    [Senate Hearing 111-1076]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                           S. Hrg. 111-1076

                         NOMINATION OF EUGENE L. DODARO

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                             HOMELAND SECURITY AND
                              GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                         ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

    NOMINATION OF EUGENE L. DODARO TO BE COMPTROLLER GENERAL OF THE UNITED
                 STATES, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

                                   __________

                               NOVEMBER 18, 2010

             Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security
                            and Governmental Affairs

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            COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

                   JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
    CARL LEVIN, Michigan                 SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
    DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii              TOM COBURN, Oklahoma
    THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           SCOTT P. BROWN, Massachusetts
    MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas              JOHN McCAIN, Arizona
    MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana          GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
    CLAIRE McCASKILL, Missouri           JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada
    JON TESTER, Montana                  LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina
    ROLAND W. BURRIS, Illinois
    CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware

                      Michael L. Alexander, Staff Director
                       Lawrence B. Novey, Senior Counsel
                          Jonathan M. Kraden, Counsel
                   Kristine V. Lam, Professional Staff Member
         Brandon L. Milhorn, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel
            Amanda Wood, Minority Director for Governmental Affairs
                        Lisa M. Nieman, Minority Counsel
                       Jennifer L. Tarr, Minority Counsel
                      Trina Driessnack Tyrer, Chief Clerk
             Patricia R. Hogan, Publications Clerk and GPO Detailee
                        Laura W. Kilbride, Hearing Clerk

                                C O N T E N T S

                                     ------
    Opening statements:
                                                                       Page
        Senator Lieberman............................................     1
        Senator Collins..............................................     2
        Senator Akaka................................................     3
        Senator Carper...............................................    18
    Prepared statements:
        Senator Lieberman............................................    23
        Senator Collins..............................................    24
        Senator Akaka................................................    26

                                    WITNESS
                          Thursday, November 18, 2010

    Eugene L. Dodaro to be Comptroller General of the United States,
      U.S. Government Accountability Office:
        Testimony....................................................     4
        Prepared statement...........................................    28
        Biographical and Financial Information.......................    31
        Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................    79
        Letter from Office of Government Ethics......................   115

                         NOMINATION OF EUGENE L. DODARO

                                  ----------

                          THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 2010

                                           U.S. Senate,
                           Committee on Homeland Security and
                                          Governmental Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:10 p.m., in
    room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph I.
    Lieberman, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Lieberman, Akaka, Carper and Collins.

                OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN LIEBERMAN

        Chairman Lieberman. The hearing will come to order.
        I apologize for being late. The subway actually did break
    down, but it was a healthy walk for me.
        Our hearing today is on the nomination of Eugene Dodaro to
    be Comptroller General of the United States and thereby to lead
    the Government Accountability Office (GAO).
        The next line in my statement is an understatement: Mr.
    Dodaro is not a newcomer to government. [Laughter.]
        Or to GAO. He joined GAO right out of college in 1973 as an
    entry-level auditor and in less than 10 years was elevated to
    the rank of senior executive. He served as Assistant
    Comptroller General of the Accounting and Information
    Management Division from 1993 to 1999 and Chief Operating
    Officer, which is the No. 2 position at the agency, for 8 years
    after that. For the past 2\1/2\ years, he has really ably led
    GAO as Acting Comptroller General.
        I must say in the selection process that led to this
    nomination there was a lot of pushing and pulling and concern
    about politics, but in the end the process and the President
    really did select the best possible person for this job. And I
    say that with such confidence because we know you, and we have
    worked so closely with you, and yours is clearly a merit
    selection, by no means influenced by politics, which is exactly
    what this position is all about.
        I think in a lot of ways we in Congress and more generally
    the American people--although they probably do not know your
    name or very few of them do--owe you a debt of gratitude for
    the work that you have done for almost 40 years to improve the
    performance and capacity of our government. This has risen to a
    crescendo demand from the public at this point, but you have
    been out there doing that all along.
        GAO is one of those Federal agencies that flies under the
    radar of most Americans. As an arm of the Legislative Branch of
    the government, GAO provides information and analysis to
    Congress and the Executive Branch, and I consider it to be
    really an independent, nonpartisan advocate for taxpayers on
    how their money is being spent.
        GAO does not offer policy proposals to solve the challenges
    on which it reports. That is the job of the President and
    Congress. Instead, we rely on a clear-eyed presentation of
    solid facts and constructive recommendations to help our
    government operate efficiently.
        And, Mr. Dodaro, that is exactly what you and those you
    have worked with, and now I hope will supervise, have done for
    many years. So I am delighted to preside at this hearing on
    your nomination and also pleased now to call on Senator
    Collins.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COLLINS

        Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        As the Chairman has indicated, today we consider the
    nomination of Gene Dodaro to head the Government Accountability
    Office as our Nation's next Comptroller General. As Congress's
    primary watchdog, the GAO has a critical role to play in the
    efficiency and effectiveness of government. Its independent
    audits and nonpartisan investigations help to identify wasteful
    and ineffective spending and to promote transparency and
    accountability.
        The GAO dates to 1921 when the Federal Government's
    financial management was in disarray. The country was awash in
    debt, saddled with the enormous costs of World War I. As the
    debt mounted, lawmakers faced a lack of reliable information
    and lax controls over government expenditures. In many ways, I
    have described what is happening today. Many observers, in
    fact, would say that we face similar tests today and that GAO
    has never been more important as we work to overcome these
    challenges.
        GAO has a broad oversight mandate to investigate Federal
    programs on behalf of Congress. To bolster its independence,
    the Comptroller General serves a single 15-year term, giving
    the GAO's leader an autonomy that transcends election cycles.
    Given the length of the term and the importance of the GAO
    mission, the Comptroller General must provide strong leadership
    and chart a visionary future for the agency.
        Our Nation desperately needs aggressive and independent
    oversight of the Federal Government. We are living in an era of
    historic deficits, crippling unemployment, and smaller budgets.
    As the government tightens its belt, the GAO, which has been
    labeled ``the American taxpayers' best friend,'' must remain an
    unabashed advocate for the public and a protective steward of
    Federal resources.
        At a time when virtually every household in America is
    grappling with tight finances, the objective, factual, and
    credible reports from the GAO provide an important accounting
    of the Federal Government's operations. These audits and
    investigations, aimed at uncovering waste, fraud, abuse, and
    mismanagement, can propel needed reforms, and indeed GAO's
    findings and recommendations are often the foundation for
    legislative or other congressional action.
        As the recent elections have made clear, the public is no
    longer willing to accept the status quo. That means that the
    obligation for Congress to effectively conduct oversight has
    never been more important. As the new Congress begins in
    January and as we look for ways to make our government more
    effective and accountable, the GAO and its next leader will
    play a critical role.
        As the Chairman has indicated, Mr. Dodaro's career at the
    GAO has spanned more than 30 years, and he has been Acting
    Comptroller General since 2008. I look forward to hearing more
    about his vision for this important agency, as well as
    discussing with him specific areas where I believe additional
    oversight is warranted. The next Comptroller General must
    ensure that the ``congressional watchdog'' zealously safeguards
    the interests of the American taxpayer.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Collins.
        It has become a Committee rule that usually the Chairman
    and the Ranking Member only give opening statements, but I
    really would like to ask Senator Akaka if he would like to give
    an opening statement. He has been so much involved with you in
    the work of GAO.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA

        Senator Akaka. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Dodaro, I want to welcome you to this Committee and
    congratulate you on your nomination. And I also want to welcome
    your entire family and thank them for being here today and for
    their support throughout your career.
        My Subcommittee on Oversight of Government Management, the
    Federal Workforce, and the District of Columbia works closely
    with GAO to address management challenges on the high-risk list
    and to improve the Federal Government's performance. Effective
    management is vital to making sure the Federal Government can
    fulfill its mission as we confront serious fiscal challenges.
        I want to express my appreciation for your plans to promote
    greater awareness of financial literacy. Financial literacy is
    central to fostering a strong economic recovery and to the
    financial stability of millions of individuals and families.
        You assumed leadership of GAO as the Acting Comptroller
    General 2 years ago during a very challenging time. Your strong
    performance over the past 2 years gives me confidence that if
    you are confirmed GAO will continue to provide Congress with
    the high quality, objective information that is critical for
    effective oversight, and I look forward to that.
        Mr. Dodaro, thank you very much for agreeing to serve in
    this position. I wish you well in your confirmation process.
        Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Akaka.
        Mr. Dodaro has filed responses to a biographical and
    financial questionnaire, answered pre-hearing questions
    submitted by the Committee, and had his financial statements
    reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. This information,
    without objection, will be made part of the hearing record,
    with the exception of the financial data, which are on file and
    available for public inspection in the Committee offices.
        Mr. Dodaro, I know you know that our Committee rules
    require that all witnesses at nomination hearings give their
    testimony under oath. So I would ask you to stand and please
    raise your right hand.
        Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will
    be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
    help you, God?
        Mr. Dodaro. I do.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thank you. Please be seated. We would
    welcome an opening statement, if you would like, now and the
    introduction of any family members or others that you have with
    you.

    TESTIMONY OF EUGENE L. DODARO \1\ TO BE COMPTROLLER GENERAL OF
        THE UNITED STATES, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

