the Administrative Procedures Act, each individual case is peculiar to that person. And what we do is we make a very diligent and careful effort to make sure that that person gets due process. We don't put everybody into one category and say that everybody---- Mr. Lankford. I understand. Judge Bridges. As I said before, that could be a quota. But we decide that, well, only 30 percent of the people should get disability. Each and every individual is entitled to his own disposition of his case. Mr. Lankford. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you for just a moment because I want to continue to pass this on. We understand that very well. We're just trying to find out today how we are following the process that is stated by SSA. Judge Bridges. Well, I just want---- Mr. Lankford. Sir, sir, sir, hold on. You will have plenty of moments to be able to respond. I want to be able to make sure I honor everyone's time on the dais. Mr. Cummings is recognized. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Burke, I listened to all the testimony very carefully. And we face a problem here, and I think--I'm asking you because I could--I think I need to ask you this because you came at the end. Do you agree that, I mean, that at some point--we got a problem. We want judges to have independence, which they should have. But do you agree that at some point questions should arise if procedures are not being properly followed by those judges? Because we want equal protection under the law, we want due process for all people. I mean, are you there? Judge Burke. Mr. Cummings? Mr. Cummings. Yes. Judge Burke. Yes. Mr. Cummings. If you can make your answer as brief as you can. I know it's a tough question. Judge Burke. Procedures, as a matter of law and procedures, they can be reviewed by the agency. But the principle of judicial independence which we have under the Administrative Procedure Act and of which I was assured when I left my practice to come to this job is very important. There are countries south of our border where the society has lost faith in their judges because they are seen to be under the thumb of the government. Now, you might get some bad choices when you hire an ALJ and want to regret it. But it is the best system that we can devise, just like democracy in general. It doesn't always work, but there is nothing better. If you---- Mr. Cummings. But would you that agree that you have got to have some procedures and those procedures should be followed? I mean, I just was listening to Mr. Bridges and I was just--it sounded like he was saying that there is evidence that may come in later after the hearing that you then might consider. I mean, is that---- Judge Burke. Sure, yes. Mr. Cummings. So that happens? Judge Burke. Yes. Mr. Cummings. All right. Judge Krafsur, I want to thank you for being here. I think you know that you were invited today because you have a record of awarding disability benefits over 90 percent of the time. Have you ever been told by the Social Security Administration the way you make disability determination decisions does not comply with agency policy? Judge Krafsur. Yes. Mr. Cummings. And what did you--what did they tell you? Judge Krafsur. They just arbitrarily said that. Didn't explain why they disagree with it. They just don't agree with it. And if you see this form here, this is the form that I fill out and review every case before me. It's right here. It has 186 different ailments on it. I have--and you see marked in yellow just---- Mr. Cummings. What is that form? Judge Krafsur. This is a form that I use when I---- Mr. Cummings. This is your personal form? Judge Krafsur. This is a personal form. Mr. Cummings. Okay. This is not something that was put out by the Social Security Administration? Judge Krafsur. That is correct. Mr. Cummings. All right. Well, let me go on. Now, at the present time, you are subject to disciplinary action, are you not? Judge Krafsur. That's correct. Mr. Cummings. And, Judge, we have an agency's complaint against you, which says this: ``Respondent conducts hearings and makes decisions in accordance with his own theories rather than the process required by the agency.'' Is that true? And do you have your own theories for awarding benefits? Judge Krafsur. No, sir, I don't have that at all. Mr. Cummings. All right. Judge Krafsur. I use--there is something called diagnosis produces this illness. I use what is known--same thing. I call it cause and effect. Mr. Cummings. Okay. So you're saying you do follow procedure. Judge Krafsur. Exactly. Mr. Cummings. Okay. And if you followed the agency--let me ask you this. Let me read again from the complaint. It says that during a hearing in 2011 you said this: ``Every certifying nurse assistant I ever had had the same thing you have. They are all female. They are all fibromyalgia, or what I call post- traumatic stress syndrome, 100 percent of them because of what happened as a child.'' Did you say that? Judge Krafsur. Well, what basically happens, these people are nervous when they appear before me. So to make them more relaxed, I told them that. - that's my evidence. I have 5,000 or 6,000 women, some of them are CNAs who are before me, every one, fibromyalgia, has been caused by some post-traumatic stress syndrome. Mr. Cummings. So you went on to say--let me make sure we get the whole picture in here--at another hearing, you said this: ``One hundred percent of certified nurse assistants have been abused. Anyone that is a CNA has automatically been abused.'' Judge Krafsur. No. They took it out of context. And that's the people that appear before me, not everyone in the United States. Mr. Cummings. But 100 percent of the--you were saying that 100 percent of the certified nurse assistants that have appeared before you---- Judge Krafsur. That's correct. Mr. Cummings. --were abused. Judge Krafsur. That's correct. Mr. Cummings. You said that. Judge Krafsur. That's correct, because I have evidence to show it. I have testimony in every case I have had when CNAs were there to show what I just got through saying, what you just got through addressing. Mr. Cummings. Okay. I understand that the agency conducted what is called a focused review of some of your decisions. This was followed by a consultation with you and additional training. Were you instructed to stop using your own theory for determining medical impairments? Judge Krafsur. Not in those exact words. Mr. Cummings. Yeah. Yeah. Did they tell you to do it differently? Judge Krafsur. No. Mr. Cummings. They didn't say you could continue to do what you were doing, did they? Judge Krafsur. No, but they---- Mr. Cummings. Then what did they tell you? Judge Krafsur. They basically told me at the time that I couldn't use cause and effect. And I tried to explain to them it wasn't cause and effect, just my terminology to make it simple was diagnosis resulting in ailments. That's all it is. Same thing. Mr. Cummings. Did you stop applying your theory for determining medical impairment? Judge Krafsur. I never had a theory. It's not my theory. Mr. Cummings. And--okay. Judge Burke. Judge Burke. Yes, sir? Mr. Cummings. And then I am finished, Mr. Chairman. When you have a situation where a person has taken a lot of cases--it sounds like Coburn, Senator Coburn talked about the former head of Social Security kind of pushing cases in, we got to get these cases done--do you think that has an impact on--I mean, what impact did that have? Mr. Bridges seemed like he thought that it has some type of impact on getting judges to move cases along. And what impact does it have on the decisions, though, and the percentage of decisions? The thing I am also worried about is the chilling effect that these hearings will have on people who have legitimate problems. Judge Burke. Yes. Mr. Cummings. Go ahead. Judge Burke. You are absolutely right, Mr. Cummings. Until 2008, 2009, we were told that there was a backlog of 600,000 people for whom--who had been waiting longer than the tolerant waiting measures of Social Security. We were told to try to address that 600,000 people. Since 2011 or 2012, Chief Judge Bice advised us that we could only do 800 cases a year. What happened to those 600,000? They are still there. They are still waiting inexcusably long periods of time. In Albuquerque, 3 years between application and hearing is not unusual. And that's not right. I know you have to try to save the government money, but you should also look to the fact that hiring new--more ALJs with more support staff is one good way of not only addressing that problem, but also helping to support more uniformity in the ALJ corps. Mr. Cummings. