[House Hearing, 112 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] HOW TAX COMPLEXITY HINDERS SMALL BUSINESS: THE IMPACT ON JOB CREATION AND ECONOMIC GROWTH ======================================================================= HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ HEARING HELD APRIL 13, 2011 __________ [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] TONGRESS.#13 Small Business Committee Document Number 112-010 Available via the GPO Website: http://www.fdsys.gov U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 66-457 WASHINGTON : 2011 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center, U.S. Government Printing Office. Phone 202�09512�091800, or 866�09512�091800 (toll-free). E-mail, [email protected]. HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS SAM GRAVES, Missouri, Chairman ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland STEVE CHABOT, Ohio STEVE KING, Iowa MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina SCOTT TIPTON, Colorado CHUCK FLEISCHMANN, Tennessee JEFF LANDRY, Louisiana JAIME HERRERA BEUTLER, Washington ALLEN WEST, Florida RENEE ELLMERS, North Carolina JOE WALSH, Illinois LOU BARLETTA, Pennsylvania RICHARD HANNA, New York NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member KURT SCHRADER, Oregon MARK CRITZ, Pennsylvania JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania YVETTE CLARKE, New York JUDY CHU, California DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana GARY PETERS, Michigan BILL OWENS, New York BILL KEATING, Massachusetts Lori Salley, Staff Director Paul Sass, Deputy Staff Director Barry Pineles, Chief Counsel Michael Day, Minority Staff Director C O N T E N T S ---------- Page OPENING STATEMENTS Hon. Sam Graves.................................................. 1 Hon. Nydia M. Velazquez.......................................... 2 WITNESSES Ms. Nina E. Olson, National Taxpayer Advocate, Washington, DC.... 3 Steven J. Strobel, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer, BlueStar Energy Solutions, Chicago, IL................ 5 Robert Kulp, Founder, Co-owner and Business Development Director, Kulp's of Stratford, Stratford, WI............................. 7 Monty W. Walker, CPA, Walker Business Advisory Services, Wichita Falls, TX...................................................... 8 APPENDIX Prepared Statements: Hon. Yvette Clark................................................ 70 Statements for the Record: The Corporation for Enterprise Development....................... 77 HOW TAX COMPLEXITY HINDERS SMALL BUSINESS: THE IMPACT ON JOB CREATION AND ECONOMIC GROWTH ---------- WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2011 House of Representatives, Committee on Small Business, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 1:00 p.m., in room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building. Hon. Sam Graves (chairman of the Committee) presiding. Present: Representatives Graves, West, Walsh, Barletta, Velazquez, Schrader, Altmire, Clarke, Chu, Cicilline, and Keating. Chairman Graves. Good afternoon. I call the hearing to order. I want to thank our witnesses all for being here today. I know some of you have come a long way and we appreciate it very much. The U.S. economy appears to be strengthening and the labor market appears to be improving slowly. But energy prices are volatile and months of rising food, clothing, and fuel has also caused wholesale prices to rise. Small businesses continue to be affected by the uncertainty of more mandates, higher taxes, and additional regulations. It is difficult for our nation's job creators to do what we are expecting them to do and that is create jobs and spur investment. Against this backdrop and during the week prior to tax day, we meet to examine the federal tax code complexity and its impact on small businesses. In our 2010 Report to Congress, the National Taxpayer Advocate, who is with us today, identified tax complexity as the top problem facing taxpayers. She also reported that U.S. taxpayers and businesses spend about 6.1 billion hours per year to comply with filing requirements. The tax code continues to expand--it is now 3.8 million words and there have been over 4,428 changes to it in the past 10 years, an average of more than 1 per day. It is no secret that tax complexity has a disproportionate impact on small firms. The Small Business Administration's Office of Advocacy reported that small firms spend more per employee than large businesses to comply with the tax paperwork, recordkeeping, and reporting requirements. Surveys by the National Federation of Independent Business consistently rank federal taxes as one of the top five issues of concern to entrepreneurs. At a time when every added expense can mean the difference between a small entity's success or failure, clearly tax simplification is needed. I am encouraged by Chairman Ryan's budget proposal, which recommends lowering the top individual and corporate tax rates. According to the NFIB, nearly 75 percent of small firms are organized as pass-through entities such as sole proprietorships, partnerships, or LLCs where business income is passed through and taxed at the individual rate. In other words, most small businesses file their taxes on an individual return. Consideration of corporate tax reform without also considering individual rates would leave many small business owners out of the debate. Again, I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today and I will now turn to Ranking Member Velazquez for her opening statement. Ms. Velazquez. Good afternoon, everyone. With tax day fast approaching, filing taxes is on the minds of many Americans, particularly small business owners. This Committee is well aware of the challenges created by the Internal Revenue Code. Over the past decade, businesses have repeatedly expressed to Committee members that tax complexity has become a major obstacle to job creation. While this issue has been recognized for some time, the problem seems to be getting worse, not better. As the Chairman stated, there has been approximately 4,428 changes to the tax code, an average of 1 per day. These changes compound an already burdensome tax system creating confusion and higher compliance costs. In fact, individuals and businesses spend about 6.1 billion hours per year complying with the filing requirements. These burdens can hurt small businesses as they seek to compete both domestically and abroad. Small firms now spend up to 67 percent more on tax compliance than their corporate competitors. And on the global front, the U.S. ranks an embarrassing 65th worldwide for time spent complying with business tax filings. This hearing will hopefully offer insight, not only on the problem but also on potential solutions. After all, as we look at policies to promote growth, tax reform should be a top priority. A fairer and simpler tax code can encourage entrepreneurship, promote investment, and lead to job creation. One thing is clear as we talk about reform. The needs of small businesses must come first. We cannot move forward without their input, and we must fully recognize the impact of how any changes will affect them. At a time when the economy is starting to exhibit sustained job creation, small firms cannot have new obstacles to expansion. Fundamental tax reform obviously poses its own challenges. Back in 2005, this Committee heard testimony from the Tax Reform panel appointed by President Bush, but his recommendation, its recommendations went nowhere. The latest 2010 Deficit Commission similarly recommended a major overhaul to the tax code but the report did not gather enough support to force a vote in Congress. Today's hearing will hopefully start the process of crafting solutions to our overly complex tax code. It is clear that small businesses and our economy can come out winners if reform is done right. Small businesses are the drivers of the nation's economy and we cannot afford to put the cost of collecting taxes on them. Entrepreneurs do not want preferential treatment; they just want equal treatment. I look forward to today's testimony and I thank the witnesses for their participation. With that I yield back. Chairman Graves. If the other Committee members have statements for the record I would appreciate you submitting those. I would also like to take a real quick opportunity to explain the timing lights. Each of you has five minutes, and please try to stay within the five minutes. The light will be green and then it will turn yellow when we have one minute left and red when the time is up. STATEMENTS OF THE HONORABLE NINA E. OLSON, NATIONAL TAXPAYER ADVOCATE; STEVEN J. STROBEL, BLUESTAR ENERGY SOLUTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS ASSOCIATION; ROBERT KULP, KULP'S OF STRATFORD ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL ROOFING CONTRACTORS OF AMERICA; MONTY W. WALKER, WALKER BUSINESS ADVISORY SERVICES Chairman Graves. I will now introduce our first witness, Nina Olson. She is the National Taxpayer Advocate, an appointment she has had since 2001. She leads the Internal Revenue Service's Taxpayer Advocate Service. The office is dedicated to assisting taxpayers with their IRS problems. And again, thank you for coming. STATEMENT OF NINA E. OLSON Ms. Olson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Velazquez, and distinguished members of the Committee. Thank you for inviting me to testify today about the impact of tax complexity on small businesses. My office estimates that small businesses alone spend at least 2.5 billion hours each year complying with income tax filing requirements. This is not a trifling matter because small businesses are the creators of most new jobs and the employers of about half the private sector workforce. To state the obvious, the more time and resources a small business spends on tax compliance, the less time it has to grow and hire employees. In my 2010 Annual Report to Congress, I identified the need for Tax Reform as the number one most serious problem facing taxpayers and the IRS. The tax code is filled with special breaks helping taxpayers who can afford tax advice