        Mr. Dodaro. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Dodaro appears in the Appendix on
    page 28.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Good afternoon to you, Senator Collins and Senator Akaka. I
    am very pleased to be here.
        I am pleased to be here with my family supporting me as
    they have throughout my career. My wife, Joan Dodaro, is here,
    along with my oldest daughter, Sara, and her husband, Jeremy
    Carver, and my grandson, Bryce, who has made his presence known
    already. He is actually one of the reasons I am pursuing this
    job after a lengthy career and going forward because of the
    significance of the issues that all of you mentioned today.
        I also have my son, Benjamin, who is behind me here, my
    youngest daughter, Samantha, and her fiance, Chris Carley.
        I would also like to recognize my parents. I know they are
    watching via the computer. My mother never had a computer until
    I became Acting Comptroller General. Now she is an elder geek.
    [Laughter.]
        So I know that she is watching very carefully. They have
    all been very supportive of me.
        I appreciate the opportunity to be here today to discuss my
    nomination for the Comptroller General position. I want to
    thank the bipartisan bicameral Congressional Commission for
    having trust and confidence in me and forwarding my name to the
    President, which included you, Senator Lieberman, and Senator
    Collins. Thank you.
        I also appreciate the trust and support entrusted to me by
    President Obama in nominating me for this position.
        I would also like to take this unique opportunity to thank
    the thousands of GAO people who have worked with me over the
    many years, and if it were not for their dedicated and talented
    support I would not be here before you today.
        I have, as you mentioned, answered many questions and
    provided a lot of information for the record about my views on
    the GAO, the roles and responsibilities of the Comptroller
    General, and my vision for leading the organization. There are
    a few points, however, I would like to emphasize this morning.
        I pledge to faithfully and diligently carry out the mission
    of the GAO to support the Congress in carrying out its
    constitutional responsibilities and to help improve the
    performance and accountability of the Federal Government for
    the benefit of the American people.
        As you mentioned in your opening comments, there are many
    domestic and international challenges confronting our country
    now that are important to the well-being of our citizens and
    the security and prosperity of our country, and GAO can help.
    We can help by continuing to provide an important source of
    independent, professional, fact-based, nonpartisan information
    to the Congress, to help it make important policy choices and
    to exercise its oversight responsibilities, to help make sure
    that taxpayer dollars are spent in the best interest of the
    country and that government performance operates effectively
    for the benefit of our citizens.
        GAO is a trusted advisor to the Congress, and my view would
    be that we need to continue to enhance that responsibility, to
    tackle these difficult challenges going forward.
        Now my vision for accomplishing this would be to build upon
    the solid foundation that we have established in the GAO and to
    continue to enhance and evolve our role to support the
    committees across the Congress as an institution. GAO serves
    every standing committee of the Congress and about 70 percent
    of the subcommittees. So it is very important for us to know
    what the most important national issues are, to engage in a
    continuing dialogue with Members of Congress and their staffs,
    to make sure that we are working collaboratively and
    identifying the most important issues for GAO to work on, and
    for us to have the talented and dedicated support of the people
    necessary to be able to do that.
        So the first point I would make is that GAO is a full-
    service organization, and it will remain so going forward if I
    am confirmed as Comptroller General, and it will continue to
    enhance its capabilities across the board.
        Now within that broad context of supporting the institution
    of the Congress, I would like to see GAO place an even greater
    emphasis on identifying high-risk areas across the Federal
    Government and working collaboratively with the Congress, the
    agencies on the high-risk list, and the Office of Management
    and Budget (OMB) to resolve the problems. I would, if
    confirmed, want to during my 15-year tenure see as many areas
    as possible removed from that list and if any new ones are
    added that they are successfully tackled and addressed.
        I believe this can be done by elevating the attention to
    those high-risk areas within the agencies, setting good
    milestones and performance measures, and continued diligent
    oversight from the Congress. I know this Committee has
    supported us in our high-risk efforts over time, and I think
    GAO can do more, while maintaining its independence, to apply
    additional specifics and encouragement and direction to the
    agencies to fix these very important problems. If we can fix
    these important problems of high-risk areas across the
    government, we can make a significant contribution to a more
    efficient and effective government, save billions of dollars,
    and improve services to the taxpayers.
        I also think GAO needs to remain an important voice,
    advising the Congress on the financial condition of the country
    and its fiscal outlook, and to identify ways to improve
    government to make it more fiscally prudent and sustainable in
    the long run. This involves working with Congress and the
    agencies to reduce billions of dollars in improper payments, to
    identify areas of duplication and overlap that can be
    addressed, to try to identify additional ways to save money and
    to enhance revenues, and very importantly to also continue our
    forensic audit activities to ferret out fraud, waste, and abuse
    in the Federal Government, and to try to successfully tackle
    that and eliminate it.
        In my view, Senators, addressing our long-range fiscal
    outlook in this country is going to involve shared sacrifices
    by many people, and those sacrifices will be more easily borne
    if they know government is running as efficiently and as
    effectively as possible, and they really would rely on GAO to
    continue to do that.
        Now in order to carry out this vision, we need to continue
    to have a first-rate workforce in our organization. We have
    many highly skilled people. We have great capabilities. But we
    need to continue to enhance that to carry out our
    responsibilities in the future.
        I would particularly try to add additional resources in
    technology, science, and engineering because they are very
    important to solving many of our problems in this country,
    going forward. I have been doing that all along, but we need to
    continue to enhance those skills in our organization.
        Plus, we have a new union at GAO. I am pleased that we have
    just reached our first tentative collective bargaining
    agreement that will go to the bargaining unit for ratification
    and approval, and I hope that is completed and I can sign off
    on that by the end of the year.
        We have tremendous people at GAO. I am committed to working
    with our union, our employee groups, and all the people in GAO
    to continue to maintain and enhance its status as one of the
    highest ranked, best places to work in the Federal Government.
        We can make a great organization even better, working
    together, and I will do that, and it will be a hallmark of our
    organization. It is of paramount importance that we have a high
    performing, well-motivated workforce where everybody feels
    respected and treated fairly, and I am committed to making sure
    that happens.
        I would also like to thank this Committee for the support
    that they have given the GAO over the years, particularly your
    unwavering commitment to our high-risk areas and programs. That
    has been very important to us.
        I also want to thank you for reporting out S. 2991, which
    would enhance GAO's access authorities. It would provide a
    legislative remedy to address the Walker v. Cheney situation
    and give us additional access authorities, which we need in
    order to get the information, to do the analysis, to be able to
    provide to the Congress. By and large, we get great cooperation
    from the Executive Branch, but there are cases where we need
    those authorities bolstered by this legislation, and I would
    encourage you to continue to ensure that it be passed,
    hopefully this Congress.
        In closing, I would welcome the opportunity, if confirmed,
    to lead the GAO during this important period in our country's
    history. I pledge to do it with a commitment to our core values
    of accountability, integrity, and reliability and to work with
    my colleagues in GAO to make sure that we remain a strong,
    steadfast, nonpartisan watchdog for the taxpayers, a trusted
    advisor to the Congress, and a leading force in bringing about