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Lankford. Mr. Issa. Sorry. Mr. Mica. Mr. Mica. He has a bigger nose. Mr. Lankford. Yes. Mr. Mica. Thank you. First of all, let me ask a couple of questions in general. I guess you all get the same salary. How much are you earning? Mr. Taylor? Judge Taylor. I am not sure. Mr. Lankford. Microphone. Mr. Mica. What's your annual salary? Judge Taylor. I'm sorry. I am not sure what that is right now. Mr. Mica. Do you know, Mr. Bridges, what your salary is? Annual salary. Judge Bridges. One sixty-five. Mr. Mica. One sixty-five. About the same--Mr. Krafsur, do you get more because you have been on the bench longer? All the same? Judge Krafsur. All the same. Mr. Mica. Is it a lifetime appointment? Judge Taylor. Yes. Mr. Mica. Lifetime appointment. Judge Krafsur. Yes, it is. Until the MSPB reviews our cases and may remove us. Mr. Mica. Now, you are on suspension, Mr. Krafsur. Judge Krafsur. No, administrative leave. Mr. Mica. Administrative leave. You getting paid while you're on administrative leave? Judge Krafsur. That's correct. Mr. Mica. Okay. You're reviewed from time to time. How often? Is everyone reviewed the same? When was your last review, Mr. Taylor, your performance? Judge Taylor. I'm thinking within the last---- Mr. Mica. Focused review. When was that done? Judge Taylor. I'm thinking within the last 2 years, sir. Mr. Mica. Mr. Bridges? Judge Bridges. What are you talking about? Mr. Mica. Your focused review. Judge Bridges. Focused review. Mr. Mica. Yes. When they write you up. I've got some of the copies of---- Judge Bridges. Okay. I did receive a focused review in February that is a matter of litigation. Mr. Mica. Okay. But that was your last one. Yours was about a year and a half, 2 years ago? You get a copy of those when they are issued, right? Mr. Taylor, did you get one? Do you get to see them? Judge Taylor. I did not. Mr. Mica. Did you get to see yours, Mr. Bridges? Judge Bridges. I saw it, but I felt it didn't follow due process. Mr. Mica. And you have challenged that. Judge Bridges. Yes, I did, because I think I violated the Administrative Procedures Act. Mr. Mica. Mr. Krafsur, when did you have your last review? Judge Krafsur. I never had a review. Mr. Mica. What? Judge Krafsur. Never had a review. Mr. Mica. You have never had a focused review? Mr. Lankford. Mr. Krafsur, I'm sorry. Can you turn your microphone on? Judge Krafsur. I never had a review because it's against the Administrative Procedures Act, right, I have a code right here. We're exempt from these reviews. Mr. Mica. The other two just said they had a review. Have you had one, Mr. Burke? Judge Burke. I had a focused review offered. I did not accept or reject the criticisms. I know the law better than the staff people who did the focused review back in Falls Church. Mr. Mica. That really would be the only basis for somebody reviewing your performance, would that be correct? I don't know that much about the procedure. Is that right, Mr. Taylor? Judge Taylor. I think that would be right. Mr. Mica. And, Mr. Bridges, you agree? Judge Bridges. I disagree. I think that that is illegal act---- Mr. Mica. My question wasn't an evaluation of what kind of an act it was. It would be that is the only review that's conducted of your performance, right? You are not subject to election, you are not---- Judge Bridges. We're not---- Mr. Mica. How could you be removed? Impeached? Judge Bridges. We're not subject to review. Mr. Mica. How can you be removed? Does anyone---- Judge Bridges. Through the Administrative Procedures Act. But we're not subject to those kind of reviews. Mr. Mica. That's what they're going through with Mr. Krafsur. Judge Krafsur. Let me answer this. I can answer this. They have--they accused me, they filed a complaint with the MSPB. They actually have filed three complaints. Two have been dismissed. We are now on the third. We have a chance to answer. We have asked for discovery. Mr. Mica. But you just told me you didn't have any. Judge Krafsur. I'm talking--if you're talking about the background of my office doing that, no. But if it crossed the secret--the secret one--they do a secret one. Mr. Mica. Okay. Well, I have copies here of two reviews, your latest, March 7, 2014. Have you seen that? Judge Krafsur. No. Mr. Mica. Here's another one, November 22, 2011. So you have had these done? Judge Krafsur. I never saw those. Mr. Mica. And you've never seen these? Judge Krafsur. Correct. Mr. Mica. Well, again, we're here because it appears that you all have an extraordinary amount of approval of some of these disabilities claims that have previously, either one or two times, been rejected. You have a 99 percent approval rate; is that right, Judge Krafsur? Judge Krafsur. That's correct, and none of them have ever been reversed by the Appeals Council. Mr. Mica. And, Mr. Bridges, a part of the process, I think, is also you reviewing all the documentation, et cetera. Mr. Bridges, you had an overall allowance rate exceeding 95 percent, and you awarded benefits in cases without holding a hearing 9,000 times--or 7,000 times between 2005 and 2013. Did you want to comment on, again, your 95 percent approval rating overturning these awards? Judge Bridges. My comment is, I don't think that--there are too many variables for that to be acceptable. I would have to know a breakdown of what was considered and what it constitutes. As I said in the congressional---- Mr. Mica. But you didn't hold a hearing 7,000 times---- Judge Bridges. I'm not aware of that. And I certainly wasn't counting. What I do is I focus on specifically on the case that I deal with and make it the right decision. Mr. Mica. But we did, and we have questions about 7,000 times overturning these without holding a hearing. Judge Bridges. I--I---- Mr. Mica. It appears to be---- Judge Bridges. I'm not aware of that. Mr. Mica. Well, that's what this hearing is doing is making the committee and public aware of your performance. Judge Bridges. Well, I'm not--that--I dispute that because I'm not aware of--I was not counting times that we're holding hearings. I was concentrating on the person who I was making a determination of. Mr. Mica. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Lankford. [Presiding.] Ms. Speier. Ms. Speier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, gentlemen, for appearing today. Mr. Taylor, let me ask you a few questions. Is it true that on February 20, 2009, while you were presiding over a hearing, you fell asleep? Judge Taylor. No, ma'am. Mr. Lankford. Microphone, please. Judge Taylor. No, ma'am. Ms. Speier. No. It appears that you were reprimanded by the Chief Administrative Law Judge, Jasper Bede, for sleeping while on duty. Is that true? Judge Taylor. That's been several years ago. Ms. Speier. Well, you were reprimanded? Judge Taylor. Not for that, no, ma'am. Ms. Speier. So I have the hearing transcript here. ``Hearing begins at 10:06. At 10:23, attorney is questioning the claimant. During claimant's testimony, snoring is heard in the background.'' Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Ms. Speier. ``Attorney: I just want to put on the record''--this is at 10:24--``that it appears as though the administrative law judge is sleeping at the moment.'' Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Ms. Speier. ``No response. The ALJ apparently continues sleeping. Attorney: I think--do you have anything else you need to say because I'd like to call the other witness at this time? Claimant says he has nothing else to say. Attorney then directs claimant to move to another seat and says, I will call Mr. Temple. Approximately 40 to 45 seconds of silence as attorney leaves the room to get witness. ALJ does not speak and is apparently sleeping. No sound is heard until attorney brings witness into the room. 10:25 some banging is heard and sound of someone breathing or sighing. 10:25, Judge, I think we need to swear in a new witness.'' Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Ms. Speier. All of that transpired, correct? Judge Taylor. Ma'am, I don't recall the specifics of that hearing. Ms. Speier. All right. You know, it's one on which you've been reprimanded, and there's an action right now to suspend you because of that, and you don't remember it? Judge Taylor. I don't remember that specific date. Ms. Speier. Well, all right. Okay. Let's forget the date. Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Ms. Speier. Have you ever slept on the job? Judge Taylor. Some years ago with my medication, yes. Ms. Speier. All right. And what kind of medication were you on? Judge Taylor. I was on some--the effects of some medication that I was using to make sure that I got enough sleep at night, and it was keeping me drowsy in the morning. Ms. Speier. Now, on September 13 of 2010, you made a statement to a Charleston head office employee, Richard Triplett, regarding another employee within the Charleston office, Christine Boone, and to the effect you said, Isn't she a looker? Is that correct? Judge Taylor. No, ma'am, I did not. Ms. Speier. You didn't say that? You're under oath. You appreciate that? Judge Taylor. I understand, ma'am, and I do know that. Ms. Speier. On September 13, you made a statement again to employee Richard Triplett about Christine Boone to the effect, Don't worry, she will keep her hands to herself, she's married. You don't recall that either? Judge Taylor. Ma'am, not only do I not recall it, I didn't make it. Ms. Speier. And then on that same date you said again to Mr. Triplett, She's a hot one. And you have no recollection of that either? Judge Taylor. Not only do I have no recollection, I didn't say it. Ms. Speier. And you never made a nonverbal gesture of thumbs up to Mr. Triplett regarding Ms. Boone? Judge Taylor. No, ma'am. Ms. Speier. And you've never used your hands to make a clawing, catlike gesture towards Ms. Boone? Judge Taylor. No, ma'am. Ms. Speier. So everyone is writing falsehoods about you, it appears. All right. Let's move on. Between 2005 and 2013, you completed more than 8,000 decisions with an average award rate of 93.8 percent. Almost 6,000 of these decisions were on-the- record decisions---- Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Ms. Speier. --decisions in which the judge decides not to hold a hearing. Can you explain the high number on-the-record decisions you've completed? I mean, that's virtually three- quarters of the cases. You don't need to have a hearing? Judge Taylor. Ma'am, in the year 2002---- Ms. Speier. I'm not