and discriminating against those who cannot. This complexity confuses taxpayers and creates a sense of distance between taxpayers and the government, which undermines taxpayer morale and leads to lower levels of voluntary compliance. The complexity of the tax code is also burdensome for the IRS, making it more difficult for the agency to meet taxpayer needs and probably resulting in more audit and enforcement actions than a simpler code would require. My report advocates for comprehensive tax reform, which I believe is ultimately a necessity. But there are smaller steps we can take right now to ease the compliance burden of small businesses. I will briefly highlight several tax requirements that impose unnecessary compliance burdens on small business and require simplification or at the very least, more guidance. First, the home office business deduction is unnecessarily complex and requires time-consuming recordkeeping by many small businesses. We recommend the creation of an optional standard home office business deduction. Second, the S corporation election process is confusing and causes many taxpayers to make inadvertent errors. As a result, some businesses inadvertently become classified as C corporations and their shareholders cannot deduct operating losses on their individual tax returns. To address these problems, we recommend simplifying the election process to allow small business corporations to make an S election by checking a box on a timely filed Form 1120S. Third, business owners need greater flexibility under the Trust Fund Recovery Penalty, which can apply against a person responsible for filing or paying over a business's employment taxes. Currently, the strict application of the penalty's willfulness component requires the responsible person to use all available funds to pay the delinquent tax and prohibits the use of any funds to pay operating expenses of the business even to keep the business going. We recommend the IRS not assess this penalty where there was an intervening bad act such as embezzlement and the taxpayer makes payment arrangements and remains current with payment and filing obligations. Fourth, the IRS has long acknowledged that taxpayer service and enforcement both play important roles in maximizing tax compliance, but the IRS's compliance initiatives these days are rooted exclusively or primarily in enforcement measures. Particularly when it comes to small business taxpayers, I believe outreach initiatives that educate taxpayers about the bewildering array of income and employment tax requirements they face are critical. Several years ago the IRS conducted an extensive series of surveys and research studies to better understand the service needs and preferences of individual taxpayers. We have recommended the IRS replicate this process to better understand the service needs and preferences of small business taxpayers as well. Finally, I want to close with a word about IRS collection policies and procedures. The IRS does not do enough to work proactively with small business taxpayers that have emerging collection problems, particularly those who fall behind on their employment tax obligations. The IRS should provide early assistance, including calling the taxpayer and discussing and utilizing flexible collection tools, such as installment agreements, partial payment installment agreements, and offers in compromise. Further, the IRS should develop a better understanding of the reasons for noncompliance among small business taxpayers so it can apply appropriate collection techniques. Toward that goal, it should develop a definition of economic hardship for small businesses that balance tax collection and promotion of a level playing field on the one hand with the government's and taxpayers' interest in helping small businesses remain viable and contributing to the country's economic growth on the other. I appreciate your interest in these issues and would be happy to respond to collections--questions. Thank you. Collections, too. [Laughter.] Chairman Graves. Thank you, Ms. Olson. Our next witness, and I will be introducing on behalf of Mr. Walsh, but our next witness is Steven Strobel, the executive vice president and chief financial officer for BlueStar Energy Services, which is a retail energy supplier in Chicago, Illinois. He is testifying on behalf of the National Small Business Association. Mr. Strobel, we appreciate you being here. Thanks for coming. STATEMENT OF STEVEN J. STROBEL Mr. Strobel. Thank you, Chairman Graves, Ranking Member Velazquez, Committee members. Thanks for the opportunity to testify today. Although NSBA's members operate a wide variety of businesses, they all consistently rank reducing the tax burden among their top issues Congress and the administration needs to address. While the actual out-of-pocket cost is a huge issue, the sheer complexity of the tax code has been an ever- increasing administrative burden on America's small businesses, which unlike big corporations do not have large staffs of accountants, benefit coordinators, attorneys, personnel administrators, et cetera, at their disposal to deal with the regulatory and paperwork demands of the federal government. According to NSBA's 2011 Small Business Taxation Survey, 87 percent of small business owners hire outside help to handle their tax reporting and filing requirements. The complexity of the current tax system forces small businesses to spend valuable time and financial resources on tax compliance instead of using these resources to do what they do best--grow the business and hire people. When asked in the NSBA Taxation Survey how much time and money per year is spent just on the administration of taxes, 50 percent of small businesses said they spend more than $5,000, and more than a third spend more than 80 hours on tax filing preparation. At BlueStar, we spend about $25,000 annually on our tax preparation. As Congress and the administration grapple with a downturned economy, banking failures, and skyrocketing deficit, it is natural to look for ways to offset spending and raise revenues. However, it would be unwise for Congress to do so on the backs of small business owners, the very entrepreneurs who create jobs. To grow their businesses and hire new employees, small business owners need dependable and sufficient access to capital and public policies that boost investment and encourage entrepreneurship. Reducing the U.S. deficit has a real benefit to small business growth in the U.S. and is something America's small business owners feel should be a national priority. Federal spending in 2010 amounted to approximately 24 percent of GDP, a level not seen since World War II, and in part due to an economic downturn. Even with an economic recovery and the ensuing increase in tax revenues and decrease in spending, without major changes federal spending will continue to outpace revenues. If we continue to run high deficits, increase interest, and constrict credit, it will negatively impact small businesses' ability to garner financing, and 80 percent of small businesses use credit. Congress and the administration over the coming years must address the nation's budget deficit and the associated long- term debt. In addition to reducing the size and pay of the government workforce and overall entitlement spending, one way to do that is to implement real tax reform. Tax reform is one of the NSBA's top 10 priorities. Based on a 2011 NSBA Taxation Survey, small businesses express support for tax reform that simplifies the tax code, broadens the base, lowers all individual and corporate tax rates, and makes the corporate tax code more competitive for U.S. businesses. The current tax code is comprised of more than 10,000 pages of laws and regulations that, in their complexity and propensity for frequent change, serve as a disadvantage to small businesses. NSBA's members believe it is imperative that the U.S. move toward a simpler, fairer tax system that is designed to tax only once, is stable and predictable, is visible to the taxpayer, is simple in its administration and compliance, and is comprehendible using commonly understood finance and accounting concepts. And finally, is fair in its treatment to all citizens. These reforms can spur economic growth. Another factor to consider is the international competitiveness of U.S. firms. Congress and the administration must ensure that our tax code does not impede our international competitiveness of U.S. companies, nor disincentivize domestic investment. One way to accomplish this is by enacting the fair tax. In the 112th Congress, legislation has been introduced into the House and Senate, the Fair Tax Act of 2011, which the NSBA proudly supports. But whether it is the fair tax or any of the other tax reform recommendations that are currently on the table, any reform must be built around internationally competitive tax rules that result in a simpler, more efficient and less costly tax system that provides powerful incentives for businesses to invest and produce in the U.S. The economics of small businesses in all sectors would be strengthened by their ability to save and invest in this country and thus hire additional workers. The NSBA believes efforts to reduce the regulatory and administrative burdens on small businesses must focus on overall simplification, eliminating inequities within the tax code, and enhancing taxpayer education and outreach. A simpler tax code that is more easily understood by taxpayers would have many benefits, not the least of which would be reduced cost of compliance and reduced unintentional errors. Accurate tax reporting and compliance is extremely important to small businesses but vague rules and poorly defined regulation understandably result in mistakes. The more assistance offered to taxpayers and the simpler it is to understand and comply with tax laws, the more taxpayers will accurately meet their tax obligations, and with the complexity facing many taxpayers, NSBA believes that development and implementation of initiatives to improve IRS guidance and assistance is important. In conclusion, the NSBA is confident that fiscally responsible