    a more effective and efficient government for the benefit of
    all.
        I thank you very much for your time and attention today. I
    would be happy to answer any questions, and thank you again for
    the opportunity to be here.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thank you very much for that excellent
    opening statement.
        I must say, Mr. Dodaro, that I have thought about this
    before in the many times you have testified, and no less today.
    You always seem to have such a command of the material you are
    presenting that you rarely have a text in front of you, which
    is quite unusual. I think I would later like to call your
    children to the witness stand and ask if you remember
    everything they did over their lifetimes, but I will not.
    [Laughter.]
        It is very impressive, it is very unique, and I appreciate
    it. We always feel like you are talking directly to us.
        I am going to start my questioning with the standard
    questions we ask of all nominees. First, is there anything you
    are aware of in your background that might present a conflict
    of interest with the duties of the office to which you have
    been nominated?
        Mr. Dodaro. No.
        Chairman Lieberman. Second, do you know of anything
    personal or otherwise that would in any way prevent you from
    fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the
    office to which you have been nominated?
        Mr. Dodaro. No.
        Chairman Lieberman. And then finally, do you agree without
    reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and
    testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress if
    you are confirmed?
        Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I do.
        Chairman Lieberman. I appreciate your answers.
        I think the first couple of questions that I have really
    pick up from your opening statement.
        I appreciate the fact that you have set a goal for yourself
    to try to reduce the agencies, or alter at least the agencies,
    that appear on the high-risk report list. That is a very
    important document to our Committee that GAO prepares at the
    start of every session of Congress because it does help us
    highlight troubled areas that need more work. But the truth is,
    as you have indicated, there are too many departments and
    agencies that continue to appear there, and that is really not
    acceptable.
        I just want to ask you to go on just a bit more about what
    you as Comptroller General have in mind to help those agencies
    and programs remove a high-risk designation. Is that a case
    where you will try to work more directly with the Executive
    Branch, or to work in combination with us here in Congress, to
    make sure that the agencies know that we are just not going to
    accept them repeatedly appearing on this high-risk list?
        Mr. Dodaro. Yes, Senator, I appreciate the opportunity to
    talk a little bit more about that.
        First of all, I have been involved with the high-risk
    program for many years, and it has been used as a source of
    input for Presidents' management agendas dating back to
    President Clinton through the Bush Administration and now the
    Obama Administration. And what was started during the Bush
    Administration were meetings between GAO, OMB, and the agencies
    on the high-risk list, and they were committed to having a
    corrective action plan.
        Well, what I have suggested, and we have started working
    with now Acting Director Jeff Zients over at OMB, is continuing
    to build upon that set of meetings between GAO, the agencies,
    and OMB. And I agreed to personally be involved in all those
    meetings as long as the deputy secretaries, at a minimum, were
    involved in the meetings. So we have elevated attention within
    the agencies and commitment on the part of the top leadership
    to address these problems.
        We have had dozens of meetings. I will be outreaching
    obviously to the Congress as an integral part of this, not only
    in providing oversight to encourage agencies to do this, but in
    many areas there are legislative remedies that are needed in
    order to fully address the underlying root cause of the high-
    risk problem.
        So I see this as GAO providing sort of a force to bring all
    the proper people together, the Congress and the Executive
    Branch, at a high level, with an increased intensity. These
    meetings have led to more specificity about the problems, more
    suggestions about the solutions, and a sustained attention on
    the problem, and I think all those things will yield important
    outcomes.
        As Senator Akaka knows, he and Senator Voinovich have been
    focused on, for example, the personnel security clearances
    area, and they held another hearing this week on it. That
    attention is bringing about important progress.
        So I think elevating attention in this fashion is a
    constructive role for us. It does not impede our independence.
    We are not going to take anybody off the list until they
    deserve it, but we can provide more impetus for positive
    improvement.
        Chairman Lieberman. I think that is a great priority for
    you to commit yourself to because there is a way that when a
    high-risk report comes out, the agencies on it suffer some bad
    publicity for a day, and then for some of them, unless there is
    a driving follow-up mechanism such as the one you have
    described, it just goes away until the next report.
        We are guilty in that too because the flow of events around
    here take us onto the next piece of legislation or next
    hearing. So I really commend you for that, and I think you will
    produce some results there, and I appreciate it.
        In your questionnaire that you filled out for the Committee
    prior to the hearing, you highlighted an interesting thought,
    which is that you would use ``the unique position of the
    Comptroller General to promote greater financial literacy in
    the United States'' and that you would attempt to enhance the
    emphasis on financial literacy throughout our education system.
    That is a very interesting, different kind of initiative. So
    tell me what you have in mind.
        Mr. Dodaro. First, we are asked to look at the Federal
    Government's activities to promote financial literacy.
    Actually, the Wall Street Reform legislation that just passed
    mandates that GAO conduct a study on effective methods,
    strategies, and technological tools used to improve financial
    literacy and financial education programs. So we have a mandate
    from the Congress to look at this as a starting point.
        Senator Akaka and I have had many discussions about this as
    well.
        And there is a Financial Literacy and Education Commission
    comprised of 20 agencies across the Federal Government, and we
    have reviewed that, pointed out the need for greater strategic
    planning and the resources to be able to do it.
        The new Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection within the
    Federal Reserve, created by the Wall Street Reform Act, will
    also have an Office of Financial Education.
        We have looked at disclosures on mutual fund fees, credit
    cards, bank statements, the Social Security statement that is
    sent to everybody every year, disclosing their Social Security
    status. We have looked at retirement planning activities and
    disclosures on fees there.
        So we have a strong foundation for looking across the
    Federal Government and evaluating its activities to try to
    address financial literacy, and it is going to be very
    important.
        More people are taking on responsibilities for their own
    retirement planning going forward. We certainly saw what can
    happen with inadequate disclosures and understanding of
    different mortgage arrangements that were made and the
    aftermath of the housing situation that led to the recession.
    So I think there is an important need.
        Also, the American Institute of Certified Public
    Accountants (AICPA) has a financial literacy initiative. GAO
    has supported it. And they are working with State and local
    governments and educational institutions.
        I think with the trust and confidence that people have in
    the GAO and in the position of the Comptroller General, we can
    be a constructive force.
        I will also guarantee that whatever we do in this area, I
    will have extensive outreach with the Congress to make sure
    that everybody is comfortable with what we are doing, going
    forward. But I think it can have a lasting impact in our
    country.
        Chairman Lieberman. Yes, I agree. I urge you on in that.
        We all remember that your predecessor, David Walker,
    devoted a lot of time and energy to the so-called fiscal
    crisis, even went on a fiscal wake-up tour around the country.
    And this is a different way, not to go at quite the same
    problem, but it will affect that problem if we can raise
    financial literacy.
        Mr. Dodaro. It will empower people. I think part of this
    can be also education about the financing of the Federal
    Government.
        Chairman Lieberman. Correct.
        Mr. Dodaro. And the issue is to be able to do it and
    addressing it in that fashion.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thanks. My time is up on this round.