asking about 2002. I'm asking about 2005 to 2013. And let's restrict ourselves to a discussion of those 8,000 decisions and the fact that 6,000 of them were made on the record. Judge Taylor. The first two hearing office chief judges during that period of time approached me about whether I would be willing to take some cases off the docket, look at those cases to determine whether they could be done on the record in order to meet our office productivity goals. I indicated that I would do that. From that period of time up until last year, I would receive lists of cases from our hearing office staff indicating a particular claimant, indicating a particular Social Security number. I would then review the case to determine whether it could be done on the record. Ms. Speier. But three-quarters of the cases you handled between those dates, three-quarters of them were on the record. You never had a hearing. I mean, I can't imagine that in three- quarters of the cases coming before you, you don't find compelling evidence or questions that would require a hearing. Because the reason why many ALJs say their relevance is so important is because the first two hearings are done without the benefit of spending any eyeball-to-eyeball time with the claimant, but in three-quarters of your cases, you never sat down with the claimant. You never had a hearing. Judge Taylor. If that's what the statistics show. It's going to depend upon the case--upon the specifics of each case to determine whether it could be done on the record. Ms. Speier. Mr. Chairman, I know my time has expired, but if I could just ask one more question. On average, how many pages are there in a file for a claimant? Judge Taylor. There are some of them that are quite lengthy; there are some of them that don't have very many pages at all. Ms. Speier. Well, but by the time they get to an ALJ, they've got lots more paper than they had when they were first reviewed by the first Social Security official and then the second Social Security official. Judge Taylor. It's possible. Ms. Speier. It's possible. It's more than possible. It has to be because there's going to be more documentation, correct? Judge Taylor. Yes. Ms. Speier. So give me--are we talking about 300 pages of documents? Judge Taylor. Probably not that many. Ms. Speier. Two hundred? Judge Taylor. Could be. Ms. Speier. So on average, if you're looking through 4 cases a day, that means you're looking through 800 pages a day and doing it in a timely and thorough fashion? Judge Taylor. Yes, ma'am. Ms. Speier. All right. I yield back. Mr. Lankford. Mr. Gowdy. Mr. Gowdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Judge Krafsur, I'm going to read you a quote, and you tell me whether or not you know who said this, okay? ``A hundred percent of the women at call centers have been abused. It's an atmosphere of abuse. Any time we see a call center person, female, all have been abused.'' Do you know who said that, Judge? Judge Krafsur. I did, but it was taken out of context. Mr. Lankford. Sir, your microphone. Can you repeat that, sir? Judge Krafsur. Yes. Mr. Gowdy. Well, you said that was taken out of context. Well, let's put that in context, Judge. Did somebody testify to that at a lower level? Was that in the record? Judge Krafsur. No, sir. That was my experience. Mr. Gowdy. Did you rely on a learned treatise? You made a point of saying in your opening statement how much respect you pay to the Federal Rules and the Constitution. Was that a learned treatise you relied upon, Judge? Judge Krafsur. That was my experience over 20 years. Mr. Gowdy. So you made yourself a witness even though the Federal Rules are very clear that judges are not witnesses; is that what your testimony is, Judge? Judge Krafsur. That was my opinion, not---- Mr. Gowdy. ``A hundred percent of female employees at call centers have been abused.'' Judge Krafsur. I didn't say that. A hundred percent of the people that came before me have been abused. Mr. Gowdy. And you relied on no learned treatise, no testimony at a lower level, just your innate sense of medicine? Judge Krafsur. No. That's been my experience having hearings over 20 years. Mr. Gowdy. Well, let me ask you about another one of your experiences, Judge. I want to read you another quote and ask you whether or not you recognize who said this, okay? Judge Krafsur. Uh-huh. Mr. Gowdy. ``How did your family discipline you? Did they hit you on the butt? I'm starting to do some analysis. It's starting to be when women are hit at an early age, they start developing problems in their twenties, late teens and twenties. My ex-wife told me about this. There's something in a girl that's a sexual thing. It arouses certain things.'' Did you say that, Judge? Judge Krafsur. Yes, I did, based upon---- Mr. Gowdy. Did you rely upon a learned treatise in reaching that determination? Judge Krafsur. No, I relied on---- Mr. Gowdy. Did you rely on something at a lower level? A hearing? A witness testified to that? Judge Krafsur. No, I relied on my experience hearing cases over 20 years. Mr. Gowdy. Judge, I hasten to add, because you made a point of saying in your opening statement that your first responsibility is to the Constitution and the Federal Rules of Evidence, are you aware that judges can't be witnesses? Are you familiar with that, Judge? Judge Krafsur. I don't consider myself a witness. Mr. Gowdy. You just testified to your own personal experience. If that's not a witness, what is it? Judge Krafsur. That's a personal opinion. Mr. Gowdy. Judges can't express personal opinions either. That's why we have something called experts. Judge Krafsur. That's why---- Mr. Gowdy. Did an expert testify to that, Judge? Judge Krafsur. That's called a First Amendment right. Mr. Gowdy. You're considered--so you have a First Amendment right to say whatever the hell you want in a hearing; is that what you're saying? Judge Krafsur. No, sir. Mr. Gowdy. And you can rely upon that when you're spending taxpayer money? Judge Krafsur. No, sir. But that's an isolated case. You-- -- Mr. Gowdy. Well, it can't be an isolated case. I just cited two, and my colleagues cited others. Judge Krafsur. Yeah. Yeah, but you're taking isolated cases. I've had---- Mr. Gowdy. Well, let's go a little broader than that, Judge. What is your reversal rate of the hearing officer? Is it in excess of 90 percent? Judge Krafsur. Yes, it's based upon testimony given---- Mr. Gowdy. All right. And it has to be adjudicated twice before it gets to you, right? Judge Krafsur. That's correct. Mr. Gowdy. And only if it's denied does it get to you. So 90 percent of the time the people under you are wrong. Judge Krafsur. No. I want to be able to cross examine them---- Mr. Gowdy. Well, it has to be or you wouldn't be reversing them. They've denied benefits, Judge, and you've reversed their denial. That means that you're hiring some really dumb people to be hearing officers because they're wrong 90 percent of the time. Judge Krafsur. No, sir. I want to be able to cross examine the people from Social Security---- Mr. Gowdy. I'm glad you mentioned cross examination. I can't tell you how glad I am. Judge Krafsur. Yeah. Mr. Gowdy. Because in every other court proceeding, there is someone cross examining the witnesses, but it's not a judge. It's an attorney. And that's true in misdemeanor crimes; that's true in felony crimes; that's true in civil cases. So what I think you need, Judge, is I think you need an advocate and an attorney for the taxpayer in the hearing room, because I don't want you cross examining witnesses. If you really think that paddling a child leads to sexual issues, I don't want you doing the cross examination. And if you really think that 100 percent of CNAs have been abused and 100 percent of females in call centers have been abused, I don't want you doing the cross examination, Judge. Judge Krafsur. Sir, we wear three hats. One hat is a Social Security hat; the other hat is the claimant's hat; the other hat is my--is the Social Security hat. Mr. Gowdy. Where's the expert witness hat? You just said you were an expert witness. Judge Krafsur. We have an adversary system, and I have the right---- Mr. Gowdy. It's not an adversary system. There's no advocate for the taxpayer that's in the courtroom. Judge Krafsur. We have a nonadversary system, sir. It's a nonadversary system, and I have to wear three hats. Mr. Gowdy. It can't be too adversarial, or you would not reverse the hearing officer 90 percent of the time. And some of your colleagues, 99 percent of the time they reverse a hearing officer. And we mistakenly, Judge, thought it was because you were eyeballing the witnesses so you could assess credibility, but we learn from your colleague Mr. Taylor that that's not even true. You don't even have a hearing. You just do it on the paper. Judge Krafsur. Sir, it's not eyeballing the witness. I take testimony. I've had here this sheet---- Mr. Gowdy. And who does the cross examination? Judge Krafsur. It has 186 analysts on it. Mr. Gowdy. And who does--well, that's your document. Mr. Cummings just exposed that that's your document. Judge Krafsur. No, no. I'm--the attorney also provides one for me. Mr. Gowdy. The attorney for whom? Judge Krafsur. For the claimant. Mr. Gowdy. That's my point. There is no attorney for the taxpayer. We're going broke--Mr. Chairman, I know I'm out of time, but I'm going to tell you a story from Spartanburg real quick. I had a judge call me--he's apolitical--and he said, I just sentenced someone for crawling under people's houses and stealing their copper. And he said, what really struck