policies and entrepreneurially supportive tax simplification will lead to the long-term prosperity of the U.S. economy. It is critical that lawmakers avoid any move that would stymie the moderate economic growth we are starting to see in the U.S. economy and the growth in our small business community. Thank you. Chairman Graves. Thank you, Mr. Strobel. Ms. Velazquez. Ms. Velazquez. It is my pleasure to introduce Mr. Robert Kulp. He is the founder of Kulp's of Stratford, Wisconsin. His firm is a roofing and insulation company that has been in business since 1985 and employs over 40 people. Mr. Kulp is testifying on behalf of the National Roofing Contractors of America with over 4,000 members worldwide. Welcome. STATEMENT OF ROBERT KULP Mr. Kulp. Thank you. Chairman Graves, Ranking Member Velazquez, and members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I am Bob Kulp, co-owner of Kulp's of Stratford. We are a small roofing and insulation company doing residential and commercial roofing. We have also moved into installing and building integrated solar photovoltaic roofing. We employ between 30 and 50 people and we do about $6 million in annual volume. I am testifying today on behalf of the National Roofing Contractors Association, and I serve as a director, as well as chairman of the Government Relations Committee. Established in 1886, the NRCA is one of the nation's oldest trade associations and a voice of professional roofing contractors worldwide. As the national unemployment situation continues to slowly improve, unemployment in the construction industry remains at an alarming 20 percent. Clearly, it is time to take steps to improve this situation. Reducing complexity in the tax code is a good place to start. NRCA urges Congress to take immediate action to simplify taxes in order to help spur job growth within the construction industry. First, Congress should facilitate the creation of an estimated 40,000 jobs by reforming tax depreciation for commercial roofs. Depreciation reform would also enhance the energy efficiency of our nation's commercial buildings and simplify taxes for many small businesses. Depreciation reform is necessary because between 1981 and 1993, the depreciation schedule for commercial roofs was increased from 15 to 39 years. However, the current 39 year depreciation schedule is not a realistic measure of how long commercial roofs last, which is about 17 years. The large disparity between that 39- year depreciation schedule and the 17-year average lifespan of a commercial roof is an incentive for building owners to delay the replacement of failing roofs. This slows economic activity in our industry because many building owners choose to just do piecemeal repairs rather than replacing a failing roof in its entirety. Several bills have been introduced in recent years to rectify this situation by reducing the depreciation schedule to a more realistic 20 years. This would facilitate the creation of an estimated 40,000 jobs in the roofing industry and add one billion dollars to the taxable annual revenue to the economy. Depreciation reform also would provide savings to small businesses of all types by simplifying their taxes and lowering energy costs. NRCA welcomes the opportunity to work with members of the Committee on legislation to create jobs by simplifying taxes through depreciation reform. Second, the NRCA calls for the immediate repeal of the 3 percent withholding on government contracts. Repeal of this law, which adds a new layer of complexity to a contractor's tax filing, is vital to job creation and economic growth in our industry. If the withholding law is not repealed, many roofing contractors will face serious repercussions. Cash flow and operating capital disruptions will be a tremendous burden particularly for small businesses. The bookkeeping systems of many small businesses simply are not set up to account for those large amounts that are withheld from invoices and withholding will complicate tax filings. Additionally, many roofing contractors will be simply forced to stop bidding government contracts in order to avoid those costly tax complexities. NRCA strongly urges Congress to quickly repeal this law that further complicates tax filings due to the 2012 implementation date that is fast approaching. Third, NRCA supports legislation to reduce tax complexity by reforming how construction contractors can utilize the completed contract method of accounting. Under current law, contractors cannot use the completed contract method if the annual average gross receipts exceed $10 million, a threshold that has not been adjusted for inflation since 1986. Contractors who cannot utilize a completed contract method must use a percentage of completion accounting method, which often does not accurately reflect results due to the required use of cost estimates. This is a major paperwork burden for many small and midsize contractors because of the need to estimate the percentage of a completed project and then retroactively amend those filings in subsequent years based on the actual numbers. This is another example of the complexity in the tax code that is an impediment to business growth and job creation, and increasingly more time and resources must be devoted to tax compliance rather than more productive forms of economic activity. To conclude, NRCA urges Congress to address the alarming 20 percent unemployment rate in the construction industry by reducing tax complexity for contractors in our industry. Thank you for your consideration of the NRCA's views and the opportunity to testify today. Chairman Graves. Our next witness is Monty Walker. Mr. Walker is a principal of Walker Business Advisory Services in Wichita Falls, Texas. He advises start-ups and established small firms on business transactions and tax matters. Mr. Walker, I appreciate you coming. STATEMENT OF MONTY W. WALKER Mr. Walker. Chairman Graves, Ranking Member Velazquez, and members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. My name is Monty Walker. I am a certified public accountant. I have a national advisory practice with a practice focus in the support of entrepreneurs, primarily in the area of business ownership transition planning and related support services. Small businesses face many obstacles. Buying or starting a small business is often one of the most significant financial events ever experienced by an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs approach the process of owning a small business with a hope and desire of creating something better for their future while often exposing themselves to a large investment and debt. For many entrepreneurs, their small business is the center of their family's financial infrastructure providing the majority, if not all, of their family's current and future income. Because of the importance small business plays in the life of a small business owner, the division between the small business and the small business owner often becomes blurred because every business decision has a direct and often significant impact on the small business owner and the small business owner's family. Additionally, almost every decision made by a small business owner has some form of tax implication. Small business owners often start their business on a passion-based foundation doing something they enjoy, only to quickly learn that running a small business has many complex and confusing compliance requirements. Mail received from the various regulatory bodies becomes overwhelming. Unfortunately, many small business owners get out of compliance simply due to a failure to interpret correspondence being received from the IRS. This is especially true for small business owners who cannot afford the services of a tax professional. For most small business owners, understanding the tax compliance requirements is beyond their reach. The complexity of the tax system is as perplexing as a foreign language. Due to limited discretionary cash flow, many small business owners do not have the ability to retain the services of a tax professional on an ongoing basis. As a result, many small businesses are attempting to maintain a substantial amount of required compliance through the efforts of untrained and unknowledgeable tax advisors, these advisors being themselves. A lack of funds for ongoing professional assistance and a misinterpretation of the regulations often lead to failed compliance. The ever growing tax code, along with the temporary provisions and interpretations, make it increasingly difficult for small business owners to do any substantial long-term planning. This leads to small business owners being placed in the position to make decisions in a vacuum due to the unknown results which may occur. Since the tax system directly impacts so many decisions, small business owners will stand by on making business developments and new hire decisions when they have a lack of confidence in what will occur due to the unknowns in the tax system. This in part has added to and is currently adding to the soft business expansion and a lack of new hiring which is desperately needed as a part of the United States' economic recovery. Small business ownership is wrought with risk and burdens. The burdens of owning a small business expand exponentially when the confusion and complexity of the tax system is introduced to the small business ownership equation. Maintaining compliance with the various governmental regulatory bodies is extremely time consuming and this is especially true for tax compliance. Additionally, maintaining tax compliance comes at a cost. The cost to properly maintain regulatory compliance is really the small business owner's opportunity cost associated with expending the same resources on business operations and business development. These resources include both money and time. Between the money spent on tax professionals and time focused on maintaining compliance as opposed to spending the same time running the business, a small business owner's opportunity cost can be quite significant. Small business owners compliance time plus their compliance fees equals a small business owner's total