    Senator Collins.
        Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Like the Chairman, I want to start off with the high-risk
    list. This has been a valuable tool, but it is also a limited
    tool. It is really troubling to me that half of the original 14
    items on the high-risk list in 1990 remain on the list today.
    It is totally unacceptable for a program to remain a high risk
    for 20 years.
        A contributing factor to this problem is that GAO releases
    the list, Congress may hold a hearing on the issue, we look to
    the departments and to OMB to pay attention and take action,
    but we go away and do not look at the list again until the next
    Congress.
        I would like you to be more specific on how GAO could
    improve the utility of the high-risk list. One of the problems
    that I see with it, for example, is one of the areas that has
    been listed for the last 20 years is the Medicare program.
    Well, that is so huge that it is really not very helpful to
    tell Congress or even the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
    that the Medicare program is high-risk. Probably everyone knows
    that. If GAO drilled down and selected specific aspects that
    make it high-risk, it would be more valuable.
        Mr. Dodaro. Yes, Senator. Let me address that. First, I
    would just say of the 14 areas that were originally on the list
    in 1990, half have come off during that period of time, but you
    are correct; half have remained on, including the Medicare
    area.
        I also would point out that 10 of the 19 that we have put
    on since 1990 have been removed. So progress has been made, but
    on the Medicare point, you are exactly right.
        I would mention a couple of things that we have done over
    time. When it was first put on the list, there was no
    measurement at all of the amount of improper payments being
    made under the Medicare program. People were estimating and
    guessing at the amount of fraud. Now there is a scientific
    statistical method for measuring the amount of improper
    payments.
        We have also pointed out additional opportunities to use
    pre-edit checks, to use more technological tools to prevent
    some payments in the beginning, and to use more diagnostic
    tools to do more medical reviews of the claims. Right now, less
    than 1 percent of the Medicare claims are subject to a
    subsequent review to determine if they are medically necessary.
    So we have a lot more specifics, and we are starting to engage
    in discussions in that area.
        So we can decompose the problem as you articulate, and that
    is what I would like to do. When I say ``greater emphasis,''
    that is exactly what you are talking about--greater
    specificity, greater follow-through, and a clear message that
    we are not going to hold off. We are going to keep pressing
    until these problems get solved.
        Senator Collins. Right, because it should not be a one-shot
    deal----
        Mr. Dodaro. Right.
        Senator Collins [continuing]. At the beginning of each
    Congress, and that is true for us as well as for you.
        One very valuable reorganization that the GAO undertook was
    in 2005 when the Forensic Audit and Special Investigations Unit
    was created. I see the head of the unit in the front row. We
    have worked very closely with that investigative unit,
    including uncovering $1 billion in fraud in the wake of
    Hurricane Katrina, exposing the high risk for fraud and abuse
    in the Energy Star program, identifying misuse of Homeland
    Security grant money, and revealing lax procedures for securing
    a passport.
        Given what I view as the great success of this unit and the
    need for more aggressive oversight in this era of tight
    budgets, are you considering devoting more resources to this
    unit, which is currently very small.
        Mr. Dodaro. I am committed to enhancing the capabilities of
    the unit and to consider adding additional resources, Senator.
    I am very interested. I was involved in helping create the
    unit. It had great success, and we definitely are enhancing the
    tools, and I will do everything I can to try to enhance the
    level of resources there.
        And I would appreciate this Committee's support in helping
    GAO on its resource requests. I know you have in the past, but
    when I became Acting Comptroller General, we were at our lowest
    staffing level in GAO's history overall. And while I have been
    successful in working with the Congress in getting some
    additional resources over the past couple of years, we are
    still at a level of about 3,200 people when we had almost 2,000
    more people earlier.
        But to answer your specific question, yes, the resource
    investment in this group has paid off handsomely and with great
    dividends, and I will consider adding additional resources.
        Senator Collins. I hope you will because if you look at it
    from a cost-benefit ratio, this unit has produced so many
    valuable reports and investigations that have led to reforms
    that have really saved taxpayer dollars.
        Mr. Dodaro. The other thing, Senator, that we have done is
    to integrate that unit with other units, like, for example, the
    work we did for this Committee on the Federal Protective
    Service. They did some testing in the security area.
        Senator Collins. Exactly.
        Mr. Dodaro. So we are looking for integration. That will
    help leverage the resources as well.
        Senator Collins. Let me bring up in this first round a
    criticism of GAO's reports, and that has to do with the
    timeliness of reports, and this is probably directly related to
    resources, and I recognize that. But the pace of congressional
    oversight efforts cannot, at times, wait for months or even
    years for the completion of a GAO report.
        I know that you have to prioritize, that you are
    overwhelmed with requests, and from our perspective, you do a
    good job prioritizing requests from chairmen and ranking
    members, but the timeliness remains a problem. The best report,
    if we get it far after the problem has been allowed to
    languish, does us far less good than a timely report.
        What steps are you going to take to ensure that your
    reports are more timely?
        Mr. Dodaro. There are several things, Senator, that I have
    been and will continue to do to make improvements in this area.
        First would be to get a clear sense of the priorities of
    the committees. As you mentioned, on average for the last
    several years, GAO receives about a thousand requests from the
    Congress. For 3,200 people, that involves making sure we set
    the right priorities, working with the committees. So I plan to
    enhance that by trying to have meetings with the chairmen and
    ranking members to get their priorities for the upcoming
    Congress. I know there is a lot of discussion at the staff
    level, but I think a higher level discussion on the priorities
    would help ensure more timeliness.
        Second, we are looking at different product lines to
    provide more sophisticated briefings. We provide a lot of
    testimony, even on preliminary observations when we have done
    enough work to be able to do it. We also are adding additional
    technologies and tools.
        I am very pleased that also during this period of time, we
    have taken on more responsibilities for the Troubled Asset
    Relief Program, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, and
    now the Wall Street Reform Act, which has 44 mandates for GAO
    to do studies, 17 of which have to be done within a year.
        We also have a new requirement to do an annual report on
    duplication and overlap in the Federal Government.
        But in the last 10 years, we have also turned over our
    workforce in providing for succession planning, over half of
    our senior executives and half of our workforce. So we are
    working on training programs, tools, and techniques. I am
    trying to streamline some of our methodologies and
    administrative processes. I know it is an important area.
        The other thing, Senator, I would point out is that we also
    survey staff and Members of Congress after we issue a report,
    and one of the questions we ask is whether or not the report
    was received on time. Of those people who respond, 95 percent
    say that they have received the report on time. So I am
    watching.
        Timeliness is one of our performance measures, but your
    point is something that is a valid issue. I am aware of it, and
    I will work hard to improve it.
        Senator Collins. Thank you.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Collins. Senator Akaka.
        Senator Akaka. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Dodaro, GAO has extensively studied the implementation
    of the Government Performance and Results Act (GPRA) and has
    found that while GPRA has established a solid foundation for
    improving results, the law has not reached its full potential.
    Do you have recommendations for Congress to improve GPRA?
        Mr. Dodaro. Yes, Senator, I agree with you. It has not yet
    reached its full potential, and there is more that could be
    done. What it has done though is generate more performance
