[Senate Hearing 112-892] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 112-892 AN EXAMINATION OF SBA PROGRAMS: ELIMINATING INEFFICIENCIES, DUPLICATIONS, FRAUD, AND ABUSE ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ JUNE 16, 2011 __________ Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov _____ U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 88-373 PDF WASHINGTON : 2014 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800 DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS ---------- MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana, Chair OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine, Ranking Member CARL LEVIN, Michigan DAVID VITTER, Louisiana TOM HARKIN, Iowa JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts MARCO RUBIO, Florida JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut RAND PAUL, Kentucky MARIA CANTWELL, Washington KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland SCOTT P. BROWN, Massachusetts JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire GERALD W. MORAN, Kansas KAY R. HAGAN, North Carolina Donald R. Cravins, Jr., Democratic Staff Director and Chief Counsel Wallace K. Hsueh, Republican Staff Director C O N T E N T S ---------- Opening Statements Page Landrieu, Hon. Mary L., Chair, and a U.S. Senator from Louisiana. 1 Snowe, Hon. Olympia, a U.S. Senator from Maine................... 10 Paul, Hon. Rand, a U.S. Senator from Kentucky.................... 12 Witness Testimony Panel 1 Gordon Mills, Hon. Karen, Administrator, U.S. Small Business Administration................................................. 13 Gustafson, Hon. Peggy E., Inspector General, Office of Inspector General, U.S. Small Business Administration.................... 20 Panel 2 Shear, William B., Director of Financial Markets and Community Investment, U.S. Government Accountability Office.............. 44 Baron, Kevin, Director of Government Affairs, American Small Business League................................................ 70 Dehaven, Tad, Budget Analyst, Cato Institute..................... 80 Pastore, Fran, Chief Executive Officer, Women's Business Development Council, Stamford, CT.............................. 90 Clarkson, Greg, Executive Vice President--SBA Lending Division of BBVA Compass Bank and Chairman of NAGGL Board of Directors..... 97 Alphabetical Listing and Appendix Material Submitted Association for Enterprise Opportunity Prepared statement........................................... 141 Baron, Kevin Testimony.................................................... 70 Prepared statement........................................... 73 Clarkson, Greg Testimony.................................................... 97 Prepared statement........................................... 99 Dehaven, Tad Testimony.................................................... 80 Prepared statement........................................... 82 Gordon Mills, Hon. Karen Testimony.................................................... 13 Prepared statement........................................... 16 Responses to post-hearing questions from Ranking Member Snowe 122 Gustafson, Hon. Peggy E. Testimony.................................................... 20 Prepared statement........................................... 22 Landrieu, Hon. Mary L. Opening statement............................................ 1 Article titled ``Small-business contracts under scrutiny from several federal agencies''................................. 2 Article titled ``SBA suspends major contractor GTSI from government work''.......................................... 5 Article titled ``SAB suspends two firms alleging contracting abuse''.................................................... 8 Jobs Agenda map.............................................. 119 Pastore, Fran Testimony.................................................... 90 Prepared statement........................................... 92 Paul, Hon. Rand Opening statement............................................ 12 Shear, William B. Testimony.................................................... 44 Prepared statement........................................... 46 Snowe, Hon. Olympia Opening statement............................................ 10 West, Dennis Prepared statement........................................... 148 AN EXAMINATION OF SBA PROGRAMS: ELIMINATING INEFFICIENCIES, DUPLICATIONS, FRAUD, AND ABUSE ---------- THURSDAY, JUNE 16, 2011 United States Senate, Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship, Washington, DC. The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in Room SR-428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Mary L. Landrieu (Chair of the committee) presiding. Present: Senators Landrieu, Pryor, Snowe, Risch, Paul, and Brown. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARY L. LANDRIEU, CHAIR, AND A U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA Chair Landrieu. Good morning. I would like to call the Small Business meeting to order. The purpose of our meeting this morning is to review duplication, inefficiencies, fraud, abuse, and exploitation in programs run by the Small Business Administration. I want to thank Administrator Mills and Peggy Gustafson for being with us this morning, and we are looking forward to a second panel as well. I thank you for joining us today. I, along with members of this Committee, have made it a priority to ensure that all SBA programs are running efficiently, effectively, and free of exploitation. In a December 2010 letter to SBA Administrator Karen Mills, Ranking Member Snowe and I expressed our deep concern with the allegations of some fraud and abuse in small business contracting programs, as highlighted by recent Washington Post articles--there were two that I am going to submit for the record--and GAO reports that I will also submit for the record. I would like my staff to present the document that we are working off of. This is a review of the last 5 years of all of the reports done by GAO and the Inspector General. We have reviewed these reports, we have summarized these reports, and we are going to submit them. Of course, they are already part of the record, but we will refer to them today, if necessary. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chair Landrieu. We requested that Administrator Mills provide this Committee with a detailed plan for addressing and rectifying some of the problems that have been brought to her for her review. We are looking forward to that report this morning. In addition, in subsequent letters Administrator Mills and SBA Inspector General Peg Gustafson were asked to make recommendations for eliminating or substantially reducing programs within the SBA that were duplicative, ineffective, or redundant. I will report this morning that, as a result of at least the initial review, two programs--Community Express and the Coverdell Drug-Free Workplace Program--have been or are in the process of being eliminated. We are here today to further examine actions that can be taken to reduce or eliminate inefficiency or fraud or abusive operations. Even as we take on this task, we must be careful to act in a manner that does not undermine the SBA's ability to serve the needs of the 26 million small businesses in our country that are the backbone of our economy and counting on the SBA to do its job and do its job well. On Panel 2 we will hear testimony from representatives from the GAO, the American Small Business League, the National Association of Government Guaranteed Lenders, the Cato Institute, and the Women's Business Development Council in Stamford, Connecticut, that will add their voice to this debate. I welcome an opening statement by Ranking Member Snowe and look forward to hearing the testimony today. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, A U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE Senator Snowe. Thank you, Chair Landrieu, for holding this critical hearing to assess and to analyze inefficiencies, duplication, waste, fraud, and abuse in the programs of the Small Business Administration. Clearly more can and must be done to eliminate these obstacles that prevent the agency from reaching its full potential. We are fortunate today to have with us the SBA Administrator, Karen Mills, who is truly on the front lines of this issue. Administrator Mills has shown strong and outstanding leadership by putting a framework in place to help prevent illegitimate firms from siphoning away contracts from rightful small businesses trying to compete for Government contracts. Additionally, on the first panel we have Inspector General Peggy Gustafson, whose testimony in March provided this Committee valuable insight and recommendations for the SBA in the area of procurement fraud, and we appreciate our second panel of witnesses representing the Government Accountability Office and the small business community. We are anxious to hear everyone's suggestions for streamlining programs and efforts while reducing fraud and improving the agency's effectiveness. There cannot be any clearer impetus for us to find ways to eliminate inefficiencies, duplication, and waste across the Government than the current economic crisis. Our national debt will reach 100 percent of GDP by the end of 2011. The bottom line is that our Nation's revenues and spending are vastly misaligned. We cannot and must not finance operating expenses with perpetual deficits. It is through this lens that we must examine every taxpayer dollar our Government spends and utilize our Nation's small businesses to spur private sector job growth. Today's hearing is truly a piece of a much larger puzzle. Congress has been reviewing a 345-page report issued in March from the GAO that outlines Federal programs, agency offices, and initiatives with duplicative goals and activities. As revealed by this report, there is no shortage of waste to identify. What is so remarkable about these efforts is that the Federal government could cut spending without eliminating programs it services by simply implementing solutions such as sharing resources or collaborating among departments. For instance, the GAO report exposed massive duplication throughout our Government, such as 80 economic development programs across four Federal agencies, including the SBA, which administers 19 of the programs. Of those programs, the GAO identified that 52 either exclusively or in part address entrepreneurial efforts. The total 2010 funding for these 80 programs alone amounted to $6.5 billion. While I am eager to hear the SBA's response to the GAO report, I also would want to know what changes the SBA is actively considering as it reviews all of its programs for replication, such as working with other agencies to consolidate programs and resources to help eliminate duplication. To date, the SBA has taken some modest first steps with regard to streamlining or eliminating programs. Last January the Chair and I sent a letter to Administrator Mills and Inspector General Gustafson soliciting their insight as to how the agency recommends eliminating wasteful spending, and I want to thank the Inspector General for her in-depth response. I know the SBA has responded by deferring to the President's fiscal year 2012 budget request which proposed eliminating the Prime Technical Assistance Program, the Drug- Free Workplace Program, and several special purposes counseling grants for the Small Business Development Center Program. I hope that we can be able to do more in that category. In addition, today's discussion of making the agency more efficient will also explore efforts to eliminate fraud and abuse in any of the SBA's programs. Our Committee held a March hearing to discuss steps to remedy the findings of the recent GAO reports that revealed 14 ineligible firms receiving $325 million sole-source contracts and set-aside contracts, even though these firms were not eligible for the 8(a) program to begin with. At my request the SBA sent two letters outlining actions taken against these 14 firms, as well as creating a special task force focused on strengthening enforcement actions. I appreciate the timely and comprehensive response Administrator Mills provided my office and believe these administrative changes present additional deterrence to those who perpetuate fraud against the Government. It is our duty in Congress to provide the statutory tools necessary to create additional deterrence against fraud. That is why I recently introduced, together with Chair Landrieu and a number of my colleagues on this Committee, the Small Business Contracting Fraud Prevention Act to bolster fraud prevention at the SBA. This bill includes provisions specifying damages sustained by the Government in cases of fraud, aims to standardize the certification processes, and increases transparency when the Government takes enforcement actions against such firms. Simply put, we must remain vigilant in assuring that all of the SBA's contracting programs are running efficiently, effectively, and free of exploitation. Additionally, collaboration must extend to other agencies such as the Department of Justice for enforcement of punishment of any bad actors found to be fraudulent. This week I sent a letter along with Senator Grassley, the Ranking Member of the Judiciary Committee, to the Attorney General inquiring why the Department of Justice is declining to prosecute cases that were referred from the SBA's Inspector General, including 20 cases since October of 2010 to March. In any event, we know that strong punitive actions and strong enforcement will result in, I think, a very strong deterrent, and that is what we have to accomplish as well. So I am hopeful that we will hear from our witnesses here today about how best we can do that in identifying all the waste and inefficiencies that may continue to exist and also to implement many of the ideas that the GAO has recommended. Thank you, Madam Chair. Chair Landrieu. Thank you. Senator Paul. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RAND PAUL, A U.S. SENATOR FROM KENTUCKY Senator Paul. Thank you. Thank you, Chair Landrieu and Senator Snowe for allowing me to participate and to bring a witness from the free market think tank of Cato today. I am happy to be here. I was pleased last night to meet Ms. Mills, and we had a great conversation, and I hope we get to continue that today in public. As I told Ms. Mills last evening when we met, I am a great believer in the free market, and the thing about the free marketplace and capitalism in general is it is a place where you have voluntary interaction and people get to vote every day. So in the marketplace, people vote with their dollars, with their loans. Everybody gets to vote and everybody gets to choose, so it is really about choice. And to me, whether the Government makes the loans or the private marketplace makes the loans, it is really about choice, and it is whether or not we are going to say that our choice is somehow superior to the market's choice. As Ms. Mills told me, she thinks that there is market failure, and I will let her describe that when we get to that. The problem I think I have with that, with saying that the market fails in giving loans is that you basically are bringing your opinion to bear to say that the market is failing. It could be that the market is just choosing other people that you would rather choose, you know, certain people to get a loan and the market is choosing other people to get a loan. Frederic Bastiat was a philosopher back in the 19th century and a French parliamentarian, and he wrote several books, and he was a critic of mercantilism and protectionism. But one of the things he talked about, that he is famous for talking about, is the seen and the unseen. The seen is very easy. We can show a small business loan, and we can say Mr. Smith got this loan and look at this bright, shiny new building that he has built and how good this is and how he created these jobs. But the unseen is the money came from somewhere. You know, he had to either tax somebody or he had to borrow it. There are costs to Government loans. But basically really what you have done is you have changed who gets to choose--private individuals choosing where the money goes or Government, select Government. And then there is the possibility that the loans end up going to your friends or your contributors, and I am not saying anything about this Administration or anyone, but there is the potential for Government abuse where the loans go to friends and go to maybe windmills because we like windmills better than coal companies or certain people might make those decisions. There is possibility for politicization of the loans. But the unseen is where the person who did not get the loan because the loan was distributed by the Government, that money is taken out of the marketplace, and that money would have gone to someone else. So I do not think it is enough to argue that we have these great multipliers. Everybody argues this. You know, every business organization says, ``Oh, we created this one job with this small business loan, and it created ten other jobs.'' Well, so do all jobs that are created. I mean, that just means that you have created it, but the private marketplace may have delegated or designated the money to go somewhere else, and it would have the same multipliers of employing other people. The main difference is that a private loan would have gone to--basically the decision is democratic capitalism. We all vote every day on where those loans go. And so I would just make a pitch and like to have the viewpoint known that there are people who believe that the marketplace and individuals should freely interact and make the decision where loans go and that really Government should not be in this business at all. Thank you. Chair Landrieu. Thank you so much. Ms. Mills. STATEMENT OF HON. KAREN GORDON MILLS, ADMINISTRATOR, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION Ms. Mills. Well, thank you very much, Chair Landrieu and Ranking Member Snowe and members of the Committee, Senator Paul. Thank you for inviting me to testify today. Half of the people who work in America own or work for a small business. That is 26 million small businesses. And as you all know, two out of every three jobs are created by small business. Over the past 2 critical years, the SBA has helped put $53 billion in lending support and $195 billion in Federal contracts in the hands of these small businesses. And at the same time, we have counseled and trained and mentored over 2 million Americans who have turned to us to start or grow their business. We have also delivered on our promises, such as this Committee's request to reinvent SBA's website, and we launched it in January. So far it has attracted over 3 million unique users in just 6 months. Our focus remains twofold: number one, to deliver proven tools directly into the hands of small businesses; and, number two, to give taxpayers strong oversight of their dollars and the best possible bang for their buck. We do this across our 3 Cs--capital, counseling, and contracts--and I am going to touch briefly on the latter two. Often, the first interaction a small business has with the Federal government is with our field offices and counseling partners. We are the front door. Let us say you walk into the Tacoma Business Center in Washington State. If you have a simple business idea, you will be referred to the Tacoma SCORE chapter to help you flesh it out and test its feasibility. Nationwide, 12,000 SCORE volunteers helped 400,000 people last year, three-fourths of whom were just starting out, and the cost of all of that program is $7 million. If you had a home-based small enterprise already running, but you needed more guidance, the Tacoma Women's Business Center would be your best bet. Nationwide, 110 Women's Business Centers served over 160,000 clients last year, with a budget of just $14 million because of public-private partnerships. They are strategically located in easy-to-access, underserved areas. And maybe you had an established business that needed help with commercialization or exports. You would be referred to our Small Business Development Center. Nationwide, we have about 900 SBDCs, often located at universities and community colleges. They helped nearly 600,000 clients last year, about half of which were established businesses. The cost was about $110 million. As Administrator, I have been all around the country. I have been to 34 states over the past 2 years, and I visited with these resource partners and small businesses in every area. This is our bone structure. Our doors are open to small businesses in the places where they live and work. That is important because our data shows that long-term counseling leads to better sales and more longevity. We leverage this bone structure to collaborate, as Senator Snowe described, across the Federal government with the Veterans Administration to serve veteran small business owners, by cross-training our people with the Department of Agriculture in serving rural business, with the Department of Commerce to serve small exporters, and with many other Federal partners. Finally, we remain, as you described, strongly committed to oversight of taxpayers' dollars. I committed to this Committee to get aggressive on fraud, waste, and abuse, and I committed to remove fraud, waste, and abuse in our contracting with a three-pronged approach. First, up-front certification. We now have much stronger requirements for 8(a) and HUBZone applicants. Second, with continued surveillance and monitoring. For instance, we made a dramatic increase in the site visits in our HUBZone. Six months before I came, we had done seven site visits. In the last year, we have done 1,200. And, finally, with aggressive pursuit of misconduct. We have removed many firms, suspended, or proposed for debarment dozens of bad actors. As the front door for small business seeking help in any industry at any stage of growth, we will continue to ensure that the benefits of all SBA programs flow directly to small businesses so that they can do what they do best: create jobs. Thank you. I look forward to your questions. [The prepared statement of Ms. Mills follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chair Landrieu. Thank you very much, and will you submit to the record the list of the companies that you have just debarred and disqualified? Ms. Mills. Yes. Chair Landrieu. Thank you. Ms. Gustafson. STATEMENT OF HON. PEGGY E. GUSTAFSON, INSPECTOR GENERAL, OFFICE OF INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION Ms. Gustafson. Chair Landrieu, Ranking Member Snowe, Senator Paul, good morning. I want to thank you for inviting me again to testify in front of your Committee. As you know, I head the SBA Office of Inspector General, which is a statutorily created independent office established to deter and detect waste, fraud, abuse, and inefficiencies in SBA programs and operations. My verbal testimony today is going to focus on three areas: an update of my testimony from the March 3rd hearing of this year regarding fraud in SBA's preferential contracting programs; our concerns about fraud and abuse in SBA's business loan programs; and some areas of potential cost savings in SBA's programs, as mentioned in the letter that we had sent to you in March. As noted in my March 3rd testimony, my office remains very concerned about fraud in SBA's preferential contracting programs. The bottom line is that when ineligible companies are fraudulently obtaining Federal contracts that are meant for small and disadvantaged companies, the congressional intent behind these programs is thwarted and legitimate companies are deprived of the contracting and the business development opportunity that these programs are supposed to provide. Therefore, I want to commend the Chair, the Ranking Member, and other members of this Committee for their support and sponsorship of S. 633, the Small Business Contracting Fraud Prevention Act of 2011. I believe this is very important legislation that will greatly assist my office's efforts in deterring, detecting, and prosecuting false statements made to obtain these contracts. I also want to recognize SBA's recently introduced plan to promote suspensions and debarments. This plan provides for greater training of SBA personnel to recognize suspicious activity and envisions better processes for ensuring that this suspicious activity is referred to my office and to agency suspension and debarment officials for necessary action. Since my testimony in March, my office has referred an additional 14 contracting cases for suspension or debarment to SBA. As of this morning, the agency has acted to debar or suspend the wrongdoer in seven of these cases, and we have been advised that the agency will proceed shortly with final decisions on the remaining referrals. I want to mention an audit my office recently conducted of the SBA surveillance review process, which are the on-site reviews that the agency conducts of procuring agency contract files to determine whether procuring agencies are properly awarding and monitoring these preferential contracts that are supposed to be going to small, disadvantaged, and the other preferential contracting programs. This review found that SBA had only evaluated a limited number of procuring offices over the past several years, and it was not using a systematic, thorough, or consistent approach in conducting these reviews. We also found that these review teams were not generally evaluating whether small businesses and 8(a) firms were performing the required percentage of work on set-aside contracts. I was very happy to note that the agency has agreed with most or all of our recommendations, but I would note that there is one final step in the audit process, which is the management decision, which is where SBA tells us what they are going to do to implement these recommendations. And I would gently note that these management decisions are overdue as of today, and it is pretty crucial that we get these management decisions, and I look forward to them because they will really be a framework for what happens next. Another priority for my office is investigating SBA's 7(a) and 504 business loan programs. Our investigations run the gamut from false statements made by borrowers to get these loans to fraud by lenders or fraud by third parties who are involved in the loan process. From October 1, 2008, to the present, in criminal cases related to business loan programs, we have opened 84 investigations of alleged fraud and obtained 114 indictments, 82 guilty pleas and convictions, and restitution, civil fraud, and asset forfeiture recoveries in excess of $91.5 million. We remain concerned about fraud by third parties in 7(a) loans, notably loan brokers, loan packagers, consultants, and other loan agents. Although loan agents often serve a very valuable purpose in the loan process because they work with the borrower to connect the borrower to a lender who will help them with the SBA loan and help them get an SBA loan, there have been unscrupulous agents who have exploited the program through sometimes very far-reaching fraudulent schemes. In the last decade alone, my office has obtained convictions and guilty pleas in cases involving loan agent fraud, where the amount of loans involved were hundreds of millions of dollars. We have had for several years a management challenge that the SBA track the loan agent activity and institute some enforcement processes to kick bad agents out of the program. They are getting there. They are beginning to track the activity. They do have the enforcement process in place, but this has to be a big priority for SBA, and we look forward to this getting finished. As noted, I did submit a letter in March with some suggestions for savings. I believe that letter was submitted with my written testimony, and I welcome any questions, and again, thank you. [The prepared statement of