opportunity cost. In preparation for this hearing, I polled 20 small business owners with businesses ranging in revenue from 1 million to 5 million to determine their level of business opportunity cost. I learned that the average amount of time and fees expended by these business owners to maintain their tax compliance is time of 104 to 156 hours per year and professional fees ranging from $5,000 to $15,000 per year. When considering penalties and interest associated with the failure to maintain compliance, business opportunity costs can grow extremely large. Understanding that this business opportunity cost exists is of utmost importance because the business opportunity cost correlates with the lost resources that could have been used for business development which in turn leads to the creation of new jobs. Thank you. Chairman Graves. Thank you very much, Mr. Walker. We will now move into questions. Ms. Olson, I have to say that it is refreshing to hear you talk about your position and the Office of Advocacy and that you are advocating for taxpayers. Do they listen to you? Ms. Olson. I think that the IRS understands the complexity that taxpayers need to live with. They are doing some research now but they are not doing the kind of comprehensive research on taxpayer needs and preferences for small business taxpayers that I need to see. On the collection area, I think that they really feel the need to collect, collect, collect. They make very few phone calls out to taxpayers outbound to find out what is really going on in their situations. They often use levies as the calling card and get the call back in from the taxpayer saying what are you doing? I cannot make payroll. And there is generally a lack of sympathy in the employment tax area, which is why we are focusing so much on that area. One thing we learned was that for an account to get assigned to someone, an employment tax account get assigned to someone to actually make a face-to-face call with a taxpayer, there is usually two years of arrearages. And as I think the representative down there, Mr. Walker would say, the sooner you can get to the taxpayer when the dollars are low, you have a greater chance of solving the problem and keeping them in compliance in the future and keeping the business going. But when it gets so large, like two years' worth of employment taxes, that is the kiss of death for a business. Chairman Graves. My next question is--and I will start with Mr. Walker. And you can answer it from, obviously from your client's point of view; and Mr. Strobel, from your association's point of view; your members, Mr. Kulp. I do not know if it will pertain to you and I would like to hear Ms. Olson at the end. The administration is proposing higher taxes for pass-through small businesses that file their income taxes on an individual tax return--higher taxes for couples with incomes over $250,000 and individuals over $200,000. Can you tell me how that would affect your clients that fall into that area? Mr. Walker. The area of practice I am in really shows the misnomer in this concept of excess of 250. Small business owners spend years developing a business, and many times they are developing it so that they can have it for retirement. They, on paper, are worth a lot of money but they may not make a lot during the time. So they are below 250 possibly while they are operating, then all of a sudden the economic event occurs and they may sell that business for a million dollars, which is designed to be their retirement. All of a sudden, now under the excess of 250, that is a wealthy individual. So it has a significant adverse impact on their willingness to even sell and they hold out. But it will be an adverse impact, especially on their ability to have retirement funds. It goes well beyond just normal operating taxes. This is a life event that can be adversely impacted by decision to increase above the 250. Chairman Graves. Mr. Kulp, does it pertain to you? Mr. Kulp. I would agree with what he said but, no, it does not really directly. Chairman Graves. Mr. Strobel. Mr. Strobel. I would talk about it in the context of BlueStar. We are a sub S corporation so all of our income goes straight through to our two owners. And so any increase in tax would be a direct impact on the resources available in our company to invest, do marketing, understand other investments that we could make to actually grow the company. So it would be a diminution in the resources available to grow the company. Chairman Graves. Ms. Olson. Ms. Olson. Well, I get to pass on commenting about rates because that is really the, you know, the jurisdiction of the Office of Tax Policy in Treasury. But I would say, you know, our recommendation has been that you really simplify, you know, reduce the complexity of the code, really think long and hard about what is running through the code. And if you do that, you would have a broader base and be able to reduce rates for everyone involved. And that is sort of our position. We did it in 1986. I do not see why we cannot do it again. Chairman Graves. Mr. Kulp, you mentioned already some things, some specifics on simplification, which I appreciated, 3 percent withholding and some other stuff. Just out of curiosity, Mr. Strobel or Mr. Walker, do you have any specifics? You mentioned a few, too, Mr. Walker, but other specific things when it comes to complexity? Are you talking total overhaul? You know, changing, you know, it is obviously very complicated now but any other ideas and thoughts? You know, coupled onto what Mr. Kulp said, too, about depreciation? Mr. Kulp. Depreciation is a significant problem. It is very complex. People do not know whether they should take a period expense or expense something immediately. So it is far beyond depreciation. If somebody is going to repair a vehicle, is that a depreciable event or is that a period expense? They spend-- you can spend hours just trying to determine how that applies. So that is a great example. Capitalization versus expensing. The issues that are a problem, especially when it comes to this depreciation matter, currently it does not matter if a business has been think long and hard about what is running through the code. And if you do that, you would have a broader base and be able to reduce rates for everyone involved. And that is sort of our position. We did it in 1986. I do not see why we cannot do it again. Chairman Graves. Mr. Kulp, you mentioned already some specifics on simplification, which I appreciated, 3 percent withholding and some other stuff. Just out of curiosity, Mr. Strobel or Mr. Walker, do you have any specifics? You mentioned a few, too, Mr. Walker, but other specifics when it comes to complexity? Are you talking about total overhaul? You know, the code is obviously very complicated now, but any other ideas and thoughts? You know, coupled onto what Mr. Kulp said, too, about depreciation? Mr. Strobel. Depreciation is a significant problem. It is very complex. People do not know whether they should take a period expense or expense something immediately. So it is far beyond depreciation. If somebody is going to repair a vehicle, is that a depreciable event or is that a period expense? They spend--you can spend hours just trying to determine how that applies. So that is a great example. Capitalization versus expensing. The issues that are a problem, especially when it comes to this depreciation matter, currently it does not matter if a business has been in existence for 50 years. You can recapture all this depreciation and it can all of a sudden create ordinary income passing out of a S corporation when they sell those assets. That makes very little sense to me why that would happen. So complexity added with something like that is significant. Mr. Walker. I will ask the NSBA to follow up after the hearing with their specific recommendations. Chairman Graves. Please do. Ms. Velazquez. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Olson, there seems to be broad consensus that we should eliminate a number of deductions and credits and use those revenues to lower tax rates. However, when the recent deficit commission outlined a tax plan to accomplish this, it was blocked from being brought or considered in the House. So my question to you is how can comprehensive reform move forward if bipartisan recommendations like this never receive a vote? Ms. Olson. Well, I am not going to comment on the procedures of the House or the Senate. I am wiser than doing that. But I will respond by saying we have believed for a long time that there needs to be a dialogue and leadership, both in the House and in the administration, and also from the taxpayers themselves, that there has to be tax reform. And to up a plan, such as the Bipartisan Commission or the 2005 Presidential Commission, all are a good start. There are lots of good ideas out there. And what we need is the political will to be willing to work through those ideas. And whether it is just slugging it out in the Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee, and with the White House, we absolutely need this to go forward. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. Mr. Walker, we would like to hear specific areas that we could simplify the tax code so that we could help small businesses do what they do best. So firms, based on your own experience, firms generally fund their business operation by taking on debt or through equity financing. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but it is clear that the tax code favors debt financing since interest is deductible. So can you talk to us, when you advise firms, do you advise--and they finance their business--do you believe that we should address how the tax code treats debt versus equity financing as one area that maybe this Committee should be looking into? Mr. Walker. If anything has changed in the area of debt so that a small business is incapable of deducting the interest expense, that would be an adverse blow. Small business owners do not have the benefit of getting equity players. I think we could all walk outside and say that we do not see a long line of people wanting to take risk in small business investment. That is why entrepreneurs become entrepreneurs. They risk their own investment in themselves. So anything to change the debt structure that would eliminate or lower the interest--the ability to take an interest deduction is an adverse. It should only be looked to enhance some benefit that they could get. Ms. Velazquez. Mr. Kulp, you spoke about the depreciation schedule that is set at 39 years. If we look at our economy, one area where still it is very fragile is the housing construction area. Mr. Kulp. Sure. Ms. Velazquez. And so you said that the depreciation schedule for commercial roofs will have a positive impact. How is that the case that it will benefit other small businesses? Mr. Kulp. Great question. The NRCA did an extensive study a number of years ago that actually said that it would spur economic growth to the point where there would be 40,000 new jobs added to the roofing industry alone. And when you look at that along with, you know, that much more money flowing into the economy, one of my issues is static scoring versus dynamic scoring on the CBO. And I know I am not going to change that but it seems to me that if you look at how it plays out, enhancing owners' ability to move with roofing will definitely spur jobs and reduce the unemployment rate. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. Mr. Strobel, the Fair Tax Plan will impose a national sales tax and eliminate the income tax, as well as all current deductions and credits, yet this will mean that carrying tax incentives for renewable energy and energy efficient products will no longer exist. As someone in the energy industry, do you believe that these industries can remain viable without such policies? Mr. Strobel. I think they can. Just to be clear, as an executive with BlueStar I am not advocating the fair tax that is an advocate position of the National Small Business Association. I think there is a place for some incentives. We see that with a lot of energy efficiency customers that there is an opportunity for them to take advantage of incentives. But there are real economic gains in our energy efficiency businesses where we go in and do a lighting retrofit, for instance, in a facility. Part of it is the incentives that are available but more importantly, it is the economic benefits of actually using less energy. So in the grand scheme of things I think there are some incentives and some rationale to the incentives but we find that many of our customers are more driven by the overall economics whether or not there are incentives. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Chairman Graves. Mr. West. Mr. West. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member. We sat here and the question to the panel, we have all agreed that the tax code as it stands now is pretty complex, onerous, and I guess there are many with a loophole in there. So my question would be there are two reform perspectives out there: one is a flat tax and one is a fair tax. I would like to get your assessments on how those two reform systems, would it benefit or hinder the small businesses? And then maybe your estimation on what would be good rates for those respective systems. So flat tax, fair tax. Ms. Olson. Well, my office has written this past year or a year ago about a value-added tax and the administrative challenges for the Internal Revenue Service doing something like a sales tax that would be proposed in the fair tax. And we have concluded that it is doable. You would have to deal with the states, many of whom have their own and there are a lot of transition issues. Most of the countries around the world do not just have a sales tax alone because it would have to be so high. They have some kind of low level income tax and then a sales tax as well. So I think it is doable. It is just whether people will step up to that. I would note one thing. What some commentators have said is the sales tax sort of disappears how much tax you are really paying depending on how it is reported on your receipt. In some countries around the world you never see it broken out. It is in the broken price that shows up on your receipt at the end and you have to think do you really want that disappeared or do you want people conscious of what they are paying. Mr. Strobel. Congressman, I would say I do not know if there is--it is a binary choice. There is probably going to be a mixture of some sort of rate reduction, hopefully, and I think that is the key as far as we are concerned. I think the lower the taxes, the better for the business. The more investment we can make in the business the faster we can grow and the more people we can hire. So I think the notion of reduced tax rate, which implies a reduced level of government expenditure, I think is the key to the long-term prosperity of our economy. Mr. Kulp. As a small business owner I would say that anything that takes away the complexity and gives a long-term view is a good thing. It is so difficult with the complexity that we have now, you do not know really until the end of the year what we owe in taxes. I am an LLC. Money all flows through to me. I claim it on my personal income. The NRCA I do not know has taken a stance on this per se and I am here testifying on their behalf, but as a small business owner myself I would see that as an excellent alternative to a tax code that is miles thick. Mr. Walker. I concur with Ms. Olson. I do not see how we can level off with one sales tax and I am also concerned that eliminating all tax levels and going to a single sales tax demotivates capital improvement. You have got to provide some incentive for people to invest. And so this is a tough situation but I know we can minimize the impact to small businesses by lowering the complexity of the code, just removing it completely, and going to some single layer tax, that could be very tough. Ms. Olson. If I might add, I think some advocates of a sales tax, forget how complex the state sales tax are with all of their exemptions and what constitutes a service versus a product and things like that. So you might find that you just have added a new volume of the International Revenue Code when you, you know, enact a sales tax. So it can be complex. Mr. West. And a follow-up question for Mr. Kulp and Mr. Strobel then. What type of incentives do you think could be provided as far as our tax code to, you know, help you to grow your businesses? Mr. Kulp. That is a good question. Mr. West. Well, I try to think of good questions. Mr. Kulp. Well, and that is a stalling tactic. Good question. Mr. Strobel. At least for our business, clearly in the energy efficiency business I think there is some room for promoting more energy efficiency, more rationale allocation of resources, at least in the energy industry. And so I think there is room for that in our industry. There is no doubt about it. Mr. Kulp. And probably more on a global level, I guess, from my own, the way I think is I do not like when the government chooses winners and losers so I have a hard time in articulating that well. But the NRCA staff I am sure would be delighted to work with you on that. Mr. West. Thank you very much. And I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Graves. Mr. Schrader. Mr. Schrader. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Briefly, to Mr. Walker and Ms. Olson. Last Congress passed a small business health care tax deduction and we all do these wonderful things trying to help small business. But my question to you two is have you gotten any calls on that and how easy is that actually? Ms. Olson. Well, it is a very complex deduction and my office has been working very hard to actually develop a calculator that we can roll out on, you know, we are going to test it internally with some fact patterns and then try to get it ready to roll out so that people can calculate how many full-time equivalents they have and how they meet that because it is a very complex provision. And if we do not do that, we will probably have a lot of inadvertent noncompliance. And more importantly, people not benefitting themselves, you know, achieving, receiving the benefits of a provision. Mr. Schrader. They will not take advantage. Ms. Olson. They will not take it. Mr. Walker, do you concur? Mr. Walker. I concur. I am glad Ms. Olson mentioned the calculator. In all of the calls that I have received on this I have been saying I hope somebody comes out with something to calculate this. So that is the answer we are all looking for. Mr. Schrader. All right. Very good. Very good. Pretty much everyone here has testified about the complexity of the tax code and there is a proposal out there. The only one I know of has gotten great bipartisan support on a national level and that was put forward by the Fiscal Commission. It does not get much simpler than eliminating every single tax expenditure and lowering all the rates to a mythological figure that no one in America could ever believe possible again of 814 and I think it is, what 25 percent or something like that? And corporate tax rate drops down to where we are almost competitive with the rest of the world. If you talk about the global competitiveness piece, to me, and of course you could add back targeted things to encourage investment at certain points in time when this Congress or the next Congress feel it is warranted or to take, you know, some disadvantaged populations. To me, I think if we had the political courage to do anything that is simple that even I could understand in my veterinary practice, it would be to do that type of proposal. Could you comment on whether or not you are for that proposal and what you think your members might be interested in? Mr. Walker. I believe moving down to a simpler tax structure will work. I will go back to a prior comment. When we removed all the barriers and create simplification, there still has to be something there to incentivize. And so what will occur inevitably is it will create--we will go down to a simple process and it will begin to re-expand itself with complexity because we have to provide incentives to invest. So I think that