    goals and measures than existed at the time the Act was passed
    in 1993, but they are not being used to their full potential.
        I think there needs to be more discussion with the Congress
    in agreeing on some of the goals, having more oversight, and
    reviewing whether or not the goals have been achieved over a
    period of time.
        The same thing is true for the leadership in the
    departments and the agencies. Particularly when you have
    changes in the top leadership in the departments, there is not
    always continuity over time. The average tenure of a political
    appointee is still roughly around 2 years, and so you need
    continuity over time to measure performance and to take action
    on it. Congress can play an important role.
        Also, the other aspect of the Government Performance and
    Results Act that has never really been implemented fully is the
    governmentwide performance plan. There are more and more
    problems now that require multiple agencies to put forth
    efforts to be able to achieve improvements, and I would
    encourage the Congress to push to have at least a set of cross-
    cutting objectives and performance measures that could be used
    to help address that statutory requirement that is yet
    unfulfilled.
        Senator Akaka. Mr. Dodaro, I want to congratulate GAO and
    the GAO Employees Organization for working together to reach a
    tentative agreement on a master collective bargaining
    agreement, and I am pleased you are looking forward to signing
    it. If confirmed, what specific actions would you take to
    sustain the productive relationship of mutual trust with your
    employees and their representatives?
        Mr. Dodaro. It is very important for me to have mutual
    respect and trust with the GAO workforce. I meet periodically
    with the union leaders in what we call ``pulse check meetings''
    to make sure we are staying on track. I have met with the
    national leaders as well as the leaders of the GAO union.
        I have reestablished employee groups for people not in the
    bargaining unit to provide advice to me.
        We also have created a diversity advisory council to
    provide advice. We have created workforce diversity plans and
    training.
        The GAO people are a great workforce. Everybody is
    committed to the mission of the GAO and to continue to make
    improvements, and the challenge is to make sure that we are
    always open for feedback from our workforce to be able to
    continuously make improvements. And my philosophy is as long as
    there is good faith on all parties, we will continue to make a
    great organization even better.
        Senator Akaka. Mr. Dodaro, I want to commend GAO again for
    achieving the second highest ranking in the recent Best Places
    to Work Survey. Why do you believe GAO is considered one of the
    best places to work, and are there specific policies, such as
    telework, that have had a positive impact on performance and on
    morale?
        Mr. Dodaro. Definitely, Senator. First, I would say one of
    the underlying reasons, basic reasons, is the mission of the
    organization--to make a difference and improve government.
    People come to GAO and they stay because they can make a
    difference, but you need to have a good working environment.
        We have flexible working arrangements with telework. We
    have a daycare facility in the GAO. We provide support for
    student loan repayments. We provide a good education program.
    People like to continuously learn and improve their skills. So
    we try to achieve the best work-life balance, family balance,
    that we can in the environment. So I am always looking for ways
    to hear from our workforce about how to improve it.
        Telework has great potential. When the Congress had to
    leave the buildings during the anthrax attacks, which is the
    first time that the Capitol was evacuated since the War of
    1812, the House of Representatives came to the GAO to conduct
    their business for 2 weeks, and we allowed a great deal of our
    workforce to telework during that period of time.
        And during this latest snowstorm that we had this past
    year, we were able to still issue reports during that period of
    time. So I am a big fan of telework. I think it is a terrific
    tool for the organization, and people respond.
        Senator Akaka. Mr. Dodaro, the Federal Government must deal
    with problems that cut across agencies, yet too often agencies
    do not work together to solve these complex problems. This
    Committee approved legislation that would require the Director
    of OMB to work with agencies to develop and implement plans
    that address long-term Federal Government priority goals that
    cut across agencies. Do you believe there is a need for
    legislative emphasis on issues that involve multiple agencies?
        Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I do, Senator. Things have changed in
    terms of the complexities of problems, and you need to have
    more agencies working collaboratively together. Whether you are
    talking about preparing for a pandemic or you are talking about
    Homeland Security issues, food safety, or modernizing
    disability programs, multiple agencies are involved, and there
    are not really always very good, well-functioning mechanisms to
    do that.
        Legislative initiatives to further those goals are
    important. I think, longer term, there needs to be some
    additional discussion about how best to organize government to
    take on some of these challenges. But in the short term,
    legislation from the Congress would be very important to help
    spur that on.
        Senator Akaka. Thank you very much for your responses.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Akaka.
        I just have one or two more questions. This one is a
    general question which will perhaps take you into an area that
    we normally rely on the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) for,
    but I wanted to get your reaction to it, which is whether GAO,
    in its policy reviews and audits, should take on the
    responsibility of informing Congress when you and your staff
    conclude that a legislative mandate that we put on an agency is
    either very difficult to achieve or too costly, perhaps even
    prohibitively costly.
        We are in a time when we are looking for every possible way
    we can begin to fulfill our responsibilities to the public, but
    do it in a more efficient way or with the aim of trying to
    eliminate the Federal debt. So what would you think about that
    added GAO responsibility?
        Mr. Dodaro. Senator, I have been involved in a number of
    discussions over time about a GAO role in assessing the
    programmatic and managerial challenges and feasibility of
    proposed legislation, and in regulatory issues as well. My view
    is GAO has a lot of potential to add in a lot of different
    areas, but unless it comes with additional resources, all we
    are going to do is exacerbate the already existing problem that
    Senator Collins pointed out, which is that we cannot do more
    work unless we have more resources without sacrificing the
    quality of what we do.
        I will never sacrifice the quality of GAO work, either for
    expediency or for other purposes. It does not serve the
    Congress well, it does not serve the American people well, and
    it does not reflect well on GAO. So quality is very important.
    We have our reputation that we built up over a period of time.
    That could be lost very quickly without a commitment to
    quality.
        But going back to your point, I certainly think we could do
    more, but we need more resources to be able to do that.
        Chairman Lieberman. Let us continue that conversation
    because I think since you are into the agency so often on
    audits--I understand it takes more work--it could be a real
    value added for Congress and for the taxpayers.
        The final question is a personnel-related matter. It is
    interesting that GAO has implemented performance-based
    compensation. And I wonder if you could describe it a bit, how
    it is working, and whether it is going to be permanent or
    whether it is a model for other parts of the Federal
    Government.
        Mr. Dodaro. Well, in the personnel performance-based
    compensation area, I would say, like a lot of organizations, we
    have had our ups and downs with it, and actually
    dissatisfaction with some of our approaches led to the
    formation of our union. So one of the things I did as Acting
    Comptroller General is work with the Congress to get
    legislation to provide a floor guarantee for our organization.
        I think the most difficult part of this in the Federal
    Government, Mr. Chairman, is to have a system that not only
    rewards individual people for what they do, but promotes
    teamwork. And it promotes organizational goals as well, so
    people work together and feel like they are rewarded properly,
    and you have the right type of incentives, and there is a
    fairness and equity.
        Now I have commissioned a top-to-bottom study of our
    performance management system. People in GAO are not satisfied
    with it. And we just hired a contractor. We are working with
    the union, working with the employee groups, and we are going