Ms. Gustafson follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chair Landrieu. Thank you. Let us go ahead and start with the loan agents issue. Ms. Mills, what would your response be? Do we know how many loan agents are out there? Are they certified by your office? What actions are you all taking to crack down on loan agents that are acting inappropriately securing loans to small businesses? Ms. Mills. Well, Senator, as you know, we have implemented the same three-part process that I described for contracting fraud, waste, and abuse on our loan fraud, waste, and abuse. So we are making sure that those who come to get our loans are, in fact, eligible, that we have oversight along the way in the process, and that we go after bad actors. This falls in the third category where we have partnered on this loan agent issue very closely with the IG's office to ramp up the aggressive enforcement against bad actors, in this case these loan agents. We are of like mind and aggressively pursuing this and will not stand for it. This has been a problem that existed quite a bit in the past, and when we came on board, we went after it quite seriously. Chair Landrieu. Do we have any idea how many loan agents, unscrupulous loan agents, there may be out there, Ms. Gustafson? Ms. Gustafson. It is really early in the process to have a handle on that. As noted, we for several years said what we need is a central database such that should SBA or one of our criminal investigators find a loan that just has all kinds of problems, it would be incredibly helpful to know whether there was an agent involved in that process, because sometimes the fraud is happening with the agents. And it has been, I think, 7 years coming that it has been a management challenge, and there is no doubt that the agency agrees with us now that Administrator Mills is very supportive of this process. My understanding of where we are is they are finally beginning to capture that information. It is finally somewhere. It is beginning to be somewhere. As a side note, at first they were not capturing, for example, the loan numbers along with the loan agent. That becomes not very useful. But that has been fixed. Chair Landrieu. Because we can pinpoint exactly what banks the 1,000 or 1,200 out of the 8,000 banks are making loans through the SBA programs. We know exactly what banks those are. Ms. Gustafson. That is right. Chair Landrieu. We also know the volume of loans that each of those banks puts out every year. So I think this would be relatively easy to try to track this information and eliminate the bad actors from this program. Ms. Gustafson. I think so. In general, there has always been a piece of paper somewhere with who the loan agent was. This centralization is new, and it is crucial because I will tell you, we have cases where the loan may be in Mississippi, and the loan agent for some unknown reason is in Florida. So, you know, there has to be a central database; otherwise, they are going to go undetected. Certainly the schemes will. Chair Landrieu. Okay. Well, I will look forward to seeing how we are advancing on that. On the general programs, in the March 15th letter that we sent to the SBA regarding improper payment rate, which I think is across the whole agency, the Inspector General said the rate could be as high as 27 percent. When you all reviewed the same data, you said the estimate is 1 to 2 percent. So there is a great disparity there, and if we could try to get some clarification on that with you two sitting at the same table this morning, that would be helpful. I do not know which one of you wants to go first. Ms. Mills. This is a conversation actually that we have on a fairly routine basis. There is a disagreement about the definition about improper payments. So we are referring to not actually the payment, but a loan that was a loan properly done. And if the T is not crossed and the I is not dotted, in one definition that is improper. In another definition we might draw the line in a different place and say that is a foot fault, and that it can be corrected, and the intent was honest and proper and that the loan guarantee should be honored or the loan was proper. In the past situation there was no good dialogue on this issue, and when we came on board, we started a very constructive dialogue. We have made tremendous progress. There is still progress and conversation to be had, and we are working, I think--but Peg can tell you--constructively and aggressively on this issue. Chair Landrieu. Okay. Ms. Gustafson. Ms. Gustafson. Yes, let me quibble a little bit and then talk about progress that has been made. There is no question that both the agency and the IG did a review of the 7(a) improper payment rate for fiscal year 2008, and what you cited, Senator Landrieu, were the two rates that we came up with-- vastly different. And, yes, we did begin a discussion about where we were disagreeing and why, and some of it is fundamental questions of what is and what is not under the law an improper payment. And that is a very constructive conversation to have that I think will inform the next improper payment review, which is going to begin shortly, both by the agency and by ourselves. The one thing I would note is we have been having this discussion for about 2 years, and so we are slowly getting there. I am concerned about the speed, or lack thereof, that it is taking to reach these decisions, but I do think as we get there, we will come closer. And I would note that, in general, where we go so far, for what it is worth, they are coming closer to us. And so my quibble is we never say it is an improper payment if a T is not crossed or an I is not dotted. It is always a material issue. But we are working through those, and we will get there, but it needs to be done much quicker than it is being done. Chair Landrieu. Okay. And, finally, I know my time has expired, but I will acknowledge Senator Snowe in just a moment. One of my strong beefs with the agency actually is in overcollecting funds, approximately $925 million in CDBG block grant funding that the agency, in my view, collected aggressively without warrant and unnecessarily by requiring victims--in this case of Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, or other natural disasters--to immediately repay back their 30-year SBA loan the minute they received the CDBG grant to rebuild their home. I am going to try to fix this legislatively because while it might be too late for the people of Louisiana, it is very timely for the people of Joplin, Missouri, who are going to be experiencing this exact same horrific nightmare, where they finally after 6 months get an SBA loan to help rebuild their home, which they might have had insurance or might not. The minute they receive a $30,000 grant from some other agency of the Federal Government, the SBA grabs the grant money to repay itself, leaving the homeowner with absolutely nothing to rebuild. So I am not sure how Joplin, Missouri, which lost 30 percent of their city, 8,000 structures were destroyed, including hospitals, homes, and businesses, but I hope it works better for them than it worked for us. Chair Landrieu. I am going to be pursuing this, and I just want to put everybody on notice that I am going to try to find--because HUD actually agrees with me, and so does either the GAO or the Inspector General, where HUD cites receipt of partial benefit from a major disaster or emergency shall not preclude provision of additional Federal assistance for any part of a loss or need for which benefits have not been provided. This is in the Stafford Act already. So we have had conversations about it, but I just want to go on the record that I think it is something, with the Chairman of the Subcommittee here on Disaster Response and Preparedness, I thought I would bring it up before Senator Pryor, and the two of us are going to work on some sort of appropriate legislative fix. Senator Snowe. Senator Snowe. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just on that last issue on the improper payments, is it difficult to define what an improper payment is? Ms. Gustafson. Well, it requires some analysis. Especially in the loan area, it is not as easy as just saying did we double pay for a widget or was there some wrongdoing there. So it definitely takes some analysis. We were able to do it, and as you know, it can be difficult, but we were able to do it. Senator Snowe. I guess on a lot of these issues, Administrator Mills and Ms. Gustafson, what is in place, what is actually operational and implemented, because I think that that is still not clear on some of the enforcement mechanisms. Now, Administrator Mills, you mentioned certification, enforcement, and monitoring procedures that you have put in place to respond to all these issues. Have they been actually implemented? Are they in play now? Ms. Mills. Yes, they have. Senator Snowe. They have been. Are you satisfied with those procedures? Ms. Gustafson. We are pleased and on paper are satisfied with the enforcement procedures against loan agents, against third parties who people obtain Government contracts. That is in place. To the best of my knowledge, it has not been implemented yet, but to give credit, that was years in coming. For years the agency just did not even bother to have enforcement procedures in place, and then we would say, ``You need to do something against the loan agent.'' And they would say, ``We do not have any enforcement procedures in place so we cannot.'' So they are there, and we were very, very pleased by that. They are brand spanking new, but they are there. Now, what is, I believe, not quite fully in place is the overhaul of the suspension and debarment process, which is to say they have a very strong plan, I think, to get serious about suspension and debarment and to as an agency become more of an enforcement agency than they were before. It is in its nascent stages, which is to say they are doing training, but I do think the agency is going to need to send a strong message that they are serious, hold people accountable for not just knowing this stuff but making sure that referrals are made and things like that. That has not happened yet, and it needs to happen soon. Senator Snowe. So, Administrator Mills, on the question of the task force, is that the purpose? Ms. Mills. Yes, the task force on---- Senator Snowe. Right. Is that in play now? Is that implemented? Ms. Mills. The task force has been in play for a while. It completed its work and recommendations. We implemented these recommendations. We are, as Peg said, working very closely in the beginning stages. We have begun to demonstrate on the last round of cases that were brought up, every single one has been pursued through these procedures, and we plan to continue to be aggressive. Senator Snowe. I think we have to be. I think we have to send a very strong message, and there has to be a clear and delineated process by which this all occurs, both in the implementation of these procedures to detect and to avert any potential fraud, but also on the other end is making sure that the SBA personnel are trained, informed, you know, aggressive in the implementation, and that there is a consistent standard. Now, in changing this culture--because, you are right, Ms. Gustafson, it has built up over the years. In the article that the Chair was referring to that appeared in the Post back in March, it said, ``D.C. insiders can reap fortunes from Federal programs for small businesses'' and that Government officials were not monitoring contracts for compliance with rules. There is no question that the report exposed some glaring deficiencies in contract oversight with officials, but what was disturbing in this article--and that is why I want you to answer it, Administrator Mills--was when the Pentagon said that the responsibility for oversight fell to SBA, yet an SBA spokesperson was quoted as saying that the SBA, and I quote, ``long ago transferred that authority to the Pentagon and other agencies.'' Now, I know that is not your attitude, Administrator Mills, but I think that it is very clear, the Federal Acquisition Regulations require that the SBA be the oversight agency. But can you tell me what is happening to bolster that oversight and that everybody in SBA understands that it is uniquely and singularly their responsibility? Ms. Mills. Yes, the oversight for the Government contract program, which, as you know, is $100 billion and multiple-- every agency--is SBA's responsibility. I believe the comment was referring to the agencies that actually do the contracts, and we jointly--we are responsible, but we jointly need to monitor. There are 30,000 contracting agents out there making these decisions, and there are 8 million individual contracts that get done every year. So we have in the Small Business Jobs Act and on a continual basis increased and beefed up the way we train our partners at the Federal agencies to detect issues, whether it is in certification issues, whether it is issues in a small business that does not meet the qualifications or anything improper. And then as we have talked about, we go after the bad actors. So this is an ongoing partnership. We appreciate the fact that the Small Business Jobs Act gave us some additional powers to do this more effectively. We are continuing to implement the improvements in this, and there is no question about the commitment at the SBA to this project. Senator Snowe. My time is up. Thank you. Chair Landrieu. Thank you. Senator Paul. Senator Paul. Thank you. The NFIB did a survey recently of small businesses and found that the number one concern was not really access to capital. It was taxes and regulations. I am a big fan of small business. I think we should do everything possible to help small business. I was in a small business before I came to the Senate. The President wants to increase taxes on those who make more than $250,000. A lot of those are small businesses. Do you think that is a good idea for small