me as being unusual, Trey, is he is 100 percent disabled in the back. I want you to think about that, Judge, and I want you to think about one other thing, too. I went on a tour of something called a workability center where people with special needs value work enough that they go to work every single day. And there was one man who was confined to a wheelchair, had no use of his hands or legs, but his job was to encourage his fellow employees. There is inherent value in work, and one reason your backlog may be so big is because it's so damn easy to get benefits. Judge Krafsur. Not for me. Not for me. I hear every case. I see every person that's ever appeared before me. Every one. Mr. Gowdy. You reversed the hearing officer over 90 percent of the time, Judge. Ninety percent of the time, the person at the first level is wrong in your judgment, and you are citing your own version of medicine, 100 percent of the people are abused, that if you paddle a little girl she's going to wind up with sexual issues, despite the fact it's not in the record, Judge. Judge Krafsur. Well---- Mr. Gowdy. You may be a judge, but you're not God. Judge Krafsur. Let me explain to you, if I had this person in front of me that was down below, I could examine him on behalf of Social Security, and that would allow the claimant's---- Mr. Gowdy. Well, then why don't your colleagues have hearings? Why don't they do it on the paper? If it's that important to eyeball the witness and assess credibility and cross examine, why are you doing it on the paper? Judge Krafsur. That's what I said in my remarks here. We need--we need the ability to be able to have the witnesses who give any comment down below should be up here before me so I can examine them, and they can be cross examined by the---- Mr. Gowdy. I want them being cross examined by an advocate for the taxpayer, Your Honor, with all due respect, not a judge. Judge Krafsur. Well, then you need an adversary system, which we don't have today. Mr. Lankford. Mr. Horsford. Mr. Horsford. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to first start by saying that I know you and other members of this full committee, we serve on the subcommittee where we've had repeated hearings on this same issue. And while today's hearing is about getting some facts out, I think we need to be careful not to use the panel that's here before us today as the full representation of the administrative law judges in general, because to do so, I think, would be going against the publications that we have received in prior hearings. The Social Security Administration's publication, the national hearings decisional allowance and denial rates through fiscal year 2013 don't support or align with some of the testimony that we're hearing from a select group of panelists that appears the majority may have intended to only give one perspective of how the system is not working efficiently. And, Mr. Chairman, as I think I've indicated to you before, one of the reasons I asked to be on this committee is because I think we should be finding ways to reform government and to make it work more efficiently, but for some reason, this committee only focuses on the oversight function, and it never gets to the reform side. Where is the legislation? Where are the proposals to enact the change that's necessary so that we can improve the delivery of services to our constituents? I think ultimately, when I hear from my folks back home in Nevada, that's what they want. We can sit here and argue back and forth among ourselves. It doesn't fix anything. I think the Veterans Administration is a very clear indication of that. Mr. Lankford. Mr. Horsford, would you yield? We can hold your time. Sometime when we're offline on that, Ms. Speier and I can get a chance to lay out a whole series of things. We met with Social Security Administration ALJs and others to be able to develop the long list of how we actually reform the system. We've done some of that in hearings and the gathering of our fourth hearing and a lot of it offline as well, and we'd be glad to be able to share that with you, because you're exactly correct; it's not just a matter of exposing the problem, it's about solving it. I yield back. Mr. Horsford. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I respect that, and, again, I know, having served on the subcommittee with you and Ms. Speier as well as the ranking member on other topics, that we all together are concerned with certain aspects. But fundamentally for me, the Social Security Administration is about providing a vital mission to our constituents, and that's not being discussed here today. What I hear is a perspective by some of my colleagues on the other side who say that every person regardless of disability should be working. Well, that's just not the case, and we need to have a balanced perspective of what this process should really be about. So I want to ask each of the panel if you would tell me about the training that you receive and whether the training that has been offered by the SSA to address some of the compliance areas, the issues that have been identified, whether that has improved the management flow and focused an area for review based on the training that has been offered. Have each of you gone through training through the SSA, yes or no? Judge Krafsur. Yes. Judge Taylor. Yes. Mr. Horsford. And has that training addressed policy compliance issues? Judge Krafsur. No. Judge Taylor. Yes. Mr. Horsford. You say no? Judge Taylor. Yes. Mr. Lankford. Could the witnesses turn the microphones on to respond? Judge Krafsur. Excuse me, the answer is no. It just trained me to be a writer. To be a writer. I'm an ALJ. I had 6 weeks of training in 2013, and it had to do with how to write a decision, and it wasn't addressed about an ALJ--it wasn't addressed from ALJ, it was how to write a decision---- Mr. Horsford. Okay. Judge Krafsur. --to use the FIT program. Mr. Horsford. The rest of you, did each of you attend the required training? Judge Bridges. We attended a required training, but it looks like the regulations need to be updated and modernized. There are too many loopholes and too many--what you have is variable interpretations, and these interpretations are because the regulations are too loose and not focused. We as judges do what we do as judges. We don't make policy, but we have to respond to the policy that's there. For instance, the transferability of skills should have been changed 20 years ago, should have been updated, has not been updated. I don't think that the solution is the beating up upon judges. If the Social Security wants a different result, then you have to define clearly what it is that you want, and then we can respond to that. We will apply the laws. But the way the laws and regulations are now, they haven't been updated, they're subject to interpretations, and then you have all kinds of repercussions because those rules are not followed. What we---- Mr. Horsford. And we've heard that before, that there's too much ambiguity. Judge Bridges. Well, I think that's true. If you've heard that then---- Mr. Horsford. Let me ask the last judge at the end if he would respond. Judge Taylor. Yes. I think every year---- Mr. Lankford. Mr. Taylor, I'm sorry, can you turn your microphone on? Judge Taylor. I'm sorry about that. I apologize. Every year the ODAR takes about a third to a fourth of us and gets us all together for about a week of refresher training to try to bring us up to date with regard to new things that are going on, some recent court decisions, and they usually have some people there to talk to us about issues like paying the mental disorders and so forth. Mr. Horsford. Okay. So I'll close, Mr. Chairman, because I know my time has expired. Again, I look forward to us getting to the point where we're actually debating policy and bills to reform what's broken, not bringing a select few of cherry- picked judges to make some type of a political statement about what's broken. We know things are broken, but it's time for us to fix it. Mr. Lankford. Dr. Gosar. Mr. Gosar. Thank you very much. Mr. Bridges, I have to compliment you on your tie. I think we have the same vision of today. Judge Bridges. I think I'm part Irish. Mr. Gosar. Mr. Burke, I enjoyed your introductory statements. Would you say that it gives you a bias? Judge Burke. No, sir. Mr. Gosar. Why not? Judge Burke. Because I apply the facts to the law in an unbiased situation. I do have life experience, just like any other person that---- Mr. Gosar. So you would have to be very careful; would you not? Judge Burke. Yes, sir. Mr. Gosar. Okay. Mr. Taylor, do you have a medical degree? Judge Taylor. No, sir. Mr. Gosar. Can you push the button, please? You're constantly missing that. Judge Taylor. Sorry, sir. No, I do not have a medical degree. Mr. Gosar. So when you go through this, as you said, sequential evaluation---- Judge Taylor. Yes, sir. Mr. Gosar. --you said always has to happen, right? Judge Taylor. It's mandated by our regulations, yes, sir. Mr. Gosar. So all these five steps you take with every single complainant? Judge Taylor. Yes, sir. Mr. Gosar. So the majority of people that you see, they've gone through a rigorous background, because most the people that have done visual at the State level, the majority of them are actually included in disability from what the people at the State level see, right? So you're getting the hard of the hard cases. Judge Taylor. That's correct. Mr. Gosar. Okay. That's great. Oh, by the way, I forgot to tell you, I'm a dentist. Do you understand about diagnosis? Judge Taylor. Yes, sir. Mr. Gosar. How do you perform a diagnosis? Judge Taylor. It's where a doctor examines an individual, performs tests on the individual, does some kind of interview. Mr. Gosar. Oh, I want to stop you right there. I'm glad you said that, because you said that you're making decisions, and your bench cases, over half of them are that way, that you didn't really look at the medical benefits because, in your opinion, you're making those decisions. So what gave you that right to the degree of medical? I mean, you told me you didn't get a medical degree, did you? Judge Taylor. No, sir, I didn't get a medical degree. Mr. Gosar. So, how do you make that assertation without going to an expert witness? I mean, my colleague Mr. Gowdy actually brought this forward with another one of the bench witnesses. Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Mr. Gosar. So why wouldn't you rely on a face-to-face empirically, and number two is ask for expert witness? Because you didn't do that. Judge Taylor. In some cases, that's correct. I didn't. Mr. Gosar. How did that--I mean, that's a violation by your own standards here, the five steps of constant evaluation that have to be followed through. You violated right now in your own terms, you violated that rule. Judge Taylor. No, sir. Mr. Gosar. Oh, please, share it with us. Please, share us with your diagnosis. Judge Taylor. No, sir, it wasn't my diagnosis. One of the things that we have to work with in the fourth circuit is a so- called treating physician room, and that came forth in a case by the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals several years ago. I don't have the date for you. But the Commissioner issued an acquiescence ruling, I believe, and the rule says that unless rebutted by credible evidence of record---- Mr. Gosar. Well, I've got to stop you there because you're getting the hardest of hard cases, and you're rebutting it on your jurisdiction, not with an expert witness. So the people actually on the State level have been doing a visual and have actually seen an eye-to-eye, and you're defying that without an expert witness because you don't have a medical degree. Mr. Bridges, the review stated that you only consider the opinions of medical experts in 4 percent of your cases. Do you have a medical degree? Judge Bridges. No, and I dispute that. Mr. Gosar. You don't like being asked questions, do any of you? Mr. Taylor, you don't like being cross examined, do you? I mean, I see a hostility all the way across here. How about you, Mr. Bridges? You don't like answering questions either? Judge Bridges. Yes, I do, but I honestly said I dispute that. Mr. Gosar. Okay. Mr. Krafsur, you don't like being cross examined either? Judge Krafsur. It depends where the questions are being---- Mr. Gosar. Oh, come on, now. I'm a dentist. Mr. Lankford. Can you turn your microphone on, as well, sir? Judge Krafsur. I want to be cross examined providing the questions are fair and impartial. Mr. Gosar. How about you, Mr. Burke? Judge Burke. I'm happy to answer any questions by members of this committee. Mr. Gosar. Do you believe you periodically ought to have calibration? Judge Burke. Say again? Mr. Gosar. Do you believe that you should have periodic calibration, a kind of renewal to kind of get you back to square one? Judge Burke. I think that's reasonable management, too. Mr. Gosar. Mr. Krafsur, do you believe that, calibration? Judge Krafsur. Yes. Yes. Mr. Gosar. How about you, Mr. Bridges? Judge Bridges. Would you ask the question again? Mr. Gosar. Yeah. Do you believe in recalibration; you know, getting together kind of recalibrating? Judge Bridges. I think it's reasonable. Mr. Gosar. We're human, right? Judge Bridges. Right. I think that's a reasonable thing to do. Mr. Gosar. How about you, Mr. Taylor? Judge Taylor. Yes, I do. Mr. Gosar. Do you understand why we're having such a problem here is that the methodical aspects of these cases have gone to the State level, where they actually visually looked at this individual, they compiled the data, and they've rejected it twice looking them in the eye. And yet you, in many cases, and your colleagues don't even look at them and make a bench decision without even making an assertation of the merits. And that's why I was asking about diagnosis, because if you can't look at the patient, you can't see a medical doctor, you can't make a decision. You cannot make a decision. Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Mr. Gosar. And the hearsay that I'm seeing from down the list here is absurd to me. This is problematic. Wouldn't you agree based upon what I've just talked to you about, Mr. Taylor? Judge Taylor. Sir, with all due respect, could I mention something? Mr. Gosar. Sure. Keep it brief. Judge Taylor. Certainly. The first two steps in our process are done by something called the State agency. Their regulations are far different from ours. They have different regulations. Mr. Gosar. Wait a minute, stop right there, because the majority of these cases of people actually getting on disability actually happen there in the first two steps, because they actually look at the client, they looked at the claimant and saw them personally. Half the time we don't even see that from you, do we? Judge Taylor. Usually in the first two cases, they have reviewed some documentation. Mr. Gosar. And they look the person in the eye, right? Judge Taylor. In the case of a consultative---- Mr. Gosar. So let me ask you a question. So you can actually make a diagnosis without seeing the complainant? Judge Taylor. No, no, I couldn't do that. Mr. Gosar. That's my whole point is you're making these decision without even seeing the patient and actually having a credible, medical testimony. I mean, you said--I mean, the gentleman over here, I didn't see you do anything but nod, was in agreement. You hold three hats. Well, part of it is justice. A blindfolded lady--my good friend Mr. Gowdy makes a perfect comment. A blindfolded lady, she doesn't see who she's giving justice to; she's weighing information presented to her. That's the most important thing is justice. Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Mr. Gosar. Okay. Weighing the information. You're not credible as a medical technologist or a physician. You need to have that expert testimony, and not having it is a dereliction of duty. Number two is not seeing a person and making a claim is despicable about the process particularly of those people down below at the State level who have actually done service. This is rightful that we are actually exposing this. I disagree with my colleague Mr. Horsford, because you have to show the problem in order to fix the problem, and this is what exactly is shown. I hope America's watching because it's sad. I yield back the balance of my time. Mr. Lankford. Ms. Lujan Grisham. Ms. Lujan Grisham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I agree that this is a critical hearing, and, in fact, we're going to have another hearing this week talking about the staffing shortages. So if we're really going to talk about getting these issues addressed, and we're going to have physicians who are already difficult to see to do the diagnosis, to provide the information, the expert testimony that they're required to have on the initial applications, and have them always be available for in-person hearings on the appeal level, then we better be prepared as a body to put the right resources into the Social Security Administration. And like every Member here, I certainly want a system that's objective and fair. We want the judges to meet the highest level of professional standards. And as I'm listening to some of the issues that have been identified and to some of the--my colleague Mr. Horsford talk about training, I know there's some peer review here. There probably needs to be much more peer review at the ALJ level as diagnoses and disability issues actually change, given a newer technology and better tools for diagnosis. So I want to make sure that we're even, too. I want accountability in a system. I want accountability not only from the claimant level, from everybody who's making decisions in the Social Security system, but I also recognize that many of these systems were actually created in reverse, which means that the practice is to deny the benefits up front, and then you hope that the claimants don't have the wherewithal, the ability, the stamina to continue the process. And State programs, then, are left with significant behavior health issues, homelessness, a whole host of domestic issues that we are trying to figure out how to fund. I can tell you that New Mexico, and given that Mr. Burke, you're from Albuquerque, my district, I know that you're aware that we have one of the most significant disability and behavioral health problems in the country per capita. Now, I'm not suggesting that every person that applies for Social Security benefits is actually eligible, and that some of those people--maybe we could make it simple and put it in two categories. Some of them mean to defraud the government. Some of them do not mean to defraud the government, but believe their disability is tantamount to an award under Social Security. But I have plenty of practice with that situation where you are trained to deny up front, because that is one way to manage resources, no question. So I hope at this hearing that we figure out exactly that, accountability in a system for both the individuals working to use Social Security inappropriately; making sure we have accountability in the administration by the judges at all levels; making sure that we have appropriate training, but be very clear about what resources we're going to need, when I think, Mr. Burke, you testified it takes currently 2 years for someone to be able to get through the process for a potential award. Is that still your--2 years, did I get that right? Judge Burke. Representative, that's about the case in Albuquerque. In northern New Mexico, which is the most depressed part of the State, people wait 3 years on a regular basis. Ms. Lujan Grisham. All right. And Mr. Burke and anyone else in the panel, given my opening statements--and, again, I'm not trying to diminish any of the accountability issues here--but do you believe that in your experience as a lawyer or judge that the problems with underfunding and understaffing, does that deter legitimate claimants from appealing their cases and receiving benefits? Judge Krafsur. Yes, ma'am. Ms. Lujan Grisham. Anybody else agree with that statement? Judge Burke. Representative, I agree with that statement, but you're talking about training, and your neighbor Representative Mr.