    to come up with a new system.
        And I am pledging that we are going to work cooperatively.
    It is going to be something that we gain as much consensus as
    possible from our employees because unless they believe in it,
    they will not believe it is adequate and fair.
        And we are also going to focus on it in the context of
    trying to improve performance and improve people in a
    constructive way and not have just sort of a one-time kind of
    an assessment.
        I will report back to you. My goal is to come up with
    something that is a model, that could be done in a collective
    bargaining agreement and could be useful to others. Right now,
    we are not there yet.
        Chairman Lieberman. Interesting. So you are committed to
    the principle or the policy of performance-based compensation,
    but you are trying now to work with the consultant and the new
    union to see if you can do it in a way that the employees will
    accept.
        Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I think it is pivotal to have the
    underlying mechanism that you use to make decisions to pay
    people based on performance to have credibility. Then you can
    do more with it if you have that buy-in and commitment.
        Chairman Lieberman. Just briefly, what were the one or two
    top gripes or, to be more senatorial, sources of
    dissatisfaction of the employees? [Laughter.]
        Mr. Dodaro. Too complex. Not equitably administered across
    a period of time. Not enough transparency.
        So our goal is greater simplicity, greater focus on
    improvement in a constructive fashion, and a system that has
    more transparency and equity.
        Chairman Lieberman. Good. Keep us posted on that. Senator
    Collins.
        Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Just to follow up on that issue, I am a little concerned as
    I have listened to your approach. Certainly in order to have an
    effective pay-for-performance program, you do need to have
    credibility, and you also need to have very good training so
    that managers apply it fairly.
        But I hope you are not saying that you are backing away
    from the principle of pay for performance. I think we need to
    extend that principle throughout the Federal Government, and I
    hope that your reaction to the employees' dissatisfaction and
    decision to recognize a union is not to back away from a merit-
    based system.
        Mr. Dodaro. By no means, Senator Collins. By no means, but
    I want one that everybody agrees with.
        Senator Collins. But that is unlikely to ever happen in a
    merit-based system.
        Mr. Dodaro. Right, but you need to have a core of consensus
    to be able to do it, and I may not be able to achieve it.
        I am an optimistic person by nature, and I am committed and
    dedicated to try to do that, but by no means am I backing away
    from pay for performance. Our people want it. They expect it.
    And I want to do it in a manner where it is not only a good
    system, but we have the proper training and the proper
    safeguards in place where everybody feels equitably treated.
        Senator Collins. Let me switch to a different role that GAO
    plays that I think a lot of the public is not aware of, and
    that is the bid protest process where GAO provides a vital
    forum for resolving government contracting disputes and
    ensuring that the applicable laws and regulations are followed.
        In the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year
    2008, there were provisions expanding the protest rights for
    the award of task and delivery orders valued at more than $10
    million. Our concern was we were seeing more and more of these
    indefinite quantity, indefinite time contracts under which
    there were task and delivery orders that end up being valued at
    a lot of money. So that provision expanding those protest
    rights expires in May of next year. Do you support extending
    the sunset date for that provision so that GAO could continue
    to hear cases involving bid protests of task and delivery
    orders?
        Mr. Dodaro. We are in the process of reassessing that
    issue. I think it makes sense to extend the provision.
        What I am concerned about is, again, the resources. We
    absorbed that responsibility within the existing resources, and
    I will provide input to this Committee and other committees on
    what our needs may be if that is extended going forward, but we
    certainly think that it has proven to be a valuable addition.
        Senator Collins. Let me just ask one final question. I may
    have a few more for the record, but I know, as you pointed out,
    you have probably answered hundreds already.
        But that has to do with information technology. It is
    really disturbing to look across the Federal Government and see
    billions of dollars that have been wasted on failed information
    technology (IT) projects, whether it is at the Federal Bureau
    of Investigation or the Census Bureau, almost anywhere that you
    look.
        GAO has provided guidance to improve the Administration's
    Office of E-Government as it developed new initiatives such as
    the IT Dashboard and TechStat sessions. This consultative role
    is unique for GAO, as it is outside the traditional audit or
    investigative role. How has that worked from GAO's perspective?
        Mr. Dodaro. Well, we value and always preserve our
    independence, but there is a great degree of room there for us
    to provide that type of assistance. And actually that is one of
    the things that I have been involved with for a long period of
    time. During the Year 2000 (Y2K) scenario, we provided
    guidance, which then got adopted by the Executive Branch in
    order to prepare properly. We did best practices research that
    led to the establishment of Clinger-Cohen legislation. We have
    just put out a cost estimating----
        Senator Collins. Cohen-Clinger, in Maine. [Laughter.]
        Mr. Dodaro. Oh, I am sorry. Excuse me, Senator.
        Senator Collins. That is all right. I will let it go.
        Mr. Dodaro. Actually, we worked closely with Senator
    William Cohen on that. In fact, he hosted a 10-year celebration
    of the passage of that legislation, which I attended.
        But to go back to the issue, we have just developed a cost
    estimating guide with input from people across government on
    experts, and now it is posted, and I am trying to get the
    Executive Branch to implement it on a consistent basis. We are
    going to develop one on scheduling.
        So GAO can, must, and will provide additional guidance,
    support, encouragement, and consultation to improve programs
    and address problems. That is part of the philosophy I have on
    trying to address these high-risk problems as well.
        Senator Collins. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thank you very much, Senator Collins.
    Senator Akaka.
        Senator Akaka. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I have just one final question to ask, and that comes after
    the Chairman raised the question of financial literacy. It made
    me curious about what you are doing with it. I am pleased that
    you plan to make promoting financial literacy in the United
    States a priority as Comptroller General. I would like you to
    discuss why you believe that this issue is important enough to
    warrant the attention of the Comptroller General and GAO?
        Mr. Dodaro. I think, Senator, that there is increased
    complexity of financial products going forward that the people
    have to be prepared to address, whether we are talking about
    the mortgages or investment strategies. In the retirement area,
    in the move from defined benefit to defined contribution plans,
    people are having to manage their retirement accounts more on
    their own. There is increased complexity in terms of the
    available investment decisions to do that. Disclosures are not
    always clear.
        I think that it is an important role as the government
    provides advice and assistance to help empower people to make
    good decisions, whether it be on health care, education, etc.,
    and that financial literacy is a very important part of that
    responsibility. As I mentioned earlier, we will be evaluating
    many of the Federal Government's efforts to be able to do that.
        But I also think GAO has an important advantage with the
    15-year term of the Comptroller General to be able to do
    something that is going to span a period of time to increase
    the capacity. We have the convening power to work with the
    private sector, to work with State and local governments, and
    to work with educational organizations to help support the
    government's efforts and objectives, which are stated
    objectives of the Federal Government.
        So I feel very strongly about this. I will always consult
    with the Congress on how we are going to do this approach, and
    I look forward to your support. I know you are a big supporter
    of this, and other support from the Congress would help us in
    our endeavors to help others.
        Senator Akaka. Thank you very much for your response.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thank you, Senator Akaka. Senator
    Carper, welcome. Glad you are here.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER

        Senator Carper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am happy to be
    here. It is nice to see you and our colleagues.
        Mr. Dodaro, welcome.
        I am going to ask a couple of questions. I think at least
    one has already been asked, but I just want to ask it again for
    the record. Why is it when you speak or provide testimony you
    never use notes? [Laughter.]
        Mr. Dodaro. I believe it is important to talk directly to
    the Members of Congress and engage in a conversation and a
    dialogue, Senator.
        Senator Carper. Why is it when you answer our questions,
    you never use notes? [Laughter.]
        Mr. Dodaro. For the same reason, Senator. I also always
    remember your comment about Winston Churchill, and I am not
    there yet either.
        Senator Carper. You had a lot of comments in your
    repertoire---- [Laughter.]
        Why is it there is usually somebody either over your left
    or your right shoulder that whenever you speak I can see their
    lips move? [Laughter.]
        Mr. Dodaro. Today, it is my 2-year-old grandson, and he is
    providing my----
        Senator Carper. He is good.
        We are glad you are here. I understand your wife--is it
    Joan?
        Mr. Dodaro. Yes, Joan.
        Senator Carper. Over your left shoulder. Joan, how are you?
        Thank you for sharing this guy with us and letting him go
    through this job interview with all of us.
        I have a more serious question if I could. I think it is
    this year, maybe early next year, that we mark an anniversary
    that most people have no idea is coming, or has come, and that
    is the 20th anniversary of the creation of the Chief Financial
    Officers Act. And I just want you to talk to us a little bit
    today about the potential that was maybe envisioned when that
    legislation was adopted 20 years ago and where you think that
    potential has been realized and maybe where it has not.
        Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I would be happy to. I have been involved
    in that for a number of years.
        Senator Carper. Have a lot of other people already asked
    that question?
        Mr. Dodaro. No.
        Senator Carper. I am surprised.
        Mr. Dodaro. But I am ready for it. [Laughter.]
        That legislation was a big priority for Comptroller General
    Charles Bowsher at the time, and it took us almost a decade to
    convince Congress to pass that legislation, which was then
    expanded in 1994 to create financial statements and audits
    across the Federal Government. It was important to establish
    chief financial officers and deputy chief financial officers
    with set qualifications in the statute to provide the necessary
    leadership in those areas.
        The Federal Government was the last sector of our economy
    to use and prepare financial statements and have them audited
    even though they required them of State and local governments,
    as you know as a former governor, in order to receive revenue-
    sharing money. And we have had financial audits of publically
    traded companies for a long time. It was to provide more
    reliable cost information.
        We went from a situation where in 1994, 6 out of the 24
    largest departments and agencies were able to get a clean audit
    opinion. Now it is 20 out of 24.
        Senator Carper. Who are the outliers? Can you help us with
    that?
        Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
        Senator Carper. The Department of Defense (DOD)?
        Mr. Dodaro. DOD, the Department of Homeland Security, the
    State Department, and the National Aeronautics and Space
    Administration (NASA), I think, are the ones that I remember
    off-hand. I am not sure of the last two; I will correct the
    record if I need to on that.
        Senator Carper. Thanks.
        Mr. Dodaro. And it was to lead to more reliable information
    for day-to-day decisionmaking and to provide better cost
    information.
        So there has been a lot of progress in that area, but it
    has not reached its full potential yet. I think that more now
    than ever we need to have more reliable data to manage the cost
    of the government and to be able to assess programs and
    policies. A lot of times we focus on the outcomes, but we do
    not focus on what it costs to achieve the level of an outcome,
    and that is because we rarely have very good information to be
    able to do that.
        So I think the Chief Financial Officers Act, the Cohen-
    Clinger Act, and Chief Information Officers----
        Senator Carper. You said Cohen-Collins? [Laughter.]
        Mr. Dodaro. I was attempting to get the right order in the
    Senate this time with Cohen-Clinger.
        But those were all very important----the Government
    Performance and Results Act--were all good management tools
    that were put in place in the 1990s. I do not think any of them
    have reached their full potential yet.
        Senator Carper. Let me just interrupt you. Any ideas as to
    what we can do in the Legislative Branch here to better ensure
    that we reach the potential that was envisioned?
        Mr. Dodaro. I think there is no substitute for regular
    congressional oversight and sustained attention to problems,
    starting with the high-risk areas. Congress has an important
    role to play and needs to play that role. So I would encourage
    you to have as much oversight on these issues as possible, and
    I will support you and others on that.
        Senator Carper. I do not know if the questions were any
    good, but I think those are really good answers, and I think
    the answers are very helpful, certainly to me, and I hope to
    our colleagues.
        I do have one more question if I could, Mr. Chairman.
        As you know, I am privileged to chair a subcommittee. It
    may have the longest name of any subcommittee in the Senate.
    When I describe it at home, I say it is a subcommittee that
    enables us to look in a lot of different corners in the
    government and to try to make sure we are spending money in a
    cost-effective way.
        Having a little subcommittee with eight or nine members, it
    is hard to really do any kind of realistic job in overseeing
    Federal spending. It is hard to do with the full committee,
    even with all the staff and good people we have on the
    Committee. But one of the things we have sought to do is to
    partner with others who have a similar goal--that is, cost-
    effective spending of the taxpayers' money.
        I have never seen this happen before. [Laughter.]
        Mr. Dodaro. They are enabling me to correct the record in
    real time on the four outliers. In 2009--actually, I was
    correct--DOD, DHS, NASA, and State. In 2010, it is DOD, DHS,
    Department of Labor, and NASA having a qualified opinion.
        Senator Carper. Thanks a lot.
        We have our Committee. We have GAO who has primary
    responsibility to make sure we spend money cost effectively.
    OMB has an interest in that, and all the inspectors general
    from all the different agencies. There is great interest in
    doing this. CBO probably has a real interest in doing this.
    There are a bunch of nonprofit organizations that are
    interested in reducing waste.
        For us, in terms of leveraging the effectiveness of a
    committee or a subcommittee, I think a good idea is to partner
    with all of these agencies. And we have been partnering so well
    that we brought the deficit down I think for the last fiscal
    year to just under $1.3 trillion and the year before that, $1.4
    trillion, which suggests that we can do better.
        How do you think we could do better to improve on this
    partnership with an eye toward results?
        That is my last question, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Dodaro. I mentioned earlier, Senator Carper, I think
    that the high-risk list that we have created really highlights
    appropriate areas to focus on. I want to make that a priority
    for me during my tenure. I think partnerships would be good to
    be able to address those problems, to get more specific, and to
    really work collaboratively.
        You know the inspectors general, by statute, have to list
    management challenges in their departments and agencies. They
    overlap with some of the high-risk areas. They have insights.
    Some of them, like the Medicaid program, involve State and
    local auditors. I have tried to partner with them as well. So I
    think there is a lot of room for partnerships in that area that
    have already demonstrated big problems that would have big
    payoffs.
        Senator Carper. Thanks so much.
        Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
        Senator Carper. And thank you for your willingness to do
    this. Thank you for your stewardship.
        And for those who support you, including your wife, our
    thanks to you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Carper.
        Before we close the hearing, I wanted to thank you for
    Monica Anatalio, who is a GAO detailee to our Committee in the
    area of oversight of government contracting. Our normal person
    on that is off on maternity leave. And it is a really important
    function we have, and she has done excellent work in helping
    us. So I appreciate that.
        I want to thank you for your appearance before the
    Committee today and for all that you have done in GAO over the
    years. You are the perfect person for this position right now.
    We are going to try to move you through as quickly as we can
    and obviously hope to get you confirmed before this so-called
    lame-duck session ends.
        Senator Collins.
        Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Usually at this point in the hearing, Mr. Chairman, I
    announce whether I am inclined to support the nominee or not.
    In this case, since both you and I recommended the nominee, it
    kind of takes the suspense out of these final moments.
    [Laughter.]
        So let me just conclude by saying that I look forward to
    working with the nominee as we go forward. Thank you.
        Chairman Lieberman. Thank you, Senator Collins.
        Without objection, the record will be kept open until noon
    tomorrow for the submission of any written questions or
    statements for the record.
        Mr. Dodaro, would you like to say anything in closing?
        Mr. Dodaro. I would just like to thank you and Senator
    Collins for your support all along. I look forward to working
    with you. I am committed to fulfilling our responsibilities as
    a watchdog, protecting the taxpayers' interests, and improving
    government. I will do everything in my power to lead this
    organization successfully.
        Chairman Lieberman. I know you will. Thank you.
        The hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 4:23 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

                                A P P E N D I X

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