business, Ms. Mills? Ms. Mills. Actually only 2 percent of those who make over $250,000 are small businesses or report over $250,000 of business income, and some of that is from unrelated business activities. But to your point about this survey and removing barriers to small business, I think that is very much a shared goal, particularly on the removal of excess regulation. We are working quite aggressively on that as well. Senator Paul. With regard to why we have small business loans, you indicated to me yesterday evening that it is a market failure. I guess the problem I have is that when you say the market fails, it to me seems somewhat arbitrary because if the market is failing to give loans, maybe the market just decided these people were not good credit risks or maybe they went to the bank and the bank said, ``You know what? I like so- and-so-'s project better.'' And that is sort of how we would do it if we had a voluntary society. This sort of arrangement, those people who are told no by the bank and then they are told yes by Government because Government decides, ``We like your project,'' I guess that to me just seems somewhat dictatorial and contradictory to the freedom of the marketplace. How do you define ``market failure''? How do you say that the market is failing to give these people loans and they should get loans instead of the rest of us deciding in the marketplace? Ms. Mills. Well, I enjoyed our conversation, and, as you know, many of these are economic terms. But specifically to the SBA program, let me give you an example. When the market is functioning and you can get a loan from a bank, there is no reason for you to get an SBA guarantee or taxpayer involvement because you can get a loan. But if you are a good small business and you cannot get access and opportunity, we are able to provide these guarantees. In the market, you go to a bank, the bank makes that decision, and so it is not sort of a top- down from the Government; it is a bottom-up from the small business. The example is when the credit crunch hit in October 2008, these banks shut their doors to small business. You could not get a loan, even if you had previously been creditworthy. And we were able to put $42 billion into the hands of the small businesses at a very low cost and saved--I travel all around the country, and I was in rural Arkadelphia at a saw mill, and a husband-and-wife team looked at me and they said, ``You saved my business.'' This was a part where their local community bank, whom they had had a long relationship with, just could not make that loan. It is a good loan. We have very low default rates on our loans, as you know. And we are able to step in on these, let us call them ``market gaps,'' to provide access and opportunity to viable, important small businesses who create jobs. Senator Paul. I guess my point in response would just be that you can see that and you can see how you helped that person, and it seems really good and we feel good about ourselves because we helped this person whose business would have gone out--you know, they would have gone bankrupt. What we do not see is the $100,000 you gave to them did not go to someone else. The unseen is what we do not see. We see the seen, but we do not see the unseen. And then when the market directs those, they direct them on everybody getting together and interacting in a voluntary way; whereas, the decision by Government is done involuntarily and done by a few select set of people. And I think there is danger for those select set of people making the decisions based on either political reasons or other reasons rather than the validity of whether or not it is a good enterprise. One of the things that when I hear from people about access to capital they are concerned about is we have just passed thousands of new regulations through Dodd-Frank. Most people think this is making it harder to get capital. Do you think Dodd-Frank is making it easier or harder for small businesses to get capital? Ms. Mills. At the moment it is not clear that there is an appreciable effect on small business access to capital from those regulations. We know that small businesses have been concerned by the regulators' making more oversight on banking institutions that had had issues. We are working very hard with third-party regulators to make sure that they give clear direction to their banks so that small businesses who have previously been creditworthy are considered appropriately. Senator Paul. And I guess my final--do I have another minute? Chair Landrieu. Go ahead. Senator Paul. My final point would just be that when you went in and you intervened in the crisis after the housing market collapsed, that is sort of like putting Band-Aids on things, and you found problems. But it is really not addressing how we got to those problems. Why did we have all these calamities? Why did we have housing prices that were going up 20 percent a year? Why did we have an exponential rise in housing prices? And, really, that had to do with bigger problems. It had to do with the Federal Reserve setting the interest rate below the market rate of interest. It had to do with Congress telling people they should have home loans when they had no downpayment. People would purchase a $160,000 home with no downpayment, and the next year it was worth $180,000, and they said, ``Put a swimming pool in. You have got $20,000 in equity.'' So we have to diagnose the problem correctly before we just keep giving people loans, and I think there was a rash of failures, and stepping in seemed to be noble. But I think we have to remember the seen and the unseen, and the unseen is the money that has to come from somewhere. We have an enormous debt. Our debt equals 100 percent of our economy. People have estimated we are losing 1 million jobs a year because of the burden of our debt. So these things cost money. I just hope we will all pay attention to that. Thank you. Chair Landrieu. Thank you, Senator. The Senator from Arkansas. Senator Pryor. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Let me start with you, if I might, Ms. Mills. On May 10 you wrote me a letter, and you said that you are committed to continuing the review of SBA programs to eliminate overlap and duplication. You also stated that OMB is working with all Federal agencies to better organize Federal programs and functions. So can you give us an update today on how this review process is being performed and how the members of your staff are involved in the review and whether OMB and SBA are finding program efficiencies? Ms. Mills. Well, as you know, we do have a continuous process, and it was driven around the 2012 budget for eliminating duplicative programs and reducing costs and focusing current programs. So we did offer up a series of programs for elimination, and they included the Drug-Free Workplace, they included selected special purpose counseling grants, and they included the PRIME program. It was not because these programs were bad, but it was because we found other ways to deliver some of those services more effectively, notably in PRIME through our micro-loan intermediaries. We continue to look at how to do the things that we do more effectively and deliver that money. The first criteria is: Does the money go directly into something that gets in the hands of small businesses and improves their situation, allows them to grow and create jobs? And the second criteria that we use is: Or is it creating oversight and elimination of fraud, waste, and abuse? And those are the two criteria. If it does not match that, then that is something that we cannot afford to do. Senator Pryor. And do you feel like that your work is done there? Or do you feel like you are still looking for ways to find more efficiencies? Ms. Mills. Well, it is a continuous improvement process. Senator Pryor. Let me ask about sort of a different area of that continuous improvement that I hope you are working on, and that would be--when I look at your SBA loan data, a few minutes ago you said that you have a very low default rate on SBA loans, which is great. But when I look at your data for fiscal year 2010, you wrote off more than $2.6 billion in bad loans. Am I reading that right? Ms. Mills. No, that actually is not that year's loans. Senator Pryor. Okay. So tell me how that works. Ms. Mills. When I referred to our low default rates, we have a subsidy rate that we calculate that is based on our previous loan rates. Generally that runs around 5 percent. In recent times, because of the economic recession, those loan rates for us and for all financial institutions have climbed. They have more than doubled in many situations. The reason for that is that we take all the collateral, and the collateral that were pledged in the 2005, 2006, 2007 cohorts was on inflated real estate prices. So now, as we go to collect on that collateral, the value is not there. So there are many more losses on those loans than one would have projected when the collateral was high. I want to make sure that you know that this is not the current loans or the loans that were given in 2009 and 2010. This is really a cohort from a day where things were quite-- bank lending was quite aggressive and real estate was quite high. That is a large part of the dollars that you have described. I believe the other piece of the dollars you have described is the tail end of the Participating Securities program which was canceled and eliminated in 2004. Senator Pryor. Okay. And even with all that said--and I appreciate that clarification--it looks to me, if I understand your numbers correctly, that you have not been able to recoup on those bad loans. In other words, it just seems like you are writing those off. I think I see a figure here of $107 million that you have been able to recoup. Am I understanding that right? Ms. Mills. I am not familiar with the $107 million, but we are happy to look at it. We very aggressively go after recouping, but as I have just said, right now on the real estate portions the value is not there. Senator Pryor. Right. But will you ever recoup any of that loss, or do you just write off the entire loan amount? Ms. Mills. We collect. The first thing we do is we try to see if the borrower can get back into payment, and if not and we go after the loan, we recoup everything we can. Senator Pryor. Okay. Well, we ought to follow up on that more, but, Madam Chairman, I am out of time so thank you. Chair Landrieu. Thank you, and I just want to follow up on that. I was looking at those documents myself in preparation for this meeting. My question is: Do you have all the authority you need under the current law to try to recoup as much debt that is owed to us as possible? And if not, are you prepared to ask for additional authority? Ms. Mills. That is a very good question, and I would like to come back to you on that after a consultation. Chair Landrieu. Okay. I would really like to pursue that, because I understand the market collapsed and these loans were made prior to this Administration coming on. But, again, the taxpayers are still on the hook for approximately $2 billion in loans that were made prior to this administration that have gone sour. And we need to try to figure out a way to recoup that money if we can, even if it takes a little extraordinary financial management or oversight or some sort of workout schedule that may not be available to you. So take a look at that and get back to me. That is my final question, Senator Snowe, and then I would like to go to the second panel, if possible. Senator Snowe. Yes, thank you. Administrator Mills, I just think it is important to understand what exactly the agency is doing with respect to the process on improper payments. Now, I understand Ms. Gustafson is saying that you may have the process in place, but it is not moving quickly. And I think we need to have a response to this Committee, in writing or whatever, to understand fully how this is going to be administered and to respond quickly in dealing with those improper payments, because I do think that that has to be acted upon. And there should not be any ambiguity with respect to that. Ms. Mills. Thank you. We are happy to respond. One thing I will note is that we are starting--what we decided to do together to move on exactly the issue you describe is that the agency suggested that we conduct voluntarily another audit, and then after we do our audit, that the IG will audit our audit and see if we can use that process to come to agreement on what is proper, what is improper, where we draw the lines. And so we have actively begun that process to get to the bottom of the questions that you raise. Senator Snowe. Well, I know that in a 1-year period the SBA made approximately $234 million in improper payments in the 7(a) loan and the audit recommended a corrective action plan. So do you agree that this is the plan, Ms. Gustafson? Ms. Gustafson. They are still responding and working, as you noted, and I would also note I agree with Administrator Mills. The concurrent or almost concurrent review of improper payments will be helpful. But, again, we are still waiting for answers on fiscal year 2008, and I am concerned that if we have not reached agreement on fiscal year 2008, that may very well impair our ability to reach agreement on 2010. Our fiscal year 2008 audit came out in July of 2009, and so they say it has been over a year. I would say it is almost 2 years that we are waiting literally on their decisions on the same loans we looked at. Senator Snowe. So what is the problem, Administrator Mills? What is the problem here? Ms. Mills. I am happy to look into it, but my impression is that we are working constructively. We just do not agree. Senator Snowe. Well, I just hope that we can find some agreement and move forward because, obviously, this is languishing in terms of improper payments, collection, corrective action, enforcement action, and so on. We have got to get a standardized process in place, that this happens, you know, without