---- Ms. Lujan Grisham. Horsford. Judge Burke. --and Mr. Lankford mentioned before, and Senator Coburn, trying to get people back to work who have suffered an impairment or a disability. Now, the disability unit that makes these decisions before they get to us is a part of the New Mexico Department of Vocational Rehabilitation. In three States where I've practiced or been a judge, State of Washington, State of Tennessee and New Mexico, I see very, very little activity on the part of the Departments of Vocational Rehabilitation in getting disabled people back to work, and I think it's definitely a question of funding and resources. I do suggest that this committee look toward the question of getting vocational rehabilitation---- Ms. Lujan Grisham. And, Your Honor, I really appreciate that very much, that statement, and I'm running out of time. And I don't mean to be so rude as to interrupt you, but I want to make sure that we focus on and I want to end with a statement on the record about the balances here. I agree that anybody who wants to work should have the opportunity to work, and given my 30-plus years experience with the disability population, I think most individuals, irrespective of a disability, desire to work. But supportive employment and training programs, and employment access, and those tools and resources are not but almost completely gone; not just diminished, they don't exist in so many States and programs, that includes DVR. But what I would like to suggest, given the testimony that we've heard today, that we need strong oversight mechanisms. We need to ensure that benefits are not incorrectly approved and not incorrectly denied, and that we have to create a criteria where both those things are achieved. Congress needs to fully invest in reducing the backlog, because right now this program is failing to provide timely service, support and due process to individuals who desperately need it, and I am looking forward to that focus in these hearings as well. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman Issa. [Presiding.] Thank you. We now go to Mr. DeSantis for 5 minutes. Mr. DeSantis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Krafsur, you, in 2011, when the agency reviewed your decisions, your decisions were found to have consistently failed to provide a substantive evaluation of medical evidence or rationale to support their findings in that when you would evaluate cases--when they evaluated your cases, that the theories that you were using were not in compliance with Social Security Administration regulations. Now, between 2005 and 2013, while you're rendering decisions which this review said failed to provide a substantive evaluation of medical evidence or rationale to support the findings, nevertheless, during that whole time, your allowance rate was 99 percent. And so that would mean that claimants who come before you, they've been denied twice by and large at the State level, and then almost all of them, 99 percent, you're overruling that without providing substantive justifications. And so my question to you is if you're overruling the State 99 percent of the time, you're not really evaluating the evidence or providing the justifications, is it just obvious that all these cases are wrong? How is it that 99 percent of the cases at the State level on those two reviews are incorrect? Judge Krafsur. First of all, I'm reviewing all the medical records, not the ones just the DDS happens, because I've seen many times DDS people don't even agree with each other. So I have to take and consider all the records, the ones put in by the representative or the claimant, and take everything as a fact that's put before me. So I review every piece of paper that's medically in front of me. So I would show---- Mr. DeSantis. That doesn't mean just because, you know, you read it, they're saying your decisions are not justified in a substantive way. It seems like you're intent to find one way. And I do take a little bit of issue, because I think it was a little misleading when you were in a colloquy with Mr. Gowdy and you said that 99 percent of your decisions have never been reversed on appeal. But isn't it the case that if you award a claimant, if you find for the claimant, then there is no appeal, correct? Judge Krafsur. That is why---- Mr. DeSantis. Is that correct? Judge Krafsur. Right now, yes. Mr. DeSantis. That is correct. So to say that 99 percent of your cases that you haven't been reversed, yeah, because it's a factual impossibility for you to have been reversed. And so I don't understand how you could posit that as some type of justification for your decisionmakings. I mean, it may fool somebody who's not familiar with the system, but those cases are done. As Gowdy said, there's not a taxpayer advocate who then will appeal beyond that. Now, let me--you mentioned when you were talking with Gowdy, when he asked you about some of the theories that you had been injecting into these cases, you essentially are making yourself a witness, and he called you on that, and your response was that you have a First Amendment right to speak in those cases. And to me that just is a fundamental misunderstanding of the First Amendment. No one is saying that you're going to be prosecuted for saying; the question is is that the correct role of someone in your position to be injecting their own theories? And I know you have this cause-and-effect theory, and I just want to read this quick snippet. ``Claimant said, I worked in a slaughter house wrapping meat. You said, exposed to blood, right? Claimant says, yes. And then you say, I call this the effect, and what we try to do is find the cause. We found the cause today. Once you find a cause, it's easy to pay a case. It's impossible to pay a case if you can't find the cause. My job is to just get enough information to do what I have to do.'' So my question to you is is the cause and effect in the reviews that have been done, or other folks, has that been determined to be consistent with Social Security Administration guidelines for adjudicating these cases, or is that a test that you developed yourself? Judge Krafsur. No, that is developed by Social Security. And if you notice my presentation, I said on-the-record reviews by the Appeals Council, a favorable decision should be abolished and replaced by direct appeal to the appropriate Federal court to prevent the SSA from getting the second bite. So if the State should be allowed to take--if they think my case is incorrect, should be sent to Federal court for their review, and if the Federal court deems it incorrect, send it back for another hearing. But SSA gets a second bite from the Appeals Council. Mr. DeSantis. Look, Mr. Krafsur, I think we're concerned here. I agree with Dr. Coburn. People are disabled. We want to make sure, we even err on the side of paying too much. But when you see figures like this and taxpayer dollars going out the door without substantive reviews, billions and billions of dollars, it's a tremendous cause for concern. And I yield back to the chairman. Judge Krafsur. May I interrupt, please, Mr. Chairman? Chairman Issa. Yes, please. You can finish your response. Judge Krafsur. I see every one of those people that appear before me. Everyone who appears before me I've seen physically. I've seen their ailments. I've seen their pain, I've seen everything. I don't give on-record decisions. I actually see these people. And I see their pain right in front of me. I can visually see the pain. That--maybe the panel doesn't understand that, but I see the pain. I'm looking at them very carefully to make sure that I see something in their system that's a pain. I review every case I've ever had, except for the ones that may be on record because they can't appear because of another disability. But I've seen every case since 1991. I've never, never had a case that I gave an on-record decision to. Chairman Issa. Would the gentleman yield? Mr. DeSantis. Yes. Chairman Issa. So you're saying that you award because you see their pain? Judge Krafsur. No, no. It's matched--it's matched with the record. It's matched with the record of the disability that I see from the physicians or from down below. Everyone is matched. It's matched through the attorneys, who give--who take my sheet that lists all the evidence. They give me exhibit numbers, and I match every one very carefully to make sure that they match what the claimant is testifying to during the hearing. Chairman Issa. I'll use my own time in a minute, but it is interesting, and I hope you'll be prepared to answer, why the people beneath you who initially say no are nearly 100 percent wrong, in your opinion. So be prepared to answer that when it comes on my time. We now go to the gentlelady from Illinois Ms. Duckworth. Ms. Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to say that the topic of today's hearing is critically important for every American worker. Social Security disability programs provide a modest benefit, $1,140 a month for the average SSDI recipient, and just $537 a month for the average SSI recipient. But these modest payments make all the difference when Americans face a life-changing disability or illness. It's often the difference between making ends meet and facing deep poverty and potential homelessness. It's vital that we make sure this program that workers are paying into each month continues to be there for them when the worst thing happens: They get hurt. Now, given how important this program is, there's absolutely no excuse for those who seek to defraud or take advantage of it. We can and must redouble our efforts to combat waste, fraud and abuse in the system and make sure that Social Security has the resources it needs to maintain the program integrity. In reviewing all four of today's witnesses, I notice you all have something in common with each other that makes you different from the typical judge in the Social Security Administration. The typical judge has an allowance rate of 57 percent. We touched on this--my colleagues touched on this a little bit earlier, and I'd like to explore this further. That's a national average rate with which judges award disability benefits in the cases that they hear. The large majority of the ALJ corps is close to the national rate of 57 percent, but the judges here today have an average rate between 33 and 99 percent. For each of you, why do you think that all the other judges with allowance rates nearer to 57 percent have such a vastly different performance from you? And remember that, you know, Judge Krafsur, what you said about you see their pain and every one of their pain, that can't be the reason, because you and Judge Taylor have very different approaches. If you see everyone, but he does not see most of his folks, you still have the same allowance rate. So could each of the four panelists discuss why do you think that your rates are so much higher than the others, and what is it that the other judges are doing that they only have an allowance rate of 57 compared to your 99 percent--93 to 99 percent? Thank you. Mr. Burke, do you want to start, and we'll just go down the row. Judge Burke. I think one factor in that, I think a factor that I think the four of us share, is that we have some experience in personal injury representation, representing injured people, and litigating cases, and being able to, as I say, read medical records, take depositions of medical personnel, and use the fact-finding process that we've learned in adversary situations. I think many and most of the ALJs coming now have been-- worked for government agencies in a relatively--and military-- in a relatively sterile environment that doesn't have that human connection and awareness of the various forces and interest in the various medical people and that sort of thing that we have learned as trial lawyers. Ms. Duckworth. So you're saying that because you have a history of representing folks, that makes you more apt to give awards more generously? Judge Burke. I think--I think it helps your perception, yes. Ms. Duckworth. Okay. I find that somewhat troublesome, because I think that's a bias that should not be there as a judge. But, Mr. Krafsur? Judge Krafsur. Yes, ma'am. I--I once--I asked the DDS to provide me with medical, psychological and psychiatric tests, which they refuse to do. And they won't provide it. So I have to--so what I'm asking for to be able to do is bring the DDS people who have made these recommendations down below to appear before me so I can examine them and have them be cross examined by the claimant rep. Ms. Duckworth. Okay. I only have a minute left, so I'm going to have to cut you off. I apologize. Are you saying that you're the only one--that these other judges that are 57 percent have access to these people, and that's why they're giving less, and you're giving more because you don't? I mean, you're the only judge--or these four judges are the only four that don't have access? Is that what you're saying? Because that doesn't make sense. Mr. Bridges? Judge Bridges. I can't speak for any other judge but myself. When I've applied all my knowledge, my training to the case in front of me, this is what I get. So I'm satisfied that I've done the best I can with all the facts of that particular case that's unique to that person. I can't address what any other judge has done, but to do what I can do to the cases that I have. Ms. Duckworth. Mr. Chairman, could we allow Mr. Taylor to do the final? Chairman Issa. Please. Take such time as you need. Go ahead. Ms. Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Taylor? Judge Taylor. If I understand your question correctly, there are obviously some cases that I've done, as I mentioned, and in some of those cases it's obvious that sometimes the judge's hands are tied. If they're of a certain age, they have a certain RFC, a certain work background, a certain goodwill kicks in, there's really nothing you can do about it. If the committee will note, beginning last year, the agency began an initiative to limit each judge to 80 cases a month, and this is all that judges are given now. There's no on-the- records, or at least very few that are being issued at the present time. I know that I can't think of any that I've issued since about this time last year, because we really can't. There's 80 cases being assigned to each judge. We are supposed to make our 5- to 700, but based upon that, as well as make an effort to reach our productivity goals. Ms. Duckworth. But the judges here average more than 1,000 decisions in a given year, and one of you actually completed more than 2,000 decisions in multiple years, and yet the average is 500 to 700 for those who get the 57 percent. So maybe the common denominator here is that you're just pushing these through and not really reviewing them. I don't know. Mr. Chairman, I'm out of time. Thank you. Chairman Issa. Thank you. Mr. Taylor, I've been told it's 70 a month, 840 a year. Do you get a different number? Judge Taylor. Your Honor--excuse me, Mr. Chairman, I've been told 5- to 700. Now, maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I will admit it. I haven't seen that number. Chairman Issa. Well, for all of you, if you're reversing the lower decisions by 90-some percent, in your opinion does that mean that, in fact, the denials are inherently overzealous, wrong; that the people beneath you that are saying no are by definition almost always wrong? Judge Bridges. I'm not--I wouldn't say that, but I would say that they are not legally trained. Chairman Issa. Well, but you're reversing them 90-some percent, right? Judge Bridges. All I can say is that they are not legally trained. Chairman Issa. No, no. Judge Bridges. And that is--and we are also seeing---- Chairman Issa. Well, but, Mr. Bridges, we're kind of funny about our questions here. We're fairly nuanced. Are you reversing them 90-some percent? Judge Bridges. I really don't know, because I don't pay attention to those figures. All I do is concentrate on each case, one at a time. Chairman Issa. Okay. So you don't know that you've been awarding as a reversal of earlier claims over 90 percent of the time? Judge Bridges. I don't look at those figures because it may influence me. Chairman Issa. Mr. Bridges, you mean that you don't notice---- Judge Bridges. No. Chairman Issa. --that you're essentially saying approved, approved, approved almost all the time? Judge Bridges. I don't notice because I don't want to be influenced. Each individual is due his just and accurate decision, so I don't want to be influenced by that, so I take each case at a time. Chairman Issa. That is the most astounding thing I've ever heard in this here. That's sort of like saying that you don't look at the speed limits signs because you don't want to be influenced by what speed is safe on the highway. Mr. Taylor, you've been distinguished by multiple awards for your work; isn't that true? Judge Taylor. Some, yes, sir. Chairman Issa. And were those awards based on volume? Judge Taylor. Yes, sir. Chairman Issa. So all four of you were brought here--three of you, not you, Mr. Taylor--but three of you under subpoena, involuntarily, if you will. And we want to be fair to you, but we're obviously disappointed in the performance overall of this disability claim system. But I just want to make sure I make for the record very clear: You're awarding almost all the time a reversal granting this roughly 300,000 per person in benefits for disability, reversing the lower decision, but you're being given awards because the only thing your bosses care about, at least in those awards, is volume; is that correct? Judge Taylor. I don't think that's the only thing that they care about. That's not the reaction that I get. The thing that we have to meet is these goals that we've had over the years, and the goals have changed a little bit since I came in, but they've always gone up. And, of course, last year the goals were taken off, and they are no more. I don't think that's the most important thing. But we do have a set