would happen. Chairman Graves. Mr. Kulp. Mr. Kulp. The overall tax code is not a part of this thing but back to the 3 percent withholding for government contracts. To me that is something that is so easy to eliminate and it just does not make sense. I know it is one small step but, again, that is, I guess, the only input I have on that. Chairman Graves. Mr. Strobel. Mr. Strobel. There is a lot of attractiveness in the simplicity of what you have just described. I like that a lot. I think that as far as targeted incentives for investment, I think the fact that companies would have more capital available to let them figure out what they would invest in. Chairman Graves. Good point. Mr. Strobel. I mentioned before, we talked a little bit about potential targeted investment in energy efficiency. I think that has a larger policy aspect to it, an energy self- sufficiency, energy independence, element to it that is attractive to us as a company and to me personally. Chairman Graves. Ms. Olson. Ms. Olson. I think that, you know, we have recommended that we start with zero-based budgeting, that you just eliminate everything and then go piece by piece and say does this need to come in through the code? And that goes to the compelling public policy. Is there a public policy reason for putting something in the code? And then you ask what would it do to taxpayers who are the target of this public policy? Will they be able to comply with it? What will it do to the IRS? Will they torment taxpayers? Will the IRS not be able to administer it? If I could talk for a minute about the withholding requirement, one thing that we have recommended instead of the 3 percent is to require federal contractors, you know, the federal agency that is contracting, to get a response from the IRS whether that contractor is in compliance with their federal tax obligations before the contract is awarded? And in that way you are doing it in a proactive way as part of a qualification process, a procurement process, rather than doing withholding. And you get to the same results. You are only giving contracts to contractors who are compliant with their federal taxes. Mr. Schrader. I think that is a good idea but simplicity is the key. I mean, the reason why we have all these gyrations with 3 percent is the government is trying to make money off of us at the bottom line and you pick winners and losers to your gentleman's comments and I think the beauty of what is being proposed by the Fiscal Commission allows us to do targeted or specific periods of time that I think Congress should review. And when that has outlived its usefulness and we moved to something else. It is energy maybe right right now. Maybe it is something else later on. I think I have a lot of confidence, believe it or not, in this Congress and in the Congress that is coming down the line but we have got to get small business some relief right now. Thank you. And I yield back. Mr. Barletta. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My wife and I, we are small business owners and we were a subchapter S corporation so I understand how raising taxes on businesses and people earning over $250,000 will affect--have a direct effect on small business. Since I am here, I am a freshman, you know, all we have talked about was jobs and how we create jobs. And there is not a better committee than this Committee right here. When we talk about putting Americans back to work, seven out of ten jobs created are created by small business. So I understated how regulation and uncertainty affects small business. My question is to Mr. Walker. Can you please provide more details about the impact of Congress constantly reauthorizing expiring provisions of the tax code on your small business? Mr. Walker. It was evident in this last session when it was unknown whether the current regulations were going to be extended. Many small business owners sat on the sideline and many budding entrepreneurs sat on the sideline simply waiting to see what was going to happen. We saw a downturn in any movements, pretty much any movements of businesses transitioning ownership, new ones coming in. So when the regulations are constantly changing, long-term planning becomes essentially impossible and a small business owner, if they cannot get their hands around it, they will sit idle. And it happens. So it is a negative to the economy when that goes on. Mr. Barletta. So you would agree that, you know, passing a tax code for one year, two years, an extension of one or two years is not really doing anything to remove the uncertainty that small businesses are looking for to be able to invest and create jobs. And I am going to follow that up with the environment that we have created here in Washington with the overregulation and the uncertainty and government-run health care. All the obstacles that small businesses look at. Do you believe that we are stopping the entrepreneurial spirit of American right now by our own doing here in Washington? Mr. Walker. I know for a fact that buying--not allowing extensions or regulations to be for periods of 8 years and 10 years. By not having that it does not motivate people to be willing to expose themselves to the kinds of debt and the risks it takes to really spur small business. I know that for a fact. So yes, doing these one- or two-year things are good for short- term savings tax deductions but they do not serve long-term planning needs. Mr. Barletta. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Graves. Ms. Chu. Ms. Chu. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to ask a question about the issue of classifying an employee as an employee or as an independent contractor. The IRS has a 20-factor test to determine classification and it's confusing and unclear from what I read from the testimony that you have submitted. And there are small businesses that fear the penalties that will ensue if a worker is misclassified. In addition, of course, workers can be cheated if they are misclassified because they do not receive benefits and could lose the protection of employment and labor laws. So it is to the benefit of everybody to be accurately classified as either an independent contractor or an employee. I know Mr. Walker and Ms. Olson, you both addressed this? Mr. Walker, what would we have to do to simplify the classifications so that both workers and employers could benefit? Mr. Walker. It would be a very definitive break to say the least. An employee falls into a particular category or a contractor falls into a particular category. Unfortunately, that is not the case right now. You simply have to make a decision based on what you think is applicable to that person. At present, if somebody is going to step up and be a contractor, if they were providing services to three or four other people doing similar type work, you can get comfortable with their contractor. But if they are only working for that one entrepreneur, then they may be an employee. Now, unfortunately, that puts the onus on the employer, the entrepreneur, to have to figure out what is going on in that person's life. And that is difficult. So there needs to be some very definite definitions put in place as to what is an employee versus a contractor. Ms. Chu. Do you have any suggestions? Mr. Walker. The type of work that they will be rendering. I think they have done a great job right now in saying does this person provide their own equipment? Are they controlled by the entrepreneur? That is a good way of doing it. But when you come in and look at the type of services that are being delivered, that is one way of breaking it down. It could be broken down into an industry. Make it very clear that the contractor, if they are going to place it with a contractor, has to submit something to the employer giving information about their background. Right now that is not required and it is simply a service agent uncovering something they find was not compliant and the entrepreneur is in trouble. So there has to be a bridge between the people who are being hired and the entrepreneur. But the code does need to come up somehow. The only thing that is there is the 20-point test and it is just designed to say is there much control. That is the only thing that is in the code right now, how much control is there? That needs to be somehow expanded. Ms. Chu. Ms. Olson. Ms. Olson. We have had lots of discussions with the business and small business community and their concerns are where we are with the status quo, that the IRS is not allowed to issue guidance other than what we have got out there. It is that they do not trust the IRS and what kind of guidance it is going to issue. So what we have proposed to break the logjam is that the IRS be instructed to engage with the business community and talk through just the very issues that Mr. Walker is raising, come up with some proposed guidance to submit to the tax writing committees, and that would form a basis. And then Congress could react to that if they felt that the IRS had not listened sufficiently to small business, et cetera. I think that, you know, where we are is that there does need to be change for all the reasons that you have mentioned. And I will say once we come up with the clear sense of where we want to go with this, I had visited the United Kingdom and they actually have on their website a question and answer process for the employer to go through and answer these questions and it will get an answer back. If they do not--if you are an employer or, you know, you have independent contractors, if you do not like the answer it is not binding you of appeal rights. But if you like the answer, then unless you have misrepresented, you can rely on that as a safe harbor. And I think that is what businesses need. You know, a safe harbor. They need certainty. They need to know one way or another so they can proceed and plan. Ms. Chu. Thank you. And could you also just say a few words about the business tax forms? You recommended two changes to business tax forms to improve reporting and tax compliance, just simply adding a line to Schedule C and adding check boxes to business tax returns. Could you elaborate on this? Ms. Olson. Well, actually, the IRS is actually going forward with this. One thing we had suggested was just that businesses be required to break out, you know, here are our receipts from 1099s that have been reported to the IRS. And here are our receipts other than what is being reported. And good accounting systems you just back out what your 1099s are. And we thought that would help drive some people who are in the cash economy to sort of report a little bit more. And then the other question was a lot of people do not know that they have to do this information reporting so we really wanted to jog people's memories and say, you know, if you are a small business person and you have paid people over $600 for services provided in the course of business, you know, have you filed your 1099s? And both of those are little behavioral reminders but would generate some additional income. As a former preparer, I have seen what my taxpayers have done, my clients did, you know. They would add up their 1099s and then they would add a couple thousand dollars and say that is the additional amount we made. But maybe they add up and say more than a couple thousand dollars if that question were there. Ms. Chu. And this is being implemented? Ms. Olson. The IRS is implementing a version of this now. Ms. Chu. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman Graves. Mr. Walsh. Mr. Walsh. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to each and every witness for coming in today, especially you, Mr. Strobel, from close to home in Chicago. Thank you. Let me throw maybe a couple softballs your way. Expensing. Right now you have got to calculate depreciation and deduct that from your taxes. Would it be a heck of a lot easier if you could just write off the full cost of expenses in the first year? What would that do? What would that do, good or bad? Mr. Strobel. Well, from a tax perspective you would be better. I mean, there would be less tax to pay, more money available for investment. Mr. Walsh. And what would that lead to? Less tax to pay would lead to what? Mr. Strobel. More money to invest in the business. More money to grow the business. More money to market. More money to understand our customers. It should lead to growth. It should lead to us be more competitive, help us be more differentiated and be more profitable. But also be able to employ more people. We need people to grow the business. Mr. Walsh. Mr. Kulp. Mr. Kulp. I would agree with that. If the Section 179 I think it is called. I am not an accountant myself but my accountant tells me this, it is obviously put there for a reason by Congress because it does exactly what you are thinking it should do. It simply makes sense to be able to expense as much as possible. It makes you invest in the business, hire people, and buy goods and services that you otherwise would not. Mr. Walsh. Mr. Walker. Mr. Walker. I concur. If you are able to write off 100 percent of your equipment costs, you lower income, lower tax, increase discretionary income. That is what allows somebody to actually make an investment and bring in people. I know on one occasion that I can think of right off the top of my head, a new business owner was coming in, had plans to hire five people, had to cut that down to three because they could not deduct a number of the items that they had projected they could once their accountant told them what they were actually going to be able to take as a deduction. A lot of it was equipment investment. So I know that that happens. Mr. Walsh. Ms. Olson, would that be a good thing? Ms. Olson. Well, I think you would also have to address the issue of recapture that Mr. Walker spoke about because in our office that is where we see problems for taxpayers. It is a gotcha. You know, they do not know it exists and then suddenly they have disposed of an asset that they depreciated fully under 179 and then the liability is all back to them. So you have to deal with that. Mr. Walsh. You know, thankfully, it looks like Congress is repealing the 1099 that was part of the health care legislation from last year. 1099s, though, are still an issue, even prior to this edition with the health care legislation. You still have to fill out 1099s and I am guessing that costs money and that is still a headache. Any sense as currently constituted they are an undue burden? Mr. Strobel? Mr. Kulp? Mr. Strobel. I guess I would say: Is it an undue burden? Filling out 1099s for us is not an undue burden. Mr. Walsh. Mr. Kulp. Mr. Kulp. For us I guess we have gotten used to it to the point where, you know, it is like a frog thrown into the frying pan. You do not really know. But I believe the repeal of the 1099 within the health care provision is absolutely necessary because that would just proliferate them and make it very, very onerous and complex. Mr. Walsh. Mr. Walker. Mr. Walker. The 1099 reporting as it currently is without the additional, it needs to be there. And I happen to come across many people who believe that if they have been paid less than $600, they are not even supposed to pay income tax on that. So they even misunderstand the regs. But without having a 1099 reporting, absolutely income tax collections would go down. People would find ways to hide that money because they would believe nobody knows they made it. So it is necessary with our current structure. Mr. Walsh. Ms. Olson, quick question. Is the IRS planning at all on implementing any sort of substantive e-filing system for business taxes? Ms. Olson. You know, I have not seen those plans and we have advocated for that for years. Even they used to have a system just for employment tax where you could use your telephone and they eliminated that. We did a study last year that said you need to reinstitute that. That is the only free electronic method for employment, you know, businesses to file. Mr. Walsh. Why do not you think there has been movement on that? Ms. Olson. I think it is a combination of both the concern on the part of the software developers, that the IRS is intruding on their environment, as well as it is not going to be a capital investment on the part of the IRS. You will need to fund the IRS to be able to do that. I just, I feel it really is a necessity. We have an obligation to do that, particularly for small businesses. Mr. Walsh. Thank you, all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman Graves. Mr. Altmire. Mr. Altmire. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Walker, I want to follow up on the 1099 question. If the President signs as expected the repeal that the Congress sent him for the health care $600 1099s, what would the law then revert to? What is the threshold for filling out 1099 forms? Mr. Walker. Six hundred dollars. It is right now $600 and greater. Now, there are different levels of 1099s but we are talking about just a general miscellaneous 1099 is a $600 amount. And that is an appropriate amount. That should not go away. Mr. Altmire. Above that. Mr. Walker. Anything at that or above. Mr. Altmire. Thank you. Mr. Strobel, regarding the fair tax, I am glad you are here because I wanted to catch you with some questions on this or have a conversation. Is it your understanding under the Fair Tax proposal, what happens to the FICA tax, the Medicare and Social Security? Mr. Strobel. We are going to have to follow up with you and the National Small Business Association. We will follow up on that question. All right? Mr. Altmire. Okay. My concern on that would be what happens to the way we fund Social Security and Medicare under that. Where did that number come from, the 23 percent with regard to the fair tax proposal? It is budget neutral according to the proponents of the Fair Tax? Who is the determinant of that? Who scores it? Mr. Strobel. The NSBA will follow up with you on that. Mr. Altmire. Okay. What about the percentage--do you generally know as a small business what is the percentage of small businesses that comply with sales tax currently? Mr. Strobel. I do not know. That is another--we can follow up with you. Mr. Altmire. That would be a concern that I believe the number assumes 100 percent compliance and under current law there is certainly nothing close to 100 percent compliance on the sales tax. So if you could have somebody from the association follow up with us. Mr. Strobel. Yes, we will. Mr. Altmire. Ms. Olson, the IRS Commissioner recently stated that he would like to overhaul the tax, as you know, administration process by focusing on third party reporting, and namely he wants to move to a system where the IRS would already have third party information when taxpayers file their returns. And as we were discussing, the 1099 reporting is an example of third party reporting. Do you believe that there is a way to implement such a program without creating the same sort of situation that we had with the 1099 regulations under the health care bill? Ms. Olson. Well, first, a couple of years ago we recommended that Congress force the IRS to look at the issue of getting income data in real-time during the filing season so taxpayers could download it into their software programs or the IRS could make it available to taxpayers in another way. So I welcomed, you know, the Commissioner's, you know, remarks in that regard. I am concerned with the recent love of 1099 reporting. As much as I recognize and am an advocate for appropriate 1099 reporting because it does change taxpayer behavior. Once they know that we know the information, 96 percent of the time they report it on their returns. But there is a point of diminishing returns where the IRS gets so much information or the burden is being imposed on taxpayers who do not normally keep track of that information that you just create a real headache, which is what we saw with the expansion of information reporting. So I think as we go out with information reporting we really have to think about that point of diminishing returns. I do not think the IRS should ask for information that it cannot do anything about or that the information itself is not really going to give us a clear picture of what is going on with taxpayers. Having said that, you know, we can tell the taxpayer a lot. We can tell them what their wages are. We can tell them what their interest is. We can now tell them what their capital gains or losses are because we have basis reporting. And all of those are really beneficial things for the taxpayers and will minimize errors. Mr. Altmire. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Graves. Mr. Owens. Mr. Owens. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Walker, there is some information that we have gotten that says there is about $160 billion a year that is spent in tax compliance work. Now, if we simplified the code, would we not put folks like you out of business in large numbers? Mr. Walker. It very well could be. Because I am here advocating that I will probably get some phone calls. Mr. Owens. From your colleagues I suspect. Mr. Walker. From my colleagues. It will not eliminate the profession; it will just change the dynamic of the services delivered. Mr. Owens. But certainly it will shrink it if we see a decrease in those kinds of dollars diverted, right? Mr. Walker. It would need to. Right. Mr. Owens. I just always am curious about the unintended consequences of what we do here. I want to raise one other question. We talked a little bit about the 179 deduction and there was some discussion about recapture issues, but there is also another issue that creates tax consequences and that is not matching up the amortization of the debt used to acquire the piece of capital equipment and the loss of the deduction because you have taken it in one year. Does that create any issues and do you see any way around that issue that we could implement? Mr. Walker. Is that for me? Mr. Owens. For you, yes. Mr. Walker. So your question is to the deduction on the 179 that is compared to the actual cash outlay that has occurred? Mr. Owens. Correct. Well, not cash--if you do a cash outlay I agree it is not an issue. Mr. Walker. Okay. Mr. Owens. Because then it is a wash. But if you finance, which most small businesses do, capital acquisitions, then you are in a situation where unless you can repeat the process every year you are in a position where you are creating a tax where there is no income. Mr. Walker. You have got a deduction where there is no income? Mr. Owens. Right. Mr. Walker. Well, the deduction then can be moved. So once you have taken the deduction, the deduction goes up to zeroing out your income and then it flows over into the next year. So the carry forward could allow that to happen. I do not see a problem with people getting a full deduction. The problem I have is limiting the benefit that they can get from that deduction. Under current 179 regulations, if somebody owns five different S corporations and they all take advantage of the deduction, you will--that deduction goes to the individual tax return. And if the same person owns all businesses that person can only have one 179 deduction. So right now that is 500,000. But if you had 5 businesses maxing that out, there is 2.5 million. That business owner could lose $2 million worth of deductions the way the code is written right now. So allowing the deductions is not the problem; it is making sure that you can benefit from that and moving it forward if you lose the ability to take a deduction in the year that you have actually done the 179 election. Mr. Owens. And we have also had a lot of conversation today about the issue of tax expenditures and whether or not we should eliminate all of those or whether, as you are suggesting, we should be doing targeting or targeted either tax deductions or tax credits. Does not that put Congress in the position of selecting winners? Mr. Walker. I do not know if it puts them in the position of selecting winners because it would apply across the spectrum of all the business owners. It is a targeting effect. Even if we simplify, just completely simplify, we will still have some targeting that will need to be done within the system over time. So it is the people who can take advantage of it and all these small business owners and the things at least we have talked about today, it applies to all of them. So it is not going to be one particular person or one particular sector. Mr. Owens. But it will be a particular--potentially a particular industry. Like, if you created an R&D credit for solar energy you would be solely focused on that particular industry. Mr. Walker. That would be accurate. But a 179 issue---- Mr. Owens. Oh, I am sorry. I may have confused you because I was not just talking about 179. I was talking about the panoply of various credits we have in the tax code now. Mr. Walker. Right. Mr. Owens. If we eliminated all of those, and then you are suggesting we build them back up over time, you would be selecting winners to some degree, like we have now. Mr. Walker. Like we have now. Correct. Mr. Owens. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you. Chairman Graves. Ms. Clarke. Ms. Clarke. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Chairman Graves, and Ranking Member Velazquez. And I want to thank the panel for testifying before us today. I would first like to just say that over the course of this Congress much has been said about our nation's deficit as it should be. I agree that we must aggressively tackle the debt. Unfortunately, I do not believe that we have been having an honest conversation with the American people about why we are in this deficit and how we can get out of it. Again, while I agree that we must address our deficit, it must be done responsibly. However, I disagree with the constant refrain of the majority that says that we do not have a revenue problem and I think that is at the heart of what small business is trying to address here today is the complexity of our tax system. The refrain is that we have a spending problem. The fact of the matter is that we have both. And at the beginning of the last decade we were operating with budget surpluses. Now we are operating at staggering deficits. And while we have two undeclared wars and an economic downturn have played a considerable role in increasing our debt, it is crystal clear that we began our sprint down this road due to what I believe were irresponsible tax cuts for those who could have most afforded them and robbing the Treasury of that much-needed revenue. The majority is now using this lack of revenue as a justification to cut programs for the most vulnerable Americans. And many of my colleagues on the other side have sort of echoed Mr. Strobel's testimony lamenting the 35 percent corporate tax rate as the world's most expensive and it limits our global competitiveness, yet on March 24th of this year The New York Times published a story on how General Electric, one of our nation's largest corporations paid absolutely 0 in taxes after posting 14.2 billion in profits, 5.1 billion which was made right here in the United States of America. So while I agree that we need to work hard to limit the burdens on our small businesses, and I agree in principle with President Obama about the need to reform the tax code, it seems to me that through our panel's testimony the goal here is to apply a tax code to our extraordinarily complex global economy that reflects little to no nuance or complexity. The attainment of the American dream is what makes our country and its civil society one of the greatest in the world. Our nation offers an opportunity for financial success and prosperity that cannot be found anywhere else on the planet. However, unfortunately, due to a number of factors, the attainment of the American dream has become elusive, so much so that many people, many small entrepreneurs are finding it hard to gain footing, access to capital, access to lending. So my question to the panel is what do you believe is the responsibility of those who have been successful to this country that has made their success possible? It is for the entire panel. Ms. Olson. I do not know how to answer that question other than to say that every person and entity owes an obligation to the United States to pay their fair share of taxes under our laws. And if our laws are structured in a way so that as Congress has enacted them so that those with the assets and the ability to retain advisors who can find ways to structure their affairs so they pay less tax than the person or the entity that cannot afford that, then we have a tax system that is out of whack. And our testimony has been--my testimony has been, and my writing have been to that point. I think that it is not possible to get pure simplicity in a code. We are human beings, and as you say, we live in a very complex world. But we can do a much better job than the environment that we have today. Ms. Clarke. What I find ironic is that we do not hear anyone speak out when, for instance, GE pays no taxes. I have not heard from all of the business councils, all of the small business councils. And it would seem to me that if we are talking about fair tax and fair share, that it should go both ways. And so I just wanted to put that on the table, Mr. Chairman, because I think we need to look at what is happening in its entirety. And I yield back. Chairman Graves. Any more questions? Well, I want to say, as this Committee continues to focus on job creation we certainly appreciate hearing from all of you on the complexity that small businesses deal with when it comes to following the tax code and the problems that creates when it comes to job creation. I wanted to let everybody know following today's hearing we are going to be sending a letter to the chairman and ranking member of the House Ways and Means Committee to share with them what we heard today. We want to make sure that small business's voice is being heard loud and clear when they are dealing with fundamental tax reform. So with that I would ask unanimous consent that members have five legislative days to submit their statements and supporting materials for the record. And again, I appreciate all of you coming out today and sharing with us your thoughts and ideas and concerns. The hearing is adjourned. 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