delay. Furthermore, on the Inspector General's surveillance review process, again, this is another issue. You made recommendations, Ms. Gustafson, to SBA on deficiencies that were identified by the surveillance review teams. Ms. Gustafson. Right. Senator Snowe. And according to the SBA, there was a lack of staff resources and competing priorities preventing the SBA from doing so. So what is the issue here, Administrator Mills? Do you have enough people to do what you need to do to provide the oversight of these contracting activities? Ms. Mills. Well, I---- Senator Snowe. I mean, I gather that the SBA's contracting office conducted reviews of nearly 30 contracting activities which represented less than 1 percent of all small business contracting activities last year. So that is minuscule in terms of the overall, let alone, you know, the dimension of the dollar amount. So what is the issue here? Ms. Mills. Well, I think this is a very interesting new-- this is a new finding that the IG has come to us. The IG is referring to surveillance reviews that we do on the rest of our sister agencies. There is no statutory obligation to do any of these reviews. In fact, they were proactively begun by us as a way to make sure that our sister agencies who were doing these procurement activities were on the ball, they were more educated, that they were--it was part of an oversight. Now, we did this within the resources that we had at the moment so we began, and we think it is a positive step. We have asked for 24 additional personnel across fraud, waste, and abuse to augment these kinds of activities. Remember, there are 30,000 contracting offices, and there are 8 million of these individual activities. So we have, I think, put a good foot forward to begin this, and we have to understand, you know--we certainly would like to increase it. We think it is a positive thing to do. We are not staffed and it is not part of the overall statutory obligation that we had been staffed to go after. But we do think it is important, and we have begun. Senator Snowe. Well, I think the question is on the statutory obligation. As I understand it, the SBA would be the prime agency for SBA contracting. Is that correct? Ms. Mills. Yes. Senator Snowe. I mean, even if you collaborate with other agencies, but ultimately it is in your purview. Would you agree? Ms. Mills. Yes, we agree. Ms. Gustafson. Let me just briefly, Senator Snowe, kind of talk to your point. What we are talking about here goes directly to what you had mentioned on the Washington Post article, which I think is a huge problem in Government contracting, which is procuring agencies think SBA is doing one thing, and SBA thinks that it is up to the procuring agencies to do it. And SBA has become exponentially smaller since the time when they used to do it. But I do not think it is getting done. I do not think it is getting done well. And so there needs to be a very robust conversation not just with SBA at the table, but I think we need as a Government to figure out how we are going to make sure that these contracts are being monitored and go into the---- Senator Snowe. That is a good point, and that is the issue here, and that is what is obvious. We have to do something to either clarify that to make sure that this is a primary obligation obviously with the agency, the contracting agency, but the procurement agencies have to commit to it as well. Ms. Gustafson. Absolutely. Senator Snowe. So we will have to figure that out. I would welcome some ideas on that question if we have to change it through legislation. Ms. Gustafson. We would love to work with you. Procuring agencies want to get their contracts done, and they need their stuff, so---- Senator Snowe. Right. But they have no responsibility for the ultimate contract. Thank you. Ms. Gustafson. Thank you. Ms. Mills. Thank you. Chair Landrieu. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Let us move to the second panel. Thank you for your testimony. Our second panel today will be William Shear, Director of Financial Markets and Community Investment at the U.S. Government Accountability Office. Bill has directed substantial bodies of work addressing the Small Business Administration. Kevin Baron has been the Director of Government Affairs for the American Small Business League since 2007. In his capacity he coordinated the organization's government affairs activities in Washington, D.C. Tad DeHaven is a Budget Analyst on the federal and state budget issues for the Cato Institute. Previously he was Deputy Director of the Indiana Office of Management and Budget. Fran Pastore is the Founder and President and CEO of Women's Business Development Council, for more than 14 years, a leader of entrepreneurial training for women in Connecticut. And finally we have Mr. Greg Clarkson, who currently serves as Executive Vice President and Manager for BBVA Compass SBA Division, formerly Compass Bank. Clarkson is active in industry trade associations, and the National Association of Government Guaranteed Lenders. I have asked you all to limit your opening statements to 3 minutes, and then we will do a round of questioning. We will start with you, Mr. Shear. If you could pull the microphone closer to you, please. Thank you. Mr. Shear. Can you hear me now? Chair Landrieu. Yes. Mr. Shear. Okay. Great. STATEMENT OF WILLIAM B. SHEAR, DIRECTOR OF FINANCIAL MARKETS AND COMMUNITY INVESTMENT, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE Mr. Shear. Chair Landrieu, Ranking Member Snowe, and members of the Committee, it is a pleasure to be here today. My written statement discusses our work on potential duplication and fragmentation in economic development programs as well as our work on internal controls in contracting and business development programs. This oral statement is devoted to our work on potential duplication. In Q&A I would be glad to answer questions on either body of work as well as other topics in this hearing where we have conducted evaluations, such as SBA loan guarantee programs. Our recent work on economic development programs includes the information on 80 programs at four agencies; SBA, Agriculture, Commerce, and HUD. SBA administers 19 of the 80 programs. Absent a common definition for economic development, we had previously developed a list of nine activities most often associated with economic development. For example, the agencies administer 54 programs that fund entrepreneurial efforts, which includes business development. All 19 SBA programs can fund such efforts. We found that the design of each of these 80 programs appears to overlap with that of at least one other in terms of the economic activities they can fund. Here I want to stress that our focus to date has been on the design of the programs. In other words, we have evaluated the permitted uses of funds and have not as of yet drilled down to see how each program's funds are actually distributed among various uses. In addition to addressing overlap, we focused on: one, collaborative efforts agencies should consider using to maximize performance; and, two, actions the agencies take to measure outcomes. Here we have found that Commerce, HUD, SBA, and USDA appear to have taken actions to implement some collaborative practices but have offered little evidence so far that they have taken steps to develop compatible policies or procedures with other Federal agencies or to search for opportunities to leverage physical and administrative resources with their Federal partners. And we have found that the agencies appear to collect only limited information on program outcomes--information that is necessary to determine whether the potential for overlap and fragmentation is resulting in ineffective or inefficient programs. Building on our past work, we are in the planning phase of a new, more in-depth review that will focus on a subset of these 80 programs. Our current thinking is that we may have a focus on the 54 programs that fund entrepreneurial efforts, and this would include all 19 SBA economic development programs. We plan to evaluate how funds are used, identify additional opportunities for collaboration, determine and apply criteria for program consolidation, and assess how program performance is measured. Chair Landrieu, Ranking Member Snowe, members of the Committee, this concludes my prepared statement. I would be happy to answer any questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Shear follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chair Landrieu. Thank you very much. Mr. Baron. STATEMENT OF KEVIN BARON, DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, AMERICAN SMALL BUSINESS LEAGUE Mr. Baron. Thank you, Madam Chair, Ranking Member Snowe, Senator Paul. My name is Kevin Baron. I am the Director of Government Affairs for the American Small Business League. We are an independent small business advocacy organization that focuses on creating the greatest opportunities for small businesses to work with the Federal Government and on ending the diversion of billions of dollars a month in Federal small business contracts to large corporations. The American Small Business League reaches a constituency of approximately 100,000 small businesses nationwide, the majority of whom are small Federal contractors or small businesses that are wanting to work with the Federal government. Considering the current economic climate, small businesses are a vital asset to the U.S. economy, so we must not only ensure that they are being provided all possible help, but the greatest opportunity to effectively work within the Federal marketplace. According to the latest data from the U.S. Census Bureau, small businesses are currently creating over 90 percent of all net new jobs. Furthermore, small businesses are responsible for over half of the GDP and more than 50 percent of the non-farm private sector workforce. And, historically, small businesses are our Nation's driver for job creation and the creators of the economic growth necessary to pull our country out of times of recession. This is key to understanding the important role that small business contracting programs play to the overall health of our Nation's economy. In 2005, the Small Business Administration Office of Inspector General released Report 5-15 that stated, ``One of the most important challenges facing the Small Business Administration and the entire Federal Government today is that large businesses are receiving small business procurement awards and agencies are receiving credit for these awards.'' For the past 6 consecutive years, the SBA IG continues to list the same issue as one of the agency's top management challenges. In addition to Report 5-15, since 2003 there has been a whole series of Federal investigations from the GAO and various other Inspectors General showing areas of fraud and abuse within these small business contracting programs. This fraud and abuse has materialized in the diversion of billions of dollars in small business contracts to large companies, multinational corporations, Fortune 500 firms, and businesses otherwise not qualified as small. We have conducted extensive analysis on our own of this data, a lot of which was submitted with my written testimony, and I would be more than happy to discuss that in greater detail if necessary. Small business contracting programs are credited with helping millions of small businesses nationwide, and in these times when we are focusing on the area of fiscal responsibility, small business contracting programs are a major answer to this. Federal small business contracting programs are a deficit- neutral way of creating jobs and stimulating economic growth. The programs are already in place; the infrastructure already exists; the money that the agencies spend is already being budgeted. The Government does not produce computers. It does not construct buildings. So there will always be contracting out for goods and services. Thus, these programs are a vital way to drive demand back into the hands of our small firms. Senator Landrieu, in February of last year you specifically stated, ``Government contracts are perhaps one of the easiest and most inexpensive ways the Government can help immediately increase sales for America's entrepreneurs, giving them the tools they need to keep our economy strong and create jobs. By increasing contracts to small businesses by just 1 percent, we can create more than 100,000 new jobs--and today, we need those jobs more than ever.'' I could not agree with you more on that statement. Based on that estimate, fixing some of these programs could result in the creation of over 1 million jobs. I know I am short on time. Let me wrap up really quick, please. Our understanding is that some agency employees and SBA officials believe that the Government's 23-percent procurement goal is not achievable. I am here to state that that belief could not be further from the truth. And, in fact, the Government's small business goal can be achieved or surpassed by simply implementing a series of targeted reforms to small business programs. I will just outline three real quick steps. One is to pass a Senate companion version of the Fairness and Transparency in Contracting Act. This was a bill introduced in the previous Congress by Congressman Hank Johnson of Georgia. He plans on reintroducing this bill in the House again this year. It will shut down a major loophole that has allowed large firms to get small business contracts. Secondly, to establish a small business set-aside program for task orders placed against GSA schedules or other Government Wide Acquisition Contracts, or GWACs, or large Government contract vehicles. Years ago, Congress passed legislation mandating that any contract with a value less than $100,000 be specifically set-aside for small businesses. Shortly after passage, the FAR Council passed a rule exempting GSA schedule contracts from that, and let me say that contracting data shows that over one-fifth of all Federal contract actions are under $100,000; however, a majority of those contracts go to large firms. So simply removing that exemption and putting a set-aside rule in place for other GWACs could significantly increase the pool of opportunities for small businesses to work with the Government and would help in achieving or superseding that 23-percent goal. Lastly, we ask for and applaud the introduction of S. 633 and push for the passage of that legislation. It creates some teeth within the law and provides tools for various agency officials such as the SBA IG as well as outside advocates to strictly enforce fraud in contracting programs. Contractors need to know that there is punishment for committing fraud and that that will be followed up on. Let me finish please by stating again---- Chair Landrieu. Mr. Baron, you are already 2 minutes over. I am sorry. Mr. Baron. Okay. Chair Landrieu. It was wonderful testimony, but I have to be fair to everyone, and thank you so much. Mr. Baron. I understand. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Baron follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chair Landrieu. I really appreciate it. Mr. DeHaven. STATEMENT OF TAD DEHAVEN, BUDGET ANALYST, CATO INSTITUTE Mr. DeHaven. Chair Landrieu, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me here to testify today regarding the Small Business Administration. Chair Landrieu. Is your microphone on? Is your button pressed? Mr. DeHaven. There we go. Thank you. Chair Landrieu. There we go. Mr. DeHaven. Most Americans correctly recognize that Washington does a poor job of managing their money. The Cato Institute has documented countless examples of waste, fraud, and abuse at its website, www.DownsizingGovernment.org. Policymakers on both sides of the aisle recognize that examples of waste, fraud, and abuse do not sit well with the American people and are, therefore, constantly promising that they will work to eliminate Government waste. What few in Washington want to acknowledge is that waste, fraud, and abuse always comes with Government programs--the same way a Happy Meal always comes with a toy and a drink. For decades, there have been efforts to end such abuses, but Federal programs are extremely complex and they deliver benefits to thousands or millions of recipients. As a result, Government programs are always chasing their tail. In the private sector, businesses have a financial incentive to stop abuses before they happen. No such incentive exists with Government programs. The Small Business Administration is no stranger to waste, fraud, and abuse. By the mid-1970s, the agency had earned the nickname ``Small Scandal Administration.'' Now, we have already discussed today many examples of waste, fraud, and abuse, duplication, and inefficiency, so we will move along, therefore. And as I discussed, however, Government programs and waste go hand in hand. Generally speaking, the more the Government spends, the more taxpayer dollars will be wasted. Therefore, the best way to rein in waste and inefficiencies is to rein in the size and scope of Government. Economic development subsidies are not a proper role of the Federal Government. Indeed, what policymakers innocuously refer to as ``economic development'' is just a form of central planning. Central planning can end badly for the general public, as demonstrated by the recent housing collapse and economic downturn, which is a direct result of distortions in the housing market fostered by Government policies. In addition to the taxpayer costs, there are other problems with SBA-style economic development or what is called ``corporate welfare. First, corporate welfare creates an uneven playing field. By aiding some businesses, corporate welfare puts other businesses at a disadvantage, which distorts markets. For example, small businesses that do not receive a loan backed by the SBA are disadvantaged because they must compete against a business that did receive Government backing. Second, corporate welfare programs duplicate activities that are routinely, provided in private markets, such as lending. If such commercial-oriented activities are useful, then private markets should be able to perform them without Government help. Third, corporate welfare generates an unhealthy relationship between businesses and Government. Corporate welfare creates special interests that work to protect their Government-granted privileges. Privileged interests have a strong incentive to build organized groups to lobby Congress to expand their benefits. These groups set up camp near Capitol Hill to advocate their issues, and many policymakers become convinced of the merits of special interest causes after hearing about them year after year. At the same time, average citizens do not have a strong incentive to battle against particular subsidies because each program costs just a small part of their total tax bill. In conclusion, many of the problems with the SBA that have been discussed today have been discussed for decades. There is only one way to eliminate those problems, and that is to abolish the Small Business Administration. The United States grew to become the economic envy of the world with a small central Government that largely left business development to the private sector. The dramatic ascent of the American economy did not come about as a result of small business subsidies and central planning from Washington. We should dispense with Government favoritism to small businesses and large businesses, and allow America's entrepreneurs to compete on a level playing field serving their customers. Thank you very much. [The prepared statement of Mr. DeHaven follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chair Landrieu. Thank you very much. Ms. Pastore. STATEMENT OF FRAN PASTORE, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, WOMEN'S BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT COUNCIL, STAMFORD, CT Ms. Pastore. Thank you, Madam Chair Landrieu, Ranking Member Snowe, and Committee members, for taking the time to bring much-needed attention to this very crucial issue facing entrepreneurs. I am honored to speak before you today regarding the Small Business Administration. My name is Fran Pastore. I am the Founder, President, and CEO of the Women's Business Development Council. I have been actively engaged in the Women's Business Center program for more than 17 years, and I have a long history of working with SBA and its partners. I come before you today to provide my testimony on a subject that is obviously not only near and dear to me personally, but also to the more than 160,000 clients that are served by the Women's Business Centers funded by SBA. My goal is to illustrate that the Women's Business Center program, which provides a wide variety of services, including training, counseling, and mentoring, is vital to women entrepreneurs of all socioeconomic backgrounds--especially minority and low-income women to whom entrepreneurship provides a logical and reachable goal to economic self-reliance. And it is not duplicative of other SBA programs; rather, the Women's Business Center (WBC) program strives to work in concert with its partners. According to the SBA's Office of Entrepreneurial Development 2010 Impact Report, WBC clients who received 3 or more hours of counseling reported a 47-percent increase in sales. Businesses that receive assistance from Women's Business Center programs have significantly higher survival rates. Women's Business Center programs offer access to all of SBA's financial programs, which have had a major impact on women-owned microbusinesses. During fiscal year 2009, the SBA backed nearly 10,000 loans worth about $2 billion to women business owners, and women entrepreneurs received $26.8 million in investment capital through the SBA's small business investment companies. For a Federal investment of $36.5 million between 2001 and 2003, a total of $500 million in gross business receipts were generated--a 14:1 ratio of business revenues to Federal dollars invested. The WBCs establish long-term relationships with clients and serve them from inception through the life cycle of their businesses; whereas, SBDCs and SCORE chapters are more likely to provide one-time, transactional support. Women's Business Centers provide a variety of services, including counseling, training, peer groups, and mentoring support; whereas, Small Business Development Centers and SCORE chapters are more likely to provide one solution to their clients. Given that the Women's Business Center programs are locally designed and embedded within local economic development groups, Women's Business Center support is more customized and tailored to the needs of particular communities; whereas, SBDCs and SCOREs are more likely to look similar regardless of location. A study conducted by the National Women's Business Council found that there was no difference in program outcomes of Women's Business Centers based on their proximity to Small Business Development Centers or SCORE chapters. The clients they serve and support they provided are different, and the number of firms launched or businesses created are the same. I draw your attention to the 2007 GAO report, which specifically outlines issues within SBA that impede the effectiveness of its relationship with Women's Business Centers. I recommend that SBA continue to implement strategies that eliminate the silos that currently exist between those three organizations: the Women's Business Center program, the SCORE chapters, and the Small Business Development Centers. It is worth a closer look at the SBA organizational infrastructure and how institutional processes can be streamlined for each program rather than simply eliminating an already underfunded program for women that has a proven track record. Let us not destroy the hopes and dreams of women entrepreneurs, many from low-income and minority backgrounds, many of whom are single mothers, working multiple minimum wage jobs, who see the dream of entrepreneurship as a game changer for their future and the future of their families. Owning and operating a microenterprise and developing good financial habits empowers these women to achieve their humble goals: a roof over their heads, a secure future for their children, and a way up. Thus, it has a positive impact on their children and on their communities because they become active contributors to the American economy as taxpayers and by creating jobs for themselves and others. If we eliminate the SBA's valuable programs specifically targeted for women, what are we saying about the value that we place on women in our country and our belief in their ability to play a vital role in turning this economy around? Cutting the Women's Business Center program will compromise SBA's legacy and its ability to help lead the Nation out of this recession and will call into question the fundamental reason for their existence. Chair Landrieu, this concludes my prepared statement. Thank you for your commitment to women-owned businesses and for giving me the opportunity to speak before you today. [The prepared statement of Ms. Pastore follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chair Landrieu. Thank you very much, Ms. Pastore. Mr. Clarkson. STATEMENT OF GREG CLARKSON, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT-SBA LENDING DIVISION OF BBVA COMPASS BANK AND CHAIRMAN OF NAGGL BOARD OF DIRECTORS Mr. Clarkson. Chair Landrieu, Ranking Member Snowe, and members of the Committee, thank you for holding this hearing and inviting me to testify today on the inefficiencies in the SBA process. Thank you also for your ongoing support of the SBA and the recognition that this lending program is vital to economic growth and job creation during good times and bad. The SBA loan programs keep credit flowing and fill a critical gap for small businesses, particularly startup and early stage companies--those that need access to longer-term loans. Since the banking industry is highly regulated as opposed to a free-market environment, arbitrary parameters have limited qualified small business owners' access to credit on reasonable terms. The lender is the one that says yes to the loan. The SBA then in turn says yes to the partial guarantee. The SBA, through its private sector lending partners, now accounts for approximately 70 percent of the outstanding balance of all long-term small business loans made in America, making the agency the single largest provider of long-term capital to U.S. small businesses. That is not a duplication of lending efforts, but it is a vital component to overall capital access. The importance of SBA lending to small businesses is clearly evidenced by the demand for the programs. In the last 2 years the SBA loan programs have delivered $42 billion to small business owners. The 7(a) guarantee program has worked so well and the need is so great that the SBA risks exceeding the authorization level of $17.5 billion this fiscal year. Without legislative relief, this could result in a curtailment of vital credit to small businesses or possibly a shutdown of the 7(a) program availability until that authority is restored. The SBA must have an environment that continues to foster responsible participation by its lending partners. A key component in that effort is an effective lender oversight program. Lender oversight should be a means for the agency to identify variances from established lender benchmarks and to provide a reasonable process for lenders to remedy deficiencies. NAGGL has long advocated an oversight program that is timely, consistent, and constructive while it provides value to the agency, lenders, and taxpayers. Loan risk and losses cannot be eliminated from any lending program; however, they can be managed to reasonable tolerances. The SBA has established a lender oversight structure that combines off-site monitoring and on-site reviews. However, NAGGL believes that there are correctable weaknesses in the current program that need to be addressed. We have some recommendations. First, the