of goals that we're supposed to meet, a set of productivity goals. Chairman Issa. Mr. Bridges, Mr. Krafsur and Mr. Burke, have you, any of you, received similar quality awards--quantity awards? Have you received any awards for the work and the volume that you're pumping through your---- Judge Bridges. No, it would be illegal for us to receive awards. Chairman Issa. So Mr. Taylor illegally receives an award? Judge Bridges. ALJs should not receive awards for---- Chairman Issa. Mr. Taylor, you're shaking your head yes. Do you think your award was illegal? Judge Taylor. It was just a letter, sir. Chairman Issa. Okay. Any of the rest of you receive letters saying good things about your work based on quantity? Judge Krafsur. Just the whole office, not just the individual judge. Chairman Issa. Okay. So there was an ``attaboy'' based on volume. Mr. Burke? Judge Burke. No, sir. Chairman Issa. Okay. Mr. Burke, I'm concerned, in one case you decided in October 2012, you found an established offset date of 2002, even though in the filing the earliest treatment records were 2009. Do you remember that case? Judge Burke. No, sir, I don't. Chairman Issa. It was in your focus review. Your reviewer reviewed it, and I guess the question is, isn't it true that people are only entitled to retroactive disability payments to the point at which they can substantiate the onset of whatever made them unable to work? Judge Burke. Correct. Chairman Issa. So it's extremely important to get that date right, because if it's 7 years earlier, that's a lot of money, isn't it? Judge Burke. No, sir. You can only be paid a year prior to your Title 2, your Social Security application. So if you apply, say, in 2008, with an onset date of 2002, you're still not going to get paid prior to 2007. Chairman Issa. Have you discussed the focus review with anyone? Judge Burke. No, sir. Chairman Issa. Okay. Now, we are the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and people often don't see the reform, so let's go through the numbers a little bit. I asked Mr. Bridges; he doesn't keep track of them. I'll go to you, Mr. Taylor. If you're reversing 100 percent, then doesn't that inherently mean that either you're wrong, or the people beneath you are saying no when they should be saying yes a lot of times? Because, I mean, you're the first to say that you're handling too many cases, but if cases are coming to you at almost 100 percent you're reversing them, then wouldn't that inherently mean that these cases should not come to you because they should be approved at a lower level, in your opinion? Judge Taylor. That's a hard question to answer, sir. I can only talk about some of the cases I've received. I know very little about the general overall picture as to what other judges are getting. Chairman Issa. Well, let me ask you a question. I know Mr. Bridges said he doesn't even look at the number, but those are your numbers up on the screen. So let's just take, you know--I don't know, we'll take the first date, 2005, 95.2 percent. Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Chairman Issa. In each of those years in which you ran in the '90s until 2013, which is, I believe, when sort of we started changing, 2011, 2012, 2013, those numbers are coming down for you down to 74 percent now. Judge Taylor. Uh-huh. Chairman Issa. During that time, did you ever write any letters or do anything to try to ask, why am I getting 90 percent misdecisions that I have to reverse? Judge Taylor. No, sir. Chairman Issa. Why not? Judge Taylor. I never really thought that at the time I was getting the cases, which I got to look at from the standpoint of on the records, I never really thought that those were given to me in an extraneous manner. Looking at them, I could tell why a senior staffer might have referred that case to me to look at. But of course I didn't grant everything that was on the list of recommendations. I might have found earnings after onset, I might have found subsequent reports that went in the record after the staffer reviewed it. Chairman Issa. Now, you particularly made a lot of decisions without ever having hearings. How do you justify that I need a judge to do that rather than simply another bureaucratic review? Judge Taylor. It's interesting you should mention that. We have, at least we used to have at our office, three senior attorneys who--well, one of their jobs was to review cases to determine whether they could be done on the record. For one reason or another, now we only have one there now, at least one full-time. And that is part of their job, to look at these cases from the standpoint of whether they can be done on the record and perhaps to refer it to a judge to determine whether it can be. Chairman Issa. Well, those lawyers that were pumping through those for those determinations, weren't those just part of the productivity, part of getting more volume out? Judge Taylor. They are part of ODAR, yes, sir. Chairman Issa. Okay. Well, that may be why they have less of them, is that they weren't achieving better decisions, just more volume. Now, I share with Ms. Duckworth the concern about the backlog, and that is still an area that I am very, very concerned about. But let me ask you a question. The ranking member and I authored a bill called the DATA Act that now has been signed into law. Part of the intent was to organize data to make it more useful. The nature of many of the points that are part of your decision, aren't those, in fact, data points that are codified in law, they're not discretionary? In other words, what Mr. Burke said about how far back you can award based on when the application was, when the document onset is, and so on, aren't those points that should be essentially loaded into computers and absolutely determined away from the judge's decision? Because they are decisions of fact, that in fact you don't need to take human error into account, you need to make sure that the law is complied with? Would you agree with that? Judge Taylor. That would be very helpful, sir, very helpful. Chairman Issa. The rest of you? Would that be helpful, if all the data points of fact and law would already be put in so that you wouldn't be, in a sense, trying to make a judgment call about those kinds of things and having to remember, like Mr. Burke, what the details of how far back you go or what the effect would be? Mr. Cummings, do you have additional questions? The gentleman is recognized. Mr. Cummings. Let me ask you this. Senator Coburn talked about--Mr. Burke--Judge Burke--you referred to this. Senator Coburn talked extensively about this judge in Oklahoma, administrative law judge, who was able to get people back to work. I think that's what he said. And, you know, I think when you talk about no other job--a person not being able to do another job, I'm just trying figure out, do you think--and then you said that there is so--there is not sufficient resources and support systems to even accomplish those things. So how is that done normally? I mean, how would it be--that this fellow be able to do it in Oklahoma and then some people probably, that if they--maybe if they were a truck driver and maybe they had an injury and maybe they would be in a position to do something else. And I'm just curious. Talk about that for a minute. Judge Burke. In the best of all possible worlds, the continuum between employment and total disability should go from employment to unemployment to partial disability to full disability and then to vocational rehabilitation to put the person back to work. They should dovetail. But in my experience in those three States I have practiced in, the vocational rehabilitation part of it is forgotten. It is funded by the Social Security Act or regulated by the Social Security Act, but apparently the appropriations are--it doesn't get the attention that it should. Another factor about going back to work for disabled people is the level of skill that they had when they were injured or became sick. A skilled individual is much more likely to be able to be retrained or to have a skill level that they can exercise at a more sedentary level. In northern New Mexico, where I am from, there's a high degree of lack of skill, manual labor jobs. There is no industry in northern New Mexico to speak of. So in that situation you get a lot of straight total disability cases. Mr. Cummings. So if you have an area where you have got a lot of people doing laboring type work, then you are more likely to see higher rates of approved disability claims? Is that---- Judge Burke. Yes, sir. And the Social Security regulations, for instance that grid, talks about whether or not a person is skilled or semi-skilled or has transferrable skills that can be used at a light or sedentary level. That is what the vocational experts advise us on. Mr. Cummings. So basically some of these people have no skills. Judge Burke. Yes, that's quite correct. Mr. Cummings. So there's nothing to really fall back on. Mr. Burke. Exactly. Mr. Cummings. Interesting. All right. Thank you. Chairman Issa. Thank you. We are going to stand in recess. And I would expect that if there are no votes by 1:30, if we don't come back, that we will have you dismissed. So what I'd say is we will be in recess for at least 20, 25 minutes, if you want to get a bite to eat. And then if you will come back here, we will give you a final determination. Thank you. [Whereupon, at 12:38 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] APPENDIX ---------- Material Submitted for the Hearing Record [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]