SBA should establish and publish commercially reasonable lender performance benchmarks and periodically update them as economic conditions warrant. Second, the SBA should use existing data that is provided by lenders on a monthly basis and that is derived from loan origination to develop an early-warning system that detects on a real-time basis risk in any lender's portfolio. Currently they are using a third-party contractor that uses a predictive scoring model that has questionable results and is expensive to the lenders. Third, the lender oversight program should reach all of the lending partners--large banks, community banks, high-volume and low-volume. NAGGL has raised concerns about the timeliness and transparency of the existing lender oversight program. That includes the timeliness of written on-site reports, PLP renewal timeliness, and also accuracy of lender portal information and ratings. I commend Administrator Mills and Associate Administrator Smits for their efforts to improve the oversight program. What they have done, they have taken some managerial and administrative changes to help improve those issues. The public-private partnership that exists in SBA's lending programs has been and continues to be an example of what can be achieved when the Federal Government and the private sector work together. It is vital to economic growth and job creation to keep SBA's loan programs available to meet the capital needs of tens of thousands of creditworthy small businesses that have limited options. These loan programs merit continued bipartisan support in Congress. Chair Landrieu and Ranking Member Snowe, this concludes my oral statement. I have also submitted written testimony for the record. Thank you for all that has been done for America's small businesses through this Committee and through your efforts. [The prepared statement of Mr. Clarkson follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chair Landrieu. Thank you very much, and thank you for being specific in your recommendations on how to improve this program, which I believe is very important. Let me start with you, Mr. Shear. You have outlined the duplication across agencies of many different economic development programs. It is my understanding that based on your report, SBA and USDA have entered into some sort of memorandum of understanding to better coordinate their programs. Is that your understanding? And if so, could you give us an update, if you are knowledgeable about that arrangement between Agriculture and SBA? Mr. Shear. Yes, I can. We are aware of the MOU, and we think that it is very broad, it is general, where many times what we are looking for for comprehensive collaboration are more specific MOUs. When we reach out to each agency to ask them what type of collaborative practices are actually evolving, the one agency that has responded to us is USDA. SBA has not provided us information that would suggest the type of collaboration that was conveyed in the first panel of this hearing, and it is disturbing to us because we have heard about plans to collaborate, yet we observe that USDA seems to be the one agency that is interested, and collaboration cannot be a unilateral action. What USDA is doing at this stage is it is reaching out to its own field offices to try to assess how much collaboration is occurring out in the field rather than trying to develop more collaborative practices at the agency-wide level. Chair Landrieu. Okay. We will follow up on that. Mr. Baron, you gave a fairly strong statement supporting the notion--and we agree--that the Federal government does have a particular role and obligation to make sure that the 26 million small businesses have access to Government contracting; otherwise, they could be muscled out or squeezed out by big businesses that have potentially greater access in terms of lobbyists, et cetera, et cetera. But there are some members, and even on this Committee, that would disagree with that. What are your best one, two, or three arguments as to why this contracting program--a special set-aside, if you will--for small business is necessary? Some people think business is business. Small businesses should compete against large businesses for government contracts. What would you give as your best arguments as to why this program should be continued and supported and improved? Mr. Baron. Sure. Essentially in looking at these contracting programs, we kind of view it as looking at the health of the economy as a whole. We see the Small Business Act that was established in 1953 as being one of the greatest stimulus plans for the economy put into place. There has been a lot of research done not only by our organization but by others showing that small firms more often than not can compete in providing products, goods, and services of a higher quality at a cheaper price. We look at the fact that small firms are not going to build tanks, boats, and a lot of the big-ticket items. For example, Boeing was awarded the tanker contract. However, small firms contribute as subcontractors to all of those items quite a bit. And in looking at the fact that one out of every $5 being spent by the Federal government in contract actions is on contracts under $100,000. Those are well within a range for small firms to easily compete with and should be used. If we see right now that small firms are creating the majority of net new jobs and are the most vibrant part of our economy, we should be doing everything possible to help provide demand, drive demand for them. We have been hearing more and more from small businesses that what they are looking for right now is they need business walking in the door. They need demand to increase. So we see these contracting programs as a way of literally bringing that demand to them and having them--we see that multiplier effect. When small firms get Federal contracts, they hire out of the local community. That money gets spent back within the local community that grows and builds from the ground up, which is exactly what we need going forward to help rebuild our economy, get us stabilized, and move forward again. So I think, you know, when we are looking at this, historically speaking these programs have provided for thousands of small businesses, taken a business from just a few employees and helped it grow into a very successful company that employs lots of Americans today. Chair Landrieu. Thank you. Mr. Clarkson, some members have indicated that they do not believe Government should be choosing who to lend money to. It is my understanding--and I want to ask you if it is yours--that under the current lending programs, isn't it the community bankers in the community that are making those decisions as to who to lend to and the Government is just providing a guarantee? How would you describe that? Is it Government choosing or is it the local community bankers that are in the communities that must know the people very well or know them more than the Federal Government would know them? Mr. Clarkson. It is the lenders that are actually making the credit decision as to whether the loan is made or not made, and so that includes not only the community lenders, but all of the other lenders that are out there, the 3,000 lenders that are participating in this program. We do our credit analysis. We evaluate the structure of the loan, and we are the ones that are making the decision. In turn, the SBA provides the guarantee, so it is not even a straight dollar out of that the SBA is having to commit. It is a guarantee of potential losses on that transaction. And to note, it is a sharing of the risk. It is not a complete transfer of the risk over to the SBA or the Government. And as lenders, we not only collect fees from the borrower that are remitted to the SBA, but we in turn also remit fees to the SBA for our participation in that program. So it is a well-run program---- Chair Landrieu. A public-private partnership really from the community lending perspective. Mr. Clarkson. That is exactly what that is. Chair Landrieu. And my final--and I will get to the Senators. I beg your forbearance here. Ms. Pastore, I am considering very strongly trying to review and look out into the country the best entrepreneurial training programs that exist because I do believe that America's strength is in entrepreneurial activity and trying to figure out who is doing that well, who is doing it better than others for some potential legislation. You mentioned in your testimony that, unlike SCORE, Women's Business Centers are there helping a business to grow, et cetera, et cetera. How many volunteers, either in numbers or in volunteer hours, are associated with the Women's Business Centers? And if you do not know that, if you could get that information. Because my understanding is that a SCORE model is really more volunteer driven; yours is more 100 percent Government funded. And I am trying to find what model is the best, et cetera. So what would you say to that? And then I will get to the other Senators in a moment. Ms. Pastore. I would say to that, in terms of the number of volunteer hours and the numbers of volunteers across the country, across all 110 Women's Business Centers, that is a very big part of the operation. I can get you those specific numbers. But I can tell you that in Connecticut we have over 150 volunteers, because when you are thinking about a small---- Chair Landrieu. Statewide or---- Ms. Pastore. Statewide. We have two Women's Business Centers in our state, and I represent both of those, and we have about 150 volunteers that teach, train, counsel, and mentor, because with a very limited budget--usually a shoestring--we have a small staff, and we have to leverage community resources. What the Women's Business Centers provide is an opportunity for professionals in the community to volunteer their area of expertise, and I bring a volunteer with me here today, actually, from Connecticut, who volunteers her time and her expertise to clients. We make it very easy and very comfortable for them to do that. So it is a very similar--it is similar in some degrees, but the oversight and the training that we provide to our counselors and our mentors and our volunteers is pretty rigorous. And not just anybody can volunteer. There are serious qualifications that have to be reviewed. Chair Landrieu. Thank you. Senator Risch, who has taken over for Senator Snowe or Senator Paul. Senator Risch. There goes your battlefield promotion. [Laughter.] Mr. Baron, have you heard about--well, I am sure you have heard about the proposal from the President by Executive order to require anyone who is doing Government contracting to disclose their political contributions, not only the company but also the directors and that sort of thing. Have you heard about that proposal that is on the table? Mr. Baron. Yes, I have. Senator Risch. Okay. What is the position of your organization on that? Mr. Baron. Well, our organization has not come out with an official position, but essentially the way that we have fallen in discussion with several congressional offices on this is that we are always pushing in favor of greater transparency. And we believe that the Presidential Executive order, while not perfect, does offer greater transparency into how some of the money is being spent when it comes to contractors' connection with Members of Congress or members within the Administration. What we see frequently, I think, based on several websites that you can go to that track a lot of money, is just seeing how money is being spent and influenced and trying to determine whether or not campaign contributions or things of that nature have a direct impact on companies' abilities to land Federal contracts and is that really having an impact in helping skew, so that contracts are not being awarded based on who can provide a better, a superior product at the best price but who has connections. Senator Risch. Are you worried about the reverse of that, that is that those who are awarding the contracts want to see that their money is going to the right place as far as they are concerned? Mr. Baron. Are we worried about that? Senator Risch. Yes. Mr. Baron. I would say at this point not as much. From what we are hearing from our members, small businesses do participate in contributing to various candidates, campaigns as well. They do not seem to have a concern as far as that information being public. Senator Risch. My constituents would disagree with the membership of your organization. Mr. DeHaven, I think I probably know what Cato's position is on this, but have at it. Mr. DeHaven. Well, yes, I mean, we believe that the SBA should be abolished. We believe that there is absolutely no role for the Federal Government in the credit markets. Actually, if you look at history, the SBA is an interesting character because it is actually one of those few Government programs---- Senator Risch. Mr. DeHaven, I got that. Could you go back to the issue of the President's Executive order to disclose campaign contributions, without the force of law? He is doing an Executive order as opposed to having a congressional statute. Mr. DeHaven. Cato has written books on the abuse of Executive power. It has been building for years. The Bush Administration took it to new levels, and the Obama Administration is basically building on what came before him. As to the specifics of that issue, I am not completely familiar. Senator Risch. Ms. Pastore, does your organization have a position on that particular Executive order? Ms. Pastore. We do not. Senator Risch. Okay. Thank you very much. Mr. Clarkson, you are in the lending--you represent the lenders so I assume you do not have a position on that. Mr. Clarkson. We do not. Senator Risch. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Chair Landrieu. Thank you. Senator Brown, thank you for joining us, but Senator Paul has been here. Do you mind if he does his questioning? Then we will go to you. Senator Brown. No, no. I just came from SASC. We are in our SASC hearing. Chair Landrieu. Thank you so much. Senator Paul. I still get to assume some sort of authority and seniority here. Senator Brown. We will see. Senator Paul. We will see. [Laughter.] Chair Landrieu. First to come, first to question. Senator Paul. All right. Thank you very much. Mr. DeHaven, if the SBA exists to give loans to firms that are--there is this market failure, firms are not getting loans, this is sort of--in other words, these are firms that I guess the marketplace has already voted against, the marketplace voted not to give them funds, so the Government is going to give them funds. If so, I guess we are kind of lucky the SBA is only giving out about 1 to 5 percent of business loans because if they were giving out loans at the rate, for example, of the home mortgages--80 percent of them were owned by the Government, by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--we set sort of sub-standard ideas for who we gave the money to, and because of that it led to an enormous problem in our economy. So I guess the only thing I can think of is that we are lucky maybe the SBA gives a few loans and that they are giving them to people who are less creditworthy by definition because this is supposedly the market failure. Now, my other question and what I would like you to comment on is that we are told, well, SBA is not making the decisions, this is just the banks who are making the decision on the creditworthiness. But, also, if we look closely at the requirements here, 23 percent of Federal contracts have to go to small businesses. We are dictating how the Federal contracting policy works. We are also dictating that the small business loans are either women or minority owned, and they get preferential treatment, not based on creditworthiness but just based on their chromosomes or the color of their skin. I would like you to make a comment on the market failures and also how SBA loans are being dictated not based on creditworthiness. Mr. DeHaven. There was an interesting comment made by Mr. Clarkson about the community lender, the community banks. They have relationships with the folks closest to the community and the Federal Government does not, so, therefore, the Government is not dictating. But that argument in itself mitigates against there being a market failure because you are saying that we are closest to the lender, we have a relationship, therefore, we can make the decision. This idea of market failure--you know, I was out in the State of Indiana, and one day I tried out a new pizza place, and up on the wall is a newspaper article that says ``we got started with a small business loan.'' And that really set off bells in my head. I thought, well, there are thousands of pizza places in Indianapolis. Why are they getting an SBA loan that helps them compete against somebody else? Now, that is inherently discriminatory, and I am not sure what the constitutional basis for the SBA is. Some might say the general welfare, but that is not the general welfare. You are discriminating against other businesses. Senator Paul. I guess the question would be how good is the pizza. You know, the other people got their loan and are successful based on the taste of their pizza and pleasing their customers. This person got a loan because they were connected somehow to Government. The other question I have for you, Mr. DeHaven, would be: Right now do you think it is a good idea to increase taxes on individuals and businesses that earn over $200,000 a year? Mr. DeHaven. No, of course not, and I accidentally started answering Senator Risch's original--is that when the SBA was created, the small business community was either ambivalent or did not even want it. What they were concerned about at the time in the 1950s was the increase in government in terms of regulation and taxes as a result of the New Deal in World War II. So what was the response from the Government? Instead of addressing those problems and fixing those problems, we will create a Government bureaucracy. And the rest is history. Once that bureaucracy became entrenched--and, again, we are having a hearing today about waste, fraud, and abuse in Government programs. I staffed a hearing for Senator Coburn 5 years ago on the SBA. William Shear was there to testify. This is like Groundhog Day for me. The only difference between 5 years ago and today is that I am sitting and talking to you instead of sitting behind you. Senator Paul. May I have a few seconds? Chair Landrieu. Go right ahead. Senator Paul. One last question would be: Mr. DeHaven, do you think that Dodd-Frank is going to help with small businesses getting loans, or do you think it is going to hurt with small businesses getting private loans? Mr. DeHaven. Our regulatory experts are dead set against it. As you mentioned, just yesterday the NFIB, the National Federation of Independent Businesses, came out with their latest survey: 3 percent of their small business respondents said that credit was their number one concern--3 percent. And that has been consistent throughout even the recession. When you look at the combination of taxes and regulations, that is their biggest issue, and yet we persist, as we have for 50 years, trying to address the interests of small business through bureaucracies and Government programs. And then we wonder why we have waste, fraud, abuse, and inefficiency. Senator Paul. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Chair Landrieu. Thank you so much. Senator Brown. Senator Brown. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Shear, I know your GAO report suggested that agencies should leverage physical and administrative resources, establish compatible policies and procedures, monitor collaboration, basically streamline, consolidate, et cetera, et cetera. I know the SBA has taken some initial steps. Are you satisfied that they have taken rigorous steps to incorporate your suggestions on how to address the issues from overlapping programs and the like? Mr. Shear. At this stage we have identified potential duplication, potential overlap, so it is not like we have gotten down to specifically what programs might be those most prone for consolidation. But where we have taken very strong positions based on rigorous audit work in the past has been that when multiple agencies and multiple programs are providing at least compatible programs and services, there should be-- collaboration can improve the leveraging of resources and can lead to more efficient distribution of those resources. And when it comes to SBA and USDA particularly in rural areas, we have been, in all honesty, disappointed by the lack of action of the two agencies to work together to come up with collaborative practices that could provide some structure for them delivering their services. Senator Brown. So, in other words, not much has been done to basically address those issues. Mr. Shear. I would agree with that, that they have established an MOU without taking it further. Senator Brown. I get it. Thanks. All right. Just to go back to you, Mr. DeHaven. You indicated that you went to the pizza place, and you wondered how they got the loan. And then you also said you felt it was discriminatory that they would actually get the loan. How can you make that statement based on the fact that you know nothing about the loan? You do not know what circumstances at all that they got the loan. They may have been the only one who applied for the loan. They may have rehabilitated the building. They may have taken a chance in an area that nobody else did. How do you make that statement and stand behind it? Mr. DeHaven. The discrimination occurs against those pizza shop entrepreneurs who did not get Government backing. Senator Brown. But they could have applied, potentially, just like everybody else. Mr. DeHaven. I do not. They could have, but they did not. Senator Brown. You do not know, but you are claiming that that is discriminatory based on basically having no basis in fact. Mr. DeHaven. Unless every single pizza shop in that area in the State of Indiana, and I would say across the country, is getting their start with a Government-backed loan, then there is necessarily discrimination. Senator Brown. But they potentially could have done that had they sought the application and applied for it. Mr. DeHaven. Not necessarily because the SBA is capped in how much loans--and I think that actually brings up an interesting issue. If it is such a great program and such a good idea, why is there a cap on 7(a) lending volume? Senator Brown. To take it a step further, I find it kind of inappropriate that you would make a statement that it is discriminatory for that pizza place to get a loan without having the facts, and I think it is the kind of rhetoric like that, as you throw it around--and we hear those things in a whole host of areas in Washington. It does not help solve the problem and basically step up and, you know, make it better and encourage people to take a shot in business. That is just my thoughts on that. Mr. Clarkson, back to you, if I could shift gears a little bit. I also find it disconcerting that the SBA's lending program has not specifically been directed to find ways to minimize expenditures and losses in a way that a bank tries to do. Do you think it would work or could work if the SBA were to engage the CDC in a collection process in order to stop surrendering that money that we otherwise could recover? Mr. Clarkson. Are you talking about under the 504 program? You had said the CDC---- Senator Brown. Any program where it is applicable. Mr. Clarkson. Under the guaranteed program, what we do as lenders, we are the ones that liquidate the collateral, and then we request from the SBA their sharing, their pro rata sharing of the loss in the residual. And we as lenders do not give up all of the risk, so we do have our capital at risk. We do have our personnel and our process involved in the collection of those loans. So, yes, I mean, the system in and of itself in my mind is working appropriately. Senator Brown. Okay. And, Mr. Shear, back to you a little bit. I know you have the reports, and you have noted the duplication, and you commented that they really have not done anything. At what point do you--or what role do you play to say, you know what, you really have to start to do this? Because every other--I mean, I am in SASC right now. We have been in there for 2 days. We are cutting billions and billions of dollars from the military budget at a time when we are in two and a half wars. And yet we have other agencies that, you know, they note these duplications and overlaps and ways that they could consolidate and streamline to save the taxpayers money, and they are not doing anything. At what point do you or other agencies, you know, say, hey, guys, it is time, you have got to really kind of get with the program here? Mr. Shear. One of the reasons why we are undertaking this work and devoting resources to it to look at economic development programs and why as an agency we are looking across the Federal Government and the Comptroller General has made a commitment that we will reach across the Federal Government by 2013 to look for duplication, overlap, and fragmentation in Federal programs is to try to inform Congress as far as how programs are operating and where there might be chances for efficiencies, for better program delivery, an also for efficiencies that could reduce Federal costs. Senator Brown. Madam Chair, thank you. I would hope that we could, in fact, find a mechanism to put some teeth into some of these recommendations to have these agencies actually get cracking and save us some taxpayer money. Chair Landrieu. Thank you, Senator Brown. I really appreciate your sincerity, and I would like to close with just two comments. One, the defense budget is about $649 billion; homeland security is $42 billion. The entire SBA program is less than $900 million. Now, that is not an excuse to not make it as efficient and as effective as it can be. But, you know, if we did take Mr. DeHaven's recommendation to completely eliminate it, it would save $900 million. A small percentage cut in defense would double or triple that in one fell swoop. Having said that, that is what this hearing is about. Senator Snowe and I are committed to eliminating waste, fraud, abuse, and exploitation of government programs. Finally, in conclusion, I am going to present this to all of our members because I carry this around with me. These are the private sector partners of the SBA. Some of them are private sector partners. SCORE is for the most part private sector. The government funds it at a small amount, but it leverages an extensive volunteer network which is private. The SBDCs are supported by the government and the Women's Business Centers. So you can see they are represented all over the country. There are other partners--that would be state economic development offices--that are not on here. There are city economic development offices. In the city of New Orleans, there is the Idea Village, which is run privately by entrepreneurs, with some government funding. Mr. Shear, what I am getting at is I really want to try to get to a position where we can identify which of these are working well, leveraging taxpayer money well, and which are absorbing a lot of taxpayer money without working well, so that I can do my job in this Committee to eliminate those that are not living up to the mark. So I want to share this with you for the record, and I look forward to working with you so we can identify, again, out there in the country what entities are really doing a very good job and which ones are not and trying to do our job by eliminating those that are weaker. [The information follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Thank you so much, and we will end the hearing. Thank you all very much for coming. I appreciate it. [Whereupon, at 11:53 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.] APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]